India not the enemy, U.S. tells Pakistan

April 6, 2009

Pakistan’s Dawn newspaper reports from Washington that the United States is seeking fundamental change in Pakistan: it wants Pakistan, presumably the military most of all,  to stop thinking of India as the enemy.

And linked with this, it wants Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence, accused of sponsoring militant groups to advance its security interests in the region, brought under effective civilian control.

Dawn says the Americans are offering Pakistan a new enemy as replacement : the militants operating along the border with Afghanistan who are increasingly striking deeper within Pakistan.

On Sunday a suicide bomber struck in a religious centre in Punjab kiling 22 people, continuing an expansion of the militant campaign into the heartland which seems to have gathered momentum over the past month.

Can it work? India as no longer the existential threat to its very identity as many in Pakistan believe?

U.S. envoy to Afghanistan and Pakistan Richard Holbrooke has begun a fresh trip to the region  this week that will also take him to New Delhi, and a report released by the Asia Society just before that trip suggests ways through which America can begin reshaping perceptions in Pakistan so that it feels less threatened by its bigger neighbour.

Holbrooke and National Security Adviser General James Jones were part of the task force that worked on the report “Back from the Brink: A strategy for stabilising Afghanistan and Pakistan” before they stepped down following their appointment in the Obama administration. A PDF of the report is here.

Very broadly it calls for addressing Pakistan’s security concerns on Afghanistan, Kashmir and nuclear weapons so that “it no longer requires the use of covertly supported guerrilla forces against neighbours.” 

The recommendations of the task force are: support dialogue between India and Paklstan so that they find a lasting solution to Kashmir, address Afghan-Pakistan disputes so that Afghanistan recognizes the Durand Line as the border between the two countries, and finally begin a dialogue with Pakistan over its nuclear  programme including perhaps recognising the reality of  its nuclear weapons.

But what about the mood over the border in India? Since the attacks in Mumbai blamed on the Pakistan-based Lashkar-e-Taiba, India has set its face against a resumption of dialogue that was in any case making fitful progress.

It is now in election mode, and if you follow the debate the mood has clearly hardened with the Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party promising a more muscular Pakistan policy.

But by making Pakistan the overarching element of its security strategy and expecting India to play its part, is the United States  running the risk of ignoring the interests of New Delhi which not long ago was being celebrated as a strategic partner? Is it back to re-hyphenating india and Pakistan, as an Indian analyst here suggests?

[Reuters photo of protest in Lahore against a suicide bombing and U.S. envoy Richard Holbrooke with Afghan President Hamid Karzai]

157 comments

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Oh Boy! Here we go again! Solve this, that and the other then we will all hold hands and skip and dance in peaceful harmony!

BULLSH*T!

Pakistan made a peace deal with the Taliban “within its own sovereign territory” and there have still been attacks in Pakistan.

I hate seeing India dragged into the Af-Pak situation.

(1) Pakistan created the Taliban (FACT).
(2) It was created to control Afghanistan (FACT).
(3) Taliban in Afghanistan hosted Al-Queda and Osama bin Ladin (FACT).
(4) Osama bin Ladin and his cohorts bombed the US Embassies in Africa (FACT).
(5) Osama bin Ladin and his cohorts planned and executed the 11/09/2001 attacks on the USA (FACT).
(6) USA tells Pakistan that they are either with them or against them (FACT).

I do not see India in any of this.

Posted by bulletfish | Report as abusive

Lets face the reality, ISI and Pakistan Army will never change their perception vis-a-vis India unless and untill Pakistan is recognized as a nuclear power and is treated on equal basis with India. India was offered civilian nuclear technology and wider recognition, its about time Pakistan is also recognized equally. Unless Pakistan’s regional interests are recognized and security concerns addressed, there is no chance ISI ceding its leverage to interior ministry, and Pakistan Army reporting to the civilian government.
The question remain, why is the US trying so hard to change India’s perception? where are the Indians? why the Indians are not reaching out to Pakistan and saying, hey look lets press the reset button in our relations and start afresh. Unless India itself is not sincere, India will remain enemy no.1 for Pakistan and millitants will continue to be a secondary threat. While Pakistan needs to redefine its strategic threat, India needs to decide if its in their interest to have a normal relationship with Pakistan.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Taliban blamed for suicide attack on Pakistan mosque.

-Man challenged by security guards at mosque in Chakwal blows himself up, killing at least 22 people. (Guaridan, 5 April 2009).

Come on! Lets hear it now, don’t be shy! RAW, Mossad, Hindu-Zionist conspiracy, RAW, Mossad, Hindu-Zionist conspiracy, RAW, Mossad, Hindu-Zionist conspiracy, RAW, Mossad, Hindu-Zionist conspiracy, RAW, Mossad, Hindu-Zionist conspiracy, RAW, Mossad, Hindu-Zionist conspiracy, RAW, Mossad, Hindu-Zionist conspiracy, RAW, Mossad, Hindu-Zionist conspiracy, RAW, Mossad, Hindu-Zionist conspiracy, RAW, Mossad, Hindu-Zionist conspiracy, RAW, Mossad, Hindu-Zionist conspiracy, RAW, Mossad, Hindu-Zionist conspiracy, RAW, Mossad, Hindu-Zionist conspiracy, RAW, Mossad, Hindu-Zionist conspiracy, RAW, Mossad, Hindu-Zionist conspiracy, RAW, Mossad, Hindu-Zionist conspiracy, RAW, Mossad, Hindu-Zionist conspiracy…etc.

Posted by bulletfish | Report as abusive

India was offered civilian nuclear technology and wider recognition, its about time Pakistan is also recognized equally.

Yes, Umair, India was offered the nuclear technology. Pakistan was ‘Johnny-come-lately’ boy wanting the same deal. Why the hell should Pakistan be treated the same as India when Pakistan has created and harboured the same terrorists and Taliban that are attacking it?

FYI, Pakistan is recognised as a nuclear power with a weak govt.

India does want a normal relationship with Pakistan, but Pakistan has to put its own house in order. What is the point of considering the terrorists destroying your country second to India? I can imagine the Taliban flogging your wife and her screaming, “No problem, India is enemy number 1!!!”

What has India got to be sincere about to Pakistan? What the hell has India done to Pakistan recently? Nothing!!!!

Posted by bulletfish | Report as abusive

bulletfish
“Why the hell should Pakistan be treated the same as India ”

Ok fine, then let the ISI and Pakistan Army continue with their long term strategic goals. Next time you dont complain then, The ISI doesnt report to Interior ministry and when GHQ plans any offensive military operation, the Prime Minister House is kept out of loop. I guess this is fair game.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Pakistan a reluctant partner in war on terror; US media

http://www.geo.tv/4-6-2009/39188.htm
Even before the insurgency has been fully engaged, however, many Pakistanis have concluded that reaching an accommodation with the militants is preferable to fighting them. Some, including mid-ranking soldiers, choose to see the militants not as the enemy, but as fellow Muslims who are deserving of greater sympathy than are the American aims.

It is problematic whether the backing of Mr. Zardari, and the Obama’s administration’s promise of $1.5 billion in aid for each of the next five years, can change the mood in the country, said former interior minister, Aftab Ahmad Sherpao.

Fighting the insurgency is commonly seen in Pakistan as an American cause, not a Pakistani one, he said.

The distrust has been heightened by charges from American officials, including General Petraeus and Mr. Holbrooke, that Pakistan’s spy agency is still supporting militants who pour over the border to fight American troops in Afghanistan.

A former director general of the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), Lt. Gen. Javed Ashraf, said the American opinions, long held but now publicly stated, did not augur well. A spokesman for the Pakistani military called them “baseless” and part of a “malicious campaign.”

“You can’t start a successful operation with a trust deficit,” General Ashraf said.

“Predator strikes are not a strategy, not even part of a strategy,” former army chief of staff and ambassador to Washington, Gen. Jehangir Karamat, said. “They are tactical actions to ratchet up body counts.”

According to the paper, the Americans have been stingy on even the more basic tools for guerrilla warfare, like helicopter gunships and night-vision goggles, which Pakistan has requested for the past three years, Pakistani military officials say. There are still doubts that Washington will deliver such equipment speedily, they say.

Then there is India. Its growing presence in Afghanistan, the building of roads; the opening since 2001 of two consulates in two cities close to Pakistan, makes Pakistan believe it is being encircled, said Ishaq Khan Khakwani, former senator from the Pakistan Muslim League-Q.

The deep questioning about why the Pakistani Army should fight the Taliban reaches well down into the ranks of the soldiers and their families. Dissent on that goal has become increasingly prevalent among rank-and-file soldiers, and even in the officer corps, said Dr. Riffat Hussain, a professor of international relations at Quaid-e-Azam University Islamabad.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

bulletfish
did you read above, the question in Pakistan is why should Pakistan Army fight the Taliban? officer corps and among rank and file soldiers the enemy is the same for now, India.
US is trying hard, bribe worth $1.5 bn per year, threats, drone attacks. Lets see what it takes to get Pakistan change its perception of India?

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Umair:
“Lets face the reality, ISI and Pakistan Army will never change their perception vis-a-vis India unless and untill Pakistan is recognized as a nuclear power and is treated on equal basis with India. India was offered civilian nuclear technology and wider recognition, its about time Pakistan is also recognized equally.”

Besharam !!

You were not offered civilian nuclear technology because of your BAD track record. You had done the proliferation and threatened India a thousand times of nuclear attack.

Everyone fears that your nuclear weapons will fell into hands of terrorists one day.

World is thinking of snatching your nukes, let alone the new technology transfer.

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive

@umair says “unless and untill Pakistan is recognized as a nuclear power and is treated on equal basis with India. India was offered civilian nuclear technology and wider recognition, its about time Pakistan is also recognized equally”

umair, the world communnity is already getting jitters about A.Q. khan and the internal turmoil in pakistan..the situtation is really bad… do u really think the world should give the civil neuclear technology and put the world at risk..

the world doesnt trust ur govt..as its not powerful enough and is really corrupt and incompetant..there is army ,ISI and now taliban….and yes the good and the bad one as u pakistanis says..

well ironically, i see only one result….Pakistan will not be able to fight taliban..they are so divided.. taliban will take over pakistan ,now before that happens west has to ensure that they take care of the n-bombs.. and then NATO from west and indian forces from the eastern side will rout taliban and defeat it..

And then to stablise the situtation , Pakistan will be divided into 4-5 countries .. well no matter what u say but that’s where pakistan is heading to …who will stop this ….nobody… West is dependent too much on pakistan to fight this war and they dont understand that the pak govt is too weak and incompetent.

Posted by Raging bull | Report as abusive

Punjabiyaar
World is sure thinking of snatching our nukes, the US even has a special task force of 3000 marines on standby in Afghanistan along with their naval fleet to carry out such an operation.
The only problem: they cannot pinpoint the location of storage sites of the war heads and are not sure how Pakistan will respond to such an attempt, it is fraught with great risks and danger. So world can keep on thinking of snatching Pakistan’s nukes because so far they can only think. We will only worry when the world stops thinking and acts to snatch our nukes.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Raging bull:
“well ironically, i see only one result….Pakistan will not be able to fight taliban..they are so divided.. taliban will take over pakistan ,now before that happens west has to ensure that they take care of the n-bombs.. and then NATO from west and indian forces from the eastern side will rout taliban and defeat it.. ”

history shows Pakistan’s ability to fight multiprong warfare in tandem, east or west Pakistan will never be an easy game. Pakistan’s military strategists are well aware of the threat of strategic encirclement of Pakistan and are putting in place counter measures.

As of today, the prime minister met with entire civilian leadership of the four provinces in ISlamabad, while the Army chief presided over the formation commanders meeting in Rawalpindi to review the prevailing the current regional situation. No one should doubt Pakistan’s unity, no one should doubt Pakistan’s ability to face and eliminate challenges to its security.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Umair,

I will agree with Punjabiyaar on this.
India and Pakistan have behaved differently and hence could not be treated equally. World still doesn’t know the whole truth behing the AQ saga. He was put in “house arrest” by Mushi and now he is walking free in Pakistan.

Posted by chirkut | Report as abusive

“history shows Pakistan’s ability to fight multiprong warfare in tandem, east or west Pakistan will never be an easy game. Pakistan’s military strategists are well aware of the threat of strategic encirclement of Pakistan and are putting in place counter measures”

yeah we know the capability of pakistan military in 1965 and 1971 wars so let me tell u they have a reputation of loosers..taliban will take over pakistan and u that’s very much possible they are not very far away from islamabad ..

“As of today, the prime minister met with entire civilian leadership of the four provinces in ISlamabad, while the Army chief presided over the formation commanders meeting in Rawalpindi to review the prevailing the current regional situation. No one should doubt Pakistan’s unity, no one should doubt Pakistan’s ability to face and eliminate challenges to its security.”

nobody should doubt !!! u have said it urself its an american war which u r fighting.. now this very attitude will keep u divided… u dont realise how people with guns even if they are islamic soldiers can be a threat to freedom, the very expression of democracy ..

lets hope the govt has got some backbone otherwise start growing a beard and wearing clothes acc to islamic code ..because there is not much time left for the dream of pakistan..

Well can u really undermine their progress..u have to realise that taliban is a potential threat..fata then waziristan then swat…bomb blasts everywhere in major cities.. hope ur govt could take some steps because we definately dont want any pakistani refugees in our side..

Posted by Raging bull | Report as abusive

Raging bull
You are much influenced by the media, do you really think Pakistan is falling apart and millitants are taking over? Pakistan is a huge and diverse country and any single isolated incident should not be the basis of your judgement.
Most of all Raging bull and chirkut regarding A.Q Khan and nuclear proliferation, the first notable thing is Pakistan is not a signatory to NPT(Nuclear non-Proliferation Treaty) just like India and Israel.
Secondly, the US also transfered sensitive technology to Britain through 1958 US-UK mutual Defence Agreement. So Pakistan cannot be specifically singled out to be accused of nuclear proliferation. India itself has always been against the NPT and termed it as in favour of nuclear powers.

In 1992 when Benazir Bhutto was Prime Minister she visited China and North Korea. Pakistan was interested to acquire missile technology and North Korea is believed to have recieved centrifuge and uranium enrichment technology from Pakistan including ultra-high speed centrifuges.

My question, Pakistan was always subjected to sanctions, but did that stop Pakistan from developing nuclear and missile technology?

In Pakistan nuclear power constitutes only 1.7% of total electricity supply. At this stage the supply of civilian nuclear technology could help Pakistan to meet its energy demand.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Punjabiyaar
@Umair,

Umair says: “World is sure thinking of snatching our nukes, the US even has a special task force of 3000 marines on standby in Afghanistan along with their naval fleet to carry out such an operation.
The only problem: they cannot pinpoint the location of storage sites of the war heads and are not sure how Pakistan will respond to such an attempt, it is fraught with great risks and danger. So world can keep on thinking of snatching Pakistan’s nukes because so far they can only think. We will only worry when the world stops thinking and acts to snatch our nukes.”

Response:

Don’t kid yourself little man. Those nukes will one day be sitting on an American Miiltary Base, then one day a museum in the Aerospace Museum in Delhi.

Pakistan can still save itself if it mends its ways.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

@Mauryan, Sanjeev, Bloggers,

The U.S. tells Pakistan to quit using Terrorist Jihadi Proxy Armies as instruments of Foreign Policy, please read.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/News  /PoliticsNation/Pakistan-uses-militant- groups-as-foreign-policy-instrument/arti cleshow/4353151.cms

@Umair, this is the dirty tactics, of terrorism that the world is getting so sick of. Pakistan has no more credibility, even China is not going to help Pakistan any more in crisis.

It is time to tighten the screws and crack Pakistan’s skull.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

Umair writes: “ISI and Pakistan Army will never change their perception vis-a-vis India”

Expecting armies and intelligence agencies to change perception is foolish. Army needs an enemy to target. Intelligence units feed into that mind set. ISI can target India, Afghanistan, Kyrgystan, Uzbekistan, Iran and every country in the vicinity as potential targets and live in a state of paranoia. But these things cost BIG money. The logistics of organizing everything from weapons, ammunition, training, planning etc for a war, whether it is direct or indirect, costs A LOT OF MONEY. This is where your country has bled itself to near death. And they have not allowed any civilian government to take root because they have begun to believe that they are masters, not just of your country, but also of Afghanistan and India. That can only be changed when the ISI is dismantled completely. Indians would love to see that, but will not do it. So rest easy.

“unless and untill Pakistan is recognized as a nuclear power and is treated on equal basis with India.”

Pakistan is definitely recognized as a nuclear power, but at par with North Korea, Iran etc., an IRRESPONSIBLE one. The Indians did nothing about it. It is the action of your own people like AQ Khan.

Even if Pakistanis imagine themselves at par with India, the reality is very different. India is enormous in many ways – size, population, economy, infrastructure etc. The world generally reaches out to those countries on equal terms when it sees progress and potential for growth. India has been doing that for a while and hence it is respected in the international circles. Pakistan looks expendable in the eyes of the world powers. If this image needs to change, then Pakistan has to reduce its belligerence and show progress in many fronts that include secularism, education, sound economy etc.. Instead, it has become a “HOT BED” of terrorism. Look at any newspaper in the Western world. This term is used often. To change that, your country has to work honestly.

“India was offered civilian nuclear technology and wider recognition, its about time Pakistan is also recognized equally.”

Holding a gun does not give equal status to a crook and someone who can exercise responsibility. Countries are working on how to get rid off the nuclear weapons from dangerous zones in this world first. Your country unfortunately, fits in that zone.

“Unless Pakistan’s regional interests are recognized and security concerns addressed, there is no chance ISI ceding its leverage to interior ministry, and Pakistan Army reporting to the civilian government.”

Like it or not, the Americans can arm twist Pakistan to do whatever they want. So prepare your mind towards it.

“The question remain, why is the US trying so hard to change India’s perception?”

Because Pakistanis have been wrong and their wrong attitude has led to today’s situation. If Pakistan has to remain as a nation with solid foundations, the first thing to change is the wrong perception about India. WE ARE NOT YOUR ENEMIES. I have said that many times and many Indians will agree to that. We want peace and progress. Your terrorist clans are not allowing us to progress and have begun to take control of your entire country. ISI is not looked at with respect outside of Pakistan. It is considered as a rogue organization that is controlling a country.

“where are the Indians? why the Indians are not reaching out to Pakistan and saying, hey look lets press the reset button in our relations and start afresh.”

We did that in 1972. Bhutto made a promise that the LoC will be respected and all was settled. But look at the situation now.

In 1999 our Prime Minister and your Prime Minister were working towards a peace treaty. And your beloved Musharraf ignored everything and launched the Kargil offensive that derailed everything.

Man Mohan Singh and even Musharraf came close to a settlement. Everything was going fine when the Mumbai attacks happened. And the way the Zardari government acted in the aftermath in denial, erased whatever little trust Indians had on Pakistani establishment.

So the ball is in Pakistan’s court on how to act trust worthy. Even the Americans are finding it hard to trust the Pakistanis. So start there first.

“Unless India itself is not sincere, India will remain enemy no.1 for Pakistan and millitants will continue to be a secondary threat.”

It is time you opened the eyes and looked. Also close your ears to the propaganda that your leaders and establishment have been doing. Do not align yourself with militants. We have been dealing with militants in all forms, all across the nation for the past 60 years. Even now, in six months, ULFA has killed a lot of people in Assam. These have become routine for us and we have moved on. The country is too big to make a large scale impact. So it is better if your country wound up its militancy and support for it and spends that money on constructive goals.

While Pakistan needs to redefine its strategic threat, India needs to decide if its in their interest to have a normal relationship with Pakistan.”

India has always sought a normal relationship with every country. Pakistanis have to come forward to trust us. We are not going to do anything new. If you do not trust us, you will be the loser in the long run.

“Dawn says the Americans are offering Pakistan a new enemy as replacement : the militants..”

—OOPS! I spilled my tea..be right back..

Posted by anup | Report as abusive

I totally agree with the recommendations of the report. Every one knew a peaceful and friendly relations between India and Pakistan are in the favor of Pakistan, but these relationship needs to be on mutual respect basis. Since India and Pakistan, both are nuclear powers, so India should not expect any way of relationship other than equal partners. In my view, India Pakistan relationship should be based on same principles as India wishes to have with China, as India do believe itself an equal to China.

Now if we look at the bone of contention, we all know it from last 6 decades that major issue is Kashmir (rightly or wrongly), it became master peice of both militaries. Due to smaller GDP and size, most convenient and practical tactic for Pakistani military is gurrilla war, and for that they have to train and protect such forces. This was always there, and no one noticed it in rest of the world, because it was only bleeding India.

Number of these gurrilla forces increased during Afghan war, since US intellegence and military joined hands with Pakistan military to train such Gurrellas (mainly Afghans but also include arabs, african, central asians and pakistanis willing to fight in Afghanistan in a holly war – most of the world considered it since it was againts USSR at that time).

These forces (gurrellas, and in present world view terrorists) mostly protected and fought for the interest of Pakistan, so they were always in peace with Pakistan, but in recent years when US decided to eliminate majority of thems in the name of war against terrorism, and Pakistan was left with no option but to joins hands with US against these forces, now they turned against Pakistan too.

Unfortunately, Pakistan is easy target for them, since it is not easy to differentiate them from other Pakistanis and especially from Mujahideens (holly warriers), since to many pakistanis (who supported Afghan war) these people are known as the one who fought for Islam in Afghanistan, these includes ISI, which trained them along with US counter parts.

Therefore, this became a very complex issue and only way to eliminate terrorism from Pakistan and Pakistan support for these group, is to resolve Pakistan issues (main one is Kashmir) with India, and create environment of trust between India and paksitan, recognize Pakistan as a nuclear nation, and help creat conducive environment between Afghanistan and Pakistan. Then, there will be no reason left at government and military level to keep or train these fighters.

I will go a step further, and will help Pakistan and Afghanistan to bring these fighters under government control by establishing military wing of these fighters, such as FC, so that they could make living without fighting against government rather for the government.

“Can it work? India as no longer the existential threat to its very identity…”

—Will disintegrate Pakistan, would the Pakistani oligarchy run the risk??? even for America?

Posted by anup | Report as abusive

@umair
“You are much influenced by the media, do you really think Pakistan is falling apart and millitants are taking over? Pakistan is a huge and diverse country and any single isolated incident should not be the basis of your judgement”

It seems u are influenced by the media.give me one positive coming out of situtation in pakistan.i have reasons why i think pakistan has a threat..they are oviously agaisnt a motivated enemy..

Strengthening Pakistan’s weak civilian institutions, updating political parties rooted in feudal loyalties and recasting a military “fixated on yesterday’s enemy”, and stuck in the traditions of conventional warfare, are generational challenges.u cannot solve these things immediately.

large parts of the public, political class and the military have brushed off the obama’s plan, rebuffing the idea that the threat from al-Qaida and the Taliban, which Washington calls a common enemy, is not so urgent, . and that’s the attitude which you are showing..

President Asif Ali Zardari may be coming around but for the military, at least, India remains priority No. 1 and that’s what they are concentrating on, not worring abou the internal threat from taliban.

Fighting the insurgency is commonly seen in Pakistan as an American cause, not a Pakistani one..

i hope u have got the point..its not easy and pakistan definately doesn’t seems serious ENOUGH.

Posted by Raging bull | Report as abusive

Abid wrote:
“I will go a step further, and will help Pakistan and Afghanistan to bring these fighters under government control by establishing military wing of these fighters, such as FC, so that they could make living without fighting against government rather for the government.”

Yes Abid, it would make perfect sense to legitimize the existence of these fighters. After all they were raised, armed, trained, funded and indoctrinated by the CIA and US largely during the Afghan Jehad against the USSR. Merge them with the rangers and frontier corps, give them uniform, each one of them undertake a mandatory basic military training course and merge them within FC, Rangers/Pakistan Army and on other side with the ANA(Afghan National Army). The situation is complex and there are no quick fixes, complex problems need complex solutions, at first such an idea would seem ridiculous. But it needs to be given second thought.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Raging bull
The leadership of a country goes a long way reshaping the opinion of general public. When Pkaistan Army commanders tell us that India together with its nefarious plans in Afghanistan, its desire of strategic encirclement of Pakistan by pressure on eastern front and a anti-Pakistan hostile Kabul on the western front poses a far greater threat than the millitants. Then you tell me what is the solution. Poor Zardari doesnt have a clue what to do, he has a good business mind and wants to open up with India, his military commanders brief him the challenges India poses to Pakistan.
The question still is, can India sieze this opportunity? Can India offer a peace initiative, something like a peace conference, let one round take place in New Delhi and other one in Islamabad. Let both countrie’s leaders announce they want to start an era of friendship and cooperation. You cannot clap with one hand, we need sincere people on both sides of the border.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Excerpts from the report released by the Asia Society-
“Pakistan’s defense establishment is trained, equipped, and deployed almost exclusively for a potential conflict with India.”
(Breaking News!)

(The Obvious)
“The use of armed extremist groups for asymmetrical warfare to confront threats
from larger countries has created a military-extremist-industrial complex in Pakistan. The
November 2008 Mumbai attacks appear to have been carried out by organizations that
form a part of this complex.”

“the security establishment in Pakistan has an ambiguous attitude: It has always considered
both the Afghan Taliban and militant groups fighting in Kashmir to be strategic assets.
Transfixed by what it views as a far greater Indian threat, it has been reluctant to recognize
that the support structures and networks for these groups have also provided a safe haven for
al-Qaida and groups fighting the Pakistani state under the banner of the Pakistan Taliban
Movement (Tehrik-i Taliban-i Pakistan), led by Baitullah Mehsud.”
“Many militant groups that were originally active in Kashmir and based in southern Punjab have recently shifted their activities to FATA and increased their involvement in Afghanistan.”
(What else do they expect them to do? Grow pomegranates?)
–Followed by the usual Kashmir blah blah & ‘strategic’ rhetorics- “—the need for India and Pakistan to look beyond their traditional rivalries and to agree on a joint strategy to confront the extremists operating along the Pakistan–Afghanistan border and in their respective countries.”

Posted by anup | Report as abusive

Abid / Umair

“Merge them with the rangers and frontier corps,…”

-Duh! they are units of the same Pakistani Army,like peas in a pod. To view them as separate is an illusion.

Posted by anup | Report as abusive

Anup
“-Duh! they are units of the same Pakistani Army,like peas in a pod. To view them as separate is an illusion.”

yeah so since you cant do anything about it just suck it up!

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Umair: We all know that this is a complex mess (some knowingly deny the truth), and in one or other form indirectly talking the same thing as you said:

“it would make perfect sense to legitimize the existence of these fighters. After all they were raised, armed, trained, funded and indoctrinated by the CIA and US largely during the Afghan Jehad against the USSR.”

Take the example of NWFP government making an agreement with Mullah Umar. They did not make agreement because they love Taliban, since we all know ANP was always pro communists and always opposes fight against USSR, but they made agreement because there is no other way than accepting the truth.

Similarly, take statements of Pakistan and US government, talking of making peace with Talibans willing to give up weapons, but who will assure Taliban that US and Pakistani governments are sincere in what they are saying and will walk the talk. And most importantly, they have to come up with a plan (if there is any other than recruiting these taliban in military, since most have this skill only, and to assure them of a livelihood).

Hope world will understand the complexity of the issue and will handle it with urgency and with a practical approach.

I still believe no living being (even animals) will willingly choose death over life.

Posted by Abid | Report as abusive

Note to Indian will wishers:
India need to understand the severity and complexity of the issue. We all know how profoundly these fighters bled India in Kashmir and Khalistan. These fighters brought India to the knee, and first it was relieved by Benazir Bhutto when she gave Khalistan movement fighters to Rajiv Gandhi and then when 9-11 happened and existance of these fighters became a sore wound for US and allied armies, and Pakistan was left with no option but to restraint it open support for them.

Now if India think US will fight its war and will eliminate these people, then I will say with deep sadness that history will tell what grave mistake India is making. We all will see, US will reduce its expectations to a face saving level and will pull itself out of Afghanistan, as they are doing in Iraq, and since India share a LONG border with pakistan and Afghanistan through AJK, so it should remember an unstable Pakistan a nuclear state and Afghanistan are not in favor of India. Per Vajpai “you can choose your friends but not neighbors”. Such extremism can spell out of Pakistani and Afganistan borders.

Posted by Abid | Report as abusive

Guys: Check this link out and pay special attention to what Mr. Samit Ganguly and Mr. Aqil Shah are saying:
http://www.foreignaffairs.com/discussion s/roundtables/whats-the-problem-with-pak istan

Basically, Gangully is repeating Indian mentra without chewing on reality, while Aqil is saying the reality. Professor Cohen does re-itterated some facts but could not pass his bias despite his great and in depth understanding of south asia. e.g. he poses a good question to Gangully:
\”Stephen Cohen: What if they stop their ties to jihadi organizations that affect us but not to those that are pointed at India? Is this our problem or India\’s? And is al Qaeda a jihadi organization?\”

Posted by Abid | Report as abusive

Abid,
thanks for the link. I noted this:

“Stephen Cohen: Christine raises a critical issue, that Pakistan controls two vital choke points: access to Afghanistan from the south and east, and intelligence cooperation regarding jihadis who commute between Pakistan and other places (notably Europe). Past administrations in Washington were unwilling to forego Pakistani cooperation on security issues, something that gave Islamabad powerful cards. Will the Obama administration be able to develop alternative routes to Afghanistan that make it less dependent on Pakistani cooperation? Not anytime soon.”

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

First that lunatic Mehsud has to be rounded up and finished. Otherwise he is going to kill some key Americans. This will completely negate any efforts for peace in the region. The Americans will lose their minds and that is danger for Pakistan. You do not want their cruise missiles directed at Islamabad. Or they may take law into their own hands and start attacking the FATA and other lawless regions. This will create chaos and might split your military in half – those who surrender to the US and those who surrender to the Taliban. Any time the US has taken up arms inside a country, it only messed it up even more and nothing good emerged out of it. The situation might accelerate the splintering of Pakistan into tiny nations, making Kashmir issue irrelevant. And this is what Indians will be licking their lips on. Why not? We don’t want trouble makers in our vicinity. I do not wish for it. But I am reading a book by Ahmed Rashid on Central Asia titled “Jihad.” Great book. And it shows how Stalin redrew the map there and permanently damaged peace in the region. The British have done the same in order to keep the locals fighting each other. Pakistan, unfortunately, in its frenzy to destroy India, has brought the outcome upon itself. There is only one way out of this – Fight the Taliban and destroy them first. Then worry about India, Kashmir etc. Otherwise, the US will do it for you and your country might not survive in the bargain. Obama is a straight talker and he will do what he says.

“Shaun Gregory: It is increasingly clear to everyone except Pakistanis that Pakistan is no longer a regional equal of India, and nobody behaves any longer as though it is. Sumit is right: if Pakistan wants sensitivity to its legitimate interests, then it must acknowledge those of others, and that means recognizing India’s emergence as a great power and its legitimate concerns about China. Pakistan’s insistence on a bilateral calculus vis-à-vis India makes no sense anymore and is a patent obstacle to progress.”

This comes in the discussion quoted by Abid. I am not alone in my words. Others are saying the same. Pakistanis should stop equating their country with India. There is absolutely no comparison, other than the fact that Pakistan was carved out of India in 1947. India has to keep up with China which is similar in size and other factors. India’s nuclear explosions were not Pakistan specific, but for achieving neutrality with China. The same for missiles. After achieving that parity, India has not indulged in any asymmetric warfare with China regarding Tibet, Aksai Chin or Uighurs. Pakistan has been doing that with India. And it has bled itself in the bargain.

@In Pakistan nuclear power constitutes only 1.7% of total electricity supply. At this stage the supply of civilian nuclear technology could help Pakistan to meet its energy demand.
- Posted by Umair

–Umair, good joke!
US and France trust India with civil-nuclear technology for clean record, but not with Pakistan which indulges in wild Nuclear Orgy without minding its partners. They are worried about your several past nuclear partners.

All that policy of China/Pakistan to spread the nukes was with China’s vested interest, widely considered as their view of themselves as the last man standing if nuclear holocoust happens by one of these trading countries or anyone who gets hold of the stuff. Pakistan’s interest as selling to Islamic countries is obvious–the Islamic bomb as the name says.

Communist/Islamic coaltion nuclear bomb against West and now you are asking the US for nuclear technology for your electricity supply. Rule out West on this, not just US.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

@Yes Abid, it would make perfect sense to legitimize the existence of these fighters. After all they were raised, armed, trained, funded and indoctrinated by the CIA and US largely during the Afghan Jehad against the USSR. Merge them with the rangers and frontier corps, give them uniform, each one of them undertake a mandatory basic military training course and merge them within FC, Rangers/Pakistan Army and on other side with the ANA(Afghan National Army).”
- Posted by Umair

-Abid/Umair, after your do that, make sure you do not invite them over. not especially all that gang with Taliban–their favorite past time is flogging, and asked the flogged to tell the reason. They pay more attention to women.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

While the world is focused on Pakistan, one should not take their eyes off China. I get the feeling China is watching the entire development in the region with interest. It is made up of as many emotional fools as Pakistan has, who want to show off their macho power to the rest of the world. They are watching the following:

1. A weakening US economy and slow recovery.
2. Situation getting out of control in Afghanistan / Pakistan.

Any failure in this region will make them think that the US has gone weak. They may think that Obama’s call for reducing and eliminating nuclear weapons as a sign of weakness. Until now the Americans always talked from a position of strength.

If the US showed any gains in the region, China will try to neutralize it. So Pakistan might look to China for help this time as the US starts pushing them to a corner. If the American attempts begin to fail as a result of this, China is immature enough to move in for the kill. They may turn North Korea loose first. The US, broke on one side and engaged in Pakistan on the other side, might find it hard to manage both sides. They might be forced to sound a quick retreat from Pakistan.
Or if the US manages to stay put, China might walk into Taiwan. The US is already weakened by the war efforts in Iraq and Pakistan and financial break down, might try to reassert itself by engaging in a much larger war with China.

A war will suit China’s needs because their economy is in shambles as well. 20 million people already had to leave big cities for lack of work. Autocratic regimes seek war whenever they have no solutions to their economic problems.

Pakistan’s only escape route is China and China is itching to reduce American power in the world. They are already demanding an international currency against the US dollar.

The world is about to enter an interesting stage. India has to lose a lot in this scenario. I hope the idiots who make up the BJP or the Samajwadi clowns do not come to power this time. I prefer Congress led alliance at this situation for the next 5 years.

