Can Pakistan’s ISI sever ties with Taliban?

April 13, 2009

The United States has begun demanding rather publicly that Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence make a clean break of its ties with the Afghan Taliban to help stabilise the situation in Afghanistan.

But can you force a country to act against its self-interest, despite all all your leverage, asks Robert D. Kaplan  in a piece for the Atlantic. And does it make sense for an intelligence agency to break off all contact with arguably the biggest player in the region?

Since President Barack Obama placed Pakistan at the centre of his strategy to fight the Afghan war, the debate over the ISI has gotten more open and more heated. Some Pakistani officials and experts with links to the establishment have taken exception to the United States openly painting the spy agency in enemy colours, accusing elements within it of supporting the Talibam.

Kaplan argues that Pakistan’s geography as well as a history of instability makes it almost impossible for it to cut ties to the radical Islamists. Pakistan and Afghanistan have a long and unruly border and that alone would make it necessary for security agencies to build a network of contacts with the principal players in Afghanistan.

On top of that, Pakistanis tend to see Afghanistan through the prism of the country’s unending conflict with India. “When they look to the west they envison an “islamisation” of Afghanistan and other Central Asian countries with which to face off against Hindu-dominated India to the east,” Kaplan writes.

So just as Israel will not scale back settlements in the occupied territories, frustrating U.S. peace efforts, or South Korea will from time to time extend an olive branch to North Korea, undermining U.S. efforts to contain the communist state, Pakistan, another one of America’s allies is not going to act against its core interest, he says. You can tell Pakistan to stop helping the Taliban plan and carry out operations, but you can’t tell them to cut links to the militant group altogether.

But isn’t Pakistan itself threatened by the Taliban? “Quetta Burns. Karachi on Edge. Islamabad on Alert”  ran a headline on the popular blog All Things Pakistan. Author Adil Najam says he wouldn’t recommend reading Pakistani newspapers for the faint-hearted. It’s a perfect storm, and if this doesn’t threaten Pakistan’s core interest what does?

[A protest in Karachi and Pakistan Prime Minister Gilani with chairman of the U.S. Senate Foreign Relations Committe John Kerry]

181 comments

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India threatens Pakistan more than the Taliban millitants, India dismembered Pakistan in 1971 and is still itching for another opportunity. Fortunatelyt, this time ISI is more powerful and Pakistan has nuclear weapons. If ISI is being accused openly of supporting the millitants, let is be known openly that ISI will keep protecting Pakistan’s national interests just like the MOSSAD does for Israel and CIA does for the US, MI5 for the UK, KGB for Russia and RAW for India.

I read in the Daily Urdu ‘Jang’ on Sunday that seven intelligence agencies are teaming up and establishing a joint action council in Kabul, those seven exclude ISI and are forming an alliance against ISI/Pakistan. Today ISI is being made an escape goat for coalition failures in Afghanistan. Fact is, ISI is today what CIA made it through OPERATION CYCLONE. ISI under its longest serving DG General Akhtar Abdul Rehman conducted the entire Aghan Jehad strategy to bleed the soviets out of Afghanistan (1979-1989). One must get to the history before start blaming ISI, let it be clear CIA is a rogue state within a state in he US, most coups in the world are planned in the CIA HQ in Langely, Virginia. While most of the focus always remains on the ISI HQ in Islamabad. The close relations between Langely and Islamabad need to be examined. Some of the frustrtations of Langely are been imposed on imposed on Islamabad and ISI is being blamed for all evil. Why?

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/79 89236.stm

Both the army and the ISI have rigorously denied the charges. And a security source told the BBC that the Americans had been given a sharp message to back off.

The Army Chief of Staff, General Ashfaq Kiyani, explained that “this kind of criticism was in no way helping us”.

At the root of this public discontent is Pakistani frustration with perceived American high-handedness.

Analysts say the army feels it’s being treated like a hired gun. Dawn Newspaper echoed that sentiment: “The Pakistani stance came as a rude shock to the Americans, who had so far been taking the civilian and military leadership for granted.”

“The bottom line,” Mr Qureshi said at the press conference, “is the question of trust… We can only work together if we respect and trust each other. There is no other way, nothing else will work.”

–In other words, Pakistan has told America in clear terms. Hey, look we ar enot your sand diggers, lets work it out together. Otherwise choice is yours, you might want to keep in mind that your choices with Pakistan are few. While Afghanistan and Iraq were not so dificult cake walks, a nuclear Pakistan will be far from picnic for American military power how powerful it may be. The language is clear, the signals are evident. BACK OFF AMERICA.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Unless, Pakistan increases the cost everything from Intelligence cooperation to logistical supplies to NATO in Afghanistan, the US will keep taking Pakistan for granting and keep crying foul.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgg0hhpcp No
Holbrooke & Mullen visit Islamabad to discuss Obama’s new strategy for combating terrorism in Pakistan.

THE REAL CAUSE OF US-PAK TENSION: US ACCUSING SOME ISI OFFICERS OF SUPPORTING TALIBAN ELEMENTS AND DEMANDING THOSE OFFICERS BE REMOVED AND CERTAIN CHANGES BE MADE IN ISI JUST LIKE IN 1993 WHEN DG ISI LT. GEN JAVED NASIR WAS REMOVED FROM HIS APPOINTMENT AT AMERICAN BEHEST.

THE PROBLEM: THE ZARDARI LED GOVT. HAVING VERY LIMITED INFLUENCE OVER ARMY AND ISI AND IS UNABLE TO FULFILL AMERICAN DEMAND. SO IS AMERICA WILLING TO TAKE ON ISI AND PAKISTAN ARMY KNOWING ITS SPD(STRATEGIC PLANS DIVISION) CONTROLS NUCLEAR WEAPONS?

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

U.S. officials meet resistance on visit to Pakistan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoigWYHp8 Yw&feature=related

“..but the Pakistani government and in particular the military intelligence establishment put up a good fight..”

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

U.S. and Pakistan in the Wake of Holbrooke’s Visit
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-27neSxy do&feature=related

After a day of talks in Islamabad, U.S. special envoy Richard Holbrooke appeared to have achieved little.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDbGn4jTT GI
Secret Government- Pakistan

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

ISI owes its rise to power to the Americans. Americans are not angels and saints, they are just reaping what they sowed.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Before anyone starts their ranting against the ISI, just take a few minutes to visit the links I have shared and study the history of the 10 year Soviet occupation of Afghanistan and the Mujahideen resistance to oust the Soivets from Afghanistan.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

A must watch for all Indians, the Youtube link above, titled Secret Government- Pakistan

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

The Doctrine Of ISI:
IF THE USA IS WILLING TO COME ALL ALONG 12000 MILES TO SAFEGUARD ITS INTERESTS, THAN IT NOT NECESSARY THAT THE RADIUS AND CIRCLE OF OUR INTERESTS IS CONFINED TO OUR OWN BORDERS. WE WILL REACH FAR AND WIDE TO SAFEGUARD PAKISTAN’s INTERESTS.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

umair
i have gone through some pakistani blogs and websites and i m speechless. pakistan is in dire straits my friend..i dont care if u dont agree.
and india or US will not be able to do anything about it..its the pakistani people who have to do something about it..i m sure india will not interfere..

but i think the next few months will be very terbulant in the history of pakistan….which may even distroy the idea of pakistan..so its upto pakistanis to clean the mess.. i don’t understand why the govt is waiting for US to intervene and help them out, they need to have their plans..

Though i understand the helplessness of pakistani people but if govt could not clear this mess and taliban takes over pakistan…., this is something which doesn’t seem as impossible as it was earlier..

Posted by Raging bull | Report as abusive

umair
i have gone through some pakistani blogs and websites and i m speechless. pakistan is in dire straits my friend..i dont care if u dont agree.
and india or US will not be able to do anything about it..its the pakistani people who have to do something about it..i m sure india will not interfere..

but i think the next few months will be very terbulant in the history of pakistan….which may even distroy the idea of pakistan..so its upto pakistanis to clean the mess.. i don’t understand why the govt is waiting for US to intervene and help them out, they need to have their plans..

Though i understand the helplessness of pakistani people but if govt could not clear this mess and taliban takes over pakistan…., this is something which doesn’t seem as impossible as it was earlier..

Posted by Raging bull | Report as abusive

Umair, it seems like this blog has hit you under the belt. You are posting more comments than Taliban killing innocents.

The Doctrine Of ISI:
IF THE USA IS WILLING TO COME ALL ALONG 12000 MILES TO SAFEGUARD ITS INTERESTS, THAN IT NOT NECESSARY THAT THE RADIUS AND CIRCLE OF OUR INTERESTS IS CONFINED TO OUR OWN BORDERS. WE WILL REACH FAR AND WIDE TO SAFEGUARD PAKISTAN’s INTERESTS.

Future of Pakistan:
After starting an unwanted fight with US, US carpet bomb the major cities of Pakistan, most of the terror cells IN PAKISTAN ARE ELIMINATED, PAKISTAN SEND SOME OF NUKES ON INDIA, BUT CHINESE THINGS DON’T WORK ALWAYS. PAKISTANIS ARE FACING HUNGER AND HUMILIATION AT SAME TIME. PAKISTANIS BECOME CANNIBALS AND STARTED EATING EACH OTHER.

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive

Umair,

You seem to be losing a lot of sleep trying to defend the basis for the ISI’s existence, it seems you must have stayed up all night madly scratching down all those postings. Please stop posting doctrines and stuff from the ISI Propaganda pamphlets and training or cadet manuals it is boring us. The fact of the matter is that you guys truly suck at intelligence. You guys keep getting caught with your pants around your ankles and deny it, even when the picture is shown publicly. If the ISI had even an ounce of brain matter, they would have maintained good and honest contacts with RAW in India. Truly smart Intelligence agencies don’t act in a total cloak and dagger fashion, dirty tactics fashion, as does the ISI.

The Americans who setup the ISI long ago are gone, they are not in the government anymore. The ISI was supposed to help fight the Communist Soviets and it did that. It was not however contemplated by anybody that Pakistan would use those same terrorist strategic assets against India. The Soviets have been gone for 20 years from Afghanistan, but Pakistan has never turned off the Mujahideen fighting machine and in turn harnessed those guys to foment trouble in Kashmir.

On the issue of 1971 Bengal, you Paki’s systematically genocided 2.5 million Hindus and 500,000 muslims. I believe this is about the 20th time I am tell you this, but you still fail to acknowledge this bloody slaughter, I don’t know why. You Paki’s created a humanitarian disaster, and India was the only regional power capable of stopping you guys. If you had not of aggressed East Pakistan, Pakistan would still be East and West. You Pakis basically self destructed and brought about your 1971 land loss due to your own selfish entitlement and desire to rein over others.

Either way, through Talibanization or the USA, the ISI is going to be dismantled eventually, regardless of your patriotic ranting.

You often compare superpowers to Pakistan. Do not even think of comparing the ISI to the CIA. The ISI is just a “kulfi” stand compared to the CIA. The CIA also has the NSA, which uses project “Echelon” to monitor every single email, fax, phone call, mobile and every possible electronic data on the entire earth, simultaneously in real time and this is done via a very sophisticated mega computer. I for one am glad that the CIA is watching over this one.

Even Sadam Hussain had an intelligence agency, so did the Soviets, it was all dismantled eventually, and so will the ISI. Pakistan does not need an intelligence agency, nor does it need such an overbloated army with such a huge financial footprint. Pakistan needs more farmers.

As I said before, get your Punjabi Fauji’s and get them farming and doing something productive. Make shovels and rakes, not more guns.

Pakistan’s opium-heroin economy reached at least half the size of its official one, and in terms of exports may have surpassed it at one point, thanks to the ISI. That same opium ends up on the streets of Europe to line the pockets of the Crooked ISI. The cost of that Opium addiction is in the Billions to the West.

It is that same ISI opium money that goes to buy and pay Islamic Radicals and Taliban.

Please Umair, go grab some of your Fauji buddies and go grab a shovel, rake and do some farming today.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

@Punjabiyaar

Lol at “PAKISTANIS BECOME CANNIBALS AND STARTED EATING EACH OTHER.”….

Punjabiyaar that would not happen..I don’t think human meat from cannibalism is Halal…hehe…but it may not necessarily be Haram, either.

;)

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

Body language tells a lot about the truth than mere words. Look at the number of posts by Umair defending the ISI. This is like the thief screaming, “I did not steal, I did not steal.”

Umair,

ISI is infested with Jihadi elements who are proving counter productive to American interests. When things go against American interests, they do not care. They just do what they think is right. Saddam Hussein realized this clearly. Pakistan is no Israel. The US will defend Israel at any cost. It will not do so in the case of Pakistan. Guess what, your country has been a sand digger all along. This is not the first time. So tell your generals to shut up and start digging. Americans realized that you guys were also digging around India unnecessarily. They have realized that so much digging has led to your foundations completely being taken away and your country is the on the verge of floor collapse.

Like it or not. The ISI is facing its moment of truth. No matter how many posts you make to defend your great ISI, it will be cut down to size. The US is going to see to that. So pick up that shovel and start digging sand.

Raging bull…
“pakistan is in dire straits my friend”

-Thank you for letting me know, sitting in the heart of Pakistan I couldn’t feel that. But thanks anyway.

“and india or US will not be able to do anything about it..”

-they dont have to, we will play it our way.

“but i think the next few months will be very terbulant in the history of pakistan”

- your’e not the first, 6 months back same people like you were predicitng Pakistan to be a failed state and collapse within six months. Now i hear NEXT six months are very cruical. Ok.
Secodly, Pakistan is not waiting for US to intervene, the US poked its nose itself in Afghanistan and got locked with a conflict with the Taliban. It was not the Taliban that smashed the planes onto the WTC than what the hell did the US came in looking for in Afghanistan? Osama Bin Laden? But then Osama was trained by the CIA to fight the Soviets. So back to square one. Today the US needs Pakistan more than Pakistan needs US and Pakistan is increasing the cost for the US.
And regarding Pakistani people being helpless, no my friend we are not helpless. We have all the resources on our disposal, our most powerful weapon is our unity and we can distinguish between our internal and external enemies and will eliminate them.

Lastly, looking at the over obsession that Indians generally have with the ISI, I have posted as many links for anyone who would like to know more about ISI.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

The blog is titled – Pakistan Now or Never -

I have gone through few blogs beside one on Pakistan, my question is to the Indians. Since this is to do with Pakistan I see so much hatred by the Indians towards the Pakistanis and seems to me indians are obsessed with Pakistan. Just because you have managed to get few call centres operating in India. It does not mean that you are a advanced nation, let me tell you there are more people who live on hunger in India than anywhere else in the World.

Beside that we have seen the treatment of minorties in India be it Muslims (Gujrat, Kashmir, Babri Mosque n so on), Christians (Buring of churcjes, forced converstion of christians), Sikhs (1984 etc) and dont forget the untouchables and countless other groups. It is all good telling the outside world we are the biggest democracy in the world but in reality, the facts on the ground tell a different story.

Pakistan has many problems but the biggest one is a true leadership like Mr Bhutto. Who can pull the country through these hard times and the ordinary pakistanis do not have any hope from Mr 110%.

Regards to my indian friends there is a lot more on reuters to post your comments on. But I guess if one is obssesed with something there is no solution.

Posted by John | Report as abusive

26/11 precipitated this. Too bad……

The worst still is some Pakistani bloggere belief that ISI is working for national interest.—Ask the Pakistanis who are suffering and are victims before punching the keyboard.

The product of CIA—playing victim? Even with this theory–If it it is so smart and powerful and the best and blah…., why it is allowing Pakistan to remain in CIA clutches?—–Dumb or impotent?

@Fact is, ISI is today what CIA made it through OPERATION CYCLONE.umair’s
———good or bad thing? seems good from below:
@ISI under its longest serving DG General Akhtar Abdul Rehman conducted the entire Aghan Jehad strategy to bleed the soviets out of Afghanistan (1979-1989).
—Giving the credit to ISI and being proud?

And then Umair says:
@One must get to the history before start blaming ISI, let it be clear CIA is a rogue state within a state in he US, most coups in the world are planned in the CIA HQ in Langely, Virginia.”
–So if CIA is rogue and is the mother of ISI, what does that make ISI?

Analysis Problem.

many experts in pakistan from Dawn who care about Pak bluntly say that there is no patriotism spirit when it comes to Jihadis, a lot for India—will be the fall of never-existing Pakistan empire.

I think Pak Army/ISI need to read Hindu scripture “Geeta” to sort their confusion over fighting with terrorists/taliban sharing Islam as religion. Seriously, and no need to convert too.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

John:
The question is
“Can Pakistan’s ISI sever ties with Taliban?”

Can it?
It is not about India. India can help Pakistan. It is not Hindu terrorism, but pure Islamic terrorism.

What are ur thoughts?

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Mauryan
“ISI is infested with Jihadi elements who are proving counter productive to American interests. When things go against American interests, they do not care. They just do what they think is right. ”

Thats what Pakistan did, clearly defined Pakistan’s interest. Let me repeat what Foreign Minister Qureshi said in the press conference in Islamabad last week with Admiral Mullen and Richard Holbrooke standing right next to him:

My people are under threat, my country is under threat, my cities are under threat, my first priority is my country’s interests.”

It is for America to decide how far they can go in recognizing Pakistan’s interests. I am sure Americans have learnt their lessons from Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan. Before they can even think of Pakistan, they are better off working it out with Pakistan rahther than against Pakistan. Lets see which way it goes.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Umair,

For the past 60 years your country’s only interest is to out do India. That is what has led to today’s situation. ISI’s main interest is not protecting Pakistan. It is more than that. It is about becoming a regional boss controlling all evil organizations and unleashing them at will at its “enemy” which is India and nothing else. This is why the Americans came around told your bosses that India is not your enemy. And they emphasized the word “anymore.” ISI, having gone insane with India hatred, is unable to come out of it. Its entire focus has been to destroy India for whatever reason and it has planned all its alliances, strategies etc with this single agenda in its mind. Your leaders have been telling world powers all along that you will dig sand for them, but they should turn a blind eye when you are also using their shovels to dig India’s grave. And they did that until now. What has happened is that some of that sand has fallen into their eyes and they are shedding tears. So they decided to do one and only one thing – dig your own grave since you are already deep into it. Get on with it. Or else the Americans will bring big earth movers to dig deeper pits.

