And now the strategic encirclement of Pakistan

January 15, 2009

An Indian military presence in Afghanistan to put further pressure on Pakistan? That would be the red  rag for Pakistan, and the end of its long struggle to seek strategic depth  in Afghanistan against its much larger eastern neighbour.

Indian newspapers have reported army chief General Deepak Kapoor as saying at a news conference that such a move would squeeze Pakistan, although he seemed to be at considerable pains to stress this  was a decision that India’s politicians had to take.

Kapoor said New Delhi’s efforts in Afghanistan, which themselves have aroused suspicion in Islamabad, were confined to reconstruction so far. It was up to the Indian government to decide whether the option to “strategically squeeze” Pakistan from both sides by placing a division or so of Indian soldiers in Afghanistan should be considered.

“We are only assisting Afghanistan in its reconstruction efforts at present. The political leadership will have to take a decision if something more is required,” the general said, according to the Times of  India.

The Hindustan Times quoted him thus: “Changing our strategic policy towards Kabul in terms of raising military stakes is one of the factors that is to be determined politically.” 

Kapoor’s remarks, however carefully phrased, are unlikely to go unnoticed in the strategic establishments. Is it feasible or is this a part of a tense psychological battle that New Delhi has mounted against Pakistan following the Mumbai attacks?

You could argue several reasons why an Indian military presence in Afghanistan is most unlikely beginning from the fact this further complicates a messy battlefield where America is doing all it can to get everyone, but especially the Pakistanis, to focus on the hunt for al Qaeda and the Taliban. Then, how do you justify sending troops to another country, even if it is Afghanistan? Would they be part of the U.S.-led coalition or would they operate independently? Is it even feasible from a military point of view?

Perhaps the idea is to force Pakistan to blink by threatening to squeeze it militarily, on top of a diplomatic encirclement as pointed out in a previous post on this blog.

On Thursday, Pakistan said security forces had closed five training camps run by Lashkar-e-Taiba, the group blamed for the Mumbai attack, and arrested 124 of its leaders and those of a related charity. So it doesn’t look like the heat is off, even if there is considerably less talk of conflict

[Reuters pictures of the Taj hotel, Mumbai and an Afghan woman with her son on a Kabul street]

181 comments

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Sanjeev
Pakistan has been a US ally for 50 years, we are very well aware that US friendship comes at a cost. US have relations with other countries on its merit. I am saying this because as civil nuclear technology was provided to India now the US requires India to make contribution. First, to do dirty work in Afghanistan where terrain is harsh and conditions are tough. India is being asked to put in military resources and manpower, just like Pakistan was asked to cooperate. It costed Pakistan 8000+ Army casualties and an unpopular war. India will fall into the same trap, it should resist the temptation of Pakistan’s strategic encirlcement. Even today, strategically Pakistan is more important to US than India.
Again, I would say, Pakistan is well aware of the power game in the region and can outmanouver Indian efforts of strategic encirclement. ISI has a seperate Indo/Afghan wing dealing with such scenarios. I am sure ISI is a step ahead in its strategic planning to neutralize such a threat. The Soviet occupation of Afghanistan and Pakistan’s proxy war against them funded, armed and planned in Pakistan and fought in Afghanistan should be a lesson for India. India is better of not venturing into such a quagmire. Pakistan will still have nothing to loose, with more vigilance and smart moves, Pakistan is well placed.
One last thing about Pakistan’s quest of strategic depth, the ground realities have changed. Since Pakistan is a nuclear power, gaining strategic depth is not that important. Once it was a priority, but in today’s environment it is not much relevant as Pakistan nuclear capability is already significant detterent.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

The Indians can send who ever they like firstly they will have to deal with the Brave Pashtuns Talibans. If any survive then they face the Pak army which are No match for the Indian cowards. Imagine ten kids could hold India hostage for over 3 days what would the SSG commandoes make of the indians.

India is already causing trouble for Pakistan via Afghnistan long time ago and this is FACT. But now they want to threaten us by making dummy statemtns. We are awake and we know the indian cowards want to sit on afghans back and attack Pakistan. Good luck I say to the indians with their Northern alliance partners!

Posted by Hussain | Report as abusive

Pakistan army fully prepared to meet the challenges
BUSINESS RECORDER

RAWALPINDI (updated on: January 15, 2009, 19:32 PST): The Chief of Army Staff, General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani said that Pakistan army is fully prepared to meet the challenges. He further emphasized that the threat could best be defeated through a comprehensive national effort.

According to ISPR press release, the 62nd Formation Commanders’ Conference chaired by the Chief of Army Staff (COAS), General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani was held today at General Headquarters.

The Conference was attended by Corps Commanders, Principal Staff Officers and Formation Commanders.

The participants were given a comprehensive briefing on prevailing security environment.

The Chief of Army Staff expressed satisfaction on the efforts under taken by the military commanders for training and operational preparedness. He reaffirmed that the spirit of sacrifice and high morale of troops is reassuring for the defence of the country.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

One sees that Punjabi Pakistanis are the most beligerent in a conflict like situation in the subcontinent. Being the preponderent province in the country population-wise it is assumed that Pakistani policy which is at its jingoistic best when it comes to relations with India, is reflective of the Punjabi Mussalmans’ psyche.

Yet it is a wonder why a border province which is likely to suffer most in any war conventional or nuclear should indulge in this belicosity. Has this got to do something with the history of the Raj when the Punjabi Mussalman (then called P.M.) had undoubted preference over all other native groups when it came to army recruitment(with the exception of Sikhs and Gurkhas who were prefered over the P.M.)which, over a period built a sense of superiority into the P.M.’s psyche.

Like it is said, in the world you must be an anglosaxon to be considered a A grade world citizen, similarly it appears that being a Punjabi Mussalman is the only true qualification of being a Pakistani.

Even Parvez Musharraf who is a Mohajir from Delhi has to speak Urdu with a Punjabi accent to show that he is a true Pakistani.

The solution lies in decimating the stranglehold of the Punjabi Mussalman over Pakistan’s polity and diplomacy.
As one has said before neither the Sindhis, nor the Baloch or the Pathans ever wanted war with India. It is always the Punjabi Mussalman dominated Pakistani army which has dragged Pakistan into wars. The Pakistani army is known for behaving like a defeated pehlwan dreaming of some day beating the guy that chitt-karaoed him in the last fight.

Pakistan should become part of Afghanistan. That way they can survive modern times.

Posted by Napak Istan | Report as abusive

Sanjeev

—India must ‘Offer’ it’s services, which even if favourable for NATO, cannot be accepted by the US, the Vajpayee gesture for support during 9/11 has already reaped benefits, but this gesture even if accepted would be favourable for India in the longterm, strategically…& would push Pakistan on the back-foot..

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

what is wrong with you people…why cant the middle east stop fighting…all in the name of Gawd…I dont understand what is wrong with you people…stop fighting start working and living with the things that make us all different…and maybe just maybe you can get out of your mud huts…you people think you are so brave yet you let your people die everyday because your gawd tells you too…does that make sence…WOW!!!!please wake up

Posted by joe blow | Report as abusive

Well, I have to say that Pakistan has always been a highly dependent state, which is now on brink of becoming a failed state. I agree with Umair sentence suggesting that ‘Pakistan will still have nothing to loose’ and that truly reflects the current situation, as Pakistan really does not have anything to loose. A wise man once said-‘Beware of those who have nothing to loose’. Pakistan has lost whatever they had to Jihadis, who have exploited the innocent unadulterated minds of their citizens and turned them into soldiers of war!

I personally believe that opening up a front from Afghan border while surgically eliminating targets in POK would significantly enhance India’s position. As far as ISI being a step ahead, I think that is pure wishful thinking. Without US support, which Pakistan has traditionally enjoyed ISI or Pak Army will not even have spares to send their battle tank and fighter jets to the battle field neither will they have any intelligence of what’s coming next! As far a threatening with Nukes are concerned, well though I have no doubt that I will be not be the first to engage in nuclear warfare, but any adventure from Pak military would lead to Pakistan’s total annihilation. Which BTW, will be actively supported by all other nations, as they’d be glad to see this issue be dealt with once and for all.

That being said, I am not a war monger. The cost of war is significantly higher that what is really needed to improve the lives of the people, who are living such miserable lives, that they have no motivation to live or lead a happy and a peaceful life. If India, Pak, US, UK and all other nations put their resources together, they can eliminate this menace without shedding any blood whatsoever or further escalating the hatred that is diving the world!

Posted by Manoj | Report as abusive

Pakistan is no friend of the United States. The US is balancing a policy that needs Pakistan support to supply troops in Afghanistan and knowledge that Pakistan’s domestic policy actively supports terrorism. The US policy is beginning to change with a new US administration. New supply routs are coming on line in Afghanistan and since Mumbai India is actively seeking a role in the reconstruction effort. This will also mean Indian troops in Afghanistan. As a result of this policy change this will mean that the US will no longer need to handle Pakistan with kid gloves, so when attacks originate from within Pakistan, the US will be able to act more freely. Pakistan’s effort is trying to hide it’s involvement in the Mumbai attacks has only accelerated this change

Posted by Chuck | Report as abusive

Slight correction in my earlier post:

As far a threatening with Nukes are concerned, well though I have no doubt that India will be not be the first to engage in nuclear warfare, but any adventure from Pak military would lead to Pakistan’s total annihilation.

Posted by Manoj | Report as abusive

well , now we can see the reason y us is coming very close to india. most indians would have been thinking y US is so kind with them. they have got there answer for sure, both india and pakistan are very very stupid, they r playing in the hands of super powers. world powers r using them against each other for their own interests and when their interests r over they threw them like a used tissue paper. india should note whats been happening with pakistan after becoming ally of america in so called war on terror. indians should never think that US and west r in favour of india as a developed nation. they should sit with pakistan and try to sort out problems with pakistan rather than shouting in front of US and west. if anyone would have noted recent incident of mumbai attack, india has tried their best to persuade their so called friends (US and West) but those friends could not not do anything to help india. today even british FM has said that terrorists should be trialed in pakistan which is totally against indian demand which was to hand over millitants to india. pakistan should seriously help india and do every possible thing to bring terrorists into justice. pakistan should wake up now and stand with india against terror rather than standing with US. india and pakistan can both become great countries by sorting out their problems. as long as india and pakistan will consider each other as enemies , they cant help their own people……..

Posted by love4all | Report as abusive

Indian troops in Afghanistan can present a beautiful mix of problems to already breaking pakistan. Obviously Pakistani army cannot dare to enter afghanistan (or any other country), there are internal pressures. They can only plan terrorist attacks instead. Even today pakistan claims they had arrested 124 people in connection to Mumbai attacks where d hell these people come from. From the very first day pakistani media and its leaders were saying that India planned attacks on Mumbai. Now what does these people have to say now.

Pakistan was so jealous of the presence of Indian companies in Afghanistan that they had to plan a terrorist attack on indian embassy. What will they do if there is a divison of indian army there. Probably they will blow themselves in hate. Clear indication pakistan dont want peace in this region.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/01/world/ asia/01pstan.html?hp

Linked above is a mainstream media article not some XZY news. I know I will be getting some vulgar remarks on this comment. Please fellows dont target me, i am not the one who controls New york times.

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive

After the Mumbai attacks the only country to suffer is Pakistan and to some point they should be answerable to some hard questions. However since any person without a biased mind already acknowlesges that Pakistan has lost out, why would they want to be involved in anyway in this hidous incident?

I think There were bigger motives for these attacks and the title of this report is part of that answer. The world and sepcialy idiots can NOT see a Muslim country to be Nuclear Power. They want all of them to be on their knees with the grace of GOd Pakistan is strong even with so much going on because the people of Pakistan are strong.

Everytime there is war with India the same jazba of azadi runs through our blood and that jazba has not enabled indias filthy dream to become a reality and inshala it never will.

Posted by Ali | Report as abusive

Pakistan’s desire for strategic depth required a control of Afghanistan, through its taliban. Now the snake has bitten its master, Pakistan has not only lost influence over Afghanistan, it is also fighting to control FATA, NWFP and Baluchistan. I do not think India needs to do anything to encircle Pakistan. Indian Air Force bases are present in Central Asia, within easy striking range of Pakistan’s western cities. Having a friendly government in Afghanistan, will be helpful, to keep the Pakistan army busy on its Western Front and also pshycologically tormented with lack of strategic depth.

Posted by Jerry | Report as abusive

hi,
Pakistan divert all its resources prevent its demise rather then looking into Indo-Afghan relation. BTW as far as brave Pashtun Talibans are considered they are really brave and they will definitely get their long desired ‘PAKHTUNISTAN’ and so will the Baloch’s. Another thing if Pakistan is so smart then why has it been fooled again and again by the US.

Posted by Pritash Chaudry | Report as abusive

India, as the Largest Responsible Nuclear Democracy of over a billion people, with the largest democratic Muslim population in South Asia and a proud strategic defence ally of the beacon of freedom, the USA, must help the US help the people of Afghanistan (Ghandhar Desh) with which India has had historical mutual relation going back 5,000 years.

The people of Pakistan will fully understand why India is in Afghanistan and (a)passively support reality on the ground or (b) die fighting on the imaginery Durrand line for another lost cause as in East Pakistan, now Bangladesh.

I think the time is right for India to extend their hand of friendship (Ladu Diplomacy) to the Afghans for peace and development, not withstanding Pakistan’s misuse of a similar opportunity and instead them banking on jihad against India, again banking on the west tacitly supporting their organized terrorism, which history once again will record was a utter policy failure. After 9/11, the west (EU and US) want no part of jihadi barbarism – killing innocent civilians in the name of anything like cowards, instead of fighting armed forces like brave men. Pakistan is increasingly finding itself isolated by the real world including their “all weather friend China”. Lets hope for peace, for the sake of the people of Pakistan and India, but if all fails always be ready for war with Pakistan, just like Israel.

The strategic move of sending about 120000 Indian army men in to Afghan border of pakistan is desirable to Indian army or a large public..but diplomacy as told by Indian general is key to make such moves from indian side as the Indian strategic planners and political leaders who consult them do not agree for such a move as there are 3 reasons for not making such a move.

1.) Indian law framed in 1948 restricts any diploment of Indian national army for affenssive roles in foreign land other than for peace keeping purpose.- this is the reason why india has not deployed its core military other than around 1000 people of Indo-Tibet border police in afghanistan. The recent visit of afghanistan karzai is believed to bring back this idea of diploying Indian striking forces on table after Biden from US requested him to hold talks with Indian leadership.

2.) The strategic planners of India has a reason especially after mumbai attacks – the danger for India is largely from the POK region of pakistan and not from NWFP / FATA or peshawar for that matter.. and the Idea of diploying Indian men for affessive against Taliban/Alqueda which are so far not a threat to India could be non-productive..the last thing we want in India is making new enemies.

3.) The political leadership would be concerned that with sucha move there are 2 possible undesirable possibilities..

a.) Pakistan may see this move as a threat and take undesirable / unpredictable militray affessive and this will be like giving chance to pakistan army who calls Taliban and alqueda as patriotic to merge in to one single force in open. And the chance to democracy in pakistan/diplomacy with pakistan could simply vanish when army takes over if they feel threatened.

b.) When India dilutes it army presence in its eastern border with china to make this move and China if not diplomatically contained(which is very difficult given that they dont care as they dont have any good friendly countries whom they respect!!) could see this move as a chance to capitalize on Indian border areas.

