India and Pakistan aren’t always bickering, including over Kashmir, the dispute that has defined their relationship over more than six decades. Away from the public eye, top and trusted envoys from the two countries have at various times sat down and wrestled with the problem, going beyond stated positions in the public and even teasing out the contours of a deal. In the end of course, someone’s nerve failed, or something else happened and the deal was off.
Beginning 2004 and up until November 2007 India and Pakistan were embarked on a similar course and very nearly came to an agreement on Kashmir, says investigative journalist Steve Coll in an article for the New Yorker. Special envoys from the two countries met in secret in hotels in London, Bangkok and London to lay out a solution and after three years they were ready with the broad outline of a settlement that would have de-militarised Kashmir.
An abstract of the article is here and the Washington Post has a story on it.
Under the plan, the Kashmir conflict would have been resolved through the creation of an autonomous region in which local residents could move freely and conduct trade on both sides of the territorial boundary. Over time, the border would become irrelevant, and declining violence would allow a gradual withdrawal of tens of thousands of troops that now face one another across the region’s mountain passes, Coll writes.
He quotes Pakistan’s then foreign minister Khurshid Kasuri as saying that the back-channel talks had by 2007 become “so advanced that we’d come to semicolons.”
“It was huge — I think it would have changed the basic nature of the problem,” the article quoted a senior Indian official as saying. “You would have then had the freedom to remake Indo-Pakistani relations.”
But by then, then President Pervez Musharraf was so engulfed in political problems that he couldn’t sell himself, let alone a landmark deal on Kashmir . Musharraf fought for the agreement but he had slipped into a political death spiral and resigned in August 2008, the deal still-born.
As I said before it wasn’t the first time India and Pakistan took the high road to peace and then faltered. Musharraf wrote in his book In the Line of Fire that he and then Indian prime minister Atal Behari Vajpayee came close to an agreement on how to tackle Kashmir in a 2001 summit in Agra but “mysterious higher powers” had overruled and “humiliated” Vajpayee.
Going further back, the two sides are also known to have reached an agreement over the Siachen glacier, only to step back at the last minute.
But you have to wonder now after the Mumbai attacks of November 2008 if there is any room for this kind of diplomacy. The mood has soured and it would take a considerable amount of courage for anyone to step up to peacemaking in secret. Or perhaps that is all the more reason they must once again throw themselves into the challenge?
[Photos of an anti-India protest in Kashmir at the weekend, and the Taj in Mumbai]
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mauryan
“there is an Indian in every Pakistani,”
—well maybe, care a damn - there’s nothin paki in indians-but it’s traitors like you who nuture a pakistani in their bosom that’s dangerous.
- Posted by anupVikram,
- Posted by azaddpRe: Mauryan
This pusillanimous intellectual is spinning everything and suffocating the country he pretends he is defending on these international forums. I know for a fact, the lawmakers in west read these columns, especially the comments part. This joker reads and accepts Zardari as his mentor and, tomorrow he will side mushi urging him to take over India when that snake visits india later this month. Paks send Ak 47 wielding terrorists across, as they sure mean business; they don’t waste time debating/ writing on these columns. mmmmmmh …my..my..he sure misses them, so much he started looking for them on pak blogs now. This masochist thinks he is an indian version of dalailama. Wake up, while you can Mauryan and have a life.
I feel Washington and US does a very superficial job of dealing with Kashmir. Modern Indians won’t want to read up about the freedom struggle and the harsh poverty endured by Indians. Hardened leaders of newly liberated India, used to spending a long prison time - for a movement spread over all of India, supposedly uniting all strands of religion, class and sects - would have been suitably appalled by the breakup of India and the level of violence that ensured. The self-serving interest of the Pakistanis would have been too much to bear!!
