Obama takes Afghan war to Pakistan

March 27, 2009

U.S. President Barack Obama set out his strategy to fight the war in Afghanistan on Friday, committing 4,000 military trainers and many more civillian personnel to the country, increasing military and financial aid to stabilise Pakistan and signalling that the door for reconciliation was open in Afghanistan for those who had taken to arms because of coercion or for a price.

He said the situation was increasingly perilous, with 2008 the bloodiest year for American forces in Afghanistan. But the United States  was determined to “disrupt, dismantle, and defeat al Qaeda in Pakistan and Afghanistan”, he said, warning that attacks on the United States were being plotted even now.

But it is the emphasis on Pakistan that seems to be the most significant shift in the U.S. strategy since it went into Afghanistan more than seven years ago, with an avowedly aggressive carrot and stick approach. Time columnist Joe Klein said the most important aspect of the security review was a refocusing on the situation in Pakistan. “The terrorist safe havens in the tribal areas is the heart of the problem.”

Obama left little doubt that Pakistan was going to be front and centre of the war in Afghanistan, declaring this is where the top al Qaeda leadership was based.  And that their presence there posed a threat to not just America, but countries around the world from Europe to Africa and above all to Pakistan itself.

Here are some excerpts from his speech relating to Pakistan.

“In the nearly eight years since 9/11, al-Qaida and its extremist allies have moved across the border to the remote areas of the Pakistani frontier. This almost certainly includes al-Qaida’s leadership: Osama bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri. They have used this mountainous terrain as a safe haven to hide, to train terrorists, to communicate with followers, to plot attacks and to send fighters to support the insurgency in Afghanistan. For the American people, this border region has become the most dangerous place in the world.”

“But this is not simply an American problem — far from it. It is, instead, an international security challenge of the highest order. Terrorist attacks in London and Bali were tied to al-Qaida and its allies in Pakistan, as were attacks in North Africa and the Middle East, in Islamabad and in Kabul. If there is a major attack on an Asian, European or African city, it, too, is likely to have ties to al-Qaida’s leadership in Pakistan. The safety of people around the world is at stake.”

America, he said, wanted results from both Pakistan and Afghanistan.

“And after years of mixed results, we will not, and cannot, provide a blank check. Pakistan must demonstrate its commitment to rooting out al-Qaida and the violent extremists within its borders. And we will insist that action be taken — one way or another — when we have intelligence about high-level terrorist targets.”

Will Obama’s stratetgy work? If Pakistan played ball,  it would get an unprecedented amount of military and financial aid, several experts said. “President Obama understands to get the support of the Pakistani people, which will make it easier to get the help we need from the Pakistani government, it takes carrots. And his plan focuses squarely on that,” wrote Jon Soltz, a former U.S. army captain in Iraq, in the Huffington Post.

Soltz said an even more striking part of Obama’s strategy was his willingness to deal with those who were not hard core Taliban.

“There is an uncompromising core of the Taliban. They must be met with force, and they must be defeated. But there are also those who have taken up arms because of coercion, or simply for a price. These Afghans must have the option to choose a different course. That is why we will work with local leaders, the Afghan government, and international partners to have a reconciliation process in every province,” Obama said.

In so doing and by signalling that he was ready to become partners with those who the United States was fighting today,  Obama had “given up the pipe dream of setting up a European-style democracy in Afghanistan, and instead has refocused our goals on a more urgent mission – protecting America and the world from terrorism” Soltz said.

But what about Pakistanis themselves? The popular All Things Pakistan blog noted that Obama had spoken to the Pakistani people and so invited them to comment on his remarks. Some of the early comments were generally positive, with one reader saying he was glad the United States had realised the high cost Pakistan was paying. “It is the Pakistanis who have been doing all the dying.”  .

(Reuters photos: President Barack Obama; Afghan women in Taloqan; Pakistani soldiers in Wana)

 

 

Comments

US DEMOCRATIC SENATOR RUSSELL FEINGOLD:
The proposed military escalation in Afghanistan, without an adequate strategy in Pakistan, could make the situation worse, not better.

We need to fully address the inextricable links between the crisis in Afghanistan and the instability and terrorist threats in Pakistan.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/79 68684.stm

Pakistan pessimism at Obama revamp
“The drift of the speech suggests that drone attacks will increase, and their area may be expanded to Balochistan [province] as well,” leading journalist Rahimullah Yusufzai told Geo TV

Analyst Zahid Hussain agreed it appeared that “in the coming days the Americans would be more aggressive in the border region, with US troops possibly pursuing the militants into Pakistani tribal areas”

“Lumping Pakistan with Afghanistan means that Afghanistan’s problems have been heaped on Pakistan.”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7968 716.stm

White House Won’t Rule Out Troops for Pakistan War
http://blog.wired.com/defense/2009/03/wh ite-house-won.html

Posted by Global Citizen | Report as abusive
 

Atlast there it took 8 years for the US to realize the reality on ground and finally they have come to conclusion. This is a long term strategy and it should work, the situation in Afghanistan has destablized Pakistan greatly. Now is the time to get on board and sort this mess. Finally US has shown some leadership, which is a good sign.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

“President Obama understands to get the support of the Pakistani people, which will make it easier to get the help we need from the Pakistani government, it takes carrots….”

— & Sticks!

Posted by anup | Report as abusive
 

“It is the Pakistanis who have been doing all the dying.”

—Who else do they expect to…???

Posted by anup | Report as abusive
 

@Sanjeev,

Now that Obama has made the right decision to topple the Taliban, those hardcore inflexible Taliban in Afghanistan are armed by the Pakistani Government and get all their weapons from Afghanistan.

Once the Taliban are defeated the next step is to topple Islamabad and Rawalpindi and give Pakistan a military regime change. This will mark the disintegration of Pakistan as we know it. The Pak Military and ISI and non-state actors will have no where to hide.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive
 

I hope Pakistanis understand and appreciate the value of USD 7.5 billion free aid in this recession. In America people are sleeping in parking lots and eating yogurt to live. These are American tax payer dollars. Even Obama is arguing with bank chiefs over few hundred thousand dollar bonuses!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7585 696.stm

Even Pakistan’s close friends like Saudi, China didn’t loan them a penny! Hope, Pakistan will make good use of money rather than buying weapons, fighter planes from China.

Posted by David | Report as abusive
 

Now we know the size of the carrot. But what is the size of the stick?

Posted by Outsider | Report as abusive
 

Obama sounds more and more like Bush – just another example of why we need to simply fire everybody who has ever held political office in Washingtron and start over. Once someone gets elected – they morph into the “american president” there are no republicans or democrats anymore – just opportunists who use any crisis, any corruption and any cost to amass more and mre power – watch out Pakistan – we’re coming to get you next….

Posted by Gary | Report as abusive
 

Outsider,
“It is not clear, however, what sticks are available if Pakistan does not follow through”

Obama is not saying the size now, but we’ll find out in a few months

http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/i dUSTRE52Q69C20090327

Posted by Global Citizen | Report as abusive
 

United States had realised the high cost Pakistan was paying. “It is the Pakistanis who have been doing all the dying.”

Correction to the typographic error (I am sure):

“It is the Pakistanis who have been doing all the lying.”

And lie they did all these years while sucking up all dollars and letting the criminals have a field day.

If they do not wind up their acts, they will be “lying” in a ditch.

 

1. In his speech President Obama, ommitted to mention the existence of terrorist camps spread across length and breadth of Pakistan and no action proposed against them .
2. There is no mention of use and accountability of aid, in past even with the knowledge of US administration, Pakistan had used US aid to buy ammunition to counter some alleged threat from India
3.Though Obama Administration clearly is aware of links between ISI, Pak Army with terrorists , but still President has not proposed an action against such elements.
4.US Administration is aware that ISI is actvely passing on the information about counter terrorist activities to terrorists, yet President has not proposed disbanding of ISI
5. The presence of nuclear weapons in Pakistan poses great danger to international community, yet President Obama did not propose any action against these weapons

Posted by anju2008 | Report as abusive
 

US accuses Pakistan spies of helping Al Qaeda

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/art icle/ALeqM5jBs_MR2HFabpaowjNKkGDWHomWvw

Pakistan is the one creating the terrorism, namely the jihadi proxy armies being nurtured and grown for Afghanistan and India. Obama will be deceived and lie-to by Pakistan. Pakistan will continue to befuddle and obfuscate and fog away any evidence point at it, despite the intelligence pointing directly at Pakistan.

There will come a day of reckoning for Pakistan, where the Pak Army and ISI players will be set a trap by the Americans and Pakistan will be caught red handed, in one hand taking U.S. dollars, while in the other hand giving weapons to the same Terrorists that kill Americans and kill Indian Kashmiris.

Pakistan will continue to stick its chin up, even being caught red handed in a terrorism trap by the U.S. The U.S. Right Wing NEOCONS may want the U.S. to do a regime change in Pakistan, if Al-Qaeda and the Taliban are not defeated or contained, with respect to Pakistani influence in Afganistan.

Obama is walking on eggshells right as he must produce results and squeeze the jugulars in Pakistan’s neck to force it to comply and succeed. If Obama cannot fix Pakistan and there is another terrorist attack on the U.S., emanating from these tribal areas, Obama will lose the next time at the polls. At that point in time, U.S. NEOCONS far more radicalized than the Bush Administration will come to power at the promise of “settling a score” with Pakistan.

It is this future administration, that will bring about the regime change in Pakistan, which will be bloody beyond anything Pakistan has ever seen. The U.S. will get its way.

The U.S. is reluctant to admit, what India and the world already knows, the head of all the terrorism is sitting in the Military offices in Rawalpindi and Islamabad.

The U.S. will give Pakistan one choice, denuclearize, become honest and we not regime change you, or defy us and be obliterated “back to the stone age”.

Holbrooke and Obama MUST you knee smashing diplomacy with the Pak Army and ISI before it considers any direct confrontation with Pakistan.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive
 

http://www.theage.com.au/world/pakistan- violence-underlines-need-for-obama-to-ac t-20090328-9etz.html

There is now a generation in the world of youth, who have observed so many suicide attacks by Muslim Youth, they hear “God is great” and then many muslims are killed.

It is horrible, but now the public is being conditioned by the acts of muslims to perceive Islam as a violent, hateful death cult that utters the name of God and brings death moments after……

Moderate muslims may say…well they are not muslims…well the public opionion does not feel that way, since the suicide attackers say “Allah” before every suicide attack, what other religion could they be?

Muslims are dirtying their own religion for political gain and using the misguided and poor and lying to them in their weakened mental state to use themselves to kill other muslims.

Is this what Islam is becoming? What else is the world supposed to think?

The prophet, may peace be with him, would be horrified.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive
 

One reason why most Pakistanis are parroting the same lines everywhere can be discerned by reading this article.

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/Dawn %20Content%20Library/dawn/news/pakistan/ zia-s-revenge—il

When public mindset is beginning to get unanimous hatred, propaganda has succeeded. Pakistan’s intelligence system has taken a much more sinister dimension. It has managed to brain wash its people more successfully.

 

Global Watcher / Mauryan / anju2008
Excerpts from:
“The Holes in Obama’s Afghanistan Plan by Leslie H. Gelb”

‘With great strength and steely determination in his voice and demeanor, President Obama presented his one-shoe policy toward Afghanistan and Pakistan on Friday. The one shoe was to assure Americans, Afghans, Pakistanis, and the world that the great American commitment to fighting terrorism would not be “a blank check.”
Blessedly, the president excluded from those goals the principal Bush effort to transform Afghanistan into a democratic, free-market paradise. (The resurrection of that effort will have to wait for the Palin administration.)
But nowhere did he drop the other shoe.’

