The other Guantanamo

January 31, 2009

U.S. President Barack Obama has ordered the Guantanamo military prison closed within the year, but what about the detention centre in Bagram, the U.S. military base in Afghanistan, which has an equally murky legal status ?

An estimated 600 detainees are held there, without any charge and many for over six years, rights activists say. That makes it more than twice the number held in Guantanamo, and according to military personnel who know both facilities, it is much more spartan and with lesser privileges as this report in the New York Times says.

Few detainees have had access to lawyers, and there was no question ever of allowing journalists or human rights advocates into the facility. I lived on the military base for four weeks as part of a group of journalists covering the war in 2002 and we had no clue where the prison was located, and we would keep guessing which one of the cavernous Soviet-built aircraft hangars the detainees were kept in.

Since then, the New York Times says, the population at the Bagram prison has expanded substantially, especially after the Bush administration largely halted the movement of prisoners to the Cuban facility in September 2004, making the Afghan centre the preferred alternative.

Indeed there is a U.S. plan to expand the prison complex to hold 1,100 “enemy combatants” – prisoners who cannot see lawyers, have no trials and never see any evidence there may be against them, Britain’s Telegraph said. The one concession that has happened over the past year is that every Monday families gather in a Red Cross compound in Kabul for a glimpse by live video of brothers, sons and husbands who have disappeared into the feared detention centre in Bagram.

The U.S. military says the detainees are Taliban and al Qaeda fighters who must be kept off the battlefield. But human rights lawyers say the prison also holds scores of innocent people, many seized after tip-offs from feuding rivals in a viciously warring tribal society, as the Telegraph story says.

The question of Bagram becomes more vexed given that the new administration plans to step up combat operations in Afghanistan, which means there will be new waves of detainees.

Obama’s team is silent on its plans for Bagram, and there seems to be little likelihood of change at the prison, the Telegraph quotes Joanne Mariner, a lawyer and terrorism expert at Human Rights Watch, as saying.  “Right now they are expanding it, they are building a new facility. Clearly closing it isn’t on the agenda.”

One more challenge for Richard Holbrooke, the U.S. envoy for Afghanistan and Pakistan, as he heads into the region next week?  Holbrooke faces a  “dim and dismal” situation in both countries as Bruce Riedel, a South Asia expert, said in an interview with the Council for Foreign Relations. Any opening to the Afghan people or even the Pakistanis for that matter, would have to answer the question : how do you justify holding scores of people without any recourse to justice ?

[Reuters pictures of a protest against Guantanamo prison in Washington and U.S. soldiers at the Bagram air base]

Comments

The issue of labeling people as ‘enemy combatants’ will eventually have to be addressed in these American ‘secret prisons’ are ever to be closed.
As long as there is justification, there will be places like this.
If we are to lead the world in the practice of the principles of freedom and justice, places like this cannot exist. It is a stain on the honor of every American.

Posted by J. C. | Report as abusive
 

If this is the case, then where Gitmo brought down Bush, Bagram will bring down Obama. The US will have to stop rendition and torture methods. If the US claims to be a civilized country, then the humiliations of Abu Ghraib and gitmo are not to be repeated in Bagram.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Terrorists should be terrorized for their hatred of Christianity, western lifestyles and life in general. If you kill them they succeed in their objective and die as martyrs … if you torture them to extract valuable information which prevents future attacks then that is a good thing. You certainly do not give them civil rights same as some meth lab junkie supplier or dealer.

Bottom line is people who end up in these prisons are the scurge and scum of the Earth that attempts, on a daily basis, to disrupt everyone elses pursuit of meaningful life and existance … the have no rights – human or civil ones.

Nobody ever said that war was pretty or fair, why should the individuals responsible for starting and sustaining one have a single shred of decency cast upon them? Even peace kills unless every human life form is in pursuit of it.

Posted by Waterboard Master | Report as abusive
 

I suggest anyone who’s into documentaries to watch ‘Taxi to the Dark Side’. It didn’t receive the hype as Michael Moore’s films but it certainly was one of the better ones and won an Academy award, and deservedly so, for its depictions of Bagram and Guantanamo and the end of an innocent Afghan Taxi Driver.

