What does Pakistan want from U.S. envoy Holbrooke ?

January 30, 2009

Former Pakistan ambassador to London and Washington Maleeha
Lodhi has given a taste of what Richard Holbrooke can expect when
he makes his maiden visit to Islamabad next week in his new role as
President Barack Obama’s special envoy to Pakistan and
Afghanistan.

She may have owed her diplomatic career to General Pervez Musharraf,  but being an ex-official does not mean she has lost touch.

Writing in The News, the paper she used to edit, Lodhi listed an eight-point agenda for Pakistan as it braces for Holbrooke, a diplomat with a reputation for playing hardball.

Lines have to be drawn to make the United States respect Pakistani sovereignty and understand the limits of cooperation, Lodhi writes in an opinion piece titled “Back to the Future”.

Here’s the Pakistani agenda as she sees it :
1. U.S. missile attacks on Pakistani territory should end.
2. Assistance under the Biden-Luger bill should be offered
with no strings attached.
3. Give Pakistan helicopters, night vision, radar to fight a counter-insurgency, it doesn’t need conventional arms from America.
4. Give Pakistan a break in trade agreements. The all- important textile industry needs a lifeline.
5. Make India part of the equation for stabilising Kashmir, by recognising Pakistan’s security concerns on its eastern border.
6. The United States should reshape its Afghan policy to take into account Pakistan’s security concerns, otherwise no strategy will work.
7. Pakistan must also tell the United States that sending more troops to Afghanistan without a change in strategy will backfire.
8. Policies to stabilise Afghanistan should not end up destabilising Pakistan. The Taliban should be prised away from al Qaeda, and a reconciliation process with the Taliban begun.

President Asif Ali Zardari in an op-ed piece for the Washington Post also covered some of that ground, urging the new U.S. administration to boost both military and non-military aid to help Pakistan fight extremists. “Give us the tools and we will get the job done,” he wrote.

And he made clear too he expected Holbrooke to work with both Pakistan and India on the issue of Kashmir, although as special envoy for Afghanistan and Pakistan, India was technically not part of his remit.

 ”Much as the Palestine issue remains the core obstacle to peace in the Middle East, the question of Kashmir must be addressed in some meaningful way to bring stability to the region,” Zardari said.

Reasonable expectations of a sovereign nation ? Or is the time for expectations over ?

[Pics of Richard Holbrooke and a protest in Karachi against U.S. missile strikes in the northwest]

242 comments

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Why do we need eight points to describe Pakistan’s agenda.

” Don’t hurt our militants,but give us aid,military goods so we can use it for a future covert operation against India. But in the end don’t expect a damn from us because it will destabilize our pure nation”.

I think that’s what Ms.Lodhi is trying to say.

Posted by mitchell | Report as abusive

to me it sound like,

give us the money, give us the arms,
give us kashmir, and give us afghans.

and then shut up.
:D

p.s.: pakistan seems to have a pathological obsession about kashmir. urgent treatment is necessary before they sacrifice pakistan for kashmir.

Posted by basu | Report as abusive

“5.Make India part of the equation for stabilising Kashmir, by recognising Pakistan’s security concerns on its eastern border.”

This statement is really obnoxious for an Indian observer because pakistan is primarily responsible for all the militancy fiasco in its eastern border. The primary solution also lie with the pakistani state-CURB MILITANCY WITH HONESTY.
If it succeeds in curbing militancy then the entire world will pressurize India for talks,but until Pakistan realize this sane solution it will be a hell for Pakistan in both of its borders.

Posted by mitchell | Report as abusive

Well we all know what pakistan will expect:

Kashmir/Money/Arms/Chicks/Drugs………

But million dollar question is, will Holbrooke listen to these demands ??

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive

These are reasonable expectations, & if they are not met as per Pakistans accordance there will only be more bloodshed in the region. India has effectively frozen the conflict in Kashmir & hence is contributing to t-ist attacks such as those which occured in Mumbai. Afghanistan on the other hand, has only 5% of the country under government control…so how can Pakistan be blamed for all that is going on?

I am not saying Pakistan is innocent…however all three nations (Ind,Pakistan,Afg) have a role to play & hence should fulfill their responsibilities in the region

Posted by Qasim | Report as abusive

@ mitchell

With respect, militancy in the South Asia region is primarily fuelled by the butchery of Indian troops in Kashmir.Few outside the region know that India maintains half a million troops in the valley,against a population of four million.Indian troops have dug mass graves for Kashmiris,is it oblivious to you that violence breeds violence?

Google “Kashmir mass graves Amnesty International”

Posted by Qasim | Report as abusive

Well we all know what pakistan will expect:

Kashmir/Money/Arms/Chicks/Drugs………

But million dollar question is, will Holbrooke listen to these demands ??

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive

@basu

Pakistanis dont have an obsession with Kashmir;few have ever been there & we know its just a rallying card for our military to stay in power. In private dinner conversations,we sometimes wish it could be given away so as to just “get on with it” i.e. make peace in South Asia & move towards trade,cooperation & an eventual economic union.Pakistan wants to solve the crisis & General Musharraf even made an offer to meet India halfway over Kashmir. Did india listen? NO!!

In addition, Indian intelligence agency RAW has been sending terrorists into Pakistan to destabalize Balochistan province. How can we make peace with a neighbour that kills our citizens?

On the one hand, India sits on the table & talks peace with us. On the other hand,it sends terrorists into our country to kill our citizens. If this is not hypocrisy,then I dont know what is

Posted by Qasim | Report as abusive

@punjabiyaar

Pakistan believes it is at the centre of a join Indo/US/Afghan pact to dismember it…its a widespread feeling in our country. I hope its wrong,and I hope its proven wrong….but I doubt Holbrooke will want to listen to us. He will collaborate with our neighbours to try & destabalize us

Posted by Qasim | Report as abusive

Excellent Points by Dr.Lodhi. Pakistan is not reponsible for Militancy but the rise of Fundamentalism among the followers of Hinduism,Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Pakistan just doesn’t have any able leader and strong media presence in the world to counter these issues. To Indians all I can say is if you want to be a player then here is what you need to do:

Stop blaming ISI for all your problems
Stop harassing & killing minorities in India
Work on your infrastructure if you want to compete with China.
Start treating 300 Mil Dalits as human beings
Look at all the Independence movements in India(no International coverage).
Stop interfering in other countries affairs e.g 1971 East Pakistan affair, Sri Lanka, Afghanistan etc
Stop blaming ISI for all your problems

The list can go on but Indians like Pakistanis tend to igonore the root cause as always. Good Luck.

Posted by K.M Sheikh | Report as abusive

Pakistan military is a islamic mafia with interests in drugs (for funding terrorism) and terrorism. It openly uses nuclear blackmail to defend its existense. Remind me what brought Musharaff on track after his initial bouts at Kargil and 9/11? Oh it was long economic sanctions and technology denial. In the short term this is the only weapon which will work. In long run hope you have perfected your anti ballastic missile shield!

Posted by Alok | Report as abusive

Qasim,
Let’s not forget that India or Kashmir is not in Holbrooke’s agenda. So collaborating with you neighbor there is no plural.

Posted by Blogger | Report as abusive

If president of Somalia or palestain asks for a aid there is a meaning to it..but why is prez of pakistan asking for it ? Pakistan has rich natural resources, has ample man power and talent what it lacks is a good leadership to make use of what is available..the so called sovereignity is lost the moment the head of the country resort to begging, the worst part of it is creating a sense of holding a giving country like US at ransom by calling the process of cleaning the self-created mess as fighting american war…
The mentallity of the head of pakistan is so much reflecting in the people of that nation.look the banner they hold in the picture, “first gift of Obama” ?? So these people like their leader expected a goodies basket as gift from Obama !! why the heck should Obama give pakis a gift ??what for ?? For sucessfull 9/11 or mumbai operation ??
Sovereignity is respected if the foreign aid comes into this country to clean the mess..but it is lost if a foreign soldier steps in to do the same !!
This guy, zardari is a joker if not begger..

Posted by Anitha | Report as abusive

@Blogger

The conflicts in Kashmir & Afghanistan are linked because they have been fought by the same people,in the name of liberation…ie liberating Kashmir from Indian rule & liberating Afghanistan from Western forces. T

The Pakistani army already has to contend with insurgents on its NW border, so it would be helpful,for the sake of India AND Pakistan,if Kashmir gets solved because then our army will be able to concentrate on the threat from the Tlbn & wipe them out

Posted by Qasim | Report as abusive

Interpreting Ms.Maleeha’s demands:
1. U.S. missile attacks on Pakistani territory should end.

We are the best armed force in the world. If drone attacks do not end, we will keep protesting…

2. Assistance under the Biden-Luger bill should be offered
with no strings attached.

Pakistan if fighting America’s war against terror. We would have been happy to have Al-Qaeda and Taleban based in NWFP/FATA, as long as they stayed there, or in Afghanistan. Since or army now has to fight against the tribals it trained to destabilize the world, give us all your money or else…

3. Give Pakistan helicopters, night vision, radar to fight a counter-insurgency, it doesn’t need conventional arms from America.

We have an out-of-control small arms industry in FATA, that we outsource to. We need the helicopters, night vision, radar to fight a low-intensity conflict against tribals who fight with AK-47s and missiles on land.

4. Give Pakistan a break in trade agreements. The all- important textile industry needs a lifeline.

We were so busy manufacturing terrorists that we forgot the all-important textile industry earns FOREX and is required to keep the country afloat. Our terrorist exports are getting returned due to low demand in other countries and we are now trying to keep the stock in NWFP/FATA.

5. Make India part of the equation for stabilising Kashmir, by recognising Pakistan’s security concerns on its eastern border.

We destabilised Kashmir so much that we now need India to stabilize Kashmir and make sure that the exported terrorists are not returned. India should ensure that terrorists not come back from its side of the border as we do not honor a returns policy with India.

6. The United States should reshape its Afghan policy to take into account Pakistan’s security concerns, otherwise no strategy will work.

Do it my way or we will not fight the NWFP/FATA militants.

7. Pakistan must also tell the United States that sending more troops to Afghanistan without a change in strategy will backfire.

I am scared Afghanistan will get more secure and the exported Taleban will take refuge in Pakistan’s uncontrolled areas. We already have a lot of mess on our hands and the army will falter if militant ranks swell.

8. Policies to stabilise Afghanistan should not end up destabilising Pakistan. The Taliban should be prised away from al Qaeda, and a reconciliation process with the Taliban begun.

Oops… I reworded point 7 as point 8. However, we are trying to come up with good taleban and bad taleban concept so that no one knows what we fighting against.

Posted by Jerry | Report as abusive

It is high time that India appoint an envoy to Pakistan-Afghanistan and monitor the activities of USA, China, Saudi and others in that area. Any foreign donor to Pakistan should certify that the aid is not going to be used to train terrorists or any other anti-India activities. India has been too soft and passive on this. Look how Israel controls it’s borders and neighbors. The terrorism that India is facing for last 30 years is the result of this uncontrolled, unmonitored foreign aid $$ pouring in to Pakistan. Foreigners donate money, weapons, use Pakistan as they want and leave. Ordinary Pakistanis, Kashmiris and Indians suffer. India should question these foreign donors and demand a compliance certificate that their aid is not used for anti-India activities.

Posted by danny | Report as abusive

The new Indian envoy to Pakistan-Afghanistan should also make sure that any military hardware US brings to the region takes it back to US after the mission is accomplished or donated to Afghanistan. Pakistan should never get access to those hardware. Every time Pakistan gets new military stuff, it runs to test those on India. Any military aid to Pakistan should be accountable and approved by India. Because India is the victim of US military aid to Pakistan. Again, why should US tax payers pay for Pakistan military to kill Indians. Let Pakistan military maintain a size it can afford. No country maintains an over-sized military on donations or begging.

Posted by danny | Report as abusive

The new Indian envoy to Pakistan-Afghanistan should make sure that any military hardware US brings to the region takes it back to US after the mission is accomplished or donated to Afghanistan. Pakistan should never get access to those hardware. Every time Pakistan gets new military stuff, it runs to test those on India. Any military aid to Pakistan should be accountable and approved by India. Because India is the victim of US military aid to Pakistan. Again, why should US tax payers pay for Pakistan military to kill Indians. Let Pakistan military maintain a size it can afford. No country maintains an over-sized military on donations or begging.

Posted by David | Report as abusive

Just like Bin Laden is no position to demand or negotiate, Pakistan is no position to demand or negotiate. World has spent more than 2 trillion $$$ fighting the terrorists and the wars. And all that money was used to kill terrorists. Pakistan created Taliban and is the root cause of this. How much positive we could have done with 2 trillion $$$. We could have wiped out AIDS and 1o other diseases with part of that money. We could have gone outside solar system or made a base on Saturn with that money. But Pakistan forced us to spend that money on killing. We are in recession because of Pakistan , Bush got distracted by war on terror and economy got lose. Pakistan is a cancer and should be fixed ASAP!

Posted by wild | Report as abusive

I felt suicidal in my life and called up the support helpline.
The call went to Pakistan.I explained my situation to the person on the phone.I explained to him how I feel like killing myself.

The person on the phone was excited and asked me… “Can you drive a truck”!

Posted by nit | Report as abusive

Pakistan is at at it again with it perpetually empty begging bowl going door to door, its either whoring it self to the US or licking china’s ass, I think we will be better off helping india breakup pakistan in 4 new “istans” and while dismantling their nuclear forces. After that they can stew in their own religious hate and hypocrisy.

Posted by Kersi | Report as abusive

Qasim Wrote:
“Pakistan believes it is at the centre of a join Indo/US/Afghan pact to dismember it…its a widespread feeling in our country. I hope its wrong,and I hope its proven wrong”

I hope that your hopes dont make you hopeless. Reality is that we don’t discuss pakistan/china at all in our lives, our media or our policies. Well sometimes we discuss low quality of chinese products but Pakistan is only discussed when there is a terrorist attacks on the Indian soil.

Yes I believe pakistan should be dismembered and split into small toothless states, if pakistan dont stop sponsoring terrorism. But there is a BIG IF in between. What else can one do when you dont stop this crap. Nobody wants to be under constant fear and danger of another bomb blast or another mumbai attack or another 9/11.

It is pakistans duty to deal with terrorist elements as they had created them, if they cant do it themselves, ask India for help. But they are so filled of hate and anger, that they feel ashamed of asking help from India.

At long as Pakistan make terrorists there will be probabily and effort to dismember it.

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive

Well, All Pakistan wants it seems is equality with India. When it is unable to control its existing terriotories what would it do in case India agrees(hypothetical situation) to part with kashmir ? Pakistan needs a governement that probably can control its armed forces otherwise they are not going to be effective in achieving anything from US perspective imho.

Posted by Michael | Report as abusive

On the lighter side:

An insect falls into a mug of beer….

American : Takes the insect out and drinks the beer
Chinese : Eats the insect and throws the beer away
Indian : Sells the beer to the American and insect to the Chinese and gets a new mug of beer..

Pakistani : Accuses the Indian for throwing insect into his beer. Relates the issue to Kashmir. Asks the Chinese for Military aid. Takes a loan from the American to buy one more mug of beer, but never used it for beer (You know where will they spend it)

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive

@Quasim,
‘people who live in glass houses should not throw stone on others’:)
Let the Indian forces move away from kashmir and make it a SWAT,is it? Why is that people who mention Kashmir aggression always forget the Pakistani incompetency in Bangladesh?

Posted by mitchell | Report as abusive

An another lighter side:

No offense meant to any nation!

During the war,two soldiers are discussing,
SOLDIER A:How will we stop our neighbor’s tank that is approaching towards us?
SOLDIER B:Shoot the men who are pushing it.

Posted by mitchell | Report as abusive

if Mr Holbrooke is going to ignore Pakistani views and expectations, he should not even bother showing up.

Pakistan is nation who’s leaders are beggars. leave them on their own and their nation will self destruct into smaller provinces. The world will be relieved at the demise of pakistan, the epicentre of all terrorism.

Posted by Rajen | Report as abusive

Simon
170 million muslims people, a nation bestowed with all kind of national resources, professional military and nuclear weapons. A desire to live with peace, honour and dignity. Well enough is enough, it is about time Pakistan’s soverignity is respected. Otherwise with a sinking economy and resurgent Russia, American worlwide influence is already declining. China has aspirations, Russia will not mind good relations. Iran is at our doorstep and we have precious toys to sell them in exchange for just about anything from oil to a military alliance and defence pact. The options for Pakistan are much better and provide the much needed breathing space while for the US time is not on their side. Before Mr. Hoolbroke cathes a flight to Islamabad he must make sure he does his homework. US victory in Afghanistan is impossible without active pakistan cooperation. Active Pakistan cooperation is impossible without US recognition of Pakistan’s legitimate security concerns.
Good luck Pakistan.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

@Umair wrote:
“Before Mr. Hoolbroke cathes a flight to Islamabad he must make sure he does his homework”

On the contrary Pakistan should be prepared to agree everything Americans say. Otherwise If they stop the aid, half of the Pakis will have no food and they will be eating each other.

And as Mushy said, Americans will make a TORA BORA out of you.

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive

@All
Be in Pakistans position:
1) An emerging power on the eastern end with a clear agenda against pakistan and an obsession to prove its regional imperialist view. Moreover time and again have proven with actions its absolute rejection to accept Pakistans existence and have hardly ever over the past 62 years have let go any possibility to lessen the exposure that destabilizes its neighbor.
2) A turbulent neighbor on the western border who has been an open war ground of 20 years of cold war during which they have only learnt to count bullets in or out of guns.
3) Meagre non existent govt. structure rigged with corruption.

Given the above frame, Pakistan cannot be let to go down hill anymore and if agenda is not tailored to balance security and economy at the same time in the country, the nation of 170 Mio can prove inevitable death pill for the world. Pakistan has to rely on the world stage with dependable powers and policies to defy the norms and for this reason Mr. Richard better listen and adhere to the agenda or else the world migraine with be very painful.

Posted by Pakistan | Report as abusive

@Blogger

Well it SHOULD be on his agenda because the only way to solve Afghanistan is through resolution of Kashmir first. Its the long term solution to the crisis & will be beneficial to everyone in the region…ignoring the Kashmir issue & dealing with Pakistan-Afghanistan independant of that will only lead to short term solutions.

And we all know what short term solutions bring….they are useless & usually result in further conflict

Posted by Qasim | Report as abusive

“Reasonable expectations of a sovereign nation? Or is the time for expectations over?”

–Pakistan has never established itself as a Sovereign Nation, it’s either been under the thumb of a despot or a toothless provisional government, as in the present scenario…
The crux of the matter is , if there had been any faith in Pakistan to sincerely neutralize terror or live up to it’s promises, then why send a Holbrooke in the first place, & ultimately, the empathy shown towards the Taliban, divulges the ominous designs….

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

Pakistan has suffered the most because of the ‘war of terror.’ What did India do to help the West. Zilch.

India meanwhile supported the Tamil Terrorist for 20 years. They are the biggest Hypocrites.

Holbrooke better come to Pakistan to listen. If he comes as a an Indian stooge he’d better not bother.

@punjabiyaar

“Yes I believe pakistan should be dismembered and split into small toothless states”—> Good yaar. You have proven my point.And you should be proud of your patriotic fervour in wishing this blow upon your enemy;however I have a warning for Indians who speak of dividing Pakistan to eliminate terror.

And my warning is,that beware of the destabalized neighbour.Look at how much Pakistan has had to deal with just because it shares its vicinity with Afghanistan….over the last 30 years Pakistan has had to deal with the effects of blowback from Afghanistan.

Similarly, if Pakistan were to break up into small states, they would not be “toothless” as you wish. There would be internecine warfare & the bloodshed would spill over into Hindustan. Suicide bombings, intifada, sabotage, murder, kidnapping, assassination etc would all spill over into your country if mine were dismembered. So if you speak of the breakup of Pakistan & get smug,think again…

Posted by Qasim | Report as abusive

Punjabiyaar
f*ckoff

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

@mitchell

Whatever,we never wanted Bangladesh & the arrangement never made sense anyways.You on the other hand,have clearly forgotten that while there are DOZENS of liberation struggles taking place in india…Kashmir,Assam,Meghalaya,Manipur,Mi zoram,Tripura,
Nagaland,Chattisgirh & Andhra Pradesh

If Pakistan really was a glass house,why didnt India walk in after 26/11? :)

Huhh?

You are not accepting the truth,which is that your country is scared of Pakistan

Posted by Qasim | Report as abusive

@Umair – “Otherwise with a sinking economy and resurgent Russia, American worlwide influence is already declining. China has aspirations, Russia will not mind good relations. Iran is at our doorstep and we have precious toys to sell them in exchange for just about anything from oil to a military alliance and defence pact. The options for Pakistan are much better and provide the much needed breathing space while for the US time is not on their side”

Do you really think when pakistan stands opposite to US, Iran , Russia and China will side pakistan ??
Russia has already signed deal with US for transit route, US if needed can offer much better eye catching offers of toys that you say will pull China and Iran to side pakistan..
Sorry but Mr.Holbrooke is only coming to pakistan for some arm twisting and understandably Please notice how many previous bomb blast culprits are cought in just a week after Obama talked about CONDITIONAL aid and named Holbrooke for pakistan.

Posted by Anitha | Report as abusive

@mitchell

There are more liberation struggles taking place in India than the ones I have named;however much you may diss Pakistan always remember that Pakistan took land away from you,in the shape of Azad Kashmir.

We are a country 7-8 times smaller in terms of land & 3 times smaller in military terms…if I were you,I would be embarassed at having ceded land to a tiny neighbour,hahaha

Posted by Qasim | Report as abusive

But the question is – would Pakistan be in a position to tame these aspiration before a donor and messiah America.

Posted by dadhichd | Report as abusive

Qasim
“If Pakistan really was a glass house,why didnt India walk in after 26/11? ”

—Who wants to walk in such a filthy & messed up place? we not out of our minds, but be rest assured, Mumbai will be answered, this ‘Glass House’of yours shall be demolished… You’ll started it & paid no heeds of repeated warnings, therefore to finish it off is our right & privilege…

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

More IMF funds hahah what else Pakistan is surviving on???

Posted by Afghan | Report as abusive

Although i am of pakistani desent I will talk about this issue from a third persons perspective. Firstly, Pakistan has an advantage over India because Pakistan has much to offer United States. Pakistan is leading the war on terror. Secondly without Pakistan how will United States policies towards Afghanistan be carried out? Pakistan can negotiate with the States to pressure India into dealing with Kashmir in a more sensitive manner rather than ignoring the situation in hopes of the best results. Lastly, if hypothetically United States turns on Pakistan the countries such as China, Saudia Arabia, Russia, all arab nations, and possibly even Britain might consider siding with Pakistan. The people of Pakistan and India are caught up in the propoganda, and need to unite. We need to stop the hostilities towards each other and increase trades this will ultimately create positive reactions for all of Asia…and for terrorism they will have a harder time trying to establishing there ideology…PEOPLE OF INDIA AND PAKISTAN THIS IS THE TIME TO UNITE NOT FURTHER FUEL TENSIONS…PROPAGANDA IS THE REAL ENEMY.

