Kashmir violence drops further, but where’s the peace?

February 4, 2009

Violence in Kashmir is down to its lowest level since the separatist revolt began in 1989, but peace remains a distant prospect in one of the world’s most beautiful regions.

The Delhi-based Institute of Conflict Studies which tracks militant violence across South Asia says 541 people were killed in militant-linked violence in 2008, continuing the declining trend from the previous year when fatalities had fallen to 777. That was well below the 1,000 mark  used to define a high-intensity conflict and way lower than the 2001 peak of 4,507 deaths in a single year.

Just for purposes of comparison on a broad level, a separate analysis by the Institute shows that the number of people killed in militant-related violence in Pakistan hit 6,715 in 2008 from a 2003 figure of 189, reflecting a dramatic deterioration in the security situation.

So, as Pakistan fights the militants in its most serious internal challenge yet, some of whom it fostered to fight Indian forces in Kashmir, is peace at hand in the Himalayan region ?

Not by a long shot , going by the steady stream of street protests that seem to go off every now and then. Last year’s demonstrations, the biggest since the revolt began, over a government decision to hand over land near a Hindu shrine deep in Kashmir to a trust now seem to have become a watershed, giving new life to a movement that was despairing.

And because it is a street campaign, a sort of a non-violent struggle, it could be potentially more challenging to the Indian state than the guns and grenades of the militants, say Kashmiri leaders.

“India is not scared of any guns here in Kashmir – it has a thousand times more guns,” Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, a leader of the All Parties Hurriyat Conference, told the Wall Street Journal in this report in December.

“What it is scared of is people coming out in the streets, people seeing the power of nonviolent struggle.”

Is this really a civil disobedience movement, a leaf from Mahatma Gandhi’s book thrown in the face of those who rule India in his name?

{Reuters pictures of Gulmarg in Kashmir and a protest in Srinagar}

117 comments

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“India is not scared of any guns here in Kashmir – it has a thousand times more guns,”

True,very true. The more Kashmiris believe on militancy,the more stronger will it bind itself physically with India. Non-Violence is the only option.

Posted by pk | Report as abusive

Kashmiris would have achieved their rights by now if they had trusted on Non-Violence. Very Unfortunately,they depended on militancy which only killed them in turn. I wonder whether such huge amount of deaths would have occurred if Pakistan never used militancy as a state policy. The fact that Pakistan is trying very hard to extinguish the flames it had started is a tough warning to any groups in the world that use violence to achieve their aims.

Posted by mitchell | Report as abusive

I urge every Indian to read the opinion and editorial column in the Pakistani Newspaper Dawn. There only can we see the real face of Pakistan.

I quote from the editorial,”Meanwhile, militancy, again using the idiom of Islam, grew in the whole country. This time, again, the state and its agencies were at fault. The basic idea was that if fighters were sneaked across the Line of Control in Kashmir India would bleed so much that it would come to the negotiating table. On the side these fighters also indulged in sectarian vendettas so that neither mosques frequented by Sunnis nor Shia imambargahs remained safe. What did Pakistan gain as a result? Not an inch of Kashmir but the possibility of being declared a ‘terrorist state’ and the perpetual fear of a war with India.”

http://www.dawn.com/2009/02/04/ed.htm#5

Posted by mitchell | Report as abusive

No-violence protests are ideal and have a better chance of influencing the public opinion outside of Kasmir.

Quote from one the links “Waving green Islamic flags and shouting “we want freedom”, hundreds of thousands of Muslims marched peacefully in Indian Kashmir’s main city on Friday, resuming some of the biggest protests in two decades against Indian rule.”
—–The chance of independent Kashmir remains a near impossibility since it has become a Muslim Kasmir issue–not a Kashmir issue. Kashmiris did not set their priorities right, participated/promoted/silently watched in the genocide/exodus of Kasmiri Pundits. The generation of teenager protesters do not even know that. It is 2 deacde too late and asking for the wrong Kasmir.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

“India is not scared of any guns here in Kashmir – it has a thousand times more guns,” Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, a leader of the All Parties Hurriyat Conference, told the Wall Street Journal in this report in December.

—Someone gotta tell that creep that non-violence is not a sly terrorist weapon, rather a conviction…which is too hot for violent minded barbarians to wield…

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

What a shameful collection of hypocritical posts! You subject Kashmir to violence by keeping it under military occupation since 1947, then tell them to adopt non-violence to end the occupation. The non-violent solution has always been there, in the form of UN resolutions requiring a plebscite, but India never allowed this non-violent solution to take place. By shutting out the non-violent avenues, India has driven the Kasmiris to violence, so it does not deserve any sympathy when it suffers the consequences.

Posted by Sharafat | Report as abusive

Whatever happens are tentative only, unless the infiltration is not stopped, and every anti-elements in Kashmir must be kicked-out of India, otherwise India cannot achieve anything.
Pakistan has already setup a proxy people in Kashmir, Indian government must take some stringent measure to eliminate them.

Posted by Blogger | Report as abusive

Good to know that Kashmiris have a right to protest peacefully in a a democratic country. I bet they would have been slaughtered if it was not a democracy. Democracy and political participation can achieve milestones that a violent struggle cannot.

Posted by Jerry | Report as abusive

AS the proud Kashmiri in the picture holding the poster:

LISTEN INDIA!!!

YOU CAN KILL US, RAPE OUR WOMEN, KILL OUR YOUNG MEN, PUT OUR LEADERS IN CELLS, PAINT A ROSY PICTURE FOR THE WORLD BUT THE BOTTOM LINE IS — YOU CAN NOT BREAK US…

You did NOT achieve it for the last 60years and will NEVER do so too….

Kashmir for all KASHMIRIS SO indian dogs go to hell!!!

and get out of our beautiful kashmir!!!!

Posted by Ali | Report as abusive

If the same money the seperatist leaders spend on pulling crowds to protest in kashmir were spent on development, there would have been far better roads, employment and industrial development..people would have had nothing to cry about..if the people had maintained the valleys peace there would have been no troops in srinagar..seperatist mind set is the cause for todays apathy the people of kashmir are in.Be it loss of the public property, the curfew imposed to maintain peace or the genocide of kashmiri pandits all because of foolish seperatist ideology.
Just being a muslim do not give food, clothes or shelter nor does it give right to people to ask for breaking the country..Once people are mature enough to think on realistic lines to realize religon is not more important than life itself and turn their back to the seperatist idealogies, can they think of development.
The protesting people have proved time and again that they are occupied with immature thinking where they have Islam as proirity over development and well being.
Their demands to carve out kashmir from India is foolish suicidal and unjustified.

Posted by Anitha | Report as abusive

What did Kashmiris achieve by their non-violent struggle from 1948-1989 ? Nothing. The poor poeple still live under the boots of the Indian Army.

@ – The poor poeple still live under the boots of the Indian Army.

Bangash Khan Army in general is there to protect our country..If few people start being anti-Indian.then where do you think they will live ?? Parliament ?? lol
under the army boots.

Posted by Anitha | Report as abusive

Sharafat
“…so it does not deserve any sympathy when it suffers the consequences.”

—The consequences are borne by the innocent citizens of Kashmir…at the hands of Pakistani terrorists.

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

Tibet is being flooded with Han Chinese in a deliberate attempt to alter the ethnic makeup of Tibet. (OPPOSITE OF KASHMIR where Hindus who have lived there for thousands of years have been expelled by T..s)

Tibetan spiritual leader lives in exile and their religious, and cultural symbols are being destroyed by Chines. (OPPOSITE OF KASHMIR where there is total freedom of religion and expression)

YET,no one shows any urgency to address the oppression of Tibetan Buddhists. One doesn’t see articles like “where is peace in Tibet”

Could this be because there are no Buddhists going around shooting and bombing unarmed civilians in train stations, hotels, trains and buses?

Sharafat: You are wrong that “India never allowed this non-violent solution to take place”. I do not know whether you are from India, Pak, or POK. India (Nehru) went through UN route—deciding the fate of kashmir by plebiscite by kashmiri people. India could have very well said: we have it so go to hell; but did not (despite such suggestions at that time). Why because Nehru trusted in this (HYPOCRITICAL) UN and Pak. So there must be some reason that this process did not happen. He passed away in 1964 (17yrs after UN resolution) and was in power while Pak witnessed all the dictatorships/coups. Pak waged overt and covert wars, started/supported the militancy and change the demeogaphics of Kashmir. Pakistan never let the India-Pak relations to settle down; turned this into Kashmir issue into religion issue.

“India has driven the Kashmiris to violence”
— It is Pakistan (not India) that has driven the Kashmiris to violence -from day 1 in 1947 invasion/raid by pak army and subsequent imposed wars on India by Pak, not to forget the proxy wars. Terrorists are mainly from Pakistan, subcontracted to kill innocents. Any person worth his salt would not call this mindless terrorism as freedom struggle. Remember the faces of Indian freedom fighters and you will know. Which one you recall for Kashmir? All I recall is paid killers with no faces. India was never an aggressor against kasmiris.

So where does this your “India never allowed this non-violent solution to take place” statement fits in? India is not in a mood to create another Islamic (of Kashmir) republic next door, especially the one without true Kashmiri people including Kashmiri Pundits. Remember the genocide of thousand and exodus of 500,000 Kashmiris with the help of Pak-supported terrorists. Kashmiri Hindus were asked to choose between Convert, Flee or Perish. “agar Kashmir me rahna hei, to allah ho akbar kahna hei” slogan was shouted at that time. Irrespective of UN resolution, frankly spearking Kashmiris of today do not deserve an Independent Kashmir for a very simple reason that they did not support their fellow minority Hindu brother/sisters. UN-wise, demographics have changed; so what plebiscite are you talking about. Indian Army was not there until militancy started and now everybody complains. Everybody condemns violence and is sympathetic towards innocent kashmiris. Pakistan pretends to support the cause of independent Kashmir—that’s a joke! Just look at so-called bogus Azad Kashmir. Pakistan is like a leach sucking the natural resources (water) of POK. This is called hypocrisy.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Mitcell,
http://www.dawn.com/2009/02/04/ed.htm#5
is a good article.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Sharafat
“India has driven the Kasmiris to violence”
– If at all India would have done such an act, then probably you wouldn’t have found a single non-indian kashmiri in the valley.
It is Pakistan and not India. Everyone knows yet hate to accept it. Truth is always a bitter, lies are sweeter :P

Posted by Blogger | Report as abusive

What did Kashmiris achieve by their non-violent struggle from 1948-1989 ? Nothing. The poor poeple still live under the boots of the Indian Army.
- Posted by Bangash Khan

——Smarty pants, I am glad you asked. NOTHING. WHY? it needs peaceful atmosphere to sit around the table. Pakistan made sure it does not happen by raiding Kashmir in 1947, 1965 war and then 1971 and Kargill. Do not forget the proxy wars (promoting Sikh terrorism is one example; was not that before 1989?). I hope that explains.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

After Sep11 2001 Pakistan pulled the rug from the Jihadis in the IOK. Therefore the violence went right down which is agreeable by most idots on this forum. So after 8 long years of non-violence what have the Kashmiris achieved –

- Still same number of indian cowrard army.
- We have rape, staged killings.
- Puppet regime installed to enhance delhi’s intrest.
- The valley was cut off from rest of india by the Jammu
Hindu Terrorist.
- Most of the leaders were put into cells whilst the
so called peacefull elcetion were being held.
- Even to this day they still behind bars.
- India was lost for words when the peace loving Kashmiris turned up in the capital with one voice – AZADI – FREEDOM. and still have nightmares of how many had Paki flags clearly expressing their desire to be part of Pakistan.

