Pakistan, India and the election manifestos

April 15, 2009

The world’s largest democracy chooses a new government in an election beginning on Thursday, and given the fires burning next door in Pakistan and Afghanistan, the men and women who will rule New Delhi over the next five years will doubtless exert influence over the course of events.

Indeed, with the pain and anger over  the Mumbai attacks of November still raw, the mood could hardly be tougher against Pakistan. Even shorn of the campaign rhetoric, the positions of both the ruling Congress and the Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party on Pakistan begin from common ground. No dialogue with Islamabad until it “dismantles the infrastructure of terrorism”, both parties say in their manifestos.

Full texts of the documents of the two main parties are here and here.

New Delhi’s continued refusal to resume dialogue or indeed to expand other links such as trade has caught Pakistan between a rock and a hard place, according to this piece in 2point6billion.com, a website tracking developments mainly in China and India. While Islamabad has repeatedly called for resumption of dialogue since the attacks, Delhi has refused to comply until it is assured that Pakistan will prosecute all those involved in the planning and operations.

Delhi maintains that it holds information garnered from satellite, cellular and other communications devices captured at the scene that lead to specific individuals that Pakistan has as yet failed to apprehend. Islamabad denies the charge and says it is doing everything in its power to cooperate.

The result is that the noose has tightened around Pakistan, exacerbating its already dire financial situation. Trade between Pakistan and India, which had been growing and was forecast to hit US$10 billion by 2010, has dwindled to close to zero over the past few months, with Pakistan feeling the brunt of this economic demise, says the website. Islamabad has already had to apply for a US$7.6 billion loan from the IMF in February and garnered an additional US$2.8 billion in military aid from the Obama administration just two weeks ago. 

But is there a possibility that once India’s elections are out of the way, there might be a slight softening of positions? A new government will be under less pressure to be seen to be acting tough. Looking at the manifestos again, you do detect slight differences in the tone.

Here’s the BJP on Pakistan, true to its roots a touch more aggressive :

“”There can be no ‘comprehensive dialogue’ for peace unless Pakistan a) dismantles the terrorist infrastructure on territory under its control; b) actively engages in prosecuting terror elements and organisations; c) puts a permanent, verifiable end to its practice of using cross-border terrorism as an instrument of state policy; d) stops using the territory of third countries to launch terror attacks on India; and, e) hands over to India individuals wanted for committing crimes on Indian soil.”

The Congress on the other hand says dealing with “”terrorism aided and abetted from across our borders does not require a muscular foreign policy as advocated by the BJP.”"

Here is their plan:

“”But the Mumbai attacks have cast a long shadow on the on-going dialogue and engagement process. It is now entirely up to Pakistan to break the impasse by taking credible action against those responsible for the carnage in Mumbai. If it does so and dismantles the terrorist networks that operate from its soil, a Congress-led government will not be found wanting in its response. ”

Has the Congress, still the frontrunner in the election, left the door to dialogue slightly open?

Comments

Sanjeev :
“Indeed, with the pain and anger over the Mumbai attacks of November still raw, the mood could hardly be tougher against Pakistan.”

-With due respect, with the pain and anger over the 1971 East Pakistan war still raw, the mood in Pakistan still remains tougher than ever against India also. If you compare the wounds, East Pakistan 1971 is a bigger wound to heal than Mumbai 2008.
After all, what is Pakistan going to miss out, trade? we will still make it. I know Pakistan has chronic economic problems and Balance of Payment crisis, but there are priorities.

Today there was a report that activists of Shri Ram Sena who attacked a center in Delhi where a meeting of Indo-Pak forum and where Pakistani journalists were present was taking place. This type of attitude, thuggery, bullying and imposing pre-conditions are not going to work.

If there is a need for Pakistan to handover certain criminals to India, than there is a need for an extradition treaty sign up through negotiation between the two countries. But than India’s condition is that criminals handed over first, while according to Pakistani law they cant be due to the absence of an extradition treaty.

Also while Mumbai attacks have placed demands on Pakistan, what about the extremists elements like Col. Purohit(Indian Army) who was involved in Samjhota express blast and killing of Pakistani citizens, will India also extradite those criminals to Pakistan to stand trial?

In the ideal situation, Congress wins and formes a moderate coalition government free of hindu extremists willing to work with the democratic Zardari regime in Islamabad to jump start the composite dialogue and settle disputes.

In the worst case scenario, a BJP led coalition inluding hindu extremists in Lok Sabha at on end and an increasingly Talibanized Pakistan on the other end. this will be a recipie for disaster, a dangerous combination. Any attempt to push Pakistan to the edge or manipulate & undermine the democratic government in Islamabad will be very dangerous. The government of Pakistan has popular support of the people and people of Pakistan will support whatever stand it takes. India must take advatnage of this rather than wait.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Umair,

Big deal, you guys lost administrative control over East Pakistan. Did you forget that the Pakistani Army systematically genocided 2.5 million hindus and murdered another 500,000 educated class muslims, so there would be nobody intelligent left to mount a resistance? This is the 21st time, I am telling you this, but you fail to acknowledge this.

Does Pakistan not deserve punishment for the Genocide? Remember Germany was divided in half, when it genocided Jews. But Jews are worthless, aren’t they? and so are Hindus? Well, let me remind you that Mother India came to rescue the Bengali Muslims from further genocide and slaughter.

India will support a stable Pakistan provided it stops its Proxy Jihadi wars and changes and mends its ways. Pakistan has not even apologized properly before the UN for the Genocide of 2.5million HIndus and 500,000 Bengali Muslims.

Please feel free to once again not address the massive human death inflicted by Pakistan.

Forget your stupid extradition treaty, it is not needed, it is just a lame excuse to not act and not care.

If the BJP rises to power in India, it is the fault of Pakistan. Pakistan has continually not dealed in good faith, honesty, transparency and in an honorable way. Mumbai Kasab is a classic example. Denial denial denial.
How embarassing.

What one thing has Pakistan done to deserve any special treatment or niceness by India??

When the Pakistani govt angers the Indian votership by not acting and handing over criminals and not tearing apart the terrorist infrastructure, do you expect sensible, intelligent indians to just standy by and take it? Tell, me what do you expect them to feel? They want a sense of justice.

If India votes the BJP, it will be the doing of Pakistan’s inactions against terrorism and its fueling of terrorism.

On top of all of that you guys keep asking for more free begging bowl money?!?!?

See below:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/arti cle/ALeqM5jPvJtW2lhKCSNDHBUJHudVLddiewD9 7J1JIO0

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive
 

Umair,

Feel free to respond again:

1971 Pak Army Genocided 2.5 million hindus, 500,000 muslims

1971 Pak Army Genocided 2.5 million hindus, 500,000 muslims

1971 Pak Army Genocided 2.5 million hindus, 500,000 muslims

1971 Pak Army Genocided 2.5 million hindus, 500,000 muslims

1971 Pak Army Genocided 2.5 million hindus, 500,000 muslims

1971 Pak Army Genocided 2.5 million hindus, 500,000 muslims

India came to the rescue of the Bengali Muslims against West Pakistani Punjabi Aggression and genocide.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive
 

Global watcher
1989 Indian Army genocide of 80,000 Kashmiri muslims

1989 Indian Army genocide of 80,000 Kashmiri muslims

1989 Indian Army genocide of 80,000 Kashmiri muslims

1989 Indian Army genocide of 80,000 Kashmiri muslims

1989 Indian Army genocide of 80,000 Kashmiri muslims

1989 Indian Army genocide of 80,000 Kashmiri muslims

Pakistan Army, ISI and its Jihadi proxies start helping their Kashmiri muslim brothers against occupation and aggression of hindu dominated Indian Army.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

@Sanjeev,

Sorry, I am getting extremely sick and tire of Pakis complaining about 1971. Somehow the true history of these events have evaded the citizens of Pakistan due an alternate set of history books being used there.

I am shocked how Pakis’s can complain and keep bringing up 1971, but fail acknowledge that they started the WAR and PK Gen. Niazi surrendered to INDIA with 90,000 POWS and they genocided 3 million human beings.

Pakistan is no different than a Hilter and completey unaplogetic about it.

Umair, don you dare ever evoke 1971 ever again.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive
 

Sanjeev
@”But is there a possibility that once India’s elections are out of the way, there might be a slight softening of positions? A new government will be under less pressure to be seen to be acting tough. Looking at the manifestos again, you do detect slight differences in the tone.”

I think you have still not gauged completely the tectonic shift 26/11 has brought in India’s psyche. i will write in bold if that helps in sinking-in UNTIL THE PERPETRATORS, FUNDERS AND ABETORS OF MUMBAI CARNAGE ARE BROUGHT TO JUSTICE NO DIALOGUE WILL BE INITIATED WITH PAKISTAN. No matter which govt is in center no one has the guts to go against the wishes of the people. And if they do then they will be shown the door.Enough is Enough!

Posted by chirkut | Report as abusive
 

u know umair..

if BJP comes to power i m sure that the govt can take swift actions..last time when the parliament was attacked vajpayee was the pm and i think he was the one who may not have attacked pakistan…but with advani i am sure …so stay focused ,though i know that u guys are always prepared……

u would definately hope that congress come in power because they are soft and u have been handling with them but but rest assured when advani was the home minister we tested nukes..and there will be something concrete this time is there will be an oppurtunity..

forget about trade we dont need to do trade with pakistan..we would need BJP in power as there will be an oppertunity very soon as there is taliban which is gaining control on whole of pakistan.. pakistan will be like afghanistan soon..and NATO from the west and INDIAN ARMY from the east will clean up the whole of pakistan..

And later it will be divided in 4 parts and of course the pak occupied kashmir will be ours..

Posted by Raging bull | Report as abusive
 

To quote Gandhi: “Be the change you want to see.”

Every day there is an 26/11 in Pakistan. We need to make friends with the Taliban, a DG ISI, An Army Chief post and nuke control , posts of PM and president gifted to Taliban in Pakistan, all these bloody 26/11 Pakistani versions will stop. Never mind if 26/11x 10000 take place elsewhere.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Raging Bull
3:00 PM 28 May 1998 Baluchistan mountains and you know the rest of the story….
Advani, George Fernandes and the likes itching to teach Pakistan a lesson ducked their tales between their legs and disappeared as soon as Nawaz Sharif stated Pakistan had settled the score.
East or west, easy game not Pakistan. Strategic encirclement? dont even think of an single millimeter of 796,096 SKM.

BJPS goons or Congress hypocrites, bring it on!

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan sees 26/11 beacuse of its own making nobody is sending fidayeens to pakistan.
Make Taliban your friend and all the world aid will stop flowing in Pakistan. Only things that will flow into Pakistan will be soldiers from all over the world tearing apart each and every person you are so proud about.Let me assure you that the outcome will not be pleasant to you

Posted by chirkut | Report as abusive
 

Slowly but surely the world is getting tired of you N threat. India is already acquiring technology to shoot down your missiles and planes in the air. Soon your bluff will be called either by Taliban or the world.

Bakre ki maan aakhir kab tak khair manayegi…

Posted by chirkut | Report as abusive
 

chirkut

“Enough is Enough!”
— The angst notwithstanding, over-debating emotionally & over-exposing foreign policies in the public domain is not a good precedent, ultimately the decision should be left to the people shouldering the responsibility & given the complex global scenario, flexibility in matters of foreign affairs is always beneficial, once a commitment or policy decision taken by the ruling govt. (irresp. of a bjp or cong.) the reasoning minds must give them their tactical support, the devious communist have already done a lot of damage on this front with their mud-splattering diring the Indo-American civil nuclear agreement.

Posted by anup | Report as abusive
 

Umair says to Global watcher:

1989 Indian Army genocide of 80,000 Kashmiri muslims

1989 Indian Army genocide of 80,000 Kashmiri muslims

1989 Indian Army genocide of 80,000 Kashmiri muslims

1989 Indian Army genocide of 80,000 Kashmiri muslims

1989 Indian Army genocide of 80,000 Kashmiri muslims

1989 Indian Army genocide of 80,000 Kashmiri muslims

Pakistan Army, ISI and its Jihadi proxies start helping their Kashmiri muslim brothers against occupation and aggression of hindu dominated Indian Army.

Response:

First of all, unlike you, I will say the death of anybody is horrible, equally a muslim, or a hindu.

Secondly, if Pakistan had not quit interfering in India Kashmir, there would be no dead Kashmiri’s, those killed were involved in separatists and terrorist activities, fueled by the ISI and their Proxy Armies. IS India just supposed to site idly by let their territory get annexed?!?! You Paki’s do not respect a soft hand, you guys need a firm, in your face response to get any positive response in any issue.

Thirdly, you Pakis butchered, in a systematic murder and war 3 million people. The 80,000 you claim is far far far less than 3 million. So go ask yourself how those two situations are even equal you fool. Again, you are demonstrating your sense of unfairness towards India.

Don’t you ever forget, Hindus suffered the bloodiest slaughter and most inhuman occupation in human history under the Mughals. We are the original people of the subcontinent, why are we being treated like we are the invaders? Umair, get your head screwed on straight.

I thought you were starting to become reasonable and may have learned something from yesterday’s posts, but nothing about you has changed. I feel that is the same for most Pakis’s as well.

Pakistani’s like you demonstrate over and over again, that with you collective mindset, you have no sense of any kind of moral center with a shred of honesty, responsibility, humility, kindness, a sense of guilt for the Hindu Genocide, nothing,…no feeling whatsoever or acknowledgment.

Why should the world give you guys any respect, money or help? It is no wonder no body in the world wants to touch Pakistan with a 1000 foot pole.

Again, I am leaving religion out of this. But when I see this kind of behavior, I keep thinking that Pakistan is suffering from a collective mental illness of some kind. Not to insult mental patients, Pakistan is like a mental patient, which has had a part of its cerebral cortex brain matter surgically removed and incapable of those basic things like: honesty, responsibility, sense of fairness towards others, humility, kindness any sense of guilt or remorse, unless it involves a muslim.

This is how you appear to the rest of us Umair, I am not kidding at all about this Umair. Anybody else, any comments on that?

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive
 

With the world 7th largest Army, it will be a tough job for outside soldiers.
We are also tired of threats from every Tom, Dick and Harry.
World aid stoppage would act as a spur and lead to greater economic self reliance. Pakistan is your hope, not your problem. God forbid if Pakistan falls, India will be picking up the pieces and you guys will have pretty sore hands.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Give control of Pakistan to Taliban and soon there will be no law, just dirty people with dirty clothes,dirty beard, dirty looks and dirty mind.