All the parts that remained in that entity are now blessed with rising posperity and democracy at national and state-level. At the onset of 1966 war, irregular Pakistani forces infiltrated Kashmir, with a view to win the hearts and minds of Kashmiri and set-off a local uprising. This was to be coupled with a military push to separate the “head” from the rest of India. But it failed when Kashmiri refused to back the Pakistanis and infact turned against them. This said a lot about where Kashmiris wanted to be.
In my view, Indian government has been very soft on the issue of repatriating the displaced Pandits - or their descendants - that had been push out due to discriminatory violence. In fact, GOI/ Kashmir state should encourage people to settle in Kashmir in much the same way that Kashmiri can settle in India.
Unfortunately, development in Himalayan states has been quite hazadous, as seen by the difficulty of linking rail from Jammu northwards. These areas are inaccesible in winter/ difficult terrain, and prone to seismic activity. However, they retain their natural beauty and have sustainable populations / abundant natural resources.
Pakistan has lost most of the advantages it had from the British Raj. (I read a recent Pakistani commentator - in dailytimes- saying since Pakistan had most of the irrigated land at Independence, it deserved most of the water flowing from India!!). Its divisive policies - based on religion, its shovanistic stance v-v India, Kashmir, Bangladesh, and its vehemence to cultivate China/US/ Arab has lead to it ruination. From an Indian prospective, Pakistan should mind its business and then good luck with Chinese/ US/ Arabic friends.
India needs to improve the lives of ALL of its people. It’s starting to do that via “National Projects” but there is too much to do here. It has to provide justice to the displaced people of Kashmir (sooner or later).
- Posted by A AgarwalMauryan Mustaq
I will fight both of them- ….. Mauryan writes
I did not want to respond to you directly these past couple of days, the reason-
- Posted by azaddpI know well… indeed very well …the Indian history, as its my hobby to read it- as far back as Bhishmas India – and beyond.
The latter (Bhishma), the famous son of India (Bhumata), laid down his arms when Shikhandi showed up, that’s who you are Mauryan- *Shikhandi*.
My 2 cents buddy - Dont fight the both, instead, chose one; the kinder one, if you ask me.
I was almost a communist in college days, then I believed in congress till your * yuvraaz* surfaced, and, now I regret how immature I was.
Im happy to live in USA as I have an excuse- I cannot vote there anymore, to make a difference in your sonias India
Vedas and Gita didn’t preach hatred. But remember- Gita was sung, in a battlefield, encouraging elimination of evil .
Your mantra of inaction and infinite wait has outlived its utility.you will be a bitter oldman and alone. so, change, yes u can.
Monkey brigade volunteer writes: “commies in their own stupid way are patriots like the ones you see in India, urge you - dont insult them calling them * mauryan*”
Dear clowns,
I know and understand that it is hard for you to follow things written for intelligent people. It is all right. Keep working on it and one day you will improve. Your writings equal in intensity and stupidity to that of Pakistanis themselves. When Zardari mentioned that there is an Indian in every Pakistani, he related that to your kind. You are no different from Umair, Amir Ali and other Pakistani zealots who comment on this forum. They are on one side of the fence and you are on the other. If the fence is lifted, one cannot tell the difference between you and them. I treat all of you with the same respect. Limited in knowledge and wisdom, and lacking in civil manners, your kind unfortunately makes up the majority in the sub-continent. Otherwise the place would have advanced long ago. But that is the way things are. India is unfortunately filled with filth like you and your fellow clowns. Keep throwing mud and it won’t make a difference to me.
- Posted by MauryanAnup, Mustaq Mauryan
anup
commies in their own stupid way are patriots like the ones you see in India, urge you - dont insult them calling them * mauryan*
mustaq has a mind twisted in so many knots, even radical surgey cannt fix him up.
on a Serious note: some measure of intervention is urgently needed to save buddism in Ladakh( mustaq please dont answer)
- Posted by azaddpAt this very moment there is respite in Kashmir because of what is happening in Swat. No more Pakistani flag wavers because they do not want Kashmir to be like Swat. I find it hard to believe that Muslim-Kashmiris want to be part of Pakistan when Pakistan SOLD part of Kashmir to China (the so-called all weather friend). Plus, they recently conceded to the Taliban in Swat. So, Muslim-Kashmiris are remaining quiet until Pakistan can pull itself out of its own mess.