Posted by Anitha | Report as abusive

Some of these Pakistani’s think they all are supermen. They do not remember the history. What happened when there 91,000 supermen surrendered to Indian Army in then East Pakistan. They also forget the territories India Captured in the western frontier and then given back. Go and get an education. Send the girls also to school instead of throwing Acid on them. Stop gang raping a rape victims. It is no their fault. Your country is no match for India that proven all along the history. If you want to go back to the rotten age of Islamic glory, it is up to you. Don’t expect others to follow.

Posted by Vinod | Report as abusive

Another fact which makes such a move a bit more difficult for India is when the Army establishment and BJP leader L.K Advani (who is from Sindh region now in pakistan) wants sucha move to break away Sindh and Baluchistan and make then free from pakistans occupation… our beloved prime minister is stronlgy against and do not believe in any such ideas. So it requires Sonia to take a stance like Indira gandhi during liberation of Bangladesh to make herself a place in History of South Asia.

Posted by Anitha | Report as abusive

Aii,
How can you say the only country to suffer after the Mumbai attacks is Pakistan, last i looked Mumbai is in India and only 10 Pakistanis lost their lives(the 10 attackers). That is what happens when you have a country that controls the news media and keep it’s population mired in events that happened 1000 years ago. The rest of the world would not care if Pakistan is a nuclear country except for the fact that it is a undeveloped uneducated county unable to handle the responsibility of nuclear weapons. Pakistan is a country living in the past and unable to handle what the future brings. Freedom, equality and tolerance, all things that Pakistan fears.

Posted by Chuck | Report as abusive

Come on guys,
The debate goes on and on, unless something is done.
We need not send any troops anywhere, Pakistan by itself getting sucked up by Taliban and losing its territory to them, then why would we bother?

As far the nukes going into wrong hands, I’m still at doubt Pakistan gentlemen are so kind to US that they can sell off to US for few dollars more…

Nothing is transparent in Pakistan except Terrorism. God forbid we do not witness something called as “Terroristan” in future.

I guess instead of War with Pakistan, all we (India & Afghanistan) must do is to safeguard our borders avoiding the refugees from that nation, as they are heading towards endless battle, what to say coiling themselves.


“Everytime there is war with India the same jazba of azadi runs through our blood and that jazba has not enabled indias filthy dream to become a reality and inshala it never will.”

Well the jazba went to take rest in the history.. And if the War really breaks, don’t worry The Red Cross and UN will send some Blood Pressure pills as an aid.
Another fact is India stopped dreaming long time ago, we are the reality, and you guys know it so instead of having a eye ball to eye ball, you’re creating a proxy.

Posted by Indian | Report as abusive

How would these Indian troops be supplied while they are in Afghanistan, how will the Indian govt foot the bill for their deployment and would they even remotely be any sort of threat to Pakistan?

I think the security establishment can safely dismiss any scenario of Indian army in Afghanistan.

Anitha
Response to 3(a & b)
– (a) Wonderful! if the Pakistani Army comes out in the open & exposes itself, great, then we need not run pillar to post saying that they are ‘Birds of the same feather..’ & if the Pakistani society values democracy, then let it be their doings, it’s none of our business or responsibility, diplomacy??? with Whom in Pakistan? President? Prime Minister? Army Chief? or Lashkar-E-Toiba?
—(b) When we would be fighting ‘the war on terror’ for & on behalf of the NATO & USA, will China try to get adventurous on our eastern borders? knowing that it’s economic welfare solely depends on them,I don’t think so, also because our presence will be viewed positively & favourable by the Russians, who wield a lot of clout over the Chinese…

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

Aamir Ali

—Through Russia, & with full support Iran, Tajikistan, Afghanistan…, go back to school & study geography instead of Jihad for a change…

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

Pakistan is a failed state. Its just a matter of time when India will break this country into 4 pieces.
1. Azad Baluchistan
2. Azad Waziristan
3. Azad Pakhtoonistan
4. Azad Sindh

remaining part will be Pakistan.

This is the high time to give Pakistan A THOUSAND CUTS and let them bleed unto death. Indian Army sending a full Division in Afghanistan Army is a part of this Grand Design.

Its Our turn now….Allah Hafiz

Posted by mehtab | Report as abusive

well
Who will believe pakistan. when their irresposible leaders cant control thei own country. each leader first kill the other leader for their leadership. wow. what a country. If war goes ahead than pakistan should remember that what ever happened happened now pak should rememebr our children are enough to fininsh the name of pak from the globe.. Pakistan is only dependent on taliban and out sider army their own army is nil…

My idot freinds go on youtube and type in 1965 PAF battle and watch the Pak pilot making a mockery of the IAF. Infact in 1965 we still hold the record of downing more fighter planes then anyone. Which is living prove that Pakistan is in safe hands and believe me as one commenter said advanu born in sindh well tough that aint India and will never be.

Try all your dilectory tactics idiots whatever you have to through at us which you already have. What has the world done topressure is nothing same world leaders go in india and give little pro india stance when they arrive in Islamabad the tone changes.

You know why they know International community cant do nothing whitout Pakistan. If you idiots think your cowrads army can do something go ahead try it idiot.

It would a perfect time of Pakistan to take revenge of Bangledesh when the indian army can not even get supplies or where are they gping to get erm let me guess sichen glacier?lol. If the International community relied on almost all supplies from Pakistan so goood look idiots. Personlay I would love to see the indians in Afghnistan and watch the real game start again ha ha bring it on. ISI has already few tricks up there sleeve for you so if I could I would personaly send a invivitation to (kareena) kapoor soz the head of idiots chao

Posted by Ali | Report as abusive

Those of you who are questioning whether India has the money, resources, and the guts to send troops to Afghanistan are missing something.

Unlike Pakistan, India is not ruled by Indian army. This doesn’t mean, they don’t have a say in deciding and planning the strategic response to Mumbai massacre. In the last 5 yrs you all know how many bomb blasts and terrorist attacks ISI have engineered.

ISI was frustrated with the outcomes of these terrorist attacks. Bombs on Diwali, bombs in Varanasi nothing provoked communal discord. They got frustrated and decided to escalate to Mumbai attack.

Post-Mumbai India has to escalate its response PERIOD. There is no other alternative. India wants to focus on economic development, but we got Pakistan as our neighbour. No other alternative. Stationing Indian troops in Afghanistan makes eminent sense.

Ali
–”Personlay I would love to see the indians in Afghnistan and watch the real game start…”

—Watch out buddy we are coming after you barbarians…& annihilate Pakistan the land of traitors -Once & for All
—For now—DUCK- the Drones are coming…lol

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

dear hussain

BTW remember Longowal? pakistani army wasted a whole night scared of a barbed wire fence whose only purpouse was to keep wild animals at bay? brave??! yeah sure…

Posted by bvindh | Report as abusive

This is getting more interesting than I ever imagined.

To begin with, Indians are always welcomed in our land and we are known for our hospitality, unlike Pakistanis took advantage of it and now they have began paying it back lol.

Pakistan is no longer playing any major rule in fight against terrorism,
1- Because Pakistan itself is a terrorist nation supporting evil doers spread horror in Indian cities as well as Afghanistan.
2- The only reason US is quite to a limit because of supply routes to Afghanistan.
Pakistan has become more isolated than ever before. ISI must have planed Mumbai attacks in Pakistan’s favor but luckily it back fired and its going the opposite direction.

A piece of advice to you Pakis, stop talking about your Nukes lol.

If all Indians stand by their border line and all Afghans stand by our border line and urinate into Pakistan, this will flood the entire nation and that will take care of all your nukes as well as your terrorist organizations.
(I just loved this joke lol)

The time has come Pakis.

Posted by Afghan | Report as abusive

Ali,
What a fool you are, India has over 1 billion people, a GDP 10 times Pakistan, a huge industrial base and a much more educated population. Look at your army they can’t even control their own country much less try and fight a foreign power. It’s backward, uneducated, religious nuts that think they have power over the civilized world. Who do you think the rest of the world would support in a war between Pakistan and India? A country that can’t even control it’s own population contributes no major products or service to the world or a major civilized super power like India.

Posted by Chuck | Report as abusive

Silly me I read all the comments above by so called pakistani and indian teenagers. They do not read the history and they do not understand about their countries.
India is not a small nation which will break under criminal activities and it is economically and militarily too strong compare to Pakistan. However India cannot afford another SriLanka. India should avoid any military adventure because that will deaccelerate India economically. Which everyone including so called friend US want to happen to India. On the other hand Pakistan is in real mess. The Pakistani Political leadership is morally and strategically bankrupt. I do not want to see any Pakistani or Indian suffering because of their leaders
mistake. We should ask Indian politicians to put pressure on Pakistani leadership to take a firm step to get the result they want.
Destabilised Pakistan is not a good sign for India or for the entire world. I hope and pray that some sense comes to Pakistani leadership to take the right course for the poor people of Pakistan.

Pakistan is run by cowards. They have always been the aggressor in all previous wars. These cowards do not want to face any armies in war, so they send kids out of poverty who will do their cowardly acts of suicide. It works like this, promise 100 bucks to some poor unemployed kids, pay the mullahs, and Imams to give fiery speeches to the poor kids to go commit suicide and terrorism as army of Islam, that even Allah will not forgive all this in name of religion.

The failed state of Pakistan needs to be split up in so many pieces, as their debt will support. All the leaders in Pakistan that have supported terror should be prosecuted in an International tribunal, and their blackmarket in nukes should be punished.

so the back ground for organizing the Mumbai Attack by Indian themselves was to enter Afghanistan.If india willing to try Afghanistan, Pakistan should welcome them,where more 1000 Pakistan army men died let atleast 10,000 Indian die as well,India bringing a fire on its land.
Good luck india

Posted by Jef | Report as abusive

INDIA must keep in mind before they meet Pakistan Army they have to Face PUKHTUNS,if Russia couldnt stand PUKHTUNS for 10 years and where U.S.A and NATO tring for the last almost 8 years then INDIA must get prepare for the wild Pukhtuns.This time its India.The war on terror brought suicide bombings on Pakistan land ,is India thinking after entering Afghanistan will they be spared,there forces not only will face Pukhtuns and Pak army but those people who are running terrorists activities in Pakistan they wont spare Indian cities either.In the past 8 years Pakistan suffered alot for this war on terror while India was enjoying economic prosperity now i am happy that India will taste some flavour as well.
Mwah India

Posted by Sadiq khan | Report as abusive

@Ali

By the way, the F-16 is old technology now and no match for the superior Indian Su-30 fighters. The Su-30 fighters was designed to go head to head in dogfights with the F-22. Your useless coldwar junk is no good and you got no money to buy any better equipment, let alone food for Pakistan. Cleanup your back yard before you start making useless threats towards India.

Pakistan’s army is inept. It has been getting sliced up by a bunch of unprofessional uneducated foreigners. If the Pak Army cannot defeat the jihaddi/al-qaeda/wahhabi/deoband/horseme n/terrorist/extremists, they are no match for the full might of the Indian army, which is double in size of the Pak Military, with much better equipment.

To help out the cowardice Pak Army, India should send 250,000 to 500,000 troops to Afghanistan to cleanup the Taliban for good. The rest of the Taliban and Al-Qaeda cowards can run back to Pakistan, the same way that coward Bin Laden is hiding.

Pakistan would not be a recoverable society in a war with India and they know this. That is why they always talk big, because they will not hesitate killing millions of Indians with nukes.

Therefore Pakistan should focus on peaceful endeavors and try to fix its own country before trying to foment and rally all its hate towards India. That India sabre rattling is just an excuse to not fight the Jihadi’s created by Pakistan itself.

Pakistan’s self delusion that it is a sovereign nation is purely a myth. It has been overrun by foreign fighters, jihadi’s and extremism a decade ago. It has never seen civilian rule, has no rule of law, has a flip flop government, no democracy and no secularity.

Pakistan needs to choose, is it an Islamic Country First, or is it a Democracy first. It cannot seem to keep the two on the same level.

Three words describe Pakistan: Reglious Extremists, Terrorism and Hate.

There is nothing redeeming Pakistan has to offer the world.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

India takes war on terror a joke,They must ask US,NATO,Pakistan forces what they go through daily.US and NATO forces are far from Afghanistan thats why only Pakistan is suffering direct impact of this war,apart from the US,Pakistan and NATO forces everyone on the planet thinks its nothing major.Probably India is entering into it because they want internationally to be recognized, neglecting that they not very far from Afghanistan and just like Pakistan they will suffer economic downturn and huge impact.India wont be able to stand in Afghanistan for long they will run away like rats and will make more mess for U.S and NATO forces.
NATO should act more responsibly to the issue as INDIA going to ruin the 7 years of the work done and wont do any good to the situation.

Posted by Sadiq khan | Report as abusive

Hi Anup,

@.a.) We indians can say that there is some kinda nexus between paki army and the terror outfits..but with this strategic move..pakis will get a chance to say move was against pakis security and is a threat and they are left with no way but to join hands with terrorists for their own safety..then the whole idea of fight against terror collapses as other NATO countries will not allow their forces to fight a country.
and @ diplomacy we still have some representatives to talk to which will be very different situation when it becomes like GAZA and there is nobody ready to give peace talks a chance, remember for everyone…military action is the last option other than terrorists.

@ b.) Yes China can dare to make mischiefs by saying pakistan was not allowed a even ground when it was trying to help rest of the world by fighting the terror with all their strength..remember any country in general can make hundres of reasons todo what they want to do..just like US attacked Iraq or creation of taliban/queada by CIA and ISI/ liberation of bangladesh by India / killing of 1000+ people by Isreal against 13 of Iseralis killed !!

Posted by Anitha | Report as abusive

how about
Free BIHAR
FREE Bihar
Free Indian PUnjab
Free Asam
etc etc
at the end only Mumbai will be India.
India is a fail state as well,they couldnt deal with 10 terrorists how they going to deal Afghanistan ”the whole country of terrorists” lol, Shame on INDIA

Posted by Ahsen | Report as abusive

@ALI, Paks, all bloggers.

Its seems Pakistan is playing its usual games of training terrorists and at the same time professing to be fighting terrorism. It seems women are reaching some status of equality, just not the way the rest of the world is doing it:

“Pakistan’s ISI training women for terrorism
14 Jan 2009, 1127 hrs IST, TIMESOFINDIA.COM

NEW DELHI: Security forces in Jammu & Kashmir have found the new face of terror. During an interrogation of a woman arrested last week by
the J&K police for providing logistics support for the JeM and Let militants, it was revealed that Pakistan’s ISI is reportedly inducting women into militancy. ( Watch )

TV reports suggest that ISI is adopting a new ploy and training woman to carry out militant attacks.

During interrogation of an alleged ISI agent arrested by the Jammu and Kashmir police, she confessed that she was trained by the ISI in the Bhiber and Kotli forests in the Pakistan Occupied Kashmir (PoK).