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-s tories/2009-03-27/the-trouble-with-obama s-afghanistan-plan/2/

Posted by anup | Report as abusive
 

Guy’s,

Distrusted , By: Spencer Ackerman

“Some in the administration are skeptical that the Pakistanis will meet their commitments under the new strategy. “You have people there who just lie to our face, like Zardari, who just lies to us,” said one official who requested anonymity, referring to the Pakistani president. “Honestly, I don’t believe there’s a war going on in the tribal areas. The Pakistanis tell us that, but they’re just baldfaced lies.” The official believes that U.S. diplomats in Pakistan accept Pakistani claims of maximal warfighting efforts at face value: “They don’t speak Urdu, they don’t speak Pashto, and they eat it all up.”
Now this is the sort of quote you can’t get without promising anonymity.
Like Metallica said YOOO KNOW IT’S SAD BUT TRU-HOOOOO.

http://attackerman.firedoglake.com/2009/ 03/27/distrusted/

Posted by anup | Report as abusive
 

When death nears, insects run to the flame!

Pakistanis are running to US looking at the size of the carrot, but little do they know about the size of the stick!

Posted by Global Citizen | Report as abusive
 

“For the American people, this border region has become the most dangerous place in the world.”

Exactly how many of “the American people” routinely visit the border area and why, why, why, would we give on c*#p about spending billions more to secure an area of the world were we don’t belong or are wanted?

Oh yeah, that’s right, so Cheney and Co. can continue to rape the American financial and taxation system through lucrative corporate war contracts, even though he no longer holds public office. Now it is all becoming clear!

America needs to leave the world to the world and bring our troops home (the Pakistani people are far from stupid, if they want to fix a situation, IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY ON THEIR BORDER, they will fix it, they don’t need us to ‘rescue’ them).

And REALLY people our Military and Government has SUCH a good record with “border control” (we can’t even secure our own border) that sending us off to save another countries border is completely laughable. Fix OUR own border FIRST! Maybe after our troops get some real experience on their own soil, we can talk about sending them into the world to ‘save some other countries borders from the danger of illegal activities’.

We have an economic crisis HERE that needs our money and people HERE repairing the damage that the Corporate Capitalist Empire of the elite rich committed already!

Posted by Kiki | Report as abusive
 

Kiki writes: “We have an economic crisis HERE that needs our money and people HERE repairing the damage that the Corporate Capitalist Empire of the elite rich committed already!”

If the American government had not dipped its hands in this area in 1978, you will not be crying here. They should have left it to the Soviets and in my opinion, a lot of good would have happened to the region. The Soviets did not care for human rights and would have castrated most of the fundamentalists in Afghanistan. Pakistan could have been contained long ago. What America did at that time to get at the Soviets, won them a battle. But they lost the war. Religion is a dangerous thing if allowed to burst into flames. Islamic followers are even worse in that regard. They courted the wrong people to achieve their means of getting even with the Soviets and are paying the price for it. Pakistanis got into the wrong deal to achieve its means of getting even with India and are now paying the price for it as well. Pakistanis hate India passionately as much as Americans hated the Communists. Communists are gone. And now Pakistan will be gone too. America would have been responsible for both ends. But they will mud for getting into the pit. Short sighted global policies will always come back to bite in the long run. Hope the Americans have learned that. May be you need a constitutional amendment where declaring war on another country needs more than 75% of public vote. If that power was vested with the people, Bush could never have ventured into Iraq when Afghanistan was burning. May be you people should demand more rights in your democratic set up. It is getting old and archaic.

 

As part of new regional strategy, the demand on Pakistan to “cut ties between parts of its government and the Taliban” seems to be at odds with the desire to “peel away up to three quarters of the Taliban’s rank and file in Afghanistan from the Taliban’s leadership”. Instead of engaging in the anti-ISI campaign, the US should see Pakistan’s ISI’s Taliban links as assets in America’s efforts to reconcile with the vast majority of the Taliban. The British already see the value of the ISI-Taliban ties. According to the New York Times, the British government has sent several dispatches to Islamabad in recent months asking that the ISI use its strategy meetings with the Taliban to persuade its commanders to scale back violence in Afghanistan before the August presidential election there. There are reports that the Taliban leaders based in Pakistan have closed ranks with their Afghan comrades to prepare for a new offensive in Afghanistan as the United States sends more troops there this year.

As to the US demand on Pakistan to stop focusing military resources on its ongoing rivalry with India, the failure to help resolve the long-standing Kashmir dispute and the recent Indian war rhetoric in the aftermath of Mumbai make such a demand practically unacceptable by Pakistanis, even if they agree on paper.

As is often said, the India-Pakistan dispute over Kashmir is much more about Indus water than about a piece of land. The headwaters of the Indus River are located in Kashmir. Whomever controls the headwaters, controls the river. The Indus is vital. It brings green fertile life wherever it flows. The Indus begins in Kashmir, then flows through Pakistan, then flows into mainland India. If India chose, since Kashmir is controlled by it, they could dam the Indus and change the flow of the river, as they are apparently doing at Baglihar over Chenab. Without fertile land to grow crops, Pakistan would become a desert and its people would starve.

Notwithstanding additional US aid to Pakistan, the unilateral and impractical demands on Pakistanis by the Obama administration while continuing Predator strikes and dismissing the strategic interests of Pakistan in its neighborhood, do not add up to a serious and workable strategy. Such a strategy may look good on paper but it will not lead to US success on the ground in Afghanistan.

 

by funding pakistan’s exceptionally corrupted elite, obama is living out a short-term fantasy instead of working towards a proper solution to the afghan mess created by the US of A. now sit back and watch how zardari and the pak military squander this one..

Posted by Mr. Ketchup | Report as abusive
 

Mr. Ketchup,
If Obama misses the targets, Palin will come in 4 yrs. She is good in aerial shooting. No cave will save zardari and the pak military. They better get some wisdom now.

Posted by Global Citizen | Report as abusive
 

Should India be worried about US aid to Pakistan?

There is substantial military aid apart from the USD 7.5 billion financial aid? How is US going to stop Pakistan from buying Chinese planes or putting the military crafts near Kashmir border?

Is India consulted in the aid process? History shows us that everytime Pakistan gets free USD, India feels the effects in Kashmir or Delhi or Mumbai.

Posted by David | Report as abusive
 

US military deaths in Afghanistan region at 599: Forbes

Sad .. US people are paying from both sides. Borrowing from Chinese and paying to Pakis.

Posted by David | Report as abusive
 

Global Citizen:

You mention Sarah Palin. Lest we forget Mr. Zardari already has had an attempted fling with her ( http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0  ,8599,1844925,00.html )

I am sure she hasn’t forgotton or forgiven, and if Palin were to ever come to power it would be PAY BACK TIME. But I don’t think Zardari can last that long, especially given the dissent in his own party..

Posted by Mr. Ketchup | Report as abusive
 

“If the American government had not dipped its hands in this area in 1978, you will not be crying here.”

Mauryan, for the record, I am not crying. I am, however, furious with our wretched attempt at ‘foreign policy’ as an excuse to assign more money and contracts to an elite group of Americans that don’t represent the ideology of the ‘American People’ anymore than they represent the thoughts and wishes of Afghan or Pakistani people.

Nor do I (or probably even you, if you are honest) believe that the Soviet intervention would have been the ‘best’ solution for the people of Pakistan or Afghanistan. Occupation is general not historically celebrated by the occupied, no matter how many times CNN reports a peoples ‘appreciation and gratitude’.

I fully understand our role in shaping, financing and encouraging the Mujahideen to ‘punish’ the Soviets (I even remember when these same people were considered by the American people, and its government, to be ‘freedom fighters’ for liberty against the ‘communists’, I was only 9, but I remember them).

The Soviets might have been able to supply the Fist of Steel and Blood necessary to pacify the region, and drive the people before this same Fist, but this is not leadership, only a short term solution, after which unrest would continue.

The position of the American government is that the current situation is the result of a crisis not in ‘leadership’ but in ‘appropriate Corporate Capitalist leadership’. The Soviets would have failed the same way that we will fail. Dictatorships/occupations burn hot, weak and fast, lasting no longer than their strongest leader, nor are those same leaders interested in training strength or competence into their followers for the obvious reasons.

Religion accelerates a fire that is already burning, it is not the original problem. It is interesting for me, as an outsider and a non-Muslim, to see my government trying to prevent, control and oust religious leadership from the region.

Although I do not share the ideals of the Islamic movement, as the fastest growing government of Priest Kings on the globe, the Islamic religion is perhaps the only force in the world that will challenge the Corporate Capitalist Elite (CCE), for power, over the next 50 years. It is no mystery to most thoughtful people that this is not about durable goods or resources but a true threat to the underpinning of a Corporate Capitalist society (and I don’t mean by ‘terrorist’ actions, it is a threat of heart, soul and mind that American leaders fear).

The CCE must have trouble sleeping at night knowing that the enemy they seek to crush into the dust actually believes in their own actions as righteous, how that must frustrate and infuriate them. Men who can’t be bought, can’t be controlled.

Posted by Kiki | Report as abusive
 

Kiki,

You got bored, huh? No Jon Stewart on TV tonight?

I recommend you keep chatting with Mauryan. You two make a cute couple. His overwhelming sense of humility and compassion will blend well with your bounding optimism and faith in humanity. By the way, your fiscal policy is interesting. I hear Hugo Chavez wants it back.

Posted by Patrick | Report as abusive
 

Riaz Haq
“As is often said, the India-Pakistan dispute over Kashmir is much more about Indus water than about a piece of land. The headwaters of the Indus River are located in Kashmir. .”
“The Indus begins in Kashmir, then flows through Pakistan, then flows into mainland India.”

**‘The Indus river Originates in theTibetan plateau in the vicinity of Lake Mansarovar,(under Chinese control, usurped from India in 1962) the river runs a course through Ladakh district in India and the Northern Areas(Gilgit-Baltistan), (usurped from India by Pakistan in 1948) flowing through the North in a southerly direction, It gradually bends to the south, coming out of the hills between Peshawar and Rawalpindi to merge into the Arabian Sea near Pakistan’s port city of Karachi.’

—Where’s the ‘piece of land’, the Kashmir valley – anywhere in the picture?

“Whomever controls the headwaters, controls the river.”
“If India chose, since Kashmir is controlled by it, they could dam the Indus and change the flow of the river,”
—-‘If India choose’ – well as long as it is not, it’s all merely wild speculation….
But But But…how bout this!

“China builds dam on Indus in Tibet,keeps Pakistan uninformed”
Alice Albinia, a British journalist and writer who recently visited Indus up to its roots, wrote in her book ‘Empires of the Indus’ that “All the water that drains from these mountains, I remember, is currently being stopped by the new dam at Senge-Ali,” she wrote.
Source: http://www.thenews.com.pk/print1.asp?id= 167900
Now will Pakistan produce ‘freedom fighters’ for Tibet?
It would’ve been more wiser if highly intellectual & esteemed citizens like you had engaged in more compassionate & constructive activities like pressurizing the authorities to ensure max. utilization & mordernization of the existing obsolete infrastructure on the Indus, rather than engaging in spreading of the malicious paranoia of India among the simple folks.

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive
 

Obama is that latest puppet put in “power” by the US elite (capitalists) to run the pipe line from the central asia to Karachi exclusively for Europe, mega dollars in profit.

The current fragile economic conditions in the western nations begs the US to get the “oil situation” fixed before european nations go bankrupt paying for unreliable russian oil, used as a weapon in the cold winter months.

Pakistan from its inception has been an American ally of sorts sucking on mummy USA taxpayers teats for geopolitical reasons. The leadership in Pakistan is so used to American aid that its part of their national budget. Though the American taxpayers are protesting, they really don’t have a real say in their democracy, which is bought and paid for by the same lobbists Obama so complains about.

If Bush or Obama really cared about terrorism or Al Quaida they would have carpet bombed Pakistani and Afhganistani terror camps as Nixon did in Vietnam – clearly not the case here. These leaders openly lie (its called diplomacy btw) about “democratizing” and “helping Pakistan fight terror” etc. To reduce taliban resistance they bribe the Pakistani leadership, and Pakistan fully expects it as well, to cooperate and even temporarily to stop taliban infiltration, to get what they want – stabilize Afghaistan to set up their oil pipline period.