It will be interested to see punjabi elite being flogged by Taliban and in public.

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive
 

Global watcher
Have you ever heard the term of “Sick man of Europe”; “The term “Sick man of Europe” is a nickname associated with a European country experiencing a time of economic difficulty and/or poverty.”

Throughout the 1970s,[citation needed] the United Kingdom was sometimes known as the “sick man of Europe” because of industrial strife and poor economic performance compared to other European countries.

Probably, Pakistan is being termed as sick man of world? Countries go through different phases in their history.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

If the BJP comes to power, that is in the hands of Pak.

“Every day there is an 26/11 in Pakistan. We need to make friends with the Taliban, a DG ISI, An Army Chief post and nuke control , posts of PM and president gifted to Taliban in Pakistan, all these bloody 26/11 Pakistani versions will stop. Never mind if 26/11x 10000 take place elsewhere.”

India is not causing Pakistan’s daily Mumbai’s, those wounds are self inflicted, namely your own Franenstein, the Taliban. Pakistan continues to inject medicine into one arm and venom into the other and complains at India?

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive
 

Do you know which Nation has 2nd Largest army?
Had you known you would have behaved.

Taleban is just 60 miles from Islamabad. Soon Tom Dick and Harry will be ruling you. If world stops its aid nothing will stop you becoming a failed state. You already are facing shortage of E-city. Soon your oil will be dried up. And you be living ZKB’s prophecy of eating grass and have bomb.

India will not be picking pieces. It will seal its border to prevent “Umairs” crossing into India. We will let you the life that you gave to poor Afghans

Posted by chirkut | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan is not sick…she is terminal patient on life support. The moment the life support (Aid) is removed she would die.
Your economy is not seeing depression but a collapse. That is why Pak is in Tokyo begging to the world.

Posted by chirkut | Report as abusive
 

We never behaved and knew of the 2nd largest Army, because the 2nd largest Army never stood up in Kargil and 2001-02 standoff to let us know. Quality and quantity both matters.
Taliban are 60 km from Islamabad eying New Delhi further east 758 km, at this pace when will they arrive?
while showing persistently failing symptoms, Pakistan always comes back from the brink. Alternative sources of energy is a global priority including Pakistan. We ate grass and built the bomb, we will do whatever it takes to fix things.

Aparthied fences do not stop humans, just burying your head in sand will not be an option.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Congress worded its manifesto in such a way, clearly it can twist and turn around the vague demands and ultimately, to forget about the mumbai massacre until again another massacre hits the nation ( this time around, the women folk carrying out the mission, as the reports indicate). Growing impatience to Paks apathy in controlling terror outfits by the donors like US is obvious now.
When multiple billions are poured into Pak (by US and others), what compelling financial incentives do they see in a 10bil dollar projected trade across the border. Obviously, trade involves supplying a product if you know what I mean. The aid from US is coming without any strings attached, at least up until now. The point is Pak has no advantage in pleasing India, at least by whipping up emotions of religion it will have some regional sympathizers like Saudi, Bangaldesh etc. The indian congress party has no will to extract any goodies from Pak, on the other hand the BJP can get some wiggle room as Paks donors will identify and use BJP as a firm opponent of Pak. In other words BJP lead centre will be an asset to US, Iran and Afghanistan to twist the arms of slippery Pak. Its inconceivable that the pak army chickens out from its responsibility of protecting its own people when the targets are visible humans roaming around freely within its borders. Churning out conspiracy theories against its neighbors cuts no ice whether BJP lead or congress lead govt runs Delhi. Indian elections are only a minor transient distraction at best.

Finally, neither party will act irrationally unless future cross border terror goes unchecked by paks. In the later event, the international opinion would rightly identify the indias victim status and favor action by India.

 

Whatever the outcome of Indian elections, South Asia remains a volatile region, two nuclear rivals locked in rivalry. At best there seems to be turbulence ahead. Both countries will face, challenges and crisis, both have gone through them before and will be able to weather the storm. For Pakistan, the challenges are overwhelming. But than, the nation is also overwhelmingly capable despite all odds.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

If you have forgotten that your 90,000 soliders surrendered to Indian Army. Indian Army took back each and every height from Kargil. So much damage was done to your Army that nobody in your country is ready to talk about it. Like Ojhri this debacle has also been swept under the carpet by your professional army. You guys cannot even tame Taliban and abjectly surrender in Swat. What good can be think of your Professional Army?

Thanks to you country India knows how to deal with Insurgeny. We dont fight insurgency using mortar and shells! Taliban will reach islamabad because pakis are either complicit in it or not doing anything. Either ways India will not provide both of these things to spread into our country.
The last time you had upheaval at such a level Bangladesh was born. What’s next? Your country is surviving not because Pakistanis are doing something extraordinary but because of the world not allowing it to fail.
You ate grass and stole bomb. But world has changed since then. Looks like now only thing left for you is to eat grass only and live/die with your bomb.

If India stops Pakistani refugees overflowing into India it will not be because of Aperthied. We dont want to infect our population with your disease. It is called Quarantine.

Posted by chirkut | Report as abusive
 

Sorry Sir South Asia is not volatile because of India. India is the only country in the subcontinent which has remained stoic and democratic. Don’t drag us to your level.
What you term is rivalry is ludicrous. Pakistan is a nobody trying to equate itself to a rapidly rising Nation. That Nobody’s only claim to fame is to steal N-weapn and detonate it.
The challenges the countries are facing are way apart. One small global migraine is fighting for survival. While India is striving to pull out its poeple out of poverty by rapidly developing economically, scientifically/technologically and socially.

Posted by chirkut | Report as abusive
 

One of the misperception Indians generally have is Pakistan Army surrendering 90,000 soldiers in Dhaka. First of all, even in 1971 war like 65 and 48 Pakistani forces fought with bravery and courage.
Secondly, time kept running and didnt stop in 1971. Soviets came and went from Afghanistan, ISI was turned into what it is today.
Pakistan is best in covert warfare and lacks in counter-insurgency. While India has a good record keeping in view the number of insurgencies and size of Indian Army deployed to deal with them. We kept going till Siachin, Kargil, 2001-02. Both countries have strengths and weaknesses that can be exploited.

The world realizes Pakistan’s strategic importance and repurcussions globally if Pakistan fails. When Afghanistan faltered, refugees poured in from there. We are paying the price of Soviet occupation of Afghanistan till today. Grab up a hose, put out the fire in Pakistan if you want to save your house from the blaze.

Did Vajpayee said’ You can pick your friends but not your neighbours’? Can we learn to live with each other, can we even share the planet and its resources with fellow human beings. Most wars are fought due to oil, resources, influence, land disputes. We humans are destroying the planet, arent we? maybe I am wrong.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

India has a long way to go, we wish you good luck on that journey till we figure out our status in the global arena. From where I see it, the idea of Pakistan and its coming to reality in 1947 and where we stand today, we have a chance to acquire our rightful place in the world. We are part of muslim world, our aspirations and priorities are different thats why we wanted to carve Pakistan out of British India.

And you cannot dodge serious questions that loom by mere self praise.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Paki army might have fought bravely but that had not changed the result. The fact is your 90,000 so called brave and professional soldiers surrendered. Another sample of your Army’s bravery we have seen in SWAT. I think i have already seen enough.

Afghanistan problem was created by your country. Read my previous post on it. America moved in much later. IF you got issues because of Afghanistan then its your own making. Live with it!

There are more ways of fighting fire. Do you know how a forest fire is contained? A controlled area is burnt down to sap Forest fire out of fuel. No need for us to run with the hose. Just let the area burn down and seal the borders.

If you want to life in peace then dismantle all your terrorist Camp and bring perpetrators of 26/11 to justice. Pakistani words have lost its value. World now only values her actions. That is why Obama is putting condition to his aid.

Posted by chirkut | Report as abusive
 

Lets leave Pakistan Army out, in case their is a fight we will show you.
Wildfires burn everything in their way and is different form forest fire. Intense hot weather conditions and wind without any chance of rain spreads wild fires rapidly.

Pakistan wrote a letter to USSR to send the Red Army to Afghanistan because we wanted the CIA to empower the ISI. ridiculous?

Actions surely speak louder than words but good actions. We also want Col. Purohit the Samjhota express bomber brought to justice.

We want to live with peace and are prepared for war, we are fighting against the same terrorists. Why would allow us any terrorist camps in our country.

Obama’s own economy is in recession and G20 summit in London recently was literally a joke. The world is in a grip of economic slow down.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Sanjeev,

Your article seems to project an impression as though India-Pakistan tension is the most important election priority. This is clearly not true. There are going to be 700 million voters this time and a majority of them will not even think of Pakistan or Kashmir or terrorism as the main issue. Islamic terrorism and sensitivity to it are confined mostly to Mumbai, Delhi and may be Bangalore. These are urban centers and the majority Indians live in rural areas. For them prices of commodities, communication, water, loans etc will be the priorities. In other parts, jobs and economic climate will be topics of importance. There is going to be a serious horse trading after the elections. I hope a Congress led majority wins this time.

 

Umair writes: “Whatever the outcome of Indian elections, South Asia remains a volatile region, two nuclear rivals locked in rivalry. ”

Mr. Umair,

No one is locked in any rivalry with your country. The problem is Pakistanis think they are the grand masters of the world and are engaging themselves in rivalry. India’s nuclear weapons program is directed at holding China at arm’s length. India never considered Pakistan as it equal or worth working with. India’s missiles and nukes are there to provide security from Chinese threat. After we achieved that security, China has been conciliatory towards us. We have no problems with Pakistan seeing India as a threat and therefore eating grass in order to make its own nukes and missiles. Now India will think twice before coming after Pakistan.

The story should end there. Everyone turns around and minds their own business. India and China did that and now they are competing on economic front. One is called the Asian elephant and the other the dragon. It is a healthy competition. India and China are also engaged in trade. Nuclear parity helped achieve this peace. India did not decide to bleed China through asymmetric warfare and spend all it money into sending in terrorists inside China, quoting Tibet and North East unrest as the reason. Both countries know what not to do. So peace prevails.

Pakistan on the other hand, lost its mind after achieving nuclear power. They acted irresponsibly, engaged in insurgency operations inside India, fomented militancy in Kashmir and killed innocent people in Mumbai. Be glad that you are dealing with India and not China. Chinese are the most ruthless people on earth and they would have crushed you right away. India has humanitarian feelings. We believe in live and let live philosophy. Pakistan needs to know its size and position in the global stage and act according to that. I have mentioned many times on this blog feed backs that Pakistan should never compare itself as equal to India. There is no comparison. All your problems arise from that emotional reason.

This article is about elections in India and how the India-Pakistan issue will influence the results. Let us try sticking to that instead of going through another cycle of Kashmir-Freedom fighters-Cruel Indian military-Pakistan is a thumb sucking baby-Jesus is a Taliban-Pakistan is the world’s wealthiest nation-Pakistan’s military is the world’s largest-Its nukes are the most potent bombs in the world and so on. You are hijacking every discussion with the same set of arguments.

You still have not provided evidence for Indian embassy’s nefarious activities in Balochistan or Afghanistan. And you need to provide details on the seven Indian embassies inside Afghanistan.

 

Umair writes: “Can we learn to live with each other, can we even share the planet and its resources with fellow human beings. Most wars are fought due to oil, resources, influence, land disputes. We humans are destroying the planet, arent we? maybe I am wrong.”

Sure, Sure. Now will your ISI and military pull back all militants from Kashmir? What you do with your Taliban is your business. Dismantle radical Islamic organizations in your country that engage in terrorism inside India. Help in getting justice for Mumbai attacks quickly.

We can definitely live in peace. We have always believed in that. Now, let us see if your countrymen do what you are preaching. We are minding our own business with other neighbors. So it should not be a problem for us to do the same with Pakistan. So where do you want to start inside your country?

 

May be it is time for those who cry for self determination of fellow Muslim brothers in Kashmir, also to cry for the same in Balochistan. All Islamic brothers need self determination if they so desire. May be we should help them out. Poor brothers! :-)

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp  ?page=20094\16\story_16-4-2009_pg1_8

 

Anyone dreaming of creating mischief in Baluchistan is living a fools paradise. Ever sine the fall of East Pakistan, if another part of Pakistan is tried to be dismembered it will generate destruction on a scale the world has never seen before. It literally is Pakistan: Now or never. We have to prove ourselves now or never.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Mauryan
“Now will your ISI and military pull back all militants from Kashmir?”

No. You messed it up in East Pakistan and forever made an enemy out of ISI and Paksitan Army. Now suck it up will you?

You still think all along these years that enough is enough. We still believe we have scores to settle. Low intensity conflict will increase the long term price.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

I think what Umair is saying is that ISI and “Professional and Brave” (lol) Pak army will continue to foment trouble in india. That is OK. But beware to meddle is Balochistan and pay us back in the same coin. Hypocrisy anyone?

I refrained to cut Mauryan’s discussion and didn’t reply back to Umair. But looks like laaton ke bhoot baton se nahin maante hain.

Here is a friendly advice…. If you have a competent Army/ISI ask/plead them to save you from Taliban that is already knocking on your door.

If you want to keep Balochistan than treat them right. And No! Killing their leaders is not how civilized people treat their people. Deja Vu Bangladesh??

Posted by chirkut | Report as abusive
 

Talking about Politics,
some interesting video on Pakistanis politics. This Pakistani politician asks the same question to Musharraf why Pakistan is unable to establish political system like India has, and why Pakistani Army steps in over political instability but in India that does not happen.

part of the clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v148b2r-o NU

Complete video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4VTXMmld2 jc

ON election result in India, whatever the party, no one has that long rope for pakistan.

@On: Pakistani faces 26/11 everyday by some Pakistani bloggers.
—These 26/11 are the consequences of the Pakistan’s/notorious ISI’s pro-terrorism policies in India and Afghanistan–starting with cold war elements, terrorism in Kashmir and Sikh militancy in Punjab. In Punjab from 1980s to mid 1990s, Pakistan-supported Sikh terrorism was an everyday affair. During peak terrorism, daily, there would be a headline with # of innocents killed by terrorists—20 dead, 30 dead, 40 dead…It was jus a matter of how many are killed. That India wiped out this terrorism does not mean we have forgotten. Indians have suffered at the hands of Pakistani-sponsored terrorism, which some Pakistani bloggers are proud of when they admire the acts of ISI. Indian rhetoric is justified.