The video footage shows Asiya Malik – a woman militant, revealing that about 100 girls are being trained in terrorist camps financed by ISI in PoK to carry out militant activities in Jammu and Kashmir.

In her recorded conversation, Malik reveals how Pakistani girls are being trained in the handling of weapons, explosives, jungle warfare and sabotage activities. She said the women are being trained in two militant training camps in Bhimber and Kotli areas across the Line of Control in PoK.

“I’ve seen the Mujahideen training camps. Women are also being trained here. Right now, there are about 700 women receiving arms training in different militant camps run by the ISI. These women are also provided with terror literature and taught how to use small arms like guns & grenades,” she said in a recorded confession.

Malik also told interrogators that the Pakistani intelligence agency ISI was financing these training camps and that the recruits come from various countries including Saudi Arabia.”

The PoK needs to be cleaned up for good. What Pakistan does not realize is that by antagonizing and plotting against India, they will bring about their own annihilation, permanently.

Quit training terrorists!!!!!!

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

I Agree with Anitha and disagree with Anup.
All Indians, please do some research, Canada is pulling out all troops out of Afghanistan by 2011. Western countries cannot sustain the fatalities and casualties in Afghanistan’s harsh conditions. They are luring India into Afghanistan, is the blood of Indian soldiers cheap? Is India prepared to recieve C-130 loads of body bags? What about the public centiments? Afghanistan will not be picnic for Indian soldiers, he who plays with fire will burn his hand. Statistics show insurgency is gaining momentum in Afghanistan, India better not send their soldiers in harms way. So far it seems, Indians generally are unaware of the facts.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

umair,
He who plays with fire burn his hands, kinda sounds like Pakistan attacking India in Mumbai doesn’t it. Canada is leaving Afghanistan for political reasons. Their death toll less than 100 that’s nothing for a country of 100m and hardly plane loads of body bags. Just typical mother of all threats the the world expects from Pakistan and that everyone knows carries no weight. Just like Hamas saying that Gaza will be the graveyard for Israel soldiers. India is gaining influence in Afghanistan and soon will have a military presence there to protect it’s interests from the ISI. It really looks like the Mumbai attacks have blown up in the ISI’s face and now will have the Indians on both sides of there boarders.

Posted by Chuck | Report as abusive

The Kabul bombing shows that even one Indian consulate near the pak border threathends ISI/Pak to hell. An indian miliatry base will definitely change the whole equation.
1) Pakistan will not be able to threaten the world of pulling its army from western border to eastern border coz then the attack could happen from any direction.
2) If India joins the NATO they can use the supply routes from Russia/Central asia. If India does not join NATO they can use the supply routes of Iran too. (Remember Iran and India are still close ally).
3)Indian presense in Aghanistan will also help in securing energy routes of central asia and Iran.
4) India will be better able to curb the illegal drug trade that has become the chief financier for all terrorist in this region(including the one in Pakistan and Kashmir)

Anitha,
@a Pak and terrorist are still hand in glove. this will only bring truth to light. If Pak joins terrorist than no one in this world it being labelled terrorist state. (Though nothing wrong with that.
@b Current China is lot different from Mao’s china. No one in Mao’s china would have dreamt of tacitly accepting india’s stand on Sikkim. One thing i like most of current Chinese govt is that they are a practicle lot.
Additionally, india is not splitting its army into two, its just moving a strategic number to aghanistan.

Posted by chirkut | Report as abusive

So far, Pakistan has been restrained in its ties with Iran. But if it were pushed to the wall, I see every reason why it could cozy-up with Iran. Yes, there are some disagreements between Iran and Pakistan: the close relationship between Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, the Sunni-Shia divide etc. But the geopolitical map could change overnight if there were to be a full entente between Iran and Pakistan.

Wonder what is the opinion of other readers on this?

Posted by Alethia | Report as abusive

@Afghani and Indians,

We should do everything possible to help Afghanistan rebuild their country. These Afghani people have the same culture as ours India. We should build new mosques for them even, if it means that our friendship is strengthened.

India should setup a huge military base in Afghanistan. India should keep around 300,000 troops there. This is a hall mark time to catch Bin Laden and clean up the Taliban cowards that behead women. Afghanistan used to have a fashion industry and be a very cosmopolitan country in its cities. It is time to restore that.

It is time to teach Pakistan a lesson it will never forget. India will never attack Pakistan first. If Pakistan decides to do anymore proxy wars, they will be stopped before they can start.

Afghanistan’s army should also be trained and armed to defend their own country.

Pakistan is going to reap what it has sown. Pure evil. Pakistan’s own evil will cause it to implode on itself. As the different provinces separate away and it will happen very quickly, the issue of the Pak nukes must be resolved and a massive multinational invasion force should standby to confiscate them, especially incase they fall into the wrong hands in what will formerly be known as the military owned territory of Pakistan.

Peace will come to all ethnic regions, Kashmir will cease to be an issue, Afghanistan gets their family back from the NWFP and any other regions they want along their border. The Pashtuns will be one family. Sindh and Punjab, if they wish may join with India. Balochistan and goto Iran, etc…

Every opportunity should be given for the Pak army to mount a resistance, if they wish. Although it is preferred that they surrender.

This is just a fictious scenario in which Pakistan attacks first. Remember, India will not attack Pakistan as a country directly. Although it may attack terrorist training camps. Pakistan should not make a big fuss about protecting its terrorists, since it agreed terrorism is wrecking its country.

The incorrect territorial lines set forth by the British will be rectified.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

My action thriller, Tarbela Damned — Pakistan Tamed, says it all regarding encircling Pakistan into submission. The Shia-Suni divide and having Iran as an ally is fictonalized. The alienated minorities of Pakistan are exploited.

Posted by C N Anand | Report as abusive

Chuck wrote:
“India is gaining influence in Afghanistan and soon will have a military presence there to protect it’s interests from the ISI. ”
MY FOOT
India should rather gain influence in Mumbai, there might be another attacked being planned at this stage. The Satyam computer scandal, the Mumbai security failure are a blot to India’s reputation. You guys are getting into dirty business, forget about foreign investment and tourism. Welcome to Afghanistan! Pakistan and Afghanistan bled the Soviet Union to death in Afghanistan. You are simply unaware of ISI’s capabilities and sphere of influence. I bet, Indian soldiers will encounter the most ruthless guirella warriors in Afghanistan.
Buddy, Pakistan is not a helpless nation like the poor Palestininas. We are not sitting idle and putting on bangles in our wrists. Pakistani weapons are lethal and capable of unleashing serious damage to India. We will fight for honour and dignity and to preserve our independence. Your chest-thumping comments are hollow and contain no substance. Pakistan is and will be a force to be reckoned with. Lets see how far India can go.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Sanjeev,

It’s feasible for India to keep some peace-keeping forces in Afghanistan. If India already has light military base in Tajikistan, then it shouldn’t hesitate from sending its peace-keeping forces in Afghanistan.

Fixing Afghanistan is more critical than worrying about the encirclement of Pakistan. It’s time for Pakistan to grow up and drop the hypocrisy. To bring normalcy in Afghanistan, NATO will need help from all the stable neighbors in the region, including India, Russia, Iran and China.

Posted by Nikhil | Report as abusive

Alethia,
it takes two to tango. Y
1) As many Paki gleefully mentioned in their comments, Pakistan is a front line non NATO blah blah blah. Pakistan is so dependent on US aid that i rather doubt that it would be ALLOWED to make friendship with Iran.
2) Paki funded and supported Taliban rule was so ruthless with Shias of Afghanistan that many had to flee and took refuge in Iran. As a worldwide leader of Shia muslims Iran has not taken that lightly.

How many neighbors Pakis have 1) India 2) Afghanistan 3)Iran and 4)china
With How many neighbors Pakis enjoy friendly ties
1) China
Does that tell you anything?

Umair,
Presence of India will be very different from Soviets. India or indian is not foreign to Afghanistan. India is already involved big time in rebuilding Afghanistan ruined by you pakis.
And if history could tell anything about future than i see another bangladesh in making in Balochistan. watch out!

Posted by chirkut | Report as abusive

Umair wrote:
Pakistan is and will be a force to be reckoned with. You are simply unaware of ISI’s capabilities and sphere of influence. Pakistani weapons are lethal and capable of unleashing serious damage to India.
You have got to be kidding, where do you get your information from, oh i forgot you get it from Pakistani press, what a joke. Have you seen pictures of Pakistan military capability? How old are your tanks, how many aircraft do you fly, how many of your troops have matching uniforms? You send 50,000 troops to the western boarders to control, what, a bunch of your own citizens who biggest weapon is a AK-47, how fierce is your army? What world do you live in? Your capabilities are to send a bunch of drugged up kids to shoot women and children and think you are great warriors, your army has no tradition, no honor and no guts only big talk about how great you are. Look at how silly you look when Saudi tells you to shape up and do something about the Mumbai attacks, see how quickly you jump.

Posted by Chuck | Report as abusive

MJ Akbar (Editor, Deccan Chronicle) writes: Times of India Jan 14, 2009
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Opini on/Columnists/MJ_Akbar/Blood_does_not_sl eep_stays_awake_as_nightmare/articleshow   /3961870.cms

POOR governance has created a knowledge deficit; and knowledge is the key to strength. An Arab friend sent me some startling statistics; the email was captioned ‘A time for introspection’. Here are just a few: there are only 500 odd universities in the Muslim world. The United States has 5,758 and India has nearly 8,500. Literacy in the developed world is 90% against 40% in the Muslim world. If you removed Turkey from the list, the comparison would look grimmer. High tech goods and services constitute only 0.9% of the exports from Pakistan, and 0.3% from Algeria. They add up to 68% of Singapore’s exports.

Azad DP: What did Pakistan contribute in its 60 yrs of miserable existence.Please ask Mr Akbar and other Indian Muslims to enlighten you. Wake up.

All this talk about India deploying its troops in Afghanistan is absolutely ridiculous for the following reasons:

1) Even if Indian forces are deployed there, it would be more of a strategic military base, similar to the Farkhor Air Base of the Indian Air Force in Tajikistan.

2) India, unfortunately, does not enjoy the geographic isolation which USA has. If it wages a direct war against Taliban, the Islamic jihadists will hit India hard and would further complicate the ongoing crisis.

3) Indian Muslims definitely would show their displeasure to any such military engagement in Afghanistan. And do not forget the Indian communist parties.

4) Fighting a war away from home is a huge drain on resources and given the present economic scenario, that would be the last option.

Pakistanis should themselves realize the threat which these Islamic extremists pose to their country. And the more they cooperate with India, the better it is for them.

Having said that, the only way Taliban, including their militant associates like Laskhar, can pose a serious challenge to India is either through guerrilla warfare or through terrorist attacks. They neither have the guts nor the resources to fight Indians face-to-face.

Posted by Deepak | Report as abusive

On the contrary.

It is very amusing to see Pakis worried about how bad it would be for India to get more involved in Afghanistan. Pakistan has not responded to rational arguments, diplomatic coercion to stop terrorism. You don’t even to send thousands of troops to Afghanistan, imagine setting up just an airforce base in Afghanistan.

As I said earlier, this is not war mongering. India would rather spend money on economic development, but we have to deal with Pakistan. Peace is not a unilateral option.

Even Taliban terrorists have enormous support amongst Pakistani population. It is no use saying they don’t enjoy majority support since the army, political parties which support them are very powerful.

It is wishful thinking on the part of Indians to expect Post-Mumbai anti-India terrorists will lose popularity , and official support in Pakistan.

We never learn. We have consitently underestimated Pakistan’s capacity for suicidal, self-destructive behavior.

Ali,
I thought you would start behaving. But, NO WAY. How can you let that happen. Let me remind you again: Mind your language.

Posted by Nick | Report as abusive

To read more about the developments in Pakistan and the region in general go to http://www.real-politique.blogspot.com

Nadim
‘Silly me I read all the comments above by so called pakistani and indian teenagers.’ & then you say—‘Destabilised Pakistan is not a good sign for India or for the entire world.’

—-How Silly of you…

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

Anitha
‘as other NATO countries will not allow their forces to fight a country.’

—The NATO countries are as it is going to leave the USA high & dry very soon, that’s where we come in, & it’s better we fight the Pakistani’s on the Eastern side (either with USA or Russia at our side) than from our borders…
‘remember any country in general can make hundreds of reasons to-do what they want to do..’

—Exactly! So today or tomorrow China will do what it wants to do-& it’s better than in the intervening period we carve out strategic alliances instead of Ostrich like wait for enemy to attack at their opportune time…

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

Umair
—“I Agree with Anitha and disagree with Anup.”

—-THANKS A LOT for the complement….lol it seems the very idea is sending chills down the spines of Pakistani’s…

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

1) History shows that it is psyche of Pashtuns that they see foriegn troops as occupation forces and give a fierce resistance whatever the intentions of the troops may be. Even it is very difficult for Pakistan to keep troops in the tribal areas within Pakistani border.

2)India voted aginst Iran’s nuclear program in security council and is unwilling to contribute in the gaspipeline consortium under US pressure. There are no permanent foes or friends in foriegn relations. So expecting Iran to side with India in a conflict with Pakistan is incorrect.

3) Afganistan with Pakistan is an energy and trade corridor to Central Asian states. Its a new great game going on to control this area. India already sees it as a big power but should analyze carefully that getting into Afghan mess will have a spillover effect to its own borders.

4) China has interest to access to Gawader port. Whoever controlling the Pakistani Taliban is very wisely using them to advance in Swat and control Karakoram higway. Once the Taliban are there in area of Kohistan then China is effectively blocked there. There has been an increasing number of killing and kidnapping of Chinese worker for the last few years in Pakistan.

5)Russia would like to get the extremism to be defeated in Afghanistan but at the same time they would like the conflict to carry on indefinitely so an energy route to the south out of there control can not be established.

6)With so many players and strange bedfellows with conflicting interests will only destabilize the area and will bring pain and agony to the whole region.

Posted by Julius | Report as abusive

Deepak
A tactical Army base is precisely our desire, certainly India is not hankering to battle the Pashtuns, on the contrary, the Punjabi Taliban….
By shifting the battlefield from our precincts to the Eastern borders, we give ourselves not only geographical but also strategic advantage which we critically require against the Pakistani Armed force … Jihad has already been declared on India, what more are we waiting for???—the current Taliban is poles apart from the contemporary Pashtuni Taliban that fought the Russians– it’s an extended arm of the ISI- The PanjabiTaliban don’t let yourselves be deceived by the Americans & the Paki Army (some terror war games they play, sic)

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

Deepak

–If as you say, then Self-centered interests of Indian Muslims & the communists must not determine the course of our countries future …period.
Desist from giving unsolicited counseling to the Paki’s
They have forced this war on us, the response should be more than befitting & with longlasting results, the LET etc. are sponsored by saudi’s & arab nations- underestimating your enemy is unwise…

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

@Anup, please correct yourself Taliban (Pashtun) never fought Russians. In fact Taliban is a post Russia occupation phenomenon.

Posted by Julius | Report as abusive

Any Indian force in Afghanistan will have to be at least 75,000 in size in order to present any sort of threat to Pakistan. The presence of such a force also gives Pakistan a justifiable reason to support insurgent groups in Afghanistan.

