India not the enemy, U.S. tells Pakistan

April 6, 2009

Pakistan’s Dawn newspaper reports from Washington that the United States is seeking fundamental change in Pakistan: it wants Pakistan, presumably the military most of all,  to stop thinking of India as the enemy.

And linked with this, it wants Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence, accused of sponsoring militant groups to advance its security interests in the region, brought under effective civilian control.

Dawn says the Americans are offering Pakistan a new enemy as replacement : the militants operating along the border with Afghanistan who are increasingly striking deeper within Pakistan.

On Sunday a suicide bomber struck in a religious centre in Punjab kiling 22 people, continuing an expansion of the militant campaign into the heartland which seems to have gathered momentum over the past month.

Can it work? India as no longer the existential threat to its very identity as many in Pakistan believe?

U.S. envoy to Afghanistan and Pakistan Richard Holbrooke has begun a fresh trip to the region  this week that will also take him to New Delhi, and a report released by the Asia Society just before that trip suggests ways through which America can begin reshaping perceptions in Pakistan so that it feels less threatened by its bigger neighbour.

Holbrooke and National Security Adviser General James Jones were part of the task force that worked on the report “Back from the Brink: A strategy for stabilising Afghanistan and Pakistan” before they stepped down following their appointment in the Obama administration. A PDF of the report is here.

Very broadly it calls for addressing Pakistan’s security concerns on Afghanistan, Kashmir and nuclear weapons so that “it no longer requires the use of covertly supported guerrilla forces against neighbours.” 

The recommendations of the task force are: support dialogue between India and Paklstan so that they find a lasting solution to Kashmir, address Afghan-Pakistan disputes so that Afghanistan recognizes the Durand Line as the border between the two countries, and finally begin a dialogue with Pakistan over its nuclear  programme including perhaps recognising the reality of  its nuclear weapons.

But what about the mood over the border in India? Since the attacks in Mumbai blamed on the Pakistan-based Lashkar-e-Taiba, India has set its face against a resumption of dialogue that was in any case making fitful progress.

It is now in election mode, and if you follow the debate the mood has clearly hardened with the Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party promising a more muscular Pakistan policy.

But by making Pakistan the overarching element of its security strategy and expecting India to play its part, is the United States  running the risk of ignoring the interests of New Delhi which not long ago was being celebrated as a strategic partner? Is it back to re-hyphenating india and Pakistan, as an Indian analyst here suggests?

[Reuters photo of protest in Lahore against a suicide bombing and U.S. envoy Richard Holbrooke with Afghan President Hamid Karzai]

Comments

Abid

—how about coming with something original, what you have on display is the same old run of the mill ‘victim mentality’ – a sprinkle of Israel-Palestine, a little bit of Saddam, a dash of Kashmir – (oblivious of a Darfur etc.)

Posted by anup | Report as abusive
 

Mauryan
“Look at the countries that it supports – Burma, North Korea, Pakistan, Vietnam, Cambodia – all backward swamps ”

If India is added to the above list, and the list is arranged, I am sure India will top the list of backward swamps with sheer number of slums it has. Yoor slums are even got famous enough to make it to the Hollywood, courtesy Danny Boyle.
(Mauryan, nothing personal, I am a Pakistani and always feel the need to respond when I see something against Pakistan. I never like my country to be called a backward swamp, though I have always agreed we are lacking in progress and need to get upto speed.) Your understanding is much appreciated!

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

I agree with Anup, Old song of Kashmir again,Abid you forget to mention nukes in your last comment !

But JOKE OF THE DAY IS >>

“Now it is Pakistan bad luck for being in close proximity to Afghanistan”

Pakistan has exploited this for decades, even today money is flowing towards you, so that you can pay your bills. Your leaders never fail to praise geo-political location of Pakistan and how this war cannot be won without including pakistan.

Obviously Pakistan is creating this terrorism, how they can be ignored ??

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan has already rejected the US proposal for joint operations in the tribal areas…why? They are fearful that the Taliban terrorists will step up their suicide attacks within Pakistan and target more civilians.

However, they will carry on welcoming the $1.5 billion per year, but still carry on asking for other military equipment that the US will flatly refuse to give Pakistan…why? The USA knows that Pakistan will use them against Pakistan’s enemy number one, India. They will use the equipment themselves or train another Jihadi group to use them against India.

Posted by bulletfish | Report as abusive
 

Following on from my previous comment; the title of this blog says it all: India not the enemy, US tell Pakistan.

Will Pakistan listen to the hand that lines its pockets?

Is that the pockets of the feudal elite and high-ranking officers or the general population suffering the terrorism of the Taliban that Pakistan created?

Posted by bulletfish | Report as abusive
 

Punjabiyaar!
I am not speaking for Pakistani government or Pakistani “military officers”, rather I do think what i said “Now it is Pakistan bad luck for being in close proximity to Afghanistan” might reflect the feelings of mainstream Pakistanis and Pakistan’s soldiers who are forced with one of the two options: 1. become victim of a suicide or missile (made in USA) attack or 2. kill those who they trained under the instructions of same masters (US, Pakistan corrupt civilian leaders and Pakistan military officers).

It is Pakistan corrupt civillian leaders and military officers who welcome US aid in one or other pretex, mainstream Pakistanis want a good life for their kids as much as any other person on the face of earth.