By the way, we never want others to suffer. But if they make it their business to hurt us, then we will wish them the same. If Mumbai had not happened, you would not see such a venom from Indians here. It was staged by your ISI. That is why your government and everyone involved washed it off, disowning the most patriotic Pakistani, Ajmal Kasab. We know it comes from the ISI through its evil enterprises like LeT. At some point, the fire you light is bound to burn you. Your country was so busy inflaming it, it forgot that it was still inside the house when it tried all this. Now you are trapped inside and it will only burn you. Your country is made of millions of Ajmal Kasabs. If all your targets are blocked, you will only turn around and shoot each other. Good luck.

“The bottom line,” Mr Qureshi said at the press conference, “is the question of trust… We can only work together if we respect and trust each other. There is no other way, nothing else will work.”

-THERE IS NO OTHER WAY, NOTHING ELSE WILL WORK.
Meaning, forget about war, work with us in our way, no other way will work. Its our way or no way.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Mauryan writes:
“dig your own grave since you are already deep into it. Get on with it. Or else the Americans will bring big earth movers to dig deeper pits. ”

Hmm actually we surely are digging a grave, for India! and yes the poor Americans did threaten us to dig fast or else they would bring in big earth movers. Just then recession hit the American economy, caterpillar shut down its plant and stopped production, thousands of jobs were shed. Even the Ford and GM filed for bankruptcy. Treasury secretary has told very clearly to President Obama to hold his plans to send big earth movers to Pakistan to dig deeper pits till the next ten years. Also, big earth movers will be difficult to send in, since Mearsk Alabama was hijacked by Somali pirates in the Gulf of Aden, the US Navy cannot bear the high cost of shipping those earth movers to the port of Karachi. I mean are you suggesting guided missile destroyers escorting big earth movers all the way from America to Pakistan? in these times of deep recession? where Americans are committing suicide? Mauryan you got to be kidding!

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

John Says:

Beside that we have seen the treatment of minorties in India be it Muslims (Gujrat, Kashmir, Babri Mosque n so on), Christians (Buring of churcjes, forced converstion of christians), Sikhs (1984 etc) and dont forget the untouchables and countless other groups. It is all good telling the outside world we are the biggest democracy in the world but in reality, the facts on the ground tell a different story.

John with 1.2 Billion people living together, it is inevitable that there is going to be communal friction. Despite all that above, 99.9999% of people in India get along, buddy, deal with it. India is inclusive and secular and a functioning democracy.

Pakistan is built on an ideology of racial supremacy and hatred and rejection towards India and Hindus. Why don’t you recognize that. Because Pakistan is an Islamic Republic, that means all other religions in Pakistan are constitutionally unequal. Pakistan is racist and supremicist by its very design. During Partition, Hindus dropped from 15% to 1.2percent today through violence, intimidation, forced conversions and death. You be the judge my friend.

The top post in India held by a Sikh, the top actors in India are muslim. In India, if one has sincere desire to succeed, they may, there is no religious based racist constitutional exclusion against people based on their religion in India, as there is in Pakistan. A Dalit woman in India has reached a high post. A muslim is the premier of Kashmir India there rest is on the internet for you to read, it is too numerous.

Given the population distribution in both countries, the minorities achieving their potential is greatly unreciprocal with regards to Pakistan. Pakistan will never let minorities thrive in high enough numbers to ever voice their dissatisfaction.

Pakistan is a racist, Islamosupremicist country incapable of honesty, sincerety, delivering on its promises, showing performance of any kind and unwilling to fight the war on terrorism and radicalism.

The only thing Pakistan will respect is muscle and the overwhelming might a barrage of cruise missiles or B-1B Lancers cruising over its cities, hitting their targets, resulting from a surgical U.S. strike to decapitate the Taliban, the ISI’s own strategic proxy jihadi army assets.

What Pakistan is unwilling to do, the U.S. will do it.

No permission is needed, no heads up is needed and no apologies will be given for doing the right thing for the security of the world.

Pakistan shall comply wholeheartedly or enter the next phase of its eventual demise.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

The job of the inteligence agency is to safeguard the interest of the country. ISI which is trained by CIA but one has to admit that sometimes the student becomes superior then the master himself.

The concern that Pakistan has is simple India which is a much bigger country in size, resources etc and has already been in war with it four times in the last six decades. Why would the ISI give up the instrument of Jihadis which is one tool which keeps India in check. Beside that India has countless counslates in Afhanistan very close to the border with Pakistan I wonder why so many? But then I might have to agree with Pakistanis to fuel the insurgency in Balouchistan or to generaly destablise the country.

If you want to understand Pakistan, one needs to put himself in their position, which is they already have India on the East border why do Pkstn want them in their backyard (Afghanistan)? To encircle it, so this is the reason why Pakistan will NEVER give up contacts with these men of war.

Thats the backbone of Pakistan the exact people which were once written in the TABLOIDS of Western media under the heading “FREEDOM FIGHTERS”. (I still have few old papers just for proof), which included OBL etc. Now the same people have become the Monstor of the world…

To my Indians friends how many people have been brought to justice for Murder of over 70,000 kashmiris? or even for Gujrat? Countless rapes as well as trying to change the demography of KASHMIR. Infact the guy who masterminded the Gujrat rapes n slaughter of Muslims I think he is running for elections this year what a great democracy. I say this because I have had the privilage of going to India n Kashmir and speaking to the locals and realised how much they hate the Indian Occupying forces for the right reasons. The bottom line is if Pakistan is close to being a terrorist state India is not far behind and nor a SAINT as the few indian bloggers try to portray it….

Posted by Ismail Khan | Report as abusive

Global watcher:
” Despite all that above, 99.9999% of people in India get along, buddy, deal with it. India is inclusive and secular and a functioning democracy”

You are so stupid and just making a mockery out of yourself here. Now dont tell me it is the only 00.0001% that burnt alive Australian missionaries, killed Gandhi, assassinated Indra Gandhi and Rajeev Gandhi(by Sikh and Tamil extremists), killing of christians in Orrissa in 2008, demolition of Babri Mosque, Samjhota express bombing, Malegaon blasts, Mumbai killings, Gujarat massacres. Get your figures right, 25% of Indian population consists of low caste “Dalit” hindus living in absolute poverty and misery.
What John stated is absolutely correct, dont show off your TATA NANO and hide the communal tensions and problems that India is infested with. Muslims in India are treated as second class citizens, Indian citizens need to obtain NOC from interior ministry before they can travel abroad. Global watcher India’s true image will be pulicized more no matter how hard you try to hide the hindu fundamentalism.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Global watcher:
“What Pakistan is unwilling to do, the U.S. will do it.

No permission is needed, no heads up is needed and no apologies will be given for doing the right thing for the security of the world.

Pakistan shall comply wholeheartedly or enter the next phase of its eventual demise.”

Dont expect the US to do anything for you, US will do nothing. US is a super power with global interests to take care of from the Atlantic to Pacific to Europe and Black Sea. US has no time to take care of India’s interests. Learn to fight your own battles, learn to protect your own interests. Against Pakistan, India is alone, no one will help you guys, no one will help you against Pakistan. You have to deal with us on your own, with your own resources. Dont expect the US to back you, permission is only granted for lawful acts and apologies given in case of mistakes carrie dout. In love and war everything is legitimate, fight us if you can. Stand on your own feet, stop looking upon the US. You are what YOU are, just because the US gave India civil nuclear deal, the US will also attack Pakistan because it will appease Indians. Global watcher your logic is absurd and absolute nonsense. Go F*** yourself.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Pakistan’s ISI – IS- the Taliban.

“When they look to the west they envison an “islamisation” of Afghanistan and other Central Asian countries with which to face off against Hindu-dominated India to the east,” Kaplan writes.

—With what does this ‘Kaplan writes’??? be rest assured it’s isn’t written with the conventional writing tools nor is there any sign of him having used his stuff btw his ears. (a hint : search below the waist btw legs). Worst still! It’s given to understand that ‘many people who make and enact policy believe that Kaplan knows what he’s talking about(pity them).’ Phew, this guy’s suggesting that the Americans should appease & cajole the ISI because they’ve ‘angered’ them by (for speaking the truth) clubbing them with the Taliban & let them materialize their ‘vision’ of “Talibanization” of Afghanistan —and—and “other central Asian countries’, for what??? To challenge “Hindu-dominated India”, Duh, (did it not even for a moment occur to this dumb-ass that what does he expects the Russians will sit back & do? Play flute?.)

Posted by anup | Report as abusive

Mauryan writes:
“dig your own grave since you are already deep into it. Get on with it. Or else the Americans will bring big earth movers to dig deeper pits. ”

Hmm actually we surely are digging a grave, for India! and yes the poor Americans did threaten us to dig fast or else they would bring in big earth movers. Just then recession hit the American economy, caterpillar shut down its plant and stopped production, thousands of jobs were shed. Even the Ford and GM filed for bankruptcy. Treasury secretary has told very clearly to President Obama to hold his plans to send big earth movers to Pakistan to dig deeper pits till the next ten years. Also, big earth movers will be difficult to send in, since Mearsk Alabama was hijacked by Somali pirates in the Gulf of Aden, the US Navy cannot bear the high cost of shipping those earth movers to the port of Karachi. I mean are you suggesting guided missile destroyers escorting big earth movers all the way from America to Pakistan? in these times of deep recession? where Americans are committing suicide? Mauryan you got to be kidding!

while Mauryan enjoys taunting me, I enjoy replying to his taunts. Big earth movers, MY FOOT! Recession hit America and Caterpillar shutting down, auto sector and banking going down and NASDAQ crashing, wall street in tatters and America sending big earth movers. Can someone preach sense to mauryan?

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

@Though i understand the helplessness of pakistani people but if govt could not clear this mess and taliban takes over pakistan…., this is something which doesn’t seem as impossible as it was earlier..
- Posted by Raging bull

–Even if Taliban takesover it will still be seen as of it is in interest of the nation if you consider this:
There are so-called good and bad Taliban, whosoever coined these terms. Then ONCE UPON A TIME, Taliban offered Pakistan to fight against India and then some Pakistanis want such terrorist elements to formally wear Pakistani Army uniforms, Taliban had a resume that shows its ability to (mis)govern a country (Afghanistn). I am sure (good) Taliban will soon be given formal place as a political party. So Taliban rule will still be considered Pakistani rule. To top it all, Behtula Mehsud and Mullah Fazlullah will be given Nishan-i-Haider.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Muslims ruled India for 1000 years, so had plenty of time to convert every living thing in india.

But today 2009 even you are a living prove that they did not my friend. As your country has its problems so does your neighours maybe bit more but again my question is still ot answered why are indian obssesed with Pakistan??

Your views will remain as views NOT facts unless you cross the border and see Pakistan with your own eyes. I have had the privelage of seeing both countries and their history. Let me also reminf yu that Pakistan army is the biggest contrvuter to UN force for peace keeping purpose unlike the Indians who also have send army of rapest into DR of Congo or have we already forgot….

Posted by John | Report as abusive

Mauryan taunts Umair

“US will send in B52s.
US will send in drones.
US will send in Earth movers.
US will do this and that, be scared of the US.”

Oouuuuuwe, I am scared. eeeeeeh

Hell with it. Is there anything India can also send?
hahahhahaahh lol..lol..lol.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

John writes:
“Let me also reminf yu that Pakistan army is the biggest contrvuter to UN force for peace keeping purpose unlike the Indians who also have send army of rapest into DR of Congo or have we already forgot….”

Yes sure, I agree with you. Pakistan Army is the highest contributor to peacekeeping missions in the world as of today and has a history of professionalism and spirit to volunteer. While the Indians and Dutch have a dismal record. The Dutch Amry that was guarding UN safe houses during Bisnian war pulled out and surrendered to the Serbs and it is on the record that war criminals who are in Hague now, like Radovan Karadzic and Ratko Mladic perpetrated genocide of muslims. Where as Pakistan Army soldiers in Tuzl and Mostar who arrived later where ever they went volunteered with their own resources to protect and feed the local population, be it Haiti or Bosnia, carrying out dangerous operations and rescue/evacuation missions in Somalia and peace keeping in Africa. Pakistan Army has earned its respect globally.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

John writes:
“but again my question is still ot answered why are indian obssesed with Pakistan??”

I am with John here, My question also to all Indians is the same; why are Indians so obsessed with Pakistan? This blog is about Pakistan and most of the time Indians are reading and commenting. Why this much obsession? can anyone answer? Anup, Global watcher, Rajeev, Nikhil, Anitha, Raging bull, Mauryan, anyone?

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

America can push any button it likes but the bottom line as said by the foreign ministerin a joint news conference “if there is NO trust nothing can be achieved”.

Which I have to totaly agree you can not go into someone house and just demand everything it aint going to work. You have to safeguard their intrests and good start would be to bring india to the table to sort the mess out in Kashmir. Implement the UN resoulution passed for Kashmir that would show the world India is sincere. Infact everytime there is little blast in India without a seconds hesitaion all the blame is on the Pakistanis even though the culprits are general within the indian army.

How cool is that you either need a good properganda machine or stupid populatio and it seems India has both. How lucky are you???

Posted by JOHN | Report as abusive

Maybe they are on Indian Government pay roll lol its a possibilty. The fact is none of these bloggers even post anything on the other bloggs beside Paksitan.

Posted by John | Report as abusive

Maybe they are members of the Hindu Terrorist outfit dedicated to see a greater India just for Hindus.

Ethnicaly cleansing Muslims, Christians does not promote the banner of greatest democracy in the world.

Irrelavent of what extrvagent words these indians with their oxford dictionaries opened front of erm find. The fact is simple Kashmir for kashmiris, PAK for pakis , Afghan for Afghnis. So who rateled Indian cage??? Monkey business I see………….

Posted by John | Report as abusive

I remember reading that even the British had some contact with the Talibans and were trying to come to a settlement or trying to at least marginlise the hardcore from moderates. But I did not see any critcism of that but Pakistanis do the same thing they are branded as doing something out of this planet. My friends we are only there for few years but Pakistan is there for ever and they will have to pick the pieces up.

Personaly I blame West for leaving the poor country on its own after they helped with their blood to defeat the USSR which was n is offcourse India best pal…

Now its come back to haunt them, as they say what goes around comes around. The best thing west can do is to help true democracy not a puppet regime in pakistan and work with them, through ecnomic, military aid and training in advanced warfare n anti terrorism raids.

But when you have yanks sitting in USA firing hell misiles at anytthing that moves be it wedding aprty. That is what is not helpfull and the genral public wihtin pakistan see it as a war imposed on them rather than there war which it is NOW.

Posted by John | Report as abusive

I guess the call center has closed now lol because I dont see any of our indian friends replying with a logical explaination.

Possible maybe their is a power shortage? lol

Posted by John | Report as abusive

John writes:
“but again my question is still not answered why are indian obssesed with Pakistan??”

Obsessed ?

We are only obsessed with India, if Pakistan is not attacking our establishments and doing attacks like Mumbai, We Indians will not even bother to spit towards Pakistan.

We are only concerned about pakistan because of the very same reasons USA is concerned about Al Quaida.

This is simple thing to understand, this is not rocket science

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive

John, actually Indians so far were only doing Paki bashing and repeating old arguments on this blog. They dont even know where is the CIA Hedquarter in the US. They are just new to this game, while Pakistan was involved since 1979. While all the Indian friends learn a thing or two, they will surely come up with some sensible explanations soon.

Now guys, dont let me down please.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

No, it can’t and it will not.

ISI created the Taleban as a phenomenon. ISI created al-Qaeda, which should be more worrisome for the world.

When you ask “can ISI svere ties with the Taliban”, it is the same thing as asking can ISI sever ties with Pakistan.

Get the formula right: Taleban + al-Qaeda = ISI
ISI + Taleban + al-Qaeda = Pakistan

If you succeed in destroying one of them, it would mean you have destroyed all of them, because they can’t be separated from each other. There is a mutual interdependency between the three.

Dismantling the destabilizing, terror sponsoring and colonial entity called Pakistan is the only way to get rid of Islamic extremism and terrorism.

So don’t forget al-Qaeda Mr. Sanjeev. That is also created by ISI.

Posted by kabura | Report as abusive

Punjabi yar writes:
“We are only obsessed with India, if Pakistan is not attacking our establishments and doing attacks like Mumbai, We Indians will not even bother to spit towards Pakistan.”

Finally one Indian tries to answer the question put forward to Indians. Atleast Punjbaiyar I appreciate your effort to try and answer. And I guess the recent shoe attack on Chidambaram, Indian home minister was also planned and ordered by ISI, the journalist also undertook shoe throwing training in an ISi sponsored shoe throwing training camp in Kashmir. Nice little explanation huh?

I hope ISI didnt sabotage the recent open heart sugery carried out on Manmohan Singh. Such is the pathetic level of your obsession with Pakistan.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Umair the Braveheart!

“While Afghanistan and Iraq were not so dificult cake walks, a —“nuclear Pakistan”– will be far from picnic for American military power how powerful it may be. The language is clear, the signals are evident. BACK OFF AMERICA.”

—Bravo! That’s the spirit! Keep it up! C’mon Pakistan – Show these Americans what you’ll are capable of!

WOW man you’ve threatened them also with your ‘Nukes’ – I must say you’ll are a Gutsy lot. Now walk the talk & flush them out of Afghanistan.

