Defending women’s rights in Afghanistan and Pakistan

April 4, 2009

Barely had President Barack Obama outlined a new strategy for Afghanistan and Pakistan meant to narrow the focus to eliminating the threat from al Qaeda and its Islamist allies, before the U.S.-led campaign ran into what was always going to be one of its biggest problems in limiting its goals. What does it do about the rights of women in the region?

The treatment of women has dominated the headlines this week after Afghan President Hamid Karzai signed a new law for the minority Shi’ite population which both the United States and the United Nations said could undermine women’s rights. Karzai has promised a review of the law, while also complaining it was misinterpreted by Western journalists. 

In Pakistan, video footage has been circulated of Taliban militants flogging a teenage girl in the Swat valley, where the government concluded a peace deal with the Taliban in February. The graphic and disturbing video, which has been posted on YouTube, has outraged many Pakistanis and the flogging was condemned by Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gilani as shameful. There have been contradictory reports of exactly when and why the girl was punished, although Dawn newspaper quoted a witness as saying she was flogged two weeks ago for refusing a marriage proposal.

But where do women’s rights fit into the new strategy for Afghanistan and Pakistan?

The New York Times quoted Secretary of State Hillary Clinton as saying in response to a question on the Afghan law that “women’s rights are a central part of the foreign policy of the Obama administration”.

Mark Malloch Brown, Britain’s foreign office minister for Africa, Asia and the U.N., was quoted by the Guardian as expressing dismay over the Afghan law’s impact on women’s rights. “We are caught in the Catch-22 that the Afghans obviously have the right to write their own laws,” he said. “But there is dismay. The rights of women was one of the reasons the UK and many in the west threw ourselves into the struggle in Afghanistan. It matters greatly to us and our public opinion.”

And NATO Secretary-General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer said the Afghan law could make it harder to raise troops to be sent to Afghanistan. “We are there to defend universal values and when I see, at the moment, a law threatening to come into effect which fundamentally violates women’s rights and human rights, that worries me,” he told the BBC.

Now, setting aside for the moment the question of how far the West should be prepared to fight for women’s rights, compare these statements to what Obama said when he defined his strategy for Afghanistan and Pakistan:

“Many people in the United States — and many in partner countries that have sacrificed so much — have a simple question: What is our purpose in Afghanistan?  After so many years, they ask, why do our men and women still fight and die there?  And they deserve a straightforward answer.

“So let me be clear: Al Qaeda and its allies — the terrorists who planned and supported the 9/11 attacks — are in Pakistan and Afghanistan.  Multiple intelligence estimates have warned that al Qaeda is actively planning attacks on the United States homeland from its safe haven in Pakistan.  And if the Afghan government falls to the Taliban — or allows al Qaeda to go unchallenged — that country will again be a base for terrorists who want to kill as many of our people as they possibly can.”

His comments were seen as a break from the aims of the former Bush administration to impose Western-style democracy in Afghanistan.  Defense Secretary Robert Gates has been clear about the need to keep the goals limited, telling Congress: “If we set ourselves the objective of creating some sort of Central Asian Valhalla over there, we will lose.”

Narrowing the focus to defeating the threat from al Qaeda and its Islamist allies will force Washington to make some unpalatable choices about how far it is willing to turn a blind eye to the repressive treatment of women both in Afghan society and among the Pashtun tribals in Pakistan.  Is the renewed attention on women’s rights the first evidence of mission creep?

You might argue, as does Rafia Zakaria in this editorial in the Daily Times, that there is a moral obligation to help Afghan women.  You might also argue that raising the status of women often has powerful impact on improving economic conditions — helping to eliminate the poverty in which Islamist militancy thrives.

But that’s far closer to nation-building than to setting limited goals. And it’s not what Obama said when he defined the purpose of sending  men and women to fight and die in Afghanistan. 

(Reuters file photos: President Barack Obama, and women in Taloqan in Afghanistan)

54 comments

We welcome comments that advance the story through relevant opinion, anecdotes, links and data. If you see a comment that you believe is irrelevant or inappropriate, you can flag it to our editors by using the report abuse links. Views expressed in the comments do not represent those of Reuters. For more information on our comment policy, see http://blogs.reuters.com/fulldisclosure/2010/09/27/toward-a-more-thoughtful-conversation-on-stories/

Myra,

Just today I read that 4 men were murdered in Iraq just for being gay. If you punch islam, women on YouTube you will see scores of clips of Friday sermons wherein clerics explain how to beat a woman as a measure of disciplining, sounds funny, right. I posted this web link on one of your columns a few weeks ago.

IMF in late 2008 set a condition asking while considering a loan appeal, Pakistan to cut defense spending by 30% and divert the funds to nation building. Pak complained to US and then the latter convinced IMF to withdraw the condition and disburse loan without any preconditions.

Its their law who are we to intervene- is a question that crops up time and again dampening all the enthusiasm of philanthropists. These subjects like womens freedom and equality should be discussed on international forums and stringent laws should be passed in UN. Then implementation of laws is an onerous task that should be addressed not easy I know.

President Obama has to shrink the objectives of Afpak intervention, to contain the spread and limit terror activity in the region, that goal in itself is a tough one. Making them western like democracies should be left for future.

Hello Myra,

I’m doing research on terrorism, and I’ve put together a pre-survey questionnaire that I’m circulating in order to get feedback on what a non-biased (non-western, non-white) survey might look like. The final survey will go out later this year.

The survey can be accessed at johnmaszka.com/SURVEY.html

Would you post it, and possibly circulate it? I’m very interested in incorporating the views of women, non-whites, and people living outside of America and Western Europe.

I’d appreciate it.

Thanks!
Take care,

John Maszka

Myra,

The US/NATO cannot bear the burden in tax dollars and in blood of its soldiers in an effort to uphold a western style morality in Islamic republics. That is not what the US/NATO had signed up to do. Let the people overthrow arcane laws. It’ll happen over time. The US/NATO has limited influence on local governance and it can only threaten to stop foreign aid if the local laws are insufficient or lack transparency.

Conceptually, if an Islamic republic chooses an Islamic law how can the US/NATO morally object to it? After all, Saudi Arabia forbids women from driving and going out freely without the permission of men. However, the King of Saudi Arabia, who is also head of the government, is wined & dined in Washington & London. No one lectures the King on the treatment of women and minorities. Why to practice selective morality in Afghanistan & Pakistan knowing the fact that Sharia law finds resonance with the local populace?

Posted by Nikhil | Report as abusive

Myra
I want to address the part of your post regarding the flogging of the girl in Pakistan. This is an act which I and millions of Pakistanis do not support, I heard the Taliban spokesman interviewed by GEO TV that it is an attempt to make ordinary Pakistanis hate the Shariat. Also, just now I was watching to GEO TV program hosted by Dr. Shahid Masood who was talking to an economist. He said that the upcoming $1.5bn yearly economic assistance is the real reason behind this. It is known that US will not write blank checks for Zardari regime in Pakistan. They will channel the money through NGOs in Pakistan, those NGOs that will certify to the US that government of Pakistan is working well and on course. This is going to be a challenge for Pakistan, already the girl flogging video has done damage. Ordinary women at home might have got affected in homes after they wathced it on their TVs. Though Chief Justice of Pakistan has summoned the girl to court and have questioned the NWFP government and local police in SWAT on the incident. Today they were demonstrations in the cities by members of civil society. We will stand up against such acts, we will not support such people who commit these atcs. Lets not jump into conclusion till we know the fact whether it was a propaganda video or are Taliban really threatning muslim Pakistani way of life in this manner. I am not defending Taliban or criticising US, it is for us the analyze the whole situation carefully.

However, the appearence of the video and its timing is strategic, there is more to it. Some might feel I am trying to hatch some sort of conspiracy theory, my question why the video at this time? After Af-Pak policy review and announcement of economic assistance(i hate to use the word ‘aid’). Is the video related with the assistance that is due? not sure.

Also,the US which is desperately seeking more support from countries like India, Iran and Turkey to win the war in Afghanistan. I wish we were economically strong, this we could have been in a better position. Currently, the danger is Pakistan’s government getting so weak that all of Pakistan’s national interests are compromised.

Lastly, Islam has given a very elevated status to women. Woman is a pivot of society in every role she plays, mother, sister, daughter and wife. Islam recognizes this, no law in Islam is meant to torture or mistreat women.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Myra
“But where do women’s rights fit into the new strategy for Afghanistan and Pakistan?”

—Well, they do…
*Mr Obama’s speech -“For the Afghan people, the return to Taliban rule would condemn their country to brutal governance, international isolation, a paralysed economy and the denial of basic human rights to the Afghan people, especially women and girls.”

—Whoever has scripted his indecipherable speech has done a spectacular hotchpotch of a job-
Addressed to all, Adhered to none.

Posted by anup | Report as abusive

umair
“Some might feel I am trying to hatch some sort of conspiracy theory, my question why the video at this time?”

—Righto! It does looks like a scene from c-grade Hollywood movie, I think i’ve seen that mullah in some other movie & even the girl being spanked seemed familiar, she’s done some burka-clad small roles in other such sadistic c grade movies, good performance by both the actors —huh, what say you???

Posted by anup | Report as abusive

I just finished reading “Three Cups of Tea”, the story of Greg Mortenson”s successful efforts to build schools for girls in this very region. After reading the book there is no question that this suppression of knowledge among women is being forced by the Taliban and not something wanted by the Muslim people themselves. They have worked hand in hand with this man to build schools for their daughters, and on two occasions have successfully appealed fatwas issued by local clerics against Mortenson to higher religious authorities. On one occasion they appealed to an Ayatola in Iran who came down on the side of Mortenson in his efforts to build the schools.

Posted by tmac1945 | Report as abusive

Western Countries needs to understand Islam deeply. Instead of talking about the women status in Pakistan, a Afghanistan, and other Islamic States, Western Countries should look into their own Backyard first and analyse where they stand.

What we saw was only one video clip of a tribal punishment. Who knows how many are going on where no one is recording the event? That said, what can be done about it? Progress is the only way these acts can be eliminated. And progress will not happen where backwardness has set in and the region has turned into rubble.

As a believer in the law of karma, I’d say whatever is going on is due to karma. It is being worked out, however sad things might be. That is the only thing I can console myself with. Even the financial disaster in the US and the western world, I’d say is due to their bad karma. In one shot, everything fell apart.

Here is a link where Indians march to show their support of Pakistanis.

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn -content-library/dawn/news/world/indians -express-solidarity-with-pakistani-march ers–bi

We Indians are not evil people. We’d like to help and would like to forgive. This is a very crucial time in history. Here is an opportunity to work together and get rid off the elements that are threatening the future of the region. The people of the two nations have to start a movement that helps fight terrorism, backwardness and wars. Our governments will not do. People will have to build the bridge. Otherwise we are going to see a disaster of unprecedented scale.

Myra,

All these anti-women laws are terrible and that goes without saying and many even in Pakistan would agree with that.

Obama said “women’s rights are a central part of the foreign policy of the Obama administration”.

-Americans must make it central part of the American policy first IN PRACTICE. Just the fact American women are not flogged does not women they have equal rights–may be on the paper, but in reality. This is the fact as of in 20009. I suggest those who google for Islam and women’s rights also google for america and women’s rights. This is the hypocrisy at its best. when did american women came out of their homes to do and achieve what men can do–around great depression for the economic reasons, not for their rights, their right to vote, wages, going up the ladder is harder for a woman, reproductive rights. America is yet to have its woman president. Yes it all happens without they getting flogged since times there have changed. Always keep this in mind.
Please do not give advantage to Americans right from beginning the article.

Myra’s questions

1. What does it do about the rights of women in the region?
–Does he care? NO

2. But where do women’s rights fit into the new strategy for Afghanistan and Pakistan?
–Sec Clinton “women’s rights are a central part of the foreign policy of the Obama administration”. Empty words are useless just meaningless soundbytes. Myra, now you are US-driven media and will try to do this missionary type job—to every evil America is the answer and make it sound as if they really got to do anything with it.
My answer, American will give statements and that’s all—even Gilani did so what’s the difference?
3. Is the renewed attention on women’s rights the first evidence of mission creep?
NY time article you posted “Women Erased in Israel, Flogged in Pakistan and Restricted in Afghanistan” NY times: Again how about America. The new title should read “Women Erased in Israel, Flogged in Pakistan and Restricted in Afghanistan, lagging behind men due to policies of America”. If Israel is here, why not talk about America too.

If US/NATO can have the public on their sides—that’s their biggest achievement—and US/NATO care less on this, which will help them achieve military objectives. Women’s rights is the last thing on their minds—not giving them sleepless nights for sure. Amricans should say & do what they mean—otherwise they are fast becoming a joke in every sense of the word.