Let me tell all the idiots:

That people of Kashmir are part of people of Pakistan!!

In flesh
In next of kin
In religion
In culture
In Geograpgy
In History

So i am sorry idiots you have plenty of land already to train your hindu fanatics and to opress other minorties. Opress even your own fellow hindus forget the rrights of indian muslims who are picked on even if pakistan wins a CRICKET match. How immature, educated, senless and war monger indians are.

For few idiots to say you can NOT ask for independence becaues you are Muslim why NOT– Isnt that why Pakistan were created and even the evil Brits understood what the hindu fanatics had in their mind. To rule muslims exactly what the muslims have doen in india and still are in Kashmir.

Posted by Ali | Report as abusive

Rajeev wrote:
“Pakistan made sure it does not happen by raiding Kashmir in 1947, 1965 war and then 1971 ”

with due respect I differ on this, look at history and get your facts straight. It was India that forcibly annexxed Kashmir, the hindu Maharaja of Kashmir had no right to decide the fate of muslim Kashmiris. Kashmir remains a dispute underscored by Barack Obama and David Milliband. They urged India cooperation knowing millitancy will not cease until occupation of Kashmir ends. Let the UN resolutions be implemented in Kashmir.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

I feel India is always playing with time and feels that somehow few peacefull days will win the hearts of the Kashmiris.

I am sorry the Kashmiris dont have a fish like memory they will NEVER forget the blood of over 70,000 Kashmiris brothers who sacrificed their lifes for a independent kashmir.

Have the indians forgot already the biggest demonstration held in the valley against the evil indian rule. All kashmiris from all walks of life and ages gathered with one voice and aksed for “AZADI” “FREEDOM”.

If Indians have already forgot what freedom means that what you got from the British and we are still waiting to be independent. Inshalla one day India can KILL his ARREST us but can NEVER break the WILL of Kashmiris.

Long Live Kashmir and kashmir for all Kashmiris…

Posted by Hussain | Report as abusive

Just read a line below “Waving green Islamic flags and shouting “we want freedom”.. really turely good…try that in some other place other than India and come back with the results mate !!

Posted by Prashant | Report as abusive

The problem in Kashmir is political one. Every other issue India Pakistan wars, human rights issues, terrorism are a manifestation of it. Had Pakistan not adopted terrorism as a state policy, Kashmir would have been long resolved by now.

India deployed its troops in Kashmir only when it was necessary; for instance the troops were deployed during border wars with Pakistan and the militant insurgency from Pakistan that started in 1989. In fact, the troop levels in some sections of Kashmir are already drawn down.

Pakistanis who are harping about plebiscite – or lack there of – quickly forget the Paki follies before blaming India. In 1948 both Pakistan and India did not agree on the pre-conditions to carry a UN plebiscite in Kashmir. They still dont! Consequently, the burden falls on both the countries.

Posted by Nikhil | Report as abusive

Long Live Kashmir and kashmir for all Kashmiris…

- Posted by Hussain

—-We Indians are fed up with rants from you guys—I am atleast. Who are all Kashmiris? I have asked 10-times to several Pak bloggers and all you say is Azadi. If you are a kashmiri in India, where were you when 500,000 Hindus fleed and genocide of thousands. Azaid for whom (muslims only) by whom (terrorists from Pak) for whom (not for Kashmiri Pundits for sure) ????????????????????????????????????
demographics????????????????????????????

India has had enough and will not accept another Islamic republic (of Kashmir) next door.

Forget it. Muslims in Kashmir have guaranteed in collaboration with Pakistani professional killers have made sure they do not achieve their cause.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp  ?page=200925\story_5-2-2009_pg3_1

The killing fields of Dera Ismail Khan in the NWFP claimed more victims on Tuesday as a grenade attack killed one man and wounded 18 others inside a Sunni mosque. The attacker hurled the hand grenade at the worshippers during evening prayers, causing a stampede and leading to more injuries. This is not a good sign because heretofore it was the Shia community in DI Khan that bore the brunt of attacks from banned Sunni sectarian organisations aligned with the Taliban in the neighbouring territory of South Waziristan.

As if this was not enough worry, the Baloch Republican Army (BRA) owned Tuesday the cold-blooded murder of five Punjabis in Noshki and Mastung districts of Balochistan, saying it was “retaliation for the firing by security forces on a wedding ceremony in Dera Bugti”. The target in Noshki was the shop owned by a Punjabi settler for generations which had been attacked earlier too. In Mastung, the victim was an innocent man standing at a bus stop. In the past few days, Punjabis have become victims of terrorism, including one in Quetta, for violence allegedly committed by the law enforcement agencies against the Baloch. A BRA spokesman told the press, “We will carry out attacks on all Punjabis wherever they live in Balochistan. We do not tolerate Punjabis on our land. It is the Punjabi forces attacking our people”.

There is more bad news. Layyah in Punjab is seeing a repeat of what an educational institution did to its Ahmedi students in Faisalabad last year: a movement led by the uncle of the local MNA wants 10 Ahmedi students expelled from a private tuition centre because of allegations of blasphemy against four students. Handbills distributed in the village ask the Ahmedis to leave the place by February 9 because their four children allegedly wrote blasphemous things on the walls of the latrines of a local mosque. The Layyah police say there are no witnesses and no evidence against the accused and, what is most alarming, the imam of the mosque admits that a false case has been registered by the police under pressure from a group of people that include the local head of the banned Jama’at-ud Dawa and some local journalists.

Nikhil
One cannot have a better leader than Nehru for Kashmir issue. He was alive 17yrs after UNresolution while Pak was going through wild ride plus a raid on Kashmir (this is all before 1964 yr of his death). Look back at his statements yr after yr -he was for whatever Kashmiris want. Now who are the kashmiris? A society that deserves will get what it deserves–it did mot want kashmir, it wanted Islamic Kashmir. FORGET IT. This terrorism violence all around the country is not going to do a thing to solve. are they kidding.

It is Pakistan who cannot live without trouble and wants it brewing.

I have no idea how much common sense one needs to understand that are you hitting yourself or someone else. Kashmiri people just lost it.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Long Live Kashmir and kashmir for all Kashmiris…

- Posted by Hussain

To continue from last post:
1. If you are a kashmiri in India, where were you when 500,000 Hindus fleed and genocide of thousands and did not support your fellow non-Muslims, majority being Pundits.
2. if you are in bigus Azad Kashmir, see what Pak has given you, a PM from Rawalpindi Punjab, did nothing for Kashmiri. Its a taking more giving less to POK. There is endless list. All Pak has given you is common religion and pretend Muslim brotherhood and do not complain concept. I have heard Kashmiris from POK, they envy Kashmir in India. Read my other posts if you can find and see the comparisons.

3. if you are a pakistani: you are a hypocrite. Gifting terrorism, rather imposing it on Indian Kashmiris, wars, covert.overt wars, atrocities on Indian Kashmiris. Yes you will see cherry pick the stories of Indian soldiers only.

A completely independent Kashmir is not at all a possibility.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Most of the anti-india sentiment is based out of Srinagar. Proof: See the recent voting pattern.

Laddhakis want to stay with india, Jammuites want to stay with india, Kashmiri Pandits(outside kashmir and few remaining in Kashmir) want to stay with India. The remaining few Kashmiris must realize that they are moving in a one-way street. They have no choice but to integrate themselves with India. As long as they move with the traffic they will do just fine. Any misadventure to run against the traffic well lead them to tragic results.

Some fundamental principles of India, like democracy, secularism, are not negotiable. Same way Territorial integrity is also not negotiable. India will not tolerate any more partition. PERIOD!

For those interested in neutral account of Kashmir dispute here is the link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashmir_pro blem
Here is the story in nutshell
1) Kashmir king undecided. Doesn’t want to join India or Pakistan.
2) Pakistani militia backed by Pak Army invade into Kashmir.
3) Kashmir King ask India to help. India cannot help till kashmir is annexed. Treaty of accession is signed.
4) Indian army moves into Kashmir and start pushing back the invaders. Nehru was against it but Patel unilaterally moved in the troops.
5) Nehru in his idealistic zeal prematurely moves to UN when Indian forces are pushing back invaders.
6) UN ask for plebiscite with condition that Pakistan moves out her army from Kashmir.
7) Pak never moved out her army so Plebiscite did not take place.
8) From 1989 demography of Kashmir is violently changed. UN plebiscite became NULLL and VOID. (Read related Kofi Annan’s statement)

Posted by chirkut | Report as abusive

with due respect I differ on this, look at history and get your facts straight. It was India that forcibly annexxed Kashmir, the hindu Maharaja of Kashmir had no right to decide the fate of muslim Kashmiris.
_–posted by Umair
—–I checked the facts and found that I am right.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Kashmir has been secular-its pandit population has been driven off-that too of around half million.There is no way India will allow its seperation come what may.After partition,Sindhi culture got torn away due to ruthless supression of pakistan-today Pandit culture will be lost.There is no way that will be allowed.Kashmir is secular and will remain secular.Kashmiris need to understand what Pakistan did to fellow Bangladeshis-killed them around a million and raped another 100000 in 1971.Thats the legacy of pAKISTAN which wants Kashmiris.Its misguided citizens are now threat to entire world

Posted by akbar | Report as abusive

One shoudl understand the whole problem and its nature

British India was splited into two countries based on Hindu and muslim poulation. Muslim leaders requested for seperate country and they got it. Further, Pakistaion was again spliteed into two countries. Even now India has got 150 millions of muslim population and they represnet 13% of India. What happened in Pakistan and Bangadesh, the minority population have reduced to such a extent. If Kashmir muslim alone want seperate mother land means once again spliting is going to happen based on religion.

What about non-muslims? Are they allowed live in expected muslim kasmir if it is allowed to seperate?

What about minority muslim living in India? Once split is confirmed whole India will see event like what happened in the 1947 partition? Is the aim of people who are looking for Kasmir partition? People who hate India want to see this kind of event.

Very few muslim majority countries are secular. Even though India partioned based on religion we are still keeping the secular India staus.

Dont try to radcalize Indian population and it is not going to help minority Indians.

Posted by Murugan | Report as abusive

If Indian security forces want to kill innocent Muslims, Muslim population in the Kashmir valley wouldn’t have increased. Kashmir extremist and terrorists did ethnic cleansing of Kashmir Pandits. Their life is jeopardized now.