The Americans military brass, who have far more integrity and honesty can’t stand dealing with or relying on the ever morphing Paksitani leadership and fully know Pakistan is making it more “expensive” for the US by killing US and Nato troops via their proxy the Pak Taliban, so palms will have to be greased to calm things down a bit. Soon the same enemy taliban will be on US payroll to protect the pipeline against wahabi Al quaida supported by Saudi rebel princes, financed by US petro dollars. The other way to control Pakistan is via drone attacks, which are also used by the US when things go awry to get the message home loud and clear in Islamabad.

Peace.

Posted by Nathuram Waghmare | Report as abusive
 

well at last some strategy …but i agree with america that it cannot work without the participation and commitment of pakistan…and it also has to make sure that all parties are involved..looks like they heading in the right direction but its a huge ask…

though india would not like to get involved too much into this as sending troops to afganistan would be a strategic advantage but that will increase the distrust in pakistan .india is already fulfilling the reconstruction commitments..

these are the toughest times for pakistan…but look at the pakistani govt.doesn’t seem strong enough..

additional troops can help , there can be reconstruction in afganistan too, a change in leadership in afganistan will definately help…the only area of concern is the pak govt.. its hard to trust the competancy of pak govt..especially as its headed by mr 10%.

the developments in the next few months will make things much more clear in afghanistan,pakistan..and ofcourse for india too as there will be a new indian govt …

Posted by Raging bull | Report as abusive
 

As an initial reaction, I feel that much depends on Pakistan’s ability and willingness to take on the Taliban and Al Qaida operatives head on. So far, at least, these are two big question marks for me.It cannot continue running with the hare and hunting with the hounds. Best to be optimistic about it to start with.

 

I wonder if all this stuff is true. I found out from the Father of one of the Troops that we are protecting Chinas interests in the Aynak Copper reserves located South of Kabul in the Jalrez valley. How come China is NOT supporting the fight against the taliban with their troops and/or money but depending on us? John

Posted by ginsengjohn | Report as abusive
 

Kiki writes: “I am, however, furious with our wretched attempt at ‘foreign policy’ as an excuse to assign more money and contracts to an elite group of Americans that don’t represent the ideology of the ‘American People’ anymore than they represent the thoughts and wishes of Afghan or Pakistani people.”

Kiki,

The politics in the region is at least a thousand years old. It is much older than the whole history of the USA. All the feelings of distrust, vengeance and venom have survived over generations and have amplified with time. In this scenario, the entry of powers from afar only fuels the conflagration even further. I don’t think any Western power can come in and start cutting pipe lines without digging into the local sentiments. Ignoring what has been dug will only bring more calamity.

The venom between Pakistanis and Indians dates back to the raids of Mohammed of Ghazni who razed down a famous Hindu temple, took its idol and placed it in the foot steps of his mosque. At that time, many Muslim Pakistanis of today had Hindu or Buddhist ancestors. What started then, has etched a series of similar memories throughout the land where the Muslim emperors desecrated Hindu temples, raped their women, looted their wealth, imposed taxes on them and kept the subjugation going for almost 800 years. This memory never left the people of the land. Imagine, one knock at the twin towers in New York can agitate everyone’s mind so much, including non-Americans. Now imagine a series of them where people felt powerless watching their beliefs crushed, edifices destroyed and faith threatened.

The rise of the Marathas, and the arrival of the British finally destroyed the grip from people belonging to an alien faith from holding the sub-continent.

I do not want to teach you the history of the land here. You can read about it and understand the depth of the problem (History of India by Romilla Thapar and Perceival Spear is a good start).

The Indian leaders of freedom movement wanted to follow the Western ideals and keep religion out of politics. They envisioned a secular nation. This is when the first mistake was committed. Selfish leaders like Jinnah, who could compare with any Aryan nation leader in the US or the KKK, instigated violence and murder that led to the partition of the land.

So when outside powers like the US get involved in the region and ignore the local sentiments to achieve their goals, things go out of control. I remember in 1979 when India was told bluntly by Wienberger, “We understand India’s sentiments. But Pakistan has a problem.” Indian warnings about the consequences were completely ignored and Pakistan was fed with arms and training that is haunting the world today.

Countries like UK, France are old colonial powers. They have not changed their mentality. Warring nations mean profit for them. They want to sell weapons to all warring parties and make money. UK, France, Sweden etc are the ones that must be curtailed first if the US has to make any long lasting impressions.

For cultures of this kind (Afghan, Pakistani), one should never make a half hearted attempt. Either you go entirely ruthless like the Soviets or do not even get involved. The Communists, be it USSR or China were good at wiping out cultures entirely. Look at what China is doing in Tibet. That is why I feel leaving the Soviets in charge of Afghanistan would have worked. They had done the same emasculation of the Mongol Central Asian regions successfully. Even if they had collapsed after that, they would have brought in a change to this region. These people work under the stick better than by any other means.

 

ginsengjohn, you said:

“I wonder if all this stuff is true. I found out from the Father of one of the Troops that we are protecting Chinas interests in the Aynak Copper reserves located South of Kabul in the Jalrez valley. How come China is NOT supporting the fight against the taliban with their troops and/or money but depending on us? John

- Posted by ginsengjohn

We have covered this in this post:

http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2009/0 3/23/in-afghanistan-china-extends-its-re ach/

Posted by Myra MacDonald | Report as abusive
 

mmm… interesting that foreign sticks seem to work better to emasculate. May be the entire subcontinent should be handed over to British for another century. It will help avoid the bleeding in SriLanka, Bangladesh, India, Pakistan, Afganistan. It would stop the blood demanders like Ladens, LTTE, LET, Sangh Parivars, This that Senas, HUJI, etc etc. By then the locals will get better sense to live together, instead of finding excuses to plot schemes to create riots to come to power or get power. British did say Indians would not rule well. It applies to the entire subcontinent as well, from seeing what happens each day in India and around.

 

President Obama was first elected by the left wing which include Chuck Shumer,Barney Frank, Paul Krugman, don’t forget acorn and all the phony registrations and also SEIU which was responsible for demonstration against AIG and so on and so forth.

He during election campaign was centrist but changed his tune afterwards. He has broken most of the promises and the whole world knows about it. I am sure people in Pakistan will take note of that.

Posted by VJ | Report as abusive
 

4subcontinent writes: “British did say Indians would not rule well. It applies to the entire subcontinent as well, from seeing what happens each day in India and around”

Pakistanis somehow desperately try to equate Pakistan with India and drag it along with their miserable state. India has moved on. It was teetering on the edge and it looked as though it would prove the British right. But its overall secular and democratic system has managed to push them forward towards a better condition. If they continue for a few more decades, they will emerge a very stable and strong democracy. The riots, leaders etc that you mention in India are too small to make a global impact on the whole nation.

Pakistan unfortunately is controlled by a martial group who have war running in their bloods. And their hair is burning with religious fanaticism. They have chosen the wrong path. As a result, I was referring to Pakistan specifically as those who need to be kept under control by a bunch of powers.

Sorry if it hurts.

 

4subContinent
“May be the entire subcontinent should be handed over to British for another century.”

—Would the bunch of thieving mercenaries dare!

Posted by anup | Report as abusive
 

well anup and mauryan i think british were the problem and not the solution..

It’s such an ironic thing. Before the British came, India was one of the world’s great economies. For 200 years India dwindled and dwindled into almost nothing. Fifty years after they left we have finally begun to reclaim our place in the world.

All the empirical facts show you that British rule was a disaster for India. Before the British came 25% of the world trade originated in India. By the time they left it was less than 1%.
for more enlitening facts check out
“sea of poppies” by amitav gosh.

Posted by Raging bull | Report as abusive
 

“the arrival of the British finally destroyed the grip from people belonging to an alien faith from holding the sub-continent. ”

Funniest thing I’ve heard… from one slavery to another, happily…

Posted by Same..old.. | Report as abusive
 

continuing…

strangely, the majority of people at that time didn’t consider the rulers in the subcontinent, regradless of creed, as invaders. The same can’t be said of the british occupiers.. seems some people (read hindu ultra-nationalists) are trying to re-write history to suit current geo-political goals…

Posted by same..old.. | Report as abusive
 

same..old..says….–strangely, the majority of people at that time didn’t consider the rulers in the subcontinent, regradless of creed, as invaders. The same can’t be said of the british occupiers.. seems some people (read hindu ultra-nationalists) are trying to re-write history to suit current geo-political goals…

my friend i have given a referance over there .go ahead and read the book sea of poppies by amitav gosh…britishers were just imperialits…

their policy of divide and rule…divided india on religious lines..the partition of 1947 was a complete blunder by radcliffe..a divide was ovious but the way a british lawyer who never lived in india and scrablled some lines on the map of india without having any idea of ground realities was ironical…
kashmir is a problem because of british !! it seems u are brainwashed by ur own silly british pride..

Posted by Raging bull | Report as abusive
 

@We have an economic crisis HERE that needs our money and people HERE repairing the damage that the Corporate Capitalist Empire of the elite rich committed already!
- Posted by Kiki

Dear Kiki:
Make a habit to protest en masse. Blogging alone does not help. In Europe and Asia, people protest to pressurize their govts. Do ur own share.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

same..old..
“strangely, the majority of people at that time didn’t consider the rulers in the subcontinent, regradless of creed, as invaders.”

—Some crap, haven’t heard of the term ‘Mughals’ it seems…

“seems some people (read hindu ultra-nationalists) are trying to re-write history to suit current geo-political goals…”

—Yeah, so according to you Aurangzeb should be considered as the most just ruler of India…

Posted by anup | Report as abusive
 

anup aurangzeb was a bad ruler.. for eg pervez musharraf or george bush..he considered india to be his country..

whereas british were imperialists..they came to india to exploit and make money..plundered india and later had to leave..

mugals were one of the best too…like Akbar,jehangeer and shah jahan isn’t it.

check the following link..http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/s outh_asia/7460682.stm

Posted by Raging bull | Report as abusive
 

Raging Bull: “kashmir is a problem because of british !! it seems u are brainwashed by ur own silly british pride..”

My reference to the British was both past and present.

I also disagree that the Kashmir problem is primariy due to the British, I would say it’s mostly due to the greed and corruption of Indians and to a lesser degree the Pakistanis.

The indians (mostly Hindus) are to blame because they were largely willing to accept the British as their new masters and the pakistani’s (Muslims) as they were unable to excercise the amount of control needed to keep the subcontinent strong and united.

It’s no surprise that the Pakistani’s were left in the weaker position as otherwise there was a strong possibility of the subcontinent returning to the pre colonial status, something the British could ill afford. The situation in Kashmir was inevitable and a throwback of allowing ‘any’ invaders to have taken control.

You can’t keep blaming all your problems on others when in reality anyone could have taken advantage of the animosity and disunity between the people of the subcontinent. The british simply took advantage of the situtaion and were even largely aided by the locals.

Parallels can be drawn to the current situation in the subcontinent and central asia, and if the talbian were to be defeated in Afghanistan, there will likely be a new ‘Kashmir’.

Posted by same..old.. | Report as abusive
 

“—Some crap, haven’t heard of the term ‘Mughals’ it seems…”

Seems the Mughals were muslims..

“—Yeah, so according to you Aurangzeb should be considered as the most just ruler of India…”

Just or not, the people of the subcontinent did believe the mughals to be the rightfull rulers .. otherwise the hindus involved in the 1857 rebelion wouldn’t have accepted Bahadur Shah II as the ruler.

Quoted from wikipedia:

“There are roads bearing his name in New Delhi, Lahore, Varanasi and other cities. A statue of Bahadur Shah Zafar has been erected at Vijayanagaram palace in Varanasi.”

Posted by same..old.. | Report as abusive
 

same..old..
@”Quoted from wikipedia:

“There are roads bearing his name in New Delhi, Lahore, Varanasi and other cities. A statue of Bahadur Shah Zafar has been erected at Vijayanagaram palace in Varanasi.”

