What does Pakistan want from U.S. envoy Holbrooke ?

January 30, 2009

Former Pakistan ambassador to London and Washington Maleeha
Lodhi has given a taste of what Richard Holbrooke can expect when
he makes his maiden visit to Islamabad next week in his new role as
President Barack Obama’s special envoy to Pakistan and
Afghanistan.

She may have owed her diplomatic career to General Pervez Musharraf,  but being an ex-official does not mean she has lost touch.

Writing in The News, the paper she used to edit, Lodhi listed an eight-point agenda for Pakistan as it braces for Holbrooke, a diplomat with a reputation for playing hardball.

Lines have to be drawn to make the United States respect Pakistani sovereignty and understand the limits of cooperation, Lodhi writes in an opinion piece titled “Back to the Future”.

Here’s the Pakistani agenda as she sees it :
1. U.S. missile attacks on Pakistani territory should end.
2. Assistance under the Biden-Luger bill should be offered
with no strings attached.
3. Give Pakistan helicopters, night vision, radar to fight a counter-insurgency, it doesn’t need conventional arms from America.
4. Give Pakistan a break in trade agreements. The all- important textile industry needs a lifeline.
5. Make India part of the equation for stabilising Kashmir, by recognising Pakistan’s security concerns on its eastern border.
6. The United States should reshape its Afghan policy to take into account Pakistan’s security concerns, otherwise no strategy will work.
7. Pakistan must also tell the United States that sending more troops to Afghanistan without a change in strategy will backfire.
8. Policies to stabilise Afghanistan should not end up destabilising Pakistan. The Taliban should be prised away from al Qaeda, and a reconciliation process with the Taliban begun.

President Asif Ali Zardari in an op-ed piece for the Washington Post also covered some of that ground, urging the new U.S. administration to boost both military and non-military aid to help Pakistan fight extremists. “Give us the tools and we will get the job done,” he wrote.

And he made clear too he expected Holbrooke to work with both Pakistan and India on the issue of Kashmir, although as special envoy for Afghanistan and Pakistan, India was technically not part of his remit.

 ”Much as the Palestine issue remains the core obstacle to peace in the Middle East, the question of Kashmir must be addressed in some meaningful way to bring stability to the region,” Zardari said.

Reasonable expectations of a sovereign nation ? Or is the time for expectations over ?

[Pics of Richard Holbrooke and a protest in Karachi against U.S. missile strikes in the northwest]

Comments

…Well it SHOULD be on his agenda because the only way to solve Afghanistan is through resolution of Kashmir first…

When did Kashmir went towards Afghanistan Border? East met West? wow…

Posted by Blogger | Report as abusive
 

Umair,

You’re behavior was horrid. I’m more interested on how we carry ourselves in replies. I do care about what Afghan or any of the Indian posters may have said. Some of the comments do upset me, however you’re reply was horrible.

You’ve been rude and have lacked objectivity from what I’ve observed in my short time on Reuters. This is what you’ve said.

“Sometimes it is emotion which takes over reason. One has to be passionate about anything one does. I feel the same way about love of my country and expressing it passionately.”

No, you’re swear post was not patriotic. Sometimes these emotions can become permanent for the minds of the vicious. That is the case of ultra-nationalists in the history of the world. Passion without Reason is Fanaticism. These are the same examples of passions the world sees in regards to Pakistan and wonder where’s the reason.

I really hope you’re a teenager, who’s messing around, though that really shouldn’t be an excuse for criticizing many of you’re wrong beliefs.

Posted by Saf | Report as abusive
 

To add to the list of Global watcher:

The torture of Frontier Gandhi Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan (pashthun from NWFP). He was a devout Muslim and associate of Mahatma Gandhi; opened schools and brought women out of their homes to become a part of society. HE HAD 100,000 MUSLIMS LAY DOWN THEIR ARMS AND THE ARMY WAS CALLED “KHUDAI KHIMATGARS” (“SERVANTS OF GOD”).

His last words to Gandhi and his erstwhile allies in the Congress party were: “You have thrown us to the wolves.”(i.e.Pakistan). Well Pakistan proved him right by killing thousand of “Khudai Khimatgars” and also imprisoned Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan after partition for 2 decades and tortured. This is what he said after coming out of pak prison “I had to go to prison many a time in the days of the Britishers. Although we were at loggerheads with them, yet their treatment was to some extent tolerant and polite. But the treatment which was meted out to me in this Islamic state of ours was such that I would not even like to mention it to you.”

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

Rajeev,
..The balls and Brain..
The Balls with Taliban support and the Brain with China and IMF Support.

First let them come out of IMF clutches the we will see the balls aside and the brain under drain.

Posted by Blogger | Report as abusive
 

Saf,
Sometimes these emotions can become permanent for the minds of the vicious.

eg: Terrorists and the Human Bomb Factories…

Posted by Blogger | Report as abusive
 

Chirkut
Its about time your doubts about Pakistan’s survival should be over. For us its a matter to thrive, we certainly have survived the 65-71 wars and soviet occupation war in Afghanistan during 80s, the era of nuclear parity with India is now a reality. Yes, I admit we need to build a strong economy to ensure our country remains strong. Its only a few barking dogs that cant see Pakistan thrive and question its survival.

Saf
You are right, i should not have resorted to swearing and abuses, but it was Afghan who has provoked me. This guy Afghan does not post his real name, who the hell is he to swear Pakistan and say “Death to Pakistan”. Well long live Pakistan shall indeed and such remarks will be replied. As well as any actions to harm Pakistan take place, they will be responded with equal force.

OPEN CHALLENGE TO AFGHAN: COME OUT IN OPEN KID AND POST YOUR REAL NAME IF YOU HAVE COURAGE. DONT HIDE LIKE A COWARD IF YOU ARE TRUE WHATEVER YOU STATE WHY HIDE YOUR NAME?

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Rajeev,

Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan, was indeed a good mention. It brought a smile to my face.

Though he was initially anti-Pakistan, he wasn’t the trouble maker that the oppressive leadership had made everyone believe. He was very pro-Pashtun not a separatist and those rare good qualities of good leaders.

His grandson is currently running the Awami National Party in Pakistan.

I really appreciate the knowledge you had of him Rajeev. Most people unfortunately do not.

