Pakistan: Now or Never?
Perspectives on Pakistan
India not the enemy, U.S. tells Pakistan
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Pakistan’s Dawn newspaper reports from Washington that the United States is seeking fundamental change in Pakistan: it wants Pakistan, presumably the military most of all, to stop thinking of India as the enemy.
And linked with this, it wants Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence, accused of sponsoring militant groups to advance its security interests in the region, brought under effective civilian control.
Dawn says the Americans are offering Pakistan a new enemy as replacement : the militants operating along the border with Afghanistan who are increasingly striking deeper within Pakistan.
On Sunday a suicide bomber struck in a religious centre in Punjab kiling 22 people, continuing an expansion of the militant campaign into the heartland which seems to have gathered momentum over the past month.
Can it work? India as no longer the existential threat to its very identity as many in Pakistan believe?
U.S. envoy to Afghanistan and Pakistan Richard Holbrooke has begun a fresh trip to the region this week that will also take him to New Delhi, and a report released by the Asia Society just before that trip suggests ways through which America can begin reshaping perceptions in Pakistan so that it feels less threatened by its bigger neighbour.
Holbrooke and National Security Adviser General James Jones were part of the task force that worked on the report “Back from the Brink: A strategy for stabilising Afghanistan and Pakistan” before they stepped down following their appointment in the Obama administration. A PDF of the report is here.
Very broadly it calls for addressing Pakistan’s security concerns on Afghanistan, Kashmir and nuclear weapons so that “it no longer requires the use of covertly supported guerrilla forces against neighbours.”
The recommendations of the task force are: support dialogue between India and Paklstan so that they find a lasting solution to Kashmir, address Afghan-Pakistan disputes so that Afghanistan recognizes the Durand Line as the border between the two countries, and finally begin a dialogue with Pakistan over its nuclear programme including perhaps recognising the reality of its nuclear weapons.
But what about the mood over the border in India? Since the attacks in Mumbai blamed on the Pakistan-based Lashkar-e-Taiba, India has set its face against a resumption of dialogue that was in any case making fitful progress.
It is now in election mode, and if you follow the debate the mood has clearly hardened with the Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party promising a more muscular Pakistan policy.
But by making Pakistan the overarching element of its security strategy and expecting India to play its part, is the United States running the risk of ignoring the interests of New Delhi which not long ago was being celebrated as a strategic partner? Is it back to re-hyphenating india and Pakistan, as an Indian analyst here suggests?
[Reuters photo of protest in Lahore against a suicide bombing and U.S. envoy Richard Holbrooke with Afghan President Hamid Karzai]
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Abid,
I am glad I am discussing with someone who can be reasoned with.
India does not consider China as an enemy either. Countries suspect each other and compete on many fronts. China and India started out at the same time. One took the path of totalitarian governance and the other struggled hard to keep up a Western democratic governance. If Nixon had not gone to China and if Deng Xio Ping had not opened up the economy, China would have turned into a North Korea, magnified a million times.
Similarly if Nehru had died earlier, or if any of the secessionist movements inside India had succeeded within ten years of its formation, India would have ended up on a very different direction. When Indira Gandhi ruled, India almost faced the possibility of dictatorship and splintering up.
Every country has had its moments, but they always happen during infancy stages. After that the country begins to grow in a certain direction. Both India and China managed to get on the path of economic progress.
India did not wage wars on any country on its own. It acted if the situation demanded it. The amount of money and logistics involved in waging even a low intensity asymmetric war costs enormous money. Pakistani military leaders chose the wrong path during its infancy stage. ZA Bhutto had a large mandate in 1971 after Bangladesh seceded and he could have put things in place for Pakistan to progress. Instead he got overly obsessed with nuclear weapons and forgot everything else.
Most new countries, including India, try to build a dam of infrastructure and foundation which regulate the country in its path of economic progress. I am sorry to say that Pakistani leaders spent their entire energy building demolition machines that are good only for breaking things up. This is where the paths diverged. Jinnah and others had no agenda after getting a nation for Muslims. The power vacuum after Jinnah’s death that could not be filled by an able leader. The feudal system which is prevalent in the region did not allow the country to take roots properly. So the foundations became shallow and the tree never grew right.
A tree that does not grow right has shallow roots. And it will fall one day, sooner than normal. This is not my wish. But it is a normal thing that happens to even countries.
I believe Pakistan should seize the initiative. We have followed a myopic policy for more than 60 years and look at what we have achieved.
Lets make a U turn on that. India should be accepted as a neighbour and we have no right to destabilize it or launch any proxy wars because they can do the same.We dont have the resources so it is we who are losing out(good money going after bad).
Now the deal with the militants is also about to finish.Atleast they got a respite from the attacks.These lame duck generals in the army dont realize their blunders ( they just have to save their as_).
Why cant we realize we cant negotiate with these stoneaged people.Just bomb them or isolate them. They will turn against the Taliban or whoever themselves.
The pakistani military thinks India wants to conquer Pakistan and it would be easy to control 180 million people.They have not been able to control a few thousand Taliban and how do they expect India to conquer 180 million people?
All I am saying is lets start a new chapter.All proxy or destabilizing things should end and let peace get a chance and understand the existential threat of these Tribals.Lets throw them out.
Abid, First Indian PM Nehru was alive for 17yrs after independence. he died after India-China war 1962 started by China.
If you know the following, you will not give a second thought that India made an enemy out of China.
Nehru did the following:
1. Non-aligned Movement
2. Foreign Policy with China based on Five Principles of Co-existence (Panch sheel), despite Chinese invasion of Tibet—China is bigger and an act such as Tibet invasion and Nehru offers co-existence is not small.
3. Indian-Chinese Brother-brother slogan
4. But China annexes Aksai Chin—a portion of Kashmir. Indo-China 1962 war.
5. Indian offers UN permamnent memmbership to China
Quote “In 1953 or so India was offered China’s permanent seat in the UNSC then held by Taiwan but Jawaharlal Nehru rejected it saying that it was an American effort to marginalise the Communist China. In his book Nehru: The Invention of India Shashi Tharoor, a former UN Under-Secretary has also confirmed that Nehru turned down a US offer for India to take Permanent Seat in the Security Council held by Taiwan, and Nehru urged that it be offered to Beijing instead. So India missed a golden opportunity to be in the UNSC as a Permanent Member with veto.”
Now, India along with Brazil, Japan, Germany-(G-4) countries are asking for the permanent membership in UN.