Posted by Talha Rehman | Report as abusive

What is Afghanistan surviving : Heroin and aid.

Pakistan is an integral partner of the US in the war on terror and without Pakistan, the war cannot be won.

@Qasim
“Yes I believe pakistan should be dismembered and split into small toothless states”

I was 400% sure you will quote this, But I also said IF PAKISTAN DOES NOT STOP EXPORT OF TERRORISM. You missed that buddy.

“Similarly, if Pakistan were to break up into small states, they would not be “toothless” as you wish.”

Its your history whenever Muslims are divided they fighting each other rather than a common enemy (Which you believe is West, India, Israel and 1000 other nations)

And we will make sure that all parts of former PAK is supplied with Arms and ammunition as last nail in the coffin.

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive

Hundreds of protesters have clashed with police in Srinagar, summer capital of Indian-administered Kashmir, police and officials say.

The demonstrators were rallying for the release of separatist leaders who have been detained in recent months.

They chanted slogans in support of independence for Kashmir and threw stones at security forces who fired tear gas shells to control the crowd.

The leaders were detained during elections held in December and January.

Posted by ALI | Report as abusive

Umair asking me to f*ckoff

Seems like some Paki ass on fire, Umair just tie a 4000 Kilo Warhead around your waist, yes yes where you guys tie bomb on sucide mission.

I bet you will cruise faster than your Korean Gauri or Shaheen missile.

It will be cheaper too. In fact free, who needs people in your country.

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive

Pakistan needs to reclaim its full natural geographic ‘space’ in order for stability to return to the region. This calls for a Greater Pakistan, or what the Indians can call ‘Akhand’ Pakistan, comprising of southern Afghanistan including Kabul, Kashmir, and maybe Indian Punjab. This will end Indian tendency to abuse Pakistan, end Pakistani insecurity about Indian intentions, and help both normalize ties.

Posted by Jon Nicolucci | Report as abusive

Well said Bangash Khan. Not stereotyping but your name says all about you. Its so Talibani Name hahah

“Pakistan is an integral partner of the US in the war on terror and without Pakistan, the war cannot be won.”

I agree with you and this is the point where I have been stressing on from the time I started bloging. Pakistan is the route of all evil, how can US win a war without Pakistan when Pakistan is still funding terrorist in both side of its borders.

Don’t Worry these Taliban are so going to destroy Pakistan. (Insha-allah) Just wait and watch. Deep down in your heart you know that Taliban can thrive a lot more in Pakistan than Afghanistan because 95% of your fellow terrorist country men are standing by their side.

You can’t run. On the West there are millions of Afghans anxious to see an ultimate destruction of Pakistan and on the West there are millions of Angry Indians who want to take their revenge back.

I am looking forward to see BJP win the election in India and see the start of an ending of Pakistan.

Don’t I just love to hate you terrorist Pakistanis>? hahah

Posted by Afghan | Report as abusive

Afghan, you missed out the third border where Pakistan indulges in cross border terrorism. The international community is not realizing the gravity of the emerging “Pakistan problem”.

http://www.haber27.com/news_detail.php?i d=21127

30 Ocak 2009 Cuma 19:27
Despite our diplomatic efforts and our contact with the Pakistani police, Pakistan’s Baluchistan Province has become a safe haven for militants, smugglers and drug lords,” said Iran’s Deputy Police Chief Ahmad-Reza Radan on Thursday.

Radan blamed the unrest on the failure of Pakistan’s border police to secure their side of the border.

“If Islamabad gives us the go-ahead, we will enter Pakistani soil and begin an operation against the militants,” Radan added.

The Iranian deputy police chief went on call for further cooperation from Pakistani security forces and authorities.

1) Every dollar & every gun donated to pak is for use against India and nothing else. Of course, this is after 80% of the money goes to a select few generals and a couple of mullahs. Labels like Military/nonmilitary aid make no difference.

2) Root-Cause-Analysis: Real culprits of all pak problems are a bunch of top military honchos. They live in villas, have accumulated vast real estate and Millions in secret Swiss/Dubai accounts. Their source of income is America. To safeguard this continuous flood of wealth, the military has strategized all their political, military, ISI, LeT, JeM and the propaganda maneuvers for the last half century with consistently spectacular gain in wealth. In this Machiavellian, sometimes arm-twisting, other times begging, strategy, the pak military has no parallel in the rest of the countries of the world.

3) Every thing the military does is a sophisticated, elaborate FACADE. Examples of these ingenuous facades: the pak military(pm) fights militants, pm fights to take back Swat valley, pm caught ‘n’ number of militants in a “raid”, “militants(pm is disguise)” attack American convoy and steal Humvees, pm closes down LeT, pm will prosecute the Mumbai terrorists, pm does not control the PM, pm needs ultra sophisticated F16s equipped with surface to surface missiles to fight the militants, pm needs radars capable of monitoring Indian air-space but needed to fight militants in North-West region, pm needs hundreds of helicopters capable of reaching Delhi but required to fight militants, pm needs Billions of dollars to stabilize the democratic! government (behind the facade-money for the propaganda to indoctrinate the pak people to hate America).

4) pm has had very good excuses employed in US arm twisting – the big gold mine was the Russian war in Afghan. Now, the rain of gold from Americans, is facilitated for the imaginary pm fight against the militants (gullible Americans call it the War on Terror). The pm is enduring(!) such heavy cost in materials/tools and loss of thousands of little pm people. To keep the cards close, pm does not allow any foreign, independent correspondents in, the reason given is – it’s not a safe area!, If someone like the Wall Street Journal’s Daniel Pearl dares to come in, he is eliminated and a video is published. The pm had no hand in it!
And best of all excuses, the good-old war on Kashmir is always there as a fall-back.

Posted by dd | Report as abusive

@anup

You cannot say Pakistan started any of this T-ism nonsense, because you are ignoring the root cause…and the root cause is that there were Kashmiris being trampled on in their own homeland. Why would you want to subjugate,humiliate,rape & murder an innocent population just because they dont want to be with you? They would never have asked Pakistan for help if they felt their rights were being respected.

If the Pakistani military had been satisfied with the Kashmir issue,this 20 year rebellion against Indian rule would never have happened. Kindly look at your own house & get yourself in order;before you point fingers at Pakistan

Posted by Qasim | Report as abusive

@punjabiyaar

Fine,I accept your position is reasonable…because your desires & my desires are similar. As a Pakistani,I feel its in our OWN INTEREST to end T-ism and its in our OWN INTEREST to have good relations with our neighbour. We ourself hate the Tlbn & want them exterminated.

However,all I am saying is that if India wants T-ism eliminated from Pakistan,it should lend us a helping hand by

1. Solving Kashmir so as to satisfy all parties & reduce a cause of militancy,and

2. Stop exporting T-ism to Pakistan itself by conductinG RAW operations in Balochistan

If your country wants to solve T-ism,it should lend Pakistan a helping hand instead of acting emotional & throwing tantrums

Posted by Qasim | Report as abusive

@punjabiyaar

*correction*

I meant that India should stop exporting T-ism to Pakistan & prevent RAW from fanning the flames of revolt in Balochistan…maybe I wasnt clear in my last post

Posted by Qasim | Report as abusive

@Afghan

If you want to hate Pakistanis,go ahead man. And if you think we really GIVE A DAMN,keep thinking so….

Posted by Qasim | Report as abusive

Splitting up Pakistan would make everyone happier, even Pakistan. It has been so much stress and pain for everyone in Pakistan to even live there, with all that fear, dissappointment and its own self delusional threat of war with India.

It is best if Pakistan, is divided along Pashtun, Punjabi, Balochistan, Sindh, SWAT, NWFP, FATA, etc ethnic lines. Each group would be happier, as they now have their own land. Why should the one province of Punjab keep their foot on everyone else’s backyard, the other provinces don’t even want to be a part of Pakistan.

This would regionally speaking, stabilize each agitated sector of the now Pakistan. The FATA and NWFP can be saved for the tribesmen an the ultraviolent Jihadi Terrorists. In fact, NWFP and FATA should be used as a penal colony.

Invite all jihadis to come there for a good Jihad, and I mean a very good heavy jihad, let them come there and fight in the open, away from women, children, schools, let them fight like men. The west and the rest of what was once Pakistan can supply soldiers to keep these cancerous terrorists in their own backyard.

As far as the nukes go, the west can easily bribe the Pak military and ISI to give those up, it is not really tough to bribe those who are already beyond corrupt.

As far as Khalistan goes, if the Jihadi Khalistani Sikh Terrorists want Khalistan, they can form it out of Pakistani Punjab, which is the ancestral home of their 50 year empire.

No more terrorism, no more drones, everyone is happy. You will now have 10-15 smaller countries, which can donate all the soldiers it wants to fight the Jihadis.

The Pakistani military would be dismantled, nukes removed and you could pay off those who run the command structure to go live abroad, where it is more peaceful anyway, let them goto Dubai, if they wish.

Pakistan was never truly a sovereign nation any way. Stripping it of statehood, would stabilize the whole region in SE asia. To counteract any collateral problems from the Balkanized Pakistan, India could post 5 million troops along its Western Border.

@Qasim, if the Pakistani’s want to butcher each other, that is their prerogative. But if they are truly peaceful people, like you all claim, rather than people on who peace was imposed by the Pak Govt. then there will be little or no violence, just each ethnicity of Pakistan enjoying autonomy.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

Afghan
your country is a f*cking narco-state and your so-called president Karzai is merely the mayor of Kabul. He cant even leave the green zone out of Kabul. While Taliban rule 60% of your country. What the heck are you bragging about?

Any you Punjabiyaar
As before my reply to you again is f*ck off.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Punjabiyaar
“On the contrary Pakistan should be prepared to agree everything Americans say. Otherwise If they stop the aid, half of the Pakis will have no food and they will be eating each other.
And as Mushy said, Americans will make a TORA BORA out of you.”

Let me correct you buddy, American themselves are starving, what aid will they give us? their own economy is in tatters. Pakistan is a huge agricultural country and we grow our own corps from rice to cotton. Pakistan had a balance of payment crisis and we got an IMF loan, problem solved. I have worked and traveled abroad and cross the globe their are millions of Pakistanis from America to Europe to Australia. If they were all to send their remmittances, we will have excess foregn exchange reserves.
As far as American bombing Pakistan, well you know buddy Army chief of staff stated Pakistan can respond to any Indian attack “within minutes” same applies to the US. As soon as they muster the balls to bomb Pakistan, retaliation will begin.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

@Umair, Qasim, Bangash,

Should the U.S. and India just start backing the winning side? We should all just support the Taliban, since they seem to be beating the Pakistani Army everywhere.

Does it not just make more sense to talk directly with Mullah Omar, the Taliban leader, at least he will be honest, not take free weapons, money and food, like the Government of Pakistani and its Army. Mullah Omar is Fundamental Islamic and does not believe in nukes, I think he would hand those nukes over to the U.S. in a heartbeat, if he were promised good things in Pakistan.

This has been quite an oversite by millions. It would be easier dealing with Mullah Omar, wouldn’t it?

Posted by Deoband Terrorism Watcher | Report as abusive

Only 3rd party to Kashmir issue could have been Sarah Palin. Zardari would have sold Kashmir issue and signed whatever on the issue for a hug. Alas her party lost. lol

Guys a visit the Kashmir history before talking about half million troups in Kasmir will be helpful. Mr Qasim, precisely half million Kasmiri pundits had to leave their beloved homeland (KASHMIR), not to forget their genocide and rape (or was it all staged). Never once I heard over the blog about them. I personally know a Kashmiri family who lost 2 lives, one permanent mental disability, their house burnt and they left. I have heard enough from them and many other families who are close to ground zero. Kashmiri undid their cause that time by not supporting Pundits. Don;t tell me they would like to live in Independent Kashmir (only to undergo the same atrocities).

BTW, Pakistan is the cause for what POOR INNOCENT KASHMIRIS are facing today. Pakistan never actually wanted to solve the Kashmir issue from day 1 for a simple reason that shouting over divided Kashmir unites Pakistan and is a handy tool to create Jihadis which will keep India busy in trouble for much larger agenda—-Remember this line by Pakistan “Lad key Liya Pakistan, Has Key Leyngey Hindustan”? explains. Plus Pak knew that India’s foreign policy is going to be peaceful approach (think about Gandhi, Nehru) and may really lead to Independent Kashmir? Nehru was the one to announce UN involvement despite strong suggestions not to do so. He actually wanted Independent Kashmir and plebiscite? So Pak started its overt/covert operations/Jihadis/Pak Army/ISI amalgam. So here we are. BUT NOW WE ARE LOOKING AT A VISIT FROM MILIBAND JUMPING UP AND DOWN.

Religion was misused to create trouble. If Kashmir is about Kashmiris, then why Kashmiri Pundits were pushed out (nothing like a clash of faiths as tool since all are suckers for religion). To add fuel to the fire waged wars and made sure that the issue persists till eternity.

Independence of Kashmir really is not about Kashmiris, it is about Pakistan. How much Pak is doing good to Kashmir is so visible in this bogus Azad Kashmir. A neutral comparison of what India and Pak did for Kashmiris is stark. And they have the nerve to say that they care about Kashmiris. Azad Kashmir is occupied by terrorists and ruled by a Pakistani PM. The stark differences between the so-called Azad Kashmir and Indian Kashmir by any neutral analysis tells the lack of sincerity of Pakistan towards Kashmiris. While India has article 370 giving special status including others not able to buy property in Kashmir—working towards favorable conditions for plebescite, Pak allowed several thousand non-Kashmiri families to settle in POK. Pakistan destroyed the original demographics by ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri Pundits and asking for plebiscite through ISI’s Jihad. Did Pak conduct a plebiscite before starting Jihad (sorry terrorism)—-starting a strategy for the cause of Kashmiris without consulting—great help. How about Mangla Dam story-How many Kashmiris were thrown out of Pakistan (lost jobs in the wake of the construction of Mangla Dam). Now Dam supplies 65% of the Pak electricity needs, but the so-called Azad Kashmir does not get any royalty. Pakistan’s earns over Rs. 50 crores from the electricity produced at Mangla and the total budget of the Azad Kashmir is 20% it!!!!

Pakistani guys, you really do not have any ground to talk about the cause of Kashmiris since Pak has made sure that independent Kashmir does not become a possibility.

There are lots of naïve statements in fashion these days” “If Kashmir gets solved” then Pak will be able to focus better on the threat from the terrorists on W. border and also it will bring peace in the region. Will all these terrorists become Gandhi—India, Pak, Kashmir Afghanistan will be heaven!
Is Kashmir the reason for Darfur Congo Rwanda conflicts? I am sure someone cam link that.
Is there anyone ready to put his/her neck on the block for peace/stability in the region after “Independent Kashmir”?? Perhaps your dear so-sure Miliband can.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

@UMAIR,

By the way, your remittances, you claim expatriates are willing to send to Pakistan, usually end up in the Terrorism Circles or to Al-Qaeda. All the Mosques in North America are under a Financial Trace Watch, that is, their money that leaves the Mosques, especially the “Zakat” money ends up in the hands of terrorists, somehow and lots is skimmed along the way into peoples pockets.

The west’s terrorism watch is keep a close eye on the monies sent abroad, especially to Pakistan.

By the way UMAIR, I bet you $100 rupees, (Pakistani ones of course, they are not worth much these days), that the Taliban will take over Pakistan. It is sad to say this but I think that will happen. Pakistan does not have the inner strength and will to fight extremism and win for good.

Posted by Deoband Terrorism Watcher | Report as abusive

Anup wrote:
“—Who wants to walk in such a filthy & messed up place? we not out of our minds, but be rest assured, Mumbai will be answered,”

Dil ko behlane ke liye Khayal acha hey Ghalib. India did not set the right example after the parliament attack in Delhi in 2001. Had India attacked Pakistan at that time Mumbai 2008 would never had happened? right? you think so?
Hey Anup, here is a question for you, think about it in loneliness. Can India really attack Pakistan? will Pakistan not retaliate? can India survive a Pakistani counter attack? given Pakistan now is a nuclear power. Do you really think Pakistan has no right to soverignity? Mark my words, Pakistan will redefine the rules of engagement. You need to get it straight in your head! YOU ARE DEALING WITH A NUCLEAR POWER WHICH IS CAPABLE OF DESTROYING INDIA. After this you must make clear choices as to waht really is your right and previlige.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Qasim,
“if I were you,I would be embarassed at having ceded land to a tiny neighbour,hahaha”

That sound like non-sense. When did India lost some piece of land to a tiny neighbor to get embarrassed? Again as I said before ‘people who live in glass houses should not throw stone on others’ .Remember SWAT and Bangladesh.

Posted by mitchell | Report as abusive

lets all join together and stand united and say DEATH TO PAKISTAN AND ITS TERRORIST PEOPLE. hahah

Posted by Afghan | Report as abusive

UMAIR
“YOU ARE DEALING WITH A NUCLEAR POWER WHICH IS CAPABLE OF DESTROYING INDIA.”

If it means getting rid of the pakis so be it. India has over 1.1 billion people, if they lose 200 million, at least they will get rid of your god forsaken nation.

Posted by digitalcntrl | Report as abusive

mr.zardari added a few more to this list
9) give me sarah palin. no strings attached
10)give me my 10% on all deals. it is ok even if you dont give the rest of the money.
11) give us night vision equipments and viagra..to peek on ladies and to do an “in” “surge” nt “operation”

Gen Kayani added
12) give admission for my son in stanford, just as you gave it for the dump son of Musharraf. And no tuition fee please.
13) publish the book I wrote. it is better than the complete lies of musharraf published earlier
14) pentagon process my payroll. yes i like dollars

Posted by lions | Report as abusive

@digitalcntrl

Rest assured, your wet dreams will remain just that…WET DREAMS!! hahaha

Posted by Qasim | Report as abusive

zardari added one more item
10) give me sarah palin. no strings attached

Posted by bala | Report as abusive

@mitchell

With respect,why do you think Pakistan holds on to Azad Kashmir? Its something you claim but we proudly hold on to. I mean,sacrificing territories to larger powers is understandable owing to them having larger militaries.

But you have lost portions of Kashmir to Pakistan…

And dont talk about Swat,when vast swathes of Chattisgarh,Assam,Meghalaya,Manipur,Mizo ram,Tripura & Nagaland are not even in India’s control

Posted by Qasim | Report as abusive

On the one hand,India sits down & talks peace with us. On the other hand,it sends terrorists into Pakistan & kills our citizens. What sort of “peace” is this? How are we supposed to trust a neighbour thats routinely stabbing us in the back? Its a hypocritical game being played by India & its high time the world woke up to their atrocities in Balochistan.

Posted by Qasim | Report as abusive

Lets have a look at what Maleeha is saying and what is meant. My quotes in simple bracket

Here’s the Pakistani agenda as she sees it :
1. U.S. missile attacks on Pakistani territory should end.
(Everyone needs peace. So do the terrorist. let us give them peace and allow them to regroup)
2. Assistance under the Biden-Luger bill should be offered with no strings attached.
(We Pakistani’s dont believe in accountability. How dare you expect that from us)
3. Give Pakistan helicopters, night vision, radar to fight a counter-insurgency, it doesn’t need conventional arms from America.
(Our factory at Wah is useless. Its only to delude our citizens. Dont give conventional arms as we get them from china cheap anyway.)
4. Give Pakistan a break in trade agreements. The all- important textile industry needs a lifeline.
(We are in an economic mess. We beg countries for our survival. Plz save us.)
5. Make India part of the equation for stabilising Kashmir, by recognising Pakistan’s security concerns on its eastern border.
(We tried dragging her down for past 60 years still she is progressing. This is not fair.)
6. The United States should reshape its Afghan policy to take into account Pakistan’s security concerns, otherwise no strategy will work.
(A stable and independent Afghanistan will again start asking back balochistan and pakhtonistan. So plz let us have a puppet regime in afghanistan like we had in taliban)
7. Pakistan must also tell the United States that sending more troops to Afghanistan without a change in strategy will backfire.
(If no terrorist is able to penetrate in afghanistan then it will turn its attention to Pakistan. And we are already very irresponsible with our Nuclear weapons. To divert taliban attention We might mistakenly leave our N -weapon in their hands. Ask Libya and N Korea if you don’t believe our track record. )
8. Policies to stabilise Afghanistan should not end up destabilising Pakistan. The Taliban should be prised away from al Qaeda, and a reconciliation process with the Taliban begun.
(See point 6 above. And Talibanis are innocent kids who have fallen in bad company of Al-Qaeda. We created taliban to destabilize Afghanistan and JuD, LeT etc to destabilize India. These poor kids after getting influenced by Al-Qaeda are destabilizing Pakistan. Lets remove Al-Quaeda and correct the focus of these kids)

Posted by chirkut | Report as abusive

Afghan wrote:
“lets all join together and stand united and say DEATH TO PAKISTAN AND ITS TERRORIST PEOPLE. hahah”

suck my D*ck mother f*cker Afghan b*stard.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

another joke.May be Pakis can very well relate to .
Teacher: Why were you absent yesterday.
Student: Because of Kashmir
Teacher: Don’t try to deceive me. I know you didn’t do your homework. Show me your homework.Where is your homework?
Student: In Kashmir
Teacher: You have already failed last year and if you keep on giving Kashmir as reason for all your failure and don’t do anything fruitful, how will you pass?
Student: I don’t know. Ask Kashmir
Teacher: What joke is this. If principal will ask me what will i answers?
Student: Simple. Tell him Kashmir.See how we all pakis give Kashmir as root cause of terrorism, extremism, Nuclear proliferation and get away with everything. Why can’t you?
Teacher: Because of Kashmir.

Posted by chirkut | Report as abusive

Chirkut
Whatever Ambassador Maleeha Lodhi stated and the meanings you have derived make one thing evident. You are a drunk idiot. Look how India has become a laughing stock, now idiot dont tell me our beloved Satyam fraudster Ramalinga Raju was told by ISI to induldge in tax fraud. I am happy India is loosing respect internationally. Whether its corporate governance in question after Satyam fraud, or India security failure in Mumbai. F*CK INDIA THOUSAND TIMES.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

@ Umair
Ummmmmmmmmmm i don’t think ISI is behind Satyam farud.
Frauds of this magnitude require lot of skills, knowledge ,intelligence and above all those; Money. ISI being pakistani doesn’t possess those. It can only do sub-human activities like killing innocents by bomb-blast and aiding and abetting terrorism.

Posted by chirkut | Report as abusive

Umair,

Have you lost it completely?

Posted by indian1127 | Report as abusive

Umair is the best Pakistan has to offer.

The pinnacle of intelligence. Let the reasonable and intelligent voice of Pakistan speak!

Afghan, Chirkut, be careful, Umair is getting his suicide brigades and vests ready for use!