Posted by Saf | Report as abusive
 

Blogger wrote:
“Sometimes these emotions can become permanent for the minds of the vicious.

eg: Terrorists and the Human Bomb Factories…”

Let me clarify you, terrorists will be the last people who have any emotions. Terrorists are cold blooded killers. It is the emotional people that are led to do the most constructive things for their nation or for humanity.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Rajeev

While I stated “death to Afghanistan NARCO_STATE” not Afghanistan as a whole. Let me tell you Afghanistan is a landlocked country and we have always provided them transit trade facility. Pakistan provided shelter to millions of Afghan refugees in 80s during soviet war, prostitution, drugs and AK-47s is all we got as a result of soviet occupation of Afghanistan.
Pakistan and its people have nothing against Afghanistan. Pakistani concerns that India is using Afghanistan as a base for anti-Pakistan activities and destablization of Baluchistan and North west Pakistan. I hope this is wrong. I have stated many times before that Pakistan-India-Afghanistan stability is interlinked. Unless our three countries come together the mistrust will never go and there will be no progress. We will keep fighting proxy wars and our generations to come will not have a bright future. Why do you think that the military establishment in Pakistan has not turned its full strength against millitant elements in north-west? because they still think India as enemy no. 1. India might want to take an initiative to jump start the peace process and make meaningful progress. We need more solutions and less problems. Hurling abuses and accusations at each other is not helping anyone on this blog. Did the war of words between the governments of India and Pakistan after Mumbai attacks help anyone? Did India succeed to isolate Pakistan diplomatically?

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Umair,

I’m glad you agreed with me.

However its not reasonable to call Afghan to a Capital worded Post fight. It is the right of every user here to choose whether to display their name or username. It is a privacy issue.

You are still upset and want another go at him. Calm down and cool off. Try to avoid each other.

There are positive emotions and negative emotions. Emotions that lead to constructive behavior and emotions that lead to destructive behavior. We agree terrorists use aggression. Aggression comes from aggressive behavior triggered from emotional anger. Destructive behavior is also evident in Mob behavior when there’s a Strike or a large protest that goes unruly. Many times those protesters who are caught and asked why they broke windows or did such and such act of vandalism, they reply they were just emotional,passionate or moved by the moment. The difference between them and a peaceful protest is that both are passionate however one has kept reason the other has not.

I’m glad you’re recent posts are much calmer and reasoned. Please keep that up, and don’t get bugged by aggressive criticism or responses. Thanks.

Posted by Saf | Report as abusive
 

Thank you Saf
I wish we have people like you in majority in Pakistan.
If Pakistan stops using terrorism to further its policies and stick to Gandhian principles of non-violent protest, things will cool down in both neighbors of Pakistan. And believe me people will lend a far better ear to Pakistan. Till then things will go the way they are going now.

Posted by chirkut | Report as abusive
 

@Umair

Afghan is just jealous because he knows how poor & backward his society is.Even BEFORE the war,in the late 70s,Afghanistan had a literacy rate of 6%…the vast majority of their population were a bunch of filthy,illiterate mongrels who continuously scratch their heads like monkeys.
They are also prone to abusing Pakistan because of how looked down upon they are in Pakistani society…usually they are garbage pickers & beggars on our streets.

Posted by Qasim | Report as abusive
 

To all Indians concerned,

I wish you all well because you lot have a wonderful country which is doing very well for itself. As a Pakistani,its in our enlightened interest to have good relations with our southern neighbour. So even though we have issues to resolve,lets resolve them amicably & not get bogged down in costly confrontations.

Posted by Qasim | Report as abusive
 

Is Ms Lodhi a diplomat or extortionist? This list looks like a list from Somali pirates. :) Why everybody in Pakistan is like this. Looks like they are standing on a cliff and putting conditions rescuers for help.

Posted by Amy | Report as abusive
 

@chirkut

Thank you for offering your opinion on Pakistan…we have it in our interest to have good relations with your country & also eradicate T-ism and E-ism in our society. So lets ignore the role of RAW/ISI in regional tensions & focus on the positives.
The positives include such things as the election of secular political parties to power in all four Pakistani provinces, who do not believe in mixing Islam with politics.Pakistanis had given the military the boot in that election, & have now elected a government which desires peace in the region.

Posted by Qasim | Report as abusive
 

Here is an article I have copied & pasted:

Mohammed Hanif, the brilliant author of the engrossing book “The Case of Exploding Mangoes” (I have been planning to write about it ever since I first read it many months ago; and I will) – known to many for his stint at Herald before he joined BBC’s Urdu Service – has just written a most cogent and readable op-ed in The Times of India which is wroth reading; whether you agree with it or not. It is a good argument as well as a good read. And I say that even thought there are more than one points here that I might quibble with. But before we quibble, lets give Mohammed Hanif the floor – and a full and proper hearing. Here is the op-ed he wrote in The Times of India, in full:

Ten Myths About Pakistan

By Mohammed Hanif

Living in Pakistan and reading about it in the Indian press can sometimes be quite a disorienting experience: one wonders what place on earth they’re talking about? I wouldn’t be surprised if an Indian reader going through Pakistani papers has asked the same question in recent days. Here are some common assumptions about Pakistan and its citizens that I have come across in the Indian media.

1. Pakistan controls the jihadis: Or Pakistan’s government controls the jihadis. Or Pakistan Army controls the jihadis. Or ISI controls the jihadis. Or some rogue elements from the ISI control the Jihadis. Nobody knows the whole truth but increasingly it’s the tail that wags the dog. We must remember that the ISI-Jihadi alliance was a marriage of convenience, which has broken down irrevocably. Pakistan army has lost more soldiers at the hands of these jihadis than it ever did fighting India.

2. Musharraf was in control, Zardari is not: Let’s not forget that General Musharraf seized power after he was fired from his job as the army chief by an elected prime minister. Musharraf first appeased jihadis, then bombed them, and then appeased them again. The country he left behind has become a very dangerous place, above all for its own citizens. There is a latent hankering in sections of the Indian middle class for a strongman. Give Manmohan Singh a military uniform, put all the armed forces under his direct command, make his word the law of the land, and he too will go around thumping his chest saying that it’s his destiny to save India from Indians. Zardari will never have the kind of control that Musharraf had. But Pakistanis do not want another Musharraf.

3. Pakistan, which Pakistan? For a small country, Pakistan is very diverse, not only ethnically but politically as well. General Musharraf’s government bombed Pashtuns in the north for being Islamists and close to the Taliban and at the same time it bombed Balochs in the South for NOT being Islamists and for subscribing to some kind of retro-socialist, anti Taliban ethos. You have probably heard the joke about other countries having armies but Pakistan’s army having a country. Nobody in Pakistan finds it funny.

4. Pakistan and its loose nukes: Pakistan’s nuclear programme is under a sophisticated command and control system, no more under threat than India or Israel’s nuclear assets are threatened by Hindu or Jewish extremists. For a long time Pakistan’s security establishment’s other strategic asset was jihadi organisations, which in the last couple of years have become its biggest liability.