Jammu and Kashmir will NEVER be independent. If the Indian leave; the Pakistanis move in claiming victory followed by the Taliban mullahs and the Taliban.
If the Indians and Pakistanis leave the WHOLE region of POK and IOK. Therefore Jammu and Kashmir become independent then the Taliban mullahs and the Taliban will move in.
If Pakistan ever get Jammu & Kashmir then I know these Pakistan loving Kashmiris will be at the front of the crowd claiming VICTORY, VICTORY, VICTORY!!! Those people who wanted it to remain part of India will leave and take their businesses with them. India will close off the border, permanently. However, all the prime and pukka land will be taken by the so-called glorious Mullah leaders and Taliban and their heirs will inherit it and not even work for a living. They will put on wonderfully colourful shows to the world to show how peaceful they are and what great developments they have made. When most developments were already in placeand made by India (e.g. trains, roads and the airport). There will be supressions of freedoms that they did not expect. More people will leave Kashmir, but they cannot go to Pakistan because its no different and besides Kashmir will be a Pakistani state. They will be living in total regret. The whole territory will become a Jihadi play ground and safe haven for terrorists.
The Mullahs and Taliban will sit on their backsides and get fat boasting about their past glories with the odd trip to their Dubai luxury villa that built by some poor Kashmiri (Indian or Pakistani) on slave wages that he sends back to his wife and kids so they can buy winter fuel to stem the load shedding. The ordinary man on the street will not benefit from it at all. It may become another Swat. Kashmiris will start cursing the USA for not providing money to economically help Kashmir while they stand in line for work visas to the USA so they can earn money. However, it will never be enough because the government (and Mullahs) will take thier cuts (10%). Before you know it, they will be over 60 years old and sitting in a cafe in Rawalpindi telling stories of your past so-called glories with the same pride you had in your youth. No different to the old men who invaded Kashmir in 1947-1948.
A great man with the same name as you once said:
A man who views the world the same at fifty as he did at twenty has wasted thirty years of his life. (Mohammed Ali).
- Posted by bulletfishMauryan
“voicing alternate opinions,”
—Dude, that’s hilarious, The one’s listed by you….you lack the basic reasoning to discriminate, anyways they are a lesser evil lot compared to your commie breed…
- Posted by anupVikram,
I have no issues with anyone. What I do not like is absolute intolerance to alternate views and these guys start hurling mud right away if we do not agree with them. One of the clowns is calling me a Commie for everything I write now. Since this only a forum, I sometimes have to put them in perspective and show them how they treat others. No Pakistani ventures into this forum nowadays because they get shouted out by these guys. No country is perfect and there are lot of policy decisions which have resulted in more agony than solution. Everyone of us would have made decisions if we were in power and they may not be perfect solution either. But voices must be heard. These guys are assuming that everything I say is anti Indian. I do not need their certification stamp for my allegiance. Even Gandhi did not have full support in India. Many warped people believed he was pro-Muslim and tried to assassinate him on many occasions. Finally one of them succeeded. If these guys cannot stand alternative views on an electronic forum, I cannot imagine how these people will be in reality. Or the ordinary people who can be energized by such people.
Anyway, the insults on the internet are expected and itg is part of the game. But everyone must realize that what they throw at others comes back at them. That is fair game.
- Posted by MauryanMauryan, I have been reading this blog. Why your mind is so agitated? In response to a simple statement, you post a laundry list of ills in Indian system, most of which is true but is exteremenly irrelevant. This is perhaps the reason of you being questioned as an anti-Indian… which I don;t think you are, but you end being so. I am refering to your last few comments and also of others. It is all your choice how you deal and be defensive or over-defensive.
azzad dp: It will be nice if the person with different opinion is not labeled as a Pakistani or…..We never know who is who.
Sorry if I hurt someone.
My few cents…
- Posted by VikramKar Sevak writes: “—No hassles in accepting this, but the language that you speak is similar to the propaganda of homegrown islamic fundamentalists, the reasons you cite are the same malicious allegations of outsiders & enemies with heinous underlying motives aimed at harming our national interest - you represent falsity, nothing constructive rather like the mao supporting commies - thus ‘the enemy within’
If people are branded as ‘enemy within’ for voicing alternate opinions, then everyone inside India can be branded as such:
- Those support caste based quotas for political gains
- Those who hide behind unions for not doing work
- Those who seek bribe for even doing their jobs
- Those who bribe others to get past others
- Those who stage riots to gain political power
- Those who declare emergency to over ride court orders
- Those who swindle the country by signing defense contracts with countries that supply inferior weapons
- Those who use torture innocent people to confess to crimes that they did not commit
- Those who smuggle arms, contraband, drugs into the country
- Those who indulge in flesh trade
- Those who use bonded labor
And so on. These are much worse as enemies of the state than someone who simply voices his opinion. I am not an active member of any organization that works under ground in subversive activities. I support my country where it matters. But I will stand up for what is right and criticize or condemn what I consider as not right. And I will have no hesitation in voicing it.
- Posted by Mauryanmauryan
- Posted by anup“We are wrong where we are wrong.”
—No hassles in accepting this, but the language that you speak is similar to the propaganda of homegrown islamic fundamentalists, the reasons you cite are the same malicious allegations of outsiders & enemies with heinous underlying motives aimed at harming our national interest - you represent falsity, nothing constructive rather like the mao supporting commies - thus ‘the enemy within’
Here is an interesting web site regarding Kashmir. Read those posts and it might help cool your noses a bit.
http://kashmir-truth-be-told.blogspot.co m/
- Posted by MauryanTo all the clowns:
As soon as the Pakistanis go silent, you guys pick another common enemy from within and start beating around him. I am no Pakistani. I am one among you and as a result your insults will not make me silent. I will voice my concerns and opinions where I see fit. Political truths differ depending on the perspectives of the individuals. Sometimes we see together on some issues and sometimes we do not. I would never say you are wrong in your views. I will offer my counter points and you offer yours. But try not to get emotional and carried away. Some of you are indulging in personal insults. These attempts will not drive me away.
Here is what you all must remember when considering India-Pakistan issues - Those who live in glass houses, should try not to throw stones at each other. There are some valid points from our side and so is the case from their side. We will bring them forth here and share them. Take what you like and leave what you do not like. Pakistan has a bag load of history for which it can be taken for trial. So does India. So does every other country. What I discuss here are what I think are fair. I cannot speak for you and I do not want you to speak for myself either. Writing one’s opinions on a harmless forum like this is not tantamount to betrayal of one’s nation. We are wrong where we are wrong. You may not agree with me on issues I consider as right or wrong. That does not mean that you should try to force it on everyone who has a different view, calling me a commie, Muslim fanatic etc. They will not change my stance. I am not being adamant here. The arguments provided are not convincing enough for me.
Anyway, I enjoy writing on this forum and like reading others’ comments as well. Whether you like it or not, I will be writing my views and they may be different from you. Sorry if it irks.
- Posted by Mauryan@You will get replies form Mustaq Mauryan which will make you regret you ever addressed this characterless dude. Go analyze yourselves his post addressing me below. His objective is a smear campaign on a largely onesided blog. He is an antiindian. He and his father cozy up with Pakis, he is more Mustaq as his first name says than Mauryan as his last name. Dhar and Bhatt are both terrorists from Srinagar; names mean nothing….. wake up people.
- Posted by Azaad dp
Azaad dp:
- Posted by rajeevInternet/blogging are great mode of communication and let people express their views without hindrance. I like this because you come to know of people who in person are unable to express themselves with such freedom for political correctness sake. Smear campaigns and raidly prolifeeating anti-India propaganada sites has not changed world’s views about India.
Thanks for your link.
Mauryan:
I changed my mind and here it is:
@1. This is not your forum. You do not own it. You do not make the rules for others. This is for everyone to express what they want. If it appears like garbage to you, so be it.—All true. express the garbage.
@2. Do expect others to fall in line with you. That is emotional. And emotional people cannot expect logic from others. I am not here to justify everything to you.
-I did not know I am talking to someone who will not change this position: “I know that my views on K-issue are not going to change a thing in the region, neither will it stop Pakistan from spreading terrorism in India, and in fact it might be worse, but I will not change my position since freedom of expression is my birthright”.
@3. You suddenly felt a lot for the 155 Indian Muslims when I made a remark about surrender. Yet you did not care about my father’s contribution. Just because my views antagonize you, you cannot choose to be abusive on one matter and be very caring in another.
–I am consistent. Lost context of 155 Indian Muslims. First time I advised you not to attack Islam–makes sense to me. Second time @1971 E.Pak. I did not abuse anyone. stop this spin game. I was wondering at your judiciousness to quote a statement on the forum from your dad (just one person’s views), meaning you agree that Indians spit more venom against Pakistanis. Note: I defended his position saying “he might have some context” but was apalled at you for putting this up on the forum–generlization. I know the reason now–freedom of expression. BTW I never criticize army/army person-words are not enough for their sacrifices in war and peace time.
@4. No one has any valid data to claim that they are right on many political matters. It all is matter of which side of the fence you are on. You go to Pakistani forums where a lot more of them write than here, your “valid” arguments will disappear into thin air.
–So did your valid arguments disappear into thin air on Pakistani forums? or were they loved by everyone on those Pakistani forums?
@5. I am not posting my views to convince and convert anyone. Stick to what you think is right. Let everyone shape their views if they want to.
-………………..
@6. I have clashed with a variety of people on various issues and I am used to insults and abuses. When people run out of ideas, they resort to foul language and intimidation. As far as I am concerned, they are as effective as darts hitting a rhino’s rear end. I am not singling you out here. I am referring to the others as well.
-Do not forget to refer to yourself.
@7. If my views hurt you, I am sorry. That’s all I can say. No one can tell me what to write. I will write what I think is right.
- Posted by rajeev-Your views scare me.
Mauryan, Mustaq.
My psychoanalysis about Mustaq -they often play (humengously) larger than life roles wrapped up under sheets in dark bedrooms –proved accurate when he almost rechristened himself with Gandhi, Emperors CGMaurya, Ashoka and what not; Yes these dudes have had a violent and traumatic child hood, I wish I could help him especially if he is here in USA. He thought he would get loudest applause mentioning his family’s military background; I never thought that I shd declare my father’s service history. I have my serious reservations if Mustaq is from a military family, if at all he is, then is a disgrace to men in uniform.
The Paks will continue to engage in antiindian activity, falsely claiming a victim status urging sympathy from muslim countries and west alike, as its local contributory role fulfilling the global caliphate agenda of muslims. See whats happening to Buddhists in Ladakh, India- a systematic conversions and an obscene persecution of this hapless minority goes on under states supervision. Wow- What kind of secularism India has for its citizens. American tax dollars are poured into this abyss called Pak and Afghan. At least it is partly justified to entertain the latter which is in its infantile democracy stage. As for Pak- 60 yrs is way too late to repeat same treatment- cancer will not respond to multivitamins, instead an aggressive therapy may increase survival rate. The 12-15 billions poured down the drain is a huge disservice to American tax payers. Chinese, Russians, Europe can join US to pressurize and modify the curriculum in madarassas, which is what needed in long term, after initial military successes.
- Posted by azaddp