– Zafar was secular and those statue was to honor that trait. And dont go by the name of the roads. There is a road in Delhi called Aurangzeb road,

@”I also disagree that the Kashmir problem is primariy due to the British, I would say it’s mostly due to the greed and corruption of Indians and to a lesser degree the Pakistanis.”

– Oh yeah! Pakistan sent her regular amry under and kabaylis to Kashmir to capture Kashmir by force. This forced Maharajah of Kashmir to sign treat of annexation to India. Rest is history.

@”The indians (mostly Hindus) are to blame because they were largely willing to accept the British as their new masters and the pakistani’s (Muslims) as they were unable to excercise the amount of control needed to keep the subcontinent strong and united. ”

– Read your history carefully or if you are a pakistani your are excused. When British came Mugal rule was at its death bed. In South marathas were rising and in north Sikhs. Between, i see that you tring to peddle ususal pakistani propoganda that hindus should be subject and muslims should be ruler of india garbage.

@”It’s no surprise that the Pakistani’s were left in the weaker position as otherwise there was a strong possibility of the subcontinent returning to the pre colonial status, something the British could ill afford. The situation in Kashmir was inevitable and a throwback of allowing ‘any’ invaders to have taken control.”

– Pakistan is weak because of its ideaology of hate. but you can not do anything about it. Hate is the founding stone of Pakistan.

@”You can’t keep blaming all your problems on others when in reality anyone could have taken advantage of the animosity and disunity between the people of the subcontinent. The british simply took advantage of the situtaion and were even largely aided by the locals.”

– Yes that is correct. Had india stand united no invasions would have been possible. No Alexander, No Gazni and no British.

@”Parallels can be drawn to the current situation in the subcontinent and central asia, and if the talbian were to be defeated in Afghanistan, there will likely be a new ‘Kashmir’.”

– Au Contraire Taliban has to be defeated to prevent future Kashmir/Pakistan where minorities are annilated.

Posted by chirkut | Report as abusive
 

same…old…
@”Just or not, the people of the subcontinent did believe the mughals to be the rightfull rulers .. otherwise the hindus involved in the 1857 rebelion wouldn’t have accepted Bahadur Shah II as the ruler.”

- Over generalization! Bahadur shah zafar was declared “leader” of the rebellion not the “right ful ruler”.That rebellion had many Rajahs and nawabs fighting for independence of their own territory. Ex Lucknow and Jhansi. One important reason for declaring Zafar as leader was because he was more of less Secular.

Posted by chirkut | Report as abusive
 

that’s right i think muslim rulers treated india as their own land akbar became one of the most secular kings but britishers were just imperialists..NOW U CANNOT DENY THAT FACT..

but if u are saying british rule helped india that’s not true.. and yes as far as our failures are concerned we can reach the same hieghts …

it may take another 20-30 years and within our life times u will see the differance..after all it takes some time to get over all plunder that british did in this subcontinent..

as far as pakistan is concerned …troubles like these makes a nation stronger..hope they come come out of it and become a stronger nation.. as far as britain is concerned ..its a nation of theives..

Posted by Raging bull | Report as abusive
 

Raging bull
-Akbar was an exemplary statesman & theirs no denying that one of the greatest rulers of India & possibly unparalleled globally during his time & even after- but a proper historical study untainted by the western historians & the illegitimate children of Maculay,will show that Jehangir & Shahjahan were biased rulers, but Aurangzeb was a fanatic, the support for the reinstatement of Bahadur Zafar shah had more to do with him being a fragile & impotent ruler, just a figurehead than anything else…

Posted by anup | Report as abusive
 

same..old..
“There are roads bearing his name in New Delhi, Lahore, Varanasi and other cities. A statue of Bahadur Shah Zafar has been erected at Vijayanagaram palace in Varanasi.”

—-So???Bahadur Shah Zafar was the emperor of India, who’s denying that? But the last ‘Mughal’ emperor of India.Dr. Abdul Kalam is a Indian President, therein lies the diff.
In India you’ll find a host of statues of the likes of marx & lenin also, viceroys & idiotic brit officers at some bazar chowks etc.etc.The largesse’s & evolved Indian minds is beyond your comprehension…

Posted by anup | Report as abusive
 

bulls eye …anup..! that the history well read..

i think if same old is some paki…that i would suggest him to go through history once aain because he must have read the propaganda version..

it s not his fault, they have been brainwashed to hate indians..

my friend go through neutral site and believe me you will be enlightened,,

Posted by Raging bull | Report as abusive
 

The indian mind is far from evolved.. they will take any one as their master.. of course depending on whom ever suits them at the time.. whether it be the Muslim ‘mughal’ master, the Russian ‘marxist’ master or the british ‘viceory’ master.

The statues are just a formailty to keep the new masters happy… I guess we can expect a statue of rupert murdoch to be erected some time soon.. you got to keep your new western media master happy after all.

Same old crap by the same old cronies who seem to live on these blogs..

Posted by Same... old... | Report as abusive
 

“- Zafar was secular and those statue was to honor that trait. And dont go by the name of the roads. There is a road in Delhi called Aurangzeb road”
-posted by chirkut

Please try to find a road in Berlin named “Adolf Hitler Street”, or something like that. Please let us know the results of your search. He was “more or less” secular too. And to most non-Jews in Central and Eastern Europe at the time, he was seen as the saviour of the poor.

Using history as a weapon is a dangerous game. Using 6000-7000 years as a weapon is nuclear warfare. Let it go. Help, and stop hurting, I AM BEGGING YOU!. Please don’t invite others to throw stones at your glass house. We all live in them, and it would be MUTUALLY ASSURED DESTRUCTION of what peace we do have. I love you.

Peace.

Posted by Patrick | Report as abusive
 

Patrick
“Please try to find a road in Berlin named “Adolf Hitler Street”, or something like that.”

—Even if there’s one named after him then what’s the harm? Can you deny the fact that he’s a historical figure, irrespective of your prejudices. Are there no road or any square named after Winston Churchill?
In London there’s a statue of General O’Dyer & that psychopath is considered as a British Hero.Aren’t the likes of George Armstrong Custer, who have massacred the native Americans National Hero’s? Suppressing history or obscuring historical facts IS the dangerous game.

Posted by anup | Report as abusive
 

Someone said “AURANGZEB considered india to be his country.”

About AURANGZEB if there is a softer word that is he was SOB; the most religiously intolerant and an inhuman–can be compared with Hitler. He murdered the ninth Sikh Guru Tegh Bahadur, whose son and 10th Guru Gobind Singh seeing so many atrocities turned Sikhism to take militant form for protection. Among the executed by Aurangzeb were sons of 10th Guru.

Read this quote for the treacherous and immoral standards of Aurangzeb.
“”In an attempt to dislodge the Sikhs, Aurangzeb vowed that the Guru and his Sikhs would be allowed to leave Anandpur safely. But when the Sikhs abandoned the fort, the Mughals enagaged them in battle once again, at Chamkaur. Gobind Singh’s very small force — usually described as 40 men — fended off the larger and better-equipped forces for some time, but eventually most fell. Only Gobind Singh and a few of his aides escaped. In response Gobind Singh sent Aurangzeb an eloquent yet defiant letter entitled the Zafarnamah (Letter of Victory), accusing the emperor of treachery and claiming a moral victory.” Not everything goes in love and war.
AURANGZEB executed his brother Dara Shikok in delhi and sent his severed head to Shah Jahan-who was kept under house arrest.

Here is the pashtun connection: In 1672, the Pashtuns revolted against aurangazeb. Why? One Mughal Governor of AURANGZEB attempted to molest women of the Safi tribe. The revolt continues.

But one credit to him—he memorized the whole Quran. Was he practicing is the only question. if not was he not a Muslim.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

In answer to anup, who wrote:

“Even if there’s one named after him then what’s the harm?”
- I don’t believe there is any harm. That IS my point. The harm comes from historical “facts”, and how a sense of being wronged will lead to anger and hate.

In London there’s a statue of General O’Dyer & that psychopath is considered as a British Hero.Aren’t the likes of George Armstrong Custer, who have massacred the native Americans National Hero’s?
- I asked for no more stones. You threw them directly at my house, using absolutes as weapons. Now I am homeless. Feel better?

HISTORICAL FACT: India is a liar who cannot be trusted with power.

I love you.
Peace.

Posted by Patrick | Report as abusive
 

HISTORICAL FACT: India is a liar who cannot be trusted with power.

Anup, thats not me.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Umair,
Please re-read the posts between anup and I. I think you missed the point that I think the word “facts” is a silly notion. I am merely debating with anup on the concept of “point of view”. Perhaps I should have preceded the remark with something like “Please debate this(without pointing the finger at someone else):”. Pointed fingers are just fists with a directional guidance system. And just like warfare, the other side responds by pointing there own “finger”, with the reason being a “deterrent” against any aggressive “fists”. Please help your countrymen right now with healing, not hatred. Umair, I love you very much and one day would like to sit and talk with you. You can teach me about cricket. I don’t know much about it, but I love to talk “sports”. If you like, I could teach you about American football, and the inherit dangers of running the 3-4 defense in passing situations. We don’t always have to “win” by fighting. Right now the situation in the military theatre of this war is “faulty intelligence”. They probably were just not listening hard enough.

I love you.
Peace.

Posted by Patrick | Report as abusive
 

Patrick
“HISTORICAL FACT: India is a liar who cannot be trusted with power.”
—Duh! What ‘historical’ sense does that make???? The only tangible result was that – Umair (remember Miandad) is jumpin like a monkey.
—Even if I in a rare moment of generosity, entertain your unintelligible statement- then also, Power is earned on merits & not received as alms (as in the case of Pakistan, what could the US of A do, when we ripped apart Pakistan in 1971, we didn’t have nukes in those days, whereas the US sent it’s 7th Fleet into the Bay of Bengal and within minutes of hitting Indian cities with nuclear missiles, in a clear signal of the US’s support to Pakistan. That didn’t deter us so will these Paki nukes, lol)

“I think you missed the point that I think the word “facts” is a silly notion. I am merely debating with anup on the concept of “point of view”.

—The very fact of denying history as it transpired / manifested / with tangible results & beat round the bush with a imaginary ‘point of view’ as suitable to the concerned entity is mere strategic propaganda. ( read what Myra has given links to & quoted Winston Churchill on this blog).

Posted by anup | Report as abusive
 

same..old..
—once again “The largesse’s & evolved Indian minds is beyond your comprehension…”

However hard the Brits try to hide their dirty linen, their tyrannical rule of the sub-continent, their own conscience will repeatedly bite them until they give up their claims of ‘high moral grounds’ & sincerely accept that at the end of the day – all they were,nothing but intruding plunderers.

Posted by anup | Report as abusive
 

“HISTORICAL FACT: India is a liar who cannot be trusted with power.” so these are the facts that pakis have been reading in pakistani history books.. no doubt they sound so unreasonable and dumb..

pak’s former PM benazir confessing that they were taught the west pakistanis are tall have fair complextion and eat wheat and east pakistanis are short ,dark and mainly eat rice..this was when bangladesh was a part of pakistan. punjabi superiority complex..

they also have HISTORICAL FACTs like pakistan was not made out of india but india was made out of pakistan..and our harappa civilization is better than india’s..makes no sense..

these facts are so dumb that u cannot stop laughing.

no doubt pakistan is such a failure today as they have not learnt anything from history..as they have been taught propaganda..instead of realising the mistakes they have repeated it..

Posted by Raging bull | Report as abusive
 

Patrick wrote:
” Umair, I love you very much and one day would like to sit and talk with you. You can teach me about cricket. I don’t know much about it, but I love to talk “sports”. If you like, I could teach you about American football, and the inherit dangers of running the 3-4 defense in passing situations. We don’t always have to “win” by fighting. Right now the situation in the military theatre of this war is “faulty intelligence”. They probably were just not listening hard enough.”

hmm, thats good. Cricket is a simple english game but it is nice I like it. A cricket game lasts an entire day, it gives lot of time for strategic planning, but it is unpredictable and can change suddenly from one opponents favour to another. Pakistan was world champion in the early 90s in cricket, mens hockey, Squash and snooker, we are sports loving people and have lot of talent.