5. Pakistan is a failed state: If it is, then Pakistanis have not noticed. Or they have lived in it for such a long time that they have become used to its dysfunctional aspects. Trains are late but they turn up, there are more VJs, DJs, theatre festivals, melas, and fashion models than a failed state can accommodate. To borrow a phrase from President Zardari, there are lots of non-state actors like Abdul Sattar Edhi who provide emergency health services, orphanages and shelters for sick animals.

6. It is a deeply religious country: Every half-decent election in this country has proved otherwise. Religious parties have never won more than a fraction of popular vote. Last year Pakistan witnessed the largest civil rights movements in the history of this region. It was spontaneous, secular and entirely peaceful. But since people weren’t raising anti-India or anti-America slogans, nobody outside Pakistan took much notice.

7. All Pakistanis hate India: Three out of four provinces in Pakistan – Sindh, Baluchistan, NWFP – have never had any popular anti-India sentiment ever. Punjabis who did impose India as enemy-in-chief on Pakistan are now more interested in selling potatoes to India than destroying it. There is a new breed of al-Qaida inspired jihadis who hate a woman walking on the streets of Karachi as much as they hate a woman driving a car on the streets of Delhi. In fact there is not much that they do not hate: they hate America, Denmark, China CDs, barbers, DVDs , television, even football. Imran Khan recently said that these jihadis will never attack a cricket match but nobody takes him seriously.

8. Training camps: There are militant sanctuaries in the tribal areas of Pakistan but definitely not in Muzaffarabad or Muridke, two favourite targets for Indian journalists, probably because those are the cities they have ever been allowed to visit. After all how much training do you need if you are going to shoot at random civilians or blow yourself up in a crowded bazaar? So if anyone thinks a few missiles targeted at Muzaffarabad will teach anyone a lesson, they should switch off their TV and try to locate it on the map.

9. RAW would never do what ISI does: Both the agencies have had a brilliant record of creating mayhem in the neighbouring countries. Both have a dismal record when it comes to protecting their own people. There is a simple reason that ISI is a bigger, more notorious brand name: It was CIA’s franchise during the jihad against the Soviets. And now it’s busy doing jihad against those very jihadis.

10. Pakistan is poor, India is rich: Pakistanis visiting India till the mid-eighties came back very smug. They told us about India’s slums, and that there was nothing to buy except handicrafts and saris. Then Pakistanis could say with justifiable pride that nobody slept hungry in their country. But now, not only do people sleep hungry in both the countries, they also commit suicide because they see nothing but a lifetime of hunger ahead. A debt-ridden farmer contemplating suicide in Maharashtra and a mother who abandons her children in Karachi because she can’t feed them: this is what we have achieved in our mutual desire to teach each other a lesson.

So, quibble if you will. But do tell us what you think about the argument that Hanif is making.

Posted by Qasim | Report as abusive
 

@ Qasim
Here is my responce of Mr Hanif’s 10 points

1. It doesn’t matter! The truth is at the end of day india is getting burnt by terrorism. If dog can’t control the tail then allow us to tie the tail for the dog.

2. In india, Army cannot swap barracks for President house. India very ferouciously guard her democracy. Indira gandh’s Emergency era is a testament.
Pakistanis have to do the same. They need to cut down their Army to size to make democractic leadership strong and then make them accountable.

3. Every country is diverse with different ideologies. Pakis need to respect the differences and gaurd against hatred mongers. They alone can help themselves

4. In India dog firmly control its tail. Which as per your addmittance is not with Pakistan. That increases the probablity

5. VJ DJ and festival has nothing to do with failed state. A state is failed when its writ is not applicable in its own land. As per your own admission the tail is wagging the dog

6. There is nothing bad in being religious. But at the same time we have to learn to respect other religions. By that yardstick India is also not completely perfect. But then Pakistan has a lot more ground to cover.
Election outcomes depend not only on religion but also on a lot of other factors. Religious parties might not have won this time but they can win in the future. Elections are not a strong indicators.You need to tame the mullahs and hate mongers.

7. India is not dealing with Sindh, Baluchistan or NWFP but Pakistan. Pakistan is ruled by punjabis. So even if Sindh, Baluchistan, NWFP – have never had any popular anti-India sentiment ever has not affected the outcome.

8. Pakistan has never accepted Kashmiri terrorist as terrorists. Its still in denail mode. India has suffcient evidence of terrorist camps in Muridke and Muzaffarabad.Where was JuD based out of? Recent bomb blasts in India by terrorist cannot happen without training. Certainly not 26/11. Missile attacks are not to teach anyone a lesson. They are for destroying infrastrucutre of terror.

9. Even if i agree on RAW’s activity in Pakistan, the truth is that RAW is still in tight control of Indian Govt. ISI is virtually goverment unto itself and always protected its power by raising the India bogeyman. For a stable pakistan both ISI and Army has be reigned in control by the govt.

10. True that both India and PAkistan are poor but at the same time Indian economy is still rapidly growing. Indians are pulling out more people out of povery each year. While Pakistan’s economy is in shambles and because of that possibly more Pakistanis are made poor each year. Believe me when I say that till 26/11 more Indians were more occupied with chandrayan(Indian Moon mission) than pakistan. 26/11 came as a rude reminder to us that no matter how much we progress untill we eradicate terrorism we cannot live in peace. All our progress will be in vain.

Posted by chirkut | Report as abusive
 

@Qasim
Again my response to those 10 points is not to hit back on you.
I sincerely hope that Pakistan mend her ways and become a more inclusive and peaceful democracy.

Posted by chirkut | Report as abusive
 

On saif’s “Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan, was indeed a good mention. It brought a smile to my face…..”
——Thanks. I remembered of KAG Khan the day Taliban announced “no education to women” and other anti-women policies because Khan did just the opposite. I appreciate your help in cooling down the bloggers.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

No matter which couuntry in History, when it was invaded and occupied, the native population always resisted. This is the case in Afghanistan.
This “war on terror” is a war of terror carried out by one of the most nasty ideologies in mankinds history. They have a unhealthy hate for islam no matter what form. These so called crusaders, no other word comes to mouth, have mass murdered over a million men women and children in iraq, mass murdered 10′s of thousands in Afghanistan, and still they bark like rabid dogs “terrorist” terrorist”. Muslims need to start respecting themselves and speak up when a single man woman or child is killed by these badits and thugs, but no they let them carry on, 15 killed there, 20 there, whole village wiped out.
You may be poor but do not live like Dogs beneath the feet of these disgusting evil thungs, whose only God is greed , money and power.
If the Pakistani public was to have a say in this.
They would tell USA/UK and all the other crminals to Go to hell, we will not kill anymore innocent people for your money or bullying, you will not kill any more innocent people. Stand up to them, they have always been cowards throughout history, never fighting for a cause unless it was a financial benefit, they are the same cowards who in history passed tried to do the same thing,but got defeated. They will be defeated again, because they are NOT the GOOD GUYS, and never will be

Posted by Rabbani | Report as abusive
 

Maleeha Lodhi is following the same path taken by her mentor Musharraf , when asked for his support for war against terror, he gave his wish list, which included military and financial aid , more than a sum of USD 10b has been given as aid to Pakistan, it is being debated in every forum in US establishment about how the aid was used to buy arms and ammunition to fight India . It is even an admitted position of US govt about the utilization of this aid. While talking about Kashmir, she has forgotten that kashmir issue has been for one and all settled between India and Pakistan in Shimla Agreement in July,1972 following humiliating defeat of Pakistan in war against India in 1971, Kashmir is no longer relevant . Perhaps Ms Lodhi has forgotten , Pakistan has imposed 3 wars on India and in all these 3 wars , Pakistan had to suffer humiliating defeat , it is historically proven fact that India has neither launched direct or indirect wars or ever posed any threat to Pakistan, how long the Pakistan politicians will mislead about an imaginative threat from India ?
Mr Hanif is a respected journalist , while writing his article in Times of India, he forgot during the last 10 years , India has achieved impressive growth of 10 % , we are building our own satelite, CHANDRAYAAN is a living proof of India’s technical and economic success . Mr Hanif has very conveniently omitted to mention that Govt of India is making every attempt to stop the suicide by the farmers , which is indeed a national shame.
Mr Hanif’s mention about RAW and its indulgence in saboteur activities in Pakistan makes a very interesting observation, for us in India, such observations by people like Mr Hanif makes us proud of our security agencies, but post 26/11 , this bluff has been exposed, RAW or any other Indian security agencies have failed to provide security or necessary intelligence inputs in India, it is absolutely ridiculous to suggest RAW’s involvement in Pakistan or elsewhere . RAw can’t protect Indians , let alone carry out espionage activities against Paksitan .
Mr Hanif’s suggestion about ISI and its involvement with jehadis , Talibans or Al-Queda , this is not the creation of Indian media but the truth is before the whole world , in fact, US intel agencies from time to time have been divulging that ISI and Pakistan Army is actively involved in not only providing training to these jehadi and fedayeen but also provide all the material and logistical support .
To put the record state, the whole world knows the truth that Pakistan is not only terrorist hub but it is a breeding ground of terrorists . The priority before Richard Holbrooks should be to ask Pakistan in no uncertain terms :
a) First tame ISI and Pak Army ,stop them from providing terrorist training, destroy all the terrorist infrastructure
b) Get complete account for US aid , whether it has been used to buy arms and ammunition to fight India
c) Ensure ISI and Pak Army to to stop all kind terrorist activities against India
d) Tie all US aid and IMF loan with conditions such as the money can not be used for military purposes, only can be used for development purposes
e) To find out ways and means to take control of all the nuclear arsenals to prevent it from falling in wrong hands

Mr Hanif, if you are reading this, my humble suggestion is that the state of Pakistan or its tag as a failed state or a rogue state or merchant of death , is not the creation of Indian media , but the whole world adresses Pakistan with all these superlatives . Please donot blame India or Indian media for the ills in Pakistan . While writing about Indian muslim and its treatment in India or Kashmir, please take notice that India is home for the second largest muslim population in the world , they constitute about 20% of India’s population , they are capable of taking care of themselves, they have not authorized Pakistan or anybody to advocate or champion their causes .

Mr Hanif , poverty , illiteracy , are the biggest enemy of both India and Paksitan, you would definitely do a great service to the entire humanity and muslim world in particular, if you write about the ways and means to alleviate them , instead of writing about Indo-Pask differences or Kashmir issues .

Ms Lodhi , you and your mentor Musharraf would also have done humanity a favour, if you had said in your wish list about economic development, alleviation of poverty, women right etc.

Posted by Manish | Report as abusive
 

Thank you Chirkut and Rajeev for the kind words.

“They are also prone to abusing Pakistan because of how looked down upon they are in Pakistani society…usually they are garbage pickers & beggars on our streets.”
- Posted by Qasim

Qasim, you missed to analyze a sentence. ‘Looking down’ upon them in Pakistani society. Why do we do that? “They are garbage pickers and beggars on our streets”. Why? Is this not the sign of mistreatment? A sign of haplessness of refugees in our country.

I don’t know how old you are, but if u remember the Bosnian war, some Bosnians were taken in as refugees in Pakistan in the 90′s. To our embarrassment, some months living in Pak (Karachi, I believe), they demanded to be sent back to Bosnia even though it was a war zone, as they couldn’t live by in Pakistan. What are the chances those refugees had cursed us and their lack of opportunities? Should we just call them jealous and wave off the criticism or actually be concerned for the welfare of all those living in Pakistan and do something about it?

This stereotype of Afghanis begging in Pakistan is also untrue. In fact we had our local urban citizens complain that many Afghanis had done extremely well in local businesses cornering the markets and jobs. This led to resentment from our own people as there were no systems to naturalize Afghani refugees and there was no monitor on taxes, business licenses, jobs, etc. Though these problems cannot be blamed on Afghanis who are simply trying to make the best living and rather the State’s fault in recognizing the ground realities.

Currently there’s another refugee crisis of internal displacement. Islamabad is now the hottest refugee destination for people coming from Swat, Bajaur and Mohamadan Regencies, etc. How many of these people from the autonomous regions are probably cursing us or our govt for their lack of opportunities?

We can’t brush things off as ‘jealousy’. Is that not the same excuse the Americans use to try to grasp what happened on 9/11 and fail to re-examine their roles in the world (who are now realizing)?

We must realize our biases externally and internally to improve ourselves and re-ignite friendships if we want to move forward. Hope this helps. Thanks.

Posted by Saf | Report as abusive
 

Umair,
Thanks for the response and your willingness to discuss the issues.

You said: “While I stated “death to Afghanistan NARCO_STATE” not Afghanistan as a whole”
—-I understand that you might not be meaning that. But the statement still targets Afghanistan-the country- and no self-respecting citizen likes that, neither you nor I.

On Pak India roles in helping Afghanistan and India’s role in destabilizing of Baluchistan and North west Pakistan:
—– India’s interests in Afghanistan is heavy reconstruction/development programme for the stability of Afghanistan using a non-military strategy (same as you said). The Indian force there is ITBP. The ultimate goal of USA/NATO Pak war on terror Afghanistan/Pakis is not only military affensive but requires stabilization of war–torn Afghanistan. No one did that. Not USA, not USSR, Pak is also not doing and Taliban in power was least interested other than ruling and punishing people. Understandably, if pak sees India as #1 enemy, this would be concern to Pak. If Pak does not feel so, India’s role in Afghanistan will do a lot for Pakistan-India-Afghanistan stability. If India were to destabilize Pak, India does not have to get into all this drama of re-building Afghanistan. No one sees that Afghanistan needs to built, not just bombed. Cold War and subsequent events led to destabilization of the region. I understand positive Pak role as you mentioned, some of it is Pak control and some not. Not to discredit but to put in proper persepctive, it is a refugee problem—like the way it happens in India/Bangladesh case. India cannot completely stop it but still fact of the matter is India is helping B.Desh refugees many ways. It will be unreasonable to say that Pak (ISI) did not play negative role in destabilization of the region—continuous support of Taliban (until today perhaps, hope not). The roles of CIA and ISI in that are established beyond doubt now (Taliban). I also hope that India is not doing any activities such as destablization of Baluchistan and North west Pakistan. To me, Pak fear arises more out of insecurity and perhaps in the wrong belief that stable Afghanistan will start voicing its demands that might destabilize pak. In the end countries do play little games specially those which the enemy (Pak, China for India) see as credible threat, not necessarily directly hurting. I see no problem in that if all the approaches are along the defensive (not destabilize or any other offensive) lines, and India is doing that only. Pak and China doing that too.
I absolutely agree with you that serious diplomatic efforts are necessary. I do think that India-Pak relations will not improve unless there are serious positive bilateral talks. But the problem with India right now (like many in the world) is its confusion about who rules Pak. It is not easy to diplomatically isolate a country like Pakistan, considering its geo-political value to the powers. But the sad question is why there is a need to do that and the answer lies in 61 yrs of experience. Mumbai case is just one dot on the graph.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

Qasim:
I do not have enough time to type but Manish has nicely covered many points.

I will just say that the Mr. Hanif’s article was somewhat useful, but mostly quite superficial. Several feelings about Pak are shared by media outside India too. I am also wondering is he more eligible to talk about the safety of nuclear weapons than the members of the commission who have prepared a report on WMDs with a special section “Pakistan: The Intersection of Nuclear Weapons and Terrorism” Click below:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/librar y/report/2008/wmd-prolif-terror-commissi on2-02.htm

Finding poverty (and other negatives) in India as source of Pakistan’s satisfaction is setting a low bar to begin with and his emphasis on this is not motivating Pakistanis.

Above all when such defensive articles “Myths and….” start appearing it kind of shows the situation is serious.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

Indians here are well-mannered compared to the Pakistanis. Let us not forget this is a reuters blog,some day they may publish our shameful blog war-they may mention the language we use- in some European Newspapers I request Umair and Ali to take a leaf out of Saf’s and Quasim’s book and not to bring shame to our nation. Let us not abuse members or use sexually embarrassing comments.

Jugnu Mohsin ,the Pakistani activist who had been on a Peace mission had just returned from India. She spoke exclusively to the Daily Times Monitor.

Jungu Mohsin said she had confirmed that Ajmal Kasab – the only surviving Mumbai gunman – belonged to Fareed Kot. “We should not have hidden these facts,” she said, because that would create doubts in India. “This was not the way to deal these issues,” she said.

Sensible statement at sensitive times. We Pakistanis and Indians have our own faults. But instead of bickering with each other,let us face the harsh reality-We are poor and let us not pour fuel on fundamentalist flames.

Posted by pk | Report as abusive
 

“Assistance under the Biden-Luger bill should be offered with no strings attached”

AMAZING!!!! Why so?

Begging with an attitude.

On the contrary. Donors would shell out money and meanwhile Pakistan army and ISI will continue terrorism all around, no one should ask about it!!

 

What evidence do we in Pakistan have that the Ajmal Kassab in our records is the same Ajmal Kassab in Indian custody? Is it right for us to be skeptical? Sure it is our right. Is it possible that Kassab could be a Pakistani who has been used for the Mumbai attack? Sure it is possible. If a respectable figure like Colin Powell could go to UNSC in Feb 2003 and show fake pictures of Iraqi WMD ‘vans’ and sites and mobile labs in order to justify attacking Iraq, anything is possible. This is why Jugnu Mohsin’s argument is hogwash. She’s free to sympathize with the Indian government all she wants. That’s not how the business of international relations is conducted. If the Americans can ditch Pakistan after defeating the Soviets, it is Pakistan’s right to exact as much price as possible for cleaning up the mess that others left behind. Meanwhile, India must not be allowed to exploit Afghan soil to send saboteurs to Pakistan, in a repeat of what New Delhi did back in the 1970s with the help of the Soviets.

 

Ahmed,

There’s overwhelming evidence that Kasab is Pakistani. Our own media and our own agencies had come to that conclusion. And if this wasn’t the case, then why on earth did our government finally admit it? Are they lying too as well on the identity? Lying again? What is the truth?

This isn’t like the Iraq war, where there were many skeptics and purposely faulty intelligence. There is a living captive. There is the scene of the crime. There is a village from where he hails from. And MOST important of all were the strong media investigations. All investigated including the confusion of his NADRA identity which at the end was hogwash. There’s also information by the media (including ours) on the other men, however, they have not been brought out as proof.

“If the Americans can ditch Pakistan after defeating the Soviets, it is Pakistan’s right to exact as much price as possible for cleaning up the mess that others left behind. Meanwhile, India must not be allowed to exploit Afghan soil to send saboteurs to Pakistan, in a repeat of what New Delhi did back in the 1970s with the help of the Soviets.”

The Americans shouldn’t have ditched us or the world, nor is it our right to exact the same. We tried not to allow India to exploit Afghanistan by backing the Taliban of which the blowback we are suffering horribly now. This is clearly an issue of trust we have to work on. We ended up making bad paranoid choices. The same as the CIA had done the world over. Because of our ‘mistrust’ and fear of the ‘constant enemy’ ending up as our own worst enemy instead. This attitude,policy and spy games must change.

Posted by Saf | Report as abusive
 

Qasim
1. Pakistan controls the jihadis: True
2. 2. Musharraf was in control, Zardari is not: True
3. 3. Pakistan, which Pakistan? Nobody in Pakistan finds it funny. True. The sick part is that they do not find it disgusting….
4. Pakistan and its loose nukes: True
5. Pakistan is a failed state: True
6.But since people weren’t raising anti-India or anti-America slogans, nobody outside Pakistan took much notice. Voicing support could have been exploited by labeling pro-democracy forces as traitors…
7. All Pakistanis hate India: False
8. Training camps: True
After all how much training do you need if you are going to shoot at random civilians or blow yourself up in a crowded bazaar? – Extensive & expensive, follow the petrodollars where are they spent…
9. RAW would never do what ISI does: True, reason being incompetence…
And now it’s busy doing jihad against those very jihadis. – lol, you really think the world digests this flimsy claim…
10. Pakistan is poor, India is rich: this is what we have achieved in our mutual desire to teach each other a lesson. False. India is not Pakistan-centric…

what you think about the argument that Hanif is making. – A feeble attempt to justify barbarism…

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive
 

@saf

The Pakistani people are known to be kindhearted & generous to outsiders,& we have been known to be warm & welcoming to foreigners…the Afghans should be treated as no different.However,when you have an Afghan (as we do on this forum) who is ungrateful for the kindhearted & generous way in which Pakistan treated his country in the past, then it shows how ungrateful he is being

Posted by Qasim | Report as abusive
 

@Ahmed Qureishi

Are you are the same Ahmed Qureishi who comes on television? I have seen you on Geo and Al-Jazeera!

Look man,we gotta find a way to communicate our message to the outside world…we have to form lobbying groups in the Gulf,UK,USA & Canada…places where the Pakistani diaspora is strong. We have to communicate our message because secular Pakistanis are having their voice drowned out. How can we do this? What has been done so far & how can we improve on that?

Posted by Qasim | Report as abusive
 

@rajeev

Look,I have read the article & its designed to spread fear into the hearts of the American establishment & the broader American population.It must be remembered that public opinion is the Achilles heel of Western democracy,& for public opinion to back imperialist wars the naive & simplistic hill billy from the countryside has to be behind it. These are the same media/think tanks that said there were WMDs in Iraq…how can you say these are credible sources? How can you say these are intelligent people? Its whipping up war hysteria for no reason,for the likelihood of Pakistani nukes falling into T-ist hands is quite low.

Posted by Qasim | Report as abusive
 

@anup

Look man,if you really think Pakistan controls the T-ists,do you think they would have killed Benazir Bhutto?Do you think they would have had 2-3 assassination attemps to Pervez Musharraf?How many innocent Pakistanis have died at their hands? Instead of saying “INDIA IS THE VICTIM,PAKISTAN IS BAD” you should say “WE ARE BOTH VICTIMS,WE SHOULD WORK TOGETHER”

Further peace talks are the only way forward…

Posted by Qasim | Report as abusive
 

@chirkut

Thanks for your answer to the article I posted. Your replies are your opinion & you have a right to them…I also hope Pakistan can build a succesful democracy,at peace with India & at peace with itself.More than anything,Pakistanis want economic growth,peace & prosperity because our country has proven how it can be an economic powerhouse in the right times. At this moment,we have:

(a) Internal enemies(such as Tlbn/AQ)
(b) External enemies(such as RAW,CIA,Afghan intelligence)

As Pakistanis,we WANT to get rid of T-ism because it will benefit our economic growth.But in doing so,India should lend us a helping hand by stopping its clandestine operations and sponsorship of the Baloch Liberation Army. India should also prove it wants peace & when it does so,the Pakistani government & army will have an easier time dismantling the T-ist infrastructure

Posted by Qasim | Report as abusive
 

@Umair,

You still have not refuted Osama Bin Laden, Islamic Extremism, Terrorism and violence, the Deoband Wahhabi hate fueled Madrassas the terrorist infrastructure and the notorious grandmaster terrorist, Ret. Lt. Gen. Hamid Gul.

Please refute and say that you believe these above stated evils of Pakistan should be eliminated permanently.

In your own writing denounce them. If you do not, you are with them and quietly sympathize with them.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive
 

When I was young I was a fool. In my classroom they taught me hate.
When I grew up,I decided to broaden my mind. When I told foreigners about my Nation’s superiority compared to India,people began to laugh,there was sarcasm in their reply,I had known that.
Let us we Pakistanis understand something-We use terrorism as a tool to achieve our aims.
A)Mumbai terror attacks must have come from our soil. We all know that,yet when someone points that to us,we try to counter attack by pointing out their incompetency.
B)Do we know,why Afghans-literate Afghans-hate us the most? Its like this,they had a nail on their toe and they came to us for help.Immediately we introduced them to a crocodile-Taliban-to cut off their leg. Then we claimed we helped them.
To all Indians,
Yes our land might have been used to attack your people and our Government had closed its eyes on that. But today we are democratic and we will slowly root out the terrorism. Just like you people find it very hard to prosecute the attackers of the Babur Masjid,we are also finding it too hard to prosecute our enemies. We can eliminate terrorists only with your friendship. Your antagonism towards us will only strengthen our Islamic fundamentalists’ hated propaganda to our illiterate people against you.

Posted by pk | Report as abusive
 

Qasim:

Let us be patriotic but not over-defensive or brush aside the real dangers.

1. About WMD report
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/librar y/report/2008/wmd-prolif-terror-commissi on2-02.htm
the committee members say that “The intent of this report is neither to frighten nor to reassure the American people about the current state of terrorism and weapons of mass destruction.”
—- The purpose of this report was about WMDs in general (both Nuclear- and Bio-terrorism) not targeted towards any single nation. Perhaps you think since it US report, US is using for its advantage. @Iraq war was different. Many countries and many politicians inside US, including Powell, as you mentioned, and Obama were against Iraq/ WMD evidence. But here the situation is worse than you and I can imagine.
2. On: “for public opinion to back imperialist wars the naive & simplistic hill billy from the countryside has to be behind it.”
—-One can be hilly billy by not acknowledging the facts.
3. Believing the story that men broke into high security facility that stores nuclear stuff in South Africa (denuclearized state now), why cannot it happen anywhere else. How about the Russian guy in the train who worked in soviet nuclear facility and was looking for a buyer of plutonium in a bag he had.
4. On ““Its whipping up war hysteria for no reason,for the likelihood of Pakistani nukes falling into T-ist hands is quite low.”
——–Osama bin Laden is a big fan of Nukes. The link of a a Pak scientist (forgot the name but not AQ Khan)with Al-Qaida are known. OBL says it is religious duty of Muslim nations to have such weapons. In an interview he says in fact he has one. Click OBL interview http://www.dawn.com/2001/11/10/top1.htm) .
Even if he is lying his intentions are clear and make sense since terrorists must be bored with killing 200-2000 innocents per hit.
5. Pak is the only Muslim country which has Nukes and OBL must be drooling over it.
6. On top of it Pakistan scientists did not give nice reputation to the country by the way nuclear technology was acquired–stealing technology from Netherlands (fact); AQ Khan getting lectures from China (OK but Pak technology is not indigenous). Add to it the facts that both Pak and China distributed nuclear material weapons to N. Korea and Libya, Saudi Arabia, Algeria.
7. Afghanistan/Pakistan is the place many terrorist gps were created and nurtured and the place-to-be for them.
8. Declared Terrorist agenda of establishing Islamic rule over India.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

Qasim,

In continuatiom of my last message.

From all this to me it is logical to say that Pak nukes are the most vulnerable than anywhere else. I am not pointing fingers here-just analyzing. If India is the same boat, I’ll still do the same.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

Qasim

Do you really believe that The Pakistani Army & ISI are not ‘hand-in-gloves’ with T-ist’s?
Do you really believe that Benazir’s assassination is simply an act of terror & not a Political ploy?
Attacks on Musharaf were part & parcel of this deadly game.
The questions to be asked is –Why innocent Pakistani’s are killed by them, are there any ideological justifications that they can give or are they given a freehand to quench their blood-thirst? Or to keep the democratic administration within their confines? Or is it simply that some elements are getting more adventurous or are demanding their pound of flesh, if discriminated by the ISI Masters? & the innocents are just collateral damage.
Do Pakistani’s really will to decimate terrorism? Or is their ‘victimization’ just a smokescreen? If the Indian Army can flush out ‘invaders’ from the treacherous Kargil mountains, then why not a similar offensive work in the FATA etc…
Peace can be achieved on equal & mutual terms, if you’ll can’t rein in the ISI beast, then all peace talks are a farce, & sadly the Democratic Establishment has neither proved their mettle nor shown any sign of playing an assertive role & giving justice to the mandate given to them by the citizens, not that I doubt their capabilities, but their impotent approach is palpable.

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive
 

‘Pakistan key to bringing peace in Afghanistan’
AFP

LONDON: Peace will only come to Afghanistan if Pakistan can sort out the militants on its side of the border, where US strikes are not helping, the head of Britain’s armed forces told The Sunday Times newspaper.

Air Chief Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup said only politics, long term, could bring peace on both sides of the frontier.

The chief of the defense staff said that weaknesses in Afghan President Hamid Karzai’s government were causing difficulties for the 8,300 British troops battling Taleban insurgents in the troubled south of the country.

“The weakness of governance in Afghanistan worries me considerably,” Stirrup told the weekly broadsheet.

“But governance is not just about what goes on in Kabul. We have to look at the wider picture.

“The Taleban movement — and Taleban is now a catch-all phrase for ideologues, criminals, people with tribal grudges, people who are quite simply guns for hire to keep bread on the table — is on both sides of the border.

“It makes no distinction between one side or the other. Some people move across. Some are based almost exclusively in Pakistan. Some are based exclusively in Afghanistan.

“It’s impossible to distinguish between those two and actually, in my view, not necessary. The border is not relevant.” Stirrup sympathized with the difficulties faced by the Pakistani military, admitting that its success so far had been “limited.”

“The Pakistan Army has a series of very considerable problems,” he said, adding it had realized that “the growing insurgency within its own borders is an existential problem for Pakistan.” Gen. Ashfaq Kayani, the head of Pakistan’s army, “is absolutely clear on the size of the challenge that he faces.

“The Pakistan Army has become much more sophisticated and much more flexible and adaptable in terms of its approach.

“So we have to do all we can to support the military in that shift, but we have to recognize that they can’t do it overnight.

“Just as in Afghanistan, that kind of insurgency cannot be defeated by conventional military means. It can only be dealt with, in the long term, through politics.” He said it was “very important” for the Islamabad government to start changing public sentiment that all would be well if Western troops were not in Afghanistan.

“While they shouldn’t be driven by public opinion, they can’t operate in the face of it. The Predator strikes don’t help in that regard,” he said, referring to US air strikes on the Pakistani side of the border.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Anup
The day you stop thinking ISI is supporting terrorism and many of people in your country and government stop thinking this way, India will make a lot of progress. Look at the time enerfy you spend on saying ISI supports terrorists. Saying a thousand times that sun rises from the west will not make it rise from the west, it will always rise form the east.
India is isolated internationally in its stand against Pakistan. Both Obama and UK foreign secretary have stated that Kashmir needs to be resolved. You are better off not to live in a state of denial and stop thinking ISI is supporting or sponsoring terrorism. The US, Canada, France, UK or EU none of the international community thinks that we. India will be diplomatically isolated by adopting such a stance.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

“However,when you have an Afghan (as we do on this forum) who is ungrateful for the kindhearted & generous way in which Pakistan treated his country in the past, then it shows how ungrateful he is being”

– Qasim

You’ve missed the point again and stuck with old assumptions simplifying the issue. That all Afghanis, including our reuters Afghan, were treated fairly in Pakistan. This is simply not true and we don’t have an account of OUR Afghan’s experience, or family’s experience in Pakistan. Perhaps we should ask him?

You also jumped to the assumption that Pakistan treated Afghanistan well too, again which is not the case. I’ve been there, and I know them and their stories. It doesn’t stop with Afghanis. There are many Kashmiris and Balochis who dislike Pakistan. It may sound shocking at first, but it is true, though it is not a majority view, it is a large unhappy bloc of ethnicities. We can’t ignore this and must be practical to the reasons why.

Posted by Saf | Report as abusive
 

PK,

I’m impressed that you’ve realized how misled we were in our youths. Such as “Ek Pakistani fauji, DUS Indian say Ziyada behter hai”. Many believe this into their old age.
Our roles in 65 and 71 (especially 71). The sectarian violence in the 90′s which was constantly blamed on RAW. Not that RAW didn’t have their hands on the BLA or the early MQM, but it was obvious their fingerprints were not there in the 90′s onwards. Yet, many of our citizens believe it to be so rather than extremists backed by the Middle East(and surprisingly a couple of Indians too believe it was RAW!). Then we saw how much in denial many of the Pakistani posters were on this forum on the off chance that Kasab was a Pakistani, which indeed was the case, only to be embarrassed by our politicians doing an about face.

I would suggest everyone listen to PK. He’s got the reasons down pat.

Posted by Saf | Report as abusive
 

Anup,

Though not the same reasons with Umair, I am with the same conclusion that the ISI are NOW on our side (if you asked me 6 months ago I would have given you a different answer).

A recap of its notorious history:

The ISI WERE sponsoring terrorism (Dawood Ibrahim) and supported the Taliban as a proxy. This is fact. There were religious radicals in ISI. This is fact. Lal Masjid was where many ISI employees had prayed and used as recruitment for their activities. This is fact. ex-ISI chief Hamid Gul still voices support for the Taliban. This is fact. ISI were involved in many disappearances of Pakistani citizens. This is fact. ISI were responsible for many results in political elections and bugging of opposition politicians committed by their political wing. This is fact.

So why start believing in them now?

The new ISI chief is Shuja Pasha. Unlike his predecessors he doesn’t have a religious ideology and is a better covert tactician than his last predecessor, Ashfaq Kiyani the current Chief of Staff fighting the Taliban who himself was revered by the CIA. Pasha’s appointment is considered a tremendous boost in the fight against the Taliban. He also abolished the political ISI wing that had caused much internal strife supporting military takeovers. This ensures more freedom to our civilian politicians.

Ashfaq Kayani was accused of doing a double take…as in hunting Al-Qaeda, but using the Taliban still as a proxy to guard against whatever Indian interests lay in Afghanistan or helping the BLA.

But many critics believe Kayani was simply not in control of the lower echeleons of ISI agents unlike Pasha. Kayani is stil credited in streamlining operations with the US along the border which was a constant complaint last year by both sides.

Pasha is said to claim if agents were to disobey his plans then there would be severe consequences compared to the past where field agents were given full autonomy.

They’ve upgraded their intelligence and investigative units throughout the security forces with the help of Britain’s MI-5(or 6?). Reports of kidnapped Pakistani citizens by security forces are now not heard including reduced bombings however city and regional battles still rage.

Overall there’s an improvement. Due to the Mumbai killings there’s been more activity than in recent memory due to pressure and new organizational goals. Though as they try to progress, there are still loose strings, such as, ex-army men and agents who are betraying the country. There are also those traitors in the forces who were accused just one year back to supporting the militants. Despite these obstacles, the outlook is optimistic at least in Security aims.

Posted by Saf | Report as abusive
 

Umair,

It was us who were more enthralled with RAW in the past rather than the Indians were with ISI. They’ve progressed relatively quite well and better than us. They’re after the ISI because of the recent Mumbai killings.

India isn’t isolated, as the West is in a diplomatic engagement in trying to keep Pakistan concentrated towards its West borders. Many Western Intelligence reports had blamed the ISI before many times including sources on reuters and BBC. Even us Pakistani citizens have blamed the ISI for many conspiracies. As the British PM had mentioned, 75% of their terror investigations had connection to Pakistan. India’s concerns aren’t totally unfounded.

Posted by Saf | Report as abusive
 

The complex relationships among the ISI,army and of course the militants,as mentioned by Saf,is just driving the Pakistanis mad. We don’t know what to believe these days. Before the Mumbai attacks,India seemed to be the only country that was sure to make a cricket tour in Pakistan. The present relationship has so worsened that their cricket board heavyweight will now try to prevent others from touring Pakistan. If the perpetrators of the Mumbai attacks are Pakistanis,then they have betrayed Pakistan by killing our happiness.
I envy India,not because they are an economic powerhouse-sure their per capita GDP is lesser than us- but because they have got a single command at the center which has got at least some fear of the people. The world listens to them and look at us like a misbehaving child because half of the time our PM himself does not know who’s ruling the nation. I am just expecting that the current crisis will be over and that we will also attract tremendous investments from the world. If that is a reality we will be in a better position compared to India because our population is just one ninth of that of India and we can use our resources more effectively.

Posted by pk | Report as abusive
 

PASHTUNISTAN is a sad story. Thanks to the propaganda of the PA and ISI, people elsewhere might have got the impression all Pashtuns are raging jihadis.

The reality is there is NO PASHTUN NATIONALISTIC struggle against the foreign troops in Afghanistan. Rather a bunch of terrorists from Punjab, Arab countries, Central Asian republics etc are fighting for their own agendas and play havoc with the lives of ordinary Pashtuns. In the tribal areas all this is happening in connivance and collaboration with ….who else….PA and ISI..of course.

The primary goal for the Afghan people SHOULD BE to establish a government in Kabul that truly represents the aspirations all the ethnic groups in Afghanistan. This is different from the goal of PA, ISI and Punjabistanis who primarily look at Afghanistan as their colony just like SINDUDESH, JINNAHPUR, BALOCHISTAN AND PASHTUNISTAN and would like to have some puppet government there even if that means they are Taliban.

 

They’re (Indians) after the ISI because of the recent Mumbai killings.
- Posted by Saf

Saf: Mumbai is very recent. We have suffered from terrorism heavily promoted by ISI/Pak since 1980s- For example Sikh terrorism. Latter is curbed but it shows up its heads once in a while. They say it is ISI and I belive them since still there are militants in Pak. Of course ISI/Kashmir militancy is well known. ISI is much admired by many Pakistanis for its ability to do such activities.

Umair it shouting ISI is boring but not untrue.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

Saf, do you believe ISI is no longer engaged in anti-India activities just because they tore down the political wing ?? Woudn’t it be in the interest of ISI or pak govt to extradite criminals like Dawood (Indian citizen) rather than protecting him ?? Dont you think that would be the kind of actions that would make India and pakistan trust each other and sit for talks ??

Having said that.. pulling down Dawood doesn’t seem like a easy job or is not in the interest of politicians of either country..India has simply asked Pak to hand over Dawood but has failed to act on his drug bussiness in India..his drug bussiness is still active and crores of rupees a week are still being sent to him thru Hundi process from India ..there is no considerable effort in India to stop his bussiness..even in maharastra where recent attacks happened !! Shiv sena, MNS are all very active to voice against pakistani artists, books etc in mumbai..but nobody..absolutely nobody questioned politicians or the police as to why Dawood’s underworld bussiness is not curbed !!

Posted by Anitha | Report as abusive
 

Saf wrote:
“It was us who were more enthralled with RAW in the past rather than the Indians were with ISI. They’ve progressed relatively quite well and better than us.”
Well Saf stop fooling around, I dont believe you are a Pakistani. Listen up kid, Pakistanis are second to none, we are best professionals, Pakistani pilots are the best, we have made our name in the field of nuclear research and atomic energy. We have a skilled work force, natural resources, the will and everything a nation needs to succeed. We have been world champions in many sports including cricket and hockey. Keep in mind the successes of Pakistan and highlight them. We dont need people like YOU who degrade fellow Pakistanis. I suggest if you are so much in love with India go live there. I was born in Pakistan and I would like to die in Pakistan. Pakistan is where I belong to and everything I have belongs to Pakistan.
Pakistan Zindabad!!!
Pakistan always second to none!!!
Sab se Pehle Pakistan!!!
Pakistan meri Jan!!!

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

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