But, China, Pakistan (expectedly) do not support India Quote “On July 26, 2005, five UN Member countries, Argentina, Italy, Canada, Colombia and Pakistan, representing a larger group of countries called ‘Uniting for Consensus’, proposed to General Assembly another plan that maintains five Permanent Members, and raises the number of Non-Permanent Members to 20 from 10. On April 11, 2005, China had ‘endorsed’ this proposal.”
India’s blunder was that it did not think China as an enemy of India. India should have considered that way and today both India and China would have been friends for real—not backstabbing. They lost the trust that time and you know it at pesronal level. But enigmatic Pakistan has no reason to feel India as their enemy. If Pakistanis have learnt 1000yrs of history very well, the modern Indian political system and India’s core foreign policy, the analysis would be that India is not going to attack Pakistan. Hypothetically, any time since 1947 until today, if Pakistan was/is offered on a platter to India with a trillion $$$$, India will reject the offer. Even a block-head would know that Pakistan in general represents a pure population from undivided India that has declared not to co-exist with India, so gobbling it up is a recipe for disaster. It is pity to see the myopic so-called military experts in Pakistan who feel that way and millions following them. It is just not viable for India to have Pakistan as its enemy. India wants stable Pakistan for India’s own interest. It is nice to see Pakistanis like Suleman Maniya and you Abid and some more who think objectively and do not hesitate to express that. I tell you guys if Pakistanis take 1 step forward, Indian people will take 2 steps forward—everyone has had enough of it. Indians know and Pakistanis feel the power of people. It is misperception that Army in Pakistan has saved Pakistan. Rather Pakistan is in bad shape due to Army’s policies. Could it have been worse with civil govt in control for 60yrs—I do not think so. Politics/democracy/corruption mix can be slow but there exists an auto-check system that moves the country forward.
Pakistan still has great people like Imran Khan, Asma Jehangir etc who can reach out to India and get our help. If Imran becomes in charge, trust will grow manifold. He is an honest man and really wants to do something that will make Pakistan a progressive state. He is intelligent, has fantastic leadership qualities, is charismatic, and is incorruptible. I am sure there are more people like him there. I wish Imran rises to the occasion and starts a new alternative that will lead Pakistan out of its misery. If Pakistanis can achieve that, trust me, you will get overwhelming help and good will from us Indians. You people have the resources that will put Pakistan back on track. Unfortunately you have let the villains run your country for too long.
Please tell your friends that Indians are not enemies. We have enough issues already to deal with. We have no time or enthusiasm to engage in any conflict with anyone. Somehow this change in attitude needs to spread quickly through the Pakistani public. The myth has to be broken. Only then the military can be sent back to the barracks. The Americans are not lying when they politely say that ISI is infested with militant Islamic elements. Indian RAW is nothing compared to the ISI.
If you Pakistanis reach out to us, we have nothing but goodwill. But if you sling mud, you will only see that courtesy returned. Is it worth it? Please write in your blogs about breaking the mistrust about India. Most of us do not spend our times planning our assault on Pakistan. The politicians are even worse. They are too busy consolidating their power base and making money. No one wants any war with anyone. Until Mumbai attacks, things had calmed down. IPL was a grand success. India played Australia at home. Everyone was happy. Suddenly everything got reset. It is time to start again.
Mauryan & Rajeev:
I think this change should start from intellectual lot, i am very happy to see such cool mind and sincere voices. But it seems like we have to go a long way before we could be countries like US and Canada. Usually, ego in Pakistani and Indian cultures will force smaller partner to be more stub born, because any compromise on the part of smaller partner is considered as humilliation and weakness while a compromise on a bigger partner part is considered as graciousness and greatness.
I think, India should play more positive rule, and US and other sponsors should push for real changes in term of leadership in Pakistan, and should rather make friendship with Pakistani people than Pakistani leaders.
US should start accepting leaders truely elected by people rather than creating their own partners. I do wish prosperity for all mankind especially for south asia.
Abid,
India has always been warm to countries that have extended their hands of friendship. It trusted China so much that it came as a rude shock when China attacked India in 1962. The trust was complete. The Prime Minister refused to believe that the Chinese may have ulterior plans and did not upgrade the army. He never recovered from that shock and died in 1964.
India’s friendly stance has been seen as a sign of weakness by Pakistan in the past. Indians appeared as weak and unintelligent people to the Punjabi elite in Pakistan. And that is the deep underlying reason for Pakistan’s inability to swallow every defeat at the hands of Indians. It is easy to expect the big brother for making the first move and it has been made many times in the past. Every time trust was tried, we were back stabbed – Kargil is one example. Mumbai attacks is another one. Anyway, past cannot be undone.
This time the seriousness has to come from Pakistanis. It is very rare to see people of your type who are conciliatory in gesture. Most of the time we encounter belligerent and arrogant people who have nothing but contempt towards India. I understand that it comes from ignorance and being closed from seeing the reality.
Even now it is not too late. The vast internet should be used to build friendship between people of the two nations. There is so much to gain by being friendly neighbors. Your businessmen setting up factories in India and vice versa. We know Pakistan’s immense talent in arts, music and sports. Imagine roads and railway tracks going from Chennai or Calcutta all the way to Karachi or Peshawar or even Kabul. Imagine the natural gas and oil pipe lines from Central Asia coming to the refineries in Karachi and then distributed across the sub-continent. Imagine trade, tourism and free movement of people. There is so much to gain and the idiots have ruined it all. We won’t be spending our time blaming each other. We’ll be exchanging recipes instead. It is time the bell is tied to the cat.
Umair wrote:
…the Indians are dumb and do not know how to play their cards smart. While the US seems willing to accept India as a partner, India will have to contribute towards American interests.
-Umair, it is you (and Pakistan) who is dumb. What India has with the USA is purely business and not financial and military aid like your $1.5 billion per year compensation to bury your head in the ground and surrender to Taliban in Swat.
If India does not know how to play its cards right then how do YOU explain India getting a Nuclear Deal with the USA and Pakistan not? Even though Pakistan at the times was ‘helping the USA with its war on terror or ‘Benazir Bhutto’s War’.
India soldiers will be needed to do the dirty work, fighting insurgents in Afghanistan…
-If India soldiers set foot on in Afghanistan then the Taliban in Pakistan will stand ‘shoulder-to-shoulder’ with the Pakistan Army. The USA does not want this and will not do anything to cause it.
US will prop India up against China.
-Really? wow!! Did you read Mr. Holbrooke’s mind? Did he ACTUALLY say this?
Also, the US would like India to focus in resolving regional disputes like Kashmir, here is where things get interesting.
YOU have got absolutely nothing to GLOAT about, Umair, especially when you have the Taliban from Swat muscling in closer to Islamabad. On top of that Islamabad created the Taliban for reasons of ‘strategic depth’ in Afghanistan. But now it finds that Frankenstein is killing the master. Pakistanis are dying by the dozen.
This is what Holbrooke said about India and Afghanistan:
“We can’t settle issues like Afghanistan without India’s full involvement,” he said. “India’s Afghanistan aid program parallels U.S. priorities.”
This is what Holbrooke said about India and Pakistan on the Kashmir issue:
‘We won’t push India for resuming talks with Pak’, says Holbrooke.
Holbrooke, however, acknowledged that the center of terrorism threat lies in Pakistan.
(from DAWN.com)
-Pakistan will have to undertake not to support any person or group involved in activities meant to hurt India and to allow US investigators access to individuals suspected of engaging in nuclear proliferation if it wants to qualify for a threefold increase in US economic assistance. The clause requiring such a pledge is incorporated in a bill moved in the US House of Representatives on April 2, seeking to provide $1.5 billion of annual assistance to Pakistan for a period of five years.
This means that Pakistan will have to ban all Kashmir groups involved in armed struggle in the valley against India.
Clause (K) of the bill binds Pakistan to ensure access of US investigators to ‘individuals suspected of engaging in worldwide proliferation of nuclear materials, and restrict such individuals from travel or any other activity that could result in further proliferation.’
I just finished reading the book titled, “Jihad,” by famous Pakistani writer Ahmed Rashid. In that he writes about the sinister growth of the ISI. The Central Asian republics, after the collapse of the Soviet Union, experienced a serious power vacuum. Islamic radicalism filled up that vacuum due to the proximity of Afghanistan and Al Qaeda. Pakistan’s ISI played a major role in bringing in Wahabbi preachers, books and sponsored the construction of hundreds of mosques within a short period of time. The Tajiks were going along well until the Taliban rose to power in Afghanistan. ISI began to back the Taliban and it was not viewed well in Central Asia. Nawaz Sharif, the then Prime Minister made a trip to Central Asia to expand business related to oil, pipelines etc. The ISI shot it down and wanted to build the relationship based on Islamic renaissance. Sharif was removed from power by a coup by this time.
Those who swear that the ISI was only an intelligence organization will have to think. This institution had grown beyond its boundaries into a nation maker according to its ideology. Once ideology becomes the driving force, the growth becomes sinister. It is ideology that has driven ISI and hence Pakistan to its present state. Some of the Central Asian republics are broke. Of course there is Russia’s insistence of the pipe lines going through its territory at the price it sets.
In my opinion, this war on terror in Afghanistan will turn into a war on oil and ideology and burn until all the oil is drained off. I see no end in sight. I hope the Pakistanis rise against the control that the ISI has over them and their elected leaders.
Mauryan wrote:
“Pakistan still has great people like Imran Khan, Asma Jehangir etc who can reach out to India and get our help.”
Mauryan, i think your mentality of agian and again asking Pakistan to get help from India seems you feel Pakistan is too weak, helpless, faltering. That Pakistan is begging to get help from India.
My man, never, we dont need clutches to walk, we dont need India’s help at all. You guys just help yourselves out of poverty and communal violence and corruption. Take care of your own lot, Pakistan is in extremely safe hands and doing pretty well. We will lend you our help if you guys want.
Mauryan writes:
“Those who swear that the ISI was only an intelligence organization will have to think. This institution had grown beyond its boundaries into a nation maker according to its ideology. Once ideology becomes the driving force, the growth becomes sinister. It is ideology that has driven ISI and hence Pakistan to its present state. Some of the Central Asian republics are broke. Of course there is Russia’s insistence of the pipe lines going through its territory at the price it sets. ”
Mauryan I am absolutely appalled by the obsession Indians generally have with the ISI. For so much ISI bashing I can tell you you guys owe it to ISI for everything. The US uses leverage over Islamabad to tame ISI for anti- India activities, otherwise you cant even imagine what ISI can unleash upon you. First let India prove itself that its not Pakistan’s enemy, than ISI will soften upo against India. Until now we havent seen the attitude change in India, same old mentality. Unless you guys show humility, ISI will keep breathing down your necks.
@The US uses leverage over Islamabad to tame ISI for anti-India activities, otherwise you cant even imagine what ISI can unleash upon you.
-POSTED BY UMAIR
-If ISI is unleashed in India, there will be a lot of collateral damage in Pakistan, through these very actions. I think u need to identify the friends and enemy in this mess.
Umair,
just for facts, many in India have not heard of ISI. ON the other hand, although RAW is inactive for last ~15yrs in Pakistan, I imagine RAW is known by every Pakistani–correct me if I am wrong.
Umair writes: “My man, never, we dont need clutches to walk, we dont need India’s help at all. You guys just help yourselves out of poverty and communal violence and corruption. Take care of your own lot, Pakistan is in extremely safe hands and doing pretty well. We will lend you our help if you guys want.”
We sure need your help. Thanks for coming forward. Here is the list:
1. Dismantle LeT and hand over all their leaders to Indian authorities for Mumbai attack investigation.
2. Send Dawood Ibrahim back to India to complete 1993 Mumbai blasts.
3. Close down all terrorist training camps that are targeting India.
4. Clean up your Madrasas and build modern schools.
5. Change your history text books that contain lies about your country’s achievements.
6. Denuclearize and hand over all facilities to international authorities.
7. Get out of Afghanistan.
8. Give up claims to Kashmir. Honor 1972 Simla accord.
9. Agree to the self determination of Balochis and give their nation back to them. Balochistan never wanted to be a part of Pakistan and it was annexed forcibly by Pakistan’s military in 1947. Read about its history on the internet.
10. Most of all learn to trust India and stop believing that Indians are your enemies.
Complete all this and then we will have a friendly chai in Lahore.
Umair writes: “The US uses leverage over Islamabad to tame ISI for anti- India activities, otherwise you cant even imagine what ISI can unleash upon you. First let India prove itself that its not Pakistan’s enemy, than ISI will soften upo against India.”
ISI has been trying to play a lead role for the Islamic world. Anti India activity is probably about 50%. The remaining was directed at expanding Pakistan’s influence in Afghanistan and Central Asia. That’s none of our business. But with the actions in Afghanistan and Central Asia completely curtailed, only anti-India actions remain. And the ISI is trying to deflect American advance by triggering violence inside India – Mumbai is a classic example of this. There will be more coming. The more they do it, the more they will be zeroed in, especially by the Americans. They have realized that ISI is the core of the problem and they will do something about it if it does not get rid off the elements that are sustaining their anti-Indian and pro-jihadist policies. And American financial aid has been tied to non-activities inside India. At some point, the ISI will become isolated.
We are concerned about the ISI because it has become like the drug cartels in South and Central America. These cartels run countries rather than recognized governments. This means, a legitimate government like the US cannot do business with it, since the legitimate government is not the ISI. Americans cannot contain drug traffiking across their borders and are concerned about it a lot. This does not mean they are afraid of them. Likewise, India is concerned about the ISI, but do not think your ISI is feared. Don’t people avoid criminals? Does that mean they are afraid of them? No. ISI has become a criminal organization. You may think otherwise. But no one cares. Tomahawk is headed towards your ISI head quarters in the near future. Take nice pictures of it now itself. You won’t have it standing for too long.
Mauryan My Answers:
1. Dismantle LeT and hand over all their leaders to Indian authorities for Mumbai attack investigation.
2. Send Dawood Ibrahim back to India to complete 1993 Mumbai blasts.
3. Close down all terrorist training camps that are targeting India.
4. Clean up your Madrasas and build modern schools.
5. Change your history text books that contain lies about your country’s achievements.
6. Denuclearize and hand over all facilities to international authorities.
7. Get out of Afghanistan.
8. Give up claims to Kashmir. Honor 1972 Simla accord.
9. Agree to the self determination of Balochis and give their nation back to them. Balochistan never wanted to be a part of Pakistan and it was annexed forcibly by Pakistan’s military in 1947. Read about its history on the internet.
10. Most of all learn to trust India and stop believing that Indians are your enemies.
———————————————————-
1. Not possible before we sign an extradition treaty.
2. Pakistan is member of interpol, send an official request to interpol and we will handover Dawood Ibrahim to interpol since there is no extradition treaty with India.
3. Close down all Indian consulates in Afghanistan that are targeting Baluchistan.
4. Madrassa reforms started back by President Musharraf, most of them are teaching computers, foreigners are documented etc. Higher education commision is looking after higher ed, while the government in Punjab offers free text books. We are working to upgrade our education sector.
5. Pakistan is a great country with many achievements, Olympic Gold medals, Physics Nobel Laurets, Mens hockey world champions, Cricket thrillers, sports enthusiasts, etc. We are proud to be Pakistanis and history will repeat itself. We will reclaim our lost titles one by one.
6. Nuclear weapons are the right of a soverign nation like Pakistan facing multiple enemies. IAEA(Intl. Atomic Energy Agency) is there, complain to them if you feel threatened.
7. With an estimated total population of 42 million, Pashtuns are the world largest ethnic group 28 million settled in Pakistan while 13 million in Afghanistan. The Durand line is not a proper recognized border. Pakistan and Afghanistan are almost one and the same country.
8. Kashmir runs in our blood, it is our Jugular vein, we cannot betray 80,000 martyred freedom fighters. Respect the UN security council resolutions on Kashmir.
9. The sun of colonialism has disappeared below the horizon for ever, Pakistan is a nation of 170 million muslims, Sindhi Baluchi Kashmiri, Punjabi, Pathans, we are one under one flag. Any attempt to create destablization in Baluchistan will be met with full force. Baluchis are proud Pakistanis.
10. Actions speak louder than words, dont scream on top of your voice, take concrete actions on ground. Apprehend hindu fundamentalists like Col. Purohit of Indian Army who bombed and killed Pakistani citizens in Samjhota Express train.
Even after all these differences I am prepared to come down Mumbai and bring some snacks. If you choose to prepare some tea, our meeting will remain pleasent.
Mauryan you are unaware of the reach of ISI, during the Bosnian war when Serbs perpertrated worst genocide of 8000 muslims in Srebrenica when Bosnians were besieged in Sarajevo for 43 months, when they used to go out of their house to get bread Serb snipers gunned them down. Under Lt. Gen Javed Nasir, ISI shipped Anti Tank Guided Missiles(ATGMs) the ship was intercepted. The arms confiscated and investigated and found to be shipped by ISI for muslim brothers in Bosnia. Undettered the ISI airdropped ATGMs in Bosnia and they broke free the siege and fought back Serb tanks and artrillery.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javed_Nasir
Where was Europe and America the so called champions of human rights and democracy. Why did the Dutch coward Army(UN Peacekeepers) withdraw from UN safe houses during Bosnian war? Why did Radovan Karadzic and Gen. Ratko Mladic single out 8000 muslim men and killed them and carried out genocide in the heart of europe.
ISI is being made an escapegoat for US failures in Afghanistan. Most of CIA officers work under the ISI, remember one thing Mauryan, just google AFGHAN JIHAD and read the whole article. Google OPERATION CYCLONE the longest covert operation by CIA to arm Mujahideen against soviets, that was implemented onground by ISI. ISI was given billions of dollars, ISI called the shots, chose which pro-Pakistan Mujahideen factions to arm and which not. ISI literally controlled entire Afghan war strategy to bleed the soviets out of Afghanistan. The US knows the moment it locks a missile on ISI headquarters on Islamabad, it will be bled to death in Afghanistan.
Umair boasts: “you are unaware of the reach of ISI”
Of course I am aware of the reach of the ISI. That is why I want it dismantled and buried. What does Pakistan think of itself? An imperial super power that has to be operating everywhere? Who is your country trying to imitate? Pakistan can never equal the USA and the ISI is no CIA. So stay confined to your borders and do something constructive. If ISI is such a benevolent institution, ask them to volunteer for Mother Teresa charity in Calcutta.
Umair writes again: “ISI is being made an escapegoat for US failures in Afghanistan. Most of CIA officers work under the ISI, ”
US has not finished its business in Afghanistan or Pakistan. So wait patiently. They will kick your rear end soon. CIA officers work under the ISI? Remove that blind fold and take a look around. ISI building is now a target for a Tomahawk missile. Try not being anywhere near it when it hits. I want to send your comments to the Colbert show in the US. He will have the audience laughing away to glory.
If you talk too much, the US will send your women to college. Remember that.
Mauryan
If missiles and B-52 could defeat nations and conquer countries then by now US should have already cleaned up Afganistan, and should have pumped out all oil from Iraq. But if you rewind your clock to 1979 and watch history unfolded in slow motion, you could understand what US could do with all their weapon and what can ISI do with all its tactics.
Its not that US or India are very patienate or very civilized that they want to resolve issues through dialogue or through someone else force such as Pak should dismental ISI or NATO/PAK should help kill terrorists, rather it is because India know ISI power and US also get to know ISI during Afgan war, and also both countries leadership did learn good lessons from various conflicts around the world.
In Pakistan, atleast people have a uniting force, and that is faith in ISlam, while in India, it is like a closed can of worm, if you leak it from somewhere, it will follow same path as USSR.
Abid,
we in India are humans. We would rather not unite under rabid religious fervour, that too an Islamic one which is as supremacist as it gets. Sorry, we would like to live like humans and not like religious automatons.
Abid,
you did get me to think about what really binds us in India –
Is it the spirit of humanness – love, affection, tolerance, co-existence?
Is it peace, progress, dynamism and economic empowerment?
Is it history, culture, traditions, music and food?
We got it all. People better than me can perhaps answer better.
India not the enemy, U.S. tells Pakistan
Hima Bindu:
Everyone who willingly decided to be part of Pakistan in 1947 indirectly stated that they will not co-exist with India since they are Muslims. 1 billion Indians are co-existing very well. Muslims killed more Muslims in divided Pakistan than all the minorities in India. Those who cannot co-exist side-by side cannot co-exist as neighbors; hard for them to understand Indian diversity and the Indian political sytem. what they think is India’s weakness is in fact India’s strength. Radical Islam/Zia/Army/ISI/coups/non-democratic political system/terrorism as permanent tool—Oh my Pakistan has long way to go. God bless Pak.
Hima Bindu
To me among your options only “history, traditions, music and food” make sense to be uniting bond among indian.
Abid,
Thanks for vindicating Rajeev!
Abid writes: “If missiles and B-52 could defeat nations and conquer countries then by now US should have already cleaned up Afganistan, and should have pumped out all oil from Iraq. But if you rewind your clock to 1979 and watch history unfolded in slow motion, you could understand what US could do with all their weapon and what can ISI do with all its tactics.”
War has changed a lot compared to yesteryears. To gain ground in far away lands, air force plays a major part. First clean out the enemy territory by using smart bombs that take out key installations, air ports, runways, air defense systems, intelligence buildings, undergroun bunkers, roads, bridges etc. Keep bombing until the military in the enemy territory goes clueless about how to retaliate. Leadership runs out of ideas and find hiding spots. At this time, surround with ground forces and move them in carefully in stages. This is phase II of the war. And how long it achieves the objectives depends upon the terrain, knowledge of the terrain etc.. In some countries the people look for outside forces to come and liberate them. In such cases, as soon as the ground forces arrive, the game is over. Liberation of Bangladesh is an example. The end of Khmer Rouge when Vietnam sent its troops is another.
In some places, the ground forces have to build the bridges of trust, reliability and provide a system that was absent prior to the war. The British were welcomed into the Indian sub-continent in many places because they provided an administrative system that helped the common people more. The zameendars and feudal lords, kings etc had turned indifferent in many places and spent their money and times waging wars. This takes a lot of time. When religion, culture are totally alien, the ground forces need a lot of time to understand and respect the locals and reach out to them.
In today’s war strategies, a small enemy tries to thwart the efforts of the invaders by engaging in insurgency in order to prevent them from setting up a system in place that is acceptable to the locals. It is easy to damage buildings, create panic and disappear than build a government. The efforts of the American led coalition in Afghanistan is getting slowed down due to this problem. The mistake they made was walk into Iraq for no reason, when Afghanistan needed 100% attention. But they are back now with full effort. So it will bear effort slowly.
At this time Pakistan should be careful not to give safe haven to the militants who are trying to destabilize the efforts of the allies in getting Afghanistan back on its feet. This is where the association and support of the ISI is being realized. It would be good for the Pakistani military to get rid off the jihadist elements inside the ISI and cleanse it completely. I think the Americans know pretty much everything about the ISI. They just want the Pakistanis to clean up for themselves. If they are not being sincere in their efforts, the Americans will do it for them. That was my point.
@Abid
“Hima Bindu
To me among your options only “history, traditions, music and food” make sense to be uniting bond among indian.”
–Yes, & having a bondage of religious bigotry, tyranny & terrorism are alien to our culture.
Rajeev
—Read this – what umair was upto on May 12, 2007 in Karachi…
http://www.chowk.com/articles/11978
“Here in Karachi, we avoid ‘name calling’ and ‘finger pointing’ due to fear of having our knees drilled…”
“On May 12, 2007, Karachi witnessed orchestrated mayhem. Such carnage is hardly unique to Karachi or to Pakistan — law enforcement agencies have stood by and even participated in worse massacres elsewhere, like Northern Ireland and Gujarat, India.”
Mauryan,
I will say it is more of your dream than point but based on my last 15+ years experience of interaction with many educated americans, I could say with confidence that US do want to weaken terrorists to the point that they should not be any serious threat to US. But as far as going all the way to bomb Pakistan and destroy them, I do not think in presents world any country will do any such mistake.
Any chance of such adventure was very eminent soon after 9/11 but Musharaf being a military person, played very smartly and rather cashed the situation. Unfortunately, he could not stayed focused on his real task rather joined hands with curropt politicians (PML-Q and MQM) and in order to cash more money from US, he waged a war against Pukhtoons and Baluch, thus reached to his conclusion.
Abid,
It is not my wish that Americans go to war with Pakistan. War is evil and it never brings an end to anything. I taunt people like Umair just to irritate them. Please do not take my words literally. I am a spiritual person and will not want to see innocent people die for no reason. No one on blogs can do anything other than vomit whatever they want. I have very good friends who are from Pakistan and we never talk India-Pakistan politics when we meet.