Independent Kashmir for Kashmir Muslims? What about half to one million Kashmir Pandits living as refugees in India and aboard? What about Buddhists living inside Kashmir? Who is going to compensate them? Why should they have to loose their motherland? Who can provide secured life to them? Is there any guarantee?

Why Pakistanis are always talking about what is happening in India? Are minorities inside Pakistan well protected? No rape, murder, forced conversion or any other crime, no human rights violation. Don’t make fun out of others. Just look at your back. Just do small Google search you can get plenty of answer. Do they allow religious freedom, I mean religion by choice? I know Islamic law only allows other religious people to join Islam but they are not allowed to leave. This one looks like one way, once anyone inside, the door is closed. Read about UN religious freedom resolution which allows people to choose their own religion.

Is India ever tried to change the demography of the Kashmir? India is having open border, 1.1 billion people, the place is under her security forces, if she wish she can change the demography of the Kashmir within weeks? Isn’t that too difficult? That is not her aim.

Why people are talking about Plebiscite? What is the pre-condition for Plebiscite? Pakistan should withdraw its security forces from Pakistan occupied Kashmir. Why some Pakistanis and some other nationals are talking about this matter without fully reading/understanding UN resolution? I would advise them to read UN resolution first before talking such nonsense.

Pakistan wants to do play around with India. The future will answer who is going to win. Let’s wait and see.

Posted by Murugan | Report as abusive

I read someone wrote Puupet government in Kashmir. What about Pakistan? Hahah.. hahaha.. yeah, yeah Selected independently.. hahah.. and thier government always take independent solution for the good will of thier own people. hahahha. Guys first think about yourself before commenting others.

Posted by Murugan | Report as abusive

Myra,
Of course we agree that there are human rights violation in Kashmir and that Kashmiris want Azadi. But when we talk about kashmir why only talk about Indian occupied J&K,why not about the Azad kashmir or POK. In human rights Watch, they assert that there are as many violations in Azad kashmir as in Jammu and kashmir.
I quote this from hrw,”Azad Kashmir is a land of strict curbs on political pluralism, freedom of expression, and freedom of association; a muzzled press; banned books; arbitrary arrest and detention and torture at the hands of the Pakistani military and the police; and discrimination against refugees from Jammu and Kashmir state. Singled out are Kashmiri nationalists who do not support the idea of Kashmir’s accession to Pakistan. Anyone who wants to take part in public life has to sign a pledge of loyalty to Pakistan, while anyone who publicly supports or works for an independent Kashmir is persecuted. For those expressing independent or unpopular political views, there is a pervasive fear of Pakistani military and intelligence services-and of militant organizations acting at their behest or independently.”
http://www.hrw.org/en/node/11156/section  /3
They tell that Pakistan try to curb the expression of the people who are for the independence of Kashmir but not to its accession with Pakistan. Till today there is relatively little coverage of the people’s plight in Azad Kashmir compared to J&K. So isn’t pakistan also trying to curb the freedom movement of Kashmiris by curbing their freedom of expression.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashmir_Rai lway
Also India had built hydro-electric stations and railway lines between Manzhama and Anantnag even though their engineers’ life were in grave danger. They are going to connect Srinagar with the rest of India soon. Had Pakistan ever considered connecting Muzafarrabad with the rest of the nation by rail or had it at least given fundamental rights to the people of Azad kashmir for the time being? If India is suppressing Kashmiris and if they are villains, then Pakistan is also an equal culprit.

Posted by mitchell | Report as abusive

I am so sorry Sanjeev. I was supposed to address my above post to you. I mistakenly typed ‘Myra’.

Posted by mitchell | Report as abusive

We Indians are fed up with rants from you guys—I am atleast. Who are all Kashmiris? I have asked 10-times to several Pak bloggers and all you say is Azadi. If you are a kashmiri in India, where were you when 500,000 Hindus fleed and genocide of thousands. Azaid for whom (muslims only) by whom (terrorists from Pak) for whom (not for Kashmiri Pundits for sure) ????????????????????????????????????
demographics????????????????????????????

India has had enough and will not accept another Islamic republic (of Kashmir) next door.

I think you eyes must have shut and ears too when reading what i wrote I said we the Kashmiris doesnt matter what cast, religion and which part we are from.

We want independence if that is from the cowards indian army or the chineses or the Pakistanis. We Kashmiris have our own history and we have been independent before so called the mahraja of kashmir who sold the the state to india without even considering what the locals wanted.

So STOP crying you all idiots. Put it this way we will achieve our goals even if it takes hundred years. You can silence us with guns but you can NOT break the will of the kashmiris. That always was and will be to have our own independent state it doesnt need to be islamic a secular state where all minorites have rights. Not what you get in India or Paksitan and we would show you the way forward.

Its time Kashmiris had their say not what New Delhi or Islamabad wants….

Idiots how can you defend rape, murder, puppet regime, leaders put in cells, demonstrations aginst the evil indian rule and we have all seen the chants from the locals what they want. Another story of you want to put fingers in your ears because you do not want to hear the word “AZADI” FREEDOM.

Kashmir for all kashmiris an Independent secular state one not like its mother India. Its called secular but the muslims are picked on even when Pak wins a mere criket match. Shame on you idiots and grow up and how long can you oppress the kashmiris.

You kill one Maqbool Batt there are already thousands of them in kashmir to this day asking for indian cowrads to leave the region.

Posted by ali | Report as abusive

@mitchell -
Indian side story of Kashmir is highly reported because India allows better press freedom and higher democarcy unlike Pakistan, most of the time ruled by military generals.

People are not affraid to travel and express thier voice in India and also allowed to comment about Indian government. I dont know about Pakistan and thier press freedom espcially in AJK.

Kashmir issue have been continueously used as a (foreign pollicy)tool to get a bad name for India and contain its economic activites, sponser terrorism against Indians and spoil its economic activities.

Some years ago one independant survey conducted in Indian side of Kashmir. So far no survey conducted in POK.

Posted by Murugan | Report as abusive

Mitchell,
You can ask any Muslim Kashmiri. They will only say India had occupied their nation and they have to leave at once. Once India decides to move away,then everything will be automatic. As for the Human right abuses you mention,it’s a sad issue and Pakistan had to look into it.

@Ali,
“So STOP crying you all idiots” Hark! Who’s talking? :)
Only you look hysterical.

Posted by pk | Report as abusive

@Murugan,
Accept the truth,there was a fiasco in 1947 and Kashmir went to India. Our inept rulers only fueled the crisis by waging wars and engaging in cross border terrorism. I seriously disagree with any sort of violence by the locals but at the same time Indians must accept that they have occupied kashmir against people’s will.

Posted by pk | Report as abusive

@pk
Here is a lot of confusion in who is represnting whom and what they want to acheive? India and Indians think Pakistanis are over reprensting Kashmiries and Jammu and Kashmir is integral part of India, Pakistanis think kashmir people want to join with them, in the worst case atleast muslim majority area by partioning banks of Chenab river. Kashmiries express they want to have independat Kashmir state. I have no idea of who is majorirty and who is minority. Adding more fuel to this it also become major political factor for both India and Pakistan (~1.4 billion). Both parties(India and Pakistan) don’t properly educate thier citizens about Kashmir and Kashmir issue.

I think UN and human rights organization should ask both governments to teach right information about Kashmir to thier citizens. I dont think peace can be acheived by terror and violence. Only way to reach peace is non-violence. That is missing here.

Posted by Murugan | Report as abusive

Accept the truth,there was a fiasco in 1947 and Kashmir went to India. Our inept rulers only fueled the crisis by waging wars and engaging in cross border terrorism. I seriously disagree with any sort of violence by the locals but at the same time Indians must accept that they have occupied kashmir against people’s will.
- Posted by pk

PK: I agree with the 1947 kashmir mess up-but what really happened? It is funny now there is talk about “independent kashmir”. It was independent at the time of partition before pakistan army/inflirators crossed the border and India was requested to step in by Maharaja and Indian Army then stepped in. So if Pakistan would not have stepped in, it would have been independent at that time only. In that war, some of the Kashmir went to India and the other to pakistan and as if that was enough Pak gifted a portion of Kashmir to Chinese (Aksai Chin). Am I right?

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

@ALI, ALI Said:

“We Kashmiris have our own history and we have been independent before so called the mahraja of kashmir who sold the the state to india without even considering what the locals wanted.”

You ignorant glib drone, Ali! How about India, India had its own land before the British of that time, did they consider what the locals wanted before they colonized and chopped it up?? Then they partitioned all these Indian lands to muslims. All the Pakistan land belongs to India, all the way upto Afghanistan.

I never hear once, any Pakistani acknowledge the hurtful way Indian land was grabbed from our ancestral homeland, but Pakistani’s feel quite comfortable criticizing Israel. Its that Islamic Double Standard again.

Any Kashmiris who think that they will have a better life without India, why don’t you just goto Pakistan?, if you think they will treat you better and you can have a better life there? Pakistan should quit meddling in internal India affairs, it may be dangerous to your own stability. If you don’t like Pakistan or India, why don’t you just go into the ocean? There are so many opportunities for all peoples in India, I am tired of Kashmiri separatists fueled by Pakistan, causing trouble and infact bringing all sorts of horrible things to their people.

Besides, the population of India is not prepared to accede any more land away, it is politics and votes my friend. It is very unpopular with the commoner. 1.2Billion people need land.

Kashmiri goons and separatists we will stop you and rid of you, as you are traitors, siding with Pakistan and putting others ahead of your own country.

The Locals in India don’t want to give away any more free land, which is legally India’s….so live with it, or leave and get out! Goto Pakistan.

If Kashmir was given up, it would just become another Terrorist state to deal with.

So forget it. Eat your Kababs and be happy.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

@pk
Are you asking me to accept the truth? Where is the evidence? I think what you are telling is a Pakistani side of argument but so far no document has confirmed it. I read UN, wiki pedia and some other places but couldn’t find any confimration.

Posted by Murugan | Report as abusive

Only way to reach peace is non-violence.
- Posted by Murugan

—It is too late for non-violence and it is a better option for sure. Persistent non-violence is the toughest to achieve. It needs a strong leader with this philosphy-absent. Non-violence in kashmir and violence in test of India–does not work that way.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

It is good to know what Pakistan army and ISI to Azad Kashmir people. Thanks.

Here is the link

http://www.hrw.org/en/node/11156/section   /3

Posted by Murugan | Report as abusive

No land belongs to India infact it belongs to the people who live there and have been for centuries. The only difference is we had the will n courage to recognise that Islam is a true religion. So we converted NOT by sword by suffism.

You idiots want to carry on folowing status with ten legs 5 arms 3 arse holes n what not lol. Is that our fault? So go to hell my ancessotrs were from the same land and what about the indian muslims who lived in india and there forefathers were indians. India owes a lot to muslims for not only leting you practice your stupid religion but did not force you to convert.

Surely if they wanted to we ruled you monkeys for over 1000 years and we had plenty of time. I think even idiots have no choice but to agree to that if the aim was to convert all you sad idiots and your fathers n theirs we had all the time, will, power to do it. But did it happen????