From pakistan, POV, the worst part is whether US is out of the region or not, these terrorists in Pakistan will have to be eliminated. They cannot be labeled good/bad now but after US leaves, everyone will be good—this will happen–too bad for Pakistan. Sometime I feel the state of Pakistani Army that can kill millions quickly (Muslims/Hindus) in E. Pakistan, can kill policians in coups, but have such deep bonds for these real terrorists.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

Talking about Politics,
some interesting video on Pakistanis politics. This Pakistani politician asks the same question to Musharraf why Pakistan is unable to establish political system like India has, and why Pakistani Army steps in over political instability but in India that does not happen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v148b2r-o NU

@ON election result in India: whatever the party, no one has that long rope for pakistan.

@On Pakistan faces 26/11 everyday by some Pakistani bloggers.
—These 26/11 in Pakistan are the consequences of the Pakistan’s/notorious ISI’s pro-terrorism policies in India and Afghanistan–starting with cold war elements, terrorism in Kashmir and Sikh militancy in Punjab. In Punjab from 1980s to mid 1990s, Pakistan-supported Sikh terrorism was an everyday affair. During peak terrorism, daily, there would be a headline with # of innocents killed by terrorists—20 dead, 30 dead, 40 dead…It was jus a matter of how many are killed. That India wiped out this terrorism does not mean we have forgotten. Indians have suffered at the hands of Pakistani-sponsored terrorism, which some Pakistani bloggers are proud of when they admire the acts of ISI. Indian rhetoric is justified.
From pakistan, POV, the worst part is whether US is out of the region or not, these terrorists in Pakistan will have to be eliminated. They cannot be labeled good/bad now but after US leaves, everyone will be good—this will happen–too bad for Pakistan. Sometime I feel the state of Pakistani Army that can kill millions quickly (Muslims/Hindus) in E. Pakistan, can kill policians in coups, but have such deep bonds for these real terrorists.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

@Pakistan is not sick…she is terminal patient on life support. The moment the life support (Aid) is removed she would die.
Your economy is not seeing depression but a collapse. That is why Pak is in Tokyo begging to the world.
- Posted by chirkut

–Then some Pakistanis say Pakistani does not need help and crutches.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

@We never behaved and knew of the 2nd largest Army, because the 2nd largest Army never stood up in Kargil and 2001-02 standoff to let us know. Quality and quantity both matters.
Taliban are 60 km from Islamabad eying New Delhi further east 758 km, at this pace when will they arrive?

–Thank you Mr. Jinnah for creating Pakistan.
@Quality and quantity both matters.—-just to make the point, that’s what I have been saying that spread of religion does not mean progress (no more discussion on Religion in this context here from me).
But how about Quality+quantity of Army=enemy bites dust in each attack.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

As my grandfather’s friend used to say:

“Pakistani noo Jhooth and Jooth bahut falde ne”

Lies and left overs flourish Pakistanis.

Now I see how correct he was.

http://www.themedialine.org/news/news_de tail.asp?NewsID=24849

They are knocking door of every country with begging bowl and spreading lies of being a victim. Begging Bowl has also gone bigger, they are asking donations for 30 Billion Dollars.

And we are reading courage stories of Pakistani army, and how they fought bravely in each and every war.

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive
 

Umair writes: “Ever sine the fall of East Pakistan, if another part of Pakistan is tried to be dismembered it will generate destruction on a scale the world has never seen before.”

Oh, I though you guys grew up with the belief India lost to Pakistan in 1971. Then how did East Pakistan fall? Did you guys drop it hard?

Don’t worry. No one will have to come from outside to break down your mud brick house in Balochistan. It will fall on its own. And that destruction will be on such a scale the world has never seen after Bangladesh. Those who live by the sword, will die by it too.

 

Umair warns (hee! hee!): “No. You messed it up in East Pakistan and forever made an enemy out of ISI and Paksitan Army. Now suck it up will you?”

Wrong. We cleared the messed your military set up in East Pakistan. Learn history correctly. ISI considers India its enemy forever ever since Pakistan was formed. Which one should be sucked in first? Balochistan? You tell us and we will surely help.

 

this is a reposted URL since it was unclickable in the last post. hope it works.

In this video Pakistani guy wants Pakistani Army to behave like an Indian Army and Pakistani Politics to behave like Indian. what say you Pakistani bloggers?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v148b2r-o NU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v148b2r-o NU

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

Pak begging the world is half of the story.
Whats new is that their “All weather” friends are kicking them away when approached for Alms.

I was really surprised by this news. But then i cant blame them. Any sane nation would do the same
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp  ?page=20094\16\story_16-4-2009_pg1_10

Its high time that Pak mend their ways and stop abetting terrorism.

Posted by chirkut | Report as abusive
 

@Pakistan is best in covert warfare and lacks in counter-insurgen

–That’s what places Pakistan in the category of terrorist alike state. It did not even need 9/11 for Sec. Albright to almost to that job.
–Stp behaving like terrorists, behave like a nation (yes the real “peaceful”)

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

@Did Vajpayee said’ You can pick your friends but not your neighbours’? Can we learn to live with each other, can we even share the planet and its resources with fellow human beings
—-Umair

—Sharing is give & take, not take, take, take, take…
giving terrorism is not “give”

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan may be calling for a resumption of dialogue, but dialogues make no sense as long as Pakistan continues sponsoring terrorist activities in India.

Things seem to be slipping out of the hands of the Pakistani authorities with their rapidly worsening internal security situation. For now, they need to focus on getting their house in order before anything happens with India.

 

@Umair,

I agree with Mauryan, India has handled Pakistan with Kid Gloves up till now. If the Chinese were next door neighbours, they would have ruthlessly & mercilessly wiped Pakistan and occupied it, if they had to put up with Islamist Terrorist attacks and proxy armies. Even China does not want to touch Pakistan. China has only been helping Pak to keep agitation on India, to maintain a tactical advantage.

The Saudi’s sent free dates to eat and the Chinese didn’t even bother giving free rice to Pak, let alone money.

Pakistan’s noose will continue to tighten as its friends disappear one by one at the same time, the BJP might get into office. The Taliban are taking over Pakistan and the economy is in ruins. Pakistan will be completely encircled.

Ironically speaking, the only Pak can save itself is if it seeks true, honest and friendly reconciliation with India, its fictitious enemy. The U.S. does not care damn about Pakistan either.

If the US policy fails in Afghan and Pak, the U.S. will drop the trap door on Pakistan and Pakistan will be hung for good.

It is not too late my dear Pak friends, make amends with India and prevent the BJP from coming into power. If you fail to do so, make preparations for your eventual rapid decline.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive
 

No matter who comes to power in India, the overall stance towards Pakistan will not change. The pre-condition for any talks with Pakistan will be to dismantle their terror infrastructure. There is no need to wait for the elections to complete for this answer. All Indians will stand by the national interest when it comes to matters of this kind.

 

A reader has raised an interesting point. If the Taliban are supposed to be 60 km from Islamabad, they are not then that far from Delhi. Some 750 kms away perhaps at this point which isn’t a great deal of distance in that part of the world.
Doesn’t that reinforce the image of a whole region at threat, not just Afghanistan and Pakistan. Perhaps this is not just an AF-PAK war as the United States now believes,there is India too in that equation

Posted by Sanjeev Miglani | Report as abusive
 

Sanjeev,

Even before Taliban, India faced Kahlistanis in 1980, Kashmiri Terrorists since 1990.All of these aided and abetted by our neighbor Pakistan. How will the threat of Taliban be any different? From a threat perspective Taliban is no worse than LeT or HM or JeM. And India is dealing with those already. Taliban is a existential threat to Pakistan because it is hitting her deep inside and Pakis are not able to control them: At least not any longer.

Islamabad and Delhi are geographically 750 KM apart but culturally and sociologically world apart. Pakistan is still not sincere in dealing with Taliban. This split aided by the a weak and corrupt Army (Sorry Umair but i have to state truth here) has resulted in chaos in Pakistan.But in india we are not ambivalent. Whole of India oppose Taliban and there in lies the difference.
In essence Taliban is no greater a threat to India as it is to rest of the world. Remember there is no “I” in “Af-Pak”

Posted by chirkut | Report as abusive
 

Sanjeev,

You are giving too much credit to the Taliban. One thing you should realize is that Taliban spreads through people. It cannot hold people who are not Muslims hostage. Taliban surely is a threat. But so is the whole of Pakistan as far as India is concerned. And India has lived with this threat all these years. And India has faced many threats which were much worse in the past. Indira Gandhi and her son Sanjay Gandhi were the worst threats faced by India. They held the power at the center and literally set up conditions that would have led to the break up of the country. Like Taliban, they too believed in using brute power versus democratic means. Democracy was an irritant to them. They had to face the voter every so many years. Kashmir, Khalistan, North East, LTTE, Nepal etc became hot points during their tenure. Democracy itself became doubtful. And like Taliban, they preferred a backward and poor nation based on socialistic, isolated ideals to keep power to themselves. They are gone and India has changed completely. Whatever problem it faces will be overcome by steady progress. Pakistan, Taliban etc will always be threats to any nation and they will be treated just like criminals. There is no country devoid of criminals. Wake up and smell some coffee for a change. You are making it sound as though Taliban is the most challenging thing in the world. I do not agree with it. Let them take over Pakistan and that country will fall apart and turn into a dry pit after that. And world powers are not going to sit and play cards. Every one is watching the events.

 

I just have one question. What the heck is the Pakistani army doing on the sidelines while the Taliban take over Pakistan? How does Taliban taking over Pakistan, suit their interests?

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive
 

Sanjeev, ……..60Km – 800 Km angle……..

The Taliban taking on Islamabad will not happen- once Islamabad is attacked the army will cluster bomb northwest to cut off the supply lines and to eliminate Taliban leadership. No one will shed a tear for Taliban, the global players/UN/ media will look away conveniently. The FATA, NWFP and Balochis see the army as a Punjabi force, as a result they ruthlessly attacked the intrders in their own *home lands*. Thus, in the context of Pakistan any Civil war translates into just protecting Punjab and Sindh. Army will brutally oppress the Taliban driving them west towards AfPak. By and large Indian borders are infiltrated at the pleasure of Pak Army. Currently both LeT and JeM have free pass as they work in tandem with Army. Taliban will not choose to run towards eastern border for short of safe haven there. So long as Taliban postures as a challenge to Army, Indian border is protected from former by the latter. Agree- Sounds a paradox.

US wants India very much in the equation because naïve US believes AfPak can be salvaged across Durand line. India knows more than that, unless a buffer country is created between Pak and Afghan, the prospects of creating one big happy caliphate are too alluring for islamists to let peace prevail in the region. After pouring billions of tax dollars US will fold and leave. Iran, Afghan and India will have to collectively face Pak sponsored terrosrism.

 

Sanjeev Miglani
“A reader has raised an interesting point. If the Taliban are supposed to be 60 km from Islamabad, they are not then that far from Delhi. Some 750 kms…”

—Oh! It’s gonna be a fantastic cake walk for them, the Indian Armed forces would be busy watching IPL & all throughout the route they’ll be enthusiastically hailed by the Indians, A warm & great reception would await them in the Parliament. Interesting indeed!

Posted by anup | Report as abusive
 

@A reader has raised an interesting point. If the Taliban are supposed to be 60 km from Islamabad, they are not then that far from Delhi. Some 750 kms away perhaps at this point which isn’t a great deal of distance in that part of the world.
Doesn’t that reinforce the image of a whole region at threat, not just Afghanistan and Pakistan. Perhaps this is not just an AF-PAK war as the United States now believes,there is India too in that equation
- Posted by Sanjeev Miglani

–Sanjeev,
I think this Pakistani blogger is just passing his time—-commenting based on the assumption of pre-partition undivided India with the policies which currently apply in Pakistan. We are 60+yrs fast forward and there is a thing called international border, and that matters. They might be served with tea by Pakistan Army on the outskirts of Islamabad, but Indian security, whose mind is not cluttered by any religious bonds, will feed them with bullets to their hearts content.

Then how about LeT/JuD (Mudrike near Lahore) which is around ~60+km from Indian border and has a declared mission of LeT to rule India. Same issue exists there. We know they cannot crossover into this side any time they want. This is an inflitration issue which we are no stranger to.

India is not in AF-PAK equation.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

Sanjeev
If we refresh our memories and go back ten years December 1998 when Indian Airlines flight was hijacked and the Indian FM flew in to Kandahar with three captives including Masood Azhar and Omar Shiekh, one can see evidently that such threats were always there for India.
The moderate to severe threat Taliban pose to India should not be played down, Lahore is under pressure after Sri Lankan team attack and Police academy siege. First city centre Lahore, next just barely few KM from Indian border. Whats next? Amritsar? Punjab, Rajhastan?

The Taliban have a huge market to look forward to, they would like to incite the Indian muslims and radicalize. Ahmed Rashid has pointed out this threat, John Walker Lindh from US was captured alongside with Taliban so do some Australians.

Also, I would like to point towards another pattern, In 1993 World Trade Centre was bombed, in 2001 a huge terrorist strike brought down the entire WTC.
In 2008 Mumbai was attacked, India needs to pull up the socks in coming years and prevent another big strike on its soil. It becomes all the more important that Kasab trial concludes and investigations in pakistan to succeed to apprehend the perpetrators so they never get bold enough to attack India.
Notions like, India has no support for Taliban; India has faced such threats; India has dealt with this thing(Kashmir, Northeast, Khalistan etc) before do not hold.

India needs not to panic, rather get themselves together, plan meticulously and thoroughly at the strategic level. Prepare itself rather play down the threat. Also keep in mind, even after all Paki bashing, today whatever is going on in Pakistan is the tussle between State(Security/lawenforcement/intelligen ce) and non-state actors(Jihadis/millitants/Taliban/miscre ants/foreign fighters). Indians might want to wish well Pakistani state to win, for it will ensure Taliban onslought to Delhi remains impossible.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

I want to share another important thing here.
The attacks in Lahore are by definition attack on the soul of Pakistan. One thing, Southern Punjab in Pakistan is very fertile ground for anti-Indian centiments. LeT, JuD and Hizbul Mujahideen etc based there. If Taliban attack Punjab province and Islamabad regularly and widen the influence in Urban Pakistan, it will spell disaster. Because in interior Punjab, one Jihadi lecture on Babri Mosque destruction, ‘Indian atrocities in Kashmir’ can turn up tens of recruits. Taliban and ‘Pak-Punjabi extremists’ need to remain far apart, their union will be a threat to India.
I believe, while might Taliban have regional generic motives, the Punjab based millitants are specifically hostile to India.

Just yesterday, the Chief Minister in Punjab announced a major salary increase for Punjab Police to bolster them and boost their morale. Police and elite units are being equipped with much advanced weapons to defend Punjab so non-state actors dont get a stronghold.
This threat is regional in the sense it places importance on India-Pakistan joint cooperation.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Mullah Umair writes: “Indians might want to wish well Pakistani state to win, for it will ensure Taliban onslought to Delhi remains impossible.”

Taliban is the baby born from the womb of the ISI and breast fed by it until it grew to this size. Unless the ISI and the Pakistani army converts entirely and gets consumed by the Taliban, no one has to worry about it in India. Days of bandits like Ghazni, Gori etc are over. Taliban might be valiant in its territory – staggering peaks with alternating valleys, devoid of trees and life. So do not worry. We are pretty safe in India and we trust our security forces to take care of us. You guys deal with your Taliban.

“today whatever is going on in Pakistan is the tussle between State(Security/lawenforcement/intelligen ce) and non-state actors(Jihadis/millitants/Taliban/miscre ants/foreign fighters)”

The state (which is basically the military) creates the Taliban and now is fighting it. In Swat, the Taliban made the military bow to it. Zardari signed it into a law. But the monster wants more. So it will get more of Pakistan. And the US is getting tangled in this mess. So if your military and the ISI want to cleanse themselves of this cancer, this is the time. Go to the Americans and work with them. They are benevolent towards anyone they destroy. It is not too late.

First worry about containing the Taliban in your country. Then we will worry about it running India. If you are giving in by saying that Taliban poses a threat to India, it means that you have already given up about fighting it in Pakistan. We will teach you how to handle these dogs. So wait until they run you over. You created it. You keep it.

 

Mauryan
“Taliban might be valiant in its territory”

—Every dog is a tiger in it’s street.

Posted by anup | Report as abusive
 

Pundit Mauryan
Go bury your head in sand like a pigeon closes its eye when the cat jumps towards it, go enjoy life in Goa. Sandy beaches umbrella drinks. I only told you to remain vigilant.
Chill out, while Taliban are pushed back from Islamabad.

Taliban distance from Islamabad=60 KM
Islamabad distance from Delhi= 758 KM
Taliban total distance from Delhi= 60+758=818KM

Just keep adding one KM in 818 for every single KM Taliban retreat.
In case they advance, for every single KM keep subtracting 1 Km from 818.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Umair writes: “If Taliban attack Punjab province and Islamabad regularly and widen the influence in Urban Pakistan, it will spell disaster. Because in interior Punjab, one Jihadi lecture on Babri Mosque destruction, ‘Indian atrocities in Kashmir’ can turn up tens of recruits. Taliban and ‘Pak-Punjabi extremists’ need to remain far apart, their union will be a threat to India.
I believe, while might Taliban have regional generic motives, the Punjab based millitants are specifically hostile to India. ”

Now he is talking! We are not afraid of any militants. We would, however, be cautious and alert. And we have been most of the time. Once in a while a slippage happens. But in all, we have handled your militants and more elsewhere for the past 62 years. We are like a huge whale which gets hurt by bites here and there. But the whale will move on.

What you must do, Umair, is to start a campaign that clears the myth about India. India is not Pakistan’s enemy. Indian Muslims, in general are beginning to do better than the Muslims in Pakistan – in terms of quality of life, freedom and security. Babri Masjid, Bamiyan Buddhas etc get demolished by lunatics once in a while. But life in general is better. If every educated Pakistani thought for himself and questioned his leaders, you can come out of your problems. But that is up to you. But do not worry about the Taliban taking on India. If they try to get at India, they will get fried on the Rajasthan sands. There are no caves and mountains there to protect them. And our Sikh regiments will slaughter them.

 

Umair/Sanjeev:

Umair: A brave man like you must wish that he does not live to see hypothesis such as “Taliban in India” “Taliban has support in Indian Muslims” to be tested. Based on your shedding the last drop of blood of 170million strong Pakistanis to protect the sovereignity of Pakistan? Gone with the wind?

@Lahore is under pressure after Sri Lankan team attack and Police academy siege. First city centre Lahore, next just barely few KM from Indian border. Whats next? Amritsar? Punjab, Rajhastan?”
—-Umair
—-Finally you agree with Indian bashers and experts and understand the gravity of the situation that Taliban might rule Pakistan, but why you are pro-Taliban then! Seems like you are ready to make peace deal-II in Lahore. What happened to that fire you had to fight for the country?
Does Paki Pakistani Army reserve that to kill inncent millions–Mulsims/Hindus–in E. Pakistan—but hesitates to kill Taliban. Wow–such a love. Pakistan has mother-child relation with Taliban.

-will Taliban walk or take direct bus to Attari or perhpas escorted by kayani in Army vehicle? garlanded by Indian Jawans to make peace deal!!! Indian Jawans are not under religious obligation to not kill Taliban because in contrast to ur theory of religion-first-nation-later, Indian (all including Muslims) theory is nation-first.

@The Taliban have a huge market to look forward to, they would like to incite the Indian muslims and radicalize
—-This means Taliban has already incited Pakistanis like you and has encashed the market. I have been thinking so far that Taliban is a clever set of militants which is hard to control. Pakistanis cannot incite Indian Muslims. Is Taliban better than you Pakistanis? Quit your “bro-bro whatever the nation” theory. keep that to Pakis. Indian Muslims are different—no bashing here. How many Indian Muslims you have known in your life, less than Indian bloggers if not zero.
Overall you are a proponent of hoisting “The Star and Crescent” flag over India/many other parts of the world like Saeed of LeT/JuD, OBL, Taliban, and Muslims from countries like you. This is the place where peaceful word stops existing. Still have not progressed.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

@Umair writes: “If Taliban attack Punjab province and Islamabad regularly and widen the influence in Urban Pakistan, it will spell disaster. Because in interior Punjab, one Jihadi lecture on Babri Mosque destruction, ‘Indian atrocities in Kashmir’ can turn up tens of recruits. Taliban and ‘Pak-Punjabi extremists’ need to remain far apart, their union will be a threat to India.
–posted by Umair

—Here Pakistan gets the greatest strategic asset. Will peaceful Pak Army/ISI miss that–they will think who cares what happens in Pakistan, atleast it will spell disaster in India.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

Taliban writes: “Taliban total distance from Delhi= 60+758=818KM”

Hey, he can add and subtract! That’s great improvement. Keep working. Taliban students learn mathematics by using heads of Pakistani soldiers. It will not be a subtraction for sure. Your math will only involve addition and multiplication.

As a friendly suggestion, learn to wear the burqa now itself. It won’t be long before your Taliban brothers will checking how much of your ankle is exposed. There will be no music, no dance, no fun, no movies, no TV, no computers, no cricket, nothing but Mullah Nasruddin on his donkey. Jinnah’s dream will be realized to its completion. As Bhutto dreamed, all Talibanized Pakistanis can eat grass and lick their nukes.

 

rajeev
Dont miss the point here.
Do you know when Mumbai happened why did Pakistan kept denying its ‘non-state’ actors could have been involved? It gave the time for foreign mediation and things to calm down, followed by confession and promises to cooperate.
In the meantime, Pakistan did some offensive posturing as well.
Let me be very clear, an Indo-Pak war is something that no one in the world will ever like to see.
If there is terrorists strikes happen again in India on a large scale, Indian leadership will be in unbearable pressure to strike back. Against whom? Pakistan based training camps? Muzaffarabad or Muridke? not sure. But even in case of limited strike and retaliation things could get messy quickly.
I believe due to prevailing situation, Indo-Pak relations have grown more uncertain. If things went bad between these two countries, a dramatic conflict can break out suddenly. Pakistan establishment would never like to see such a scenario, because against a numerically larger India, Pakistan’s only counter is nuke detterent. Who would want to excercise that option? That would be desperate situation for Pakistan, now atleast the situation is disappointing but not desperate.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

@Umair writes: “If Taliban attack Punjab province and Islamabad regularly and widen the influence in Urban Pakistan, it will spell disaster. Because in interior Punjab, one Jihadi lecture on Babri Mosque destruction, ‘Indian atrocities in Kashmir’ can turn up tens of recruits. Taliban and ‘Pak-Punjabi extremists’ need to remain far apart, their union will be a threat to India.
–posted by Umair

This is why your “Professional and Brave” (lol) army is reluctant to fight them. You people want to use them as strategic assets to be used against India. Too Bad that they have turned towards their masters. tut tut

No one is downplaying the risk of Taliban. What everyone is saying is that Taliban will not bring anything new to the table that Pakistan has not brought already.

Posted by chirkut | Report as abusive
 

@ Umair

Thanks for those words but talk is cheap!
If things between India and Pakistan deteriorate, it will be because you people didn’t do anything to tame your dogs.
Our Stand is clear. Dismantle and Destroy all terrorist and its infrastructure for talks to resume.

Posted by chirkut | Report as abusive
 

Reasons of reluctance of Pakistan Army to fight Taliban:

1. Superior equipped US, British and Canadian mechanized Armies are fighting them since last 8 years and their Generals state they are ‘not winning in Afghanistan.’

2. British Commander in Afghanistan said Afghan war is ‘unwinnable’ best possibility is to contain insurgency, handover things to Afghans and go home.

3. Canadian Army says it will say good bye to Afghanistan and go home after their mission expires in 2011.

4. US Gen. Petraus says, we are ‘not winning’ in Afghanistan and that we will talk to ‘moderate Taliban’.

5. Pakistan Army commanders are wise and are not wasting time/resources and have drawn conclusions of the mistakes by US/NATO etc.

Pakistan talks to Taliban and is demonized.
US says it will talk to Taliban, and dead silence?

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Baitullah Mehsud writes: “I believe due to prevailing situation, Indo-Pak relations have grown more uncertain. If things went bad between these two countries, a dramatic conflict can break out suddenly. Pakistan establishment would never like to see such a scenario, because against a numerically larger India, Pakistan’s only counter is nuke detterent. Who would want to excercise that option? That would be desperate situation for Pakistan, now atleast the situation is disappointing but not desperate.”

Umair,

Go back to your ISI masters and ask them to give you something new to talk about. You keep going in circles – Our country is the most powerful / Our military is the best in the world / We have nukes / Our intelligence dept is the best in the world / we suck in counter-insurgency, but we are good at creating insurgency elsewhere / If you sneeze, we will push the nuclear button / Taliban is Pakistan’s internal matter / It is beautiful in Islamabad / Kashmir is the core issue / Our military is the strongest in the world / Our intelligence is the best and so on.. Press Ctrl-alt-del buttons together to break the loop.

We know all of Pakistan’s tricks. When the Americans came to take out the Taliban in 2001, you guys tried to trigger a nuclear war between us by attacking Kashmir’s assembly. When that did not work, you tried to attack our parliament. It was a desperate attempt. A lot of things would have been exposed to show the ugly face hiding behind the burqa. That was avoided.

Now Obama decided to focus on Pakistan before Afghanistan. He called it Af-Pak (in reality it is a*se f*ck). Immediately Mumbai attacks happened. India held its ground.

I am sure the entire Pakistani establishment is involved in the Mumbai attack, using “non-state actors” whatever that means. No one knows who is running your state in the first place.

If anyone in your Mullah regime raises the nuclear option, trust me, there are enough things in place to take care of them. So this nuclear rattling will not work. Try something else for a change. Do not think every one is stupid. Plans are being worked out all around you to cut down your ISI, decimate the Taliban and put your house in order – not by India, but by the American led coalition.

Keep writing on this forum until your Taliban brothers arrive. After that there will be no internet. So enjoy it while it lasts. There is not much time however. We will be discussing about what Umair would be doing.

 

NATO is limiting its operation only to Afghanistan while Taliban is regrouping in Pakistan.
Till now they were just plucking the leaves instead of cutting the roots.
Now slowly they are realizing this. And that is why they are asking Pak to tame its ISI and “Professional and brave”(lol) Army.

All your statements are history now. US has changed its strategy. It is putting conditions to its Aid. She is valueing your actions and not words and is cutting ISI to size.

Pakistan is demonized for talking to Taliban because Taliban is destabilizing your country. Your professional and brave (lol) Army is not able to tame them, Your Army is surrendering to them and making peace deals. Results we all have seen in that poor girls flogging. Figuratively that was Pakistan lying down there getting flogged by Taliban.

Posted by chirkut | Report as abusive
 

Jinnah writes: “1. Superior equipped US, British and Canadian mechanized Armies are fighting them since last 8 years and their Generals state they are ‘not winning in Afghanistan.’”

Not yet. They know why. They have been ignorant and trusted Pakistan, not knowing that your country is made up of double faced people. But that has been changed. That is why your Qureshi is begging the Americans to “trust” Pakistan.

“2. British Commander in Afghanistan said Afghan war is ‘unwinnable’ best possibility is to contain insurgency, handover things to Afghans and go home.”

They caught 11 terrorists who got into UK using student visa. So they are not going home anytime soon. If they are going home, so will the terrorists with them.

“3. Canadian Army says it will say good bye to Afghanistan and go home after their mission expires in 2011.”

No one cares what Canada does.

“4. US Gen. Petraus says, we are ‘not winning’ in Afghanistan and that we will talk to ‘moderate Taliban’.”

Moderate Taliban has a name – ISI. So they are talking.

“5. Pakistan Army commanders are wise and are not wasting time/resources and have drawn conclusions of the mistakes by US/NATO etc.”

Yes. They surrendered in Swat. Now they are preparing special red carpet in Azad Kashmir to welcome the Taliban into Islamabad.

“Pakistan talks to Taliban and is demonized.”

Which one is demonized here? Pakistan or Taliban?

“US says it will talk to Taliban, and dead silence?”

Have you heard of calm before the storm? Westerners go silent when they are working on something seriously. They do not thump their chests before they do what they do.

 

Mauryan
Your big mistake would counting on the ‘American led coalition’ which is in tatters.
Every C-130 arriving at Dover Air Force base, every Canadian soldier draped in their flag that touches down Toronto and people line up pay respect to their casket. The opposition to and voices for ending the war are rising.
Obama is hopping mad from Turkey to NATO HQ Brussells to Germany to beg for troops for Afghanistan. No one is interested.

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“Have you heard of calm before the storm? Westerners go silent when they are working on something seriously.”

Have you heard of Category 5 hurricane? it picks up cars and throw them to the next county.
Westerners are working on something very serious. They are bailing out banks, filing bankruptcy for auto companies, fixing up wall street and straightening the economy. Caught up in a hurricane, I wonder what kind of storm big or small they can generate for Pakistan.

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Umair writes: “Your big mistake would counting on the ‘American led coalition’ which is in tatters.
Every C-130 arriving at Dover Air Force base, every Canadian soldier draped in their flag that touches down Toronto and people line up pay respect to their casket. The opposition to and voices for ending the war are rising.
Obama is hopping mad from Turkey to NATO HQ Brussells to Germany to beg for troops for Afghanistan. No one is interested.”

When a war comes, that takes precedence over everything else. America can have all kind of problems. Yet they are big enough to run a war at the same time. They can take out FATA if they get impatient. They are being kind enough to consider the innocent civilians. Western nations try hard to approach things in a civilized way (except for the neocons under George Bush). So they give as much time and chance as possible, even to terrorist regimes like Pakistan, North Korea etc so that blood need not be shed. But at some point they will have to lift the gun and aim its barrel. It is entirely left to the Af-Pak region on how it has to respond.

 

Dont prach the civilized behavior of western nations, it has wrecked havock in the world. Abu Ghairb prison abuses in Iraq, the camp X Ray and notorious ‘Frequent Flyer’ program of inmates in Guantanamo Bay are shining examples of ‘civilized western behaviors’ humans sink down to levels lower than wild beasts.
America ran two parallel wars simultaneously for last 8 years. Give them some rest, those poor guys have had enough of it. Their tax payers are lynching their leaders.

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@Mauryan
Your big mistake would counting on the ‘American led coalition’ which is in tatters.
- Posted by Umair

–Of all those 5 pillars of ‘American led coalition’, the 5th one is Pakistan’s role. Is it Pak’s war too or not yet? Does it want to fight its own way and what that is.

If the war is lost, the reason will be Pakistan–right or wrong, reasonable to think so–this area is pak’s area and they known ins and outs.

What startegy can you suggest which can work efficiently. To me Pakistan’s way is to quit military action, US/NATO leave from here and use US/IMF money without “oversight” for loans to Good Taliban so that they can set up shops and allow them in national mainstream. Will they listen to you. Is Good/bad Taliban sorting ridiculous amd impossible to achieve. Was not Taliban ruling in Afghanistan when Pak/Saudis/Taliban were happy and OBL the guest of honor. Will it be back to old days–that time Pakistan had lot of control in the Afghanistan but Afghans were suffering—would you allow taliban-like controlled govt for Pak. if not how can you wish for Afghanistan? This whole confusion is due to Pak’s well known policies towards militants-mix of STRATEGIC ASSETS/RELIGION. So everything comes to same point that solves nothing. Anti-US stand by Pakistan public can be understood from public POV who faces counterattack by US. But inaction and old tools by Pak are no way to go, even from Pakistan POV. Pak-Tal relationship tells the who story.

Big question is: what is pakistan’s alternative war strategy against all kinds of unwanted elememnts? Does Pakistan wants to keep this lucrative terrorism industry going.

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@rajeev
Dont miss the point here.
Do you know when Mumbai happened why did Pakistan kept denying its ‘non-state’ actors could have been involved? It gave the time for foreign mediation and things to calm down, followed by confession and promises to cooperate.
-posted by Umair

–Umair, thanX.
that’s hardly the point that emerges from your that message. It was not about India-Pak war at all. It was all about admiring Taliban like you admire Pakistani Army–nothing short of of that by any means.

-Good that you are talking straight and fianlly educating us about the existance of “anti-India Pakistani extremists” prospering in the flat land of Punjab-with knowledge of ISI (no brainer) who attacked Mumbai-meaning indirectly Pakistan has attacked India. Let us stick to somepoint that these terrorists with knowledge of pakistan or direct help (no brainer) attacked Mumbai-meaning indirectly Pakistan has attacked India. These don;t suit respectable nations, if Pakistan considers itself so. Umair, you guys are slipppery to handle—Let that not be taken as a complement! You and I know these games don’t run too long.

One thing: Say what you mean if you expect the others to do so. It is not about people here or there, it boils down to state policies anywhere. if Indian RAW decides that enough is enough, let us start a pro-active counter-insurgency in Baluchistan etc…., that does not make me a bad guy.

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Umair writes: “America ran two parallel wars simultaneously for last 8 years. Give them some rest, those poor guys have had enough of it. Their tax payers are lynching their leaders.”

America will not leave the region with no results. Vietnam haunts them even now. Now that they are in the region, they will make sure they get what they want. Pakistan will probably try these options.

1. Hand over Bin Laden on a platter. The Americans might quit declaring that they came and got what they wanted and quote their national priorities. They may reward Pakistan handsomely and hope that Pakistan will become an exemplary Islamic democracy.

2. Somehow wait it out, hoping that the Taliban will stay in the Swat valley and the Americans will keep waiting. Once in a while, to delay things, an attack could be staged inside India and rattle all plans for the Americans. At some point, the Americans will be forced to leave and everything can come back to normal.

3. Play faithful to the Americans, disband the jihadi elements inside the ISI, restructure and get back on the path of normalcy. This is highly unlikely, considering the monsters that have come into existence over the years.

Americans might grumble. But Obama is a serious man. He likes to finish any job he starts. In the case of Afghanistan, he has realized that he has to start from scratch again. I think the American coalition is waiting to see what kind of government takes office in India after the elections. If they want to include India into the equation, they might want to see what is ahead. No one can say how all things will go. All I can discuss are possible courses of action. There are different players with different agenda – US wants Bin Laden. ISI wants pro-Pakistan government in Afghanistan. Pakistan wants US out of the region. Taliban wants to rule Pakistan. India wants Jihadis out of Kashmir. Afghanistan wants Americans to stay long enough to help them get back on their feet. Too many players and no one is seeing eye to eye. At this point, India has the least to lose. So I prefer India to stay out of this mess and focus on its future. Whatever happens, will happen. Let us hope for the best.

 

Rajeev, just remember extremists are very few. Compared to those thousands of people in all four provinces who braved and fought on the streets for 2 years for the cause of an independent judiciary in Pakistan.
We are not slippery, we were dealing with Americans since late 1950s, 1960 onwards.

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Umair writes: “We are not slippery, we were dealing with Americans since late 1950s, 1960 onwards.”

I don’t think one can say that Pakistani establishment has been slipper all the way from the start. All the slipperiness started after the Americans left the region in 1989. Until September 2001, the US did not care what Pakistan did with the money and weapons it received from the West. Even until January 20th 2009, the US did not care what Pakistan was doing. Only after that they have realized that they have been duped for a long time. ISI, the notoriously rogue organization has been cleverly managing a double face policy with the Americans – stashing up everything for an asymmetric war with India. Pakistan has been slippery – not allowing anything to settle inside Afghanistan, allowing the Taliban to recover and regroup, preserving most of the foreign jihadists and bilking dollars out of Americans. So in 8 years, no progress was made. And America was run by an idiot during those 8 years who could not tell the spelling difference between Iran and Iraq. But the screws are going to be tightened and I see symptoms of that already. Obama talks the talk and walks the walk. I expect something concrete from him this time. I am hoping that he will nail the militancy infrastructure and establish peace in the region. That is why the Americans have started telling Pakistan that India is not their enemy. Their enemy is within and has been ruling for all these years, allowing things to fall apart in the region. That is going to change. It will be good if Pakistanis welcome that change instead of becoming resistant to it.

 

Umair :

“Pakistan talks to Taliban and is demonized.”

“US says it will talk to Taliban, and dead silence?”

Umair, Taliban are not in US, they are in Pak, if americans hand over Afghanistan to Talibs, they will not lose anything, if Pak handover itself to Taliban there will be a disaster in Pak.

How could you support that talks ?

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@Rajeev, just remember extremists are very few. Compared to those thousands of people in all four provinces who braved and fought on the streets for 2 years for the cause of an independent judiciary in Pakistan.
We are not slippery, we were dealing with Americans since late 1950s, 1960 onwards.
- Posted by Umair

Umair: I am not stranger to living in an environment full of terrorists. I have seen the unmentionables. I know what it is and the subtelties and I do not suggest spit fire on Lahore or Karachi or any other place.
BUT the issues are much bigger–terrorism. Struggle for judiciary is Pakistan’s internal problem.

You need to tackle terrorism, Not just US. All this time US was your friend by choice. You are a war ally by choice. playing victim and throwing on US the whole thing will not help.

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Sikhs pay Rs 20 million in Jizia to Pak Taliban

Islamabad, April 16: Members of Pakistan’s minority Sikh community living in the restive Aurakzai tribal region have paid Rs 20 million as “tax” to the Taliban after militants forcibly occupied some of their homes and kidnapped a Sikh leader.The Taliban had demanded Rs 50 million as ‘Jizia’ – a tax levied on non-Muslims living under Islamic rule – but the militants finally settled for Rs 20 million. After the amount was paid yesterday, the militants vacated the homes they had taken over and released Sikh leader Saiwang Singh, officials in the tribal region near the northwestern city of Peshawar were quoted as saying by the Daily Times newspaper. The officials said the Taliban had announced that the Sikhs were now free to live anywhere in Aurzakzai Agency. The militants also announced they would protect the community, saying that no one would harm them after they had paid Jizia. Sikhs who had left the area would now return to their homes and resume their business, the officials said.The militants had occupied at least 10 homes of Sikhs in Qasimkhel village on Tuesday. About 35 Sikh families have been living in Qasimkhel for many years. The Taliban demand for Jizia was resolved at a jirga or council held yesterday through the efforts of local tribal elders. The militants had said the Sikhs should pay Jizia in accordance with Shariah or Islamic law.

 

Who are the Taliban we are talking of widening their influence in the region?
Sanjeev, I would say the problem is regional now including India. And not just confined to so-called “Af-Pak”.
We need to educate ourselves before we state anyhting else to demonstrate out lack of understanding of the world around us.
Taliban were born out of the clandestine war between CIA and KGB during Soviet occupation of that country. The Taliban today are the same coalition of Mujahideen that defeated the Soviet Army through covert support from CIA. President Jimmy Carter speech is worth listening, Date: 4 JAN 1980;
President Jimmy Carter – Speech on Afghanistan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2Y4t0-_9 MY

Jimmy Carter started a modest funding program to arm ‘Mujahudeen’ later on President Ronald Reagen and CIA Director George Casey tripled the annual budget of Mujahideen. Pakistan Army and ISI was used to wage the war while Americans stood by and they had no problems with it.

Now watch this, all 4 part documentary;

Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan and CIA Intervention Part1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6D20KhOHj BA&feature=related

How were the US and Soviet Union engaged in war, under their noses armed ‘Mujahideen’ resistence fighters were recieving billions of dollar and weapons. Mujahideen trapped heavy Soviet infantry and tanks in warfare in the mountains and valleys and Soviets suffered heavy losses, Stinger missiles were deployed downing Soviet aircraft and helicopters. Afghanistan became a bleeding wound for Moscow and they wanted to just get the hell out of their in a hurry. They left Afhanistan, leaving behind a weak puppet communist regime and fighting raged on for another three years 1989-1992/3. The bulk of ammunition were taken up by the Mujahideen fighters, these same people are the Taliban.

What started by the speech of Jimmy Carter on July 4, 1980 was the begining of the defeat of one super power (Soviet withdraw defeat from Afgh) and deadly attacks on another super power(WTC attacks 911).

Now blaming ISI and Pakistan Army for anything is like the pot calling the kettle black. What did Pakistan do? Why is everything gone wrong in the world blamed on Pakistan?
The Taliban of today were the recipients of multibillion dollar White house budgets and CIA ammunition. Today the entire region is threatened. Pakistan is not responsible for the Taliban problem, there is larger responsibility on the world.
If Soviet couldnt defeat Mujahideen, Pakistan Army is in no mood of getting into a bleeding wound.

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The only solution to these Taliban animals is to finish them off. There can never be any “negotiation” with them, as Umair suggests making them legitimate citizens. As they bring death to non-muslims or non-believers, there has to be a sense of human justice, justice with a sledgehammer vengeance. Drone every one of them.

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Taliban has come up with a clever strategy to spread across Punjab. I had never thought of this. But this strategy will work. This is what Naxalites, Maoists and Communists did in India – go after the rich. If there is poverty and injustice in a feudal system, take out the rich. This is the easiest and guaranteed way to power.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/17/world/ asia/17pstan.html?_r=1&hp

So Taliban has a strategy of taking over Punjab. Once that is done, they own the ISI, military and all of Pakistan. Then it will be easy to take over Afghanistan and even Kashmir. The only problem they are going to face is American resistance. If they had done this five years earlier, they would have been formidable. If Taliban takes over Pakistan, US will wage a war against Pakistan. It is going to be an interesting stage in history. It will be interesting to see how things go from here.

 

@Sikhs pay Rs 20 million in Jizia to Pak Taliban
-posted by azaddp

–Where else in the world is “Jizia” practiced?–does someone knows about it?

If “Jizia”, as I understand is allowed in Islam as a protection money for non-Muslims.

In India, Hafta in Bombay (Maal in Delhi??) and other places is also the protection which mafia/goons collect—not for the same reason though—and is a criminal act.

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Mauryan
It looks interesting to you, for us its just normal routine, we have seen all this all through these years. The stage was set long before, you need to get to the history, how did all this started.
US will wage no war against Pakistan, there is no chance of Taliban ‘taking over’ Pakistan. And what American resistance you are talking about? the one they are putting up from last 8 years?

Afghanistan will always be a bleeding wound for foreign invaders, be it Soviets or Americans.

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http://uk.reuters.com/article/cricketNew s/idUKLH15334620090417

Pakistan kicked off from World cup hosting

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive
 

“There can never be any “negotiation” with them, as Umair suggests making them legitimate citizens”

These same people today who are called Taliban recieved billions of dollars and weapons from CIA when they were part of a ‘colaition of Mujahideen’ who defeated the Soviets and drove them out of Afghanistan. They were friends of Jimmy Carter and Ronald Reagan.
Yesterdays ‘Mujahideen’ are todays ‘Taliban’, let the CIA and USA pay the price of their mistakes. The Soviets were defeated, they left leaving behind a puppt weak communist regime in Afghanistan and due to the US making no appropriate policy changes. This is the mistake US made; not making policy change at the right time.

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http://uk.reuters.com/article/cricketNew s/idUKLH15334620090417

Pakistan kicked off from World cup hosting and Umair thought only we were bashing Pakistan for what it had done in terms of terrorism.

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Pakistani players are very talented, though we wont be able to host the world cup, we are capable of owning it and we did it in 1992 and will do it again.

Morgan said it was not the intention of the ICC to isolate Pakistan or its team from the sport.

“We are determined that Pakistan should not be isolated, it is a very important member of the International Cricket Council, possessing several of the world’s greatest cricketers.”

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Taliban 50km away from Islamabad.
“The Taliban are fast gaining on Pakistan’s federal capital Islamabad. Reports on Tuesday said the Islamic militia is now marching towards Haripur, a district 50 km from Islamabad and the lone remaining buffer territory.
With Swat and the North West Frontier Province firmly in their grip, the Taliban has already overrun Buner district before their advance to Haripur. Besides the Taliban are gaining in newer areas.”

—I think since the Taliban would soon be our neighbours, let’s start calling them ‘freedom fighters’ … What say you???

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Taliban advance another 10 KM towards Islamabad, distance left to reach Delhi= 808KM.
Rather than freedom fighters, I would call them friends of Jimmy Carter and Ronald Reagan, Obama is reaping what earlier presidents have sown.

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The Soviet Army fought for ten years and got humiliated and defeated by the freedom fighters/Taliban, recognizing it as a bleeding wound the Soviets ended the war.
The Pakistan Army doesnt want to sustain any bleeding wounds and has adopted a perfect policy of appeasement and punishment, keep things under control at call costs. For the GHQ in Rawalpindi, the task is simple. Pull out the old case studies and study the files, just avoid the mistakes the Soviets made and all is well. Everything else shall take care of itself.
Let them come, we’ll bring them in the mainstream. Where there is a will, there is a way.

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The US Army is fighting with the Taliban from last 8 years and have reached the same conclusion; unlike Iraq, Aghanistan’s rural insurgency is a devil’s game. The US will soon begin to reach out to ‘moderate Taliban’. This further strengthens Pakistan’s position. Pakistan started negotiating with Taliban from last couple of years and it has brought positive results.

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“Obama is reaping what earlier presidents have sown.”

—Talibani Rice – to cook – Pakistani Khichdi – for Indian’s to relish.

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Umair said to Global watcher:

“There can never be any “negotiation” with them, as Umair suggests making them legitimate citizens”

These same people today who are called Taliban recieved billions of dollars and weapons from CIA when they were part of a ‘colaition of Mujahideen’ who defeated the Soviets and drove them out of Afghanistan. They were friends of Jimmy Carter and Ronald Reagan.
Yesterdays ‘Mujahideen’ are todays ‘Taliban’, let the CIA and USA pay the price of their mistakes. The Soviets were defeated, they left leaving behind a puppt weak communist regime in Afghanistan and due to the US making no appropriate policy changes. This is the mistake US made; not making policy change at the right time.

Response:

Umair, these same Taliban were also helped and harnessed by the ISI, and Pak Army as well, you fail to keep mentioning that to shift the blame. At that time, they were fighting an occupation by the Soviets and perhaps at that time, the struggle was noble, now these same guys, bored, with no work and an idle mind are now becoming the occupiers of Pakistan, there is a huge difference, feel free to recognize that.

Just you watch Umair, mark these words and remember them, when the Taliban come to power in Pakistan, the first thing they are going to do is round up all the educated people and behead them or execute them. This is is how Islam was spread through Europe, especially ancient Syria and Lebanon, the educated people were publically executed in the stadiums.

Umair, you may not ever look at your soccer stadium the same way again. Your Jihadi proxy army Taliban strategic assets are going to start systematically murdering Pakistani’s as being unIslamic. Please do yourself a favor and be willing to reverse your position on legitimizing the Taliban.

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Umair says that the Taliban need to be negotiated with, Umair, Pakistan’s sense of negotiation means surrendering. Pakistani army are used to surrendering, you guys did it in 1971 and now you did it in 2009 in SWAT.

Pakistan can keep surrendering to Taliban. But Pakistan will never negotiate in good faith and keep its end of the bargain with India. You know why? It is better to surrender to extremely violent muslim group, than do something so little as negotiate in honesty with the UnIslamic Indians. Expansion of the Taliban is expansion of Islam to the Pakistani establishment, that is why they do not care to fight the Taliban or whether it takes over Pakistan. To Pakistani’s there is no extremist or moderate muslim, you see, to them there is no difference, because they are all one “UMMAH”. This is why the Americans will soon realize that Pakistan is going to befuddle, drag their feet, extort more money and soon betray them on the War on the Taliban and Al-Qaeda. All that money will not be used to kill the Taliban, but used to prepare future wars and more proxy wars against India.

If the Pak establishment does not change its ways, it may lead to its disintegration, just like Germany. Take that one to heart Umair, Paki’s cannot fight like the Germans did, and Germany still separated into east and west.

Mark my words again, the Russians, U.S. all have an old score to settle with Pakistan and China is all about China they don’t give single damn about you Paki’s. Again all this is preventable if Pakistan quits helping the extremists.

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1.Soviets surrendered to Mujahideen. 1989
2.Americans want to (‘talk to moderate Taliban’) surrender to Taliban. 2009
3.Pakistan Army surrenders to Taliban. 2009

What is the difference there, Pakistan Army is coward and Soviet and US Army is brave?

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Umair writes:
“1.Soviets surrendered to Mujahideen. 1989
2.Americans want to (’talk to moderate Taliban’) surrender to Taliban. 2009
3.Pakistan Army surrenders to Taliban. 2009

What is the difference there, Pakistan Army is coward and Soviet and US Army is brave?”

Soviets got defeated by the American involvement and backing of the Mujahideen effort. It was an American idea to use the Madrasas and fuel radical Islam, along with shoulder launched stinger missiles. Your mujahideen did not invent the stinger missiles. CIA helped the ISI a lot which you are not mentioning. Your military and the mujahideen became foot soldiers for the US. Without the US and its training, Afghanistan would have gone in a different direction. We are not that dumb to take your words at face value Umair. We can think for ourselves.

US wants to talk to moderate Taliban. In my opinion, moderate Taliban is your ISI. And they are talking to them already about giving up the mad obsession with India.

Pakistan army surrenders to Taliban, because your military has grown up relying too much on covert means of warfare where soldiers can hide in civilian uniforms, shoot at innocent people and hide amongst the crowd or run into hideouts. They have never won any war while in uniform. This is the known fact. If you want to provide proof of when your uniformed soldiers won anything, please provide it. You are yet to provide concrete proof for Indian embassies in Afghanistan causing damage to Pakistan. You promised to get back. Now you have quietly dropped it.

Pakistani military will surrender to Taliban in Islamabad. What the Taliban will do is to take the poor on their side by slaughtering feudal lords and distributing land to the peasants. When people switch sides, it will be easy to stage a Maoist revolution and take power. Those who can get out will get out before that.

Wake up Umair. Do not keep defending your point just to keep your dislike of India. Right now, that is not the priority for you. We can see what is coming towards you from a distance. You do not because you are in the middle of it.

 

Umair writes: “The US Army is fighting with the Taliban from last 8 years and have reached the same conclusion; unlike Iraq, Aghanistan’s rural insurgency is a devil’s game. The US will soon begin to reach out to ‘moderate Taliban’. This further strengthens Pakistan’s position. Pakistan started negotiating with Taliban from last couple of years and it has brought positive results.”

Here are the facts. The reasons why no progress was made in Afghanistan after defeating the Taliban are as follows:

1. Rumsfeld.
2. Dick Cheeny
3. US did not want to engage troops on the ground at the crucial time when the Taliban was driven out.
4. Encouraging war lordism. The CIA was given 1 billion dollars to do whatever it wanted. And the CIA gave millions of dollars to war lards like Dostum, Ismael Khan etc and Pashtun tribes, who pocketed everything and strengthened themselves.
5. Hamid Karzai’s government got no backing after a ceremonial Loya Jirga. Elected representatives were side lined by the US. Rumsfeld completely ignored international allies’ requests to expand security beyond Kabul. He did not like the idea of a trained Afghan military. He believed in leaving the “culture” of the land undisturbed and did not want to insert a western style government and military in Afghanistan.
6. Complete ignorance on what Pakistan was doing behind the back. Musharraf and his ISI completely hoodwinked the Americans, showing them what they wanted and were allowed to keep everything hidden.
7. US began to go after Iraq in 2003, which pushed Afghanistan into a distant background. All energy went into Iraq during a crucial period which the Taliban used effectively to regroup and re-arm.
8. US decided to confine its objectives to getting Al Qaeda leaders arrested or eliminated in Afghanistan and did not pursue the Taliban after that.

All these factors contributed to the failure of the mission. So Taliban is still there and has spread into Pakistan. In the past, Pakistan created the Taliban and put it in power in Afghanistan to get “strategic depth” against the Indians. Now Taliban is moving into Pakistan to give its “strategic depth” against the Americans.

US broke that strategic depth in Afghanistan. Now there is a new government in charge in the US and they mean business. They will break this strategic depth of the Taliban inside Pakistan, if that is the best option.

 

Umair writes: “Taliban advance another 10 KM towards Islamabad, distance left to reach Delhi= 808KM.”

You are still stuck in addition? How about subtraction? Ask your teacher in the Madrasa about more math.

Distance may be linear. But to traverse that distance is another thing. This is not a marathon run event where Taliban will reach Islamabad, have a break and continue towards Delhi.

Taliban if its really made of brainy planners, will first spend time taking over Pakistan’s key establishments by surrounding them. It will go after Punjabi heartland. That is the real Pakistan. The rest have no power to have any impact. The NY Times article is an eye opener. They are going to spend time eliminating feudal lords and rich land lords. Once they stage this Maoist “revolution” they will be in charge of Pakistan with its cadres filling up the ISI and the military. Others will simply be executed in a typical brutal fashion. Uniformed soldiers, as usual, will switch sides and become part of Taliban. The name Taliban will be replaced with some other fancy name – Islamic citizen of Pakistan or whatever. Now they would have achieved the needed strategic depth to get at American efforts inside Afghanistan.

This is when the US will turn against Pakistan. Unlike the NW regions of Pakistan, Punjab is a plain. It can be easy target if a war erupts. Do not under-estimate the Americans this time. There is a lot of ego at stake for them. They will not give up this time. And it does not sound well for Pakistan, considering what the Taliban is doing.

 

Mauryan
Good you are learning ,you sound more informed.
Pakistan reverse engineered the Stinger missiles and they are part of inventory of Pakistan Army as ANZA MK1 & ANZA MK2. Indian MiG jets were downed by the same ANZA missiles during Kargil 1999.

You Indians have a serious misperception that Pakistan Army has never won a conflcit. It stems from the East Pakistan war in 1971. Let it be clear Pakistan Armed forces have gone through radical change since then, with German/French submarines, F-16s and other advanced aircraft and Cobra Gunship helicopters & Main Battle Tanks. Followed by a missile and nuclear programme, and a rich combat history around the world in peacekeeping missions, Pakistan Defence is much solid.

Let me assure you one more thing Mauryan, there is not that much hatred in Pakistan against India. Its about your perception.

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@Pakistan kicked off from World cup hosting
- Posted by punjabiyaar

–World cup will go ahead in India, Bangladesh and SriLanka. If Paksianis let it sink properly and wake up next day and think with cool heads, it is not a small thing.
So Umair’s/other bloggers hypothesis : “No cricket in Pakistan–not cricket in anywhere in South Asia”–has been proven wrong.

—But ICC said PCB will be compensated. More money without work.

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With my interactions with Pakistanis on the web, it seems to me that they have resigned to the fact that the Taliban will take over Pakistan. It also seems that most of them seem to foolishly think that once in control, the Taliban will become moderate & mainstream, whereas, everything indicates (check the article below) that once in control, Taliban will prosecute moderate Pakistanis & impose their radical interpretation of Islam, all over Pakistan.
Also it seems, that most Pakistanis are desperately hoping & praying that once Taliban & the extremists take over Pakistan, they set their eyes on India & create havoc there, just like they’ve done in Pakistan.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcclatchy/200904 16/wl_mcclatchy/3214054

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Mauryan
what do you think you are after reading any NY Times article or column ? some kind of self proclaimed fortune teller?
So the Taliban will come to Islamabad, line up the Army selection and recruitment Centre, clear the preliminary tests and qualify te ISSB and will be inducted as ISI officers? dont be ridiculous.

You are still stuck with the Maoists, these are a different lot. Also, tell you what a huge majority of officers and men in Pakistan Armed Forces are pushtun, the Air Officer Command, Northern Air Command located in Peshawar, PAF has its rear-Air HQ in Peshawar. The Taliban are also mostly Pashtun, thats why Pakistan has said they are an ethnic group. Some people are calling them animals.

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@1.Soviets surrendered to Mujahideen. 1989
2.Americans want to (’talk to moderate Taliban’) surrender to Taliban. 2009
3.Pakistan Army surrenders to Taliban. 2009
What is the difference there, Pakistan Army is coward and Soviet and US Army is brave?
- Posted by Umair

—There is one big difference. Soviets fought and lost. Americans fought and thought they have a trustworthy ally in Pakistan–not so obviously–so US is thinking along those lines—can hardly be called “surrender” even after giving them all the discredit–since Americans are here.

BUT Pakistan is brilliant–did not fight at all–even after giving all the credit to poor Paki soldier’s who fight with whatever their worth and army double crossing policy. Pakistan is the worst.

Umair: If you take all the credit for Soviet defeat-as you always have been doing—then you got to take all the discredit for US failure. Else, give an alternative other than bringing Taliban into the national mainstream.
Where are Misters Gilani/Zardari/Kayani/Pasha—not hearing enough these days. Saving energy for India?

@Obama is reaping what earlier presidents have sown.
–Many Pakistanis will only partially agree with you. Along with US, Pakistanis are reaping it each day–both innocents and sometimes Pakistani Army.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

Umair writes: “Let it be clear Pakistan Armed forces have gone through radical change since then, with German/French submarines, F-16s and other advanced aircraft and Cobra Gunship helicopters & Main Battle Tanks. Followed by a missile and nuclear programme, and a rich combat history around the world in peacekeeping missions, Pakistan Defence is much solid.”

Tell me which war your uniformed soldiers won. I am not asking for your military’s inventory. Other militaries have upgraded correspondingly.

“Let me assure you one more thing Mauryan, there is not that much hatred in Pakistan against India. Its about your perception.”

Just in this blog, in one of your replies you have clearly mentioned about South Punjab where the hatred for India is enormous and how the Taliban will be using them. I cannot quantify hatred. But we all know it is there. That is why India keeps getting attacked through periodic insurgency. Kashmir is a good excuse to achieve that.

 

Umair writes: “what do you think you are after reading any NY Times article or column ? some kind of self proclaimed fortune teller? So the Taliban will come to Islamabad, line up the Army selection and recruitment Centre, clear the preliminary tests and qualify te ISSB and will be inducted as ISI officers? dont be ridiculous.”