“NATO Secretary-General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer: “We are there to defend universal values and when I see, at the moment, a law threatening to come into effect which fundamentally violates women’s rights and human rights,”— Universal values—no such thing, women’ rights-BS; human rights—the biggest crap ever. Such a non-serious meaningless stuff.

US/NATO’s central policy should be to take care of all kinds of militants and have a common man secure and on their side.

Myra: Talking about “rights”, how many innocents have died in the region—collateral damage I mean-any estimates? Iraq is not ur territory so won’t ask you that.

Women’s rights taken care by Ameica—That is so not part of their fabric. -a BS that makes me laugh. America is quite backward in this area.

http://www.infoplease.com/spot/womenstim eline3.html

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Rajeev

Your criticism of american society based on your ill-conceived perception of sex discrimination is a stretch way beyond the truth. The very fact that you cited a number of court cases in your referenced weblink, which were almost all settled in favor of fairer sex, is an endorsement of emboldened womens liberation in the USA. So, drawing comparisons to muslim women in Islamic countries to american women at best may be characterized as below par your other posts.

Many of us who live here in US cant help but notice the yawning gap between the freedoms enjoyed by western women and asian/other women. Admirably,a developing country like India is making a rapid progress in womens lib past few decades.

The beauty is that the indian law is as good as any other western nation in dealing with womens equality, it’s the family imposed nonviolent persuasions that make women limit their mindset and steer clear of risky behavior. This is the most important difference between india/USA and Islamic countries, wherein in latter countries the constitution hands down a bad deal to fairer sex.

All issues of human rights, minority rights etc are used by nations for political reasons. None of them care in reality about any of these rights.

Americans and others condemn about women’s backwardness in other countries. But no one will dare go after Saudi Arabia for openly practicing rigid laws that blatantly discriminate women. But South Africa was subjected to trade embargo and economic sanctions to get rid off Apartheid. Why not impose sanctions against countries that openly make it a law to discriminate in the name of religion or whatever?

It won’t happen. The reason is resources and money. Saudi Arabia is no different than Taliban run administration. The only difference is that Saudi Arabia is an oil producer and world nations need oil. So if girls die in fire in a school because the religious scholar decided that they should not remove their face coverings, the US and many “forward” nations would turn a blind eye to it.

The reason why there is overt discrimination in many parts of the world is because of selective preaching, condemnation and ignorance due to geo-political reasons. Those who condemn others for discrimination should learn to be fair in their judgment and try to have the same approach against all nations that have official policies of discrimination.

First of all, I have lived in the USA for about 13years. I watched the video, and I would have felt bad about it, had I not known the culture and religion. In the USA, a person sister, wife, mother, and daughter could have sex with anyone they wished, but in Islam it is consider a big sin. Women are just lashed 100 times, while the guy is stoned to death. So, I don’t know if you can say that this is unfair to women. I don’t know but here in US people have no respect for women. Even those married, the guy feel sorry that his wife has slept with some other guy. I don’t now but that feeling is very bad, I am talking from personal experiance. Good Luck with that, give all the rights to women, and let them have sex with as many guys they want. It’s your wife, mother, sister and the daughter I am talking about.

Posted by Waqar Khan | Report as abusive

Waqar Khan,

Rights do not translate to sex with no controls. Rights means people have the freedom to choose their partners (no mercy killings), and live like normal human beings. If there is illicit sexual relationship, the spouse can always seek a divorce and move on. And it is very normal in many societies. It is painful, but it is better to seek a separation than live with a spouse who is cheating. Rights also means equal access to education, career and independence in life. Why should women be dependent on men? Those days are over. Women should have all rights that men have. If they want to appear sexy, that is their freedom. Social expectations in general make sure no one goes over board. There are women who are exhibitionists. But one can always close their eyes if they feel tempted. Let someone who has never sinned cast the first stone.

Also by providing a counter point to what has happened in Swat, you are indirectly supporting the actions there. No one has the right to whip others for their fundamental rights. Feeling attracted is natural.

Societies which have liberated women have progressed incredibly. India itself is realizing it. Women’s liberation is key to freeing India out of caste prejudice, population explosion, and better life in general. Women have the power to keep societies in harmony. Men only destroy them. And history until now is proof for that. Please do not feel upset. I understand that your pride hurts for the attention Swat has drawn. But you are not responsible for it.

@Your criticism of american society based on your ill-conceived perception of sex discrimination is a stretch way beyond the truth. The very fact that you cited a number of court cases in your referenced weblink, which were almost all settled in favor of fairer sex, is an endorsement of emboldened womens liberation in the USA. So, drawing comparisons to muslim women in Islamic countries to american women at best may be characterized as below par your other posts.
Posted by azaddp
– “ill-conceived notion”, a bad choice of words. I live in US as much as you do and I am not shooting crap here. Look around-there is a visible difference in men and women in many walks of life. Less women in higher up position, gender inequality in earnings (gap decreasing though and being addressed). The comparison is not between the rights of that poor 17Yr old girl in SWAT with an American woman! I would compare her rights with a woman in Pakistan or Sindh. Point is women’s equal rights in US is an ongoing process and much delayed for an advanced country. And do not stick to the weblink— I would have chosen a much better to prove my case. Then what does this tell you from the link: Quote “Pres Obama signed the “Lily Ledbetter Fair Pay Restoration Act” just now in he bill just now in 2009 which allows victims of pay discrimination to file a complaint with the government against their employer within 180 days of their last paycheck. Previously, victims (most often women) were only allowed 180 days from the date of the first unfair paycheck. This Act is named after a former employee of Goodyear who alleged that she was paid 15-40 percent less than her male counterparts, which was later found to be accurate.” Unquote. It has been addressed but one would expect it to happen much earlier. If you google, you’ll find more information.

@it’s the family imposed nonviolent persuasions that make women (in US) limit their mindset and steer clear of risky behavior.
–That too but external factors also play-perhaos are dominant. One American woman’s whom I personally know said to the audience of men/women when she achieved a position of recognition “I was told by women not to pursue my career this aggressively and pay more attention to my kids, since there exists a gender gap and to bridge it, a woman has to put in 125% vs a man for the same position”. Well lucky for her she achieved but does it not it tell the feeling she has.

Of course everyone, everyone’s favorite GK: US still has to have woman as President. Perhaps a mere coincidence?—I do not think so. This is not merely a stat, it is indicative of the fact that women are lagging behind men in politics.