The answer is NO, Islam is peaceful n no wonder even your own bollywood actor go to ajmeri sharif for blessings.

So Pakistan is for the pakistanis which is simply a new name but the peopel who are living there majority have always lived there. So to compare Pak/Israel is a living prove that you are all IDIOTS. I would have handed you a blue peter badge rajeeve you stupid monkey worshiper wake up….lol

Posted by Ali | Report as abusive

Kashmir is NOT India internal problem, it is political issue and an International issue remians to be solved.

If the lands were divided on the basis of majority Muslim states should go to Pakistan and hindu majority to India. Simply on thoses bases Kashmir should have been part of Pakistan but the indians occupied it with their coward army to this day and refuse to give self determination to the kashmiris.

Why do they have to go to pakistan they will live in kashmir and be part of it dont worry. How long can you oppress the innocent kashmiris with guns??? You will NEVER break our will we want independence or be with Pakistan. As we have nothing in common with the indians cowards who only good at raping girls, murdering young men, puting our leaders behind bars as they still there.

You can try your best to fool the world but anyone who has been to Indian Occupied Kashmir and speaks to the locals. They will be wilingly let the outsiders know what they feel about the indian cowrds army.

Go to hell Indian army we DONT want you in kashmir NEVER did. Long live kashmir n kashmiris….Long live Pakistan too…

Posted by Ali | Report as abusive

Kashmir is for kashmiris so there destiny should be decided by ALL Kashmiris. Not what the goons think in Madras/Delhi and far corners of India. What should matter what the kashmiris want isnt that the democratic way and we are exposing the mother of all democracy again.

Not implementing the UN resoultuion NOT willing to have third party to help two foolish countries to solve this issue. India knows without the third party it can do what she wants but with thiord party all her dilectory tactics would be exposed to the world.

If Indian democracy is so great then maybe it should be put to the test in Kashmir. Not by putting all the sepratist leaders behind bars and letting all the pro Delhi puppets to compete. Is that the indian democracy then go to HELL!

Posted by Hussain | Report as abusive

All indians read what the locals Kashmiri in the picture is holding!

LISTEN INDIA —-

YOU CAN KILL US!

BUT you KAN’T BREAK US……!!! all kashmiris wants indian mad dogs OUT!!!!

Posted by India Exposed! | Report as abusive

Yet another..
Pak for Kashmir resolution according to wishes of Kashmiris
http://www.geo.tv/2-5-2009/34417.htm

PM assures Kashmiris of govt’s unflinching support
http://www.geo.tv/2-5-2009/34419.htm

India banking on 9/11 to distort Kashmir issue
http://www.geo.tv/2-5-2009/34428.htm

So supporting Kashmiri equates only to Hurriyat and not a common people of Kashmir. I would say Pakistan must go on public polls in Kashmir.

Posted by Blogger | Report as abusive

…All indians read what the locals Kashmiri in the picture is holding!…

– That person in the picture looks more like Pakistani than Kashmiri.
Sorry dude, your Indian Exposure is incorrect, correct the lens and try.

Good Luck.
BTW, have you read about recent elections held in Kashmir, you’d have :)

Posted by Blogger | Report as abusive

…idiots have no choice..
…living prove that you are all IDIOTS.

– Ali ke zuban pe itna gAli :P Kudos for your fRuStRaTiOn :P

Posted by Blogger | Report as abusive

Ali Wrote:
“No land belongs to India infact it belongs to the people who live there and have been for centuries.”

Haha Ali how ignorant you are, India and Indians were right here for centuries, and centuries before your Prophet Mohd. was even in shape of a ugly zperm. If you argue the land should be given to the people living for centuries, then you are a invader here, get the hell out of our Pakistan.

Can you tell me why do you think Muslims invaders ruled us for 1000 Years ? From which date you are counting ?

You tried to convert each and every living creature on this earth to ISLAM, Not even spare animals, Your Taliban is so stupid that they are killing goats which don’t cover up their gen-itals on the other hand Paki who-rs are the cheapest in the world. You have a double standard hypocrite religion. This version of Islam is not sufism.

You can thump your chest for whatever crap you write here, but reality is You don’t have kashmir and You dont have Bangladesh too.

Go wear your suicide belt and explode in a Bus.

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive

“Of course we agree that there are human rights violation in Kashmir and that Kashmiris want Azadi. But when we talk about kashmir why only talk about Indian occupied J&K,why not about the Azad kashmir or POK. In human rights Watch, they assert that there are as many violations in Azad kashmir as in Jammu and kashmir.”
- Posted by mitchell

Mitchell: Thanks for the post, very valuable links/information about human rights issues in POK, sorry Azad Kashmir.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Ali’s “I would have handed you a blue peter badge rajeeve you stupid monkey worshiper wake up….lol”

Ali: You cannot process much information,so I won’t say much. You are like a horror movie turned into a comedy. Stop begging with your terrorist-sympathizer brain.

”Mangan Maran Saman Hai, Mat Koi Mange Beekh
Mangan Se Marna Bhala, Yeh Satguru Ki Seekh”

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Look at this web site,
http://www.islam-watch.org/

It talks about how people converted to Islam. If you have enery debate there

Posted by Murugan | Report as abusive

@Ali,
By insulting others,you are insulting our nationality. For heaven’s sake,stop using abuses.

@rajeev,
Yes I agree it was a mess up by the then impatient Pakistani army who allowed Pashtuns to invade Kashmir in the first place. I also agree if we hadn’t invaded Kashmir,there would have been a chance for independent Kashmir-because Maharaja wouldn’t have surrendered to India. But those are mistakes made by some incompetent officers,not by the people and that happened some 61 years ago. Isn’t 61 years a long time for the people to wait for their wishes to come true? What have we both done after 1948 ceasefire? Pakistan introduced Islamic terrrorism into India and India broke Pakistan into two .These are the only direct consequences of Kashmir and there is nothing to feel proud of it. (I always relate Bengal liberation as a consequence of Kashmir because we spent too much on the war)

Posted by pk | Report as abusive

@Murugan,
Well its not only in Pakistan,the neutral press also consider that Kashmir was in fact occupied against the wishes of people. I don’t know who is right among us.

To all Indians,
I think the British would have felt the same way before 1947 ,as we people feel about Kashmir now – ‘India is a part of the British Empire,why should we liberate it?’. I bet Churchill was against our independence.

Posted by pk | Report as abusive

@Ali, all Bloggers, MUST read the info on this link:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/ 2008/apr/11/protectingpakistanshindus

Animals and butchers don’t deserve a country.

Pakistan is in a much worse state than any one in the world knows.

This article is written by a muslim.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

@Ali, Bloggers, MUST READ!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemy_l aws_of_Pakistan

Ali called Hindus animals and criticized Hinduism as a religion.

Ali, based on Pakistani’s laws, if you did the same thing in India, if India even had such a law, you would be running for your life.

Thank God India is fair and just.

It is so sad that your positions are so weakly indefendable and so easily insulted, are you really so weak that you cannot take even one bit of questioning, digression or criticism? What are you afraid of? It might catch on, if people start asking and questioning things? Is that really so terrifying? Apparently so.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

“Isn’t 61 years a long time for the people to wait for their wishes to come true? What have we both done after 1948 ceasefire? Pakistan introduced Islamic terrrorism into India and India broke Pakistan into two……”
–posted by pk

pk: I agree that it does not take 61 yrs to deliver the promise made at that time. Situation has worsened now. New problems have appeeared. Plus the gegraphical nature of this area, the grwing animosity and mutual mistrust, and taking relations of India/Pak with neighbouring countries into picture. Tis is my view.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

pk
“India broke Pakistan into two……”

—No, rather Pakistan split itself into two…rendering the two nation theory obsolete, so it’s proven that Pakistan is a delusion, created by a bunch of terrorists , led by the great terrorist Jinnah…

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

Anup,

Now you’re racially profiling and revisionist exaggerating calling Pakistanis and their founding leaders terrorists. That’s weak and poor.

Jinnah likened Pakistan to Attaturk’s Turkey, a secular Muslim State. It didn’t pan out as he died in a year. He wasn’t given enough time to make a smooth transition and with too much territory still in dispute, such as Hyderabad and Kashmir, as the date for independence was pushed up.

I guess you’re just upset with the breakup of India, but there’s no need to degrade.

Posted by Saf | Report as abusive

Saf
Jinnah – Direct Action – mass murderer of 5000 innocents – a wily traitor who for his personal greed for power, joined hands with foreign forces & betrayed & splintered his country( when the seed is such what to say of it’s fruits) – a religious bigot, who ordered the massacre of a million humans after usurping their land, women & wealth, all in the name of religion- The Kashmir invasion of 1948, stands testimony as him being the first Terrorist of this region…Pakistan is just living up to it’s legacy. His share in history shall always be alongside-Mir Jaffer.

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

Saf
“That’s weak and poor.”
-I hope you found it strong enough.

“Jinnah likened Pakistan to Attaturk’s Turkey…”
Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, liberated his beloved country, Jinnah sold his country…

It didn’t pan out as he died in a year.
—Things wouldn’t have been any different, probably worser…

“…still in dispute,,…”
—- POK, Northern Areas, territories of Rann of Kutch, Sashken, Baluchistan, Waziristan…

“you’re just upset with the breakup of India…”
—Not at all! Just voicing the truth as it is….

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

@anup

Jinnah was a secular politician; he hated mullahs & the relationship was mutual. He wanted Pakistan to be just like its eastern neighbour; except for one difference:that Muslims would be in the majority. He was secular to the core & counted Ataturk of Turkey as his hero. Clearly,he was one of the most visionary leaders the subcontinent has ever had.

Posted by Qasim | Report as abusive

@ “Jinnah was a secular politician”

– This is in direct conflict of what happened..If he were secular why would he want a seperate muslim country ?? This action proves he was a non-believer in secularism.

Posted by Anitha | Report as abusive

Our beloved leader Mr Jinnah was a peace loving person who was in the same partiy as Mr Gandu sorry gandi and the rest of the crew.

What mr jinnah asked from the hindu fanatic leaders was a guarntee that muslims will have all the rights as any other indian. Have a agreement which would protect muslim intrest in india that goes from law n order to ecnomics and various other points.

But Hindu fanatic leaders did NOT give a proper response and were unwilling to guarntee the safety of the muslims.

Thats when Jinnah joined Muslim Conference so ALL the idots know too well what happened to muslims in gujrat the murderers are still walking talking and in their high seats in the government. Which is hardley a great advertisement for the biggest democracy in the world, my footit is!

What hapened to babri mosque…wernt they the real hindu terrorists?

What hapened in Gujrat?….wernt they the real hindu terrorists?

when the partyiotion happened the hindu terrorist murdered inncocent children and cut off women breast on the trains bound for Lahore???…werent they hindu terrorist???

Sorry idiots can only see the world from one angle and that is BJP angle the hindu terrorist angle.

Hindu terrorists had a dream of ruling the muslims as we have ruled the monkey worshipeers for over thousands years. They thought they had the best chance ti implement the idea but a great leader in the name of jinnah did not only convince the brioish and the whole world why he wanted pakistan.