We can clearly tell that you are an idiot, based on what you write. So I do not expect you to learn anything. But we are intelligent enough to look at various scenarios and predict what could happen. One way or the other, the future for your golden country does not look good. This is not what we wish for you. But it is headed that way.

“You are still stuck with the Maoists, these are a different lot. Also, tell you what a huge majority of officers and men in Pakistan Armed Forces are pushtun, the Air Officer Command, Northern Air Command located in Peshawar, PAF has its rear-Air HQ in Peshawar. The Taliban are also mostly Pashtun, thats why Pakistan has said they are an ethnic group. Some people are calling them animals.”

If your military is made up of Pashtuns, it will be easy for them to merge with the Taliban. They already are. It is very difficult to see the ISI separately from the Taliban now-a-days. They are animals. There is no doubt.

Wish you good luck Umair. You need lot of it. But be rest assured. It will take sometime for the Taliban to wrap itself around the rest of Pakistan and crush it. It needs to do this to survive the American onslaught. If it gets any closer to taking complete control of your country, trust me, the US will dismantle your nation to free it from Taliban. There is a danger of nuclear weapons going into the wrong hands. No one will be talking about it. They will go after it right away. And Pakistan as we know of today, may not exist.

 

Mauryan
Dont get me wrong, the South of Punjab exists of relatively poor cities and is leess richer compared to Urban Lahore or Sialkot where there are sports good factories, Gujranwala electrical appliances and Faislabad where the textile industry is located.
I didnt mean to say that people of South Punjab are holding grenades in their hands ready to cross the border into India. I meant that they are relatively less rich, depend on agriculture. So consequently they are vulnerable to exploitation. Lets raise their life standard so they look forward to a bright future and shun extremism.
I still owe you Baluchistan links of any Indian involvement to destablize it.

Which war has Pakistan Army won?
Answer: Read an independent analysis of 1948 Kashmir war and 1965 war.
Read about Zarb-e-Momin military exercise 1989.
Read about Siachin Glacier combat theatre.
Read about Kargil 1999.
Read about 2001-02 border stand-off.

these were all major conflicts between the countries, Pakistan went on offensives and defenses. Some times initiating the conflicts. If not won, Pakistan certainly has the capability to launch and cripple India severely in any military conflcit.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

@Mauryan
Good you are learning ,you sound more informed.
Pakistan reverse engineered the Stinger missiles and they are part of inventory of Pakistan Army as ANZA MK1 & ANZA MK2. Indian MiG jets were downed by the same ANZA missiles during Kargil 1999.
-by Umair

—This is 100th time copy/paste/needless/came from nowhere/distraction material/hardly any response to any of the posts/back to wasting energy over India to save Taliban brothers……need not be addressed in the form of counting Indian arsenal.

@You Indians have a serious misperception that Pakistan Army has never won a conflcit. It stems from the East Pakistan war in 1971.
–In addition 1965–Pakis “ruling skies” (..lol) and Indian Jawans rulingthe ground in Pakistan/the outskirts of Lahore and the remaining wars including kicking Pakis Army/LeT coalition in Kargil. Working on Paki Army/Taliban coalition???????

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

Mauryan
Now suddenly you are intelligent and I am a stupid?
Just go back previous page and you stated that whole game has multiple players and multiple interests, that it is confusing and will be interesting how things go in future.
No suddenly you are Mr. know-it-all?
Try to educate yourself before you state anything that demonstrate your lack of understanding of the world around you.
Dont call me a millitant sympathizer, we dont support any millitants in Paksitan at all. And I told you there is no Taliban threat ‘taking over’ Pakistan as you are suggesting.

Do you know how to play chess, you need to plan every move in advance and trap your opponent.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Pakistani/Indian blogger:
Umair:
Much ink has been spilled over Taliban moving towards Islmabad, which if the reports are OK, is true. I am failing to understand how Taliban is moving–vehicles etc—in 1000s or 100s or what–how it is allowed to move forward. obviously there is security 50-100Km around Islamabad. Does security let these gun carrying, clearly labeled (?) bunch of individuals go past them. Is there a frustration in soldiers or a smile on their face. You live in Islamabad, right? I assume you must have seen this show or is it unsafe. Where are they headed towards–some tents, hotels or barracks. What is the plan behind allowing smooth movement? You said #s are few–how many are these? Is govt talking to them ?

Above all, is Pakistan conducting their marriage with Punjabi terrorists and send them into POK for honeymoon?

Is it some old dirty tactic of Pakistan of using these guys against India, especially during these election times.

This has finally demonstrated that if Pakis cannot handle the terrorists which hurt Paki innocents, forget about expecting them about terrorists which hurt India.

But I agree with Umair that Taliban are not animals. Animals are better they have a reason to attack unlike here.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

Rajeev I live in Rawalpindi and go to Islamabad every day for work 25 KM distance, I travel on the roads, it is generally safer. Only the last week for the first time the traffic right in front of the road of ISI HQ in Islamabad has been routed and that front area is blocked for security reasons. The diplomatic compunds and 5 star hotels are well guarded as well as rest of the city. Rawalpindi itself is home to Army HQ and is already a military garrison city. Taliban cant even think of coming near Pindi/Isloo as we call these twin cities with affection.
However, security generally is good. Islambad has seen some attacks recently, not because of security is poor but bcoz some times terrorists manage to sneak in and also its almost impossible to stop a suicicde bomber.

Its not like Taliban moving in their cars, its the areas far away from islamabad and located in frontier province where there is some Taliban gaining influence. But rest assured, security forces are taking them on. And Pakistan is so far in control of the situation. I agree there is a serious threat to Pkaistan. But I am confident proper steps are being taken to address and eliminate the threat.
Also, there are no nefarious plans against India or to sabotage elections there or create problem in LOC or Kashmir. Everything is ok.

And where do you live Rajeev?

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

“Which war has Pakistan Army won?”

“Read an independent analysis of 1948 Kashmir war and 1965 war.”

1948, Pakistan captured all of the unprotected Kashmir, when India steps in Pakis had to flee, had not Nehru idiot enough to go UN, all of the Kashmir would be with India.

1965, war Pakistan captured some parts of India, India also captured some parts. Same mistake again and UN interferred

“Read about Zarb-e-Momin military exercise 1989.”

What did it achieve ?

“Read about Siachin Glacier combat theatre.”

Indians hold it till date and Pakis did biggest intelligence blunder, ordered Arctic gear from the supplier who used to supply gear to Indian.

“Read about Kargil 1999.”

Yeah bravest Islamic army denied to accept bodies, saying they were not their soldiers. India regained everything back.

“Read about 2001-02 border stand-off.”

Pakis wanted to start the war so that Taliban can regain in Afghanistan, Americans and Indians sensed it and did not attack, what does it has to do with the bravery of Pakis ?

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive
 

Umair:

– But why Taliban are they moving in Islamabad’s direction, their motive? I see no plan.

–Everything is not OK Umair. Newspapers in Pakistan are full of concern.
I saw a video clip longtime ago (before 26/11), a Taliban guy saying that they can control Pakistan whenever they want. I thought he is kidding. Obviously not. We know little about their capabilities. There is not a collapse of Pak, but things wrt Taliban have moved faster than anyone’s guess. Unless you know what your guys are doing to prevent this, this is a huge problem. I am so puzzled with Pakistan. I am mean they are shooting your people dead in NWFP as they will.

See this recent execution:—in NWFP I guess.
“Taliban execute man, woman in Hangu”
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn -content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/nwfp  /taliban-execute-man-woman-in+hangu–szh

–But clearly Taliban/Punjabi Terrorist groups will be allowed to collaborate and it is understandable what their projects are.

–Quote from an article in Dawn “Fighting back is difficult because we have never developed a consensus on an alternative. Jinnah’s Pakistan versus Ziaul Haq’s Pakistan – having never quite figured out what we want to be, we now face the very possibility that the Taliban may decide for us.”

@And where do you live Rajeev?
Currently, I live close to Michigan USA.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

Umair,
I meant to say:
Currently, I live close to Detroit, Michigan USA.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

Rajeev
Actually its not as if Taliban are literally moving towards Islamabad. Its just something symbolic people associate with the security problem. The areas where the Taliban are creating a law and order situation are about 60-100 KM far from the capital. But Islamabad is not facing any danger as if it is going to fall.
Everybody outside Pakistan is very concerned about Pakistan. Pakistan has its problems like many other countries, but still we will overcome them.

Just read this article:
Pakistan, & the Myth of Islamic Terrorism by Rakesh Saxena

http://www.odidia.com/index.php?page=pak istan-the-myth-of-islamic-terrorism

You will know what is the real problem. Its only the lack of opportunity and underdevelopment, poverty that is causing the problem. Once you read it let your views be known.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

PAKISTAN & THE MYTH OF ISLAMIC TERRORISM
by Rakesh Saxena

An excellent article for someone who wants to grasp whats the real problem and why Taliban elements are gaining advantage of the situation. It shows the problem is solveable.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

No possibility of Talibanisation in Pakistan: PTI
http://www.geo.tv/4-17-2009/40073.htm

This is what former Cricket Captain turned politician Imran Khan said.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Umair writes:
“Which war has Pakistan Army won?
Answer: Read an independent analysis of 1948 Kashmir war and 1965 war.
Read about Zarb-e-Momin military exercise 1989.
Read about Siachin Glacier combat theatre.
Read about Kargil 1999.
Read about 2001-02 border stand-off. ”

1948 Kashmir war:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Pakist ani_War_of_1947#Operation_Easy.3B_Punch_ link-up

I do not see any reference to Indian general signing the declaration of defeat. Pakistani websites claim India begged for a ceasefire. But that is not a neutral source of info. I also looked at Indian sites. Wikipedia is relatively neutral. India captured two thirds of Kashmir. Pakistan held one third. Tell me which number is bigger.

1965 war: Here is Wikipedia reference again:

“The Indian army was in possession of 710 mile² (1,840 km²) of Pakistani territory and the Pakistan army held 210 mile² (545 km²) of Indian territory. The territory occupied by India was mainly in the fertile Sialkot, Lahore and Kashmir sectors,[17] while Pakistani land gains were primarily in deserts opposite Sindh and in Chumb, in the northern sector.[18]”

Tell me which area is more.

Zarb e Momin: This was not a war, but a simple military exercise.

Siachien Glacier: Wikipedia reference again.
“The expeditions are also meant to show to the international audience that Indian troops hold “almost all dominating heights” on the important Saltoro Ridge and, to show that Pakistani troops are not within 15 miles (24 km) of the 43.5-mile (70 km) Siachen Glacier”

India holds the advantage at Siachien currently. India can bleed longer than Pakistan.

Kargil War: Wikipedia again.

“By the end of the war, India had resumed control of all territory south and east of the Line of Control, as was established in July 1972 as per the Shimla Accord.”

This means India won this war. Where did Pakistani military win?

Border stand offs do not count as war victories.

In all, Umair, there is not an iota of information to show that Pakistan won any of these wars. So kindly accept the truth. You asked me to refer to independent sources and I did. Now it is your turn. Provide clear proof from respected international references that Pakistani military defeated Indian forces in any war.

Also I am still waiting for your proof (non Pakistani reference) about Indian embassy activities from Afghanistan that have sabotaged Pakistan.

 

Umair writes: “Taliban cant even think of coming near Pindi/Isloo as we call these twin cities with affection.”

The article that appears in The Guardian says otherwise:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/apr  /18/islamabad-war-islamic-militants

 

Here is something more to chew on. This appeared in a Pakistani news paper website.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp  ?page=20094\18\story_18-4-2009_pg1_12

 

Its only a handful who are desperate to disturb the peace in Pakistan, Islamabad is surely at the forefront and is resilient. We have to win and we will win InshAllah.
Pakistan Zindabad!

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 
 

Umair writes: “A quagmire of indecision”

Do you now agree that your country is in deep trouble?

You have gone silent on my references that showed your claims on Pak military victory over India as bogus.

You have quietly dropped on the promise to list the seven Indian embassies in Afghanistan. There are only two – in Jalalabad and in Kandahar.

You have also dropped the reference to destabilization activities emerging from Indian embassies in Afghanistan, that have caused problems for Pakistan. And I do not want a Pakistani reference. It has to be a neutral one.

I am not hopeful you will provide the necessary answers. Still let me ask you.

Do you agree that India is not the enemy? Or you still want to cling to the emotional stance that India is the enemy?

There is nothing wrong in coming forward to accept the reality Umair. If an ordinary citizen like you can be so ego-centric in your attitude towards India, how is it possible to change the attitude of an entire system? Somewhere the process has to begin. If every decision is made with countering India as the main goal, it will lead your country to nowhere. This is the obsession that has destroyed your country. Your leaders have squandered away all advantages and money by going mindless in teaching India a lesson. They have spent all their energy all these years focusing on non-constructive issues of distraction and have fallen on their backs. You as a citizen should question them. Do not fall for their brain washing propaganda. If India is such an evil Hindu country, it would not be recognized as an emerging economic power, sitting in the G20 meeting. It has made progress despite the odds. Acknowledge that and see what can be done from your side to destroy this myth of an evil Indian monster. There is none. Tell your leaders that.

 

Umair’s responses when he has none are typically:

-Zindabad pakistan
-Murdabad india
-Inshallah
-Inshallah Umma

Umair, Pakistan only lost all its wars against India, please do not vomit out anymore Pakistani propaganda, you just weaken and cheapen your words here. And now, the Taliban are going to make Pakistan surrender

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive
 

Quoting an excerpt for The Dawn editorial, written by a noted journalist Irfan Hussain:

“In some ways, we are holding a begging bowl in one hand, and a raised middle finger in the other. If we had a third hand, it would be holding a gun to our head.”

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive
 

Atleast most of the Indian political parties have a manifesto or publicize one!
The People Party,here in Pakistan, for 30 years has had a manifesto of Food,Clothing and Shelter and whenever it can come in Power which has been for over 15 years it has robbed people of that!!
The PML Nawaz( the Messiah!!) just makes me be so cynical.There slogan was Reduce Debt,Improve Country! What they did not tell us, when we contributed to this campaign was they were reducing their debt not of the country!!!
In pakistan, the media doesnt question the parties about their manifesto’s which is why we have a political system made up of individuals rather than institutions! Much to the Army’s liking!
The election Commision in Pakistan take their dictation from whoever is in power and the Supreme Court just looks the other side. So much for socalled judicial activism. It was done only to restore the Chief Justice, who wanted his perks restored??

Posted by Suleman Maniya,Goteborg,Sweden | Report as abusive
 

Whether India is an enemy or not is not clear, however India certainly is not a friend as yet.
Pakistan was used by the USA during the Soviet war, now the tide will turn. Taliban are not our problem, they were funded by the US to fight USSR. Let the US take care of Taliban, Pakistan is only concerned with protection of its own interests.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Suleman
Pakistan has changed a lot, I can see that you might not have been in touch with Pakistan for years. But let me tell you Benazir Bhutto before her death had brought up her party’s menifesto before the 2008 election, so did the PML(N). One thing needs to be understood, Pakistan was used by big powers like the US specially to furhter its regional interests. That way Pakistan was unable to build a strong economy.
Today we have to stand firm and united as Pakistanis doent matter from Islamabad like me or Karachiite like you. We are all Pakistanis and lets not give anyone the opportunity to exploit our weakness.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Global watcher
If Pakistan won all its war against india, than why is it that Pakistan still today is a challenge for India? Pakistan still today has nuclear weapons and 7th largest Army and ask your leaders what is the most immediate threat to India, they will tell you.
You guys come out of the superiority complex, in Kargill you were kicked. Again in 20022 border stand off you were not able to move an inch closer to the international border despite initiating the build up of forces. After Mumbai you guys went crying to the UN security council to have some organizations banned, still you never honour the UN resolutions on Kashmir.

I am not your history teacher to teach you Pakistan’s military victories over India. The history is there if you guys want to learn. If still you want to mess with us, we are here to teach you a lesson.
Also just remember , India still is officially enemy. no 1 so far.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

I think people like umair, they are paid by ISI/fundamentalist. Their job is spread confusion over internet. To spread fundamentalist propaganda.

I am sure he will get beating from his employer as he is failed in his job.

He is also the same like his other brethren terrorist. He is a cyber terrorist.

Posted by vineet | Report as abusive
 

Interacting with Pakistanis on the web, I can clearly see why Pakistan has become a ‘Failed State’. If, seemingly educated Pakistanis are so bigoted, delusional & misinformed, I can only imagine, what the scores of illiterate Pakistanis would be like. No wonder, that country is going down the gutter, in a rush!

It seems to me, that no matter how substantiated, verifiable & certifiable, are the facts presented to them, Pakistanis are just not interested in accepting the truth. They want to keep living in denial, in their own fictional land of fantasia, with their own grossly distorted version of history.

As per most Pakistanis: 1) India has never recognized Pakistan as an independent country. 2) India has always had imperialistic designs for Pakistan. 3) In all wars fought, India invaded Pakistan & the brave Pakistani army fought back Indian aggression & won all wars. 4) The break-up of Pakistan in 71 was planned by India. 5) India commits atrocities on it’s minorities. 6) India is economically worse than Pakistan. 7) There are hundreds of separatist movements going on in India. 8) India is planning to break-up Pakistan again & then invade it.
…and the list goes on & on….

Most Pakistanis never accept their own mistakes & faults & would rather just conveniently blame everything on others (US, India, Israel). Everything is a conspiracy against them to take over their land. They never accept the genocide of 3 million civilians, by their brave army in East Pakistan, nor do they acknowledge, fighting a proxy war in India, for decades, in which thousands of civilians have been killed.

It seems that most Pakistanis are either living in a delusional past (we ruled you India 100000000 years etc etc) or in a fictional future (we’ll defeat India & the US & rule the world again etc etc). They don’t seem to give a darn about their present & that’s exactly why, their future is very dark. So, my message to Global Watcher, Mauryan, Ravi etc., is, trying to change the thinking Pakistanis like this Umair fellow here, is an exercise in futility & an absolute waste of your precious time. For them, India will be enemy # 1, even when the Taliban is lining them up on a street, to behead them. As a wise man once said “You can’t reason with the ignorant or the insane” and in my view, most Pakistanis have certainly become, BOTH!

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive
 

The pathological liar writes: “Whether India is an enemy or not is not clear, however India certainly is not a friend as yet.”

Friendship needs two parties. It cannot be one sided. Have Pakistanis tried to be friendly with Indians? No. Why should we be friendly to you when you celebrate your terrorists coming in to our country and killing out people for some delusional ideology?

“Pakistan was used by the USA during the Soviet war, now the tide will turn.”

Again you started lying. Pakistan jumped in eagerly with the US with the greed for weapons and political support to fight a never ending proxy war with India. And the US, until now allowed that. It helped you feed that monster in your belly. It left once its job was done. Your country bred that monster further and now it has started eating your guts.

“Taliban are not our problem, they were funded by the US to fight USSR. Let the US take care of Taliban, Pakistan is only concerned with protection of its own interests.”

BS. Taliban did not exist during the entire war with the Soviet Union in Afghanistan and its eventual collapse. Taliban became an alternative to the warring tribes who reduced Afghanistan to rubble further. And Pakistan helped groom this monster in order to take control of Afghanistan. Your leaders called it as having a friendly government in Afghanistan that provided strategic depth against your traditional enemy India. And your country is the first one to recognize Taliban government in Kabul and had diplomatic relationship with it. The US did not care what you did. Your ISI and military provided weapons, logistics and soldiers to fight the other Afghan war lords in the north. Do not lie. You lose your credibility entirely. You simply ducked under the table when I provided you with neutral references and challenged you to counter me with similar references. You maintained silence for sometime and now are back again starting from ground zero. This means only one thing. You are fixated in your mind about whatever you believe and what you have been fed with.

It is interesting to see that almost the whole country of Pakistan has become like Umair. They have been living on lies and are consumed by it. These are symptoms of a country that is about to fall. The first symptom is a strong belief in lies.

 

Mortal writes: “It seems to me, that no matter how substantiated, verifiable & certifiable, are the facts presented to them, Pakistanis are just not interested in accepting the truth. They want to keep living in denial, in their own fictional land of fantasia, with their own grossly distorted version of history.”

I was not convinced of mass hysteria and psychology until I see Pakistanis now. All they need is a leader like Hitler. And they will become animals completely. Realize how dangerous it is to let these people with Nuclear weapons. Hatred is a worse than even the nukes and they have begun to boil with hatred. Our leaders should work with the US and others to dismantle the nuclear infrastructure in this rogue nation. As they burn, these nukes are going to catch fire and explode from within.

 

Mauryan writes: “Our leaders should work with the US and others to dismantle the nuclear infrastructure in this rogue nation. As they burn, these nukes are going to catch fire and explode from within.”

Trust me, the US has been preparing a contingency plan for that day, for a long time. I had read an article back in 2002 about joint exercises being conducted frequently, by a special task force, consisting of Americans, Indians & Israelis, in the eventuality of Pakistani Nukes falling in the hands of extremists. The world is watching Pakistan’s nuclear facilities, without blinking an eyelid.

Mauryan writes: “I was not convinced of mass hysteria and psychology until I see Pakistanis now. All they need is a leader like Hitler. And they will become animals completely”

The mass hysteria, the vindictiveness & the hateful ideology has been ingrained in the Pakistani mind for decades. Right from the 1st grade text-books in schools, up to the venomous speeches & sermons in madrasaas & mosques. What can you say about the psyche of a country, which considers barbaric & ruthless invaders like Ghauri & Ghaznavi as heroes, so much as to even name their missiles after them. Ironically, today the descendants of those heroes (the Taliban) are invading Pakistan itself but the delusional ignoramuses that Pakistanis have become, most of them are still in denial.

There are some very good, moderate & tolerant Pakistanis like Ahmed Rashid, Asma Jahangir & Pervez Hoodhbhoy etc. who get it right but I’m afraid, they form a very minor segment of the Pakistani society and won’t be able to stop this tsunami of extremism that will consume all of Pakistan, eventually.

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive
 

Umair:
April 19th, 2009 9:51 am GMT, you write
“Whether India is an enemy or not is not clear, however India certainly is not a friend as yet.”

25 minutes later (April 19th, 2009 10:16 am GMT) you write:
“Also just remember , India still is officially enemy. no 1 so far.”

You are not clear about India. You feel it is patriotic to shout against India!!!–everyuthing is bad. Try to find soemthing “Good” out if Taliban.

–Also you think that Taliban is not pakistan problem–and why is that–strategic depth/!!!!—-this is Pakistan’s binggest problem. THe fact is Taliban is Pak’s problem more than it is US’s, which is 2 continents away. Perhaps you have the luxry to stay clear of Taliban and are lucky not to live under Talibanized Pakistan, so far.

Good luck

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

@Hatred is a worse than even the nukes and they have begun to boil with hatred.”
- Posted by Mauryan

–Mauryan, you have been on these blogs shared ur thoughts with pakistani and other bloggers. You have tried to reason with pakistanis & have hit ur head against their wall of ideology based on anti-Hindu religious intolerance/anti-India-pro-Taliban ideology/conspiracy theories/take all the credit for throwing Soviets out & blame US for all the problems in Pak/shamelessly telling that Pakistan-ISI is doing anti-India activities in Mumbai. These bloggers are hopefully the over-exagerated version of Pakistani people, but do do you still think Indians hate Pakistanis more than the other way around?

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

Rajeev writes: “do you still think Indians hate Pakistanis more than the other way around?”

I wouldn’t generalize that all Indians hate Pakistanis. But I am sure there is a substantial number of close minded people on our side too – The Thackerays, Narendra Modis, the Advanis and their followers. The only advantage is that they are not as militant as the groups inside Pakistan, who are almost trained to fight like commandos. Our diversity and democratic system have kept these war lords at bay from exploiting the public sentiments. And I am glad that we have atheists, Dalits, Communists and Congressmen who balance out their thrust.

Our frustration has been that the Americans have completely ignored the reality in the region and have gone to bed with the wrong people in bringing peace to this region. This has also whipped up anti-American sentiments in our population.

I worry for our moderate Muslims after Mumbai. I read in NY times that many well to do middle class Muslims are denied renting apartments in Mumbai. I’d like to protest this somewhere. We need to do better in treating our citizens for their rights. But that is a different topic.

In short, I do believe that there are hate mongers inside our country too. Right now, we have control over them.

 

Rajeev,

Sorry, I don’t think I gave you a clear answer. I believe we have an equal number of people inside India who hate Pakistanis to the core. Mind you India is 8 times more populated. So that makes is about 12%.

What I worry about is that this population might grow more militant and trigger Islamic upsurge inside India. This is something the ISI would love to exploit. And these groups might pressure the government to do stupid things. We must campaign somewhere hard to contain these elements in India who are waiting for an opportunity to use hatred as a quick means to power grabbing. Hate will burn anyone. I’d love to sign up extradition treaty with Pakistan and send Bal Thackarey, Uddhav Thackaeray, and other hate mongers to Pakistan. They can do whatever they want with these guys. I’d like to see them in the same jail cell with Dawood Ibrahim.

 

@Rajeev,
I wouldn’t generalize that all Indians hate Pakistanis. But I am sure there is a substantial number of close minded people on our side too – The Thackerays, Narendra Modis, the Advanis and their followers. The only advantage is that they are not as militant as the groups inside Pakistan, who are almost trained to fight like commandos. Our diversity and democratic system have kept these war lords at bay from exploiting the public sentiments. And I am glad that we have atheists, Dalits, Communists and Congressmen who balance out their thrust.”

–I do not want to rake up the old discussion. My point of asking the question was that I rememebered once we had one intense discussion over the Kashmir issue and you said something along the lines which made it sound as if more Indians hate Pakistanis than do Pakisanis towards India. Population-wise, it is not the absolute #s. But I got ur point.

Moving on, did you say the recent development–

http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_deta il.asp?Id=21615

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

Rajeev writes: “Moving on, did you say the recent development–

http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_deta il.asp?Id=21615″

This demand seems to confine the rules to the Malakand region only. It depends upon how the Pakistani leaders play them after the rule is implemented. If it is left internal to Pakistan, I think the dust will settle. But the Al Qaeda and Afghan Taliban issues will not be allowed to settle by the US. They would push Pakistan’s government to go in there and take them out. That is when the Taliban will decide to take over the power in entire Punjab first and control the situation from there. Balochistan is already in their pocket.

 

Rajeev,

I take my comment back. This Washington Post articles says otherwise. Looks like Taliban is aiming high.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con tent/article/2009/04/19/AR2009041901731. html?hpid=topnews

 

@Rajeev,
I take my comment back. This Washington Post articles says otherwise. Looks like Taliban is aiming high.”
–by Mauryan

Mauryan: I am just waiting for counter attack by “Pakistani Army” OR another deal by Pakistani establishment. One of the two.

Yes u are right, it is something big. This is fundamentalism movement sweeping across the nation and has Mullahs, terrorists, Taliban sharing their common goal of fanatic Islamic Pakistan where Qazi not CJ decides—the worst possible scenario that a sane Pakistani would wish for. This has shadowed LongMarch, so soon so easily. LongMarch was for judiciary and democracy this is also over those issues to make sure everything won in LongMarch is lost. These extremists/terrorists of all shades including fanatic Mullahs are part of these tide and want to turn Islamic republic of Pakistan into Fanatic Republic of Taliban. Others have no say in this.

Quote “Speaking to thousands of followers in an address aired live from Swat on national news channels, cleric Sufi Mohammed bluntly defied the constitution and federal judiciary, saying he would not allow any appeals to state courts under the system of sharia, or Islamic law, that will prevail there as a result of the peace accord signed by the president Tuesday.”

And in Islamabad in the famous Lal Masjid:
“Mohammed’s dramatic speech echoed a rousing sermon in Islamabad on Friday by another radical cleric, Maulana Abdul Aziz, who appeared at the Red Mosque in the capital after nearly two years in detention and urged several thousand chanting followers to launch a crusade for sharia nationwide.”

Aziz was detained by Pakistani security forces during the siege after famous operation by Pakistani Army in July 2007. HE WAS CAPTURED WHILE DRESSED IN A BURKA :-) He used the disguise in an attempt to elude security forces. So this thing has been cooking for a while and now everything is falling in place.

There is no way other than giving these fanatics/terrorists/Taliban the same medicine what they give to others. That works the best. Good luck Pakistanis.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

Rajeev writes: “HE WAS CAPTURED WHILE DRESSED IN A BURKA ”

That also happens to be the traditional uniform for Pakistani army. Umair will feel really insulted that a non-state actor used the prestigious Pakistani military uniform typically used to escape from real wars. Umair recently posted his army’s slogan which translates thus:

BEARD, BURQA and BEND OVER.

 

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