Posted by Saf | Report as abusive
 

The US should stop torture against prisoners of Guantanamo and must release them.

 

Obama is just another politician

Posted by Qasim | Report as abusive
 

It may take Obama atleast a visit to Afghanistan or other places where US is fighting a war..He has derived a lot of problems from Bush to take care of at the moment, so his approach could be one prison at a time though i doubt he has full knowledge of all faciities the US has world over..
But anyways, I dont think Obama would make a good US president..he could be a good man..but you need a strong leader to sit in the prez seat which he definately isn’t..he would end up loosing all bailout money and also all tax income the US govt has..i expect his term would be a very poor show..

Posted by Anitha | Report as abusive
 

Afghanistan will be Obama’s graveyard…he will lose the war & furthermore lose his economy as well,in the election

Posted by Qasim | Report as abusive
 

For heaven to exist, there must be a place called Hell.

Criminals can be given humane treatment but not terrorists, PERIOD!

All those who are for closing interrogation centers just because most inmates are muslims, please read into Obama’s declaration that US (and the civilized world)is not against Islam. So get with the program!!!!!!

Posted by indian1127 | Report as abusive
 

indian1127,

Its a sick program to get with. Some inmates are not Muslims. Nearly all are. When its recorded that Interrogators had captured and tortured also innocent inmates, such as the Taxi Driver of Bargram, there’s an issue.

Disgusting tactics against even Innocent inmates were sanctioned such as desecrating the Quran and abuses also practicing humiliating stress positions. A mindset of anti-Islamic behavior from the guards are noticed as well as that all prisoners that come in are for all intents and purposes already guilty without trial.

Notables such as Al-Jazeera cameraman Sami al-Hajj, who was held for 6 years without charge, Saddiq Ahmad Turkistani who himself was imprisoned by the Taliban, Mohammed Saghir recounts the most detailed incidents and numberous other innocent prisoners.

What’s even more astounding is that 61 ex-inmates who were quickly released and joined the terrorist ranks while 200 or more known innocents still languished in jails for years. How this happened to be must raise eyebrows on what the intentions and motives really are of the interrogators.

We must remember many of these inmates were betrayed by Afghan warlords, such as General Dostum, and Pakistani security forces who were more interested in collecting bounties rather than using due diligence in capturing the real enemies. This of course does not let the US off the hook as they are all in this together and by their actions its not too difficult to believe that there maybe strong religious tones leading US decisions.

Posted by Saf | Report as abusive
 

However the 61 inmates story and the 200 or 300 or so innocents that languish is nothing more than a conspiracy theory until there’s a real investigative report on the lapses and of course more investigations into the tortures and those brought to book from the previous US administration.

And with the new Obama administration, unlike the Bush regime, there seems to be a mellow message lacking any religious tone that Bush and his evangelical supporters had used to describe their actions. Indeed Bush may have been the most non-secular US president in recent memory. Its too early too tell though on Obama’s moral compass and sincerity, but here’s hoping for the best. So far so good.

Posted by Saf | Report as abusive
 

Qasim,

If Obama loses in Afghanistan, we might as well turn into a graveyard as well if it were to happen so, and right now our soldiers being killed by fanatics and anti-Pakistanis is making it so.

Today I got up to read Dawn online and very upset with this news item:
http://dawn.com/2009/02/01/top2.htm

It lists the Senators’ finances. Of course nothing surprising from many of their smug lies (how they do it so easily).

However I was shocked to find Israrullah Zehri, the trophy Federal Minister of Postal Services, as the richest, the very feudal moron who justified the honour case of the alive burial of women that happened recently in his province.

With idiots like him in power, as well as the corrupt Senators, they’ll make it easy for the Taliban to reign freely in the country amidst the miserable situation created by the Senators for the people.