So ALL you idiots go to hell with your Gandu leaders. Pakistan is here to stay and if ever we go dont worry we will make sure india goes with us and we have enough firepower to do that doesnt matter which hole you are going to hide in.

So be rest assured PAKISTAN is on the map and has been and will be…as of india with over 50 sepratist movements No guarntees as Mr manmohin said india greatest security threat is from the maoist rebels and what he meant was the over 50 sepratist movement in india.

Neither treatment of muslims, christians and even the hindu low caste is a great advert of the indian democracy….thanks

Posted by Ali | Report as abusive

Looks like some idiots are losing there mind oh well thats the aim of the game.

Indian for idiots

Kashmir for kashmiris-does not include hindu terrorist who have moved to kashmir by the way lol

Pakistan for pakis….

Paki Power yeh….idiots bark but no action what happened to all the threats we will do a surgical strike lol just threats hallow threats no substance as always indians are incompetent.

Posted by Ali | Report as abusive

Anup….

Anup have you already forgottin that your granny use to dance in the mujras for the delight of the muslim rulers? ask her she still remebers i bet u and ask her how she was treated first hand account lol by the way not what you read in your bogus books.

“you’re just upset with the breakup of India…”
—Not at all! Just voicing the truth as it is…. thats what you wrote i can see crying tears of blood. It was your incompotent leaders like mr gandu and few others that could not even guarntee muslims their rights.

I believe that mr Jinnah knew then what people like you had in mind…so he got a seprate land for the muslims. To this day we put our hand up and pray and thank him..

If he did not we know how the hindus treat the muslims inindia….how many examples do i have to give to let the idiots know…

Gujjrat….Kashmir…….Christians…..Churches ….Mosques…..Golden temple the holliest sikh shrine….samjutta train and many many more.

This is tghe work of hindu terrorist and we kane wait till india sends its incompotent army to afghnistan kos they wouldnt know whwere to run r hide. The only way back to india is throuh pakistan so we look forwards to that encounter.

Go to hell all HIndu terrorist!!!!!

Posted by Ali | Report as abusive

Ali,
You are calling Gandhi by words? What a pity? :( I wonder what conclusion will people draw about Pakistan just from your abuses?

I agree with Quasim. I had heard Jinnah wanted to be secular but unlike India there were few leaders for Pakistan .Even those who were highly influential like Frontier Gandhi were actually pro-India. Obviously Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan spent a large time in Pakistani prison even after the partition. Putting good people into prisons and letting power hungry morons to take high positions in the army,do we expect them to lead the country better? I don’t think it is right to attack Jinnah again after a long time,damage to Jinnah’s Pakistan had been done by Zia-Ul-Haq’s policy of Islamization of Pakistan.

Posted by mitchell | Report as abusive

Ali is just sour grapes. His country is falling apart, his country has an uncertain future, questionable history. At present Pakistan has created IT specialists only..that is International Terrorism.

By the way, India should create its own Sikh Khalistan movement, they should make Khalistan in Pakistan, since Pakistan stole and occupied most of their Punjabi homeland, so feel free to leave, and give it back to the punjabi Sikhs.

Your hero Jinnah was a pork eater, yes, he actually was, he had concubines, stole, was corrupt and advocated violence against Hindus. Our Gandhi on the other hand, was monogamous (barely even saw his wife), was vegetarian, pacifists and said all peoples are your brothers. You are lucky Gandhiji did not advocate violence, it is the only reason why Pakistan even exists, there would have been a butcher of mythic proportions, if Gandhi advocated violence, there would not have been enough people to even create Pakistan. So, stuff that one in your coconut between your shoulders.

As you sleep, your country slowly comes apart. Enjoy your last few years or at most a decade of peace, while you can. You will be begging for India to give you a place to sleep.

Ali..just go away, do some homework, shut down a madrasa and go and enjoy a Peshawari Kebab.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

Maybe the educated youth in Kashmir want to live in peace. I read a june 2008 BBC article which tells about the changing perceptions of the Kashmiri youth. Syed Ali Shah Geelani comapres the modernity in Kashmir to cultural aggression. I quote from the article

“He admits that a large number of youth have moved away from the separatist movement.

“Our youth are being led astray by India, our students are being taken out of Kashmir on education tours and they are being mislead. We are being subjected to cultural aggression.” ”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/74 71050.stm

Posted by mitchell | Report as abusive

What the West and India call modernization and education, the Islamicists call it “cultural aggression” and “erosion of Islamic Values”. What the west calls

You cannot negotiate with animals who view everything with an upside point of view. What Islamicists call Terrorism by India, India and the rest of the world calls it fighting terrorism, jihadism and aggression.

Islamicists are retrograde and deserve no mercy, no negotiation, they deserve what they want…a jihad and a death in jihad they shall always find for themselves.

These people have no humanity, no sense of rationality, no love in their hearts, no sense of who God really is, no sense of universal right or wrong, no sense of what the world lying means, no sense of what it means to kill another.

The only thing these people respect is a firm hand and an american cruise missile, bearing down on them at 1,200 mph.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

ha ha, Kothewalli ?? is that so ??so did ali’s grandpa from persia cleaning horse parts that he brought to trade along with kothewalli ??

Posted by Anitha | Report as abusive

Anup,

As for your statements:

“Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, liberated his beloved country, Jinnah sold his country…”

Anup, that’s an opinion NOT fact. Sold the country to who and how? That doesn’t make sense. Sold out by being betraying government secrets? Sold to the Chinese? What does that mean? Sold the idea of Pakistan, then yea, he created a new Nation on the basis of secularism and modernization. Attaturk recognized his Muslim heritage however believed in European modernization. Attaturk had the pleasure of running Turkey for 15 years to Jinnah’s 1 year.

“Things wouldn’t have been any different, probably worser…”

Again, an Opinion…nothing factual. How can you claim it was going to get worser basing on ONE YEAR??

“POK, Northern Areas, territories of Rann of Kutch, Sashken, Baluchistan, Waziristan…”

And that just backs up my argument for the little time had for such disputes. By no means does it negate my observation.

“Not at all! Just voicing the truth as it is…”

I’m sorry, it sounded more opinion than truth. As to your earlier post which may show the hurt I was alluding to about the country being split:

“a wily traitor who for his personal greed for power, joined hands with foreign forces & betrayed & splintered his country”

Clearly this is a stick. And here’s the full post:

“Jinnah – Direct Action – mass murderer of 5000 innocents – a wily traitor who for his personal greed for power, joined hands with foreign forces & betrayed & splintered his country( when the seed is such what to say of it’s fruits) – a religious bigot, who ordered the massacre of a million humans after usurping their land, women & wealth, all in the name of religion- The Kashmir invasion of 1948, stands testimony as him being the first Terrorist of this region…Pakistan is just living up to it’s legacy. His share in history shall always be alongside-Mir Jaffer.”

Yes Anup, Jinnah arranged an Al Qaeda type operation to get 5000 people killed in Calcutta. Very observant….NOT. The deaths of Direct Action Day had more to do with inept management by all people in the locality. It reinforced the proof of the simmering relations between the religious groups. It was to be a peaceful protest that turned sour, even though it had successfully proceeded elsewhere, but after the event it became worse due to revenge attacks all around.

Joined hands with foreign forces? Dude, like the British joined anyone’s hands! Pulled up the separation date, not sending in the army, not granting proper arrangements don’t seem much like good friendship. If in any case they were more pro-Nehru.

Jinnah demanded a Muslim state after his demand for seats were rejected, and when offered PM he rejected it unlike told on your side where Congress were against it which is true initially but relented but got shot down.

Ordered a massacre of a million people? ORDERED? Religious? And I thought Pakistanis exaggerated or made up stuff. Anup you’re comments have become less credible in my eyes.

Jinnah like Mir-Jaffer. Spare me. Jinnah was trying to create a new state, Jaffer wanted to become king.

Mir-Jaffer was arrogant,opportunistic and ambitious and a betrayer, but I really don’t care much for Siraj-ud-Daulah being screwed by anyone. Anyways there’s no similarity except for the flow of hate and contempt you have for Jinnah. There’s really nothing I can do or say to change it…and I know Ali and Qasim definitely won’t help!

Posted by Saf | Report as abusive

Anitha,

Turkey was a ‘Musalaman’ country with majority Muslims which Ataturk recognized. However he wanted religion separate from government. This was the same case with Jinnah. The idea being you can be Muslim as long as you don’t bring it to government. The same for the Western world.

Your question is good as it leads to the question ‘if society is secular then why not live together?’. And to me the only answer is that he believed that Muslims and Hindus were too different to be, and wanted a separate glorious secular ‘Muslim’ state, but without the religion. He viewed Muslims as an ethnic group rather than a religious group. However this is an opinion and only experts can nail down the definition and categories his vision falls under.

Though your conclusion of ‘non-secular’ is not wrong, as creating a new state for one set of particular people is not a pre-requisite for secularism. But then can you have a secular state with one type of ethnic or religious group?

Ali and Qasim,

You don’t realize the relationship Gandhi had with Jinnah, and you shouldn’t be attacking a man who somehow through ritual symbolism convinced Nehru’s government to hand over a payment that was rightfully Pakistan’s, during war time. Your insults are a shame, degrading and should immediately stop.

Global Watcher

Are you on the same planet as Ali and Qasim?

“Your hero Jinnah was a pork eater, yes, he actually was, he had concubines, stole, was corrupt and advocated violence against Hindus”

Please read my previous post in regards to Jinnah’s character, provided in the link below, in December. That goes for all you guys.

http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2008/1 2/26/india-aiming-for-diplomatic-encircl ement-of-pakistan/comment-page-4/

Concubines? Get real Globe, if Jinnah was all that then there’s plenty of serious out of context integrity flaws that can be taken for Gandhi such as kid love, playing on religious superstitions, killing Bhagath Singh, etc. Pretty much all crap if you see it in that view.

Posted by Saf | Report as abusive

Saf,

Here is the few first lines spoken by Jinahh after formation of pakistan

““The constitution of Pakistan has yet to be framed by the Pakistan Constituent Assembly. I do not know what the ultimate shape of this constitution is going to be, but I am sure that it will be of a democratic type, embodying the essential principle of Islam. Today, they are as applicable in actual life as they were 1,300 years ago. Islam and its idealism have taught us democracy. It has taught equality of man, justice and fairplay to everybody. We are the inheritors of these glorious traditions and are fully alive to our responsibilities and obligations as framers of the future constitution of Pakistan. In any case Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic State to be ruled by priests with a divine mission. We have many non-Muslims –Hindus, Christians, and Parsis –but they are all Pakistanis. They will enjoy the same rights and privileges as any other citizens and will play their rightful part in the affairs of Pakistan”

Now making a constitution on the lines of Islam and asking people of other faith to follow it. When India went on to provide special quotas to ensure the growth and development of minorities, Jinahh smartly cut out any kinda protection to minorities all the while when he knew the minority interests will be supressed. If he didn’t knew that he wouldn’t have spoken those lines.
Can a secular democratic country has constitution framed based on a particular religion ??
It that happens it simply means it do not respect or take other religions in to account.