@Mauryan

While you and I may have our ideological differences, I think we both agree on the end result – the “Big Picture”, if you will. China is playing the sleepy-eyed giant at the moment. They always have an opinion in monetary matters, but when it comes to international cooperation, they urge “restraint” (read as ‘appeasement’). Why? Because they don’t want to open the “human rights” can of worms. It would lead to change from within, and that is something the Chinese Communist party cannot afford. As many analyst have said, they are in this for the long haul. Isn’t it odd that while they continue to restrict the rights of their citizens and bleach away any cultural differences, they are all-of-a-sudden showing “religious harmony” with the Buddhists, which are suddenly led by arse-kissing ‘priests’? They are going to take Taiwan without a shot being fired by this method, I believe. Also, they love to beg off from any role in helping the international community with the “I am so poor, ask America” excuse. Check out the following article for more on this “we are rich/poor nation” approach to diplomacy:

http://uk.reuters.com/article/burningIss ues/idUKTRE53501820090406

Now, with that being said, I also believe there is only one way to force China to show its hand without actually provoking them: extremely warm relations between India and America. The American public is quickly becoming infatuated with all things India, and the politicians will play this to the hilt. India has the need for development, and us Americans want a friend, not just a plastic pump like China (we are tired of just having Europe/Japan to talk to and actually trust). Its obvious from reading US news that while Americans still aren’t comfortable with our relationship with China, we aren’t exactly refusing to buy their products – yet. We know they make unsafe crap, but we don’t have many alternatives as the cost of Japanese/Korean goods starts to equal that of domestic goods. India has the workforce and the hunger for growth. Indo-American ties will also help Russian-American “ties” (sorry, but its gonna be a long time before we sit around a camp fire with Russia and sing folk songs). All of this will drive the Communist party in China bat-$#!t crazy, and then they will have to modernize their government, or be backed into a corner. I think this is why successive American adminstrations are trying so hard to get Pakistan to stay in “the fold”. They see the two publics of US and India forming ties stronger than any government agreements through the Hollywood/Bollywood exchange,etc., and they want Pakistan fully on board before the $@#% hits the fan with China! This may sound far-fetched, but I look at it from this standpoint: “Anything Richard Nixon did, should be undone”. Right now we just got rid of Nixon-2.0(Cheney, cause Bush was just a baffoon), and are currently under Jimmy Carter-2.0(Obama). Next is Reagan-2.0, and that spells trouble for Communism.

Peace.

Posted by Patrick | Report as abusive

Abid

“India need to understand the severity and complexity of the issue.”
—It does & need no advice on it & is ‘capable’ of fighting it’s own battles & emerge victorious.

“so it should remember an unstable Pakistan a nuclear state and Afghanistan are not in favor of India.”
—On the contrary – it is most favourable to India. Such extremism will spell doom only to Pakistan eventually.

\”Stephen Cohen: What if they stop their ties to jihadi organizations that affect us but not to those that are pointed at India? Is this our problem or India\’s? And is al Qaeda a jihadi organization?\”

—Well, firstly, even though he’s a Pak sympathizer,he endorses & legitimizes India’s conclusion that ‘they’ have ties with jihadi org. of all hue & colors, & so do you by ‘quoting’ him.
Secondly the west has always turned a blind-eye towards the terrorists org. aimed at India, the alms & arms that the US supplies to Pakistan are clandestinely gifted to assist in their ‘proxy war’ against India, the ample lip-service after 26/11 & black-mailing India on the ‘K’ word – the ‘Mili’blunder’ from UK – are testimony to the fact. Indian’s are no longer a deluded lot & know that nothing short of disintegration of Pakistan will bring peace to this region.
Incase you’ve overlooked this in my previous post-
“Many militant groups that were originally active in Kashmir and based in southern Punjab have recently shifted their activities to FATA and increased their involvement in Afghanistan.” (The US can have them too..lol)
(What else do they expect them to do? Grow pomegranates?)

Posted by anup | Report as abusive

The Pakistani joke, “all countries have armies, but here, an army has a country.”

Posted by anup | Report as abusive

Abid wrote:
Now if India think US will fight its war and will eliminate these people, then I will say with deep sadness that history will tell what grave mistake India is making.

Abid, what f**king war will America fighting for India?

Abid wrote:
so it should remember an unstable Pakistan a nuclear state and Afghanistan are not in favor of India.

No sh*t! Could all Pakistanis (Umair and Abid) please stop trying their hardest to sould like pathetic apologists.

The only thing India is doing in Afghanistan is reconstruction because India got most of the contracts much to Pakistan’s annoyance. GOT IT!!!

The idea of an encirclement is a load of bull!! If that was the case then Indian soldiers would be stationed in Afghanistan.

Umair wrote:
The question still is, can India sieze this opportunity? Can India offer a peace initiative.

So Umair-ji, India is reconstructing Afghanistan’s infastructure and YOU see this ans an encirclement of Pakistan. Do you have any TANGIBLE proof of terrorist attacks from Indians coming from Afghanistan?

You Pakis have got some nerve to drag India into issues that have arisen from YOUR soil alone.

YOU created the Taliban and NOT the CIA in order to nurture YOUR proxy wars against India. Now that they have turned against Pakistan, you expect India to offer a peace initiative.

REAP WHAT YOU SOW!!!!

Posted by bulletfish | Report as abusive

Extracts from BBC news, article: Pakistan ‘battling for survival’ (7th April 2009).

“Pakistan is fighting a battle of its own survival,” said Zardari.

-HELP!!!

“Pakistan… needs unconditional support by the international community in the fields of education, health, training and provision of equipment for fighting terrorism.”

-GIVE ME ALL THE MONEY AND MILITARY EQUIPMENT AND I WILL SEE WHAT I CAN DO TO MAKE ALL THE TERRORISM GO AWAY WITH NEGOTIATIONS. WE WILL TEST THESE NEW TOYS AGAINST INDIA TO PULL THEM INTO OUR MESS.

In a press conference on Tuesday, both nations spoke of the need for “trust”. “We can only work together if we respect each other and trust each other.”

-USA: I don’t trust these Pakis. I give then billions and they nogotiate with the Taliban instead of fighting them.
-PAKISTAN: I don’t trust these Yanks. They give us billions and expect us to kill fellow Muslims who in turn are terrorizing Pakistan.

Adm Mullen did not respond directly when asked why the US would not simply hand over the drones to Pakistan but said the US was eager to share counter-insurgency techniques.

-Adm Mullen knows that Pakistan will ABUSE these drones for use against India because Pakistan still considers India the number one enemy. Pakistan will also eagerly share the drone technology with China.

Mr Obama has pledged substantial economic assistance for Pakistan – more than $1bn annually over the next five years – but the money will depend on the army’s performance against the Taleban and al-Qaeda.

-You want aid, Pakistan? Then get off your arse and earn it!! Fight the Taliban that is making you fight for your own survival!! Remember the words of Gilani, “This is not Charlie Wilson’s war, but Benazir Bhutto’s war.”

-IT IS CERTAINLY NOT INDIA’S WAR EITHER!!!

-Mr Holbrooke is the joint US envoy for Pakistan and Afghanistan. India is not included.

Posted by bulletfish | Report as abusive

hi abid/ umair/ anup/ bulletfish/raging bull…etc

can any one of you explain me the advantage(s) of being a “recognized” nuclear power..?

Posted by rony | Report as abusive

rony
(depends where you coming from mentally while posing this query.. but anyways the ground reality is that….)
—being a “recognized” nuclear power..means you are no longer treated as a pariah & are freed from technology & economic sanctions, in short you are now accepted as a force worthy to be reckoned..on equal terms.

Posted by anup | Report as abusive

am from india, raised in hyderabad, born in kottayam kerala, graduated in pune, working in bang….

am really on the look out for these kinda blogs, and other stuff that give unbiased glimpses of life on the other side of the border, i am inclined to think that most of wat we see on tv about pak might be selective and exaggerated.

as for this blog… you’ll have to admire the predicament of all the players involved…
1. an india who wants to grow out and get de-hyphenated from pak.
2.a pakistan who simply doesn’t want that… for a myraid of reasons.
3.and an america who doesn’t want to admit the mistakes of prev presidents,policy advisors etc [the list, i guess starts with nixon choosing to ally pak]

Posted by rony | Report as abusive

@anup,
and thanks for the clarification about the nukes i guess to the pakistanis, their nukes mean a lot to them…

Posted by rony | Report as abusive

rony
“their nukes mean a lot to them…”
—& to the terrorists & to the west & to china…

“[the list, i guess starts with nixon choosing to ally pak]”

—Well on India’s part, being a passive partner in the cold war, ignoring the sound advices from the likes of C. Rajagopalachari & Shastri & to top it with poor diplomacy, which to some extent still is the bane of India.

Posted by anup | Report as abusive

Rony:
Recognition of nuke along with many other realities mean accepting the truth and giving up hypocracy. We all knew and have seen that both India and pakistan tested nuke, but west will accept one because of economic interest and will not recognize other because of religion bias. This is not just the case with nuke, which is just one example, but look at many other things such as Isreal-Palestine (now no one care for it, but when it comes to Bosnia vs Yogusylvia then it is different, when it comes to Iraq invasion of Kuwait then it is different etc). Similarly, when these so called terrorists were fighting against USSR during Afgan war and against India in Kashmir, then they were holly warriers, but now after september 11 they became common enemies and terrorists. Similarly, if we do soul searching we could accept the truth and reality about who created Saddam and who created Osama, but when interests changes, these all became bad people.

Now if Osama is fighting against USSR and Saddam is fighting against Iran, then they are right as they are fighting for liberation from occupiers, but when they fight against others to liberate Iraq, Afganistan, Palestine and Saudi Arabia from the influence of occupiers then they became terrorists since occupiers are different than Russia, Iran and Iraq. This is same hypocracy as accepting India nuke but not Pakistan.

We all blame and condemn ISI and Pakistan military for creation and aiding these organizations, but where were we when US was aiding most of the same Mujahideens. When you create someone and teach them a life style either live with it or teach them and aid them to live a better life style than what you already taught them. So blame should be equally shared by all parties involved in Afgan war.

Now it is Pakistan bad luck for being in close proximity to Afganistan with no proper border (with limited resources, lack of high tech equipments and trecherous mountains between Pakistan and Afganistan, plus millions of Afgan refugees who already acquired Pakistani NID and passports through bribe from corrupt civilian government officials) it is easy for pakistan to stop them both because of practicality reason (since US can not stop illegal immigrants from Mexico and Canada, despite all the might and technology in the world, and EU can’t stop illegal immigrants either) and moral reason since these are the same people Pakistan created for Afgan war along with its allied.

So in these situation, it is not fair to blame someone and expect short term solutions, especially if you are India. Short term solutions may work for US, as it will allow them to get out of Afganistan, as they did at the end of USSR war without helping rebuild afganistan, but in few years it will be a bigger mess and may not be good for the region including India, Iran and Central Asia.

Posted by Abid | Report as abusive

This should be posed here.

Pakistan has got to realize that the bigger threat is the Taliban and it’s fundamentalist views. However, in seeking an alliance with Pakistan against terrorists, America is courting a Muslim nation whose military is fixated on India.

I have a feeling that THIS is what the Pakistani Elite want:
USA to help solve the Kashmir problem. For USA to put pressure on India to leave Kashmir, then Pakistanis would gladly help USA against Taleban.

Its more like a typical tendency to link every problem in the world to the Kashmir issue. It sounds like this: if you don’t help Pakistan in Kashmir we will keep hurting ourselves and may even shoot ourselves in head. So, the USA should help Pakistan gain Kashmir when the same groups it used against India are now attacking Pakistan.

Yet Pakistan and the Taliban have made themselves the greatest existential threat to the United States, NATO, Europe and the world at large.

Posted by bulletfish | Report as abusive

With due respect, we are not arguing that killing of innocent people (either victims of suicide bombs, or drone attacks or bombs dropped by B-2) is right, we do condemn and do wish if Pakistani, Afgans, Iraqi, Palestinians could live a safe, prosperous and peaceful life just like any one in US, China or India. Now you will say why do not they choose peace over war and bombing, but unfortunately it is not their choice rather it is imposed on them.

When brits left ME they created Isreal which was not there and later Isreal went to get even more land from neighbors and now if we blame Palestenians then I can not say anything.

US was the one who attacked Iraq without having any WMD or role in 9/11. USSR was the one invaded Afganistan, otherwise Afganistan was the most peaceful nation in the region. Brits violated principles of partitions and left muslim majority state in India and then Nehru was the one who took it to UN and didn’t resolve it. So we can not blame the miseries solely on Palestenians, Iraqis, Afganies and Pakistanis, since their only fault is they stand up for their rights.

Posted by Abid | Report as abusive

Abid writes: “their only fault is they stand up for their rights.”

Pakistan lost its moral right to cry for others’ rights after East Pakistan genocide. Surely there are very good Pakistanis like Asma Jehangir who can stand up for rights. But those who are demanding rights for the Kashmiris are not these moderates, but gun toting and blood thirsty terrorists and their supporters in the Pakistani military and political establishment. This is the same department that engaged in genocide inside East Pakistan. So when the wolf cries for the sheep, no one trusts it. Its ulterior motives are obvious.

Pakistan’s interest in Kashmir is only for one reason – to get at India. If they had taken Kashmir in 1947, even then that attitude would not have died down. Pakistan will still be where it is today. The Kashmir issue is now an excuse to engage India. If it was not Kashmir, it would be something else – rights for Muslim brothers inside India. The ISI would have set up cells inside Indian Muslim population that would instigate violence and exploit the retaliation to keep India bled. So the agenda is the same.

Pakistanis talk of Palestenian rights. But they do not care for Kurdish people when Turkey or Iraq slaughters them periodically to quell any uprising. It is alright for Muslim to engage another Muslim. It becomes a rights issue if non-Muslim gets involved. Wherever there are Muslims they set about asserting their rights. In some areas in France, traffic comes to a halt as Algerian Muslims use the streets for prayer. In Mumbai the same thing happened and the Shiv Sena staged “Maha Arti” to counter it. Then they are blamed as Muslim baiters. Shiv Sena is not a welfare organization, but Muslim intolerance triggers counter organizations of that kind everywhere. In Malaysia, the Bhumi Putra movement turned viciously against Chinese Christians and Indian immigrants.

In another 50 years, UK, France etc will become Dar Ul Islam as the Muslim population there is swelling. It is all right with me. But it will be interesting when the white Christians begin to fight for their rights at that time.

Patrick,

Sorry. Your posting got buried by others posts. Coming to China – The autocracy in China is one of the most ruthless in the world. Look at the countries that it supports – Burma, North Korea, Pakistan, Vietnam, Cambodia – all backward swamps and China intends keeping them that way. Now it is gaining foothold in Africa and I can bet they would leach these countries bare soon. China’s appetite is resulting in massive deforestation in Amazon. Its environmental pollution is on the verge of disaster. Read a book called, “The empire of lies.” I forgot the author’s name. It has denied rights to its own people and if it becomes a super power, the same will happen to others who depend on it.

The US is paying a price for short sighted policies across the globe. Nixon was a crook and he courted China to get at the USSR, without realizing the long term repercussions. Nixon is long gone and now China is beginning to flex its muscles slowly. This might be the beginning of the end of American “empire.” In a general sense, the American empire was benevolent to most of the world. The Chinese empire will bring more devastation.

Abid

—how about coming with something original, what you have on display is the same old run of the mill ‘victim mentality’ – a sprinkle of Israel-Palestine, a little bit of Saddam, a dash of Kashmir – (oblivious of a Darfur etc.)

Posted by anup | Report as abusive

Mauryan
“Look at the countries that it supports – Burma, North Korea, Pakistan, Vietnam, Cambodia – all backward swamps ”

If India is added to the above list, and the list is arranged, I am sure India will top the list of backward swamps with sheer number of slums it has. Yoor slums are even got famous enough to make it to the Hollywood, courtesy Danny Boyle.
(Mauryan, nothing personal, I am a Pakistani and always feel the need to respond when I see something against Pakistan. I never like my country to be called a backward swamp, though I have always agreed we are lacking in progress and need to get upto speed.) Your understanding is much appreciated!

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

I agree with Anup, Old song of Kashmir again,Abid you forget to mention nukes in your last comment !

But JOKE OF THE DAY IS >>

“Now it is Pakistan bad luck for being in close proximity to Afghanistan”

Pakistan has exploited this for decades, even today money is flowing towards you, so that you can pay your bills. Your leaders never fail to praise geo-political location of Pakistan and how this war cannot be won without including pakistan.

Obviously Pakistan is creating this terrorism, how they can be ignored ??

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive

Pakistan has already rejected the US proposal for joint operations in the tribal areas…why? They are fearful that the Taliban terrorists will step up their suicide attacks within Pakistan and target more civilians.

However, they will carry on welcoming the $1.5 billion per year, but still carry on asking for other military equipment that the US will flatly refuse to give Pakistan…why? The USA knows that Pakistan will use them against Pakistan’s enemy number one, India. They will use the equipment themselves or train another Jihadi group to use them against India.

Posted by bulletfish | Report as abusive

Following on from my previous comment; the title of this blog says it all: India not the enemy, US tell Pakistan.

Will Pakistan listen to the hand that lines its pockets?

Is that the pockets of the feudal elite and high-ranking officers or the general population suffering the terrorism of the Taliban that Pakistan created?

Posted by bulletfish | Report as abusive

Punjabiyaar!
I am not speaking for Pakistani government or Pakistani “military officers”, rather I do think what i said “Now it is Pakistan bad luck for being in close proximity to Afghanistan” might reflect the feelings of mainstream Pakistanis and Pakistan’s soldiers who are forced with one of the two options: 1. become victim of a suicide or missile (made in USA) attack or 2. kill those who they trained under the instructions of same masters (US, Pakistan corrupt civilian leaders and Pakistan military officers).

It is Pakistan corrupt civillian leaders and military officers who welcome US aid in one or other pretex, mainstream Pakistanis want a good life for their kids as much as any other person on the face of earth.

Posted by Abid | Report as abusive

Mauryan: If you think it is ok to have Shiv Sena as a reaction to muslim “Shiv Sena is not a welfare organization, but Muslim intolerance triggers counter organizations of that kind everywhere.” Then why you have problem with Taliban and co as a reaction to Indian atrocities in Kashmir, Isreali actions and rest of the world inaction in Palestine, most of the puppets governments in muslim worlds who would rather safeguard others interest than Pakistani people interest?

Posted by Abid | Report as abusive

For Abid, Pakistan is like Israel… Created out of India… On the grounds you debate Palestinian rights, Pakistan and Kashmir has no right to exist.

US is repeating its mistakes by unnecessarily imposing it’s wish in the region. For a more mature solution to the Af-Pak, problem, UN should get involved and govern both the nations directly till the problem of terrorism is eradicated.