Hence I talking about such a scenario is a waste of time.

Not that I dont want India to have a strategically best position but I see the arguments here are by and large one sided by a large number of Indian supporters v/s very few Pak supporters. So just to take the discussion fwd, I choose to argue on the hurdles in Indian side for this strategic move.

Anup, you bought forward a nice thought – “Jihad has already been declared on India, what more are we waiting for???”
So one of the hurdles for India the 1948 rule that i mentioned earlier could be overcome if India is bound to send troops to foreign land for the safety of its citizens. This cannot be restricted by law, we already have.

As far as Irans support to India against Pakistan is considered..I think Iran will support India as long as the affessive is called on terrorits in pakistan.because Iran has been a victim and long complaining to stop the terrorist attack in Iran from Pakistani Judallah clan..who are as deadly as LeT.

Apart from the hurdles I already mentioned..there are few more on the army front i anticipate for this strategic move..
1.) Indian army is not by far used to work in co-ordination with a multi-national army you can expect a few problems voiced by other NATO troops in that area.

2.) Indian army has never worked under a foreign command, will our army men accept to work with full support to a US army commander ??

3.) I think you agree that we will atleast need a troop strength more / atleast close to 100000, but such a large group itself is a problem..when US army top brass is questioning the decision of sending in 30000 more men saying they could just be a sitting ducks for the style of war games the Taliban militants engage them in. will the Indian army top brass allow sending sucha large number of men wiht out asking for a clear strategy from US ??

Posted by Anitha | Report as abusive

@India is not scared by a bunch of terrorist guys sitting on pillows telling others to get themselves blown up or killed, while they sit safe in a cave somewhere or in a tent, praying all day. What surprises me is that these guys are too cowardly to go fight themselves, instead they feed on those who are mentally weak and use their weakness to hurt others.

From the blogger, above “Why bother” correctly states that illiteracy is a huge problem in muslim culture. Since the wahhabi and “hashasins” (where the word assasin comes from) have politically taken over Islam, Muslim nations have been intellectually regressing for the past 1200 years.

That is, no modern development in mathematics, physics, engineering, biology, technology or art/science, etc has originated as a pure discovery from those nations. There has been no significant contribution of new or original knowledge and development to humanity from Islamic nations for the past 1200 years.

Yet Christianity, Hinduism and Judaism and other cultures, which number in the very few, relative to the world population, have made the quantum developmental leaps in science and brought us to the modern world today with computers, flight, the space programs and all matters of science which give us the life we enjoy today in the modern world.

What this means is that modern Islamic countries have been oppressed by Islamic Extremism, and at their core, they reject the fundamental idea of “questioning” one’s world.

The Golden Age of Islam ended when they were taken over by the Extremists. As Islam conquered nations, they would invite all the Doctors, Lawyers, Engineers to large places of gathering as guests and have them systematically beheaded. Within a generation a conquered nation would be set back 1000-2000 years.

As humans, if we stop questioning, this marks the end of the human race.

It is no wonder why so many Islamic countries have their people expatriated to other countries to learn and come back and educate their own home countries.

An evil, retrograde political and stagnant extremist ideology has hijacked moderate Islam 1200 years ago. The question is, is the average muslim going to embrace the current path of stagnation and hate, or embrace a modern thirst to bring Islam into a Renaissance and Reformation?

Extremist Islam serves only to drain the world of knowledge, the ability to question, and most of all, the progression of humanity.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

Pakistan threatening to further “support insurgent groups” in Afghanistan is empty bravado!!

Pak economy is on life support. More importantly, the future econmoic prospects look bleaker. The chickens have come home to the roost.

Any chances of even survival requires money from IMF, WB and US aid. Purse strings will be even more tightened if this threat to “support insurgent groups” is attempted.

Also, beasides the monetary aspects, what’s going on Swat valley is evidence for the blowbacks Pakistan will suffer.

Pakistan army has escalated the covert war with its Mumbai operation. There is no other alternative.India will have to retaliate back to defend itself. Troops in Afghanistan are not the only option.

Julius
The ‘Peshawar Seven’ coalition of anti- Soviet mujahedeen forces & Mullah Omar the later founder of Taliban,was then in theHarakat-i-Inqilab-i-Islami faction & all he did was assimilate it under a new name & annexed Afghanistan…

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

Anitha
—Indian troops will not join without a joint-command or independent arrangement, & further it could arrange strategic locations for itself or slowly shift to such locations with a planned long-term strategy, anyways, once our troops takeover NATO forces would merrily withdraw- & in any democracy even if you deploy two soldiers or twenty thousand , the outcry decibel is the same,

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

Bangash Khan
“The presence of such a force also gives Pakistan a justifiable reason to support insurgent groups in Afghanistan.”
— Surely- Be our Guest- & gladly shall the same logic be used to support insurgent groups in Balochistan / Sindh / Waziristan etc. etc. against the Punjabi Army…

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

Anitha
“..they could just be a sitting ducks for the style of war games the Taliban militants engage them in.”
— Our Army knows & has the best of experience against such types of battles- they are the best- proven in the Kashmir Valley & not to forget the humiliation of Pakistan during the Kargil war…

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

@Anup, the army formations(equipment, strategy mix etc) are very largely different from when you are confronting the terrorists to when you have to confront an professional army. So when India is asked to extend its army help to eliminate terrorist targets..India cannot put arjun tanks there or bofors guns there which are fundamental to fight a conventional war the one we would like to fight with Pak army !!!Terrorists are fought with light infantry, aromoured vehicles, gun ships simply not enough to confront any army.

Kargil win was no doubt a brave show by Indian army but in my view the kargil war also exposed many deficiancies in Indian army..just to name few..
- the indian comander who was incharge blindly took his men to the forefront with out a clear occupy and hold strategy which was not carved out by his seniors either..which in total my far underestimated the enemy strength and their stratic position on the peak from where they could easily monitor troop movement down hill..we lost men in 100′s for not properlly planning..

- when the rajasthan border was put on alert there were 80-100 trucks (no correct figure is given to public till date) carrying ammunition supply to men in front positions which were destroyed because of fire and follwed by blasts because of mis-handling of materials during transit.luckily there were about 400 trucks loaded with explosives in that convey..most of them escaped the fire.

So guys dont estimate enemy strength with the experience we have from previous confrontations..every war is different..and every war has different leaders and different strategies carved out not to forget every war is fought with many new war toys on both sides..

Posted by Anitha | Report as abusive

I think i should also write about few positive improvements army achieved during kargil..
- The co-ordination between army and airforce were best ever then before its only in the war of 1971 these guys ( the army and airforce) worked together as a team other wise they lacked co-ordination in other wars fought before and acted on their own missions and targets.

- The bofors guns were put to real use and it proved more than just usefull equipment…which played a major role for the win..either to provide fire cover for ascending indian men who were easy targets for a enemy sitting on hill top..but ascending men prooved their mettle to step foot on those mountains even when they couldn’t see a enemy.

- Army was determined to take maximum lives from the enemy side..they did frame a innovative strategy which was to occupy the strageic peaks but did not secure and hold the positions after conquering..but they allowed the enemy to bite a bate by leaving those peaks and allowing the enemy to re-occupy so that our army can kill them and occupy again and again and again one of the reasons why kargil war took sucha long time to end..
Indian army didnt want to end it as long as they were killing fresh enemy..Pakistanis started it..and they ended it not because of diplomatic talks but they ended it by accepting defeat by not sending their men back again..

Posted by Anitha | Report as abusive

Anitha and Anup
Once again I support Anitha’s views. One thing needs to be clarified, AAfghanistan is a landlocked country and any huge military operation is dependent on Pakistan’s logistical support. The ISI understands the territory, for Pakistan Army this is also a familiar drill, Pakistan and Afghanistan dislodged the USSR from Afghanistan through ayymetrical warfare. Any large Indian military presence in Afghanistan must keep in view how will they sustain themselves in Afghanistan. Specially at a time when India’s relations with Pakistan are hostile.
Remember, Pakistan Army was ordered to open fire on intruding US ground forces after the famous Sept 3, 2008 Waziristan raid. After the incident, Pakistan Army really did open fire on NATO and US helicopters and it is on the record. The durand line border between Pakistan and Afghanistan is ill defined, Pakistan Army will engage the Indians in border skirmishes, with increased guirella attacks, IEDs, ambushes etc. Does Indian Army has counter insurgency capabilities? Is India prepared for such a costly adventure? I re-assert, Afghanistan will be a quagmire for India. Indian troops will be fighting for life in Afghanistan, much less posing any threat to Pakistan. The theory of strategic encirclement of Pakistan is nullified, given Pakistan’s capability to outmanouver such scenario with bold strategy.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

ANUP—

What are you waiting for my idiotic friend go tell the your coward army to go to Afghnistan.

Your army is good at raping kashmiri women, murdering children in staged killing and occupation. So if those are the skills required then I totaly agree with Anup indian cowards are best at it so there for should be given a chance.

Regards to Kargil war if it wasnt for Nawaz Sharif we had all supply line to your forces in sight of the Paki guns. No wonder your leaders got there totis together and went to USA to put little pressure on Pakistan and pull back lol. What about the downing of few indian fighter jets that got blasted out of skys lol. You forgot that already, like i said “JUST DO IT” and stop barking.

All I hear talk talk and NO ACTION, India tried and still is to harm Pakistan anyway possible. But the only sympthy they are getting is few statements from double standard western masters. Anyway India can forgot to ever even get A Paki to be tried in indian court so go to hell!

We are waiting but all we hear is from far are mad idnian dogs barking, surely they know as soon as they are sighted they will shot on the forhead exactly where the RED button is placed lol.

Posted by Ali | Report as abusive

Anitha
—Although debatable, Even then if your aspersions are taken on face value, should we just procrastinate & meekly accept the atrocities & mayhem heaped on us by Pakistan? Must not we assert our right to progressive & peaceful existence? Who says it’s going to be a cakewalk, but should uneventualities & the collateral damage costs act as a deterrent to determine our Universal fundamental rights?
-Debate / Discuss Army Strategies- But never cast aspersions or be pessimistic or doubt their grit & capabilities- always believe & put your trust in them…Yes, it would be a different war, many battles may be lost- But the War is ours to WIN!

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

Here is pride of Pakistan, and pride of being Nuclear country….
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB12270316 8938638015.html

Have your say….

Posted by Jack | Report as abusive

Umair
—What all will you defend? The Rajasthan borders?the J&K loc? or defend the Northern Areas from falling in Indian hands from both sides? or fight the Indian forces on the Durrand lines? & be at the mercy of mercenary Jihadi forces to bail you out, would they not demand their pound of flesh? & when thru India’s good office, Russia & Iran allow uninterrupted movement & supplies(what do think we constructing the Afghan-Iran Highway for-Fun?)who all will you fight with…

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

ALI—-

Brrrrrrrrrr….Shooooooo…

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

Umair, Afghanistan is land locked only until Iran or Russia allows the movement into afghanistan through them…as i said earlier..there are more chances of Iran and Russia allowing just that as soon as India gets invovled in it..another reason to support my statement is when US declared to bring peace into afghanistan regional powers like India should get involved..Iran and Russia have felt a little bad for not including them..we all have read Iran’s cry to recognize it as a regional power..havn’t we ?? So they will be more than happy to co-operate with india.
I rather think there will not be a large army of any one wing..but will be a strategic mix of task force commandoes and air force. because as someone already pointed out because of large tribal armed men in west front of pakistan..there is no point having large number of men as it would be suicidal to try to enter and hold poistions from that side of pakistan…but a task force commandoes along with air force can swiftly inflict maximum damange to pakistani troops and get out of there and the rest can be done from entering from east with heavy artillary and full land army to hold the occupied territory.

Posted by Anitha | Report as abusive

This turning into a slugfest.

Could we have a discussion instead?

A new world order is emerging; America is not going to be the only superpower in the future; China, India, EU & Russia will be the major future players too.

Its too early to side with Nato and the US, India has to keep its equation with long time ally Russia and continue warming up to China, so I doubt India will send troops to Afghanistan.

Umair has a valid point; fact is Pakistan’s complete cooperation alone can guarantee a stable Afghanistan. But on the other hand if India was to send a division of troops to secure areas near Kabul and not engage in border areas with Pakistan (thereby avoiding body bags), it would still give many Pakistani generals and rulers sleepless nights.

This can have many effects on Pakistan, increased defense expenditure, increased ISI/Army interference in government decisions, diverting resources from economic restructuring of the country, political chaos, easing of army actions against Taliban and many more such nails in the coffin.

If India’s intention is to stop terrorism emanating from across the border then this is the ideal time to force Pakistan to do so by aggressive diplomacy, but if India really wants to break Pakistan opening a second war front would be an acceptable cost.

All wars come at heavy cost and best victory is the one achieved without war, but I think the situation in Afghanistan, Pakistan India triangle is so messed up it would sooner or later result in a short war or at least long period of proxy wars.

Posted by belligerent | Report as abusive

Anup..dude..just debating here..u can surely take me as a person who admires army than anybody else..not placing a mistrust or undermining them..i just said not to under estimate the opponent when you or anybody posts their views here..and you can be rest assured that army on both sides think and discuss only this 24/7 and are much more intelligent in making their strtegies than any of us bloggers here..I would request you to stop replying to non-sense and personall abuses from Ali here..you can take and reply on anything usefull from him..but dont drop down to his level of speech in your replies..it only shows his immaturity.
Am glad at Umair who is the only pakistani who is engaged in sensible discussion with out loose talks.

Posted by Anitha | Report as abusive

Ali wrote:
Your army is good at raping kashmiri women, murdering children in staged killing and occupation.Anyway India can forgot to ever even get A Paki to be tried in indian court so go to hell!
What do you care, Kashmir is a part of India and the only killing and murdering of women and children come from Pakistan non-state actors. Really your people are very good at killing women and children but when it comes to war just look at your history and see how many times your army has just turned and run. And last i looked a Paki will be tried in India(the Mumbai attacker), and boy is he brave, begged for his life like a little girl and squealed on all his friends. Big man without his guns and bombs. How is the world supposed to take the Pakistan army seriously when all we see of Pakistan fighters are little drugged out crying boys fall apart when they see someone with a gun. God your army is so silly that all your neighbors constantly lob bombs or fly drones over your boarders and laugh at you.

Posted by Chuck | Report as abusive

Belligerent,

India if at all sends troops to Afghanistan then its definately not with the intention of supporting US or NATO, we may have to stay there though..simply because Taliban was never our enemy to fight with but was a recognized govt from Indians.
Indian army presense in afghanistan will not have a considerable army expenses for pakistan because they already have their army there for many years now and is nothing new..
and Indian intention is definately not only to stop terrorism when it send troops to afghanistan..we aint saints either!!

Posted by Anitha | Report as abusive

Anitha
Iran allowing logistical support to Indian troops for Afghanistan is unimaginable as long as thousands of American troops are stationed in Afghanistan. US is begining talks with Kazakhstan to secure some supply routes. Russia with its already worsening gas disputes with Ukraine and Europe has long seen expanded NATO as a threat. Remember the whole operation in Afghanistan, the American troops are under UNAMA(UN Assistance Mission to Afghansitan) while NATO troops operate under the authority of (ISAF) Intl. security Assistance Force. Currently, after Gerogia conflict Russian has suspended cooperation with NATO. Although a major world player, Russia will have no interest in present day Afghanistan. Russian priorities lie in the Caucasus, Black Sea and the energy supply routes to western Europe. Besides all this any supply routes strecthed all along from Russian territory running into Afghanistan will be vulnerable and fragile at best.
Indian commando and air force attacks from Afghan side of the border? FORGET IT. Read following eye opener article in US Army Times dated sept 2008:
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2008/09/Ar my_border_ops_092608w/
THE US conducted a commando raid in Sept 3 in Waziristan after which Pakistan threatened to shut supply lines and ordered the Army to open fire shooting down helicopters and intruding ground troops. Few incidents of exchange of fire took place, few brave officers on the border did open fire on the Americans, the above article tells the rest of the story how the US underestimated Pakistan’s strength. It is in the word of US military command, I am not self praising Pakistan Army.
Is India more of super power than US? If US could not conduct such operations against Pakistan, India will never. Besides, dont expect Pakistani F-16s not coming into action, this will be nothing less than a quagmire.
ENTERING FROM the east? with Pakistan Army strike corps based in Punjab and Sindh provinces backed with Infantry, artrillery, Cobra gunships and close air support by Pakistan Air Force prepare your selves for a tough battle. This way or that, Pkaistan will never be an easy game. Not to mention weapons of mass destruction, all hell will break loose if Pakistan’s soverignity, territorial integrity and honour is threatened.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Anitha,
Only Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and the United Arab Emirates recognized the Taliban as Afghanistan’s legitimate government. India did not.

Pakistan army is present on the border but never really ever had a credible threat of invasion from the Afghan border, so an Indian deployment will increase its expenditure exponentially and drain its already depleted economy.

Barring a nuclear war India is in a win-win situation but for Pakistan as the name of this blog suggests its “Pakistan now or never?”.

As you rightly said “we aint saints either!!”, its prudent to recognize that if Pakistan is cornered from all sides (internal: radicals, Taliban, ISI, public opinion. external: well pretty much the whole world), what option does it really have except to go nuclear ?

There are secular forces in Pakistan too and there are those who are under influences of vested powers. It would be wrong to push an entire nation for the acts of few.

Long story short I see only one viable situation where the Pakistan regains its position in the world ”Regime Change” (I know the term has been misused in the past) and by regime change I mean changes in the ISI and Pakistan Army and its ideology.
Changing Pakistan’s political leadership, it’s just too easy and it doesn’t really wield any powers.

Hopefully in a few hundred years (or sooner) all countries will have open borders and the world will be divided into economic zones but until then we will have to just revel in our cave man mentality.

Posted by belligerent | Report as abusive

Anitha
—Alright, Strategies & tactics are as it is left to the amateurs & analysts, the Pros believe in results…
–Ali is fun-lol

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

++++++But on the other hand if India was to send a division of troops to secure areas near Kabul and not engage in border areas with Pakistan (thereby avoiding body bags), it would still give many Pakistani generals and rulers sleepless nights++++

Totally agreed. That’s the way to go for India.

It will be really foolish for India to resume “composite dialogue” and expect Pakistan to stop its covert war.

Anup and Belligerent
Firt, Pakistan has a policy of offensive defense. This means Pakistan will not be on the defense on all fronts, Kashmir, north, LOC Afghan border and east in Punjab/Rajhastan. Prepare for offensive and attacking scenarios. Pakistan has the capability to fight multi-prong warfare, defeating the Soveit Union, the 50 years long strategic relationship with the US, the development of nuclear weapons. Pakistan has come a long way in understanding and conducting power game.
After being cornered from all sides, Pakistan will need an offensive strategy, a mix of caution and agrression, some times bold, a policy based on disinformation, secrecy and lies. ISI will have to do what it does best, Pakistan will need to forge new alliances, open up new fronts. It will get messy and chaotic, but ultimately the final blow will be dealt to India as Pakistan outmanouver it.
After Mumbai attacks, India tried diplomatic isolation and Pakistan outsmart this move. Strategic encirclement? expecting ISI had not planned in advance to counter anything like this? this will be ridiculous on part of India.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Umair
—”Pakistan’s soverignity, territorial integrity and honour is threatened.”

—Well then respect others sovereignty, territorial integrity and honour & earn the right to claim your own…
“Pakistan will never be an easy game”
–We are not the one spoiling for war, it’s Pakistan that’s forcing it down our throat,& if it turns ugly- so be it…you need not be a Super Power to defend your right to peaceful living…

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

Umair
“Pakistan has come a long way in understanding and conducting power game.”

—We’ll see at the appropriate hour,,, you forget the sea my friend- Mordern wars are fought with Navies also, India will destroy Karachi port once again, block & suffocate supplies & aids to Pakistan…it would cripple Pakistan.

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

Anup
This is a war of attrition, two lions cant stay in one den. Either India or Pakistan will be eliminated. Both will have to do their best. I am on Pakistan side and you have bet your chances for India. Lets do our best to empower our countries and fight on.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Anup
Karachi’s Naval blockade is a long Indian dream, after acquiring French Agosta submarines, Pkaistan have signed an agreement to acquire another three German subs.
C-802 is an anti-ship missile which will never allow Indian warships closing in on Pakistani coasts. PC-3 Orions conducting reconnaisance, Pakistan Navy submarines patrolling the coast, Pakistan is up to speed with Naval warfare. You can run but you cant hide!

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Umair ”
After Mumbai attacks, India tried diplomatic isolation and Pakistan outsmart this move.”

—We expected it to be so, but being a matured & responsible Nation, we would not act impulsively & behave like warmongers, thus, even after being fully aware of the outcome, we opted for the diplomatic route, step by step- All Our Options are still Open…

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

Umair

—My sincere apologies to all Pakistani’s- because we shall destroy all the subs / tanks / f-16′s etc. for which your coming future generations shall pay thru their nose to the Jews (IMF-who’s money do you think it is? ofcourse the Jews!), Whose money your Army is mindlessly spending for the amusement of the Indian Soldiers for war practice…

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

Umair

–There’s only one Tiger in the jungle-India. Pakistan is a halluci-Nation…an imposter who’s usured our holy ancestral land…

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

Anup wrote:
“India will destroy Karachi port once again, block & suffocate supplies & aids to Pakistan…it would cripple Pakistan.”
Pakistan Air Force will retaliate with in minutes, in Gaza Palestinians never had an Air Force unfortunately. The F-16s, Mirage, F-7Ps, JF-17 Thunders, Fighting Falcons, Sidewinder missiles, rockets and machine gun fire, bombs, ……….
Dont expect to do a Gaza on Pakistan. Pakistani pilots are not playing chess in their hangars, they could scramble with their jets within minutes to respond to any intruding aircraft.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Hi Umair, I agree with your thinking of support from Iran and Russia depended on US presence in the region until it is Bush’s administration..If you had kept along with emerging news you can see both Iran and Russia expressed atleast 3 time in last week to forge good relations with US with Obama..but still it may depend on how Obama will take the new relations forward. So we may have to keep a watch on this one.and i have a feeling it will not take long to acess what will happen because first thing Obama said will do is handle Middle east / Isreal that will lay foundation of his relations with Iran and Russia may come later.
Pakistan threatened NATO and US by shutting down supply routes after ground raid..well thats is what it is all about..Pakistan will definately shut down the routes again if India is allowed in to Afghan that is expected.

Entering from east ?? yes..you know , I know pakistan with 1:7 ratio of its population in army but still is 1:2 with army strength with India..India simply has twice as much as pakistan has. And India has showed numbers of all army equipment and tanks a little more than twice than what pakistan has..but we know none of the countries ever reveal their real numbers..they always show a little less..Only equipment that India has a little less than pakistan is number of armoured vehicles..you have more of them…but then India has Russian Tunguskas ( Not sure if am spelling it right).

Posted by Anitha | Report as abusive

Anup wrote:
“—We expected it to be so, but being a matured & responsible Nation, we would not act impulsively & behave like warmongers, thus, even after being fully aware of the outcome, we opted for the diplomatic route, step by step- All Our Options are still Open…”
This maturity and responsibility came into India’s attitude on 28 May 1998 when Pakistan taught it a lesson by conducting 6 deadly and massive nuclear explosion piercing the Baluchistan mountain ranges with lethal force. India is like a beast which can only be controlled with a stick. Its good India is learning its lessons. India is sure acting mature, it better should. Time to behave like war mongerers have long gone.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

@ belligerent –
“There are secular forces in Pakistan too ”

Please can you name few ??

Posted by Anitha | Report as abusive

Umair wrote:
Few incidents of exchange of fire took place, few brave officers on the border did open fire on the Americans, the above article tells the rest of the story how the US underestimated Pakistan’s strength.
Ya right, we are so afraid of the Pakistan army that we don’t fly 200 drone missions a day in Pakistan territory and take care of Pakistan problems for them. I can’t think of a single other country that is so weak that it lets the US air force fly missions over it’s own boarders. Wait let me think Iran and India both cross Pakistan boarders to do the Pakistan army’s job for them. That is because your army is so weak that even its own citizens don’t respect them. You send 35,000 soldiers to Swat valley, a area about the size of Washington DC, and they still get their butts kicked by a army of about 1000. I am sure that other countries that border Pakistan have to cross into Pakistan just to keep law and order.

Posted by Chuck | Report as abusive

Umair

—India is not going to do a Gaza in Pakistan, it’s simply going to neutralize Pakistan (it may not exist in it’s present form) & put an end to the nuisance, so that it can spoil the expansionist plans of the ‘real enemy’ behind the screen, in who’s hand Pakistan is a puppet…
—If a nuke exchange has to happen, we are mentally prepared for it…

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

With regard to nuclear threat..let me tell you Gilani got it right when he said the political leadership in India is facing a crushing pressure from its public to act, in general to strike pakistan..and the public here in general knows there could be sacrifices to be made and knows we could be nuked. Let me tell you majority of them want just that to happen…as we know when pakistan has 250 nuke heads ready to be fired, India has 450 of them !! sucha mistake from pakistan would simply make India to wipe out to the last grass in pakistan..

Posted by Anitha | Report as abusive

Anitha

—Pervez Hoodbhoy is the name…

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

Umair,

I don’t think there will be a war, just the threat of a looming war is enough to destabilize Pakistan.

For example the recent shortage of fuel in Pakistan was because the Army needed to increase their fuel reserves in view of the increased hostility with India and that created a acute shortage. Strategies, Submarines and individual bravado don’t really help in War it always boils down to logistics.

In my personal not so humble opinion destabilizing Pakistan will not do the world any good. A lot of history has gone into creating what Pakistan is today, a lot of future has to be invested to resolve the situation gradually.

Rouge Pakistan generals and overall structure of ARMY/ISI is the root cause of the problem. Don’t you find it unusual that every time in the recent history Indo-Pak relationship has shown signs of improvement there have always been major terrorist incident to wash away the gains?

A friendly atmosphere between the two countries makes the Army/ISI redundant and reduces their clout and their ability to make profits from taking kick back of the large defense budget. They will do everything in their powers to prevent it.

Unfortunately Pakistan’s real war is the war within.

Posted by belligerent | Report as abusive

Chuck
200 drone missions a day? drones operated by US air force?
-where are you getting all this info? are you watching cartoon network?
The drones are operated by CIA, only few missions per week. Pakistan Air Froce chief of staff Air Marshall Tanvir stated Pakistan is capable of shooting drones, the government will decide to deal with US diplomatically or order the Pakistan Air Force to blow the drones out of the sky. Way back in 2002 Pakistan F-16 shot down an Indian operated and (IAI-Israeli Aircraft Industries) manufactured droned, attesting to the fact Pakistan’s capability of shooting drones.
So Pakistan allowing US drone attacks on millitants in tribal region is due to political reasons is precisely like Canada pulling out its troops of Afghanistan due to political reasons.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

@UMAIR,

Your stubborn defiance astounds me. You are like a little boy who stands by his favorite football team, even though they are getting the snot beat out of them and don’t have any good players.

Don’t kid your self, Pakistan would be flattened in 2 weeks, and become a non-recoverable society if it bore the brunt of the Indian Military Head on. Quit quoting your heroic accounts of what “would” happen. Paks just talk a big game, cause they can’t fight without using a nuke.

The Indian Boogeyman created by Pakistan to frighten its Population has done a hell of a job bank rupting Pakistan.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

There are too many players in the area for all the cards to land either on the side of India, or all on the side of Pakistan for that matter.

I was struck that Russia, in particular, sounded uncharacteristically even-handed when sizing-up the military tension between India and Pakistan in early December. Its foreign minister, Mr. Lavrov, had said that there was a military build-up on both sides of the border and that should end. There was also an article in RIA Novosti in late November or December that the Mumbai massacre could have been encouraged by an “outside power” (I believe that was the phrase). Granted this was not an official Russian voice, but interesting that a Russian would write something like that on that website.

The Russians could have some reasons to improve their ties with Pakistan. Perhaps they also would like access to Pakistani ports and a corridor from Central Asia. And I know that they are not happy with improving relations between India and the USA.

Even with the Sunni-Shia divide and the terrorist group, Jundallah, in Pakistan, Iran is not going to side with India in any conflict. India has become too thick with the USA for Iran’s taste. It wants, just like Russia and China, for the USA to leave Afghanistan. Just a side note, Pakistani authorities just 2 days ago arrested several members of the Jundallah group in Karachi.

Posted by Alethia | Report as abusive

“This maturity and responsibility came into India’s attitude on 28 May 1998 when Pakistan taught it a lesson by conducting 6 deadly and massive nuclear explosion piercing the Baluchistan mountain ranges with lethal force. India is like a beast which can only be controlled with a stick. Its good India is learning its lessons. India is sure acting mature, it better should. Time to behave like war mongerers have long gone.”

— Hey you missed out something important, Mr. A.Q. Stole the Nuke details from this employer…

Mind you dear, when India conducted Nuke test what was Pakistan and US doing? lol counting bangles on their hands?
You will encounter such an event if War will happen, we simply come under you nose and F-16… burn out before your gallant pilots has a chance to sit.

Comparing lions are concerned, can you name your breed? Keeping a dragon next to you don’t imagine of being a lion. lol this really made to laugh a loud @ midnight

Posted by Blogger | Report as abusive

Clutching at the straws!! Clutching at any straws.

Russians, Iranians, Hondurans, Nicaraguans, Fijians, Singaporeans, Australians, Monacans, Namibians are ALL very eager to develop very important relationships with the very important country known world over for only one thing. You know what.

Alethia,
“Pakistani authorities just 2 days ago arrested several members of the Jundallah group in Karachi….”

We have been fed-up listening such arrests, I tell you the next news, write down: “Pakistani authorities released all the arrested members of the Jundallah group in Karachi today, as there were no enough evidence but all were information”

The question is not about arresting, its about acting.
- Does Pakistan Government has guts to execute any one of them to show the world about their willingness and intentions to clear terrorists?

I ask you to be a neutral and think, if a person keeps on telling lies, when all know the country is blamed? How can you win a belief of other nations, forget about winning trust, its a long way journey.

Posted by Blogger | Report as abusive

Blogger:

I agree with you. Jundallah has killed or kidknapped several Iranian officials and they should be dealt with by the Pakistani authorities with an iron fist.

I also feel that Pakistan’s behavior after the Mumbai attacks has not been up to par. For example,the flip-flop on sending/not sending the head of the ISI was very poor indeed. The credibility of the government has gone very low, agreed.

But frankly, I do not like the talk on both sides saying that either country is all terrible. The conversation then gets unreal, non-factual and hostile. It’s not fair and it’s also not correct. (I have been a party to this hype in the past and I’m certainly not pointing to your posts).

Posted by Alethia | Report as abusive

Blogger,
You can wake up sleeping people. But you cannot “wake up” people who shut their eyes and pretend to sleep. (I am not referring to any of your posts)

Regards.

sanjeev,
have a question for u , are u provoking indians an pakistanis to go for a nuclear war for to keep ur job .

Posted by CJ | Report as abusive

Alethia,

” Jundallah has killed or kidnapped several Iranian officials and they should be dealt with by the Pakistani authorities with an iron fist.”

I wish you had said this unequivocally also for those responsible for mumbai attack.

As part of Indian diplomatic offensive after mumbai attack, the countries on India’s radar are US, Saudi and China and to certain extent UK. All these countries control the puppets operating in Pak.

As far as India Russia relations go, Russia was the first country with which India signed civilian nuclear agreement after NSG clearance. US agreement came much later. Here is a tit bit for you which could help you evaluating Russia’s position
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Dawoo d_directly_involved_in_Mumbai_attack_Rus sian_intel/articleshow/3856641.cms

I wont be surprised if Russia opens up supply route to NATO. Russia is also keen to end the Terrorism originating from Pakistan. Not many in Kremlin have forgotten Beslan. If that happens than Uncle Sam will be a little less generous with his aid to PAkistan.

Another recent news from Pakistan Observer
“Ahead of schedule delivery of first of three Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS) this week by Israel to India with dozens of technicians and electronic war fare advisors is a proof that New Delhi has not closed the option of adventurism.”

I guess GOI is taking steps to neutralize Paki nuclear weapons.

Posted by chirkut | Report as abusive

Dear Indian fellows
Any answer to this video where Talat Hussain Rips apart Indian allegations ?
http://pkpolitics.com/2009/01/16/live-wi th-talat-16-january-2009/

To get more information about developments in Pakistan and in the region, please visit

http://www.real-politique.blogspot.com

Chircut:

Any terrorist groups based in Pakistan, LeT or others, who are responsible for the killing of the innocents in Mumbai should be dealt with by the Pakistani authorities with an iron fist.

Yes, I agree with you that Russia would like to see any terrorism originating from Pakistan ended. But in the meanwhile, please remember that all countries look out for their strategic and geopolitical interests in the manner of realpolitik.

Posted by Alethia | Report as abusive

Chircut:

Here is an article written in December in the Russian website of RIA Novosti:

http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20081202/1186 43763.html

Posted by Alethia | Report as abusive

ALIETHA
The article says “Neither Pakistan nor India can benefit from mutual terrorist attacks, or an escalation of the conflict because of possible tragic results.” if we have to belive this article who could be the culprit. there is a resemblance between marriot hotel attack and mumbai attack. in both the attacks the target were americans isrealis and other foreigners. why? there was a requirement of internationlising the effect. who could benefit out of international terrorist attack. who could benefit out of such attacks. is it done by the terrorist in the region. if it is done by them will it not attract more US forces against them,

On the another angle, US is in need of giving boost to its soldairs fighting in afganistan. it needs to send more troops to afghan. it wants to subtantiate its presense in afghan. also there is a claim that US has created talibans and other mullas to fight USSR.

so if this article is correct, then the real truth as to why the attack was undertaken will never come to light

Posted by venkat | Report as abusive

Pakistan’s behavior reminds me a Lahore beggar which was pretending that he was blind, to my surprise he was putting something in his eyes secretly, which made them look very very pale. And I watched this on your GEO Channel.

This is exactly what pakistan doing at this time. Pretending that its a victim of terrorism and asking for IMF and WB aid. Dont you guys feel ashamed of you, Your economy is nowhere, you dont produce anything (Just terrorist), and you claim pakistan is dignified and honourable state.

You may be able to fool west for some time but not long. They found in last 7 years that you are nothing more that a false blind beggar. They know that you can even sell your country for money. Thats why they are attacking you with drones and you cant do anything.

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive

Venkat,
There is no mystery here.

Targeting, murdering Westerners and the Jewish people all were part of a drama staged to create the illusion this was an “Al-Qeda” attack and not an attack by Pakistan-based terrorist outfit. This will also set the stage for future “Al-Qeda” attacks in India.

India will continue “composite dialogue” with Pakistan and seek its help in “preventing” future “Al-Qeda” attacks. As a “victim of terrorism” itself, Pakistan will “help” India in solving and also continue to be a respectable member in the international community , and collect more money from the West for this noble service.

Evidence such as phone call trails, Pakistan made toothpaste etc were deliberately left to mock and provoke India. This was also done to claim if ISI had done this ISI wouldn’t be this stupid. Sponsor and supporter of terorism, the columnist Ejaz Haider has made exactly this claim in today’s Daily Times!!!

Rest assured, no one in the know buys any of this nonsense from Pakistan.

What was NOT planned? Ajaml Amir Kasab getting caught alive. Desperate plans were discussed in the last minutes to rescue him.

We Indians -all the 1.2 billion of us -owe it big time to constable Tukaram G Omble who took 30 bullets and got hold of Kasab. Omble deserves Bharat Ratna in my opinion.

Regards.

170 people get killled in terrorist attack or so called terrorist attack as there have been no independent enquiry beside what the superliars are saying. All the world leaders were up in arms condemning this hedious act and should rightfuly be condemned.

But why dont we see the double standard I mean over thousand people are killed in Gaza. But do NOT hear any condemnation infact we see statements of encourgment. So again the only thing I agree with Ali is West has double standards and lost any credibility they ever had. Then they would like to teach the Muslim world how to behave, live, learn. I simply say to them we are happy with what we have as you are. Live and let live and if the West is so eager to be the police man of the world at least have one rule for everyone.

These sort of actions in Gaza are the perfect properganda for mullahs to brainwash kids to commit acts of terorism in the eye of the west and acts of definace in the eyes of the muslim. Hamas is democraticly elected by the people of West so the World should accept them but when the true democracy produces these results. This is the punishment for being democratic which the world wants to spread.

Posted by Husssain | Report as abusive

Ali:

First of all, your abusive language is wrong.

Yes, I am an outsider for both Indians and Pakistanis, but I can tell you that I have been very critical of my own country’s role in Afghanistan, Pakistan, India and Iraq. My comments in these columns show it.

But don’t you think that Americans have a right to speak here also?
I have about the same control over my government’s foreign policy as you do over yours.

Yes, I have been a proponent that Pakistan is not a monolithically terrorist nation as some here have stated. I will not budge from that premise. Pakistan has talented people, has dignity and has a soul like all other countries. But I’m also supporting those who advocate cracking down on terrorists within Pakistan.

I can never know what it is like to be an innocent Kashmiri. Nor can I know what it is like to be one the Mumbai victims.

I apologize to you if I have hurt your feelings.

Posted by Alethia | Report as abusive

Husssein:
I agree with you. There are definitely double standards in the case of Gaza.

But please know that there are some Americans who are speaking out in support of the innocents in Gaza.
Go to The Huffington Post and read some of the articles there and you’ll hear some of us speak.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/

Posted by Alethia | Report as abusive

Hussain

—”so called terrorist attack…”

—No wonder you’ll are massacred like pigs everywhere…

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

Ali
“We Kashmiris arnt sikhs…”
—How dare you compare! Ofcourse not ! We Indian Punjabi’s are cultured, brave, compassionate & you Kashmiri muslims are cowards, traitors & wicked to the core..

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

In the heated debates of these blogs, discussion of the plight of innocent Kashmiris and their sufferings should be appreciated.

Project R/3 is an effort to Recognize, Remember and Revere.At present, there is no accurate and complete record of how many and who all sacrificed their precious lives to protect their fundamental right to live free.

This project is a first step in a series of steps to recognize the contribution and sacrifices of these heroic individuals.

HERE IS THE LINK:

http://www.kashmiri-pandit.org/projectr3  /index1.php

Correction:

I stated, “But I’m also supporting those who advocate cracking down on terrorists within Pakistan.”

No,I do not support any foreign intervention in Pakistan.

What I do support is the Pakistani government cracking down on terrorists in Pakistan.

Posted by Alethia | Report as abusive

@Ali,

With regards to Khalistan. Those men in the Golden Temple were terrorists. Khalistan should have been made in the POK. Instead Pakistan ISI was fueling the unrest, pre-planned in Pakistan, to destabilize the secular and democratic India.

Even Hamid Gul admitted supporting and giving weapons to those Sikh terrorists, who also blew up an Air India Plane. These men were found to be very corrupt. They had concubines, gold and meat foods in the basement of the Golden temple, which were found their, once raided by the authorities. The Sikhism in India was under attack by Pak fueled insurgency against India.

Let me be very clear, the Khalistan movement were terrorists pure and simple. Even in my familiy’s city of Jalandhar, they were extorting money from people and even threatening death and violence to their children if they did not pay for the “cause” of Khalistan.

These men were hungry for power and would murder anybody who got in their way. The Khalistani’s were not peaceful men.

Those Indian Khalistan traitors also threatened my family members. The following days, my grandparents’s farm, the Khalistani’s cut-off the heads of my Grandfather’s cattle, almost 30 of them.

Let me be very clear, the entire world and the Government of India did the full investigation on the Sikh Khalistan liberation organization and it was found out to be wholly and fully a very corrupt deceitful and criminal organization. These people stole, lied, drank alcohol, ate meat, murdered, intimidated people.

My family members in Jalandhar Punjab, even said how it scary it was leaving the house. They did not even feel safe in their own neighbourhood. The Khalistani’s were spreading hate, murder, theft, intimidation everywhere they went. The people joining them, were uneducated, poor people who felt powerful and emboldened when hurting others. Does this not sound a lot like when the Extremists in Pakistan recruit guys like Ajmal Kasab?

Ali, be careful, who you so carefully claim to support. The Sikh Khalistan movement is a terrorist organization. Even most Sikhs are very disenchanted in India and feel betrayed by the political power seekers in the Khalistan movement. What angered a lot of Sikh women was that these guys were coming to temples all across the world and asking for women to give up their Gold Jewelry.

They would walk out with buckets of Gold Jewelry and this was to be used to buy weapons. Instead, a lot of it was diverted into the pockets of those collecting it, as they saw the Khalistan movement as a personally lucrative endeavor.

Don’t forget, the Sikh temple temporarily quite being a holy place, as Sikhism, a beautiful and progressive religion became Hijacked so quietly by Pakistan, in an attempt to destablize India and they placed those Bhindranwale and company terrorists.

Just goto You tube and look for Bhindranwale…he promises and vows not to rest until he has killed 100,000 hindus with his own hands. Yet you support this guy and his so called Khalistan heros.

Don’t forget, the Prime Minister of India, is Sikh and a very respectable, educated and distinguished one at that.

India is not up for division. The proud Sikhs defended India against the Arab Invaders and their sacrifices are not being forgotten, is it any wonder, a Sikh is the head of India? We are proud of our cherished Sikh brothers, as they are the brave members of our family India and make us complete and whole.

Sikh’s don’t need to settle for such a lowly title of Khalistan when they can rule all of India. Manmohan Singh the Prime Minister is living testament to that.

The world governments do keep track of those who support terrorism, morally or directly.

This is a truly sick state of affairs for you to support the Khalistan Militants and does not look good for Pakistan’s future, if this is how people in Pakistan view the Khalistan issue.

You Ali, my dear friend, it is quite clear, condone and support terrorism. You should be careful who you claim to support, it just shows Pakistani’s as a society quietly condone terrorism against India and even the world at large.

Ali is a terrorist sympathiser.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

@Alethia,

While it seems you made a few friends in Pakistan, as a whole, Pakistani’s hate India. Reconcilition is only possible when people there quit preaching hate against the Indian “boogeyman” to their little children and quit corrupting their minds.

Guys like Ali support terrorists against India and call them brave. Ali, typical of most Pakistani’s have a sick mental pathological preoccupation of the destruction of India and hatred towards it. I don’t think he has ever denied that here either.

Reconciliation, from the heart is a secular, democratic concept very foreign to people in Pakistan.

Pakistan’s citizens have a supremicist mindset towards India and look down upon the Hindu Religion to the level of garbage. I don’t think Ali will deny that either.

It is sad so much energy in Pakistan is spread on military and hate. So many productive things could come out of Pakistan. When in India, energy is spent on educating one’s children and embracing the modern age, embracing humanity as a whole.

Alethia, you fail to recognize that Pakistan by its very nature and formation, was formed from hate, fear and jealously against India.

Alethia, you need to do a more proportionate job of convincing Pakistani’s that we are not their enemy. Their enemy is the those guys sitting on those pillows, spewing Hate in the name of God.

India is quite capable of reconciliation, as we have hundreds of cultures, languages and many religions, all under one flag. There can’t be reconciliation with Pakistan’s until they quit viewing the world through theocratic eyes.

Alethia, you need to induce more active pressure on our Pak friends to become moderate. And remind them that the “boogeyman” exists in their own back yard, not their neighbour’s backyard.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

Ali wrote:
The West wants to teach us how justice works how to be civilized when they have built everything on backs of SLAVES and ROBBED every country on this and used the most DESTRUCTIVE weapons nuclear on Japan.
How little you know of history, Pakistan used races of people as slaves long before America was even a country and they ended up exterminating them and their cultures, not giving them freedom like the west did. And why does the Japan thing bother you, it saved many more lives by ending the war early. Look at Japan now, one of Americas strongest friends and has the second biggest GDP in the world. Why are you so afraid of being civilized, is it being civilized means that you have to give your women freedom and only have one wife, or is it that you would actually have to do something constructive with your life, instead of living in the past. What has Pakistan contributed to the world in the last 1000 years, please name one. If Pakistan is such a great country and great place to live why is it so primitive, repressive, unhealthy, and such a poor place to live. They world has passed Pakistan by while India has embraced civilization that is why 10 years from now India will own Pakistan.

Posted by Chuckc | Report as abusive

To the Indians posting on this story:
Don’t worry about what Pakistan is saying. They way it is going and how terrorists and Taliban is taking it over, its days are numbered. I feel sorry for sensible people in Pakistan but I don’t see a future for Pakistan.

Posted by Aar Bee | Report as abusive

Ali:
Why do you always abuse people ? Your madrassa must be teaching you this.

Whenever somebody tries to enlighten your evil soul, you start abusive language. Probably you should be banned from reuters (Is there any admin there). If you don’t have any logic don’t write anything here. You don’t have to comment, if you have no idea whats going on here.

If you are against west on this double standard attitude why is your country is so dependent of Grants and Aid.

Why are you helping them on war on terror. You go begging to everyone and then badmouth them here.

Well, the LAHORE BEGGAR I was talking about was better than you. At least he prays for the people who give him money (And also who don’t give anything) while you backbite USA and West on a open forum.

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive

We have had a very interesting debate with a whole range of views from across the spectrum. One reader said the whole idea of Pakistan searching for strategic depth was outdated now it had achieved some kind of nuclear parity after its tests. Another pointed out that India’s laws didn’t quite allow it overseas military deployment unless in a peacekeeping role, while still another brought up the issue of India already maintaining a light presence in Tajikistan and so there was a precedent to it.

We welcome such a debate and a cross section of views – but again let us stick to a civil discourse and debate positions not individuals.

Posted by Sanjeev Miglani | Report as abusive

To Global Watcher:

Your desire to reach out to Pakistanis is commmendable. However, I don’t share your perception that Pakistanis hate Hindus and India. Perhaps some do, but I have rarely met any, if ever, who do. And I’ll be frank, I have met more Hindus and Indians who hate Pakistanis.

But I can tell you more acurately how I feel. I love the culture, the people, the music, the religiosity, the food, the manners and the soul of both India and Pakistan. Yes, I have tended to side with Pakistan on some points, but I will always want both countries to come very close together and in harmony. No 2 countries have culture as close as India and Pakistan. None. Even Afghanistan is not as close to Pakistan as is India.

I now will stop here so as to give respect to the esteemed author of this column, Mr. Sanjeev Miglani, and suggest that all of us return to the subject of strategic alignments.

And perhaps the conversations on these columns will somehow help in creating some better understanding.
God orders everything…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ChSzECkd ew&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJemWLDeo Jo&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orUcYjXki dE&feature=related

Posted by Alethia | Report as abusive

Well the Indian military presence in Afghanistan-if they are for the so called strategic encirclement of our confused neighbor-has no strategy at all in the first place. Any misadventure by India will only result in more and more antagonistic activities in Pakistan against India. As a result it will make our neighbor only more and more unstable and Indians should realize only a stable Pakistan helps for the prosperity of India. Most of the Muslims-I am not saying all- give the Muslim brotherhood a high priority compared to the Nation. Any activities against Muslims will only fuel the hate mongers’ hatred spreading activities,for example the terrorists plotting against India always used oppression against their community as an excuse to kill innocent civilians,like they gave an excuse for the Mumbai attacks that they were the avenging the Muslims’s killing and finally ended up killing a lot of Muslims. The one sane solution from the Indian side is to uplift the Muslims in India and bringing the criminals-who had perpetrated crimes against them before -to justice. As for our foreign relations,apart from demanding justice for the Mumbai attacks,it is better to ignore Pakistan internal problems completely and let us not follow a tit for tat policy.

M.J.Akbar rightly put in “India and Pakistan aren’t neighbors,they are worlds apart” .Pakistan is living in its own delusionary world that it is doing a great job in Islamising the State and that it is a forerunner in the rights for the Muslims in Kashmir. The reality is Indian Kashmir is loads better in Human rights compared to the SWAT valley. An opinion article from the Dawn by Shandana Khan Mohmand says like this “Pakistan needs to accept a very harsh reality — it is not the equal of India, and the belief that we can be compared has stunted our development no end. We cannot win a war against it, we cannot compare the instability of our political system to the stability of theirs, we cannot hope to compete economically with what is a booming economy well on its way to becoming a global economic power, and we certainly cannot compare the conservativeness of our society to the open pluralism of their everyday life.” .Only a Pakistan realizing the true nature of all of its its problems and working sanely for solving the problems will make both the neighbors more stronger in the troubled future.

http://www.dawn.com/2009/01/10/op.htm#1

Posted by mitchell | Report as abusive

mitchell
—Whether Pakistan falls apart or stabilizes is none of our headache – but Mumbai must be answered – hook or by crook,

Posted by Anu | Report as abusive

Anu,
Yes Mumbai must be answered but wisely and not at the price of Pakistan becoming an Iraq ,not at the price of using a nuke on any side.

Posted by mitchell | Report as abusive

Mitchell

—Sick of this Nuke thing- If Nuke it be so be it!Wisdom demands that we don’t leave this legacy to our future gen.x ,as did by our peers…Pakistan is built on the blood of innocents,it’s end would be as horrific,if not more, comparing it with the great Mesopotamian civilization is an insult to Iraq,

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

“—Sick of this Nuke thing- If Nuke it be so be it!…
…Pakistan is built on the blood of innocents”

This mentality is the Alpha and Omega of evil. It is an abomination to all of humankind.

Your “stategic depth” would shamelessly be built on the blood of innocents, indeed.

I will always feel that the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki is a stain on my country and we should forever ask forgiveness to the people of Japan…

Posted by Alethia | Report as abusive

The most successful program is Pakistan has been the demonisation of Hindus and India over the past sixty years.
This is now so complete, it is too late to change anything.A handful of Pakistanis realise it, if they speak up they are branded “traiters”.Pakistanis with university Degrees ( ? educated !) believe that India wants to take over their country ! This is beyond the absurd. Who in their right mind would want the headache that is Pakistan.
I am convinced of one event that is inevitable: at least one of the nuclear weapon will be dropped on India, if not on Delhi, then there will be a flurry of activity, India will be persuaded not to respond. If it is dropped on Delhi, then there will be response in kind, because of decapitation of political leadership .
The “infidel hindus” will die and go to hell, the collateral muslims deaths, they will all go to heaven and the virgins. I hope I am wrong, I hope this will not happen.

To all my Indian and Pakistani friends who want to use nukes against each other,imagine how it would be if we and our families weren’t alive tomorrow just because there was some harsh decision on the side of our Governments. Why should we perish for the incompetency of our rulers? This is the same error Bush had committed while invading Iraq,why should so many innocent families vanish to a rubble just to pave way for some madman’s policies? Weapons of mass Destruction will make this beautiful green plane unsafe not only for us,but also for our future generations.

Posted by mitchell | Report as abusive

Alethia

–Cut-Off this creepy \’holier than thou\’ morality BS! We Indian\’s are an advanced culture & can do without cheap advice & crocodile tear shredding apologists-like you- who are the parasites that gleefully live on the sufferings of others…some good vs evil dogma spreading neo-missionaries (sic)

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

mitchell

—What do you think all those Nukes worldwide are manufactured for-4th of July? they are made , so they’ll be used – the sooner the better for those who survive…as it is our humanity is mentally sick- & almost irreparable, As far as India goes- these ‘thousand cuts’ by Pakistan is getting unbearable, – we are on the verge of a breakdown, every fortnight we go thru the so called trauma you are so waxing eloquently… Mumbai is highlighted because of it’s Western victims…

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

Anup wrote”
-”As far as India goes- these ‘thousand cuts’ by Pakistan is getting unbearable, – we are on the verge of a breakdown, every fortnight we go thru the so called trauma you are so waxing eloquently…”
Yes, wou will have to pay for 1971 war. As I said earlier, Pakistan has never surrendered. I hate to state this, but it is fact. Despite all Pakistan’s efforts to peacefully co-exist with India, it seems Pakistan’s existence was never accepted wholeheartedly by India.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Even though Bangladesh is not bordering Pakistan, I wonder how the new government there will affect the stategic situation of Pakistan.

A Pakistani journalist, Sikander Hyatt, has earlier posted his website here and in it he makes a very serious attempt at Pakistan-Bangladesh reconciliation.

The new government in Bangladesh is said to be more pro-Indian than its predecessor and seems more likely to cooperate on anti-terrorism with India. Does this mean that it will free-up India to concentrate more attention on its western border with Pakistan? Wonder if this factor will be significant or not for the security situation on the whole northwestern Subcontinent.

Posted by Alethia | Report as abusive

Umair–Our dilemma is that even after being subjected to this heinous terrorism style of proxy war, we can’t reconcile ourselves to stoop as low as you undignified Pakistani’s- to protect the high values of our ancestors, ancient culture & esteemed race, we wouldn’t sacrifice all this by spilling the blood of innocent civilians in the cowardly & dastardly manner in which you’ll do- You’ll have nothing to loose as you’ll possess none of it- we do not have the previlige of character assassinating you’ll- you’ll don’t have one…

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

I stated on the subject of using nuclear weapons: “This mentality is the Alpha and Omega of evil.”

This is a retraction of my use of the phrase “Alpha and Omega”, since it does have a reference to the Christian religion. Its use was an unintended mistake on my part.

Suffice to say that advocating the use of nuclear weapons, past, present and future, is wrong.

Posted by Alethia | Report as abusive

Mr. Sanjeev Miglani:

Though I am not above criticism myself when it comes to veering off the subject, wonder if you please would step in again to remind our commenters here to avoid character assassinations and to stick to the subject at hand.

Posted by Alethia | Report as abusive

Anup
I know you are hurt. So are many in Pakistan including me. We all should agree that terrorism is a common enemy and that we need to unite and stop accusing each other. If India and Pakistan will not have an improved relationship, it will make things worse.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

umair

—It was going beautiful…we kept suppressing the Mumbai train blast/jaiur/delhi/ahmedabad… now we are facing the danger of ‘hindu terrorism’ more lethal as it will destroy the very siritual fabric of our nation,then the Mumbai attacks-mocking at us- & worst the local populace instead of after painfully establishing democracy, falls back to the cunning army…our options are drying faster than we imagined…

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

It is unfortunate some pretentious people from outside the Indian subcontinent are indulging in anti-India tirade in this web site. They pose as very enlightened, wise people. But their hypocrisy is truly nauseating.

Actually though they are totally clueless about the ground realities. Thus they don’t contribute to solving the problems but aggravating it.

Their hypocrisy is nauseating since they say the people of a successful, progressive secular democracy is worse than the people of a country founded on religious exclusivity, a country that has promoted hatred and violencce for 61 years of its existence.

The only reason Indians even think about Pakistan is their sponsorship of terrorism in India. To say Indians go around harbouring lots of hatred towards Pakistan is absurd.

Indians don’t have a self-image of themselves as anti-Pakistan but that is exactly what people in Pakistan live for.

For example, no state in India has text books and a subject called “India studies” where we are taught to hate a people belonging to the neighbouring country or any particular religion.

It is very easy to appear nice , say nice things about Hindus and India to outsiders. At the same time recruit and sponsor jihadi terror in India , and completly deny the existence of such terrorism infrastructure in Pakistan.

In summary, these pretentious, misinformed people promote and cause more misunderstanding than anything good.

@Alethia,

Your level of naivety astounds me. While your conciliatory efforts are bar none here, you will see a larger number of Indians compared to Paks, naturally speaking out against each other, simply because there are 1.2billion Indians and 160million Paks, that is simply explained. There are also more English speaking Indians than there are Paks, which also explains a greater percentage of Indians can converse with you than Pakistani’s can, just look at the literacy rate. So you have larger population, by almost 7.1 to 1, of which that 7.5, a greater number can communicate better with Westerners. Of course you are going to have a skewed view that there is greater animosity from Indians than Paks. The actual reality is quite reversed.

While culturally there are a lot of similarities, food language and festivals, etc. The real divide is shown once you bring religion into the mix.

You are very evasive and afraid of losing your liberal status when you don’t answer my question regarding how Paks look down at Hindu’s religion. This racist hate filled ideology must end.

You are wise, please explain to me how India can reconcile with a people who generally look down upon the Religion in India and the people following it, as deserving a status lower than the lowest common denominator?

I have not seen you convince one Pak, that all religions are equal before God and equal in respect. This assertion is very key for reconciliation. This is ther very reason the Indian subcontinent was occupied for 800 years by the Arab invaders. This failure of yours to recognize the gross inequity one holds in his heart towards the other is your grand failure and why some folks here laugh at your blindly guided conciliatory efforst and you lose credibility.

In Hinduism, the religious belief is not racist and does not preach others are wrong and that one human is lower than another, based on their belief system.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

Chuck—

Surely you have been waiting a long time for my reply so open your eyes WIDE and switch your brain in gear and start reading oh yeh get a pen and make notes if you wish might actually help you to digest the information lol.

You said what has Pakistan contributed to the world in the last 1000 years, you fool Pakistan has only been independent for the last 60 years or so so please get a bit more knowledge before you start writing garbage. Pathetic I mean I thought I had enough on my plate teaching the idiots but now I have to enlighten you too.

In the short history of Pakistan (Land of the pure). Pakistan has achived quite a lot for example in sports, Culture, actions on world stage, Played a mojor role in bringing the soviet union down (while india was their puppet) contribution to the UN, Nuclear power, Best armed forces and most of all a country that brought together the West n China. For a small poor country to have the achieved that much is extrodinart and yes I admit there are problems but so does any other country has them. For example the guys who left beeston/Leeds and blow up buses in London doesthat mean the British Government is incompotent or does NOt control some parts. The answer is NO these are non state actors and sleeping cells brainwashed to only enhance the terrorist intrests if they have any.

Infact it was Pakistani inteligence which provided a lot of inteligence which have pervented few attacks in the West. So the bottom line is Pakistan is commited to rooting out terrorism and our army has sacrificied lifes for that more then anyother country in the World. How dare people still can lift their head and point finger at my beautiful country.

USA is a superpower and even she needs help of its allies to fight this war against terrorist. I mean Pakistan a poor country at the forefront of this war surely we need the International community to help us. But instead we make gains in the FATA NWFP but another drone attack puts the whole Pakistani effort to waste. Those drones attacks not all kill inocent tribal people how do you expect to win the war on terror when the people who we need you are bombing anyway.

If you think you can do better without the helP OF pakistan then good luck, for example how far did india gets by being a war monger instead of working together to bring the people to the gallows who commited those hedious crimes. More to come dont worry enough medication for all of you for time being and especially idiots…

Posted by Ali | Report as abusive

1) Please stop the lie that pakistan and inda share a common culture. May be punjab, delhi and UP might. but these 3 states are not India. A tamil or a naga culture is as similar to pakistani culture as that a Mexican.

2) Nobody in India cares and will care about pakistan if they stop their terrorist attacks in india. We dont care what pakistan in saying about terrorism, we care what she is doing about it.

3) We dont want nuclear war but a nuclear arsenal should not stop us from seeking justice of terrorist acts. And we would do all it requires to prevent such future terrorist attacks. We have a nuclear doctrine of no first use. but i assure you that in case of nuclear war we will be the final user of nuclear weapon.

4) Pakistan is as much land of pure as Satyam is’Truth’.
Unless pakistan stops using terrorism as a tool of its foreign policy there would probably be no worthwhile peace between India and Pakistan. And NO; absence of war is not peace!

5) Regarding Bangladesh. Some islamic groups in bangladesh, working closely with ISI, are linked with bomb blasts in india. Also terrorist in recent times are using Bangladesh as a transit route for people and money. The new bangladeshi regime will help in choking this transit route.

6) We are proud of our Sikhs/ punjabi. No community is so much loved and recognized throughout india as the Sikhs.

Posted by chirkut | Report as abusive

Here we go again the same idiots the same blame game the same mind set of hindu fanatic and want to see greater India. Told you fools it will never happen and wake up and start living in real world.