Posted by Anitha | Report as abusive

Dear Ali,
You constantly distort the name “Gandhi” to “look at your post”

Here is an article from Dawn’s Jawed Naqvi, who I find is critical of India (that’s his job so it is OK). Even he writes this about Gandhi.

http://www.dawn.com/weekly/jawed/2009020 2.htm
Important quotes relevant to you are:
“But the plot to kill Gandhi was hatched on Jan 13 when he began a fast to press a point in favour of Pakistan. It is disheartening that Pakistani schoolchildren, in fact, even their Indian counterparts, are kept in the dark about the reasons for the plotters to kill him.”

“How many schoolchildren or even adult Pakistanis know the reason why Gandhi became the target of Godse’s sinister plot? That fact is that before he was killed, Gandhi was protesting against the refusal by the Indian government to transfer Rs550 million it owed Pakistan.”

“He got India to release the money and broke his fast, not unaware that his support for Pakistan could cost him his life. So that was at least part of the reason why they killed him.”

Instead of being respectful to him, you in your ignorance are distorting his name.
This is just an example of you ignorance and arrogance and is reflected in many of your posts.

Allah Hafiz

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

“Paki Power yeh….idiots bark but no action what happened to all the threats we will do a surgical strike lol just threats hallow threats no substance as always indians are incompetent.”
- Posted by Ali

Ali,
Good point finally. India thought about that and then saw Pakistan is doing the same job, why to waste ammunition and it is quite surgical–I mean beheadings….lol
We are playing Gandhi until needed and will play Bhagat Singh, Azad and Uddham Singh, Mangal Pandey and Abdul Hamid when required. Don’t be so impatient.

And yes we are proud of our Muslim brothers. Talking about the “Allah-Hu-Akbar…..” war cry, here is my school time hero Havildar ABDUL HAMID, who destroyed 7 Pak Tanks in 1965 India-Pak war and gave up his life for the nation and was decorated with Param Vir Chakar. This is called democracy and secularism Ali—–beyond your narrowminded vision. check this out for Abdul Hamid;s achievements in 1965.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_Qua rter_Master_Havildar_Abdul_Hamid

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

“By the way, India should create its own Sikh Khalistan movement, they should make Khalistan in Pakistan, since Pakistan stole and occupied most of their Punjabi homeland, so feel free to leave, and give it back to the punjabi Sikhs.”
-posted by Global watcher

This suddenly bring so many comparisons.
1. Pakistan Punjab is full of terrrists with few innocents in it. Paki Punjabis have such a bad reputation (because of terrorists). Look at Indian Punjab, it is so much respected and is vibrant and floursihing after overcoming Paki-supported Khalistan militancy.

2. Kashmir, Look at the POK. what is there terrorist training camps, a damn that kicked Kashmiris out of jobs, a bogus title “Azad Kashmir” with one of the most oppressive places. Indian Kashmir, once again has violence supported by Paki Punjabi militants (committed genocide/exodus of kashmiri Pundits) and not allowing innocent Kashmiris to live in peace.India has given Kashmir a special status and spending laods of money on Pakistan development. Indian Kashmiris have access to all the great education institutions and so manu job opportunities and a sincere effort to establish a political process and have Kashmiri CM unlike Azad Kashmir with Punjabi PM.
3, India decorated Frontier Gandhi (a Pakistani Citizen), who believed in non-violence, with highest civial award Bharat Ratan. On the other hand Pakistanis put him in prison and tortured.
His last words to Gandhi and his erstwhile allies in the Congress party (before partition) were: “You have thrown us to the wolves.”(i.e.Pakistan). Well Pakistan proved him right by killing thousand of “Khudai Khimatgars” and also imprisoned Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan after partition for 2 decades and tortured. This is what he said after coming out of pak prison “I had to go to prison many a time in the days of the Britishers. Although we were at loggerheads with them, yet their treatment was to some extent tolerant and polite. But the treatment which was meted out to me in this Islamic state of ours was such that I would not even like to mention it to you.”

There are so many examples of bad things happening when it gets tagged with Pakistan (sorry peaceful Pakistanis but that’s the truth).

Lesson to Kashmiris: Quit this violence and pledge to remain with India peacefully. And I forgot one thing that a part of Kashmir in Pak was sold to Chinese.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

I have one question for Paki bloggers here

I was reading this wiki on Azad Kashmir
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azad_Kashmi r

What i noticed is that the pak occupied part of erstwhile Princely state of JnK is split in two parts 1) Azad Kashmir and 2) FANA. (I am not counting the saksgham valley that Pak gifted to China).

Now the question i want to ask is Why the Pak occupied JnK split in two parts? And if a tiny portion is what Pak refer to Azad kashmir then does only the Indian occupied kashmir is what Pak see as disputed territory or the whole area including Jammu and Laddhakh region?

Posted by chirkut | Report as abusive

Suppose lets say India liberates Kashmir. Will Pakistan ask for Delhi and subsequently even more places next since 90% of today’s India was ruled by Mughals in the mid 1700s? I heard LeT’s aim was to hoist its flag in Delhi,not only Srinagar. So it logically follows that Pakistani ISI which is protecting LeT today is also dreaming similarly,isn’t it?
Suppose lets say India rubbishes off all these speculations about LeT and ISI and give up Kashmir .After giving up,lets say Taliban occupies it since Kashmir is very close to NWFP and FATA and start terrorizing women by introducing tribal laws. If it so happens,then can India answer to the world why it let go Kashmir from its clutches and made it another SWAT?

Posted by haradhs | Report as abusive

Saf
‘the idea of Pakistan,’
—Was a deluded fantasy of a poet-cashed in by a cunning Lawyer.
‘going to get worser basing on ONE YEAR??’
—The ONE YEAR itself was disastorous – marked with genocide, invasion, a despot at work.
‘does it negate my observation.’
—No, rather it’s an eye-opener for us & strengthens our resolve.
‘it sounded more opinion than truth.’
—-I layed bare the naked facts, yet not voiced my opinion, no traces of it in my comments.
‘The deaths of Direct Action Day — It was to be a peaceful protest that turned sour,’
— Wishing away won’t erase nor conceal deeds.
‘Anup you’re comments have become less credible in my eyes.’
—I dare to speak the truth- not interested in promoting my personal persona.
‘when offered PM’
—Yes, we regret, He had the potential, we agree & many folds more than Nehru & co. but frustration did him – personal enimity transformed possibly the most intelligent human of the 20th century into one of the most cold bloodied man. Carving out a Pakistan was not the task possible by ordinary mortals.
‘Jaffer wanted to become king.’
Jinnah, Quaid –E-Azam (sic)
‘but I really don’t care much for Siraj-ud-Daulah being screwed by anyone.’
—It lead to the slavery of India for almost two centuries.
‘except for the flow of hate and contempt you have for Jinnah.’
— I just dispelled fiction & particularized actuality…

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

Anitha,

you mark a great point, however, he clearly states it won’t be a theocratic nation. So what does that mean? Using the guidelines of Islam didn’t mean Sharia law, but the basic principles of freedom in it. Something akin to how UAE mixes its Islamic law with modernization. Each Emirate is slightly different, with Sharjah being the most conservative. To me what most Muslim countries practice as Islamic law really doesn’t look Islamic to me.

Clearly he didn’t go extreme on secularism like Attaturk did as he allowed religious freedom. Neither did he disbar minorities in taking part of the democratic process. Every nation has a mix of everything in their constitution. Canada until recently started a debate whether to keep the Lord’s Prayer at the beginning of their parliamentary sessions. Even the US constitution is heavily Christianized though keeps the basic rule of religious freedom.

Its a question on mindset on quotas. If you see around the world there is always a debate on minority quotas. Usually I find those against it are people who think their country is sound in idealism that minorities will find their way to the top and making any kind of caps would not help encourage growth in the long-term. I believe this was the same case with Jinnah.

Eventually its about the ground realities. Pakistan started to bleed out their minorities from the 60′s onwards. Today we have quotas however the fairness in society is weak. The criticism is legit, as it is also a question of long-term planning as well as short-term.

Good stuff, Anitha.

Posted by Saf | Report as abusive

Saf

“Was a deluded fantasy of a poet-cashed in by a cunning Lawyer.”

Again bias. The ‘deluded’ fantasy is now reality. For you cunning lawyer, for most a leader.

“The ONE YEAR itself was disastorous – marked with genocide, invasion, a despot at work.”

Yes, I recall the unique period is called Partition. Where the genocide was committed by both sides not by just one group and unsettled land disputes. If you’re accusing Jinnah then it would make sense to do for Nehru and the British or have you absolved them from all sins? A despot at work? It must have been the democratic principles that led you to that conclusion. There is no credible source that reaches the ridiculous assertion except for you and M.J.Akbar, the Indian journalist. Pure Bias.

“No, rather it’s an eye-opener for us & strengthens our resolve.”

Opinion. Not fact.

“I layed bare the naked facts, yet not voiced my opinion, no traces of it in my comments.”

Its riddled with opinion. See above.

“Wishing away won’t erase nor conceal deeds.

Its like blaming Gandhi for Chauri Chaura and blaming Atal Bihari Vajpayee for the Gujarat killings. There are deeds and intentions and control and other persons. You choose not to see it holistically. There is no accounts then or after that has laid the blame soley on Jinnah or whether he wanted such a thing or encouraged it, which is totally ridiculous.

“I dare to speak the truth- not interested in promoting my personal persona.”

Anup, your personal persona is in the statements you’ve chosen and those you left out. The picture of bias against Jinnah and your belief of him as a traitor.

“Yes, we regret, He had the potential, we agree & many folds more than Nehru & co. but frustration did him – personal enimity transformed possibly the most intelligent human of the 20th century into one of the most cold bloodied man. Carving out a Pakistan was not the task possible by ordinary mortals.”

‘most cold bloodied man’? Except for you and perhaps a few extremist Indians, there is no credible author that shows a continuous trend of such behavior nor believes in such nonsense. The enmity existed and was replied in kind by Nehru as well.

“Jinnah, Quaid –E-Azam (sic)”
If Jinnah purely wanted power, then ruling as PM over a joint India would have been far greater. He didn’t jump to that opportunity. So don’t compare.

“It lead to the slavery of India for almost two centuries.”

Don’t disagree. I still don’t care much for Siraj-ud-Dalla who by definition was a despot.

“I just dispelled fiction & particularized actuality…”

Not really. Dispelled actuality and particularized fiction is more like it.

Look, Anup. Clearly you think Jinnah is a traitor and every mean thing. This is akin to Pakistanis disliking Gandhi and Nehru. The truth is Gandhi very much liked Jinnah, and the dynamics of everything was huge. Unless you critically think outside the Indian angle, as I try to do outside the Pakistani angle, it won’t be so black and white and more shades of grey.

Posted by Saf | Report as abusive

Saf

Reply being blocked…will try on other topic, same blog

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

Saf,

I respect your opinion and therefore going to put you in a diffucult place.

You obviously feel Pakistan, created out of Indian land, YES, it was Indian land 800 years ago, before the Arab invaders plundered India..anyways you feel it has a right to exist. If you do, then Israel, made out of Arab land, also has the right to exist, does it not???

Please dispell the myth and set me on the right path so that I may not see any more Islamic Double Standard.

I dare you to respond to that directly with a firm YES or firm NO.

I am growing frustrated with my Islamic brothers who feel entitled to have what they want in terms of rights, yet when non-muslims want those same rights, they never want to acknowledge the other’s point of view? Is this a cultural failure/phenomenon, or is it a religious failure/phenomenon.

It would be great if most of us, regardless of religion, culture, etc…had a universal set of rationality, not based on religion, as this is what creates so much conflict.

So please answer that tough question. Islamic people want to be respect, and liked but never want to answer the tough questions, that we outsiders want to see answered.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

Saf,You can talk for another 60 years (if Pakistan is going to be around).

But the proof is in the pudding. Pakistan was founded on lies, and hatred and the outcome and where Pakistan stands today is here for every one to see. There is no argument here!.

There is not a single country on the face of earth where a country was founded on lies and hatred like Pakistan. Oh Please! Don’t go over again saying this is Indian view!! May be it is Indian view but this is truth and reality as it is.

History is replete countries breaking up along ethnic lines, but there is no country founded on a principle people who are ethnically, genetically, culturally same people constitute 2 different countries since they practice different religion. Again, there is no argument here since the outcome is here for everyone to see.

Unless you diagnose the illness correctly, how can you get a cure! And it is amusing, hilarious to read Paks saying just by accident India had good leaders and that’s why Indian nationhood has been more successful. No it was not because of luck or accident. It is because there is no internal contradiction in the idea behind India. The idea of India is on solid footing.

Present day India may be an artifical construct, but When the idea behind India is everyone irrespective of their birth or religion are Indians and equal citizens. Some failures in upholding these principles does not undermine or negate the idea of India.

But the construct of Pakistan is a negative one- no matter how you dress up! Being a homeland for muslims when 2/3 of muslims live outside the territory. Take the construct of TNT- 2 nations if you practice 2 religions!! The result is for everyone to see today. Now the Shias feel persecuted in Pakitan should they ask for a Shiastan?? The idea behind Pakistan is no different.

The internal contradictions within idea behind Pakistan are the reason it is a failed state.

We don’t care for Jinnah, Pakistan or the history behind partition etc if you live peacefully with the land you got. Alas, it is you —-who haven’t accepted partition it seems .

You can not have a separate country and still pretend as a champion of Indian Muslims. Especially since you dont have a 15% Hindu population in Pakistan. If India has the choice to pretend it is the champion of that 15% Hindus it would be on equal footing.

Raj,

Did you have to jump in! I had an entire long post ready only to disappear on an unfortunate mouse click! AAAHHHH!

Posted by saf | Report as abusive

To all the Indians out there…please take a look at this article & you will get off your high horse..when it comes to Kashmir,you people have NO MORAL HIGH GROUND!!

Thousands lost in Kashmir mass graves

18 April 2008
Call on India to investigate enforced disappearances and mass graves in Kashmir and Jammu
Hundreds of unidentified graves – believed to contain victims of unlawful killings, enforced disappearances, torture and other abuses – have been found in Indian-administered Jammu and Kashmir.

Amnesty International has urged the Indian government to launch urgent investigations into the mass graves, which are thought to contain the remains of victims of human rights abuses in the context of the armed conflict that has raged in the region since 1989.

The findings appear in the report Facts under Ground, issued on 29 March by the Srinagar-based Association of the Parents of Disappeared Persons (APDP). The report details the existence of multiple graves which, because of their proximity to Pakistan controlled-areas, are in areas not accessible without the specific permission of the security forces. Since 2006, the graves of at least 940 people are reported to have been discovered in 18 villages in Uri district alone.

The Indian army has claimed that those found buried were armed rebels and “foreign militants” killed lawfully in armed encounters with military forces. However, the report recounts testimonies from local villagers saying that most buried were local residents hailing from the state.

The report alleges that more than 8,000 persons have gone missing in Jammu and Kashmir since 1989. The Indian authorities put the figure at less than 4.000, claiming that most of these went to Pakistan to join armed opposition groups.

In 2006, a state police report confirmed the deaths in custody of 331 persons, and also 111 enforced disappearances following detention since 1989.

Unlawful killings, enforced disappearances and torture are violations of both international human rights law and international humanitarian law, set out in treaties to which India is a state party. They also constitute international crimes.

Amnesty International has called on the Indian government to unequivocally condemn enforced disappearances in Jammu and Kashmir and ensure that prompt, thorough, independent and impartial investigations into all sites of mass graves in the region are immediately carried out by forensic experts in line with the relevant UN Model Protocol.

Take ActionAll past and current allegations of enforced disappearances must be investigated and, where there is sufficient evidence, anyone suspected of responsibility for such crimes must be prosecuted in fair trial proceedings, with all victims granted full reparations.

Posted by Qasim | Report as abusive

Pakistan killing and torturing people in Azad Kashmir
Ref: Human rights watch
http://www.hrw.org/en/node/11156/section  /5

Power in Azad Kashmir is exercised primarily through the Pakistani army’s General Headquarters in Rawalpindi, just outside Islamabad, and its corps commander based in the hill station of Murree, two hours by road from Muzaffarabad. It is widely understood in Pakistan and privately admitted by virtually all politicians from Azad Kashmir that the corps commander in Murree is known to summon the Azad Kashmir prime minister, president and other government officials regularly to outline the military’s views on all political and governance issues in the territory.

During the rule of Pakistan’s first military leader, Ayub Khan (1958-68), President K.H. Khurshid of Azad Kashmir was forced to resign by a mid-level police official and later jailed in Palandari and Dalai Camp. During Prime Minister Zulfikar Ali Bhutto’s government (1972-77), another president of Azad Kashmir, Sardar Qayyum, was suddenly arrested by a mid-level official of the Federal Security Forces in Muzaffarabad and subsequently dismissed. During General Zia-ul-Haq’s government (1977-88), Brig. Hayat Khan was appointed administrator of Azad Kashmir, a post he held for seven years. When a civilian government was reestablished in Pakistan in 1988, Benazir Bhutto’s swearing in as prime minister was shortly followed by the installation of an elected government of Bhutto’s Pakistan People’s Party in Azad Kashmir. When Bhutto was sacked by the president in 1990, Azad Kashmir Prime Minister Mumtaz Rathore was “escorted” to Islamabad in a helicopter and made to sign a letter of resignation. When Nawaz Sharif became prime minister of Pakistan in 1990, Sardar Qayyum once again rose to power as prime minister of Azad Kashmir, the nominee of the Pakistani army. During Bhutto’s next stint in power (1993-96), she cautiously chose not to dismiss Sardar Qayyum, but elections in 1996 brought her Pakistan People’s Party to government again in the territory, as expected, and Sultan Mahmood Chaudhry became prime minister.
Following General Musharraf’s 1999 coup, Sardar Muhammad Anwar Khan took the oath of office on August 25, 2001, as president of Azad Kashmir. Sardar Anwar had been nominated by the All Jammu and Kashmir Muslim Conference (MC, the ruling party in the AJK Legislative Assembly, backed by Musharraf) on July 29, 2001, in a decision evidently reached in Islamabad, as at the time of his nomination the members of the assembly had little or no idea who Anwar was.[43] Prior to this appointment, he had served in the Pakistani army for thirty-five years and was an army major-general at the time of his appointment, retiring from the army just four days before his election as president on August 1, 2001.[44] Controversially, his retirement was under an ordinance issued by Musharraf that waived the restriction on government servants accepting any political post before they had been retired for a minimum of two years.[45] Anwar’s term of office ended following Legislative Assembly elections held in Azad Kashmir on July 11, 2006. On July 27, AJK Muslim Conference candidate Raja Zulqarnain Khan was elected president of Azad Kashmir for a five-year term.[46]
Sardar Sikandar Hayat Khan, a veteran of Pakistan-sponsored politics, served as prime minister of Azad Kashmir from July 2001 to July 25, 2006, when he was succeeded by Musharraf nominee and Muslim Conference president Sardar Attique Ahmad Khan.[47]
Regarding Azad Kashmir’s political party landscape, since the early 1990s real decision-making authority and the management of the “Kashmir struggle” has rested firmly with the Pakistani military through the ISI and ISI-backed militant organizations (see above, Chapter II, Background: The role of militant groups), and the mainstream political parties allowed representation by Pakistan in the AJK Legislative Assembly have not figured among the principal political actors in Azad Kashmir. However, they have benefited from the perks, privileges and funds for purposes of patronage and generating public support.
Sardar Karamdad Khan, a Muzaffarabad-based lawyer, summed up for Human Rights Watch the dispensation of power in the territory

Posted by Murugan | Report as abusive

Saf,
To me if i were listening to Jinnah’s speech that i last posted..
I would hear it as : if you are in pakistan, you will be free to follow your faith* under Islamic democracy (*terms and conditions of Islam apply)
and I would think it as :
jinahh do not want communal violence at the moment which he is anticipating, he sounds sympathetic towards followers of other faith, probably becuase he was married to a Hindu lady..and he was so convinced that a seperate muslim nation needs to be created as he believed Hindus and muslims cant live together peacefully, probably because he brooke with his wife and their marriage didn’t work out !!!

Saf, Jinnah was the one who condemned Gandhi for Quit India movement and pulled out all muslims just because Gandhi always wore a hindu dress and tried to speak hindi all the time as much as possible..when jinnah and his followers opted to wear western suit and spoke in english all the time..It was simply understood at that time that jinnah was back from london to India only for power not for freedom struggle and he found an opportunity to get in to power by bringing up 2 nation theory.
Aren’t hindus and muslims living together in India now ?
I can surely claim communal violence in India is much much lower compared to pakistan. hope you agree.
To me Jinnah was not a visionary, but a power hungry smart politician.

Posted by Anitha | Report as abusive

Quasim,
That is a sad news that mass graves were found :( DO one thing,take a loud speaker,go to Azad Kashmir and warn all the terrorists to stop killing-so people won’t be caught in the crossfires in Indian J&K. Kiddo!If Pakistan terrorists weren’t there,why do you think Your Infamous Indian troops were proudly patrolling the cities and villages of Kashmir.You will not stop terrorism but you will accuse India if people get killed,Pakistan is funny.If you got any guts,in the same Amnesty International site read about the Bangladesh massacre and please don’t accuse Indians for murdering Bangladeshis.

Posted by haradhs | Report as abusive

Haradhs,
That is not a nice thing to say. If Bangladeshis were murdered due to our incompetency,does that mean we should close our eyes when Kashmiris get killed? Some may die in the crossfires during anti-terrorist operations,but most of them die during questioning by the police or when the police shoots at the mob.

Posted by pk | Report as abusive

Saf
“…shades of grey.”
—Ofcourse , there are many a shade of grey- but, Jinnah’s place in historical accounts is based on tangible proof & indisputably falls in the category of traitors & despots…from all angles.

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

The best thing India could do now, in order to get long term gains in the region, is to let Kashmir go right away. Take in all Hindu and Buddhist majority regions and let the Muslim majority regions go any which way they want – be independent or accede to Pakistan. The celebrations will die down soon and reality will dawn. Kashmiri Muslims are of a very soft breed. They will not like the dominance by their Punjabhi brothers and rapid Talibanization. They will revolt and seek independence. And they will seek India’s help. India can turn the table around quickly and wait the enemy to collapse. Pakistan, being used to brutal means of achieving its ends, will collapse faster as Kashmir’s struggle will encourage Sindh, Balochistan and NWFP to revolt. India should help every ethnic group inside Pakistan at that time and it will accelerate the collapse of the country. If this happens, the Western powers will run in and try to seize the nuclear weapons so that rogue elements do not get access to them. Several problems will be solved if we let Pakistan self destruct. Patience is needed and I sincerely hope BJP does not come to power in the next elections. A Pakistan that is being pulled by the tidal waves of its internal collapse will do its best to draw India into a conflict. There will be several attacks like Mumbai very soon. They will attack during IPL matches and the next general elections. The ISI badly wants India to attack Pakistan so that it can unite all elements for sometime and thwart American efforts at the same time. This is the time to be wise and put up with enough mental resistance. If Kashmir is let go soon, within a few years they will be back begging to be taken into the union. Or at least they will be a close ally of India for their own survival. They will form a buffer state between the marauders and the India citizens. This is like a chess game. Sometimes you sacrifice a powerful queen or rook and corner the king of the opponent quickly. A diminished and dismembered Pakistan is the best choice for peace in the region. Firstly they will be busy fighting each other and leave India alone. Secondly, there will no more be of false comparisons with India. China’s plans in the region will be eliminated.

India is an ultra soft country & for the most part is ruled by minority appeasing congress party. This party supports illegal settlements of millions of Bangladesis in india & mass conversions into christianity as these groups are ready vote bank for them.
In such an environment, traitors roam free in Kashmir & keep demanding more & more. Simply, there is no hope until Indians become aware of & overcome religious, casteist,regional & linguist vote appeals.

Posted by Milind | Report as abusive

@ haradhs

Every conflict has two sides of the story…& in this case there is the Indian side which says “PAKISTAN IS BAD, IT IS SUPPORTING TERROR” and then there is the Pakistani side which says “INDIA IS BAD, IT IS SUPPORTING TERRORISM IN KASHMIR & BALOCHISTAN”

The answer is never black & white…it always lies somewhere in the middle. Both sides have their rights & both sides also have their wrongs

Posted by Qasim | Report as abusive

I have faith in the chief minister, Omar Abdullah.
We Kashmiris want to have say in how our land is ruled.
Hence Kashmiris have given a resounding backing to the democratic elections by coming out it in such large numbers.
He should seize the opportunity and negotiate more autonomy from New Delhi.

I am afraid that independence or merger with Pakistan sounds good now but is very dangerous if thought through.
Because if we merge with Pak, the Punjabis will again dominate us and the we wont even get the autonomy that we get with the Indian Union, as the Sindhis and Baloch people will concur.
If we are independent, then we have to rely either on India or Pak for supplies and that leaves us in square one again since they both will play their games on our soil.
Atleast, with India, we have constitutional authority as well as chance to participate in the booming economy which will help improve the lives of the average Kashmiri. I appeal to all the Kashmiris to think through this comment and understand what is best for their children.

Posted by Sohail in Srinagar | Report as abusive

Qasim
“INDIA IS BAD, IT IS SUPPORTING TERRORISM IN KASHMIR & BALOCHISTAN”

—-INDIA IS DEFENDING KASHMIR FROM PAKISTANI TERRORISTS & SUPPORTING THE RIGHT TO FREEDOM FROM THE AUTHORITARIAN RULERS OF PAKISTAN!

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

SUPPORTING THE RIGHT TO FREEDOM OF ‘BALUCHISTAN’ FROM THE AUTHORITARIAN RULERS OF PAKISTAN!

Posted by aNUP | Report as abusive

Saf

—If sanity can be restored in Pakistan, we still ready to let bygones be bygones, & start live amicably as progressive neighbours & friendly Nations.

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

Its really funny how these guys keep saying that India is bad cause people are being killed, the army is so bad, there is communal violence … blah blah blah.

I just want to ask few questions:

Are these problems not there in Pakistan?
Do they demolish Hindu temples or not?
Do muslims themselves are never killed by their fellowmen?
Do people never misteriously dissapear in Pakistan?
Are there no communal violence incidents in Pakistan?
Do shias and sunnis like happily ever after with each other?
Is taliban better than the Indian armed forces?

These sort of problems are there in every country and what is best is that we look into matters concerning our own countries and forget about what is happening across the border. Happily manage your part of Kashmir however u want to and let India handle its own people and territory.

If you want to do something good for your fellow human, there are lot of hungry and poor people in Africa, please help them or protect the nature. Stop killing people in the name of Islam.

Posted by Shraddha | Report as abusive

“”I have faith in the chief minister, Omar Abdullah.
We Kashmiris want to have say in how our land is ruled.
Hence Kashmiris have given a resounding backing to the democratic elections by coming out it in such large numbers.”…………

Atleast, with India, we have constitutional authority as well as chance to participate in the booming economy which will help improve the lives of the average Kashmiri. I appeal to all the Kashmiris to think through this comment and understand what is best for their children.
- Posted by Sohail in Srinagar

—-Sohail, That;s the way to go. That’s exactly what I wrote a post about. Again excerpt of the post is:
“There are so many examples of bad things happening when it gets tagged with Pakistan (sorry peaceful Pakistanis but that’s the truth). Lesson to Kashmiris: Quit this violence and pledge to remain with India peacefully. And I forgot one thing that a part of Kashmir in Pak was sold to Chinese.”

Sohail, are there more Kashmiris who can join the discussion— a place to speak your voice without leaders speaking on your behalf and saying things you do not agree with.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

For kashmiris struggling freedom from india, don,t let it be out of the fryingpan into the fire.

Posted by asadullahkhan | Report as abusive

For kashmiris struggling freedom from india, don,t let it be out of the fryingpan into the fire.
- Posted by asadullahkhan

—-Good point. If Pakistan’s wishes and helps in preventing cross-border terrorism in India and violence in Kashmir valley, everyone will know that there is no fire under the fryingpan.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

People who live in glass house should not throw stones at others.

The people of Kashmir should continue their 60 year struggle of self-determination. Pakistan will continue to support you, in good times and bad.

Pakistan and Kashmir Zindabad.

To ALL Pakistani bloggers,

Although this blog is about Kashmir. Another reason that violence has dropped is due to what is happening in Swat. The so-called Kashmiri/Pakistani troublemakers do not want to attract negative attention from the international community. The whole world is already deeply concerned about this so-called peace deal in Swat with the Taliban.

If you ever get Kashmir then I know you will be at the front of the crowd claiming VICTORY, VICTORY, VICTORY!!! Those people who wanted it to remain part of India will leave and take their businesses with them. India will close off the border, permanently. However, all the prime and pukka land will be taken by your so-called glorious Mullah leaders and Taliban and their heirs will inherit it and not even work for a living. They will put on wonderfully colourful shows to the world to show how peaceful they are and what great developments they have made. There will be supressions of freedom that everyone used to have and more supressions that they did not expect. More people will leave Kashmir, but they cannot go to Pakistan because its no different and besides Kashmir will be a Pakistani state. They will be living in total regret.

The Mullahs and Taliban will sit on their backsides and get fat boasting about their past glories with the odd trip to their Dubai luxury villa that your cousin built on slave wages that he sends back to his wife and kids so they can buy winter fuel to stem the load shedding. You (the ordinary man on the street) will not benefit from it at all. It may become another Swat. You will start cursing the USA for not providing money to economically help your Kashmir while you are standing in line a work visa to the USA so you can earn money. However, it will never be enough because the government (and Mullahs) will take its cuts. Before you know it, you will be over 60 years old and sitting in a cafe in Rawalpindi telling stories of your past so-called glories with the same pride you had in your youth. No different to the old men who invaded Kashmir in 1947-1948.

Posted by bulletfish | Report as abusive

Shraddha, you wrote as below. Just read search news any day and you have your answers there, try today for example and you will see suicide attack killing 30 or so.
“”
Are these problems not there in Pakistan?
Do they demolish Hindu temples or not?
Do muslims themselves are never killed by their fellowmen?
Do people never misteriously dissapear in Pakistan?
Are there no communal violence incidents in Pakistan?
Do shias and sunnis like happily ever after with each other?
Is taliban better than the Indian armed forces?
“”

Posted by Nick | Report as abusive

I see lot of discussions here on the right / wrong etc and the comparisons. It seems some thing is missing, please note, ”Pakistan is always right”, the evidence, the comparisons, the news clips etc etc do not hold any ground!!

Posted by Nick | Report as abusive

A moderate Paki is one who did not get the opportunity.
A good Paki is a Dead Paki

Posted by Raj | Report as abusive

Guys I don,t know what are we fighting for …….Indians blaming Pakistanis,Pakistani,s blaming Indians…….what do you people get out of it!Back lashing each other over something you are not even part of!Listen you should be thankful you are not living in such harsh conditions….the way Kashmiris are living……..why do you fight….we all know well enough about the hindu mahrahaja and the muslim majority thing so why fight!and secondly its not only Pakistan and India involved when it comes to Kashmir…..how can you forget China who has entered Kashmir thru Ladakh……Kashmir issue has never been a easy one…..I being a Pakistani proudly say that Kasmir belongs to us.but i won,t say that India should be driven out of it!we should think about some settlement which will suitable for both the countries!

Posted by Ana zia | Report as abusive

It is true that some people would want kashmir to be free.
But the only ones we see shouting are the yound fanatically sponsoured men. Maybe by having a free country these people might be better off or maybe by staying with india they might be part of India’s not too distant economic boom, who wouldn’t want to be part of that? BUT if one thinks about the FREEDOM of Kashmir one will also have to think about the FREEDOM of NWFP, Balochistan and Sindhistan, their wish is just as important. Free one, free the other. The fighting is about water anyway…

Posted by Baldeo S. | Report as abusive

all,

We have given the muslim brothers Pakistan&Bangladesh.
What have they don’t with it!! They make a mess of it.
What is happening @ Pakistan @ this moment!
Believe should be personal and not forced to anyone.

What would happened if all Muslim nations will have Freedom of religion? And do not persecute believers in other faiths.

Rajputhre

Posted by yadu | Report as abusive

Islam is a menace to the entire world, their horrible violent murderouse muslim cult has to be stopped at any cost, all the peaceloving nations of the world need to rally and wipe this sickness from the face of the earth forever, then there will be peace!

Posted by Robert McDonald | Report as abusive