India not the enemy, U.S. tells Pakistan

April 6, 2009

Pakistan’s Dawn newspaper reports from Washington that the United States is seeking fundamental change in Pakistan: it wants Pakistan, presumably the military most of all,  to stop thinking of India as the enemy.

And linked with this, it wants Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence, accused of sponsoring militant groups to advance its security interests in the region, brought under effective civilian control.

Dawn says the Americans are offering Pakistan a new enemy as replacement : the militants operating along the border with Afghanistan who are increasingly striking deeper within Pakistan.

On Sunday a suicide bomber struck in a religious centre in Punjab kiling 22 people, continuing an expansion of the militant campaign into the heartland which seems to have gathered momentum over the past month.

Can it work? India as no longer the existential threat to its very identity as many in Pakistan believe?

U.S. envoy to Afghanistan and Pakistan Richard Holbrooke has begun a fresh trip to the region  this week that will also take him to New Delhi, and a report released by the Asia Society just before that trip suggests ways through which America can begin reshaping perceptions in Pakistan so that it feels less threatened by its bigger neighbour.

Holbrooke and National Security Adviser General James Jones were part of the task force that worked on the report “Back from the Brink: A strategy for stabilising Afghanistan and Pakistan” before they stepped down following their appointment in the Obama administration. A PDF of the report is here.

Very broadly it calls for addressing Pakistan’s security concerns on Afghanistan, Kashmir and nuclear weapons so that “it no longer requires the use of covertly supported guerrilla forces against neighbours.” 

The recommendations of the task force are: support dialogue between India and Paklstan so that they find a lasting solution to Kashmir, address Afghan-Pakistan disputes so that Afghanistan recognizes the Durand Line as the border between the two countries, and finally begin a dialogue with Pakistan over its nuclear  programme including perhaps recognising the reality of  its nuclear weapons.

But what about the mood over the border in India? Since the attacks in Mumbai blamed on the Pakistan-based Lashkar-e-Taiba, India has set its face against a resumption of dialogue that was in any case making fitful progress.

It is now in election mode, and if you follow the debate the mood has clearly hardened with the Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party promising a more muscular Pakistan policy.

But by making Pakistan the overarching element of its security strategy and expecting India to play its part, is the United States  running the risk of ignoring the interests of New Delhi which not long ago was being celebrated as a strategic partner? Is it back to re-hyphenating india and Pakistan, as an Indian analyst here suggests?

[Reuters photo of protest in Lahore against a suicide bombing and U.S. envoy Richard Holbrooke with Afghan President Hamid Karzai]

Comments

Oh Boy! Here we go again! Solve this, that and the other then we will all hold hands and skip and dance in peaceful harmony!

BULLSH*T!

Pakistan made a peace deal with the Taliban “within its own sovereign territory” and there have still been attacks in Pakistan.

I hate seeing India dragged into the Af-Pak situation.

(1) Pakistan created the Taliban (FACT).
(2) It was created to control Afghanistan (FACT).
(3) Taliban in Afghanistan hosted Al-Queda and Osama bin Ladin (FACT).
(4) Osama bin Ladin and his cohorts bombed the US Embassies in Africa (FACT).
(5) Osama bin Ladin and his cohorts planned and executed the 11/09/2001 attacks on the USA (FACT).
(6) USA tells Pakistan that they are either with them or against them (FACT).

I do not see India in any of this.

Posted by bulletfish | Report as abusive
 

Lets face the reality, ISI and Pakistan Army will never change their perception vis-a-vis India unless and untill Pakistan is recognized as a nuclear power and is treated on equal basis with India. India was offered civilian nuclear technology and wider recognition, its about time Pakistan is also recognized equally. Unless Pakistan’s regional interests are recognized and security concerns addressed, there is no chance ISI ceding its leverage to interior ministry, and Pakistan Army reporting to the civilian government.
The question remain, why is the US trying so hard to change India’s perception? where are the Indians? why the Indians are not reaching out to Pakistan and saying, hey look lets press the reset button in our relations and start afresh. Unless India itself is not sincere, India will remain enemy no.1 for Pakistan and millitants will continue to be a secondary threat. While Pakistan needs to redefine its strategic threat, India needs to decide if its in their interest to have a normal relationship with Pakistan.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Taliban blamed for suicide attack on Pakistan mosque.

-Man challenged by security guards at mosque in Chakwal blows himself up, killing at least 22 people. (Guaridan, 5 April 2009).

Come on! Lets hear it now, don’t be shy! RAW, Mossad, Hindu-Zionist conspiracy, RAW, Mossad, Hindu-Zionist conspiracy, RAW, Mossad, Hindu-Zionist conspiracy, RAW, Mossad, Hindu-Zionist conspiracy, RAW, Mossad, Hindu-Zionist conspiracy, RAW, Mossad, Hindu-Zionist conspiracy, RAW, Mossad, Hindu-Zionist conspiracy, RAW, Mossad, Hindu-Zionist conspiracy, RAW, Mossad, Hindu-Zionist conspiracy, RAW, Mossad, Hindu-Zionist conspiracy, RAW, Mossad, Hindu-Zionist conspiracy, RAW, Mossad, Hindu-Zionist conspiracy, RAW, Mossad, Hindu-Zionist conspiracy, RAW, Mossad, Hindu-Zionist conspiracy, RAW, Mossad, Hindu-Zionist conspiracy, RAW, Mossad, Hindu-Zionist conspiracy, RAW, Mossad, Hindu-Zionist conspiracy…etc.

Posted by bulletfish | Report as abusive
 

India was offered civilian nuclear technology and wider recognition, its about time Pakistan is also recognized equally.

Yes, Umair, India was offered the nuclear technology. Pakistan was ‘Johnny-come-lately’ boy wanting the same deal. Why the hell should Pakistan be treated the same as India when Pakistan has created and harboured the same terrorists and Taliban that are attacking it?

FYI, Pakistan is recognised as a nuclear power with a weak govt.

India does want a normal relationship with Pakistan, but Pakistan has to put its own house in order. What is the point of considering the terrorists destroying your country second to India? I can imagine the Taliban flogging your wife and her screaming, “No problem, India is enemy number 1!!!”

What has India got to be sincere about to Pakistan? What the hell has India done to Pakistan recently? Nothing!!!!