I finished reading the book, “Front line Pakistan,” by Zahid Hussein, a reputed writer. What he describes about the issues in Pakistan are incredibly complex. I don’t think one can point a finger at anyone or anything for today’s status. Though there is a common dislike and mistrust towards India in most Pakistanis, the factional issues confronting the nation are too many. I began to feel sorry for Musharraf as I read the book. He had to balance his act and walk on a thin rope. He had the Americans breathing down his shoulders. As a patriotic Pakistani, he had to protect his nation first. Whatever he did turned a lot of militant factions against him. There were assassination attempts on his life. Interestingly he was tipped off by the Indian intelligence agency when the first attempt was made by HuJ and he managed to escape from that. He had to tell the Kashmiri militants that Pakistan will not be supporting their efforts as per American orders and he managed to handle it very well. That changed his perspective on what needs to be done with India. He started the back channel diplomacy with India’s Prime Minister and they came very close to offering a revolutionary breakthrough on Kashmir. The effort taken by the Pakistani military against Al Qaeda in Karachi and other areas that broke their backs is very well described. It was not an easy thing to do, considering the fact that there are a lot of sympathizers for these organizations within the Pakistani establishment. But after reading this book, I’d say Musharraf did a commendable job. His position weakened considerably after making a U turn on Kashmir and he lost support from his military sub-ordinates. The author clearly shows the menace that is beginning to eat Pakistan from within. I wish you guys all the best in defeating the jihadi cancer and eradicating it completely. I don’t think it is a good idea for us Indians to do anything other than offer moral support. The US is going after the ISI, because without cleansing the ISI of militant elements, it would be impossible to get their objectives met in Waziristan. The democratic government is a puppet and changes have to come from within. I have begun to read Ahmed Rashid’s work, “Descent into chaos.” I am sure that will offer me more insights. I do not envy you guys. You do have a serious problem and I hope you will defeat it.
I just now finished reading about Ojhri Camp Incident. An army depot in Ojhri caught fire and rained missiles and shells in Islamabad and Rawalpindi area. Some 5k people had died in the accident.
Not many indians know it and not many pakistani discuss it.
Paki govt have kept the whole issue under wrap (Just like BB murder)
A book called “Bear Trap” throws some light (or conspiracy theory) that the Ammunition was destroyed by Pak Army (Yes the same Professional army of Umair) to escape scrutiny by the Americans of missing arms. And hence the findings were never made public.
The Army that Pakistani thinks are their protectors killed 5k innocent Pakistanis!
chirkut
—Oh, this is normal in Pakistan, don’t be surprised even if they ‘nuke’ themselves just for the heck of it…
“The Army that Pakistani thinks are their protectors killed 5k innocent Pakistanis!”
Did they blame RAW for it ??
punjabiyaar
—Oh, ask umair & he’ll say 5k pakistani lives are short change for the Pak Army…(they have a monumental task of eliminating 170m. pakis, poor guys begging India to help but we won’t oblige, so they turned towards the Americans for help & they’re obliging them & also target practicing with their drones..lol)
Sanjeev new topic: Pakistan within months of collapse.
http://www.smh.com.au/world/warning-that -pakistan-is-in-danger-of-collapse-withi n-months-20090412-a40u.html
It all started when Stinger missiles were found in Iran. US at that time had given Stinger to only Israel and Pakistan (to be used in Afghanistan). So US sent auditors to both countries to find out how the stinger had reached Iran. When the US auditors plane was touching Rawalpindi the Ammunition depot caught fire.
There are two major line of thinking on who was behind the sabotage. One theory says that Pak Army did it. Some say in order to keep stinger missiles for themselves. So they moved the missiles away before putting fire to the depot. The other deviation is that the missile was sold to Iranian by the “Professional army” in the black market to line their pocket. and hence they destoryed the evidence.
The other theory peddled by paki chauvinist is that Pak army cannot do this thing to their country and it was done by CIA to leave nothing to Pakistan after end of Afghan war. This theory however fails to explain how stinger reached Iran.
Some days after that Haq’s plane crashed allegedly sabotaged by CIA.
Punjabiyaar writes: “Pakistan within months of collapse”
Let us not wish for it. This kind of collapse will not be controllable and might pose a dangerous threat to the whole region. I’d prefer a controlled split up of Pakistan into many countries, just to save the world. I don’t think Pakistanis themselves are capable of saving themselves and others. The US cannot go it alone in its efforts. I needs to call for a meeting of world powers – China, Russia, UK, France, India, Japan and propose a plan that will save the world and moderate Pakistanis who are helpless. If you read the works by Pakistani authors like Tariq Ali, Ahmed Rashid etc., the ground reality has gone beyond any redemption. Religious zeal is worse than the nuclear weapons. Look at the attitude of vermin like Umair. They are educated, but have shown the attitude of religious bigots. Pakistan is beginning to change into a country similar to Hitler’s Nazi Germany where hatred for others fuels unity and motivates them for nothing but war. I see all symptoms of degeneration. Just like they broke the back of Nazis, world powers have to break the back of Islamic radicalism. It has lost self control and will burn the world if not curtailed. Cutting up Pakistan into smaller nations will help in isolating problem areas and focus the energy more efficiently there. I think most issues are erupting from the Punjabi heartland and Pashutnistan. The other areas seem somewhat reasonable. Though I do not like to see this, I see no other alternative.
Sorry it was global watcher. Sorry Punjabiyaar.
Mauryan,
What ever it takes for the world to be safe from Extremist Islam in Pakistan. The U.S., along with the UN and its allies have to seriouly discuss a controlled Balkanized disintegration or a controlled failure of Pakistan.
Basically the Army is inept and corrupt and lack the ability to rule, as they only rule it for their own profit. The civilians in Pakistan seem to favour radicalization and Islam over their own sovereignty and a Radical Islamic Pakistan is unacceptable to the World as a Radical Islamic government would purge the Army of any common sense or moderates who may be there, especially the ones controlling the nukes.
When Pakistan does fail, it will be sudden and take everybody by surprise as hundreds of Taliban cells awake at the same time, all around Pakistan. India, the U.S. and the world need to be ready for this.
It will be dirty, bloody and messy. It is like a Tsunami out at sea, which is coming inland. It cannot be stopped but we can take steps to limit the damage as much as possible.
India, the US and its allies need to be prepared to be in a state of high operational readiness with the Army, Navy and Marines, should Pakistan collapse. The plan to get those nukes must be ready to be acted upon quickly and swiftly.
I think Barack Obama is too late. If Bush had of finished Afghanistan and Pakistan right after 911, reforming and mending Pakistan’s ways would have been much easier at that time and would have strengthened Pakistan into a more stable democracy. But now most efforts will fruitless.
It appears that the Islamic experiment has come to an end. Islamic countries cannot have nukes. If they do, Pakistan is the result.
@Mauryan,
One more thing, whatever the U.S. and India are going to do with Pakistan, with regards to the nxkes, it is best to do it now. It makes little sense to be reactive and make a plan when the disaster strikes. Better any action be proactive than reactive. It will save much more lives in the end.
Sanjeev, new topic, Pakistan on verge of collapse, please see.
http://www.nationalpost.com/news/world/s tory.html?id=1485665
Global Watcher @Mauryan,
One more thing, whatever the U.S. and India are going to do with Pakistan, with regards to the nxkes, it is best to do it now. It makes little sense to be reactive and make a plan when the disaster strikes. Better any action be proactive than reactive. It will save much more lives in the end.
- Posted by Global Watcher
US had lost a unique opportunity to do the above in the immediate aftermath of 911, when the entire world stood by it, since it was seen as the worst victim of terror. The diplomatic activity was so intense the then PM of India, Vajpayee, went on national TV mentioning of “tough times ahead” in preparation for an inevitable regional war. Obviously, US wanted to use indian airfields/soil to take out paks strategic assets first, before launching an attack on afghan. After all, Afghans ruling govt (of Taliban) was the brainchild of Pak. Quickly, then, Mushy had chickened out with this development and you know the rest of the story.
The myriad of problems pakis riddled with has no easy or quick solution. More bloodshed and drama is to unfold in near future, resulting in its case for aid gaining an upswing. The fact of the matter is that paks should accept the conditional aid from USA for their survival. In turn, paying a price of getting all the beating from taliban/ al qaidas anti national agenda, who declared us as their enemy. Pak wont fall or fail folks, there will be internal mayhem notwithstanding. Symptoms of disaster striking the region will be pronounced way ahead of the said fateful day. So there is time to act- it is too soon today to act as there is a price tag attached to this kind of intervention. For now the army, ISI and civil administration, collectively, are still in control of the country. All that they have to do is to keep Taliban/ alqaida in good humor.
Forced marriage can not last forever, Baloch leaders are ruthlessly eliminated on a large scale, they will act soon. Thus, another split is a feasible option and will contain the terror in the region, as each segment of pak has a different political ideology their future global agenda will look like more talk and less action. Its that much hilarious that paks demand more land from neighbors when they can not keep what already is theirs. Splitville is the best recourse. World will be a safer place.
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn -content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/colu mnists/irfan-husain-the-high-cost-of-sur render
Dawn also says that India is not the enemy, it is Taliban et al.—–
“Imagine too that the enemy’s stated goal is nothing short of the capture of state power. Surely these acts would have constituted a declaration of war.
In this scenario, all political parties would have united to face this aggression. The media would have been full of patriotic songs and messages to urge the nation to support the government and the military in defending Pakistan. And above all, the armed forces would not have hesitated in playing their role.
Anybody suggesting a dialogue with the invader, or justifying the attack, would be denounced as a traitor and a defeatist.
So my question is why isn’t all this happening now? True, the aggressors are mostly home-grown terrorists, but the damage they have been inflicting is just as lethal as any bombs dropped from the skies. Their acts must, under any definition, count as an open declaration of civil war. And yet, wide sections of public opinion and the media are sitting on the fence. Many leading politicians have yet to publicly denounce the Taliban as enemies of the state. And the army has yet to demonstrate that it is serious about fighting this war.”
About Pakistan demanding free flow of US$$$$$ into pakistan “But as we are about to discover, there really is no such thing as a free lunch.”
If you’ll Qn Nawaz Sharif about Taliban, you’ll not get to interview him.—–
“One senior journalist in Islamabad told me that when reporters seek an interview with Nawaz Sharif, they must first agree not to ask any direct questions about the Taliban. If this is true, it shows that the PML-N leader does not want to either condemn or support the jihadis openly. Being a canny politician, he does not wish to alienate his core support among reactionary elements. Nor does he want to upset Washington. But wars are not won through such tactical hedging”
One good thing-slogan is there
“One positive outcome of this atrocity coming to public knowledge is that it has opened many eyes to the reality of the Taliban, and what they represent. The flogging has ignited protests across the country. I participated in one in Lahore last week. I was glad to see that apart from many old friends, a large number of young people and students also took part in the march. One popular slogan was: ‘Pakistan kay do shaitan: fauj aur uskay Taliban’ (‘Pakistan’s two demons: the army and its Taliban’). My favourite banner at the rally asked: ‘$12 billion in aid to fight terrorism. Where is it?’ Where indeed?”
Clearly, the establishment is not enjoying having its reluctance to fight held up under a spotlight. As in the past, it wants the promised flow of dollars to remain unimpeded by any serious questions about its will to carry the fight to the Taliban. Our television warriors echo this sentiment, and demand that the country should not follow ‘American dictates’.
According to a recent article in Der Spiegel, the respected German daily: ‘The (Pakistan) military avoids serious confrontation with the extremists. Many officers still do not see the Taliban as their enemy. Pakistan’s true enemy, in their view, is India… Quite a few officers say that the fight against terrorism in the north-western part of the country is being forced upon them by the Americans and that they are fighting the wrong war…. A Pakistani two-star general candidly explained the mindset of his fellow military commanders … noting that although the army is fighting the Taliban at the instructions of politicians, it also supports the militants….’
Pakistan is beginning to look like a mental asylum that is being taken over by the patients. It sure has doctors, security guards etc, but they are busy throwing the chairs at each other. To the outsiders, it is difficult to make out who is mentally delinquent and who is not. It is beginning to go out of control exponentially.
So if India gets affected in the bargain, our leaders should not retaliate directly with the military. The military should be used to defend our territories as much as possible, while covert operations are launched in order to speed up the disintegration of Pakistan. In this regard, India might have to go to bed with other countries for controlling the damage to the minimum.
I think time has come to a point where moderate Pakistanis will have no control over their nation with madmen expanding into their powerful systems of defense and intelligence. They have no nation. They have the military, intelligence and a dangerous radical ideology. The three are like nitroglycerine, fuse and flame put together. They do not like the Americans closing in. And they are frustrated. Before that frustration turns into an ire over India for no reason, our government must start preparing itself for the next course of action. They should not wait for the occasion to present itself.
I do wish well for moderate people everywhere. But Pakistan today is better than Pakistan tomorrow. And it will get worse with time as things escalate. If the Taliban manages to get hold of Islamabad, civil was will erupt. Military will be divided between moderates and the supporters of radicalism. The latter will gain upper hand. This will prevent Pakistan from working with the US in capturing Bin Laden. So the US might run into Waziristan and burn its hands. There are going to be many battles see-sawing between the various parties involved. If the US grows impatient, it might promote another military take over that gets to suppress all the uprising brutally. This gamble will fail and the US might decided to go after the nukes. Chaos will erupt that might bring China into the picture. China wants Pakistan to be backwards and as its regional lackey. The US might act in a hurry seeing China. This means a direct attack on Pakistan’s defense installations and infrastructure. This will lead to the final and bloody disintegration of Pakistan by 2012. If China acts quickly, the US and China might face each other too.
We must see what India must do. Hope our leaders rise to the occasion and keep the country prepared to face the situation that is going out of control. It doesn’t matter what lunatics like Umair might say. A mental patient will never admit he is mental. To him thing will appear as normal. One has to view things from outside.
Brace yourself for the worse things to come.
@Hima Bindu
To me among your options only “history, traditions, music and food” make sense to be uniting bond among indian.
- Posted by Abid
–Abid, so clearly u do not know India then. Even based on above, food, traditions, music are not the uniting bond. Food varies in every 100-500Km. Traditions too if u look at the diversity—Among Hindus itself from place to place. Music in South (carnatic) and North (Hindustan Classical) are entirely different. Besides many do not understand classical and the folk music varies.
The obviously existing Indian unity is strong and lies in its diversity at all levels and one finds his/her o
–Abid, so clearly u do not know India then. Yes History is mostly common–Indian independence for example—many contributed for that cause. But food, traditions, music are not shared by all Indians. Food varies every 100-500Km. Same with the traditions. Music in South (carnatic) and North (Hindustan Classical) are entirely different, besides how many really know the technicalities of the music. Folk music/dance varies also.
I can understand if some non-Indian is struggling to understand the mystery behind the obviously existing Indian unity. Simply it lies in the diversity at all levels and independence to practice and maintain it. Even before 1947 the co-existence has come naturally to Indians due to increasing pluralism; co-existence is the survival mechanism, better still the way to progress. It is not a post-1947 phenomenon. Post-1947, Indians of all religions owe a lot to Indian constitution too. Despite all the possible negative factors the political system has, it has checks and balances that ultimately does not let the unity break. I have Muslim friends from different parts of India—North India (UP) and Tamil. They are so different but just very Indian like any one else and speak local language and participate in the customs of non-Muslims; same goes for Parsis, Sikhs and Christians. So for Indians, 1947 has just been another date. The way I look at it is that since it is not possible to narrow down the unity and the bonds to few factors, it is not possible to break it.
Ahmed Rashid in his book, “Descent into chaos” says that the Western powers should not have focussed just on Afghanistan. He says the whole region covering Central Asian states, Afghanistan and Pakistan need a Marshall plan to restructure everything, take away tyrants and religious extremists and put modern governments in place. Central Asia has been sitting on top of huge oil and natural gas reserves and Russia has kept them backward in order to exercise control over them and take the oil revenues for itself. There is huge population of youth in all these states that are in extreme poverty and unemployment. Religious radicalism is the only thing available to them and they have begun to eat the region from within. This whole region needs international attention and careful plan for reforms.
I’d suggest that they redraw the borders again in these regions. Enclose all Pashtun majority areas into Afghanistan or Pashtunistan. Allow the regions under Kyrgyz, Tajik, Uzbek minorities in today’s Afghanistan to merge with their respective nations. Attach the region of Hazaras to Iran. Merge Azad Kashmir with Indian Kashmir. Reduce Pakistan to its Punjab province. Make Sindh and Balochistan into separate states. Remove all nukes from this region. Replace their militaries with an international one under UN supervision. Destroy religious seminaries and take them back to 1970 level. Build roads, railway tracks, pipelines from central asia all the way to the docks of Karachi and other port cities. Build roads that go from Delhi all the way to Samarkand or Bukhara so that trade goods can be reached to far flung destinations. Build schools, factories etc so that people can go to work and stay away from reading the quran all day long and grow beard on the face and hatred in the hearts. It would take about 50 years of sustained effort to turn this region around. The people of these region are helpless. They need to be brought to the 21st century by sustained international effort. This is one option that can get the world to safe level.
@Sanjeev
Sanjeev, we need more moderation when it comes to religion. These blogs should never become a posting ground for religious supremacy. Please block out all references to religious supremacy in discussions. When one person makes an insult about another’s religion, it invites tit for tat postings and causes the blog to greatly deviate.
It should perhaps even be posted that religious hatred and bigotry will not be tolerated by reuters.
I as an Indian Hindu, will stand up for the rights of all religions here, let it stand for the record.
Thanks in advance.
Global watcher
Sane words of wisdom thank you. Let me add here, can we also include nationalism to religion as well. Some bloggers also have a habit of bashing others as a country/nation. You might want to stand for nationalism along with religion. Would that make sense? Countries exist of land where ‘people’ live. No country is good or bad, its the people living in it that matter and most of them are generally good.
Umair,
I have to humbly disagree with one thing with you. For me, I am a human being before a Hindu. I am Indian second and Hindu third. This is the order and the logical way it has to be, for all to be able to live with each other in a respectful way. This creates the basis for pluralism, democracy and secularity. I think Pakistan, although it may have worked from its inception, has to redefine itself in more modern concept, rather than a religious one. If Pakistan can do this, Pakistan will be very prosperous and India and Pakistan can one day have an “open” border.
For any country to be progressive, democratic, advanced, forward thinking the individual has to be first:
1)identified as an equal human being to all others, regardless of religion, culture, sex or political group
2)identified as national of his or her country
3)identified with regards to his or her religion
Just think about it, that is why so many different people in India cal live together. In Pakistan, this order is completely reversed, and this is one of the root causes of so many of its problems. Pakistan will be incapable of democracy if it does not follow the above order.
I respect you considering yourself a muslim first.
But I beg you to step back and reconsider that in a modern day context and consider the butcher, wars, old hatreds, wars and millions who have died. Consider religious equality and tolerance, then you will understand why I say a person is human, then country then religion third.
If you could step back for a second and use your imagination to visualize what is possible on a grander scale, if a person is a human being first. Do not be afraid to question or challenge what you have been told from Childhood. Learning is a lifelong process, sometimes you have to scrap old notions and old ways of thinking and looking at things and ask yourself, are these rules applicable today in a modern day context?
@Sanjeev
So this forum is officially for Indian to bash Pakistan, that is why you removed some comments?