Posted by anup | Report as abusive

@Muslims ruled India for 1000 years, so had plenty of time to convert every living thing in india.
-by John

–Then have symapthy for ur ancestors who converted to Islam and u r the product. What’s with the name John–job requirement?–that’s alright- but use ur grey matter if u have any left over the conversion issue.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

@Your views will remain as views NOT facts unless you cross the border and see Pakistan with your own eyes. I have had the privelage of seeing both countries and their history.”
- Posted by John

–Living in oldtimes. These days advanced countries have space programms to have a look at other countries without crossing borders. That was the era of bow and arrows.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

punjabiyaar / Global Watcher / Rajeev /
@John the Pakist
“It is all good telling the outside world we are the biggest democracy in the world but in reality, (blah blah)
“Pakistan has many problems but the biggest one is a true leadership like Mr Bhutto” (cough cough)
“Muslims ruled India for 1000 years,”(boo)
“Your views will remain as views NOT facts unless you cross the border and see Pakistan with your own eyes.” (yawn)
“Pakistan army is the biggest contrvuter to UN force for peace keeping purpose” (purrrr)
“the treatment of minorties in India be it Muslims (Gujrat, Kashmir, Babri Mosque n so on), Christians (Buring of churcjes, forced converstion of christians), Sikhs (1984 etc) and dont forget the untouchables and countless other groups.” ( bark)

—GUYS, don’t you see – he’s Umairs boss from the ISI anti-India propaganda cell!

Posted by anup | Report as abusive

@Now dont tell me it is the only 00.0001% that burnt alive Australian missionaries, killed Gandhi, assassinated Indra Gandhi and Rajeev Gandhi(by Sikh and Tamil extremists), killing of ………”
-posted by Umair

Umair, do the maths of 00.0001% of 1billion and u will find that Global Watcher is right. He underestimated.
Look at this Indian Muslim Video who also said nearly the samething and asked Musharraf to back off from India.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZO1sUdAdl NI

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

John writes:
“Let me also reminf yu that Pakistan army is the biggest contrvuter to UN force for peace keeping purpose unlike the Indians who also have send army of rapest into DR of Congo or have we already forgot….”

—Let me also remind you that Pakistan army is the biggest killer of Pakistani Muslims.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Anup wrote:
“—Bravo! That’s the spirit! Keep it up! C’mon Pakistan – Show these Americans what you’ll are capable of!

WOW man you’ve threatened them also with your ‘Nukes’ – I must say you’ll are a Gutsy lot. Now walk the talk & flush them out of Afghanistan.”

Infact we have been dealing with Americans since 1950s we know their capabilities, they know our capabilities. They came in Afghanistan on their own will, they will decide if they want to exit alive or die and humiliate like the Soviets. Americans are not idiots, they know what to do. Also, Americans are wise enough and know more about Pakistan than Indians do. Its the garbage that needs to be flushed out of Afghanistan and that garbage is India.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Anup rants:
“—GUYS, don’t you see – he’s Umairs boss from the ISI anti-India propaganda cell!”

-Classic example of Indian obsession with Pakistan, Anup is also not answering the question and again sounding his obsession with Pakistan.

Even if you go to the blog title: India, A Billion Aspirations you will never find these same Indians commenting and reading it. All these guys do is read the Pakistan blog titled: Pakistan; Now or Never.

You sick people are so obsessed with ISI, its absolutely unthinkable and unbelieveable.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Umair wrote:
“I guess the recent shoe attack on Chidambaram, Indian home minister was also planned and ordered by ISI, the journalist also undertook shoe throwing training in an ISi sponsored shoe throwing training camp in Kashmir. Nice little explanation huh?”

Are you trying to demonstrate your ability as an Idiot ?

Get some sleep man, this blog is getting on your nerves

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive

Kabura the Afghan writes:
“Dismantling the destabilizing, terror sponsoring and colonial entity called Pakistan is the only way to get rid of Islamic extremism and terrorism.”

-Yes I understand why you feel that way, you like your Indian masters go settle in India as a second class citizen. We will never let the Indians set their feet in Afghanistan, they want to have Kashmir and than get a stronghold on Afghanistan and to encircle Pakistan. And then it is expected from ISI to dance with the Indians? what kind of logic is this?

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

johnny mera naam

whats your country of birth and country of current residence

you already lied about your religion, why are you ashamed or what.

come on go ahead and tell the truth

Im sure like other pakis in US who are not forthcoming with their nation of origin, you will tell more lies.

John Write:
“I guess the call center has closed now lol because I dont see any of our indian friends replying with a logical explaination.”

Now you are getting obsessed with India, It seems like you lost your job due to Indian Call center. Poor John

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive

Punjabiyaar writes:
“Are you trying to demonstrate your ability as an Idiot ?

Get some sleep man, this blog is getting on your nerves”

Still obsessed, its you who need to give it a rest. this is a Pakistani blog and you have been around since when? what have you contributed? Just Pakis bashing? And thak you for showing concern, I have been having some good sleep lately and I have the nerve state what I feel like stating.
By the way please let everyone know the identity of the terrorist that threw the shoe on Chidambaram. After Bush he is the second guy to have faced shoe terrorism, India is a victim of shoe terrorism. Now you guys must close down all shoe factories in India and arrest all cobblers and shoe makers, a countrywide crackdown is necessary to tackle shoe terrorism.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

John Writes:
“Your views will remain as views NOT facts unless you cross the border and see Pakistan with your own eyes. I have had the privelage of seeing both countries and their history”

That was history now,

Today if you cross the Paki immigration counter at Islamabad airport, You will be BEHEADED just for being JOHN.

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive

Umair, TALK TO THE HAND

You are not making any sense

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive

Umair Wrote:
“cobblers and shoe makers, a countrywide crackdown”

Haha you are out of your mind

Are you a Marasi ?

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive

AzadDp asks:
“whats your country of birth and country of current residence”

AzadDp are you in the Department of Homeland Security, Government of USA? No. Dont ask too many questions just mind you business.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Punjabiyar lies:
“Today if you cross the Paki immigration counter at Islamabad airport, You will be BEHEADED just for being JOHN.”

Obsession, obsession and more obsession.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Umair the ISI admirer writes: “We will never let the Indians set their feet in Afghanistan”.

Who do you think you are Umair? Afghans decide whom they let in to or out of their country. Don’t you know the Afghans? They are known for protecting their guests, even if it happens to be an Hindu.

If you are smart enough, you should read a little about Afghan-Indian relations, which go back at least a few thousands years, long before the evil child (Pakistan) was to be born from a sick British mother. Therefore it can’t be called “PAKistan” but Dirtistan, and cleansed once and for all.

Posted by kabura | Report as abusive

Kabura
I know you northern alliance sl*ts are always sleeping around with India. And remember we Pakistanis dont have anything against Afghanistan or Afghanis. We gave shelter for Afghan refugees, the Soviets occupied Afghansitan. Ask your own people, did they ever liked Soviet occupation? NO. Never, the Mujahideen took up arms against Soviets. Make sure you dont let any one in who wants to use your house to set fire in Pakistan’s backyard. Otherwise we will kick them out of Afghanistan.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Umair says:

“Dont expect the US to do anything for you, US will do nothing. US is a super power with global interests to take care of from the Atlantic to Pacific to Europe and Black Sea. US has no time to take care of India’s interests. Learn to fight your own battles, learn to protect your own interests.”

Umair, India does not need the U.S. for anything. The U.S. has an old score to settle with Pakistan. Remember 911?

I am sure the samosa and kebabs were running around your house as you, your friends and colleagues celebrated the slaughter by innocent Americans who had no political affiliations but waking around in business suits, doing their work were murdered.

The Pakistani establishment was complicit and impotent to thwart, stop or help in any way to prevent 911. India has no fight with Pakistan.

The problem is that Pakistan seems to keep convincing itself that it has a fight with India. The real fight in Pakistan is the delicate balance of the civilian society, the madrass culture and the Gated Communities of the wafer thin Elite in Pakistan, of which you are. That is the war, you three are not one in voice and are fighting and butchering and lying to each other, like a pile of rabid dogs crawling over each other to get the bone,.. the bone of control in Pakistan.

The only thing that unites all of you is a common hatred of India and Hindus. Admit it, bang your head into the wall and just admit it…you have a pathological obsession for hating and destroying India and supporting Radical Islamic Terrorism.

India does not have to fight Pakistan. Pakistan is self destructing.

Pakistan is like a defiant criminal cancer patient on the prison hospital bed, unrepentant, unwilling to realize its mistakes, unwilling to reconcile and make amends and unwilling to change its ways for the better, while it continues to hurl vomit and other body fluids at prison guards, doctors and nurses and plots its next move on its victims to kill them or steal from them.

If the ISI is such a professional organization, why can’t it stop the Taliban? Why can’t the army crush Radical Islam? Why can’t you so-called professionals do so much as protect a bus of cricket players, for whom protection was promised by the head of state? You Fauji people are utterly incompetant and incapable of much.

Again, I salute the fallen Pakistani Fauji’s who have given their lives to protect Pakistan, albeit possibly in vain, since the ISI and Pak Military are not willing to conform or comply to the will of the U.S.

No one is coming to Pakistan’s rescue as it slides into the hole which it has dug for itself. You wanted oil, the Saudi’s sent you dates to eat, how laughable. China didn’t even bother sending any money or even a rice bowl. Ask India, mother India will give you all kinds of relief and friendship, if you ask politely, but you must demonstrate good and honest behavior to get this kind of help.

Despite our starving people we still offered help to you Paki’s during the earthquake. You need not give us too much credit, we dont hate you and are more focussed on developing our country, while you are focussed on destablizing us.

Thanks for the attacks on India, they only serve to strengthen and unite us further. Never underestimate the will of 1.2 Billion humans. We Indians are humble and never admit perfection of any kind, but humbly thank God for whatever he gives us everyday. We don’t have religious entitlement over anybody or any human on earth.

Collectively, almost anything is achievable by India.

The U.S. will dictate and Pakistan will comply. Barack Obama promised the U.S. Citizens that he WILL invade Pakistan, if Pakistan is unwilling to provide a fight against Radical Islamicists.

Let’s just see how well your F-16′s perform against the U.S., when they hit the OFF switch on you by remote and leave you impotent.

This fight is between Pakistan and the U.S., if it happens. India is hands free and minding its own business. India will sit on the sidelines, not interfere and will be of assistance to fight terrorism and state sponsored terrorism, if the world asks it.

India will continue to help build Afghanistan. You Pak’s have not done anything for Afghanistan, but played dirty politics and destabilized them and yourself for selfish motives of the Military Elite living in the gated communities of Pakistan.

Again, thanks for Mumbai and Ajmal Kasab, you have made India stronger and more united each time you do a terrorist attack on us.

There will come a point, when Pakistan will get to reap the rewards of doing terrorism and sponsoring it on others. The U.S. has come to give Pakistan its due reward, as well a new President who has something to prove.

What Qureshi said is irrelevant, as it appears that Pakistani establishment does not to be held accountable, does not want any transparency, does not want to act honestly, does not want any performance measures, in short Pakistan does not want hear the failing marks on its report card and at the same time does not want to remediate its behavior.

There is nothing for the U.S. to work out with Pakistan. Recession or not, the World Banks are more than willing to fund money to fight Radical Islam, deal with that.

Enjoy the Gated community life with your computer, internet, music and movies, while you have it, you might shortly have to return to village life and wear a beard and salwar kameez and bow to your Taliban masters, once the civil wars and Radical Islam start disassembling Pakistan in mass.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

Umair, right now its 1:01am Tuesday (PKT) – Time in Islamabad, Pakistan, don’t get obsessed with India.

Get some sleep, otherwise you will get symptoms of Rabies, and may bite your family members, Who are perfectly unknown to this blog.

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive

John, good work but I finalized ur crude draft and make sure following is final:
@America can push any button it likes but the bottom line as said by the foreign ministerin a joint news conference “if there is NO trust nothing can be achieved”. PAKISTAN HAS LOST INTEREST AND NOTHING CAN BE CHANGED.
SOME PEOPLE SAY AND I TOATALLY DISAGREE SINCE IT IS A JIHADI BRAINWASH/VICTIM MENTALITY THEORY THAT “you can not go into someone house and just demand everything it aint going to work.” FACT IS WHEN PAKISTAN MAKES CHOICES IT MUST SAFEGUARD IT’S SHORT-TERM AND LONG INTERESTS. I SUGGEST ISI BE SCRAPPED SINCE IT HAS FAILED TO SAFEGUARD NATIONAL INTERESTS. KASHMIR IS A NON-ISSUE AND WE AE HURTING KASHMIRIS JUST LIKE WE ARE HURTING BALOCHIS. WE OFFER TO GIVE AZAD KASHMIR TO INDIA SO THAT OUR KASHMIRIS BROTHERS BE REUNITED AND LIVE IN PEACE FOREVER. WE SHOULD ASK UN to MEDIATE TO GET BACK SAKSHAM VALLEY FROM KAFIR CHINA WHICH WE OUT OF HABIT GIFTED TO THEM; VALLEY WILL ALSO BE PART OF THE KASHMIR WHERE OUR BROS LIVE WITH OUR PEACEFUL NEIGHBOR INDIA. WE WILL ASK KASHMIRIS TO FORGIVE US FOR THAT SINCE THEY ARE OUR BROS. FOR OUR OWN PEOPLE IN PAK WHO ARE SUFFERING FROM OUR PRO-TERRORISM POLICIES, WE MUST CUT OUR TIES WITH TERRORISTS OF ALL KINDS AND DO NOT GIVE ANYONE SHELTER. GOD WILLING, DOING THAT IS A PEACE OF CAKE FOR PAK AND ALSO MAKE SURE THAT NOT A SINGLE TERRORIST CROSSES OVER INTO INDIA. WE HAVE DONE ENOUGH HARM TO INDIA BUT IN FACT PAKISTAN GOT 2 BLOWS FOR 1 BLOW TO INDIA WE GIVE. IT IS TIME TO CHANGE FOR OUR OWN SAKE.

IT IS TIME TO FORGET UN RESOLUTION SINCE IT IS IRRELEVANT. WE WILL CUT DOWN ALL PROPAGANDA MACHINERY AGANIST INDIA THAT IS CREATED TO MISLEAD OUR CITIZENS. WE MUST THEIR FORGIVENESS. ALL CONSPIRACY MAKERS MUST BE BEHIND BARS. IT IS TIME TO TELL PAKISTANIS THAT WE HAVE ATTACEKD INDIA AND LOST EACH TIME. WE WAGED THE PROXY WARS AND THAT WAS EVEN WORSE THAN WARS. OVERT WARS MADE 2 PIECES OUT OF PAKISTAN. BUT COVERT WARS WILL MAKE AT LEAST 4 PIECES IF WE CONTINUE ON THE PATH. PAKISTANI ARMY/ISI WILL NOT BE GIVEN FREE HAND AND UNDER THE TIGHT CONTROL OF CICIL GOVT TO WHICH FOREIGN GOVTS CAN HAVE DIPLOMACY WITH.

WE CANNOT UNDO THE 1947 INDIA-PAK PARTITION BUT LET US CO-EXIST AS NEIGHBOURS AND THE ONUS IS ON US.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Umair,

Your Madrassa teacher would be very upset with you spend more time typing than praying.

Get a grip buddy, you are going to go insane. Save yourself. Ge with reality. You are the only Pakistani in the blog about Pakistan.

You have nothing new to offer anybody here.

Go lie down and get some sleep, you will look tired tomorrow.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

@John writes:
“but again my question is still ot answered why are indian obssesed with Pakistan??”
I am with John here, …..Anup, Global watcher, Rajeev, Nikhil, Anitha, Raging bull, Mauryan, anyone?
- Posted by Umair

John/Umair:

Take a walk to a good bookstore or spend some quality time on internet and u will be worried like the rest of thw world. u will also be obsessed with some Pakistani columnists in Dawn who know the deal and think there is more to than beautiful Graden in Islamabad. They see soon a Taliban standing there and u see the flowers. Taliban 60Km away right?? Take a nap under the trees since soon you will be woken up rudely by a the butt of a gun and make a strategic exit out of the garden.

The whole world is obsessed and that obsession is out of worry. the world inclding India is wondering why u r so obsessed with terrorists and find something good out of Taliban and everything bad in India…….???

Howsoever interesting the movie is it will end. make sure it is not tragic for Pakistan…

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

@Umair the faint-heart – now writes-

“Americans are wise”
“we have been dealing with Americans since 1950s we know their capabilities, they know our inabilities.”

—Huh??? What happened to all that you previously posted? got scared? Here I remind you what you posted:

“SO IS AMERICA WILLING TO TAKE ON ISI AND PAKISTAN ARMY KNOWING ITS SPD(STRATEGIC PLANS DIVISION) CONTROLS NUCLEAR WEAPONS?”
“Pakistan has told America in clear terms. Hey, look we ar enot your sand diggers,”
“IT NOT NECESSARY THAT THE RADIUS AND CIRCLE OF OUR INTERESTS IS CONFINED TO OUR OWN BORDERS. WE WILL REACH FAR AND WIDE TO ‘REPEAT A 9/11’.”
“The language is clear, the signals are evident. BACK OFF AMERICA.”

Posted by anup | Report as abusive

John’s contribution towards Pakistan state:

John writes and I know Umair agrees to that:
“Let me also reminf yu that Pakistan army is the biggest contrvuter to UN force for peace keeping purpose unlike the Indians who also have send army of rapest into DR of Congo or have we already forgot…..”

I agree u are expert at peace-making—like with Taliban and all Jihadis.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Taliban in Buner 60 miles from the capital, Islamabad.(Umair’s jannat (soon to be jahanam, Talibanized. lol)
“Buner residents formed a militia, or “lashkar”, to resist the militants and 13 people were killed in clashes.”

Pakistani government officials have told police to allow Taliban militants a free hand.

“We have been instructed by the government to stay away from Taliban as they are our guests.”, said, a police officer in Pir Baba police station in Buner district.

Posted by anup | Report as abusive

Initially I started to add some comments to these blogs and started to read some with great interest, but now I am convinced that these blogs are more about bashing each others than engaging in any constructive or positive debate.

No doubt debate means argue for your opinion with some facts, but it seems like some people on these blogs are determine to negate others without any civilized debate. Therefore, I think if any one who does not want to face bad smell of this dirty pile, it is better not to touch this dirt!

Thanks Mauryan, Umair and Rajeev for some constructive and engaging debate; please stay positive and open minded.

Posted by Abid | Report as abusive

Umair

The first terrorists infiltrated into Afghanistan by the ISI and the Terror Army of Pakistan in the early 70s were not the Taleban, but Golbuddin Hekmatyar and Ahmad Shah Masud, who was the leader of the Northern Alliance.