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

hahahah this is the funniest thing i have ever seen. as i being an Afghan and all the Indian brothers are trying to let the Terrorist Pakis know where they stand in international community, these Pakis have nothing else to say but to curse all us out hahaha Pakis get a life and you welcome to a civilized world if you stop being a terrorist. Umair i wont curse you because i dont stand in the same level as you do. you are a low class individual who doesnt have self respect and curse.
DEATH TO PAKISTAN AND ITS TERRORIST PEOPLE.
AMEEEEN.
hahahahah

Posted by Afghan | Report as abusive

Another classic from Umair:
“American themselves are starving, what aid will they give us? their own economy is in tatters. Pakistan is a huge agricultural country and we grow our own corps from rice to cotton. Pakistan had a balance of payment crisis and we got an IMF loan, problem solved.”

Umair are you Born Idiot or what. Check your budget and hefty bills your govt. sends to USA. You say american economy is going down ? At least they have a economy, You Import MORE than your export, how do you think you are covering the balance. You got IMF loan because USA was on your side. And believe me americans are not starving.

“I have worked and traveled abroad and cross the globe their are millions of Pakistanis from America to Europe to Australia. If they were all to send their remmittances, we will have excess foregn exchange reserves”

I have not seen a more idiotic hope than this. Your foriegn reserve comes from a bunch of TAXI DRIVERS working day and night ?? There has to be other sources in your case Loans / Grants / Donations / Aid.

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive

Umair
“Dil ko behlane ke liye Khayal acha hey Ghalib”

—Hamari Billi , Hamise Meowww! Wah Bachu, Hamise seekhi adha-e, hamhi par dorre dale…

“Do you really think Pakistan has no right to soverignity?”

—Refer to my former, first post on this blog & read it a thousand times…( Pakistan has never established itself as a Sovereign Nation….)

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

—Hamari Billi , Hamise Meowww! Wah Bachu, Hamise seekhi adha-e, hamhi par dorre dale…

“Do you really think Pakistan has no right to soverignity?”

—Refer to my former, first post on this blog & read it a thousand times…( Pakistan has never established itself as a Sovereign Nation….)

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

Umair

for-”Dil ko behlane ke liye…”

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

america will never fiddle with kashmir.Caue it’s a natural ally of india.moreover americans are educated people like indians not talibanis. good bless obama and usa

Posted by sumit | Report as abusive

You indians sorry idiots are good at barking like a mad dogs and just having a quick glance at these discusting, illogical, fabricated re-marks by so called civilised, educated and fair minded people.

You lot are the “SCUM OF THE EARTH”! Thats what you indians are as they say you are known by your company. India firends are Russians – the murderers of Afghans! friends of Israilis – Murderers of Palestinians and yur cowards army good at murdering UNARMED young men, rapeing women, kidnapping the leaders of Kashmir while showing the world peaceful elections are taking place.

You can write any garbage you like you are only exposing yourslef and your discusting mentality!!!

Now except for barking!! which yoy mad dogs are good at what else CAN YOU LOT DO? FCUK ALL…..

Pakistan is still there, living every moment which India can NOT bear to see. They can NOT see that a powerful Pakistan which is NOT willing to bow to cowrad indians and so what if there are problems so are they any other country!!!

Posted by Ali | Report as abusive

The Pak envoy to UK interviewd on Indian Channel!

Mr Hasan also criticised India’s delay in handing over evidence, suggesting its dossier could be “fabricated”.

“You [India] took 45 days to come up with a sort of evidence although you started blaming Pakistan on the first day”.

Posted by Hussain | Report as abusive

The indian occupation EXPOSED!!!

Hundreds of protesters have clashed with police in Srinagar, summer capital of Indian-administered Kashmir, police and officials say.

The demonstrators were rallying for the release of separatist leaders who have been detained in recent months.

They chanted slogans in support of —independence— for Kashmir and threw stones at security forces who fired tear gas shells to control the crowd.

The leaders were detained during elections held in December and January.

The authorities accused them of inciting people to boycott the seven-phased assembly elections in the disputed Himalayan region that took place between 17 November and 24 December.

But the protesters argued that the actions of those being held were peaceful and that they did nothing wrong.

The main separatist alliance in Indian-administered Kashmir, the All Parties Hurriyat (Freedom) Conference, called for a complete boycott of the elections.

Posted by KHALSA | Report as abusive

indian elections exposed by BBC…

In the run-up to polling day, Srinagar feels like an armed camp.

Outside active war zones (and Srinagar doesn’t fit that description any longer) the main city in Indian-administered Kashmir is one of the most heavily militarised places I’ve ever seen. Hardly a great advert for Indian democracy.

Every 50 metres or so, on every main street, stand several men (or very occasionally women) armed with assault rifles and – more often than not – big sticks. These, it seems, are the only conditions under which elections are possible.

There are undeclared curfews and a blanket of security across the city. Half a million army and police personnel keep watch over Kashmir, and Srinagar has more than its fair share.

Other parts of Jammu and Kashmir have seen higher voting figures than expected in this election season. But Srinagar is stubborn, and resentment against Indian rule runs deep.

On the election trail on the edge of town, Omar Abdullah, son of a famous Kashmiri family, addresses a small crowd as icy rain drifts down from the misty mountains. There’s razor wire in the haystacks.

Sitting on a makeshift stage on the back of a lorry, he tells me he’s hoping turnout in Srinagar will reach double figures. But he doesn’t look like he’d bet on it.

“We’d rather not campaign under such tight security,” he says, surrounded by yet more armed men. “The gun has changed nothing for us politically, but it has destroyed us economically, and it has had a huge impact on us socially.”

Posted by Ali | Report as abusive

Indian Muslims are holding a mass demonstration in the capital, Delhi, to protest against alleged harassment of Muslims by security forces.

Most of them arrived in Delhi on Thursday morning in a special train.

The train travelled from Azamgarh in northern Uttar Pradesh state and picked up more passengers en route to Delhi.

The organisers are also seeking a meeting with the interior minister. Indian police have been blamed by the community for torturing Muslims.

Security agencies, for example, have arrested 10 men from Azamgarh district in Uttar Pradesh in the past two years – all as suspects in different attacks.

One of the protest organisers, Maulana Amir Rashadi, said Muslim youths were being falsely targeted as terrorists.

The protesters arrived in Delhi carrying banners which said: “Let the truth prevail, bring the innocents out of jail” and “Give us security, not tears and blood”.

The BBC’s Joana Jolly in Delhi says more than 2,000 people gathered at the protest at Jantar Mantar, a popular forum for demonstrations.

‘Justice’

Amik Jamai, an activist and documentary film maker who joined the protest, said Muslims were feeling “uncomfortable”.

“The Muslims here are proud to be patriotic, they have promoted the concept of peace here, they live together in harmony,” he told the BBC.

“We are hoping for justice. We are hoping for transparency.”

In November, Human Rights Watch said police in the southern state of Andhra Pradesh should be prosecuted for torturing Muslims detained after bomb blasts last year.

The group warned of the risks of stigmatising and alienating “an entire community”.

The state government had admitted that 21 men had been tortured and would each receive $600 in compensation.

THSI IS MOTHER OF ALL DEMOCRACIES MT FOOT!!!!

Posted by India EXPOSED | Report as abusive

Mr Rathor said that those arrested had carried out a number of attacks in Lahore, the most deadly being a bomb they are said to have planted in a bin in 2006.

Two people died in that blast and 16 were injured.

He said that those being held had been to India seven times and had received training in bomb-making in Amritsar and Delhi.

“During interrogation they told us that the Indian border guards would let them into Indian territory through gate number 139. They would stay with these guards overnight and would be taken away by functionaries of the Research and Analysis Wing the next morning.”

He said that the trio had admitted taking pictures and video of various areas of Lahore.

He also said they had been trained to make and detonate remote-controlled devices.

INDIANS HAVE ALWAYS EXPORTED TERROR TO PAKISTAN! WHAT DO THEY EXPECT IN RETURN ROSES?!

Posted by India EXPOSED! | Report as abusive

PAKISTAN COMMITED TO ROOTING OUT TERROR!!!

Gen Kayani “reiterated that the army had both the will and resolve to establish the writ of the government” in Swat, a military statement said.

“No amount of sacrifice will deter us to do our duty,” Gen Kayani said, according to the statement.

The general also “lauded the morale” of soldiers in Swat, a mountainous region of North West Frontier Province (NWFP) which until two years ago was a popular tourist area.

Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari also pledged on Wednesday to curb militancy in the valley and stop the Taleban from establishing their own courts, a government spokesman said.

Gen Kayani’s comments coincided with an army statement which said that security forces killed seven militants and wounded 11 others in an operation in two villages there.

Posted by Proud to be a PAKI!!! | Report as abusive

Anup
On Pakistan soverignity.
I think Pakistan did assert itself as a soverign state in recent time during a number of occassions. The PM and president stated we are ready for war. The Army chief stated Pakistan can respond to any sort of Indian attack “within minutes”.
In the past Pakistan did establish itself a soverign state on 28 May 1998 when the world was shocked at 6 nuclear explosions conducted by Pakistan. Despite international pressure and calls not to respond to Indian nuclear tests, Pakistan was lured with economic and monetary incentives etc. But as a soverign state, at that time, in that situation, a befitting response to Indian nuclear tests was necessary. Hence the score was settled. Put to rest any doubts about Pakistan’s soverignity.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Afghan wrote:
” Umair i wont curse you because i dont stand in the same level as you do. you are a low class individual who doesnt have self respect and curse.”

b*stard f*cker, u r Pakistan hater, I will curse you a thousand times. Because I love Pakistan and you motherf*ker hate my country. S*ck my D*ck once more and f*ck off.

I dont have any self respect for Pakistan haters and I will treat them with utmost disrespect. If you want my respect, start showing some respect to my country. You curse my country, dont expect me not to talk back. I will curse you and I have a right to do so. Go back to your narco-state and do some thing good for it.

LONG LIVE PAKISTAN
DEATH TO NARCO-STATE AFGHANISTAN!!!!!

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Zardari said. ”Much as the Palestine issue remains the core obstacle to peace in the Middle East, the question of Kashmir must be addressed in some meaningful way to bring stability to the region,”

——-This puppet Zardari is so irresponsible and is inciting terrorism by saying so. Mr. Zardari: First you tell the world knows who actually rules Pakistan–we don;t care, but that is a pre-requisite for talking about any solutions. USA knows that Kayani is the ruler. No wonder, Rice went straight to meet with Kayani. what a bunch of jokers, liers and exploiters of Kashmiri people. Zardari, this mustache is not going to make you a man.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Global watcher:
“Umair is the best Pakistan has to offer.

The pinnacle of intelligence. Let the reasonable and intelligent voice of Pakistan speak!”

I had to reply to an individual branding Pakistan as terrorist state and stating “death to Pakistan.” I have all the right to express my anger towards them. This is called freedom of expression. I have had very good discussions with few other people (Anitha & Anup is an example) and couple of total jerks have resorted to abuses on Pakistan and I have talked back to them. Sometimes it is emotion which takes over reason. One has to be passionate about anything one does. I feel the same way about love of my country and expressing it passionately. Anyone is welcome to reason with me on the topic under discussion and I will engage with them. Once someone resort to abuses, the purpose of discussion is lost.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Umai LONG LIVE PAKISTAN
DEATH TO NARCO-STATE AFGHANISTAN!!!!!
- Posted by Umair

—-Umair: “Der aai darust aai”. finally you confessed that Pakistan is destroying Afghanistan for the survival of Pakistant. Is that not what “Afghan” and others have been bloggin about. So we are on same page on this “Pakistan’s survial depends upon destruction of Afghanistan”.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Is any Pakistani bloggers has the balls and Brain to discuss the issue of Kashmiri Pundits/demographics/Bogus Azad Kashmir issue other than the cut/paste rhetoric????

Also please tell us ignorant Indians what Pakistan has done for Kashmiris. I always thought Pakistani people are reasonable, it is just Pak govt problem. Hmmm…I think the problem is trickling from top to bottom.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Umair, Pakistan is undefendable for all its past actions. They are only fighting the war on terror in Pakistan because they have been forced by the Americans, otherise, by even their own admission, after 911, they said they would “bomb Pakistan back to the stone-age”.

Umair, what is there to love about Pakistan? Corruption, terrorism, extremism, filth, jihadi’s, bad economy, hate, rampant inflation, nothing to offer the world, incompetance, hateful ethnic states, the world deplores Pakistan and looks down on it.

You are so proud of your beggar and terrorism status. I just don’t get why you are happy being with your head up your a_s? Even Americans, the entire public have the common sense to admit the mistakes of their country and refute their government, remember the “Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq”.

You are not passionate, you are just stubborn and don’t like to admit you are wrong. This behavior of yours is common with Terrorists and Jihadi’s and Bin Laden.

Bin Laden has lead hundreds of thousands of muslims to their death in defence of some twisted religious and political ideal. Do you think Osama will ever admit he was wrong? No, I don’t think so, neither will you. In fact, you did not refute Bin Laden once. I want to see you put it in writing.

Quit bashing on Afghan. I like him, I have met Afghani people abroad and I like their pure heart. At least you know what you are getting and they don’t speak in a double faced tongue. My favorite people there are the Pashtun…what you see is what you get. I can respect that.

You are also proud of Pakistan’s genocide in Bangladesh..they killed 500,000 muslims and genocided 2.5million Hindus.

The Pak Military is very strong at killing unarmed civilians and raping old women and young girls and some of them even raped little boys. This is the Pakistani Army, given direct orders to do this to the population of the then East Pakistan.

India will rebuild Afghanistan and help its poor people rise up, they will once again be proud to call Afghanistan home, for it is a great and proud nation. Long Live Afghanistan!

Pakistan better quit rattling the sleeping Giant India. When India wakes up, Pakistani’s will be scrambling in fear, not knowing what to do. 160 Million is no match for 1.2 Billion.

All you are left with is swear words, uncontrollable emotions and damnation and negativity towards others. It is sad that you lack the brains and lack the maturity and intelligence to have a rational unbiased logical conversation. In other words, you act like any Madrassa educated extremist deoband terrorist.

You do not condemn the morally reprehensible Madrassa, Taliban, Extremism, Hate Education in Pak against India and Jihadi Terrorism, therefore you quietly sympathize with them. Put it in writing if you do condemn all of the above, then we have something to talk about.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

Global watcher wrote:
“India will rebuild Afghanistan and help its poor people rise up, they will once again be proud to call Afghanistan home,”

hmmm, India will do much better rebuilding the slums of Mumbai and taking care of dalit low caste hindus living in poverty and misery.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

@Umair
actually we have enough resources to do both ie taking care of our poor and rebuilding Afghanistan. After all we are not begging around for our funds and neither is our survival doubtful.

Posted by chirkut | Report as abusive

It is high time that India appoint an envoy to Pakistan-Afghanistan and monitor the activities of USA, China, Saudi and others in that area. Any foreign donor to Pakistan should certify that the aid is not going to be used to train terrorists or any other anti-India activities. India has been too soft and passive on this. Look how Israel controls it’s borders and neighbors. The terrorism that India is facing for last 30 years is the result of this uncontrolled, unmonitored foreign aid $$ pouring in to Pakistan. Foreigners donate money, weapons, use Pakistan as they want and leave. Ordinary Pakistanis, Kashmiris and Indians suffer. India should question these foreign donors and demand a compliance certificate that their aid is not used for anti-India activities.

Posted by An Indian-American | Report as abusive

…Well it SHOULD be on his agenda because the only way to solve Afghanistan is through resolution of Kashmir first…

When did Kashmir went towards Afghanistan Border? East met West? wow…

Posted by Blogger | Report as abusive

Umair,

You’re behavior was horrid. I’m more interested on how we carry ourselves in replies. I do care about what Afghan or any of the Indian posters may have said. Some of the comments do upset me, however you’re reply was horrible.

You’ve been rude and have lacked objectivity from what I’ve observed in my short time on Reuters. This is what you’ve said.

“Sometimes it is emotion which takes over reason. One has to be passionate about anything one does. I feel the same way about love of my country and expressing it passionately.”

No, you’re swear post was not patriotic. Sometimes these emotions can become permanent for the minds of the vicious. That is the case of ultra-nationalists in the history of the world. Passion without Reason is Fanaticism. These are the same examples of passions the world sees in regards to Pakistan and wonder where’s the reason.

I really hope you’re a teenager, who’s messing around, though that really shouldn’t be an excuse for criticizing many of you’re wrong beliefs.

Posted by Saf | Report as abusive

To add to the list of Global watcher:

The torture of Frontier Gandhi Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan (pashthun from NWFP). He was a devout Muslim and associate of Mahatma Gandhi; opened schools and brought women out of their homes to become a part of society. HE HAD 100,000 MUSLIMS LAY DOWN THEIR ARMS AND THE ARMY WAS CALLED “KHUDAI KHIMATGARS” (“SERVANTS OF GOD”).

His last words to Gandhi and his erstwhile allies in the Congress party were: “You have thrown us to the wolves.”(i.e.Pakistan). Well Pakistan proved him right by killing thousand of “Khudai Khimatgars” and also imprisoned Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan after partition for 2 decades and tortured. This is what he said after coming out of pak prison “I had to go to prison many a time in the days of the Britishers. Although we were at loggerheads with them, yet their treatment was to some extent tolerant and polite. But the treatment which was meted out to me in this Islamic state of ours was such that I would not even like to mention it to you.”

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Rajeev,
..The balls and Brain..
The Balls with Taliban support and the Brain with China and IMF Support.

First let them come out of IMF clutches the we will see the balls aside and the brain under drain.

Posted by Blogger | Report as abusive

Saf,
Sometimes these emotions can become permanent for the minds of the vicious.

eg: Terrorists and the Human Bomb Factories…

Posted by Blogger | Report as abusive

Chirkut
Its about time your doubts about Pakistan’s survival should be over. For us its a matter to thrive, we certainly have survived the 65-71 wars and soviet occupation war in Afghanistan during 80s, the era of nuclear parity with India is now a reality. Yes, I admit we need to build a strong economy to ensure our country remains strong. Its only a few barking dogs that cant see Pakistan thrive and question its survival.

Saf
You are right, i should not have resorted to swearing and abuses, but it was Afghan who has provoked me. This guy Afghan does not post his real name, who the hell is he to swear Pakistan and say “Death to Pakistan”. Well long live Pakistan shall indeed and such remarks will be replied. As well as any actions to harm Pakistan take place, they will be responded with equal force.

OPEN CHALLENGE TO AFGHAN: COME OUT IN OPEN KID AND POST YOUR REAL NAME IF YOU HAVE COURAGE. DONT HIDE LIKE A COWARD IF YOU ARE TRUE WHATEVER YOU STATE WHY HIDE YOUR NAME?

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Rajeev,

Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan, was indeed a good mention. It brought a smile to my face.

Though he was initially anti-Pakistan, he wasn’t the trouble maker that the oppressive leadership had made everyone believe. He was very pro-Pashtun not a separatist and those rare good qualities of good leaders.

His grandson is currently running the Awami National Party in Pakistan.

I really appreciate the knowledge you had of him Rajeev. Most people unfortunately do not.

Posted by Saf | Report as abusive

Blogger wrote:
“Sometimes these emotions can become permanent for the minds of the vicious.

eg: Terrorists and the Human Bomb Factories…”

Let me clarify you, terrorists will be the last people who have any emotions. Terrorists are cold blooded killers. It is the emotional people that are led to do the most constructive things for their nation or for humanity.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Rajeev

While I stated “death to Afghanistan NARCO_STATE” not Afghanistan as a whole. Let me tell you Afghanistan is a landlocked country and we have always provided them transit trade facility. Pakistan provided shelter to millions of Afghan refugees in 80s during soviet war, prostitution, drugs and AK-47s is all we got as a result of soviet occupation of Afghanistan.
Pakistan and its people have nothing against Afghanistan. Pakistani concerns that India is using Afghanistan as a base for anti-Pakistan activities and destablization of Baluchistan and North west Pakistan. I hope this is wrong. I have stated many times before that Pakistan-India-Afghanistan stability is interlinked. Unless our three countries come together the mistrust will never go and there will be no progress. We will keep fighting proxy wars and our generations to come will not have a bright future. Why do you think that the military establishment in Pakistan has not turned its full strength against millitant elements in north-west? because they still think India as enemy no. 1. India might want to take an initiative to jump start the peace process and make meaningful progress. We need more solutions and less problems. Hurling abuses and accusations at each other is not helping anyone on this blog. Did the war of words between the governments of India and Pakistan after Mumbai attacks help anyone? Did India succeed to isolate Pakistan diplomatically?

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Umair,

I’m glad you agreed with me.

However its not reasonable to call Afghan to a Capital worded Post fight. It is the right of every user here to choose whether to display their name or username. It is a privacy issue.

You are still upset and want another go at him. Calm down and cool off. Try to avoid each other.

There are positive emotions and negative emotions. Emotions that lead to constructive behavior and emotions that lead to destructive behavior. We agree terrorists use aggression. Aggression comes from aggressive behavior triggered from emotional anger. Destructive behavior is also evident in Mob behavior when there’s a Strike or a large protest that goes unruly. Many times those protesters who are caught and asked why they broke windows or did such and such act of vandalism, they reply they were just emotional,passionate or moved by the moment. The difference between them and a peaceful protest is that both are passionate however one has kept reason the other has not.

I’m glad you’re recent posts are much calmer and reasoned. Please keep that up, and don’t get bugged by aggressive criticism or responses. Thanks.

Posted by Saf | Report as abusive

Thank you Saf
I wish we have people like you in majority in Pakistan.
If Pakistan stops using terrorism to further its policies and stick to Gandhian principles of non-violent protest, things will cool down in both neighbors of Pakistan. And believe me people will lend a far better ear to Pakistan. Till then things will go the way they are going now.

Posted by chirkut | Report as abusive

@Umair

Afghan is just jealous because he knows how poor & backward his society is.Even BEFORE the war,in the late 70s,Afghanistan had a literacy rate of 6%…the vast majority of their population were a bunch of filthy,illiterate mongrels who continuously scratch their heads like monkeys.
They are also prone to abusing Pakistan because of how looked down upon they are in Pakistani society…usually they are garbage pickers & beggars on our streets.

Posted by Qasim | Report as abusive

To all Indians concerned,

I wish you all well because you lot have a wonderful country which is doing very well for itself. As a Pakistani,its in our enlightened interest to have good relations with our southern neighbour. So even though we have issues to resolve,lets resolve them amicably & not get bogged down in costly confrontations.

Posted by Qasim | Report as abusive

Is Ms Lodhi a diplomat or extortionist? This list looks like a list from Somali pirates. :) Why everybody in Pakistan is like this. Looks like they are standing on a cliff and putting conditions rescuers for help.

Posted by Amy | Report as abusive

@chirkut

Thank you for offering your opinion on Pakistan…we have it in our interest to have good relations with your country & also eradicate T-ism and E-ism in our society. So lets ignore the role of RAW/ISI in regional tensions & focus on the positives.
The positives include such things as the election of secular political parties to power in all four Pakistani provinces, who do not believe in mixing Islam with politics.Pakistanis had given the military the boot in that election, & have now elected a government which desires peace in the region.