Posted by bulletfish | Report as abusive
 

bulletfish
“Why the hell should Pakistan be treated the same as India ”

Ok fine, then let the ISI and Pakistan Army continue with their long term strategic goals. Next time you dont complain then, The ISI doesnt report to Interior ministry and when GHQ plans any offensive military operation, the Prime Minister House is kept out of loop. I guess this is fair game.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan a reluctant partner in war on terror; US media

http://www.geo.tv/4-6-2009/39188.htm
Even before the insurgency has been fully engaged, however, many Pakistanis have concluded that reaching an accommodation with the militants is preferable to fighting them. Some, including mid-ranking soldiers, choose to see the militants not as the enemy, but as fellow Muslims who are deserving of greater sympathy than are the American aims.

It is problematic whether the backing of Mr. Zardari, and the Obama’s administration’s promise of $1.5 billion in aid for each of the next five years, can change the mood in the country, said former interior minister, Aftab Ahmad Sherpao.

Fighting the insurgency is commonly seen in Pakistan as an American cause, not a Pakistani one, he said.

The distrust has been heightened by charges from American officials, including General Petraeus and Mr. Holbrooke, that Pakistan’s spy agency is still supporting militants who pour over the border to fight American troops in Afghanistan.

A former director general of the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), Lt. Gen. Javed Ashraf, said the American opinions, long held but now publicly stated, did not augur well. A spokesman for the Pakistani military called them “baseless” and part of a “malicious campaign.”

“You can’t start a successful operation with a trust deficit,” General Ashraf said.

“Predator strikes are not a strategy, not even part of a strategy,” former army chief of staff and ambassador to Washington, Gen. Jehangir Karamat, said. “They are tactical actions to ratchet up body counts.”

According to the paper, the Americans have been stingy on even the more basic tools for guerrilla warfare, like helicopter gunships and night-vision goggles, which Pakistan has requested for the past three years, Pakistani military officials say. There are still doubts that Washington will deliver such equipment speedily, they say.

Then there is India. Its growing presence in Afghanistan, the building of roads; the opening since 2001 of two consulates in two cities close to Pakistan, makes Pakistan believe it is being encircled, said Ishaq Khan Khakwani, former senator from the Pakistan Muslim League-Q.

The deep questioning about why the Pakistani Army should fight the Taliban reaches well down into the ranks of the soldiers and their families. Dissent on that goal has become increasingly prevalent among rank-and-file soldiers, and even in the officer corps, said Dr. Riffat Hussain, a professor of international relations at Quaid-e-Azam University Islamabad.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

bulletfish
did you read above, the question in Pakistan is why should Pakistan Army fight the Taliban? officer corps and among rank and file soldiers the enemy is the same for now, India.
US is trying hard, bribe worth $1.5 bn per year, threats, drone attacks. Lets see what it takes to get Pakistan change its perception of India?

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Umair:
“Lets face the reality, ISI and Pakistan Army will never change their perception vis-a-vis India unless and untill Pakistan is recognized as a nuclear power and is treated on equal basis with India. India was offered civilian nuclear technology and wider recognition, its about time Pakistan is also recognized equally.”

Besharam !!

You were not offered civilian nuclear technology because of your BAD track record. You had done the proliferation and threatened India a thousand times of nuclear attack.

Everyone fears that your nuclear weapons will fell into hands of terrorists one day.

World is thinking of snatching your nukes, let alone the new technology transfer.

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive
 

@umair says “unless and untill Pakistan is recognized as a nuclear power and is treated on equal basis with India. India was offered civilian nuclear technology and wider recognition, its about time Pakistan is also recognized equally”

umair, the world communnity is already getting jitters about A.Q. khan and the internal turmoil in pakistan..the situtation is really bad… do u really think the world should give the civil neuclear technology and put the world at risk..

the world doesnt trust ur govt..as its not powerful enough and is really corrupt and incompetant..there is army ,ISI and now taliban….and yes the good and the bad one as u pakistanis says..

well ironically, i see only one result….Pakistan will not be able to fight taliban..they are so divided.. taliban will take over pakistan ,now before that happens west has to ensure that they take care of the n-bombs.. and then NATO from west and indian forces from the eastern side will rout taliban and defeat it..

And then to stablise the situtation , Pakistan will be divided into 4-5 countries .. well no matter what u say but that’s where pakistan is heading to …who will stop this ….nobody… West is dependent too much on pakistan to fight this war and they dont understand that the pak govt is too weak and incompetent.

Posted by Raging bull | Report as abusive
 

Punjabiyaar
World is sure thinking of snatching our nukes, the US even has a special task force of 3000 marines on standby in Afghanistan along with their naval fleet to carry out such an operation.
The only problem: they cannot pinpoint the location of storage sites of the war heads and are not sure how Pakistan will respond to such an attempt, it is fraught with great risks and danger. So world can keep on thinking of snatching Pakistan’s nukes because so far they can only think. We will only worry when the world stops thinking and acts to snatch our nukes.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Raging bull:
“well ironically, i see only one result….Pakistan will not be able to fight taliban..they are so divided.. taliban will take over pakistan ,now before that happens west has to ensure that they take care of the n-bombs.. and then NATO from west and indian forces from the eastern side will rout taliban and defeat it.. ”

history shows Pakistan’s ability to fight multiprong warfare in tandem, east or west Pakistan will never be an easy game. Pakistan’s military strategists are well aware of the threat of strategic encirclement of Pakistan and are putting in place counter measures.

As of today, the prime minister met with entire civilian leadership of the four provinces in ISlamabad, while the Army chief presided over the formation commanders meeting in Rawalpindi to review the prevailing the current regional situation. No one should doubt Pakistan’s unity, no one should doubt Pakistan’s ability to face and eliminate challenges to its security.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Umair,

I will agree with Punjabiyaar on this.
India and Pakistan have behaved differently and hence could not be treated equally. World still doesn’t know the whole truth behing the AQ saga. He was put in “house arrest” by Mushi and now he is walking free in Pakistan.

Posted by chirkut | Report as abusive
 

“history shows Pakistan’s ability to fight multiprong warfare in tandem, east or west Pakistan will never be an easy game. Pakistan’s military strategists are well aware of the threat of strategic encirclement of Pakistan and are putting in place counter measures”

yeah we know the capability of pakistan military in 1965 and 1971 wars so let me tell u they have a reputation of loosers..taliban will take over pakistan and u that’s very much possible they are not very far away from islamabad ..