Posted by Abid | Report as abusive
 

Mauryan: If you think it is ok to have Shiv Sena as a reaction to muslim “Shiv Sena is not a welfare organization, but Muslim intolerance triggers counter organizations of that kind everywhere.” Then why you have problem with Taliban and co as a reaction to Indian atrocities in Kashmir, Isreali actions and rest of the world inaction in Palestine, most of the puppets governments in muslim worlds who would rather safeguard others interest than Pakistani people interest?

Posted by Abid | Report as abusive
 

For Abid, Pakistan is like Israel… Created out of India… On the grounds you debate Palestinian rights, Pakistan and Kashmir has no right to exist.

US is repeating its mistakes by unnecessarily imposing it’s wish in the region. For a more mature solution to the Af-Pak, problem, UN should get involved and govern both the nations directly till the problem of terrorism is eradicated.

Also, one truth should be formally accepted by all before trying to bring a lasting solution… Muslim Terrorists, hardliners (mullahs, khomeinis etc) and more recently preachers (preachers on web etc) do not believe in concept of nation or peace or right of other religions to exist… How does this problem get addressed?

Posted by Rohit | Report as abusive
 

Rohit:
“On the grounds you debate Palestinian rights, Pakistan and Kashmir has no right to exist.”

I want to question you on this, on what basis are you stating Pakistan cannot exist? Pakistan and Kashmir have every right to exist with their full might and exterminate anyony who would threaten their existence. Just remember what you call today ‘India’ was governed by muslims for 800 years before the British came in.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Abid writes: “why you have problem with Taliban and co as a reaction to Indian atrocities in Kashmir, Isreali actions and rest of the world inaction in Palestine, most of the puppets governments in muslim worlds who would rather safeguard others interest than Pakistani people interest?”

Abid,

Kindly do not distort facts in a fit of emotion. Taliban is not a reaction to “Indian atrocities” in Kashmir. I don’t have to tell you about the history of Taliban on how it emerged and who sponsored to victory in Afghanistan and why it is now spread into FATA. It is not Kashmir. You know that very well.

I am against the British messing up a lot of geography across the globe, for which people are paying a heavy price. I do not support the division of Middle East into Iraq, Kuwait, UAE, Saudi Arabia etc by the British. Israel happened because of German holocaust that drove Jews away and they began to populate Palestine and used militancy to win the formation of Israel. The British did a lot of mistakes in a hurry. They misled the Arabs in order to break the Turkish empire’s back. Then they betrayed them. They drew the Durand line that divided Pashtuns between Afghanistan and Pakistan. They also drew arbitrary lines that made Hindus/Sikhs and Muslims on opposite sides that led to massacre during partition.
I am against all this. But the world has moved on.

Let us talk about today. Taliban is a creation of the Pakistani military and was breast fed by the ISI. India’s military is in Kashmir to protect its territory. Islamic insurgents from inside Pakistan (military personnel in disguise, unemployed youth taken by militant organizations etc) creep into Indian held Kashmir and attack the military and civilians. And the military with its back to the wall, retaliates and it is brutal. First have your citizens return to Pakistan and act responsible. Kashmir will be peaceful again.

If you take an honest survey today for Indian Muslims and Kashmiris on whether they’d love to migrate to Pakistan for being in an Islamic brotherhood, I can bet 99% would say no. You know the reasons. Pakistan has deteriorated. It is no longer safe haven for Muslims. The Pakistan that Jinnah formed and the Pakistan today are vastly different. Pakistan has become rudderless and is drifting about. It is unfortunate. It is not something worth celebrating. All humans have the right to live a good life, including Pakistanis. But look at where things stand.

Muslims should stop living with a victim mentality. That is the main reason behind their problems. They tend to group together and live in an “us” versus “them” mind set. Their religious leaders are responsible for this. Whenever they form a country on their own, they become worse with respect to this mindset. All other countries that are non-Muslim become enemies or cannot be trusted. Somehow, the change in the mind set has to come from within the Islamic system. Others cannot help it.

 

ISI chief refuses to meet US officials: reports
Updated at: 2238 PST, Tuesday, April 07, 2009
http://www.geo.tv/4-7-2009/39297.htm

ISLAMABAD: ISI chief Lieutenant General Ahmad Shuja Pasha declined to meet with US special envoy for Pakistan and Afghanistan Richard Holbrooke and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Admiral Michael Mullen here on Tuesday.

According to some reports, he refused to meet the visiting American officials in protest against allegations leveled against ISI.

It may be mentioned here that US envoy Holbrooke and Admiral Mullen, who arrived here on Monday for a two-day visit, held separate meetings with President Asif Ali Zardari, Prime Minister Syed Yousuf Raza Gilani, PML-N chief Nawaz Sharif and Army chief General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Mauryan writes:
“Pakistan has deteriorated. It is no longer safe haven for Muslims. The Pakistan that Jinnah formed and the Pakistan today are vastly different. Pakistan has become rudderless and is drifting about. It is unfortunate. It is not something worth celebrating. All humans have the right to live a good life, including Pakistanis. But look at where things stand. ”

Sometimes they say ignorance is a blessing, I want you to remain under no illusion about Pakistan. We are riding through the storm no doubt, but we have full situational awareness we havent lost the sense of direction. What the media is potraying is completely wrong. I even had Indians here on this blog stating Pakistan is only a matter of few more months and will collapse. Dont become self proclaimed fortune tellers, just months back when I didnt have the grasp of what is going on, I was of the same view. I thought we are really rudderless, like a kite which has broken free and just going where the wind takes it.
You need to understand the entire game before you can predict the performance of any of its players. When a player is just trying to save his wicket and rotate the strike by taking singles, just wait for the loose delivery and smash it to the boundary. Down to the last 10 overs, when there are wickets in hand one can go all out for slogging. You dont call a cool and calm batsman a looser, let the time come. We will bring out the best in us when it should matter the most. Regarding Indian muslims not opting to join Pakistan at this stage, Mauryan you got to be sure about this one. I lived among Indian muslims, I had friends from Mumbai and Gujarat, I know how Indian muslims view Pakistan.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

“ISI chief refuses to meet US officials: reports
Updated at: 2238 PST, Tuesday, April 07, 2009″

THE WASHINGTON TIMES | Wednesday, April 8, 2009

“Pakistani Ambassador Husain Haqqani Tuesday called for a $30 billion dollar Marshall Plan for Pakistan and Afghanistan over the next five years to fight al Qaeda, blunt anti-American sentiment and secure Pakistan from extremists bent on destabilizing its civilian government. ”

http://washingtontimes.com/news/2009/apr  /08/pakistan-we-need-a-marshall-plan/

Guess what Americans said, f**k off.

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive
 

The Paks have a thorough commitment to liberating the oppressed all over planet, only comparable to americans.
The Paks should pronto extend their leadership benefits to the beleaguered men tortured in christian Philippines and buddhist Thailand and Myanmar.
Just asking……
you all have your training camps working on the future jihad in the above areas. Why not.
You are a global power for your information.

 

Excuse me

Posted by Abid | Report as abusive
 

“Pakistani Ambassador Husain Haqqani Tuesday called for a $30 billion dollar Marshall Plan for Pakistan and Afghanistan over the next five years to fight al Qaeda, blunt anti-American sentiment and secure Pakistan from extremists bent on destabilizing its civilian government. ”

Let us reword this correctly:

Pakistani Ambassador Husain Haqqani Tuesday called for a $30 billion dollar Marshall Plan for Pakistan and Afghanistan over the next five years to SUSTAIN al Qaeda, INCREASE anti-American sentiment and secure Pakistan MORE WEAPONS IN ORDER TO FEED JIHADIS FOR destabilizing INDIA’S civilian government.

 

Umair,

There is no such thing as “Indian Muslims.” India is a nation of small nations. Muslims vary dramatically from one place to another. We have Afghans living in Hyderabad (Deccan) for more than four centuries. We have Arabs settled in southern state of Tamil Nadu for eons, completely blended into our culture. Muslim communities are mixed into the middle of non-Muslim areas, just like the areas in Pakistan were before partition. Depending upon which Muslim you talk to, the response will vary. Some communities in Kerala have been Muslims even before Mohammed Bin Ghori appeared in the North. The state of Uttar Pradesh has more Muslims than those in Kashmir. Most of them have settled well into the Indian mainstream and are happy to go about their lives.

The issues that concerns Muslims are the same that many other communities experience in India – lack of opportunities, poverty etc. And not all Muslims can be clubbed into one major block of under privileged class. The economic progress in India is helping every community rise up. Muslims have formed a powerful vote block in states like Uttar Pradesh and Bihar. The end result is politicians are rolling out red carpets for them to get their votes.

Coming to Pakistan, their fears of being ruled by a Hindu majority was unwarranted and unnecessary. The fact that more than 100 million Muslims in India are sharing the nation with others proved this fear to be a myth. To justify that myth, Pakistan is still trying to hold on to the belief that mosques are being razed down daily, Muslims are forced into concentration camps and so on. Riots do happen once in a while and they are not exclusive between Hindus and Muslims.

India has many Jinnahs in every state and they try to hijack their local regions to enhance their power base once in a while. But their influence stays local and does not spread across the nation. There are always “fears” of Brahmin dominance, Dalit’s rights, Christian conversions, Communists, Maoists, Naxals, Trade Unions and so on. But they seem normal and people have gotten used to them.

What the Americans have begun to tell Pakistanis now is the truth – get rid off this obsession with India. That is the only thing that has ruined Pakistan from the start. It is time to look inwards. Sometimes when people harm others in devious ways, they always become paranoiac about being harmed the same way. Pakistan’s fear of Indian embassies in Afghanistan is an example.

And I called Pakistan a swamp because that word refers to stagnation. Pakistan, Burma etc have become stagnant. Even if India is poor, it has not become stagnant. It is like a tiny stream that is at least flowing. Anything that flows remains clean. Stagnant societies become infested with problems. Your favorite AQ Khan has said that Pakistan cannot make a sharp needle, but have made a nuclear weapon. And that is the reality. Other than the nuclear weapons, Pakistan has not developed the way a nation should. I understand that your pride hurts. But so does reality.

You should never compare your country with India. It is apples versus oranges comparison. You should measure your progress with a nation similar to yours. May be Iran or or Afghanistan or Bangladesh would be a fair comparison. India is huge and is comparable to China. But India lags behind China on many fronts. The only positive thing about India is that it is a democracy, while China is a Communist autocracy. When you compare your nation with an appropriate match, then all equations will change and it will help you look in a different direction with different objectives.

Remember that a big truck may be slow, but it carries a lot of momentum. Driving a pick up truck into it will not harm the big truck much, but will cause a lot of damage to the pick up truck.

 

Ambassador Haqqani is very much motivated and is in all smiles standing in line after 50 states as a 51st state ( recent addition to the union)for a paycheck of a billion bucks per pay period that too tax-free.

 

Umair wrote:
Just remember what you call today ‘India’ was governed by muslims for 800 years before the British came in.

Umair, if we needed a history lesson I would have read a text book. Yes, the muslims brought many things like the Taj Mahal…etc. However, do not forget the oppression that was reigned down on non-Muslims after the death of Mughul Akbar.

When emperor Shah Jahan viewed the Taj Mahal, he ordered his men to cut off the right hand of the master architect Ustad Isa (a Persian), so the later may not be able to erect such a stately and imposing edifice again in his life. Can you feel the romance, Umair.

Posted by bulletfish | Report as abusive
 

Here is the US envoy to Af-Pak with General Mullen in Pakistan who want Pakistan to fight and remove the terrorists from its soil who are fermenting attacks on US and NATO troops in Afghanistan.

There is no love lost between these two nations. USA accuses Pakistan’s forces and ISI of having connections with the Taliban and other terrorist outfits. Pakistan takes a tough stance over drone attacks.

He (Mr. Holbrooke) evaded a question about the Kashmir dispute and just said that the United States would not mediate between India and Pakistan. (DAWN.com, Wed, 08 April 2009).

This is typical to drag the Kashmir issue into the equation to distract attention from the Taliban and other terrorists. The REAL issue here is Af-Pak. Pakistan is desperate to get India hyphenated too.

Posted by bulletfish | Report as abusive
 

hi abid and umair, where do you guys reside..?

Posted by rony | Report as abusive
 

Hey Umair, I have just read an article from the English newspaper, The Daily Telegraph, 04 April 2009. Please tell me these extracts are not true:

Pakistan school fears terrorism, as threat of Iraq-style violence grows.

-A visit to Marghalla Higher Secondary makes it all too clear just how much terrorism is affecting the fabric of everyday life. At the front gate, discreetly armed security guards frisk all pupils, looking for bombs that might have been placed in their schoolbags. Parents who want to drop their children close to the school itself must obtain a special badge for their car, authorising it to come near. Inside, windows have been fitted with grilles and shatter-proof class, CCTV cameras scan the corridors, and extra emergency stairwells have been built.

-But much of middle-class Pakistan is no longer in the mood to give Mr Obama the chance to fight it. Instead, just as in Iraq after the fall of Saddam Hussein, those who can afford it now talk of abandoning the country altogether, emigrating to join extended family in other countries so that their children can grow up safely. The pessimistic mood is summed up in a text-messaged joke which is doing the rounds in Islamabad The official national slogan of “Pakistan Zindabad” (long live Pakistan) has been changed to Pakistan Sai Zindha Bhaag (run away alive from Pakistan).

-The fear of a loved one being caught up in the trouble is now creating a renewed business boom for Rajab Tonyo, owner of the Paras International Immigration Consultants in Rawalpindi, who advises Pakistani families seeking to move abroad. When Pakistan’s military leader, Pervez Musharaff, stepped down as president last August to make way for a new civilian government, Mr Tonyo noticed a drop-off in inquiries, as optimism grew that a return to a civilian government would bring peace. Now, he said, inquiries had risen from just a handful per month to more than 100 in March, mostly from educated professionals from the troubled North West Frontier Province. Many were asking about Canada, Denmark and Australia, where visa restrictions are currently less stringent than in Britain.

Posted by bulletfish | Report as abusive
 

Umair:

I donot understand ,why Pakistanis treat India as the enemy no 1, is it not true that poverty and extremism are the biggest enemy ,of both India and Pakistan, can we unite in this fight against poverty and extremism?

Posted by Manish | Report as abusive
 

“Pakistani Ambassador Husain Haqqani Tuesday called for a $30 billion dollar Marshall Plan for Pakistan and Afghanistan over the next five years to fight al Qaeda,…”

—We Indians are ready to offer $30 billion for our lucrative layoff plan for Pakistan over the next five years & eliminate not only the terrorists org. but the Pak Army incl. of ISI – lock stock & barrel.

Posted by anup | Report as abusive
 

GEO Pakistan
ISI chief refuses to meet US officials: reports
Updated at: 2238 PST, Tuesday, April 07, 2009
ISLAMABAD: ISI chief Lieutenant General Ahmad Shuja Pasha declined to meet with US special envoy for Pakistan and Afghanistan Richard Holbrooke and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Admiral Michael Mullen here on Tuesday.

According to some reports, he refused to meet the visiting American officials fearing a spanking for the proven involvement in terrorists activities of the ISI.

It may be mentioned here that US envoy Holbrooke and Admiral Mullen, who arrived here on Monday for a two-day visit, held separate spanking sessions with President Asif Ali Zardari, Prime Minister Syed Yousuf Raza Gilani, PML-N chief Nawaz Sharif and Army chief General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani & suja pasha on getting the whiff, has gone into hiding (SWAT) to save his b*tt.

Posted by anup | Report as abusive
 

I have been reading too many blogs, especially those from Pakistan and the Pakistani diaspora. Here is the sum up of Pakistani view on the terrorism:

If there is a terrorist attack in Pakistan then it is the DREADED FOREIGN HAND’S fault. They all start wailing like “oh my dear brethren…boo hoo hoo! “It is a RAW/Mossad/CIA/MI6/RAW/Mossad/CIA/MI6/RA W/Mossad/CIA/MI6 conspiracy”…”oh no, it is not true”….”oh this” and “oh that.”

Just plain impossible for these guys to admit Pakistan is going through its worst times at the hands of the terrorists they created with a weak, pathetic, corrupt govt at the helm.

They will therefore never admit that on the grounds that the truth will incriminate them.

Posted by bulletfish | Report as abusive
 

Pakistani Taliban said moving closer to capital (DAWN.com, Wed. 08 April 2009)

I hope what I read (above) is not true.

Posted by bulletfish | Report as abusive
 

Ladies and Gentlemen, Please do not be too excited about cozy and love relationship between India and USA. India is just benefitting from it while US enemy No. got changed from USSR to Terrorists and China. Terrorists are thread to US interests around the globe while China is an equal threat to US economically.

When USSR existed Pakistan was the main beneficiary of US as it supported US cause against its enemy No 1 (USSR), now if there was no terrorist phenomenon (such as from 1987-1996) then it was China as a No 1 enemy of US and thus India as a No 1 strategic partner. So this conspiracy theory will support Pakistan support behind Taliban to re-engage US interest in Pakistan, but at same time it should tell India that its strategic interest may not last too long.

You all so called new born progressive Indian, you could look at the most recent history of India (from 1947-1990), India was more closed economy than Pakistan despite being a democratic nation with all the resources left from Brits at the time of partition. It is only during recent years, its started to grow at a stable pace, mostly thanks to Afgan and ISI for getting rid of USSR and allowing US to be more interested in India because of China.

Posted by Abid | Report as abusive
 

Manish
” is it not true that poverty and extremism are the biggest enemy ,of both India and Pakistan, can we unite in this fight against poverty and extremism?”

Yes, you are right, poverty and extremism are the real enemy. Manish, its not me who views India as enemy no.1, there is a history to it. Even if you leave every other thing one side, only the 1971 war is enough for Pakistan to keep fighting with India.
However, yes I agree, Pakistanis and Indians need to forge parternship, develop trust and take confidence building measures.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Abid
I further add to what you have stated, the Indians are dumb and do not know how to play their cards smart. While the US seems willing to accept India as a partner, India will have to contribute towards American interests. India soldiers will be needed to do the dirty work, fighting insurgents in Afghanistan, US will prop India upo against China. Also, the US would like India to focus in resolving regional disputes like Kashmir, here is where things get interesting. When a child is playing with a match stick, even if an elder stops him he says “no, no i am not going to give you”. Finally when the elder is fed up, he simply give him a smack and snatches it. This is what will happen to India.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Abid writes: “Please do not be too excited about cozy and love relationship between India and USA. India is just benefitting from it while US enemy No. got changed from USSR to Terrorists and China. Terrorists are thread to US interests around the globe while China is an equal threat to US economically.”

No one excited about going cozy with the Americans. There are two approaches towards the Americans – Economic relationship and inter-dependency and military dependency. India’s relationship with the US is based on the former. India is not so reliant on the US for its military needs. Pakistan turned into a banana republic because it relied entirely on American dole on military as well as financial fronts for all the sixty years of its existence. So America got used to kicking them around whenever they wanted. Iran threw them out because the US was using the Shah as a puppet. Had that not happened, the US would have taken out the Soviets from the Iranian side of the border.

India does not mind support from others when it matters. Support can be in the form of understanding and other means. Isn’t Pakistan the one asking others to help resolve the Kashmir issue? India does not care and the Americans have agreed to that. The US is still a super power and has an enormous clout in gaining support from other nations to make its needs realized. So one has to be careful in not going against them. After all India’s recent economic boom came mainly from American business.
If America understands India’s stance on Kashmir, why should India refuse it?

Pakistan is beginning to face the reality. Everyone knows that the country is made up of manipulators and liars. They have a President who is number one in both. Truth hurts when it becomes obvious to others. Pakistan should now be careful with the Americans and not the Indians. Otherwise your country faces more problems than solutions. I am reading in many international forums that Pakistan has only about 6 months or so before they fall apart. The only worry India should have now is to prevent terrorist elements from Pakistan in creating havoc during the elections and beyond. And any international support in terms of intelligence and political support will be most welcome. This does not mean we fall at the American’s feet and beg for alms like Pakistanis have been doing all these years. Now I heard your leaders want drones? Wow! Do you think they are going to trust you anymore?

 

Umair writes: “the Indians are dumb and do not know how to play their cards smart. ”

Thank you for the complement. We are not manipulators. We’d like to be honest and let the truth about ourselves be known openly. We do not run with the hare and hounds at the same time. We’d like to be recognized for being a trustworthy and reliable nation that stands on its own feet.

I do believe that India and the US should forge long term relationship on the economic front. The US has already signed a major nuclear deal with India to help meet its energy needs. I’d like India and the US to co-operate on space explorations and other scientific arenas. Both countries complement each other on these areas. As far defense, India always like to shop around and get the best in the market. And India has been trying to make its needs met by indigenous development at the same time. Mutual economic alliances will help both countries and this should not be wrongly looked at reliance or complete dependence.

 

Mauryan,
From sixty til todate Pakistan heavily rely on US for military needs because untill disintegration of India daddy “USSR” it was a common norm in the world to join either US or USSR block, and it was natural for India and Pakistan to join two different. Now since there is no mighty USSR, and US interests changes, where second major military challenge for US after USSR is growing China. And that is why until 9/11 US decided to start pating india since India will serve US better when it comes to China, but 9/11 changes world dynamic.

Now US is walking a double edge sword, with feeding a dog to keep in check a growing Giant (china) and at the same time paying ransom to corrupt Pakistani leaders to keep check or get help tam terrorists.

Pakistan disintegration or Indian military support in Afganistan will not be in interest of India and US, since currently killing of Pakistani and Afgani law enforcement personals may not be a favorite task for many Taliban/Jihadis, but if their task is to kill Indian soldiers it may even motivate more people in Afganistan and Pakistan to join hands with these Jihadis. That is the main reason, US DO NOT want Indian soldiers on their side when it comes to fighting muslim terrorists.

Posted by Abid | Report as abusive
 

Abid
Perfect! you couldnt have summed it much better. Let me add something, while what we have seen in recent years the demise of a Unipolar world, the American empire is on its steady decline where its power is waning and its rivals are rising. Look at the resurgent Russian and assertive Iranians. India has choosen to side with the US at this critical time, the US economy is severyly in recession with no signs of an early recovery.

On the other hand, Pakistan’s strategic relationship with China couldnt have come at a more cruical time. Decades of old Sino-Pak ties have cemented into long-term relationship. The time tested friendship between Pakistan and China saw many events unfold, the aparthied fell in South Africa, the USSR collapsed, Yugoslavia divided, the Berlin wall came down, the world became unipolar. But the ties between Pakistan and China always kept progressing rapidly. Today China is the country with most asset investments in US, where US has a huge debt payable to China, not to mention the trillion of US$ in foreign reserves that China holds. There is no doubt the important role that China will play in future. Pakistan is much better positioned in the light of this. And the relations with Persian Gulf and Arab nations, these are the reasons why India failed to diplomatically isolate Pakisatn one of the things tried recently.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

UMAIR..you wrote……… Even if you leave every other thing one side, only the 1971 war is enough for Pakistan to keep fighting with India…….

I can understand your anguish very well. But the facts are somewhat different. East Pak is not a tiny island; it has same population as west Pak and same religion as well. The language is different; so are the languages within context of west pak. Why should banglas cozy up with India? Germany was divided in a world war by others and later they have been reunited on mutual accord fairly quickly once cold war had ended. If you all like each other who will stop you from forging major alliances and even going for a full-fledged reunification. When Mujibur Rehman was elected to be PM of the combined paks, the poor guy was denied the job and instead was put in prison. The agitation for separation turned violent and promptly banglas were oppressed by Punjabi dominated army with large scale killings, abductions and so forth. This translated into a massive refugee problem which in turn caused throttling demographic and financial strain on india. With its frugal means, at that time, india was not able to handle the job of feeding the refugees with no end in near site. It had to act.

There was clear documentation of historical events about the second division of India (PAK). I will neither deny the indian role writing the mere final page of separation, nor that India ever opposed the idea (of division). As you felt, india isn’t that dumb. But your permanent delusion that its all indias handiwork is another example of a life in eternal denial. You should talk to Bangladeshis yourself who were old enough at that time to grasp the ground reality. On a side note, all indians want Pak to prosper, which will help the entire region big time.

 

Abid:
“From sixty til todate Pakistan heavily rely on US for military needs because until disintegration of India daddy “USSR” it was a common norm in the world to join either US or USSR block, and it was natural for India and Pakistan to join two different.”

Abid, India has never made or kept relations with a country on the cost of other, before we disintegrated Pakistan in 1971, Mrs. Ghandhi went to USA UK and other countries and done many agreements. She knew your “Master” will come to save its “DOG” no matter how much infected it is. But your master could not save you.

India never risked her sovereignty for a few dollars. Drones from your “Master” are hitting you, and you could not even bark when they are around.

Pakistan heavily relied on USA for military aid and eventually became an HARAMKHOR, India and pakistan got their independence on same day, infact pakistan got its a day earlier. While India developed on its own, pakistan continues to living off aid, went to IMF two times and even today it has an inflation rate of 30%

You are asking more aid, donations, imdad, loan or whatever you call, and on other hand you are telling us that pakistans current position is due to its corrupt leaders.

Get a life

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive
 

Punjabi yar
mind your language? will you.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Punjabiyaar: Your name says it all so I do not need to reply to you.

Posted by Abid | Report as abusive
 

Umair states: India soldiers will be needed (by US) to do the dirty work, fighting insurgents in Afghanistan.

Adid says: US DO NOT want Indian soldiers on their side when it comes to fighting muslim terrorists.

Thanx guys

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

Abid

You made a slighting remark of *feeding a dog*. Lets talk about the concorde episode for a meaningful diversion here.

I was watching history channels exhaustive work on demise of concorde, the supersonic aircraft (unfortunate end though for a fine aircraft).