Some idiot has said that Pakistan was born out of terrorism? If you wake up and start thinking and looking out the bos you will understand. Jinnah was in congress with the gandu n the boys but when jinnah asked for Muslim rights, economic rights, religious rights and other demands. He did NOT get a satisfactory answer which could assure him that we Muslim could exist with the New India which can NOT wait to re-write the historu of hindus ruling muslims. That when jinah moved the muslim league and become a head of it and with the help of Ilama Iqbal the poet the dream of having a muslim homeland become reality.

Jinah was absolutly CORRECT

Posted by Ali | Report as abusive

Ali.
From my which point you think i want a greater india?
ME for one is happy that we have kicked out the bigots from india and gave them a separate land which they can ruin and make hell for themselves. Be happy with you rot and dont spread that rot to MY country.

Jinnah was a power hungry demagogue. He was a wine drinker with a connoisseur for Pork. What a muslim to establish Papistan…..ops Pakistan! Jinnah was absolutely correct in on things and that is gauging your rat brain.

Jinnah never fought for independnce. When everyone in the country was fighting the british for independence that scum was creating divisions in the independence movement. Britain gave up Raj because of various factors but Muslim league was not one of them.

Jinnah’s farcical dream of muslim homeland fell apart when sane muslims choose to remain in India than to migrate to Pakistan and be called “Mohajir”. So much for muslim home land! And then the bodyblow to the muslim homeland stupidity came through the seperating for Bangladesh from the clutches of Paki punjabis.

I happy with my india i have and my only request to you is to let us live in peace. Don’t send your brainwashed zombies to my country. You have already made a mess of your country. now stop messing around with mine.

Posted by chirkut | Report as abusive

Chirkut,
Your comments are right on target except there is one factual error. Jinnah was a connoiseur of whiskey not wine.

About the role of Britain, it is a story of poetic justice. What you sow what you reap. Now they are reaping in Londonistan.

Regards.

Victor :
You missed one thing, Jinnah realized later that making of Pakistan was a big error and he died of this guilty complex in a year.

I know some pakis say it was workload which killed him.

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive

To Global Watcher:

Thank you for your very thoughtful comments. You have presented some very complex questions and I will try my best to answer them. I don’t know if I can answer all of them, but here goes.

I believe very much in tolerance, that is the center of my being. And religious tolerance is paramount. That’s why I am reluctant to criticize any one’s religion. But I have less inhibition about criticising my own religion. There is a saying that people who live in glass houses should never throw stones. So I can agree with another commenter that Christian missionaries in India are wrong in their approach. Faith is something having to do with free will, not force or by bribery.

Yes, I have said I have seen more animosity from Indians toward Pakistanis than visa versa. I haven’t said that to hurt people’s feelings, but there was some question here on that and I reported my personal observations. Yes, there is validity in your highlighting statistical analysis so please couple that offset with observation and one gets a less distinct picture. You are correct.

But if we are on the subject of statistics and scientific investigation, maybe it’s good that there is a naive view like mine here in this column. Doesn’t it appear logical that Indians and Pakistnis are too close to the problems to be dealt with? Perhaps you should welcome the views of an “outsider” as a challenge? But I do think that I have some understanding of the culture (I hope you think so too). And I have visited both India and Pakistan.

Back to religion. It’s hard for me. I respect Hinduism. I respect Islam. I respect Sikhism. And the others. Yes, I do have some criticisms, but I am reluctant to express them publically because of respect for people’s religion.

But here’s what I am for: Free will to chose your religion. Males and females getting equal education It’s OK if they study separately. Tolerance for other religions on an equal basis.

I cannot convince the Pakistanis that you talk about to think that all religions are equal as I believe or you believe. I can only set an example. You can change your thoughts in an instant, set an example, but people are free to follow your example or not. One cannot extract things from people. They must find out on their own. We can also, by the way, forget the pains of history and forgive and forget. Forgiveness is a vlaue in all religions.

If people laugh at me because they think I am naive, then let it be. I am the one who has to live with myself, not them. And I am entitled to my beliefs.

So, Dear Global Watcher, thank you for asking and being such an honest and intellectual friend. And in honor of you, I dedicate this poem which I wrote:

The time has come for a new day,
Because this weary world needs to find a new way,
When every heart will be unfurled,
To beat in unison across the world,
Wherever we may go,
From the mountains of Colorado,
To the walls of Jericho.

The night holds the promise of a new dream,
That each of us will see the other innocent and pristine,
And each name will be a star,
Giving each bearer the distinction and honor we were born to acquire,
Like a living talisman,
From the lanes of Omdurman,
To the fields of Panmunjom.

It is, indeed, a dream we can have right now,
That West and East should have no meaning anyhow,
With all Humankind brought together through a lovely mingling,
Setting each soul transparent and tingling,
Where, then, should we do our unmasking?
From the temples of Understanding,
To the streets of No One Asking.

Posted by Alethia | Report as abusive

To Global Watcher:

One more thing, you asked the following of me:
“…please explain to me how India can reconcile with a people who generally look down upon the Religion in India and the people following it, as deserving a status lower than the lowest common denominator?”

My answer: Visit Pakistan. If you possible can, please do it and your question will be answered.

Posted by Alethia | Report as abusive

To Global Watcher:

They say the third try is the successful try, so I have decided to answer your most pointed question, which was:

“I have not seen you convince one Pak, that all religions are equal before God and equal in respect. This assertion is very key for reconciliation. This is ther very reason the Indian subcontinent was occupied for 800 years by the Arab invaders. This failure of yours to recognize the gross inequity one holds in his heart towards the other is your grand failure and why some folks here laugh at your blindly guided conciliatory efforst and you lose credibility.”

My answer: Yes, there are some Pakistanis who harbor a chauvanistic notion that their religion is superior to that of Hindus. I have heard that both as a complaint from Hindus and have heard it said myself.
But Global Watcher, there is a corresponding cultural superiority on the part of Indians which Pakistanis complain about and I have heard it myself. That is that Muslims are “outsiders” and only “recent” arrivals and that Hindus are the “rightful” owners of the lands of the Subcontinent.

These are the two diametrically opposed attitudes that are causing the friction. And they are both unrealistically chauvanistic.

You asked and these are my observations.
If reconciliation is to occur, both sides will have to give-up those ideas.

Posted by Alethia | Report as abusive

Chirkut:

Thanks for your comments.
In your:
“1) Please stop the lie that pakistan and inda share a common culture. May be punjab, delhi and UP might. but these 3 states are not India. A tamil or a naga culture is as similar to pakistani culture as that a Mexican.”

What does “May be punjab, delhi and UP might. but these 3 states are not India.” means? Can you explain?
Regards,

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Alethia,

You are comparing apples with oranges. Hindu extremist say that is our land move out. Muslim extremist say you (other religionist) have no right to exist and you can at best be a second grade citizens (Dimmis). Are the two things parallel?

Rajeev i agree i have not written my comment very cogently. What i meant to say was that only a part of India share some cultural ties with Pak, and not India as a whole. This over generalization does not corroborate with multi cultural identity of India.

Posted by chirkut | Report as abusive

chirkut

—Pakistani’s have forsaken the sub-continent culture & denied their ancestors, they inspire to be called the descendants of Arabs, turks, mongols etc…but not India.

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

Chirkut:

Thanks for the clarification.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

@Alethia.
It is very interesting to see you write essays here with no facts. You have only seen pakistanis who are educated and have the dreams of being a westerner, and so your views are limited. I have been working with most of the nationalities in an non-west territory and I know what pakistanis and indians feel for each other. The countries have been born out of hatred, and it had remained so for years. There had been efforts done to have warmth in relationships between these countries, but always we see back stabbing from Pakistan, and the most recent one is Mumbai. So as an Indian, I personally do not want any kind of relation, even at diplomatic level with our this neighbour. Because it would be a vain effort.
And so called Ally on War of Terror, that Pakistanis are proud of, is just nothing other than that US knows the terror elements are inside Pakistan and so to fight them inside this soveriegn country, they have to call them ally, other wise it will be another iraq or afganistan, nothing more.
Now, why you see both countries formed on consecutive days, one is seeing economic boom and is no more begging for aid from “friendly” and international bodies, and other one is dependant on it? Educate your people that is what making a differnce here.
From your writing it makes me feel you reside in US and so I donot know your ethnic background that take you to this serious conversations here. However, just one question have you been able to talk to pakistanis and Indians who are living in countries other than US and Europe, about how they feel for each other? Stop thinking America is world and what you see from that perspective is ultimate truth.
What our neighbourhood have is Polished, Western Dressed, Silk Tie wearing, Western Educated Men and Women come infront of TV cameras to sympathise and justify themselves for their hidden agenda of harbouring terror elements.

Posted by Sjose | Report as abusive

The hour has struck
For this (in)-humanity to be Nuked
Then every black-heart shall be exposed
& be washed in their own blood
No corner to secure, no cave to hide
From pole to pole.

Let the night devour all-meek & mighty
make way for new ray of hope & reality

A last compassionate forewarning
Reform or Perish!

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

Well the encirclement idea has inched 1 step forward with Russian president replying favourably to karzai’s request for military aid to Afghanistan from Russia.. Russia has also specified it is ready to do more just than military aid to bring peace in afghanistan..and that could be allowing NATO trucks thru Russia..

Posted by Anitha | Report as abusive

Anitha

—That’s music to our ears, Smart move by Karzai…

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

@Alethia,

Thanks kindly for your responses. You have almost gotten my point of view but not quite, perhaps I was not clear enough.

Indians, are accepting of any body living in their country, India has a constitution that says everyone is equal, however in Pakistan, non-muslims do not have the same legal constitutional rights, because by definition, Pakistan is not a democracy, it is a religious Islamic nation, to follow sharia law, but that is according to its constitution.

The root cause of frustration buy many Indians is that many in Pakistan, with the exception of the few forward thinking, educated latte-sipping friends of yours in Pakistan, do not view people of a different religion as equal human beings.

That is the purest way I can explain it. How can one claim to want peace, reconciliation and among other things, if one views the other as an inferior human being, because they practice a different religion?

In my ideal world, everybody on earth is a human being FIRST, before they are identified by any religion, culture, nationality, etc. When you have this mindset, it gives rise to democracy and secularity and inclusive societies and a whole host of concepts like “politcal correctness”, “kindness”, “telling the truth”, “personal responsibility” are foreign or perceived as weaknesses by those societies, which are not secular or democratic.

Shame based societies do not honour the basic right of the human being, but put identify the right of their existence and their identity with a religion, creed, or ownership to the state first.

Here is the problem. While you hang your hat on a few good apples the rest of the basket is tainted and it does not view people as human beings first. This gives rise to all sorts of abuses in the name of God. I don’t need to list them all here, everybody knows enough of what I am trying to get across here.

Re-concilation between peoples happens when people can say,

“Regardless of religion, our God we worship, our nationality, our race, our culture, we are equal human beings first, equal in respect, equal in our right to live and exist and equal to be entitled to have inalienable rights, which are inherent to be a part of humankind.”

I believe the concept of democracy and secularity is like an infinite ocean current. Those going against the current will drown in their own ignorance and will be consumed by the sands of time.

Of the many drowning in their own ignorance, we have seen this to be a part of the so-called war on terror.

It is my hope that Pakistan will join and swim with the “current”, I mentioned above, or it will drown. But there does not seem any strong, credible indications of that.

The people of Pakistan must reject the RETROGRADE mindset.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

Strategic encirclement? of PAKISTAN?

Have you guys lost it? Because I have a message for the Indians who read this column & get smug…

Beware the unstable neighbour.If the Afghan conflict can spill over into Pakistan & destabalize our country, then IMAGINE what the destabalization of Pakistan can do to india.If you try & take us down rest assured weel take you down with us…nuff said

Posted by I love Pakistan | Report as abusive

The only way to keep Pakistan honest, is for India to setup a very robust and extensive Missile Shield program, to repel missile attacks from Pakistan. India should definately as the U.S. for this, as an overall regional strategy against terrorism from Pakistan, in case Pakistan’s government falls to the Taliban.

That will most certainly guarantee the fear that Pak must remain honest and friendly, whether the Uniforms, or the guys sitting on the pillows are in power.

Diplomacy direct does not work with Pak, it takes tugging the collars of every UN member country by India to tell Pakistan to clean its act up. It is only then, that Pakisan must be co-erced and pressured by the international community before they ever do the right thing over there.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

U.S. regional military chief General David Petraeus said on Tuesday agreements had been reached for new transport routes into northern Afghanistan through Central Asia.
“There have been agreements reached and there are transit lines now and transit agreements for commercial goods and services in particular, that includes several of the countries in Central Asia and Russia,” Petraeus told reporters.

The U.S. Central Command chief visited Kyrgystan, Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan and Tajikistan in recent days where he said he discussed the possibility of increasing supplies for Western forces in Afghanistan.

He did not give details but said the new routes into Afghanistan were important in view of a build-up of U.S. forces there this year.

Posted by Anitha | Report as abusive

You have to want peace and freedom for others to have it for yourself.

Posted by jason | Report as abusive

@indians—-with the Obama’s inaugural speech it is clear that whose side USA is, despite indians effort to defame PAKISTAN the amount of aid against War on terrors has increase 50%, and we all know that US is not stupid enough to give more aid to a country which is not its ally and not help it against its war on terror. So stop making stories and come to reality, all your efforts to destroy Pakistans’ integrity have failed. Now your government have plan to gain some money through auction of things it purchased to show PAKISTAN involvement in mumbai incident.

Posted by Peace | Report as abusive

The Indians on this board have a very caricatured view of Pakistan and are making false claims, such as Pakistanis view non-Muslims are sub-human. That is not true.

Getting back to the topic on hand, how does a few trucks through Central Asia equal the strategic encirclement of Pakistan? Isn’t this more Indian fantasies?

Pukhtoons will never let Indian’s so called strategic designes take foothold in Afghanistan.When Mayor of Kabul,Karzai departs, so would Indian strategy. I was born after creation of Pakistan and proud as one can be of one’s country.d
Mr. Jinnah was right – Muslim & Hindu cultures have nothing in common. So, my Indian neighbours, you enjoy your “Slumdog Millionaire” which is the true reflection of your society.Leave us alone, we can take care of our problems.

Posted by Alam Khan | Report as abusive

Pukhtoons will never let Indian’s so called strategic designes take foothold in Afghanistan.When Mayor of Kabul,Karzai departs, so would Indian strategy. I was born after creation of Pakistan and proud as one can be of one’s country.d
Mr. Jinnah was right – Muslim & Hindu cultures have nothing in common. So, my Indian neighbours, you enjoy your “Slumdog Millionaire” which is the true reflection of your society.Leave us alone, we can take care of our problems.

- Posted by Alam Khan

–For you guys, the whole country is one big slum and for that too people are fighting?

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

I am pakistani and can say with proud NOW “PAKISTAN is greatest country of the world.and it can NEVER comes to end.we no need any kind of securities,we need only unity and spirit.
NO DOUBT WE ARE ONE NATION AND NOBODY CAN BREAK US.
INSHAALLAH.
and it is only abelieve of true PAKISTANI.

Posted by QUTIE FELLOW | Report as abusive