And yes, i would like to learn much about American football, I have always been curious about it and would love if you teach me a thing or two.
I agree in sports we can learn much about military planning.

Talk to you soon!

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Anup wrote:
“— Power is earned on merits & not received as alms (as in the case of Pakistan, what could the US of A do, when we ripped apart Pakistan in 1971, we didn’t have nukes in those days, whereas the US sent it’s 7th Fleet into the Bay of Bengal and within minutes of hitting Indian cities with nuclear missiles, in a clear signal of the US’s support to Pakistan. That didn’t deter us so will these Paki nukes, lol)”

Pakistan earned every single nut and bolt and put it together to make a nuclear bomb and detonated it ripping apart the rugged mountain ranges of Baluchistan province in 1998.
Just imagine how powerful Pakistan is, defeated, dismembered and demoralized in 1971, fight backs and registers itself on world map as the worlds first ever muslim nuclear power after 27 years. You will never find lack of resolve on our part.

Anup, we dont need US Naval fleet umbrella anymore, make no mistake, Pakistani nukes are a case of use it or loose it. If you think you can attack Pakistan, just remember there will be no hesitation on our part to unleash catastrophic forces of destruction on YOU.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

The clown writes: “Pakistan earned every single nut and bolt and put it together to make a nuclear bomb and detonated it ripping apart the rugged mountain ranges of Baluchistan province in 1998.”

It is a well known fact that AQ Khan stole the centrifuge system from Holland where he worked in the nuclear labs. In 1974 when India exploded the nuclear bomb, he volunteered to help Bhutto make Pakistan a nuclear power. He stole all the blue prints and quietly moved back to Pakistan. So there is nothing that Pakistan developed from scratch. I am sure the Americans and their cold war allies knew this well and turned a blind eye to it then, because India was an ally of the Soviets. So they must have allowed Pakistan to neutralize India’s nuclear capability. Without connivance, none of these would have happened. Look at how they prevented Iraq from developing the nukes. They could have done the same to Pakistan too. The only difference was that Pakistan was an ally of the US. A lot of wrongs were ignored if the US was in your favor.

And if there are nukes, it doesn’t affect the US in any way. Only India has to worry and none of these powers care if India exists. So your nuclear achievement is based on the criminal act of stealing. Go ahead and pride yourself with it. Your nukes are being looked at with interest only from the point of view that they may fall into the hands of the terrorists. I sincerely hope it does not happen.

 

Is there anyone from Afghanistan here? If so, please give us your take on the regional situation. Thanks in advance.

I love you.
Peace.

Posted by Patrick | Report as abusive
 

Mauryan
A.Q Khan worked in a Dutch firm named Urenco in Almelo, Netherlands. Pakistan had to literally disguise and create forward companies to acquire components from every corner of the world, Canada to Germany to advance the nuclear program. Started by Zulfiqar Bhutto, further Zia Ul Haq, Benazir Bhutto and Nawaz Sharif pressed the trigger in 1998. If one thing Pakistani leaders were consistent over the decades was a ruthless pursuit of nuclear weapons knowing how important it is for Pakistan.

Now, Israeli MOSSAD ordered nuclear material in 1976 through a fictitious company, shipped in disguise in a vessel off the coast of Italy and in the open sea under the darkness the material was offloaded to another vessel and shipped to Israel abandoning the original carrier of the material. The whole affair was uncovered years later.

Dont accuse Pakistan of nuclear proliferation and stealing. Round the clock for years scientists put in brain power to make the technology work, from enrichment of uranium to creating the centrifuges, testing etc Pakistan nuclear program is the work of deticated scientists and you cant discredit them.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Umair
Pakistan’s nuclear program is a history of most shameful nuclear proliferation. I posted you two links before in another blog and i am doing it again.

http://cns.miis.edu/research/india/china  /npakpos.htm
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/pakistan/n uke/

“In the past, China played a major role in the development of Pakistan’s nuclear infrastructure, especially when increasingly stringent export controls in western countries made it difficult for Pakistan to acquire materials and technology elsewhere. According to a 2001 Department of Defense report, China has supplied Pakistan with nuclear materials and expertise and has provided critical assistance in the construction of Pakistan’s nuclear facilities.

In the 1990s, China designed and supplied the heavy water Khusab reactor, which plays a key role in Pakistan’s production of plutonium. A subsidiary of the China National Nuclear Corporation also contributed to Pakistan’s efforts to expand its uranium enrichment capabilities by providing 5,000 custom made ring magnets, which are a key component of the bearings that facilitate the high-speed rotation of centrifuges.

According to Anthony Cordesman of CSIS, China is also reported to have provided Pakistan with the design of one of its warheads, which is relatively sophisticated in design and lighter than U.S. and Soviet designed first generation warheads.

China also provided technical and material support in the completion of the Chasma nuclear power reactor and plutonium reprocessing facility, which was built in the mid 1990s. The project had been initiated as a cooperative program with France, but Pakistan’s failure to sign the NPT and unwillingness to accept IAEA safeguards on its entire nuclear program caused France to terminate assistance.

According to the Defense Department report cited above, Pakistan has also acquired nuclear related and dual-use and equipment and materials from the Former Soviet Union and Western Europe.”

All in all almost everything in PAKs N-weapon had “Made in China” Stamp.

Posted by chirkut | Report as abusive
 

Umair the faithful writes: “Pakistan nuclear program is the work of deticated scientists and you cant discredit them.”

I refer you to a book named, “Front Line Pakistan,” written by a PAKISTANI journalist, Zahid Hussein. There he clearly narrates the development of the Islamic bomb. He describes vividly about AQ Khan’s stealthy activities in the Holland labs and how he managed to bring the technology to Pakistan.

I’d put my trust on his words than yours. He was very honest in mentioning a number of things that you accuse us Indians of. Truth if very different from what you believe.

Whatever it is, Pakistan now has the nukes. Guns, whether they are bought legally or stolen, are lethal. If it is in the hands of a policeman, people feel secure. If it falls into the hands of a known criminal, it causes worries. Pakistan with nukes makes the world feel the latter way unfortunately.

Go to the following link and see what the view of Pakistan is. The article is 9 pages long and clearly tells why the rest of the world is worried about Pakistan. By the way, New York is not in India.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/05/magazi ne/05zardari-t.html?ref=world

 

What does this post have to do with Pakistani nuke program ?! Indian posters are requested to keep their comment within the scope of the topic.

Judging by Obama’s comments, one would think that Afghanistan is a small, sparesely populated province of Pakistan, instead of being a full-fledged country.

Obama’s plan ignores the Durand Line dispute as well as Pakistani suffering from the smuggling of drugs, contraband and militants from across the border. I don’t see it succeeding when the it relies on bullying and bribing Pakistan.

 

Patrick the love bird writes: “Umair, I love you very much and one day would like to sit and talk with you.”

Please keep these private things confined from the public. Such things in the open are taboo in the sub-continent. And if the Taliban saw this, Umair might get flogged for not wearing the burqa completely :-)

 

Aamir Ali the three legged assassin writes: “one would think that Afghanistan is a small, sparesely populated province of Pakistan, instead of being a full-fledged country.”

Was it not the plan of your leaders when they created the Taliban and sent them to take over Afghanistan? A Taliban ruled Afghanistan was going to be run remotely by Pakistan’s ISI to give them the needed “Strategic depth” against the evil Indians. Your leaders were manipulating Afghanistan by using the Taliban. So in effect, Afghanistan looked like a province of Pakistan. Be happy that the B52s did not see your country combined with Afghanistan. Otherwise, by now FATA would have been a flat land fit to play cricket.

But hang in there. Don’t feel left out. Obama will fulfill your wish. All you Islamic brothers in this wretched region can go to paradise together and create a havoc there.

 

Umair seems to toss around that word nuclear very casually. Do you not realize that as soon as Pakistan uses the first nuke, Pakistan will be decimated?!?! If Pakistan were to exercise using a nuke either against the U.S. or India, it would be vaporized, just a black scratch on the earth, Terrorism, the ISI, the Pak military and NWFP and SWAT, all these areas would not be a problem to the U.S., India and the world anymore.

So, UMAIR, please limit your use of the word, in the same breath, you are actually acknowledging the thinly veiled acknowledgement of the wholesale reciprocal destruction of Pakistan. Use your sensibility, when you use the word “Nuke”, from now on, just recognize that a nuke launched, will bring critical mass upon Pakistan.

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@Mauryan

The Taliban have been gone since 2001, and even in the Taliban period of 1998-2001, Afghanistan was recognized and dealt with as a separate country.

Hence the current Obama strategy of focusing totally on Pakistan while essentially ignoring Afghanistan is flawed.

@Global Watcher

Just keep in mind that Pakistani nukes and missiles are there to keep Indians in check. That was successfully demonstrated during 2002.

 

Don’t accuse Pakistan of nuclear proliferation and stealing. Round the clock for years scientists put in brain power to make the technology work, from enrichment of uranium to creating the centrifuges, testing etc Pakistan nuclear program is the work of deticated scientists and you cant discredit them.”
- Posted by Umair

–Umair: you are completely mistaken. There is a difference of day and night bewteen a scientist and a technician. Yes you can call them dedicated technicians because of ruthless Pakistani Army/ISI on their back. Yiur stuff was nearly completely bought from China and whose money US’s. It was proliferated clandestinely by Pakistan to Iran Iraq Libya, the countries included in the US’s “axis of evil”. This was sold for hard cash like toy guns are sold. I thought religion teaches morality ethics and is that what has been learnt by Pakistan? A true responsible scientist will make sure the means of acquiring Nukes and a responsible state will make sure it does no go to countries which you do not control.

US and Pakistani bloggers: In addition to Chirkut’s links, have a look at this book too “Deception: Pakistan, the United States, and the Secret Trade in Nuclear Weapons.” I browsed not read yet–it is a big book. Click for audio interview on NPR. This also addresses the role of US in this.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story .php?storyId=16251052

Anotherlink:
http://www.countercurrents.org/us-leopol d110805.htm

“The Bush administration had mountains of evidence on Pakistan’s sales of nuclear technology and equipment to nations vilified by the United States — nations that are considered much more of a threat than Iraq — but turned a blind eye to the threat and allowed it to happen.” China did the same way–they helped Pakistan and then looked away.

India since 1972 is nuclear state and is completely clean on this–because there is no 2nd option for any nuclear nation. That’s safe for self and the neighbourhood. Gadaffi made an offer to India about this and of course was rejected. Sadly we missed the chance to neutralize Pakistan’s facility-we had it.

This nuclear proliferation by Pakistan to countries has underlined the non-seriousness of Pakistan as a nation. All these cries by Pakstanis that people expect so much from Pakistan is becuase the trust is gone. There are rules to a game–howsoever dirty one wants to play.

Americans must know that Nukes in Pakistan’s hands happened with US knowing it–when they could have stopped this, but conveniently ignored. Nuclear prolifeartion happened while China conveniently looked away. By US’s definition of dangerous nations (Iran and N Korea, #1 in the list should be Pakistan and there should be such a diplomatic and non-military effort at global level with China’s help perhaps that Pakistan should be denuclearlized. Otherwise wait for more proliferation. Terrorists are potential big buyers now. Guys playtime is over.

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Don’t accuse Pakistan of nuclear proliferation and stealing. Round the clock for years scientists put in brain power to make the technology work, from enrichment of uranium to creating the centrifuges, testing etc Pakistan nuclear program is the work of deticated scientists and you cant discredit them.”
- Posted by Umair

–Umair: you are completely mistaken. There is a difference of day and night bewteen a scientist and a technician. Yes you can call them dedicated technicians because of ruthless Pakistani Army/ISI on their back. Yiur stuff was nearly completely bought from China and whose money US’s. It was proliferated clandestinely by Pakistan to Iran Iraq Libya, the countries included in the US’s “axis of evil”. This was sold for hard cash like toy guns are sold. I thought religion teaches morality ethics and is that what has been learnt by Pakistan? A true responsible scientist will make sure the means of acquiring Nukes and a responsible state will make sure it does no go to countries which you do not control.

US and Pakistani bloggers: In addition to Chirkut’s links, have a look at this book too “Deception: Pakistan, the United States, and the Secret Trade in Nuclear Weapons.” I browsed not read yet–it is a big book. Click for audio interview on NPR. This also addresses the role of US in this.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story .php?storyId=16251052

“The Bush administration had mountains of evidence on Pakistan’s sales of nuclear technology and equipment to nations vilified by the United States — nations that are considered much more of a threat than Iraq — but turned a blind eye to the threat and allowed it to happen.” China did the same way–they helped Pakistan and then looked away.

India since 1972 is nuclear state and is completely clean on this–because there is no 2nd option for any nuclear nation. That’s safe for self and the neighbourhood. Gadaffi made an offer to India about this and of course was rejected. Sadly we missed the chance to neutralize Pakistan’s facility-we had it.

This nuclear proliferation by Pakistan to countries has underlined the non-seriousness of Pakistan as a nation. All these cries by Pakstanis that people expect so much from Pakistan is becuase the trust is gone. There are rules to a game–howsoever dirty one wants to play.

Americans must know that Nukes in Pakistan’s hands happened with US knowing it–when they could have stopped this, but conveniently ignored. Nuclear prolifeartion happened while China conveniently looked away. By US’s definition of dangerous nations (Iran and N Korea, #1 in the list should be Pakistan and there should be such a diplomatic and non-military effort at global level with China’s help perhaps that Pakistan should be denuclearized. Otherwise wait for more proliferation. Terrorists are potential big buyers now. Guys playtime is over.

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Aamir the asinine Ali writes: “the current Obama strategy of focusing totally on Pakistan while essentially ignoring Afghanistan is flawed.”

No. That is the right thing to do – Focus on the problem instead of beating around the bush like Cheney did. The problem has always been Pakistan. Do you think they are fools? They know that if Pakistan is not cut to size, a stable Afghanistan will never form. So Obama clearly knows what the priorities are. Unfortunately, your country is trouble for the world. And they have begun to say it openly. Start wearing the burqa now itself. Very soon Taliban will demand it.

 

Umair the Taliban clown writes: “Don’t accuse Pakistan of nuclear proliferation and stealing. Round the clock for years scientists put in brain power to make the technology work”

Your statement confirms the fact that Pakistan got the atom bomb the wrong way. You have said here that “brain power” was used. Now that’s questionable isn’t it? What are you going to call the new North Korean missile? Yahya Khan?

 

Mauryan wrote:
“Your statement confirms the fact that Pakistan got the atom bomb the wrong way.”

There is no right or wrong way to get an atom bomb, there is just a way to get it. Either you get the way right or you get the way wrong, it doesnt matter. All that matters is you get the atom bomb. Thats what Pakistan did, getting the bomb the wrong way doesnt mean it doesnt work, it is a good bomb and was tested in 1998 I am sure it will do a nice job if required to be detonated again. I hope you dont get confused you brain dead scum.

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Umair et al and Indian Bloggers:

The Nuke talk and other ammunition talk is getting little hilarious. Same joke told each day for months will not work. I am sure most bloggers are not even reading such messages since the content is expected and is mostly copy/paste. The professionals on either side on know the real deal and they know the situation and know when to do what, which missile be used than us bloggers do. So it is a futile exercise to talk about it. If it is relevant that will make sense.

Umair et al., you are spoiling your country’s image and worse adding to other peoples already existing notions about Pakistan being a terrorist-friendly trigger-happy country.

@All that matters is you get the atom bomb. Thats what Pakistan did, getting the bomb the …”
-by Umair

–OK, I heard you on acquring the Islamic bomb from China. what are your thoughts about selling the stuff to Iran Iraq Libya N Korea? Do you approve it? or say that this is an immoral act and unsafe and irresponsible above all. be honsest to yourself. Now think this when you say that pakistan is peaceful–does it tie any way with the given history of pakistan.
Can you post a link what happens when the bomb is detonated–dirty bomb or on the nuclear war head? I am sure with this much knowledge on the subject you would know those URLs to take care of your citizens if it happens.

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Rajeev
Listen look you are a decent.Scroll down and see who started this nuclear crap, I only reply to anyone who tries to state some non-sense.

Look, Rajeev I know you are a very ethical guy and very upset about Pakistan’s nuclear & missile capability. And also you are upset Pakistan proliferating it.

Tell you what MOSSAD shipped nuclear material off the Italian coast, intercepted the vessel in open sea, offloaded the material to another vessel and abondened the original one and finally shipped it to Israel. Now may I ask you to pleae condemn Israeli actiuons, how did Israel acquire nuclear capability, through US. Now India has diplomatic relations with both countries.

So, in other words, If Israel and US share nuclear technology thats good. When Pakistan swap centrifuges with missiles with North Korea that becomes bad.

American satellites intercepted Pakistani C-130s offloading centrifuges in North Korea and loading missiles in return. I feel knowledge is power and ignorance is bad, sharing of technological knowledge is benificial for every one. Pakistan has all the right to share our expertise in nuclear technology with other nations. Why should a few countries have a monopoly.

And Rajeev, I am thankful to India here, it was India because of which Pakistan went nuclear. The world owes it to you guys. Had you not detonated nukes back in 1974 under disguise of smiling Bhudda Zulfiqar Bhutto would never have said we would eat grass but build the bomb. Now you are trying to lecture me on nuclear proliferation, this is dangeous game. Nuclear weapons are not toys.

Let India and Pakistan both denuclearize, sign a treaty shut open their nuclear sites and let the IAEA inspectors confiscate all the war heads. Lets live like good neighbours, lets stop threatning each other with nuclear weapons. Lets sign the CTBT and NPT.

Pakistan being signatory to CTBT(Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty) and NPT(Nuclear non-proliferation treaty) is obliged not to share knowledge with others. Though we are not signatory yet, I can tell you we still didnt share with Iran and they dont have a clue how to enrich the uranium. The moemnt Iranians enrich uranium, i bet te would go nuke.

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Umair the liar writes: “Look, Rajeev I know you are a very ethical guy”

This is called the wedging technique. You suddenly reach out to one of the people on the opposition side and give them credit suddenly. It causes confusion. The US is doing the same with “moderate Taliban.” Rajeev will probably print this and frame it.

The liar demands further in a tone that oozes reasonable words: “Pakistan has all the right to share our expertise in nuclear technology with other nations. Why should a few countries have a monopoly.”

Nuclear bombs are mass killers. They can wipe out civilizations and not a blade of grass can grow for decades. That is why the world has been extra careful in preventing its proliferation. This is no steam engine making technology that every country has the right to share with others. This is something one should feel responsible in order to possess. Those who possess guns should not give it to others who are criminals. And North Korea, Libya etc are model nations right? Please stop window washing, Mr. Liar. Your name itself rhymes with “liar”

Then he throws in a few words of wisdom: “Let India and Pakistan both denuclearize, sign a treaty shut open their nuclear sites and let the IAEA inspectors confiscate all the war heads. Lets live like good neighbours, lets stop threatning each other with nuclear weapons. Lets sign the CTBT and NPT.”

This will turn Gandhi in his grave. Of course de-nuclearization is a great thing to do. I am all for it. In fact Obama has initiated it already globally. Read the following link:

http://uk.reuters.com/article/reutersCom Service_2_MOLT/idUKTRE5323WO20090403

But Pakistan will not be able to pursue its dirty tricks on India once the world gets rid off all nukes. May be it is good for the region. It is the nukes that is giving so much boldness to the frenzied mullahs in your country, including immature people like you.

 

Mauryan

You are a newbie here bro, I have been around this blog since last year. Rajeev hails from Narowal, Pakistan(his grandparents were from Narowal) and I have been to Narowal, its close to the Indian border. when I write to him if i agree on anything, I reply by begining “with due respect”. I feel Rajeev is fairly decent.

you calling me aliar, its about time you watch your language ok.

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Umair writes: “You are a newbie here bro, I have been around this blog since last year. Rajeev hails from Narowal, Pakistan(his grandparents were from Narowal) and I have been to Narowal, its close to the Indian border. when I write to him if i agree on anything, I reply by begining “with due respect”. I feel Rajeev is fairly decent.

you calling me aliar, its about time you watch your language ok.”

I might be a newbie here. But I am veteran at arguing with different people on various issues. I have been dealing with people of your nature for more than 20 years from the newsgroup days. This is not new to me.

I have argued with LTTE sympathizers, Khalistan supporters, Xenophobic people in the US, Hindutva fanatics, Christian evangelists, Socialists, Atheists, Islamic fanatics, Sinhala chauvinists, Dravidian propagandists, Anti Hindi agitators and so on. I have learnt enough by dealing with these people. It has taught me on their general approach and strategy towards their stead fast beliefs and how they deal with others. My reaction towards them has been the same. My view is that the world will see fairness only if people fight for it in every possible way. If you want help in fighting the Taliban’s spread, do not hesitate to reach out to us. We will at least do what we can.

Phrases like “With due respect” etc sound like “Allaho Akbar” when slitting someone’s throat. Being respectful does not change the act.

 

I happened to go thro this blog, but find Mauryan’s too rude, less civil and basal. Is it really necessary?. I found the whole exchanges between just less than 10 persons. Surely debates can be at a better level of expressions. Would add to educated pride than creating revulsion, repulsion and bad taste.
Well, its your choice. I am not gonna be regular here.

 

Mauryan
Thank you, Pakistanis are capable of dealing with challenges, we will take care of millitants we dont need your help.

Mauryan, one question, since you have been arguing with millitant minded people, can I ask you when there was no internet, did you go out in jungle to meet LTTE gurellas? I mean it sounds funny, 20 years back if you wanted to talk to an IRA rebel or millitant you wanted an appointed with them.
Since time has changed, its good you are using safer internet technology to argue with people. cheers! keep smiling.

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@Let India and Pakistan both denuclearize, sign a treaty shut open their nuclear sites and let the IAEA inspectors confiscate all the war heads. Lets live like good neighbours, lets stop threatning each other with nuclear weapons. Lets sign the CTBT and NPT.
-posted by Umair

Umair: Quick response to this one: First thing always keep China in your mind when U talk about India/pak-Nuke.

It was India that first proposed an end to nuclear testing-the NPT idea of 1965. The idea is for universal and comprehensive non-proliferation not just for few. Look Umair, India has one bigger enemy (allow me to call so)–China. and you are proposing India and Pakistan-come on man it is blogging but let us consider the obvious.

Also, pakistan sold the stuff to so many countries and denuclearizing India is vulnerable to Pakistan (getting stuff from those countries and above all China). India is not running any Hinduism bomb business. let the whole world does it, India will do. India has been the original proposer of this NPT.

As the first nation to call for a CTBT, India supported the idea behind it, but not legitimizing the existing nuclear arsenals like in NPT.

India has proposed to Pakistan that an existing agreement not to bomb each other’s nuclear installations be extended to population centres and economic targets. At the same time, India has proposed to Pakistan that the two countries agree not to use or to be the first to use their nuclear capabilities against each other. Pakistan has not responded to either.

India and China have officially adopted no-first-use policies for their nuclear arsenals–use only as retaliation for an initial nuclear attack. But pakistan has not reciprocated.

You guys take small steps at bilateral level.

@it was India because of which Pakistan went nuclear. The world owes it to you guys.”
–You are friend of China who has these weapons and always ready to help against India–1962 war and 1965 were much before Pokhran. And India’s call for NPT in 1965 was much before Pokhran–no response from the world. With wars imposed on India, you think India is stupid not to have Nuke–but responsible for sure and always.

@Now may I ask you to pleae condemn Israeli actiuons, how did Israel acquire nuclear capability, through US. Now India has diplomatic relations with both countries.

–The idea of pak acquring was just to tell you that What pakistan did was buying not some research. Well if you did, you did. But proliferation is realy wild–what’s the good reason–you know it was all for money-small amount of money. you said “Pakistan has all the right to share our expertise in nuclear technology with other nations.” rights go with responsibility. In a different geographical location, Pakistan would have been attacked by US.

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@Rajeev hails from Narowal, Pakistan(his grandparents were from Narowal) and I have been to Narowal, its close to the Indian border. when I write to him if i agree on anything, I reply by begining “with due respect”. I feel Rajeev is fairly decent.”
- Posted by Umair

-WE still belong to 2 different countries and Narowal gives me as much advantage from you as Kasoor gives to Punjabiyaar or Lahore to Global Watcher. But thanks any way for now. I leave you and Mauryan for the internet dual-better than Nuke attack any day :-)

So the topic is “Obama takes Afghan war to Pakistan”.

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Umair asks: “Can I ask you when there was no internet, did you go out in jungle to meet LTTE gurellas? I mean it sounds funny, 20 years back if you wanted to talk to an IRA rebel or millitant you wanted an appointed with them.”

I lived in the southern most state in India in the 1980s. My father retired there after his military service. In 1983, the Sri Lankan Tamil ethnic conflict erupted. We used to have Tamil students from Sri Lanka study in our engineering college. Four of them went home for vacation in 1983 and three of them never returned. I met the last one in Toronto many years later. Refugees poured into that state at that time and there were many camps for them. I have dealt with these people before.

Twenty years ago was 1989. We had unix based internet in those days – UUCP, newsgroups (soc.culture.indian etc) before the web browsers came on board. And I have spent a lot of time on these news groups during my grad student days and the internet made the world much smaller. I have read through iranian, turkish, israeli newsgroups in those days and they had their own conflicts and the arguments looked exactly like ours.

It is always safer to fight lunatics over the internet. In close quarters they can lose their minds and attack someone.

 

Mauryan
I must respect you for one, you are way elder than me. I was still an infant in 1983. Yes, the 80s were turbulent for India, the assassination of Rajeev Gandhi, the Tamil conflict, the Punjab insurgency. That time Pakistan under Zia was a totally military state. India is much better off now and we wish you good for your future generation. We Pakistanis need to sincerely build ourselves.
Anyways, as I told you earlier I am here on this blog for quite some time now, I feel you should of making some positive contribution. Unlike a few Indian friends whom I will not name, you are not always bashing Pakistan and repeating same old arguments again and again. Sometimes even I am also doing that, but I am trying not to repeat old arguments. There is no denying that there is a problem across the Pak-Afghan border and it needs to calm down. Lets positively contribute and share our ideas. I think this is the purpose of blogs. Thanks

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Umair,

I am glad to have touched the human side in you. One of the things I am proud about in our cultures is respect for elder people. I am reading the works of Ahmed Rashid and I love his books. If the leaders did not mislead people for their selfish interests, the sub-continent could have accomplished so much! It is very frustrating to see the problems persisting over generations. I blame the British for screwing all of us for good. They left their lasting imprint by dividing up the people of the sub-continent. And it is even more frustrating to see that all of us are unable to come to terms and bury the monster that they have allowed to come out of the bottle. I agree with you that all of us should contribute positive things. That is why I do not want you to mistrust Indians. Most of us do not like violence and such means to manipulate people. We want to watch cricket, movies, shows and go on with our lives. When I am telling you and other Pakistanis not to put your faith on the ISI, I really mean it. It might have been created for the welfare of Pakistani interests. But it has turned into an organization with its own mind. I am not saying this. It is being realized by outsiders other than Indians. Ahmed Rashid, a well known Pakistani writer honestly lists all the issues in his book, “Descent into chaos.” He talks about a day long discussion with Hamid Karzai in Lahore when the Taliban was in power and about his fears on his life under threat from the Taliban and the ISI. There he mentions about the sinister development inside the ISI. Anti-India stance is not going to improve anything for Pakistan. All of us, including you and Musharraf know that now. But the ISI wants to keep that burning. That is why I have been trying to reach out to moderates inside Pakistan through forums like these to stand up and fight. You people need our help. And we are willing to help.

 

Here is another one that supports my point on defanging the ISI and changing perception about Indians.

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn -content-library/dawn/news/world/us-seek s-to-bring-about-political-reform-in-pak istan–bi

 

@Umair, Mauryan

Mauryan, thank you for being a sane voice of reason, rationality and logic.

Umair, as long as you quit hurling nuke and military bravado and blindly stated pro-islamic political promotion you will not get any so called bashing from me.

India has been peaceful and mature in its response and would actually like to progress economically.

There are some of those in Pakistan that would like to derail peace and derail India’s great economic success. That would be the ISI.

It is therefore important that all hateful statements against India be removed from all forms of literature from Pakistan. Peace starts with children from a very young age. Anti-hindu sentiment must stop. It is this negativity which Indians want to see stop for good.

There are many commonalities in the cultures of India and Pakistan and the U.S. and China has historically propped up Pakistan to keep India at bay.

India does not want to be seen as any threat to anybody and just wants its neighbours to be responsible.

There is no reason that India cannot do good things in Pakistan as it has done in Afghanistan. But first terrorism within Pakistan must be stopped by Pakistani’s and this must start with the ISI and Pak military, the purveyors of hate against India.

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http://www.ww4report.com/node/6943

A rather interesting analysis above raises the issue of the Bush Administration’s role in Central Asia. It was really a Bush Administration imperial crime on top of an imperial grab by the Clinton Administration. President Obama inherits a most shameful post Cold War Great Grab for oil and gas rich Central Asia. Our nation now is attempting to hold Afghanistan which is nothing but a cork to the Islamic spread throughout the South and Central Asian regions. Therein lays a severely sticky and high traction momentum for which Clinton and Bush must hold personal responsibility. The feebleness of Russia under Yeltsin permitted Western avarice to become paroxysmal. In particular, the American right-wing “wrecking crew” so well described in recent literature accelerated libertine expression of this corporate avarice to a point of utter recklessness.

Defensive reactions were inevitable. Firstly, alQaeda entered the negotiating realm with an Islamo-ideologic argument based on the role of Islamic religion to Soviet anti-ecclesiastic campaign. It can be factually argued that, not President Reagan, but the Muslims of the USSR defeated the Soviet Union. The CIA’s role was as a limitless supplier of arms and cash only. alQaeda had argued that the Islamic Revolution of Afghanistan must be advanced “Westward” as well as Southeastward into India. The Taliban bought into the transnational argument of binLaden. But we were fraudulently presented with the “westward” argument as defining attacking Europe and the US when in fact the target was Central and South Asia. At first, Saudi Arabia and Iran fully supported the anti-Soviet Afghan War. China– which has long been fighting the Uygur Muslim nationalists in Sinkiang Province, nevertheless, supported Muslim Pakistan as the bridgehead to dismembering of India, its main Asian enemy.

Since the 1980s we have witnessed a Sunni-Shia unity directed from Teheran that undermined the Egyptian and Saudi governments. These in turn supported Saddam Hussein as a transition to Islamism. Perceiving the Iranian Iean-to-Iraq collaboration to destroy the Western economic hold in the Middle East, the US worked a wedge war between Baghdad and Teheran. This drained American power out of South Asia (Afghanistan). The EU was well aware that the “western” target of the Muslims was limited to the ex-Soviet Republics of Central Asia and insisted on maintaining emphasis on diplomatic efforts in the Middle East on the promise of an Iraq-Iran switch from the perto$ to the Euro would enrich its European members. The Bush Administration, without any logical reason expected that as US troops are withdrawn from Afghanistan the European would be forced to fill the void. But just as they favored on-intervention in Iraq they felt no need to invade Afghanistan. Such expectation from NATO only exposes the utter illusion of dominion that the Bush Administration felt it had over Europe.

Bush Administration reckless bully diplomacy forced a Russo-Chinese collaboration, the Shanghai Accord, which on the surface pretends to be only a trade accord but is in fact a security pact created by Moscow in response to the Chinese panic over pre-9/11 US policy to surround China. Over the post 9/11 years, the Bush Administration was skillfully maneuvered, dissipating the credibility of its bully threats, so that now the Shanghai Accord extends to Central and Mainland Asia, including India, Pakistan, Iran and all the Central Asian states. Admittedly this construction is still amorphous and a work in progress suffering much internal contradictions. But it is a means to an end that is united on one point only: the US cannot be allowed to dominate Afghanistan. Despite their opposition to each other, the Shanghai Accord members have a common goal of keeping Afghanistan as a means of exasanguinating US power while never allowing a resolution by the US and US withdrawal. A sort of “1984″ Russo-Asian Bloc is standing against the even weaker western US-EU Bloc that seeks domination of Afghanistan to cut off Asian influence over Central Asia, leaving a weak Russia alone as an easy Western barrier to Western corporate domination of Central Asia. Alas, the Shanghai Accord surrounds Afghanistan, the EU sees no reason to lose more wealth and lives there and the US is exasanguinating hopelessly alone because it cannot afford to invest the massive effort required to dominate that vast mountainous nation. The crux of the matter is that America is finding itself abandoned by NATO and alone in Central-South Asia and can only stay there if manipulated to Shanghai Accord interests because the American economy is dependent on its Shanghai Accord bankers. The range of options permitted the US because of the internal contradictions of the Shanghai Accord does not range to include any prospect of successful elimination of the Taliban.

It has been propagandized by right-wing Republicans that if the US withdraws it will betray the women of Afghanistan. Videos of a 13 y/o girl whipped for taking to a boy is used to make the case. But if one were to consider the violation of women’s rights in India, Pakistan and China–America’s illusory allies and bankers– the entire case seems utterly hypocritical. It seems utterly irresponsible for the United States– much like the late Roman Empire– to waste its volunteer army under incompetent command in areas where victory is beyond their abilities and the investment of resources required far beyond what the American people are willing to invest. It is true that, in the absence of conscription, most Americans care so little for the lives of the heroic soldiers in the field that staying in the fight will be supported when contraposed with defeat– a position would never have been accepted had we drawn the troops through universal draft. But the material costs will soon sour the US public to this incredibly poorly fought war, almost as bad as the Soviet effort. By then, this grossly mishandled “Bush’s War” will have become “Obama’s War,” leaving him to bear responsibility for the withdrawal in defeat that is inevitable. It will be like blaming an operation botched by a lead surgeon on the one who sutures the wound because the patient died while the latter was closing.

Nevertheless, Americans traditionally avoid learning from the past. Too many defeats have been wiped from analytic memory in shame and a desire to maintain the illusion of military omnipotence. Like the Israeli army, the American military pretends that the incompetence of its command is not the issue and that the growing competence of its opponents can never match its own.

So what would happen if the US withdrew from Afghanistan?

First and foremost, let us recall that the real concern of Americans is that the Islamic struggle would then pour out of Afghanistan to flood Pakistan. In retort, let us recall that a) Pakistan’s original involvement with the Taliban is because of the latter’s strategic importance in its endless war with India. India is attempting an end-run around Pakistan by exploiting economic relations with non-Taliban Afghan tribes. That forces Pakistan to stand with the Taliban at cost of the Taliban having created a Pakistani Islamist Taliban to overthrow the secular Pakistani government and establish the first nuclear Sharia. India’s hope is that in this way it convinces the US/EU alliance to dismember Pakistan and return it to Indian rule, as it had been under British colonialism. Seeking depth, Pakistan cannot afford to succumb to Western demands that it be engulfed by India while Pakistan serves as the staging base for a Western defeat of Afghanistan’s Pashtuns. This Indian scheme, however, would never be allowed by China because Pakistan is the most critical ally of China in Asia and the sole barrier between Western China– where Muslim resistance is a problem– and India. Pakistan is also China’s Southern port outlet and inlet for its Mideast oil. And, Pakistan is the best means China has of putting pressure on India in the economic-strategic competition between the two states. b) The bonds of the Shanghai Accord constitute a complex balance between all its members. That is why there is little formal organizational rigidity in it except for economic processes; that is why it is misread as an economic accord. That strategic flexible balance becomes far more stressed and at the same time far more necessary to all its members if the US withdraws from Central Asia so that no one wins and no one loses. And, as the region ceases to be a war zone resisting Western imperialism, these internal contradictions become increasingly prominent, causing these nations to resort to complex diplomacy rather than combat. Also, many of these contradictions can only be ameliorated by economic ties to the West as none of the members can really dominate nor satisfy the needs of each member.

American presence in the area will only polarize the locals as more and more non-combatant “collateral damage” results from defensive American/NATO action. NATO can destroy itself, overcome by its inadequacy in Afghanistan, as opposed to its orderly operation as a European Defense Structure only. The Shanghai Accord needs only operate as an opportunity to Central/South Asian states seeking a bypass of American power, as the above article seems to imply.

Obama has very little time to bite the bullet. As the Iraq War ends muddled and unresolved, his presidency cannot afford Afghanistan also ending as HIS failure. His only hope is to transfer the whole problem to the Shanghai Accord where it will forever be entangled in the Accord’s fluidity where no one loses, no one wins. It has been mendaciously put forward by VP Cheney, Rumsfeld (though now he dares no longer speak as recklessly as before), Rove and several FOXNEWS Republican propagandists that if we withdraw from Afghanistan we will again face a repeat of 9/11. What they fail to truthfully admit is that post-9/11 Bush mendaciously covered for the airline companies that had violated laws established during the 1970s when the US faced multiple skyjackings. It was decreed at the time that all airlines would be provided a locked impenetrable pilot’s cabin and two sky marshals would be put on every plane. But because of cheap fares competition all the airlines violated this law. As a result, Jihadi shahids looking for a way to try again to destroy the World Trade Center and to do damage to Wash DC government buildings, while riding First Class cross country, discovered that the pilot’s cabin is never locked. Thus, on 9/11, four aircrafts were completely taken over within ten minutes each. Unless we repeat this gross negligence, such conversion of airlines into missiles will never again occur. To say, therefore, that 9/11 happened, because Afghanistan was a “rogue” state controlled by the Taliban, we suffered 9/11 is a gross lie. It happened because security LAWS WERE DISOBEYED. I can only conclude that utterly irresponsible political opportunists are making the current Republican case. For had Afghanistan been so important, Bush would have held to his refusal to cannibalize the Afghan War in order to present Congress with a fait accompli in Iraq, as proposed by Rumsfeld, wherein US troops in battle could not be refused funding.

Americans as a people cannot pretend that the past does not exist and that they, therefore, do not have to face its consequences. The US had its chance to deal with the Islamic Jihad and totally failed. This fact cannot be erased with mechanized killing of Muslims using remote controlled drones guided by platoons on the ground. This nation is exsanguinating its young men and resources, manipulated by nations that have no match in force but are endowed far greater ability in diplomacy and “stratergerizing.” Obama cannot be a repeat of corrupt Bush II. He must courageously face the amputation required to avoid the systemic infection that the Soviet Union faced after its defeated veterans returned from Afghanistan. Those returned PTSD victims, the maimed and the families of the dead are Bush’s victims. Soon they will be Obama’s. His only hope is to dare to do the right thing now and not wait for some miraculous “Dayton Accord” illusion.

Daniel E. Teodoru

Posted by de teodoru | Report as abusive
 

Wow. Reuters will not let me post a long comment. Anyhow, just go to the ‘About Us’ page for the site Daniel mentioned. Anarchists, editors for pot-smoking magazines, and radio pirates (whatever that means). A respectable line up of “journalists”…which happens to also have page called “Our Mission”. Hmmmmmmm……

Peace.

Posted by Patrick | Report as abusive
 

Obama takes war to Pakistan, haa, haa, very strange thought, after losing in every corner of the globe militarily and financially Americans still not learned any lesson. My advise to Sheikh Obama, please do some thing good for your people (USA)and to the world at large and do not allow your name to be appeared among great stupid of their time: BUSH,CHENNEY & RAMSFILD.

Posted by Al Baloushi | Report as abusive
 

How did nukes get into the discussion ? The Indian posters really need to remain on topic and not turn everything into Pakistan-cussing and Islam-bashing.

 

It is admittedly very hard for me as a Westerner to enter the ethnocentric debates on this page. But I too come from an “Eastern” small place that was culturally swallowed up by the big guys to the West. That, after all, is history. What is most in doubt now is the utility of the “ethno” perspective, given the global character of our economies. Looking at the hate between Pakistanis and Indians and the violence that unleashed between them, one can understand why both groups dragged in the Afghans. The “Islam” link– a sacrilegious abuse of a faith that requires benevolent, judicious, pious detachment, not excuses for self enrichment– may seem to make sense, but what if it were applied to India, a nation so full of Muslims but just as full of Hindus?
The need now is for responsible leadership from the community to the national level that values every life that it is responsible for because it is granted leadership by it. There is a fatalistic Asian perspective that decrees that fate puts us each where we are so the task of each of us is to make the most of that position. Altruism and duty to thy neighbor are anathema in that Sinic perspective. This has led to primitive greatness but as human societies evolved it led to colonialism by newer Western societies. As a Western moral sense eventually rejected colonialism, independence has been a fraud. Video of a girl held down and whipped in Taliban areas rightly outrages us. But how hypocritical are we when we call India– a land of outrageous “untouchables” casting and abuse of women– a “democracy”?
America has nothing to moralize about. Its last leader, Bush, is a criminal deceptor of his fellow Americans, pretending that the robber barons he served were really the security interests of America; he got us so deep in a War on Islam shaped by Zionist interests that were not responsible Israeli leaders but American neoconservatives seeking to achieve “mensch-hood” by promoting war on the Arabs. To their despair, the pendulum the neocons forced from South Asia and Afghanistan onto Iraq has now shifted back to South Asia, where the situation is extremely desperate. But the Taliban-Pakistani conflict of today is quite different for the hunt for binLaden of 2001. For its part, Israel finds itself facing a nuclear-to-be Iran without an Iraqi to balance; so Israel is damning the very Zionazi neocons claiming to speak for Zionism because of the neocons’ reckless “World War IV” against the Arabs. Now the US can’t afford to serve Israeli domination of the Middle East any more while at the same time dealing with the possibility of Islamic chaos in Pakistan, a real nuclear power.
What seems little discussed is what we Americans learned about welfare as a solution to poverty in America: you can’t cure poverty by throwing money at it because it gets into the most crooked “Do-gooders” hands. For example, in NYC, of every welfare dollar only 17c went to the poor, the rest to a bloated “professional” (???) bureaucracy that had careers to preserve by trapping the poor in poverty. So it is in Pakistan, Afghanistan and India. All money cements the culture of inequality, for those in power will steal the money and those without power will only be able to acquire their share through the barrel of a gun….or the BOOM of a bomb. The Taliban, like Hezbollah and HAMAS, may be Medieval in their social operations, but what the people see as well is that they are clean so that Sharia Law means far more than the democratic Afghan, Pakistani and Indian Constitutions. I would close by urging you young Westernized bourgeoisie of South Asia to look into yourselves for how much you live like parasites from the bloodstream of the poor. The poor may have been helpless to stop your blood sucking, but the Taliban has offered them a leveling of the field to where the host and the parasite are both brought under the rule of God. Clearly, the troops defending your privilege and your amoral sense of destiny are not as motivated as the Taliban’s shahids. Do not look to American drones and rockets or intel blind, language deaf and culture dumb forces to save you. You can’t draw sustenance from home, playing in America as do Arab leaders, for that will only get the shahids of Islam on your neck. So look for your own solution so we can go home and leave you to settle your own moral, cultural and social inequity. We are no longer imperial, in part, because we are broke and tired and, though most Americans suffer from the “ain’t my kid fighting in Afghanistan” disconnect syndrome, we are running out of kids who want to volunteer. You can look to China for support, but I think you are better off solving your problems between you South Asians. Right now, you or members of your families have stolen billions $$$ US in aid and gave nothing to your people. The Taliban is holding you responsible. We can go home, but where will you go?

Posted by DE Teodoru | Report as abusive
 

DE Teodoru, Thanks for the long posts.

It will be helpful to know where you come from to understand u better-Country, religion. I am an Indian, a Hindu.

Just specific points:

@Video of a girl held down and whipped in Taliban areas rightly outrages us. But how hypocritical are we when we call India– a land of outrageous “untouchables” casting and abuse of women– a “democracy”?

—I understand the hypocritical word is quite in fashion. Everyone uses against everyone. But can you need to cite the bloggers some example of each-explain why you said so. In India, in Hinduism, social reforms have been happening, to trash the undesirable practices. Social reforms happened in 19th century to get rid of certain age-old practices. At this point and since 1947 Indian independence, constitution addresses that very well. So the difference is: India– a land of outrageous “untouchables” casting and abuse of women– in Indian system both are unlawful and practiced. Outragaeous that you compare this with Taliban flogs a 17yr girl. India is moving forward.

@ For example, in NYC, of every welfare dollar only 17c went to the poor, the rest to a bloated “professional” (???) bureaucracy that had careers to preserve by trapping the poor in poverty. So it is in Pakistan, Afghanistan and India.
–Let it be clear that your money is not in India, just because it is next door to Af-Pak. Money is a complex circle. It is Chinese money perhaps what you are earning if you are in US.

@ Taliban’s shahids.
–What is “shahids” Martyr? Do u mean the usage? It is one thing to criticize West or for that matter any TDH but it is another thing to support the actions of the other—Do you mean what you say?

@ You can look to China for support, but I think you are better off solving your problems between you South Asians. Right now, you or members of your families have stolen billions $$$ US in aid and gave nothing to your people. The Taliban is holding you responsible. We can go home, but where will you go?

-I do not know whom was this addressed to. Are you also suffering from some syndrome that US was invited in Afghanistan or Iraq or anywhere. if US is not invited here, you have no right to say the above.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

Let me repeat: whoever has now nuclear arms will not reliquish them and we are in no position to take them away. Indeed, Iran, the only nation determinated to enter the nuclear state catagory is beyond our power to stop it. But, for better or worse, the Asian Region now has THE SHANGHAI ACCORD as a very sophisticated complex platform on which China, Russia, India, Pakistan, Iran and all the Central Asian states now share. It is a sort of secret society, so secret that we don’t understand who is a member and what that means. It is the ultimate sophisticated application of Hegel’s and Marx’s thesis+antithesis–>synthesis. Contradictions aboud and very clever adaptations are made to get around them. Unity is sweetened with the commercial side of the Accord. But really it is a sort of mutual security pact between antagonists. It is an ingenious idea (that morons in the Bush White house could never dream up) that depends on the whole soothing the anger ond insecurity of the individuals. That is why above I advocate that we leave Afghanistan and Pakistan to the Shanghai Accord to deal with. Holbrook is a bull in a China shop able only at covering up the mess he makes (I know him since Vietnam). Americans have proven to be self-serving (I mean really self, not country) shortsighted simpletons. Whatever their flaws and corruptions, the members of the Shanghai Accord have proven able to smooth over wrinkles in their inter-allies peace. If we pull out our troops and NATO too, offering to assist only in whatever the Accord UNANIMOUSLY decides, they will apply to the region a level of diplomatic sophistication that we have not seem since the Middle Ages when we Europeans were running around naked in rags throwind spears at eachother and they were great empires of rich cultures precticing sophisticated diplomacy. So let’s get out and let THE SHANGHAI ACCORD DEAL WITH AFGHANISTAN-PAKISTAN. Do you Indian-Pakistanis think you can lay aside your silly debates to discuss that on this site?

Posted by DE Teodoru | Report as abusive
 

@Do you Indian-Pakistanis think you can lay aside your silly debates to discuss that on this site?
- Posted by DE Teodoru

–Interesting point on Shanghai Accord and ur views on large view of US war–true it is bigger game–not just women rights/prevention of flogging type nothings.

I saw ur views on India/Pak/China/Afghanistan/Tal—-To me your hypothesis is severely flawed in parts.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

Guys:

DE Teodoru has interesting view of the situation–the larger picture. Worth discussing I think.

Thanks

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

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