A small clip was about an indian aviation minister turning down the CEOs request of airtime (flying rights) in india. The said CEO requested strongly for indian flying rights during night time and india was aware of the problems; and so instead strongly recommended daytime rights. The problem with concorde is that when it flies over a town the entire population feels the supersonic boom just as a close thunder or a bomb explosion if you will ( I have personal experience). The ceo countered that it means it (concorde) has to pass Europe during night and the europeans don’t allow night time rights as the sleeping towns will be startled awake. Then the Indian minister threw him out saying thats ” the very reason iam asking you to reverse the times, so that our people will have sound sleep”. Concorde failed to get flying rights over india. The ceo said india lost money he had offered. India didn’t care it appears. Now you can conclude that there is no foreign food that can please this dog; slumdogs or not it keeps its national interest at the very top.
US had realized this fact firsthand during as well as after the cold war era. The two largest and best democracies have to rely on eachother in this not so democratic world for bettering the latter. Indians do want Pak to prosper for indias benefit.

 

@“From sixty til todate Pakistan heavily rely on US for military needs because until disintegration of India daddy “USSR” it was a common norm in the world to join either US or USSR block, and it was natural for India and Pakistan to join two different.”
-Abid writes
Abid, are you saying right now Pakistan’s daddy is China. Well I will not disagree a lot on that with the treatment Pres Zardari got in China—promise to visit China 3 (or 4 ?) times a year in spite of the fact that Pres Zardari was not allowed to meet with Chinese high command. You have all the reasons to feel since Pakistan needs pocket money.
More importantly, this international chess board is always running now or in the past. Nations find their own interests that take them on a Progress highway rather than dark bumpy allies. For India, this chess game has taken India on Progress highway and Pakistan sadly is stuck in the dark allies. Umair: you can call Indians dumb and that makes me laugh since that is coming from a Pakistani who has played this smart that Pakistan is where you in reality it is.
Abid, you are right about India-it was closed economy and that the Indian economic surge is more recent, but it is not shear luck—it is planned and is real and is to stay—One can speculate whatever. But China is ahead. It is the peculiar Indian economy that has provided more immunity to Indian banking systems and economy—the controls/oversights.
Abid, what are your thoughts where Pakistan will be from the state it is right now? There are all these # of real issues. Is there some leader who can lead? More specifically, the history has shown that the negative tricks by Pakistan have not worked against India or anyone else, and will not take Pakistan on a path of development—that is a path of stopping others from developing—from Indian POV that –ve proxy wars etc. strategy can slow down India, at best. Is there any chance Pakistan is ready to divorce the terrorists—Asking from both Indian and Pakistani POV. I believe Pakistan needs +ve side not just dependent upon powers—like getting happy because of Chinese $$$$$.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

Umair Wrote:
“mind your language? will you.”

One can expect some foul language if you tell Pakistanis who’s their daddy. But not from us. We know we were here even before USSR or USA come into existence. I am using “H” word only because Pakistan is one. See below why I use this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haraam

Haraam applies to ill-gotten wealth obtained through sin. Examples include money earned through cheating, stealing, corruption, murder or any means that involves harm to another human being. It is prohibited in Islam for a true Muslim to profit from such Haraam actions. Any believer who benefits from or lives off wealth obtained through Haraam is not a Muslim.

Pakistan is living off money which is earned through cheating. Pakistan used US money firstly to create terrorists and now they are asking money for eliminating them while supporting terrorism on same time. Thats why I used this for your country.

Sorry Abid/Umair, if I stepped on you tails.

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive
 

Azaddp: Sorry if you took “DOG” literally, I didn’t mean to use it literally. I would not call a nation or human being a dog. Sorry if I hurt yours or any one else feelings. We could agree to disagree on amny issues but I do not mean to insult any one, rather would keep morals.

Rajeev: As far as China is concern, I will say Pakistan should trust China more than any one else (though in my personal life experiences, I found chinese the least trustworthy people). As far as any Pakistani politician is concern especially Zardari who may have won presidency at the cost of his wife, and brother in law blood, I will not be surprise if a true friend of Pakistani people do not trust them. In fact, corrupt politicians are the reason that Pakistani people and most of the world rely on Pakistan military (though officers are corrupt, but atleast they come out of a desciplined institution so they do not sell Pakistani secrets).

Posted by Abid | Report as abusive
 

Abid,

India was never relying on the USSR 100% like Pakistan does with the US. It was only a defense relation to counter cold war prejudice. Cold war is over and the USSR is gone. India has progressed beyond expectations. Pakistan on the other hand has degenerated. Do you agree? There is a difference between strategic relationship and dependence. The US has “used” Pakistan for its purposes and will toss is when there is no further use. It did when the Soviets left Afghanistan.

 

Here is some more news for Pakistanis. Time to celebrate. Your Islamic brothers are getting close to Islamabad. May be Zardari has to shift his capital to Lahore for some time. Then he can move to Hyderabad and then to Karachi. After that to London where he can live with other Pakistani exiles. The US will make a deal with Taliban at that time and the country will be called Bakistan.

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn -content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/paki stani-taliban-said-moving-closer-to-capi tal–qs

 

And the surrender deals collapses………..
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn -content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/sufi +mohammed+calls+off+swat+peace+deal
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn -content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/nwfp  /militants-seize-more-territory-in-bune r–szh
Does anyone still have any doubt on who calls the shots? Another tactical withdrawl by the “Professional” Paki Army on the offing? With this rate surely soon pakistani army will be tactically withdrawing out of Pakistan.

Posted by chirkut | Report as abusive
 

Well as far as Zardari and others are concern, they already favor to run Pakistan from Dubai or England as long as Pakistani people blood provide them fuel to enjoy the luxaries of Dubai and UK.

If Altaf Hussain could do it from UK why not Zardari? And I think they are learning this from their long last relations with US. They (Zardaris and co) think if US could rule Pakistan from Washington, why can not they do the same from Dubai or London.

Posted by Abid | Report as abusive
 

Mauryan:
As far as strategic alliance is concern, initially Pakistan was also a strategic allied with US, but during Afgan war things changed. If you put yourself in Pakistan shoes, you could understand the heat of USSR taking over Afganistan or Afganistan having pro Indian government, while there are still hostilities between Pak and Ind.

We all know since the creation of Pak, IND and PAK are on war terms, and imagine a country with much smaller resources (PAK) than the enemy (IND) having an other enemy (USSR) sitting on an other border (provided USSR was going to control Afganistan). In that scenario, Pakistan would have sandwiched between IND and USSR. Therefore, it was in PAK interest to win more support from others to defend Afganistan and push USSR out of Afganistan. And since US dream was to weaken and humilliate USSR, so both countries went into Afgan war with a mutual interest of pulling USSR out of Afganistan and installing pro PAK govt in Afganistan.

But once US achieved its goal of destroying USSR, they lost interest and left mess (millions of refugees in Pakistan, and total destruction in Afganistan). Additionally, before living Afganistan, they also made sure to get rid of all those Pakistani leaders, who had close tie with Mujahideens and were respected among various Mujahideen factions- mean destruction of Gen Zia along with ISI top brass etc.

Then when US left, it was not possible for Pakistan to feed afgan refugees rather they have to let them spread around the country for making livelihood, since Mujahideens fractions started to fight with each others to control Kabul (Pro Pak + Saudi Arabia group – Sunni + Pukhtoon versus Pro India and Iran group – Shia + Farsi speaking). Now it would have been total loss for Pakistan if Pak was giving up its support to pro PAK group, thus they created Taliban (mainly Pukhtoon and Sunni) to get rid of both groups and install a pro Pak government in Afganistan.

Unfortunately, most of those people were illeducated when it comes to teaching of religion or even worldly knowledge – since most of them were orphans and were taught and raised in free Madrassas. Therefore, instead of providing a fair govt to people and building Afganistan, they started with destroying Statues, and resulted in confrontation with west and thus self destruction.

Now, PAK is stuck on one hand with millions of trained foreign militants (includings Afgans, arabs, african, chychan, Uzbak etc) on its soil and on other hand risk of allowing increased Indian influence in Afganistan that may result in a pro Indian Afgan govt, which may be hostile to Pakistan, thus going back to point zero where it may sandwich between two hostile armies on both sides.

Strategically, this will be in interest of IND (to teach lesson to a life long enemy) and west (since they would like to eliminate only muslim country with Nuke); and thus Pakistan is making all out final efforts to avert such possibility and these terrorists (abudan mujahideens) indirectly working against the cause of muslim world.

Posted by Abid | Report as abusive
 

Abid,

Let me reiterate since you seem to be a bit reasonable. Pakistani leaders (military especially) should never have looked at India as an enemy. The moment you designate someone as an enemy, you begin to act and a reaction comes from whoever you call as an enemy. Until 1958, India and Pakistan were not that hostile. There were memories of the partition still lingering. However, when Liaqat Ali Khan was murdered with CIA’s influence, and Ayub Khan ascended the throne, everything changed. Ayub Khan was a hard core military man and he had absolute contempt for India. In 1965, he was convinced by Bhutto and others to take on a “weak” India. India was mauled by the Chinese in 1962 and its first Prime Minister had died. No one knew much about the new Prime Minister Shastri. So Pakistan sent its military / Mujahideen machinery into Kashmir. Ayub Khan was thrilled with American supplied Sabre jets and tanks. Little did he expect an Indian retaliation with troops getting close to Lahore. One more week of that war would have choked Pakistan. It is all in the history.

India as an enemy was created permanently in the Pakistani military mindset at that time and it has only worsened with time.

India is not an enemy to Pakistan. If it were, it would have gobbled up Nepal, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Burma etc. India faced serious secessionist challenges at the beginning. In that condition, it would be naive of its leaders to invade and take over another nation. They had their plates full with enough issues.

Pakistani military establishment used Islamic religious superiority, contempt for Indians in general etc to keep up their motives. If the USSR moved in closer, they would have done nothing to Pakistan. They knew Pakistan had a well structured military. They couldn’t have afforded taking in Pakistan. Had Pakistan not turned hostile against India, there would have been no need to worry about two enemies on either side.

Now the country you people relied on all these years, is slowly turning into your own enemy. You people have a lot of soul searching to do. India was turned into an enemy by your manipulative leaders and they still do not realize their mistake.

 

I totally agree with you on Pakistani military mindset regarding India as enemy No 1. Since we all know you always need a good reason to take money away from welfare projects and spend on piling weapons. Therefore, every military nations has to create an enemy in order to spend those money.

Correct me if I am wrong but like Pakistan, India also created China and Pak as its enemy and kept spending on military, otherwise if South Asian countries live in harmony, they will have much more money for people welfare projects (health, education, infrastructure and poverty alleviation) than buying drone, F-16, F18s.

Personally, I am convinced by keeping Kashmir as a part of India or Pakistan getting Kashmir as a part of India, neither of the countries will gain anything but boost to their ego. Best solution is to recognize held Kashmir as India part and Azad Kashmir as part of Pakistan, and establish this border as international border.

Posted by Abid | Report as abusive
 

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