Posted by Saf | Report as abusive
 

Saf,

No one would like to have innocent people locked up, emphasis should be on tightening the process to identify only genuine terrorists, who should be incarsarated.

That said, lets not have any fancy ideas of not torturing these terrorists and giving them civilized treatment. Information obtained is time sensitive and critical in saving lives.

Posted by indian1127 | Report as abusive
 

They say armed conflicts never give desired results. Likewise torture leads to more antagonism.

Posted by pk | Report as abusive
 

Saf

“: how do you justify holding scores of people without any recourse to justice ?”

— An apt example of the ‘Human right’ apathy & bias, when concerned with the west, whereas in India, if Kasib is not given a fair trial & not represented by a lawyer, he’ll go scot-free according to Indian Law…

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive
 

indian1127
You should do dome research on a youngster by the name of “Umar Khadr” a Canadian citizen who is in captivity in Guantanamo Bay. Umar is a child, he was only 15 years old boy when he was captured in a battle in Afghanistan. According to Geneva convention he was a child soldier, F-15s of USAF bombed the house he was in. Umar Khadr is son of Late Ahmed Khadr who used to run a charity in Afghanistan and the family are Canadians. Umar was subjected to torture, rendition, he has been kept in Guantanamo for all these years he is now a young man. Now that Guantanamo will be closed Umar Khadr will be able to go back to Canada where his family will fight his legal battle and he could return to lead a normal life in society. You tell me doesnt Umar have a right to a fair trial? Why was he kept in Guantanamo for all these years and deprived of sleep? he lost his one eye and barely survived the USAF F-15 laser guided bombs. These are the things that concern the muslim world. Whether christian or muslim, no one deserves to languish in secret prison camps like Gitmo or Bagram. In Umar case he still is not guilty of any thing, no charges against him have been proven.
Give all detainees a fair trial and stop using extraordinary rendition and waterboarding methods.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Waterboard Master

—Well Said! the same rule should apply to every American for their countries role in Vietnam – sadistic military adventure, Iraq – for the greed of oil, & Afghanistan – for clandestine power & establishing base on the gateway to Asia…

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive
 

Also the case of MIT educated Pakistani neurosurgeon Dr. Aafia Siddiqui who was kept in captivity in Bagram, that issue is still unresolved. She was flown last year into US and is facing trial, she became very ill during her captivity and it is alleged that she was brutally tortured. She is accused of being married to the cousin of an Al-qaeda member. This case is also very famous in Pakistan where her family is fighting a legal battle and there is a movement going on, also her three children were abducted with her from Karachi back in 200? last few years.
From taxi drivers, educated professionals christians or muslims, these secret prisons have a shadowy and murky existence. This dark chapter has to close.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Umair

—It’s hypocrites like you who are the main enemy of Human values & right to peaceful existence, with your lopsided & single-dimensional compassion….

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive
 

Terrorists should be terrorized for their hatred of Christianity,

this country is so sad

Posted by LIw | Report as abusive
 

Umair,

The Islamic world and terrorists will not respect the West if we become soft, soft meaning allowing Sharia law and disallowing Torture.

Torture is absolutely necessary to save the lives of innocents. The terrorists, even so called moderate Muslim countries all use torture, especially Saudi Arabia, they tortured that British Expatriate for a long time in detention and he did not even commit a crime, luckily Prince Charles lobbied the Saudi King to have him released, they were going the behead the British Citizen William Sampson and Saudi was not even at war!

Like they say, and eye for an eye and tooth for tooth. I am tire of even mainstream so called moderate muslims crying out against western torture, when they themselves practice torture openly, in all their countries.

Please no more double standards on torture practice what you preach.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive
 

Umair,

My research starts and ends with Moshe the little kid whose parents were killed in front of him, just because they were jewish and hence didnt deserve to live as per those Jihadi SOBS. That one incident put the whole Indian nation through prolonged torture.

We will torture a million Kasabs to save other kids, dont expect us to play gandhi when dealing with Taliban.

Most importantly I never said that fair trial should not take place, my point is only towards use of torture and greater authority to law enforcing authorities. Leagal structure were put into to place to protect the innocent and not to appease pseudo moderates.

p.s Umair I not sure the comments are from you, where the are “F*#@ India a thousand times” comments which have become you trademark.

Posted by indian1127 | Report as abusive
 

Indian1127
I apologize to you for any abusive words I used against your country. But keep in mind i read a lot of disgusting comments about my country, Pakistan. However, two wrongs doesnt make a right and I shall refrain from any provocative comments, I have said this and am repating it.
Moshe didnt deserve to loose his parents, so too the hundereds of Gaza childrens on whom the Israeli Army used white phosphorus and perpatrated war crimes. Next time when you hear that a Palestinian has blew himself up aboard a bus somewhere in Tel Aviv or Jerusalem, just keep in Mind maybe his beloved two year old kid was killed with a white phosphorus shell of israeli Army.
You are free to torture Kasab, just keep in mind this is what the US did. Today their economy is going down, the world has lost faith in them, their rivals from Russia to China and Iran are rising and their influence in the world is declining. Pakistan is putting forth conditions for cooperating in the US counterinsurgency efforts in Afghanistan. By using torture and rendition India will not acquire the rightful place in the world. In Pakistan they give examples of Indian democracy, you are free to go ahead and destroy your democracy and apply draconian and authoritarian state laws and torture techniques. But will India be respected after that?

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Anup wrote:
“—It’s hypocrites like you who are the main enemy of Human values & right to peaceful existence, with your lopsided & single-dimensional compassion….”

Clarify your self, i have not shown any hypocricy. I have highlighted a few incidents of extreme torture where lives of individuals were runied. Stick to the topic and let me know if there is any contradiction in what ever I stated. otherwise, I have stated many times hurling abuses and accusations at each other will not help anyone.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

To obtain the information from a confirmed terrorist torture methods are a must since tickling does not work at this level. The reason is simple that these hardcore guys have been taught how to resist the torture methods. They have done their research and gone through the drill. They are taught to misguide by wrong information too. It will be a joke using all the milder methods. Perhaps human rights have to reevaluate their definition of torture. If a formerly recognized govt of Afghanistan Taliban can do beheadings of ordinary people (may be culprits in their eye, but still petty criminals) in public places, these methods in prisons against terrorists have to be used. Yes there have to be a system in place to detain, screen the people and quickly get rid of them so that they innocents do not turn into terrorists.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

To all who approve the use of torture by the West,

Taking into account all positions I believe it is hypocritical for those who enjoy the freedoms of the west, and hope for the proliferation of these freedoms to condone torture.

‘The West’ prides itself on its protection of human rights.

But some of you may argue that torture is neccesary against ‘terrorists’. However, if we remember back to a time when were fighting a much more powerful evil (The Axis Ideologies) of the Second World War we realise that ‘The West’ didn’t bow to that pressure.

Behind the lines of the west there was no wide-scale use of torture, and from what I have read there was no systematic slaughter or extermination camps.

Unless ‘the West’ can take a moral high ground, its current methods (torture, redition, etc…) will not only serve to undermine the image of the west to those it wishes to influence, and its personal commitment to its own ideological goals but it will continue to ferment an even more bitter and hateful attitude towards it from it’s adversaries.

Posted by Msilk01 | Report as abusive
 

Umair,
Sorry could not help jump in response to this:
“You are free to torture Kasab, just keep in mind this is what the US did. Today their economy is going down, the world has lost faith in them, their rivals from Russia to China and Iran are rising and their influence in the world is declining.”

—-Am I smelling something here? Kasab is a terrorist(not an innocent). He walked calmly with gun in his hand killing innocents in the name of Jihad. Isn’t it reasonable for a self-respecting nation, democracy or dictatorship to get information through torture if required. The article is about bagram, where there is a mix of terrorists and innocents and no one knows for sure. Here we are tallking about a confirmed terrorist caught redhanded on Mumbai street and you expect India to think about economy at that time.

