Pakistan: Now or Never?
Perspectives on Pakistan
Kashmir violence drops further, but where’s the peace?
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Violence in Kashmir is down to its lowest level since the separatist revolt began in 1989, but peace remains a distant prospect in one of the world’s most beautiful regions.
The Delhi-based Institute of Conflict Studies which tracks militant violence across South Asia says 541 people were killed in militant-linked violence in 2008, continuing the declining trend from the previous year when fatalities had fallen to 777. That was well below the 1,000 mark used to define a high-intensity conflict and way lower than the 2001 peak of 4,507 deaths in a single year.
Just for purposes of comparison on a broad level, a separate analysis by the Institute shows that the number of people killed in militant-related violence in Pakistan hit 6,715 in 2008 from a 2003 figure of 189, reflecting a dramatic deterioration in the security situation.
So, as Pakistan fights the militants in its most serious internal challenge yet, some of whom it fostered to fight Indian forces in Kashmir, is peace at hand in the Himalayan region ?
Not by a long shot , going by the steady stream of street protests that seem to go off every now and then. Last year’s demonstrations, the biggest since the revolt began, over a government decision to hand over land near a Hindu shrine deep in Kashmir to a trust now seem to have become a watershed, giving new life to a movement that was despairing.
And because it is a street campaign, a sort of a non-violent struggle, it could be potentially more challenging to the Indian state than the guns and grenades of the militants, say Kashmiri leaders.
“India is not scared of any guns here in Kashmir – it has a thousand times more guns,” Mirwaiz Umar Farooq, a leader of the All Parties Hurriyat Conference, told the Wall Street Journal in this report in December.
“What it is scared of is people coming out in the streets, people seeing the power of nonviolent struggle.”
Is this really a civil disobedience movement, a leaf from Mahatma Gandhi’s book thrown in the face of those who rule India in his name?
{Reuters pictures of Gulmarg in Kashmir and a protest in Srinagar}
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…All indians read what the locals Kashmiri in the picture is holding!…
– That person in the picture looks more like Pakistani than Kashmiri.
Sorry dude, your Indian Exposure is incorrect, correct the lens and try.
Good Luck.
BTW, have you read about recent elections held in Kashmir, you’d have
…idiots have no choice..
…living prove that you are all IDIOTS.
– Ali ke zuban pe itna gAli
Kudos for your fRuStRaTiOn 
Ali Wrote:
“No land belongs to India infact it belongs to the people who live there and have been for centuries.”
Haha Ali how ignorant you are, India and Indians were right here for centuries, and centuries before your Prophet Mohd. was even in shape of a ugly zperm. If you argue the land should be given to the people living for centuries, then you are a invader here, get the hell out of our Pakistan.
Can you tell me why do you think Muslims invaders ruled us for 1000 Years ? From which date you are counting ?
You tried to convert each and every living creature on this earth to ISLAM, Not even spare animals, Your Taliban is so stupid that they are killing goats which don’t cover up their gen-itals on the other hand Paki who-rs are the cheapest in the world. You have a double standard hypocrite religion. This version of Islam is not sufism.
You can thump your chest for whatever crap you write here, but reality is You don’t have kashmir and You dont have Bangladesh too.
Go wear your suicide belt and explode in a Bus.
“Of course we agree that there are human rights violation in Kashmir and that Kashmiris want Azadi. But when we talk about kashmir why only talk about Indian occupied J&K,why not about the Azad kashmir or POK. In human rights Watch, they assert that there are as many violations in Azad kashmir as in Jammu and kashmir.”
- Posted by mitchell
Mitchell: Thanks for the post, very valuable links/information about human rights issues in POK, sorry Azad Kashmir.
Ali’s “I would have handed you a blue peter badge rajeeve you stupid monkey worshiper wake up….lol”
Ali: You cannot process much information,so I won’t say much. You are like a horror movie turned into a comedy. Stop begging with your terrorist-sympathizer brain.
”Mangan Maran Saman Hai, Mat Koi Mange Beekh
Mangan Se Marna Bhala, Yeh Satguru Ki Seekh”
Look at this web site,
http://www.islam-watch.org/
It talks about how people converted to Islam. If you have enery debate there
@Ali,
By insulting others,you are insulting our nationality. For heaven’s sake,stop using abuses.
@rajeev,
Yes I agree it was a mess up by the then impatient Pakistani army who allowed Pashtuns to invade Kashmir in the first place. I also agree if we hadn’t invaded Kashmir,there would have been a chance for independent Kashmir-because Maharaja wouldn’t have surrendered to India. But those are mistakes made by some incompetent officers,not by the people and that happened some 61 years ago. Isn’t 61 years a long time for the people to wait for their wishes to come true? What have we both done after 1948 ceasefire? Pakistan introduced Islamic terrrorism into India and India broke Pakistan into two .These are the only direct consequences of Kashmir and there is nothing to feel proud of it. (I always relate Bengal liberation as a consequence of Kashmir because we spent too much on the war)
@Murugan,
Well its not only in Pakistan,the neutral press also consider that Kashmir was in fact occupied against the wishes of people. I don’t know who is right among us.
To all Indians,
I think the British would have felt the same way before 1947 ,as we people feel about Kashmir now – ‘India is a part of the British Empire,why should we liberate it?’. I bet Churchill was against our independence.
@Ali, all Bloggers, MUST read the info on this link:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/ 2008/apr/11/protectingpakistanshindus
Animals and butchers don’t deserve a country.
Pakistan is in a much worse state than any one in the world knows.
This article is written by a muslim.
@Ali, Bloggers, MUST READ!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemy_l aws_of_Pakistan
Ali called Hindus animals and criticized Hinduism as a religion.
Ali, based on Pakistani’s laws, if you did the same thing in India, if India even had such a law, you would be running for your life.