You see, all the terrorists, fundamentalists and religious extremists in Afghanistan have been created in Pakistan.

Masud and Hekmatyar, the chosen children of Nasirullah Babur, the former ISI boss, also implemented what they were thought by their “Muslim brothers” in Pakistan: To destroy Afghanistan. Masud and Hekmatyar destroyed Kabul (1992-1996) at the same time as Hamid Gul, another boss of ISI, was the highest military adviser of Burhanudin Rabani, the Tajik president of Northern Alliance.

So don’t call me a Northern Alliance supporter. Any Afghan sleeping in the ISI beds will be cleansed from the soil of Afghanistan, be that Northern Alliance, Hezbe Islami, Sayaf, Khales, Mollah Omar….
In the eyes of the Afghans, there is no difference between Amin, Taraki, Karmal and Najib on the one hand and the Islamist-terrorists of Afghanistan mentioned above.
Rest assured that Afghans will cleanse their country from these parasites.

Posted by kabura | Report as abusive

Anup Dog writes:

“Taliban in Buner 60 miles from the capital, Islamabad.(Umair’s jannat (soon to be jahanam, Talibanized. lol)
“Buner residents formed a militia, or “lashkar”, to resist the militants and 13 people were killed in clashes.”

Pakistani government officials have told police to allow Taliban militants a free hand.”

“We have been instructed by the government to stay away from Taliban as they are our guests.”, said, a police officer in Pir Baba police station in Buner district.
———————————————————
Anup, it appears that the Government of Pakistan, the military and ISI has itself given up the fight against the Taliban and chosen to work against America.

I think this is what Qureshi meant, when he said Pakistan will do things on its own terms.

Who do the Pakistani establishment think they are? Do they really think the U.S. is going to let them off the hook that easily after burning 12 Billion dollars of cash and nothing to show for it? except a few hundred dead Taliban?

Pakistani establishment is dead wrong and will face more and more pressure to comply. This will reach a tipping point and sooner than you think. Even the U.S. military war planners have already blamed the ISI and the Pak Military for convenient intelligence lapses and the many other nefarious ISI activities like the Indian Consulate Bombing in Kabul.

Everything seems to point at the U.S. military prepared to blame Pakistan for not complying and dragging its feet. When Pakistan foots the blame for the failure, Pakistan can expect heavy and massive ordinance retaliation and will be impotent to respond to American.

Truth is Pakistani “Sovereignty is a myth”, the traitorous ISI and Pak Military, sold this Sovereignty to the Taliban and Radical Islamacists.

Radical Islamacists are now on the verge of controlling the Streets of Pakistan, shortly.

Therefore when guy like Qureshi rant about Pakistani sovereignty, there is a thinly veiled implication that the Taliban are their friendly guests and the U.S. is not. Therefore it is open now that Pakistani establishment does not view the Taliban and Radical Islamacists as a threat to their sovereignty.

How laughable. Let the Drones do their job.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

Some of you guys keep qouting Sikh a PM, Muslim a President and top nuclear scientist, score of muslims as top actors, poets etc. Are you trying to tell the world that these small minorities are much smarter and talented than Billion hindu? probably that is why India was always ruled by invaders.

Posted by Abid | Report as abusive

@“Pakistan has many problems but the biggest one is a true leadership like Mr Bhutto”
John

Pakistanis:
Zia-ul-Haq hanged “your true leader” Bhutto, gave you Pakistan fundmentalism, made Pakistan Us’ puppet, then why are you so proud of Zia-ul-Haq? I know he gave you so appealing bleed India 1000-cut hypothesis which is sitting in the trash and is bleeding Pakistan by 10,000-cuts.

Which one is better Bhutto or Zia?

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Abid says:

“Some of you guys keep qouting Sikh a PM, Muslim a President and top nuclear scientist, score of muslims as top actors, poets etc. Are you trying to tell the world that these small minorities are much smarter and talented than Billion hindu? probably that is why India was always ruled by invaders.”

You fool, are you saying that if Hindus were so superior that they wouldn’t let anybody but Hindus succeed? You have not got a clue about what Democracy and inclusivity and secularity and constitutional equality means.

Just go away Abid. There is no keeping muslims in Pakistan happy with regards to India, you guys are unpleasable at any level and will always find fault with India to complain. In India, we don’t keep minorties down so Hindus only can succeed, like they do in Pakistan. You guys killed off all your minorties and that is why you are 99% muslim.

I can’t believe you just made such a stupid absurd backwards comment.

You backward 8th century fool.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

AzadDp asks:
“whats your country of birth and country of current residence”

AzadDp are you in the Department of Homeland Security, Government of USA? No. Dont ask too many questions just mind you business.

- Posted by Umair

homeland security can find out the precise location of computer the post has originated from. Its you and me who go by what is said here; by the way, why jhonny boy is so quiet- is he so very shy now.I mean lookslike he wants to hide his nation of origin at any cost.

@Some of you guys keep qouting Sikh a PM, Muslim a President and top nuclear scientist, score of muslims as top actors, poets etc. Are you trying to tell the world that these small minorities are much smarter and talented than Billion hindu? probably that is why India was always ruled by invaders.
- Posted by Abid

Abid, you are doing a good mental masturb$$ation.

Now to answer to ur question, that means anyone who is smart can rise to any position and is not restricted. Blasmphemy and disparity is not the laws in India.

So “Can Pakistan’s ISI sever ties with Taliban?”

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

–Umair bashes US:
“Infact we have been dealing with Americans since 1950s we know their capabilities, they know our capabilities. They came in Afghanistan on their own will, they will decide if they want to exit alive or die and humiliate like the Soviets.”

Umair’s balancing act after a lot of US bashing:
“Americans are not idiots, they know what to do. Also, Americans are wise enough and know more about Pakistan than Indians do. Its the garbage that needs to be flushed out of Afghanistan and that garbage is India.”

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

It is interesting to see the responses to this particular blog – Crossed 75 within a matter of 24 hours. Some raw nerve has been touched! The way Umair responded with 15 sequential replies tells me that some serious nerve has been touched. And Indians responded to it, feeding his frenzy further.

Umair, Abid, John and other like minded Pakistanis,

Truth hurts. The truth is that your ISI, in addition to protecting your national interests (whatever that is), got carried away with building an empire on its own. So long as it did not cross the path of the Americans, it was allowed to run its nefarious schemes inside Afghanistan, Central Asia and India. Like it or not – ISI is viewed as a ROGUE organization by non-Pakistani countries. The Americans knew this all along and did not care so long as their objectives were on track. Unfortunately, after clearing all obstacles on their path, they are finding that they are still not making any headway. Guess what they said? ISI is the biggest obstacle. Not even the Taliban which was breast fed by the ISI and bred. Americans are willing to work even with the Taliban. It is not so much of a barrier as the ISI. They know that CIA trained the ISI in the past. But now they admit that it was mistake. So they have come to your doorstep to tell you that stone age days are in the horizon. Dismantle the Jihadi elements inside ISI and convert it into a puppy. Otherwise there are going to be some serious issues for Pakistan. That is why your Qureshi looked like a bu*t f*cked man during the press conference. He got it from both Holbrooke and Mike Mullen. Mike is a military guy and he can be hard. So Qureshi was hurting. That is how Pakistan will feel too when the Americans give it from the rear. Enjoy it.

India has nothing to do with any of what is going on inside Afghanistan or Pakistan. We have to pay attention to Pakistan because your country keeps dragging us. We are a civilized country and we do not believe in going to war for every little headache. Your countrymen’s mentality has turned militant and it is obvious from your responses which mention about the nukes in every alternate sentence. I don’t blame you. All these years there was no time for your country to develop anything civil. All you have bred are Ajmal Kasabs and the Taliban. Either bow to them or to the Americans. One of them is going to get you. India will do nothing. It is good enough watching the self-destruction from outside.

Go to sleep. The Americans are coming and the Taliban are also coming. Choose who you will go to bed with. May be the Afghans will also come in and give you something in the rear. You will know how your ancestors felt before they converted to your religion.

@—GUYS, don’t you see – he’s (John from Pakistan) Umairs boss from the ISI anti-India propaganda cell!
- Posted by anup

—Anup: Yes, he appears so but from name he appears to be a Christian minority. Are minorities allowed to serve in ISI?

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Umair says:
@By the way please let everyone know the identity of the terrorist that threw the shoe on Chidambaram.”

–did you not read he is a reporter. He would have declared so in Pakistan and his decomosed body found somewhere.

“After Bush he is the second guy to have faced shoe terrorism, India is a victim of shoe terrorism.”
Umair: It shows how updated you are with politics. You must know who is trying to hurt your friend–Chinese premier Wen Jiabao also got it in Europe. You have more info about Indians—Obsessed? It is a trend in free countries where innocent 17Yr girl is not publically spanked, rather a politician is attacked.

@Now you guys must close down all shoe factories in India and arrest all cobblers and shoe makers, a countrywide crackdown is necessary to tackle shoe terrorism.

–have not lost ur sense of humor.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

@Make sure you dont let any one in who wants to use your house to set fire in Pakistan’s backyard. Otherwise we will kick them out of Afghanistan.
- Posted by Umair

–Umair, the fire is in Pakistan and ur firefighter “army” nade a deal with fire “Taliban” and I understand you will look into Neighbor’s backyard (Afghanstan’s). But the question is will u be allowed? I think it is gameover time. suddendeath.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Global watcher says:
“Umair, India does not need the U.S. for anything. The U.S. has an old score to settle with Pakistan. Remember 911?”

–I agree. Even before that things were in such a bad shape that Sec Albright was advised to declare Pakistan as a state that sponsors terrorism. Escaped once. How many times u get lucky and in recession times one needs to clean up quick.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

sudden quiet

Posted by daman | Report as abusive

Nobody expects the ISI to break all links with the Taliban. After all, I am sure the CIA has links with the Taliban too (and even with the US Mafia).

What the ISI needs to do is stop supporting, funding, training, arming, even providing logistic support to the Taliban and its terrorist groups. That is not too much to ask. It is not only in the interest of the US, but also that of Pakistan. The bigger danger to Pakistan is its own disintegration, rather than the fear of losing influence over the Taliban.

Posted by Dave | Report as abusive

Mauryan scares:
” Go to sleep. The Americans are coming ”

In times of deep recession Americans are trying very hard to keep their economy afloat, with 650,000 jobs shed in March 2009, with GM and Ford filing bankruptcy and shutting plants, with banking sector being on life support through multi-billion dollar rescue packages and NASDAQ and wall street in tatters, the Americans might want to save on fuel and might not take the unneccesary cost to come. They might want to connect through Video Conferencing Units(VCU) a good method of cost cutting. After all the recession is very bad and economists are predicitng there is no sign of quick recovery. Americans have more to worry about at home at the economic front than the ISI in Pakistan. Mauryan dont make a mockery out of yourself, just how hard you are trying to scare me. No body is more f*cked than Treasury Secretary Timothy Githner after the AIG Bonuses fiasco. Qureshi for now finds himself in a much better position, just ask American teasury secrertary what truly feels to be butt f*cked. He will explain you nicley Mauryan.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Umair,

We all know about American economic woes. Geithner is getting his a*se rammed for trying to get the system back up. Good luck to him.

But while the economy was tanking, Obama decided to increase troops in Afghanistan and increase the alms to Pakistan at the same time. If economic issues are important, then he would have announced a date of troop withdrawal from Afghanistan, like he did for Iraq. Looks like he is going to direct those troops to Afghanistan. What will these troops do once they return home? The queue at the unemployment office is already long. So it is better to feed them and keep them engaged in critical global conflicts. So dream on. The heat is being turned on around Pakistan. All along everyone knew that the core of global terrorist problems emanated from Jinnah’s paradise. And at the center of the bull’s eye is your proud ISI. Curtains are going to be drawn on the Afghanistan/Pakistan issue. The way your terrorist brothers are getting agitated tells me that they are feeling the heat more. When economy fails, many countries crank up military offensives. It increases jobs in the military industry and gets more soldiers. If the US economy does not recover, expect a large scale war. Do not even wish for it, because your a*se is going to be right in the middle of that target.

Mauryan,
It might be very soothing and comforting for Indian to have the feelings that US is going bomb Pakistan and kill scores of Pakistanis as they did to Iraqis, Afgans, Vietnamese, Japanese and Yugassylvanian, but you and every one else (non-believer) unfortunately have very short memories when it comes to differentiate between Muslims and non-muslims.

True Islam does teaches forgiveness, peace and harmony but it does offer the highest reward (it will be hard for someone who believe a stone or cow is their God and creature) for your sacrifices for the protection of your land and faith.

It may not have been a big challenge for invaders to herd around stone, fire and cows praying hindus, and similarly for US to subdue Vietnamese, Japanese and Yugasylvanian by force or bribe, but they already have seen in case of Iran, Pelastine, Iraq and Afganistan that muslims can’t be scared by force, rather every true muslim will be more than happy to die for protecting their faith and country. I am sure President Obama, know Islam good enough to understand the task ahead of him, and will never allow use of force against Pakistan.

So stop dancing at the news that ISI crossed US path, rather get some courage on your own and instead of being a cunning hindu, come to front and fight like a brave person if you have to settle any scores with Pakistan or ISI.

Posted by Abid | Report as abusive

Guys,

Read this link. This is the kind of news that most Pakistanis get to read and no wonder they appear blind. I laughed all the way reading the article. I was looking for the line which would have called Gandhi as the leader of Taliban. May be in a future article.

http://www.paktribune.com/news/index.php  ?id=213575

Abid writes: “So stop dancing at the news that ISI crossed US path, rather get some courage on your own and instead of being a cunning hindu, come to front and fight like a brave person if you have to settle any scores with Pakistan or ISI.”

Abid,

Do not stoop down to the level of Umair. I have seen good words from you. I know that no one can predict anything about how things will go. Every moment, things can take a turn and go in a different direction. If you were an Indian, you will understand our views. Likewise, I am not expecting Pakistanis to side with our views either. Things will stay where they are between us. It is unnecessary and we did not create it. Some selfish people in the past turned brother against brother and things have gone from bad to worse.

Understand that India is a land of 1.2 billion people. Every one does not worship a stone. And there is no uniform method of worship in Hindu religions. India is also home to Sikhs, Zoarashtrians, Christians, Buddhists, Jains, Muslims, Bahais, Jews, and many others. And worshiping a stone is in no way inferior to walking around a stone in Mecca and throwing stones into a well. So let the pot not call the kettle black. At least in other religions people have the freedom to worship the way they want. Unfortunately in your religion people get stoned or even executed for thinking of alternatives. That is another topic of discussion and this forum is not the place for it. So I’ll stop here on that.

Now sleep easy. What Americans will do depends on what Pakistanis will do. Let us hope sense prevails. We are only watching the events from the outside.

I see two scenarios that crooks in the ISI must be working on to distract and deflect American efforts in the region – 1. Start a civil war internally 2. Draw India into a full scale war. Both of them will deflect American efforts. Americans can be told, “look we are in the middle of a crisis, can you wait or look elsewhere for support? India is the main culprit and please hold them off. We have our bags full already.”

They will try to strike real hard during Indian elections which will span over a few months. Suicide attacks, or Mumbai style attacks will be staged at various places, assassination attempts will also be tried. There is no need to guess on this. Kargil 2 is on the anvil already. All it will take is India’s panic and retaliation. If India does not respond as usual and manages to hold of, then the civil war option will be tried. I think the entire Pakistani establishment is together in this effort. They are deliberately allowing the Taliban to spread. Zardari signed the Swat deal into a law. They will now wait for the Indian elections to start and plan their strike. Efforts will be made to strike really hard. There will be no half baked attempts like Mumbai. Everyone who is unleashed will be told to blow himself up at the end so that no one can pull Pakistan to investigate. There will also be simultaneous activities with “local” elements involved to show that it is India’s internal problem. The goal will be to frustrate India to the maximum where they will have no choice but to retaliate.

I pray that India manages to thwart the plans and minimize the damage. Then plan B will be initiated by the ISI – civil war. These fools always think they can control what they get into. But this will be their final act before complete chaos results. Fanatics never think right. I hope the civil war option works.

This is all assuming the Americans are sitting outside sucking their thumbs. So it won’t be an easy job. I am sure the CIA is watching the activities very closely this time.

@Global watcher

“…expect heavy and massive ordinance retaliation…”

—I agree, that this seems to be the likely turnout of events in the foreseeable future, in such a scenario it’s the demand of secret wisdom that we Indian’s leave both the parties alone (ofcourse continue with our good work in AF) & await our opportune time to strike the eventual terminal thud.

Posted by Anup | Report as abusive

@global watcher
‘secret wisdom’ – i mean ‘tactical wisdom’

Posted by anup | Report as abusive

Anu writes:
” it’s the demand of secret wisdom that we Indian’s leave both the parties alone (ofcourse continue with our good work in AF) & await our opportune time to strike the eventual terminal thud.”

Yes, we know it Anup you dont need to tell us, you guys are like snakes you will go for the kill if your prey is unaware. We fortunately are keeping our eyes open. You will spit venom against someone else not us. You will never get that prime opportunity, never. Not after 1971, we know how to keep you at bay and we will.

And Mauryan, looking at how good you are at conspiracy theories, i suggest go write some novel thrillers or make an action movies for bollywood.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Mauryan comforts:
“Now sleep easy. What Americans will do depends on what Pakistanis will do. Let us hope sense prevails. We are only watching the events from the outside.”

So what are you trying to do, comfort Abid. You double faced cunning hindu liar why is that when you speak with me your language is vulgar and you are very nice to Abid. Who are you trying to fool?
Pakistan will do whatever Pakistan wants to do and in return America can follow as they like. All I know India is new to this game, we have been through this from 1979 to 1989 and we have some seasoned players who know the game inside. Its about time you Indians learn a thing or two about covert warfare. You are watching the events from outside like a movie going on, dont worry you will soon be given the lead role by the director. After all you guys are the villains here and is this good cop bad cop going on here?

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Mauryan

(@Umair writes)-”All I know India is new to this game, we have been through this from 1979 to 1989 and we have some seasoned players who know the game inside.”

—I wholeheartedly agree with umair – they’re masters at the game- look in a span of 30yrs(1979-2009) they’ve achieved the ‘impossible’ – they’ve pushed Pakistan 1400 yrs. backward. I’m sure you will not even ‘dare’ to match them at their ‘game’, so let’s accept defeat gracefully (for the sake of future generations on this planet).

Posted by anup | Report as abusive

Anup
You are accepting defeat even before game has begun. But the problem is, this time you have no choice to forfiet. Either way, you have to face the music.
As far as backwardness is concerned, India has more poverty than Pakistan. By any definition its India that is have to be backward and not Pakistan.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Umair writes: “You double faced cunning hindu liar why is that when you speak with me your language is vulgar and you are very nice to Abid. Who are you trying to fool?”

So what did they preach in your mosque today? You are going after religion now. I talk differently to different people based on their maturity and intelligent level. In the case of Abid, he does not seem to have the Madrasa experience. You are a fool already. So there is no need to take an effort. And you are being dealt with accordingly, not only by me, but also by everyone else.

You have very limited logic that follows this circular route every time: “Pakistan is the world’s super power, we have nukes, we have the largest army in the world, we defeated every enemy on sight, we ruled India for 800 years, we are well experienced in war for the past 20 years, Indians are evil, Indians are behind all misery in Pakistan, Jinnah is the father of our nation (so we are all bastar*s),” and so on. You keep saying each line and complete a circle. And circle represents nothingness, which seems to fit what is inside your head. The Mullahs took out your brain and left it empty for the time being. I can only comfort you because you have no idea that you are sitting on top of a ticking time bomb. Soon your Ajmal Kasab is going to be honored the highest award in Pakistan (Shere-e-Pakistan) for doing the brave job of killing innocent people. In India we execute such people. I also heard that your beloved Taliban shot and killed a couple for eloping yesterday. In India we call that love marriage and wish them good.

Anyway, whatever I have said will take a few months for you to understand. So go to your ISI bosses and ask them to help you out. Go on.

Saw this article in the DAWN:

http://dawntravelshow.com/dblog/2009/04/ 14/reinforcing-the-feud/

Just draw a line and people will divide. It is so interesting to watch.

Abid Says:

“True Islam does teaches forgiveness, peace and harmony but it does offer the highest reward (it will be hard for someone who believe a stone or cow is their God and creature) for your sacrifices for the protection of your land and faith.”

Since you are trying to insult my religion, let me give you the same warm gift in return. First of all, it will also be hard for youto understand hinduism, have you ever been to a hindu prayer, or a temple? I don’t think so, have you read any of the Vedas or or ancient Hindu Texts? I don’t think so.

The next thing, Islam is a religion of peace? Then why so much hatred, stealing, marrying of young girls, beheading and wars? Is religion not spread through love, gentleness and understanding or is it forced through war, occupation and the threat of death?

Why preach God and death in the same sentence? Why do the men who die in battle get 72 virgins and wine in heaven? What do women get? Would not the righteous women feel neglected after death, if their husbands were with 72 virgins? Where do the virgins come from? Don’t they have mothers and fathers and brothers and sisters? Why wine in heaven? Is it not Haram to even have wine?

Abid, what you call cow and rock worshiping has overtime become a cultural custom for some poor Hindus, it is not a part of the religion itself.

They are not actually worshiping the actual rock or cow, but what it represents. Cows are revered as a gift from God, because they ease the burden of man, they help do farm work, give you milk, butter and Hindus show their thankfulness to God by not eating God’s creation. Cows are seen as a gift from God and revered, not worshipped for what they give to humans. As far as rocks go, God exists everywhere, whether it is in a rock in a rock or a Hindu Temple.

Muslims worship an even bigger rock, in Saudi Arabia, thousands of Pilgrims walk around the Kaaba Black Stone during Hajj. There is no proof that it was linked to Adam and Eve, as far as I know it was just made up by muslims. I don’t have to believe that is true as much as you don’t have to believe that we revere cows and now worship them. So don’t feed me crxp about rock worship, millions of muslims do it everyyear during Hajj.

Get your facts straight and quit reading spiteful double standard religious propaganda designed to create religious supremacy and hatred towards non muslims.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

Abid, Umair,

My point below is to make you guys understand that you need to behave and respect other people’s religions, if you want to throw criticisms and insults, others can do the same in return. All religions, peoples are equal, all humans are equal before the creators. One should never insult the way another chooses to connect with God, as it is a personal thing. Religious judgement should be a crime.

Whether you worship Allah, Jehovah, Rama, Shiva, Ganesha, or Buddha, the whole point of religion is to make one a better human being and better towards other people, regardless of their religion or belief. That in it self makes all religions good for mankind, it is the politics of religion that is the root of evil.

Please realize that and do not further bring religion into these blogs.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

@Sanjeev

Sanjeev, we need more moderation when it comes to religion. These blogs should never become a posting ground for religious supremacy. Please block out all references to religious supremacy in discussions. When one person makes an insult about another’s religion, it invites tit for tat postings and causes the blog to greatly deviate.

It should perhaps even be posted that religious hatred and bigotry will not be tolerated by reuters.

I as an Indian Hindu, will stand up for the rights of all religions here, let it stand for the record.

Thanks in advance.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

@GW
You said “All religions, peoples are equal, all humans are equal before the creators” then
why hindu divide “all equal humans” into groups of Brahmin and untouchable?

You said “They are not actually worshiping the actual rock or cow, but what it represents. Cows are revered as a gift from God, because they ease the burden of man, they help do farm work, give you milk, butter and Hindus show their thankfulness to God by not eating God’s creation.” then
why discrimination against Goat, Sheep, Camel, Buffalo, since all these animals does exactly the same. Why do not you consider them as holly as cow. I will demand higher level of hollyness for Buffalo especially.

You said “Sanjeev, we need more moderation when it comes to religion. These blogs should never become a posting ground for religious supremacy. Please block out all references to religious supremacy in discussions. When one person makes an insult about another’s religion, it invites tit for tat postings and causes the blog to greatly deviate.” then

why do not you ask for same moderation, when it comes to attack on Islam, Pakistani people (followers of Islam) and Taliban (preacher of Islamic ideology)?

I think you are using same double standard as Nehru did in 1948, when he realized that tribals are going to annex Kashmir from India so he went to UN, and left this sore wound hanging for both nation for ever.

I do respect all religions and people. I do expect you and others to respect other religion too, be it a Talib or Pakistani. For your information, good religions spread through conversion since when people study it, they understand it and they adopt it, not through breeding of billion people with sex as the only recreation.

Posted by Abid | Report as abusive

@Abid, you said

“@GW
You said “All religions, peoples are equal, all humans are equal before the creators” then
why hindu divide “all equal humans” into groups of Brahmin and untouchable?

You said “They are not actually worshiping the actual rock or cow, but what it represents. Cows are revered as a gift from God, because they ease the burden of man, they help do farm work, give you milk, butter and Hindus show their thankfulness to God by not eating God’s creation.” then
why discrimination against Goat, Sheep, Camel, Buffalo, since all these animals does exactly the same. Why do not you consider them as holly as cow. I will demand higher level of hollyness for Buffalo especially.

You said “Sanjeev, we need more moderation when it comes to religion. These blogs should never become a posting ground for religious supremacy. Please block out all references to religious supremacy in discussions. When one person makes an insult about another’s religion, it invites tit for tat postings and causes the blog to greatly deviate.” then

why do not you ask for same moderation, when it comes to attack on Islam, Pakistani people (followers of Islam) and Taliban (preacher of Islamic ideology)?

I think you are using same double standard as Nehru did in 1948, when he realized that tribals are going to annex Kashmir from India so he went to UN, and left this sore wound hanging for both nation for ever.

I do respect all religions and people. I do expect you and others to respect other religion too, be it a Talib or Pakistani. For your information, good religions spread through conversion since when people study it, they understand it and they adopt it, not through breeding of billion people with sex as the only recreation.”

Response:

Abid, first of all there are things in every religion, which are beyond logic and do not make sense. Cows are probably more revered probably because they give much milk than goats are much more obedient than buffalos. Cows are passive and docile and to some represent the gentle side of human nature. That is probably the most logical explanation from me why cows are more revered than buffalos or goats. I hope that satisfies you.

Abid, not all things about any religion are logical or rational, they are based on blind belief and Islam is definitely in that court like Hinduism is. All that I am saying is that there are in every religion untangible, irrational, belief based dogmas which should not be used by anybody to base logical arguements on.

In case you didn’t really understand my earlier posting, I AM asking for moderation with regards to Islam as well. I may not disagree or not like the way another person worships, but I have to respect their right to do whatever they feel is right to them.

But Abid, religious equality must be observed by everbody in this modern world, by that I mean, religious tolerance must be observed in the Church, Hindu Temple, as well as the Masjid or Mosque. It is wrong to preach hate and religious superiority in a place of worship. The place of worship should be building one’s connection with the higher self or “GOD”.

There should be no politics and religion. In a secular, democratic society, that means, when it is Ramadan, to my muslim friends, I always say “happy ramadan” and “happy Eid” when it ends. In return I expect “happy holi” or “happy Shiv-ratri”, you get the point. Respect begets respect. Tolerance begets tolerance. I hope you understand that concept.

I hope you understand religious tolerance and respect are a two way street. I guarantee you 1000% that 99.99% of the Hindu temples everywhere in the world do preach religious intolerance, bigotry or hatred towards other non-hindu religions, you can see it for yourself, feel free any time to enter (for interest only) any hindu temple, you are always welcome as a guest and you will also be fed, there is no obligation of any kind. It is also the same in Sikh temples. World politics and hatred are never discussed. Conquest over others is never dicussed.

Abid also said:

“For your information, good religions spread through conversion since when people study it, they understand it and they adopt it, not through breeding of billion people with sex as the only recreation. ”

Response: I don’t agree with you, but I respect your right to believe it. Religion spreading should be through peaceful choice of the individual or “Insaan”, it should be never be through duress, intimidation for fear of death or beating, or spreading fear or hate about others.

“not through breeding of billion people with sex as the only recreation”….Abid, is this the garbage they preach in Pakistan??? For your information, it is law in India that one can have only one wife, but Muslims are excluded. Have you ever seen the Islamic Ghettos in India, with these guys who have 5 wives and 3-4 kids each? There is so much garbage and filth and the useless men have sex all day with their wives, while the women do all the work. Why do you not rant about this kind of backwardness? Why don’t you acknowledge this backwardness of Some muslims, all these guys do is have sex all day as well, some of these older men, 40+ years marry girls as young as 7 or 8. There is no progress here, are they any better than any other religion in other ghettos? NO

Do you get my point now? If you can’t grasp these basic concepts of human respect, you are mentally ill and have been brainwashed from Childhood. If you have the heart to, revisit what you think to be known and been told as fact and your eyes and mind will be opened to a much larger and wondrous universal reality.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

Mauryan
I did not attack hindusim, I didnt mean to attack hinduism. For one, I would keep religion above nationalism because we are all part of humanity, we are muslims, christians, parsi, hindus, Sikh, Bhuddists, jews. But we are all humans. The religion that I belong to, Islam has its roots in 7 continents of the world from Latin America to Australia and is based on universal brotherhood.

I told you I lived and worked abroad and had hindu and muslim friends from Gujarat and Mumbai. We lived, worked, ate, slept and hanged out together, Pakistani and Indian muslims and hindus.

Having said that, I agree there are some extremists elements or such people that do not reflect the essence (true) of the religion. You find them in minority among us(muslims) there are in India too. But overwhelming number muslims are practicing Islam and have better understanding. You only focus and highlight a handful of extremists. If I am given a choice, I would call myself a muslim first and Pakistani second. For according to one’s faith one has a duty to God(Allah). I debated with you before that Islam is a religion of peace not harm. Had that been the case, remember its 11 years since Pakistan became a nuclear power and Lt. Gen(r) Khalid Ahmed Kidwai DG (SPD) heading the nuclear command and control system is a muslim. Where did he order a nuclear strike, ticket to paradise for billion of muslims? President Musharraf banned extremists organizations in 2002, and stated that we have muslim brothers in India. When some one from Pakistan talks of conquering India, and waving the green flag of Islam on the red fort in Delhi, the centiments and feelings of our muslim brothers in India get hurt.

Mauryan, I am a product of Madrassa, I went to college and obtined a degree in business also. I am computer literate and proficient in english (IELTS 7.5). Where is the problem, my dad gave me a balanced education, i went to school in the morning, in the afternoon I learnt Quran in the Mosque. Never was I taught violence in Madrassa. Never was I taught violence in Pakistani university.

Regarding me stating any thing about Pakistan, One fine day i clicked on reuter.com and browsed on some news. I happen to come across a blog Pakistan: Now or never. Off you go, accusations, insults against Pakistan. That day onward, I made a commitment to answer anyone who dares to speak against Pakistan. I can take constructive criticism. I knwo Indians generally are concerned, naturally because after Pakistan, the next target of millitants will be India. This morning i bought the daily english “The News”. A retired Indian Army officer wrote an open letter on that newspaper in a column to Pakistan Army chief Gen. Ashfaq Kayani. Crux, take on the millitants, crush them. We are doing it. If we can unite, we will be able to fight them. Yes, there is a danger, there is a threat. But accusations and insults against Pakistan is not the answer and doesnt make anything better. We loose together or we win together, the phenomenon of terrorism has no boundaries, no religion. It holds the same whether Baitullah Mehsud or Col. Purohit. Islamabad bombing or Mumbai attacks. Whether Lahore burns or Delhi jolts, its terrorism we need to tackle. Not hinduism or Islam or India or Pakistan.

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Mauryan
one last thing, the problem arises when an attempt is made blindly to associate a certain religion or group of people and carry out a smear campaign to associate them with terrorism. It was done in recent and those who did it are paying a heavy price.
The British empire declined after world war 2. Probably, Iraq, Afghanistan and Vietnam are the cause of American downfal. Atleast waning of influence you would agree if downfall is a far cry.

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No traces of Taliban in IoK: Indian Army chief
BUSINESS RECORDER April 14, 2009

NEW DELHI (updated on: April 14, 2009, 18:24 PST): There are no traces of the Taliban in occupied Jammu and Kashmir, Indian Army chief Deepak Kapoor said on Tuesday and added that the force was prepared to check the surge in infiltration in the run-up to the elections.

“We have had no traces of Taliban. There are other elements like LeT (Lashkar-e-Taiba) and the JeM (Jaish-e-Mohammed),” he told reporters on the sidelines of an international seminar, responding to reports of involvement of certain Taliban elements in the infiltration in the valley.

“We had already foreseen all this (infiltration bids) happening and were quite well prepared. That is why our troops are there on the LoC (Line of Control). We have put a three-tier defence system in place … And we have been able to check infiltration,” General Kapoor said.

With the first phase of the Lok Sabha elections only two days away, there has been an increase in the cross border infiltration bids in the Kashmir Valley.

“During the run-up to the elections we had expected that there would be certain amount of calibrations from the other side. We will be able to beat the situation and the Lok Sabha elections will be as peaceful as the assembly elections (in Jammu and Kashmir),” General Kapoor added.

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@Umair,

You are right it is not fair to associate terrorism with all muslims, it is wrong. In the context of Pakistan, the frustration is with POLITICS of religion and how it mates with ARMY and CIVILIAN POLITICS. Indians and the world are frustrated and see dishonesty and find it hard to separate even some moderate muslims from terrorism, you know why? It comes to some basic things going on in Pakistan, as outsiders, here is what we see:

-ISI and Pak Army training and supporting Kashmiri Militants. You see the problem here? The Military is used the religious fervor to further political and strategic gain against India. When we see not enough moderates speaking out against this mating of religion with politics and army, what are we supposed to think? Tell me.

-We are frustrated that you Pakistanis say one thing but do another. You claim Islam is a Religion of Peace. Sure it maybe, if practiced in a moderate, rational manner, like any other religion. We are frustrated that you people just conceded the SWAT valley to Islamic Radicals. We did not see any moderates protesting this why???????? Outside of Pakistan, please be logical, what are we supposed to think? To us, it just looks like you people condone the Taliban.

Why does the Pakistani literature still contain hateful and disdainful things towards India? What are we supposed to think? All we see is that you hate us on religious grounds.

At the end of the day, the frustration Indians have is that Moderate Muslims are not doing enough or applying enough pressure to resist hatred, religious intolerance, backwardness of the Taliban and racism towards Hindus. We are also frustrated that moderates, being 99% of muslims, are not doing enough to separate themselves from the Extremists. They are not doing a good enough job of keeping Fireband IMAMS and clerics who preach politics, supremacy and hate in check and out of their mosques. The moderates are not doing a good enough job of kicking these guys out and ostracizing their backward ways. What are we supposed to think when even Moderates still utter a childhood entitled hatred towards JEWs? how are we supposed to perceive those things.

Do you understand the disconnect between what you call normal and what the rest of us call normal? I hope I make some sense.

Pakistan befuddled on the Ajmal Kasab issue about 10 times and then when one Pakistani admitted he was Pakistani, he was fired and then Pakistan had to finally acknowledge he was Pakistan, what are we one the outside supposed to think?

Don’t get me wrong, India has its problems and some terrorist too, but they are locally contained and NOT spilling over into the streets of Pakistan, commiting MUMBAI’s

Pakistan has to do a much better job of separating Religion from Politics and Religion from Army and Army from Politics. The impotent manner in which nothing is done by the moderates is the root frustration of the moderates in India.

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Umair, let me add one more thing on this off topic. It is because Pakistan recognizes itself as Islamic First, that the extremist and radical muslims have, what they feel in their minds, a legitimate right to rule and take over Pakistan, because they feel the moderates as muslims are not as good as they are, religiously speaking.

If Pakistan can redefine its nationalism without the context of Religion and animosity with India. The Islamic Radicals would dissappear in time. Pakistan needs to define itself not as an Islamic country that has good things, but as a Good Country first, which just happens to be Islamic.

I know I am treading on an old topic, but that is the root of the problem. Religion should never be used as the basis for nationalism or unity. Until that stops, Pakistan is always going to be plagued with old, archaic ways of doing things and will always be prisoner of its own problems, locked in a vicious circle of Religion, Army and Politics, like a dog chasing its tale. There will never be a way for Pakistani’s to build any concensus amongst themselves. Mr. Bhutto was on the right track, but since Zia Al Haq’s marriage with religion and state this has reaffirmed a stagnant, single minded way of thinking which has stunted and in many ways killed Pakistan’s potential and its ability to create internal political consensus and given rise to who feel the 8th century is a legitimate and only way of living and looking at the world.

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Global watcher
Yes, you make a lot of sense, I understand(I hear you) your concerns.

-Pakistan might be using Jihadi proxies to counter India, it might be possible. But just remember US knows it, US knows there are problems between India and Pakistan. Pakistan uses these proxies, backed with nuclear weapons to counter a bigger enemy(India). Let me assure there is some blame that India needs to share here also. If it was only Pakistan at fault, the US might have gone to war with Pakistan. Instead, what both President Obama and PM Gordon Brown have said is that India must sit down and resolve Kashmir. There are issues between India and Pakistan that needs to be sorted out. Pakistan also feels Indian consulates In Afghanistan are being used to arm and train millitants and infiltrate in Pakistan to carry out terrorism. There is some degree of truth in it.

Secondly, be rest assured the education system is rapidly advancing in Pakistan, I am an example. My parents were not much educated by I am more and I will ensure my childrens get the best. My aunt is a teacher, she told me how the syllabus has got advanced. For get about what your image is of Pakistan, last year in Britain alone 42000 students were issued visas with an average of 100 visas per day to study in UK. Than count the US, Canada, Sweden, Germany, just do the math how many scholarship student are sent abroad by Higher education commission.

Are we surrendering to radicals in SWAT? some might think. Our Army says it does not want to fight and kill its own people. We have to calm them down and talk to them. Educate them, take guns out of their hands and give them pens. Open up shops for them, give them jobs, provide hospitals for them. SWAT will change and bounce back as a tourist resort once it was.

Its the average common man (muslims) in Pakistan that are bearing the brunt of terrorism. On 20 Sept 2008 last year, i walked out of my office after the day at work, passed on foot in front of the Marriot hotel just next door, it was Ramadan and I was fasting. Same after noon there was a breaking news that a five star hotel has been bobmed in Islamabad and details are still emerging. That turned out to be Marriot hotel, the area was sealed, our staff reached our office building next to it, it was a devastating scene, tonnes of explosives had created a deep crater, the cielings came down and roofs collapsed. If we would have been inside our office, I would doubt we could have survived it.

Now do you understand what we have and are going through, I have seen the red mosque siege in Islamabad, I have seen Benazir Bhutto assassinated in Dec 2007. Pakistan is at war. Next time when you start accusing Pakistan, just remember what I told you are not fabricated stories, I have lived it out and seen it all. But we are strong, we are undettered. We have to win, for us failure is not an option. Where do you help us when you accuse Pakistan and ISI, what else you want to listen. Do you want to know how close the Paksitan Army surgeon general was martyred in a suicide bombing from my house, or do you want to know how many minutes it takes from my house to walk to the site where ISI personnel were boarding their bus to their office and it was blown to pieces. I was in my office and heard a boom, nearby an Italian resturant was bombed, why? someone thought American FBI officials were staying in it. Marriot Hotel was bombed, why ? someone thaught US Marines were staying in it. In Pakistan anything Amercian and you are in trouble. Why? Probably Ameericans need to see what went wrong.

Despite of above, all is not lost. We are not leaving Pakistan as it is often predicted to be on the verge of collapse. Our wonderful country has termendous potential and we will turn things around. We love Pakistan and it belongs to us, not the millitants. We will not surrender our great nation to them, never not at any cost. Even if ultimate price is paid, as every day many Pakistanis are paying.
Good luck to you for the election day!

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It is good to hear a more level tone from you Umair. There is no reason that parent and child(India and Pakistan) need to be estranged and hate each other. Reconciliation and a deeper understanding is possible if Pakistan takes certain “soft” steps in its future development. India has some improvements to do as well, but Pakistan much more, you can’t deny that.

It is true that the moderates in Pakistan have taken the brunt of the violence and its good to know that some people like you are hopeful for a better tomorrow, regardless of the violence.

I agree that Pakistan does not need America or India to interfere in its problems. But America is interfering to keep India at bay and taking advantage of a Pakistan, which still has not properly defined itself and who and what it is. There fore Pakistan has been weakened by US interference and Islamic Radical’s interference.

It is therefore the 170 million moderates, who have to take charge and show a spine towards Radicalists who want your country. The 170 million moderates mush show and demonstrate to the world that Pakistan is theirs and not America’s or the Radical Islamists. If you do that, America will just go away and there will be no Mumbai’s and neither India or Pakistan have to spend so much on defense and other non-productive endeavors.

You also said:

“Where did he order a nuclear strike, ticket to paradise for billion of muslims? President Musharraf banned extremists organizations in 2002, and stated that we have muslim brothers in India.”

I just have to add to that, you also have Hindu brothers there as well. The genetic markers in India and Pakistan would show that it is one family, regardless of religion, despite 60 years of partition. Just because we pray in different places, that is not good enough reason to separate us.

Again, that is why I say that Pakistan has to redefine itself as a Nation first and Islamic Second, just like Turkey.

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Yes Global watcher I agree, Pakistan is a great nation and needs to attain its true potential. Be respected internationally as Turkey, we do have an image problem I agree. I sure am very much incouraged by your words. And you also have our word, we will never let any millitants slip out of our territiry or use it to set your house on fire. For we are muslims, believe in wishing for others what we wish for ourselves, peace.

Global watcher, India and Pakistan were very close to clinch a peace deal around 2007 through back channel talks. Progress was made, i can bet you as a Pkaistani that Musharraf had guts. we will achieve it. India is the bigger party here and naturally has to do more, give more concessions. For Pakistn doesnt have the previlege of time, time iHe did things in Pakistan that were never done before, he took steps that no one ever took. He tried to genuinely make peace with India but we missed it. I am sure India and Pakistan are one step forward to achieve the target. Next time s running out. Musharraf recently said that India was slow to sepond to peace initiatives. Let Ajmal Kasab not destroy the India-Pakistan composite dialogue. Maybe we can see ISI giving up on its agendas. If India- Pakistan rivalry is finished, a lot will change. The choice we need to make, what do we need. After Mumbai was terrorized, Islamabad was rocked and Lahore streets were bloodied, if we get down and say, hey look this is our moment. Lets do it, lets finish the fight, lets stop our enmity and redefine our common enemy. Lets educate so no other Ajmal Kasab’s take up guns, lets build hospitals, schools and markets. Lets create busniess opportunities, Our children will have a brighter future, we will be in peace from within and without. Can we do it? Barack Obama said Yes we can! if he did it or not history will tell but atleast he is trying.
Can we even try? I am sure we can. Because if we dont, we will always regret we never tried and think if we would have tried we might well have made it.

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@Umair,

The Kashmir issue cannot be discussed and it would be premature to discuss anything until Radical Militant Islam is crushed in Pakistan. Pakistan also has to redine itself as a country first, rather than a muslim country first. The reason I say this is that if militants are not crushed, if Kashmir is made more loose for travel for both sides, that the Militants will start sliding into India and starting more terrorism and start the same Separatist garbage in Gujarat and creating more LeT’s and so on in India Kashmir.

Secondly, Pakistan MUST redefine itself in a context other than religion. It absolutely MUST do this. The reason for this is that Religion cannot be used as a reason, fuel, or a vehicle for religious zealots or even civilian zealots to make Religiously entitled land grabs on India. That cannot happen.

It would have been a mistake for Mushie and Singh to agree on anything with out these Two major steps in place to provide a guarantee of safety security for India. Pakistani complacency on Radical Extremists is a very good reason to not even bring up the issue. India has not been made to feel safe to even bring up the issue, unless Pakistan cleans up its back yard permanently and reforms its national reason for existence.

Indian assurance of safety and security is the main reason why Kashmir will never be discussed, until Pakistan meets those two conditions permanently and wholeheartedly.

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there was some cut paste error in my last post, it might seem little out.

-I am trying to say India and Pakistan were close to reach a peace deal in 2007 but did not succeed. We should be able to the next time.

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Global watcher I discussed the challenges we face in detail. Aren’t we going back to square one.
Look, unless we have some sort of agreement on Kashmir, I dont see ISI making any changes to its strategy. If we lost East Pakistan in 1971, if we cant have a solution to Kashmir and than India opens up 7 consulates in Afghanistan (apparently to destabilize Pakistan) than Indian embassy is bombed in Kabul. Ask the ISI if you did it, it doesnt say “No, I didnt do it”, rather it replies look their are 7 Indian consulates in Afghanistan who train and send terrorists in to Pakistan.
Even Americans are clueles, they accuse the ISI of aiding the millitants. But they know if America was in same position CIA would have done the same. Look, Global watcher give us a reason to sever and cut ties with millitants. Tell us you are sincerely willing to talk and settle Kashmir. For now millitants give us a whole lot of leverage against India. Pakistan is smaller, a combination of nuclear weapons, conventional forces and Jihadi proxies has so far done very well to keep India at bay and tackle it. Do you want this to continue or do you want to change?
Look, US is crying foul and accusing ISI is aiding millitants. But what can the US do? nothing. Themselves Americans are dependent on ISI.
If India Pakistan rivalry is finished there will be no need for ISI. Its a simple economics law of supply and demand. Keep up the demand of Kashmiri sufferings and thers plenty of supply of proxies in Pakistan to bleed India. Do we need to bleed each other?

Regarding Pakistan. Pakistan is an Islamic republic. It cant be secular like India, Saudi Arabia is a monarchy, Britain is a Kingdom, Canada is a commonwealth, Cubans are communists. Can you tell anyone of them to change, are you telling Pakistan to change its roots? thats unlike;ly.

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Global watcher
before you misinterpret something and get into confusion. Let me clarify something here.
There are some former veteran Mujahideen factions like Gulbudin Hekmatyar and Jala-ud-Din Haqqani network that have close ties to ISI and they are not anti-Pakistan. Those guys have probably(not sure) some level of support.
But than on the other there are some anti-Pakistan millitants(Arabs, Uzbek, Tajik, even Russia and Iran are also thought to be invovled) I dont want to sound rude but some’so called India spoonsored millitants also involved.

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—“Pakistani Student visa scam allowing terror suspects into Britain”
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk  /crime/article6088249.ece
“Britain Prime Minister, Gordon Brown yesterday pointed the finger at Pakistan, saying it needed to do more to stop suspected terrorists coming in to the UK.”
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk  /crime/article6071949.ece

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Gulbuddin Hekmatyar
““Pakistan has played the w*ore,” he said on his expulsion. “It took the money while we gave our blood. We rid Afghanistan of the Russians and one day we will descend from the mountains and put you right.”

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Umair,

In a transparent world with the internet, even pictures of UFO’s and space alien bodies are available for viewing, but I have never ever seen any evidence of Hindu terrorists or Hindu Army in Pakistan, or any sign of their weapons. How is India, American Afghanistan and the world able to hide this, if it is true, so well from the eyes of the media, internet and newspapers? There are two answers to that either there is an elaborate, complicated evil conspiracy, or it just is not true. I think it is more likely the latter. If by some stretch of the imagination, India is fueling terrorism by giving weapons, it is not with the knowlegdge or consent of the People of India and India has the same problem as Pakistan. If that was the case, the U.S. would have piped up about this a long time ago and you would have seen more of this sort of thing on Reuters or BBC. You must not indulge in conspiracy stories, please base arguements on available facts.

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Global Watcher:

Since Indians constantly accuse Pakistan of terrorism in their country without a shred of proof, Pakistanis can do the same to India.

Eight years of American failure in Afghanistan have conveniently been placed at ISI’s door. It is appropriate for Pakistan to resist being the scapegoat.

GW writes: “Religion should never be used as the basis for nationalism or unity. Until that stops, Pakistan is always going to be plagued with old, archaic ways of doing things and will always be prisoner of its own problems, locked in a vicious circle of Religion, Army and Politics, like a dog chasing its tale. There will never be a way for Pakistani’s to build any concensus amongst themselves.”

I’d go a step further. No nation should be found on any ideology, be it religion, ethnicity, language, caste, race, socialism or communism etc. Such radical definitions for nations does not fit into the world of today. All these divisions happen automatically between people and they have a very strong emotional base. And emotions turn people into “us versus them” mindset. What is needed today are nations that are based on multi-cultural, multi-ethnic, multi-linguistic, multi-religious societies that can help people understand and appreciate others and learn to adjust with each other. Jinnah himself said that “A Muslim will cease to be a Muslim, a Hindu will cease to be a Hindu,” in a secular Pakistan. I wouldn’t have had a problem with a separation of Pakistan if it became desperate. But what I would have preferred is a controlled and phased manner in which the nations should have separated. Violence should never have been allowed. The British had the capability to do that when they separated India and Pakistan. The cross migration of people should have been done under military/police control and no one should have been hurt. That would have helped both countries start out on a positive note.

For America, the problem is Pakistan
By Anatol Lieven FINANCIAL TIMES
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/5b6a8602-23a4- 11de-996a-00144feabdc0.html

Published: April 7 2009 20:11 | Last updated: April 7 2009 20:11

We will need to remind ourselves often in the next few years that the situation in Afghanistan and Pakistan is not the Obama administration’s fault. It inherited from George W. Bush a crisis so deep and so horribly complex that dealing with it would tax the powers of St Peter, let alone a US government with many other things on its mind and on its grossly overstrained budget. Improving the situation is the best that we can hope for. Finding a “solution” to the Afghan war and its repercussions in Pakistan is not even a possibility.

On Afghanistan itself, the administration’s new strategy, set out last week, strikes most of the right notes. In particular, it is correct to emphasise the critical importance of building up the Afghan National Army, without which nothing can be achieved in Afghanistan in the long term; and on the need for the US to work towards an exit strategy rather than engage in empty rhetoric about “staying the course”. Talk of creating a modern, western-style democracy in Afghanistan has been drastically scaled back.

The administration has also done something that should have been obvious from the very beginning and reached out to Afghanistan’s northern and western neighbours. When the US eventually leaves Afghanistan, regional powers – perhaps grouped in the Shanghai Co-operation Council – will have to try to manage Afghanistan’s ongoing conflict.

As the administration seems to have understood, Iran is critical in this regard. Iranian support saved the opponents of the Taliban from complete defeat before 9/11 and will be essential to preserving whatever regime the US leaves behind in Kabul when it eventually withdraws. Trade with Iran is vital to the Afghan economy, and aid from Iran could be vital to Afghan development. Finally, because the US and Iran share the same basic agenda in Afghanistan, the US administration is quite rightly using talks on Afghanistan as an avenue towards improving the wider relationship with Tehran.

So as far as Afghanistan is concerned, so far so good. The problem is Pakistan. As the new strategy recognises, the two countries are now hopelessly interlinked, with a Taliban insurgency rooted in the Pashtun populations of each raging on both sides of the border. Putting greatly increased US pressure on the Afghan Taliban will indeed be immensely difficult if this is not accompanied by real help from the Pakistani state and military against Taliban support on their soil.

Yet the US may well have no choice but to proceed without Pakistan. Here, it seems to me, the Obama administration still does not fully recognise the depths of the problem it is facing, or the tremendous risks it will run by trying to bend Pakistan to its will over the Afghan war. For as both opinion polls and my own research on the ground have made abundantly clear, the truth is that a large majority of ordinary Pakistanis are bitterly opposed to Pakistan helping the US, especially if this involves the Pakistani army fighting the Taliban.

It is true that calculations by the Pakistani security establishment and intelligence services also play a part in limiting Pakistani actions against the Taliban; but the basic problem is a democratic one. A democratically elected government cannot afford simply to defy a public opinion this strong. Nor indeed can an army that has to recruit its soldiers from Pakistani villages – not from Mars or Pluto – and ask them to risk their lives. As a Pakistani general put it to me last year: “We can survive without American money and arms if we have to, though of course we don’t want to. But we cannot survive without the loyalty of our jawans [men].”

If the Obama administration wants to have any hopes of transforming such public attitudes in Pakistan then it will need to fund Pakistan to a vastly greater degree than is envisaged in its new strategy, in ways that will visibly transform the lives of many ordinary Pakistanis. This requires above all massive investment in infrastructure – especially relating to water – in ways that will also generate many jobs. At $1.5bn (€1.1bn, £1bn) a year, the new US aid that is promised sounds like a lot – until you remember that Pakistan now has about 170m people. Eight dollars per head is not going to transform anything much in the country. More-over, the US statement emphasises that the aid will be made conditional on Pakistan’s help to the US against the Taliban. This is a recipe for constant hold-ups, congressional blockages and the wrecking of any consistent, long-term programmes.

Unfortunately, it seems as if the new administration has not recognised two critical facts about Pakistan. The first is that the stabilisation and development of this country is not merely an aspect of the war in Afghanistan, but a vital US interest in itself. Indeed, Pakistan in the long term is far more important than Afghanistan. The second is that changing Pakistani opinions will mean changing Pakistani society, and that is a project that will require massive, sustained and consistent aid over a generation.

If on the other hand Washington thinks that it can play Pakistani governments like a fish on an aid hook in order to extract much greater help in the Afghan war, then it will undermine and finally destroy those governments, as it did that of Pervez Musharraf. Even more importantly, if it does succeed in forcing the Pakistani army to do things that its soldiers detest, it may destroy the army. This would be a catastrophe for the US that would dwarf even defeat in Afghanistan.

The writer is a professor in the War Studies Department of King’s College London and a senior fellow of the New America Foundation in Washington DC. He is currently researching a book on Pakistan

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- Putting greatly increased US pressure on the Afghan Taliban will indeed be immensely difficult if this is not accompanied by real help from the Pakistani state and military against Taliban support on their soil.

- Obama administration still does not fully recognise the depths of the problem it is facing, or the tremendous risks it will run by trying to bend Pakistan to its will over the Afghan war.

-majority of ordinary Pakistanis are bitterly opposed to Pakistan helping the US, especially if this involves the Pakistani army fighting the Taliban.

-It is true that calculations by the Pakistani security establishment and intelligence services also play a part in limiting Pakistani actions against the Taliban.

- A democratically elected government cannot afford simply to defy a public opinion this strong. Nor indeed can an army that has to recruit its soldiers from Pakistani villages.

-As a Pakistani general put it to me last year: “We can survive without American money and arms if we have to, though of course we don’t want to. But we cannot survive without the loyalty of our jawans [men].”

-If the Obama administration wants to have any hopes of transforming such public attitudes in Pakistan then it will need to fund Pakistan to a vastly greater degree than is envisaged in its new strategy, in ways that will visibly transform the lives of many ordinary Pakistanis.

-Indeed, Pakistan in the long term is far more important than Afghanistan.

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Abid,

You had asked why Hindus have caste system which openly discriminates. I wrote a reply for that and for some reason, could not get it to post. I am giving it a second try here. Here are the important things to know about Hinduism.

1. There is no such thing as Hinduism, though everyone uses this term to distinguish themselves from others who are not. This term was coined by the British since they were used to seeing monolithic religions with a book on the codes and a founder. “Hinduism” had none.

2. The word “Hindu” is a geographical term, similar to the term “American” or “African” or “Chinese.” It is a generic term that was used to denote the denizens of the land to the East of the river Sindh. Every religion native to this land can be termed as a “Hindu” religion, meaning, originated from the land of the the Hindh.

3. The term Hindu religions would be more appropriate. This way one can understand the many Gods, religions, philosophies, cults, rituals, traditions etc that look similar to the untrained eye, but are distinct when looked at closely. This is like our view of Chinese or Africans. There is a generality, but in close quarters there are lot of variations that are not immediately apparent.

4. So when you insult “Hindus,” you may be insulting all religions in India or a specific one that follows the procedure that you are ridiculing – cow worshiping for example.

5. Coming to castes – In Bhagavat Gita there is some explanation for this. It is based on the in born nature of an individual. Each person has a tendency to gravitate towards a behavior and mindset, irrespective of his birth. Those who are worldly, have no interest in high level thinking and are happy enjoying ordinary things are strongly influenced by the Shudra nature. Similarly one can explain the others. Brahman is the one who is fully self realized and knows. Such people in reality are rare. I’d same real Brahmans are people like Christ, Krishna, Buddha etc. And there are people of that type even now. In some religions they’d be called as prophets.

What you see in reality is far different from what the principle says. Caste system is a social evil more than a religious one. It exists even amongst people who have converted to other distinct religions like Christianity, Islam etc in some places.

There is no official conversion to “Hinduism.” Any one can call himself a Hindu and follow whatever procedure he likes. There will be no fatwa issued to get his head. There are fanatics in every system and India is not devoid of that. Emotional people are everywhere. If you try to figure out my religion, you will not succeed. I take the best from every religion and can still call myself a Hindu. I go to Darghas, Sufi shrines, famous churches, Golden Temple, Buddhist places of worship, “Hindu” temples and I love that Bahai temple in Delhi. I love the spirit and it is in every human being. There are saints in every religion and for a “Hindu” God is in everything. But if people start pointing at me, my emotions will defend me unfortunately.

Aamir Ali writes: “Since Indians constantly accuse Pakistan of terrorism in their country without a shred of proof, Pakistanis can do the same to India.”

Wrong. Just denying does not hide the truth. India could have accused Nepal or Bangladesh or Burma or Sri Lanka for the same reason. Why would it single out Pakistan? We have nothing to gain by being hostile towards any nation. Pakistan has been engaged in insurgency operations inside Indian territory, the Mumbai attacks in Nov 2008 being one of them. Let us not go in circles. Every time a lot of discussions, references and arguments happen on this issue and at the end of it, someone like this comes and starts it all over again. Pakistan has engaged in unnecessary activities that has led to its condition today. It is for you, the Pakistanis to reflect on and see how you can start from ground zero again. India has a bag load of issues to tackle and the last thing it wants is a conflict with its neighbors. We recognize Pakistan’s capabilities. And we’d like to move on.

“Eight years of American failure in Afghanistan have conveniently been placed at ISI’s door. It is appropriate for Pakistan to resist being the scapegoat.”

The Americans should never have come to the rescue of Afghanistan in the first place. The British should never have colonized the sub-continent. We can go on and on. The reality is now. You have a problem at your door. And I understand that you believe in your ISI wholeheartedly. But that is more based on emotions than on rational thought. ISI has gotten way too powerful for its national interests and the current problems of global terrorism have strong roots in that. Just because you are a Pakistani, it does not mean you have to defend everything that is Pakistani. There could be things wrong in your system too, just like you are accusing the American policies. Every country has its villains and in the case of Pakistan, the ISI is owning your country and sets its domestic and foreign policies. Your domestic policies are your own affairs. But the foreign policies seem to affect others in the region and has gotten out of hand. That is why the Americans are trying to arm twist the ISI.

Aamir, writes to Global Watcher:

Since Indians constantly accuse Pakistan of terrorism in their country without a shred of proof, Pakistanis can do the same to India.

Eight years of American failure in Afghanistan have conveniently been placed at ISI’s door. It is appropriate for Pakistan to resist being the scapegoat.

Response:

Aamir, Indians for good reasons, I don’t need to reiterate and list all the history here, for all the terrorism and its direct links to ISI or Ex ISI people, Pakistan, its Army or ISI have not once made a positive, proactive overture to ensure the safety and protection of its neighbour India. Just tell me, what are Indians supposed to feel and think? Safe? I don’t think so. Time and again, India, US and the world have had to rely on intense diplomatic pressure to get any action from Pakistan. In short, Pakistani establishment has not made any true friendly deep overtures to ensure a sense of trust in Indians. The status quo has been maintained by Pakistan, despite the terrorist attacks on India, including Mumbai.

I hope that answers your question.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

Umair writes: “unless we have some sort of agreement on Kashmir, I dont see ISI making any changes to its strategy. If we lost East Pakistan in 1971, if we cant have a solution to Kashmir and than India opens up 7 consulates in Afghanistan (apparently to destabilize Pakistan) than Indian embassy is bombed in Kabul”

Kashmir is not the reason for problems in Afghanistan. If Kashmir issue had been resolved, it would only have expanded the problem inside Pakistan. Where would all jihadists go? There are no jobs for them and they are used to fighting. So they will expand further into India with a slogan that India is weak, and Hindus deserve to be plundered. Kashmir is not the problem. It is an excuse to keep the fire of hatred burning. Kashmir can only be discussed with a Pakistan that acts like a normal country – stable, democratic, not ruled by an intelligence agency, devoid of religious radicalism and terrorist elements. Let Pakistan get back to that normal state. Then Kashmir can be discussed along diplomatic lines. Militancy will never wrest anything from others. Those brutal methods cannot work against a large nation. You guys must give up on this. Otherwise it will lead to your own downfall.

Prove that the Indian consulates have destabilized Pakistan. Where is your proof? For Mumbai attacks, proof was provided and FBI and M16 had to tell your government to admit the involvement of Pakistan’s elements. Likewise, provide very clear references. Otherwise you are making up stories. As far as I know there are two Indian embassies in Afghanistan. Where did 7 come from from? Anyone has concrete reference to this?

A lie told a thousand times begins to look like a truth. Some Pakistanis are indulging in this. That is why the reaction is so harsh.

Mauryan
There is something called “covert warfare”, Mumbai attacks were a terrorist strike. When ISI will undertake a covert op, chances are me and you will not figure it out, not have proof all the times.

CIA deputy director was in Pakistan last July to confront officials on proof of conversation between ISI operatives and individuals who carried out the Indian embassy bombing in Kabul(allegedly). But he was provided proofs of Indian involvemnent in terrorist activities in Baluchistan. The idea is, India has declared if Pakistan bled us in Kashmir, we can do the same through Baluchistan. The US knows this, independent observers and analysts say that unless there is covert warfare between India and Afghanistan.
My close friend is a captain in Ordnance corps in Pakistan Army, his unit was involved in Baluchistan. He told me heis unit confiscated sophisticated weapons from millitants and he burned them discarded them with his own hands.
Pakistan, the Army and ISI know every street and corner, cave and ditch in Afghanistn. We fought a long covert warfare against the Soviets inside Afghanistan. Pakistan knows whats going on there. However, since you have asked proof, and I have a habit of research I will surely search and am sure will also be able to share some links with you.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Umair
“We fought a long covert warfare against the Soviets inside Afghanistan. Pakistan knows whats going on there”

You care so much for your sovereignty. what about afghanistan’s sovereignty?

We will wait for your proofs on indian involvement in Balochistan!

Posted by chirkut | Report as abusive

The problem is that Pakistanis still don’t realize, how big a threat they’re facing from Taliban & other extremists. An overwhelming majority of Pakistanis consider the Americans & the Indians to be their enemies, rather than the Extremist groups like Taliban.
The truth is that if America left Pakistan alone today, the whole of Pakistan would be under the control of Taliban, by tomorrow. Do the Pakistanis really wanna go down that road?
It seems to me that nothing can stop the Talibanization of Pakistan because the Pakistanis would rather be under a Taliban rule, than fight extremism with the help of external forces. It’s a false pride issue and unfortunately, its consequences will be disastrous for Pakistan. Just like a naughty kid, who wants to play with fire, despite being forbidden, Pakistan won’t learn it’s lesson, until it burns itself. Let us all just hope that it doesn’t burn down the whole house.

Posted by Pete | Report as abusive

Chirkut
We had no choice, American spy planes took flight from Peshawar and did reconnisance missions over USSR. We were forced to fight the war of our soverignity in Afghanistan, the Durand line is still not a recognized border. The USSR was planning to access the warm waters of Arabian Gulf(Karachi port). Just google:
U2 SPY PLANE INCIDENT,

after that incident the USSR Prime Minister threatened nuclear annihilation of Pakistani cities. We had to drive them out of Afghanistan because it was a question of serious concern.

And yes, I owe you guys some independent links of (if any) available proof of Indian involvement in Baluchistan. I will search and get back soon, and one more thing what I have stated is the general perception. If anyone finds any material for or against this, please share it.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Some readers have complained about their comments not getting posted. While I can’t get into individual cases, I take this opportunity to again urge you to confine your comments to issues raised in the blog rather than engage in an individual debate. Perhaps that can be done on some other platform?

Indeed we also have readers demanding greater moderation of comments. We don’t want to be stifle debate here, but it has frequently spun off into attacks on each other or another religion. Again I request you to take your views about religion elsewhere – this wasn’t meant to be a blog on religious beliefs

We will be forced to close off the discussion if we continue to receive comments that are offensive or not relevant to the post.

May I suggest, for a start, that readers direct their comment to the blog author rather than each other ?

Posted by Sanjeev Miglani | Report as abusive

Hi Sanjeev
Thanks for input, i would follow the guidelines in future and address only minimum relevant comments to the author (yourself, Myra etc). If you may allow me, I have one suggestion to make: can you please also engage with us in the discussion? for example carry it forward by sharing links, references etc, this will help us shaping our views.

Over a period of time, i have learnt a lot through this blog. I have learnt how generally Pakistan is percieved and what views are held by others. I have also let my views known as well openly.

Thank you

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

I read about U2 spy plane incident and what i could gather is that Pakistan tried to play smart by aiding in US spy venture and antagonized USSR in the process. That incident happened in 1960s

I also did a quick recap of Afghan invasion by USSR and it appears that USSR moved into Afghanistan to save pro-Communist govt from rebellion. That incident happened in 1980s, 20 yr later of U2 incident. And it appears that from then on Pakistan started using waging proxy war in Afghanistan. At that time there was no US involvement. The motive of ZKB was to remove the current Afghan govt coz they were refusing to recognize Durand line. Again Pak tried to play smart and got a Bear next door.

However I didn’t find any material on plans by Russian to capture Karachi. Although i did find this conspiracy theory mentioned by the nutcase called Zaid Hamid.

In this whole Af-Pak-USSR saga i can only find Pak doing “AA bail mujhe maar”

Posted by chirkut | Report as abusive

Here is a link for Umair, Aamir Ali, Abid etc. Here is the article, written by a non-Indian, that spills the beans on ISI’s sinister side, why Pakistan is a dangerous place etc. Everything we have discussed so far about Pakistan is in this article. This is not some Indian imagination. Please come down to earth and accept the truth. This way you still have time to put your country in order so that everyone can sleep in peace.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/ 2009/apr/14/pakistan-taliban-india-petra eus-afghanistan?commentpage=1&commentpos ted=1

Sanjeev Miglani
“May I suggest, for a start, that readers direct their comment to the blog author rather than each other ?”

—Perfect. It would also add more value to the blog if the author responds to some selected posts…ofcourse choosing the worthy one’s is the Author’s privilege..

Posted by anup | Report as abusive

Here is Ahmed Rashid’s words on why Taliban must be curtailed right now. Rashid clearly says that Indian activities in Afghanistan are merely conspiracy theories floating inside Pakistan’s defense establishment and its supporters.

http://news.rediff.com/special/2009/apr/ 15/-there-could-soon-be-an-indian-taliba n.htm

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/arti cle/ALeqM5jPvJtW2lhKCSNDHBUJHudVLddiewD9 7J1JIO0

Pakistan’s beggar bowl is out again. Please don’t say that Pakistan is being maligned or based. Pakistan is doing that to itself.

Resolution iron clad defeat of the Taliban MUST be delivered.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

- problems fueled by the global economic slowdown as well as the faltering U.S. war effort in Afghanistan.

-Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi said the message of political support from the “Friends” of Pakistan was even more important than the sums they pledge.

-”Without Pakistan, there is no hope,” of defeating extremism in the region, he said Wednesday in a TV interview. “Pakistan is a key player. Pakistan is the country that will make the difference.”

-Looking further ahead, Pakistani officials are preparing to pitch projects before the “Friends” group in five key areas: development, energy, institution-building, security, and trade and finance.

-Officials here argue the world is morally obliged to bail it out because of the losses it is suffering as a front-line state against international terrorism.

“We want help,” Qureshi said. “What we do not want is intrusion or micromanagement.”

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

i don’t completely agree with Ahmed Rashid.
What extra Taliban will do that Pakistan has not done before or is not doing currently?
Covert war, Terrorism, Kargil, Mumbai and what not. In fact it could be good for India if world takes out N-weapon out of Pakistan under Taliban.

Secondly i think of Indian Taliban as a hollow threat. Some Muslims in India are already polarized by IM. They will change camp and go with Taliban. For India its just a change of name from IM to Taliban. Fortunately majority of Muslim are still liberal and by choice. How Taliban next door is going to influence them? In fact looking at the wretched condition of Pakis liberal muslims could become more resolute. Pak doesn’t have self correcting mechanism in the form of other communities. But in India muslims are living along with many other communities and that creates a balance.

Posted by chirkut | Report as abusive

Chirkut,

Indian Taliban can never happen. The pre-condition for Taliban formation is the requirement of 99.99% Sunni Muslims in a region. India does not have any. And such a Taliban will have face the Indian military. In the case of Pakistan, Taliban has its tentacles deep inside their intelligence and military establishments. Taliban cannot sprout in a democratic set up. It needs utter backwardness. This is typically possible in a place that is in rubble where bombs have hit the ground more than foot steps. What Rashid was mentioning was that if Taliban takes over Pakistan (not only by physical means, but also the minds of the people), then it will not hesitate using nukes or anything to make its point and it does not care for international opinions. This is highly unlikely. Many Pakistani “brothers” would have died before Taliban really takes over the nerve center of Pakistan.

Wait until Iran makes its nukes. Then the real fun will begin. Taliban has been hard on Shias. Iran is keeping quiet because Pakistan has the nukes. So wait for them to build up some nukes. There is a 50% chance that they will go head on with Sunni Muslim dominated Pakistan (or Talibanistan). They all can go to heaven together. The other 50% chance is for Israel.

There is no need to make any efforts from our side. Just allow things to happen. Your wish will be granted and you can rest easy after that.

So we agree that Indian Taliban is a weak hypothesis.

I also agree that when Iran will develop N-weapon things will change dramatically. Iran is not just furious with Pakistan because of treatment of Shias inside pakistan & Afghanistan but has also faced terrorist attacks inside its territory. A N-armed Iran will have three scores to settle 1) Israel 2) Saudi Arabia 3) Pakistan. Though i am not sure of the order. However I am still struggling to make sense of Iran’s involvement in IPI (Iran-Pakistan-India) project.

Posted by chirkut | Report as abusive

Mauryan / Chirkut

—The question still remains – Who’s interested in dragging India into a direct confrontation with Al-Queda / Taliban (spl.Afghan), what could be their ulterior motive for using these Rashid types to spread such horrifying stories & for what sly purpose…

Posted by anup | Report as abusive

@Wait until Iran makes its nukes. Then the real fun will begin. Taliban has been hard on Shias. Iran is keeping quiet because Pakistan has the nukes. So wait for them to build up some nukes. There is a 50% chance that they will go head on with Sunni Muslim dominated Pakistan (or Talibanistan). They all can go to heaven together. The other 50% chance is for Israel.:
- Posted by Mauryan

—Indian & Pakistani bloggers:
Shia/Sunni divide—I thought Islam has no caste system, and that Muslims are bonded by religion above nationality–which many peraceful Muslims will agree to. But clearly there is a caste system (Shia/Sunni and ….) and such that they kill each other despite sharing the religion. Was it all talk then what some Pakistani bloggers have been saying? Or is it that those who do such “physical and idealogical violence” acts do are “not real muslims”. That would place too many issues expalined by “not real Muslims”. then how many are “real muslims”. This is academic disussion.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

@Pak doesn’t have self correcting mechanism in the form of other communities. But in India muslims are living along with many other communities and that creates a balance.”
- Posted by chirkut

–”self correcting mechanism”–well said. A community living in two different environments will be entirely different. In India, diversity makes it binding on the communities to live in co-existance for survival and progress. This is helped by the law and the constitution that aids this so well. This diversty will not work in Hindu Republic of India. In my understanding in India too, if Muslims/sikhs/Hindus/Christisans/Paris/… etc are living in pockets, it is less helpful than if they live next door to each other. I have experienced this as the major factor between two different communities.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Rajeev asks: “then how many are “real muslims”.”

TALIBAN.

What matters is the outcome. Peaceful Islam is only in the book. Real Islam is in its followers. And it is getting worse by the day.

Rajeev writes: “this diversity will not work in Hindu Republic of India.”

Hindu India will never happen. It is too big for any specific ideology to take over the country, especially in today’s world. India has gone past that threshold. There are other Indias as well – Hindi India, Poor India etc where there are different kinds of majority. Diversity is strength. E Pluribus Unum.

Anup writes: “what could be their ulterior motive for using these Rashid types to spread such horrifying stories & for what sly purpose…”

Anup,

Rashid is a very sensible and rational writer. Please do not conclude about him by this one reference. He is highly respected in international circles. He is similar to MJ Akbar or Kuldeep Nayyar. If you read his books, you will never see any bias. He has been campaigning hard with the Americans about the festering of ISI and Pak military’s nefarious activities. He has worked hard with UN to bring a peaceful government in Afghanistan. Lunatics like Umair might call him a RAW agent. Read his book, “Descent into chaos,” if you can.

Rajeev writes: “this diversity will not work in Hindu Republic of India.”

“Hindu India will never happen. It is too big for any specific ideology to take over the country, especially in today’s world.”
-Mauryan writes

–I agree. “Hindu Republic of India” (HRI) was my way of equating this with Islamic republics. Co-existance and secularism in Inddia has been practiced since ages. Post-1947 India formally became democratic/secular, but this comes naturally. In India, religion-based nationalism is just not possible for n#of reasons. Democratic/seculaism is the way to go.

New words such as “Indian Taliban” are fancy names often used by authors. mostly to attract attention. This one is fictional in nature.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Mauryan

—Personally i hold MJ Akbar in high esteem but he’s a rare case, the same couldn’t be said of the rest of the breed, i’m not familiar with Rashid but as given to understand by you, then i believe that although he understands that if sanity is to be restored in Pakistan, then the only way is for Pakistan to cut loose from it’s past shackles of hatred & viciousness against India & take a great constructive leap of peaceful co-existence & amicable co-operation, but since he has no hope of such a ridiculous transcendental turn of event taking place, he in his anxiety is surreptitiously trying to appeal to the Indian’s sensibility, as he perceives it to be Pakistan’s only hope of survival.

Posted by anup | Report as abusive

Islam doesnt have a caste system, please learn. islam it could be stated have two major sects, Sunni and Shiite. While overwhelming muslim nations, Indonesia, Malaysia, Pakistan, Indian muslims, Gulf states, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Arab world are Sunni Muslims.
Shiites are concentrated in Iran(almost 100% Shiite and their power base) Shia are in Pak-Afghanistan-India and a percentage in Lebanon (Hezbollah is a Shia millitant organization). Syrians have Shia population so do Bahrain, so Shias are concentrated. Iran, Hezbollah/Lebanon are core enemies of Iran and share this with All other muslims(Sunnis). Shia and Sunni are actually equal i society, its only difference in ideology of the two sects.
On Iran, Pakistan and Iran have understanding on gas project due to economic interests. Iranian FM Kamal Kharazi visited Pakistan the first day after nuclear tests by Pakistan to congratulate. Pakistan allegedly helped to some degree Irans nukes. The enmity with Israel is shared, Iran president Ahmedinejad has visited King Abdullah and Iran-Saudi relations are vastly improved. US wants to begin diplomatic relations with Iran also.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Iran, Hezbollah/Lebanon are core enemies of Israel (correction)

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Anup writes: “since he (Rashid) has no hope of such a ridiculous transcendental turn of event taking place, he in his anxiety is surreptitiously trying to appeal to the Indian’s sensibility, as he perceives it to be Pakistan’s only hope of survival.”

Rashid is living in house that is burning in flames. He looks at his neighbor’s compound and sees a wedding celebration going on. Everyone seems happy. Even if he is a good hearted man, there will always be an element of sadness in him about his house not being the way his neighbor’s is. He might lament from that feeling that his house is in fire and there is a strong possibility that the flame can spread to the neighbor if he does not take his attention off this wedding party and acknowledge him. But Rashid is a good man. There are some very sensible people in the Islamic world. They get shouted down by the fanatics so much that no one realizes their presence. Check out the website of Irshad Manji. I have read her books and she makes a lot of sense. And she has death threats in many Islamic nations. If you get a chance to read Rashid’s book from the library or bookstore, do not hesitate to read it. It gives the feeling as though a non-Pakistani wrote it. There are no emotions that cloud one’s judgment. He writes exactly what went wrong since the Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan and how ignorant the Americans have been until now. It is their ignorance that the ISI and the Pakistani establishment has capitalized until now. For a change the Americans have an intelligent President who wants facts and acts on data.

There are interesting things in Rashid’s book:

1. George Bush did not know who Musharraf was when he took over as President.
2. He did not know who Taliban were. He thought they were a high school foot ball team in Texas.
3. When 9/11 happened, the Americans realized how little they knew about how to launch a counter offensive.
4. The Bush team (Armitage, Rumsfeld,Cheeny) tried its best to link Saddam Hussein to the 9/11 event and tried to make a plan of attacking Iraq and Afghanistan simultaneously.
5. Close to 1000 Pakistani military personnel were air lifted from Kunduz by Pakistani air force planes after Taliban fell. American general Tommy Frank refused to allow American troops there. So many Arab, Central Asian and Pakistani militants were picked up and transferred to safety as well.

And a lot more. This book is a complete revelation.

I agree with Umair, Shia, Ahmedia and Sunni are sects in Islam and this system is much worse than our caste system.

Shia and Sunnis consider each other as heretics and since Islma approves/exhorts death to heretics, both of them are on each other’s neck.

That is why i am surprised how Iran is working with Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.

For information to Umair, there are a few Shias in (North eastern?)Saudi Arabia also. Needless to say Sunnis prosecute them there as well.

Posted by chirkut | Report as abusive

@Islam doesnt have a caste system, please learn. islam it could be stated have two major sects, Sunni and Shiite.
–Umair

—There is lot between the lines “Major sect”. How about minor an subsects. Little misleading since there are a lots and lots of sects/subsects/branches.

Partial list of these divisions is:
Shia/Sunni/Wahhabis/salafi/Sufi/Kharijit es/Bahaiism/
Zaidi/Ghulat/Twelver/Ismaili/Ahmadiyya ……..

It is anybody’s guess tolerant they are to each other.

–happens in all religions. Point is not to point fingers at others as a rule.
-Call it Sects/casts/Denominations…..
“What’s in a name? That which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet.”

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Umair writes: “Islam doesnt have a caste system, please learn. islam it could be stated have two major sects, Sunni and Shiite”

Why did Iraq and Iran fight a ten year old war? Why is the Taliban blowing up Shiite mosques and killings Shias?

The degree of hatred between Sunnis and Shias is venomous. Anyway, every religion, sect, culture has groups that hate each other. People divide on some reason and fight each other, which is unfortunate.

I think ethnicity and nationality has a much stronger influence on people than religion. People have been Arabs and Persians before Islam itself came into existence. And the animosity between the Arabs, Persians and Turks (or Byzantine empire) goes back to centuries before Islam arrived.

What Islam needs to today is a new sect, similar to Martin Luther’s Protestant sect that did away with Roman Catholic religion altogether. May be a new Islamic sect based on peace and equality to women, devoid of Arab tribal customs needs to come from the moderate ones. Radical Islam will self destruct in the bargain. This is the only way I see Muslims being accepted with respect in other societies.

Let’s be clear here people, you can bash the hindu caste system, but with the caste system, sure there is social inequity at times, and too much at times, but never do you see the level of human depravity, violence, hatred, bloodshed and eternal deep hatred, dehumanization, demonization, religious and racist supremacy and hatred towards Jews propagated by some sects of Islam.

The most peaceful sections in my opinion are the Sufi, Ahmedia, and Ismaili’s. I rarely have seen a world of hatred or violence against muslims or non-muslims uttered from the mouths of the followers of these particular sects of Islam. It is also no wonder that they thrive no matter which country they live in.

In my opinion, they are the leaders of a truer, moderate, gentler Islam which can live with other peoples in peace, regardless of their religion.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

Umair often rants about the caste system. Well there is one in Pakistan, it is the poor, who the Taliban are exploiting. We can argue labels here, but the effect is the same.

Whether you label it caste or socio-economic inequity, the result is the same, the poor are being used by the Taliban.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

Sikhs pay Rs 20 million in Jizia to Pak Taliban

Islamabad, April 16: Members of Pakistan’s minority Sikh community living in the restive Aurakzai tribal region have paid Rs 20 million as “tax” to the Taliban after militants forcibly occupied some of their homes and kidnapped a Sikh leader.The Taliban had demanded Rs 50 million as ‘Jizia’ – a tax levied on non-Muslims living under Islamic rule – but the militants finally settled for Rs 20 million. After the amount was paid yesterday, the militants vacated the homes they had taken over and released Sikh leader Saiwang Singh, officials in the tribal region near the northwestern city of Peshawar were quoted as saying by the Daily Times newspaper. The officials said the Taliban had announced that the Sikhs were now free to live anywhere in Aurzakzai Agency. The militants also announced they would protect the community, saying that no one would harm them after they had paid Jizia. Sikhs who had left the area would now return to their homes and resume their business, the officials said.The militants had occupied at least 10 homes of Sikhs in Qasimkhel village on Tuesday. About 35 Sikh families have been living in Qasimkhel for many years. The Taliban demand for Jizia was resolved at a jirga or council held yesterday through the efforts of local tribal elders. The militants had said the Sikhs should pay Jizia in accordance with Shariah or Islamic law.

For three or four centuries the U.S. has struggled with race and slavery. Our prisons are a form of institutionalized racism. Capital flees areas inhabited by largely Blacks, Hispanics and native Americans. Look at Detroit or Cleveland. Health care by world standards is woefully inadequate in the U.S.. By comparison disparities in infant mortality, life expectancy and morbididy between Blacks and Whites completes this national shame.

As our strides towards justice and equality have been long and arduous, we should have equally low expectation of other nations to make similar change. Ultimately a society will exercise self determination. Foreign powers have no right and traverse at their own peril when they interfere in the affairs of other nations. History is replete with examples. The 20th century is education enough.

A nation cannot effectively outlaw closely held beliefs (no matter how virtuous or depraved) as the law does not rule the heart. The people will resist, even in the face of brutal repression. Absent a serious and honest discussion of actions and consequences by all parties and a commitment to change tempered by tolerance, enmity will be rife thus sowing the seeds of conflict. I accept this as an axiom. My nation has not ascribed to such lofty goals. We simply shroud our desire for economic advantage as a quest for peace, human rights and democracy. As such we receive little if any consideration from our world neighbors and will continue to reap that harvest.

Posted by Anubis | Report as abusive

Anubis writes: “Ultimately a society will exercise self determination. Foreign powers have no right and traverse at their own peril when they interfere in the affairs of other nations.”

You are forgetting the fact that self determination and realization of wrong doing, unfairness etc are the result of improved quality of life, education and better social development. Only then changes begin to happen from within. Countries are dependent on each other for vital resources. This brings conflicts due to various reasons – political or ideological differences. So some nations force their way in, in order to have access to those resources. And this brings in interference in the internal matters of many countries since domestic issues can become contrary to the interests of the powerful nations. And the vicious cycle of geo-politics happens. Countries which will not talk to each other on one ideological principle will go together to fight some other ideology. Such lack of principles always bring in a clash of civilizations and unnecessary drain of energy and life. There are always winners and losers in these interactions. That is the way the real world is.

What does this have to do with cruel caste system in India??!

The ISI is keeping contacts with the Taliban for the day when the US leaves. I don’t see a problem with that.

Strategic Ali writes: “The ISI is keeping contacts with the Taliban for the day when the US leaves. I don’t see a problem with that”

That is one reason why the US will not leave from your backyard soon. They already know what your ISI is up to and will begin to force them to cleanse themselves of the Taliban elements. And they intend doing something about the Taliban itself. So when your great grand children are ready for school, you will get a clear picture on when they will leave. They generally do not leave hot spots. They leave their soldiers behind – South Korea, Saudi Arabia, Europe etc.. They now know that Pakistan and Afghanistan are hot spots and they are sitting close to the oil fields in Central Asia and too close to China. And they will now try to protect their business interests in India. They are not going to leave anytime soon. So rest in peace.

@all Bloggers,

If Pakistan wants to talibanize, maybe we should let it.

If it does, the superpowers and even India will not need any permission or UN consensus to thwart any threats. Proactively, all sorts of things can be accomplished with regards to reshaping the region and denuclearizing Pakistan.

The Taliban will be so busy killing average Pakistani’s and the Punjabi army, the world does not need to do much, except sit back and let it happen, let the chips fall where they may.

Maybe we should just all walk away and let Pakistan Talibanize. Then plans can be made accordingly to Balkanize and disarm a Talibanized Pakistan, which in turmoil, chaos and lack of a cohesive government will be much easier to clean up, than the current form which Pakistan is in.

A whole range of pre-emptive options become available to all the stake holder countries if we let it Talibanize.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

GW,

I agree with you about letting Pakistan fester with its wounds. It does not matter to India’s interests. What we need to do is to be alert and cautious in order to minimize any cinders falling from their backyard. And if we avoid any overtures for war, we’ll do fine. They wanted an Islamic state and they are going to get the most perfect Islamic nation that will take them to the glory days of their prophet.

There is an interesting discussion in NY Times about Pakistan and Taliban.

http://roomfordebate.blogs.nytimes.com/2 009/04/14/south-asias-taliban-problem/in dex.html?ref=asia

@Mauryan,

The Taliban are easy to take down, give them alcohol and women, and video tape them. Release the videos on the internet with everyone’s favourite Mullah or Sheikh, doing the nasty with a bunch of women. No one will follow them. Dirty tactics, rather than military ones need to be employed to morally deface the Taliban. A war of propaganda needs to be started by Pakistan against the Taliban. We have yet to see this.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

GW writes: “The Taliban are easy to take down, give them alcohol and women, and video tape them. ”

They like boys. They do not get excited by women.

No.As simple as That!
The ISI is another name of the Taliban.The interests of the individuals is much greater than the interests of the country.These myopic Military,punjabi elite havent realised still that they have been sending Pakistan into this Boghole. What I dont understand is the idea that after the US leaves Afghanistan,Pakistan would have a be friendly government there? Why do we need it?Just seal the border and see what Happens. No matter who is in power in Afghanistan for pakistan it wont matter.
Lets not take sides, we should mind our business and improve life here.The society in Pakistan is so fragmented that I feel its going to be worse than the civil war in Lebanon in the 70′s.It’s better the military minds its business otherwise,I think the best solution would be to balkanize Pakistan!
We,the Karachiites and Sindhis,dont want Nuclear weapons nor an army nor Taliban? We just want to live a better life.ISI and its generals should rot in Hell!
If I get the chance to be Pakistan’s army chief or President I would publicly execute all these top *astards and give the country try a new slate.

Posted by Suleman Maniya,Goteborg,Sweden | Report as abusive

Most countries founded on ideology have found it hard to keep the ideology loved by their people and have resorted to repression and brutality to keep the ideology in power. And they collapsed in the bargain. Soviet Union, North Korea etc are prime examples. One needs a lot of money to keep the people happy. This way they will turn a blind eye to those in power and allow them to keep what they want. China is an example. Smaller countries with not much natural resources failed miserably when ideology was used to carve them out. In such countries the first ones to be eliminated are the intellectuals, educated, professionals etc. Religion can never run governments in modern day world. Religion only provides solace when people need it. People who fought for a nation for Muslims using violence are slowly beginning to learn that lesson in Pakistan. Religion did not make their lives better than others. What should have been confined to the mosques and homes, began to direct traffic on the streets. And all traffic has turned into chaos. Everything has a realm in which it works. It cannot be used in the wrong areas. It will only bring emptiness and dejection at the end.

this is just another conspiracy gainst pakistan that ISI is vng ties with taliban and that pakistan,s ISI is still supporting the talibans. how about coming up with some solid reasons that y wud ISI support taliban wen the government is on war with the talibans and lets not forget talibans are a threat not only to america but to many others including Pakistan so y wud the intelligence agency of pakistan damage itself and its country. there are many unanswered questions……so lets not jump to any conclusions.

Posted by zaresh | Report as abusive

@Mauryan

The US will leave tomorrow if Osama Bin Laden and Zawahiri can be found today. US does not change, when their objective in Afghanistan was achieved in 1989, they left quickly. They will do the same when OBL is caught, and say that Taliban are a domestic problem of the region.

I find the views of Indians about Islam and Pakistan not only inaccurate, but full of hatred themselves.

Amir Ali,
The US will leave tomorrow if Osama Bin Laden and Zawahiri can be found today—–

They will continue to give financial assistance, but try to reduce their own casualties. Im sure thats understandable.

@I find the views of Indians about Islam and Pakistan not only inaccurate, but full of hatred themselves.
- Posted by Aamir Ali to Mauryan
-Ali: Each and everytime you write “Indian”, rememeber it includes 13% of Muslims population and people of different religions. That makes India having Muslim population as large as Pakistan’s total population. So Islam is not foreign to non-Muslims and having Muslim friends is having just anyother friend; I have many. So who cares what your views are. About Pakistan, even sane Pakistanis justify India’s anger about Pakistan. This is nothing else-a single factor -the terrorism, that you love to throw inside India and India hates Pakistan for that. You justify the deeds of those terrorists in the name of Islam–misleading the youths—and that is the radical Islam Indians have problem with.

You have no idea about Muslims in India, no idea about the state of Kashmiris in India.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

@Rajeev

Having Muslim friends doesnt make you an expert on Islam and reading about Pakistan in newspapers doesn’t make you an expert on Pakistan either. The comments on this blog are full of vitriol against Muslims/Pakistanis, only shows the prejudice that Kashmiris/Muslims face in India.

Aamir Ali:
@Having Muslim friends doesnt make you an expert on Islam and reading about Pakistan in newspapers doesn’t make you an expert on Pakistan either.

Aamir Ali: But it gives me a definute advantage over you.

What do you think about this article?
http://dawntravelshow.com/dblog/2009/04/ 30/questions-about-burning/

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive