Pakistan, India and the election manifestos

April 15, 2009

The world’s largest democracy chooses a new government in an election beginning on Thursday, and given the fires burning next door in Pakistan and Afghanistan, the men and women who will rule New Delhi over the next five years will doubtless exert influence over the course of events.

Indeed, with the pain and anger over  the Mumbai attacks of November still raw, the mood could hardly be tougher against Pakistan. Even shorn of the campaign rhetoric, the positions of both the ruling Congress and the Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party on Pakistan begin from common ground. No dialogue with Islamabad until it “dismantles the infrastructure of terrorism”, both parties say in their manifestos.

Full texts of the documents of the two main parties are here and here.

New Delhi’s continued refusal to resume dialogue or indeed to expand other links such as trade has caught Pakistan between a rock and a hard place, according to this piece in 2point6billion.com, a website tracking developments mainly in China and India. While Islamabad has repeatedly called for resumption of dialogue since the attacks, Delhi has refused to comply until it is assured that Pakistan will prosecute all those involved in the planning and operations.

Delhi maintains that it holds information garnered from satellite, cellular and other communications devices captured at the scene that lead to specific individuals that Pakistan has as yet failed to apprehend. Islamabad denies the charge and says it is doing everything in its power to cooperate.

The result is that the noose has tightened around Pakistan, exacerbating its already dire financial situation. Trade between Pakistan and India, which had been growing and was forecast to hit US$10 billion by 2010, has dwindled to close to zero over the past few months, with Pakistan feeling the brunt of this economic demise, says the website. Islamabad has already had to apply for a US$7.6 billion loan from the IMF in February and garnered an additional US$2.8 billion in military aid from the Obama administration just two weeks ago. 

But is there a possibility that once India’s elections are out of the way, there might be a slight softening of positions? A new government will be under less pressure to be seen to be acting tough. Looking at the manifestos again, you do detect slight differences in the tone.

Here’s the BJP on Pakistan, true to its roots a touch more aggressive :

“”There can be no ‘comprehensive dialogue’ for peace unless Pakistan a) dismantles the terrorist infrastructure on territory under its control; b) actively engages in prosecuting terror elements and organisations; c) puts a permanent, verifiable end to its practice of using cross-border terrorism as an instrument of state policy; d) stops using the territory of third countries to launch terror attacks on India; and, e) hands over to India individuals wanted for committing crimes on Indian soil.”

The Congress on the other hand says dealing with “”terrorism aided and abetted from across our borders does not require a muscular foreign policy as advocated by the BJP.”"

Here is their plan:

“”But the Mumbai attacks have cast a long shadow on the on-going dialogue and engagement process. It is now entirely up to Pakistan to break the impasse by taking credible action against those responsible for the carnage in Mumbai. If it does so and dismantles the terrorist networks that operate from its soil, a Congress-led government will not be found wanting in its response. ”

Has the Congress, still the frontrunner in the election, left the door to dialogue slightly open?

Comments

1.Soviets surrendered to Mujahideen. 1989
2.Americans want to (‘talk to moderate Taliban’) surrender to Taliban. 2009
3.Pakistan Army surrenders to Taliban. 2009

What is the difference there, Pakistan Army is coward and Soviet and US Army is brave?

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Umair writes:
“1.Soviets surrendered to Mujahideen. 1989
2.Americans want to (’talk to moderate Taliban’) surrender to Taliban. 2009
3.Pakistan Army surrenders to Taliban. 2009

What is the difference there, Pakistan Army is coward and Soviet and US Army is brave?”

Soviets got defeated by the American involvement and backing of the Mujahideen effort. It was an American idea to use the Madrasas and fuel radical Islam, along with shoulder launched stinger missiles. Your mujahideen did not invent the stinger missiles. CIA helped the ISI a lot which you are not mentioning. Your military and the mujahideen became foot soldiers for the US. Without the US and its training, Afghanistan would have gone in a different direction. We are not that dumb to take your words at face value Umair. We can think for ourselves.

US wants to talk to moderate Taliban. In my opinion, moderate Taliban is your ISI. And they are talking to them already about giving up the mad obsession with India.

Pakistan army surrenders to Taliban, because your military has grown up relying too much on covert means of warfare where soldiers can hide in civilian uniforms, shoot at innocent people and hide amongst the crowd or run into hideouts. They have never won any war while in uniform. This is the known fact. If you want to provide proof of when your uniformed soldiers won anything, please provide it. You are yet to provide concrete proof for Indian embassies in Afghanistan causing damage to Pakistan. You promised to get back. Now you have quietly dropped it.

Pakistani military will surrender to Taliban in Islamabad. What the Taliban will do is to take the poor on their side by slaughtering feudal lords and distributing land to the peasants. When people switch sides, it will be easy to stage a Maoist revolution and take power. Those who can get out will get out before that.

Wake up Umair. Do not keep defending your point just to keep your dislike of India. Right now, that is not the priority for you. We can see what is coming towards you from a distance. You do not because you are in the middle of it.

 

Umair writes: “The US Army is fighting with the Taliban from last 8 years and have reached the same conclusion; unlike Iraq, Aghanistan’s rural insurgency is a devil’s game. The US will soon begin to reach out to ‘moderate Taliban’. This further strengthens Pakistan’s position. Pakistan started negotiating with Taliban from last couple of years and it has brought positive results.”

Here are the facts. The reasons why no progress was made in Afghanistan after defeating the Taliban are as follows:

1. Rumsfeld.
2. Dick Cheeny
3. US did not want to engage troops on the ground at the crucial time when the Taliban was driven out.
4. Encouraging war lordism. The CIA was given 1 billion dollars to do whatever it wanted. And the CIA gave millions of dollars to war lards like Dostum, Ismael Khan etc and Pashtun tribes, who pocketed everything and strengthened themselves.
5. Hamid Karzai’s government got no backing after a ceremonial Loya Jirga. Elected representatives were side lined by the US. Rumsfeld completely ignored international allies’ requests to expand security beyond Kabul. He did not like the idea of a trained Afghan military. He believed in leaving the “culture” of the land undisturbed and did not want to insert a western style government and military in Afghanistan.
6. Complete ignorance on what Pakistan was doing behind the back. Musharraf and his ISI completely hoodwinked the Americans, showing them what they wanted and were allowed to keep everything hidden.
7. US began to go after Iraq in 2003, which pushed Afghanistan into a distant background. All energy went into Iraq during a crucial period which the Taliban used effectively to regroup and re-arm.
8. US decided to confine its objectives to getting Al Qaeda leaders arrested or eliminated in Afghanistan and did not pursue the Taliban after that.

All these factors contributed to the failure of the mission. So Taliban is still there and has spread into Pakistan. In the past, Pakistan created the Taliban and put it in power in Afghanistan to get “strategic depth” against the Indians. Now Taliban is moving into Pakistan to give its “strategic depth” against the Americans.

US broke that strategic depth in Afghanistan. Now there is a new government in charge in the US and they mean business. They will break this strategic depth of the Taliban inside Pakistan, if that is the best option.

 

Umair writes: “Taliban advance another 10 KM towards Islamabad, distance left to reach Delhi= 808KM.”

You are still stuck in addition? How about subtraction? Ask your teacher in the Madrasa about more math.

Distance may be linear. But to traverse that distance is another thing. This is not a marathon run event where Taliban will reach Islamabad, have a break and continue towards Delhi.

Taliban if its really made of brainy planners, will first spend time taking over Pakistan’s key establishments by surrounding them. It will go after Punjabi heartland. That is the real Pakistan. The rest have no power to have any impact. The NY Times article is an eye opener. They are going to spend time eliminating feudal lords and rich land lords. Once they stage this Maoist “revolution” they will be in charge of Pakistan with its cadres filling up the ISI and the military. Others will simply be executed in a typical brutal fashion. Uniformed soldiers, as usual, will switch sides and become part of Taliban. The name Taliban will be replaced with some other fancy name – Islamic citizen of Pakistan or whatever. Now they would have achieved the needed strategic depth to get at American efforts inside Afghanistan.

This is when the US will turn against Pakistan. Unlike the NW regions of Pakistan, Punjab is a plain. It can be easy target if a war erupts. Do not under-estimate the Americans this time. There is a lot of ego at stake for them. They will not give up this time. And it does not sound well for Pakistan, considering what the Taliban is doing.

 

Mauryan
Good you are learning ,you sound more informed.
Pakistan reverse engineered the Stinger missiles and they are part of inventory of Pakistan Army as ANZA MK1 & ANZA MK2. Indian MiG jets were downed by the same ANZA missiles during Kargil 1999.

You Indians have a serious misperception that Pakistan Army has never won a conflcit. It stems from the East Pakistan war in 1971. Let it be clear Pakistan Armed forces have gone through radical change since then, with German/French submarines, F-16s and other advanced aircraft and Cobra Gunship helicopters & Main Battle Tanks. Followed by a missile and nuclear programme, and a rich combat history around the world in peacekeeping missions, Pakistan Defence is much solid.

Let me assure you one more thing Mauryan, there is not that much hatred in Pakistan against India. Its about your perception.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

@Pakistan kicked off from World cup hosting
- Posted by punjabiyaar

–World cup will go ahead in India, Bangladesh and SriLanka. If Paksianis let it sink properly and wake up next day and think with cool heads, it is not a small thing.
So Umair’s/other bloggers hypothesis : “No cricket in Pakistan–not cricket in anywhere in South Asia”–has been proven wrong.

—But ICC said PCB will be compensated. More money without work.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

With my interactions with Pakistanis on the web, it seems to me that they have resigned to the fact that the Taliban will take over Pakistan. It also seems that most of them seem to foolishly think that once in control, the Taliban will become moderate & mainstream, whereas, everything indicates (check the article below) that once in control, Taliban will prosecute moderate Pakistanis & impose their radical interpretation of Islam, all over Pakistan.
Also it seems, that most Pakistanis are desperately hoping & praying that once Taliban & the extremists take over Pakistan, they set their eyes on India & create havoc there, just like they’ve done in Pakistan.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcclatchy/200904 16/wl_mcclatchy/3214054

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive
 

Mauryan
what do you think you are after reading any NY Times article or column ? some kind of self proclaimed fortune teller?
So the Taliban will come to Islamabad, line up the Army selection and recruitment Centre, clear the preliminary tests and qualify te ISSB and will be inducted as ISI officers? dont be ridiculous.

You are still stuck with the Maoists, these are a different lot. Also, tell you what a huge majority of officers and men in Pakistan Armed Forces are pushtun, the Air Officer Command, Northern Air Command located in Peshawar, PAF has its rear-Air HQ in Peshawar. The Taliban are also mostly Pashtun, thats why Pakistan has said they are an ethnic group. Some people are calling them animals.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

@1.Soviets surrendered to Mujahideen. 1989
2.Americans want to (’talk to moderate Taliban’) surrender to Taliban. 2009
3.Pakistan Army surrenders to Taliban. 2009
What is the difference there, Pakistan Army is coward and Soviet and US Army is brave?
- Posted by Umair

—There is one big difference. Soviets fought and lost. Americans fought and thought they have a trustworthy ally in Pakistan–not so obviously–so US is thinking along those lines—can hardly be called “surrender” even after giving them all the discredit–since Americans are here.

BUT Pakistan is brilliant–did not fight at all–even after giving all the credit to poor Paki soldier’s who fight with whatever their worth and army double crossing policy. Pakistan is the worst.

Umair: If you take all the credit for Soviet defeat-as you always have been doing—then you got to take all the discredit for US failure. Else, give an alternative other than bringing Taliban into the national mainstream.
Where are Misters Gilani/Zardari/Kayani/Pasha—not hearing enough these days. Saving energy for India?

@Obama is reaping what earlier presidents have sown.
–Many Pakistanis will only partially agree with you. Along with US, Pakistanis are reaping it each day–both innocents and sometimes Pakistani Army.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

Umair writes: “Let it be clear Pakistan Armed forces have gone through radical change since then, with German/French submarines, F-16s and other advanced aircraft and Cobra Gunship helicopters & Main Battle Tanks. Followed by a missile and nuclear programme, and a rich combat history around the world in peacekeeping missions, Pakistan Defence is much solid.”

Tell me which war your uniformed soldiers won. I am not asking for your military’s inventory. Other militaries have upgraded correspondingly.

“Let me assure you one more thing Mauryan, there is not that much hatred in Pakistan against India. Its about your perception.”

Just in this blog, in one of your replies you have clearly mentioned about South Punjab where the hatred for India is enormous and how the Taliban will be using them. I cannot quantify hatred. But we all know it is there. That is why India keeps getting attacked through periodic insurgency. Kashmir is a good excuse to achieve that.

 

Umair writes: “what do you think you are after reading any NY Times article or column ? some kind of self proclaimed fortune teller? So the Taliban will come to Islamabad, line up the Army selection and recruitment Centre, clear the preliminary tests and qualify te ISSB and will be inducted as ISI officers? dont be ridiculous.”

We can clearly tell that you are an idiot, based on what you write. So I do not expect you to learn anything. But we are intelligent enough to look at various scenarios and predict what could happen. One way or the other, the future for your golden country does not look good. This is not what we wish for you. But it is headed that way.

“You are still stuck with the Maoists, these are a different lot. Also, tell you what a huge majority of officers and men in Pakistan Armed Forces are pushtun, the Air Officer Command, Northern Air Command located in Peshawar, PAF has its rear-Air HQ in Peshawar. The Taliban are also mostly Pashtun, thats why Pakistan has said they are an ethnic group. Some people are calling them animals.”

If your military is made up of Pashtuns, it will be easy for them to merge with the Taliban. They already are. It is very difficult to see the ISI separately from the Taliban now-a-days. They are animals. There is no doubt.

Wish you good luck Umair. You need lot of it. But be rest assured. It will take sometime for the Taliban to wrap itself around the rest of Pakistan and crush it. It needs to do this to survive the American onslaught. If it gets any closer to taking complete control of your country, trust me, the US will dismantle your nation to free it from Taliban. There is a danger of nuclear weapons going into the wrong hands. No one will be talking about it. They will go after it right away. And Pakistan as we know of today, may not exist.

 

Mauryan
Dont get me wrong, the South of Punjab exists of relatively poor cities and is leess richer compared to Urban Lahore or Sialkot where there are sports good factories, Gujranwala electrical appliances and Faislabad where the textile industry is located.
I didnt mean to say that people of South Punjab are holding grenades in their hands ready to cross the border into India. I meant that they are relatively less rich, depend on agriculture. So consequently they are vulnerable to exploitation. Lets raise their life standard so they look forward to a bright future and shun extremism.
I still owe you Baluchistan links of any Indian involvement to destablize it.

Which war has Pakistan Army won?
Answer: Read an independent analysis of 1948 Kashmir war and 1965 war.
Read about Zarb-e-Momin military exercise 1989.
Read about Siachin Glacier combat theatre.
Read about Kargil 1999.
Read about 2001-02 border stand-off.

these were all major conflicts between the countries, Pakistan went on offensives and defenses. Some times initiating the conflicts. If not won, Pakistan certainly has the capability to launch and cripple India severely in any military conflcit.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

@Mauryan
Good you are learning ,you sound more informed.
Pakistan reverse engineered the Stinger missiles and they are part of inventory of Pakistan Army as ANZA MK1 & ANZA MK2. Indian MiG jets were downed by the same ANZA missiles during Kargil 1999.
-by Umair

—This is 100th time copy/paste/needless/came from nowhere/distraction material/hardly any response to any of the posts/back to wasting energy over India to save Taliban brothers……need not be addressed in the form of counting Indian arsenal.

@You Indians have a serious misperception that Pakistan Army has never won a conflcit. It stems from the East Pakistan war in 1971.
–In addition 1965–Pakis “ruling skies” (..lol) and Indian Jawans rulingthe ground in Pakistan/the outskirts of Lahore and the remaining wars including kicking Pakis Army/LeT coalition in Kargil. Working on Paki Army/Taliban coalition???????

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

Mauryan
Now suddenly you are intelligent and I am a stupid?
Just go back previous page and you stated that whole game has multiple players and multiple interests, that it is confusing and will be interesting how things go in future.
No suddenly you are Mr. know-it-all?
Try to educate yourself before you state anything that demonstrate your lack of understanding of the world around you.
Dont call me a millitant sympathizer, we dont support any millitants in Paksitan at all. And I told you there is no Taliban threat ‘taking over’ Pakistan as you are suggesting.

Do you know how to play chess, you need to plan every move in advance and trap your opponent.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Pakistani/Indian blogger:
Umair:
Much ink has been spilled over Taliban moving towards Islmabad, which if the reports are OK, is true. I am failing to understand how Taliban is moving–vehicles etc—in 1000s or 100s or what–how it is allowed to move forward. obviously there is security 50-100Km around Islamabad. Does security let these gun carrying, clearly labeled (?) bunch of individuals go past them. Is there a frustration in soldiers or a smile on their face. You live in Islamabad, right? I assume you must have seen this show or is it unsafe. Where are they headed towards–some tents, hotels or barracks. What is the plan behind allowing smooth movement? You said #s are few–how many are these? Is govt talking to them ?

Above all, is Pakistan conducting their marriage with Punjabi terrorists and send them into POK for honeymoon?

Is it some old dirty tactic of Pakistan of using these guys against India, especially during these election times.

This has finally demonstrated that if Pakis cannot handle the terrorists which hurt Paki innocents, forget about expecting them about terrorists which hurt India.

But I agree with Umair that Taliban are not animals. Animals are better they have a reason to attack unlike here.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

Rajeev I live in Rawalpindi and go to Islamabad every day for work 25 KM distance, I travel on the roads, it is generally safer. Only the last week for the first time the traffic right in front of the road of ISI HQ in Islamabad has been routed and that front area is blocked for security reasons. The diplomatic compunds and 5 star hotels are well guarded as well as rest of the city. Rawalpindi itself is home to Army HQ and is already a military garrison city. Taliban cant even think of coming near Pindi/Isloo as we call these twin cities with affection.
However, security generally is good. Islambad has seen some attacks recently, not because of security is poor but bcoz some times terrorists manage to sneak in and also its almost impossible to stop a suicicde bomber.

Its not like Taliban moving in their cars, its the areas far away from islamabad and located in frontier province where there is some Taliban gaining influence. But rest assured, security forces are taking them on. And Pakistan is so far in control of the situation. I agree there is a serious threat to Pkaistan. But I am confident proper steps are being taken to address and eliminate the threat.
Also, there are no nefarious plans against India or to sabotage elections there or create problem in LOC or Kashmir. Everything is ok.

And where do you live Rajeev?

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

“Which war has Pakistan Army won?”

“Read an independent analysis of 1948 Kashmir war and 1965 war.”

1948, Pakistan captured all of the unprotected Kashmir, when India steps in Pakis had to flee, had not Nehru idiot enough to go UN, all of the Kashmir would be with India.

1965, war Pakistan captured some parts of India, India also captured some parts. Same mistake again and UN interferred

“Read about Zarb-e-Momin military exercise 1989.”

What did it achieve ?

“Read about Siachin Glacier combat theatre.”

Indians hold it till date and Pakis did biggest intelligence blunder, ordered Arctic gear from the supplier who used to supply gear to Indian.

“Read about Kargil 1999.”

Yeah bravest Islamic army denied to accept bodies, saying they were not their soldiers. India regained everything back.

“Read about 2001-02 border stand-off.”

Pakis wanted to start the war so that Taliban can regain in Afghanistan, Americans and Indians sensed it and did not attack, what does it has to do with the bravery of Pakis ?

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive
 

Umair:

– But why Taliban are they moving in Islamabad’s direction, their motive? I see no plan.

–Everything is not OK Umair. Newspapers in Pakistan are full of concern.
I saw a video clip longtime ago (before 26/11), a Taliban guy saying that they can control Pakistan whenever they want. I thought he is kidding. Obviously not. We know little about their capabilities. There is not a collapse of Pak, but things wrt Taliban have moved faster than anyone’s guess. Unless you know what your guys are doing to prevent this, this is a huge problem. I am so puzzled with Pakistan. I am mean they are shooting your people dead in NWFP as they will.

See this recent execution:—in NWFP I guess.
“Taliban execute man, woman in Hangu”
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn -content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/nwfp  /taliban-execute-man-woman-in+hangu–szh

–But clearly Taliban/Punjabi Terrorist groups will be allowed to collaborate and it is understandable what their projects are.

–Quote from an article in Dawn “Fighting back is difficult because we have never developed a consensus on an alternative. Jinnah’s Pakistan versus Ziaul Haq’s Pakistan – having never quite figured out what we want to be, we now face the very possibility that the Taliban may decide for us.”

@And where do you live Rajeev?
Currently, I live close to Michigan USA.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

Umair,
I meant to say:
Currently, I live close to Detroit, Michigan USA.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

Rajeev
Actually its not as if Taliban are literally moving towards Islamabad. Its just something symbolic people associate with the security problem. The areas where the Taliban are creating a law and order situation are about 60-100 KM far from the capital. But Islamabad is not facing any danger as if it is going to fall.
Everybody outside Pakistan is very concerned about Pakistan. Pakistan has its problems like many other countries, but still we will overcome them.

Just read this article:
Pakistan, & the Myth of Islamic Terrorism by Rakesh Saxena

http://www.odidia.com/index.php?page=pak istan-the-myth-of-islamic-terrorism

You will know what is the real problem. Its only the lack of opportunity and underdevelopment, poverty that is causing the problem. Once you read it let your views be known.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

PAKISTAN & THE MYTH OF ISLAMIC TERRORISM
by Rakesh Saxena

An excellent article for someone who wants to grasp whats the real problem and why Taliban elements are gaining advantage of the situation. It shows the problem is solveable.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

No possibility of Talibanisation in Pakistan: PTI
http://www.geo.tv/4-17-2009/40073.htm

This is what former Cricket Captain turned politician Imran Khan said.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Umair writes:
“Which war has Pakistan Army won?
Answer: Read an independent analysis of 1948 Kashmir war and 1965 war.
Read about Zarb-e-Momin military exercise 1989.
Read about Siachin Glacier combat theatre.
Read about Kargil 1999.
Read about 2001-02 border stand-off. ”

1948 Kashmir war:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Pakist ani_War_of_1947#Operation_Easy.3B_Punch_ link-up

I do not see any reference to Indian general signing the declaration of defeat. Pakistani websites claim India begged for a ceasefire. But that is not a neutral source of info. I also looked at Indian sites. Wikipedia is relatively neutral. India captured two thirds of Kashmir. Pakistan held one third. Tell me which number is bigger.

1965 war: Here is Wikipedia reference again:

“The Indian army was in possession of 710 mile² (1,840 km²) of Pakistani territory and the Pakistan army held 210 mile² (545 km²) of Indian territory. The territory occupied by India was mainly in the fertile Sialkot, Lahore and Kashmir sectors,[17] while Pakistani land gains were primarily in deserts opposite Sindh and in Chumb, in the northern sector.[18]”

Tell me which area is more.

Zarb e Momin: This was not a war, but a simple military exercise.

Siachien Glacier: Wikipedia reference again.
“The expeditions are also meant to show to the international audience that Indian troops hold “almost all dominating heights” on the important Saltoro Ridge and, to show that Pakistani troops are not within 15 miles (24 km) of the 43.5-mile (70 km) Siachen Glacier”

India holds the advantage at Siachien currently. India can bleed longer than Pakistan.

Kargil War: Wikipedia again.

“By the end of the war, India had resumed control of all territory south and east of the Line of Control, as was established in July 1972 as per the Shimla Accord.”

This means India won this war. Where did Pakistani military win?

Border stand offs do not count as war victories.

In all, Umair, there is not an iota of information to show that Pakistan won any of these wars. So kindly accept the truth. You asked me to refer to independent sources and I did. Now it is your turn. Provide clear proof from respected international references that Pakistani military defeated Indian forces in any war.

Also I am still waiting for your proof (non Pakistani reference) about Indian embassy activities from Afghanistan that have sabotaged Pakistan.

 

Umair writes: “Taliban cant even think of coming near Pindi/Isloo as we call these twin cities with affection.”

The article that appears in The Guardian says otherwise:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/apr  /18/islamabad-war-islamic-militants

 

Here is something more to chew on. This appeared in a Pakistani news paper website.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp  ?page=20094\18\story_18-4-2009_pg1_12

 

Its only a handful who are desperate to disturb the peace in Pakistan, Islamabad is surely at the forefront and is resilient. We have to win and we will win InshAllah.
Pakistan Zindabad!

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 
 

Umair writes: “A quagmire of indecision”

Do you now agree that your country is in deep trouble?

You have gone silent on my references that showed your claims on Pak military victory over India as bogus.

You have quietly dropped on the promise to list the seven Indian embassies in Afghanistan. There are only two – in Jalalabad and in Kandahar.

You have also dropped the reference to destabilization activities emerging from Indian embassies in Afghanistan, that have caused problems for Pakistan. And I do not want a Pakistani reference. It has to be a neutral one.

I am not hopeful you will provide the necessary answers. Still let me ask you.

Do you agree that India is not the enemy? Or you still want to cling to the emotional stance that India is the enemy?

There is nothing wrong in coming forward to accept the reality Umair. If an ordinary citizen like you can be so ego-centric in your attitude towards India, how is it possible to change the attitude of an entire system? Somewhere the process has to begin. If every decision is made with countering India as the main goal, it will lead your country to nowhere. This is the obsession that has destroyed your country. Your leaders have squandered away all advantages and money by going mindless in teaching India a lesson. They have spent all their energy all these years focusing on non-constructive issues of distraction and have fallen on their backs. You as a citizen should question them. Do not fall for their brain washing propaganda. If India is such an evil Hindu country, it would not be recognized as an emerging economic power, sitting in the G20 meeting. It has made progress despite the odds. Acknowledge that and see what can be done from your side to destroy this myth of an evil Indian monster. There is none. Tell your leaders that.

 

Umair’s responses when he has none are typically:

-Zindabad pakistan
-Murdabad india
-Inshallah
-Inshallah Umma

Umair, Pakistan only lost all its wars against India, please do not vomit out anymore Pakistani propaganda, you just weaken and cheapen your words here. And now, the Taliban are going to make Pakistan surrender

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive
 

Quoting an excerpt for The Dawn editorial, written by a noted journalist Irfan Hussain:

“In some ways, we are holding a begging bowl in one hand, and a raised middle finger in the other. If we had a third hand, it would be holding a gun to our head.”

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive
 

Atleast most of the Indian political parties have a manifesto or publicize one!
The People Party,here in Pakistan, for 30 years has had a manifesto of Food,Clothing and Shelter and whenever it can come in Power which has been for over 15 years it has robbed people of that!!
The PML Nawaz( the Messiah!!) just makes me be so cynical.There slogan was Reduce Debt,Improve Country! What they did not tell us, when we contributed to this campaign was they were reducing their debt not of the country!!!
In pakistan, the media doesnt question the parties about their manifesto’s which is why we have a political system made up of individuals rather than institutions! Much to the Army’s liking!
The election Commision in Pakistan take their dictation from whoever is in power and the Supreme Court just looks the other side. So much for socalled judicial activism. It was done only to restore the Chief Justice, who wanted his perks restored??

Posted by Suleman Maniya,Goteborg,Sweden | Report as abusive
 

Whether India is an enemy or not is not clear, however India certainly is not a friend as yet.
Pakistan was used by the USA during the Soviet war, now the tide will turn. Taliban are not our problem, they were funded by the US to fight USSR. Let the US take care of Taliban, Pakistan is only concerned with protection of its own interests.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Suleman
Pakistan has changed a lot, I can see that you might not have been in touch with Pakistan for years. But let me tell you Benazir Bhutto before her death had brought up her party’s menifesto before the 2008 election, so did the PML(N). One thing needs to be understood, Pakistan was used by big powers like the US specially to furhter its regional interests. That way Pakistan was unable to build a strong economy.
Today we have to stand firm and united as Pakistanis doent matter from Islamabad like me or Karachiite like you. We are all Pakistanis and lets not give anyone the opportunity to exploit our weakness.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Global watcher
If Pakistan won all its war against india, than why is it that Pakistan still today is a challenge for India? Pakistan still today has nuclear weapons and 7th largest Army and ask your leaders what is the most immediate threat to India, they will tell you.
You guys come out of the superiority complex, in Kargill you were kicked. Again in 20022 border stand off you were not able to move an inch closer to the international border despite initiating the build up of forces. After Mumbai you guys went crying to the UN security council to have some organizations banned, still you never honour the UN resolutions on Kashmir.

I am not your history teacher to teach you Pakistan’s military victories over India. The history is there if you guys want to learn. If still you want to mess with us, we are here to teach you a lesson.
Also just remember , India still is officially enemy. no 1 so far.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

I think people like umair, they are paid by ISI/fundamentalist. Their job is spread confusion over internet. To spread fundamentalist propaganda.

I am sure he will get beating from his employer as he is failed in his job.

He is also the same like his other brethren terrorist. He is a cyber terrorist.

Posted by vineet | Report as abusive
 

Interacting with Pakistanis on the web, I can clearly see why Pakistan has become a ‘Failed State’. If, seemingly educated Pakistanis are so bigoted, delusional & misinformed, I can only imagine, what the scores of illiterate Pakistanis would be like. No wonder, that country is going down the gutter, in a rush!

It seems to me, that no matter how substantiated, verifiable & certifiable, are the facts presented to them, Pakistanis are just not interested in accepting the truth. They want to keep living in denial, in their own fictional land of fantasia, with their own grossly distorted version of history.

As per most Pakistanis: 1) India has never recognized Pakistan as an independent country. 2) India has always had imperialistic designs for Pakistan. 3) In all wars fought, India invaded Pakistan & the brave Pakistani army fought back Indian aggression & won all wars. 4) The break-up of Pakistan in 71 was planned by India. 5) India commits atrocities on it’s minorities. 6) India is economically worse than Pakistan. 7) There are hundreds of separatist movements going on in India. 8) India is planning to break-up Pakistan again & then invade it.
…and the list goes on & on….

Most Pakistanis never accept their own mistakes & faults & would rather just conveniently blame everything on others (US, India, Israel). Everything is a conspiracy against them to take over their land. They never accept the genocide of 3 million civilians, by their brave army in East Pakistan, nor do they acknowledge, fighting a proxy war in India, for decades, in which thousands of civilians have been killed.

It seems that most Pakistanis are either living in a delusional past (we ruled you India 100000000 years etc etc) or in a fictional future (we’ll defeat India & the US & rule the world again etc etc). They don’t seem to give a darn about their present & that’s exactly why, their future is very dark. So, my message to Global Watcher, Mauryan, Ravi etc., is, trying to change the thinking Pakistanis like this Umair fellow here, is an exercise in futility & an absolute waste of your precious time. For them, India will be enemy # 1, even when the Taliban is lining them up on a street, to behead them. As a wise man once said “You can’t reason with the ignorant or the insane” and in my view, most Pakistanis have certainly become, BOTH!

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive
 

The pathological liar writes: “Whether India is an enemy or not is not clear, however India certainly is not a friend as yet.”

Friendship needs two parties. It cannot be one sided. Have Pakistanis tried to be friendly with Indians? No. Why should we be friendly to you when you celebrate your terrorists coming in to our country and killing out people for some delusional ideology?

“Pakistan was used by the USA during the Soviet war, now the tide will turn.”

Again you started lying. Pakistan jumped in eagerly with the US with the greed for weapons and political support to fight a never ending proxy war with India. And the US, until now allowed that. It helped you feed that monster in your belly. It left once its job was done. Your country bred that monster further and now it has started eating your guts.

“Taliban are not our problem, they were funded by the US to fight USSR. Let the US take care of Taliban, Pakistan is only concerned with protection of its own interests.”

BS. Taliban did not exist during the entire war with the Soviet Union in Afghanistan and its eventual collapse. Taliban became an alternative to the warring tribes who reduced Afghanistan to rubble further. And Pakistan helped groom this monster in order to take control of Afghanistan. Your leaders called it as having a friendly government in Afghanistan that provided strategic depth against your traditional enemy India. And your country is the first one to recognize Taliban government in Kabul and had diplomatic relationship with it. The US did not care what you did. Your ISI and military provided weapons, logistics and soldiers to fight the other Afghan war lords in the north. Do not lie. You lose your credibility entirely. You simply ducked under the table when I provided you with neutral references and challenged you to counter me with similar references. You maintained silence for sometime and now are back again starting from ground zero. This means only one thing. You are fixated in your mind about whatever you believe and what you have been fed with.

It is interesting to see that almost the whole country of Pakistan has become like Umair. They have been living on lies and are consumed by it. These are symptoms of a country that is about to fall. The first symptom is a strong belief in lies.

 

Mortal writes: “It seems to me, that no matter how substantiated, verifiable & certifiable, are the facts presented to them, Pakistanis are just not interested in accepting the truth. They want to keep living in denial, in their own fictional land of fantasia, with their own grossly distorted version of history.”

I was not convinced of mass hysteria and psychology until I see Pakistanis now. All they need is a leader like Hitler. And they will become animals completely. Realize how dangerous it is to let these people with Nuclear weapons. Hatred is a worse than even the nukes and they have begun to boil with hatred. Our leaders should work with the US and others to dismantle the nuclear infrastructure in this rogue nation. As they burn, these nukes are going to catch fire and explode from within.

 

Mauryan writes: “Our leaders should work with the US and others to dismantle the nuclear infrastructure in this rogue nation. As they burn, these nukes are going to catch fire and explode from within.”

Trust me, the US has been preparing a contingency plan for that day, for a long time. I had read an article back in 2002 about joint exercises being conducted frequently, by a special task force, consisting of Americans, Indians & Israelis, in the eventuality of Pakistani Nukes falling in the hands of extremists. The world is watching Pakistan’s nuclear facilities, without blinking an eyelid.

Mauryan writes: “I was not convinced of mass hysteria and psychology until I see Pakistanis now. All they need is a leader like Hitler. And they will become animals completely”

The mass hysteria, the vindictiveness & the hateful ideology has been ingrained in the Pakistani mind for decades. Right from the 1st grade text-books in schools, up to the venomous speeches & sermons in madrasaas & mosques. What can you say about the psyche of a country, which considers barbaric & ruthless invaders like Ghauri & Ghaznavi as heroes, so much as to even name their missiles after them. Ironically, today the descendants of those heroes (the Taliban) are invading Pakistan itself but the delusional ignoramuses that Pakistanis have become, most of them are still in denial.

There are some very good, moderate & tolerant Pakistanis like Ahmed Rashid, Asma Jahangir & Pervez Hoodhbhoy etc. who get it right but I’m afraid, they form a very minor segment of the Pakistani society and won’t be able to stop this tsunami of extremism that will consume all of Pakistan, eventually.

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive
 

Umair:
April 19th, 2009 9:51 am GMT, you write
“Whether India is an enemy or not is not clear, however India certainly is not a friend as yet.”

25 minutes later (April 19th, 2009 10:16 am GMT) you write:
“Also just remember , India still is officially enemy. no 1 so far.”

You are not clear about India. You feel it is patriotic to shout against India!!!–everyuthing is bad. Try to find soemthing “Good” out if Taliban.

–Also you think that Taliban is not pakistan problem–and why is that–strategic depth/!!!!—-this is Pakistan’s binggest problem. THe fact is Taliban is Pak’s problem more than it is US’s, which is 2 continents away. Perhaps you have the luxry to stay clear of Taliban and are lucky not to live under Talibanized Pakistan, so far.

Good luck

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

@Hatred is a worse than even the nukes and they have begun to boil with hatred.”
- Posted by Mauryan

–Mauryan, you have been on these blogs shared ur thoughts with pakistani and other bloggers. You have tried to reason with pakistanis & have hit ur head against their wall of ideology based on anti-Hindu religious intolerance/anti-India-pro-Taliban ideology/conspiracy theories/take all the credit for throwing Soviets out & blame US for all the problems in Pak/shamelessly telling that Pakistan-ISI is doing anti-India activities in Mumbai. These bloggers are hopefully the over-exagerated version of Pakistani people, but do do you still think Indians hate Pakistanis more than the other way around?

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

Rajeev writes: “do you still think Indians hate Pakistanis more than the other way around?”

I wouldn’t generalize that all Indians hate Pakistanis. But I am sure there is a substantial number of close minded people on our side too – The Thackerays, Narendra Modis, the Advanis and their followers. The only advantage is that they are not as militant as the groups inside Pakistan, who are almost trained to fight like commandos. Our diversity and democratic system have kept these war lords at bay from exploiting the public sentiments. And I am glad that we have atheists, Dalits, Communists and Congressmen who balance out their thrust.

Our frustration has been that the Americans have completely ignored the reality in the region and have gone to bed with the wrong people in bringing peace to this region. This has also whipped up anti-American sentiments in our population.

I worry for our moderate Muslims after Mumbai. I read in NY times that many well to do middle class Muslims are denied renting apartments in Mumbai. I’d like to protest this somewhere. We need to do better in treating our citizens for their rights. But that is a different topic.

In short, I do believe that there are hate mongers inside our country too. Right now, we have control over them.

 

Rajeev,

Sorry, I don’t think I gave you a clear answer. I believe we have an equal number of people inside India who hate Pakistanis to the core. Mind you India is 8 times more populated. So that makes is about 12%.

What I worry about is that this population might grow more militant and trigger Islamic upsurge inside India. This is something the ISI would love to exploit. And these groups might pressure the government to do stupid things. We must campaign somewhere hard to contain these elements in India who are waiting for an opportunity to use hatred as a quick means to power grabbing. Hate will burn anyone. I’d love to sign up extradition treaty with Pakistan and send Bal Thackarey, Uddhav Thackaeray, and other hate mongers to Pakistan. They can do whatever they want with these guys. I’d like to see them in the same jail cell with Dawood Ibrahim.

 

@Rajeev,
I wouldn’t generalize that all Indians hate Pakistanis. But I am sure there is a substantial number of close minded people on our side too – The Thackerays, Narendra Modis, the Advanis and their followers. The only advantage is that they are not as militant as the groups inside Pakistan, who are almost trained to fight like commandos. Our diversity and democratic system have kept these war lords at bay from exploiting the public sentiments. And I am glad that we have atheists, Dalits, Communists and Congressmen who balance out their thrust.”

–I do not want to rake up the old discussion. My point of asking the question was that I rememebered once we had one intense discussion over the Kashmir issue and you said something along the lines which made it sound as if more Indians hate Pakistanis than do Pakisanis towards India. Population-wise, it is not the absolute #s. But I got ur point.

Moving on, did you say the recent development–

http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_deta il.asp?Id=21615

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

Rajeev writes: “Moving on, did you say the recent development–

http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_deta il.asp?Id=21615″

This demand seems to confine the rules to the Malakand region only. It depends upon how the Pakistani leaders play them after the rule is implemented. If it is left internal to Pakistan, I think the dust will settle. But the Al Qaeda and Afghan Taliban issues will not be allowed to settle by the US. They would push Pakistan’s government to go in there and take them out. That is when the Taliban will decide to take over the power in entire Punjab first and control the situation from there. Balochistan is already in their pocket.

 

Rajeev,

I take my comment back. This Washington Post articles says otherwise. Looks like Taliban is aiming high.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con tent/article/2009/04/19/AR2009041901731. html?hpid=topnews

 

@Rajeev,
I take my comment back. This Washington Post articles says otherwise. Looks like Taliban is aiming high.”
–by Mauryan

Mauryan: I am just waiting for counter attack by “Pakistani Army” OR another deal by Pakistani establishment. One of the two.

Yes u are right, it is something big. This is fundamentalism movement sweeping across the nation and has Mullahs, terrorists, Taliban sharing their common goal of fanatic Islamic Pakistan where Qazi not CJ decides—the worst possible scenario that a sane Pakistani would wish for. This has shadowed LongMarch, so soon so easily. LongMarch was for judiciary and democracy this is also over those issues to make sure everything won in LongMarch is lost. These extremists/terrorists of all shades including fanatic Mullahs are part of these tide and want to turn Islamic republic of Pakistan into Fanatic Republic of Taliban. Others have no say in this.

Quote “Speaking to thousands of followers in an address aired live from Swat on national news channels, cleric Sufi Mohammed bluntly defied the constitution and federal judiciary, saying he would not allow any appeals to state courts under the system of sharia, or Islamic law, that will prevail there as a result of the peace accord signed by the president Tuesday.”

And in Islamabad in the famous Lal Masjid:
“Mohammed’s dramatic speech echoed a rousing sermon in Islamabad on Friday by another radical cleric, Maulana Abdul Aziz, who appeared at the Red Mosque in the capital after nearly two years in detention and urged several thousand chanting followers to launch a crusade for sharia nationwide.”

Aziz was detained by Pakistani security forces during the siege after famous operation by Pakistani Army in July 2007. HE WAS CAPTURED WHILE DRESSED IN A BURKA :-) He used the disguise in an attempt to elude security forces. So this thing has been cooking for a while and now everything is falling in place.

There is no way other than giving these fanatics/terrorists/Taliban the same medicine what they give to others. That works the best. Good luck Pakistanis.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

Rajeev writes: “HE WAS CAPTURED WHILE DRESSED IN A BURKA ”

That also happens to be the traditional uniform for Pakistani army. Umair will feel really insulted that a non-state actor used the prestigious Pakistani military uniform typically used to escape from real wars. Umair recently posted his army’s slogan which translates thus:

BEARD, BURQA and BEND OVER.

 

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