Thank God India is fair and just.
It is so sad that your positions are so weakly indefendable and so easily insulted, are you really so weak that you cannot take even one bit of questioning, digression or criticism? What are you afraid of? It might catch on, if people start asking and questioning things? Is that really so terrifying? Apparently so.
“Isn’t 61 years a long time for the people to wait for their wishes to come true? What have we both done after 1948 ceasefire? Pakistan introduced Islamic terrrorism into India and India broke Pakistan into two……”
–posted by pk
pk: I agree that it does not take 61 yrs to deliver the promise made at that time. Situation has worsened now. New problems have appeeared. Plus the gegraphical nature of this area, the grwing animosity and mutual mistrust, and taking relations of India/Pak with neighbouring countries into picture. Tis is my view.
pk
“India broke Pakistan into two……”
—No, rather Pakistan split itself into two…rendering the two nation theory obsolete, so it’s proven that Pakistan is a delusion, created by a bunch of terrorists , led by the great terrorist Jinnah…
Anup,
Now you’re racially profiling and revisionist exaggerating calling Pakistanis and their founding leaders terrorists. That’s weak and poor.
Jinnah likened Pakistan to Attaturk’s Turkey, a secular Muslim State. It didn’t pan out as he died in a year. He wasn’t given enough time to make a smooth transition and with too much territory still in dispute, such as Hyderabad and Kashmir, as the date for independence was pushed up.
I guess you’re just upset with the breakup of India, but there’s no need to degrade.
Saf
Jinnah – Direct Action – mass murderer of 5000 innocents – a wily traitor who for his personal greed for power, joined hands with foreign forces & betrayed & splintered his country( when the seed is such what to say of it’s fruits) – a religious bigot, who ordered the massacre of a million humans after usurping their land, women & wealth, all in the name of religion- The Kashmir invasion of 1948, stands testimony as him being the first Terrorist of this region…Pakistan is just living up to it’s legacy. His share in history shall always be alongside-Mir Jaffer.
Saf
“That’s weak and poor.”
-I hope you found it strong enough.
“Jinnah likened Pakistan to Attaturk’s Turkey…”
Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, liberated his beloved country, Jinnah sold his country…
It didn’t pan out as he died in a year.
—Things wouldn’t have been any different, probably worser…
“…still in dispute,,…”
—- POK, Northern Areas, territories of Rann of Kutch, Sashken, Baluchistan, Waziristan…
“you’re just upset with the breakup of India…”
—Not at all! Just voicing the truth as it is….
@anup
Jinnah was a secular politician; he hated mullahs & the relationship was mutual. He wanted Pakistan to be just like its eastern neighbour; except for one difference:that Muslims would be in the majority. He was secular to the core & counted Ataturk of Turkey as his hero. Clearly,he was one of the most visionary leaders the subcontinent has ever had.
@ “Jinnah was a secular politician”
– This is in direct conflict of what happened..If he were secular why would he want a seperate muslim country ?? This action proves he was a non-believer in secularism.
Our beloved leader Mr Jinnah was a peace loving person who was in the same partiy as Mr Gandu sorry gandi and the rest of the crew.
What mr jinnah asked from the hindu fanatic leaders was a guarntee that muslims will have all the rights as any other indian. Have a agreement which would protect muslim intrest in india that goes from law n order to ecnomics and various other points.
But Hindu fanatic leaders did NOT give a proper response and were unwilling to guarntee the safety of the muslims.
Thats when Jinnah joined Muslim Conference so ALL the idots know too well what happened to muslims in gujrat the murderers are still walking talking and in their high seats in the government. Which is hardley a great advertisement for the biggest democracy in the world, my footit is!
What hapened to babri mosque…wernt they the real hindu terrorists?
What hapened in Gujrat?….wernt they the real hindu terrorists?
when the partyiotion happened the hindu terrorist murdered inncocent children and cut off women breast on the trains bound for Lahore???…werent they hindu terrorist???
Sorry idiots can only see the world from one angle and that is BJP angle the hindu terrorist angle.
Hindu terrorists had a dream of ruling the muslims as we have ruled the monkey worshipeers for over thousands years. They thought they had the best chance ti implement the idea but a great leader in the name of jinnah did not only convince the brioish and the whole world why he wanted pakistan.
So ALL you idiots go to hell with your Gandu leaders. Pakistan is here to stay and if ever we go dont worry we will make sure india goes with us and we have enough firepower to do that doesnt matter which hole you are going to hide in.
So be rest assured PAKISTAN is on the map and has been and will be…as of india with over 50 sepratist movements No guarntees as Mr manmohin said india greatest security threat is from the maoist rebels and what he meant was the over 50 sepratist movement in india.
Neither treatment of muslims, christians and even the hindu low caste is a great advert of the indian democracy….thanks
Looks like some idiots are losing there mind oh well thats the aim of the game.
Indian for idiots
Kashmir for kashmiris-does not include hindu terrorist who have moved to kashmir by the way lol
Pakistan for pakis….
Paki Power yeh….idiots bark but no action what happened to all the threats we will do a surgical strike lol just threats hallow threats no substance as always indians are incompetent.
Anup….
Anup have you already forgottin that your granny use to dance in the mujras for the delight of the muslim rulers? ask her she still remebers i bet u and ask her how she was treated first hand account lol by the way not what you read in your bogus books.
“you’re just upset with the breakup of India…”
—Not at all! Just voicing the truth as it is…. thats what you wrote i can see crying tears of blood. It was your incompotent leaders like mr gandu and few others that could not even guarntee muslims their rights.
I believe that mr Jinnah knew then what people like you had in mind…so he got a seprate land for the muslims. To this day we put our hand up and pray and thank him..