Also, one truth should be formally accepted by all before trying to bring a lasting solution… Muslim Terrorists, hardliners (mullahs, khomeinis etc) and more recently preachers (preachers on web etc) do not believe in concept of nation or peace or right of other religions to exist… How does this problem get addressed?

Posted by Rohit | Report as abusive

Rohit:
“On the grounds you debate Palestinian rights, Pakistan and Kashmir has no right to exist.”

I want to question you on this, on what basis are you stating Pakistan cannot exist? Pakistan and Kashmir have every right to exist with their full might and exterminate anyony who would threaten their existence. Just remember what you call today ‘India’ was governed by muslims for 800 years before the British came in.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Abid writes: “why you have problem with Taliban and co as a reaction to Indian atrocities in Kashmir, Isreali actions and rest of the world inaction in Palestine, most of the puppets governments in muslim worlds who would rather safeguard others interest than Pakistani people interest?”

Abid,

Kindly do not distort facts in a fit of emotion. Taliban is not a reaction to “Indian atrocities” in Kashmir. I don’t have to tell you about the history of Taliban on how it emerged and who sponsored to victory in Afghanistan and why it is now spread into FATA. It is not Kashmir. You know that very well.

I am against the British messing up a lot of geography across the globe, for which people are paying a heavy price. I do not support the division of Middle East into Iraq, Kuwait, UAE, Saudi Arabia etc by the British. Israel happened because of German holocaust that drove Jews away and they began to populate Palestine and used militancy to win the formation of Israel. The British did a lot of mistakes in a hurry. They misled the Arabs in order to break the Turkish empire’s back. Then they betrayed them. They drew the Durand line that divided Pashtuns between Afghanistan and Pakistan. They also drew arbitrary lines that made Hindus/Sikhs and Muslims on opposite sides that led to massacre during partition.
I am against all this. But the world has moved on.

Let us talk about today. Taliban is a creation of the Pakistani military and was breast fed by the ISI. India’s military is in Kashmir to protect its territory. Islamic insurgents from inside Pakistan (military personnel in disguise, unemployed youth taken by militant organizations etc) creep into Indian held Kashmir and attack the military and civilians. And the military with its back to the wall, retaliates and it is brutal. First have your citizens return to Pakistan and act responsible. Kashmir will be peaceful again.

If you take an honest survey today for Indian Muslims and Kashmiris on whether they’d love to migrate to Pakistan for being in an Islamic brotherhood, I can bet 99% would say no. You know the reasons. Pakistan has deteriorated. It is no longer safe haven for Muslims. The Pakistan that Jinnah formed and the Pakistan today are vastly different. Pakistan has become rudderless and is drifting about. It is unfortunate. It is not something worth celebrating. All humans have the right to live a good life, including Pakistanis. But look at where things stand.

Muslims should stop living with a victim mentality. That is the main reason behind their problems. They tend to group together and live in an “us” versus “them” mind set. Their religious leaders are responsible for this. Whenever they form a country on their own, they become worse with respect to this mindset. All other countries that are non-Muslim become enemies or cannot be trusted. Somehow, the change in the mind set has to come from within the Islamic system. Others cannot help it.

ISI chief refuses to meet US officials: reports
Updated at: 2238 PST, Tuesday, April 07, 2009
http://www.geo.tv/4-7-2009/39297.htm

ISLAMABAD: ISI chief Lieutenant General Ahmad Shuja Pasha declined to meet with US special envoy for Pakistan and Afghanistan Richard Holbrooke and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Admiral Michael Mullen here on Tuesday.

According to some reports, he refused to meet the visiting American officials in protest against allegations leveled against ISI.

It may be mentioned here that US envoy Holbrooke and Admiral Mullen, who arrived here on Monday for a two-day visit, held separate meetings with President Asif Ali Zardari, Prime Minister Syed Yousuf Raza Gilani, PML-N chief Nawaz Sharif and Army chief General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Mauryan writes:
“Pakistan has deteriorated. It is no longer safe haven for Muslims. The Pakistan that Jinnah formed and the Pakistan today are vastly different. Pakistan has become rudderless and is drifting about. It is unfortunate. It is not something worth celebrating. All humans have the right to live a good life, including Pakistanis. But look at where things stand. ”

Sometimes they say ignorance is a blessing, I want you to remain under no illusion about Pakistan. We are riding through the storm no doubt, but we have full situational awareness we havent lost the sense of direction. What the media is potraying is completely wrong. I even had Indians here on this blog stating Pakistan is only a matter of few more months and will collapse. Dont become self proclaimed fortune tellers, just months back when I didnt have the grasp of what is going on, I was of the same view. I thought we are really rudderless, like a kite which has broken free and just going where the wind takes it.
You need to understand the entire game before you can predict the performance of any of its players. When a player is just trying to save his wicket and rotate the strike by taking singles, just wait for the loose delivery and smash it to the boundary. Down to the last 10 overs, when there are wickets in hand one can go all out for slogging. You dont call a cool and calm batsman a looser, let the time come. We will bring out the best in us when it should matter the most. Regarding Indian muslims not opting to join Pakistan at this stage, Mauryan you got to be sure about this one. I lived among Indian muslims, I had friends from Mumbai and Gujarat, I know how Indian muslims view Pakistan.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

“ISI chief refuses to meet US officials: reports
Updated at: 2238 PST, Tuesday, April 07, 2009″

THE WASHINGTON TIMES | Wednesday, April 8, 2009

“Pakistani Ambassador Husain Haqqani Tuesday called for a $30 billion dollar Marshall Plan for Pakistan and Afghanistan over the next five years to fight al Qaeda, blunt anti-American sentiment and secure Pakistan from extremists bent on destabilizing its civilian government. ”

http://washingtontimes.com/news/2009/apr  /08/pakistan-we-need-a-marshall-plan/

Guess what Americans said, f**k off.

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive

The Paks have a thorough commitment to liberating the oppressed all over planet, only comparable to americans.
The Paks should pronto extend their leadership benefits to the beleaguered men tortured in christian Philippines and buddhist Thailand and Myanmar.
Just asking……
you all have your training camps working on the future jihad in the above areas. Why not.
You are a global power for your information.

Excuse me

Posted by Abid | Report as abusive

“Pakistani Ambassador Husain Haqqani Tuesday called for a $30 billion dollar Marshall Plan for Pakistan and Afghanistan over the next five years to fight al Qaeda, blunt anti-American sentiment and secure Pakistan from extremists bent on destabilizing its civilian government. ”

Let us reword this correctly:

Pakistani Ambassador Husain Haqqani Tuesday called for a $30 billion dollar Marshall Plan for Pakistan and Afghanistan over the next five years to SUSTAIN al Qaeda, INCREASE anti-American sentiment and secure Pakistan MORE WEAPONS IN ORDER TO FEED JIHADIS FOR destabilizing INDIA’S civilian government.

Umair,

There is no such thing as “Indian Muslims.” India is a nation of small nations. Muslims vary dramatically from one place to another. We have Afghans living in Hyderabad (Deccan) for more than four centuries. We have Arabs settled in southern state of Tamil Nadu for eons, completely blended into our culture. Muslim communities are mixed into the middle of non-Muslim areas, just like the areas in Pakistan were before partition. Depending upon which Muslim you talk to, the response will vary. Some communities in Kerala have been Muslims even before Mohammed Bin Ghori appeared in the North. The state of Uttar Pradesh has more Muslims than those in Kashmir. Most of them have settled well into the Indian mainstream and are happy to go about their lives.

The issues that concerns Muslims are the same that many other communities experience in India – lack of opportunities, poverty etc. And not all Muslims can be clubbed into one major block of under privileged class. The economic progress in India is helping every community rise up. Muslims have formed a powerful vote block in states like Uttar Pradesh and Bihar. The end result is politicians are rolling out red carpets for them to get their votes.

Coming to Pakistan, their fears of being ruled by a Hindu majority was unwarranted and unnecessary. The fact that more than 100 million Muslims in India are sharing the nation with others proved this fear to be a myth. To justify that myth, Pakistan is still trying to hold on to the belief that mosques are being razed down daily, Muslims are forced into concentration camps and so on. Riots do happen once in a while and they are not exclusive between Hindus and Muslims.

India has many Jinnahs in every state and they try to hijack their local regions to enhance their power base once in a while. But their influence stays local and does not spread across the nation. There are always “fears” of Brahmin dominance, Dalit’s rights, Christian conversions, Communists, Maoists, Naxals, Trade Unions and so on. But they seem normal and people have gotten used to them.

What the Americans have begun to tell Pakistanis now is the truth – get rid off this obsession with India. That is the only thing that has ruined Pakistan from the start. It is time to look inwards. Sometimes when people harm others in devious ways, they always become paranoiac about being harmed the same way. Pakistan’s fear of Indian embassies in Afghanistan is an example.

And I called Pakistan a swamp because that word refers to stagnation. Pakistan, Burma etc have become stagnant. Even if India is poor, it has not become stagnant. It is like a tiny stream that is at least flowing. Anything that flows remains clean. Stagnant societies become infested with problems. Your favorite AQ Khan has said that Pakistan cannot make a sharp needle, but have made a nuclear weapon. And that is the reality. Other than the nuclear weapons, Pakistan has not developed the way a nation should. I understand that your pride hurts. But so does reality.

You should never compare your country with India. It is apples versus oranges comparison. You should measure your progress with a nation similar to yours. May be Iran or or Afghanistan or Bangladesh would be a fair comparison. India is huge and is comparable to China. But India lags behind China on many fronts. The only positive thing about India is that it is a democracy, while China is a Communist autocracy. When you compare your nation with an appropriate match, then all equations will change and it will help you look in a different direction with different objectives.

Remember that a big truck may be slow, but it carries a lot of momentum. Driving a pick up truck into it will not harm the big truck much, but will cause a lot of damage to the pick up truck.

Ambassador Haqqani is very much motivated and is in all smiles standing in line after 50 states as a 51st state ( recent addition to the union)for a paycheck of a billion bucks per pay period that too tax-free.

Umair wrote:
Just remember what you call today ‘India’ was governed by muslims for 800 years before the British came in.

Umair, if we needed a history lesson I would have read a text book. Yes, the muslims brought many things like the Taj Mahal…etc. However, do not forget the oppression that was reigned down on non-Muslims after the death of Mughul Akbar.

When emperor Shah Jahan viewed the Taj Mahal, he ordered his men to cut off the right hand of the master architect Ustad Isa (a Persian), so the later may not be able to erect such a stately and imposing edifice again in his life. Can you feel the romance, Umair.

Posted by bulletfish | Report as abusive

Here is the US envoy to Af-Pak with General Mullen in Pakistan who want Pakistan to fight and remove the terrorists from its soil who are fermenting attacks on US and NATO troops in Afghanistan.

There is no love lost between these two nations. USA accuses Pakistan’s forces and ISI of having connections with the Taliban and other terrorist outfits. Pakistan takes a tough stance over drone attacks.

He (Mr. Holbrooke) evaded a question about the Kashmir dispute and just said that the United States would not mediate between India and Pakistan. (DAWN.com, Wed, 08 April 2009).

This is typical to drag the Kashmir issue into the equation to distract attention from the Taliban and other terrorists. The REAL issue here is Af-Pak. Pakistan is desperate to get India hyphenated too.

Posted by bulletfish | Report as abusive

hi abid and umair, where do you guys reside..?

Posted by rony | Report as abusive

Hey Umair, I have just read an article from the English newspaper, The Daily Telegraph, 04 April 2009. Please tell me these extracts are not true:

Pakistan school fears terrorism, as threat of Iraq-style violence grows.

-A visit to Marghalla Higher Secondary makes it all too clear just how much terrorism is affecting the fabric of everyday life. At the front gate, discreetly armed security guards frisk all pupils, looking for bombs that might have been placed in their schoolbags. Parents who want to drop their children close to the school itself must obtain a special badge for their car, authorising it to come near. Inside, windows have been fitted with grilles and shatter-proof class, CCTV cameras scan the corridors, and extra emergency stairwells have been built.

-But much of middle-class Pakistan is no longer in the mood to give Mr Obama the chance to fight it. Instead, just as in Iraq after the fall of Saddam Hussein, those who can afford it now talk of abandoning the country altogether, emigrating to join extended family in other countries so that their children can grow up safely. The pessimistic mood is summed up in a text-messaged joke which is doing the rounds in Islamabad The official national slogan of “Pakistan Zindabad” (long live Pakistan) has been changed to Pakistan Sai Zindha Bhaag (run away alive from Pakistan).

-The fear of a loved one being caught up in the trouble is now creating a renewed business boom for Rajab Tonyo, owner of the Paras International Immigration Consultants in Rawalpindi, who advises Pakistani families seeking to move abroad. When Pakistan’s military leader, Pervez Musharaff, stepped down as president last August to make way for a new civilian government, Mr Tonyo noticed a drop-off in inquiries, as optimism grew that a return to a civilian government would bring peace. Now, he said, inquiries had risen from just a handful per month to more than 100 in March, mostly from educated professionals from the troubled North West Frontier Province. Many were asking about Canada, Denmark and Australia, where visa restrictions are currently less stringent than in Britain.

Posted by bulletfish | Report as abusive

Umair:

I donot understand ,why Pakistanis treat India as the enemy no 1, is it not true that poverty and extremism are the biggest enemy ,of both India and Pakistan, can we unite in this fight against poverty and extremism?

Posted by Manish | Report as abusive

“Pakistani Ambassador Husain Haqqani Tuesday called for a $30 billion dollar Marshall Plan for Pakistan and Afghanistan over the next five years to fight al Qaeda,…”

—We Indians are ready to offer $30 billion for our lucrative layoff plan for Pakistan over the next five years & eliminate not only the terrorists org. but the Pak Army incl. of ISI – lock stock & barrel.

Posted by anup | Report as abusive

GEO Pakistan
ISI chief refuses to meet US officials: reports
Updated at: 2238 PST, Tuesday, April 07, 2009
ISLAMABAD: ISI chief Lieutenant General Ahmad Shuja Pasha declined to meet with US special envoy for Pakistan and Afghanistan Richard Holbrooke and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Admiral Michael Mullen here on Tuesday.

According to some reports, he refused to meet the visiting American officials fearing a spanking for the proven involvement in terrorists activities of the ISI.

It may be mentioned here that US envoy Holbrooke and Admiral Mullen, who arrived here on Monday for a two-day visit, held separate spanking sessions with President Asif Ali Zardari, Prime Minister Syed Yousuf Raza Gilani, PML-N chief Nawaz Sharif and Army chief General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani & suja pasha on getting the whiff, has gone into hiding (SWAT) to save his b*tt.

Posted by anup | Report as abusive

I have been reading too many blogs, especially those from Pakistan and the Pakistani diaspora. Here is the sum up of Pakistani view on the terrorism:

If there is a terrorist attack in Pakistan then it is the DREADED FOREIGN HAND’S fault. They all start wailing like “oh my dear brethren…boo hoo hoo! “It is a RAW/Mossad/CIA/MI6/RAW/Mossad/CIA/MI6/RA W/Mossad/CIA/MI6 conspiracy”…”oh no, it is not true”….”oh this” and “oh that.”

Just plain impossible for these guys to admit Pakistan is going through its worst times at the hands of the terrorists they created with a weak, pathetic, corrupt govt at the helm.

They will therefore never admit that on the grounds that the truth will incriminate them.

Posted by bulletfish | Report as abusive

Pakistani Taliban said moving closer to capital (DAWN.com, Wed. 08 April 2009)

I hope what I read (above) is not true.

Posted by bulletfish | Report as abusive

Ladies and Gentlemen, Please do not be too excited about cozy and love relationship between India and USA. India is just benefitting from it while US enemy No. got changed from USSR to Terrorists and China. Terrorists are thread to US interests around the globe while China is an equal threat to US economically.

When USSR existed Pakistan was the main beneficiary of US as it supported US cause against its enemy No 1 (USSR), now if there was no terrorist phenomenon (such as from 1987-1996) then it was China as a No 1 enemy of US and thus India as a No 1 strategic partner. So this conspiracy theory will support Pakistan support behind Taliban to re-engage US interest in Pakistan, but at same time it should tell India that its strategic interest may not last too long.

You all so called new born progressive Indian, you could look at the most recent history of India (from 1947-1990), India was more closed economy than Pakistan despite being a democratic nation with all the resources left from Brits at the time of partition. It is only during recent years, its started to grow at a stable pace, mostly thanks to Afgan and ISI for getting rid of USSR and allowing US to be more interested in India because of China.

Posted by Abid | Report as abusive

Manish
” is it not true that poverty and extremism are the biggest enemy ,of both India and Pakistan, can we unite in this fight against poverty and extremism?”

Yes, you are right, poverty and extremism are the real enemy. Manish, its not me who views India as enemy no.1, there is a history to it. Even if you leave every other thing one side, only the 1971 war is enough for Pakistan to keep fighting with India.
However, yes I agree, Pakistanis and Indians need to forge parternship, develop trust and take confidence building measures.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Abid
I further add to what you have stated, the Indians are dumb and do not know how to play their cards smart. While the US seems willing to accept India as a partner, India will have to contribute towards American interests. India soldiers will be needed to do the dirty work, fighting insurgents in Afghanistan, US will prop India upo against China. Also, the US would like India to focus in resolving regional disputes like Kashmir, here is where things get interesting. When a child is playing with a match stick, even if an elder stops him he says “no, no i am not going to give you”. Finally when the elder is fed up, he simply give him a smack and snatches it. This is what will happen to India.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Abid writes: “Please do not be too excited about cozy and love relationship between India and USA. India is just benefitting from it while US enemy No. got changed from USSR to Terrorists and China. Terrorists are thread to US interests around the globe while China is an equal threat to US economically.”

No one excited about going cozy with the Americans. There are two approaches towards the Americans – Economic relationship and inter-dependency and military dependency. India’s relationship with the US is based on the former. India is not so reliant on the US for its military needs. Pakistan turned into a banana republic because it relied entirely on American dole on military as well as financial fronts for all the sixty years of its existence. So America got used to kicking them around whenever they wanted. Iran threw them out because the US was using the Shah as a puppet. Had that not happened, the US would have taken out the Soviets from the Iranian side of the border.

India does not mind support from others when it matters. Support can be in the form of understanding and other means. Isn’t Pakistan the one asking others to help resolve the Kashmir issue? India does not care and the Americans have agreed to that. The US is still a super power and has an enormous clout in gaining support from other nations to make its needs realized. So one has to be careful in not going against them. After all India’s recent economic boom came mainly from American business.
If America understands India’s stance on Kashmir, why should India refuse it?

Pakistan is beginning to face the reality. Everyone knows that the country is made up of manipulators and liars. They have a President who is number one in both. Truth hurts when it becomes obvious to others. Pakistan should now be careful with the Americans and not the Indians. Otherwise your country faces more problems than solutions. I am reading in many international forums that Pakistan has only about 6 months or so before they fall apart. The only worry India should have now is to prevent terrorist elements from Pakistan in creating havoc during the elections and beyond. And any international support in terms of intelligence and political support will be most welcome. This does not mean we fall at the American’s feet and beg for alms like Pakistanis have been doing all these years. Now I heard your leaders want drones? Wow! Do you think they are going to trust you anymore?

Umair writes: “the Indians are dumb and do not know how to play their cards smart. ”

Thank you for the complement. We are not manipulators. We’d like to be honest and let the truth about ourselves be known openly. We do not run with the hare and hounds at the same time. We’d like to be recognized for being a trustworthy and reliable nation that stands on its own feet.

I do believe that India and the US should forge long term relationship on the economic front. The US has already signed a major nuclear deal with India to help meet its energy needs. I’d like India and the US to co-operate on space explorations and other scientific arenas. Both countries complement each other on these areas. As far defense, India always like to shop around and get the best in the market. And India has been trying to make its needs met by indigenous development at the same time. Mutual economic alliances will help both countries and this should not be wrongly looked at reliance or complete dependence.

Mauryan,
From sixty til todate Pakistan heavily rely on US for military needs because untill disintegration of India daddy “USSR” it was a common norm in the world to join either US or USSR block, and it was natural for India and Pakistan to join two different. Now since there is no mighty USSR, and US interests changes, where second major military challenge for US after USSR is growing China. And that is why until 9/11 US decided to start pating india since India will serve US better when it comes to China, but 9/11 changes world dynamic.

Now US is walking a double edge sword, with feeding a dog to keep in check a growing Giant (china) and at the same time paying ransom to corrupt Pakistani leaders to keep check or get help tam terrorists.

Pakistan disintegration or Indian military support in Afganistan will not be in interest of India and US, since currently killing of Pakistani and Afgani law enforcement personals may not be a favorite task for many Taliban/Jihadis, but if their task is to kill Indian soldiers it may even motivate more people in Afganistan and Pakistan to join hands with these Jihadis. That is the main reason, US DO NOT want Indian soldiers on their side when it comes to fighting muslim terrorists.

Posted by Abid | Report as abusive

Abid
Perfect! you couldnt have summed it much better. Let me add something, while what we have seen in recent years the demise of a Unipolar world, the American empire is on its steady decline where its power is waning and its rivals are rising. Look at the resurgent Russian and assertive Iranians. India has choosen to side with the US at this critical time, the US economy is severyly in recession with no signs of an early recovery.

On the other hand, Pakistan’s strategic relationship with China couldnt have come at a more cruical time. Decades of old Sino-Pak ties have cemented into long-term relationship. The time tested friendship between Pakistan and China saw many events unfold, the aparthied fell in South Africa, the USSR collapsed, Yugoslavia divided, the Berlin wall came down, the world became unipolar. But the ties between Pakistan and China always kept progressing rapidly. Today China is the country with most asset investments in US, where US has a huge debt payable to China, not to mention the trillion of US$ in foreign reserves that China holds. There is no doubt the important role that China will play in future. Pakistan is much better positioned in the light of this. And the relations with Persian Gulf and Arab nations, these are the reasons why India failed to diplomatically isolate Pakisatn one of the things tried recently.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

UMAIR..you wrote……… Even if you leave every other thing one side, only the 1971 war is enough for Pakistan to keep fighting with India…….

I can understand your anguish very well. But the facts are somewhat different. East Pak is not a tiny island; it has same population as west Pak and same religion as well. The language is different; so are the languages within context of west pak. Why should banglas cozy up with India? Germany was divided in a world war by others and later they have been reunited on mutual accord fairly quickly once cold war had ended. If you all like each other who will stop you from forging major alliances and even going for a full-fledged reunification. When Mujibur Rehman was elected to be PM of the combined paks, the poor guy was denied the job and instead was put in prison. The agitation for separation turned violent and promptly banglas were oppressed by Punjabi dominated army with large scale killings, abductions and so forth. This translated into a massive refugee problem which in turn caused throttling demographic and financial strain on india. With its frugal means, at that time, india was not able to handle the job of feeding the refugees with no end in near site. It had to act.

There was clear documentation of historical events about the second division of India (PAK). I will neither deny the indian role writing the mere final page of separation, nor that India ever opposed the idea (of division). As you felt, india isn’t that dumb. But your permanent delusion that its all indias handiwork is another example of a life in eternal denial. You should talk to Bangladeshis yourself who were old enough at that time to grasp the ground reality. On a side note, all indians want Pak to prosper, which will help the entire region big time.

Abid:
“From sixty til todate Pakistan heavily rely on US for military needs because until disintegration of India daddy “USSR” it was a common norm in the world to join either US or USSR block, and it was natural for India and Pakistan to join two different.”

Abid, India has never made or kept relations with a country on the cost of other, before we disintegrated Pakistan in 1971, Mrs. Ghandhi went to USA UK and other countries and done many agreements. She knew your “Master” will come to save its “DOG” no matter how much infected it is. But your master could not save you.

India never risked her sovereignty for a few dollars. Drones from your “Master” are hitting you, and you could not even bark when they are around.

Pakistan heavily relied on USA for military aid and eventually became an HARAMKHOR, India and pakistan got their independence on same day, infact pakistan got its a day earlier. While India developed on its own, pakistan continues to living off aid, went to IMF two times and even today it has an inflation rate of 30%

You are asking more aid, donations, imdad, loan or whatever you call, and on other hand you are telling us that pakistans current position is due to its corrupt leaders.

Get a life

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive

Punjabi yar
mind your language? will you.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Punjabiyaar: Your name says it all so I do not need to reply to you.

Posted by Abid | Report as abusive

Umair states: India soldiers will be needed (by US) to do the dirty work, fighting insurgents in Afghanistan.

Adid says: US DO NOT want Indian soldiers on their side when it comes to fighting muslim terrorists.

Thanx guys

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Abid

You made a slighting remark of *feeding a dog*. Lets talk about the concorde episode for a meaningful diversion here.

I was watching history channels exhaustive work on demise of concorde, the supersonic aircraft (unfortunate end though for a fine aircraft).

A small clip was about an indian aviation minister turning down the CEOs request of airtime (flying rights) in india. The said CEO requested strongly for indian flying rights during night time and india was aware of the problems; and so instead strongly recommended daytime rights. The problem with concorde is that when it flies over a town the entire population feels the supersonic boom just as a close thunder or a bomb explosion if you will ( I have personal experience). The ceo countered that it means it (concorde) has to pass Europe during night and the europeans don’t allow night time rights as the sleeping towns will be startled awake. Then the Indian minister threw him out saying thats ” the very reason iam asking you to reverse the times, so that our people will have sound sleep”. Concorde failed to get flying rights over india. The ceo said india lost money he had offered. India didn’t care it appears. Now you can conclude that there is no foreign food that can please this dog; slumdogs or not it keeps its national interest at the very top.
US had realized this fact firsthand during as well as after the cold war era. The two largest and best democracies have to rely on eachother in this not so democratic world for bettering the latter. Indians do want Pak to prosper for indias benefit.

@“From sixty til todate Pakistan heavily rely on US for military needs because until disintegration of India daddy “USSR” it was a common norm in the world to join either US or USSR block, and it was natural for India and Pakistan to join two different.”
-Abid writes
Abid, are you saying right now Pakistan’s daddy is China. Well I will not disagree a lot on that with the treatment Pres Zardari got in China—promise to visit China 3 (or 4 ?) times a year in spite of the fact that Pres Zardari was not allowed to meet with Chinese high command. You have all the reasons to feel since Pakistan needs pocket money.
More importantly, this international chess board is always running now or in the past. Nations find their own interests that take them on a Progress highway rather than dark bumpy allies. For India, this chess game has taken India on Progress highway and Pakistan sadly is stuck in the dark allies. Umair: you can call Indians dumb and that makes me laugh since that is coming from a Pakistani who has played this smart that Pakistan is where you in reality it is.
Abid, you are right about India-it was closed economy and that the Indian economic surge is more recent, but it is not shear luck—it is planned and is real and is to stay—One can speculate whatever. But China is ahead. It is the peculiar Indian economy that has provided more immunity to Indian banking systems and economy—the controls/oversights.
Abid, what are your thoughts where Pakistan will be from the state it is right now? There are all these # of real issues. Is there some leader who can lead? More specifically, the history has shown that the negative tricks by Pakistan have not worked against India or anyone else, and will not take Pakistan on a path of development—that is a path of stopping others from developing—from Indian POV that –ve proxy wars etc. strategy can slow down India, at best. Is there any chance Pakistan is ready to divorce the terrorists—Asking from both Indian and Pakistani POV. I believe Pakistan needs +ve side not just dependent upon powers—like getting happy because of Chinese $$$$$.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Umair Wrote:
“mind your language? will you.”

One can expect some foul language if you tell Pakistanis who’s their daddy. But not from us. We know we were here even before USSR or USA come into existence. I am using “H” word only because Pakistan is one. See below why I use this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haraam

Haraam applies to ill-gotten wealth obtained through sin. Examples include money earned through cheating, stealing, corruption, murder or any means that involves harm to another human being. It is prohibited in Islam for a true Muslim to profit from such Haraam actions. Any believer who benefits from or lives off wealth obtained through Haraam is not a Muslim.

Pakistan is living off money which is earned through cheating. Pakistan used US money firstly to create terrorists and now they are asking money for eliminating them while supporting terrorism on same time. Thats why I used this for your country.

Sorry Abid/Umair, if I stepped on you tails.

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive

Azaddp: Sorry if you took “DOG” literally, I didn’t mean to use it literally. I would not call a nation or human being a dog. Sorry if I hurt yours or any one else feelings. We could agree to disagree on amny issues but I do not mean to insult any one, rather would keep morals.

Rajeev: As far as China is concern, I will say Pakistan should trust China more than any one else (though in my personal life experiences, I found chinese the least trustworthy people). As far as any Pakistani politician is concern especially Zardari who may have won presidency at the cost of his wife, and brother in law blood, I will not be surprise if a true friend of Pakistani people do not trust them. In fact, corrupt politicians are the reason that Pakistani people and most of the world rely on Pakistan military (though officers are corrupt, but atleast they come out of a desciplined institution so they do not sell Pakistani secrets).

Posted by Abid | Report as abusive

Abid,

India was never relying on the USSR 100% like Pakistan does with the US. It was only a defense relation to counter cold war prejudice. Cold war is over and the USSR is gone. India has progressed beyond expectations. Pakistan on the other hand has degenerated. Do you agree? There is a difference between strategic relationship and dependence. The US has “used” Pakistan for its purposes and will toss is when there is no further use. It did when the Soviets left Afghanistan.

Here is some more news for Pakistanis. Time to celebrate. Your Islamic brothers are getting close to Islamabad. May be Zardari has to shift his capital to Lahore for some time. Then he can move to Hyderabad and then to Karachi. After that to London where he can live with other Pakistani exiles. The US will make a deal with Taliban at that time and the country will be called Bakistan.

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn -content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/paki stani-taliban-said-moving-closer-to-capi tal–qs

And the surrender deals collapses………..
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn -content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/sufi +mohammed+calls+off+swat+peace+deal
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn -content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/nwfp  /militants-seize-more-territory-in-bune r–szh
Does anyone still have any doubt on who calls the shots? Another tactical withdrawl by the “Professional” Paki Army on the offing? With this rate surely soon pakistani army will be tactically withdrawing out of Pakistan.

Posted by chirkut | Report as abusive

Well as far as Zardari and others are concern, they already favor to run Pakistan from Dubai or England as long as Pakistani people blood provide them fuel to enjoy the luxaries of Dubai and UK.

If Altaf Hussain could do it from UK why not Zardari? And I think they are learning this from their long last relations with US. They (Zardaris and co) think if US could rule Pakistan from Washington, why can not they do the same from Dubai or London.

Posted by Abid | Report as abusive

Mauryan:
As far as strategic alliance is concern, initially Pakistan was also a strategic allied with US, but during Afgan war things changed. If you put yourself in Pakistan shoes, you could understand the heat of USSR taking over Afganistan or Afganistan having pro Indian government, while there are still hostilities between Pak and Ind.

We all know since the creation of Pak, IND and PAK are on war terms, and imagine a country with much smaller resources (PAK) than the enemy (IND) having an other enemy (USSR) sitting on an other border (provided USSR was going to control Afganistan). In that scenario, Pakistan would have sandwiched between IND and USSR. Therefore, it was in PAK interest to win more support from others to defend Afganistan and push USSR out of Afganistan. And since US dream was to weaken and humilliate USSR, so both countries went into Afgan war with a mutual interest of pulling USSR out of Afganistan and installing pro PAK govt in Afganistan.

But once US achieved its goal of destroying USSR, they lost interest and left mess (millions of refugees in Pakistan, and total destruction in Afganistan). Additionally, before living Afganistan, they also made sure to get rid of all those Pakistani leaders, who had close tie with Mujahideens and were respected among various Mujahideen factions- mean destruction of Gen Zia along with ISI top brass etc.

Then when US left, it was not possible for Pakistan to feed afgan refugees rather they have to let them spread around the country for making livelihood, since Mujahideens fractions started to fight with each others to control Kabul (Pro Pak + Saudi Arabia group – Sunni + Pukhtoon versus Pro India and Iran group – Shia + Farsi speaking). Now it would have been total loss for Pakistan if Pak was giving up its support to pro PAK group, thus they created Taliban (mainly Pukhtoon and Sunni) to get rid of both groups and install a pro Pak government in Afganistan.

Unfortunately, most of those people were illeducated when it comes to teaching of religion or even worldly knowledge – since most of them were orphans and were taught and raised in free Madrassas. Therefore, instead of providing a fair govt to people and building Afganistan, they started with destroying Statues, and resulted in confrontation with west and thus self destruction.

Now, PAK is stuck on one hand with millions of trained foreign militants (includings Afgans, arabs, african, chychan, Uzbak etc) on its soil and on other hand risk of allowing increased Indian influence in Afganistan that may result in a pro Indian Afgan govt, which may be hostile to Pakistan, thus going back to point zero where it may sandwich between two hostile armies on both sides.

Strategically, this will be in interest of IND (to teach lesson to a life long enemy) and west (since they would like to eliminate only muslim country with Nuke); and thus Pakistan is making all out final efforts to avert such possibility and these terrorists (abudan mujahideens) indirectly working against the cause of muslim world.

Posted by Abid | Report as abusive

Abid,

Let me reiterate since you seem to be a bit reasonable. Pakistani leaders (military especially) should never have looked at India as an enemy. The moment you designate someone as an enemy, you begin to act and a reaction comes from whoever you call as an enemy. Until 1958, India and Pakistan were not that hostile. There were memories of the partition still lingering. However, when Liaqat Ali Khan was murdered with CIA’s influence, and Ayub Khan ascended the throne, everything changed. Ayub Khan was a hard core military man and he had absolute contempt for India. In 1965, he was convinced by Bhutto and others to take on a “weak” India. India was mauled by the Chinese in 1962 and its first Prime Minister had died. No one knew much about the new Prime Minister Shastri. So Pakistan sent its military / Mujahideen machinery into Kashmir. Ayub Khan was thrilled with American supplied Sabre jets and tanks. Little did he expect an Indian retaliation with troops getting close to Lahore. One more week of that war would have choked Pakistan. It is all in the history.

India as an enemy was created permanently in the Pakistani military mindset at that time and it has only worsened with time.

India is not an enemy to Pakistan. If it were, it would have gobbled up Nepal, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Burma etc. India faced serious secessionist challenges at the beginning. In that condition, it would be naive of its leaders to invade and take over another nation. They had their plates full with enough issues.

Pakistani military establishment used Islamic religious superiority, contempt for Indians in general etc to keep up their motives. If the USSR moved in closer, they would have done nothing to Pakistan. They knew Pakistan had a well structured military. They couldn’t have afforded taking in Pakistan. Had Pakistan not turned hostile against India, there would have been no need to worry about two enemies on either side.

Now the country you people relied on all these years, is slowly turning into your own enemy. You people have a lot of soul searching to do. India was turned into an enemy by your manipulative leaders and they still do not realize their mistake.

I totally agree with you on Pakistani military mindset regarding India as enemy No 1. Since we all know you always need a good reason to take money away from welfare projects and spend on piling weapons. Therefore, every military nations has to create an enemy in order to spend those money.

Correct me if I am wrong but like Pakistan, India also created China and Pak as its enemy and kept spending on military, otherwise if South Asian countries live in harmony, they will have much more money for people welfare projects (health, education, infrastructure and poverty alleviation) than buying drone, F-16, F18s.

Personally, I am convinced by keeping Kashmir as a part of India or Pakistan getting Kashmir as a part of India, neither of the countries will gain anything but boost to their ego. Best solution is to recognize held Kashmir as India part and Azad Kashmir as part of Pakistan, and establish this border as international border.