Umair, frankly speaking my humble opinion is that you are sympathetic to Kasab. On this blog you look like you will shoot a guy who disagrees with you but showing sudden sympathy for Kasab-a killer of innocents. This is confused state of mind. I will not mince words: is it religion or Nationality of Kasab that did that. Umair, if we let them go on, they sure will bring down India economy. Do you think US came down because of tortures–come on. India knows the reasons why USA is going this way. India does not hesitate to sympathize with Gazans. For the record, India was the first non-Aran country to recognize Palestine way back (and still is close and coondemned Israel attack on Gaza) and the last major Nation to recognize Israel (1992??). Indian policy is not confused about this–and I am proud of that. But thanks for nice words about Indian democracy.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

“I am tire of even mainstream so called moderate muslims crying out against western torture, when they themselves practice torture openly, in all their countries.”

Global Watcher,

I absolutely agree. When Maher Arar of Canada was mistreated by the Syrians, only the US and Canada were media grilled. I think partly that is because they’re interested in catching the hypocrisy of using the words ‘human rights’ and those countries doing the opposite. When it comes to the developing world, its apparently ‘less’ shocking. The only one interested in the case against Syria are the Arars themselves, but no media vigor on it.

Anup,

I didn’t understand what you meant highlighting my torture comment. Are you saying its apathetic to the tortures done in Asia or the ones in America? or both? Can you clarify. Thanks.

Posted by Saf | Report as abusive
 

Being a Republican by belief, I feel President Bush did what needed to be done at the time to make America secure. Innocents would have got caught in the process, and President Obama is doing what is right, closing down GITMO. Afghanistan may need GITMO like practices for some time before it is closed. In a war, do what is necessary to win it.

Posted by Jerry | Report as abusive
 

Western countries claiming to adhere to the rules of “civilized law” while engaging in as well as condoning and supporting torture, assassination, the slaughter of noncombatants, the destruction of civilian infrastructure, and other illegal/immoral acts are certainly and justifiably open to criticism and ridicule. When you claim the “moral high ground” you must walk that path regardless of what others are doing. It is our actions in lieu of our words which we are to be judged by.

Posted by amasiam | Report as abusive
 

I have heard several bloggers with the view that torture is counterproductive. So can you suggest a solution? Remember terrorism/suicide bombers are relatively recent phenomena and we do not have to stick to old values of human rights. I am not the lover of those who do carpet-bombing, Nuke-shooting, Gazan-killing. But I am also not a lover of these (so-called) Jihadis, suicide bombers which kill innocents anywhere-be it WTC or Mumbai, Kashmir or SWAT or Israel.

Sympathy for militants and opposing the torture of these killers (to save the innocent lives) do not tie well. I would welcome fresh ideas if they exist to deal militants without torture. Torture is old pratice, only the free media, www, reports, movies etc. has raised the awareness otherwise on one would even know about Bagram. This internet/TV and terrorism perhaps started roughly around the same time. This is good thing but we need alternatives solutions. Can you suggest?

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

Rajeev
Look, I have nothing to do with Kasab, for me a cold blooded killer is just like a cold blooded killer. nothing more or less. Do you want someone to throw a shoe at Dr. Manmohan Singh? no. No one can throw a shoe at him, he is not a killer like Bush. Didnt Bush fool the world about WMDs in Iraq and started a war, not a single chemical or biological weapon was found, but still today innocent civilians loose their lives in Iraq. This is cold blooded killing. Most importantly, my religion and faith says that killing one person is like killing humanity, and saving one person’s life is like saving humanity. I have no confusions about this, I am absolutely clear about it. The question of Kasab, well as far as i know there is an investigation taking place in Pakistan and the government of Pakistan is making it public in due time. Anyone for that matter, not only Kasab will be brought to justice. A former Prime minister, a serving surgeon general of Pakistan Army, politicians, ordinary people have lost their lives in Pakistan to the terrorists. We condemn them as much as you do, we want to bring them to justice as much as you do.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Everyone are talking about shut down Guantanamo. Did anyone thought what would be the future of these release people? I guess most of them are mentally and physically challenged by now.

Would our own nations provide employment and livelihood for them?

What would US of A do for them? Will UN help them?

Think of the after effects….?
Everyone don’t accept a common criminals in our society then are the nations ready to accept international criminals (labeled).

Posted by Blogger | Report as abusive
 

Democracy is rule of the people for the people, I as a law abiding, tax paying, god fearing citizen of repblic of India want my government to apprehend all terrorists (mullahs of taliban and Col purohits of RSS) and tortured if necessary to protect its citizens.

Indian “Democracy” will not be held hostage to hollow principles of human rights which would allow brain washed, half witted jihadists to massacare innocent folks in the streets of mumbai and then retire in a 2* state prison for the rest of life.

Countless times in the past civilized nations had to give its law enforcing authorities a free hand (go beyond the boundries of law), chicago cops cleaned up the city from the mob, russia use of brutual force against state rebels and mumbai’s encounter killing got rid of the mafia to the point where the so called dons had to settle and become state guests in pakistan.

If George Bush had taken the so called “Moral high ground” there would have been a million more terror attacks, lets face the facts that Gitmo and bush have been successful in preventing any more attacks on USA.

Let the terrorists know that while the 73 virgins and 2 goats are a mere possibility; Gitmo, water boarding and torture are an absolute certainty.

Posted by indian1127 | Report as abusive
 

Umair,
ThanX for the clarification.
“No one can throw a shoe at him (Manmohan singh), he is not a killer like Bush. Didnt Bush fool the world about WMDs in Iraq and started a war, not a single chemical or biological weapon was found, but still today innocent civilians loose their lives in Iraq.”
—I totally agree. Everone neW to begin With that Iraq WMDs is an excuse. Death of ~100,000 innocents (Iraq) plus over 4000 Americans is not a small #.

“Kasab will be brought to justice.”
—he is as good as gone. need the real masterminds/culprit-Pak and India know who they are. There is enough evidence (may not be legal enough) to show who the T-ist are.Leaving them free is not good. One mostly never gets evidence in T-ism. But everyone knows who the real guys are. Larger picture for Pak and India is the need to sincerely clear these militant groups–not just on West border, also East border of Pak. T-ists are biting noW.

Here are 2 articles on Swat.
http://www.dawn.com/2009/02/03/index.htm
http://www.dawn.com/weekly/kamran/kamran .htm

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

Umair:
I wanted to post these instead of the 1st link.
http://www.dawn.com/2009/02/03/ed.htm
http://www.dawn.com/weekly/mazdak/mazdak .htm

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

Saf

The hypocrisy of the so-called ‘HR’…

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive
 

Rajeev
Thank you for sharing the Swat links.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Do you still think the GITMO prisoners are innocent?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/786877 2.stm

Posted by Jerry | Report as abusive
 

Dogs keep barking whilst the caravns move on…. well looks like the idiots sorry indians lol are doing a good job at barking and trying to teach how to live in a civilised way.

A good start would be for india to give Kashmiris there rights which have been violated for the last 60years. They have been living under brutal OCCUPATION.

Maybe giving the indian muslims a bit more respcet rather then after every bomb that goes off in india. The indian cowrad security forces start to hunt inncoent muslims to frame them as the culprits. When infact the terrorist/coawrds are the hindu fanatics sorry TERRORISTS as perfect example is the samjuta train blasts which was full of civilians who were only armed with love n affection.

India should NOT pop its nose in every meighoring country e.g. sri lanks. So the diff is Pakistan supports LET and india supports the LTTE so what is the diffferenec the Tamils are involved in similar acts as the umbais and India openly supports them. Even though with the help of PAKISTAN.CHINA soon this insurgency will come to an end after 30years of indians policy have become a failure.

West always had clear double standards. For example when the serbs murdered, raped, killed, burned homes, held full city to siege in (Sarajevo) (GAZA) as open prison. This all happened under their noses but they turned blind eye and only opened it once the killing were done the masaccre took place. Even to this day they still finding new graves of young muslims who looked just like the the normal white colours, drank, but their only fault was they were muslims.

Just now what hapened in GAZA where si the civilised world…Go to HELL it is essence of time that there is sharia law in all Muslims lands. Thoses it sounds backwards well heared the saying live in rome then you got to follow rome rules.

I find it so mind boggling that one side you people say killing innocent is bad and course it is. But whenthe guns are pointed at muslims anywhere there is NOT even condemnation. So go to hell all you idiots and all your sympthisers… Long live LET and the Kashmiris Mujahdeens and Long live Kashmir!!!

Posted by Ali | Report as abusive
 

Speaking of Long life to LET…a women in kashmir has mustured courage to file a complaint againt 3 Let member who raped her thrice when she was a 5 months pregnant !! There aremany people who havn’t sought the help of police fearing brutal reaction from Let there..
So Ali its for uninformed dogs like you to stop barking.
and not the sane and secular voices..
Try to read news rather than listening news from a mulla you idiot.

Posted by Anitha | Report as abusive
 

@Ali – “Just now what hapened in GAZA where si the civilised world…Go to HELL it is essence of time that there is sharia law in all Muslims lands”

Now we know what law muslim lands follow..Hamas govt goons in Gaza abducted the food, medicines and other aid items from UN when it was being distributed to sufferring and poor people..
Another news – The music and film culture in peshawar is completely shut down..
Yet another one – Girl students of SWAT are now migrating in large numbers to other places to persue basic education..
so much for your sharia law

Posted by Anitha | Report as abusive
 

Please, somebody hide me from Ali. He scares me.

Posted by Saf | Report as abusive
 

Ali,

Did you hear yourself talk? I remember that Muslim countries also stood by watching white-drunk-not-so-sure-if Muslims-so-we’ll-wait-and-see-if-they-ar e Bosnians get slaughtered too. AND If I remember correctly it wasn’t a Muslim country that stopped the Serbs and saved the Bosnian Muslims…who was it, then? hmmmm…oh yes, Uncle Sam i.e. USA.

And if I recall correctly, Egypt had their borders shut during the assault and the Arab world couldn’t get one damn statement out to condemn the bombings.

Sharia Law? I’m sorry, are you sleeping through the news about the Nut jobs and traitors running amok in Swat who want Sharia Law, cutting people’s heads in butcher shops and banning girls education in schools, and stopped all NGOs including polio vaccinations? You Want That? You rather be a Jahal like those Lal Masjid folks? Did they really appeal to you?

Do you even know what Sharia Law is? Jinnah wanted a Secular nation. Not some messed up Wahabi/Salafi/Deobandi/Nasibi (they’re all Kharjites) interpretation leading the country calling every second person Kaffir causing sectarian strife and deaths of minorities.

As a brother Pakistani, I suggest some “critical thinking”. You’re angry at the world’s double standards. So am I. However look at home first. Do you see our citizens committing the same stuff we’re accusing the West of? Yea, they are, and maybe worse.

Do you think our guys who go into Kashmir have been great for the Kashmiris and they all absolutely love us? Think again. We’ve done some horrid stuff, man. Like blowing away an entire family, including women and kids, if one guy is found to be an informant. The 3 rapists Anitha mentions…yea its possible. And you don’t want to hear about the ‘mujahids’(they shouldn’t be called that) in 47/48 who went into Kashmir…

Challenge your perceptions, brother.

Posted by Saf | Report as abusive
 

Ali’s “A good start would be for india to give Kashmiris there rights which have been violated for the last 60years. They have been living under brutal OCCUPATION.

———-Ali: Yes let us start it. So who are the Kashmiris? What about 500,000 Kashmiri Pundits who left Kashmir bec. of terrorism (professional killers of Pakistan). Someone has to fill in the vacuum and that is allegedly similar # of Indian soldiers. What about the genocide of kashmiris? Kashmiri Hindus were asked to choose between Convert, Flee or Perish. “agar Kashmir me rahna hei, to allah ho akbar kahna hei” slogan was shouted at that time. Kashmiris in J&K have more rights than any other Indian. Am I right that Kashmir is not a synonym for Muslim? Your feeling that Kasmiri are closer to Pakistanis lacks your knowledge of history (include Pundits) and the current reality (they hate you bec. of terrorism you imposed on them and they can see POK).

Now, if you scrub your brain with a sand paper and rub your eyes, give a splash of cold water and allow yourself to sink into the history from a neutral source-rather than a rotten propaganda site, you will not sound so inhuman and pathetic.

Compare what India and Pakistan have done for Kashmiris. The name Azad Kashmir is such a bogus title since its PM is from Rawalpindi Punjab. High positions are held by Pakistanis, if I believe a Kashmiri from POK (now in Malaysia) who was complaining over a pro-Pak blog and was saying India has done a lot good work for Kashmiris and Kashmiris in India have better opportunities (Eduction and jobs), the money India is spending on J&K. While India has article 370 giving special status to J&K (including non-Kashmiris not able to buy property in Kashmir) and Pak allowed several thousand non-Kashmiri families to settle in POK. Pakistan destroyed the original demographics by ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri Pundits and asking for plebiscite by waging proxy war called Jihad in the name of Kashmiris. How about Mangla Dam story of POK-How many Kashmiris were thrown out of POK (lost jobs in the wake of the construction of Mangla Dam). Now Dam supplies 65% of the Pak electricity needs, but the so-called Azad Kashmir does not get any royalty. Azad Kashmir’s budget is just 20% of what Pakistan’s earns from the electricity produced at Mangla dam!!! Pak is leaching POK’s resources.

Oh I forgot, one thing Pak has done for Indian Kashmir is to give them terrorism-without-referendum and if I start pulling out what these coward Jihadis deeds towards Indian Kashmiris, you will never ever visit Reuter again. POK has camps for training your “long live” LeT bros and other —-gps for killing innocents all around. I know that you don’t care what LeTs etc do to Indians but if you have enough fire in your belly tell your LeT bros that they killed 40 Muslims in Mumbai attack, way above the % Muslim population. Terrorism is very secular that way, so do not be so sure when you walk around.
Here is what 3 LeT cowards did to a pregnant woman that Anitha mentioned (I expect you say oh no it was all implanted).
http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/indi a-news/pregnant-woman-in-doda-accuses-la shkar-militants-of-gang-raping-her-repea tedly_100151075.html

If you cannot assimilate all this, just read this: Independent Kashmir is impossible. Kashmiris in India are better off as a special status than having a bogus Independence you have given them by implanting a Punjabi PM for Azad Kashmir.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

Ali,

It is too bad, you were not in the Lal Masjid. Maybe you could have defended your Sharia ideals and martyred yourself.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive
 

Rajeev, Anitha , Global Watcher
and @$$ hole Ali,

I read your threads and Rajeev dont worry, this Idiot Ali in his true spirit of being a dumb pakistani just said some thing in his last comment what we have been trying to prove. He said “Long live LeT” and this is what International community should look at. That terrorist are getting ideological, and fundamental support in pakistan.
Mumbai Attack investigations have established beyond doupt, Pakistan’s involvement in the attacks. Instead of being ashamed this @$$hole is shouting slogans. That I believe is nothing but a desperation and frustation which is causing this self delusion. Their economy is not going, country in not going anywhere in terms of growth, education etc, The same Taliban they trained and now are now fighting against, to please the west is ready to bite them in their bums. So to sum it all up the state is at the verge of collapse.
They talk about sharia law, but themselves dont know what sharia law says. They dont know that law proposed by groups like Taliban will pull them back into destitution and stone ages. In fact what is interesting is intially Taliban was welcomed in Afganistan as well, till the time people realise what their true face was. So soon who propose fundamentalism and sharia law in pakistan will have to face the music. Pakistan is a sinking ship, and all we need to do is to distance ourselves from them.

Posted by Prithviraj | Report as abusive
 

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