Here is the quote from a link “A final factor when considering why the United States lags behind other countries is the LACK OF WOMEN IN THE POLITICAL PIPELINE. THE UNITED STATES RANKS 68TH AMONG THE WORLD’S COUNTRIES IN TERMS OF OUR RATIO OF FEMALE REPRESENTATIVES IN THE NATIONAL LEGISLATURE, according to the Inter-Parliamentary Union. That places us far behind top-ranked Rwanda, where roughly half of the legislative seats are held by women, and behind every country in Scandinavia as well as China, Iraq and Afghanistan.” Astonishing isn’t it, there must be a better reason to it than an “ill-conceived notion”.

Equal rights does not mean equal outcome.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Rajiv

you are sitting with mr waqar khan, our *fellow american*, on this column, enjoy his company mate

now, You seem more ill conceived than him

@Rajiv
you are sitting with mr waqar khan, our *fellow american*, on this column, enjoy his company mate.
now, You seem more ill conceived than him.
- Posted by AzadDP

–wow! what a reply to my message. If you have run out of substance, do one favor to yourself, bail out gracefully than sending the above crap. Read carefully. If you did, your analysis sucks. I expected something better from you, but you are in the habit of wrongly categorizing people from your previous posts. Now, should I lump you with certain Pakistanis who cannot comprehend this much.

Keep on cruising in the wrong lane!

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

@Rajeev

Just a few questions, each being conditional upon the preceding question. Please be specific and constructive in your answers. I am most interested to hear them.

1. Do you believe the law in question will violate human rights?

2. If so, do you believe the international community has a duty to defend the rights of all humans, including women’s rights, whenever it has the chance?

3. And if yes to number 2, can you please list your recommendations as the how the approach should be made and what unblemished nation you would recommend to lead in this cause?

I love you.
Peace.

Posted by Patrick | Report as abusive

@Myra

Thank you for the article. Is there any word yet as to the enforcement of these laws and the penalities for breaking them? Also, I have seen in many articles, almost as a side note, that a seperate set of laws will be made for the Sunni majority in Afghanistan. But I cannot seem to find any resources online as to what has been proposed for the Sunni family laws. Can you shed some light on this, and point me in the direction of said resources, if there are any? Thank you in advance.

I love you.
Peace.

Posted by Patrick | Report as abusive

….in some remote village of India some gal getting married to more than one males…women are forced to end life, bcs her hubby died…, remarriage is not encouraged… somewhere on europe, father rapes her daughter,.. in front of children which he had from her only,… males marrying males…women to women….,
i dont feel anything much worse happened on Afghan-Pak…
or is it a conspiracy against Islam…!!
Bad is bad… whether it is from christians, hindus, or muslims…or anyone…, but am pretty sure, no religion will support any violence against the other half mankind(women)…

Waqar Khan
“It’s your wife, mother, sister and the daughter I am talking about.”

—You seem to have missed the point altogether – It’s ‘your’ wife, mother, sister and the daughter being flogged for adultery that we am talking about…

Posted by anup | Report as abusive

Such a big issue over a small tissue!

Posted by anup | Report as abusive

rajeev

–With due respect your grasp of the situation is erroneous – the global civilized societies irrespective of their past discriminative baggages of gender/racial/ religion et al are positively progressing on the path of evolution – same cannot be said of the barbaric societies who refuse to evolve & i personally believe that issues like eradication of malnutrition, women empowerment & other such fundamental rights of individuals & societies must be enforced with a collective conscience, if need be by enacting international laws…

Posted by anup | Report as abusive

And here am I sitting with my thoughts in the knowledge that Mr. Mohammed Ali Jinnah wanted a Pakistan that is tolerant, advanced, forward thinking, knowledgable, educated, exemplorary from all other Muslim and/or Arab nations. He wanted a Pakistan that would be an example to the rest. If he was alive today I would love to hear his thoughts on today’s Pakistan.

So much for, “You are free; you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place of worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed — that has nothing to do with the business of the State… We are starting with this fundamental principle that we are all citizens and equal citizens of one State…”

Jinnah did mean women in his historic speech too?

Posted by bulletfish | Report as abusive

@….in some remote village of India some gal getting married to more than one males…women are forced to end life, bcs her hubby died…, remarriage is not encouraged… somewhere on europe, father rapes her daughter,.. in front of children which he had from her only,… males marrying males…women to women….,
i dont feel anything much worse happened on Afghan-Pak…
or is it a conspiracy against Islam…!!
Bad is bad… whether it is from christians, hindus, or muslims…or anyone…, but am pretty sure, no religion will support any violence against the other half mankind(women)…
- Posted by mujeeb patla

–The difference is all this is ILLEGAL. Without getting into the your each point, as an example, your quote women are forced to end life, bcs her hubby died…,” True in old times-called “Sati Pratha”. Modern Indian renaissance and social reforms in India (Raja Ram Mohan Roy) Indians has made it illegal in 19th century.

@”remarriage is not encouraged…”
–That was 150yrs ago. Not now. Hindu widow’s remarriage act came into place in 19th century.

So in India, the religious or social customs have been changed with times.

In contrast, despite taking into account the sensitivities of the local culture, Burqa, flogging, chopping hands-in public and…. is ridiculous. Don’t defend if you do not mean it. If you do not want them to change, these outdated laws will exist forever. Find your own alternate laws or perhaps there should be universal laws, which I doubt will happen so easy.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

[...] blogs Blog: Defending women’s rights in Afghanistan, Pakistan Blog: Does youth trump experience in [...]

Anup, with due respect:
@rajeev
–With due respect your grasp of the situation is erroneous
-????? if we compare US vs SWAT then yes I agree to the above.

@the global civilized societies irrespective of their past discriminative baggages of gender/racial/ religion et al are positively progressing on the path of evolution
–Very true and I agree absolutely.
@same cannot be said of the barbaric societies who refuse to evolve
—Muslim society in question here for the laws that you and I feel are barbaric.

@& i personally believe that issues like eradication of malnutrition, women empowerment & other such fundamental rights of individuals & societies must be enforced with a collective conscience, if need be by enacting international laws…
–Definitely, I would like some set of international laws immediately–like eradication of malnutrition etc that will make societies talking to each other and more ready for bigger changes.

In my views about your point, “societies must be enforced with a collective conscience” is just not possible. Conscience is from within not from outside-cannot be enforced or guided by an outsider. Changes have to be organic, else they are artificial and non-viable. So collective conscience/international laws for all above issues is hard to achieve–conflicts of cultures etc.

In war on terror, how serious are the “powers” for all these social issues. To me, this is just a lip service.