Posted by Abid | Report as abusive

Abid,

I am glad I am discussing with someone who can be reasoned with.

India does not consider China as an enemy either. Countries suspect each other and compete on many fronts. China and India started out at the same time. One took the path of totalitarian governance and the other struggled hard to keep up a Western democratic governance. If Nixon had not gone to China and if Deng Xio Ping had not opened up the economy, China would have turned into a North Korea, magnified a million times.

Similarly if Nehru had died earlier, or if any of the secessionist movements inside India had succeeded within ten years of its formation, India would have ended up on a very different direction. When Indira Gandhi ruled, India almost faced the possibility of dictatorship and splintering up.

Every country has had its moments, but they always happen during infancy stages. After that the country begins to grow in a certain direction. Both India and China managed to get on the path of economic progress.

India did not wage wars on any country on its own. It acted if the situation demanded it. The amount of money and logistics involved in waging even a low intensity asymmetric war costs enormous money. Pakistani military leaders chose the wrong path during its infancy stage. ZA Bhutto had a large mandate in 1971 after Bangladesh seceded and he could have put things in place for Pakistan to progress. Instead he got overly obsessed with nuclear weapons and forgot everything else.

Most new countries, including India, try to build a dam of infrastructure and foundation which regulate the country in its path of economic progress. I am sorry to say that Pakistani leaders spent their entire energy building demolition machines that are good only for breaking things up. This is where the paths diverged. Jinnah and others had no agenda after getting a nation for Muslims. The power vacuum after Jinnah’s death that could not be filled by an able leader. The feudal system which is prevalent in the region did not allow the country to take roots properly. So the foundations became shallow and the tree never grew right.

A tree that does not grow right has shallow roots. And it will fall one day, sooner than normal. This is not my wish. But it is a normal thing that happens to even countries.

I believe Pakistan should seize the initiative. We have followed a myopic policy for more than 60 years and look at what we have achieved.
Lets make a U turn on that. India should be accepted as a neighbour and we have no right to destabilize it or launch any proxy wars because they can do the same.We dont have the resources so it is we who are losing out(good money going after bad).
Now the deal with the militants is also about to finish.Atleast they got a respite from the attacks.These lame duck generals in the army dont realize their blunders ( they just have to save their as_).
Why cant we realize we cant negotiate with these stoneaged people.Just bomb them or isolate them. They will turn against the Taliban or whoever themselves.
The pakistani military thinks India wants to conquer Pakistan and it would be easy to control 180 million people.They have not been able to control a few thousand Taliban and how do they expect India to conquer 180 million people?
All I am saying is lets start a new chapter.All proxy or destabilizing things should end and let peace get a chance and understand the existential threat of these Tribals.Lets throw them out.

Posted by Suleman Maniya,Goteborg,Sweden | Report as abusive

Abid, First Indian PM Nehru was alive for 17yrs after independence. he died after India-China war 1962 started by China.
If you know the following, you will not give a second thought that India made an enemy out of China.
Nehru did the following:
1. Non-aligned Movement
2. Foreign Policy with China based on Five Principles of Co-existence (Panch sheel), despite Chinese invasion of Tibet—China is bigger and an act such as Tibet invasion and Nehru offers co-existence is not small.
3. Indian-Chinese Brother-brother slogan
4. But China annexes Aksai Chin—a portion of Kashmir. Indo-China 1962 war.
5. Indian offers UN permamnent memmbership to China
Quote “In 1953 or so India was offered China’s permanent seat in the UNSC then held by Taiwan but Jawaharlal Nehru rejected it saying that it was an American effort to marginalise the Communist China. In his book Nehru: The Invention of India Shashi Tharoor, a former UN Under-Secretary has also confirmed that Nehru turned down a US offer for India to take Permanent Seat in the Security Council held by Taiwan, and Nehru urged that it be offered to Beijing instead. So India missed a golden opportunity to be in the UNSC as a Permanent Member with veto.”
Now, India along with Brazil, Japan, Germany-(G-4) countries are asking for the permanent membership in UN.
But, China, Pakistan (expectedly) do not support India Quote “On July 26, 2005, five UN Member countries, Argentina, Italy, Canada, Colombia and Pakistan, representing a larger group of countries called ‘Uniting for Consensus’, proposed to General Assembly another plan that maintains five Permanent Members, and raises the number of Non-Permanent Members to 20 from 10. On April 11, 2005, China had ‘endorsed’ this proposal.”

India’s blunder was that it did not think China as an enemy of India. India should have considered that way and today both India and China would have been friends for real—not backstabbing. They lost the trust that time and you know it at pesronal level. But enigmatic Pakistan has no reason to feel India as their enemy. If Pakistanis have learnt 1000yrs of history very well, the modern Indian political system and India’s core foreign policy, the analysis would be that India is not going to attack Pakistan. Hypothetically, any time since 1947 until today, if Pakistan was/is offered on a platter to India with a trillion $$$$, India will reject the offer. Even a block-head would know that Pakistan in general represents a pure population from undivided India that has declared not to co-exist with India, so gobbling it up is a recipe for disaster. It is pity to see the myopic so-called military experts in Pakistan who feel that way and millions following them. It is just not viable for India to have Pakistan as its enemy. India wants stable Pakistan for India’s own interest. It is nice to see Pakistanis like Suleman Maniya and you Abid and some more who think objectively and do not hesitate to express that. I tell you guys if Pakistanis take 1 step forward, Indian people will take 2 steps forward—everyone has had enough of it. Indians know and Pakistanis feel the power of people. It is misperception that Army in Pakistan has saved Pakistan. Rather Pakistan is in bad shape due to Army’s policies. Could it have been worse with civil govt in control for 60yrs—I do not think so. Politics/democracy/corruption mix can be slow but there exists an auto-check system that moves the country forward.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Pakistan still has great people like Imran Khan, Asma Jehangir etc who can reach out to India and get our help. If Imran becomes in charge, trust will grow manifold. He is an honest man and really wants to do something that will make Pakistan a progressive state. He is intelligent, has fantastic leadership qualities, is charismatic, and is incorruptible. I am sure there are more people like him there. I wish Imran rises to the occasion and starts a new alternative that will lead Pakistan out of its misery. If Pakistanis can achieve that, trust me, you will get overwhelming help and good will from us Indians. You people have the resources that will put Pakistan back on track. Unfortunately you have let the villains run your country for too long.

Please tell your friends that Indians are not enemies. We have enough issues already to deal with. We have no time or enthusiasm to engage in any conflict with anyone. Somehow this change in attitude needs to spread quickly through the Pakistani public. The myth has to be broken. Only then the military can be sent back to the barracks. The Americans are not lying when they politely say that ISI is infested with militant Islamic elements. Indian RAW is nothing compared to the ISI.

If you Pakistanis reach out to us, we have nothing but goodwill. But if you sling mud, you will only see that courtesy returned. Is it worth it? Please write in your blogs about breaking the mistrust about India. Most of us do not spend our times planning our assault on Pakistan. The politicians are even worse. They are too busy consolidating their power base and making money. No one wants any war with anyone. Until Mumbai attacks, things had calmed down. IPL was a grand success. India played Australia at home. Everyone was happy. Suddenly everything got reset. It is time to start again.

Mauryan & Rajeev:
I think this change should start from intellectual lot, i am very happy to see such cool mind and sincere voices. But it seems like we have to go a long way before we could be countries like US and Canada. Usually, ego in Pakistani and Indian cultures will force smaller partner to be more stub born, because any compromise on the part of smaller partner is considered as humilliation and weakness while a compromise on a bigger partner part is considered as graciousness and greatness.

I think, India should play more positive rule, and US and other sponsors should push for real changes in term of leadership in Pakistan, and should rather make friendship with Pakistani people than Pakistani leaders.

US should start accepting leaders truely elected by people rather than creating their own partners. I do wish prosperity for all mankind especially for south asia.

Posted by Abid | Report as abusive

Abid,

India has always been warm to countries that have extended their hands of friendship. It trusted China so much that it came as a rude shock when China attacked India in 1962. The trust was complete. The Prime Minister refused to believe that the Chinese may have ulterior plans and did not upgrade the army. He never recovered from that shock and died in 1964.

India’s friendly stance has been seen as a sign of weakness by Pakistan in the past. Indians appeared as weak and unintelligent people to the Punjabi elite in Pakistan. And that is the deep underlying reason for Pakistan’s inability to swallow every defeat at the hands of Indians. It is easy to expect the big brother for making the first move and it has been made many times in the past. Every time trust was tried, we were back stabbed – Kargil is one example. Mumbai attacks is another one. Anyway, past cannot be undone.

This time the seriousness has to come from Pakistanis. It is very rare to see people of your type who are conciliatory in gesture. Most of the time we encounter belligerent and arrogant people who have nothing but contempt towards India. I understand that it comes from ignorance and being closed from seeing the reality.

Even now it is not too late. The vast internet should be used to build friendship between people of the two nations. There is so much to gain by being friendly neighbors. Your businessmen setting up factories in India and vice versa. We know Pakistan’s immense talent in arts, music and sports. Imagine roads and railway tracks going from Chennai or Calcutta all the way to Karachi or Peshawar or even Kabul. Imagine the natural gas and oil pipe lines from Central Asia coming to the refineries in Karachi and then distributed across the sub-continent. Imagine trade, tourism and free movement of people. There is so much to gain and the idiots have ruined it all. We won’t be spending our time blaming each other. We’ll be exchanging recipes instead. It is time the bell is tied to the cat.

Umair wrote:
…the Indians are dumb and do not know how to play their cards smart. While the US seems willing to accept India as a partner, India will have to contribute towards American interests.

-Umair, it is you (and Pakistan) who is dumb. What India has with the USA is purely business and not financial and military aid like your $1.5 billion per year compensation to bury your head in the ground and surrender to Taliban in Swat.

If India does not know how to play its cards right then how do YOU explain India getting a Nuclear Deal with the USA and Pakistan not? Even though Pakistan at the times was ‘helping the USA with its war on terror or ‘Benazir Bhutto’s War’.

India soldiers will be needed to do the dirty work, fighting insurgents in Afghanistan…

-If India soldiers set foot on in Afghanistan then the Taliban in Pakistan will stand ‘shoulder-to-shoulder’ with the Pakistan Army. The USA does not want this and will not do anything to cause it.

US will prop India up against China.

-Really? wow!! Did you read Mr. Holbrooke’s mind? Did he ACTUALLY say this?

Also, the US would like India to focus in resolving regional disputes like Kashmir, here is where things get interesting.

YOU have got absolutely nothing to GLOAT about, Umair, especially when you have the Taliban from Swat muscling in closer to Islamabad. On top of that Islamabad created the Taliban for reasons of ‘strategic depth’ in Afghanistan. But now it finds that Frankenstein is killing the master. Pakistanis are dying by the dozen.

This is what Holbrooke said about India and Afghanistan:
“We can’t settle issues like Afghanistan without India’s full involvement,” he said. “India’s Afghanistan aid program parallels U.S. priorities.”

This is what Holbrooke said about India and Pakistan on the Kashmir issue:
‘We won’t push India for resuming talks with Pak’, says Holbrooke.

Holbrooke, however, acknowledged that the center of terrorism threat lies in Pakistan.

(from DAWN.com)
-Pakistan will have to undertake not to support any person or group involved in activities meant to hurt India and to allow US investigators access to individuals suspected of engaging in nuclear proliferation if it wants to qualify for a threefold increase in US economic assistance. The clause requiring such a pledge is incorporated in a bill moved in the US House of Representatives on April 2, seeking to provide $1.5 billion of annual assistance to Pakistan for a period of five years.

This means that Pakistan will have to ban all Kashmir groups involved in armed struggle in the valley against India.

Clause (K) of the bill binds Pakistan to ensure access of US investigators to ‘individuals suspected of engaging in worldwide proliferation of nuclear materials, and restrict such individuals from travel or any other activity that could result in further proliferation.’

Posted by bulletfish | Report as abusive

I just finished reading the book titled, “Jihad,” by famous Pakistani writer Ahmed Rashid. In that he writes about the sinister growth of the ISI. The Central Asian republics, after the collapse of the Soviet Union, experienced a serious power vacuum. Islamic radicalism filled up that vacuum due to the proximity of Afghanistan and Al Qaeda. Pakistan’s ISI played a major role in bringing in Wahabbi preachers, books and sponsored the construction of hundreds of mosques within a short period of time. The Tajiks were going along well until the Taliban rose to power in Afghanistan. ISI began to back the Taliban and it was not viewed well in Central Asia. Nawaz Sharif, the then Prime Minister made a trip to Central Asia to expand business related to oil, pipelines etc. The ISI shot it down and wanted to build the relationship based on Islamic renaissance. Sharif was removed from power by a coup by this time.

Those who swear that the ISI was only an intelligence organization will have to think. This institution had grown beyond its boundaries into a nation maker according to its ideology. Once ideology becomes the driving force, the growth becomes sinister. It is ideology that has driven ISI and hence Pakistan to its present state. Some of the Central Asian republics are broke. Of course there is Russia’s insistence of the pipe lines going through its territory at the price it sets.

In my opinion, this war on terror in Afghanistan will turn into a war on oil and ideology and burn until all the oil is drained off. I see no end in sight. I hope the Pakistanis rise against the control that the ISI has over them and their elected leaders.

Mauryan wrote:
“Pakistan still has great people like Imran Khan, Asma Jehangir etc who can reach out to India and get our help.”

Mauryan, i think your mentality of agian and again asking Pakistan to get help from India seems you feel Pakistan is too weak, helpless, faltering. That Pakistan is begging to get help from India.
My man, never, we dont need clutches to walk, we dont need India’s help at all. You guys just help yourselves out of poverty and communal violence and corruption. Take care of your own lot, Pakistan is in extremely safe hands and doing pretty well. We will lend you our help if you guys want.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Mauryan writes:
“Those who swear that the ISI was only an intelligence organization will have to think. This institution had grown beyond its boundaries into a nation maker according to its ideology. Once ideology becomes the driving force, the growth becomes sinister. It is ideology that has driven ISI and hence Pakistan to its present state. Some of the Central Asian republics are broke. Of course there is Russia’s insistence of the pipe lines going through its territory at the price it sets. ”

Mauryan I am absolutely appalled by the obsession Indians generally have with the ISI. For so much ISI bashing I can tell you you guys owe it to ISI for everything. The US uses leverage over Islamabad to tame ISI for anti- India activities, otherwise you cant even imagine what ISI can unleash upon you. First let India prove itself that its not Pakistan’s enemy, than ISI will soften upo against India. Until now we havent seen the attitude change in India, same old mentality. Unless you guys show humility, ISI will keep breathing down your necks.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

@The US uses leverage over Islamabad to tame ISI for anti-India activities, otherwise you cant even imagine what ISI can unleash upon you.
-POSTED BY UMAIR

-If ISI is unleashed in India, there will be a lot of collateral damage in Pakistan, through these very actions. I think u need to identify the friends and enemy in this mess.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Umair,
just for facts, many in India have not heard of ISI. ON the other hand, although RAW is inactive for last ~15yrs in Pakistan, I imagine RAW is known by every Pakistani–correct me if I am wrong.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Umair writes: “My man, never, we dont need clutches to walk, we dont need India’s help at all. You guys just help yourselves out of poverty and communal violence and corruption. Take care of your own lot, Pakistan is in extremely safe hands and doing pretty well. We will lend you our help if you guys want.”

We sure need your help. Thanks for coming forward. Here is the list:

1. Dismantle LeT and hand over all their leaders to Indian authorities for Mumbai attack investigation.

2. Send Dawood Ibrahim back to India to complete 1993 Mumbai blasts.

3. Close down all terrorist training camps that are targeting India.

4. Clean up your Madrasas and build modern schools.

5. Change your history text books that contain lies about your country’s achievements.

6. Denuclearize and hand over all facilities to international authorities.

7. Get out of Afghanistan.

8. Give up claims to Kashmir. Honor 1972 Simla accord.

9. Agree to the self determination of Balochis and give their nation back to them. Balochistan never wanted to be a part of Pakistan and it was annexed forcibly by Pakistan’s military in 1947. Read about its history on the internet.

10. Most of all learn to trust India and stop believing that Indians are your enemies.

Complete all this and then we will have a friendly chai in Lahore.

Umair writes: “The US uses leverage over Islamabad to tame ISI for anti- India activities, otherwise you cant even imagine what ISI can unleash upon you. First let India prove itself that its not Pakistan’s enemy, than ISI will soften upo against India.”

ISI has been trying to play a lead role for the Islamic world. Anti India activity is probably about 50%. The remaining was directed at expanding Pakistan’s influence in Afghanistan and Central Asia. That’s none of our business. But with the actions in Afghanistan and Central Asia completely curtailed, only anti-India actions remain. And the ISI is trying to deflect American advance by triggering violence inside India – Mumbai is a classic example of this. There will be more coming. The more they do it, the more they will be zeroed in, especially by the Americans. They have realized that ISI is the core of the problem and they will do something about it if it does not get rid off the elements that are sustaining their anti-Indian and pro-jihadist policies. And American financial aid has been tied to non-activities inside India. At some point, the ISI will become isolated.

We are concerned about the ISI because it has become like the drug cartels in South and Central America. These cartels run countries rather than recognized governments. This means, a legitimate government like the US cannot do business with it, since the legitimate government is not the ISI. Americans cannot contain drug traffiking across their borders and are concerned about it a lot. This does not mean they are afraid of them. Likewise, India is concerned about the ISI, but do not think your ISI is feared. Don’t people avoid criminals? Does that mean they are afraid of them? No. ISI has become a criminal organization. You may think otherwise. But no one cares. Tomahawk is headed towards your ISI head quarters in the near future. Take nice pictures of it now itself. You won’t have it standing for too long.

Mauryan My Answers:

1. Dismantle LeT and hand over all their leaders to Indian authorities for Mumbai attack investigation.

2. Send Dawood Ibrahim back to India to complete 1993 Mumbai blasts.

3. Close down all terrorist training camps that are targeting India.

4. Clean up your Madrasas and build modern schools.

5. Change your history text books that contain lies about your country’s achievements.

6. Denuclearize and hand over all facilities to international authorities.

7. Get out of Afghanistan.

8. Give up claims to Kashmir. Honor 1972 Simla accord.

9. Agree to the self determination of Balochis and give their nation back to them. Balochistan never wanted to be a part of Pakistan and it was annexed forcibly by Pakistan’s military in 1947. Read about its history on the internet.

10. Most of all learn to trust India and stop believing that Indians are your enemies.
———————————————————-

1. Not possible before we sign an extradition treaty.

2. Pakistan is member of interpol, send an official request to interpol and we will handover Dawood Ibrahim to interpol since there is no extradition treaty with India.

3. Close down all Indian consulates in Afghanistan that are targeting Baluchistan.

4. Madrassa reforms started back by President Musharraf, most of them are teaching computers, foreigners are documented etc. Higher education commision is looking after higher ed, while the government in Punjab offers free text books. We are working to upgrade our education sector.

5. Pakistan is a great country with many achievements, Olympic Gold medals, Physics Nobel Laurets, Mens hockey world champions, Cricket thrillers, sports enthusiasts, etc. We are proud to be Pakistanis and history will repeat itself. We will reclaim our lost titles one by one.

6. Nuclear weapons are the right of a soverign nation like Pakistan facing multiple enemies. IAEA(Intl. Atomic Energy Agency) is there, complain to them if you feel threatened.

7. With an estimated total population of 42 million, Pashtuns are the world largest ethnic group 28 million settled in Pakistan while 13 million in Afghanistan. The Durand line is not a proper recognized border. Pakistan and Afghanistan are almost one and the same country.

8. Kashmir runs in our blood, it is our Jugular vein, we cannot betray 80,000 martyred freedom fighters. Respect the UN security council resolutions on Kashmir.

9. The sun of colonialism has disappeared below the horizon for ever, Pakistan is a nation of 170 million muslims, Sindhi Baluchi Kashmiri, Punjabi, Pathans, we are one under one flag. Any attempt to create destablization in Baluchistan will be met with full force. Baluchis are proud Pakistanis.

10. Actions speak louder than words, dont scream on top of your voice, take concrete actions on ground. Apprehend hindu fundamentalists like Col. Purohit of Indian Army who bombed and killed Pakistani citizens in Samjhota Express train.

Even after all these differences I am prepared to come down Mumbai and bring some snacks. If you choose to prepare some tea, our meeting will remain pleasent.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Mauryan you are unaware of the reach of ISI, during the Bosnian war when Serbs perpertrated worst genocide of 8000 muslims in Srebrenica when Bosnians were besieged in Sarajevo for 43 months, when they used to go out of their house to get bread Serb snipers gunned them down. Under Lt. Gen Javed Nasir, ISI shipped Anti Tank Guided Missiles(ATGMs) the ship was intercepted. The arms confiscated and investigated and found to be shipped by ISI for muslim brothers in Bosnia. Undettered the ISI airdropped ATGMs in Bosnia and they broke free the siege and fought back Serb tanks and artrillery.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javed_Nasir
Where was Europe and America the so called champions of human rights and democracy. Why did the Dutch coward Army(UN Peacekeepers) withdraw from UN safe houses during Bosnian war? Why did Radovan Karadzic and Gen. Ratko Mladic single out 8000 muslim men and killed them and carried out genocide in the heart of europe.

ISI is being made an escapegoat for US failures in Afghanistan. Most of CIA officers work under the ISI, remember one thing Mauryan, just google AFGHAN JIHAD and read the whole article. Google OPERATION CYCLONE the longest covert operation by CIA to arm Mujahideen against soviets, that was implemented onground by ISI. ISI was given billions of dollars, ISI called the shots, chose which pro-Pakistan Mujahideen factions to arm and which not. ISI literally controlled entire Afghan war strategy to bleed the soviets out of Afghanistan. The US knows the moment it locks a missile on ISI headquarters on Islamabad, it will be bled to death in Afghanistan.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Umair boasts: “you are unaware of the reach of ISI”

Of course I am aware of the reach of the ISI. That is why I want it dismantled and buried. What does Pakistan think of itself? An imperial super power that has to be operating everywhere? Who is your country trying to imitate? Pakistan can never equal the USA and the ISI is no CIA. So stay confined to your borders and do something constructive. If ISI is such a benevolent institution, ask them to volunteer for Mother Teresa charity in Calcutta.

Umair writes again: “ISI is being made an escapegoat for US failures in Afghanistan. Most of CIA officers work under the ISI, ”

US has not finished its business in Afghanistan or Pakistan. So wait patiently. They will kick your rear end soon. CIA officers work under the ISI? Remove that blind fold and take a look around. ISI building is now a target for a Tomahawk missile. Try not being anywhere near it when it hits. I want to send your comments to the Colbert show in the US. He will have the audience laughing away to glory.

If you talk too much, the US will send your women to college. Remember that.

Mauryan
If missiles and B-52 could defeat nations and conquer countries then by now US should have already cleaned up Afganistan, and should have pumped out all oil from Iraq. But if you rewind your clock to 1979 and watch history unfolded in slow motion, you could understand what US could do with all their weapon and what can ISI do with all its tactics.

Its not that US or India are very patienate or very civilized that they want to resolve issues through dialogue or through someone else force such as Pak should dismental ISI or NATO/PAK should help kill terrorists, rather it is because India know ISI power and US also get to know ISI during Afgan war, and also both countries leadership did learn good lessons from various conflicts around the world.

In Pakistan, atleast people have a uniting force, and that is faith in ISlam, while in India, it is like a closed can of worm, if you leak it from somewhere, it will follow same path as USSR.

Posted by Abid | Report as abusive

Abid,
we in India are humans. We would rather not unite under rabid religious fervour, that too an Islamic one which is as supremacist as it gets. Sorry, we would like to live like humans and not like religious automatons.

Abid,
you did get me to think about what really binds us in India –

Is it the spirit of humanness – love, affection, tolerance, co-existence?
Is it peace, progress, dynamism and economic empowerment?
Is it history, culture, traditions, music and food?
We got it all. People better than me can perhaps answer better.

India not the enemy, U.S. tells Pakistan

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Hima Bindu:
Everyone who willingly decided to be part of Pakistan in 1947 indirectly stated that they will not co-exist with India since they are Muslims. 1 billion Indians are co-existing very well. Muslims killed more Muslims in divided Pakistan than all the minorities in India. Those who cannot co-exist side-by side cannot co-exist as neighbors; hard for them to understand Indian diversity and the Indian political sytem. what they think is India’s weakness is in fact India’s strength. Radical Islam/Zia/Army/ISI/coups/non-democratic political system/terrorism as permanent tool—Oh my Pakistan has long way to go. God bless Pak.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Hima Bindu
To me among your options only “history, traditions, music and food” make sense to be uniting bond among indian.

Posted by Abid | Report as abusive

Abid,
Thanks for vindicating Rajeev!

Posted by chirkut | Report as abusive

Abid writes: “If missiles and B-52 could defeat nations and conquer countries then by now US should have already cleaned up Afganistan, and should have pumped out all oil from Iraq. But if you rewind your clock to 1979 and watch history unfolded in slow motion, you could understand what US could do with all their weapon and what can ISI do with all its tactics.”

War has changed a lot compared to yesteryears. To gain ground in far away lands, air force plays a major part. First clean out the enemy territory by using smart bombs that take out key installations, air ports, runways, air defense systems, intelligence buildings, undergroun bunkers, roads, bridges etc. Keep bombing until the military in the enemy territory goes clueless about how to retaliate. Leadership runs out of ideas and find hiding spots. At this time, surround with ground forces and move them in carefully in stages. This is phase II of the war. And how long it achieves the objectives depends upon the terrain, knowledge of the terrain etc.. In some countries the people look for outside forces to come and liberate them. In such cases, as soon as the ground forces arrive, the game is over. Liberation of Bangladesh is an example. The end of Khmer Rouge when Vietnam sent its troops is another.

In some places, the ground forces have to build the bridges of trust, reliability and provide a system that was absent prior to the war. The British were welcomed into the Indian sub-continent in many places because they provided an administrative system that helped the common people more. The zameendars and feudal lords, kings etc had turned indifferent in many places and spent their money and times waging wars. This takes a lot of time. When religion, culture are totally alien, the ground forces need a lot of time to understand and respect the locals and reach out to them.

In today’s war strategies, a small enemy tries to thwart the efforts of the invaders by engaging in insurgency in order to prevent them from setting up a system in place that is acceptable to the locals. It is easy to damage buildings, create panic and disappear than build a government. The efforts of the American led coalition in Afghanistan is getting slowed down due to this problem. The mistake they made was walk into Iraq for no reason, when Afghanistan needed 100% attention. But they are back now with full effort. So it will bear effort slowly.

At this time Pakistan should be careful not to give safe haven to the militants who are trying to destabilize the efforts of the allies in getting Afghanistan back on its feet. This is where the association and support of the ISI is being realized. It would be good for the Pakistani military to get rid off the jihadist elements inside the ISI and cleanse it completely. I think the Americans know pretty much everything about the ISI. They just want the Pakistanis to clean up for themselves. If they are not being sincere in their efforts, the Americans will do it for them. That was my point.

@Abid
“Hima Bindu
To me among your options only “history, traditions, music and food” make sense to be uniting bond among indian.”

–Yes, & having a bondage of religious bigotry, tyranny & terrorism are alien to our culture.

Posted by anup | Report as abusive

Rajeev

—Read this – what umair was upto on May 12, 2007 in Karachi…

http://www.chowk.com/articles/11978

“Here in Karachi, we avoid ‘name calling’ and ‘finger pointing’ due to fear of having our knees drilled…”
“On May 12, 2007, Karachi witnessed orchestrated mayhem. Such carnage is hardly unique to Karachi or to Pakistan — law enforcement agencies have stood by and even participated in worse massacres elsewhere, like Northern Ireland and Gujarat, India.”

Posted by anup | Report as abusive

Mauryan,
I will say it is more of your dream than point but based on my last 15+ years experience of interaction with many educated americans, I could say with confidence that US do want to weaken terrorists to the point that they should not be any serious threat to US. But as far as going all the way to bomb Pakistan and destroy them, I do not think in presents world any country will do any such mistake.

Any chance of such adventure was very eminent soon after 9/11 but Musharaf being a military person, played very smartly and rather cashed the situation. Unfortunately, he could not stayed focused on his real task rather joined hands with curropt politicians (PML-Q and MQM) and in order to cash more money from US, he waged a war against Pukhtoons and Baluch, thus reached to his conclusion.

Posted by Abid | Report as abusive

Abid,

It is not my wish that Americans go to war with Pakistan. War is evil and it never brings an end to anything. I taunt people like Umair just to irritate them. Please do not take my words literally. I am a spiritual person and will not want to see innocent people die for no reason. No one on blogs can do anything other than vomit whatever they want. I have very good friends who are from Pakistan and we never talk India-Pakistan politics when we meet.

I finished reading the book, “Front line Pakistan,” by Zahid Hussein, a reputed writer. What he describes about the issues in Pakistan are incredibly complex. I don’t think one can point a finger at anyone or anything for today’s status. Though there is a common dislike and mistrust towards India in most Pakistanis, the factional issues confronting the nation are too many. I began to feel sorry for Musharraf as I read the book. He had to balance his act and walk on a thin rope. He had the Americans breathing down his shoulders. As a patriotic Pakistani, he had to protect his nation first. Whatever he did turned a lot of militant factions against him. There were assassination attempts on his life. Interestingly he was tipped off by the Indian intelligence agency when the first attempt was made by HuJ and he managed to escape from that. He had to tell the Kashmiri militants that Pakistan will not be supporting their efforts as per American orders and he managed to handle it very well. That changed his perspective on what needs to be done with India. He started the back channel diplomacy with India’s Prime Minister and they came very close to offering a revolutionary breakthrough on Kashmir. The effort taken by the Pakistani military against Al Qaeda in Karachi and other areas that broke their backs is very well described. It was not an easy thing to do, considering the fact that there are a lot of sympathizers for these organizations within the Pakistani establishment. But after reading this book, I’d say Musharraf did a commendable job. His position weakened considerably after making a U turn on Kashmir and he lost support from his military sub-ordinates. The author clearly shows the menace that is beginning to eat Pakistan from within. I wish you guys all the best in defeating the jihadi cancer and eradicating it completely. I don’t think it is a good idea for us Indians to do anything other than offer moral support. The US is going after the ISI, because without cleansing the ISI of militant elements, it would be impossible to get their objectives met in Waziristan. The democratic government is a puppet and changes have to come from within. I have begun to read Ahmed Rashid’s work, “Descent into chaos.” I am sure that will offer me more insights. I do not envy you guys. You do have a serious problem and I hope you will defeat it.

I just now finished reading about Ojhri Camp Incident. An army depot in Ojhri caught fire and rained missiles and shells in Islamabad and Rawalpindi area. Some 5k people had died in the accident.
Not many indians know it and not many pakistani discuss it.
Paki govt have kept the whole issue under wrap (Just like BB murder)
A book called “Bear Trap” throws some light (or conspiracy theory) that the Ammunition was destroyed by Pak Army (Yes the same Professional army of Umair) to escape scrutiny by the Americans of missing arms. And hence the findings were never made public.

The Army that Pakistani thinks are their protectors killed 5k innocent Pakistanis!

Posted by chirkut | Report as abusive

chirkut

—Oh, this is normal in Pakistan, don’t be surprised even if they ‘nuke’ themselves just for the heck of it…

Posted by anup | Report as abusive

“The Army that Pakistani thinks are their protectors killed 5k innocent Pakistanis!”

Did they blame RAW for it ??

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive

punjabiyaar

—Oh, ask umair & he’ll say 5k pakistani lives are short change for the Pak Army…(they have a monumental task of eliminating 170m. pakis, poor guys begging India to help but we won’t oblige, so they turned towards the Americans for help & they’re obliging them & also target practicing with their drones..lol)

Posted by anup | Report as abusive

Sanjeev new topic: Pakistan within months of collapse.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/warning-that -pakistan-is-in-danger-of-collapse-withi n-months-20090412-a40u.html

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

It all started when Stinger missiles were found in Iran. US at that time had given Stinger to only Israel and Pakistan (to be used in Afghanistan). So US sent auditors to both countries to find out how the stinger had reached Iran. When the US auditors plane was touching Rawalpindi the Ammunition depot caught fire.

There are two major line of thinking on who was behind the sabotage. One theory says that Pak Army did it. Some say in order to keep stinger missiles for themselves. So they moved the missiles away before putting fire to the depot. The other deviation is that the missile was sold to Iranian by the “Professional army” in the black market to line their pocket. and hence they destoryed the evidence.

The other theory peddled by paki chauvinist is that Pak army cannot do this thing to their country and it was done by CIA to leave nothing to Pakistan after end of Afghan war. This theory however fails to explain how stinger reached Iran.

Some days after that Haq’s plane crashed allegedly sabotaged by CIA.

Posted by chirkut | Report as abusive

Punjabiyaar writes: “Pakistan within months of collapse”

Let us not wish for it. This kind of collapse will not be controllable and might pose a dangerous threat to the whole region. I’d prefer a controlled split up of Pakistan into many countries, just to save the world. I don’t think Pakistanis themselves are capable of saving themselves and others. The US cannot go it alone in its efforts. I needs to call for a meeting of world powers – China, Russia, UK, France, India, Japan and propose a plan that will save the world and moderate Pakistanis who are helpless. If you read the works by Pakistani authors like Tariq Ali, Ahmed Rashid etc., the ground reality has gone beyond any redemption. Religious zeal is worse than the nuclear weapons. Look at the attitude of vermin like Umair. They are educated, but have shown the attitude of religious bigots. Pakistan is beginning to change into a country similar to Hitler’s Nazi Germany where hatred for others fuels unity and motivates them for nothing but war. I see all symptoms of degeneration. Just like they broke the back of Nazis, world powers have to break the back of Islamic radicalism. It has lost self control and will burn the world if not curtailed. Cutting up Pakistan into smaller nations will help in isolating problem areas and focus the energy more efficiently there. I think most issues are erupting from the Punjabi heartland and Pashutnistan. The other areas seem somewhat reasonable. Though I do not like to see this, I see no other alternative.

Sorry it was global watcher. Sorry Punjabiyaar.

Mauryan,

What ever it takes for the world to be safe from Extremist Islam in Pakistan. The U.S., along with the UN and its allies have to seriouly discuss a controlled Balkanized disintegration or a controlled failure of Pakistan.

Basically the Army is inept and corrupt and lack the ability to rule, as they only rule it for their own profit. The civilians in Pakistan seem to favour radicalization and Islam over their own sovereignty and a Radical Islamic Pakistan is unacceptable to the World as a Radical Islamic government would purge the Army of any common sense or moderates who may be there, especially the ones controlling the nukes.

When Pakistan does fail, it will be sudden and take everybody by surprise as hundreds of Taliban cells awake at the same time, all around Pakistan. India, the U.S. and the world need to be ready for this.

It will be dirty, bloody and messy. It is like a Tsunami out at sea, which is coming inland. It cannot be stopped but we can take steps to limit the damage as much as possible.

India, the US and its allies need to be prepared to be in a state of high operational readiness with the Army, Navy and Marines, should Pakistan collapse. The plan to get those nukes must be ready to be acted upon quickly and swiftly.

I think Barack Obama is too late. If Bush had of finished Afghanistan and Pakistan right after 911, reforming and mending Pakistan’s ways would have been much easier at that time and would have strengthened Pakistan into a more stable democracy. But now most efforts will fruitless.