“As of today, the prime minister met with entire civilian leadership of the four provinces in ISlamabad, while the Army chief presided over the formation commanders meeting in Rawalpindi to review the prevailing the current regional situation. No one should doubt Pakistan’s unity, no one should doubt Pakistan’s ability to face and eliminate challenges to its security.”

nobody should doubt !!! u have said it urself its an american war which u r fighting.. now this very attitude will keep u divided… u dont realise how people with guns even if they are islamic soldiers can be a threat to freedom, the very expression of democracy ..

lets hope the govt has got some backbone otherwise start growing a beard and wearing clothes acc to islamic code ..because there is not much time left for the dream of pakistan..

Well can u really undermine their progress..u have to realise that taliban is a potential threat..fata then waziristan then swat…bomb blasts everywhere in major cities.. hope ur govt could take some steps because we definately dont want any pakistani refugees in our side..

Posted by Raging bull | Report as abusive
 

Raging bull
You are much influenced by the media, do you really think Pakistan is falling apart and millitants are taking over? Pakistan is a huge and diverse country and any single isolated incident should not be the basis of your judgement.
Most of all Raging bull and chirkut regarding A.Q Khan and nuclear proliferation, the first notable thing is Pakistan is not a signatory to NPT(Nuclear non-Proliferation Treaty) just like India and Israel.
Secondly, the US also transfered sensitive technology to Britain through 1958 US-UK mutual Defence Agreement. So Pakistan cannot be specifically singled out to be accused of nuclear proliferation. India itself has always been against the NPT and termed it as in favour of nuclear powers.

In 1992 when Benazir Bhutto was Prime Minister she visited China and North Korea. Pakistan was interested to acquire missile technology and North Korea is believed to have recieved centrifuge and uranium enrichment technology from Pakistan including ultra-high speed centrifuges.

My question, Pakistan was always subjected to sanctions, but did that stop Pakistan from developing nuclear and missile technology?

In Pakistan nuclear power constitutes only 1.7% of total electricity supply. At this stage the supply of civilian nuclear technology could help Pakistan to meet its energy demand.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Punjabiyaar
@Umair,

Umair says: “World is sure thinking of snatching our nukes, the US even has a special task force of 3000 marines on standby in Afghanistan along with their naval fleet to carry out such an operation.
The only problem: they cannot pinpoint the location of storage sites of the war heads and are not sure how Pakistan will respond to such an attempt, it is fraught with great risks and danger. So world can keep on thinking of snatching Pakistan’s nukes because so far they can only think. We will only worry when the world stops thinking and acts to snatch our nukes.”

Response:

Don’t kid yourself little man. Those nukes will one day be sitting on an American Miiltary Base, then one day a museum in the Aerospace Museum in Delhi.

Pakistan can still save itself if it mends its ways.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive
 

@Mauryan, Sanjeev, Bloggers,

The U.S. tells Pakistan to quit using Terrorist Jihadi Proxy Armies as instruments of Foreign Policy, please read.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/News  /PoliticsNation/Pakistan-uses-militant- groups-as-foreign-policy-instrument/arti cleshow/4353151.cms

@Umair, this is the dirty tactics, of terrorism that the world is getting so sick of. Pakistan has no more credibility, even China is not going to help Pakistan any more in crisis.

It is time to tighten the screws and crack Pakistan’s skull.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive
 

Umair writes: “ISI and Pakistan Army will never change their perception vis-a-vis India”

Expecting armies and intelligence agencies to change perception is foolish. Army needs an enemy to target. Intelligence units feed into that mind set. ISI can target India, Afghanistan, Kyrgystan, Uzbekistan, Iran and every country in the vicinity as potential targets and live in a state of paranoia. But these things cost BIG money. The logistics of organizing everything from weapons, ammunition, training, planning etc for a war, whether it is direct or indirect, costs A LOT OF MONEY. This is where your country has bled itself to near death. And they have not allowed any civilian government to take root because they have begun to believe that they are masters, not just of your country, but also of Afghanistan and India. That can only be changed when the ISI is dismantled completely. Indians would love to see that, but will not do it. So rest easy.

“unless and untill Pakistan is recognized as a nuclear power and is treated on equal basis with India.”

Pakistan is definitely recognized as a nuclear power, but at par with North Korea, Iran etc., an IRRESPONSIBLE one. The Indians did nothing about it. It is the action of your own people like AQ Khan.

Even if Pakistanis imagine themselves at par with India, the reality is very different. India is enormous in many ways – size, population, economy, infrastructure etc. The world generally reaches out to those countries on equal terms when it sees progress and potential for growth. India has been doing that for a while and hence it is respected in the international circles. Pakistan looks expendable in the eyes of the world powers. If this image needs to change, then Pakistan has to reduce its belligerence and show progress in many fronts that include secularism, education, sound economy etc.. Instead, it has become a “HOT BED” of terrorism. Look at any newspaper in the Western world. This term is used often. To change that, your country has to work honestly.

“India was offered civilian nuclear technology and wider recognition, its about time Pakistan is also recognized equally.”

Holding a gun does not give equal status to a crook and someone who can exercise responsibility. Countries are working on how to get rid off the nuclear weapons from dangerous zones in this world first. Your country unfortunately, fits in that zone.

“Unless Pakistan’s regional interests are recognized and security concerns addressed, there is no chance ISI ceding its leverage to interior ministry, and Pakistan Army reporting to the civilian government.”

Like it or not, the Americans can arm twist Pakistan to do whatever they want. So prepare your mind towards it.

“The question remain, why is the US trying so hard to change India’s perception?”

Because Pakistanis have been wrong and their wrong attitude has led to today’s situation. If Pakistan has to remain as a nation with solid foundations, the first thing to change is the wrong perception about India. WE ARE NOT YOUR ENEMIES. I have said that many times and many Indians will agree to that. We want peace and progress. Your terrorist clans are not allowing us to progress and have begun to take control of your entire country. ISI is not looked at with respect outside of Pakistan. It is considered as a rogue organization that is controlling a country.

“where are the Indians? why the Indians are not reaching out to Pakistan and saying, hey look lets press the reset button in our relations and start afresh.”

We did that in 1972. Bhutto made a promise that the LoC will be respected and all was settled. But look at the situation now.

In 1999 our Prime Minister and your Prime Minister were working towards a peace treaty. And your beloved Musharraf ignored everything and launched the Kargil offensive that derailed everything.

Man Mohan Singh and even Musharraf came close to a settlement. Everything was going fine when the Mumbai attacks happened. And the way the Zardari government acted in the aftermath in denial, erased whatever little trust Indians had on Pakistani establishment.

So the ball is in Pakistan’s court on how to act trust worthy. Even the Americans are finding it hard to trust the Pakistanis. So start there first.

“Unless India itself is not sincere, India will remain enemy no.1 for Pakistan and millitants will continue to be a secondary threat.”

It is time you opened the eyes and looked. Also close your ears to the propaganda that your leaders and establishment have been doing. Do not align yourself with militants. We have been dealing with militants in all forms, all across the nation for the past 60 years. Even now, in six months, ULFA has killed a lot of people in Assam. These have become routine for us and we have moved on. The country is too big to make a large scale impact. So it is better if your country wound up its militancy and support for it and spends that money on constructive goals.

While Pakistan needs to redefine its strategic threat, India needs to decide if its in their interest to have a normal relationship with Pakistan.”

India has always sought a normal relationship with every country. Pakistanis have to come forward to trust us. We are not going to do anything new. If you do not trust us, you will be the loser in the long run.

 

“Dawn says the Americans are offering Pakistan a new enemy as replacement : the militants..”

—OOPS! I spilled my tea..be right back..

Posted by anup | Report as abusive
 

I totally agree with the recommendations of the report. Every one knew a peaceful and friendly relations between India and Pakistan are in the favor of Pakistan, but these relationship needs to be on mutual respect basis. Since India and Pakistan, both are nuclear powers, so India should not expect any way of relationship other than equal partners. In my view, India Pakistan relationship should be based on same principles as India wishes to have with China, as India do believe itself an equal to China.

Now if we look at the bone of contention, we all know it from last 6 decades that major issue is Kashmir (rightly or wrongly), it became master peice of both militaries. Due to smaller GDP and size, most convenient and practical tactic for Pakistani military is gurrilla war, and for that they have to train and protect such forces. This was always there, and no one noticed it in rest of the world, because it was only bleeding India.

Number of these gurrilla forces increased during Afghan war, since US intellegence and military joined hands with Pakistan military to train such Gurrellas (mainly Afghans but also include arabs, african, central asians and pakistanis willing to fight in Afghanistan in a holly war – most of the world considered it since it was againts USSR at that time).

These forces (gurrellas, and in present world view terrorists) mostly protected and fought for the interest of Pakistan, so they were always in peace with Pakistan, but in recent years when US decided to eliminate majority of thems in the name of war against terrorism, and Pakistan was left with no option but to joins hands with US against these forces, now they turned against Pakistan too.

Unfortunately, Pakistan is easy target for them, since it is not easy to differentiate them from other Pakistanis and especially from Mujahideens (holly warriers), since to many pakistanis (who supported Afghan war) these people are known as the one who fought for Islam in Afghanistan, these includes ISI, which trained them along with US counter parts.

Therefore, this became a very complex issue and only way to eliminate terrorism from Pakistan and Pakistan support for these group, is to resolve Pakistan issues (main one is Kashmir) with India, and create environment of trust between India and paksitan, recognize Pakistan as a nuclear nation, and help creat conducive environment between Afghanistan and Pakistan. Then, there will be no reason left at government and military level to keep or train these fighters.

I will go a step further, and will help Pakistan and Afghanistan to bring these fighters under government control by establishing military wing of these fighters, such as FC, so that they could make living without fighting against government rather for the government.

 

“Can it work? India as no longer the existential threat to its very identity…”

—Will disintegrate Pakistan, would the Pakistani oligarchy run the risk??? even for America?

Posted by anup | Report as abusive
 

@umair
“You are much influenced by the media, do you really think Pakistan is falling apart and millitants are taking over? Pakistan is a huge and diverse country and any single isolated incident should not be the basis of your judgement”

It seems u are influenced by the media.give me one positive coming out of situtation in pakistan.i have reasons why i think pakistan has a threat..they are oviously agaisnt a motivated enemy..

Strengthening Pakistan’s weak civilian institutions, updating political parties rooted in feudal loyalties and recasting a military “fixated on yesterday’s enemy”, and stuck in the traditions of conventional warfare, are generational challenges.u cannot solve these things immediately.

large parts of the public, political class and the military have brushed off the obama’s plan, rebuffing the idea that the threat from al-Qaida and the Taliban, which Washington calls a common enemy, is not so urgent, . and that’s the attitude which you are showing..

President Asif Ali Zardari may be coming around but for the military, at least, India remains priority No. 1 and that’s what they are concentrating on, not worring abou the internal threat from taliban.

Fighting the insurgency is commonly seen in Pakistan as an American cause, not a Pakistani one..

i hope u have got the point..its not easy and pakistan definately doesn’t seems serious ENOUGH.

Posted by Raging bull | Report as abusive
 

Abid wrote:
“I will go a step further, and will help Pakistan and Afghanistan to bring these fighters under government control by establishing military wing of these fighters, such as FC, so that they could make living without fighting against government rather for the government.”

Yes Abid, it would make perfect sense to legitimize the existence of these fighters. After all they were raised, armed, trained, funded and indoctrinated by the CIA and US largely during the Afghan Jehad against the USSR. Merge them with the rangers and frontier corps, give them uniform, each one of them undertake a mandatory basic military training course and merge them within FC, Rangers/Pakistan Army and on other side with the ANA(Afghan National Army). The situation is complex and there are no quick fixes, complex problems need complex solutions, at first such an idea would seem ridiculous. But it needs to be given second thought.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Raging bull
The leadership of a country goes a long way reshaping the opinion of general public. When Pkaistan Army commanders tell us that India together with its nefarious plans in Afghanistan, its desire of strategic encirclement of Pakistan by pressure on eastern front and a anti-Pakistan hostile Kabul on the western front poses a far greater threat than the millitants. Then you tell me what is the solution. Poor Zardari doesnt have a clue what to do, he has a good business mind and wants to open up with India, his military commanders brief him the challenges India poses to Pakistan.
The question still is, can India sieze this opportunity? Can India offer a peace initiative, something like a peace conference, let one round take place in New Delhi and other one in Islamabad. Let both countrie’s leaders announce they want to start an era of friendship and cooperation. You cannot clap with one hand, we need sincere people on both sides of the border.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Excerpts from the report released by the Asia Society-
“Pakistan’s defense establishment is trained, equipped, and deployed almost exclusively for a potential conflict with India.”
(Breaking News!)

(The Obvious)
“The use of armed extremist groups for asymmetrical warfare to confront threats
from larger countries has created a military-extremist-industrial complex in Pakistan. The
November 2008 Mumbai attacks appear to have been carried out by organizations that
form a part of this complex.”

“the security establishment in Pakistan has an ambiguous attitude: It has always considered
both the Afghan Taliban and militant groups fighting in Kashmir to be strategic assets.
Transfixed by what it views as a far greater Indian threat, it has been reluctant to recognize
that the support structures and networks for these groups have also provided a safe haven for
al-Qaida and groups fighting the Pakistani state under the banner of the Pakistan Taliban
Movement (Tehrik-i Taliban-i Pakistan), led by Baitullah Mehsud.”
“Many militant groups that were originally active in Kashmir and based in southern Punjab have recently shifted their activities to FATA and increased their involvement in Afghanistan.”
(What else do they expect them to do? Grow pomegranates?)
–Followed by the usual Kashmir blah blah & ‘strategic’ rhetorics- “—the need for India and Pakistan to look beyond their traditional rivalries and to agree on a joint strategy to confront the extremists operating along the Pakistan–Afghanistan border and in their respective countries.”

Posted by anup | Report as abusive
 

Abid / Umair

“Merge them with the rangers and frontier corps,…”

-Duh! they are units of the same Pakistani Army,like peas in a pod. To view them as separate is an illusion.

Posted by anup | Report as abusive
 

Anup
“-Duh! they are units of the same Pakistani Army,like peas in a pod. To view them as separate is an illusion.”

yeah so since you cant do anything about it just suck it up!

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Umair: We all know that this is a complex mess (some knowingly deny the truth), and in one or other form indirectly talking the same thing as you said:

“it would make perfect sense to legitimize the existence of these fighters. After all they were raised, armed, trained, funded and indoctrinated by the CIA and US largely during the Afghan Jehad against the USSR.”

Take the example of NWFP government making an agreement with Mullah Umar. They did not make agreement because they love Taliban, since we all know ANP was always pro communists and always opposes fight against USSR, but they made agreement because there is no other way than accepting the truth.

Similarly, take statements of Pakistan and US government, talking of making peace with Talibans willing to give up weapons, but who will assure Taliban that US and Pakistani governments are sincere in what they are saying and will walk the talk. And most importantly, they have to come up with a plan (if there is any other than recruiting these taliban in military, since most have this skill only, and to assure them of a livelihood).

Hope world will understand the complexity of the issue and will handle it with urgency and with a practical approach.

I still believe no living being (even animals) will willingly choose death over life.

Posted by Abid | Report as abusive
 

Note to Indian will wishers:
India need to understand the severity and complexity of the issue. We all know how profoundly these fighters bled India in Kashmir and Khalistan. These fighters brought India to the knee, and first it was relieved by Benazir Bhutto when she gave Khalistan movement fighters to Rajiv Gandhi and then when 9-11 happened and existance of these fighters became a sore wound for US and allied armies, and Pakistan was left with no option but to restraint it open support for them.

Now if India think US will fight its war and will eliminate these people, then I will say with deep sadness that history will tell what grave mistake India is making. We all will see, US will reduce its expectations to a face saving level and will pull itself out of Afghanistan, as they are doing in Iraq, and since India share a LONG border with pakistan and Afghanistan through AJK, so it should remember an unstable Pakistan a nuclear state and Afghanistan are not in favor of India. Per Vajpai “you can choose your friends but not neighbors”. Such extremism can spell out of Pakistani and Afganistan borders.

Posted by Abid | Report as abusive
 

Guys: Check this link out and pay special attention to what Mr. Samit Ganguly and Mr. Aqil Shah are saying:
http://www.foreignaffairs.com/discussion s/roundtables/whats-the-problem-with-pak istan

Basically, Gangully is repeating Indian mentra without chewing on reality, while Aqil is saying the reality. Professor Cohen does re-itterated some facts but could not pass his bias despite his great and in depth understanding of south asia. e.g. he poses a good question to Gangully:
\”Stephen Cohen: What if they stop their ties to jihadi organizations that affect us but not to those that are pointed at India? Is this our problem or India\’s? And is al Qaeda a jihadi organization?\”

Posted by Abid | Report as abusive
 

Abid,
thanks for the link. I noted this:

“Stephen Cohen: Christine raises a critical issue, that Pakistan controls two vital choke points: access to Afghanistan from the south and east, and intelligence cooperation regarding jihadis who commute between Pakistan and other places (notably Europe). Past administrations in Washington were unwilling to forego Pakistani cooperation on security issues, something that gave Islamabad powerful cards. Will the Obama administration be able to develop alternative routes to Afghanistan that make it less dependent on Pakistani cooperation? Not anytime soon.”

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

First that lunatic Mehsud has to be rounded up and finished. Otherwise he is going to kill some key Americans. This will completely negate any efforts for peace in the region. The Americans will lose their minds and that is danger for Pakistan. You do not want their cruise missiles directed at Islamabad. Or they may take law into their own hands and start attacking the FATA and other lawless regions. This will create chaos and might split your military in half – those who surrender to the US and those who surrender to the Taliban. Any time the US has taken up arms inside a country, it only messed it up even more and nothing good emerged out of it. The situation might accelerate the splintering of Pakistan into tiny nations, making Kashmir issue irrelevant. And this is what Indians will be licking their lips on. Why not? We don’t want trouble makers in our vicinity. I do not wish for it. But I am reading a book by Ahmed Rashid on Central Asia titled “Jihad.” Great book. And it shows how Stalin redrew the map there and permanently damaged peace in the region. The British have done the same in order to keep the locals fighting each other. Pakistan, unfortunately, in its frenzy to destroy India, has brought the outcome upon itself. There is only one way out of this – Fight the Taliban and destroy them first. Then worry about India, Kashmir etc. Otherwise, the US will do it for you and your country might not survive in the bargain. Obama is a straight talker and he will do what he says.

 

“Shaun Gregory: It is increasingly clear to everyone except Pakistanis that Pakistan is no longer a regional equal of India, and nobody behaves any longer as though it is. Sumit is right: if Pakistan wants sensitivity to its legitimate interests, then it must acknowledge those of others, and that means recognizing India’s emergence as a great power and its legitimate concerns about China. Pakistan’s insistence on a bilateral calculus vis-à-vis India makes no sense anymore and is a patent obstacle to progress.”

This comes in the discussion quoted by Abid. I am not alone in my words. Others are saying the same. Pakistanis should stop equating their country with India. There is absolutely no comparison, other than the fact that Pakistan was carved out of India in 1947. India has to keep up with China which is similar in size and other factors. India’s nuclear explosions were not Pakistan specific, but for achieving neutrality with China. The same for missiles. After achieving that parity, India has not indulged in any asymmetric warfare with China regarding Tibet, Aksai Chin or Uighurs. Pakistan has been doing that with India. And it has bled itself in the bargain.

 

@In Pakistan nuclear power constitutes only 1.7% of total electricity supply. At this stage the supply of civilian nuclear technology could help Pakistan to meet its energy demand.
- Posted by Umair

–Umair, good joke!
US and France trust India with civil-nuclear technology for clean record, but not with Pakistan which indulges in wild Nuclear Orgy without minding its partners. They are worried about your several past nuclear partners.

All that policy of China/Pakistan to spread the nukes was with China’s vested interest, widely considered as their view of themselves as the last man standing if nuclear holocoust happens by one of these trading countries or anyone who gets hold of the stuff. Pakistan’s interest as selling to Islamic countries is obvious–the Islamic bomb as the name says.

Communist/Islamic coaltion nuclear bomb against West and now you are asking the US for nuclear technology for your electricity supply. Rule out West on this, not just US.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

@Yes Abid, it would make perfect sense to legitimize the existence of these fighters. After all they were raised, armed, trained, funded and indoctrinated by the CIA and US largely during the Afghan Jehad against the USSR. Merge them with the rangers and frontier corps, give them uniform, each one of them undertake a mandatory basic military training course and merge them within FC, Rangers/Pakistan Army and on other side with the ANA(Afghan National Army).”
- Posted by Umair

-Abid/Umair, after your do that, make sure you do not invite them over. not especially all that gang with Taliban–their favorite past time is flogging, and asked the flogged to tell the reason. They pay more attention to women.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

While the world is focused on Pakistan, one should not take their eyes off China. I get the feeling China is watching the entire development in the region with interest. It is made up of as many emotional fools as Pakistan has, who want to show off their macho power to the rest of the world. They are watching the following:

1. A weakening US economy and slow recovery.
2. Situation getting out of control in Afghanistan / Pakistan.

Any failure in this region will make them think that the US has gone weak. They may think that Obama’s call for reducing and eliminating nuclear weapons as a sign of weakness. Until now the Americans always talked from a position of strength.

If the US showed any gains in the region, China will try to neutralize it. So Pakistan might look to China for help this time as the US starts pushing them to a corner. If the American attempts begin to fail as a result of this, China is immature enough to move in for the kill. They may turn North Korea loose first. The US, broke on one side and engaged in Pakistan on the other side, might find it hard to manage both sides. They might be forced to sound a quick retreat from Pakistan.
Or if the US manages to stay put, China might walk into Taiwan. The US is already weakened by the war efforts in Iraq and Pakistan and financial break down, might try to reassert itself by engaging in a much larger war with China.

A war will suit China’s needs because their economy is in shambles as well. 20 million people already had to leave big cities for lack of work. Autocratic regimes seek war whenever they have no solutions to their economic problems.

Pakistan’s only escape route is China and China is itching to reduce American power in the world. They are already demanding an international currency against the US dollar.

The world is about to enter an interesting stage. India has to lose a lot in this scenario. I hope the idiots who make up the BJP or the Samajwadi clowns do not come to power this time. I prefer Congress led alliance at this situation for the next 5 years.

 

@Mauryan

While you and I may have our ideological differences, I think we both agree on the end result – the “Big Picture”, if you will. China is playing the sleepy-eyed giant at the moment. They always have an opinion in monetary matters, but when it comes to international cooperation, they urge “restraint” (read as ‘appeasement’). Why? Because they don’t want to open the “human rights” can of worms. It would lead to change from within, and that is something the Chinese Communist party cannot afford. As many analyst have said, they are in this for the long haul. Isn’t it odd that while they continue to restrict the rights of their citizens and bleach away any cultural differences, they are all-of-a-sudden showing “religious harmony” with the Buddhists, which are suddenly led by arse-kissing ‘priests’? They are going to take Taiwan without a shot being fired by this method, I believe. Also, they love to beg off from any role in helping the international community with the “I am so poor, ask America” excuse. Check out the following article for more on this “we are rich/poor nation” approach to diplomacy:

http://uk.reuters.com/article/burningIss ues/idUKTRE53501820090406

Now, with that being said, I also believe there is only one way to force China to show its hand without actually provoking them: extremely warm relations between India and America. The American public is quickly becoming infatuated with all things India, and the politicians will play this to the hilt. India has the need for development, and us Americans want a friend, not just a plastic pump like China (we are tired of just having Europe/Japan to talk to and actually trust). Its obvious from reading US news that while Americans still aren’t comfortable with our relationship with China, we aren’t exactly refusing to buy their products – yet. We know they make unsafe crap, but we don’t have many alternatives as the cost of Japanese/Korean goods starts to equal that of domestic goods. India has the workforce and the hunger for growth. Indo-American ties will also help Russian-American “ties” (sorry, but its gonna be a long time before we sit around a camp fire with Russia and sing folk songs). All of this will drive the Communist party in China bat-$#!t crazy, and then they will have to modernize their government, or be backed into a corner. I think this is why successive American adminstrations are trying so hard to get Pakistan to stay in “the fold”. They see the two publics of US and India forming ties stronger than any government agreements through the Hollywood/Bollywood exchange,etc., and they want Pakistan fully on board before the $@#% hits the fan with China! This may sound far-fetched, but I look at it from this standpoint: “Anything Richard Nixon did, should be undone”. Right now we just got rid of Nixon-2.0(Cheney, cause Bush was just a baffoon), and are currently under Jimmy Carter-2.0(Obama). Next is Reagan-2.0, and that spells trouble for Communism.

Peace.

Posted by Patrick | Report as abusive
 

Abid

“India need to understand the severity and complexity of the issue.”
—It does & need no advice on it & is ‘capable’ of fighting it’s own battles & emerge victorious.

“so it should remember an unstable Pakistan a nuclear state and Afghanistan are not in favor of India.”
—On the contrary – it is most favourable to India. Such extremism will spell doom only to Pakistan eventually.

\”Stephen Cohen: What if they stop their ties to jihadi organizations that affect us but not to those that are pointed at India? Is this our problem or India\’s? And is al Qaeda a jihadi organization?\”

—Well, firstly, even though he’s a Pak sympathizer,he endorses & legitimizes India’s conclusion that ‘they’ have ties with jihadi org. of all hue & colors, & so do you by ‘quoting’ him.
Secondly the west has always turned a blind-eye towards the terrorists org. aimed at India, the alms & arms that the US supplies to Pakistan are clandestinely gifted to assist in their ‘proxy war’ against India, the ample lip-service after 26/11 & black-mailing India on the ‘K’ word – the ‘Mili’blunder’ from UK – are testimony to the fact. Indian’s are no longer a deluded lot & know that nothing short of disintegration of Pakistan will bring peace to this region.
Incase you’ve overlooked this in my previous post-
“Many militant groups that were originally active in Kashmir and based in southern Punjab have recently shifted their activities to FATA and increased their involvement in Afghanistan.” (The US can have them too..lol)
(What else do they expect them to do? Grow pomegranates?)

Posted by anup | Report as abusive
 

The Pakistani joke, “all countries have armies, but here, an army has a country.”

Posted by anup | Report as abusive
 

Abid wrote:
Now if India think US will fight its war and will eliminate these people, then I will say with deep sadness that history will tell what grave mistake India is making.

Abid, what f**king war will America fighting for India?

Abid wrote:
so it should remember an unstable Pakistan a nuclear state and Afghanistan are not in favor of India.

No sh*t! Could all Pakistanis (Umair and Abid) please stop trying their hardest to sould like pathetic apologists.

The only thing India is doing in Afghanistan is reconstruction because India got most of the contracts much to Pakistan’s annoyance. GOT IT!!!

The idea of an encirclement is a load of bull!! If that was the case then Indian soldiers would be stationed in Afghanistan.

Umair wrote:
The question still is, can India sieze this opportunity? Can India offer a peace initiative.

So Umair-ji, India is reconstructing Afghanistan’s infastructure and YOU see this ans an encirclement of Pakistan. Do you have any TANGIBLE proof of terrorist attacks from Indians coming from Afghanistan?

You Pakis have got some nerve to drag India into issues that have arisen from YOUR soil alone.

YOU created the Taliban and NOT the CIA in order to nurture YOUR proxy wars against India. Now that they have turned against Pakistan, you expect India to offer a peace initiative.

REAP WHAT YOU SOW!!!!

Posted by bulletfish | Report as abusive
 

Extracts from BBC news, article: Pakistan ‘battling for survival’ (7th April 2009).

“Pakistan is fighting a battle of its own survival,” said Zardari.

-HELP!!!

“Pakistan… needs unconditional support by the international community in the fields of education, health, training and provision of equipment for fighting terrorism.”

-GIVE ME ALL THE MONEY AND MILITARY EQUIPMENT AND I WILL SEE WHAT I CAN DO TO MAKE ALL THE TERRORISM GO AWAY WITH NEGOTIATIONS. WE WILL TEST THESE NEW TOYS AGAINST INDIA TO PULL THEM INTO OUR MESS.

In a press conference on Tuesday, both nations spoke of the need for “trust”. “We can only work together if we respect each other and trust each other.”

-USA: I don’t trust these Pakis. I give then billions and they nogotiate with the Taliban instead of fighting them.
-PAKISTAN: I don’t trust these Yanks. They give us billions and expect us to kill fellow Muslims who in turn are terrorizing Pakistan.

Adm Mullen did not respond directly when asked why the US would not simply hand over the drones to Pakistan but said the US was eager to share counter-insurgency techniques.

-Adm Mullen knows that Pakistan will ABUSE these drones for use against India because Pakistan still considers India the number one enemy. Pakistan will also eagerly share the drone technology with China.

Mr Obama has pledged substantial economic assistance for Pakistan – more than $1bn annually over the next five years – but the money will depend on the army’s performance against the Taleban and al-Qaeda.

-You want aid, Pakistan? Then get off your arse and earn it!! Fight the Taliban that is making you fight for your own survival!! Remember the words of Gilani, “This is not Charlie Wilson’s war, but Benazir Bhutto’s war.”

-IT IS CERTAINLY NOT INDIA’S WAR EITHER!!!

-Mr Holbrooke is the joint US envoy for Pakistan and Afghanistan. India is not included.

Posted by bulletfish | Report as abusive
 

hi abid/ umair/ anup/ bulletfish/raging bull…etc

can any one of you explain me the advantage(s) of being a “recognized” nuclear power..?

Posted by rony | Report as abusive
 

rony
(depends where you coming from mentally while posing this query.. but anyways the ground reality is that….)
—being a “recognized” nuclear power..means you are no longer treated as a pariah & are freed from technology & economic sanctions, in short you are now accepted as a force worthy to be reckoned..on equal terms.

Posted by anup | Report as abusive
 

am from india, raised in hyderabad, born in kottayam kerala, graduated in pune, working in bang….

am really on the look out for these kinda blogs, and other stuff that give unbiased glimpses of life on the other side of the border, i am inclined to think that most of wat we see on tv about pak might be selective and exaggerated.

as for this blog… you’ll have to admire the predicament of all the players involved…
1. an india who wants to grow out and get de-hyphenated from pak.
2.a pakistan who simply doesn’t want that… for a myraid of reasons.
3.and an america who doesn’t want to admit the mistakes of prev presidents,policy advisors etc [the list, i guess starts with nixon choosing to ally pak]

Posted by rony | Report as abusive
 

@anup,
and thanks for the clarification about the nukes i guess to the pakistanis, their nukes mean a lot to them…

Posted by rony | Report as abusive
 

rony
“their nukes mean a lot to them…”
—& to the terrorists & to the west & to china…

“[the list, i guess starts with nixon choosing to ally pak]”

—Well on India’s part, being a passive partner in the cold war, ignoring the sound advices from the likes of C. Rajagopalachari & Shastri & to top it with poor diplomacy, which to some extent still is the bane of India.

Posted by anup | Report as abusive
 

Rony:
Recognition of nuke along with many other realities mean accepting the truth and giving up hypocracy. We all knew and have seen that both India and pakistan tested nuke, but west will accept one because of economic interest and will not recognize other because of religion bias. This is not just the case with nuke, which is just one example, but look at many other things such as Isreal-Palestine (now no one care for it, but when it comes to Bosnia vs Yogusylvia then it is different, when it comes to Iraq invasion of Kuwait then it is different etc). Similarly, when these so called terrorists were fighting against USSR during Afgan war and against India in Kashmir, then they were holly warriers, but now after september 11 they became common enemies and terrorists. Similarly, if we do soul searching we could accept the truth and reality about who created Saddam and who created Osama, but when interests changes, these all became bad people.

Now if Osama is fighting against USSR and Saddam is fighting against Iran, then they are right as they are fighting for liberation from occupiers, but when they fight against others to liberate Iraq, Afganistan, Palestine and Saudi Arabia from the influence of occupiers then they became terrorists since occupiers are different than Russia, Iran and Iraq. This is same hypocracy as accepting India nuke but not Pakistan.

We all blame and condemn ISI and Pakistan military for creation and aiding these organizations, but where were we when US was aiding most of the same Mujahideens. When you create someone and teach them a life style either live with it or teach them and aid them to live a better life style than what you already taught them. So blame should be equally shared by all parties involved in Afgan war.

Now it is Pakistan bad luck for being in close proximity to Afganistan with no proper border (with limited resources, lack of high tech equipments and trecherous mountains between Pakistan and Afganistan, plus millions of Afgan refugees who already acquired Pakistani NID and passports through bribe from corrupt civilian government officials) it is easy for pakistan to stop them both because of practicality reason (since US can not stop illegal immigrants from Mexico and Canada, despite all the might and technology in the world, and EU can’t stop illegal immigrants either) and moral reason since these are the same people Pakistan created for Afgan war along with its allied.

So in these situation, it is not fair to blame someone and expect short term solutions, especially if you are India. Short term solutions may work for US, as it will allow them to get out of Afganistan, as they did at the end of USSR war without helping rebuild afganistan, but in few years it will be a bigger mess and may not be good for the region including India, Iran and Central Asia.

Posted by Abid | Report as abusive
 

This should be posed here.

Pakistan has got to realize that the bigger threat is the Taliban and it’s fundamentalist views. However, in seeking an alliance with Pakistan against terrorists, America is courting a Muslim nation whose military is fixated on India.

I have a feeling that THIS is what the Pakistani Elite want:
USA to help solve the Kashmir problem. For USA to put pressure on India to leave Kashmir, then Pakistanis would gladly help USA against Taleban.

Its more like a typical tendency to link every problem in the world to the Kashmir issue. It sounds like this: if you don’t help Pakistan in Kashmir we will keep hurting ourselves and may even shoot ourselves in head. So, the USA should help Pakistan gain Kashmir when the same groups it used against India are now attacking Pakistan.

Yet Pakistan and the Taliban have made themselves the greatest existential threat to the United States, NATO, Europe and the world at large.

Posted by bulletfish | Report as abusive
 

With due respect, we are not arguing that killing of innocent people (either victims of suicide bombs, or drone attacks or bombs dropped by B-2) is right, we do condemn and do wish if Pakistani, Afgans, Iraqi, Palestinians could live a safe, prosperous and peaceful life just like any one in US, China or India. Now you will say why do not they choose peace over war and bombing, but unfortunately it is not their choice rather it is imposed on them.

When brits left ME they created Isreal which was not there and later Isreal went to get even more land from neighbors and now if we blame Palestenians then I can not say anything.

US was the one who attacked Iraq without having any WMD or role in 9/11. USSR was the one invaded Afganistan, otherwise Afganistan was the most peaceful nation in the region. Brits violated principles of partitions and left muslim majority state in India and then Nehru was the one who took it to UN and didn’t resolve it. So we can not blame the miseries solely on Palestenians, Iraqis, Afganies and Pakistanis, since their only fault is they stand up for their rights.

Posted by Abid | Report as abusive
 

Abid writes: “their only fault is they stand up for their rights.”

Pakistan lost its moral right to cry for others’ rights after East Pakistan genocide. Surely there are very good Pakistanis like Asma Jehangir who can stand up for rights. But those who are demanding rights for the Kashmiris are not these moderates, but gun toting and blood thirsty terrorists and their supporters in the Pakistani military and political establishment. This is the same department that engaged in genocide inside East Pakistan. So when the wolf cries for the sheep, no one trusts it. Its ulterior motives are obvious.

Pakistan’s interest in Kashmir is only for one reason – to get at India. If they had taken Kashmir in 1947, even then that attitude would not have died down. Pakistan will still be where it is today. The Kashmir issue is now an excuse to engage India. If it was not Kashmir, it would be something else – rights for Muslim brothers inside India. The ISI would have set up cells inside Indian Muslim population that would instigate violence and exploit the retaliation to keep India bled. So the agenda is the same.

Pakistanis talk of Palestenian rights. But they do not care for Kurdish people when Turkey or Iraq slaughters them periodically to quell any uprising. It is alright for Muslim to engage another Muslim. It becomes a rights issue if non-Muslim gets involved. Wherever there are Muslims they set about asserting their rights. In some areas in France, traffic comes to a halt as Algerian Muslims use the streets for prayer. In Mumbai the same thing happened and the Shiv Sena staged “Maha Arti” to counter it. Then they are blamed as Muslim baiters. Shiv Sena is not a welfare organization, but Muslim intolerance triggers counter organizations of that kind everywhere. In Malaysia, the Bhumi Putra movement turned viciously against Chinese Christians and Indian immigrants.

In another 50 years, UK, France etc will become Dar Ul Islam as the Muslim population there is swelling. It is all right with me. But it will be interesting when the white Christians begin to fight for their rights at that time.

 

Patrick,

Sorry. Your posting got buried by others posts. Coming to China – The autocracy in China is one of the most ruthless in the world. Look at the countries that it supports – Burma, North Korea, Pakistan, Vietnam, Cambodia – all backward swamps and China intends keeping them that way. Now it is gaining foothold in Africa and I can bet they would leach these countries bare soon. China’s appetite is resulting in massive deforestation in Amazon. Its environmental pollution is on the verge of disaster. Read a book called, “The empire of lies.” I forgot the author’s name. It has denied rights to its own people and if it becomes a super power, the same will happen to others who depend on it.

The US is paying a price for short sighted policies across the globe. Nixon was a crook and he courted China to get at the USSR, without realizing the long term repercussions. Nixon is long gone and now China is beginning to flex its muscles slowly. This might be the beginning of the end of American “empire.” In a general sense, the American empire was benevolent to most of the world. The Chinese empire will bring more devastation.

 

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