Posted by Qasim | Report as abusive

Here is an article I have copied & pasted:

Mohammed Hanif, the brilliant author of the engrossing book “The Case of Exploding Mangoes” (I have been planning to write about it ever since I first read it many months ago; and I will) – known to many for his stint at Herald before he joined BBC’s Urdu Service – has just written a most cogent and readable op-ed in The Times of India which is wroth reading; whether you agree with it or not. It is a good argument as well as a good read. And I say that even thought there are more than one points here that I might quibble with. But before we quibble, lets give Mohammed Hanif the floor – and a full and proper hearing. Here is the op-ed he wrote in The Times of India, in full:

Ten Myths About Pakistan

By Mohammed Hanif

Living in Pakistan and reading about it in the Indian press can sometimes be quite a disorienting experience: one wonders what place on earth they’re talking about? I wouldn’t be surprised if an Indian reader going through Pakistani papers has asked the same question in recent days. Here are some common assumptions about Pakistan and its citizens that I have come across in the Indian media.

1. Pakistan controls the jihadis: Or Pakistan’s government controls the jihadis. Or Pakistan Army controls the jihadis. Or ISI controls the jihadis. Or some rogue elements from the ISI control the Jihadis. Nobody knows the whole truth but increasingly it’s the tail that wags the dog. We must remember that the ISI-Jihadi alliance was a marriage of convenience, which has broken down irrevocably. Pakistan army has lost more soldiers at the hands of these jihadis than it ever did fighting India.

2. Musharraf was in control, Zardari is not: Let’s not forget that General Musharraf seized power after he was fired from his job as the army chief by an elected prime minister. Musharraf first appeased jihadis, then bombed them, and then appeased them again. The country he left behind has become a very dangerous place, above all for its own citizens. There is a latent hankering in sections of the Indian middle class for a strongman. Give Manmohan Singh a military uniform, put all the armed forces under his direct command, make his word the law of the land, and he too will go around thumping his chest saying that it’s his destiny to save India from Indians. Zardari will never have the kind of control that Musharraf had. But Pakistanis do not want another Musharraf.

3. Pakistan, which Pakistan? For a small country, Pakistan is very diverse, not only ethnically but politically as well. General Musharraf’s government bombed Pashtuns in the north for being Islamists and close to the Taliban and at the same time it bombed Balochs in the South for NOT being Islamists and for subscribing to some kind of retro-socialist, anti Taliban ethos. You have probably heard the joke about other countries having armies but Pakistan’s army having a country. Nobody in Pakistan finds it funny.

4. Pakistan and its loose nukes: Pakistan’s nuclear programme is under a sophisticated command and control system, no more under threat than India or Israel’s nuclear assets are threatened by Hindu or Jewish extremists. For a long time Pakistan’s security establishment’s other strategic asset was jihadi organisations, which in the last couple of years have become its biggest liability.

5. Pakistan is a failed state: If it is, then Pakistanis have not noticed. Or they have lived in it for such a long time that they have become used to its dysfunctional aspects. Trains are late but they turn up, there are more VJs, DJs, theatre festivals, melas, and fashion models than a failed state can accommodate. To borrow a phrase from President Zardari, there are lots of non-state actors like Abdul Sattar Edhi who provide emergency health services, orphanages and shelters for sick animals.

6. It is a deeply religious country: Every half-decent election in this country has proved otherwise. Religious parties have never won more than a fraction of popular vote. Last year Pakistan witnessed the largest civil rights movements in the history of this region. It was spontaneous, secular and entirely peaceful. But since people weren’t raising anti-India or anti-America slogans, nobody outside Pakistan took much notice.

7. All Pakistanis hate India: Three out of four provinces in Pakistan – Sindh, Baluchistan, NWFP – have never had any popular anti-India sentiment ever. Punjabis who did impose India as enemy-in-chief on Pakistan are now more interested in selling potatoes to India than destroying it. There is a new breed of al-Qaida inspired jihadis who hate a woman walking on the streets of Karachi as much as they hate a woman driving a car on the streets of Delhi. In fact there is not much that they do not hate: they hate America, Denmark, China CDs, barbers, DVDs , television, even football. Imran Khan recently said that these jihadis will never attack a cricket match but nobody takes him seriously.

8. Training camps: There are militant sanctuaries in the tribal areas of Pakistan but definitely not in Muzaffarabad or Muridke, two favourite targets for Indian journalists, probably because those are the cities they have ever been allowed to visit. After all how much training do you need if you are going to shoot at random civilians or blow yourself up in a crowded bazaar? So if anyone thinks a few missiles targeted at Muzaffarabad will teach anyone a lesson, they should switch off their TV and try to locate it on the map.

9. RAW would never do what ISI does: Both the agencies have had a brilliant record of creating mayhem in the neighbouring countries. Both have a dismal record when it comes to protecting their own people. There is a simple reason that ISI is a bigger, more notorious brand name: It was CIA’s franchise during the jihad against the Soviets. And now it’s busy doing jihad against those very jihadis.

10. Pakistan is poor, India is rich: Pakistanis visiting India till the mid-eighties came back very smug. They told us about India’s slums, and that there was nothing to buy except handicrafts and saris. Then Pakistanis could say with justifiable pride that nobody slept hungry in their country. But now, not only do people sleep hungry in both the countries, they also commit suicide because they see nothing but a lifetime of hunger ahead. A debt-ridden farmer contemplating suicide in Maharashtra and a mother who abandons her children in Karachi because she can’t feed them: this is what we have achieved in our mutual desire to teach each other a lesson.

So, quibble if you will. But do tell us what you think about the argument that Hanif is making.

Posted by Qasim | Report as abusive

@ Qasim
Here is my responce of Mr Hanif’s 10 points

1. It doesn’t matter! The truth is at the end of day india is getting burnt by terrorism. If dog can’t control the tail then allow us to tie the tail for the dog.

2. In india, Army cannot swap barracks for President house. India very ferouciously guard her democracy. Indira gandh’s Emergency era is a testament.
Pakistanis have to do the same. They need to cut down their Army to size to make democractic leadership strong and then make them accountable.

3. Every country is diverse with different ideologies. Pakis need to respect the differences and gaurd against hatred mongers. They alone can help themselves

4. In India dog firmly control its tail. Which as per your addmittance is not with Pakistan. That increases the probablity

5. VJ DJ and festival has nothing to do with failed state. A state is failed when its writ is not applicable in its own land. As per your own admission the tail is wagging the dog

6. There is nothing bad in being religious. But at the same time we have to learn to respect other religions. By that yardstick India is also not completely perfect. But then Pakistan has a lot more ground to cover.
Election outcomes depend not only on religion but also on a lot of other factors. Religious parties might not have won this time but they can win in the future. Elections are not a strong indicators.You need to tame the mullahs and hate mongers.

7. India is not dealing with Sindh, Baluchistan or NWFP but Pakistan. Pakistan is ruled by punjabis. So even if Sindh, Baluchistan, NWFP – have never had any popular anti-India sentiment ever has not affected the outcome.

8. Pakistan has never accepted Kashmiri terrorist as terrorists. Its still in denail mode. India has suffcient evidence of terrorist camps in Muridke and Muzaffarabad.Where was JuD based out of? Recent bomb blasts in India by terrorist cannot happen without training. Certainly not 26/11. Missile attacks are not to teach anyone a lesson. They are for destroying infrastrucutre of terror.

9. Even if i agree on RAW’s activity in Pakistan, the truth is that RAW is still in tight control of Indian Govt. ISI is virtually goverment unto itself and always protected its power by raising the India bogeyman. For a stable pakistan both ISI and Army has be reigned in control by the govt.

10. True that both India and PAkistan are poor but at the same time Indian economy is still rapidly growing. Indians are pulling out more people out of povery each year. While Pakistan’s economy is in shambles and because of that possibly more Pakistanis are made poor each year. Believe me when I say that till 26/11 more Indians were more occupied with chandrayan(Indian Moon mission) than pakistan. 26/11 came as a rude reminder to us that no matter how much we progress untill we eradicate terrorism we cannot live in peace. All our progress will be in vain.

Posted by chirkut | Report as abusive

@Qasim
Again my response to those 10 points is not to hit back on you.
I sincerely hope that Pakistan mend her ways and become a more inclusive and peaceful democracy.

Posted by chirkut | Report as abusive

On saif’s “Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan, was indeed a good mention. It brought a smile to my face…..”
——Thanks. I remembered of KAG Khan the day Taliban announced “no education to women” and other anti-women policies because Khan did just the opposite. I appreciate your help in cooling down the bloggers.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

No matter which couuntry in History, when it was invaded and occupied, the native population always resisted. This is the case in Afghanistan.
This “war on terror” is a war of terror carried out by one of the most nasty ideologies in mankinds history. They have a unhealthy hate for islam no matter what form. These so called crusaders, no other word comes to mouth, have mass murdered over a million men women and children in iraq, mass murdered 10′s of thousands in Afghanistan, and still they bark like rabid dogs “terrorist” terrorist”. Muslims need to start respecting themselves and speak up when a single man woman or child is killed by these badits and thugs, but no they let them carry on, 15 killed there, 20 there, whole village wiped out.
You may be poor but do not live like Dogs beneath the feet of these disgusting evil thungs, whose only God is greed , money and power.
If the Pakistani public was to have a say in this.
They would tell USA/UK and all the other crminals to Go to hell, we will not kill anymore innocent people for your money or bullying, you will not kill any more innocent people. Stand up to them, they have always been cowards throughout history, never fighting for a cause unless it was a financial benefit, they are the same cowards who in history passed tried to do the same thing,but got defeated. They will be defeated again, because they are NOT the GOOD GUYS, and never will be

Posted by Rabbani | Report as abusive

Maleeha Lodhi is following the same path taken by her mentor Musharraf , when asked for his support for war against terror, he gave his wish list, which included military and financial aid , more than a sum of USD 10b has been given as aid to Pakistan, it is being debated in every forum in US establishment about how the aid was used to buy arms and ammunition to fight India . It is even an admitted position of US govt about the utilization of this aid. While talking about Kashmir, she has forgotten that kashmir issue has been for one and all settled between India and Pakistan in Shimla Agreement in July,1972 following humiliating defeat of Pakistan in war against India in 1971, Kashmir is no longer relevant . Perhaps Ms Lodhi has forgotten , Pakistan has imposed 3 wars on India and in all these 3 wars , Pakistan had to suffer humiliating defeat , it is historically proven fact that India has neither launched direct or indirect wars or ever posed any threat to Pakistan, how long the Pakistan politicians will mislead about an imaginative threat from India ?
Mr Hanif is a respected journalist , while writing his article in Times of India, he forgot during the last 10 years , India has achieved impressive growth of 10 % , we are building our own satelite, CHANDRAYAAN is a living proof of India’s technical and economic success . Mr Hanif has very conveniently omitted to mention that Govt of India is making every attempt to stop the suicide by the farmers , which is indeed a national shame.
Mr Hanif’s mention about RAW and its indulgence in saboteur activities in Pakistan makes a very interesting observation, for us in India, such observations by people like Mr Hanif makes us proud of our security agencies, but post 26/11 , this bluff has been exposed, RAW or any other Indian security agencies have failed to provide security or necessary intelligence inputs in India, it is absolutely ridiculous to suggest RAW’s involvement in Pakistan or elsewhere . RAw can’t protect Indians , let alone carry out espionage activities against Paksitan .
Mr Hanif’s suggestion about ISI and its involvement with jehadis , Talibans or Al-Queda , this is not the creation of Indian media but the truth is before the whole world , in fact, US intel agencies from time to time have been divulging that ISI and Pakistan Army is actively involved in not only providing training to these jehadi and fedayeen but also provide all the material and logistical support .
To put the record state, the whole world knows the truth that Pakistan is not only terrorist hub but it is a breeding ground of terrorists . The priority before Richard Holbrooks should be to ask Pakistan in no uncertain terms :
a) First tame ISI and Pak Army ,stop them from providing terrorist training, destroy all the terrorist infrastructure
b) Get complete account for US aid , whether it has been used to buy arms and ammunition to fight India
c) Ensure ISI and Pak Army to to stop all kind terrorist activities against India
d) Tie all US aid and IMF loan with conditions such as the money can not be used for military purposes, only can be used for development purposes
e) To find out ways and means to take control of all the nuclear arsenals to prevent it from falling in wrong hands

Mr Hanif, if you are reading this, my humble suggestion is that the state of Pakistan or its tag as a failed state or a rogue state or merchant of death , is not the creation of Indian media , but the whole world adresses Pakistan with all these superlatives . Please donot blame India or Indian media for the ills in Pakistan . While writing about Indian muslim and its treatment in India or Kashmir, please take notice that India is home for the second largest muslim population in the world , they constitute about 20% of India’s population , they are capable of taking care of themselves, they have not authorized Pakistan or anybody to advocate or champion their causes .

Mr Hanif , poverty , illiteracy , are the biggest enemy of both India and Paksitan, you would definitely do a great service to the entire humanity and muslim world in particular, if you write about the ways and means to alleviate them , instead of writing about Indo-Pask differences or Kashmir issues .

Ms Lodhi , you and your mentor Musharraf would also have done humanity a favour, if you had said in your wish list about economic development, alleviation of poverty, women right etc.

Posted by Manish | Report as abusive

Thank you Chirkut and Rajeev for the kind words.

“They are also prone to abusing Pakistan because of how looked down upon they are in Pakistani society…usually they are garbage pickers & beggars on our streets.”
- Posted by Qasim

Qasim, you missed to analyze a sentence. ‘Looking down’ upon them in Pakistani society. Why do we do that? “They are garbage pickers and beggars on our streets”. Why? Is this not the sign of mistreatment? A sign of haplessness of refugees in our country.

I don’t know how old you are, but if u remember the Bosnian war, some Bosnians were taken in as refugees in Pakistan in the 90′s. To our embarrassment, some months living in Pak (Karachi, I believe), they demanded to be sent back to Bosnia even though it was a war zone, as they couldn’t live by in Pakistan. What are the chances those refugees had cursed us and their lack of opportunities? Should we just call them jealous and wave off the criticism or actually be concerned for the welfare of all those living in Pakistan and do something about it?

This stereotype of Afghanis begging in Pakistan is also untrue. In fact we had our local urban citizens complain that many Afghanis had done extremely well in local businesses cornering the markets and jobs. This led to resentment from our own people as there were no systems to naturalize Afghani refugees and there was no monitor on taxes, business licenses, jobs, etc. Though these problems cannot be blamed on Afghanis who are simply trying to make the best living and rather the State’s fault in recognizing the ground realities.

Currently there’s another refugee crisis of internal displacement. Islamabad is now the hottest refugee destination for people coming from Swat, Bajaur and Mohamadan Regencies, etc. How many of these people from the autonomous regions are probably cursing us or our govt for their lack of opportunities?

We can’t brush things off as ‘jealousy’. Is that not the same excuse the Americans use to try to grasp what happened on 9/11 and fail to re-examine their roles in the world (who are now realizing)?

We must realize our biases externally and internally to improve ourselves and re-ignite friendships if we want to move forward. Hope this helps. Thanks.

Posted by Saf | Report as abusive

Umair,
Thanks for the response and your willingness to discuss the issues.

You said: “While I stated “death to Afghanistan NARCO_STATE” not Afghanistan as a whole”
—-I understand that you might not be meaning that. But the statement still targets Afghanistan-the country- and no self-respecting citizen likes that, neither you nor I.

On Pak India roles in helping Afghanistan and India’s role in destabilizing of Baluchistan and North west Pakistan:
—– India’s interests in Afghanistan is heavy reconstruction/development programme for the stability of Afghanistan using a non-military strategy (same as you said). The Indian force there is ITBP. The ultimate goal of USA/NATO Pak war on terror Afghanistan/Pakis is not only military affensive but requires stabilization of war–torn Afghanistan. No one did that. Not USA, not USSR, Pak is also not doing and Taliban in power was least interested other than ruling and punishing people. Understandably, if pak sees India as #1 enemy, this would be concern to Pak. If Pak does not feel so, India’s role in Afghanistan will do a lot for Pakistan-India-Afghanistan stability. If India were to destabilize Pak, India does not have to get into all this drama of re-building Afghanistan. No one sees that Afghanistan needs to built, not just bombed. Cold War and subsequent events led to destabilization of the region. I understand positive Pak role as you mentioned, some of it is Pak control and some not. Not to discredit but to put in proper persepctive, it is a refugee problem—like the way it happens in India/Bangladesh case. India cannot completely stop it but still fact of the matter is India is helping B.Desh refugees many ways. It will be unreasonable to say that Pak (ISI) did not play negative role in destabilization of the region—continuous support of Taliban (until today perhaps, hope not). The roles of CIA and ISI in that are established beyond doubt now (Taliban). I also hope that India is not doing any activities such as destablization of Baluchistan and North west Pakistan. To me, Pak fear arises more out of insecurity and perhaps in the wrong belief that stable Afghanistan will start voicing its demands that might destabilize pak. In the end countries do play little games specially those which the enemy (Pak, China for India) see as credible threat, not necessarily directly hurting. I see no problem in that if all the approaches are along the defensive (not destabilize or any other offensive) lines, and India is doing that only. Pak and China doing that too.
I absolutely agree with you that serious diplomatic efforts are necessary. I do think that India-Pak relations will not improve unless there are serious positive bilateral talks. But the problem with India right now (like many in the world) is its confusion about who rules Pak. It is not easy to diplomatically isolate a country like Pakistan, considering its geo-political value to the powers. But the sad question is why there is a need to do that and the answer lies in 61 yrs of experience. Mumbai case is just one dot on the graph.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Qasim:
I do not have enough time to type but Manish has nicely covered many points.

I will just say that the Mr. Hanif’s article was somewhat useful, but mostly quite superficial. Several feelings about Pak are shared by media outside India too. I am also wondering is he more eligible to talk about the safety of nuclear weapons than the members of the commission who have prepared a report on WMDs with a special section “Pakistan: The Intersection of Nuclear Weapons and Terrorism” Click below:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/librar y/report/2008/wmd-prolif-terror-commissi on2-02.htm

Finding poverty (and other negatives) in India as source of Pakistan’s satisfaction is setting a low bar to begin with and his emphasis on this is not motivating Pakistanis.

Above all when such defensive articles “Myths and….” start appearing it kind of shows the situation is serious.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Indians here are well-mannered compared to the Pakistanis. Let us not forget this is a reuters blog,some day they may publish our shameful blog war-they may mention the language we use- in some European Newspapers I request Umair and Ali to take a leaf out of Saf’s and Quasim’s book and not to bring shame to our nation. Let us not abuse members or use sexually embarrassing comments.

Jugnu Mohsin ,the Pakistani activist who had been on a Peace mission had just returned from India. She spoke exclusively to the Daily Times Monitor.

Jungu Mohsin said she had confirmed that Ajmal Kasab – the only surviving Mumbai gunman – belonged to Fareed Kot. “We should not have hidden these facts,” she said, because that would create doubts in India. “This was not the way to deal these issues,” she said.

Sensible statement at sensitive times. We Pakistanis and Indians have our own faults. But instead of bickering with each other,let us face the harsh reality-We are poor and let us not pour fuel on fundamentalist flames.

Posted by pk | Report as abusive

“Assistance under the Biden-Luger bill should be offered with no strings attached”

AMAZING!!!! Why so?

Begging with an attitude.

On the contrary. Donors would shell out money and meanwhile Pakistan army and ISI will continue terrorism all around, no one should ask about it!!

What evidence do we in Pakistan have that the Ajmal Kassab in our records is the same Ajmal Kassab in Indian custody? Is it right for us to be skeptical? Sure it is our right. Is it possible that Kassab could be a Pakistani who has been used for the Mumbai attack? Sure it is possible. If a respectable figure like Colin Powell could go to UNSC in Feb 2003 and show fake pictures of Iraqi WMD ‘vans’ and sites and mobile labs in order to justify attacking Iraq, anything is possible. This is why Jugnu Mohsin’s argument is hogwash. She’s free to sympathize with the Indian government all she wants. That’s not how the business of international relations is conducted. If the Americans can ditch Pakistan after defeating the Soviets, it is Pakistan’s right to exact as much price as possible for cleaning up the mess that others left behind. Meanwhile, India must not be allowed to exploit Afghan soil to send saboteurs to Pakistan, in a repeat of what New Delhi did back in the 1970s with the help of the Soviets.

Ahmed,

There’s overwhelming evidence that Kasab is Pakistani. Our own media and our own agencies had come to that conclusion. And if this wasn’t the case, then why on earth did our government finally admit it? Are they lying too as well on the identity? Lying again? What is the truth?

This isn’t like the Iraq war, where there were many skeptics and purposely faulty intelligence. There is a living captive. There is the scene of the crime. There is a village from where he hails from. And MOST important of all were the strong media investigations. All investigated including the confusion of his NADRA identity which at the end was hogwash. There’s also information by the media (including ours) on the other men, however, they have not been brought out as proof.

“If the Americans can ditch Pakistan after defeating the Soviets, it is Pakistan’s right to exact as much price as possible for cleaning up the mess that others left behind. Meanwhile, India must not be allowed to exploit Afghan soil to send saboteurs to Pakistan, in a repeat of what New Delhi did back in the 1970s with the help of the Soviets.”

The Americans shouldn’t have ditched us or the world, nor is it our right to exact the same. We tried not to allow India to exploit Afghanistan by backing the Taliban of which the blowback we are suffering horribly now. This is clearly an issue of trust we have to work on. We ended up making bad paranoid choices. The same as the CIA had done the world over. Because of our ‘mistrust’ and fear of the ‘constant enemy’ ending up as our own worst enemy instead. This attitude,policy and spy games must change.

Posted by Saf | Report as abusive

Qasim
1. Pakistan controls the jihadis: True
2. 2. Musharraf was in control, Zardari is not: True
3. 3. Pakistan, which Pakistan? Nobody in Pakistan finds it funny. True. The sick part is that they do not find it disgusting….
4. Pakistan and its loose nukes: True
5. Pakistan is a failed state: True
6.But since people weren’t raising anti-India or anti-America slogans, nobody outside Pakistan took much notice. Voicing support could have been exploited by labeling pro-democracy forces as traitors…
7. All Pakistanis hate India: False
8. Training camps: True
After all how much training do you need if you are going to shoot at random civilians or blow yourself up in a crowded bazaar? – Extensive & expensive, follow the petrodollars where are they spent…
9. RAW would never do what ISI does: True, reason being incompetence…
And now it’s busy doing jihad against those very jihadis. – lol, you really think the world digests this flimsy claim…
10. Pakistan is poor, India is rich: this is what we have achieved in our mutual desire to teach each other a lesson. False. India is not Pakistan-centric…

what you think about the argument that Hanif is making. – A feeble attempt to justify barbarism…

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

@saf

The Pakistani people are known to be kindhearted & generous to outsiders,& we have been known to be warm & welcoming to foreigners…the Afghans should be treated as no different.However,when you have an Afghan (as we do on this forum) who is ungrateful for the kindhearted & generous way in which Pakistan treated his country in the past, then it shows how ungrateful he is being

Posted by Qasim | Report as abusive

@Ahmed Qureishi

Are you are the same Ahmed Qureishi who comes on television? I have seen you on Geo and Al-Jazeera!

Look man,we gotta find a way to communicate our message to the outside world…we have to form lobbying groups in the Gulf,UK,USA & Canada…places where the Pakistani diaspora is strong. We have to communicate our message because secular Pakistanis are having their voice drowned out. How can we do this? What has been done so far & how can we improve on that?

Posted by Qasim | Report as abusive

@rajeev

Look,I have read the article & its designed to spread fear into the hearts of the American establishment & the broader American population.It must be remembered that public opinion is the Achilles heel of Western democracy,& for public opinion to back imperialist wars the naive & simplistic hill billy from the countryside has to be behind it. These are the same media/think tanks that said there were WMDs in Iraq…how can you say these are credible sources? How can you say these are intelligent people? Its whipping up war hysteria for no reason,for the likelihood of Pakistani nukes falling into T-ist hands is quite low.

Posted by Qasim | Report as abusive

@anup

Look man,if you really think Pakistan controls the T-ists,do you think they would have killed Benazir Bhutto?Do you think they would have had 2-3 assassination attemps to Pervez Musharraf?How many innocent Pakistanis have died at their hands? Instead of saying “INDIA IS THE VICTIM,PAKISTAN IS BAD” you should say “WE ARE BOTH VICTIMS,WE SHOULD WORK TOGETHER”

Further peace talks are the only way forward…

Posted by Qasim | Report as abusive

@chirkut

Thanks for your answer to the article I posted. Your replies are your opinion & you have a right to them…I also hope Pakistan can build a succesful democracy,at peace with India & at peace with itself.More than anything,Pakistanis want economic growth,peace & prosperity because our country has proven how it can be an economic powerhouse in the right times. At this moment,we have:

(a) Internal enemies(such as Tlbn/AQ)
(b) External enemies(such as RAW,CIA,Afghan intelligence)

As Pakistanis,we WANT to get rid of T-ism because it will benefit our economic growth.But in doing so,India should lend us a helping hand by stopping its clandestine operations and sponsorship of the Baloch Liberation Army. India should also prove it wants peace & when it does so,the Pakistani government & army will have an easier time dismantling the T-ist infrastructure

Posted by Qasim | Report as abusive

@Umair,

You still have not refuted Osama Bin Laden, Islamic Extremism, Terrorism and violence, the Deoband Wahhabi hate fueled Madrassas the terrorist infrastructure and the notorious grandmaster terrorist, Ret. Lt. Gen. Hamid Gul.

Please refute and say that you believe these above stated evils of Pakistan should be eliminated permanently.

In your own writing denounce them. If you do not, you are with them and quietly sympathize with them.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

When I was young I was a fool. In my classroom they taught me hate.
When I grew up,I decided to broaden my mind. When I told foreigners about my Nation’s superiority compared to India,people began to laugh,there was sarcasm in their reply,I had known that.
Let us we Pakistanis understand something-We use terrorism as a tool to achieve our aims.
A)Mumbai terror attacks must have come from our soil. We all know that,yet when someone points that to us,we try to counter attack by pointing out their incompetency.
B)Do we know,why Afghans-literate Afghans-hate us the most? Its like this,they had a nail on their toe and they came to us for help.Immediately we introduced them to a crocodile-Taliban-to cut off their leg. Then we claimed we helped them.
To all Indians,
Yes our land might have been used to attack your people and our Government had closed its eyes on that. But today we are democratic and we will slowly root out the terrorism. Just like you people find it very hard to prosecute the attackers of the Babur Masjid,we are also finding it too hard to prosecute our enemies. We can eliminate terrorists only with your friendship. Your antagonism towards us will only strengthen our Islamic fundamentalists’ hated propaganda to our illiterate people against you.

Posted by pk | Report as abusive

Qasim:

Let us be patriotic but not over-defensive or brush aside the real dangers.

1. About WMD report
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/librar y/report/2008/wmd-prolif-terror-commissi on2-02.htm
the committee members say that “The intent of this report is neither to frighten nor to reassure the American people about the current state of terrorism and weapons of mass destruction.”
—- The purpose of this report was about WMDs in general (both Nuclear- and Bio-terrorism) not targeted towards any single nation. Perhaps you think since it US report, US is using for its advantage. @Iraq war was different. Many countries and many politicians inside US, including Powell, as you mentioned, and Obama were against Iraq/ WMD evidence. But here the situation is worse than you and I can imagine.
2. On: “for public opinion to back imperialist wars the naive & simplistic hill billy from the countryside has to be behind it.”
—-One can be hilly billy by not acknowledging the facts.
3. Believing the story that men broke into high security facility that stores nuclear stuff in South Africa (denuclearized state now), why cannot it happen anywhere else. How about the Russian guy in the train who worked in soviet nuclear facility and was looking for a buyer of plutonium in a bag he had.
4. On ““Its whipping up war hysteria for no reason,for the likelihood of Pakistani nukes falling into T-ist hands is quite low.”
——–Osama bin Laden is a big fan of Nukes. The link of a a Pak scientist (forgot the name but not AQ Khan)with Al-Qaida are known. OBL says it is religious duty of Muslim nations to have such weapons. In an interview he says in fact he has one. Click OBL interview http://www.dawn.com/2001/11/10/top1.htm) .
Even if he is lying his intentions are clear and make sense since terrorists must be bored with killing 200-2000 innocents per hit.
5. Pak is the only Muslim country which has Nukes and OBL must be drooling over it.
6. On top of it Pakistan scientists did not give nice reputation to the country by the way nuclear technology was acquired–stealing technology from Netherlands (fact); AQ Khan getting lectures from China (OK but Pak technology is not indigenous). Add to it the facts that both Pak and China distributed nuclear material weapons to N. Korea and Libya, Saudi Arabia, Algeria.
7. Afghanistan/Pakistan is the place many terrorist gps were created and nurtured and the place-to-be for them.
8. Declared Terrorist agenda of establishing Islamic rule over India.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Qasim,

In continuatiom of my last message.

From all this to me it is logical to say that Pak nukes are the most vulnerable than anywhere else. I am not pointing fingers here-just analyzing. If India is the same boat, I’ll still do the same.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Qasim

Do you really believe that The Pakistani Army & ISI are not ‘hand-in-gloves’ with T-ist’s?
Do you really believe that Benazir’s assassination is simply an act of terror & not a Political ploy?
Attacks on Musharaf were part & parcel of this deadly game.
The questions to be asked is –Why innocent Pakistani’s are killed by them, are there any ideological justifications that they can give or are they given a freehand to quench their blood-thirst? Or to keep the democratic administration within their confines? Or is it simply that some elements are getting more adventurous or are demanding their pound of flesh, if discriminated by the ISI Masters? & the innocents are just collateral damage.
Do Pakistani’s really will to decimate terrorism? Or is their ‘victimization’ just a smokescreen? If the Indian Army can flush out ‘invaders’ from the treacherous Kargil mountains, then why not a similar offensive work in the FATA etc…
Peace can be achieved on equal & mutual terms, if you’ll can’t rein in the ISI beast, then all peace talks are a farce, & sadly the Democratic Establishment has neither proved their mettle nor shown any sign of playing an assertive role & giving justice to the mandate given to them by the citizens, not that I doubt their capabilities, but their impotent approach is palpable.

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

‘Pakistan key to bringing peace in Afghanistan’
AFP

LONDON: Peace will only come to Afghanistan if Pakistan can sort out the militants on its side of the border, where US strikes are not helping, the head of Britain’s armed forces told The Sunday Times newspaper.

Air Chief Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup said only politics, long term, could bring peace on both sides of the frontier.

The chief of the defense staff said that weaknesses in Afghan President Hamid Karzai’s government were causing difficulties for the 8,300 British troops battling Taleban insurgents in the troubled south of the country.

“The weakness of governance in Afghanistan worries me considerably,” Stirrup told the weekly broadsheet.

“But governance is not just about what goes on in Kabul. We have to look at the wider picture.

“The Taleban movement — and Taleban is now a catch-all phrase for ideologues, criminals, people with tribal grudges, people who are quite simply guns for hire to keep bread on the table — is on both sides of the border.

“It makes no distinction between one side or the other. Some people move across. Some are based almost exclusively in Pakistan. Some are based exclusively in Afghanistan.

“It’s impossible to distinguish between those two and actually, in my view, not necessary. The border is not relevant.” Stirrup sympathized with the difficulties faced by the Pakistani military, admitting that its success so far had been “limited.”

“The Pakistan Army has a series of very considerable problems,” he said, adding it had realized that “the growing insurgency within its own borders is an existential problem for Pakistan.” Gen. Ashfaq Kayani, the head of Pakistan’s army, “is absolutely clear on the size of the challenge that he faces.

“The Pakistan Army has become much more sophisticated and much more flexible and adaptable in terms of its approach.

“So we have to do all we can to support the military in that shift, but we have to recognize that they can’t do it overnight.

“Just as in Afghanistan, that kind of insurgency cannot be defeated by conventional military means. It can only be dealt with, in the long term, through politics.” He said it was “very important” for the Islamabad government to start changing public sentiment that all would be well if Western troops were not in Afghanistan.

“While they shouldn’t be driven by public opinion, they can’t operate in the face of it. The Predator strikes don’t help in that regard,” he said, referring to US air strikes on the Pakistani side of the border.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Anup
The day you stop thinking ISI is supporting terrorism and many of people in your country and government stop thinking this way, India will make a lot of progress. Look at the time enerfy you spend on saying ISI supports terrorists. Saying a thousand times that sun rises from the west will not make it rise from the west, it will always rise form the east.
India is isolated internationally in its stand against Pakistan. Both Obama and UK foreign secretary have stated that Kashmir needs to be resolved. You are better off not to live in a state of denial and stop thinking ISI is supporting or sponsoring terrorism. The US, Canada, France, UK or EU none of the international community thinks that we. India will be diplomatically isolated by adopting such a stance.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

“However,when you have an Afghan (as we do on this forum) who is ungrateful for the kindhearted & generous way in which Pakistan treated his country in the past, then it shows how ungrateful he is being”

– Qasim

You’ve missed the point again and stuck with old assumptions simplifying the issue. That all Afghanis, including our reuters Afghan, were treated fairly in Pakistan. This is simply not true and we don’t have an account of OUR Afghan’s experience, or family’s experience in Pakistan. Perhaps we should ask him?

You also jumped to the assumption that Pakistan treated Afghanistan well too, again which is not the case. I’ve been there, and I know them and their stories. It doesn’t stop with Afghanis. There are many Kashmiris and Balochis who dislike Pakistan. It may sound shocking at first, but it is true, though it is not a majority view, it is a large unhappy bloc of ethnicities. We can’t ignore this and must be practical to the reasons why.

Posted by Saf | Report as abusive

PK,

I’m impressed that you’ve realized how misled we were in our youths. Such as “Ek Pakistani fauji, DUS Indian say Ziyada behter hai”. Many believe this into their old age.
Our roles in 65 and 71 (especially 71). The sectarian violence in the 90′s which was constantly blamed on RAW. Not that RAW didn’t have their hands on the BLA or the early MQM, but it was obvious their fingerprints were not there in the 90′s onwards. Yet, many of our citizens believe it to be so rather than extremists backed by the Middle East(and surprisingly a couple of Indians too believe it was RAW!). Then we saw how much in denial many of the Pakistani posters were on this forum on the off chance that Kasab was a Pakistani, which indeed was the case, only to be embarrassed by our politicians doing an about face.

I would suggest everyone listen to PK. He’s got the reasons down pat.

Posted by Saf | Report as abusive

Anup,

Though not the same reasons with Umair, I am with the same conclusion that the ISI are NOW on our side (if you asked me 6 months ago I would have given you a different answer).

A recap of its notorious history:

The ISI WERE sponsoring terrorism (Dawood Ibrahim) and supported the Taliban as a proxy. This is fact. There were religious radicals in ISI. This is fact. Lal Masjid was where many ISI employees had prayed and used as recruitment for their activities. This is fact. ex-ISI chief Hamid Gul still voices support for the Taliban. This is fact. ISI were involved in many disappearances of Pakistani citizens. This is fact. ISI were responsible for many results in political elections and bugging of opposition politicians committed by their political wing. This is fact.

So why start believing in them now?

The new ISI chief is Shuja Pasha. Unlike his predecessors he doesn’t have a religious ideology and is a better covert tactician than his last predecessor, Ashfaq Kiyani the current Chief of Staff fighting the Taliban who himself was revered by the CIA. Pasha’s appointment is considered a tremendous boost in the fight against the Taliban. He also abolished the political ISI wing that had caused much internal strife supporting military takeovers. This ensures more freedom to our civilian politicians.

Ashfaq Kayani was accused of doing a double take…as in hunting Al-Qaeda, but using the Taliban still as a proxy to guard against whatever Indian interests lay in Afghanistan or helping the BLA.

But many critics believe Kayani was simply not in control of the lower echeleons of ISI agents unlike Pasha. Kayani is stil credited in streamlining operations with the US along the border which was a constant complaint last year by both sides.

Pasha is said to claim if agents were to disobey his plans then there would be severe consequences compared to the past where field agents were given full autonomy.

They’ve upgraded their intelligence and investigative units throughout the security forces with the help of Britain’s MI-5(or 6?). Reports of kidnapped Pakistani citizens by security forces are now not heard including reduced bombings however city and regional battles still rage.

Overall there’s an improvement. Due to the Mumbai killings there’s been more activity than in recent memory due to pressure and new organizational goals. Though as they try to progress, there are still loose strings, such as, ex-army men and agents who are betraying the country. There are also those traitors in the forces who were accused just one year back to supporting the militants. Despite these obstacles, the outlook is optimistic at least in Security aims.

Posted by Saf | Report as abusive

Umair,

It was us who were more enthralled with RAW in the past rather than the Indians were with ISI. They’ve progressed relatively quite well and better than us. They’re after the ISI because of the recent Mumbai killings.

India isn’t isolated, as the West is in a diplomatic engagement in trying to keep Pakistan concentrated towards its West borders. Many Western Intelligence reports had blamed the ISI before many times including sources on reuters and BBC. Even us Pakistani citizens have blamed the ISI for many conspiracies. As the British PM had mentioned, 75% of their terror investigations had connection to Pakistan. India’s concerns aren’t totally unfounded.

Posted by Saf | Report as abusive

The complex relationships among the ISI,army and of course the militants,as mentioned by Saf,is just driving the Pakistanis mad. We don’t know what to believe these days. Before the Mumbai attacks,India seemed to be the only country that was sure to make a cricket tour in Pakistan. The present relationship has so worsened that their cricket board heavyweight will now try to prevent others from touring Pakistan. If the perpetrators of the Mumbai attacks are Pakistanis,then they have betrayed Pakistan by killing our happiness.
I envy India,not because they are an economic powerhouse-sure their per capita GDP is lesser than us- but because they have got a single command at the center which has got at least some fear of the people. The world listens to them and look at us like a misbehaving child because half of the time our PM himself does not know who’s ruling the nation. I am just expecting that the current crisis will be over and that we will also attract tremendous investments from the world. If that is a reality we will be in a better position compared to India because our population is just one ninth of that of India and we can use our resources more effectively.

Posted by pk | Report as abusive

PASHTUNISTAN is a sad story. Thanks to the propaganda of the PA and ISI, people elsewhere might have got the impression all Pashtuns are raging jihadis.

The reality is there is NO PASHTUN NATIONALISTIC struggle against the foreign troops in Afghanistan. Rather a bunch of terrorists from Punjab, Arab countries, Central Asian republics etc are fighting for their own agendas and play havoc with the lives of ordinary Pashtuns. In the tribal areas all this is happening in connivance and collaboration with ….who else….PA and ISI..of course.

The primary goal for the Afghan people SHOULD BE to establish a government in Kabul that truly represents the aspirations all the ethnic groups in Afghanistan. This is different from the goal of PA, ISI and Punjabistanis who primarily look at Afghanistan as their colony just like SINDUDESH, JINNAHPUR, BALOCHISTAN AND PASHTUNISTAN and would like to have some puppet government there even if that means they are Taliban.

They’re (Indians) after the ISI because of the recent Mumbai killings.
- Posted by Saf

Saf: Mumbai is very recent. We have suffered from terrorism heavily promoted by ISI/Pak since 1980s- For example Sikh terrorism. Latter is curbed but it shows up its heads once in a while. They say it is ISI and I belive them since still there are militants in Pak. Of course ISI/Kashmir militancy is well known. ISI is much admired by many Pakistanis for its ability to do such activities.

Umair it shouting ISI is boring but not untrue.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Saf, do you believe ISI is no longer engaged in anti-India activities just because they tore down the political wing ?? Woudn’t it be in the interest of ISI or pak govt to extradite criminals like Dawood (Indian citizen) rather than protecting him ?? Dont you think that would be the kind of actions that would make India and pakistan trust each other and sit for talks ??

Having said that.. pulling down Dawood doesn’t seem like a easy job or is not in the interest of politicians of either country..India has simply asked Pak to hand over Dawood but has failed to act on his drug bussiness in India..his drug bussiness is still active and crores of rupees a week are still being sent to him thru Hundi process from India ..there is no considerable effort in India to stop his bussiness..even in maharastra where recent attacks happened !! Shiv sena, MNS are all very active to voice against pakistani artists, books etc in mumbai..but nobody..absolutely nobody questioned politicians or the police as to why Dawood’s underworld bussiness is not curbed !!

Posted by Anitha | Report as abusive

Saf wrote:
“It was us who were more enthralled with RAW in the past rather than the Indians were with ISI. They’ve progressed relatively quite well and better than us.”
Well Saf stop fooling around, I dont believe you are a Pakistani. Listen up kid, Pakistanis are second to none, we are best professionals, Pakistani pilots are the best, we have made our name in the field of nuclear research and atomic energy. We have a skilled work force, natural resources, the will and everything a nation needs to succeed. We have been world champions in many sports including cricket and hockey. Keep in mind the successes of Pakistan and highlight them. We dont need people like YOU who degrade fellow Pakistanis. I suggest if you are so much in love with India go live there. I was born in Pakistan and I would like to die in Pakistan. Pakistan is where I belong to and everything I have belongs to Pakistan.
Pakistan Zindabad!!!
Pakistan always second to none!!!
Sab se Pehle Pakistan!!!
Pakistan meri Jan!!!

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

PK wrote:
“I envy India,not because they are an economic powerhouse-sure their per capita GDP is lesser than us- but because they have got a single command at the center which has got at least some fear of the people. The world listens to them and look at us like a misbehaving child because half of the time our PM himself does not know who’s ruling the nation. ”
Kid where about do you live in Pakistan, millions of proud Pakistanis live with honour and dignity. Pakistan is a 170 million strong muslim nations and a nuclear power. Pakistan is a major Non-NATO ally of the US(MNNA) and a frontline state. NATO secretary general, UK Foregin secretary , US Vice President elect are only a few individuals visited Pakistan recently. Friends of Pakistan(FOP) is a group of friendly countries supporting Pakistan’s economic revival. We only lack on economic front and need to ensure amid global economic crisis we build a strong and dependable economy. Pakistan is strategic important country. I envy Pakistan always, Pakistan is the greatest country with great people capable of achieving anything in the world. Pakistan has no shortage of potential. Now that you envy India, I suggest take the next train to India. Good bye.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Anitha wrote:
“Woudn’t it be in the interest of ISI or pak govt to extradite criminals like Dawood (Indian citizen) rather than protecting him ?? ”
Anitha ISI is an intelligence agency just like Indian RAW, US CIA, Israeli Mossad, Russian KGB. The world of intelligence is totally different, these agencies sometime share intelligence with each other, in case of Pakistan and Israel, both these countries have no diplomatic relations and never recognized each other. However, it is believed that there has been a working relationship between Mossad and ISI. In case of ISI, it has developed termendous skills and has become a very strong agency working to identify and eliminate internal and external threats to Pakistan.
Now the question of extradition of Dawood Ibrahim, Pakistan does not have an extradition treaty with India. Pakistan is under no international obligation to extradite any Pakistani or non-Pakistani citizens to India. UK foreign secretary David Milliband stated in New Delhi that any individuals should face trial in Pakistan and there is NO need to extradite them to India. Pakistan is a soverign nation. If India wants an extradition treaty, they MUST restart the peace process.
you stated:”Dont you think that would be the kind of actions that would make India and pakistan trust each other and sit for talks ??”
You imply that Pakistan first extradite Dawood Ibrahim and then India will sit down and talk to sign an extradition treaty.
LETS DO IT THE RIGHT WAY, LET INDIA AND PAKISTAN RESUME PEACE PROCESS AND NEGOTIATE AND SIGN AN EXTRADITION TREATY FIRST. Next Dawood Ibrahim can be extradited to India immediately afterwards.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Umair, I know what ISI is..it doesn’t make any difference if people like Dawood are hanged in Pakistan or India..but the Paksitani law do not allow a person to be put on trial if the charge is the crime outside pakistani territory, the words spoken by Gilani that the terrorist master minds will eb tried in pakistani courts is a joke..to which court will Gilani take those terrorists in pakistan for the crime do not fall in to any pakistnai court jurisdiction ?? the witness for the terrorist activities are in mumbai !! how will Gilani run a court case in pakistan with out witness ??
And for Dawood..he travelled to Pakistan on a fake Indian passport and has been a chamcha to ISI for years and ISI is protecting him in karachi.
And there dont have to be a extradition treaty to kick out someone who is not a pakistani citizen.
Dawood thrievs on drugs smuggling, if my memory serves me right..you yourself have many times said drugs are coming in to pakistan from afghanistan and is a problem.. doesn’t it make sense to arrest him in which ever country he is ??

Posted by Anitha | Report as abusive

Anitha,

When the ISI aren’t going to publicly admit that they knew about the LeT, they’re not about to do it with Dawood. The question is…are the ISI into anti-Indian activity NOW? And I would answer, ‘no’. Like I said in my previous post, 6 months ago you would have had a different answer. The political wing was a BIG BIG thing, perhaps not outside our borders, but certainly to the viability of any opposition party in the country. Its a sign of change, and is not a department related to India. I’ve already outlined the change in leadership, reduction in field agent autonomy and change in religious ideological mindset in the organization that should stop self-sabotage.

Anitha, I think its fine to still mistrust them. I still mistrust them myself due to their history. I’m just more optimistic and so far the results have been surprising.

Posted by Saf | Report as abusive

maybe mrs lodhi should have had the guts to say the same things when her boss was in power.now when thes people have no office and no standings they have pangs of conscience and suudenly feel very much for their motherland.

Posted by James | Report as abusive

Anitha,
Dawood, he is undercover not because of Indian Intelligence looking for him, it’s because most of his rivals are waiting outside for him at his Karachi residence.

Most of his old aides are now rivals just because he became closer to Anti-India and Anti-Hindu movement by joining hands with ISI.

Come on how can Pakistan give away dawood when his turnover is around 120 Crores.

In absence of extradition treaty with Pakistan, all that India can do is bring these people under the books of World and UN, so their extradition will happen.

I recall many over here were talking about Interpol, they are one waste people in the World, India had handed over all the details of Dawood during 1993 blasts, everyone know he is undercover in Karachi yet none dare to arrest him.

Posted by Blogger | Report as abusive

Saf, this incident was recently reported in NY times.

Gilani wanted to tell Bush that he had sent forces into the tribal areas to clean out a major madrassa where hard-line ideology and intolerance were part of the daily curriculum. There were roughly 25,000 such private Islamic schools around Pakistan, though only a small number of them regularly bred young terrorists. The one he decided to target was run by the Haqqani faction of Islamic militants, one of the most powerful in the tribal areas.

Though Gilani never knew it, Bush was aware of this gift in advance. The National Security Agency had picked up intercepts indicating that a Pakistani ISI warned the leadership of the school about what was coming before carrying out its raid. “They must have called 1-800-HAQQANI,” said one person who was familiar with the intercepted conversation. According to another, the account of the warning sent to the school was almost comic. “It was something like, ‘Hey, we’re going to hit your place in a few days, so if anyone important is there, you might want to tell them to scram.’ ”

When the “attack” on the madrassa came, the Pakistani forces grabbed a few guns and hauled away a few teenagers. Sure enough, a few days later Gilani showed up in the Oval Office and conveyed the wonderful news to Bush: the great crackdown on the madrassas had begun. The officials in the room — Bush; his national security adviser, Stephen Hadley; and others — did not want to confront Gilani with the evidence that the school had been warned. That would have required revealing sensitive intercepts, and they judged, according to participants in the discussion, that Gilani was both incapable of keeping a secret and incapable of cracking down on his military and intelligence units. Indeed, Gilani may not even have been aware that his gift was a charade: Bush and Hadley may well have known more about the military’s actions than the prime minister himself.

Posted by Anitha | Report as abusive

Saf,
I agree that most of the ISI feathers are getting pluck, but for how long? They will retaliate and another coup?
Every time we see some thing good happening at Pakistan then next minute we evidence a coup. This really frustrates anybody to start the whole process with all new people having different ideology.
60 years yaar…. :)

Posted by Blogger | Report as abusive

Blogger, Dawood is definately not under cover in pakistan..he very often attends lavish wedding functions..goes to cricket matches…parties in with political big shots…yeah in India i heard chota rajan who was his right hand tried to get him killed more than once in other countries.

Posted by Anitha | Report as abusive

Anitha,

Can you post the NY Post link. I’d like to save it. It sounds plausible. And you’re right, I also believe Dawood’s not undercover. The joke these days is “Ask Javed Miandad”. Miandad’s son is married to Dawood Ibrahim’s daughter. Which seriously filled my heart with doubts about my hero’s accomplishments.

Posted by Saf | Report as abusive

60 years yaar…. :)

-Blogger

lol. I know yaar, i know…. :(

Posted by Saf | Report as abusive

Umair,part 1

We already had this nonsense talk about me being Pakistani. You can’t comprehend it because you’re in a bubble. Kid? How old are you?

Yes, we have many professionals. But guess what? They’re not shining. Why? Because we have corrupt and neglectful people sitting at every position throughout private and public sectors in Pakistan undermining progress. When someone I know whose a brilliant engineer, and worked with the best multi-national companies, tries to make their impact again in Pakistan only to face hostility in the organization with one Retired Army Officer telling him he’ll break his legs if he did something, then you’ve got a bloody problem.

Our pilots are the best, yet our PAF and Navy are still peanuts due to army neglect and our National Carrier has still not taken flight above the red ink due to bureaucracy with the embarrassment of having our planes grounded in Europe due to poor quality just a year and a half ago.

Our National Resources are limited with Gas supplies running out. What irks me most is how every successive government always encouraged the poor man to buy more CNG, when the truth is our reserves are depleting at an alarming pace and eventually prices will keep rising.

Posted by Saf | Report as abusive

Part 2

Sri Lanka shell shocking us in the final wasn’t exactly reminding me of ’92 in cricket. We’ve been languishing in hockey for so long, its almost dead. Where are we in squash? Why don’t we have a viable football team? Why do you keep dreaming of the past when we should be realizing the current state of affairs and working for the future?

Actually we do need more Pakistanis who degrade other Pakistanis and HOLD them ACCOUNTABLE! So many of us have become boastful, deluded and willing to look the other way, that we can’t seem to tell right from wrong.

An example: That hypocrite Justice Qayuum admitted that Wasim Akram was also guilty of match fixing but chose to dismiss it from his inquiry because he was a ‘national treasure’. We should be outraged at how morally bankrupt that decision was. There are so many individuals like him, and Wasim, in positions high to low that make these ethical excuses.

Posted by Saf | Report as abusive

Part 3

I talk about the successes but I don’t FORGET and EXCUSE the failures. And unfortunately you don’t seem to have grasped the complexity of the situation. SWAT has been taken over, YAAR! I used to go there for vacations and now people have become refugees! Our dumbest feudal Senator who defends honour killings, is the filthy richest as printed in the news yesterday.

F$#@@#ing Tehrik-e-Taliban had the audacity to open an office in the middle of Karachi! We had a parallel Lal Masjid government open in the middle of Islamabad! Our ex PM was assassinated and we have yet to have a proper conclusion.

These aren’t LITTLE things. Little things is entering Jinnah terminal, and seeing everybody breakout in line and cutting ahead without respect, when a couple of hours ago in Dubai they were all well behaved standing in line. That is unacceptable. That is a mentality I want to get rid off.

Posted by Saf | Report as abusive

crap.
I can’t seem to copy paste my part 4 properly!

So yea, I say alot of mean stuff. Only because I’m more critical and want high standards. Only because I like Pakistanis to stay principled rather than say ‘sab chalta hai, yaar’. Do u get it now?

Take it from PK. 80% of us don’t even know about Pakistan’s history until we step out and start questioning what we know. Screaming PAKISTAN ZINDABAD will not make u a better Pakistani nor does it mean you’re any more patriotic than me. Challenge your perceptions.

And yea, I’ve been to India. And Afghanistan. Yet I’m here chilling in Karachi 8)
Thanks. Khuda Hafiz.

Posted by Saf | Report as abusive

Saf
your 4 part thought provoking posts are a good analysis of our current situation. This is precisely why my belief is ever stronger on Pakistan. Pakistan is alive with possibilites, this country has been looted by both hands, wars, internal conflicts, economic sanctions, terrorism, we have come a long way. We still have to go a long way. The need is to revive the spirit of this nation. Why do you think Pakistan cricket cannot revive the glory of 92′ ?why can’t the golden era of hockey not return? what happened to the champions of squash? why we dont see the Pakistan flag and national anthem once used to play at British open? We have done it before, we will do it again. Swat and Bajaur are a test for us. From Islamabad to Karachi we Pakistanis need to unite as one nation and come together. I dont say all this because I am blindly patriotic, I say this because I have worked and travelled abroad and in my opinion Pakistanis are very talented and committed people.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Umair calls me a kid :) I had seen his perceptions that we had won the war against India in 1965-a lie from our army which we are digesting it till to date. And I had seen 1971 occur :) Umair says “Friends of Pakistan(FOP) is a group of friendly countries supporting Pakistan’s economic revival. ” Huh? Utter Garbage! What did China do when we asked for help? He/She says,”Pakistan is strategic important country” .That’s why the whole world try to invade our nation and destroy it!. Remember the war on terror and remember that the only time India allowed an US war craft for refueling in its land was in 1991 and it never happened again due to the people’s pressure. Does people’s pressure exist here?

And you say you envy Pakistan :). A patriot doesn’t feel jealous of his own nation,he loves his nation . I love Pakistan and I envy India somewhat:)

Posted by pk | Report as abusive

Saf,
You mention about Pakistan’s poor position in hockey .Ya it is sad. But I am chuckling,do you know why? Its because Indians are even worse than us. Ours is almost dead,theirs is dead already ha ha-sorry Indians!Just can’t help myself grinning :) But they are just behind us in squash and they are well established in Chess,a game we haven’t even started..

Posted by pk | Report as abusive

PK,
Oye stop laughing at us on Hockey. We will always strike back,you know. By the way Chess need brains! -( I am sorry if I am offending anyone,I hope Pakistan will also come up in chess)

Posted by mitchell | Report as abusive

Mitchell,
Talking about brains,One of my friend visited your railways page about Kashmir Railways and reservation only to discover an advertisement on flights,”Get Flight tickets at a rate as low as Railways” :-)

http://www.indianrailwaysreservation.in/ train-to-kashmir.html

I don’t know whether we can see the exact advertisement as it changes from country to country. I think you live in India and you can see it.

Posted by pk | Report as abusive

“Ours (hockey) is almost dead,theirs is dead already ha ha-sorry Indians!Just can’t help myself grinning But they are just behind us in squash and they are well established in Chess,a game we haven’t even started..”
—Posted by pk

pk: : Yes, Indian hockey is worse and sadly it is our National game. KPS gill former DG punjab police who earned name in eradicating (ISI supported) sikh terrorism (we Indians are rightly obsessed with ISI :-)] is the chief of IHF and has not done anything for the game. Hope it regains its old glory.

India is big in Cricket and IPL (Pak players make money in IPL too; guess not this time).

India is still good at Gandhian games of chess and teenis. interestingly, we are making name in games like shooting and boxing (olympic gold and bronze). Mahatma Gandhi will not be too happy about latter two–but with change in geopolitical scenario, relevant games are must :-) lol

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/magazi ne/11pakistan-t.html?_r=2&scp=1&sq=Crack %20down%20on%20madrassas&st=cse
its quite a big article.
- Posted by Anitha

Anitha and Saf:
quite extensive NY times article. Did you read this old 2001 OBL interview?
http://www.dawn.com/2001/11/10/top1.htm)

HM: Some Western media claim that you are trying to acquire chemical and nuclear weapons. How much truth is there in such reports?
“OSB: I heard the speech of American President Bush yesterday (Oct 7). He was scaring the European countries that Osama wanted to attack with weapons of mass destruction. I wish to declare that if America used chemical or nuclear weapons against us, then we may retort with chemical and nuclear weapons. We have the weapons as deterrent.”

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Today they were showing a Volleyball game between India and Pakistan on GEO Sports. They can’t hang against the Cuban women volleyball team!

What irks me most is the total population in South Asia, and none of the countries can produce ONE decent Soccer team, private or national, to compete with other soccer clubs or the world! I mean out of millions at least one team of 11 players PLEASE! COME ON!

Plus, why is it we enjoy Badminton in South Asia and can’t seem to hang with the Indonesians or the Malaysians?

No way will I consider Chess, Scrabble or any other board game as a sport! I already have a tough time in calling Golf one! lol.

Posted by Saf | Report as abusive

Umair,

I’m glad you’ve understood my POV. We’ve got the talent and resources. We have signs of optimism. Lets not stop there. With that enthusiasm we must analyze realities. We should stop saying ‘Hum yeh hotay thay’ and instead strive for a goal of ‘Hum yeh HAI!’. To achieve that is to look at our country critically and never be satisfied.

We’ve got too many rotten apples to be weeded out. Islamabad, our capital, is now going through an energy shortage. This can’t fly.

A good example of talent but not being used properly is the mayor of Karachi, Mustafa Kamal. Bloody brilliant and a diamond in the rough. BUT, he’s still part of MQM, meaning he has to kiss up to Altaf ‘bhai’ and he is still boss. It means our diamond’s shine is being blocked by the rotten leadership and criminal activities of his political organization’s members. This is true for our government, army, political parties and business organizations throughout Pakistan.

My doctor advised me not to read the newspapers because of my BP, but I can’t help it! And today’s DAWN picture and caption had me boil up. It was about SWAT and a sign infront of a tailor shop read “No women allowed” in Urdu. Out of all the regions I’m upset at most is our soldiers in SWAT. Too many reports of them watching idly by which raises alot of questions. These must be answered.

This is why your enthusiasm irked me. It gave an image of delusion, and that this was all you saw, and were satisfied with. I now know that you know it is not the case and you are just optimistic. That’s good. BUT we must keep demanding high standards and accept criticism for coming short.

Posted by Saf | Report as abusive

Thanks for the link, Anitha. I read only the first page as I have to sign up to be a NY times member, of which I’ll do later and fill out with bugmenot.com.

Just a quick observation. The author is assuming the Pakistan army didn’t know of the ‘security breach’ of Abdul Qadeer Khan’s nuclear sharing. The truth is, the army knew about it, and he was put under house arrest for a few years without trial (notice the same trend with the LeT leader). Remember they touted him as a hero after the detonation stand off with India. Even then his smuggling operations were an open secret. This was no rogue ISI agent, he had state approval.

Posted by Saf | Report as abusive

It’s heartening to see that we fellows are finally discussing Sports instead of Jehads and Wars. Well, there is no reason to beleive that two nations with such a strong population can not achieve anything in this world. Who knows where we would have been together working on fronts that really matter like Science, Democracy and above all Economy. And yes, for that sake I would like to mention two latest news items from India:

1) India’s per capita income doubled in last 7 years. The figure may not be very impressive but sure is a good step forward.
2) ISRO plans to land on Moon by 2025. This day would be the happiest day of my life.

I beleive days will come soon when we will have days to think on issues like this and not like terror.

Posted by Aaruni Upadhyay | Report as abusive

“Come on how can Pakistan give away dawood when his turnover is around 120 Crores.”
@ Blogger

I am not sure of the accuracy of this figure but if seriously if it’s this then seriously Dawood is having free meals in Pakistan.
120 crore, is that all Pakistan protects him for?? :)

Posted by Aaruni Upadhyay | Report as abusive

Dawn is one of the saner voices in Pakistan. In today’s opinion column ‘The worst of times By Shahid Javed Burki’ analyzes where the country’s economy went wrong .The article says, “Ziaul Haq went on to destroy the few political and economic institutions the country was left with. He disfigured the constitution to establish an all-powerful presidency within a parliamentary framework. The inherent tension in this approach could not be reconciled. The most ill-advised move by the religiously inclined military leader was to impose on the country a version of Islam that was foreign to it. His move in that direction, unfortunately, had the support of the United States which wanted jihadis for its mission to expel the Soviet Union from Afghanistan.”

An another article by Anees Jillani takes on the stance taken by Pakistan that it is also a country affected by terrorism and that will respond only reluctantly “Nobody can dispute the government’s assertion that terrorism is as much a problem for Pakistan as for any other country. This is, however, only part of the problem. The question is what is the state doing to curb terrorism? The terrorists may be closing schools in Swat, and directing the locals to grow beards, and ordering all shops selling CDs to close their businesses.
But this is our internal problem, and if we choose to keep mum about it, it is our own choice. However, when the same terrorists start intruding into the territory of our neighbouring countries, then it no longer remains a domestic problem, and this is what the international community has been trying to explain to our rulers.”

Posted by mitchell | Report as abusive

Aruni,
Dawood is having free meals in Pakistan with some drugs plus nice models plus full security :P

Posted by Blogger | Report as abusive

PK,
Get Flight tickets at a rate as low as Railways” :-)
–Lallusim :P

Posted by Blogger | Report as abusive

Saf, how do you say A.Q Khan proliferated with the state approval ?? is it because he openly told in media that Musharaff directed him to do so ?? Remember A.Q khan is someone who stole the design blue prints from Netherlands to build plants in pakistan..he was caught and was in prison in India for years..he has been reported to have done meetings with Bin laden in afghanistan..in my view A.Q Khan is not someone who can be believedf or what he states.

However you could be right..because there is simply no investigation allowed by pakistan on this matter by both musharaf or Zardari and he is kept under house arrest just to keep him away from media.

Posted by Anitha | Report as abusive

Kashmir issue should be resolved ASAP. It is very dangerous if we ignore this very important issue.

Guys,
Lot has been written about ISI, Pak Army and its role in promoting terrorism against India . Let’s go to the history a few years back , in 1947 , Pakistan was formed after carving our muslim dominated areas of India, which included East Pakistan carved out Bengal , and a part of present Tripura . In 1971, following massive blood shed and oppression by marauding Pakistan Army East Pakistan seceded from Pakistan to form Bangladesh , again an islamic country . The creation of Bangladesh , clearly raises so many unpleasant questions about very principals on which Pakistan was formed ?. Pakistan Army and ruling elite is not able to fathom this fact. After demise of Jinna, Pakistan has been under dictatorial army regimes , every single dictator ruling Pakistan had one simple agenda to teach India , a land of infidels and kafirs a lesson , all the resources and foreign aid was diverted to strengthen Pak Army , as a result economic development was neglected , religious and jehadi elements were given prominence . Gen Zia al haque, in his bid to please his masters in US and Saudi to help them drive out Soviets from Afghanistan, he created a new brand of militant islamic group which was alien to Pakistan and this part of world . After Afghanistan was liberated, these militants were after extracting price for their services. Pak Army in collusion with ISI has been extending all the material and logistic support to these terrorists to help them in implementing their acts of terror. Post 1971, Indo-pak war, and also subsequent to liberation of Bangladesh, Pak Army was totally disillusioned, they had been all along projecting the might of Pak Army to the people of Pakistan, but despite covert support from US and Saudi, they had to face humiliating defeat against Indian Army ,their myth was exposed . Pak Army and ISI, in post 1971 war, they started cultivating Sikhs in Punjab, with the idea of splitting India and making Punjab a separate country, they failed in their misadventure . Pak Army and ISI started hobnobbing Kashmiris to promote militancy, they lodged a low cost war to bleed India , Kashmir terrorists were given new name “Freedom Fighters ” , in last 10 years, 70000 lives lost , still Pak Army and ISI failed to achieve desired result. Suddenly , they changed their strategy , they found a new collaborator Dawood Ibrahim, a notorious drug smuggler , extortionist ,under world don of Mumbai, and his drug running ring and extortionist racket spread in different part of India, came handy to the Pak Army and ISI , a series of terrorist actions were launched against India, 1993 Mumbai bomb blast , in which more 2000 lives lost, this was a great success for this trio of Pak Army , ISI and Dawood. After post 9/11, where FBI found direct evidence linking Dawood hawala racket and perpetrators of 9/11, US pressurised UAE govt to extradite Dawood to US, Dawood fled Dubai and now living under ISI shelter. 26/11 , all evidences point out in the direction of ISI, Pak Army and Dawood, in fact Russian intelligence in a report has clearly stated that Dawood’s drug racket has provided the logistic support to the terorrist of 26/11. despite reports in Pak media, that Kasab is Pakistani , Pakistani Govt is in constant state of denial. Why Pakistan is doing this, what is the objective ? What do they want to achieve ?

Many commentators have made attempts to draw similarity between Babri Masjid demolition and terrorists in Pakistan , this was indeed the most heinous act in the Indian history carried out by Indians but this act was done by Indians in the territory of India. Indians did not go to Pakistan or any third country to commit this act , and hence the attempt to draw the similarities in not tenable . 26/11 was indeed most condemnable act perpetrated by people of Pakistani origin, now the question is whether Pak Govt was involved or not and whether Pakistanis are capable of taking any action against perpetrators of Mumbai terror attack.

Posted by Manish | Report as abusive

Saf

The Pakistani Army Est. has a Grand Plan! Sujat Pasha is a smart operator & knows exactly what soundbytes to give to the western media.(but Kyani is as deadly as Obama, lets see what fructifies in the long run, Holbrooke will spell disaster in the Indian sub-continent is a surety,the sub-continent is the ultimate looser, whose loss is more-time will tell)
M15 is a Double Agent, right now they trying to undermine America in Afghanistan & are selling the idea of a Power sharing between Taliban & Karzai to all parties, Pakistan , NATO, Taliban…but America is yet not biting the bait.

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

Umair
India’s progress is an entirely different subject…not anyways linked or subject to Pakistan, it neither contributes nor affects it’s progress. Frankly the ISI is of nothing more than of nuisance value to India…
The appointment of Holbrooke as a sp. Envoy, answers the remaining part of your post..

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

Anup, As you said the power sharing between karzai and Taliban could also be in the interest of Obama..I see the reason for chosing Holbrooke (several times Nobel peace prize nominated person) is to indulge Taliban in to talks rather than continuing the never ending fight there..and make a safe peacfull exit for US and Nato troops from the region. Obama might very well choose to just put CIA to work to catch Osama rather than having troops fighting there with no results but is costly.

If this is the case.then as you said Holbrooke is a disaster in the long run..As taliban after sometime not only will retake all afghanistan but is succesfully operating in parts of pakistan also.
And I also think the key to prevent sucha disaster lies in teh hands of pakistan..it can be prevented only if pakistan makes up mind to truely fight and eliminate the self created jehadi cult operating in pakistan before Holbrooke progessess to broker between US and Taliban.

Posted by Anitha | Report as abusive

Anitha

—Cold War ends – Soviet Union neutralized & torn apart- mission accomplished- America abandons Central Asia – thirsts for new ‘enemy’ – secretly instigates Sadam to invade Kuwait – & then the rest follows – Oil.
Meanwhile Pakistani Army gets ambitious – clandestinely creates Taliban – humors Osama for Saudi funding – asserts itself as an Islamic nuclear force – fancies it’s chances of becoming a Global Power by playing the Islamic card & establishing itself as a modern Caliphate – plans to increase it’s influence in the recently formed muslim states out of USSR – 9/11 takes place – Taliban is surely not involved – Osama is projected, not necessarily directly involved, some funding & maybe in the loop, but the brain is a hogwash- American Intelligence whips xenophobic hysteria – ‘new enemy’ – not a second thought – attacks Afghanistan – 8 long years, still ‘hunting’ Osama – who ironically is not in Afghanistan but in an area of less than 7000 sq.kms, with a presence of hundred thousand Pakistani soldiers – the whole gameplan is to plug the Gateway to Asia. Do not see wh they’ll want to leave once having established base…NATO either plays the game or pays for the game…either way they loose…no choice. After the holocaust , Holbrooke will again be nominated for a Nobel price, for which a Gandhi was not an eligible candidate…

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

Anitha,

Another good article to read is:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/23/world/ asia/23pstan.html?_r=2&hp&oref=slogin

You can’t take the accuracy of all Western reports as there’s stuff that’s loose. Like in the NY Times on Gilani waiting till ISI clears and strikes a Madrassa so he can go and tell the US at the great accomplishment. This would be unlikely considering how an embarrassing moment had unfolded for him trying to get the ISI under the Interior Ministry which was vehemently rejected by the army. They’re not on the same page.

As the NY Times article you posted and online articles suggest, there’s WAAAYYY too many secrets about AQ Khan and talk about implicating other individuals around the world that hasn’t been disclosed. Just reading AQ Khan’s Wiki page confuses you.

AQ Khan meeting Laden is unlikely considering his dealings were purely for nuclear advancement and he had ties with Iraq. This is probably more fiction and hype as there were already too many personal contacts such as Hamid Gul that would waste an asset such as AQ Khan in Afghanistan.

The reason I suggest AQ Khan’s activities were known had to do with particular incidents in the 80′s. As you know there’s too many loose lips on Pakistan’s side, unfortunately you have to decipher it as fact or fiction as there’s no reliable source, but too many incidents and talks between engineers and army fellows on the capability of creating a nuke had surfaced.

It is true as you suggested, however, that an investigation is the only way to separate truth from fiction.

Posted by Saf | Report as abusive

Anup,

It sounds that there’s too many twisted conspiracies. Such as MI-5 being a double agent and working against the States. That’s an opinion, not a fact and not very likely. However this is not always the case. Simply put, except for Chechnya, Pakistan’s interest in the independent post-USSR states, except Afghanistan, disappeared as well. The controlling Asia idea is too impractical and ambitious even for them.

Remember Pakistan in the 80′s was following 2 ideologies. Undermine India’s interests because of their paranoia and resort to extreme measures; and being a Muslim superpower (the Saudi Wahabi kind). However as you’ve seen with the country, everything needs good management.

India didn’t have interest or couldn’t get their foot in the door with the new ex-Russian states, hence Pakistan didn’t do the same. If Pakistan was looking out for its own interest they probably have been more receptive with trade with them (which was only realized under Musharraf with the Gawadar Port). But they didn’t. So where did they keep their eye on? Afghanistan. Why? Because of India’s past trade and back door access to Balouchistan.

So why did Pak support the Taliban and not the Northern Alliance? Two reasons. Many Northern Alliance members were still historically friendly with India and not so with Pakistan AND N.Alliance were made up of minority ethnicities and Shia sects. The Taliban were mostly Pashtun and endorsed a Saudi extreme Wahabi Sunni outlook.

And I don’t think Holbrooke is going to hurt India much. Pakistan’s stability does matter to India, unlike what you mentioned to Umair. If it was such a nuisance there wouldn’t be so many deaths and separation movements which all do undermine progress. I do not believe Holbrooke will impede India’s development across borders.

However I would like to remind everyone RAW did indeed play spy games too in Balochistan and in Karachi. However it is unclear what role was played in the mid to late 90′s, and what direction RAW took, as it was found out that sectarian violence were funded from MidEast NOT India. It is likely RAW’s organizational goals of tit for tat changed, which is great, but no one knows for what reasons. This also coincided with India’s development.

Like I said, you have a right to mistrust Pasha, but I honestly think the organization has chosen to go a different direction. Currently the US is considering military action in Pakistan, though its not clear whether its going to be at the ground with or without Pakistani troops, or drone attacks. We’ll see. But the situation is SWAT is dire and Quetta, another major city, is silently transforming.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/78 66781.stm

Posted by Saf | Report as abusive

Anup,

Gandhi certainly did not will the Nobel Peace Prize even though over the last 60 years his techniques epitomize what to do to win such a prize. However, when you consider that the great Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr used Gandhi’s techniques and DID win the Nobel Peace Prize, then that makes Gandhi even great.

Posted by bulletfish | Report as abusive

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/78 69697.stm

Anup,

I take everything back. Its still the same! See link…lovely!

Posted by Saf | Report as abusive

Many of the people here accuse RAW of proxy war in Baloch and Sindh. I had googled a lot of times still I can’t a neutral article on the supposed RAW’s involvement in destabilizing Pakistan. Of course there are many Pakistani articles,but we can’t believe them,most of them talk garbage-like ‘Pakistan will teach India a lesson like they did in 1965′???!!!!! People who doesn’t know the causes of the 1965 war write blogs with flawed version of history. They remind me of Zaid Hamid.

Posted by mitchell | Report as abusive

Mitchell,

I fully agree with your views about RAW, when RAW can not protect us , how do you expect them to carry out sabotage in Pakistan ? You must have seen in the news , that one of the senior RAW officer, has been caught taking bribe of Rs 100000 (USD 2000) , RAW incidentally is considered in India as one of the most corrupt and ineffective organisation, only used to serve the political purposes of the ruling party in India . RAW was originally created by former prime minister Indira Gandhi to keep a watch on opposition politicians, and RAW is still maintaining its tradition to serve its political masters.
As regarding 1965 war, we in India are always told that this war was thrusted upon us by Pakistan and Pakistan suffered humiliating defeat , Indian forces reached very close to Lahore . Can you please tell me your perception about this war ? I would like to hear independent view .

Posted by Manish | Report as abusive

Saf
Britain is reportedly in secret talks with the Taliban in an attempt to instill peace in the war-torn Afghanistan. British secret service (M16) agents have held discussions with senior insurgents in Afghanistan on several occasions in the recent past, The Daily Telegraph of London reported on December 26. The disclosure came only a fortnight after Prime Minister Gordon Brown told the House of Commons. “We will not enter into any negotiations with these people. According to the daily, M16’s meetings with the Taliban took place up to half-a-dozen times at houses on the outskirts of Laskah Gah and at villages in the Upper Geresk valley, to the north-east of Helmand’s main town. To maintain the stance that Afghan President Hamid Karzai’s Government was leading the negotiations, “the clandestine meetings took place in the presence of Afghan officials.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnew s/asia/afghanistan/3179534/Afghan-presid ent-offers-Taliban-a-role-in-governing-c ountry.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/ politics/karzai-to-brief-pm-on-secret-ta liban-talks-1015831.html

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

Saf

—You bet RAW is not aware of these developments, lol,
–IK Gujral the PM of India in ’96, dismantled RAW & following govts. didn’t do much to revive it, so before the mid nienties, yes,India is clandestinely supporting the Balochi movement specially after the massacre of the last of their tribal chief, as it is, Pakistani Army has virtually sold Baluchistan to the Chinese, – Gwadar Port, natural resources – lock, stock & barrel, as they say…

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

bulletfish

—Are you equating Holbrooke with the great Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr?
Richard Charles Albert Holbrooke- A key player in government’s decision-making as the conflict in Vietnam escalated, Key advisor to propagate the war in Iraq & Afghanistan, East Timor controversy, Karadži? controversy, the Balkanisation etc.

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

Indians need to learn that Pakistan is owned by …..PAKISTANIS. Always has been and always will be.

Holbrooke should push India to conduct a referendum in Kashmir on what the Kashmiris want, that will solve the problem once and for all. Otherwise if Holbrooke simply targets Pakistan, he will not succeed.

“Indians need to learn that Pakistan is owned by …..PAKISTANIS. Always has been and always will be.”

- Except for western parts which are now owned by Taliban and easterparts which are now owned by non-state actors and North owned by china.

Posted by Anitha | Report as abusive

Personally knowing some ex-MQM workers, they indeed did confirm cash and lodging from India (however denied any training or weapons given, though this accusation is very frequent especially in regards to the BLA).

However apart from Wikipedia here’s some stuff about RAW from some sources. You can decide on the credibility.

http://www.dailymuslims.com/News-Article s/559.html
Quotes made by a US Lawmaker (I don’t know his integrity)

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/india/raw/
Intelligence Resource Program from the Federation of American Scientists

http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/raw1 .html
Can’t vouch for the reliability but this Panama martinfrost.ws website is recommended as an information aggregate

http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/wor ld/india/raw.htm
A world security watchdog.

http://www.cfr.org/publication/17707/raw .html
Council of Foreign Affairs, pretty much the same as global security.

I think the 2 reasons why RAW isn’t in the headlines compared to most intelligence agencies is probably because of its lack of notoriety (using already existing legit groups to advance agenda, rather than creating new ones) and recent intelligence failures such as Sri Lanka making it irrelevant infront of the public with corruption reinforcing that attitude. Of course this is my opinion NOT fact.

RAW is shouldn’t be singled out for all the intelligence failures. Its primary responsibility IS NOT homeland security. Those responsiblities belong to other Indian departments.

What I know of 1965 is different to the majority of Pakistanis and is a touchy issue. I’m surprised that you are taught that it is a win for India. Pakistan claims the same thing. However, in truth it was a draw because of the truce. BUT had the war gone on for another week, Pakistan would have eventually run out and not made it. On this basis, many in Pakistan celebrate it as a victory (National Defence Day) because they didn’t have the size to survive (over a week) an Indian attack, but managed to do so. Many in Pakistan believe they won out and out (as in destroyed Indian forces), and the rest believe the win was in the survival (repelled the attack). However most do not know how it happened and simply claim invasion.

It was instigated by Pakistan in Operation Grand Slam in Kashmir. It was a resounding success. However Ayub Khan’s boldness for such an attack was an assumption that India would not cross international borders. Which was wrong, as they did because India viewed and still views Kashmir as its territory. Reached very close to Lahore? They WERE just outside! Incredible luck for Pakistanis had to do with an Indian Commander’s false judgment of entrapment…because it was too EASY! Luckily PAF sent out jets and blew up the bridges to Lahore before ground forces could ‘walk’ into the city. So back and forth for over a week, each side claiming victory for each battle. UN steps in and truce. Though both Indians and Pakistanis are infatuated with the aerial dog fights, I think the battle of the tanks is something that most do not know about which perhaps was the greatest tank assaults in history.

Posted by Saf | Report as abusive

“…easterparts which are now owned by non-state actors…”
by Anitha.

lol. non-state actors?! Just as crazy as insurgents, extraordinary renditioin, weapons of mass destruction, etc!

Posted by Saf | Report as abusive

Bangash Khan:
“Indians need to learn that Pakistan is owned by …..PAKISTANIS. Always has been and always will be.

Holbrooke should push India to conduct a referendum in Kashmir on what the Kashmiris want, that will solve the problem once and for all. Otherwise if Holbrooke simply targets Pakistan, he will not succeed.”

Kashmir is an integral part and union of India. There is no question of referendum, as of 1947 Jammu and Kashmir are unseparable part of India.

By sponsoring Mumbai terrorist attacks, Pakistan has degraded its status from a “friendly” neighbor seeking good relations, to a pariah terrorist state undeserving of Indian friendship in all areas, trade, sports, cultral, people to people.

Considering this reality on the ground, Obama has wisely and strictly advised Holbrooke to stay away from Kashmir as this is a bilateral issue per 1972 Simla accord.

Once again Pakistan’s gamble of killing 172 civilians in Mumbai has earned it nothing but hate and scorn from the civilized nations around the world and taken Kashmir out of its reach forever. Holbrooke does not want a failed legacy, so he will wisely stay away from Bill Clinton era tactics and antics.
Nathuram Waghmare

Posted by Nathuram Waghmare | Report as abusive

Richard Charles Albert Holbrooke- A key player in government’s decision-making as the conflict in Vietnam escalated, Key advisor to propagate the war in Iraq & Afghanistan, East Timor controversy, Karadži? controversy, the Balkanisation etc.
- Posted by Anup

In that case, he’s PERFECT for Pakistan! lol. Peace Prize for Bosnia? I didn’t know a contribution to blanket bombing Serbs was regarded highly!

Nah, I kid. I’m grateful for the guy and the US helping out the Croats and Muslims (though probably more to do with sticking it to the Russians), but they bombed the Serbs BAD, not that they didn’t deserve it, but still that be the most violent candidate I’ve heard of.

Posted by Saf | Report as abusive

Obama and Holbrooke both know Kashmir is part of India itself. They don’t want to appear stupidly foolish by falling into the Pakistani trap and raise the Kashmir issue after Pakistani nationals murdered 172 civilians from 10 nations in Mumbai. The Americans would be rewarding Pakistani and as much as Pakistan wants it, the Americans are not that stupid to follow Nixon’s 1971 stupidity to cross Indians and support Pakistani slaughter of Bangladeshis and their antisemetic terrorism in Mumbai.

Holbrooke is a much more intelligent diplomat than Pakistanis give him credit for. By sponsoring Mumbai attacks on civilians Pakistanis have forever lost Indian good will and earned hate and scorn from all civilized nations. Stop dreaming about other’s property and mind your on country. Kashmir is now off the table for good after Mumbai.

What is this nonsense I hear about “sovreign nation” and “drones” in FATA??
Hon. President and Commander-In-Chief of the the most powerful Superpower in the Universe is a paying customer of Pakistan (some $20 billion US taxpayers monies, most of which is and was used for nefarious puposes and stolen by your leaders), and as such he or his surrogates, the CIA have every right to bend Pakistan a little and penetrate from behind into Pakistan’s “hot-bed”, FATA, as many times a day as he pleases, as agreed upon by your leaders.

Before Pakistanis start to complain about drones, get sore and uncomfortable, consider this , your own leadership declares every day “we Pakistanis are victims of terrorism” and “US must invest in Pakistan so the hopeless youth stop getting recuited as terrorists”.
After what the terrorists did to your other leader Benazir Bhutto, Pakistanis ought to be thankful to Obama for hitting the bad guys, but instead you are ungrateful? With “allies” like you who needs enemies right?

If you want America to give you unlimited Dollars in aid, then play by Obama’s rules. Its not that hard to understand. How else is America going to trust Pakistan with nukes and all the F22s and F35s you want, when you fail such basic test? Instead you give America a reason for distrust and are backing off from your ‘front-line ally” status already by not standing with USA and fighting shoulder to shoulder. How? By torching USA’s 250 loaded military trucks in Karachi and Peshawar enroute to Afghanistan based US troops. Do you think this is a good way to extract favors or money ot of a very kind friend and Superpower USA. You guys are really getting stupid!

Even Pakistan’s “all weather” and BFF China backed off helping Pakistan after what you guys did in Mumbai, evidence as seen and verfified by the EU and USA as Pakistani supported terror ativity.
Well I hope Almighty give Pakistani people the smarts to choose wisely to avoid disasters in your path, because your so called “leaders” will be enjoying wine with the Sheiks in Dubai when US or one of Pakistan’s neigbor does throw a “game-changer” at you to alter history and geography of Pakistan forever.
I pray to God that day never comes – but as you know some times prayers do get unanswere
Nathuram Waghmare

Posted by Nathuram Waghmare | Report as abusive

Nathuram Waghmare,

its really late on my side to reply in full, but no it wasn’t State sponsored. And you stereotyped everyone from government to layman to terrorist into one ball, not fair at all. You’re not being practical if you think Kashmir is going off the table and freezing our relationships isn’t going to help anyone. And no, those aren’t genuine prayers or sincere goodwill.

Posted by Saf | Report as abusive

AQ Khan meeting Laden is unlikely considering his dealings were purely for nuclear advancement and he had ties with Iraq.
- Posted by Saf

—-Saif: If I remember correctly the name of the scientist that met AlQaida is Mohammed (mentined in the NY article as mentally unstable scientist). So that must be before his arrest.
See this 2001 Dawn interview where OBL claims he has some nuke.
http://www.dawn.com/2001/11/10/top1.htm
I doubt that but there must be some basis like the hope of obtaining from this above-name scientist.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Though both Indians and Pakistanis are infatuated with the aerial dog fights, I think the battle of the tanks is something that most do not know about which perhaps was the greatest tank assaults in history.
- Posted by Saf

Saf: There is nothing like a draw. The claims can be overestimated but the balance of success tilted towards India due to the size and the kind of areas India held. Oops did I touch sensitive subject :-)

I agree with the tank fight. That was major. 3rd time writing this that Indian control was so complete that even my uncle who is a civilian went on the outskirts of Lahore–he still tells me his story. Pak tried to do to Amritsar what India did to Lahore. The khemkaran was the place where pak forces reached and were successfully pushed back (facts). Pak’s proud patton tanks and other tanks were destroyed or captured alive/working. Not to get into this sensitive topic :-)

Your message reminded me of my school text book about Indian soldier–all Pakistanis sit tight for the obvious reasons. The name was Abdul Hamid, a Havildar. he won posthumously the highest military award PVC for his achievemnts in Indo-Pak 1965 War. Oh I loved this story and read over and over.

“Although his citation gives him credit for only 3 Tanks destroyed, it is confirmed that he had destroyed no less than 7 enemy tanks [1]. This is because the citation for Abdul Hamid’s PVC was sent on the evening on 9 September 1965 but he destroyed 3 more tanks on the next day, plus the seventh one which also killed him. PVC Abdul Hamid’s actions exposed an important vulnerability in the Patton M48 and after the 1965 war, the M48 was largely forced into extinction from military use around the world and replaced by the M60. India set up a war memorial named “Patton Nagar” (“Patton Town”) in Khemkaran District, where the captured Pakistani Patton tanks are displayed. A U.S. study of the battles in South Asia concluded that weaker areas of the Patton’s armor (such as rear and sides) could in fact be penetrated by the 84mm 20 pounder guns of the Centurion and the 75mm guns of the AMX-13.The patton tank used in war were given by china.”

The citation for the Param Vir Chakra awarded to him reads:

COMPANY QUARTER MASTER HAVILDAR ABDUL HAMID
4 GRENADIERS (NO 2639985)
At 0800 hours on 10 September 1965 Pakistan forces launched an attack with a regiment of Patton tanks on a vital area ahead of village Cheema on the Bhikkiwind road in the Khem Karam Sector. Intense artillery shelling preceded the attack. The enemy tanks penetrated the forward position by 0900 hours. Realising the grave situation, Company Quarter Master Havildar Abdul Hamid who was commander of an RCL gun detachment moved out to a flanking position with his gun mounted on a jeep, under intense enemy shelling and tank fire. Taking an advantageous position, he knocked out the leading enemy tank and then swiftly changing his position, he sent another tank up in flames. By this time the enemy tanks in the area spotted him and brought his jeep under concentrated machine-gun and high explosive fire. Undeterred, Company Quarter Master Havildar Abdul Hamid kept on firing on yet another enemy tank with his recoilless gun. While doing so, he was mortally wounded by an enemy high explosive shell.

Havildar Abdul Hamid’s brave action inspired his comrades to put up a gallant fight and to beat back the heavy tank assault by the enemy. His complete disregard for his personal safety during the operation and his sustained acts of bravery in the face of constant enemy fire were a shining example not only to his unit but also to the whole division and were in the highest traditions of the Indian Army.”

Here is the link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_Qua rter_Master_Havildar_Abdul_Hamid

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

@Rajeev
I think the 1965 was a draw .
What you said is all true but not the complete truth.
India was stopped just outside of Lahore. Pak wanted to do a lahore but failed. India prematurely (Yes AGAIN!) ceasefired. 1 More week of war would have led to surrender of Pakistan. Pakistan had used most of her ammunition by that time.
@ Saf
Operation Gibraltar was a failure. All the strategic goals set by Pakistan for 1965 wars were not met. So claiming victory is just a wishful thinking.

Read the Wiki article that is probably most balanced
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Pakist ani_War_of_1965

Posted by chirkut | Report as abusive

Manish,
Since you asked about my views on the 1965 war,I will try to express some of my personal views and I will quote a few of my sources-all of the sources are Pakistani.

My personal view is like this. The war had been akin to that of a chess game. Pakistan started aggressively-operation Grandslam and operation Gibraltar-like many of us try to attack the opposition queen immediately at the second move itself,but India’s stance had been all defense. Because Pakistan tried to attack the queen,it lost many of its own pawns and exposed its defense vulnerability. India took advantage of it and tried to do a checkmate. But the patriotic Pakistani pawns built a castle around their king and finally convinced India for a draw.
But I don’t agree with the Pakistan army trying to feed ignorance to its people by hiding the fiasco of the Operation Gibraltar. Qadir, Brigadier (retd) Shaukat says “Whatever his [Ayub’s] reasons, Pakistan went into Operation Gibraltar without any preliminary preparations and undertook a guerrilla operation inside IHK with a large number of regular soldiers, some SSG elements and a smattering of irregulars, expecting to be welcomed by the local population and raise them up in arms against the Indian government. They were destined to be rudely disillusioned. Far from rising up in arms, the local population denied any support and, in many instances handed over the infiltrators to Indian troops”

I will quote a little more from Mehmal Sarfraz,Deputy Editor,the Post ,”A little more than two weeks into the battle and it was quite evident to Ayub that the army was running out of logistics – ammunition, fuel, food, etc. It is reported that during the war, the American ambassador said to Ayub Khan, “They [the Indians] have got you by the throat Mr President, don’t they?” or words to that effect. It is ironic that when our fairweather ‘friend’ the US decided to leave us in the lurch, the communist Soviet Union came to our aid and helped broker a ceasefire between India and Pakistan.”

I am pretty convinced that General Mushraff-or whoever advised him badly-himself was ignorant about the 1965 war. Else there would have been no kargil War-1965 part 2- at all.

Posted by mitchell | Report as abusive

Mitchell,

Thanks for updating me on 1965 war, can you enlighten me with you independent views as to what prompted Pakistan to go for this war? Was it on the advise of American and Saudi masters of Pakistan ? I want to go into the back ground of this war and other wars as well, both India and Pakistan are the world’s poorest countries , we put in so much our precious resources in fighting each other for reason or rhymes , why this war was imposed on us ? What are the reasons why former USSR brokered peace ? it was widely reported in Indian media and our history books are full of the fact that Indian army was striking distance from Lahore or Islamabad ? Was Shastri, the then Indian Prime Minister really died of heart attack or he was forced to sign Tashkent Agreement much against his will , which resulted in a massive heart attack to him? These are some of the facts,where I want an independent opinion .

Saf :

India is a poor country, when our security forces or intelligence agencies can not provide security to us, how can they launch sabotage or anti Pakistan activity inside Pakistan , perhaps occasionally , Indian agencies might have provided to media coverage to them , but mind it in the decades of seventies , or eighties or even early nineties, India was considered as Soviet block country , and in western media, India was treated as totally insignificant , it was only when our honeymoon with socialism was finished subsequent to fall of USSR, we launched massive massive economic reforms, the world realized the immense potential of India and Indian economy. The west or US is listening to us not for love of India, but because we hold such a massive market , Pakistan is still their first love, in last 10 years, US has given more USD 10 billion as military aid , this is the blatant example of US love for Pakistan . If Pakistan is in a mess, nobody else is responsible but Pakistanis themselves . Please do not blame India for all the evils leading to growth of Islamic fundamentalism , or Talibans or economic mess or rise of MQM .

Posted by Manish | Report as abusive

Manish,
Most of the following are my views, mostly collected from the sources which I trust is right . Ayub khan was actually egged on by Bhutto to infiltrate kashmir because he considered India was weak at that time. Why did he consider that India was weak?
The first reason is the over-confidence and some fool hardy beliefs. There is an old saying in Pakistan, ’Ten Indians are equivalent to one Pakistani Soldier’ .Many sepoys dumbly believed in those idiocy.
The second is Nehru’s India was militarily weak, instead of fighting China in 1962, India wanted American president JFK to intervene. But very unfortunately Nehru died in 1964 and L.B.Shastri had become the PM of India, so Pakistan misjudged that the current PM will also mostly defend rather than attack and that he will go begging after Soviet in case of a war .
The third and the most important reason is at that time Pakistani forces were technically superior compared to the out-of date Indian forces. I quote from the Indian express, “the Pakistani technology edge at that point was sweeping and could (should?) have been decisive. Its air force had operational supersonics (F-104 Starfighters) while the IAF was entirely subsonic. The PAF with its American Sidewinders was already in the missile age and more of its fighters were night-capable. Pakistan Navy had a submarine (Ghazi, sunk off Vizag in 1971) and the Indian Navy had none, it did not even have adequate sonars to detect it. Pakistan’s Pattons were the best tanks in the region, with night-vision capability, its special forces had the benefit of American training. Finally, the Pakistani generals certainly had more tactical dash, also because this war had been their idea, they had planned for it for at least a couple of years and, unlike India, they had a clear objective to grab Kashmir. For an entirely unprepared India, it was at best a defensive war”.
So for the adventurous Pakistanis ,they were not egged on by any nation ,it was their plan itself in the first place. They thought the US and China will help them in the long run. They started the war, the rest is history.
I again quote from the Indian express “Only when it seemed to be difficult to defend Kashmir in view of Pakistan’s near-breakthrough in Chhamb that Shastri decided to go on the offensive in Lahore and Sialkot. There, too, there was no real objective other than to carry out probing thrusts to force Pakistan to move forces away from the widening assault in Chhamb, and into defensive battles along Punjab.”
As far as USSR is concerned it did a very good job,trying to act like a big boss,but indeed a very good job-saved a lot of lives. Even though there were many Indian hawks trying to continue the war,I don’t think Shastri acted against his will,after all he is a Gandhian,isn’t he? But we must agree Pakistani sepoys who were willingly or unwillingly dragged into the war gave a very tough fight to secure their motherland from the advancing Indian forces. They did everything-even gave up their lives-to stop the Indian forces into entering Lahore,eventually most of them paid a price for their superior’s incompetency. So till today Pakistan celebrates Sep 6 as victory day not for Ayub or Bhutto but for the noble Sepoys.
Maybe Shastri’s heart attack was a coincidence,he might have been ill during the war itself,but Indians must have hidden the news(maybe the only truth censored by the Indians compared to the Pakistanis :) ) because it might have demoralized the forces.

Posted by mitchell | Report as abusive

Chirkut, Nikihil and Mitchell:
Yes 1965 war was stalemate but it was defeat of Pak hypothesis of the war: 1. since the defeat of India by China in 1962 (Chinese back stabbing) Pak had come to believe that Indian military would be unable or unwilling to defend against a quick military campaign in Kashmir, 2. perception that there was widespread popular support within for Pakistani rule and that the Kashmiri people were disatisfied with Indian rule and welcome Pak with open arms”

Neither of the above 2 turned out to be true.

Another neutral and good link is:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/w orld/war/indo-pak_1965.htm

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Manish,
I talked about why Pakistan started the war,but not on why Pakistan messed it up. My view is that if there was a single intelligent command in Pakistan at that time,today there would have been wonders. First of all there would have been no genocide in East Pakistan,Sheik Mujibur Rahman would have been the PM of Pakistan in 1970 and hence a ‘Bangladesh’ term wouldn’t have been coined at all. Some intelligent leader would have sparked series of non-violent protests in Kashmir-India can suppress violence brutally and efficiently but not peaceful protests,it is their own weapon.
Many of the Indians like to thrash Nehru for his incapability in handling border disputes .But I want to quote something from the opinion column in Dawn,which tells why Nehru was so important to India. I don’t think my Pakistani counterparts will like it.

“Why is Pakistan in such a precarious state at this time? There are many reasons for this. Of these three are particularly important. The first is the inability to develop a durable system of governance by laying the institutional foundation on which the structure of the state could be built. Second is the inability to come to terms with the structural problems that keep the economy excessively dependent on foreign largesse. Third is the absence of a foreign policy that could factor in the opportunities available to the country because of its location and not on the basis of fear of some immediate neighbours.

Leaders belonging to various Pakistani generations were so consumed with their quarrels that they did not turn their attention to the building of institutions. India, on the other hand, had the luxury of being led without interruptions of the kind for 17 years. Jawaharlal Nehru’s long rule resulted in the adoption of the constitution that provided a reasonable amount of security to most segments of the population and ensured respect for the constitution once he was no longer there.” by Shahid Javed Burki

Posted by mitchell | Report as abusive

Mitchell,

Thanks for your views, perhaps some of them I donot agree, especially your views or perhaps the quotations from Pak news papers about Nehru. In India, we think 1962 war with China was eye opener, a wake up call, slogans or idealism can win you false accolades but can not build nation or defend the country against marauding enemy ,perhaps this was one of the reason for Nehru’s death . Post 1962, India with its limited resources , launched drive to build a military to defend its borders, Nehru was slowly loosing its grip on power . After his death in 1964, there was an attempt to instal Indira Gandhi as the PM , but it was not acceptable to a large section of the then congressmen , some Nehru loyalist found Shastri, which was so far living under shadow of Nehru, considered a weak man , a Nehru crony, was installed as PM . I donot know which institution , you are talking about ? Nehru never built any institution , but at that time, Indian politicians were very powerful, nationalist politicians like Lohia , Morarji desai, etc for them national interest was supreme than personal interest, as such the institutions were built and created . Indira Gandhi learn t from mistakes of her father, and after coming to power, the first action she took was to sideline all the politicians who are opposed to her policies , she then started destroying all the institutions, the judiciary , the institution of President, when she appointed Fakhruddin Ahmed as President, etc. India survived because , there are still good people left in the country. From time to time attempt were made to promote dynastic policies, but due to its diversity and intelligence of Indian voters , such attempts could not succeed .

Reverting back to Indo-Pak relationship, what needs to be done ,this is very important especially the design of Pak army, ISI, and their associates , a host of terrorist organisations are hell bent to destabilise India , 26/11 is blatant example of this machinations. The most surprising is the Pak Govt’s attempt to shield them , why are they doing so, what is their objective ? What do these terrorist want ? Can India and Pakistan ever live in peace ? can we instead of spending billion on arms and ammunition , use this money for economic development, alleviation of poverty, eradication of child labour, to educate women rather than killing them in the name of some filmsy religion or quoting from some obscure book?

Posted by Manish | Report as abusive

“I donot know which institution , you are talking about ? Nehru never built any institution ,…..”- Posted by Manish

Manish:
Could not resist responding to above. while Nehru is known for his 1962 Indo-china war failure. He was big time into building strong infrastructure in Science and Technology. He set up the infrastrcuture on which India stands and is building uo today.

“He got together with people like Bhabha, Bhatnagar, Sarabhai, Krishnan and Mahalnobis to build the S and T infrastructure”

Thus Bhabha developed the nuclear industry–BARC

TIFR Bombay which he founded is today one of the prized assets of the country.

“Under him, Bhatnagar and Krishnan set up the CSIR chain of laboratories, more than 40 in number today, doing research from Aeronautics to Coconuts!”

The setting up of IITs

The space program under Sarabhai and Satish Dhawan- India’s pride in the form of ISRO.

The same goes for the efforts in the defense sector under Abdul Kalam

Bhakra –Nangal Project.
he said: “This dam has been built with the unrelenting toil of man for the benefit of mankind and therefore is worthy of worship. May you call it a Temple or a Gurdwara or a Mosque, it inspires our admiration and reverence”.

Built Chandigarh

The list goes on and those are his big acgievements and that’s what Pakistan did not do.

If you google, you’ll see a lot more info about Nehru’s such contributions.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Manish,

I don’t blame India for all evils…just some…like Mugambo in the movie, Mr.India (‘Mugambo Khush Hua’)! lol. No, I don’t blame India for the mess as many of the groups were created by Pakistanis NOT Indians, however India isn’t absolved from responsibility, as funding any separatist,terrorist or violent group is still contributing to instability (and we don’t do stuff like that, no, no…we’re worse!). That is my only stick. As you see my other posts I always put the onus on Pakistanis but I always like an acknowledgment of the same on the other side. Otherwise we will kidnap the Indian cricket team and force them to play a TEST series in Pakistan…this will ensure we kill the world with boredom! LOL. :P .

Mitchell, it wasn’t just the superiority ideology, it was also simply “get Kashmir”. As Bhutto believed and kissed up to and told Ayub, the army strong man, that India would never break International borders, which was proved false. The Pakistani Generals were NOT ready to fight India southwards. They may have been tactically better, but they were taken by surprise because of their false belief of Bhutto’s guarantee and lack of communication (the Pakistan air force marshall was clueless of Kashmir and had easier access to co-ordinate for a ceasefire with his Indian counterpart than with his own army,navy brothers when everything was going awry).

Rajeev, you make me cry! I don’t dispute your claim as its debatable. It is a draw because of its technicality. A good analogy is like in cricket…consider a Test match where it goes dark early. Though the batting side has/had no chance of getting the runs needed to win, it ends in a draw. That’s why Test Cricket sucks! :) However India would have won the war if it continued. It depends on where you stand.

You’re right about the tanks. Pakistan’s tanks were sophisticated but were abandoned due to a resilient Indian force which was not only due to numbers.

Chirkut, you’re right Grand Slam, was a failure. I don’t know how I mixed it up. Maybe I got carried away with the name or patriotism. That’s weird.

Thanks Mitchell for recognizing the brave Pakistani soldiers that did their utmost best to defend Pakistan. I don’t think the Pakistani people realize though how much the Superiors had screwed everybody and should be seething, like how the Americans seethe against the last regime, that these morons got so many people killed.

Mitchell, you’re right we weren’t always ignorant on our role in 1965. Its the newer generations who read the wrong texts who are clueless. And 1971 is taboo almost.

But don’t you guys get any funny ideas that other Pakistanis are going to debate it properly!! i.e. Pakistan Zindabad, India Murdabad, we kicked your ass in 1965, India wanted to invade us and sucked, etc etc. LOL. ;P :) Ah, ignorance is bliss…

Posted by Saf | Report as abusive

Oh Rajeev you mean ideologically when everything unfolded…well yea that’s evident how mistaken Pakistan was about support and operational theory and its execution. The whole thing was folly. Its just a question of who defeated who. Thing is Pakistan wasn’t defeated because they survived and hence the continuous false perception of invincibility.

Posted by Saf | Report as abusive

Rajeev’s right about Nehru’s love of infrastructure. He was very into ‘modernization’ through construction.

Posted by Saf | Report as abusive

Saf, Rajeev,

Saf, it seems first time I am reading you right, I also misunderstood for some cheap jingoism, but I admire your candidness in admitting that fault for present state of Pakistan lies with itself and its selfish leadership. The fact, which I fail to understand, why Pakistani leadership is bent upon shielding perpetrators of 26/11? India and Pakistan can ever live in peace, but the war or various acts of terrorism is the only solution ? can we forget our history ? can we forget taxilla or indus valley civilisation?

Rajeev,

I fully agree with you about various development projects undertaken during Nehru regime? But do you think it was only Nehru responsible for this ? No my friend, as I said at that point of time there were number nationalist and well meaning politicians and bureaucrats (unlike today) ,who were responsible for such acts , Nehru was a drunkard and womaniser , he was busy with his women and drinks ? Otherwise, instead of inheriting a bruised nation, the shape of our nation would have been entirely different . I repeat that Nehru was responsible behind fiasco about Tibet and kashmir .

Posted by Manish | Report as abusive

Mitchell is again overall right.

Just like to throw two pointers. Nehru bet on the wrong horse with communist Russia in the long term. Though a good history, Russia wasn’t exactly the innovative type country that even India is and it was remarkable how the friendship was strong considering the contrasts of their governments.

Unfortunately for us Jinnah died within a year. And Liaquat Ali Khan was assassinated. Then we suffered military coups undermining constitutions. There was nation building till the 60′s as Pakistan was considered an economic model by then. However Ayub Khan was brilliant in Agriculture and some manufacturing, everything else, not so much. And he totally fragmented the ethnicities forever in Pakistan, rigging the elections against Fatima Jinnah, of all people! And what can we say of the government overseeing ’71? War criminals? And nothing new since then as the country is running on Personalities NOT Processes.

I’m really learning alot from these conversations guys. Just upset I’m the only Pakistani around here to read it. And I’m really surprised by the views taken by Indians on China and the US. I think most Pakistanis don’t know the roles of the US,Russia and China that plays in Pakistan.

Posted by Saf | Report as abusive

Manish,
Yeah maybe you are right about Nehru. At that time any leader would have kept India stable.

You say to Rajeev,”The fact, which I fail to understand, why Pakistani leadership is bent upon shielding perpetrators of 26/11? India and Pakistan can ever live in peace” .
I just can’t control myself on commenting on this. The damage to the State had been done already by Zia-Ul-haq. Even if Zardari publicly announces that he wants to hang Lakhvi,do you think he will be able to do that? He just can’t. Only a human Right Activist like Ansar Burney can openly support India. Zardari and Gilani are just politicians and they can’t speak the truth risking their lives. I think Zardari said ‘India is not a threat to pakistan’ and I bet he himself was bewildered when the Indian media took his word for granted. Now i think Zardari won’t risk speaking to the Indian media anymore. :) A few months ago,I thought he will become a great leader and that he will guide South Asia,Can you believe that? Now I take back my opinion,he is just a kind of a corrupt leader you can find anywhere in the Subcontinent..

Posted by mitchell | Report as abusive

“Nehru was a drunkard and womaniser , he was busy with his women and drinks ? Otherwise, instead of inheriting a bruised nation, the shape of our nation would have been entirely different . I repeat that Nehru was responsible behind fiasco about Tibet and kashmir .”
- Posted by Manish

Manish: Yes he had all those negative qualities. These traits can be overblown—drinking or drunkard (???). I do not think it has anything to do with his role as a leader/policies. Clinton did Monica Lewinsky, but that does not make him a bad leader. My feeling about him is he was not cut out for shrewd politics for which as you mentioned India suffered in 1962 war. India needed to take care of national security and infrastucture devleopment right away. He focused only on the latter. He was an idealist, belived in co-existence with neighbors–not a shrewd leader. His lack of shrewdness and bad choice of chief of Army Staff (Kaul; peraphs Kashmiri Pundit connection) and not any focus on defense costed India 1962 war. That was embarassing. The reason was he was focusing on infrastructure and neglected defense. worse was his misreading of the Chinse. you might be knowing that India was offered UN permanant membership by USA in the time Taiwan/China issue was going on. Nehru said no and rather suggested China’s name bec. China is big brother he thought. So here we are asking for what nehru said No to–that was not smart. Tibet (you mean Lama shelter) is a humanitarian crisis issue and with the history of budhism, Nehru’s personality and considering it is none other than China in the picture, his decision is defendable. !962 was reason for his early death too. On Kashmir he announced UN invlovement plebiscite on the radio despite patel against that. Yes he could not forecast such things. Patel was better at that. But then you do not know Patel’s emphasis if he was to become a PM. After all everythigs costs money/time/men and India had to be judicious in making choices–imbalance can change the course.

Yes shadow planning was going on different projects much before 1947. But it is up to the leader for the focus. This is too naive to say that he was busy boozing and womanizing. It is widely believed and my view too that he wanted India to develop science and technology and develop infrastrucrure. You cannot take away that credit. Saying bacon-eating Zinnna or drunkard Nehru will not lessen their contributions, if they have.

Saf: I liked your dark clouds/cricket match explantion of 1965 war. My major point there was to talk about PVC Abdul Hamid in context of battle of tanks especially because his achievements were part of story in my school text book.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Saf,
“But don’t you guys get any funny ideas that other Pakistanis are going to debate it properly!!”

I am actually new to these kinds of blogs. Of course I know subcontinent’s history somewhat. I used to play with Disney videos and upload them on Youtube, the Mumbai attacks disturbed me very much and I started visting those kinda funny videos -India vs Pakistan army comparison,Pak police vs Indian police ,blah,blah,blah- worst kind of abuses really. One day i wrote a comment against Zia-Ul-Haq’s policy and got a rude retort by the uploader who immediately assumed me to be an Indian ” Remember how you Indians begged to us for mercy during 1965″ I took me a long time to realize what was wrong with him,and then only I started researching and visiting these(reuters) kind of blogs to search for the truth. I started to appreciate ‘Dawn’ and ‘the Hindu’.
Even here, Umair and Ali believe in the distorted version of 1965 :) Particularly when people speak garbage and lies,we can’t even appreciate when they speak the truth sometimes.

Posted by mitchell | Report as abusive

Nehru was a fool!

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

Jinnah was a lawyer,

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

Manmohan is an economist

Zardari is a commission agent (MR.10%)

where are the statesmen????

Posted by Anu | Report as abusive

The ones who are loathing Nehru – Both Nehru and Jinnah assumed their responsibilities at the same time and look where the two countries stand today. Whatever qualities he had were his personal, what he gave to India matters and that is what seperates us from the dismal state of Pakistan.

Posted by Aaruni Upadhyay | Report as abusive

To all those who hate Nehru,

Whatever faults Nehru had,Nehru never killed anyone directly.
Ayub khan killed a lot of our soldiers in the name of war. Yayha Khan massacred a million of our citizens and finally made them non-citizens. Zia-Ul-haq injected a slow poison called jihad into us . Vajpayee made a Nero when Gujarat was burning. Even your beloved Mr.Singh only concentrated on economy and forgot there is something called national Security.

Posted by pk | Report as abusive

The ones who are loathing Nehru – Both Nehru and Jinnah assumed their responsibilities at the same time and look where the two countries stand today. Whatever qualities he had were his personal, what he gave to India matters and that is what seperates us from the dismal state of Pakistan.

- Posted by Aaruni Upadhyay

But Nehru ruled for 17 yrs and Jinnah survived only 1-2 yrs.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Whatever qualities he had were his personal, what he gave to India matters
- Posted by Aaruni Upadhyay

-I agree but not many Indians will. Even Mahatma Gandhi is criticized.

Nehru was zero on National security for sure.

now we are here in the land of Senas and Dals(Shiv Ram Bajrang…..) who are admired as saviors of the culture and religion. I tell you have a poll today Nehru will lose.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

On Nehru and on early days of Independent India

If you ask me to rate early indian leaders i will take the following three names

Rating – 1: Sardar Vallabh bhai Patel – Rating
Reason: He was instrumental in bringing the warring independent states under the umbrella of India. Because of him we are still able to retain some part of Kashmir with India.Second reason is to create the Indian Administrative structure.
It is this administrative structure that keeps India running inspite of our leaders. (Yes, Like Paki’s most of our leaders are also corrupt and incompetent)
Rating 2: Lal Bahadur Shastri
Reason: A comparison of his achivement and his tenure tilts the scale towards him. He was the man behind green revolution in India. Another reason is the 1965.
Rating 3: Pt. Jawaharlal Nehru
Reason: He was instrumental in developing India’s non aligned foreign policy. Though he is given credit for T and S (Even IITs and IIScs), i think he did a good job encouraging people like Bhabha, bhatnagar etc. These are the people that developed T and S for India.
However Nehru failed in Kashmir. He opposed sending indian troops to Kashmir and when the troops started turning the table he went to UN and brough ceasefire.
He LIED to the nation and parliament about Chinese activities in Aksai Chin. His handling of this issue just falls short of treachory. The way he supported Kaul and VK Menon against overwhelming opposition can only be explained by favouritism and Nepotism. But as Rajeev said it could be his naivette. All in all his contributions to india is a mixed bag

Posted by chirkut | Report as abusive

If i remember correctly both Jinnah and Nehru were lawyers by profession.

This reminds me of another theory(conspiracy?) going around on Jinnah. Both Jinnah and Nehru wanted to become Head of the independent state.(Jinnah was with congress for sometime before joining muslim league.) When he realized that he had no future in Congress he joined Muslim league and started demanding Independent Muslim state so that he can become her head of state. Just before independence he was diagonosed with stomach cancer and it becase clear that he would not live long enough to enjoy the new state. So he gave away the reigns of Pakistan to Liaquat Ali.
On the other side Nehru’s aspirations to become PM shot down by congress when they votes to side with Mr Patel instead of Mr Nehru. However on Mr Gandhi’s request Mr Patel bowed out of race leaving the “Kursi” for Mr Nehru.

Posted by chirkut | Report as abusive

Simon and et al,
Well here is a twist… Hope holbrooke must include Bangladesh in his agenda :P

Investigators see Bangladesh link in Mumbai terror attacks
http://www.dawn.com/2009/02/05/top2.htm

Posted by Blogger | Report as abusive

“Investigators see Bangladesh link in Mumbai terror attacks
http://www.dawn.com/2009/02/05/top2.htm”

This is hilarious !

Its going like a nonsense bollywood movie so many twists and turns. Nobody knows who runs Pakistan, Political govt got a whip from ISI when they requested the chief for “go to India”, then they sacked Durrani for speaking truth, Then they said it was non-state actors, Finally after investigation :-) they are blaming Bangladesh for it.

If Bangladesh responds they will blame “Somalian Pirates”. And after getting response from Somalia probably they will accuse “Pirates of Caribbean” for Mumbai attacks. Where is this investigation going, Please tell me ? anybody ?

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive

– Wonder if Chinese, Mongolians, Bhutanese, Burmese, Nepalese were look alike Pakistani and Bangladeshi.. hopefully we would have seen some more twists…

Blaming Around the world for Brutal party :P

Posted by Blogger | Report as abusive

@Punjabiyaar,
–short and simple “jab geedad (Pakistan) ki maut aati hai to woh sheher (Bangladesh) ki taraf bhagta hai” :P

Posted by Blogger | Report as abusive

Oh Rajeev you mean ideologically when everything unfolded…well yea that’s evident how mistaken Pakistan was about support and operational theory and its execution. The whole thing was folly. Its just a question of who defeated who. Thing is Pakistan wasn’t defeated because they survived and hence the continuous false perception of invincibility.
–posted by Saf on 1965.

Saf: Back to 1965, perhaps for the last time :-) Yes ideologically. Any ways your last sentence reminds me of VP debate between Sarah Palin and Joe Biden. Knowing how bad is her knowledge about the issues, the bar of her success was set so low that even when she barely survived that debate, republicans sighed with relief with little smile on the lips as if she had won it. She “survived and hence the continuous false perception of invincibility” is carrying her towards 2012 elections.
:-)

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Yes, exactly like Joe Biden and Sarah Palin. lol.
Good analogy, Rajeev.

Posted by Saf | Report as abusive

Nice theory, Chirkut. However, Jinnah was offered to be head of state as PM by Gandhi. It was shot down.

Posted by Saf | Report as abusive

yes Gandhi did offer PMship to Jinnah to pacify his aspirations. It was shot down by Congress, most particularly by Mr Nehru and hence this theory.
Again this theory could be totally wrong. But it does provide an interesting insight into the power struggle between different factions and forces during the British Raj.

Posted by chirkut | Report as abusive

Mr Holbrooke’s visit was pretty good. He listened to Pakistanis, and then will go back and formulate policy after consultations. The Democrats should not repeat the mistakes of the past when they stole F-16′s from Pakistan and put sanctions on the country.