–Anup, do you think there exists a gender gap in US? Do you not think that it pr-woman process has been slow. Do not compare US with some barbaric society.
–Also, what in your mind could be the reason that US does not have a president thus far—less women in pipeline in politics?–but why more progress in third world countries and elsewhere too, I do not want to restart the argument though.

Also it will be intersting to hear Americans’ views on this.

Patrick:
I will get back to you some time soon on your post–Time issue. ThanX

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Anup:
@same cannot be said of the barbaric societies who refuse to evolve
—Muslim society in question here for the laws that you and I feel are barbaric. Yes I agree to “evolve”.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

The world has progressed quite a lot towards fairness towards the fairer sex. The Western democracies need to be commended for taking that lead. And I am glad that other countries are picking up.

Every country still has a lot to do. In India, we have female infanticide, female fetus abortions, dowry deaths, flesh trade that enslaves young girls from poor background and condemns to the life of forced prostitution for life etc. In some states like Rajasthan, the male to female ratio has been abnormally skewed because of abortions.

In Muslim nations, polygamy leads to exploitation of women. There are cases where girls as young as 12 or 13 get forcibly married off to elderly men in their 70s. Asking women to cover from head to toe is an Arab tribal custom that has been inserted into the religion. As times change, religions, like languages, have to evolve according to times and give up some old values. These changes will never affect the spiritual aspect of a religion.

In Northern Africa there are genital mutilations that cause pain and suffering.

Rape is another crime against women that is universal. I’d definitely vote for severe punishment to rapists – death penalty or surgical removal of testes. That will serve as a lesson to everyone. Serial rapists must be put to death. I know there are some who are against death penalty. I am not one of them. Serial rapists and sadists are a menace to any society.

As far adultery, fornication etc., so long as it is not child molestation, two consenting adults must be dealt with laws that are civil. Stoning, lashing etc must be abolished.

The world is progressing by better awareness and things won’t happen over night. Education, and better living standards are the only way people will become civilized.

bulletfish
“Mr. Mohammed Ali Jinnah wanted a Pakistan that is tolerant, advanced, forward thinking, knowledgable, educated, exemplorary…”

—Is this really what the psychopath expected to build on the corpse of a million innocents? could the end result had been any diff. from what’s the present sorry state of affairs?
…They were just pleasing words for the ears of his western masters & his illegitimate legacy is what the Pakistani’s have mastered & live-up to till-date.

Posted by anup | Report as abusive

Rajeev
“Changes have to be organic, else they are artificial and non-viable. So collective conscience/international laws for all above issues is hard to achieve–conflicts of cultures etc.”

—Well, all man-made laws & cultural concepts are artificial & not nature’s laws, but they are tried & tested thru ages & serve the purpose of checks & balance until the time the transition takes place from temporary ‘collective conscience’ to constant ‘individual conscience’& then they can be discarded conveniently or will drop off on their own.
Whatever may be the shortfall’s of the American societies but many of their leadership have displayed rare courage – e.g. Abraham Lincoln opted for a civil war but not a division of the country – the abolishment of slavery – I personally feel that, when a true evaluation of history will be done, Martin Luther King shall be the unanimously considered as the greatest champion of non-violence.
Although America has a long way to go & may probably always fall short of being a cultural society like the europeans or asians, their meagre contribution to the present world does needs some appreciation.

Posted by anup | Report as abusive

umair
“I could reply with even more bad words regarding your leader Gandhi Ji.”

—Even this has been taken care of by Jinnah – by stabbing Gandhi in the back – lol, he’s left nothin to be done by the future creeps.

Posted by anup | Report as abusive

“The New York Times quoted Secretary of State Hillary Clinton as saying in response to a question on the Afghan law that “women’s rights are a central part of the foreign policy of the Obama administration”.

—Hmmmmm, is she planning to handover Monica to the Mullahs…

Posted by anup | Report as abusive

Anup
“—Even this has been taken care of by Jinnah – by stabbing Gandhi in the back – lol, he’s left nothin to be done by the future creeps.”

Mr. Jinnah was originally member of Congress, but it were snakes like you that compelled Mr. Jinnah to join the Msulim League and quit Congress.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

I have seen that some people are beating the drum in the name of women rights. I have never seen there is a single nation has ever give women right. Every culture use women as a sexual object. Only, Islam has deliver complete women to be recognize as human. Every customs and religion except Islam preach and practice women are men personal property. In America, every second one woman been sexually assault.Only, Islam can give true and practical women right and treat women as human, status and honor. There is not even one path except Islam.

Myra,

Ironically, the assertions here about how Islam, and only Islam, respects(?) women are written by men. Ain’t that something? lol

Posted by Nikhil | Report as abusive

Patrick:
First off, I give US credit where it deserves and there are lots of areas such as leaders in science and technology, sports–the place where people all over the world come temporarily or live forever. Since we are talking about human rights here by US—more specifically women’s rights, I will stick to the issue. Where is US on the HR issue? You know my views from earlier posts.
Here are some specific quotes about US on the women’s rights issues:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_par ties_to_the_Convention_on_the_Eliminatio n_of_All_Forms_of_Discrimination_Against _Women
“The Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women (CEDAW) is an international convention adopted in 1979 by the UN General Assembly. Described as an international bill of rights for women, it came into force on 3 September 1981. THE UNITED STATES IS THE ONLY DEVELOPED NATION THAT HAS NOT RATIFIED THE CEDAW.”
“Many Islamic countries view the CEDAW as culturally biased towards the Western nations and have consequently placed reservations[10] on the elements that they see as in fundamental contradiction with Islamic Sharia law.”
“Although 185 countries have ratified the 1979 treaty, the United States remains one of only eight that have not, alongside Sudan, Somalia, Qatar, Iran, Nauru, Palau and Tonga. THE U.S. SENATE MUST RATIFY THE TREATY AND IT COULD BE DIFFICULT TO PERSUADE BECAUSE THE TREATY SAYS WOMEN SHOULD HAVE ACCESS TO “INFORMATION, COUNSELING AND SERVICES IN FAMILY PLANNING,” WHICH ANTI-CHOICE GROUPS HAVE INTERPRETED AS A GUARANTEED RIGHT TO ABORTION.”
So the pro-life Christianity has been preventing the ratification of the women’s equal rights treaty known as CEDAW thus far. Islamic fundamentalism is the problem in Af/Pak and many other Muslim nations. Due to Pro-choice Christianity, US since last 30yr has signed but not ratified the CEDAW. But the retrogressive laws in Muslim countries are preventing the outcome of the human rights, while the progressive laws in US/West are helping the cause.

http://www.nowpacs.org/2008/obama/issues .html
“Equal Rights and Opportunities: Sen. Obama supports fully equal rights and opportunities for women, including ratification of the Equal Rights Amendment to the U.S. constitution, which he has returned to the Democratic Platform.”
“Ratification of CEDAW: Sen. Obama supports the ratification of the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women (CEDAW). THE U.S. FAILURE TO RATIFY THIS IMPORTANT INTERNATIONAL TREATY HAS BEEN A WORLDWIDE EMBARRASSMENT.”
-hopefully soon Obama gets it done.
But this does not place US in position of strength while talking about the HR-issue. “It’s a shame that the U.S. stands with countries such as Iran, Sudan and Somalia in failing to ratify the treaty.”
Patrick: Is there more to it than just not ratifying the treaty? I mean who cares about CEDAW if US women in reality are seen higher up the ladderin in career just like men, and have equal rights even in the absence of the CEDAW.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Patrick:
First off, I give US credit where it deserves and there are lots of areas such as leaders in science and technology, sports–the place where people all over the world come temporarily or live forever. Since we are talking about human rights here by US—more specifically women’s rights, I will stick to the issue. Where is US on the HR issue? You know my views from earlier posts.
Here are some specific quotes about US on the women’s rights issues:

Wikipedia:
“The Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women (CEDAW) is an international convention adopted in 1979 by the UN General Assembly. Described as an international bill of rights for women, it came into force on 3 September 1981. THE UNITED STATES IS THE ONLY DEVELOPED NATION THAT HAS NOT RATIFIED THE CEDAW.”
“Many Islamic countries view the CEDAW as culturally biased towards the Western nations and have consequently placed reservations[10] on the elements that they see as in fundamental contradiction with Islamic Sharia law.”
“Although 185 countries have ratified the 1979 treaty, the United States remains one of only eight that have not, alongside Sudan, Somalia, Qatar, Iran, Nauru, Palau and Tonga. THE U.S. SENATE MUST RATIFY THE TREATY AND IT COULD BE DIFFICULT TO PERSUADE BECAUSE THE TREATY SAYS WOMEN SHOULD HAVE ACCESS TO “INFORMATION, COUNSELING AND SERVICES IN FAMILY PLANNING,” WHICH ANTI-CHOICE GROUPS HAVE INTERPRETED AS A GUARANTEED RIGHT TO ABORTION.”
So the pro-life Christianity has been preventing the ratification of the women’s equal rights treaty known as CEDAW thus far. Islamic fundamentalism is the problem in Af/Pak and many other Muslim nations. Due to Pro-choice Christianity, US since last 30yr has signed but not ratified the CEDAW. But the retrogressive laws in Muslim countries are preventing the outcome of the human rights, while the progressive laws in US/West are helping the cause.

nowpacs.org
“Equal Rights and Opportunities: Sen. Obama supports fully equal rights and opportunities for women, including ratification of the Equal Rights Amendment to the U.S. constitution, which he has returned to the Democratic Platform.”
“Ratification of CEDAW: Sen. Obama supports the ratification of the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women (CEDAW). THE U.S. FAILURE TO RATIFY THIS IMPORTANT INTERNATIONAL TREATY HAS BEEN A WORLDWIDE EMBARRASSMENT.”
-hopefully soon Obama gets it done.
But this does not place US in position of strength while talking about the HR-issue. “It’s a shame that the U.S. stands with countries such as Iran, Sudan and Somalia in failing to ratify the treaty.”
Patrick: Is there more to it than just not ratifying the treaty? I mean who cares about CEDAW if US women in reality are seen higher up the ladderin in career just like men, and have equal rights even in the absence of the CEDAW.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Patrick:
You asked:
1. Do you believe the law in question will violate human rights?
–Yes. I am glad that you look at it as one of the “human rights violation” rather than just “woman’s rights violation”.
2. If so, do you believe the international community has a duty to defend the rights of all humans, including women’s rights, whenever it has the chance?
-Yes, WHEN there is a chance. Is there a chance now?
3. And if yes to number 2, can you please list your recommendations as the how the approach should be made and what unblemished nation you would recommend to lead in this cause?
Who cares unblemished or not power is what matters, and US has it, so all blemish disappears with power. we can turn and twist like pretzel, US is lagging behind all the develped nations on HR-women issue—have not ratified the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women (CEDAW) treaty yet, and delayed signing of a variety of other laws. This is not to give anyone anyone the impression that US is unfit to do the job. But we must know where US stands on this issue.
Patrick, you Americans will know more closely on this and I will love to know your thoughts on this.
International community is guided by UN, which has a clearly stated set of articles on the issue of human rights, whose interpretation may vary due to several factors. But UN is the in the best position to find the strategy for this cause. Since US is superpower, plays UN proxy, funds projects, and is better suited to lead with the help of others. Right now, special focus on the HR is not part of the original US game plan in Af/pak., and that is to catch elusive OBL Inc. and to sort out Good/Bad Taliban. Such barbaric laws existed before US arrival too, so nothing new. The New York Times quoted Secretary of State Hillary Clinton as saying in response to a question on the Afghan law that “women’s rights are a central part of the foreign policy of the Obama administration”. Do you think she/US means it?—NO. But it will be easier to influence Karzai than elsewhere else—so changes will happen to this law.
But the bigger issue is to tackle it globally. If we really want to undertake it, this involves a true test of diplomacy. US alone cannot do it. UN member nations, the select scholars, lawmakers who know the nations very well will play a crucial role. But I do not think that the sweeping changes in laws can be made at global level in all nations due to religion/culture/social issues etc. Best is to do it in phases (?) so that the small achievable goal motivate. The target areas can be determined based on the comfort level of each country. It must be made sure that the US/world money/aid money for civil purposes is spent for its intended use–an oversight/auditing is must. Give a surge to education/learning for both genders by building schools/institutions; focus on adult education too. In addition, many changes will come from the grass root level-education does wonders. Social changes that are imposed will feel like punishment and will fail. Social reforms will happen only there is a local leader/govt/movement to lead the willing individual, a society and the nation as whole.
A common platform with small aims, designed for win-win situation, avoiding culture clash is a good start. This is a slow process since it is going to be happening in the presence of other negative factors.

Patrick, my questions to you:
1. what are your views on gender gap and other issues on women in US?
2. What’s the reason that women are lagging behind men in US politics?
3. Since you started with “human rights violation”, do you think US is violating human rights (not womens)? How many innocent civilians have died since US necessary/or unnecessary wars, starting with Hiroshima/Nagasaki bombing until Iraq/Afghanistan war? To me, overall this record gives a net disadvantage to US image as a sentinel of human rights issue, e.g., ~100,000 civilians died in Iraq war? If we sum up all, that is quite a bit. How much is the justified collateral damage. But who will question US, the superpower: US electorate is the best mechanism, but not until the voters are educated and aware of the outside world.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Anup:
@Whatever may be the shortfall’s of the American societies but many of their leadership have displayed rare courage – e.g. Abraham Lincoln opted for a civil war but not a division of the country – the abolishment of slavery – I personally feel that, when a true evaluation of history will be done, Martin Luther King shall be the unanimously consider-both as the greatest champion of non-violence.
–Both were great leaders.

@Although America has a long way to go & may probably always fall short of being a cultural society like the europeans or asians, their meagre contribution to the present world does needs some appreciation.”

–I routinely call USA having a different culture, wohatever the negatives/positives may be. It is so different from other cultures. The achievements of USA in science and technology, the institutions of higher education…there is lot that cannot be found of elsewhere and USA deserves credit and is given at appropriate time.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

@Rajeev

Thank you for your answer. Believe it or not, I am in COMPLETE agreement with you on the women’s rights issue. The failure of the US legislature to ratify a sensible, fair piece of legislation like CEDAW is a total embarassment. I also agree that we have no room to preach down to anyone about morals. The religious-right in America continues to shoot itself in the foot again and again. Also, any time “family planning” is mentioned, Evangelicals and Catholics alike freak out like it means abortions will be performed on every street corner. Politicians capitalize on this emotional topic to get themselves elected, while it actually rarely gets discussed at the federal level after elections (except by Bubba Bush, of course).

I re-read my questions, and I apologize if it sounded like I was coming from a US-specific point of view. I just thought maybe you had “painted yourself into a corner” and had inadvertently been grouped with the chauvenists, which from your previous postings, I knew wasn’t true. I guess my point was that while all free nations have had past troubles, our populaces all want to move forward. While we are a motley bunch when viewed individually, we all bring something new to the table. I will definitely give props to India for being the foremost Asian nation on women’s rights (for Americans/Westerners who don’t have knowledge of this, please read about India’s political past on Wikipedia or any other available resource – you might be suprised at how easily women are accepted as leaders in Indian society!). I think the problem in America at the moment, in regard to women’s rights, is that we are a little to proud of our gains in the areas of human rights, and race/gender are being paraded for political gain. Think Hillary Clinton vs. Sarah Palin. Two completely extreme opposites in their views, and both used (by themselves as well) to get in good with women voters.

In this light, if we push for better human rights as a cohesive international community, we have a better chance of making progress in nations that may have a bias towards “this nation” or “that nation”. Again, I thank you for your answer and hope any Americans reading see that we still have some HR-related house cleaning to do before we try to “fix” everyone else. Trying to fly it solo in the face of completely different cultures hasn’t worked so far, so why would it in the future?. I think we all have a lot to learn from each other. (But I still personally think the proposed Afghan law in question is horrible, regardless of culture/ethnicity/religion. Rape is rape is rape.)

Peace.

Posted by Patrick | Report as abusive

@ Rajeev

Sorry. I think I jumped the gun before you were finished. Did my previous post answer your first question and at least partially the second one? If not, let me know and I will try my best to answer them more in detail. In response to the third question, regarding collateral damage and civilian deaths:

In WWII, so many people were dying we thought we were doing the right thing by dropping “the bomb”. We had Japan whipped, but they would not surrender. We were scared to death that we would be in the Pacific theatre with no help while the Soviet Union ran amuck in a completely obliterated Europe. “D-Day”-like storming of beaches was having to be done thousands of times over on all the little islands, and we got desparate. In developing nuclear technology, we unleashed the Messiah/Anti-Christ of all technologies. I will not defend it as the right thing, but my grandfather fought in the Pacific, and took one to the chest. They were going to send him back before Hiroshima/Nagasaki. I am biased on this issue, but believe me when I say we will never harm Japan again. They could burn down Washington, and we would probably let them. No other two countries share this awful relationship, and I hope that no others ever do.

On the more modern conflicts, most of our current “lessons” in war come from the Vietnam War. That, in and of itself, should tell you why we are perplexed in Afghanistan/Pakistan. We developed a deep distrust of local populations in Nam. They would fight with us in the day, and against us at night. Apparently, the Bush administration expected the same type of behaviour in Afghanistan and this has most assuredly not been the case. And, once again, in our fear of losing more American lives, we took a half-a$$ approach which has ended up with all sides losing more, especially the civilian population. On the Iraq front, I won’t make excuses for excessive force, but the number “100,000″ is a bit misleading. Most civilian deaths were from sectarian violence, and that too blew our minds. We really thought they would pull together much quicker. And we really shouldn’t have been there (yet).

I hope I have given the American perspective without sounding like I am trying to make excuses. Also, I hope it may shed some light on our current “alliance” with Pakistan. Pakistan holds all of the cards to repeat all of our worst mistakes, and there was no one there to guide us when the choice was ours. In a single phrase, “We screwed up.” We can only educate ourselves on these mistakes, and help educate others before they make the same ones.

By the way, I completely agree that we should be throwing trillions into education world-wide. This is the only real answer to problems of the world.

Peace.

Posted by Patrick | Report as abusive

A few readers have turned their sights on China asking where it fits in all this regional upheaval.
Here is an interesting piece on the possible winners and losers of the war in Afghanistan.:http://www.reuters.com/arti cle/GCA-BarackObama/idUSTRE5323ZB2009040 4

Posted by Sanjeev Miglani | Report as abusive

Just a comment to the article, Sec of State Clinton sites that women’s rights/equlity is centered in our foreign policy. I feel that women’s rights are important but not as a central point in our foreign policy especially when the host nation’s laws are centered on religion and beliefs that are hundreds to thousands of years old. In this case we’re making the same mistake as we did in Iraq (2003) we’re trying to implement our “popular” beliefs and our style of treatment into a nation/culture that is far older than our own and that are governed by even older laws and beliefs. We’d be better off by enforcing their laws now. Supporting the government, ensuring the local and national governments are able to defend themsevles against the Taliban, Al-Qaeda, etc. Then once the government reclaims control and power then we can move onto changing treatment of people. Had we instilled a strong form of law in Iraq following the war thigns may be different now. Let’s remember, many of these cultures are governed by a strong hand. We must maintain a form of that in order to allow change, eventually.

Posted by KrisR | Report as abusive

RAJEEV WROTE….(addressing Patrick)…. I mean who cares about CEDAW if US women in reality are seen higher up the ladder in career just like men, and have equal rights even in the absence of the CEDAW………..
You answered yourself very accurately. I was critical of your earlier posts not so much because the US womens issues you raised were out of place, but because they seemed to me more academic in nature and only a distraction ( rude, am I).
We live here and we see whats going on here we should be cognizant that our writings criticising american way of life may inadvertently provide wrong leads to umairs living elsewhere. Agree with you, these issues have a strong place (only) in domestic debates, since here we are fine tuning the human/womens rights which have flourished leaps and bounds in the recent past. Abortions are not illegal in USA, cedaw or no cedaw.
You can lump me with anyone you like, it will humor me at most, and not mad. In a lighter vein, I can not figure why womenfolk keep away even from a topic like this, you think they think its none of their business……where is Amy and where is Anita..Alethia for crying out loud.

@RAJEEV WROTE….(addressing Patrick)…. I mean who cares about CEDAW if US women in reality are seen higher up the ladder in career just like men, and have equal rights even in the absence of the CEDAW………..
You answered yourself very accurately. I was critical of your earlier posts not so much because the US womens issues you raised were out of place, but because they seemed to me more academic in nature and only a distraction ( rude, am I).

–Posted by AzadDP
AzadDP :-)
World is not too bad afterall. So, I am not Waqar-case closed.

But on discussion. No pleasing Pakistanis anyWhich Way. We should not stop our Well-meaning ritual of analysis/over-may be sometime. Mostly, in the end Indians are open and at such times 2 Indians may appear poles apart–but they are not, atleast I assume so.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Patrick, Thanx for ur 2 messages. I think we agree on several issues.
@“rape is rape is rape”—-Agree totally with you on the meaning of the law. Given to me, I will kick Karzai’s sorry A$$ and scrap this law in question. In secular democratic societies with a proven history of progressing forward with time, ur anguish at this law is natural. As I said earlier, Afghanistan is much easier to influence than anywhere else. I am glad to hear that this law will probably be scrapped by UN at the US initiative (Congrats to US and Af. women!). In my earlier posts, I was trying to deal the issue of many more such laws (Burqa, flogging and other cutting hands etc. publicly), which are clear violation of HRs but continue to exist in the Af/Pak and other Muslim nations.

@On the Iraq front, I won’t make excuses for excessive force, but the number “100,000? is a bit misleading.
–Yes the civilian deaths and their cause remains and will remain disputed and will remain so. But there are peer-reviewed studies published in the
scientific journals “Lancet” and “New England Journal of Medicine” about this. But it was an unnecessary war.

Just or Unjust wars from US POV will be seen in different light by others. Good things are easily forgotten but consequences of bad policies haunt forever. From India’s POV, the Pakistani attitude and their love for Jihadis/terrorists is the product of the cold war (a right reason for all that acc. to US/Pak collaboration against USSR. Since then, Pak is addicted to US aid and worse is taking it for “guaranteed” and the gluttony is increasing. Post-cold war, all these men and money have worked against India. Right now through this global (?), WOT US again finds an opportunity to change the course of the region—for good or bad. Dark clouds so far.

@About ur grand father in pacific in WWII: I can totally understand the “bias” as U said. I have a neighbor in late 80s a US marine who also served in S. Pacific for ~4-5yrs. I often chat with him and I know how he feels on the nuclear bomb issue. I cannot run the risk of getting into intense arguments with him on this issue–as they say “Once a marine, always a marine. To dispute is to invite the brawl” :-)

@If you do not mind, why you sometime write “I love you”. My idea is to understand the source.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Dear Reuters, why not my comment posted?

I am a Razaker, my father was Razaker he made East Pakistan. In 1970, my father was running for MP as a Muslim league with harrican marka and in 1971, he was peace committee chairman in Balangong and 1906, my grand father was founding member of Muslim league, sate of Assam, district of Sylhet, Balagong delegate.My grand father and father argument was to release East Bengali Proza (Slave).Their stupid philosophy has put us 60 years of bloodshed, hatred and 36 years of Bengali Nationalist and Razaker deep hatred.Now, this is the time to reunification.Bengali will be greatly happy to reunited with their old master west Bengal and Razaker will happy to preach and practice their religion Islam, so let us reunite with India. They made the mistake, now let us solve it. We can prevent 60 years of hatred and bloodshed by a peaceful reunification. Enough is to hate. Now, learn Islam and practice it. We all agree creation of Pakistan was a mistake. Creation of Pakistan gave us nothing but 61 years of hate, bloodshed, identity crisis and prevented us to focus on main thing “The Akeedah”. Now, there is not a Bangli slavery situation. It has abolished by Great Leader Neheru. Bangli can live by their upper caste Hindus. There will be not a problem in the slavery issue. Lets us begin a new chapter of History. Bangladesh and India. Only one country with respect and dignity.

@Rajeev,

I am trying to get back with you. It won’t post my comment in reponse to your question. Hopefully this one gets through.

Patrick

Posted by Patrick | Report as abusive

Mullah Shahin
Salaam mere bhai !!!

You have swept everyone off their feet from mauryan to umair probably even Patrick with your Midwestern tornado like post on this blog.( its not an insult, please trust me)
Now what do you mean by *Iam a Razakar*. What kind of hatred exist between India and Bangladesh. What slavery did Nehru abolish. Who is a Proza. Whats this reunification and whats the advantage in it. Finally, where do you live currently.
Thanks.

@Rajeev,
I am trying to get back with you. It won’t post my comment in reponse to your question. Hopefully this one gets through.
Patrick

-Patrick,
Sure take your time.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Wa’ As salamu alikum,
My dear brother in faith, AzadDP, First of All,in 1971, Razaker was created to defend East Pakistan. After fall of Pakistan, Bengali call every Mullah as Razaker and kill them and torture them. They treat them like out caste human being. in your information, there were two groups one was to defend Pakistan and one was Muktibahini. The slavery(Proza) that East Bengali were facing the great leader Nehru abolished it.I won’t tell you were did I live, but I can tell you that I am a certified Mullah. I graduated from Kumillah Ranir Bazar Madrassa. I have received my Ammah in 1989 and now I am 35.

i think that obama should be speanding more mtime trying to restore the rights of wemon in pakistan. their wemon are killed by their families over a thousend times a year and it seems like it can only worsen. along with the wemon being mistreated they get killed for doing \”disrespectable\” things. so yea thought i would just throw that out there

Posted by anders | Report as abusive