It appears that the Islamic experiment has come to an end. Islamic countries cannot have nukes. If they do, Pakistan is the result.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

@Mauryan,

One more thing, whatever the U.S. and India are going to do with Pakistan, with regards to the nxkes, it is best to do it now. It makes little sense to be reactive and make a plan when the disaster strikes. Better any action be proactive than reactive. It will save much more lives in the end.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

Sanjeev, new topic, Pakistan on verge of collapse, please see.

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/world/s tory.html?id=1485665

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

Global Watcher @Mauryan,
One more thing, whatever the U.S. and India are going to do with Pakistan, with regards to the nxkes, it is best to do it now. It makes little sense to be reactive and make a plan when the disaster strikes. Better any action be proactive than reactive. It will save much more lives in the end.
- Posted by Global Watcher
US had lost a unique opportunity to do the above in the immediate aftermath of 911, when the entire world stood by it, since it was seen as the worst victim of terror. The diplomatic activity was so intense the then PM of India, Vajpayee, went on national TV mentioning of “tough times ahead” in preparation for an inevitable regional war. Obviously, US wanted to use indian airfields/soil to take out paks strategic assets first, before launching an attack on afghan. After all, Afghans ruling govt (of Taliban) was the brainchild of Pak. Quickly, then, Mushy had chickened out with this development and you know the rest of the story.

The myriad of problems pakis riddled with has no easy or quick solution. More bloodshed and drama is to unfold in near future, resulting in its case for aid gaining an upswing. The fact of the matter is that paks should accept the conditional aid from USA for their survival. In turn, paying a price of getting all the beating from taliban/ al qaidas anti national agenda, who declared us as their enemy. Pak wont fall or fail folks, there will be internal mayhem notwithstanding. Symptoms of disaster striking the region will be pronounced way ahead of the said fateful day. So there is time to act- it is too soon today to act as there is a price tag attached to this kind of intervention. For now the army, ISI and civil administration, collectively, are still in control of the country. All that they have to do is to keep Taliban/ alqaida in good humor.

Forced marriage can not last forever, Baloch leaders are ruthlessly eliminated on a large scale, they will act soon. Thus, another split is a feasible option and will contain the terror in the region, as each segment of pak has a different political ideology their future global agenda will look like more talk and less action. Its that much hilarious that paks demand more land from neighbors when they can not keep what already is theirs. Splitville is the best recourse. World will be a safer place.

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn -content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/colu mnists/irfan-husain-the-high-cost-of-sur render

Dawn also says that India is not the enemy, it is Taliban et al.—–
“Imagine too that the enemy’s stated goal is nothing short of the capture of state power. Surely these acts would have constituted a declaration of war.

In this scenario, all political parties would have united to face this aggression. The media would have been full of patriotic songs and messages to urge the nation to support the government and the military in defending Pakistan. And above all, the armed forces would not have hesitated in playing their role.

Anybody suggesting a dialogue with the invader, or justifying the attack, would be denounced as a traitor and a defeatist.

So my question is why isn’t all this happening now? True, the aggressors are mostly home-grown terrorists, but the damage they have been inflicting is just as lethal as any bombs dropped from the skies. Their acts must, under any definition, count as an open declaration of civil war. And yet, wide sections of public opinion and the media are sitting on the fence. Many leading politicians have yet to publicly denounce the Taliban as enemies of the state. And the army has yet to demonstrate that it is serious about fighting this war.”

About Pakistan demanding free flow of US$$$$$ into pakistan “But as we are about to discover, there really is no such thing as a free lunch.”

If you’ll Qn Nawaz Sharif about Taliban, you’ll not get to interview him.—–
“One senior journalist in Islamabad told me that when reporters seek an interview with Nawaz Sharif, they must first agree not to ask any direct questions about the Taliban. If this is true, it shows that the PML-N leader does not want to either condemn or support the jihadis openly. Being a canny politician, he does not wish to alienate his core support among reactionary elements. Nor does he want to upset Washington. But wars are not won through such tactical hedging”

One good thing-slogan is there
“One positive outcome of this atrocity coming to public knowledge is that it has opened many eyes to the reality of the Taliban, and what they represent. The flogging has ignited protests across the country. I participated in one in Lahore last week. I was glad to see that apart from many old friends, a large number of young people and students also took part in the march. One popular slogan was: ‘Pakistan kay do shaitan: fauj aur uskay Taliban’ (‘Pakistan’s two demons: the army and its Taliban’). My favourite banner at the rally asked: ‘$12 billion in aid to fight terrorism. Where is it?’ Where indeed?”

Clearly, the establishment is not enjoying having its reluctance to fight held up under a spotlight. As in the past, it wants the promised flow of dollars to remain unimpeded by any serious questions about its will to carry the fight to the Taliban. Our television warriors echo this sentiment, and demand that the country should not follow ‘American dictates’.

According to a recent article in Der Spiegel, the respected German daily: ‘The (Pakistan) military avoids serious confrontation with the extremists. Many officers still do not see the Taliban as their enemy. Pakistan’s true enemy, in their view, is India… Quite a few officers say that the fight against terrorism in the north-western part of the country is being forced upon them by the Americans and that they are fighting the wrong war…. A Pakistani two-star general candidly explained the mindset of his fellow military commanders … noting that although the army is fighting the Taliban at the instructions of politicians, it also supports the militants….’

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Pakistan is beginning to look like a mental asylum that is being taken over by the patients. It sure has doctors, security guards etc, but they are busy throwing the chairs at each other. To the outsiders, it is difficult to make out who is mentally delinquent and who is not. It is beginning to go out of control exponentially.

So if India gets affected in the bargain, our leaders should not retaliate directly with the military. The military should be used to defend our territories as much as possible, while covert operations are launched in order to speed up the disintegration of Pakistan. In this regard, India might have to go to bed with other countries for controlling the damage to the minimum.

I think time has come to a point where moderate Pakistanis will have no control over their nation with madmen expanding into their powerful systems of defense and intelligence. They have no nation. They have the military, intelligence and a dangerous radical ideology. The three are like nitroglycerine, fuse and flame put together. They do not like the Americans closing in. And they are frustrated. Before that frustration turns into an ire over India for no reason, our government must start preparing itself for the next course of action. They should not wait for the occasion to present itself.

I do wish well for moderate people everywhere. But Pakistan today is better than Pakistan tomorrow. And it will get worse with time as things escalate. If the Taliban manages to get hold of Islamabad, civil was will erupt. Military will be divided between moderates and the supporters of radicalism. The latter will gain upper hand. This will prevent Pakistan from working with the US in capturing Bin Laden. So the US might run into Waziristan and burn its hands. There are going to be many battles see-sawing between the various parties involved. If the US grows impatient, it might promote another military take over that gets to suppress all the uprising brutally. This gamble will fail and the US might decided to go after the nukes. Chaos will erupt that might bring China into the picture. China wants Pakistan to be backwards and as its regional lackey. The US might act in a hurry seeing China. This means a direct attack on Pakistan’s defense installations and infrastructure. This will lead to the final and bloody disintegration of Pakistan by 2012. If China acts quickly, the US and China might face each other too.

We must see what India must do. Hope our leaders rise to the occasion and keep the country prepared to face the situation that is going out of control. It doesn’t matter what lunatics like Umair might say. A mental patient will never admit he is mental. To him thing will appear as normal. One has to view things from outside.

Brace yourself for the worse things to come.

@Hima Bindu
To me among your options only “history, traditions, music and food” make sense to be uniting bond among indian.
- Posted by Abid

–Abid, so clearly u do not know India then. Even based on above, food, traditions, music are not the uniting bond. Food varies in every 100-500Km. Traditions too if u look at the diversity—Among Hindus itself from place to place. Music in South (carnatic) and North (Hindustan Classical) are entirely different. Besides many do not understand classical and the folk music varies.

The obviously existing Indian unity is strong and lies in its diversity at all levels and one finds his/her o

–Abid, so clearly u do not know India then. Yes History is mostly common–Indian independence for example—many contributed for that cause. But food, traditions, music are not shared by all Indians. Food varies every 100-500Km. Same with the traditions. Music in South (carnatic) and North (Hindustan Classical) are entirely different, besides how many really know the technicalities of the music. Folk music/dance varies also.

I can understand if some non-Indian is struggling to understand the mystery behind the obviously existing Indian unity. Simply it lies in the diversity at all levels and independence to practice and maintain it. Even before 1947 the co-existence has come naturally to Indians due to increasing pluralism; co-existence is the survival mechanism, better still the way to progress. It is not a post-1947 phenomenon. Post-1947, Indians of all religions owe a lot to Indian constitution too. Despite all the possible negative factors the political system has, it has checks and balances that ultimately does not let the unity break. I have Muslim friends from different parts of India—North India (UP) and Tamil. They are so different but just very Indian like any one else and speak local language and participate in the customs of non-Muslims; same goes for Parsis, Sikhs and Christians. So for Indians, 1947 has just been another date. The way I look at it is that since it is not possible to narrow down the unity and the bonds to few factors, it is not possible to break it.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Ahmed Rashid in his book, “Descent into chaos” says that the Western powers should not have focussed just on Afghanistan. He says the whole region covering Central Asian states, Afghanistan and Pakistan need a Marshall plan to restructure everything, take away tyrants and religious extremists and put modern governments in place. Central Asia has been sitting on top of huge oil and natural gas reserves and Russia has kept them backward in order to exercise control over them and take the oil revenues for itself. There is huge population of youth in all these states that are in extreme poverty and unemployment. Religious radicalism is the only thing available to them and they have begun to eat the region from within. This whole region needs international attention and careful plan for reforms.

I’d suggest that they redraw the borders again in these regions. Enclose all Pashtun majority areas into Afghanistan or Pashtunistan. Allow the regions under Kyrgyz, Tajik, Uzbek minorities in today’s Afghanistan to merge with their respective nations. Attach the region of Hazaras to Iran. Merge Azad Kashmir with Indian Kashmir. Reduce Pakistan to its Punjab province. Make Sindh and Balochistan into separate states. Remove all nukes from this region. Replace their militaries with an international one under UN supervision. Destroy religious seminaries and take them back to 1970 level. Build roads, railway tracks, pipelines from central asia all the way to the docks of Karachi and other port cities. Build roads that go from Delhi all the way to Samarkand or Bukhara so that trade goods can be reached to far flung destinations. Build schools, factories etc so that people can go to work and stay away from reading the quran all day long and grow beard on the face and hatred in the hearts. It would take about 50 years of sustained effort to turn this region around. The people of these region are helpless. They need to be brought to the 21st century by sustained international effort. This is one option that can get the world to safe level.

@Sanjeev

Sanjeev, we need more moderation when it comes to religion. These blogs should never become a posting ground for religious supremacy. Please block out all references to religious supremacy in discussions. When one person makes an insult about another’s religion, it invites tit for tat postings and causes the blog to greatly deviate.

It should perhaps even be posted that religious hatred and bigotry will not be tolerated by reuters.

I as an Indian Hindu, will stand up for the rights of all religions here, let it stand for the record.

Thanks in advance.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

Global watcher
Sane words of wisdom thank you. Let me add here, can we also include nationalism to religion as well. Some bloggers also have a habit of bashing others as a country/nation. You might want to stand for nationalism along with religion. Would that make sense? Countries exist of land where ‘people’ live. No country is good or bad, its the people living in it that matter and most of them are generally good.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Umair,

I have to humbly disagree with one thing with you. For me, I am a human being before a Hindu. I am Indian second and Hindu third. This is the order and the logical way it has to be, for all to be able to live with each other in a respectful way. This creates the basis for pluralism, democracy and secularity. I think Pakistan, although it may have worked from its inception, has to redefine itself in more modern concept, rather than a religious one. If Pakistan can do this, Pakistan will be very prosperous and India and Pakistan can one day have an “open” border.

For any country to be progressive, democratic, advanced, forward thinking the individual has to be first:

1)identified as an equal human being to all others, regardless of religion, culture, sex or political group
2)identified as national of his or her country
3)identified with regards to his or her religion

Just think about it, that is why so many different people in India cal live together. In Pakistan, this order is completely reversed, and this is one of the root causes of so many of its problems. Pakistan will be incapable of democracy if it does not follow the above order.

I respect you considering yourself a muslim first.

But I beg you to step back and reconsider that in a modern day context and consider the butcher, wars, old hatreds, wars and millions who have died. Consider religious equality and tolerance, then you will understand why I say a person is human, then country then religion third.

If you could step back for a second and use your imagination to visualize what is possible on a grander scale, if a person is a human being first. Do not be afraid to question or challenge what you have been told from Childhood. Learning is a lifelong process, sometimes you have to scrap old notions and old ways of thinking and looking at things and ask yourself, are these rules applicable today in a modern day context?

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

@Sanjeev
So this forum is officially for Indian to bash Pakistan, that is why you removed some comments?

Posted by Abid | Report as abusive

@Abid,

Please point out any comments made by any bloggers that are not true. You need not be stubborn and keep defending the undefendable. If there is a valid fact based gripe one has with Pakistan or India, they are free to speak their mind. If you feel numb or impotent to provide a good response, please don’t corner and resign yourself to call everybody here Pakistani bashing. Those are the words of a defeatist who has given up.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

@Global Watcher

You keep on Pakistan-bashing and claiming its all correct and we will continue defending Pakistan and claim its legitimate.

Returning to topic, Pakistanis view India as an enemy due to the 60 years of hostitility and the dispute over Kashmir. Interactions with Indians, such as on this forum, further reveal the hatred and viciousness which Indians have for Pakistan and Islam.

Thank God for the nukes to keep the Indians at bay.

Abid @Global Watcher

You keep on Pakistan-bashing and claiming its all correct and we will continue defending Pakistan and claim its legitimate.

Returning to topic, Pakistanis view India as an enemy due to the 60 years of hostitility and the dispute over Kashmir. Interactions with Indians, such as on this forum, further reveal the hatred and viciousness which Indians have for Pakistan and Islam.

Thank God for the nukes to keep the Indians at bay.

Abid..

As I said in my earlier post discussing with Umair, there can be no discussion on Kashmir until Pakistan reigns in its entire Terrorism Infrastructure, destroys it completely and transparently and Pakistan redefines itself outside a religious context. India needs Iron Clad safety and security guarantees. Indians are not terrorists, you don’t see Indians doing terrorism in the UK, it is all Pakistani’s and Pakistani Students on illegal VISA’s. You are speaking from a very weak position. Your nukes are not needed against India. India has never aggressed another nation since its entire history. Let’s be clear on that.

You have been brainwashed by your government, madrassas and to some extent by your loved ones to believe and fear the great and terrible green monster called India wants to annihilate Pakistan. India has never preemptively launched any attacks on Pakistan, nor has it ever staged proxy wars against Pakistan.

Be willing to step back and realize that what you have been fed your whole life as truth, may not be entirely as it has been told to you. If you can do that, you will opened up to a much larger reality of things.

You Pakistani’s I sometimes feel, are hell bent on hating India. Pakistan has many mistakes to admit and deal with, but prefers to keep its animosity with India, for a lack of a comprehensive policy to mend its ways for the future.

Please end your proxy armies and ISI sponsored terror on us, we just want to progress and live quiet peaceful and happy lives. Just go away.

So if Kashmir is “settled”, then what? Then the ISI will keep pushing further into India, while quietly claiming it as a victory, then the Jihadis will start to tear into Gujarat and the rest of India…For get it buddy. At present the way Pakistan the way it is, it is untrustworthy and not capable of negotiating honestly and in good faith.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

@Global Watcher

What you call terrorism in Kashmir, we and the Kashmiris call it a freedom struggle. If you want this armed struggle to end, withdraw the 500K Indian occupation army and apologize to the Kashmiris for 60 years of oppression, violence and rape of their women that you have inflicted upon them.

@Global Watcher
What you call terrorism in Kashmir, we and the Kashmiris call it a freedom struggle. If you want this armed struggle to end, withdraw the 500K Indian occupation army and apologize to the Kashmiris for 60 years of oppression, violence and rape of their women that you have inflicted upon them.
- Posted by Aamir Ali

–Dear Ali, if you care so much about Kashmiris (which you do not care anymore than you care about Balochis), ask for the merger of POK and Indian Kashmir and have that Kashmir in India—This will save you the burden of controlling your land too, which you are facing difficulty these days. This is what the progressive Kashmiris want. This will lead to pulling back of 500K Indian Army and Indian Hindus meeting their long-lost Kashmiri brothers. Say Yes for Kashmiris.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

@Rajeev

I am fine with a merged Kashmir with no military presence and open borders. The problem is India which knows the only reason the only reason it has control of Kashmir is the indian army. Hence India never agree to withdrawl of its criminal troops from Kashmir.

Regarding Balochis, the problem there is of British-created feudal system which gets money and arms from Afghanistan, through Indian consulates, and then commits sabotage and blackmail in Pakistan.

@I am fine with a merged Kashmir with no military presence and open borders. The problem is India which knows the only reason the only reason it has control of Kashmir is the indian army. Hence India never agree to withdrawl of its criminal troops from Kashmir.
- Posted by Aamir Ali

Aamir Ali, Before Kashmiri terrorism there was no Army/paramilitray force in Kashmir and that is the fact. 500,000 Hindus left Kashmir after Pakistan inititated this blood bath. Before you wrote check it/cross-check it (I can give you the link). kashmiris are in Indian Army fighting terrorism and proudly if you missed the news. I can give you the link.

@Regarding Balochis, the problem there is of British-created feudal system which gets money and arms from Afghanistan, through Indian consulates, and then commits sabotage and blackmail in Pakistan.
–Would you take a little effort to substantiate your allegation by some evidence? A Pakistani blogger tried his best to look for some evidence or some article on these conspiracy theories that ISPR creates and you are so hingry for them. I can give you US saying there is no evidence that India is helping any such element inside Pakistan.

I prefer if you have some thing to back up mere statements are useless.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive