India, Pakistan locked in their animosities

January 20, 2009
 A few readers have pointed out an article that appeared in Pakistan’s Dawn newspaper several days ago that urges Pakistanis to begin thinking out-of the-box, stop being defensive and face up to harsh realities.
 
It is interesting because it stands out in the feverish, and often involved reporting that has characterised media in both India and Pakistan following the Mumbai attacks. The author, Shandana Khan Mohmand, who is a doctoral candidate at the University of Sussex, says Pakistan must really accept the reality that it is not the equal of India, a belief that he thought had stunted its development
 
“We cannot win a war against it, we cannot compare the instability of our political system to the stability of theirs, we cannot hope to compete economically with what is a booming economy well on its way to becoming a global economic power, and we certainly cannot compare the conservativeness of our society to the open pluralism of their everyday life,” he writes.
 
Pakistan’s most beneficial economic strategy would be to get in on the boom next door in India, he argues. But for this, “we need to think outside the box – outside the two-nation theory, outside the box of the violence of 1947, and outside the box of the ill-conceived wars of the last six decades.”
 
Strong words those, and one that apply to both nations walled off from each other nursing their animosities over the years. As political commentator M.J.Akbar wrote in the Times of India, India and Pakistan aren’t neighbours, they are worlds apart. He believes the two fully turned away from each other after the 1965 war. ”Walls of regulation were raised to block knowledge, and then vision. If you do not see a neighbour, he is not a neighbour. There are no neighbours in the huge apartment blocks of Mumbai, only adjacent numbers.”
 
Is it any wonder then that a popular Pakistani comedian who made thousands laugh on an Indian TV show has had to return home  after being threatened in a Mumbai studio?
 
[Reuters pic of India and Pakistani border guards)
 
95 comments

We welcome comments that advance the story through relevant opinion, anecdotes, links and data. If you see a comment that you believe is irrelevant or inappropriate, you can flag it to our editors by using the report abuse links. Views expressed in the comments do not represent those of Reuters. For more information on our comment policy, see http://blogs.reuters.com/fulldisclosure/2010/09/27/toward-a-more-thoughtful-conversation-on-stories/

No matter what dawn article is saying, all sane voices will be killed in Pakistan. Seems like pakistan is living in a delusion.

I appreciate the comedian shakeel, who made us laugh with his vulgar jokes on a family channel.

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive

Sanjeev,
Truly.
”Walls of regulation were raised to block knowledge, and then vision. If you do not see a neighbour, he is not a neighbour. There are no neighbours in the huge apartment blocks of Mumbai, only adjacent numbers.”

Pakistan or India should shred some budget to build “The Great Wall Of South-India” across Indo/Pak Border.
Who knows Pakistan would bag one Wonder of the World competing to India even there…. lol

Posted by Blogger | Report as abusive

The wall has been built by India, exploited by the Pakistani
establishment for electorate gains, and is too stand till eternity when Kashmir is finally free

Posted by syed | Report as abusive

I feel India would have been a safer place if there was an actual wall instead of a cultural wall. Pakistani’s believe that due to a common religion between people, it gives them a right to meddle in Afghanistan, Bangladesh, India, Sri Lanka etc. They have to get out of this mentality and start talking business to develop their country. Kashmir was never withing Pakistani territory, nor was Gujarat or Malegaon. Keep crying.

Posted by Jerry | Report as abusive

Honestly speaking the article will only generate hate response against the writer and
India. Not all Pakistani will welcome this article, remember Najam Sethi.

Posted by Pritash Chaudry | Report as abusive

syed wrote:

“The wall has been built by India, exploited by the Pakistani establishment for electorate gains, and is too stand till eternity when Kashmir is finally free”

India did not build not any walls. Co-existence comes natural to Multiethnic India. Invaders have come and have merged or left- chosing the middle path is never a good strategy with India. Pakistan is just doing that. While it wanted to be separate, it did not leave India alone. Survuval of Pakistan is depending upon Kashmir issue. It say Azad Kashmir, but it is such a bogus title–economic exploitation of POK, getting more and giving less, having non-Kasmiris in key positions. Religion is the issue that is being exploited to keep Kashmiris with Pakistan. If at all Kashmir becomes free, it will be swallowed by Pakistan.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

[...] Points India, Pakistan locked in their animosities at blogs.reuters.com by Sanjeev [...]

Pakistan is a country created in the name of religion but there are more Muslims in India than in Pakistan. Some Muslims in India are still loyal to Pakistan while staying in India like many of the Muslim population in the Arab world mock America for anything they do but turn to them for help when they need support. The world expected a shift in the policy of Pakistan authorities on their approach towards the terrorists as Pakistan is also a victim of terrorism. It never happens as the Pakistani mind keeps hostility towards Indian people considering that the Indians are against Muslims. Government of India started to blame Pakistan after the Mumbai terror attacks ignoring the fact that no civilized government in the world would support terrorists although there can be elements in the government or army or the intelligent bureau which support the terrorists directly or indirectly. We can not ignore the fact that even men in the Indian Military directly involved in terror attacks in the Indian land. We have just witnessed how much irresponsible and unconcerned are our politicians when it comes to the protection of ordinary citizens while the politicians are protected by Special Forces spending millions from the tax payers’ money. Ordinary people and those who mastermind the terrorist attacks should consider that their common enemies are not the ordinary people of any country who are soft targets and always suffer from the attacks. Such attacks can not be justified by any religion and religions are preaching humanity and love towards fellow beings.

Blogger Wrote:
“Pakistan or India should shred some budget to build “The Great Wall Of South-India” across Indo/Pak Border.Who knows Pakistan would bag one Wonder of the World competing to India even there…. lol”

……Talking about fences, after India made border fence, during Sikh Militancy ISI made a special folding ladder for the infiltrators and Were caught Working on building a tunnel for infiltrators—accoring to former Punjab police DG KPS Gill.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

of course the wall has been built by India. by not giving Kashmiris the right to self-determination. the ball has always been in India’s court. there is no real animosity in Pakistan beyound this core issue (see the popularity of bollywood 4 example, shared history, common language.) the wall that seperates the two nations has always been kashmir. even if the pakistani government softens its stand on Kashmir, the people will never forget. The peacful protests last year in Kashmir in large nos is proof of this. India tries to bring all kinds of other issues into the equation, complicate matters, and gets extremely cross when an outsider dares to bring up resolution of Kashmir issue (such as David Miliband did recently)

Posted by Syed | Report as abusive

rajeev wrote:

“Co-existence comes natural to Multiethnic India”

..and how do you explain the treatment of Christians in Orissa in 2008? How do you explain the massacre of Sikhs at the Golden Temple during 80s?

Posted by Syed | Report as abusive

Syed wrote :

“..and how do you explain the treatment of Christians in Orissa in 2008? How do you explain the massacre of Sikhs at the Golden Temple during 80s?”

Christians where attacked because they were trying to convert some people. We have some extremist here too, every country has them. You heard or read this news because most of the people respect multi-culture and multi-religion and they exposed this. The pople who did this are behind bars now. If it was pakistan, are you sure this news was not killed and anybody will ever know it.

Sikhs played into the hands of politicians for some time and eventually everything was fine. Even we have a sikh PM, will you ever have a Non muslim PM ?, Golden temple was used as a terrorist base in 80s so it had to be destroyed (Only the terrorist base). But Indian army tried not to harm the sikh shrine in which they were successful too.

“Pot calling the kettle black” what do you have to say for baluchistan liberation and swat where all girls schools are closed since 15th of Jan. is there any governance there in pakistan ??

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive

According to a BBC blog writer India and Pakistan are like ‘Tom and Jerry’, they cannot live with each other, at the same time they can not live without each other.

Posted by Julius | Report as abusive

Julius,

The Tom and Jerry analogy is funny but, untrue. Given the choice, if geographical neighbors could be miraculously altered, India would be very happy to relocate itself far away from Pakistan. Besides the cultural ties – courtesy of the shared past – there is less in common between India and Pak today.

Posted by Nikhil | Report as abusive

Shandana Khan Mohmand speaks of economic strategy of pakistan…but I really wonder if pakistan has anything like economic strategy ?? offcourse if it exists pakistan’s economic strategy could only be foreign aid money and IMF loan or worse money by nuclear proliferation.

Posted by Anitha | Report as abusive

“Nikhil”

This reminds of Mr. M. Singh’s speech as he stated. Quote “we share our biggest border line with Pakistan and I wish we had a better neighbor.”

We Afghans share the same feelings as our brothers do in India. The sad part about this is that Pakistanis are so dumb that they don’t get it.

Few words to you Terrorist Pakistanis, YOU ARE HATEFULL.
All your neighbors are ashamed of sharing border with you. You people are the reason behind killings of thousands of innocent civilians.

Death to Pakistan and its terrorist people.

Posted by Afghan | Report as abusive

wrote punjabiyaar:

“Christians where attacked because they were trying to convert some people.”

you hav given ureself away with this statement.

…btw i suspect afghan is not afghan :)

Posted by Syed | Report as abusive

“Syed”
Why most of you Pakistanis find this unbelievable that Afghans truly hate you from the bottom of their heart.

Ones again to clarify this, I am an AFGHAN and proud of it. Those who doubt that I maybe of any other nationality than Afghan are just fooling themselves. I don’t see any need to explain this further.

Posted by Afghan | Report as abusive

Afghan
You are not a true Afghan, you are an idiot. I read your comments often, those reflect the low self esteem you have. If you are Afghan, idiot, you most know millions of Afghan refugees were forced to fled to Pakistan due to war in Afghanistan in the 80s. Pakistan took care of those Afghan brothers and sisters, I remember in our locality we had those families and we lived like brothers. Most of them have left now, many are permanently settled in Pakistan.
When you say “death to pakistan” its YOU who must go to hell. If you love India, go and live with them, stop barking non-sense about Pakistan.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

punjabiyaar: Thanks for addressing Syed’s comments.

Syed: Just to reinforce punjabiyaar’s points, the killing of innocents is unfortunate but it is fortunate that India is a PLURALISTIC society and the political system is such that the mass killings will not become a nation’s policy—there are forces to counter it. Golden temple case has been addressed well already. That was a movement started by just 2-3 Sikhs who were living in US, UK, later exploited by politicians until it took the form of militancy and got out of hand. This militancy was purely an industry well supported by Pakistan (Panjwar, a top sikh militant, and many other militants are still safe in Pakistan). Operation blue star in Golden temple was unfortunate. But the temple at that time was desecrated by terrorists—entry was like death warrant— -example Punjab police SSP (a Sikh) persisted that he wanted to go there–was strongly suggested not to do so—but he did anyway and not doubt was killed by militants. Sadly but luckily the operation blue star eliminated the terrorist including the top Gun Bihindranwale, the monster created for political purposes. Bihindranwale was a classic case of a monster who became so powerful one day that it started hurting its creator too. Moral of the story to Pakistan ISI/CIA: neutralize LeT, JuD, JeM, Taliban, Al-Qaida since it is already hurting them. Hope they are at it. Are they doing that Syed??

The killings of innocents from any religion are unpardonable and can not be justified on any ground. The killers were reactionary right wing Hindu fundamentalist and the majority of Indians do not condone their actions. There are better ways to stop the conversion (words not war) and reciprocally there are better ways to convert people-naturally embracing a new religion or get rid of it– than explotation (bribery, force). Being not a “Zanat” and an imperfect world, these things do happen sadly. But the killers are not garlanded since the most including me would not condone these actions and will not clap at these kiilings and will also not even feel a secret pleasure for the killings of innocents like it happens at many places you know. You already see so many talking against this. …Enough said. Time up. Please Feel free to get back.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Shandana Khan Mohmand and M.J.Akbar are some of the sane voices in Pakistan and India .A good thing Shandana also mentioned about ‘Tit for Tat’ policy we follow ,both of the countries-especially Pakistan-should try to do something original,not a response to what their immediate neighbor do.

Speaking about people who try to uncover other people’s true nationalities,what can we say about your nationality when you are the only chaps who use abusive comments-like idiots-in this blog.

Posted by mitchell | Report as abusive

ABiznews writes- “Some Muslims in India are still loyal to Pakistan while staying in India”

The above statement is fairly amusing …to say the least. Are Indians/ India supposed to get intimidated by this statement?!!!

There are many, many Pakistani Muslims (bigger percentage than the supposedly traitorous amongst the Indian muslims) who seem to be disloyal to Pakistan while staying in Pakistan!!

Out of 150 million muslims, ISI barely recruits a handful.

Indian muslims are loyal to India, NOT because they want to do this as a favor to Indian Hindus, Indian Chrsitians, or Indian Sikhs.

Indian muslims are loyal to India, because it is their motherland….what ……is there a prosperous Pakistan to immigrate to?

Post-Mumbai ISI has reached a dead-end in India.

@Afghan! you said Afghan hate us Pakistani….have you forgotten that during invaison by Russia which country help you to fight against them, have you forgotten in which country your conutrymates fled to and which country accepted them with open heart.
you said you share same feeling with your indian brothers…have you forgotten which country assisted russia during its invasion to your country.
You have forgotten all the good deeds by Pakistan into your country, even today my country PAKISTAN is suffereing because of your country.

Posted by Peace | Report as abusive

Mitchell, you are right.
Umair:
I hope you are mature enough to stop using abusive words. People have been watching Ali’s and your language. So, mind your language.

Posted by Nick | Report as abusive

I already said the core issue for Pakistan and India remains Kashmir. Everything else is a distraction. How dificult is it for India to hold a proper plebiscite in Kashmir and end this decades of animosity? not that dificult i am sure.

Ending the animosity between the two countries has always been an option for India.. how dificult would it be for it to conduct a plebiscite?

They know the result of such a plebiscite wud be Kashmiris chosing freedom.

The big failure of the western media has been in calling this a two-way conflict, some kind of Tom and Jerry game is actually very insulting. its a conflict, an ocupation, imposed by India.

Posted by Syed | Report as abusive

Lets be true to ourselves. Indians should accept the reality. The reality is Pakistan is our enemy. And I respect Pakistan, because it is doing everything possible to weaken India, as a truly competent enemy should. Its doing its job fairly well.
Its a willy, intelligent enemy. It knows that it cannot be better than India at the present time. India is stronger and bigger than Pakistan in all respects. Therefore, it wants to weaken it, bring it down to its size and finish it. Pakistan does not like the prosperity of India or Indian people. So beware, you stray Indians who patronize Pakistan for some misplaced reasons, Pakistan wants to hurt India, hurt India and not support you.

Posted by Esthertrojan | Report as abusive

rajeev, thank you for ure comments. I do not write as a nationalist. God (and the media) know there is so much wrong with Pakistan. We do not treat minorities well (whether ethnic or religious), we hav hordes of militants on the loose and we hav ex-criminals (Zardari & co) running the country.

Having said all this.. U know 20,000 Sikhs did die during that period. Nos could be even higher. The question is, how many of these were innocent bystanders, witnesses, civillians. Why are 10s of 1000s of Christians from Orissa still afraid to return home? Kashmiris hold mass protests for freedom, in vain? I cudn’t believe how British foreign minister Miliband has had to face such a backlash fom the Indian government using a combination of anger and economics to express its displeasure over his call for a resolution to Kashmir.

One can’t keep always covering up things which tarnish the national image. Pakistan does the same thing and the result is problems just keep getting worse. the best way is to deal with them, peacful manner.

not all pakistanis and indians hav the leasure of sitting infront of the computer, like u and me, trying to better their country over the other. many do live in slums with more pressing concerns such as the basics. i think we need 2 think of them first. peace

Posted by Syed | Report as abusive

To all commentators, especially Muslims:

History’s biggest lesson is Every nation/religious/ethnic majority tends to RISE and eventually FALL. Without digging deeper into reasons, Being a Muslim, I have accepted the FALL of Muslims, so should every other Muslim.
We Muslims should build up silently (learn lesson from others and Muslims own history) by following the letter and spirit of Islam rather than only letter.

And to every non-Muslim: remember every RISE meets FALL, when in RISE do to others what you like for your-self when you are FALLing. Quite simple equation.

Thanks and sorry if I heart anyone’s feelings.

Posted by HT | Report as abusive

Sanjeev,

I am surprised to see you are referring to shandana as a male without checking.

Posted by faheem | Report as abusive

“I already said the core issue for Pakistan and India remains Kashmir. Everything else is a distraction. How dificult is it for India to hold a proper plebiscite in Kashmir and end this decades of animosity? not that dificult i am sure.”

Why is it so difficult for Pakistan to hold a proper plebisicte in NWFP and Balochistan? Not that difficult I am sure. What makes “freedom” for Kashmiris any different than Balochis or Pashtuns?

Posted by digitalcntrl | Report as abusive

Most Muslim of S. Asia are converts from Hinduism. Hindus resent that for obvious reasons. The Muslims on the other hands make the situation worse by identifying themselves by the Arabs which actually had very little genetic mix in S. Asia except for the religious influence.
The truth is that it is the inability of all the Middle Eastern Religions to Practically tolerate other beleif systems as well as the prevailing discrimination in the Hindu sociological order which tend to motivate opressed Hindus to convert. All can be forgotten if we can just remember that we are all humans and no one really knows who is really closer to God. Truth seekers adopt different methods to unite with God and the Power seekers use their honest philosophyies to conquor people. We saw that when Romans turned to Christianity and the Yazeedis took the Muslim Throne to Baghdad. I am still proud of my Kashmiri Pundit heritage even though I am a Muslim today. Good Pundits have and still contribute a lot to the humanity with their good deeds just like other good humans of all religions. Lets respact one another for we are only trying to live a good life in our own way and to the best of our ability.
But the Muslims must debate the role of Woman in their societies just like we have busted the myth in the USA by electing Barak O Bama that all Blacks are dumb, ignorant or not human enough. God bless you.

Posted by Nader Junaid | Report as abusive

Good heavens, to compare Paktun and Baloch nationalism to the freedom struggle of the Kashmiris? must be a joke.

these are movements aiming singularly 4 taking a greater share of the cake from a greedy pubjabi elite. This versus a Kashmiri struggle which has been well documented, internationally and historically recognized. it is india which has ignored the UN’s call 4 a plebiscite.

remember zardari, inspite of all his ridiculous credentials to the presidential palace, is a baloch. pukhtons are tied into the very fabric of pakistani society, is it the same with kashmiris in india?

if one were to take such an argument seriously, there are probably atleast a dozen new states waiting to be born in india. in that case we are both living in glass houses :)

kashmir isn’t abt india/pakistan. it is abt the kashmiri people. this shud be the neutral stand both our people could ,perhaps, one day be brought to agree on. A plebiscite 4 the kashmiri people (not 4 us!)

Posted by Syed | Report as abusive

Syed,

You, like many Pakistanis, believe ethnicity as the only citeria for nationhood. Your argument that Balochis and Pashtos are linked to Pakistan because of ethnic ties does not bode well. Tell that to the members of Balochi movement and they will explain at length their ethnic ties to Afghanistan.

On this blog, in previous discussions, we’ve already talked about the Kashmir issue. If you want to discuss about plebiscite, I can certainly talk here but, it will digress the core topic of discussion.

Posted by Nikhil | Report as abusive


http://www.apakistannews.com/blank-chequ e-to-china-for-talk-with-india-foreign-m inister-102064

Reading to the above article, Pakistan Foreign Minister has opened a new avenue of outsourcing…

We’ve heard of outsourcing a job, labors, manufacturing etc. but outsourcing a diplomacy ! Is it a gesture of a Successful state or a Failed state.

More I wonder where do they (Pakistan) have so much money that a ‘Blank Cheque’ is given?

OBAMA, will smell something bushy beneath Zardari.

Will India witness a Kung-fu soon?

Posted by Blogger | Report as abusive

test

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Syed:
Thanks for the comments.
Unfortunately, several thousand Sikhs died during 1984 riots (will not comment over number). I am from Punjab and my parents/grandparents migrated from now called Pakistani Punjab during 1947 partition. I have heard those riots too. I have as many Sikh friends as non-Sikhs, been closer to the reality and feel the sentiments of the people. Let me tell you that a vast majority of Indians always have high regard for Sikhs for what they have given to their country—they are tough but kind, intelligent and progressive and can be seen all around the world. I am proud of them and so does the whole India. Syed, a thing which I have been proud of in Punjab is that there was not even a single Sikh-Hindu riot, despite organized instigations. Hindus and Sikhs supported each other because they know each other—no ignorance. I question why no riot in Punjab during10-15 yrs of Sikh militancy—it is because both are forward looking and integrated—no major pockets of only Sikhs or only Hindus living separately—respect each other’s faith. WE know only the one face of the coin in the riots– Good part is that so many saved provided shelter and saved the lives by being at their risk.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

A bunch of garbage Sanjeev. Using Reuters to spread your Akhand Bharat dreams. You should be fired. This corner has now become another diatribe against Pakistan.

All the bigots gathered on this corner

Moin,
I must say a very incisive observation.
These Indians are running around in this post calling people who differ with them ‘idiots’ and trying to use this blog as a tool to further their dream of akhand bharat
:-)

Posted by chirkut | Report as abusive

Chirkut and Moin:

I am not so clear about your opinion on the Indian bloggers/and Akhand Bharat etc.

Thanks

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Many pakistanis are talking about plebiscite in Kashmir without fully knowing what it is.

I kindly request them to read it from the UN site and come back and talk
http://www.un.org/documents/sc/res/1948/ scres48.htm

Then you will come to know who occupied Kashmir and what happened aftermath.

Posted by Murugan | Report as abusive

Moin,

I don’t know why you are so frustrated. Almost half of the article contain the views of an intellectual woman based in Pakistan not Mr.Miglani’s.

Posted by mitchell | Report as abusive

Syed, It is false propaganda on many websites including many Pakistani websites is that Sikhs want to separate from India. Sikhs (in India) are happy and do not want a separate state. They have plenty and are peaceful—so what’s the point. Yes if someone wants to carry the burden of the history then there is no end. Sikhs have moved on since militancy—not because they are less brave—if you know the origin of the Sikhism. In addition to crackdown by Police on militants plus the political will of the Congress party (who created the monster helped finally killing it), it was the mass support of Sikh community who said NO to TERRORISM. India with ~1% Sikhs has a Sikh PM—what more is needed to tell that minorities can achieve whatever they want. Indian intelligence if that’s true says that the left-over Sikh Militants in Pakistan and India are still being promoted by ISI (it is credible intelligence). “The LeT has now set up a common office with the ISYF (a Sikh militant organization) outside Nankana Sahib, a small town in the West Punjab region of Pakistan.
“India’s Sikh Militants Forming Ties with Lashkar-e-Taiba and Pakistani Intelligence”
Click http://www.jamestown.org/single/?no_cach e=1&tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=34319
I hope it is false intelligence.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Syed: The killings of Christians by Hindu radical groups are unfortunate. It is a complicated and sensitive subject. I think perhaps it is not the conversion perhaps the manner in which they are done triggered all this-mass level exploiting their ignorance just like politicians do. I do not encourage or condone stopping conversion. But history teaches us a lot—Orissa issue is an example of clashes of religions. Proselytising is undesirable in the Hinduism. The Hindu way of life recognizes a person’s right to practice one’s faith (Some exceptions are there in history though). Conversion by exploiation (forcible, bribery) or even other interference in Hindu religions has invited problems on the converter. Aurgangzeb did and led to the creation of a fighter Hindu class—a new religion Sikhism. 1857 1st independence war was triggered by cartridge grease by Cow meat. For Muslims it was pork meat. Also, Sikh movement got more radicalized after operation blue star. So reactionary groups arise to counter this—survival skills?? No cover up for the converters or converted—but I wish there are better ways to do this..
Lack of enough security etc affects people who do not feel safe irrespective of the religion. Problems in India in general are quite secular—Sadly 40 Muslims died in Mumbai just slightly more than their % population in India. Same thing during Sikh militancy. Yes India has lots of problems but if I were you I would not wish that to happen. Stable PAK and India increase each others market value—-like real estate only. So let us be concerned and not applaud each orher’s problems.
Peace!

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

call it what ever my Indian friends, and take the argument in what ever other direction u like as it pleaszes. sanjeev miglani in this article on animosity between pakistan and india fails to mention kashmir, giving away quite clearly which side his argument is coming from. however history proves this has always been the core issue of animosity so it seems strange not to bring this up. indian governments policy has alwys been not to make this the BIG ISSUE between the two and it is understandable exactly why, but its a failed policy.

but it looks as if president obama plans to tackle the kashmir issue, irrespective of how loudly india claims. what kashmiris want is not 4 u or me 2 decide, it is 4 the kashmiris:) miliband has also on his trip to the sub-continent brought it up and it will not go away. the kashmir problem is too large and humongous to try and hide under the carpet for india. it sticks out very clear.

nationalistic jingoism & religious fanaticism (both hindu and islamic), 4 those of us who profess 2 neither can 2day quite clearly witness as the real culprits in pushing our sub-continent to this horrible brink that we stand at today: 100s millions in poverty at the mercy of nuclear-armed zealots.

Posted by Syed | Report as abusive

Sugestion 4 Reuters: why not start a blog called Kashmir: Now or Never?

on this blog it shud invite writers from azad kashmir and indian-occupied kashmir (ban pakistani or indian writers as they will only churn out more propaganda.)

i can assure it will be a popular blog. some of the views wud definaltely be a revelations, even 4 pakistani readers i am sure.

Posted by Syed | Report as abusive

@Syed,
Sugestion 4 Reuters: why not start a blog called Kashmir: Now or Never?
on this blog it shud invite writers from azad kashmir and indian-occupied kashmir (ban pakistani or indian writers as they will only churn out more propaganda.)

– I guess you already started to churn out propaganda by telling his, hope you will be banned first.
btw IOK (no body know, probably you had a type it should have been POK).
Now coming to the basic suggestion: Kashmir is forever, and it not Now or Never.

Posted by Blogger | Report as abusive

ooooooohhh…u got me there Blogger. I am churning out propaganda and it is called COMMON SENSE :)

Posted by Syed | Report as abusive

Syed, admire you cunning Pakistani’s, you’ll have the knack of stating nonsense & claim it to be ‘Common Sense’..

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

luv u 2 anup! see, finally i am getting some admiration 4 my views

Posted by Syed | Report as abusive

Syed, I sincerely wish that you did had a ‘point of view’ & would have loved to acknowledge it, but…sigh…

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

I agree that Sanjeev Miglani should be fired by Rueters because instead of writing unbaised articles on current affairs but he has taken it persaonal to defame Pakistan and show his hatered towards this peace loving country, Pakistan.

Posted by Peace | Report as abusive

Syed and other Pakistani friends:
So let us talk little bit about your favorite subject Kashmir. Pak is treating the Kashmir issue like one preses on the brakes and accelerator (???) together and expects the vehicle to move forward. There is no hand to mouth coordination about Kashmir by Pak. UN resolution on Kashmir issue set some rules to help create favorable conditions for plebiscite–not respected though by Pak. Pakistani troops under the guise of guerrilla infiltrators violated Indian sovereignty that led to wars in 1948, 1965. It is naive to say that India is a saint about kashmir, but Pak has done an irreparable damage to Kashmir and kashmiri cause, althhough acting the messiah for kashmiris. Pak has exploited Kashmir issue–it is just a distraction from other increasing internal problems in Pak. If Pak has been really worried about “Kashmiris”, Pak ISI would not have initiated terrorism in Kashmir?
POK also called Azad Kashmir is run by non-Kashmiris from Islamabad (what a bogus title!). The stark differences between the so-called Azad Kashmir and Indian Kashmir by any neutral analysis shows the lack of sincerity of Pakistan towards Kashmiris. India has article 370 giving special status including non-Kashmiri cannot buy property in Kashmir, but Pak allowed several thousand non-Kashmiri families to settle in POK; Pak destroyed the original demographics by systematic ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri Pundits through ISI’s Jihad and at the same time asking for Plebiscite. How many Kashmiris in POK were thrown out of Pakistan (lost jobs in the wake of the construction of Mangla Dam). Now Dam supplies 65% of the Pak electricity needs, but what does POK gets–nothing. Pakistan earns over Rs. 50 crores from the electricity produced at Mangla but the total budget of the Azad Kashmir is 20% of it!!!! Even if Pakistan might be thinking that it is helping Muslim Kashmiris—which it is not—but NO it is hurting and betraying them. And who runs two Kashmirs– Indian J&K (a kashmiri CM) but the PM of POK is from Rawalpindi (Punjabi). Isn’t it, India having a PM from Pakistan.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

As long as India keeps 500K troops in Kashmir, and uses violence to prevent the Kashmiris from gaining their freedom, there will be animosity between India and Pakistan.

What is wrong in accepting the truth? Why does the people in the subcontinent shy away from calling a spade,a spade?

Pakistanis always like to malign India. Where does the fault lie? Is it Perhaps in Jinnah’s policy of ‘Two Nation Theory’,or is it in Zia ul Haq’s policy in Islamizing Pakistan’s education? Do Pakistanis ever realized that before 1947 more than half of their ancestors fought for a country in the name of India,not Pakistan? There are too many faults. People like to hide the truth because they are afraid of it. People in Pakistan want their Children to believe that India was the aggressor in the 1965 war and not Pakistan. People try to justify that what they had done to East Pakistani were according to the will of Allah. If you inflict harm to Bangladeshis ,it doesn’t matter but if several natives in Kashmir were killed as a result of security faults,then they are against Islam,is it? They want to believe Indian Security Forces were foes,but do we agree there would have been no army in Kashmir if there was no Satanic Pakistani terrorists operating in Kashmir. People in Pakistan want their Children to believe that Indian Kashmir is more dangerous than SWAT. They want to assure themselves that an independent Kashmir would be happiest place in the earth,forgetting all what had happened in Afghanistan,forgetting all what is happening in NWFP now. People want to believe Abdul Qadir Khan is a hero but not that he is actually a thief,a scoundrel who tried to sell destructive weapon secrets to Volatile nations. People in Pakistan want to believe just because Indian people faced some job cuts,Pakistan is now economically sound than India as there as no job-cuts in Pakistan. When there are no jobs,where is the need for job-cutting? Ah,when someone says the truth ,that’s it,who ever had spoken the truth becomes a devil,even though they may be human right activists. There will be calls to book the person under treason. There will be abusive words to shoot at,as is evident in this blog itself. Finally coming to the Mumbai terrorist fiasco,why is it so difficult for a Pakistani to accept the fact as it is? Do we have any idea how the world will view all the statements coming from the Pakistani establishment? Mahatma Gandhi is considered to be the greatest human ever lived,why? Did he ever tried to cover up all the harsh truths about India? He is the greatest human because he spoke the truth as it is.

Indians are no Saints. Though there was peace in the earlier years,the secularism has undergone a major breach Why had the Indian Government closed its eyes recently when there was mass injustice to its minorities. Is the recent rise in Hindu Nationalism was after all the result of intolerance to Muslim Fanaticism? When will India open its eyes to view the Hindu nationalism seriously? There are several questions to be answered. Indians and Pakistanis should broaden their minds. There is no shame in accepting the truth as it is,after all this is the land where Gandhi lived. We should try not to live in our own fictional world of hatred and delusion,each of us still has a long way to go in fighting against Poverty and Corruption and in ensuring a good life for our citizens. First we should feed our innocent people’s stomachs and when our people are happy and educated,let us talk about our border disputes.

Posted by mitchell | Report as abusive

The very name for this blog, Pakistan:Now or Never, wud be offensive to lots of pakistanis. i hav lot of respect for reuters especially 4 its neutral stance on issues.

i understand with blogs u hav 2 take some kind of stance,maybe that is the whole point, but calling this nation of ours Now or Never is perhaps a step too far. I wud suggest renaming it to something more pleasant. afterall the blog on India is called A billion aspirations? Oh, I forget, it is a much bigger market for the media.. In that case is this blog also catered more for the Indian market?

further a lot of the ideas expressed here by the authors run in direct contradiction 2 how pakistanis view things. what is especially lacking is a depth in the analysis.

it wud be interesting to hear from someone at Reuters why this name was given to the blog (apologies if this has been covered before.)

Posted by Syed | Report as abusive

@Bangash Khan
As long as Pakistan fail to eliminate extremists honestly,those 500K troops in Kashmir will always be there.

Posted by pk | Report as abusive

Syed,
Well as you say,this ‘Now or never’ sound offensive somewhat if I imagine myself as a Pakistani. I think it means ,’Will Pakistan eliminate Religious terrorism and fanaticism quickly ‘NOW’ or will it ‘NEVER’ happen as Islamic Fundamentalism is expected to engulf the nation soon’. This is the truth,isn’t it?

Posted by mitchell | Report as abusive

Syed
“but calling this nation of ours Now or Never is perhaps a step too far.”

—the ground realties suggest that ‘never’ is a step too near, validating the blog’s title…in the near future the title will change pleasant for humanity – “Once in terrorist Pakistan”.

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

Syed
“but calling this nation of ours Now or Never is perhaps a step too far.”

I agree, reuters should have titled it “PAKISTAN NEVER”, adding “NOW” is a step too far from the situation which was controllable.

Syed and other fellows are you happy with the title “PAKISTAN NEVER EVER”

Lets have a poll here

+1

Posted by Punjabiyaar | Report as abusive

Punjabiyaar

+Eternity

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

Firstly, i am not going to comment on what has been said by readers below as there seems to be no attempt to hav a genuine debate. All i am want to say is if this is the level of debate we are going to hav then how abt calling the India blog: ‘India, Surviving the Slums.’ u see 2 can play such games

moving on to this blog, Pakistan: Now or Never, it gives a perception of Pakistan from an outsiders point of view. its a perception of Pakistan, not the reality.

Pakistani visitors to this blog will know what i am talking abt. but to an outsider, he or she can be forgiven for thinking this is the real Pakistan.

I am not saying Pakistan does not have problems, it has loads. more then hav been identified on the blog. But I do not see those being addressed here. I think blog posts hav shed too much light on the symptoms rather then the causes.

Posted by Syed | Report as abusive

Syed
“as there seems to be no attempt to hav a genuine debate.”
—How can deliberate untruthfulness be debated? ridiculous! So paranoid are you Pakistani’s, that you’ll suspect the motives of even those who are generous & sincere to you…the symptoms are for every one to see, the cause is greed…

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

@Syed,
…India blog: ‘India, Surviving the Slums.’….

Ouccchhh, I got you again, aren’t you talking about the 10 Oscar Nominee? lol

Posted by Blogger | Report as abusive

Pakistan as a country is misunderstood by outsiders,esp by Indians. We are on the one hand desirous of peace with them & on the other their media is always maligning us,portraying us as bloodthirsty fanatics & saying we are always wanting the destruction of India.

Thats not true,as is evident from the shocked reactions of Indians who visit Pakistan.They always come expecting to see a bigoted society with a crazed anti-India orientation;a land where wine drinking gets you thrown in jail & where women showing skin are whipped,raped & beaten silly.

Instead,what the Indians find is a society thats open & fair,developed & modern & also has no hatred for them.They are always welcome with open arms in Pakistan & hence leave for home with their tail in between their legs

Whats frustating & infuriating though,is the way we Pakistanis are misunderstood as a people

Posted by Qasim Awan | Report as abusive

@Syed,

—Syed is a terrorist sypathizer, based on his sympathy of the Khalistan Liberation Movement.—

Don’t be fooled by your government. As Pakistani expatriates, especially educated ones, leave Pakistan and live abroad, they become astonished to realize that Pakistan has a separate set of history books, than the rest of the world does. This becomes evident when Pakistani expatriates try to have a friendly debate about a topic with Westerners, or Indians alike and they curiously seem to exactly diametrically opposing accounts of written history and events. This is also known as brain washing, in the rest of the world.

What this means, is that your government is lying to you and not the least bit truthful.

The Khalistan movement and the Sikh Youth Federation are both a terrorist organization. It is so sad to see some Sikhs being used and maligned against their own mother country. It is the brave Sikhs who fought against Islamic oppression in the days of the Glorious Ruler Ranjit Singh.

I have a deep love and respect for Sikhs everywhere. The educated ones have the mindset to realize their place in India and society, afterall, it is a Sikh, is the ruler of India, is it not? I don’t think we will ever see a Hindu Prime Minister in Pakistan in the next millions years, even, although India had a muslim president.

What is so stupid about this terrorist Khalistan movement is that most of Punjab, is actually in Pakistan, occupied by Muslims, only 1/3 of that size is actually in India, so Khalistan should actually be made in Pakistan, no? Most of this land was stolen from Ranjit Singh, during partition, it was legally owned by India. Sikhs had rule of the land for 50 years only, and based on this, Pakistan is fueling a hate filled terrorist entitlement on India’s Punjab as Khalistan.

Pakistan’s own notorius and insidius Ret. Lt. Gen Hamid Gul is the grandmaster terrorist architect of the Pakistani manufactured terrorisim. Sikh separatism is nurtured, armed and fostered against India to separate Punjab India from India. What those naive and misguided Sikhs in Pakistan don’t realize is that if the Indian part of Punjab ever separated, Pakistan would claim it for themselves and are actually using Sikh Khalistan agitation, as a proxy army to fight with India.

Sorry Syed, India has to defend its territorial integrity. What the world calls fighting Terrorism, you call freedom fighters.

I think Syed, you quiety sympathize with Terrorists, like the Khalistani’s, in fact you have never, like any Pakistani’s here refuted Islamic Terrorism, therefore you must profess to sympathize and support it, morally and quietly, and I don’t think you will refute that either.

Syed, you need to tell your Pakistani friends the truth about the Khalistan movement, especially what these Pakistani trained thugs were doing in USA, Canada, Europe and other countries. In our community, a Sikh Khalistan sympathizer was tracked by the Intelligence community and known to have direct connections and even gave help to the Sikh men who killed so many innocent families in the Air India Bombing.

The Khalistani’s would come to the temples, collect Gold from the women, watches from the men, money, and they even intimidated my family to support their unjust and ungodly cause. When all the chips fell, the India government quashed the Pakistani fueled Khalistan insurgency in India, it was found that a lot of these so called Khalistan supporters found the who process personally very lucrative and were stealing a lot of the money and gold collected. Most people never got their things back.

You talk to any Sikh not born or lived in Pakistan and they will tell you that they are disillusioned, distraught, disappointed and hate the Sikh Khalistan movement, especially since its leaders, mentored in terrorism by Pakistan, had no moral center or moral compass.

Syed, be careful, who you profess to provide sympathy for, for the Sikh Khalistan liberation organization is a corrupt, violent, jihadic organization, trained, mentored, armed, supported by the ISI and Pak Army.

Even your mention of them, as freedom fighters, makes those outside of Pakistan point even more fingers at the citizens of Pakistan, a commoner, like yourself, who openly displays moral support for terrorism, terrorists, and all associated activities.

Pakistan cannot give up its pathological love for hate and terrorism. It is evident by what spews from the mouth of its citizens, like you.

Talk, think and act responsibly.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

@Syed, and Qasim, Peace and all bloggers.

http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries/ india/states/punjab/terrorist_outfits/IS YF.htm

Please got the above link and you will see a report, which details Pakistan’s support of the Sikh Youth Liberation Movement a terrorist organization.

Pakistan can’t claim to want peace with its neighbours, while in the same breath training terrorists.

If Pakistan continues to train terrorists against India, Pakistan is morally indefensible and deserves removal of its Statehood status through the UN and subsequent dismantling.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

Global Watcher (btw is that ure real name? lol) it is becoming increasingly clear to hav a decent (and sane) discussion on a topic is beyound the capacity of certain commentators.

no one here is supporting militants or terrorists (whether sikhs in punjab, muslims in kashmir, or hindus in India.) u forget Pakistan has been the biggest victim of terrorists in recent times. and it still remains a mystery 4 us who here is funding all this in baluchistan and other parts(perhaps a certain neighbour 2 the east?)

what iam speaking out against (and u shud too) is the so called “collateral damages.” after all this is what it is all abt. atleast 20000 sikhs dead, what percentage of this were innocent civilians, collateral damages, is my question? same for kashmir, just read any amnesty international or human rights watch reprot and u will get my answer very clearly.

also do not forget india’s history of its cozy relationship with the Tamil Tigers (group 2 first ever carry out suicide bombing if iam not mistaken.)

terrorism in all its forms shud be condemned. and i want to see u condemn india’s involvment, including what happened in Samjhauta Express tragedy and numerous other such examples. these are cases which hav been highlighted by many of ure own brilliant Indian writers, none less so then Arundhati Roy. which country’s history text-book did she read growing up? u shud be proud of such writers who hav the capacity to think beyound nationalistic or religious fanaticism.

calm down my friend and hav a glass of water. u talk in anger and with less clarity (iam beginning to regret having refuted an earlier commentator when I said to say Pakistanis and Indians argue like Tom and Jerry. it looks like i was wrong and i will be the first 2 admit :) in fact i think those two at least appear to hav a certain level of understanding)

Posted by Syed | Report as abusive

@Global Watcher

You have not mentioned the nefarious activities India has undertaken against my country,Pakistan.These include

-fanning the flames of revolt in Baluchistan
-sending RAW agents into FATA to stoke violent conflict
-training & arming the MQM while it was at its murderous peak in the 80s & 90s
-violating the Indus Waters Treaty & breaking international law

India should be tried for war crimes @ The International Court of Justice @ The Hague

Posted by Secular Pakistani | Report as abusive

Syed, Qasim and other Pakistani guys:

You have been complaining for lack of deabate, but the point is you are bringing up the same points (“200000 sikhs dead, what percentage of this were innocent civilians, collateral damages, is my question?”.

1. I talked to you in “sane” voice about that. Please check my previous posts. But the portal (posted by global watcher) is helpful. It is not a false propaganda site.

http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries/ india/states/punjab/terrorist_outfits/IS YF.htm

1. I myself have addressed that Sikh terrorism to Syed and others have done that too. No body knows how many innocents died but the bottom line is “SIKHS IS INDIA DO NOT wANT SEPARATE STATE. IT was AN IDEA BY ONE PERSON IN UK (ONE SINGLE PERSON)-ULTIMATELY 2-3 AND SOME MORE IN US/UK IN LATE 1970S. EXPLOITED BY CONGRESS PARTY (terrorist BHINDRANALE) AND TERRORIsts FOR 10YRS SUPPORTED BY ISI (YES IT IS BORING BUT IT IS FACT AND PAKISTANI COMMON MAN LIKE YOU HAVE TO LIVE wITH THE FACT wHAT ISI HAS DONE-IT NEEDS A wHOLE BOOK.) DG Punjabl Police KPS GILL SAID HE wILL DO THE NOBLE JOB of tackling Sikh militancy SINCE HE KNOwS THE PSYCHE OF SIKH MILITANTS-HE SAID IT NEEDS 3 THINGS –1. GUN/BULLET-SECURITY AND CONFIDENCE of POLICE force 2. POLITICAL wILL 3. MASS SUPPORT (DOES COMMON MAN MUST wILLINGLY REJECT TERRORISM). IT ALL HAPPENED and terrorism could be eradicated (almost, since there are movements beneath the surface). INNOCENTS DIED–OF different religions—most unfortunate were the riots in 1984— it is a shame beyond description. I (hiNDU FROM PUNJAb) AND MY SIKH FRIENDS HAVE MOVED ON AND ARE NOT INTO COUNTING THE BODY BAGS now. NO IDEA HOw MANY ARE INNOCENTS–PERHAPS NO BODY KNOwS. Sikhs do not wants Khalistan—especially now looking at Pakistan. India is proud of Sikh community-they are brave, tough, but kind and generous and highly progressive. Read more on websites and get real picture about the movement–refrain from false propaganda websites (many run abroad are useless–people living in unreal scenario–not in India, it is a game to them). UNTIL THEN TAKE THE INFO HERE AT FACE VALUE AND DEBATE THE POINT IF YOU wANT TO. FILTER THE ANGER/SENTIMENTS of the bloggers (Indians have taken a lot so the anger) AND GET the info useful to you. YOUR ONLY POINT I SEE IS HOw MANY INNOCENTS Sikhs DIED–NO ONE KNOwS–OPERATION BLUE STAR, SOME INNOCENTS GOT trapped in between, 1984 riots). Sadly dead CANNOT BE MADE ALIVE, what can be done is to move on and that is wise to do. Remember Sikhs are very brave (refer to Sikh history) but have moved on. TAKE HOME MESSAGE IS “INDIA is not into and was into the intentional killing of innocents or SYSTEMATIC GENEOCIDE”.

2. I HAVE wRITTEN ON KASHMIR IN THIs blog-”PAKISTAN EXPLOITATION OF KASHMIR ISSUE.” HERE IS THAT AGAIN:
Regarding Kashmir, Pak is pressing on the brakes and accelerator (???) together and expect the vehicle to move forward. UN resolution on Kashmir issue set some rules to help create favorable conditions for plebiscite–not respected though by Pak. Pakistani troops under the guise of guerrilla infiltrators entered Indian sovereignty that led to wars in 1948, 1965. while India might not be a saint about kashmir, Pak has done an irreparable damage to Kashmir and kashmiri cause. Pak has exploited Kashmir issue–it is just a distraction from other increasing internal problems in Pak. If Pak has been really worried about “Kashmiris”, why Pak ISI initiated terrorism in Kashmir?
POK also called Azad Kashmir is run by non-Kashmiris from Islamabad (so azad is a bogus title!). The stark differences between the so-called Azad Kashmir and Indian Kashmir by any neutral analysis shows the lack of sincerity of Pakistan towards Kashmiris. India has article 370 giving special status including non-Kashmiri cannot buy property in Kashmir, but Pak allowed several thousand non-Kashmiri families to settle in POK; destroyed the original demographics by systematic ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri Pundits through ISI’s Jihad and at the same time asking for Plebiscite. How many Kashmiris in POK were thrown out of Pakistan (lost jobs in the wake of the construction of Mangla Dam). Now Dam supplies 65% of the Pak electricity needs, but what does POK gets–nothing. Pakistan earns over Rs. 50 crores from the electricity produced at Mangla but the total budget of the Azad Kashmir is 20% of it!!!! India is doing a lot for J&K especially for the valley-more than India IS doing for other states. Even if Pakistan might be thinking that it is helping Muslim Kashmiris—which it is not—but NO it is hurting and betraying them. And who runs two Kashmirs– Indian J&K (a kashmiri CM) but the PM of POK is from Rawalpindi (Punjabi). Isn’t it, India having a PM from Pakistan.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Rajeev i will giv u the same advice i gave to Global Watcher (not sure if u r the same person)and this is too calm down and hav a glass of water :) i hope this much we can agree on.

ure comment is longer then poor Sanjeev Miglani’s entire blog post. if u r so passionate with ure views, why not start ure own blog or become a writer with Reuters? But i hope u can write in a chilled tone. Now if u will excuse me, i hav got a life 2 live :)

Posted by Syed | Report as abusive

@In(secular) Pakistani,
…India should be tried for war crimes…

Whilst anyone trusts Pakistan claim or petitions @ international community.
Ohhh first try to put your backyard people under trial and talk about International.

Posted by Blogger | Report as abusive

Syed, Qasim and other Pakistani guys: Part 2

3. Talking about the focus on “Pakistan: now or never”. there is a bipartisan report by USA on the fear of bio-terrorism and nuclear weapons getting into terrorist’s hands. I red the complete report- a book published now. The authors/members of the committee who wrote prepared report were few hours away from PAK Marriott Hotel when it gor bombed. They were in Kuwait en route to Pakistan. In that report, there is a complete section called “PAKISTAN: AT THE INTERSECTION OF TERRORISM AND NUCLEAR WEAPONS”. Report mentions that 74% of NGOs from 114 countries said that the real chance of terrorists acquiring Nuclear weapons from Pakistan. The book specifically stresses on the irresponsibility of Pakistan about handling nuclear weapons (acquiring and distributing)—The problelms created by A Q Khan, Link of another Pak scientist with Al-Qaida, N. Korea, Libya also mentioned. They went on to say as much as Pakistan as one stop-shop of Nuclear weapons. The blog title will be sound much lighter after you read the report. BTW, India has not been mentioned at all in this light or any security concern despite the problems in India. So the emphasis on Pak in this way is not only by the bloggers or Reuters, but this is also the view of the experts.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Syed:
Hope you read the 2nd part too.

Great debate by a Pakistani!!!!!!! what an embarassment to Islamic Pakistan. Oh I forgot you guys have no shame.

Your own loved one LeT series of and other hyphenated gps are going to get the DIRTY BOMB and stick it up your BOTTOM. Save the glass of water for their hospitality and get ready for gang bang by the terrorists you created.
MF

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Syed
“i hav got a life 2 live”

—So did those whom you Pakistani terrorists murdered in cold-blood in the Mumbai attacks & also those innocent souls whom you people kill in blasts… must creeps like you’ll enjoy the right to exist? I can vouch many don’t think so, & rightly…

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

the kind of language being used by Rajeev and Anup. Comment moderators at Reuters plz kindly take note.

Posted by Syed | Report as abusive

Syed

—Duh, what peculiar have we stated, it’s a well known fact globally —-’Pakistan is synonymous with Terrorism’ or vice vers… whichever you comfy with…lol

Posted by Aam Insaan | Report as abusive

Qasim wrote:
“Pakistan as a country is misunderstood by outsiders,esp by Indians”

I would complete the sentence. “Pakistan as a country is misunderstood by outsiders,esp by Indian” and USA and France and Germany and Denmark and United kingdom and Belgium and Saudi Arabia and Canada and Australia and every big and small country in the world.

I have been to Pakistan once during a cricket match, and a mob of crazy people attacked our bus and tried to set it on fire, due to some Prophet Mohammad Cartoons published in Denmark newspaper. Did I or anybody in the bus draw that cartoons. Obviously no. But I have seen the hatred in the eyes of pakis for indian people.

I know Ali, Syed, Qasim and other pakis out there are thinking that I should have died in that attack. Sorry fellows better luck next time. Next time try to throw five petrol bombs instead of two.

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive

punjabiyaar well said bro,

— Don’t ask them to throw, they are world class that these days they keep nukes in their pockets and walk, who know they may throw. BTW the missiles and rockets are getting costlier in Pak economy.

Posted by Blogger | Report as abusive

Syed:
Ever wondered why only you get into this. You raise a point and bloggers (including myself) respect that as shown by their specific responses. I have seen many bloggers have spent time to straighten out the facts and sharing them. On the contary, your return messages have been non-serious and do not debate it further–which is OK if you cannot. But rather your messages are distracting from the core issues under discussion by posting obstructive/sarcastic/insulting messages and personally attack multiple bloggers and ABOVE ALL REUTERS ITSELF BY implying they are biased on starting the blog itself. YOU do have an option of not joining in the debate, but please do not hinder a positive discussion.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

OKK its off the topic, but I couldn’t resist posting the title here… How can ever anyone trust Pakistanis understanding about India and the World.
It shows that they are so so so Jealous about India that they do not have a patience to read the article and comment.
So is happening here as well…

Read on:
InfoSys Decides to Pull Back from India – Beginning of the End
http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/ Soc/soc.culture.pakistan/2008-09/msg0010 5.html

Posted by Blogger | Report as abusive

Rajeev,

I did come here to hav a discussion, but not here to share insults. just read ure own message again, the one starting with “Great debate by a Pakistani!!!!!!!” i am not going to repeat the whole message. but if u read the last two sentences and u will see what i am talking abt..

i did raise an issue abt the naming of this blog ‘now or never’. but plz read my message again and the manner in which i said it. i feel i hav every right to give my opinion on this blog here by Reuters, that is part of the reason why we are given the opportunity to comment here. its kind of a feedback, take it my opinion from observing day2day life in Pakistan and comparing it with what the media says. This is what freedom of expression is my friend.

u hav every right to critisize me and my views as i hav ures. But there is a certain boundary one must not cross, with freedom comes responsibility.

it forever amazes me how some people on the internet completely transform and start saying things they wud not say in real life (i mean the language used not the arguments) i am also fairly certain the comment moderators will agree with me on this because they probably hav lots of experience of dealing with such and is probably a nightmare.

i said 2 Global Watcher 2 drink a glass of water becasue of the tone being used and on hindsight i think it might hav had the opposite effect. 4 u i think now i shud not hav said that. if i hav been unpleasant or not fair with u in anyway in the debate then all i can say is iam very sorry. i think yes, definately on hindsight the fault also lies with me 4 not properly responding to some of the issues u raised. as 4 being sarcastic, this is part of my personality :)

this is not a pakistan vs india issue or anything of the kind. equally i hav observed pakistani commentators using fowl and rude language that hav no relevance and only adds a certain unpleasantness to the whole discussion. peace!

Posted by Syed | Report as abusive

Rajeev, on Kashmir I agree in that Pakistan has done irreparable damage to Kashmir. The Pakistani establishments policy has been very cynical, self-serving and yes foolish.

indeed today if ever Kashmiris were given the option 2 join Pakistan i wudn’t want them 2. i think Kashmir as an independent state, seperate from both India and Pakistan, is the answer. otherwise we will fight 4 eternity. Pakistan has got too much issues but withs own smaller provinces, just look at baluchistan for one. i don’t want Kashmir to suffer in such a country. they hav already suffered enough inside india (just read the human rights reports.)

if Kashmir had acceded to pakistan back in 47 i might hav different views and think it feasible. yes kashmir is a good excuse to not deal with internal issues and problems 4 pakistani politicians (and indian too but India is a big country.)

having said all this, i still believe the core issue between india and pakistan remains kashmir, or we face an eternity of animosity. this needs to be solved with freedom. my views might not be popular with a lot of pakistanis or indians. but i equally know there r lots of indians, pakistanis but especially kashmiris who wud agree. they r tired and want freedom.

Posted by Syed | Report as abusive

Syed
“it forever amazes me how some people on the internet completely transform and start saying things they wud not say in real life (i mean the language used not the arguments)”
—You lucky SOB, I would’ve love to wring the neck of some terrorist like you in person…

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

Syed,
…i don’t want Kashmir to suffer in such a country. they hav already suffered enough inside india (just read the human rights reports.)…

You talk about Human Rights. Everything will be peaceful in this World once Pakistan is beaten for promoting terrorism everywhere in the World.

You guys call Swat as Switzerland and spoiled our Heaven on the earth, so your got it right from Talebad lately your Switzerland is not Terroristland.

The core issue with you guys is Jealousy, You don’t know to live in peace and harmony and you try all your best to spoil peace and harmony of other countries, oppressed, depressed, and sociopath nation.

Look at the below article from your own nation.
—-
The Human Rights commission of Pakistan slammed Pakistan on gross violation of human rights in Pakistan occupied Kashmir. It cited ISI the intelligence and covert operational wing of Pakistan in these allegations.

According to K.P.S Gill, The Northern Areas in Pakistan Occupied Kashmir (PoK) have been split into five districts: Gilgit, Baltistan, Diamir, Ghizer and Ghanche. A population of 1.5 million inhabits a vast area of 72,495 square kilometers. Sparsely populated as the area is, the ethnic groups are varied – Baltees, Vashkuns, Mughals, Kashmiris, Pathans, Ladakhis and Turks, speaking a multiplicity of languages, including Balti, Shina, Brushaski, Khawer, Wakhi, Turki, Tibeti, Pushto and Urdu.

The sect-wise breakdown of population in the Northern Areas is:

Gilgit – 60% Shia, 40% Sunni;
Hunza –100% Ismaili;
Nagar – 100% Shia;
Punial – 100% Ismaili;
Yasin – 100% Ismaili;
Ishkoman –100% Ismaili;
Gupis – 100% Ismaili;
Chilas – 100% Sunni;
Darel/Tangir – 100% Sunni;
Astor – 90%Sunni, 10% Shia;
Baltistan – 98% Shia, 2% Sunni.

The Northern Areas are the only region in Pakistan whose status is not specified in the Constitution. While Kashmir is mentioned as a disputed territory, the Northern Areas find no mention in the relevant schedule, nor do they have an autonomous or constitutional status of their own. The people of the Northern Areas are, consequently, not citizens of Pakistan within the meaning of the Constitution and do not enjoy any fundamental, legal, political or civil rights guaranteed by the Constitution. The region is also out of bounds to foreigners and journalists, except for occasional tightly controlled guided tours selectively organised by the Army or the intelligence agencies. The Northern Areas have thus been under virtual Martial Law for over five decades. Under the existing Frontier Crime Regulations (FCR), framed during the colonial era, every resident of the region has to report regularly to local intelligence personnel and all movements from one village to another have to be reported to the authorities.

From being continuously “watched and monitored” by Pakistan’s ISI to denial of basic fundamental rights including access to judiciary and fair trial, people in Pakistan occupied Kashmir (PoK) have suffered gross violations of their rights, according to the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan.

“The Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) has a strong presence in the region (PoK) according to information gathered by the HRCP and people continuously feel they are being watched and monitored,” said a report released by a 11-member delegation of the commission which had been on a fact-finding mission to PoK.

“There are various constitutional limitations on Azad Kashmir’s autonomy,” the report said. “Defence, security, foreign affairs and currency are, for instance, outside the purview of the Azad Kashmir’s government.”

The government is also not having control over the state’s natural and financial resources and decision on their use. On the status of security in the 13,297 sq kilometre stretches, the report said, the judicial powers of the people are undermined and rights to expression are violated.

“People feel that civil and political rights of Kashmiris on both sides of the LoC have been infringed,” it said adding that under the guise of the ””Maintenance of Public Order Ordinance,”” which prohibits activities that are prejudicial to public safety, the fundamental freedom of the public is violated.

The report touches upon several heads, which include press freedom, status of women and children, education, health and employment, prisons, and militancy, which reflects on the human rights issues involved in these sectors and is published by the agency under the title ””Visionaries””. On the freedom of press in PoK, the report quotes journalists as complaining that their freedom of expression is restrained. “Journalists frequently face harassment at the hands of intelligence agencies, jihadis and the government,” the report said citing cases of abductions and execution of journalists in the region.

The plight of women, however, brings a little cheer to the report, which claims that their literacy rate is 46-50 per cent higher than many of the neighbouring communities. However forced marriage, domestic violence is common evils with many who have non-Kashmiri fathers facing difficulties with their domicile rights. Children of PoK are denied their rights and do not receive priority in the government’s policies, according to the report. Child labour is a common practice in PoK, it said.

Posted by Blogger | Report as abusive

Syed,
Thanks for the long response. You cannot assume that 2 bloggers are the same person. I do not have time for playing double role. Also for now the “real life” is using e-muscles. So let us stop this distraction. In case I did not convey it properly, your message addressed to me was unprovoked to which I responded—not unprovoked therefore. Having said that responses are never proportionate but I am glad that we are clear and let us stick with the discussion points and the issues.

Suggestion to Reuter about the title “Now or Never” is your valid right of freedom of expression. I defended this title by citing a report on WMD getting in the hands of terrorists——–experts analyze it might be from Pakistan. Plus we all know the scene in the absence of any report or WMD. “Now or Never” Title is not about the existence of Pakistan as a state, but emphasizes the need of NOW as the last time to take control otherwise it will NEVER be possible. I think strategically speaking a stable Pakistan (of course the one which does not support anti-India activities) and stable India are in the best interests of each other. No one has a reason to applaud the anti-Nation activities of any kind. BUT IT IS TIME TO START CALLING SPADE A SPADE AND THE SLOGAN “ONE PERSON’S TERRORIST IS ANOTHER’S FREEDOM FIGHTER” IS OUTDATED AND MUCH EXPLOITED.

Here is link for complete report on WMD if anyone interested.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/librar y/report/2008/wmd-prolif-terror-commissi on2-02.htm

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Syed,

I am glad to see that you are not using abusive language like your other two country- Ali and Umair were using. I hope everyone stays within limits.
Now, Syed: Can you shed some light on human rights in your country?

Posted by Nick | Report as abusive

@Syed,

Sorry Syed, but he land all the way up to Iran is actually ancient Indian land.

It was stolen by the Arab invaders from a peaceful, spiritually progressive and gentle society which was focussed not on war, but developing itself spritually and intellectually. Please feel free to throw most of your history books and use them for fire starter as a lot of your knowledge is incomplete and opposing to the accounts of history as the rest of the world knows it.

With regards to Kashmir, even if the Kashmir issue did not exist, Pakistan would have wanted Indian Punjab, it would never have ended, this is Islamic double standard entitlement and regression to the Dark Ages, which everybody is trying to stop. So you see, due to the nature of the partition, Pakistan would have found another reason to fight with India.

Hate electrifies the citizens of Pakistan. They cannot run a country without it.

Do you agree with the right of Pakistan to exist? Then for the record, you must also profess for the right of Israel to exist too, no?

Kashmiris, do have freedom, like any other Indian. For those who want to be a part of Pakistan, they can leave if they think they will live a better life in Pakistan.

I guarantee happiness for Kashmiri’s if Pakistan quits its interference.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

Syed,
Your points are:
1. Pak has done irreparable damage to Kashmir. Plus you said “The Pakistani establishments policy has been very cynical, self-serving and yes foolish.”
——–Syed, so we agree on that Pak has done irreparable damage to kashmir–so you already said that solution in current form is not possible. Plus Pak does not care about kashmiris, it is just for pak/pak army/isi purposes that the issue is exploited.

2. “if ever Kashmiris were given the option 2 join Pakistan i wudn’t want them 2. i think Kashmir as an independent state, seperate from both India and Pakistan, is the answer. if Kashmir had acceded to pakistan back in 47 i might hav different views and think it feasible.”
———Syed, even if you equate Kashimiris as Muslims, kashmiris living in india is more feasible than in pakistan now or in 1947 (Secular democratic India). Muslims are happily staying in secular india (there is more than 1 pakistan full of muslims in india making them the largest minority). but kashmiri pundit in islamic pakistan is not a possibility. so you have been starting off with an assumption that all kashmiris are muslims. kashmiri pundit genocide/exodus scenario masterminded by ISI-trained terrorists led to newer demographics. that is no help by pak for the kashmiri cause.
Alernatively if Kashmir is independent, it will become the breeding ground of terrorists, whose agenda is on the web sites to see (spreading Islamic rule over India–you may or may not agree with them, it does not matter but they will go for that). It is so naive to think that Pak will not continue to support their agenda. So issues are going to remain. Why? see#3

3. the core issue between india and pakistan remains kashmir, or we face an eternity of animosity
——-kashmir is a pseudo-core issue. in the absence of kashmir, pak would have created another issue and one of the obvious one is muslim population in india so the core issue is a democratic secular india next door to islamic pakistan. india has no problem but very nature of religion-based pak as a neighbour to a democratic secular India. this was made worse by the fact that pakistan was always politically unstable and did not make progress (science or else), which means a continuous need of a distraction and dependence on west who used pak for their purpose. Pak continued to propagate religion-based hate, the very thesis on which it was built.

I think we need a fresh and more practical approach. Forget old UN resolution (completely descarated) and have a fresh one relevant to todays times.

If it really about Kashmiris rather than about India and Pak, it can be done.

My view is to have Kashmir of India and Kashmir of Pakistan with special status but under the control of India and pakistan. Let people move to whatever country they want. Break UN resolution and get economic sanctions and tough punishment will put accountability on India and Pak.

Well, if it can happen in 1947 to Punjab–Pakistani Punjab and Indian Punjab, why not to Kashmir.

let people in 2 kashmirs progress at their own pace. See no one sees Indian Punjab the way Pakistan Punjab is talked about?

TIME TO THINK OUT OF BOX

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Rajeev,

“I think strategically speaking a stable Pakistan (of course the one which does not support anti-India activities) and stable India are in the best interests of each other.”

I agree, but let me humbly make slight addition to this: “I think strategically speaking a stable Pakistan (of course the one which does not support anti-India activities) and stable India (of course the one which does not support anti-Pakistan activities) are in the best interests of each other.”

I think if we can agree on this just much (and free Kashmir of course) the Subcontinent wud be on the path to development. Kashmir has divided India and Pakistan, and brought them closer only in terms of war. While European countries hav learnt 2 live with each other and share common currencies, Pakistan and India seem to hav grown further and further apart. Now u hav statements such as we can’t chose our neighbours, such is the level of repulsion.

As 4 the title Now or Never, I note ure point. I don’t agree Pakistan is such a danger but I note ure point. It wud be interesting if someone from Reuters wud make a comment, or write a blog post abt the choic of this title (or has there already been one?) Because while a lot of Indian commentators (and others) may agree with the title, I know a lot of Pakistanis do not (because they actually live there.) So I am interested in Reuters views on this.

Posted by Syed | Report as abusive

Nick:

“Now, Syed: Can you shed some light on human rights in your country?”

I wud be happy too. There r lots of areas to go into. But first let there be a new blog post on the issue abt it where I can comment. lets see

Posted by Syed | Report as abusive

Nice to read from you, Syed.

Posted by Saf | Report as abusive

As in not using foul language and staying respectful.

Posted by Saf | Report as abusive

Syed:

In response to your previous post here, I have posted a message under relevant article “Obama’s South Asian envoy and the Kashmir conundrum Comments”

Please check if you wish.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

The safety of the internet truly encourages folk to use language and make comments they would never dare to in public. Notice the claims of some wacko Indians who consider Kashmir, Pakistan and even Iran to be their property!!

Kashmir is under Indian Army occupation, which has used force for 60 years to keep Kashmir in India. That is a basic violation of the rights of Kashmiris and a usurpation of their land. Until such injustice stops in Kashmir, the problem between India and Pakistan will continue.

A sane voice coming out of Pakistan. But the author is phyically far away from the actual country ( Pakistan ) in the UK, to be able to speak with such freedom. Pakistan is a country, that needs help not criticism. It needs support not reprimand. But the issue is, Pakistani Govt. / establishment since 1947 haven’t seen it like that. They think they can handle it. Reality is certainly totally different. Kashmir would be solved, or won’t be solved, shouldn’t hold back the economic cooperation between South Asian countries. India is surging ahead in the world, and Pakistan needs to do the same. Education of hate that’s being taught in madarsa’s are only serving the interests of the outsiders. Pakistani people voted for secular / progressive parties NOT the madarsa running org’s. World needs to make sure, democracy is able to take firm root in Pakistan, otherwise this stalemate would continue. Its easy to point out fingers to any one, fact is Indian democracy is the largest, and infact one of the few genuine democracies not only in South Asia, but across Asia. I wish Pakistan , Turkey’s kind of success NOT Afganistan or Sudan kind of fate.

Posted by ShareIq | Report as abusive

there is absolutely no fact that whole of the pakistan’s resources be it cultural/educational/economical were and are used against Indiavright from the partition.on the other hand India chose the way of progress and today stands among the top countries of world It will be the world third largest economy by the year 2030 while pakistan is on the verge of a collapse in all spheres.

The anti India policy of pakistan has led to its downfall. and if pak people think that they have china with them then you must know that china is only with pakistan owing to her interests and the day is not far away when china will cut off with pak. it has already been started when china refused to help pakistan to save her drowning economy.

the only country that can help pakistan to get out of this situation is India but if pak continues to act in same irresponsible manner then only god can save.

Posted by shanky | Report as abusive