If he did not we know how the hindus treat the muslims inindia….how many examples do i have to give to let the idiots know…
Gujjrat….Kashmir…….Christians…..Churches ….Mosques…..Golden temple the holliest sikh shrine….samjutta train and many many more.
This is tghe work of hindu terrorist and we kane wait till india sends its incompotent army to afghnistan kos they wouldnt know whwere to run r hide. The only way back to india is throuh pakistan so we look forwards to that encounter.
Go to hell all HIndu terrorist!!!!!
Ali,
I wonder what conclusion will people draw about Pakistan just from your abuses?
You are calling Gandhi by words? What a pity?
I agree with Quasim. I had heard Jinnah wanted to be secular but unlike India there were few leaders for Pakistan .Even those who were highly influential like Frontier Gandhi were actually pro-India. Obviously Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan spent a large time in Pakistani prison even after the partition. Putting good people into prisons and letting power hungry morons to take high positions in the army,do we expect them to lead the country better? I don’t think it is right to attack Jinnah again after a long time,damage to Jinnah’s Pakistan had been done by Zia-Ul-Haq’s policy of Islamization of Pakistan.
Ali is just sour grapes. His country is falling apart, his country has an uncertain future, questionable history. At present Pakistan has created IT specialists only..that is International Terrorism.
By the way, India should create its own Sikh Khalistan movement, they should make Khalistan in Pakistan, since Pakistan stole and occupied most of their Punjabi homeland, so feel free to leave, and give it back to the punjabi Sikhs.
Your hero Jinnah was a pork eater, yes, he actually was, he had concubines, stole, was corrupt and advocated violence against Hindus. Our Gandhi on the other hand, was monogamous (barely even saw his wife), was vegetarian, pacifists and said all peoples are your brothers. You are lucky Gandhiji did not advocate violence, it is the only reason why Pakistan even exists, there would have been a butcher of mythic proportions, if Gandhi advocated violence, there would not have been enough people to even create Pakistan. So, stuff that one in your coconut between your shoulders.
As you sleep, your country slowly comes apart. Enjoy your last few years or at most a decade of peace, while you can. You will be begging for India to give you a place to sleep.
Ali..just go away, do some homework, shut down a madrasa and go and enjoy a Peshawari Kebab.
Maybe the educated youth in Kashmir want to live in peace. I read a june 2008 BBC article which tells about the changing perceptions of the Kashmiri youth. Syed Ali Shah Geelani comapres the modernity in Kashmir to cultural aggression. I quote from the article
“He admits that a large number of youth have moved away from the separatist movement.
“Our youth are being led astray by India, our students are being taken out of Kashmir on education tours and they are being mislead. We are being subjected to cultural aggression.” ”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/74 71050.stm
What the West and India call modernization and education, the Islamicists call it “cultural aggression” and “erosion of Islamic Values”. What the west calls
You cannot negotiate with animals who view everything with an upside point of view. What Islamicists call Terrorism by India, India and the rest of the world calls it fighting terrorism, jihadism and aggression.
Islamicists are retrograde and deserve no mercy, no negotiation, they deserve what they want…a jihad and a death in jihad they shall always find for themselves.
These people have no humanity, no sense of rationality, no love in their hearts, no sense of who God really is, no sense of universal right or wrong, no sense of what the world lying means, no sense of what it means to kill another.
The only thing these people respect is a firm hand and an american cruise missile, bearing down on them at 1,200 mph.
ha ha, Kothewalli ?? is that so ??so did ali’s grandpa from persia cleaning horse parts that he brought to trade along with kothewalli ??
Anup,
As for your statements:
“Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, liberated his beloved country, Jinnah sold his country…”
Anup, that’s an opinion NOT fact. Sold the country to who and how? That doesn’t make sense. Sold out by being betraying government secrets? Sold to the Chinese? What does that mean? Sold the idea of Pakistan, then yea, he created a new Nation on the basis of secularism and modernization. Attaturk recognized his Muslim heritage however believed in European modernization. Attaturk had the pleasure of running Turkey for 15 years to Jinnah’s 1 year.
“Things wouldn’t have been any different, probably worser…”
Again, an Opinion…nothing factual. How can you claim it was going to get worser basing on ONE YEAR??
“POK, Northern Areas, territories of Rann of Kutch, Sashken, Baluchistan, Waziristan…”
And that just backs up my argument for the little time had for such disputes. By no means does it negate my observation.
“Not at all! Just voicing the truth as it is…”
I’m sorry, it sounded more opinion than truth. As to your earlier post which may show the hurt I was alluding to about the country being split:
“a wily traitor who for his personal greed for power, joined hands with foreign forces & betrayed & splintered his country”
Clearly this is a stick. And here’s the full post:
“Jinnah – Direct Action – mass murderer of 5000 innocents – a wily traitor who for his personal greed for power, joined hands with foreign forces & betrayed & splintered his country( when the seed is such what to say of it’s fruits) – a religious bigot, who ordered the massacre of a million humans after usurping their land, women & wealth, all in the name of religion- The Kashmir invasion of 1948, stands testimony as him being the first Terrorist of this region…Pakistan is just living up to it’s legacy. His share in history shall always be alongside-Mir Jaffer.”
Yes Anup, Jinnah arranged an Al Qaeda type operation to get 5000 people killed in Calcutta. Very observant….NOT. The deaths of Direct Action Day had more to do with inept management by all people in the locality. It reinforced the proof of the simmering relations between the religious groups. It was to be a peaceful protest that turned sour, even though it had successfully proceeded elsewhere, but after the event it became worse due to revenge attacks all around.
Joined hands with foreign forces? Dude, like the British joined anyone’s hands! Pulled up the separation date, not sending in the army, not granting proper arrangements don’t seem much like good friendship. If in any case they were more pro-Nehru.
Jinnah demanded a Muslim state after his demand for seats were rejected, and when offered PM he rejected it unlike told on your side where Congress were against it which is true initially but relented but got shot down.
Ordered a massacre of a million people? ORDERED? Religious? And I thought Pakistanis exaggerated or made up stuff. Anup you’re comments have become less credible in my eyes.
Jinnah like Mir-Jaffer. Spare me. Jinnah was trying to create a new state, Jaffer wanted to become king.
Mir-Jaffer was arrogant,opportunistic and ambitious and a betrayer, but I really don’t care much for Siraj-ud-Daulah being screwed by anyone. Anyways there’s no similarity except for the flow of hate and contempt you have for Jinnah. There’s really nothing I can do or say to change it…and I know Ali and Qasim definitely won’t help!
Anitha,
Turkey was a ‘Musalaman’ country with majority Muslims which Ataturk recognized. However he wanted religion separate from government. This was the same case with Jinnah. The idea being you can be Muslim as long as you don’t bring it to government. The same for the Western world.
Your question is good as it leads to the question ‘if society is secular then why not live together?’. And to me the only answer is that he believed that Muslims and Hindus were too different to be, and wanted a separate glorious secular ‘Muslim’ state, but without the religion. He viewed Muslims as an ethnic group rather than a religious group. However this is an opinion and only experts can nail down the definition and categories his vision falls under.
Though your conclusion of ‘non-secular’ is not wrong, as creating a new state for one set of particular people is not a pre-requisite for secularism. But then can you have a secular state with one type of ethnic or religious group?
Ali and Qasim,
You don’t realize the relationship Gandhi had with Jinnah, and you shouldn’t be attacking a man who somehow through ritual symbolism convinced Nehru’s government to hand over a payment that was rightfully Pakistan’s, during war time. Your insults are a shame, degrading and should immediately stop.
Global Watcher
Are you on the same planet as Ali and Qasim?
“Your hero Jinnah was a pork eater, yes, he actually was, he had concubines, stole, was corrupt and advocated violence against Hindus”
Please read my previous post in regards to Jinnah’s character, provided in the link below, in December. That goes for all you guys.
http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2008/1 2/26/india-aiming-for-diplomatic-encircl ement-of-pakistan/comment-page-4/
Concubines? Get real Globe, if Jinnah was all that then there’s plenty of serious out of context integrity flaws that can be taken for Gandhi such as kid love, playing on religious superstitions, killing Bhagath Singh, etc. Pretty much all crap if you see it in that view.
Saf,
Here is the few first lines spoken by Jinahh after formation of pakistan
““The constitution of Pakistan has yet to be framed by the Pakistan Constituent Assembly. I do not know what the ultimate shape of this constitution is going to be, but I am sure that it will be of a democratic type, embodying the essential principle of Islam. Today, they are as applicable in actual life as they were 1,300 years ago. Islam and its idealism have taught us democracy. It has taught equality of man, justice and fairplay to everybody. We are the inheritors of these glorious traditions and are fully alive to our responsibilities and obligations as framers of the future constitution of Pakistan. In any case Pakistan is not going to be a theocratic State to be ruled by priests with a divine mission. We have many non-Muslims –Hindus, Christians, and Parsis –but they are all Pakistanis. They will enjoy the same rights and privileges as any other citizens and will play their rightful part in the affairs of Pakistan”
Now making a constitution on the lines of Islam and asking people of other faith to follow it. When India went on to provide special quotas to ensure the growth and development of minorities, Jinahh smartly cut out any kinda protection to minorities all the while when he knew the minority interests will be supressed. If he didn’t knew that he wouldn’t have spoken those lines.
Can a secular democratic country has constitution framed based on a particular religion ??
It that happens it simply means it do not respect or take other religions in to account.
Dear Ali,
You constantly distort the name “Gandhi” to “look at your post”
Here is an article from Dawn’s Jawed Naqvi, who I find is critical of India (that’s his job so it is OK). Even he writes this about Gandhi.
http://www.dawn.com/weekly/jawed/2009020 2.htm
Important quotes relevant to you are:
“But the plot to kill Gandhi was hatched on Jan 13 when he began a fast to press a point in favour of Pakistan. It is disheartening that Pakistani schoolchildren, in fact, even their Indian counterparts, are kept in the dark about the reasons for the plotters to kill him.”
“How many schoolchildren or even adult Pakistanis know the reason why Gandhi became the target of Godse’s sinister plot? That fact is that before he was killed, Gandhi was protesting against the refusal by the Indian government to transfer Rs550 million it owed Pakistan.”
“He got India to release the money and broke his fast, not unaware that his support for Pakistan could cost him his life. So that was at least part of the reason why they killed him.”
Instead of being respectful to him, you in your ignorance are distorting his name.
This is just an example of you ignorance and arrogance and is reflected in many of your posts.
Allah Hafiz
“Paki Power yeh….idiots bark but no action what happened to all the threats we will do a surgical strike lol just threats hallow threats no substance as always indians are incompetent.”
- Posted by Ali
Ali,
Good point finally. India thought about that and then saw Pakistan is doing the same job, why to waste ammunition and it is quite surgical–I mean beheadings….lol
We are playing Gandhi until needed and will play Bhagat Singh, Azad and Uddham Singh, Mangal Pandey and Abdul Hamid when required. Don’t be so impatient.
And yes we are proud of our Muslim brothers. Talking about the “Allah-Hu-Akbar…..” war cry, here is my school time hero Havildar ABDUL HAMID, who destroyed 7 Pak Tanks in 1965 India-Pak war and gave up his life for the nation and was decorated with Param Vir Chakar. This is called democracy and secularism Ali—–beyond your narrowminded vision. check this out for Abdul Hamid;s achievements in 1965.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_Qua rter_Master_Havildar_Abdul_Hamid
“By the way, India should create its own Sikh Khalistan movement, they should make Khalistan in Pakistan, since Pakistan stole and occupied most of their Punjabi homeland, so feel free to leave, and give it back to the punjabi Sikhs.”
-posted by Global watcher
This suddenly bring so many comparisons.
1. Pakistan Punjab is full of terrrists with few innocents in it. Paki Punjabis have such a bad reputation (because of terrorists). Look at Indian Punjab, it is so much respected and is vibrant and floursihing after overcoming Paki-supported Khalistan militancy.
2. Kashmir, Look at the POK. what is there terrorist training camps, a damn that kicked Kashmiris out of jobs, a bogus title “Azad Kashmir” with one of the most oppressive places. Indian Kashmir, once again has violence supported by Paki Punjabi militants (committed genocide/exodus of kashmiri Pundits) and not allowing innocent Kashmiris to live in peace.India has given Kashmir a special status and spending laods of money on Pakistan development. Indian Kashmiris have access to all the great education institutions and so manu job opportunities and a sincere effort to establish a political process and have Kashmiri CM unlike Azad Kashmir with Punjabi PM.
3, India decorated Frontier Gandhi (a Pakistani Citizen), who believed in non-violence, with highest civial award Bharat Ratan. On the other hand Pakistanis put him in prison and tortured.
His last words to Gandhi and his erstwhile allies in the Congress party (before partition) were: “You have thrown us to the wolves.”(i.e.Pakistan). Well Pakistan proved him right by killing thousand of “Khudai Khimatgars” and also imprisoned Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan after partition for 2 decades and tortured. This is what he said after coming out of pak prison “I had to go to prison many a time in the days of the Britishers. Although we were at loggerheads with them, yet their treatment was to some extent tolerant and polite. But the treatment which was meted out to me in this Islamic state of ours was such that I would not even like to mention it to you.”
There are so many examples of bad things happening when it gets tagged with Pakistan (sorry peaceful Pakistanis but that’s the truth).
Lesson to Kashmiris: Quit this violence and pledge to remain with India peacefully. And I forgot one thing that a part of Kashmir in Pak was sold to Chinese.
I have one question for Paki bloggers here
I was reading this wiki on Azad Kashmir
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azad_Kashmi r
What i noticed is that the pak occupied part of erstwhile Princely state of JnK is split in two parts 1) Azad Kashmir and 2) FANA. (I am not counting the saksgham valley that Pak gifted to China).
Now the question i want to ask is Why the Pak occupied JnK split in two parts? And if a tiny portion is what Pak refer to Azad kashmir then does only the Indian occupied kashmir is what Pak see as disputed territory or the whole area including Jammu and Laddhakh region?
Suppose lets say India liberates Kashmir. Will Pakistan ask for Delhi and subsequently even more places next since 90% of today’s India was ruled by Mughals in the mid 1700s? I heard LeT’s aim was to hoist its flag in Delhi,not only Srinagar. So it logically follows that Pakistani ISI which is protecting LeT today is also dreaming similarly,isn’t it?
Suppose lets say India rubbishes off all these speculations about LeT and ISI and give up Kashmir .After giving up,lets say Taliban occupies it since Kashmir is very close to NWFP and FATA and start terrorizing women by introducing tribal laws. If it so happens,then can India answer to the world why it let go Kashmir from its clutches and made it another SWAT?
Saf
‘the idea of Pakistan,’
—Was a deluded fantasy of a poet-cashed in by a cunning Lawyer.
‘going to get worser basing on ONE YEAR??’
—The ONE YEAR itself was disastorous – marked with genocide, invasion, a despot at work.
‘does it negate my observation.’
—No, rather it’s an eye-opener for us & strengthens our resolve.
‘it sounded more opinion than truth.’
—-I layed bare the naked facts, yet not voiced my opinion, no traces of it in my comments.
‘The deaths of Direct Action Day — It was to be a peaceful protest that turned sour,’
— Wishing away won’t erase nor conceal deeds.
‘Anup you’re comments have become less credible in my eyes.’
—I dare to speak the truth- not interested in promoting my personal persona.
‘when offered PM’
—Yes, we regret, He had the potential, we agree & many folds more than Nehru & co. but frustration did him – personal enimity transformed possibly the most intelligent human of the 20th century into one of the most cold bloodied man. Carving out a Pakistan was not the task possible by ordinary mortals.
‘Jaffer wanted to become king.’
Jinnah, Quaid –E-Azam (sic)
‘but I really don’t care much for Siraj-ud-Daulah being screwed by anyone.’
—It lead to the slavery of India for almost two centuries.
‘except for the flow of hate and contempt you have for Jinnah.’
— I just dispelled fiction & particularized actuality…
Anitha,
you mark a great point, however, he clearly states it won’t be a theocratic nation. So what does that mean? Using the guidelines of Islam didn’t mean Sharia law, but the basic principles of freedom in it. Something akin to how UAE mixes its Islamic law with modernization. Each Emirate is slightly different, with Sharjah being the most conservative. To me what most Muslim countries practice as Islamic law really doesn’t look Islamic to me.
Clearly he didn’t go extreme on secularism like Attaturk did as he allowed religious freedom. Neither did he disbar minorities in taking part of the democratic process. Every nation has a mix of everything in their constitution. Canada until recently started a debate whether to keep the Lord’s Prayer at the beginning of their parliamentary sessions. Even the US constitution is heavily Christianized though keeps the basic rule of religious freedom.
Its a question on mindset on quotas. If you see around the world there is always a debate on minority quotas. Usually I find those against it are people who think their country is sound in idealism that minorities will find their way to the top and making any kind of caps would not help encourage growth in the long-term. I believe this was the same case with Jinnah.
Eventually its about the ground realities. Pakistan started to bleed out their minorities from the 60′s onwards. Today we have quotas however the fairness in society is weak. The criticism is legit, as it is also a question of long-term planning as well as short-term.
Good stuff, Anitha.
Saf
“Was a deluded fantasy of a poet-cashed in by a cunning Lawyer.”
Again bias. The ‘deluded’ fantasy is now reality. For you cunning lawyer, for most a leader.
“The ONE YEAR itself was disastorous – marked with genocide, invasion, a despot at work.”
Yes, I recall the unique period is called Partition. Where the genocide was committed by both sides not by just one group and unsettled land disputes. If you’re accusing Jinnah then it would make sense to do for Nehru and the British or have you absolved them from all sins? A despot at work? It must have been the democratic principles that led you to that conclusion. There is no credible source that reaches the ridiculous assertion except for you and M.J.Akbar, the Indian journalist. Pure Bias.
“No, rather it’s an eye-opener for us & strengthens our resolve.”
Opinion. Not fact.
“I layed bare the naked facts, yet not voiced my opinion, no traces of it in my comments.”
Its riddled with opinion. See above.
“Wishing away won’t erase nor conceal deeds.
Its like blaming Gandhi for Chauri Chaura and blaming Atal Bihari Vajpayee for the Gujarat killings. There are deeds and intentions and control and other persons. You choose not to see it holistically. There is no accounts then or after that has laid the blame soley on Jinnah or whether he wanted such a thing or encouraged it, which is totally ridiculous.
“I dare to speak the truth- not interested in promoting my personal persona.”
Anup, your personal persona is in the statements you’ve chosen and those you left out. The picture of bias against Jinnah and your belief of him as a traitor.
“Yes, we regret, He had the potential, we agree & many folds more than Nehru & co. but frustration did him – personal enimity transformed possibly the most intelligent human of the 20th century into one of the most cold bloodied man. Carving out a Pakistan was not the task possible by ordinary mortals.”
‘most cold bloodied man’? Except for you and perhaps a few extremist Indians, there is no credible author that shows a continuous trend of such behavior nor believes in such nonsense. The enmity existed and was replied in kind by Nehru as well.
“Jinnah, Quaid –E-Azam (sic)”
If Jinnah purely wanted power, then ruling as PM over a joint India would have been far greater. He didn’t jump to that opportunity. So don’t compare.
“It lead to the slavery of India for almost two centuries.”
Don’t disagree. I still don’t care much for Siraj-ud-Dalla who by definition was a despot.
“I just dispelled fiction & particularized actuality…”
Not really. Dispelled actuality and particularized fiction is more like it.
Look, Anup. Clearly you think Jinnah is a traitor and every mean thing. This is akin to Pakistanis disliking Gandhi and Nehru. The truth is Gandhi very much liked Jinnah, and the dynamics of everything was huge. Unless you critically think outside the Indian angle, as I try to do outside the Pakistani angle, it won’t be so black and white and more shades of grey.
Saf
Reply being blocked…will try on other topic, same blog
Saf,
I respect your opinion and therefore going to put you in a diffucult place.
You obviously feel Pakistan, created out of Indian land, YES, it was Indian land 800 years ago, before the Arab invaders plundered India..anyways you feel it has a right to exist. If you do, then Israel, made out of Arab land, also has the right to exist, does it not???
Please dispell the myth and set me on the right path so that I may not see any more Islamic Double Standard.
I dare you to respond to that directly with a firm YES or firm NO.
I am growing frustrated with my Islamic brothers who feel entitled to have what they want in terms of rights, yet when non-muslims want those same rights, they never want to acknowledge the other’s point of view? Is this a cultural failure/phenomenon, or is it a religious failure/phenomenon.
It would be great if most of us, regardless of religion, culture, etc…had a universal set of rationality, not based on religion, as this is what creates so much conflict.
So please answer that tough question. Islamic people want to be respect, and liked but never want to answer the tough questions, that we outsiders want to see answered.
Saf,You can talk for another 60 years (if Pakistan is going to be around).
But the proof is in the pudding. Pakistan was founded on lies, and hatred and the outcome and where Pakistan stands today is here for every one to see. There is no argument here!.
There is not a single country on the face of earth where a country was founded on lies and hatred like Pakistan. Oh Please! Don’t go over again saying this is Indian view!! May be it is Indian view but this is truth and reality as it is.
History is replete countries breaking up along ethnic lines, but there is no country founded on a principle people who are ethnically, genetically, culturally same people constitute 2 different countries since they practice different religion. Again, there is no argument here since the outcome is here for everyone to see.
Unless you diagnose the illness correctly, how can you get a cure! And it is amusing, hilarious to read Paks saying just by accident India had good leaders and that’s why Indian nationhood has been more successful. No it was not because of luck or accident. It is because there is no internal contradiction in the idea behind India. The idea of India is on solid footing.
Present day India may be an artifical construct, but When the idea behind India is everyone irrespective of their birth or religion are Indians and equal citizens. Some failures in upholding these principles does not undermine or negate the idea of India.
But the construct of Pakistan is a negative one- no matter how you dress up! Being a homeland for muslims when 2/3 of muslims live outside the territory. Take the construct of TNT- 2 nations if you practice 2 religions!! The result is for everyone to see today. Now the Shias feel persecuted in Pakitan should they ask for a Shiastan?? The idea behind Pakistan is no different.
The internal contradictions within idea behind Pakistan are the reason it is a failed state.
We don’t care for Jinnah, Pakistan or the history behind partition etc if you live peacefully with the land you got. Alas, it is you —-who haven’t accepted partition it seems .
You can not have a separate country and still pretend as a champion of Indian Muslims. Especially since you dont have a 15% Hindu population in Pakistan. If India has the choice to pretend it is the champion of that 15% Hindus it would be on equal footing.
Raj,
Did you have to jump in! I had an entire long post ready only to disappear on an unfortunate mouse click! AAAHHHH!
To all the Indians out there…please take a look at this article & you will get off your high horse..when it comes to Kashmir,you people have NO MORAL HIGH GROUND!!
Thousands lost in Kashmir mass graves
18 April 2008
Call on India to investigate enforced disappearances and mass graves in Kashmir and Jammu
Hundreds of unidentified graves – believed to contain victims of unlawful killings, enforced disappearances, torture and other abuses – have been found in Indian-administered Jammu and Kashmir.
Amnesty International has urged the Indian government to launch urgent investigations into the mass graves, which are thought to contain the remains of victims of human rights abuses in the context of the armed conflict that has raged in the region since 1989.
The findings appear in the report Facts under Ground, issued on 29 March by the Srinagar-based Association of the Parents of Disappeared Persons (APDP). The report details the existence of multiple graves which, because of their proximity to Pakistan controlled-areas, are in areas not accessible without the specific permission of the security forces. Since 2006, the graves of at least 940 people are reported to have been discovered in 18 villages in Uri district alone.
The Indian army has claimed that those found buried were armed rebels and “foreign militants” killed lawfully in armed encounters with military forces. However, the report recounts testimonies from local villagers saying that most buried were local residents hailing from the state.
The report alleges that more than 8,000 persons have gone missing in Jammu and Kashmir since 1989. The Indian authorities put the figure at less than 4.000, claiming that most of these went to Pakistan to join armed opposition groups.
In 2006, a state police report confirmed the deaths in custody of 331 persons, and also 111 enforced disappearances following detention since 1989.
Unlawful killings, enforced disappearances and torture are violations of both international human rights law and international humanitarian law, set out in treaties to which India is a state party. They also constitute international crimes.
Amnesty International has called on the Indian government to unequivocally condemn enforced disappearances in Jammu and Kashmir and ensure that prompt, thorough, independent and impartial investigations into all sites of mass graves in the region are immediately carried out by forensic experts in line with the relevant UN Model Protocol.
Take ActionAll past and current allegations of enforced disappearances must be investigated and, where there is sufficient evidence, anyone suspected of responsibility for such crimes must be prosecuted in fair trial proceedings, with all victims granted full reparations.
Pakistan killing and torturing people in Azad Kashmir
Ref: Human rights watch
http://www.hrw.org/en/node/11156/section /5
Power in Azad Kashmir is exercised primarily through the Pakistani army’s General Headquarters in Rawalpindi, just outside Islamabad, and its corps commander based in the hill station of Murree, two hours by road from Muzaffarabad. It is widely understood in Pakistan and privately admitted by virtually all politicians from Azad Kashmir that the corps commander in Murree is known to summon the Azad Kashmir prime minister, president and other government officials regularly to outline the military’s views on all political and governance issues in the territory.
During the rule of Pakistan’s first military leader, Ayub Khan (1958-68), President K.H. Khurshid of Azad Kashmir was forced to resign by a mid-level police official and later jailed in Palandari and Dalai Camp. During Prime Minister Zulfikar Ali Bhutto’s government (1972-77), another president of Azad Kashmir, Sardar Qayyum, was suddenly arrested by a mid-level official of the Federal Security Forces in Muzaffarabad and subsequently dismissed. During General Zia-ul-Haq’s government (1977-88), Brig. Hayat Khan was appointed administrator of Azad Kashmir, a post he held for seven years. When a civilian government was reestablished in Pakistan in 1988, Benazir Bhutto’s swearing in as prime minister was shortly followed by the installation of an elected government of Bhutto’s Pakistan People’s Party in Azad Kashmir. When Bhutto was sacked by the president in 1990, Azad Kashmir Prime Minister Mumtaz Rathore was “escorted” to Islamabad in a helicopter and made to sign a letter of resignation. When Nawaz Sharif became prime minister of Pakistan in 1990, Sardar Qayyum once again rose to power as prime minister of Azad Kashmir, the nominee of the Pakistani army. During Bhutto’s next stint in power (1993-96), she cautiously chose not to dismiss Sardar Qayyum, but elections in 1996 brought her Pakistan People’s Party to government again in the territory, as expected, and Sultan Mahmood Chaudhry became prime minister.
Following General Musharraf’s 1999 coup, Sardar Muhammad Anwar Khan took the oath of office on August 25, 2001, as president of Azad Kashmir. Sardar Anwar had been nominated by the All Jammu and Kashmir Muslim Conference (MC, the ruling party in the AJK Legislative Assembly, backed by Musharraf) on July 29, 2001, in a decision evidently reached in Islamabad, as at the time of his nomination the members of the assembly had little or no idea who Anwar was.[43] Prior to this appointment, he had served in the Pakistani army for thirty-five years and was an army major-general at the time of his appointment, retiring from the army just four days before his election as president on August 1, 2001.[44] Controversially, his retirement was under an ordinance issued by Musharraf that waived the restriction on government servants accepting any political post before they had been retired for a minimum of two years.[45] Anwar’s term of office ended following Legislative Assembly elections held in Azad Kashmir on July 11, 2006. On July 27, AJK Muslim Conference candidate Raja Zulqarnain Khan was elected president of Azad Kashmir for a five-year term.[46]
Sardar Sikandar Hayat Khan, a veteran of Pakistan-sponsored politics, served as prime minister of Azad Kashmir from July 2001 to July 25, 2006, when he was succeeded by Musharraf nominee and Muslim Conference president Sardar Attique Ahmad Khan.[47]
Regarding Azad Kashmir’s political party landscape, since the early 1990s real decision-making authority and the management of the “Kashmir struggle” has rested firmly with the Pakistani military through the ISI and ISI-backed militant organizations (see above, Chapter II, Background: The role of militant groups), and the mainstream political parties allowed representation by Pakistan in the AJK Legislative Assembly have not figured among the principal political actors in Azad Kashmir. However, they have benefited from the perks, privileges and funds for purposes of patronage and generating public support.
Sardar Karamdad Khan, a Muzaffarabad-based lawyer, summed up for Human Rights Watch the dispensation of power in the territory
Saf,
To me if i were listening to Jinnah’s speech that i last posted..
I would hear it as : if you are in pakistan, you will be free to follow your faith* under Islamic democracy (*terms and conditions of Islam apply)
and I would think it as :
jinahh do not want communal violence at the moment which he is anticipating, he sounds sympathetic towards followers of other faith, probably becuase he was married to a Hindu lady..and he was so convinced that a seperate muslim nation needs to be created as he believed Hindus and muslims cant live together peacefully, probably because he brooke with his wife and their marriage didn’t work out !!!
Saf, Jinnah was the one who condemned Gandhi for Quit India movement and pulled out all muslims just because Gandhi always wore a hindu dress and tried to speak hindi all the time as much as possible..when jinnah and his followers opted to wear western suit and spoke in english all the time..It was simply understood at that time that jinnah was back from london to India only for power not for freedom struggle and he found an opportunity to get in to power by bringing up 2 nation theory.
Aren’t hindus and muslims living together in India now ?
I can surely claim communal violence in India is much much lower compared to pakistan. hope you agree.
To me Jinnah was not a visionary, but a power hungry smart politician.
Quasim,
DO one thing,take a loud speaker,go to Azad Kashmir and warn all the terrorists to stop killing-so people won’t be caught in the crossfires in Indian J&K. Kiddo!If Pakistan terrorists weren’t there,why do you think Your Infamous Indian troops were proudly patrolling the cities and villages of Kashmir.You will not stop terrorism but you will accuse India if people get killed,Pakistan is funny.If you got any guts,in the same Amnesty International site read about the Bangladesh massacre and please don’t accuse Indians for murdering Bangladeshis.
That is a sad news that mass graves were found
Haradhs,
That is not a nice thing to say. If Bangladeshis were murdered due to our incompetency,does that mean we should close our eyes when Kashmiris get killed? Some may die in the crossfires during anti-terrorist operations,but most of them die during questioning by the police or when the police shoots at the mob.
Saf
“…shades of grey.”
—Ofcourse , there are many a shade of grey- but, Jinnah’s place in historical accounts is based on tangible proof & indisputably falls in the category of traitors & despots…from all angles.
The best thing India could do now, in order to get long term gains in the region, is to let Kashmir go right away. Take in all Hindu and Buddhist majority regions and let the Muslim majority regions go any which way they want – be independent or accede to Pakistan. The celebrations will die down soon and reality will dawn. Kashmiri Muslims are of a very soft breed. They will not like the dominance by their Punjabhi brothers and rapid Talibanization. They will revolt and seek independence. And they will seek India’s help. India can turn the table around quickly and wait the enemy to collapse. Pakistan, being used to brutal means of achieving its ends, will collapse faster as Kashmir’s struggle will encourage Sindh, Balochistan and NWFP to revolt. India should help every ethnic group inside Pakistan at that time and it will accelerate the collapse of the country. If this happens, the Western powers will run in and try to seize the nuclear weapons so that rogue elements do not get access to them. Several problems will be solved if we let Pakistan self destruct. Patience is needed and I sincerely hope BJP does not come to power in the next elections. A Pakistan that is being pulled by the tidal waves of its internal collapse will do its best to draw India into a conflict. There will be several attacks like Mumbai very soon. They will attack during IPL matches and the next general elections. The ISI badly wants India to attack Pakistan so that it can unite all elements for sometime and thwart American efforts at the same time. This is the time to be wise and put up with enough mental resistance. If Kashmir is let go soon, within a few years they will be back begging to be taken into the union. Or at least they will be a close ally of India for their own survival. They will form a buffer state between the marauders and the India citizens. This is like a chess game. Sometimes you sacrifice a powerful queen or rook and corner the king of the opponent quickly. A diminished and dismembered Pakistan is the best choice for peace in the region. Firstly they will be busy fighting each other and leave India alone. Secondly, there will no more be of false comparisons with India. China’s plans in the region will be eliminated.
India is an ultra soft country & for the most part is ruled by minority appeasing congress party. This party supports illegal settlements of millions of Bangladesis in india & mass conversions into christianity as these groups are ready vote bank for them.
In such an environment, traitors roam free in Kashmir & keep demanding more & more. Simply, there is no hope until Indians become aware of & overcome religious, casteist,regional & linguist vote appeals.
@ haradhs
Every conflict has two sides of the story…& in this case there is the Indian side which says “PAKISTAN IS BAD, IT IS SUPPORTING TERROR” and then there is the Pakistani side which says “INDIA IS BAD, IT IS SUPPORTING TERRORISM IN KASHMIR & BALOCHISTAN”
The answer is never black & white…it always lies somewhere in the middle. Both sides have their rights & both sides also have their wrongs
I have faith in the chief minister, Omar Abdullah.
We Kashmiris want to have say in how our land is ruled.
Hence Kashmiris have given a resounding backing to the democratic elections by coming out it in such large numbers.
He should seize the opportunity and negotiate more autonomy from New Delhi.
I am afraid that independence or merger with Pakistan sounds good now but is very dangerous if thought through.
Because if we merge with Pak, the Punjabis will again dominate us and the we wont even get the autonomy that we get with the Indian Union, as the Sindhis and Baloch people will concur.
If we are independent, then we have to rely either on India or Pak for supplies and that leaves us in square one again since they both will play their games on our soil.
Atleast, with India, we have constitutional authority as well as chance to participate in the booming economy which will help improve the lives of the average Kashmiri. I appeal to all the Kashmiris to think through this comment and understand what is best for their children.