India launches Israeli-made satellite for eyes in the sky

April 20, 2009

India launched an Israeli-made spy satellite on Monday that will help it keep a close eye on its borders stretching from Pakistan in the west to China in the north and east.

The launch is significant for several reasons. First off, the all-weather advanced satellite that the Israelis themselves use for surveillance on nations such as Iran is an eye in the sky that Indian security planners have been demanding for long. India has its own sophisticated satellite imaging programme that gives pretty high resolution pictures, but, as a defence scientist once told me, they tended to go a bit blind in bad weather, especially during the monsoon.

The Israeli satellite is supposed to be an all-seeing all-weather platform that at a height of 550 kms lets you see things like a motorbike on the street. New Delhi apparently asked the Israelis to speed up the satellite after the Mumbai attacks in November when gunmen arrived on the shores of the country’s financial capital in boats.

The idea obviously would be to watch the borders, both land and sea on the west. But satellites such as these can also tell you about troop movements. Logically any big movement on the border with China would fall under its footprint.

Secondly, the launch underscores the tightening defence links between India and Israel, which, in the space of 17 years when India gave diplomatic recognition to Israel, stand transformed. Israel is India’s second biggest defence supplier, behind Russia which had long enjoyed a virtual monopoly.

For Israel, India is the biggest arms market.

Israel is also giving India the Phalcon Airborne Warning and Control System, a force multiplier seen as so strategic that the Americans leaned on Tel Aviv to abort a similar deal with China.

It is not just a one-way street. Last January, the Israelis wanted to launch their military satellite like the one that went up on Monday. They chose the Indians to launch it, in a show of confidence  in the Indian rocket. More significantly reports at the time said the Israeli satellite was meant for reconnaissance over Iran, causing irritation in Tehran which has had long standing ties with New Delhi.

But the ground has been shifting since the mid 1990s, especially after India’s Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party  took power and reached out to Israel, seeking its expertise in a range of areas especially high-tech capabilities to fight militants.

For years India, home to one of the world’s biggest Muslim populations, had shunned any public dealings with Israel, and stood firmly behind the Arab bloc in its long running dispute with the Jewish state.  But the BJP said India and Israel were natural allies and set about making up for the lost decades.

The Congress, which had traditionally followed a pro-Arab posture, continued the policy of deepening engagement with Israel when it took power five years ago and indeed has fast-tracked arms supplies from that country to meet the security challenges.

There also seems to be a great deal of public support for closer ties with Israel. A poll said to have been ordered by the Israeli Foreign Ministry found that Israel enjoyed the greatest support in India, ahead of the United States, Russians and Mexicans

[India launches Israeli-made satellite on Monday and file picture of protest in Kashmir against Israeli strikes in Gaza]

 

 

 
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Comments

Sanjeev:

But the ground has been shifting since the mid 1990s, especially after India’s Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party took power and reached out to Israel

That is falling in to the usual Hindu-Zionist linkage trap and is a misnomer. The facts might be slightly different, Sir.

You perhaps forgot that it was PVN Rao, a Congress PM, who started India’s diplomatic relations with Israel. And it was done, as many thought at that time, to get a World bank loan that India so desperately needed then. The Zionist lobby in the US was supposed to help India at the World Bank. But the relationship moved to defence cooperation within Rao’s era itself.

BJP only continued what was started by the Congress party.

 

Now where are those who claim India does not pose a threat to Pakistan? For Pakistan, acquiring an AWACS(Air Borne Warning and Control System) from Swedish/European sources and further stregthening defense ties with China should now be a top priority. It should include cooperation with Iran as well.
India was already using Israeli made drones one of which was shot down by a Pkaistani F-16 during 2001-02 border standoff. But theis Indo-Israeli collaboration is a strategic threat to Pakistan which needs to be neutralized in the long run.
As in the words of former Israeli PM David Ben Gurion, Pakistan is a friend of Arabs and an enemy of Israel, and that Israel should destroy Pakistan by all means and plans in disguise. Pakistan cannot throw a blind eye to this development.
However, US and Israel always had such advanced technology and it did not deter Pkaistan from making nuclear weapons and detonating them. Pakistan also successfully protected its nuclear sites from any nuclear atatck from Israel in the mid and late 80s due to a capable an dvigilant Air Force. But matching this sophisticated technology should be Pkaistan’s top priority.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

From a preservation and defense point of view, this is a very positive first step to maintaining cutting edge detection. Since Mumbai, there is a greater demand than ever from the votership to maintain Indian territorial integrity and prevent terrorism of any kind on Indian soil.

The satellite while, a good start, is a strong detection tool, but that must be backed up by offensive parity in terms of long range, mid and short range tactical non-nuclear weapons. India should also leverage Russia to stockpile an immense armament of Vacuum and and Thermobaric Ordinances and mate that technology to India’s Brahmos, Hypersonic Cruise Missile.

Diplomacy, with India and the neighbours, it has to deal with, namely Pakistan and China, after all, is the most powerful weapon, not technology. Diplomacy is only the most powerful weapon, if it is backed up with a credible ability to confidently inflict maximum damage.

India also needs a very robust defense shield against China and Pakistan as it is going to fall to the Taliban in the foreseeable future. In a show of solidarity to maintain democratic regional dominance and strengthening existing security structures, India should also provide the U.S. and Russia with military bases to maintain a credible ability to flatten non-democratic religious and extremist based institutions, whose aim is to threaten inclusive and democratic societies. Russia has a way to go in this regard and this would be better facilitated if the NATO member nations could find a way to bring India AND Russia into the NATO family.

Religious based Terrorism needs to be Policed collectively by nations and India is one piece of attaining this puzzle. India has come a long way in its 7000 years of history, overcoming many obstacles such as the bloodiest occupation in human history by the Mughals and the British Raj.

Being the largest democracy in the world, it can only remain that way, if appropriate defensive and offensive measures are taken to keep it many notches ahead of the curve from those which would like to see its destruction.

It is a very positive development to see Israel, India, the US and Russia to co-operate and collaborate militarily to stay far ahead of religious based structures which hate and deplore the rights of the individual to practice choice, free will, seek happiness and thrive in his or her own way.

To top this all off, India needs to further increase its Nationalistic sentiment and couple that with increasing size of its army by millions, especially with Pakistan on the verge of destabilization and disintegration, India, for its own protection may in the near future, need to temporarily occupy parts of Pakistan to keep Islamicist Terrorists away from its borders.

In short, as the Taliban makes more inroads to Pakistan, India should continue to make large and significant technical upgrades to all parts of its defensive and offensive capabilities to keep stability in the subcontinent.

Only a highly technical, grossly overwhelming show of superiority, force and offensive defensive capability in all facets of India’s, army navy and marines will aggressive Religious based terrorists and non-state actors be made to walk to the edge of a cliff.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive
 

@Sanjeev,

Thank you for doing such a good job at moderation. We are grateful for your insightful topics, which are rife with information and different points of view. While I commend your ability to deliver great topics, it would be refreshing for your to take a stand on an issue once in a while. Too often, western media are shy on taking a stand on basic things like human rights. While you do a great job on providing a forum for discussion, you have to realize that on the flip side, where countries that do not provide a forum such as yours, the reporters in the those countries do not shy away from taking a stand on a position and making it known with religious undertones and even go so far as to voice even silence any voice which does not conform to their pro-religious stance. I am glad to see that you allow all voices to be heard, thanks. Thank you again for doing a great job for providing an insightful forum.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive
 

I am glad to see India using hitech means to protect its borders and interior. They should also try to build unmanned planes, blimps etc which will help watch terrorist movements across the border. Things should also be set up on the ground that detects vibrations and alerts soldiers. Hitech is the only way to fight Islamic terrorism. Both Israel and India face Islamic terrorism. So their defense co-operation is a natural evolution. Hopefully Mumbai style problems can be minimized from here on.

 

Liar writes: “But theis Indo-Israeli collaboration is a strategic threat to Pakistan which needs to be neutralized in the long run.”

When criminals get more sophisticated, those who are in their vicinity have to upgrade their monitoring systems. India is sitting next to a criminal state. So it is setting up the right kind of monitoring systems. As the criminals upgrade, we will upgrade correspondingly. But don’t worry. You have the Taliban taking over your country. They might ban cars and force everyone to ride the donkey. So worry about them first. Let progressive nations do their things to keep their territories safe.

 

Mauryan the last thing India would be is a ‘progressive nation’. Not after the rising HIV AIDS, abject poverty where 25% of its population comprising of Dalit low caste Hindus living in abject poverty. rising hindu fundamentalism and communal violence, where massacres of muslims take place, have you forgotten the killing of christians in Orrissa last year?
You guys have some serious progress to make.
And dont be too happy, India made the bomb so did Pakistan. Its only a matter of time before we match you guys in capability and exceed.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

As expected, Pakistanis seem to be turning green & red, over the close relations between India & Israel. The truth is that Pakistan has played a humongous role in bringing these countries closer. Now, foolishly, Pakistani ignoramuses are talking about getting similar technology from their Chinese masters, while their country is on the precipice of bankruptcy & their Government is busy perfecting the art of ‘Begging’ from the ‘Friends of Pakistan’. It’s all quite amusing!

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive
 

Sanjeev,
Indian satellite industry will welcome any and every country including Israel, Iran or even pakistan for that matter, to use its launching technology. American aid money to Pak reaches china in the form of payment towards military hardware china supplies Pak. In turn, china buys the Treasury Securities from US for safe keeping its surplus cash. The point is trade and business is more important to India and any appeasement of other countries remains more academic and less practical in the contemporary world. World knows india is more than a software giant. The obscenely expensive satellite technology is getting competitive thanks to the entry of india; and with Indias lowest charges, cash strapped Israel naturally prefers Indian business.

Set against a backdrop of growing Islamist militancy and economic insecurity, fears are growing that the current emerging cleavage between fundamentalist and secular citizens of Pakistan may lead to civil unrest. Spy satellite launch is irrelevant to the context.

 

Liar writes: “Now where are those who claim India does not pose a threat to Pakistan?”

I am right here. How does this pose a threat to Pakistan? India needs sensitive satellites to monitor activities that threaten its integrity and security, especially from your nation.

 

If monitoring one’s borders, via space satellites, somehow translates into being a threat to your neighbour, then I guess most developed countries (& many developing countries as well) are guilty of this disposition. With the US being the biggest threat to Mexico.

Mauryan, Pakistanis aren’t as much threatened by the satellite, as they are by the increasingly close relations between India & Israel.

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive
 

Liar writes: “the last thing India would be is a ‘progressive nation’. Not after the rising HIV AIDS, abject poverty where 25% of its population comprising of Dalit low caste Hindus living in abject poverty.”

Didn’t your ISI bosses say anything else new? You have been grinding the same flour over and over again. If you go back to the old blogs and your responses, you will see that you have not said anything new. India has made some progress. So wake up. And I do not intend proving anything to you.

“rising hindu fundamentalism and communal violence, where massacres of muslims take place, have you forgotten the killing of christians in Orrissa last year?
You guys have some serious progress to make.”

I do not deny any of it and we have a legal system to take care of these things. We don’t whack people and cut their arms off in public.

“And dont be too happy, India made the bomb so did Pakistan. Its only a matter of time before we match you guys in capability and exceed.”

We made the bomb. We also built institutions that sustain a nation. We built universities, research institutions, medical facilities, communications, educational infrastructure etc that are bearing fruit today. These are considered as signs of progress. I am not surprised about your lack of awareness of these things since your country never attempted to build anything.

Your country built the bomb too. But it has nothing else on the agenda. So it is filling up the emptiness with Islamic fundamentalism that is churning out jihadi terrorists. Have you seen any article that is concerned about Indian nukes (other than the ones in Pakistan)? But there is enough concern about Paki nukes in the international circles. Paki nukes, Taliban, terrorism, Al Qaeda, Radical Islam, ISI, drug trafficking are the only items one hears of about Pakistan. May be you guys should think about it. You cannot survive by simply lying all the time.

It is always good to protect one’s home by setting up surveillance to track criminals from breaking in. India has just done that. And of course, as you have said, criminals also become up to date in countering such advancements. It is a never ending chase isn’t it? thief.

 

Mauryan,
I cant help myself stop laughing on
“You have the Taliban taking over your country. They might ban cars and force everyone to ride the donkey.”

Below is the video, when a donkey tries to “Ride” Taliban.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGV6g80v2 ME

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive
 

Mauryan, Pakistanis are fed with this hateful, nonsensical & false propaganda against India on a daily basis. All they wanna believe is that India is an utterly impoverished country with half the population infected with HIV & where atrocities are committed against minorities on a daily basis.

The bottom-line is that the world knows what India is & what Pakistan is. Nobody gives a rat’s a** about what delusional, ignorant & moronic Pakistanis think.

And yeah, all Pakistani arguments start & end with one and only one statement “WE HAVE THE BOMB”. Lmao!

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive
 

Umarr wrote:
“India made the bomb so did Pakistan. Its only a matter of time before we match you guys in capability and exceed.”

There is a difference,

You had to eat “Grass” several years for this bomb. Had not FoP donated the Loans of 5 Bi USD, will you EAT your bomb ?

(Yes its a Loan and a donation, because there is no chance of Pakistan Paying back)

You also need figure out,how many “Photo Chor” like A Q Khan you need for matching up capability and exceed.

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive
 

Mortal
If I have an access to high speed DSL internet, If I am proficient enough in English, If I am on Reuters blog. Than I guess I have all the access to international media, blogs, news websites etc. I know very well about India and Pakistan too. A bunch of call centres and India is a super power. My A$$.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Has the bomb helped Pakistan ?

Nice editorial in thenews.

http://www.thenews.com.pk/editorial_deta il.asp?id=115127

Writer states this regarding Kargil war:

In all the above cases the Indians knew that Pakistan had the Bomb. Also, India’s generals must have known that there is no defence against nuclear weapons and if Pakistan had launched its arsenal the losses would have been unacceptable. How could they then dare to blatantly threaten Pakistan in 2002? And the answer to that is that they were obviously not overly afraid of the Pakistani Bomb. Perhaps, by 2002, if not 1999, the Indians reasoned that the maximum Pakistan can do is to take out a few Indian cities? Let it. But India, with a second-strike capability, could retaliate decisively. Pakistan comprises seven or eight urban-industrial centres and India must have felt that it could wipe out all of them. Hence, can any Pakistani government or general really take the risk of launching nuclear weapons against India, knowing that in consequence most of Pakistan could be destroyed? Thus, Pakistan’s Bomb has amounted to what one could call a bluff.

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive
 

reading these comments are like watching two slum dogs fight over a chewed up bone.

Posted by hassan | Report as abusive
 

Umair rants about the Dalits and HIV problems. Umair please defend the ISI and the Pak Military incompetance at not defeating the Taliban and their surrender in SWAT. Why is your unprofessional ISI and Army incapable of beating a small group of boy lovers?

Please explain your tacit support of the boy lover Taliban’s who have rolled back women and human rights almost 800 years in SWAT and will do so for the rest of Pakistan? Please also explain how you people marry girls as young as 8 yrs old. Don’t worry about India’s HIV or the Dalits, or Indian muslims none of these groups are causing terrorism on Pakistani soil.

Umair, just send a couple of more Jihadi’s across the LOC or just one do just one more Mumbai on India. The next time India and its citizens, BJP or not will not show restraint, they will polarize and call for decapitation of Islamabad and Rawalpindi.

Please cleanup your backyard.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan goes under auction .. no not eBay!

“We are offering one million acres of land across Pakistan for investors who want to buy or lease the land for a long period of time,” said Waqar Ahmed Khan, the Federal Minister of Investment in Pakistan.

http://in.reuters.com/article/southAsiaN ews/idINIndia-39144420090420

http://www.gulfnews.com/business/Investm ent/10306328.html

Seems like the state ministers want to make quick bucks and run for non-state destinations. Nobody wants to wait till Talibans arrive in Islamabad.

Posted by David | Report as abusive
 

Can Pakistan develop missiles which can shoot satellites out? Like the Chinese did?
Surely it doesnt matter if the satellite is Israeli. If its spying on Pakistan it becomes a target.
I guess its time to acquire those anti-satellite-missiles from china.
By doing so we will be able to hit those those satellites.
However I am not sure if Pakistan has ratified the Outer space treaty banning use of weapons of mass destruction in orbit and outer space.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Punjabiyaar writes: “Below is the video, when a donkey tries to “Ride” Taliban”

God! Punjabiyaar! I laughed so hard that tears came out of my eyes. Pakistan is a very interesting place indeed. Can someone send this to Ashfaq Kayani or Musharraf?

 

Umair, in case you did not notice, you are the only Pakistani here, on a blog about pakistani. There are almost a dozen Indians here. I think you have a strong need to believe in delusions you create in your own head, or fulfill those you were taught in a madrasa.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive
 

Coyote writes: “By doing so we will be able to hit those those satellites.
However I am not sure if Pakistan has ratified the Outer space treaty banning use of weapons of mass destruction in orbit and outer space.”

Have you asked Zardari to look deep into his begging bowl? These things cost a lot of money. May be you can send Jihadi holy warriors to the top of K2 and try sling shots from there. Did you see the donkey ride posted by Punjabiyaar? The donkey is the Taliban and the guy being chased is Pakistan. First protect your rear end. Then worry about sling shots into the sky.

 

Taliban victim writes: “A bunch of call centres and India is a super power. My A$$.”

Keep your A$$ ready. Taliban will come to take it soon and burst their Islamic bomb under it.

India can never be a super power and we don’t want to be one. We just want to progress and live well.

 

Mortal writes: “Pakistanis are fed with this hateful, nonsensical & false propaganda against India on a daily basis. All they wanna believe is that India is an utterly impoverished country with half the population infected with HIV & where atrocities are committed against minorities on a daily basis.”

This is their way of consoling themselves. Sour grapes!

“The bottom-line is that the world knows what India is & what Pakistan is. Nobody gives a rat’s a** about what delusional, ignorant & moronic Pakistanis think.”

The world only looks at Pakistan as a devious, double faced crook, armed with nukes and holding Afghanistan hostage and threatening its neighbors.

“And yeah, all Pakistani arguments start & end with one and only one statement “WE HAVE THE BOMB”. Lmao!”

I know and it smells very bad. They must be eating left over razma that the Americans throw in the garbage bins.

 

Liar writes: “Can Pakistan develop missiles which can shoot satellites out? Like the Chinese did?”

Good question. North Koreans are still working on it. So wait. You can name it Mullah Nasruddin for indigenous contribution. And Taliban’s pre-condition should not be forgotten – it should be launchable from a donkey’s rear end.

 

I am thrilled that Govt is doing somethings along these lines and is not sleeping. India needs to pour more money into internal security.

It is Pakistani’s great contribution which brought India-Israel closer. Since Pakistan, despite its besy efforts ( :-) ) has been unable to control terrorists of all shades, India is doing what it should be doing.

Look at the following facts:

“”India accorded formal recognition to Israel in 1950 but continued to resist establishment of formal diplomatic relations till 1992.”

“”Following the establishment of formal diplomatic relations in 1992, India and Israel have signed a number of agreements on economic, scientific, agricultural and cultural matters.”—-and now this one.

The Palestine Liberation Organization, the political and paramilitary organization, was regarded as the “sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people by the Arab League since October 1974.

“India was the first non-Arab country to contemporaneously recognize the PLO’s authority as “the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people.” A PLO office was set up in the Indian capital in 1975, with full diplomatic relations established in March 1980.”

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

“Now where are those who claim India does not pose a threat to Pakistan?”
-Umair

-You must be kidding if you call this defensive move a threat to Pakistan. You need to fix your short-fuse about India and use that for Taliban and other such elements.

I was listening to Ahmed Rahid today over MSNBC. He says Pakistani Army is still in denial and thinks that India is Pakistan’s #1 enemy not the terrorists. Why these non-military guys think this way–must be a reason, right?

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

Rajeev
The staeliite itself doesnt possess any threat to Pakistan, its the defense collaboration between India and Israel that does threaten Pakistan. Just like Pak-China or Pak-North Korea defense collaboration would pose a threat to India.
But I can tell you in future there is a greater chance of improvement of relations between India and Pakistan.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

some of these comments are so sad. i would think a progressive country like india and its citizens would get past the pettiness of having to go tit for tat on forums like these.Mauryan, do you have a job, it seems that you time to reply to every comment posted and all you really do is make derogitory remarks. as for the pakistanis, you will not be able to solve any problems unless the taliban problem is solved, there is not point of even thinking about india being a problem. whether india likes it or not, the taliban problem would be even a bigger problem for them.

Posted by sidney | Report as abusive
 

Umair – “Mortal If I have an access to high speed DSL internet, If I am proficient enough in English, If I am on Reuters blog. Than I guess I have all the access to international media, blogs, news websites etc. I know very well about India and Pakistan too. A bunch of call centres and India is a super power. My A$$”

Just having access to information, does not make one knowledgeable. If that were the case, everyone in the world, with access to the internet, would be a knowledgeable person.

The problem with Pakistanis like you, Umair, is that although you might be educated, you are so blinded by the shades of hatred & vindictiveness against India, compelled upon you by the radicals & conspiracy theorists in your country, that you choose to access just the negative news/information about India & wanna have nothing to do with the positive. Even if you come across any positive news/information about India, you chose to either ignore it or conveniently, not acknowledge any of it. The list of positive developments in India & it’s achievements is too long, for me to present here & also I’m not an insecure citizen of a ‘Failed State’, who has to prove the merits of his country to everyone.

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan will have to counter the deepening India-Israeli engagement, some readers have pointed out. If India is getting early warning systems that alert you each time an aircraft takes off from a Pakistani airfield, then Islamabad must have a similar system. Perhaps from Europe, and also strengthen its alliance with China and even Iran, a reader suggests.

In the past India and Pakistan have matched every arms acquisition toe for toe sometimes at great cost and the debate often used to be whether the only winners in this race were the arms makers.

But haven’t things changed since then ? Can Pakistan afford to buy such expensive systems especially when it is in financial difficulties? And is India stepping up the pressure on it by continuing with its arms imports even as the economy slows down tempting Pakistan down the same route ?

Posted by Sanjeev Miglani | Report as abusive
 

Mauryan, i think you comment more on these pakistan-indian comments more than anyone else i have ever seen. it seems that you have the time in your life to sit there and reply to every single comment made by anyone in any of these forums. why reuters continues to even post up some of your childish comments still baffles me. you are giving every intellectual and educated indian a bad name. its one thing that if people made intellectual and constructive comments, its another to make this your own personal chat room. moving on, some of these comments in here would make me think that we are still back in the 1960s. its funny to read the comments being made by some indians towards pakistan., sure pakistan is becoming more of an extremist state day by day, the talibinization of pakistan is great cause for concern. but as the article points out, India to is beginning to lean on the extremist BJP party. this party has been hostile to all its non-hindu citizens; the christians,the sikhs, and to the approval of most the muslims. yet, there is no noise made there. i think we are all aware of the 2000 muslims burned alive by the insane BJP and the recent attacks on christiand by these wackos, yet, they are not presented as extremist. the hypocrisy of this is down right laughable.

Posted by Hassan | Report as abusive
 

Sanjeev,
Indias defense preparations are china centric as was openly declared by George Fernandez, the then defense minister in previous government. Hope you will understand that once for all. Indias long range missiles can reach Beijing, Teheran and even eastern Europe. US denied the Cryogenic engine technology transfer to India that was requested for its space program, citing its concerns of the dual use for long range (nuclear war head capable) missiles. India went ahead and made its own indigenous boosters in a short time and soon perfected the satellite technology. The defense philosophy revolves around a credible deterrence to be able to inflict unacceptable losses to enemy.

 

Sanjeev writes: “Pakistan will have to counter the deepening India-Israeli engagement, some readers have pointed out.”

Do you really agree to this or are you trying to be nice?
Even North Korea wants to balance out it power with others. Is it justified?

“If India is getting early warning systems that alert you each time an aircraft takes off from a Pakistani airfield, then Islamabad must have a similar system.”

Where does it say that Sanjeev? Where does it say that Pakistan should equal India? In what sense? Is there any comparison in terms of size, population, infrastructure, needs etc?

“Perhaps from Europe, and also strengthen its alliance with China and even Iran, a reader suggests.”

The Western powers have completely ruined Pakistan by giving it too much weaponry due to cold war geopolitics and have encouraged dictatorship and religious extremism to achieve their goals. Why this kind attitude towards a country that is becoming a threat to the whole region?

“In the past India and Pakistan have matched every arms acquisition toe for toe sometimes at great cost and the debate often used to be whether the only winners in this race were the arms makers.”

So what is you suggestion? Should we set up a fund raiser to provide Pakistan with the latest weaponry, radars, fighter planes and other defense equipment so that they can match India nail for nail? How about Bangladesh and Burma? Do they feel not threatened? It is not arms makers that benefit. It is people like you who try to play neutral at the wrong time that emerge as winners. In today’s world, Pakistan is in a deep quagmire of Islamic terrorism and it is threatening the whole world. This is the time to go in there and take out their unnecessary arms so that they get to work on their development projects. India is not upgrading its arms to flex its muscles. It is doing so to protect itself from criminal nations surrounding it. Remember Mumbai? Or do you think it was unnecessary blame on poor Pakistanis?

“But haven’t things changed since then ? Can Pakistan afford to buy such expensive systems especially when it is in financial difficulties?”

Wow! India is not upgrading its defense to squeeze Pakistan. That country can do whatever it wants. If they try to ape India on everything, then they will fall. There are other things that Pakistan can try to compete with India – business, education, sports, culture etc.

“And is India stepping up the pressure on it by continuing with its arms imports even as the economy slows down tempting Pakistan down the same route ?”

Sending a satellite into space using its own technology mostly is arms imports? You are entitled to your opinions. But what you say here makes absolutely no sense. Please go and read Ahmed Rashid’s book, “Descent into chaos” and understand the gravity of the situation.

 

Sidney and Hasan

the indian diaspora is thoroughly concerned about future mumbais that are so very easy to carry out.Women jihadi folk are now getting ready to cross the border as we are speaking.All under the watchful eye of Pak army.

Indians would like for Pakistan to prosper and to become peasceful.Its beneficial for all in the subcontinent/world.

Mauryans and Rajeevs express more than others as they are concerned and want to offer remedial measures. Do you not realize how shallow are perceptions of ground reality of some pak bloggers.The denial syndrome is scary really.At the sametime they go around the world with a begging bowl every 2 yrs.

 

Sydney writes: “some of these comments are so sad.”

You are free to ignore my writings.

“i would think a progressive country like india and its citizens would get past the pettiness of having to go tit for tat on forums like these.”

I do not know which country you are from. But I guess you belong to one of the NATO countries – rich and powerful, comfortable and healthy. I can tell you this much. When it comes to them, all people behave the same way. When 9/11 happened, I was in New Jersey. I saw how the sentiments changed in Americans about Muslims. I used to sport a beard and my colleague told me to get rid off it out of concern. There were lot of sad stories of mistaken identity, where people got left out of flights because passengers felt uncomfortable. I had some American colleagues who wanted to nuke the place, but did not know where Afghanistan was on the world map. I had to show it to them. Americans held Japanese citizens in camps during world war II, suspecting their loyalty. I can go on and on. But the gist of my point is that when affected, emotions charge up and it is not easy for someone to understand the sentiments. Pakistan has been causing damage to my country and has been getting away with it every time. We have held ourselves with maximum restraint. US went to war with Taliban in 2001 for being attacked in NY. India was told to hold its horses when terrorists attacked our Parliament in 2002 and Mumbai.

“Mauryan, do you have a job, it seems that you time to reply to every comment posted and all you really do is make derogitory remarks.”

Sorry, but that is none of your damn business.

“as for the pakistanis, you will not be able to solve any problems unless the taliban problem is solved, there is not point of even thinking about india being a problem.”

This is what we all have been trying to tell. It went into deaf ears and so we turned sarcastic.

whether india likes it or not, the taliban problem would be even a bigger problem for them.”

Thanks. All problems in our neighborhood was fueled by Western powers. They have turned Pakistan into a criminal state. So long as India burned, none of your leaders cared. So it is good that these cockroaches have begun to eat your guts as well. Let the Western powers clean up the mess that they have created. As far as India is concerned, we don’t want any of it.

 

Hassan writes: “i think you comment more on these pakistan-indian comments more than anyone else i have ever seen. it seems that you have the time in your life to sit there and reply to every single comment made by anyone in any of these forums.”

So what exactly is your problem sir? You said you are a proud American in another blog. Do you remember freedom of speech? Or is it only for a selective group of people?

“why reuters continues to even post up some of your childish comments still baffles me.”

Interestingly I do not see a similar reaction from you towards some Pakistani posters on this blogspot who are even worse. Is there a reason for this bias, Mr. Hassan? Can I deduce it from your name?

“you are giving every intellectual and educated indian a bad name. its one thing that if people made intellectual and constructive comments, its another to make this your own personal chat room.”

Some people called me a moron. Where were you at that time?

“moving on, some of these comments in here would make me think that we are still back in the 1960s. its funny to read the comments being made by some indians towards pakistan.”

Funny comments are always enjoyable. So enjoy them. What is there to complain about?

“sure pakistan is becoming more of an extremist state day by day, the talibinization of pakistan is great cause for concern.”

It is more of a concern for us in India. We are helpless in this world. We are one of the biggest victims of state sponsored terrorism in the world. And we have struggled to keep up with economic progress while dodging the incessant attacks from a neighbor who has nothing else on its agenda.

“but as the article points out, India to is beginning to lean on the extremist BJP party. this party has been hostile to all its non-hindu citizens;”

Don’t worry. The BJP arose due to Muslim orthodoxy in India that wrested away Pakistan by means of violence. That is history anyway so we won’t go there. But BJP will never come close to the extremist parties in the world – Aryan nation, Nazi party of Hitler, Mao’s red army, Klu Klux Klan, Black Panther, Al Qaeda, Taliban, Hezbollah and so on. Muslim societies have so many of them and I see you guys worried only about the BJP. Do not worry, India is a democracy and such parties change their manifesto based on what is popular.

“the christians,the sikhs, and to the approval of most the muslims. yet, there is no noise made there. i think we are all aware of the 2000 muslims burned alive by the insane BJP and the recent attacks on christiand by these wackos, yet, they are not presented as extremist. the hypocrisy of this is down right laughable.”

We don’t have to condemn the BJP everytime in every response. One has to respond based on what is presented as an argument. We also have extremist parties that are not based on religious ideology. We have Naxalites, Rana Veer Sena, Shiv Sena, RSS, Maoists, Khalistanis and so on who also kill ruthlessly. BJP is learning the game of politics slowly. So I expect it to mellow down with time. India was ruled by the Congress party for almost four decades continuously. None of the others had a chance to be in power. And by accident it happened and it takes time for political parties to mature. AB Vajpayee is a great statesman. And under his Prime Ministership, India did very well economically. He also reached out to Musharraf on peace process, knowing well that the Pakistanis are not trust worthy. Indian parliament was attacked in 2002, and the BJP was close to going to war with Pakistan. And the US put a hold on it to achieve its objectives. BJP will never turn into a Taliban. Let us not find something to make a point. There is none.

 

Thank you very much for sharing this good news, I am happy to read this complete article its really very helpful for India as this satellite keep a close eye on its borders stretching from Pakistan in the west to China in the north and east. It’s a good job

 

India-Israeli tie may fire up Paki/musla/jihadis little more, but it was natural. Apart from SA, India is the conuntry, where the can get civilised and open set up. India was popular destination of vacation for IDF trainees. The people to people contact strengthened in USA. If jews controls 1/3rd of Silicon Valley companies, Indians control 1/5th of these. Like indians, jews are also open minded and civilised people. After 1991, it was impossible to stop Indo-Israeli co-operation in various fields. Israel helped india in the field of agriculture, scientific research.

Posted by Nikus | Report as abusive
 

It is really a commendable step and should have been done much earlier to avoid unnecessary conflicts and better prepare in the future for any eventualities.
India has tried every diplomatic and defensive means to stop infiltration from pakistani side and has not seen a single postive improvement. Mostly because it has been happening with the ISI involvement, which the pakistan government is initself not in control of. Hence it is only apt for it to have eyes in the sky to watch out and take the situation under her control, especially now since there is a higher chance of Pakistan descending into choas. Another major usage would also be to moniter the Chinese army movement towards her border.

Posted by Praveen | Report as abusive
 

Sanjeev,

Thanks for this piece, it will restore our confidence in our security infrastructure. Now the question, whether this satellite can detect movement of terrorists around our borders, the terror camps in Pakistan ? Whether this satellite can also detect naxalite terror in India?

Posted by Manish | Report as abusive
 

Sanjjev writes :
“Pakistan will have to counter the deepening India-Israeli engagement, some readers have pointed out. If India is getting early warning systems that alert you each time an aircraft takes off from a Pakistani airfield, then Islamabad must have a similar system. Perhaps from Europe, and also strengthen its alliance with China and even Iran, a reader suggests………………”

Sanjeev,

I can not agree with your above comment , you might perhaps appreciate that all our defense preparedness is not definitely Pakistan centric, Pakistan though our greatest enemy , we are surrounded by very hostile neighbour : Nepal, Bangladesh,China and Myanmar . our relations with these neighbour are little better at the moment, but their unpredicted attitude towards India is very difficult to guess. We have time and again expressed apprehensions about presence of terror camps in these countries for waging war against India. Our defense preparedness is very necessary .

Pakistan is our greatest enemy , after having lost successive wars against India, they have launched terror camps to train terrorists to launch low intensity war against India from their soil .

Posted by Manish | Report as abusive
 

who india decides to engage with and trade with and have close ties is their business.no where does it say that dealing with israel is wrong or illegal.the israeli-palestine issue is not a muslim-jewish issue. although many muslims may see it that way, the muslims involved in this conflict like ALL of the arab countries are just as responsible for the palestinains suffering as the israelis are. with that being said, pakistan cannot afford to counter every move india makes. its talibinization and its failing economy is the bigger issue. during the early years of mushraff’s rule, the economy was doing fine and the extremisim was not so wide spread, pakistan and india had the closest ties in their long and troubled history. when times are good, every body is happy, it benefited both india and pakistan to have close economic ties and although pakistan’s economy is not as big as india’s it was amongst the fastest growing in the world as well only a few spots of being within india. as the extremisim spread the economy fell with it. pakistan can try and blame india for many of its problems, but the need to look in the mirror first. they have allowed thousands of shias, their own fellow pakistanis to slaughtered at the hands of these arab jihadis. they allowed these arab speaking neanderthals to join in with the already savage ways of the pashtos and look where it has gotten them. on the verge of the next somolia. hopefully they don’t start the whole piracy non-sense.

Posted by hassan | Report as abusive
 

Dear All,

My Humble request stop fighting like kids in such repute website of Reuters which have reader through out world. Please stop condemning to each other in fact we indian should behave some how. Do not forget we are still Big Brother and its in our tradition to keep silent and do our work.

Thats what our scientist are doing Let them congrats!. See this achievement is very big on world map as India join the elite group of spy satellite. I think what is going on in Pakistan is very frustrated for themselves and every one who have soft heart for it and it should be . After all no one would like to watch destroy its own garden. Unfortunately in current case things are very worse . So let them face the music of their own flute of hatred and terrorism we as a BIG Brother should wait for time to take care of the residual left and control the things in our hand for proper development of our own brother staying in Pakistan (except hardcore Taliban and who believe India is their enemy). We give them oxygen at their birth now we will put garland also on their funeral. So till Than stop putting harsh words and wait & watch.

Posted by Amit Daga | Report as abusive
 

India will be able to provide concrete proof of cross border terrorist movements. One of US requirements for financial aid for Pakistan is to make sure that the money will not be spent on sponsoring terrorism against India. If “non state actors” get sent into Indian territory, there will be proof of the activities. This is very good timing.

India will also be able to track the oceans better for smugglers, terrorists etc who use the sea to infiltrate India. The tracking system will be able to alert the Navy about any unusual activity. Going hi tech is the only way to tackle the vicious monster that is growing by the day. Now looks like an entire nation might be turning into one.

 

mauryan, thank you for providing all of us with your “expertise”. i assume google searching the information, makes you a credible source the obvious capability of this staellite. you went from being a foreign policy expert, to a political expert,and on to a intelligence expert. on another note, besides the politics of this non-sense. kudos to the india space agency in being able to move their program at such a fast rate and not to mention, actually be effective in this. From the many india friends and family i have, i can honestly say that india’s greatest export and import is its people. in the U.S i see many indians and pakistanis both being the majority of the workes for companies like microsoft, oracle, google, and have had the pleasure of having them work for me. it would be a wonderous thing to really see both countries combine its intellectual potential. not only would it be beneficial for them but for the world.

Posted by hassan | Report as abusive
 

AMY GOODMAN: It’s very good to have you with us. Let’s start out with these very serious allegations that you make. First, start off by talking about where US money goes when it’s supposedly going to Pakistan or its secret service.
AHMED RASHID: Well, the US has given something like $11 billion since 9/11 to Pakistan. About 80 percent of that has gone directly to the military. And with that money, Pakistan has bought over $7 billion to $8 billion worth of arms. Most of those arms have been bought for the Indian border. They’re heavy item numbers like jet fighters and artillery and stuff like that, not items that you need to fight a counterinsurgency that we are facing right now on our western borders. And so, a lot of this money has been wasted. There’s been growing resentment in Pakistan about this.
President Bush has been favoring Musharraf and really giving him a free ticket to take US money and do what he wants to do with it. At the same time, money has been channeled to Taliban and neo-Taliban groups in Pakistan who have been—who regrouped inside Afghanistan after their routing from Afghanistan in 2001 and have since 2003 been launching their offensive against US forces in Afghanistan.

http://www.democracynow.org/2008/6/10/de scent_into_chaos_ahmed_rashid_on

………………..all concerned US/pak/Indian citizens/others should read this interview

 

The electronic surveillance advance is a positive step towards keeping an eye on Pakistani cross border terrorism, Chinese movements, pirates and such things.

The surveillance advance has to be matched with countermeasures such as anti-missile missiles or a National Missile Defense Shield, to stop incoming Nukes from Pakistan or China.

To complete that, India should massively upgrade its Cruisemissle and long-range ballistic missile missile capability as well as the detonation yield of the various ordinances it will carry for those missiles.

Above all, since Pakistan is on the verge of Talibanization, India should keep a very sharp and highly trained battalion of numerous attack commando teams, which can invade Pakistan quickly to extract and confiscate or destroy the nukes, if Pakistan falls to the Taliban.

A large occupying force in Pakistan maybe necessary to keep a buffer against JIhadi aggression in India, the same way Israel had to keep Lebananon at bay.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive
 

Hassan writes: “it would be a wonderous thing to really see both countries combine its intellectual potential. not only would it be beneficial for them but for the world.”

In an ideal world, we all could be sitting together and enjoying a beautiful sunset. It is not my actions that have led to the partition of the sub-continent, or the cold war or the current situation. I am in this world that is in conflict with itself. I need to see where I stand and understand what I should do. Please tell your Pakistani brothers that they could have had it all and become a highly developed nation like Japan. Instead their leaders wasted it all away. And now only their enmity with India stands. I will react if someone is pointing a gun at me or looks at me with vengeance. So does a nation. Please direct your advice to your Pakistani brothers that you left behind. We are progressing against the odds. Please allow us to do so. Then you will not see any of here justifying our stance.

 

Hassan, your bias towards your fellow Pakistanis is quite transparent & understandable. As mine, being Indian American, also probably is, towards my fellow Indians. You won’t prove anything with personal attacks on Mauryan or anyone else. The fact of the matter is, that since the Mumbai attacks, something has changed in the collective psyche of all Indians & we unanimously say that WE’VE HAD ENOUGH! We will no longer tolerate the massacring of our civilians by ‘Non-State Actors’ from Pakistan. You seem like an educated & tolerant Pakistani & it’s up to people like you, to convince your fellow Pakistanis to change this anti-India ideology, which has been ingrained in their minds for decades. We, Indians, want peace but we will no longer take Pakistan’s proxy war in India, sitting down.

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive
 

mortal, as mentioned before several times. I am not pakitani. one of my parents is india and the other pakistani so there is no “bias” on my end as you claim.even though both my parents are muslims, my indian parent does not favor pakistan at all. even though some in your country may not classify the muslims of india as “real indians” there is alot of loyalty for india.I think you are diliberartely ignorning my comments against pakistan.sure the mumbai attacks were bad, but let’s not even try and compare it to how we felt when 9/11 happened to us here in america. so you don’t think pakistanis have been victicms of attacks and bombings?? they have been attacked and killed even more so then india has.my comments about the BJP and their violent attacks on their countrymen have been ignored over and over again. did u forget the attacks were nearly 2000 muslims were killed but parties linked to the BJP, with the assitance of the police?? and the countless attacks on churches and sikh temples?their are elements in india as well that are extreme in nature and have blood on their hands.look at our response to the 9/11 attacks? where has that gotten us? invasion of 2 muslim countries with hundered and thousands are dead. 1 country which had nothing to do with 9/11.if you honestly think this is a one sided issue, then you are greatly mistaken, although the pakitani side has many more of the blame to share

Posted by hassan | Report as abusive
 

I’m so glad that India is on the right track when it comes to Israel. Both countries have faced and are still facing atrocities. India should continue to have ties with Israel on all grounds and stand up for Israel no matter what. I firmly believe that if we stand united with Israel, any weapon formed against our India will not prosper.

Posted by Gigi | Report as abusive
 

Mortal wrote:
“I’m not an insecure citizen of a ‘Failed State’, who has to prove the merits of his country to everyone.”

Ok, so this is a personal attack on me, my sense of security originates from the termendous confidence I have in my country which despite showing persistently failing symptoms have always managed to come back from the brink. We as Pakistanis and our country Pakistan as a whole has a great potential. All we had been lacking in the past was a strong committment. But every crisis brings itself an opportunity for introspection and self correction. I would love to correct our mistakes and look forward to a bright future. Now you dont get too upset and relax.

As far as morals are concerned, you Indians have a lot more to prove to the world. Do you know even the British Foreign Secretary told your leaders under their noses in New Delhi to sort out the mess in Kashmir otherwise expect more Mumbai style attacks?

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Mortal
We Pakistanis also have had enough of it. You may be an American Indian, but you seem to be too much overcome with the jingoistic Indian media frenzy and its smear campaign against Pakistan. Your lecture to Hassan does not make any sense and is useless since you yourself are blindly following other uninformed people. Dont try to provoke anyone by your rhetoric, no one is going to get scared.
We also want peace, but with honour and dignity. Not the way you are trying to sound.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Umair – “Mortal We Pakistanis also have had enough of it. You may be an American Indian, but you seem to be too much overcome with the jingoistic Indian media frenzy and its smear campaign against Pakistan. Your lecture to Hassan does not make any sense and is useless since you yourself are blindly following other uninformed people. Dont try to provoke anyone by your rhetoric, no one is going to get scared. We also want peace, but with honour and dignity. Not the way you are trying to sound”

Umair, may I ask, what have you Pakistanis had enough of? May I ask, How many of your civilians have been killed by Indian terrorists? (And please don’t give me base-less references. If you have proof, provide it)

I don’t follow the Indian media as I feel that it tends to exaggerate & sensationalize, news. I follow the American & other global media. In case you haven’t noticed it, it’s not just India or Indians, who are pointing fingers at Pakistan. It’s pretty much the whole world, who now considers Pakistan as a Terror sponsoring Rogue nation. There’s an article almost everyday in the New York Times or the Washington Post or the Guardian or other reputed global media, about the two-faced nature of the Pakistani army & the ISI and about how Pakistan is the biggest threat to the world. Maybe, you ought to check those sometime, instead of burying your head in Indo-centric Pakistani newspapers or articles.

You wanna live with peace & dignity, that’s fine with us. We don’t care weather you are ruled by a democracy, dictatorship or Taliban. That’s none of our business & we wouldn’t care less about it. Just don’t send any of your ‘Non-State Actors’ to our country, to kill our civilians cuz’ as I said before WE’VE HAD ENOUGH!

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive
 

Mortal
http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2009/04/21  /obama-torture-memos042109.html
Obama wont rule out charges over CIA interrogations

Time to go after the most dangerous terrorists, warmongers and war crimminals like Cheney, Bush, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Rice, Pearle, Tenant …. they should all be prosecuted. Before Pakistan Army and ISI are labelled with anything, lets see who are the real criminals.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Umair, you are right! Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld etc. should be tried & put behind bars. More than anything else, for duping the American people into invading the wrong country. Most Americans are waking up to the realization, as is the Obama Administration, that the terror-sponsoring country with weapons of mass-destruction, that should have been attacked in the first place, shouldn’t have been Iraq but rather, Pakistan.

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive
 

A business risk analyst once told me that there is a simple test to determine if a country Ws worth investing in. Google the name of the country. what pops up on the page and in Google news gives you all the impression you need. By this test Pakistan is in serious trouble. With foreign investment fleeing Pakistan, I can’t see how they will maintain conventional parity with India.

The old argument that nuclear weapons are sufficient is ridiculous. Look at the arsenal the USSR had. That didn’t keep them from disintegrating. If any future Indian administration decides to follow Reagan style strategies and spark an arms race on the subcontinent, Pakistan could end up in serious trouble.

Posted by Keith | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan wants free money without any conditions or benchmarks:

“So we have said, we will provide and would like to provide 1.5 billion dollars over a five-year period to Pakistan,” he said.

“Clearly, we are going to establish benchmarks. We want to see certain standards and goals met,” Wood said.

But Pakistan showed no sign of complying with US demands.

Pakistan’s prime minister Yusuf Raza Gilani said in a statement: “The US should not attach conditionalities to the assistance.”

“Aid with strings attached would fail to generate the desired goodwill and results, ” he added.

However oftenWashington flexes its muscles against Pakistan, Pakistan knows that by the second week of May, a record numbers of Taliban attacks will convince the US that it has exhausted many of its options in the South Asian “war on terror”.

I don’t know what the Fxxk is wrong with Pakistan. They want double standards, want to kill innocent Hindus and want free american money with no standards and drag their feet chasing the Taliban. Go Fxxk yourself and be prepared to be decimated, smashed and occupied by the western powers.

Damn punjabi idiotic fools.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive
 

Mortal
After getting knee deep into recession and making desperate attempts to salvage capitalism, after the Iraq and Afghanistan fiasco, talk to Obama about Pakistan and it will send shivers down his spine.
No one should ever make the mistake of attacking Pakistan, we have the power to retaliate. We will not be cake walk like Iraq or Afghanistan.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Would the US really need to attack Pakistan? A scaling back of US aid and a veto at the IMF would probably cower Pakistan. And if Pakistan keeps testing Obama’s patience there will be consequences. Obama has decided that he now ‘owns’ the war in Afghanistan any loss will be blamed directly on Obama. Given the editorials about Pakistan appearing in the New York Times or Washington Post, a defeat in Afghanistan or even a lack of progress will be seen by the American (and increasingly Canadian, British, Australian, etc.) public as a loss caused by Pakistan. It will not be seen as an American defeat in so much as a Pakistani effort to counter American interests.

Pakistani should pray that the US succeeds in Afghanistan. If it doesn’t, that will be the end of Pakistan. Are Pakistani prepared to make an enemy of their largest donor and ally?

Posted by Keith | Report as abusive
 

Lol on “Talk to Obama about Pakistan and it will send shivers down his spine.”

“No one should ever make the mistake of attacking Pakistan, we have the power to retaliate. We will not be cake walk like Iraq or Afghanistan.”

Yeah Yeah Pakistan has nukes

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive
 

Umair – “Mortal After getting knee deep into recession and making desperate attempts to salvage capitalism, after the Iraq and Afghanistan fiasco, talk to Obama about Pakistan and it will send shivers down his spine.
No one should ever make the mistake of attacking Pakistan, we have the power to retaliate. We will not be cake walk like Iraq or Afghanistan”

Umair, if you think that a recession will prevent Obama from attacking Pakistan, in order to protect American interests, you are sadly mistaken. Recessions are cyclical, here in the US & they do not disturb America’s defense policies. In fact most neo-cons believe that War is the best way to get a country out of a recessionary period. And moreover, this recession isn’t all that it’s been made out to be. By most economic estimates, a recovery will begin by late 2009/early 2010.

There is a growing consensus, here in the US, that Pakistan is becoming much more dangerous than a Pre-9/11 Afghanistan & the one thing that Obama & the Democrats absolutely don’t want on their watch, is an attack on American soil. In order to prevent that, Obama would most certainly attack Pakistan, if he has to, in order to protect America.

Yes, you are right, Pakistan isn’t Iraq or Afghanistan and would offer a stiffer resistance than those 2. So, while it took 2 & 3 weeks to invade Afghanistan & Iraq, respectively, it might take 4 or 5 weeks to invade Pakistan.

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive
 

A recession also means that Pakistan will be worse off (with regards to economic growth) than the US. Who has the recession hurt more: Pakistan or the US? The US has not needed an IMF bailout.

The recession also means that the economic disparity between Pakistan and India will grow wider further ensuring that Pakistan will not have the means with which to keep up with India.

Posted by Keith | Report as abusive
 

A key capability of this satellite will be coherent change detection (CCD).

This means India will now have the ability to detect changes over time. For example, this means that one could compare foilage densities for example and find the locations of camouflaged sites. Or by overlaying two pics of a road or desert, you could find tire tracks leading to a vehicle, etc. The technology could also be use to find infiltration paths into a given area by comparing before and after shots to detect the changes.

This is a significant capability for imagery intelligence analysts. It would be interesting to know which agency in India will be responsible for doing such analysis.

I also wonder what the Pakistani response will be. Are they going to attempt to field similar technology. It\’s quite expensive and an extremely advanced and difficult capability to maintain.

 
 

Some good examples, for anybody wondering what these capabilities will mean:

http://defense-update.com/features/du-2- 05/sensor-5.htm

Posted by Keith | Report as abusive
 

Hassan pulls from the air: “the countless attacks on churches and sikh temples?”

Countless? That is a huge number. In the US in general people do not pull things from the air. They provide facts or remain ignorant. So I am going to ask you to provide a concrete reference for the number of churches and Sikh temples destroyed in India by the BJP. I am particularly interested in the numbers. I know some churches got attacked and Punjab burned in the 1980s during Khalistan movement. I also know that in 1984, after Indira Gandhi’s assassination, many innocent Sikhs got slaughtered by goons organized by politicians. But they were not BJP politicians.

So I expect you to show some credibility in your statement. The reason why I am asking this number specifically is because statements like the ones you make tend to project the wrong image in the minds of the wrong people who do not have direct view of the situation and they can emotionally react and build up hatred. I suppose you are educated. Let us see if you can substantiate your statement. Or withdraw it on this forum for everyone to see.

BTW, I am not fond of the BJP or their supporters. I support parties based on political situations and issues on hand, just like most Indian voters.

Let us see if you provide the numbers.

 

Keith writes: “Pakistani should pray that the US succeeds in Afghanistan. If it doesn’t, that will be the end of Pakistan. Are Pakistani prepared to make an enemy of their largest donor and ally?”

US went to Pakistan’s help to drive Taliban out of Afghanistan. Taliban moved into Pakistan. US is stuck in Afghanistan now because Taliban has been given enough time to grow and strengthen its base. And it has figured out that if it can take over Pakistan, it gets a huge army and the nukes. Then it can walk into Afghanistan and take it over. Now the two countries merge into one huge Islamic Caliphate. So the US will be looking for solutions. Their economic crisis demands that they finish the job quick and get out of the region. But it won’t be easy. They now realize that they have been duped by Pakistan all these years. Obama is an intelligent man and he cannot be fooled the way that idiot Bush was. He figured out what is going on very quickly. So he is going to after Pakistan soon. Without setting Pakistan right, there is no way Afghanistan will get out of the stretcher. So Taliban is in a major hurry to take over Pakistan before the Americans act.

So the US is going to come to India for the next logistical support. India has two options. It can decide to stay out of it altogether and let the Americans operate from Central Asia. Or a deal can be made where the US gets to use Indian bases and logistical support and in return for it, The US promises to clear the nukes out of Taliban’s hands and from Pakistan altogether. Pakistan under Taliban will react and will face the wrath of the US. A One time ally will go down like Iraq. Now two nations will have to be built.

It would be good at that time to make a Marshall plan for this volatile region – Split up Afghanistan and Pakistan region into small nations based on ethnic lines, with resources allocated. Manage the area for a long time. Radical Islam will find it very difficult to spread over the barriers set up this way. The core problem of the whole thing is radical Islam and it is beginning to hold the region and the world hostage. There are lot of good people in these regions. But they are at the mercy of these radicals. They will surely welcome an international effort to change this place for good. The time for that has come.

 

Liar writes: “No one should ever make the mistake of attacking Pakistan, we have the power to retaliate. We will not be cake walk like Iraq or Afghanistan.”

No one cares much about Pakistan’s military and its capabilities. There is no proof on record to show what they have accomplished in any war. It won’t be a cake walk like Afghanistan. For Pakistan it will be a red carpet walk. Your military will split into three first – one that surrenders to the Taliban and one that surrenders to the US. One which is confused.

Your nukes are in safe hands. No one knows which button to push. Instructions are partly in Chinese. And spare parts are still coming from China.

 

Keith writes: “The recession also means that the economic disparity between Pakistan and India will grow wider further ensuring that Pakistan will not have the means with which to keep up with India.”

Pakistan should aim high – It should compare itself with the US. Already some lunatics are laughing at the US recession while their begging bowls are empty.

Why this comparison with India and Pakistan? I think somehow everywhere people do this comparison without any awareness. India and Pakistan do not compare in any way. It is just that the two got independence on the same year from the same colonial power. After that the two have gone in their own ways. Somehow, from a distance, people have assumed that these two countries are “rivals!” Would someone compare China to Burma? It makes no sense. I feel really insulted when my country gets compared with Pakistan. Comparison with China would be better. This mentality is the reason for Pakistan to arm itself to the teeth and choking at the end of it. I do not understand why Pakistan should match itself with India on everything. Just like everyone has begun to realize that India is not Pakistan’s enemy, they should also realize that India is not to be compared with Pakistan. A fair comparison would be a country like Iran or Bangladesh – Islamic nations, similar in size, population etc.

 

I have just read this article from the UK newspaper The Guardian, 18/04/2009:

“Islamabad in frontline of Pakistan struggle with Islamic militants”

It sounds too sensationalist from these quotes:

-Fortifications are springing up across Islamabad as foreigners retreat from public view…

-Streets have been sealed, five-star hotels are fortified like army bases and a heavily protected area around parliament is known as the “red zone”.

-School owners said they were installing closed circuit television and hiring armed guards, but admitted the precautions were insufficient to stop a suicide bomber.

-the closure of a main road outside the anonymous-looking headquarters of the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) this week was a measure of the seriousness of the threat.

IS THIS FOR REAL?

Posted by bulletfish | Report as abusive
 

Global Watcher

—Pleazzzzz add Pakistani in front of punjabi…

Posted by anup | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan to be Split by the politicians & the army-
“A plan to set up the so-called ëTrust Fundí was drawn up for provision of “special aid” to the provinces of Balochistan and the NWFP with huge amount of international assistance separately meant to disconnect them from the rest of the country. The idea was reportedly widely accepted by senior officials in Pakistan and even some high-ups in Islamabad considered it a ìlucrativeî and ìharmless propositionî.”

http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.a sp?id=173737

Posted by anup | Report as abusive
 

Mauryan,

I think most people in the west recognize that Pakistan and India are not in the same league. Indeed, Indian food and culture has really come into vogue in the west in the last few years, similar to how ubiquitous elements of Chinese culture have become. When the Queen has curry for dinner, you know that India has really started to gain influence.

When it comes to comparisons with Pakistan some are apt though. Defence capability is largely proportional to how much one can afford (dictated by the size of the economy). As long as Pakistan perceives its need to maintain parity with India the comparison are apt. Of course, that does not mean the reverse is true. India should not feel threatened by such comparisons because the rest of the world knows that the two are not in the same league.

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Anup,
Pakistan to be Split by the politicians & the army…this will not happen.

I have to admit the number of opitons left for Pakistan are running out faster than Obama’s patience. Though it is not just the USA’s patience that is going to run out:

China Leans on Pakistan to Deal With Militants (Time, 10/04/2009)

The all-weather friendship is all weathered out.

Posted by bulletfish | Report as abusive
 

Daily Times, Pakistan –
* TTP says Osama welcome in Swat
* Muslim Khan wants Taliban model of sharia in Pakistan, ‘even in America’
* Says those who disagree with Taliban are non-Muslims

Guys, things are really heating up in Pakistan. I think, the Taliban takeover of Pakistan, might be just a couple of months away, if not weeks. I feel sorry for the liberal & moderate Pakistanis, who’ll be butchered for their beliefs. The stage is being set for a bloody battle.

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Mortal writes: “things are really heating up in Pakistan. I think, the Taliban takeover of Pakistan, might be just a couple of months away, if not weeks. I feel sorry for the liberal & moderate Pakistanis, who’ll be butchered for their beliefs. The stage is being set for a bloody battle.”

India should double up its security as the Pakistani establishment might make one last ditch attempt to create a large scale war by drawing India. Elections are going on and this is the time where maximum chaos can be created. Before they bend over for the Taliban, the Pakistani military, ISI and “democratic” government might work together to stage an attack inside India. This will cause confusion and if India decides to retaliate, all Mullahs will fall behind Pakistan. They must be wishing for India’s downfall as well, now that their own downfall is imminent. They will not like to see an India that is doing well when they are burning due to internal fire. There is a principle that Pakistanis believe in – “It is all right if I lose both my eyes, but the other guy should lose at least one of his eyes.” So India should be very careful and be prepared to do the right thing. This is the next thing that can be expected before Islamabad falls to Taliban. If India manages to deflect off the attack, then Pakistan will have no option but to face the monster it helped create. The RISAT has been launched just in time.

 

Why does this post come in ‘Pakistan:Now or Never’? Perhaps is it because Pakistan turned Israel from being India’s foe to a friend?

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Had Pakistan not stuck to ‘Muslim solidarity’ line they could have had Israel as a friend. Both countries have similar strategic environments: Larger neighbours, numerically superior enemies, strategically poor geographies, good relations with the US, etc. Instead, they drove the Israelis into the arms of the Indians. And that relationship is reaching unprecedented heights. The only other country with whom the Israelis have such a well developed military relationship is the United States.

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Mauryan, I agree, it can’t be emphasized enough that India needs to be extremely vigilant. Not only on the borders but internally as well. The next month or so could be crucial, as the Pakistani establishment, in one last desperate attempt, to unite their country, might attempt terror strikes in India. The Indian security forces can’t afford to be caught napping, like they were in Kargil. Hopefully, they are ready.

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As an American, I am appalled to see my country engaged in activities that bring shame to my country, our constitution and values. The Bush and Dick combination has destroyed our credibility in the world. Here are things that we should have done after defeating the Soviet Union in Afghanistan and getting rid off the Soviet empire.

1. Stayed in Afghanistan and made a Marshall plan for that country to come back to normal. If the efforts were made in 1989, in twenty years, Afghanistan would have reached a stage of maturity that is expected of nations. We would have had friendly governments in Central Asia and could have gone through legal business means to buy oil and natural gas from Central Asia.

2. We could have helped Pakistan become a stronger democracy by curtailing militancy, radicalization of their religion by using coercive methods. If we had started this effort in 1989, by now Pakistan would have reached a very enviable position and respect in the world. We could have helped build institutions and foundations instead of dumping weapons on them.

3. We could have helped both India and Pakistan economically and made them inter-dependent on trade and business activities to such an extent that they will think before they act emotionally. No one wants to lose money and business. Not only India, but also Pakistan could have become an IT powerhouse in a short time. I have no doubt that this young nation has excellent people with the potential to be professionals in anything.

4. We could have helped the region become a nuclear free zone. We could have helped in agriculture and other technologies that would have laid the foundation of stable economy in the whole region.

Instead our politicians and the CIA wanted quick returns and stayed ignorant of the rest of the world and the sentiments of the people. I apologize to all of you as an American – Indians, Pakistanis and Afghanis for what the republican governments have done in your region. And on top of that they have messed Iraq up completely. I feel really ashamed. I lost my sibling in Iraq for the political agenda of an ignorant man.

You all deserve to live a good life. I feel sad looking at these blogs where people are fighting each other constantly, becoming mere puppets at the hands of a few with power on their hands. I pray to the Lord that your precious lives be saved and channeled in the right direction. I am hoping that our new President at least does the right thing. It is not too late. I request you people to understand each other, rather than distance yourselves more. You all deserve good life.

God bless,

 

Keith, if one looked at the history of Pakistan, one can learn many valuable lessons, as to what not to do as a nation. Pakistan, with it’s strategic location, natural resources & large population, had a chance of becoming a global player of paramount importance. The biggest tragedy with Pakistan is that it never had the right leadership, which could steer that country in the right direction. Instead of focusing on education & economic development of it’s people, it’s leaders kept the country distracted, while fighting proxy wars in India & Afghanistan and filling their own personal coffers, in the process. As a result, today you see a radicalized & unstable country, with literacy rate in the single digits (by most estimates) & which is currently on the precipice of bankruptcy, failure & utter chaos.

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Pk, keith

Neither there is an ayatollah khominei nor a Shaw in the contemporary Pakistan … I agree Pak is no Iran. For obvious reasons copycat revolution will not repeat in Pakistan as that had happened in late 70s in Iran.

PK, you wondered why spy satellite article was posted under Pak specific blog. The same article was also posted in India specific blog- India: A Billion aspirations. It appears, some of the relevant articles are posted in both the groups simultaneously.

Zia-ul-Haq eloquently commented – we can not push 3 million Israelis into ocean- and made Israelis happy and annoyed arabs at that time. The WMDs makes everyone nervous now, as the Taliban is inching closer to the arsenal by the day.

 
 

US has no ‘real strategy’ for Pakistan

WASHINGTON: US Senator John Kerry, who returned from a visit to Islamabad earlier this week, has said that the Obama administration does not seem to have ‘a real strategy’ for Pakistan.
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn -content-library/dawn/news/world/us-has- no-real-strategy-for-pakistan–bi

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan accuses India, Afghans, of Baluch meddling
- Posted by Umair

Oh, that’s a real shocker!

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US has no ‘real strategy’ for Pakistan

WASHINGTON: US Senator John Kerry, who returned from a visit to Islamabad earlier this week, has said that the Obama administration does not seem to have ‘a real strategy’ for Pakistan.

- Posted by Umair

Kerry is correct. The strategy of cajoling the Pakistani army into fighting the Taliban has miserably failed. The only strategy now, is to wait & let the Taliban take over Pakistan. This will also buy the time, needed to re-deploy the troops, which are presently stationed in Iraq.

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Pakistan has no moral fabric nor core and is trying to destablize both Afghan and India and currently extorting money from the U.S. and has blatantly refused to help the U.S. kill the Taliban, despite wanting free money. Pakistan has lost the moral right to statehood existence.

Let its disintegration begin.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive
 

Let its disintegration begin.
- Posted by Global Watcher

First Talibanization…then Invasion…and then Disintegration…in that order!

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive
 

First Talibanization…then Invasion…and then Disintegration…in that order!

Where do you see ‘Pakistani nuclear retaliation’?
Guys Pakistan is a nuclear power. FYI

Thanks to Dr. Abdul Qadeer Khan and his dedicated team of scientists who put together nuclear weapons by literally gathering every nut and bolt from every corner of the world. It was worth it, a great nation like Pakistan deserved to be a nuclear power.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Umair,

Please demonstrate how nuclear weapons prevented the USSR from disintegrating.

I would not want to see Pakistan fall apart because of the problems that would create but you should not discount the possibility.

The other day I had a chance to chat with Dr. Stephen Cohen and he readily admitted that the world might potentially be better off with a Pakistan that’s in several pieces. The only thing keeping that from happening is the concern the world has in the process that leads to that conclusion. If the US thought that Pakistan falling apart wasn’t a problem the aid money would dry up pretty quick. How long do you think the Sindhis would stick around if the Pak government didn’t have the resources to govern there or the Army didn’t have the resources to enforce the central government’s writ? If Pakistan fails, it won’t be because the US or India or anybody else did something. It’ll be because of the moral cowardice of the green suits in Rawalpindi.

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First Talibanization…then Invasion…and then Disintegration…in that order!

- Posted by Mortal

We don’t need to talk about an invasion. Nobody is going to do that. The likely outcome is that there will be a scramble for the nukes if the Taliban reach Islamabad. And realistically, were that to happen, most of the Pak generals would co-operate. They’d probably readily trade the coordinates of the nukes for visas to the UK or the US. They sure as hell would not want to live in a 100% talibanized Pakistan.

I doubt anyone would care what happens once the outsiders have captured, bribed, bought on the black market, etc. all the nukes in the country. There’s really no risk of an invasion.

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Keith
There is no denying that Pakistan faces grave internal challenges at the moment. The USSR was an expansionist regime and ventured into destructive pursuits.
Let me tell you honestly, there are many serious questions, you cannot just simply make Pakistan an escapegoat for US policy failures in Afghanistan. Had US made the appropriate policy changes after the Soviest withdrew from Af in 1989, many of today’s problems would have been minimized. We were allies during cold war and the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, what took place after that caused a great sense of betrayal in Pakistan.
I admit, we might have also committed our shares of mistakes. But does the US also recognizes Pakistan’s regional interests, is the US willing to take them into consideration.

I think once lines have been drawn, and once Pakistan defines its interests in clear terms and says ‘hey, look this is it’. This is the way forward, where do you stand? can we work together or are we on a collision course?

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Keith
“And realistically, were that to happen, most of the Pak generals would co-operate. They’d probably readily trade the coordinates of the nukes for visas to the UK or the US. They sure as hell would not want to live in a 100% talibanized Pakistan.”

Pakistan Army is a nationalistic Army like the Turkish Army. You never expect the Pakistan Army to do what you are suggesting.
I know a 3000 strong US Marines task Force remains standby in Afghanistan to take out Pak nukes if need arises. But considering the well guarded unknown storage sites and dummy nukes to decieve any such plans. It is very unlikely Pakistani nukes can be gained control of.

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http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn -content-library/dawn/news/world/pakista n-is-abdicating-to-the-taliban-clinton–b i

“Pakistan giving up to militants: Hillary”

“In a testimony before the House Foreign Affairs Committee, Mrs Clinton warned that nuclear-armed Pakistan was becoming a ‘mortal threat’ to the world”

“And I want to take this occasion … to state unequivocally that not only do the Pakistani government officials, but the Pakistani people and the Pakistani diaspora … need to speak out forcefully against a policy that is ceding more and more territory to the insurgents”

‘I don’t hear that kind of outrage or concern coming from enough people that would reverberate back within the highest echelons of the civilian and military leadership of Pakistan,’ she said

“Another US general, David Petraeus, told a Harvard forum on Tuesday that the ‘military situation in Afghanistan will probably deteriorate in the near term’. He said: ‘We do believe we can achieve progress, but it’s going to get worse before it gets better. … There will be tough months ahead.’

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http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn -content-library/dawn/news/world/pakista n,+afghanistan+threat+to+israel+israeli+ fm-rs

TEL AVIV: Israel has shifted its focus from Iran and has now identified Pakistan and Afghanistan as the biggest threat it faces.

Israel’s hardliner Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman, in his first interview to a Russian daily after taking charge, has said that since he began warning against the nuclear threat from Iran, nuclear threats have become more prevalent.

However, he said that a more urgent problem has developed in Pakistan and Afghanistan.
He said Pakistan is nuclear and unstable, and Afghanistan is faced with a potential Taliban takeover, and the combination form a contiguous area of radicalism ruled in the spirit of Bin Laden.

Lieberman is of the view that countries like Pakistan and Afghanistan are a threat not only to Israel, but to the global order as a whole.

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Where do you see ‘Pakistani nuclear retaliation’?
Guys Pakistan is a nuclear power. FYI
- Posted by Umair

Umair, as I said before, all Pakistani arguments end with one statement “WE HAVE NUKES”. Yes, Umair you do & the whole world knows that & that’s why the world is watching Pakistan without blinking an eyelid. Do you even understand the repercussions of any ‘Pakistani nuclear retaliation’ that you speak of?
If, Pakistan, as much as even moves it’s nukes, to load warheads, it would mean the absolute end of Pakistan. The nukes that you talk about won’t just appear out of thin air in the sky & hit it’s target. There’s enough technology in place, to detect the movement of any nukes. I know, these are desperate times for your country but of you think that nukes are the answer to anything, then you’re certainly, still clueless.

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive
 

Umair,

There is no doubt that the West (not just the US) made mistakes in the post-Soviet era. But what’s happening today has a much bigger Pakistani hand in this. Care to explain this map:

http://www.longwarjournal.org/maps/Pakis tan/NWFP_redmap_04142008.php

How can your government, security services and military allow an insurgency to grow to the point where it effectively controls one eighth of your country? This is what frustrates us in the west. I don’t doubt the professionalism of the PA but its will to engage the threats that Pakistan faces today is an entirely different matter. You cannot argue that the US has not helped in the post 9/11 era. What happened to the 12 billion Pakistan received? The US alone puts in more aid into Pakistan than the international community puts into Afghanistan every year. Surely, you can’t say that the west is not doing enough to help Pakistan.

On the issue of whether Pak generals would co-operate if Pakistan falls apart. They certainly would. The rank and file maybe nationalistic but that does not mean your generals want to live under the Taliban. And by the time it reaches that point there will be no Pakistan Army to talk about. The more fanatical soldiers will be serving the Taliban. And the moderates (including most of the Generals) will be lined up outside the US, UK, Canadian and Aussie embassies. And it’s not just them. Most middle class Pakistanis already have visas and homes in the west. You may disagree but that’s reality. Those generals can certainly be turned. They are corrupt. How else you explain Musharraf’s fortune? Even the US CJCS is not as rich as Musharraf. Anyway, let’s just hope that such a day never comes where the CIA is flying out ex-PA generals just so they can give us coordinates to nukes in the desert.

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Keith
I guess the CIA can do some pretty nasty things than merely giving safe passages to rogue military commanders divulging classified national secrets.
I think Pakistan Army has a professional command structure. However, let me tell you it is pretty unlikely scenario.
Also, the ISI might have learned a thing or two from its boss the CIA during the Afghan war.

However, you are a new entrant on this blog and have come up with some good arguments. It was nice interacting with you and learning your views.

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Exactly six years ago I published a book on Pakistan, and the last sentence concluded: “Before writing Pakistan off as the hopelessly failed state that its critics believe it to be, Washington may have one last opportunity to ensure that this troubled state will not become America’s biggest foreign policy problem in the last half of this decade.”…..

Stephen Cohen spoke before the International Development Research Centre in Ottawa, Canada.

http://www.brookings.edu/speeches/2009/0 409_pakistan_cohen.aspx

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Umair,

At the point we are talking about (where there is a scramble for the nukes) there will be no Pak Army (as constituted today). That’s what the world worries about. Those generals who cooperated would not be considered rogue by the rest of the world if the country is falling apart and they handed over the nukes. At that point, Pakistan and the Army would have a lot more to worry about (country falling apart), then worry about bombs in the desert. We can agree to disagree.

But I would like your thoughts on the map I posted. I would like to hear a Pak perspective on the spreading insurgency.

In the West, it has ruined Pakistan’s image. For most Westerners, Pakistan = Afghanistan when it comes to national image and it’s mostly because of this failure to tackle the insurgency and the AQ and Afghan Taliban safe havens in the FATA. It has made Pakistan look so bad that most Pakistanis who live in the west are often quite ashamed. I have Pakistani friends and neighbours who often won’t admit to anyone they are Pakistani when they first meet anyone.

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Exactly six years ago I published a book on Pakistan, and the last sentence concluded: “Before writing Pakistan off as the hopelessly failed state that its critics believe it to be, Washington may have one last opportunity to ensure that this troubled state will not become America’s biggest foreign policy problem in the last half of this decade.”…..

Stephen Cohen spoke before the International Development Research Centre in Ottawa, Canada.

http://www.brookings.edu/speeches/2009/0 409_pakistan_cohen.aspx
- Posted by Umair

And in my sidebar meeting with Dr. Cohen I asked him straight out if he considered Pakistan a failed state. He told me that he thinks of Pakistan has a perpetually failing state where singular aspects fail serially, ie. the government fails then recovers, then the economy fails then recovers, then security fails, etc. By any classical definition if all those things happened at once we would call that a failed state. That was Dr. Cohen’s view of the situation. He started the meeting by joking that when we left the room we would be a lot gloomier about Pakistan. After hearing that he thinks Pakistan is bordering on failed state status I was pretty gloomy for sure.

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Umair,

You really should read Dr. Cohen’s book: The Idea of Pakistan.

You might be surprised to see what the image is of Pakistan in the rest of the world. And he’s actually a Pakistan booster. Some of the more pessimistic writers have already started calling Pakistan a failed state that breeds jihadism…and they aren’t even Indian!

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Dr. Cohen’s book is here online:

http://books.google.ca/books?id=-78yjVyb QfkC&dq=the+idea+of+pakistan&printsec=fr ontcover&source=bn&hl=en&ei=caDvSeuLNpnf lQfVy4Ax&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&r esnum=4#PPP1,M1

I would consider his views quite important, especially since the Obama administration seems to take him quite seriously.

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Keith/Umair

Pakistan was close to be declared a terrorist state before 9/11 under Clinton Adm/Sec Albright. It is just the geographical location that saved Pakistan.

Nearly 10yrs later Pakistan is still there.

Despite all the -ve policy etc of the West, if Pakistan–the whole nation– is here bec of the West, then it sure is the problem of Pakistan. Pakistan does not have leaders & the plitical system & the accountability….West could do all that because Pakistan allowed that. An economically independent and progressive Pakistan would not have been in this bad state. I always hear from pakistanis that Jinnah/Liaqat Ali Khan passed away soon after partition and that sealed the deal. The fact is Army never allowed a politician to emerge until now. Corruption is everywhere in the world, it is the system that Jinnah wanted never happened—Dream is not enough. 100 Zardaris et al cannot hurt Pakistan if there is a system in place.

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Keith
“But I would like your thoughts on the map I posted. I would like to hear a Pak perspective on the spreading insurgency. ”

Keith, personally i tell you we are pretty badly shaken up here in Islamabad. The Marriot Hotel bombing was a real shock to me personally, as it was next to our office building.

Also, I was only able to grasp the situation after having a look at the map. We need to turn the red areas into green for sure. But it is very difficult to tell Army officers to fight their own people. I have many friends and class mates who serve at the rank of Captain in the PA. Last year I spoke to one, I got an impression the PA is very pro-American, the junior officers have litrelly been brain washed, they understand its important to have a close US relationship.

Pakistan shouldnt have gone this way, I myself have travelled worked and live abroad in a small stint right after college. I know what overseas Pakistanis might go through sometimes. But what can we do?
I saw the red Mosque siege and Benazir assassination literally infront of my eyes. Last couple of years were pretty disastrous. If only there was a magical formula to turn things right. But real problems need real solutions.
Pakistan has shown persistently failing symptoms and yet managed to come back from the brink everytime somehow.

But I would like to state, despite all this when you come across audiences, let people know there are still Pakistanis who believe in their country. Who are willing to show 100% committment to Pakistan, and who have hope. We will not let Pakistan fail at any costs, my hope is we Pakistanis pull ourselves together and are able to tackle the challenges ahead.
Also, thanks for suggesting the book, I am into reading and will certainly grab it and read.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Also Keith one more thing you asked me to explain the map you posted:

Just see the following article:
Pakistan and the myth of Islamic Terrorism …by Rakesh Saxena

http://www.odidia.com/index.php?page=pak istan-the-myth-of-islamic-terrorism

He argues, the problem is social and that those Taliban are no global threat or not waging any sort of “Jehad” or holy crusade against America. I hope he is right, than with social investment we could stem the problem.

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Umair,

I get that it’s difficult for the Pakistani Army to fight its own people. As a military officer myself I understand that. That’s the hard part for any country that has an insurgency. It’s difficult for the Indians with the Naxalites. It was difficult for the Brits in Ireland. It’s been difficult for the Georgians (S. Ossetia), the Russians (Chechnya), etc.

That it’s difficult is understandable. But that can’t be an excuse. Can you imagine the reaction in the UK if the British Army had turned around and said that it was too difficult to fight their own people and withdrawn from Northern Ireland? What about if the Sri Lankan Army said, ‘Screw it. Let the Tamils have their homeland.’ That’s essentially what the Pakistan Army is doing right now in the NWFP and FATA. Clinton is bang on when she says that Pakistan has given up.

Normally, the world would not care. However, the PA’s abrogation of its responsibility to ensure the security and stability of Pakistan has had a global impact. By directly ceding control to groups like the TTP, TNSM, etc. the government of Pakistan has essentially agreed to allow safe havens for AQ and the Afghan Taliban on Pakistani soil.

I can’t see the Americans tolerating this for very long. I have met US officers operating in RC (East) who know exactly where their enemy is. They can seem them through the binos sometimes. And they can certainly see them through Predator feeds, satellite imagery, etc. How long do you think they’ll tolerate insurgents killing their soldiers and then running back across the border?

The worst case scenario for Pakistan would be another 9/11 that originates in the FATA. What do you think the consequences of that would be? And with pretty much all of the NWFP in Taliban hands, that attack could originate from settled areas. Heck, Fazlullah is asking Bin Laden to set up shop in Swat.

Any Pakistani who is truly patriotic will understand that the immediate and largest threat to Pakistan is the Taliban wave that is sweeping through the country. Even if you perceive India to be an existential threat (which most of us in the west are pretty skeptical about by the way), it can wait. Your fight here and now should be with the Talibs.

If you do not take on this scourge, there will be no Pakistan to glorify. What good will all the nuclear bombs be if the Taliban take over? Do you really think Pakistan will be turning out F-16 pilots and nuclear scientists with the type of education that the Taliban will be implementing? The Taliban will stop educating half your population (women), destroy the middle class, destroy your culture (arts, music, sufi shrines, etc.), destroy your fledgling democracy, etc. Is that the Pakistan that you will want to live in? Is that what Jinnah had in mind?

Umair, if you care for your country you will post that map on your fridge, in your office, in your morning tea/coeffee shop, etc. so that people start talking about it. What frustrates me and all those in my line of work is to look at Pakistan and see the potential that’s wasted. That map says it all. And yet every time I venture across these blogs all I see is that many, many Pakistanis are in denial.

I don’t doubt that there are many good Pakistanis who are fighting for their country. I have had the chance to meet General Talat Masood, Ayesha Siddiqa, producers at Geo TV, etc. These are people who truly care for you country. They see the chance for a westernized muslim country like Turkey to emerge. But even they concede that all that is wasted when Pakistanis focus on India. Talat Masood told me a few months back in a discussion that he thought fomenting insurgency in India was the biggest mistake the Pakistan Army ever made. I wonder if there are any other Pakistanis courageous enough to admit that.

Posted by Keith | Report as abusive
 

All we can discuss about are the various possibilities based on the current situation. No one can predict for sure how things will change. There are many factors involved. Here are what I think are possible scenarios.

1. Taliban fights the Pakistani establishment by means of terrorizing the population with assassinations and suicide attacks. Then Al Qaeda moves in big time. Consulates of many countries like US, UK, India are closed and blown up. Hostages are held for ransom and deals. US begin to prepare for a large scale war to settle Af-Pak region. There is absolute dog fight to get the nukes. A full scale war erupts where the goal is to dismantle the Taliban and eliminate the nukes. Just like Iraq, the ground realities become a lot worse than predicted and it leads to utter disaster for all parties involved.

2. Pakistani establishment decides to draw India into a conflict by unleashing one of its terror groups like LeT big time. India has no choice but to retaliate. This unites everyone in Pakistan and buys time for them to deflect off the internal strife. This can even turn the US against India because it can damage American led efforts.

3. Taliban takes over Pakistan and then does nothing. The US is facing more financial crisis and wants to get out. They make a deal with the Taliban not to allow Al Qaeda on their soil and the US leaves the region. Nation building, maintaining everything and eliminating threats is proving to be too expensive. Once the US leaves, Taliban turns around and takes over Afghanistan. Now it has two nations under its thumb. India will face them next and it will lead to a bloody nuclear war the world has never seen.

4. US led coalition plans a pre-emptive strike to save Pakistan from Taliban. This time Pakistan turns a blind eye allowing the US to mow down FATA and NWFP. Taliban is trapped from all sides and surrenders.

I like option 4 because I am sure most sensible Pakistanis do not want Taliban running them. Also, Pakistanis will get a chance to learn how not to live after this. They may now avoid going the path they have been before. Terrorism does not pay whether it is directed at others or not. It always comes back to bite everyone back.

My long term suggestion is to split the region up into smaller states and manage them to safety. This will ensure that terrorism and Islamic radicalism do not spread fast. Some states might progress much faster than others providing barriers to evil tendencies. Today’s Pakistan resembles an alcoholic with severely damaged liver. It needs new transplanted liver with the bad one removed (ISI/military/Jihadist nexus) and helped to live on support equipment.

 

Just see the following article:
Pakistan and the myth of Islamic Terrorism …by Rakesh Saxena

http://www.odidia.com/index.php?page=pak istan-the-myth-of-islamic-terrorism

He argues, the problem is social and that those Taliban are no global threat or not waging any sort of “Jehad” or holy crusade against America. I hope he is right, than with social investment we could stem the problem.
- Posted by Umair

I agree that the problem is socio-economic which is why the problem is one that only Pakistan can solve. We in the west cannot do anything about it. Pakistanis are going to have to make some hard choices. If you don’t start addressing these socio-economic concerns soon, the Taliban will start migrating into Punjab. South Punjabis have very similar grievances as the Swatis.

As a first step, land re-distribution is a must. It’s difficult but absolutely necessary. If India can pull it off, I am sure that Pakistan can do it. The step after that should be a re-invigoration of your public school system. Madrassas are inadequate. We in the west taught kids to read using the bible, in one room schools. But that was over a century ago. It’s time for Pakistan to catch up. The third step would be the re-invigoration of your civic court system. The reason Pashtuns are clamoring for Sharia courts is because the civic court system in Pakistan can’t deliver. Fix it.

The West can’t help you with these problems. This will take leadership and effort from within. Nor can you blame the west here. We didn’t create your land ownership problem. We didn’t decimate your public school system. Sure, the US meddled with madrassas, but they didn’t tell you guys to virtually shut down the public school system. And we didn’t create the mess that are your civic courts. These problems are all Pakistani creations. And it’s high time Pakistanis started working on them…for the good of Pakistan and the world.

Posted by Keith | Report as abusive
 

Umair,

I am impressed with your frank talks with Keith. I am sure you wouldn’t have entertained such a talk with Indians. And it is that attitude that has destroyed Pakistan. Your military leaders did not believe that democratic leaders will have the boldness to take on India. Remember how Musharraf ran the Kargil war without even consulting Nawaz Sharif. Or how Benazir Bhutto as a Prime Minister had no clue what was going in at Kahuta. The military did everything with a single minded plan – get at India. Every alliance, every action was done with strategic advantage over India. Even you reflect that myopic mindset. The way out is to disengage from this paranoia about India and begin to focus on the internal threat. Pakistan allowed to breed this monster in its belly just to unleash it at will and it is a potent weapon. But it took a major risk by assuming that this monster can also begin to eat the internal organs if trapped for any reason. Pakistan is being watched closely from every corner of the world now for the wrong reason. You might say that it is none of our business. But the events inside your country have to be monitored so that we are not affected by them in any way. I am already beginning to see rats leaving your ship. I see articles about Balochistan and Sindh wanting to go their own way. I saw one article which said MQM is run by India(!). It was written by an army officer of PA. I’ll find that reference and post it.

 

Mauryan,

I fear scenario 2 is most likely. Most western analysts are betting that an attack is coming. There is no doubt that LeT or somebody else is prepping something. Maybe from Bangladesh or Nepal, etc. since they already used the sea route and Kashmir is pretty bottled up. I pray it is one that India can \’absorb\’ not one that will compel the Indians to respond.

Any catastrophic attack on India that prompts a response would have even worse consequences for Pakistan. They\’d pull the relatively meager forces they have on the western border and rush them eastward. That would be hell for us in Afghanistan. The TTP, TNSM, etc. would all get tons of time to rest, retrain, re-arm and once the India-Pak confrontation was over they\’d start making in-roads into Punjab….and that would be the end of Pakistan as we know it. I am sincerely hoping that the Paks understand this and have sufficient sense to keep their dogs on the leash. For their own sake.

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Mauryan,

I bet you that the U.S. Fifth Fleet Central Command can respond heavily to the Taliban and even more so to a Rogue Pakistan Military that will one day betray the U.S. The betrayal has already begun as the Taliban make inroads into interior Pakistan Punjab, unchallenged by the Pakistani Army and especially unchallenged by the Pakistani citizens.

I doubt Mr. Choudari is going to open his mouth in front of the Taliban.

It is best if the Punjabi Pakistani army Fauji’s fully comply to make the Afghan mission a success, this is best for regional peace. But it seems more and more that Kayani and Pasha, the way they are resisting the states and not engaging the Taliban in a frontal assault, it seems that they are actually helping the Taliban, to ensure the U.S. is tied down in Pakistan and the Afghanistan mission fails.

I think this is what people were referring to during the American election, when they said that Barack Obama would be tested. The question is, do they have the bold muscle to punch Pakistan in the face and knock them senseless until they comply?

If Pakistan does not comply, it is time for Barack to make a style statement and Cruise Missile at once, each and everyone of the Kashmiri Mujahideen Terrorist Proxy Army Strategic Asset Training camps in Pakistan. Finish them all in one or two days. The whole point of this is to show through action, that the U.S. means business.

The time for treating Pakistan with kid gloves is over. If Pakistan does not comply, it is time to start disintegrating Pakistan, pieces at a time to contain the Taliban.

In the words of Sec. Hillary Clinton, Pakistan is becoming a mortal threat to the world, especially Israel.
The Israel Lobby AIPAC in the U.S. will never let the Taliban take over.

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Keith,

A nuclear war is not worth it no matter who gets to bear the brunt of the nukes. Pakistanis are human too. I will never sleep in peace if nukes are dropped on any population. Nukes don’t kill people. People kill people. May be a grander scheme to eliminate further tension in the region is to bring the parties involved – India, Pakistan and Iran and have them agree to remove the nukes voluntarily. They must be given nuclear umbrella protection. This effort must start right away. India will not easily give up the nukes because we have China sitting next to us. And there is some level of understanding in this regard. But if it can be accomplished somehow, we can set up the stage for a global effort on removing all nukes. Once the nukes are removed from the region, the terrorist threat will weaken. My feeling is that Islamic radicals seem emboldened by having the nukes with their country or any friendly islamic country. Is there any serious discussion going on in this regard? I want no nukes in this world for the sake of all humans. Even though we taunt many silly Pakistanis on this forum, in all seriousness, we want nukes out of our region. This includes China as well.

 

Latest

“JUI chief Maulana Fazlur Rehman on Wednesday made the startling disclosure on the floor of the National Assembly that the Taliban had reached near Mansehra and might soon reach Tarbela Dam.

“If the Taliban continue to move at this pace, they will soon be knocking at the doors of Islamabad as the Margala Hills seem to be the only hurdle in their march towards the federal capital,””

http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_deta il.asp?Id=21689

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It is equally important for Indians to understand the internal changes Pakistan have gone through last few years. In 2008 for the first time in history a General and President Musharraf had to resign due to the public pressure. The 2008 elections could be termed as the most transparent, Pakistan has returned to democracy, people fought for two years in the streets to restore the independent judicial system. There are many positives, even it is said during the Back channel talks with India the serving generals were asking questions like can my economy support me when I buy expensive arms for my Army, can my foreign mininstry and civilian government support me and provide political support when we make certain decisions. Today for first time, the Prime Minister, President and Army chief are united. The people of Pakistan are empowered, we have a free press and electronic media.
The only thing lacking is leadership and a cohesive approach to tackle the millitancy problem. I am sure we will get there, also the new generation doesnt see India as an enemy. India must reciprocate, India cannot become the kind of reginal power it is aspiring to be if it is bogged down with disputes with Pakistan.
Lastly, I believe the only approach that should work with the millitancy problem is education, providing healthcare and roads, job opportunities and better living standard in the FATA and NWFP region as well as Baluchistan. This is the only way people will shun the millitants and get along with their lives.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Umair.

Well put. Just like any AA program the first step is admitting that you have a problem. You have sort of done that. Now if you can get other 173 million people in your country to drop their conspiracy theories and come to the same understanding, we’ll be on the road to recovery.

If you want to know why the west is worried for Pakistan, read some of the suff coming out in our media:

http://www.vancouversun.com/Life/Pakista n+regresses/1524670/story.html

These are not people that the world considers responsible enough to run a country, let alone have nuclear weapons.

When it comes to India, let them worry about their problems. You’ve got far bigger fish to fry.

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So, we’re finally seeing some agreeing, on this blog. You are correct, Umair. Educating your population & providing basic services like health-care, would go a long way, in beating the radicalization, which is sweeping Pakistan today & changing the ideology of the country from being Indo-centric to socio-economic progressive, would be a good start. If you say that the younger generation of Pakistanis don’t see India as the enemy, that’s a good sign. I also agree that India, for it’s part, must certainly reciprocate, once Pakistan shows it’s sincerity, in becoming a genuine friend.

Currently, it seems to most of the world that Pakistanis are still in denial or haven’t grasped the grievousness of the current situation in Pakistan. You mentioned the recent long march & that was certainly commendable. But why aren’t moderate & liberal Pakistanis pretesting vigorously against the Taliban & extremism? Why aren’t there enough loud voices, asking your Government & the army, to fight extremist forces? Why aren’t there more long marches in Pakistani cities, protesting against the radicalism, that is threatening the moral fabric of your country & it’s very survival?

I hope Pakistanis wake up & realize the seriousness of the situation before it’s too late.

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Umair,

Until Mumbai attacks happened, Indians did not have Pakistan in their minds. Life was going in a progressive direction. IPL was going on. India had great cricket series at home. People were minding their business. The sudden occurrence of the Mumbai attacks turned everyone’s attention towards Pakistan. We knew right off the bat that this was a Pakistani sponsored militancy. And it was shocking when the Pakistani media, establishment denied everything outright. It was a good fortune that the Indian security managed to capture one of the terrorists alive and the pandora’x box was opened. Even if one accused the Indians for reacting emotionally in the initial stages, it was very painful to see the official government of Pakistan trying to cover up the whole thing with layers and layers of denial – Kasab is not a Pakistani, there is no Faridkot, it should be Indian terrorists, it is not LeT and so on. If only Indians had died in the attack, your country would have gotten away by washing it all off. The FBI and the British had to step in and tell your government to co-operate and the reluctance from Pakistan to work with India on this was even more frustrating. No they are delaying it by saying that the evidence is only information, it is not adequate, get us this, get us that, it is now a low priority and so on.

The Mumbai events, its aftermath, events in Pakistan have destroyed the goodwill in our people. I now want to know whether it is India that is playing the regional power or it is Pakistan. Sending in trained militants into a neighboring country boldly and acting defiant after the damage is done, blaming India for keeping two embassies in Afghanistan for terrorist activities in Pakistan with no proof, blowing up an Indian embassy and so on will not bring any trust. We have gone through the whole sequence of arguments with Pakistanis including you on various blogs in this forum. Kashmir cannot be wrested away by violent means. It will only make things worse. Despite all that you keep parroting the same thing telling us not to have regional power ambitions. Should you be telling us what we should do? We are a big country. Whatever we do will look big.

Your country should have known its measure and acted responsibly. It is now paying the price for its myopic view of India. In more than twenty odd blogs that I have seen you on this forum, I have seldom seen you treat Indians with any respect the way you are dealing with Keith or other Westerners. This double standard in not only in you, it is in literally all Pakistanis. That attitude is the core of the problem that has snowballed to the state today.

Hope that from here on I will see more mature response from you at least and we will reciprocate it if you do. Let us start at our level first before expecting our nations to do the same.

 
 

Pakistan sends troops to area grabbed by Taliban

•Pakistan sends troops to push back against latest Taliban advance

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapc f/04/23/pakistan.taliban.control.swat/in dex.html

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Pakistan’s ambassador to the United States, Husain Haqqani, told CNN on Wednesday that the situation was not as dire as Clinton described.

“Yes, we have a challenge,” Haqqani said. “But, no, we do not have a situation in which the government or the country of Pakistan is about to fall to the Taliban.”

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Haqqani compared the Swat peace deal to the deals U.S. commanders in Iraq made to peel insurgents away from Islamic jihadists blamed for the worst attacks on civilians there.

Prime Minister Syed Yusuf Raza Gilani said at a news briefing Thursday: “I want to explain to the West and Hillary Clinton about the agreement. … The agreement is actually a very good thing. … It brings two parties to an agreement based on mutual understanding.”
“If there is an effort of Taliban-ization, we have the right to review our policy.”

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Hillary Clinton on Pakistan

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapc f/04/23/pakistan.taliban.control.swat/in dex.html#cnnSTCVideo

Referring to Pakistani diaspora and their successes in US in different walks of life.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Seems like a pretty weak response to me. They didn’t support the local lashkars who tried to fight off the Taliban. Then after the district is taken over they send in maybe 8 plattoons (according to Dawn) of lightly armed Frontier Consabulary with a mandate to protect police stations and infrastructure. The militants are still patrolling in the district.

‘Haqqani compared the Swat peace deal to the deals U.S. commanders in Iraq made to peel insurgents away from Islamic jihadists blamed for the worst attacks on civilians there.’
- Posted by Umair

With all due respect Umair, that’s BS and you know it. When the yanks made the deals it was with Arab/Sunni tribes to peel off Islamists. In Swat, your government made deals WITH the Islamists. The results speak for themselves. Violence went down in Iraq. In Pakistan it is going up. This is a Neville Chamberlain moment for Pakistan.

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Keith
You know the stakes, US has been through the situation in Fallujah in 2004 and it took time to stabilize.
I am hopeful Pakistani security forces will take time but surely regain control.

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Even though I argue with Pakistanis like Umair, spitting venom, at a moment like this, I’d like wish you Pakistanis the very best in tackling the animals who have hijacked Islam and are inching towards taking over your country. I pray that they lose so that the world can return to normalcy. You do not deserve to live like slaves. Not even the ones that are under the control of Taliban right now. Do not worry about India, do not worry about anything else. Just fight this monster and come out of it. After defeating it, make sure that you never allow your country to be hijacked by selfish landlords and double dealing military leaders. They are the ones who led your country to the state it is facing today. I will always support efforts of this kind anywhere. Moderate people have to rule and fanaticism has to be nipped in the bud.

 

@Umair, Mauryan(comment if you wish)

Umair, where are your great champions of democracy in the face of the Taliban, who seek to destroy democracy? I am talking about Iftikhar Chaudhary the Chief Justic, Nawaz Sharif, Zardari and even Hamid Gul??

These guys have shown their true colours that they were out for their own selfish gain. They have not got a shred of true courage to fight the real fight, the demise of democracy in Pakistan and the rise of Radical Militant Islam.

Umair, is there even one amongst you in Pakistan who has the courage to admit that what you have done for the last 60 years was wrong and India is not the enemy? Is there one among you who has the courage to kill the Taliban leadership?

If there is not, consider this the starting of the disintegration of Pakistan, by the Taliban, the greatest threat to your statehood, NOT India.

Muslims will be beheading, slaughtering and maiming muslims from now on, NOT India.

It is high time that you finally admit you were wrong to antagonize India. What we have been saying to you Umair, does not mean much, I know and will not mean much until the Taliban takes away someone you love. Then you will feel the reality of how we feel outside of Pakistan towards the Taliban, when they murdered the young professional Ahadiyya couple, when they flog young girls and behead people. I hope you channel every bit of rage you can muster to fight this Islamic Radical Virus that is digesting Pakistan at an alarming rate.

Pakistan’s disintegration has begun, and still Pakistan is keep all eyes at India. India did nothing to Paksitan throughout all this. All separatists in Pakistan are going to try to get their day any time now. It is time to move all the troops away from the Eastern border and move them to places within Pakistan.

Your foolish ISI Pasha and Pak Army Kayani, whether you agree with me or not, the fact is that their inaction or deliberate support of the Taliban is disintegrating Pakistani society before your eyes. Your society is disintegrating as the under privileged, who live outside the Gated communities are joining the Taliban as paid soldiers.

We are tired of optimistic talk and inaction and want to see action and want to see more Pakistani’s, in civilian and military power challenge militant Islam head on.

If the U.S. sees constant foot dragging by Pakistan, they will step in, and this will further destablize Pakistan.

What are you going to do?

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive
 

Umair,

Good luck. India is not your enemy, I hope you are beginning to realize that now. Kashmir is not an issue, I hope you realize that now. Radical Islam is the enemy of Moderate Islam, I hope you see that and realize that.

Before things get better, as the cancer spreads, have the courage to weather the coming 100 “Red Mosques” that are going to ravage Pakistan, once you Pakistani’s come to your senses to finally engage the Taliban.

Again, “good night and good luck”.

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@Mauryan,

This may in fact be an Islamic revolution in Pakistan like it was in Iran.

The key difference is that Pakistan has nukes, and this very fact will make Pakistan’s future struggle extremely bloody and slaughterous. The US and India will not tolerate a nuclearized Talibani Pakistan.

Foreign powers like the U.S. and Soviets may choose to intervene, if they feel their stablity is threatened.

The world will do what it has to do to and should do, denuclearize Pakistan if law and order in Punjab State collapses.

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Yesterday from Radio Netherlands:

Islamabad
And as the Taliban get closer to the capital Islamabad, Mr Hussain says there is a genuine feeling of alarm that echoes Ms Clinton’s own words.

“There is a sense of panic in Islambad and there is talk about how to stop the Taliban but also fears that it is too late. The government has yet to put its policy in place, they are under pressure from the international community and they haven’t mobilized public support.”

And as the government falters, the Taliban are continuing to grow in both strength and numbers. Mr Hussain continues:

“More and more unemployed youth are turning to the Taliban and many others are joining up out of fear. If the government has abdicated responsibility and the administration in the area has collapsed, then people will look to the Taliban for their own security.”

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Perhaps I am wrong, this is not an Islamic Revolution, but social human de-evolution, as fear is the large component and society is going backwards hundreds of years in Pakistan.

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Mauryan
“Even though I argue with Pakistanis like Umair, spitting venom, at a moment like this,”

On more than one occasion, I have accepted making our share of mistakes. I am entitled to let my opinion known and am not spitting venom. Most of the time, I have only talked back and defended Pakistan against someone who is simply bashing Pakistan. I repeat we have nothing to do with India. We are part of the muslim world an dour aspirations are different.
I restate what I stated before, normalization of relations with Pakistan is in India’s interest. India cannot attain its place it deserves in global arena if it gets bogged down in disputes with Pakistan. And I heartily accept your good wishes and am thank ful for that.
In Pakistan, whatever the problems are there are efforts underway to tackle those.

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Global watcher
With due respect please note that Kashmir certainly IS an issue which is outstanding and needs a lasting solution. Amid all the hue and cry of ‘Talibanization’ dont expect to brush aside and play down Kashmir. If you do it will come to haunt you later. Let the Indians be open and talk about Kashmir head on.
Thanks

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Mullen is in Is’bad. Maybe he can get Kayani’s ass moving. You know it’s bad when Maulana Fazlur Rehman is worried: “If the Taliban continue to move at this pace they will soon be knocking at the doors of Islamabad. The Margalla Hills, appears to be the only hurdle in their march toward the federal capital.”

Excellent piece from the New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/23/world/ asia/23buner.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&hp

and Time Magazine:

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0  ,8599,1893370,00.html

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http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/24/world/ asia/24pstan.html?hp

America’s patience is wearing thin with Pakistan. Check out the comments for this article, in the times, today.

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Global Watcher,

I can understand the impulse to engage in a little schadenfreude at the expense of the Paks. But surely you recognize that this threat is even more dangerous to India than the regime that’s there today. I would caution any Indian from feeling pleasure at the Paks troubles. We live in troubled times and India is not going to be immune from the developments in Pakistan. These black turbaned fanatics are tens of miles from bases that hold nuclear weapons. We in the west have been frustrated with Pakistani inaction for a while but now is not the time to take pleasure with their troubles. For the sake of the world and India, let’s wish them well.

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Umair writes: “I have only talked back and defended Pakistan against someone who is simply bashing Pakistan. I repeat we have nothing to do with India. We are part of the muslim world an dour aspirations are different.”

In the same vein, Indians are defending India’s stance when others are engaging in India bashing. Indian priorities are not Pakistan centric. We are simply part of the world and would like to contribute towards its progress in every way possible.

 

Keith writes: “These black turbaned fanatics are tens of miles from bases that hold nuclear weapons. We in the west have been frustrated with Pakistani inaction for a while but now is not the time to take pleasure with their troubles”

I fully agree. These lunatics will not think twice before “teaching a lesson to kaffirs.” If ordinary Pakistanis can feel empowered by the nukes and proudly mention it in every alternate sentence, I can imagine what a completely brainwashed fanatic will perceive India. Taliban will not try to spread into India, if it takes over Pakistan. It will simply give an ultimatum to clear Kashmir by a certain deadline. And then it will simply unleash the nuclear weapons loaded onto all the rockets and fighter planes that it has and dust off its hands. It may not even give a deadline. This is the only worry India must have. If Taliban’s rule becomes near certain, India should work with the US and the other powers to remove the nukes beyond the reach of Taliban. I do not know if that is possible or not. Right now, most Indian politicians are busy contesting in elections and planning for horsetrading. I don’t think there is much alertness about what is going on inside Pakistan. They usually wake up after a bunch of desperadoes cause havoc amongst general population.

 

Keith
You know the stakes, US has been through the situation in Fallujah in 2004 and it took time to stabilize.
I am hopeful Pakistani security forces will take time but surely regain control.

- Posted by Umair

Fallujah wasn’t within a hundred miles of a nuclear weapons complex or an operational fighter base.

What boggles my mind is that 500 militants managed to cower a district with a million residents. These aren’t terrorist. They are criminals with guns that are no bigger or better than that carried by most gangsters worldwide. The Pashtuns should grow a pair and chase them out with their chappals.

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Sanjeev, Keith ,Mauryan, Rajeev

In Washington, a New York Times report that Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) agency is directly assisting militant groups fighting against U.S. and NATO forces in Afghanistan has barely raised an eyebrow. Veteran Pakistan watchers here have known — or suspected — as much for several years. “It confirms what a lot of us have been saying for a long time,” says Lisa Curtis, South Asia expert at the Heritage Foundation.

Thats the paper cutting.

Now,What options would US consider if the Taliban spread remains sluggish (means, not attacking Islamabad) but Swat and Bruner remain occupied under Sharia law for a longtime. In which case, Al Qaida has an official address and moreso freedom within a few hundred miles of NWPF area. For a while, the drone attacks will continue but Taliban will use the attacks as a pretext to continue its own spread of rule and challenges the writ of the fed govt. The Pak Admin will fall for it and as a result pressurizes US to ground the drones. Acceding to the demand essentially means a ceasefire with Al Qaida and leaving them alone in Pak; while the latter keep planning and advancing its agenda in Afghan and pushing US lead forces toward Kabul. A very clever strategy of Al Qaida and Taliban indeed. Pak army has no stomach to fight the Taliban as is obvious. I see the ISI written all over it. We are throwing our tax dollars into this snake pit if you will. How does Obama propose to end this *open blackmail*. Give more billions, I suppose.

 

Keith
The President of Pakistan has special powers to invoke under the constitution of Pakistan, he is the supreme commander of Pakistan Armed Forces. Today he met one on one with ANP(Awami National Part) Leader, Asfand Yar Wali the Pushtun moderate party in power in the NWFP. The President was of the view that If Taliban did not give peace in Swat, the peace deal could be reviewed. Pakistan has an option to scrap the peace, President can invoke special powers under the constitution and order the PA to move in. Also, the Northern Air Command of Pakistan Air Force is located in Peshawar, the capital of NWFP. The new chief of staff of the Air Force visited recently and JF-17 Fighter squadron will be fully operational at the end of this year. The Pakistan Military Academy, located in Kakul, Abbottabad is also in NWFP. Pakistan has enough fire power to deal with millitants in that region. The outside world has to keep its nerve and rely on Pakistani security forces and government to deal with it.
My point is, Secretary Clinton’s remarks yesterday undermine the government of Pakistan. When you incite the Pakistani diaspora and Pakistani people in large part to stand up against the policies of their government, it is interference in the internal matters of a soverign state. this kind of approach will simply backfire. The US must rather bolster the Islamabad government than to undermine it.
Also, the US military is already engaged with the PA at advisory level to prop up the Frontier Corps and PA in large part for counter insurgency training. You are right, as Rakesh Saxena’s column suggests, these are not Global Jihadis, these are just criminal thugs, but Pakistani government wants to exhaust all the options before we unleash an all out military campaign.
No doubt, Islamabad and Rawalpindi are important military hubs. The Chaklala Garrison near Rawalpindi and very close to Islamabad Intl Airport houses the SPD(Strategic Plans Division) H.Q with command and control of strategic nuclear forces. So does the GHQ, PA in Rawalpindi. But rest assured, Pakistan is in control of the situation.

As far as India is concerned, it is very convenient for them to make loud hue and cry over Talibanization and deflect the focus from core issue between India and Pakistan, Kashmir.

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Sanjeev
“But haven’t things changed since then ? Can Pakistan afford to buy such expensive systems especially when it is in financial difficulties? And is India stepping up the pressure on it by continuing with its arms imports even as the economy slows down tempting Pakistan down the same route ?”

Sorry for late response on this, but I wanted to revisit your questions and reply.

Indeed, the geo-strategic envirnment is evolving quickly, Paistan cannot afford to purchase expensive defense technologies at this stage. Even back as 2005 after the earthquake, the F-16 purchases were scaled back due to lack of funding. The Headquarter of Army was to be transferred from Rawalpindi to Islamabad and has also been postponed for now.
India is playing it very wise, we hyave to admit. It is making the right choice by going for technological upgrades needed to tackle the challenges. Also, India knows this will give an edge over Pakistan and advantage is with India. Between the countries, both of them consider themself vulnerable against each other. For now India is one “UP” with advantage.

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Here is more of the bad news about Pakistan. The world is beginning to know each and every district in Pakistan the bad way (unfortunately).

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/04  /22/zakaria.pakistan/index.html

 

Keith
Also, just consider that during recent elections the people of Pakistan overwhelmingly elected moderate parties to power. Even the conservative religious parties like Jamat-e-Islami didnt do better than previous elections. The people of Pakistan do not support Taliban and Taliban do not enjoy any local support.
Despite this, I still feel it is for only Pakistan to decide what is best in antional interest.

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Umair writes: “As far as India is concerned, it is very convenient for them to make loud hue and cry over Talibanization and deflect the focus from core issue between India and Pakistan, Kashmir.”

India has many issues and insurgency in the Kashmir valley is one of them. Here is what you and other Pakistanis have to know. The current generation in India does not consider Kashmir as a disputed territory. It believes that Kashmir is an integral part of India and it also acknowledges that Azad Kashmir part as a territory of Pakistan. It does not want to negotiate an inch beyond this point. No matter how much Pakistan tries to rattle India by indulging in insurgency, India is not going to yield. In fact, Pakistan’s militant efforts seem to have strengthened India and united its people a lot more than before. And Pakistan’s obsession with Kashmir has affected the psyche of its people so much that every critical decision in history has been made with Kashmir in mind. This has a direct correlation to today’s situation in Pakistan.

Having settled with the belief that Kashmir as its integral territory, Indians want to make the LoC as the official border. That is the only thing they can negotiate with Pakistan. And both countries have an agreement to resolve this bilaterally as per the 1972 Simla accord, which throws out the earlier UN resolutions.

Indians perceive Pakistan’s obsession with Kashmir only as an attempt to settle the scores for Bangladesh and its break up so that Pakistan is not threatened. And it does not make any sense, because the sympathy shown to Kashmiri Indians by the Pakistanis seems like crocodile tears. Indians know how ruthless Pakistan was with East Pakistanis and Blochis.

As far as Indians are concerned, the Kashmir case is closed. We argue with each other on who was wrong, what could have been done etc. But that is only an argument and nothing else is going to happen.

So India is focused on a myriad of critical issues and tackling cross border terrorism, maoist guerillas, Naxalites, gangsters, mafia, drug traders, poachers, corruption etc fall under the same set of priorities. India deals with Kashmir only in regards to cross border terrorism and nothing else. Other than that Kashmir issues are treated much like the issues of any other state inside the Indian union.

So I do not know what India is trying to deflect. The perspective is totally different from the Indian view point – protecting territorial integrity. Pakistan will not be able to sustain this insurgency anymore because of stringent economic aid conditions and the money involved in operations of this kind will bleed Pakistan terribly and accelerate its collapse. Kashmir should not even be an issue on the priority list for Pakistan. If your brethren stop their militancy, Kashmir will be a very peaceful place. India has many troops there because of two reasons – it is a border state and it has state sponsored insurgency and military support from Pakistan. The RISAT launched will begin to make it harder for the militants as the eye in the sky will alert our security system well in advance.

It is futile trying to take on India right now. I think you guys should focus on the problems inside your country and Indians only pay attention enough to make sure that its territory is not affected by what is going on inside Pakistan.

Thought I’d clarify that with you.

 

Umair,

The hard reality of the world is that your sovereignty only matters insofar as what you do in your country does not impact what happens in mine. There’s an old saying that, ‘there will always be a navy in your waters. Yours or someone elses.’ The PA decided to leave these areas undefended and now the militants have taken over. It’s perfectly understandable how it happened. If Pakistan has virtually ungoverned areas where extremists can train from around the world then it’s obvious that Pakistan is doing a poor job of defending it’s sovereignty. Your government and military has followed the path of appeasement and given up Pakistan’s sovereignty to militants. And that’s why the world (not just the west) is concerned.

I fully agree that the Pakistani people do not deserve this. And I understand quite well that they do not support this trend and did not vote for it. However, we are where we are. In the last few days we’ve seen the trajectory of the Taliban. Al Qaeda’s potential sanctuary has nearly quadrupled inside out of the FATA. For the sake of Pakistan’s own people, and those of us who might face the consequences of Pakistani nuclear weapons if they fall into the wrong hands, your government and security services has to act.

And the truth of the matter is that it won’t take much. 500 militants in Buner. That’s not even a battalion’s worth. And you have entire Corps within a day’s drive nearby. I just can’t understand what Kayani is waiting for. Does he need militants to start waving through his bedroom window in Rawalpindi before he considers them a real threat?

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Umair writes: “India is playing it very wise, we hyave to admit. It is making the right choice by going for technological upgrades needed to tackle the challenges. Also, India knows this will give an edge over Pakistan and advantage is with India. Between the countries, both of them consider themself vulnerable against each other. For now India is one “UP” with advantage.”

No. We are upgrading to keep ahead of Burma. Sorry, but Pakistan is not being considered for competition with us. We are desperate to stay ahead of Burma in every front. Indians feel really insulted when they are compared with Pakistan. Thought I’d let you know.

 

Umair writes: “During recent elections the people of Pakistan overwhelmingly elected moderate parties to power. Even the conservative religious parties like Jamat-e-Islami didnt do better than previous elections. The people of Pakistan do not support Taliban and Taliban do not enjoy any local support.”

Jinnah and his cronies faced the same situation. There was absolutely no support for a separate nation for Muslims from most Muslims in the sub-continent. So they used the same method that the Taliban is using today – violence. They called it “Direct action.” So nothing really has changed. It only takes a few gun toting criminals to drive the general population like ducks in any direction they want. Support is one thing, power is another. People may not like something, but they will reluctantly submit to power. Even during the British days, most people in the sub-continent did not participate in the freedom movement. They just left it to a few people who organized protests, movements and so on. When independence came, they just went with it as well. No one wants to put effort. So mass public support is not something people with militant minds are looking for. They will take power if they can do it.

“Despite this, I still feel it is for only Pakistan to decide what is best in antional interest.”

Agreed and best wishes for that.

 

India is playing it very wise, we hyave to admit. It is making the right choice by going for technological upgrades needed to tackle the challenges. Also, India knows this will give an edge over Pakistan and advantage is with India. Between the countries, both of them consider themself vulnerable against each other. For now India is one “UP” with advantage.

- Posted by Umair

There’s no doubt that the satellite will aid in India’s ‘War on Terror’ However, you don’t build billion dollar space programs to take on guys with AKs. Much of India’s defence modernization is aimed at China. If you don’t believe me, look at the proportions going into the Indian Navy and Air Force as opposed to the Army. That’s because India is worried about Chinese intrusions into the Indian Ocean and the development that’s on going in western China. I (and nearly all of my western counterparts) agree with the Indian posters here that India is focused on China not Pakistan.

Aside from that, as India rises economically, it’s going to have a bigger and better armed forces. Just like China. The challenge for Pakistanis is to understand that point and its implications. The conventional parity today is enormous. Even most Pakistani officers agree that Pakistan would loose any conventional war with India. If Pakistan wants to maintain conventional parity then it’s going to have step up economically.

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Keith
The question of Pakistan’s soverignity:

Spec ops raids into Pakistan halted – Army News
US ARMY TIMES SEPT, 2008

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2008/09/Ar my_border_ops_092608w/ – 38k –
You know very well about the Angoor Adda raid by US special forces in Sept last year, what was the fall out? Pakistan Army was ordered to open fire on intruding forces on the western border. Pakistan did fire on NATO choppers, also on one occassion on US forces. That was a dangerous escalation, flares were fired to warn NATO choppers that mistakenly strayed into Pakistani air space. Pakistan threatened to sever the logistical supply line of NATO and also at one point breifly closed it. US had underestimated the vehemence of Pakistani response, but it wisely called off any further planned ground ops.

Pakistan in the past did assert its soverignity, against external forces as well as the millitants. Ofcourse, Pakistan has from time to time undertaken various military offensive to clear areas from the Taliban too. We need resources to fight, we need ammo. Insurgencies are not cheap to fight and US knows this. If US has not been able to stabilize Afghanistan from last 8 years, atleast give us reasonable amount of time to deal with it.
I understand the sense of urgency on part of Obama administration, Pakistan is as much a foreign policy challenge for US as the US is for Pakistan. Both countries need to work together and Mr. Holbrooke stated recently that Pakistani American interests run in parallel. There is greater understanding in the US, the President is hosting Both Mr. Zardari and Mr. Karzai in May i guess in Washington for further discussion. No one needs to make efforts to get the Pakistani security forces moving, we will act decisively when it matters. We are not sitting idle now either.

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Mauryan
India is holding on to petty behavior, the world keeps talking about INADIA AND PAKISTAN, INDIAN AND PAKISTAN RIVALRY, why? the question is not that Indians feel ashamed of being compared to Pakistan. The question is Pakistanis feel screw India if the make atom bomb, we will build two. If India gets MiG 29s I want F-16s, If Indian has MBT(Main Battle Tanks) so do we, never mind India test fired a 1500KM range nuclear capable ballistic missile, we will respond with 1501 KM one. Pakistan test fired 6 nuclear on 28 May why? To level the score in response to the 5 tested by India 17 days back and the one tested back in 1974(smiling bhudda). The score was settled in one day and on 30th May Pakistan test fired another one.
So I thought I’d clarify while India keeps competing with China, for Pakistan, India is the benchmark. So dont feel ashamed, as long as we remain rivals, we will keep playing catch up with you and the world will keep comparing you with Pakistan since we match and sometimes exceed you in capability.

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No plan to establish state within state: TNSM
THURSDAY GEO NEWS

SWAT: Tehrik Nifaz Shariat-e-Muhammadi (TNSM) spokesman Amir Izzat Khan has said that the Constitution of Pakistan is very much Islamic but steps are not being taken strictly according to its provisions.

“TNSM has no intention to set up a state within state…. on the contrary, we want to give Pakistan’s Ideology a practical shape,” Izzat Khan said while talking to media after the holding of talks between NWFP government and TNSM leaders on the situation emerged in the wake of implementation of Nizam-e-adl Regulation in Malakand Division.

TNSM spokesman said: “We want to keep the Swat peace deal intact at all cost.” However, he said the deadline given for establishment of Qazi courts and also Dar-ul-Qaza has not been withdrawn.

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Umair, just when it was beginning to look like, you are getting out of your mode of delusion & denial, it seems, you’ve taken a complete U-turn and are back to your Indo-centric line of thinking & your hallucinogenic ways. As much as, you’d like to see Pakistan compared to India & want the world to see the two, as rivals, the truth is that nobody sees it that way except, Pakistan. Over the last decade, India has risen tremendously in the world order & unfortunately, Pakistan has gone backwards. India’s rivalry & competition on the global stage, be it defense or economy, is China. Pakistan is not a rival for India in any field. It’s just a menace next door.

Keith, I agree that India is the most, at danger, with the current situation in Pakistan but I would say that the rest of the world, including the US, is also very much in danger. It might be dismissed as a conspiracy theory but many believe that Pakistan & the ISI had an implicit involvement with 9/11 & the Bush administration simply covered it up, so that we can invade Iraq. Check out this video:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1d6m4_ 911-the-pakistan-connection_news

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Mortal
No one is denying the facts, I have stated time and again India deserves its rightful place in the global arena. We would not like to get in their way. For us, if we can simply preserve our soverignity and freedom, be economically stable abd have a strong defense and independent foreign policy, it would more than suffice. Can you see the respect Turkey enjoys? It has good relations with NATO and EU, even Israel. It is aspiring to join the EU. It has most of the time played mediation role in the Middle East conflict because Turkey is impartial and secular, it is trusted by all parties.
That is the role model Pakistan aspires to be in the Muslim world. The problem arises when a minority in India shows a hostile attitude towards Pakistan. Lets hope for lasting peace between the two countries. So, Pakistan always engaged in an arms race with India because it felt vulnerable against India. India too, has shown a stubborn attitude because of lack of trust and vulnerability it feels against Pakistan.
You reduce Pakistan as a menace next door, that is the problem. The moment you recognize Pakistan as your neighbour things will change for better.

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Govt to revisit Swat accord if peace not restored: PM
http://www.geo.tv/4-23-2009/40511.htm

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Panicking about Pakistan

April 23, 2009 1:35pm FINANCIAL TIMES UK
http://blogs.ft.com/rachmanblog/2009/04/ panicking-about-pakistan/#more-664

In late 2004, when it was already clear that the Iraq war was going badly wrong, I got talking to a European official who had just visited the White House, and held meetings with Condi Rice and Dick Cheney. “Were they panicking?”, I asked. “These are not people who panic,” he replied gravely.

I wouldn’t have put Hillary Clinton down as a panicker, either. But her Congressional testimony on Pakistan yesterday sounded distinctly alarmed. Pakistan, she said, now faces an “existential threat” from Islamist militancy and the Pakistani government has “basically abdicated to the Taliban and the extremists.” This was positively cheery compared to the committee chairman, Howard Berman, who claimed that “Pakistan could collapse in as little as six months.” I was planning my next visit to the country for October, so it sounds like I’ll be just in time.

But is all this alarm really justified? Jason Burke of The Observer once pointed out to me that people have been predicting the imminent demise of Pakistan for years – but it hasn’t happened yet. I used to take some comfort from the fact that the hardline Islamist parties generally do pretty badly in the elections.

However, the militant takeover of the Swat valley did not rely on votes or popularity – it was based on violence and intimidation. And while the original deal was “just” that sharia law would be imposed, it now appears that the Pakistani Taliban have essentially taken over the administration of the area. This has two additional malign consequences. First, it provides a new safe haven for the armed militants who used to have to shelter in the tribal and border areas. And since Swat is part of Pakistan proper – and not regarded as remote, bandit country, it is much harder to take military action against them in these new areas. Second, it now looks like the Pakistani Taliban are intent on using Swat as a new base, from which to expand their zone of control.

Unfortunately stern words from Hillary Clinton seem unlikely to persuade the Pakistani government to reverse course and abandon the appeasement of the local Taliban. If President Zardari cannot be persuaded by the assassination of his own wife, the destruction of the Marriott in Islamabad and the terrorist attacks in Lahore that caused the abandonment of the Sri Lankan cricket tour – it is difficult to believe that shouting from Washington is going to change his mind. The Americans have leverage in the form of the huge amounts of aid that they shovel towards Pakistan every year. But the Obama administration’s new policy was greatly to increase aid, in the hope of bolstering the Pakistani economy. It would be quite a reversal suddenly to start cutting aid, in the hope of exerting some pressure on the Pakistani government.

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Umair, Turkey would be a good role model for Pakistan & I sincerely hope that your guys can achieve or exceed that kind of status on the global stage.

Forget about the right wing minority in India. Such lunatics exist in every country, including the US. I can tell you that a majority of Indians have always wanted good relations with Pakistan. If you remember, India-Pakistan relations were doing good before the Mumbai attacks. Indians had opened their hearts for Pakistani cricketers, musicians, actors etc. but as I said before (& I think, Mauryan did as well), the Mumbai attack was a big jolt for Indians & we felt betrayed & violated. we felt like, no matter how much good-will we show towards Pakistanis, we’ll always be paid back with terror attacks on our citizens.

Anyways, I also hope that you can overcome the current wave of extremism in your country & defeat the Taliban. And after that, you can become a moderate, tolerant & progressive Islamic country like Turkey.

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive
 

Fear mongering and panicking about Pakistan? while life goes on as normal inside pakistan. Lets tone down the rhetoric and playdown the threat, I think the problem is confined and controllable.

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“So I thought I’d clarify while India keeps competing with China, for Pakistan, India is the benchmark.”
–Umair

–Umair: Keep all factors in place, including $$$$$.
“for Pakistan, $$$$$$ is the hurdle and Pakistan is told by the donors where not to put money”

@on the statement/Saxena Article that Taliban are not aging global Jihad: Taliban hosts those who wage global Jihad–Afghanistan remember and now Mullah says “brother Osama” is most welcome here. I call this part of the terroism problem.”

@Umair: Is there a way that Pakistanis, examplified by you, quit this Kashmir issue? you do not have to stick with Jinnah’s “jugular” idea of 1947. Times have changed plus he dreamed much more than Kashmir issue–achiving those dreams is in direct conflict with K-issue.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

Someone left an interesting comment on Financial Times Blog I wanted to quote:

———————————————————
Re: a rogue Pak nuke in London

Oh please! Stop fear mongering. There are some very smart Pakistani engineering students at Imperial but the suicide bomber-type are probably more “sports studies” (flunked) types from Bradford.

I would say London is safe. We have more to fear from suicide investment bankers peddling toxic security-bombs to the banks (did you see how much Darling is going to have to borrow?) than suicide engineers peddling nuclear. And the with the demise of structured securities the engineers will probably go on the producing something useful for export.

So, there’s hope!
—————

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Here is another one from a reader in Belgium:
———————————————————
Pakistan is so precariously poised. Aid given to Pakistan has to be monitored very carefully. Hillary Clinton is extremely astute and knows the pit-falls of placing too much faith on the Pakistani government. President Zardari is in a very difficult situation and needs to walk a very fine line. One wrong step and he could be out of power. So his is a deft balancing act to stay in power and contain the rising tide of terrorism and prevent the Taleban from gaining a stronger foot-hold in the country.In addition he has many enemies who would like to unseat him. Pakistan is going through a tumultuous time, a period of confusion and violence which the Taleban is trying to exploit. The Taleban control part s of Pakistan especially in the Swat Valley region where they have implemented strict Sharia Law. So one has to sympathize with President Zardari as he tries to take Pakistan down the path of democracy. But is the time ripe for such measures as the political stability of the country is in such deep doubt? Only time will tell!
—————————————

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Umair writes: “Pakistan in the past did assert its soverignity, against external forces as well as the millitants.”

Can you give some examples? Pakistan lost its Eastern half in 1971. It crushed internal rebellion for independence in 1972 in Sindh and Blochistan. But that was not an external aggression. Militants? I thought it was an export commodity from Pakistan. Which militants come into Pakistan? Just want some answers, I am not trying to pick on you.

“Ofcourse, Pakistan has from time to time undertaken various military offensive to clear areas from the Taliban too. We need resources to fight, we need ammo. Insurgencies are not cheap to fight and US knows this.”

Simple. Take all the ammo and resources that you have kept in Kashmir and turn them around in Swat. Tell them that they will get Kashmir and all the women and boys there, if they can take out the Taliban. You got both you wanted – Fighting insurgency with insurgents and ammo/logistics/resources. Pakistani military can return to safety and play snooker. Just a friendly suggestion.

 

Umair writes: “So dont feel ashamed, as long as we remain rivals, we will keep playing catch up with you and the world will keep comparing you with Pakistan since we match and sometimes exceed you in capability.”

Still we feel ashamed. And tell your military bosses not to list all their inventory for all to see. This is all you’ve got? Ch.. ch.. ch.. How about swords, horses, machetes, knifes, swiss knives, butter knives, plates, forks, pencils, staplers, sticks, stones, pebbles, sling shots, paper planes, toy tanks? Cricket bats? I am not trying to pick on you again. We don’t want to know all your secrets about entire inventory. It seems pretty empty :-)

Ok. For a small nation, I guess that is adequate.

 

Umair, if you’re interested in global comments about Pakistan, here’s a whole bunch of them from today’s Times (NY):

http://community.nytimes.com/article/com ments/2009/04/24/world/asia/24pstan.html

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive
 

Umair writes: “You reduce Pakistan as a menace next door, that is the problem. The moment you recognize Pakistan as your neighbour things will change for better.”

We do try to recognize Pakistan as a neighbor. But then we see events like Mumbai attacks. We see cross border terrorism in the guise of freedom struggle. When that is the case, wouldn’t anyone call your country a menace next door? Or should we just ignore it and go on about our lives? Your generals are blaming India or external forces even if they get constipation now-a-days. Weren’t you the one who claimed that India has 7 embassies in Afghanistan and never gave the information when I asked for it? So what you are saying is that you and your country will do whatever it wants from spread mis-information about our country and encourage terrorism inside India, and we should treat you as a trustworthy neighbor. Great! Even Afghanistan is complaining about your country and its irresponsible acts that are not allowing them to build their nation. So may be you should look at your country for a change instead looking outside of it all the time.

 

After playing ‘carrot’ with Pakistan, for a while, the US has decided to finally start playing some ‘stick’.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/80 15604.stm

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive
 

Mauryan
If you google Pakistan and weapons of mass destruction, Pakistan missile capability, you will find pretty dangerous toys we keep. It will take very little for us to bring down ‘mighty global super power’ of the future (India) NOW. Though that kind of destructive behavior is not something anyone is suggesting.

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‘Taliban pushing towards Pakistani Capital’

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30361451?GT1 =43001

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Umair quotes: “There are some very smart Pakistani engineering students at Imperial but the suicide bomber-type are probably more “sports studies” (flunked) types from Bradford.”

Read about Omar Sheikh, linked with Daniel Pearl’s murder. He was a student at London school of economics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Omar_ Saeed_Sheikh

 

Umair quotes about someone from Belgium: “Pakistan is so precariously poised. Aid given to Pakistan has to be monitored very carefully. Hillary Clinton is extremely astute and knows the pit-falls of placing too much faith on the Pakistani government. President Zardari is in a very difficult situation and needs to walk a very fine line. One wrong step and he could be out of power. So his is a deft balancing act to stay in power and contain the rising tide of terrorism and prevent the Taleban from gaining a stronger foot-hold in the country.In addition he has many enemies who would like to unseat him. Pakistan is going through a tumultuous time, a period of confusion and violence which the Taleban is trying to exploit. The Taleban control part s of Pakistan especially in the Swat Valley region where they have implemented strict Sharia Law. So one has to sympathize with President Zardari as he tries to take Pakistan down the path of democracy. But is the time ripe for such measures as the political stability of the country is in such deep doubt? Only time will tell!”

Replace the name Zardari with Musharraf, then by Zia Ul Haq and then by another ruler before that and read it again. It will read the same. What came out of this ignorant analysis is that the cold war powers dumped money and arsenal into Pakistan for decades. The end result never went the way they expected. Pakistan squandered away all the money and equipment in its single goal of matching up with India and fighting it. And the western powers are still remaining ignorant.

 

20 year old Omar Shiekh son of a Lahore origin British Pakistani merchant, volunteered for a humanitarian organization on a trip to Bosnia to help suffering muslims at the hands of Serbs who perpetrated genocide while the champions of human rights and democracy. Bosnian war, remember? Serbrenica massacre? Gen. Ratko Mladic and Rdovan Karadic, now in the international criminal court in the Hague for war crimes. Many Omar Sheikhs would have not been radicalized had the NATO stopped the war criminals of Serbia.

It was enough to turn a smart London School of economist student into a radical.

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Fearmongers panick about Pakistan, Islamabad is going business as usual. No one needs to interefere in the internal matters of a soverign state.

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Umair claims: “If you google Pakistan and weapons of mass destruction, Pakistan missile capability, you will find pretty dangerous toys we keep. It will take very little for us to bring down ‘mighty global super power’ of the future (India) NOW. Though that kind of destructive behavior is not something anyone is suggesting.”

Good. Keep them. But it is very clear to me that what you are claiming here has been Pakistan’s goal all along – bring down India. For the past 62 years, this has been the aim of everyone in power in Pakistan – “Ladke Hindustan lenge hum!” slogan is famous.

But WMDs should not used as threatening words every time. We know our strength and we don’t advertise it. Your bragging of WMDs might prove counter productive soon. The US and Israel are not going to sit there and slice cheese. They are going to come after your nukes. They know that Islamic radicalism and WMDs make the deadliest combination. More than India, Israel might be working out a plan to dis-arm your country from WMDs. The US executes Israel’s wishes. It did in Iraq. And there there was only a rumor about WMDs. In Pakistan, WMDs are real and perceived as a global threat – leaking nuke secrets to rogue nations, Al Qaeda and Taliban’s expansion. So frame them in your home. Your country is going to be freed of nukes soon. This is not because everyone is against Pakistan. It is just that Pakistan itself is on the verge of collapse and might lose its control over the nukes. More than the Taliban, Washington is worried about the WMDs now. Do not think they trust Pakistanis this time. Those days are over.

 

Mauryan
First there is no crusade in Pakistan against India, no one is suggesting that. Second, both Israel and Pakistan are officially US allies, so dont worry about them going after Pakisatn. Every country has its interests, just because Indo-Pak relations are not good, Israel or US will not simply attack Pakistan. So come out of that dellusion.
Lastly, i will restate that we have nothing against India. we have our own aspirations. We would rather be like Turkey. Modern Islamic country, respected and possessing an independent foreign policy.
As for WMDs, they are only a ‘minimum credible detterent’ against any external agression. If there is denuclearization as per CTBT and NPT than Pakistan would give up WMDs along with India.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Umair writes: “Many Omar Sheikhs would have not been radicalized had the NATO stopped the war criminals of Serbia. ”

Let me quote from Ahmed Rashid’s book titled “Descent into chaos”:

“On June 9, 2004, in the midst of karachi’s morning rush hour, the convoy of the city’s corps commander, Lt Gen Ahsan Saleem Hayat, was ambushed. Gunmen raked the vehicles with machine gun fire and exploded grenades. The general escaped, but his driver, seven soldiers and three policemen were killed.

The terrorists belonged to a new group, called Jundullah, or the “Army of God,” made up of educated middle class professionals, including doctors and lawyers, who trained in south Waziristan with Al Qaeda. Jundullah’s leader, Attaur Rehman, had a master’s degree in statistics from Karachi University….”

And so on. Umair, it is not the illiterate and the drop outs that are populating the militant groups. Those days are old. Come to the real world. It is getting ugly. Educated cadres are a lot smarter, can plan well and can easily be trained. Looks like Al Qaeda is pulling in educated class into its cadres. I don’t think you know the depth of what you are standing in the middle of.

Suffering of others should not turn one into a criminal. That is the wrong message given by the religion. Suffering should make a spiritual person forgive others and work hard to prevent atrocities that they have witnessed. Your response is a justification for the actions of Omar Sheikh. This tells me that you too can easily be converted into a radical militant by a very manipulative person in a very short time. There are plenty like them in today’s Pakistan and there are many like you who are on the edge.

 

Mauryan
I am not vulnerable teenager you are thinking of. I have morals, I have education, I have a career and a way of thinking. Why would I submit to someone else, for me my parents gave me the guideline, I was taught in schools by my teachers, I am a muslim and knows what Islam truly stands for. I know how to face the world and its challenges. I may not be perfect, no human being is.

However, the educated ranks joining in the Jihadis know whats going on in the world. Al Qaida doesnt have to recruit them by much effort. That is where I feel there is a need for ‘dialogue of civilizations’ an initiative taken by King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia. A dialogue with the Muslim world. Do you know how sensitive the Palestine and Kashmir issues are?

And tell you an amazing thing, Abdul Qadeer Khan was just another physics student in Europe. He witnessed Pakistan dismembered in 1971 and told himself, boy this is humiliaitng. Let me do something for my country. He was a nationalistic I would say.
Somewhere some doctor or engineer or pilot would see a news item of an Israeli air raid on Gaza and dead bodies of children and would call it a day in his profesion and join the ‘Jihadis’. This is what I mean by stating lets get to the root causes of problems and tackle them.

And also I mentioned about Omar Shiekh being just 20 when he went to Bosnia.

Now here is something more for you, just google OMAR KHADR,a Canadian citizen and read his life story and who is he and then let your views known.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

India had always supported the Arab cause. The Islamic terrorism emanating from Pakistan only had made India turn to Israel.
US and Pak are friends. Us and Israel are best friends. But Israel and Pak are foes?????. Some damn logic here!! Alright US and Iran are bitter enemies. India and US go well-they signed a nuclear deal. India wants gas from Iran and Iran wants to give it. Finally India launches a spy satellite on Iran for the sake of Israel. Still India and Iran are friends. Still India wants gas and Iran wants to give gas. ‘Aaargh’ Who is responsible for all these conflicting relations? US or Islamic terrorism?

Posted by mitchell | Report as abusive
 

Umair – “And tell you an amazing thing, Abdul Qadeer Khan was just another physics student in Europe. He witnessed Pakistan dismembered in 1971 and told himself, boy this is humiliaitng. Let me do something for my country.”

So, AQ Khan witnesses the dismemberment of Pakistan in 1971 & decided that he wanted to make nukes, in order to take revenge on India? That’s neat!

Was he dumb or oblivious to the fact that Bangladesh was created because of Pakistan’s own shortcomings?
Did he not know about the genocide of 3 million bengalis, committed by the Pakistani army?
Was he unaware of the fact that in spite of winning enough seats, to form a Government in the center, Sheikh Mujibur Rahman’s Awami league, wasn’t allowed to do so, by Bhutto & the army?

No sir, in typical Pakistani fashion, Mr. AQ Khan proceeded to blame the creation of Bangladesh on India & swore revenge on it. What a Nationalist, indeed!

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive
 

Umair,

First off I don\’t believe that solving Kashmir would solve anything. Imagine that you woke up tomorrow and Srinagar was in Pakistan. Would Pakistan say, \’That\’s it. We are happy,\” and start drawing down their defence spending and focus on development? Nothing, I have seen would suggest that. This is the problem with the defence industrial complex that has taken over Pakistan. It needs a threat to justify it\’s existence. What would those Generals do without India?

Second, I don\’t buy that India is expansionist. The proof is in the Simla agreement. If the Indians were expansionists, not only would they have kept the net territorial gains they made in West Pakistan (and in Kashmir in particular) but they could have also forced the new state of Bangladesh to hand over a few choice morsels too. They didn\’t. Regardless of the emotions of Pakistanis, this example should at least count for some evidence that the Indians can bargain honestly and fairly.

But since Kashmir is an important issue let\’s look at it. Every Pakistani I meet will always say that we have to solve Kashmir. Fair enough. The question is how do you do it? A plebiscite today is absolutely useless. Both areas have seen their demographics change so much that it\’s hard to see a plebiscite fulfilling the original intention of the UN resolution. And what would happen if Ladakh or Jammu vote to stay in India? Would Pakistan be happy getting the Valley back and nothing else?

Next is territorial exchange. India is not going to hand over their bit of Kashmir and it\’s useless to expect them to. Would Pakistan hand over territory to Afghanistan? They don\’t accept the Durand line. And the Afghans will often say that this is a problem that needs to be solved. So should the world expect Pakistan to hand over the FATA and parts of NWFP to solve the \’Durand problem\’? Of course not. The same then applies to both parties of the Kashmir dispute.

The only real solution is to sign a peace agreement and implement a soft border. This way crossing over for Kashmiris would be no different than crossing the Canada-US border or crossing the border across Lorraine (a territory once disputed as much as Kashmir) between Germany and France. But to accomplish that both sides will have to give up their territorial ambitions on all of Kashmir. It will take a huge leap of faith to accept that the Indians are trying to break up Pakistan. Conversely, the Indians will have to trust that Pakistan is not going to foment trouble in India anymore. I don\’t know how these two countries will get there but I don\’t see any other option.

One last point on this issue. Before you make your counter-argument I want you to put yourself in the shoes of the Indians. Likewise of course, I would recommend that Indians ponder the Pakistani position and the importance of Kashmir to the Pakistani national self-image. At the end of the day though, there really is only one solution…the one I pointed out. We can implement it now or a century from now after thousands more have died as a result of continued animosity between India and Pakistan.

Posted by Keith | Report as abusive
 

Now here is something more for you, just google OMAR KHADR,a Canadian citizen and read his life story and who is he and then let your views known.
- Posted by Umair

As a Canadian I will tell you that he’s not worth much in this country. Our newspapers and media refer to the Khadrs are the Al Qaeda family (actually that’s what one of the Khadr brothers nicknamed the family in the interview).

Although I’d like to see Omar repatriated, there is not much sympathy for him. He’d better stay out of sight if they ever bring him back to Canada.

To most Canadians the Khadr family are traitors. The parents pulled their kids out of good public schools in Canada and took them to Al Qaeda camps in Pakistan. The father got killed by Pak forces. The sons were forced to fight. And Omar allegedly killed a US medic (which by the way could be considered a violation of the laws of armed conflict). To most Canadians, that medic could have easily been a Canadian so it’s hard for Canadians to feel sorry for Omar….Indeed, his own mother showed no remorse, going on national tv and saying that Canada was a terrible country and that Canadians were terrible, immoral people (and she wonders why the government isn’t rushing to help Omar). She stated that she dreamed of her sons being jihadist. Well it came true.

And by the way a previous Prime Minister already bailed out the family once…..

Anyway, Omar is a poor example of radicalization. His parents forced him to fight.

Posted by Keith | Report as abusive
 

Umair – “And tell you an amazing thing, Abdul Qadeer Khan was just another physics student in Europe. He witnessed Pakistan dismembered in 1971 and told himself, boy this is humiliaitng. Let me do something for my country.”

Pakistanis should be a little more reserved in their pride for AQ Khan. He is loathed by the West. For a country that calls itself an ally of the US to go around proliferating nuclear secrets to virtually every US enemy is not something Pakistani should feel proud about. And they especially should not feel pride in the guy who facilitated all that trading (with the military’s consent of course).

Aside from that, recent evidence shows that Khan was a terrible scientist. At best he was a good project manager who put the whole shabang togehter. But as far as being a physicist, there’s probably a few Pakistanis who are not getting the attention they deserve right now.

Anyway, life’s probably poor for Khan. He’ll never leave Pakistan ever again. If he leaves, you can bet that he’ll find himself in an interrogation in room in Langley in no time.

Posted by Keith | Report as abusive
 

Umair says:

“However, the educated ranks joining in the Jihadis know whats going on in the world. Al Qaida doesnt have to recruit them by much effort. That is where I feel there is a need for ‘dialogue of civilizations’ an initiative taken by King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia. A dialogue with the Muslim world. Do you know how sensitive the Palestine and Kashmir issues are?”

Umair, with all due respect, FxxK you. Please don’t forget that almost 30-100 millions of Hindus were genocided when the Arab invaders occupied India. Kashmir is nothing my Paki friend. You are living on ancestral Hindu land. With you Paki’s it is always a one-sided highway and you preach victimhood as always, what about the lives of non-muslims? Are they not worth anything because the Koran tells you they are not?

With all due respect, again Fxxk you. If my life is not worth anything as a non-muslim, yours is equally worthless. So shut the hxll up about Kashmir, you have no basis discussing it, until you Paki’s apologize and formally acknowledge and make amends for genociding 2.5 million hindus, that is why you will never get a stage for Kashmir discussion, because you Paki’s lack compassion towards Hindus.

Why does the muslim world not give a rats axs about 2.5 million dead hindus? Muslims have a double standard when it comes to human rights, they don’t feel a non-muslims’s life is worth anything, you know in India we have a saying called Karma, do you understand the concept of what that means in a global context?

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive
 

Suffering of others should not turn one into a criminal. @That is the wrong message given by the religion. Suffering should make a spiritual person forgive others and work hard to prevent atrocities that they have witnessed. Your response is a justification for the actions of Omar Sheikh. This tells me that you too can easily be converted into a radical militant by a very manipulative person in a very short time. There are plenty like them in today’s Pakistan and there are many like you who are on the edge.
- Posted by Mauryan

–Such radical militants in many other posts from Pakistanis have been mentioned as “not-true muslims” since Islam teaches peace.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

Umair wrote “And tell you an amazing thing, Abdul Qadeer Khan was just another physics student in Europe. He witnessed Pakistan dismembered in 1971 and told himself, boy this is humiliaitng. Let me do something for my country.”

You are again conflicting yourself, You had said a million times that Bangladesh was a result of Mukti bahini and NOT Indian Army.

Are you trying to say AQ is surely a clown who made the bomb to confront wrong party.

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive
 

Kieth
“Anyway, Omar is a poor example of radicalization. His parents forced him to fight.”

First of all its great to learn you are from ‘Great White North’ Canada. Look, Stephen Harper should take his stand on this. The neo-cons down south have already lost power due to failed policies. All Canadians are equal, Canada is known for its good things. Omar Khadr and Maher Arar cases damaged Canada’s reputation. Omar Khadr was forced by his parents, but what was his own fault. Why should Canada discriminate against any of its citizens? Omar has still not stood trial, no proper charges have been brought up against him, he has not been proven guilty and remians a suspect only. The compund he was in was bombed by USAF F-15 Eagles, even it is not known if the medic was killed by Omar’s grenade since someone testified that Omar was holding a grenade in his hand. Omar lost his eye as well in that battle. Omar is still young, he can come back to Canada, face trial, be acquitted , rehabilitated and stands a chance to contribute to Canada and live a normal life. Please support him out of Gitmo.

Wish you sunny days!

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Keith
Atleast on Kashmir, I agree with you. I think even Musharraf tried some things, Pakistan had improved relations with India during his later part of government, Musharraf tried the back channel talks with India , he also tried to approach Israel in some limited manner. the solution to Kashmir you suggested seems workable.
On Defense industrial complex in PK, dont you think same was the problem with neo-cons and Northrop Grumman Lockheed Martin Guys in the US when they invaded Iraq?
And regarding borders, I tell you what this will backfire in Kashmir. Due to the prevailing environemnt, it will be inviting infiltration across the two parts of Kashmir, tighter border control is necesary. Even with the implementation of WHTI(Wsetern Hemisphere Travel Initiative) it will become relatively more formal to cross the US-Canadian border back and forth.

And regarding A.Q Khan, he is hailed in Pakistan as a hero. You dont know but unlike you in the west we people here in India and Pakistan have a self esteem problem, We would go for nukes for the prestige. Thats what happened, Khan was infact a very smart guy. He worked in Urenco(company) in Netherlands and had access to classified centrifuge designs etc. People who knew him at that time later revealed it.
Also, you cannot blame Pakistan for nuclear proliferation. Pakistan might have traded nuclear centrifuges design with North Korea in exchange for missile technology, under the Government of western educated Benazir Bhutto.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Kieth
If you have any loved one,friends serving in Afghanistan, i wish them best and hope there are no more sad scenes across the Highway of Heroes. Many Canadian soldiers have laid down their lives in Afghanistan, just like many Pakistan Army soldiers were martyred our side of border. My own dad served in Pakistan Air Force.
Anyways, how are things in Canada after few months back when the Governor General had prorogue the parliament session? The liberals were going after the cons like crazy, but Steve was smart enough to evade the no confidence motion. I am now out of touch with things in Canada since things in Pakistan have kept me occupied with local developments.

Further, I want to say there is much scare mongering about Pakistan. But we are in control and it will come right. Pakistan is an ally, we have gone through crisis before and we should be able to make it through this time also.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Keith,

I read your comments and it was refreshing to read some of your views.

On Kashmir, India was ready to agree on any solution that does not alter the current border – the Line of Control. The plan was to make the border between India & Pak soft and over time make it irrelevant. It may eventually open doors to autonomy in Kashmir, if not complete independance.

In a recent article in the NY magazine, Steve Coll confirmed that India & Pak met on 12 occassions for back-channel talks on Kashmir. In 2007, both were very close on reaching an agreement on the broader disputes in the Kashmir region. Plans were drawn on Manmohan Singh travelling to Pakistan and signing the peace agreement. However, Musharraf wanted more time because he was not sure how to sell the aggreement to Paksitanis. Soon after, Musharraf got engulfed in political crisis and lost his office. Now, the political uncertainty in Pakistan and the Mumbai attacks have stalled the talks.

Posted by Nikhil | Report as abusive
 

Umair,

As you can imagine, the Omar Khadr case is complex. In fact, you are a bit off base here. Both the Omar Khadr and Maher Arar cases happened when the Liberals were in power. All the Conservatives have done is merely follow policy in the Khadr case. And it was actually the Conservatives who pushed the Liberals to resolve the Maher Arar case.

Although, I support repatriation, it’s hard to feel sorry for Omar while we have people in Afghanistan. I just lost a friend there yesterday. I can accept the fact that Omar shouldn’t pay for the sins of his parents. So I support his repatriation on those grounds. But personally, I think his mother should be charged with child abuse and treason. What kind of nut job pulls their kid out of a nice school in a middle class neighbourhood in Canada and sends them to fight as jihadis in Afghanistan? Moreover, Khadr senior was already pulled out of a Pakistani prison once by a previous Liberal Prime Minister. He went back and ended up in a firefight with the Pak Army. As you can see, this family has a pattern and it’s not one that shows loyalty to Canada. That’s why there’s not much support for Omar Khadr even among liberals. But as far as the policy goes its actually consistent. The Canadian government normally only intervenes after the country’s judicial processes have run through. This is the same for example as the two boys who were accused of murder in Saudi. That has not happened yet for Omar in Gitmo. When it does, they’ll intervene. He’ll be brought home fairly soon. I am confident of that. But as far as having a normal life in Canada. That’ll never happen. I would recommend he change his name and never talk to his nut job mother and sister again.

Posted by Keith | Report as abusive
 

Umair.

Few points:

Defence-Industrial Complex. Yes, the United States has one. It’s not something to be applauded and it’s certainly not an excuse for Pakistan to have one. At least the States can afford theirs. In Pakistan, people are starving, schools and hospitals are crumbling, while the defence sector by some estimates is responsbile for 25-50% of all economic activity in your country. By no measure is the US even close in that regard. The US military does not run side businesses to fund their activities or provide cushy jobs for retirees.

Soft border. The WHTI might be a bit of a tightening but look at what we have in North America. Canada and the US have the longest undefended border in the world. In most places it’s a dirt road and a two wire fence that you could hop over. In fact most border crossing have no guards, just a phone to US and Canadian customs. You pick it up and tell them that you are crossing. Most of that is not going to change. A lot of these rules apply to major border crossings. And you will just have to keep the documentation on you when you cross. For years all you needed was a birth certificate (without a photo) for native born and a citizenship card for naturalized citizens to cross. To require a passport to go across is not that big a deal…it’s just a big deal to North Americans who can’t imagine roaming around Canada, US, Mexico with a passport. It’s a big change for people use to waving a driver’s license. Imagine if Kashmir had this. Even if it was just a passport. Rural Kashmir could have a simple marked undefended border with phones to Indian and Pak authorities. Border crossings could be like the EU or Canada/US where you either wave through a smart passport or an ID card. How much of an inconvenience would that be for the average Kashmiris if these policies were implemented correctly (smart ID, well staffed crossings, minimal delays, etc.)? At that point I think, few would have to worry about having the territory in their possession. There are so many areas in Europe that were under dispute once upon a time. The European Union has eliminated a lot of those concerns. There is no reason a smart border policy could not do the same for India and Pakistan…and down the road add all the other South Asian countries. Imagine Pakistanis working in Bombay. Or tamils working and living in Karachi. Or Bengalis being able to work in Islamabad, while Pashtuns take up jobs in Dhaka. That’s what you should be working towards….a comprehensive vision. There is no use quarrelling over a line in the dirt. You’ll spend centuries and thousands of lives and succeed at moving it only inches a year. Work towards making borders irrelevant instead. Forget WHTI. The goal for South Asia should be to end up like the EU.

Posted by Keith | Report as abusive
 

Umair writes: “You dont know but unlike you in the west we people here in India and Pakistan have a self esteem problem, We would go for nukes for the prestige. Thats what happened, Khan was infact a very smart guy.”

Please do not include India with Pakistan. Our nuclear ambitions were not driven by low self esteem. May be it applies to your countrymen. People with low self esteem constantly compare themselves with others and try to ape them even if they cannot afford to do so.

India’s leaders and scientists wanted India to become independent on many fronts. Indigenous technology development was a motto for a long time. In the 1950s and early 60s scientists like Homi Jehangir Baba tried convincing Nehru to join the nuclear club. NPT was not there at that time. Nehru wanted nuclear power only for peaceful means and wanted the Indian scientists to develop the technology by themselves. Many nuclear powers set up plants inside India with an agreement that the material generated will not be used for nuclear weapon development. However, in 1960s China mauled India after taking Nehru for a ride. And they had become a declared nuclear power by 1968. This is when India decided to protect itself and its borders by developing a credible deterrent. India pursued it against international protest and used the generated material to explode nuclear bombs in 1971. There was no such drive to eat grass and somehow make the bombs.

India also went on many other fronts – rocket development and satellite technology for space exploration, and remote sensing. This helped tremendously for its green revolution and weather forecasting. India also set up council for industrial research, national science labs, institutes of technology and so on to provide an all round development that will not only generate scientific and engineering talent, but also provide them with opportunities when they became ready. India has a station set up in Antarctica as well. Everything was not defense related. Atomic bombs happened from the stand point of protecting ourselves from China. Missile development also became necessary for deterrent. We were caught in the cold war geo politics. India wanted to be non-aligned as much as possible. But its situation forced it to align itself with the USSR, as China was courted by the US.

There is no self esteem issue as far as India is concerned. We did not try to match China item to item. I don’t want to say with low self esteem problems for Pakistanis. But kindly do not drag us with you guys. It insults years of concerted effort in all fronts to make India developed in an all round sense. These things takes time and I am glad Indian leaders put their efforts in laying such foundations. We really want to build a successful nation, not out of low self esteem, but out of our potential and capability. Indian scientists and engineers are highly respected and recognized in many countries. I don’t think I have to give you references for that. Some of our institutions of management and technology rank in the top 100 in the world. Please do not spread your ignorance.

 

Umair – “You dont know but unlike you in the west we people here in India and Pakistan have a self esteem problem”

Kindly talk for yourself & your fellow Pakistanis & not for India or Indians.

Umair – “Also, you cannot blame Pakistan for nuclear proliferation. Pakistan might have traded nuclear centrifuges design with North Korea in exchange for missile technology”

So, nuclear proliferation was ‘OK’, just because it was done in a trade-off? What kind of a twisted logic is that?

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive
 

Good to see that Kayani has woken up. Now hopefully, he’ll do something about the rest of the NWFP.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/80 15949.stm

Posted by Keith | Report as abusive
 

Umair quotes: “First there is no crusade in Pakistan against India, no one is suggesting that.”

History does not substantiate your statement. Pakistan’s eager involvement against the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan was done with the ulterior plan to use the resources later against India. Taliban was groomed and harnessed as a strategic depth against India. Militant training using foreigners in Afghanistan included plans against India in Kashmir. This crusade never ended. It started in 1947 and it is still there.

“Second, both Israel and Pakistan are officially US allies, so dont worry about them going after Pakisatn.”

You should not bank too much on the word “ally.” This changes according to times and priorities.

In WW II, Soviet Union was part of the allied forces against Nazi Germany.

In Vietnam, they were the enemy along with China against the US.

Iran was a strong US ally once.

US was an ally of Iraq in its war against Iran. When Saddam Hussein dropped chemical bombs on Kurdish people, Rumsfeld was in Baghdad, for business reasons.

Panama was a US ally once.

Pakistan is was an ally in the war against the Soviet Union and now in the war on terrorism.

But truth is coming out. Pakistan has been the source of global terrorism. This is not something your country planned. Your plans were to control and use terrorism as a means to getting even with India. But went out of control. Now Israel has come into the picture.

And Israel is a long time US ally. The US will go against any nation that threatens Israel. So Pakistan must be worried because if whatever that has originated inside Pakistan can become a threat to Israel, your country too can become a target. The US will mislead you and then emasculate your nation. Remember what happened to Saddam Hussein.

This is the reason why India has kept the US at arm’s length and not gone under its wings entirely. Being self reliant really helps in the long run and it has been India’s goal.

 

Keith writes: “Good to see that Kayani has woken up. Now hopefully, he’ll do something about the rest of the NWFP.”

Glad to see this development. But I do not know how these things will play out in the long run.

My guess is that Kayani’s representatives used the “India” word. The Taliban might have been told thus: “Look brother, if we fight each other in this crucial time, our enemy India gets to gain. They have manipulated the US to turn against us. We both have helped each other. Our common goal is to keep Afghanistan under our thumb and wrest Kashmir out of India’s hands. We need to buy time and help our brothers hide and wait it out. The US is beginning to struggle economically. If we manage to prolong the conflict by holding out, they will give up. Then look at what we get to gain! You got Swat. Just hold on to it. We will look the other way and you do whatever you want there. And we will provide you with weapons and supplies that you can use against the Americans. We need to play this game for our survival. Hang in there buddy”

And this would work like a charm. I hope this is not true. But my knowledge of history in this region makes me think this way. Common enemy psyche really works.

 

Umair writes: “Khan was infact a very smart guy.”

So is the thief who can break open any lock. And thieves are pretty sophisticated now-a-days. Will Khan be able to walk free if he left the shores of Pakistan? No. He will be arrested immediately to face charges in a number of countries for stealing technology and selling sensitive information. Scientists are honored abroad and welcomed. Your Khan does not have that kind of a reputation. So what does that tell you? He was a crook. And you guys call him a father of your nation, it only tells one thing.

 

Umair says to Keith:

“All Canadians are equal, Canada is known for its good things. Omar Khadr and Maher Arar cases damaged Canada’s reputation. Omar Khadr was forced by his parents, but what was his own fault. Why should Canada discriminate against any of its citizens?”

Umair, you backwards fool, Omar Khadr, is an adult now and still unrepentant for his previous ways, his mother, a Canadian citizen has berated Canada and said Canadians are rotten people, while she lives on welfare, paid by Canadian Taxpayers. Canada is not a safe haven for Islamic Terrorists, I think we should deport every Islamic Terrorist, or those associated with ourit, especially from the Mosques. Canada or any other western country don’t need terrorist scum in that beautiful, fair and secular democratic country. I don’t care what religion they are associated with. All western countries have to set forward a strict no tolerance policy towards those who dabble with Islamism and Radicalism, or any other forms of terrorism, whether they be Khalistani Sikhs or Hindu LTTE Tamil Tiger Sympathizers.

Be clear, that is not Islam, but Islamism. Islamism means those who would promote and advocate Islam through politically violent means. That is not discrimination my Paki friend, that is being responsible government towards the votership and maintaining safety and security for its citizens.

Umair you are a borderline Islamist with a one sided warped sense of entitlement for muslims first, it is quit clear and evident in all your talks. You only seek to promote and elevate Pakistan and don’t really care about getting to the root of issues and when you pretent to do so, you always warp the arguement in favor or Pakistani’s and you are therefore completely partial towards Pak Islamic Entitlement, all of your arguements.

You never care about the other religion or culture’s issues, or how much they have died or suffered, it is always how much muslims have suffered. Did you ever just think, that some muslims are reaping what they have sown? Everybody reaps what they sow, it does not matter what it is. This concept seems to evade your grey matter. India is successful because it has sown ideals to be such. United States was hated under Bush, because Bush has sown that. Pakistan is not liked today, because of what it has sown. Deal with it, quit making excuses and blaming others.

Just to let you know, nobody here really takes you seriously. Your education you are so proud of, lacks any sort of universal human fairness to it and is too slanted towards favoring muslims first. That is where you keep losing your arguement. For the record, I am for universal fairness for all peoples, regardless of their religion and have misgivings those countries who don’t preach that same, namely Pakistan.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive
 

Pakistani Taliban withdraws from key valley

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/i dUSTRE53N1EM20090424

It was unclear whether the withdrawal was in response to a carrot or a stick, and worries abound over whether Pakistan lacks the capacity and intent to fight militancy.

Army chief General Ashfaq Kayani issued a statement aimed at dispelling those doubts and calming a mounting sense of crisis.

The army “will not allow the militants to dictate terms to the government or impose their way of life on the civil society of Pakistan,” the statement quoted Kayani as saying.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

@Umair,

I feel bad being so hard on you. It is not your fault entirely, the way you see the world, you are from a Shame Based Society. This is one of the reasons why honour is so important, it is used to protect one from shame. Many Asian, Middle Eastern, and African countries are shame-based countries and that includes Pakistan.

http://www.doceo.co.uk/background/shame_ guilt.htm

Shame based societies will goto any length to protect themselves from Shame. It can range from not admitting fault to changing to topic, to violent outbursts to full out ignoring the facts and saying that the facts are false and all accusations are baseless. Case in point, Ajmal Kasab, so much shame came upon the Pakistani establishment, when the facts came out.

In a shame-based culture, to admit failure looks bad on the honor of your family… so everything is kept secret, not discussed or violence is used to prevent shame on one’s family or country. Hence female honor killings and this is also the root of why the Pakistani establishment is reluctant to admit any fault of the Taliban and rising extremism in Pakistan. Shame based killings are quite common in Pakistan, as you know. It is shame that you feel, that the Pak Army has genocided 3.0 million human beings, so you never even engage that arguement with me, you just flip it to the Kashmir issue and I have seen this to be so common when arguements take place with some Muslims, especially Pakistani’s. Never admitting fault or shifting blame is a part of your culture, due to its Shame-Honour roots.

The down side of shame based societies, is the license that it appears to give to engage in secret wrong-doing, case in point, the ISI and Pak Army proxy wars against India and destablization of Afghanistan.

At the end of the day, Shame-Honour societies and their citizens usually don’t know how to say “sorry”, or “it was my fault”, or “I was wrong” as this is giving up one’s honour and submitting one to shame, which is unacceptable. Western countries are guilt based and not perfect either and have their problems as well. But guilt based societies, like most European countries have given rise to stable Democracratic, plural and secular societies, which tolerate other’s religions and view them as equal, at least constitutionally and legally speaking.

In my humble opionion, Islamism, mixed with Shame based culture are a deadly combination and it is difficult to rationalize on a level playing field with a person who possesses these two facets. Having said that, I have lots of friends who are muslims, who are quite rational and fair and some of them are Pakistani origin, but born in Western countries. Just think about it.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive
 

umair and all the pakistanis …even if u get kashmir on a platter you wont stop insurgency agaisnt india…

they deserve whatever is happining in pakistan today.pakistan is the root cause for this.pakistan has been creating militant organ. like let and huji to target india.

After 26/11 i think pakistan should have been taught a lesson.but the indian govt was too soft and there was no decisive action,even today pakistan govt is not cooperating with the investigations and are giving excuses for their incompetence.

I thinks this diplomacy of a soft power state should not be persued by india..

In 1971 when india helped bangladesh to achieve freedom that brought peace for 30 years in the sub continent.

India should not interfere in pakistan’s internal matter now.. but yes if taliban takes over pakistan or even destablizes pak….india should involve with nato and clean the mess and divide pakistan in 3-4 parts with pak occupied kashmir in india..that will bring peace and all parties will be happy..

so the root of the problem is pakistan and the answer is balochistan,punjab and sindhistan .lets see if BJP comes to power and takes necessary and decisive action.Mannohan and shivraj patil have just done nothing accept neuclear deal and giving condolence after each and every terrorist attacks..

Posted by Raging bull | Report as abusive
 

Umair says:

“Army chief General Ashfaq Kayani issued a statement aimed at dispelling those doubts and calming a mounting sense of crisis.

The army “will not allow the militants to dictate terms to the government or impose their way of life on the civil society of Pakistan,” the statement quoted Kayani as saying.”

Most people in the world are now viewing the Pakistani Army as weak and think it is incapable of making decisions or protecting its citizens from the true dangers to Pakistan.

The question is, can Kayani prevent those platoons, which are loyal to Radical Islamists or Balochi’s or Sindhi’s, can he prevent them from going their own direction and disintegrating your country? Can the Punjabi platoons in your Pak Army have the guts to challenge the Talibanized Punjabi’s in Punjab, when they start rising in numbers? I doubt it, it is when the Punjabi Fauji’s won’t have the guts or heart to engage the future Punjabi Taliban, that Pakistan has truly fallen to pieces.

Right now, the Pak Army is only good for words, but always ready to engage tough words with India, its fictitious enemy.

The Taliban will continue to break their deals. You can count on it. Sharia is more important to them than keeping their word with Pakistan.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive
 

Raging Bull says:

“umair and all the pakistanis …even if u get kashmir on a platter you wont stop insurgency agaisnt india…”

Raging Bull, you hit the nail on the head..the great driver I believe for Pakistan is to re-affirm Islam over the entire India, if Kashmir was a non issue, another fictitious “plight” of muslims would be artificially created to make an excuse to make inroads into Gujarat and the large portions of India, to encircle even Delhi. This was the sick and mental wish of Pakistani General Niazi, who surrendered to India in 1971. It is this sick mental religious entitlement which fuels hatred towards India, fuels its military machine and all of Pakistan’s politics. Pakistan does not care how it keeps scratching away land from India, whether it is by open war or proxy armies, any and all dirty tactics are good to annex ancestral Indian land.

In short, if Kashmir was not an issue, another “Kashmir” like issue would have been created to start hatreds and fuel wars with India, with absolute certainty.

This is religiously entitled political Islamism is the root cause of the wars with India and the root cause of the reason is Pakistan is coming apart.

Not in a billion years, will Indians ever pay the racist Jizyah tax for non-muslims ever again, living on the land of their own blood ancestors.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive
 

No concessions to militants: Kayani

RAWALPINDI (updated on: April 24, 2009, 18:49 PST): The Chief of Army Staff (COAS), General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani on Friday insisted the military was ready for the threat posed by Taliban insurgents, saying its decision not to deploy in a militant-infested area was tactical.

According to ISPR press release, addressing the participants the COAS stated that he was aware of the doubts being voiced about the intent as well as the capability of the army to defeat the militancy in the country. He made it clear that Pakistan Army never has and never will hesitate to sacrifice, whatever it may take, to ensure safety and wellbeing of people of Pakistan and country’s territorial integrity.

The COAS stated that operational pause, meant to give the reconciliatory forces a chance, must not be taken for a concession to the militants. He declared that army’s rank and file has resolve to fight to eliminate the militants, who endanger the lives of peaceful citizens of the country and challenge the writ of the state.

He reassured the people of Pakistan that with their support, army is determined to root out the menace of terrorism from the society. It will not allow the militants to dictate terms to the Government or impose their way of life on the civil society of Pakistan.

Kayani condemned pronouncements by outside powers raising doubts on the future of the country. A country of 170 M resilient people under a democratic dispensation, strongly supported by the army, is capable of handling any crisis that it may confront. He stated that the victory against the terror and militancy will be achieved at all cost.

The COAS praised the rank and file for continuing to fight under challenging and arduous conditions. Praying for the souls of Shaheeds of Armed forces, Civilian Law Enforcement Agencies and civilians, the COAS assured the bereaved families and the Nation that the debt of their sacred blood will be paid back by the Army, and safety of the people and the Country ensured at all costs.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Raging Bull, just to add to the below, since this is the long term goal, this may be why the Pakistani establishment is not taking the Taliban threat seriously, as they have been making deals with them and tolerating them and any sort of military engagement with them is seen as a minor obstacle to their goals of War and conquest over much of India.

They even probably believe that the Taliban rising in numbers as being a strategic asset against India. They don’t care about how the world views them, they only care about their religiously politically entitled re-occupation of India, through any issue, hook or crook, terrorism or war, it does not matter, as long as the objective is achieved. They cannot conquer Afghanistan as the Punjabi’s figured that they cannot ever crush the Pathan’s. The Pathan’s are ungovernable and unconquerable, so they keep their eyes towards India and hope to exploit any and all weaknesses in India’s armour.

In my opinion, at their core, the Pakistani establishment use this goal of conquering India to guide all their actions. This fuels much money to go into the pockets of the Army and their family members.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive
 

that’s right Global Watcher ,

today they cannot think of annexing india as they are trying to f#*k their own a##.

they even forget that people living in kashmir were mostly hindus who were later coverted and muslim rulers did that by force.they have a civilization of 2000 years old.

even most of the people in afghanistan and pakistan were buddhists and not all of them were invaders.

Posted by Raging bull | Report as abusive
 

OFFICIAL INTER SERVICES PUBLIC RELATIONS Press Release
ISPR- PAKISTAN ARMY G.H.Q RAWALPINDI

http://www.ispr.gov.pk/front/main.asp?o= t-press_release&id=610

No 104/2009-ISPR Dated: April 24, 2009

Rawalpindi – April 24, 2009: The Chief of Army Staff (COAS), General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani today chaired an operational meeting at the General Headquarters, Rawalpindi.
While addressing the participants the COAS stated that he was aware of the doubts being voiced about the intent as well as the capability of the Army to defeat the militancy in the Country. He made it clear that Pakistan Army never has and never will hesitate to sacrifice, whatever it may take, to ensure safety and wellbeing of people of Pakistan and Country’s territorial integrity.
The COAS stated that operational pause, meant to give the reconciliatory forces a chance, must not be taken for a concession to the militants. He declared that Army’s rank and file has resolve to fight to eliminate the militants, who endanger the lives of peaceful citizens of the Country and challenge the writ of the State. He reassured the people of Pakistan that with their support, Army is determined to root out the menace of terrorism from the society. It will not allow the militants to dictate terms to the Government or impose their way of life on the civil society of Pakistan.
He condemned pronouncements by outside powers raising doubts on the future of the Country. A Country of 170 M resilient people under a democratic dispensation, strongly supported by the Army, is capable of handling any crisis that it may confront. He stated that the victory against the terror and militancy will be achieved at all cost.
The COAS praised the rank and file for continuing to fight under challenging and arduous conditions. Praying for the souls of Shaheeds of Armed forces, Civilian Law Enforcement Agencies and civilians, the COAS assured the bereaved families and the Nation that the debt of their sacred blood will be paid back by the Army, and safety of the people and the Country ensured at all costs.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

@Umair,

The Army is all talk and the establishment will say almost anything to Western Media to keep some semblance of their image. The reality is quite different, the Pakistani establishment is good only for talk and not willing to engage the Taliban. These guys did not come this far to turn around. The miltary is not even challenging Muslim Khan and his mighty band of men and Haqqani. Why are these Taliban leaders still allowed to operate? You can bet, if this involved India, the entire nation would be in a state of high military alert and the entire Pakistan would be ready for war. You guys have not even as much as flinched as the Taliban inch closer to Islamabad.

Kayani can keep his empty promises and lies to himself, the western countries don’t believe a thing anymore that comes out of Pakistan.

Your words are hollow and lack any integrity or honesty.

Talk is cheap action is louder than words. Show me first, then talk.

I am curious to see how the U.S. will react when you are caught red handed betraying them.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive
 

High-level meeting over Swat situation underway at Presidency
Updated at: 2217 PST, Friday, April 24, 2009
http://www.geo.tv/4-24-2009/40622.htm

ISLAMABAD: A high-level meeting to review Swat situation is in progress here at the Presidency on Friday.

President Asif Ali Zardari, Prime Minister Yusuf Raza Gilani and Chief of Army Staff General Ashfaq Parvez Kayanai are present at the meeting.

The meeting will review Swat situation in particular and the overall situation in country in general, sources said.

Awami National Party Chief, Asfandyar Wali and Foreign Minister, Shah Mehmood Qureshi are also attending the meeting.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Hillary Clinton on the great Nationalist hero of Pakistan, Mr. AQ Khan:

“With respect to A Q Khan, there’s no doubt he is probably the world’s greatest proliferator. The damage that he’s done around the world has been incalculable. It’s no secret that Pakistan has done very little, to reign in it’s rogue elements”

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive
 

Maybe Pakistan will respond to the RISAT:

http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/2009/04/21  /4143279.htm

Posted by Keith | Report as abusive
 

Maybe Pakistan will respond to the RISAT:

http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/2009/04/21   /4143279.htm
- Posted by Keith

Yeah, that should certainly be the top-most priority for them, right now!

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive
 

It is truly curious how the militant taliban in pakistan has recently turned around their stand and now said that they observe the validity of the Pakistani constitution.

It is becoming more clear than ever that the Pakistani establishment, if they are not fighting the Taliban are in fact using this crisis as a cover to embolden and raise a large army of Mujahideen to fight India and further destabilize Afghanistan and keep the US in a state of need where they would want Pakistan’s co-operation and help, IE billions of U.S. dollars. This would explain why Kayani and Pasha have chosen not to engage the Taliban. THey are quiet and playing a cloak and dagger game on the US and the world and intend to re-infuse Islamic Nationalism in Pakistan through the Taliban and use this movement to re-energize their destablization and future Mujahideen wars with India.

This is the only plausible reason I see for the Pak Army and ISI not engaging the Taliban, making peace with them and defying U.S. request.

Posted by GLobal Watcher | Report as abusive
 

Maybe Pakistan will respond to the RISAT:

http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/2009/04/21  /4143279.htm
- Posted by Keith

I wonder how many years Pakis have to eat grass or something else for “developing” Satellite technology this time.

Moreover why would they need RISAT, Indians are not infiltrating in Pak dirts.

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive
 

Keith wrote:
Maybe Pakistan will respond to the RISAT:

http://www.tmcnet.com/usubmit/2009/04/21   /4143279.htm

If Pakistan assebles some brains and get down to the nitty and gritty, I am sure we are smart enough to launch one of our own spy satellite. Pakistan had a space research prograam since the 80s (SUPARCO), the appetite and expertise are there, the Institute of Space Technologies offers degrees in Aerospace, Communication Systems, Materials Science & Engineering etc. http://www.ist.edu.pk
Also Pakistan Space and Upper Atmosphere Research Commission (SUPARCO), the national space agency, was established in 1961 as a Committee and was granted the status of a Commission in 1981.

SUPARCO is mandated to conduct R&D in space science, space technology, and their peaceful applications in the country. It works towards developing indigenous capabilities in space technology and promoting space applications for socio-economic uplift of the country.
http://www.suparco.gov.pk
———————————————————
SUPARCO acquires and archives satellite data from different earth resources satellites. The data products and related services are offered to different user agencies within and outside Pakistan.

SUPARCO’s Satellite Ground Station, located at Rawat near Islamabad, has an acquisition zone of approximately 2500 Km radius and covers Pakistan and 25 other countries, wholly or partially, in the South Asian, Central Asian and Western Asian/Middle East regions.

http://www.suparco.gov.pk/pages/acquisit ion-zone.asp?acqlinksid=2

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

@The COAS stated that operational pause, meant to give the reconciliatory forces a chance, must not be taken for a concession to the militants”

–The synthesis of “Operational pause” reminded me of “costume malfunction” of Janet Jackson when she was singing/dancing with Justin Timberlake who during the show tore off a portion of her costume, resulting in Janet flashing a breast to over 90 million viewers on live TV during Super Bowl half-time. Operational pause is seen by lot more and hurt many.

Operational pause in reality is to delay as much as it could be. I really want to be proved wrong.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/artic leshow/4422951.cms

“This is an imaging satellite that can identify features on ground. There is nothing as a spy satellite. Though the satellite has a global coverage we will use it only for our use,” ISRO chief G Madhavan Nair told reporters at a post-launch press conference!!!”

“The satellite launched on Monday is actually RISAT-2 that was fast-tracked in the wake of the 26/11 Mumbai attacks in place of the RISAT-1 that ISRO is developing.”

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

Umair

When it comes to AQ Khan…I can understand why he is a hero to Pakistanis. However, that does not mean the west is going to loathe him any less. He stole classified technology. What do you think that has done to the job prospects for Pakistani nationals in high technology in the West? Do you think companies like Urenco will hire another Pakistani again?

But stealing technology is not as bad as selling it to the enemies of your allies. On this front I don’t blame him, I blame the Army generals and the politicians who conspired to do this. This is something I guarantee you that the US and probably the rest of the West will never forgive Pakistan for. We wouldn’t have a North Korea problem today if it wasn’t for the AQ Khan network.

Umair. Tell me honestly, how would you react to a foreign national who stole secrets from say KRL and then sold it to India? Would you think that this individual did was honorable just because he wanted to better the lot of his country.

Posted by Keith | Report as abusive
 

I am curious though how the Paks will respond. The benefit in such a satellite accrues far more for India than Pakistan. I suppose Pakistan could use it in war time and to stop infiltration on the western border. But for India this satellite is critical to reducing infiltration into Kashmir and to help find militant training camps in Pakistan.

…of course, you also have to have good imagery analysts. The work is extremely difficult. And its really hard to train people for it…takes a bit of talent to do this. Anyone on here know if India has an imagery agency like the US NGA?

Posted by Keith | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan has uses for such satellites. These are the reasons.

1. Their “low self esteem” will be satisfied by achieving parity with India. It does not matter what India does. Pakistan has to do the same thing so that their lack of self-belief can be addressed.

2. They can watch NATO/US/Drone movements and alert their Islamic brothers who fight with low tech weapons unlike the Western soldiers.

3. They can pick and choose which convoys to blow up on their road to Kabul.

4. They can alert their brothers to run and hide when NATO and US forces are coming too close.

5. They can tell their holy warriors what festival or activity is going on and send them there to blow people up and cause maximum damage.

6. They can track all Indian Naval activities and alert drug and contraband smugglers of the ISI field commander Dawood Ibrahim about when to sneak them in.

And so on.

Pakistani scientists have already started eating grass to achieve this. Soon their patriotic diaspora will be trying to steal blue prints from labs across the world to smuggle back to home land. Then the Chinese will come in to help assemble it all.

Already Pakistanis are asking why India constantly wants to trouble them like this. Soon there will be embarrassing videos of donkeys chasing holy warriors filmed by the RISAT that the world will watch and laugh.

 

Keith
I understand the concerns in the west, but can you please tell me what alternatives did Pakistan have? How did it all started, India tested a nuclear device back in 1974, Pakistan had fought three devastating wars with India by that time. The people of South Asia were greatly deprived because of a nuclear arms race between India and Pakistan. Pakistan had to acquire the weapons by all means. I understand it was unethical by the AQ Khan network driven by financial gains. But you had the US Los Alomos lab scientist case too. You sometimes have Russian, Israeli and American spies doing some dirty spying work against their own country. Had Pakistan been given the proper nuclear weapons status and accepted by world powers in the nuclear club formally, I think there should have been much tighter controls in place to curb such activity. However, it is bygone now, Pakistan has apologized and the AQ Khan network has gone bust, the matter is closed from Pakistan’s side and no further investigation will take place against Dr. Khan.
On a personal note, around 2003, when I was in college Dr. Khan visited us as a guest speaker. I didnt have a very one on one interaction with him but still found him to be a humble and soft spoken man although a good six feet tall and well built physically. He lives in his house in Islamabad and is in good health, he was in Karachi recently to attend his deceased brother’s funeral.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Strictly speaking pakistan is not in league of india and china

India is a developing nation which has invested a lot in setting up good private MNC’s which are in elite league to complete with global giants

I was recently doing a simple search on pakistan

1)Pakistan is unable to manufacture basic engineering goods e.g. Bike,Cycle,Heavy machine,Engine,Any kind of automobile,Turbines
2)Pakistan is over dependent on western aid which help them to import cheap goods from china
3)Pakistani Public and Private sector is in line with bangladesh

but how could pakistan produce missiles ?
1)90% assistance from china
2)other 10% from korea
3)Even defense industries have cloning ability
4)Pakistan is right at bottom in innovation index

To conclude:
Even with 100% chinese assistance of technology transfer which is not possible
,pakistan with 50 Mediocre PHD passing out /year ,can not expect to produce a launch vehicle
Pakistan economy is extra dependent on Western grants

Final Conclusion:
Pakistan should learn to be a good neighbor and stop competing with india which has Comparitively skilles labour and high skilled technology.it should first try to clean up the links of islamic terror and fight taliban

Some people are talking about pakistan producing Anti satellite weapons..I doubt they can produce it in even 100 years :)

Posted by keane | Report as abusive
 

Umair writes: “The people of South Asia were greatly deprived because of a nuclear arms race between India and Pakistan. Pakistan had to acquire the weapons by all means.”

People in India did not feel deprived because of nuclear weapons development. We have enough to sustain many activities related to defense, welfare, education and economic progress. We know that Pakistanis ate grass to get the weapons by all means. So now you will eat the nukes too. Because you have nothing else.

 

Umair,

Saying that there are spies in another country does not make it right. When foreign spies are caught in the west they are prosecuted. You can bet if Khan ever leaves Pakistan he will be prosecuted.

Anyway, to some extent the west can understand why Khan did what he did. The US and its allies are more upset at the proliferation. What was the excuse for it? Really?

For Pakistan to really make amends they should have at least come clean and told the west which countries they proliferated to so that the west would know which countries are a threat. Instead, Pakistan swept it under the rug and said. ‘case closed’. That does not sound like the behaviour of a friend and ally. These actions almost indicate that Pakistan values its nuclear customer’s friendship more than the western countries providing it with aid.

To say that the matter is closed does nothing. Maybe it’s closed for Pakistan. Meanwhile, we in North America have to worry about North Korean missiles with the range to reach New York that could have nuclear warheads on them (provided by Pakistan).

Posted by Keith | Report as abusive
 

@Keith

The West sent chemical weapons to Saddam Hussein and nuclear weapons to Israel. Dr Khan’s activities, while wrong, were not a violation of international law.

Hence Pakistan did the right thing to investigate, then close the case.

 

The West sent chemical weapons to Saddam Hussein and nuclear weapons to Israel. Dr Khan’s activities, while wrong, were not a violation of international law.

Hence Pakistan did the right thing to investigate, then close the case.
- Posted by Aamir Ali

In the end the West ended up paying the price for their proliferation to Iraq. The US was worried enough about the consequences of Hussein’s activities that they kept a presence in Kuwait for a decade and then occupied the country. So this is not a policy that should be emulated.

Next, when the west did provide technologies they did so to allies (Saddam was an ally at the time). Are you now suggesting that North Korea is a better ally to Pakistan than the United States, Europe and Canada? If that’s the case, I strongly recommend that you advocate for your government to seek your bailouts from them instead of the IMF. Why is Pakistan begging at the FODP if Pakistanis like you consider us westerners not to be friends? Take your begging bowl to your proliferation clients Iran and North Korea. See how that works out for you. And don’t thinks its just the west that’s worried. China doesn’t seem particularly generous towards Pakistan these days.

Third, it may not be a crime under international law since Pakistan is not a signatory to the NPT, but theft of intellectual property particularly when it’s classified is a violation of national law. That would make Dr. Khan a criminal. If you have any doubts, give him a ticket to Europe. I would personally be willing to pay for a first class ticket for him to any European country if he was willing to go.

Posted by Keith | Report as abusive
 

Keith,

It’s quite obvious, why Pakistan doesn’t want anyone laying their hands on AQ Khan. Because once that happens, the two-faced nature of the Pakistani establishment will be out in the open. It sold nuclear technology to America’s (& the west’s) enemies, while acting as an ally, to get aid from them. It’s quite clear that Khan wasn’t acting on his own but rather, on the orders of the Pakistani Army & Government.

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive
 

Today’s Pakistan resembles a Mafia system that has a proper military, intelligence and a country at its disposal. The system bears all resemblance to a drug cartel in South America where drug barons dictate terms to everyone in the country. Mafia barons survive by double dealing. They befriend powerful people and manipulate them so that when they commit their crimes, most of their actions are either ignored or covered up. But Mafia dons never die a normal death. They die at the hands of each other or the police. India worries about Pakistan, the way city-folks worry about a crime-ridden neighborhood in their vicinity. I see no difference between a radicalized Pakistan and the gangsters of big cities, Aryan Nations, KKK etc which survive on ideology, hatred, misguided youth, violence etc. They belong to the prisons.

 

Mauryan said:

“Today’s Pakistan resembles a Mafia system that has a proper military, intelligence and a country at its disposal. The system bears all resemblance to a drug cartel in South America where drug barons dictate terms to everyone in the country. Mafia barons survive by double dealing. They befriend powerful people and manipulate them so that when they commit their crimes, most of their actions are either ignored or covered up. But Mafia dons never die a normal death. They die at the hands of each other or the police. India worries about Pakistan, the way city-folks worry about a crime-ridden neighborhood in their vicinity. I see no difference between a radicalized Pakistan and the gangsters of big cities, Aryan Nations, KKK etc which survive on ideology, hatred, misguided youth, violence etc. They belong to the prisons.”

Mauryan I agree with you, the Punjabi’s are the main Mafia family in Pakistan, then you got the Baloch, Sindh,etc. The drug war will be like the different Ethnic Battalions and Platoons, I forsee a possibility, that if Punjab becomes overrun and the Punjabi Army Crime Family of Pakistan politically loses to the Taliban, then I could see a “Mafia” war breaking out, where each Battalion of the Army is looking to protect their own Ethnic homeland first and loyalties will shift those regions as those ethnics who have had a bone to pick with the Punjabi Fauji’s, they will challenge the power of the Punjabi’s, this is one way how disintegration may happen from within, and take the form of a “Mafia” war, where there is a PA rebellion from within, like we saw in Bangladesh, just recently where junior officers murdered senior officers. That would be considered a high level hit at the mafia bosses themselves.

The Punjabi Fauji’s don’t give a rat’s axx about the average Pakistani, they only care to look after their own selfish business model, that being keeping India an enemy and making sure that enough Islamic and political propaganda in Pakistan keeps those people stupid enough to believe it and hopes that they will be willing to back any sort of future artificially created wars with India.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive
 

GW,

Pakistan’s formation was done due to the selfish interests of dons like Jinnah. I am a firm believer in the law of karma. If you start with hatred and violence, you end with the same. Pakistan’s downfall had to come from within and it has. These fools are still looking at India as the enemy. India has paid for its bad karma by being enslaved by the Turks, Mughals, the British and the Nehru family. After 1991, India’s good karma has begun to take effect. That is why I want our country to be fair and not engage in any acts that will add negative karma. India should simply focus on progress while protecting itself with minimal effort and continue on. Pakistan’s collective karma has simply accumulated negativity. And it will end by itself. No matter how much one can try and no matter which community one belongs to, karma will always affect. No one is an exception to it.

 

@Keith
I understand the concerns in the west, but can you please tell me what alternatives did Pakistan have? How did it all started, India tested a nuclear device back in 1974.
-by Umair

Umair: I have told you earlier also about this. Nehru’s India was into NOn-Aligned movemnt/peacefulf co-existence, not into this some power play–he did not accept UN Permament membership and asked that to be given to China invading the neighbour in any way.

1962 Indo-China war changed all that. They backstabbed and not to go off the topic you Pakistan was mighty encouraged and invaded India in 1965 and Pakistan is still licking the wounds.
Remember this quote (wikipidpedia) and never ever forget when you bring India Pakistan and nuclear test into question:

“596 is the codename of the People’s Republic of China’s first nuclear weapons test, detonated on October 16, 1964 at the Lop Nur test site. It was a uranium-235 implosion fission device and had a yield of 22 kilotons. With the test, China became the fifth nuclear power.”

Chinese backstabbing and the above fact and then India had to do Pokhran and much later the nuclear test. India could have done anytime-Nehru was not into that and was into peaceful means of engagement. Little did he know that the neighbors are into “pieceful” not peaceful means.

That Pakistan followed India is just superficial. in reality Pakistan’s nuclear program dates back to the 1950s.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

It is heartening to know india has now an eye in the sky . although indian officials deny it , the sat. is obviously for defense purposes . I anticipate the pakistanis will try and pull off another spectacular attack on india in the near future , the 40 odd terrorista who were killed recently might have been sent for the same objective (or were here to disrupt elections).I think it is not pragmatic to expect pakistanis to act against these jihadi elements . we should strengthen our own defenses and crush the pawns they send here . Also we should wait for and support the voices of dessent in pakistan to grow . lasting peace in india can be achieved by letting [actively causing] pakistan crumble and let the different states loose on one another . they deserve it .
pakistan already has lost bangladesh , and is on the brink of bankruptcy and large parts of its territory are lawless . If even now pakistanis have not learnt their lesson then they probably never will . and hoping that they will is just being naieve

Posted by Gill | Report as abusive
 

also i dont know if indians are helping the balochs in their struggle , if if they are , its superb .

Posted by Gill | Report as abusive
 

Because Indians have sent RISAT, Pakistan also has to send one; even if it may not be necessary. Had Indians tied a monkey from the deepest jungles of Africa to that satellite, Pakistan will follow suit. Pakistan has no choice because it’s matter of balance(?) of power and national pride.

Posted by Nikhil | Report as abusive
 
 

Pakistan’s collective karma has simply accumulated negativity. And it will end by itself. No matter how much one can try and no matter which community one belongs to, karma will always affect. No one is an exception to it.
- Posted by Mauryan

I agree with this concept. No one is above Karma, individual or nation. No nation is perfect & every country has both good & bad karma but it seems, Pakistan as a nation, has accumulated too much of the bad karma & too little of the good. So, it has to pay the price for it’s sins.

Bad Karma can be diminished or absolved, as long as a person or nation, admits it’s sins, asks for genuine forgiveness & repents. But from what I see, Pakistan as a nation, is not willing to even admit any of it’s sins (be it the genocide of 3 million bengalis or the massacring of countless Indian civilians via terrorism), let alone ask for forgiveness or repent. Unless the Pakistani nation admits & repents for it’s sins, I’m afraid, much worse is yet to come, for it.

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive
 

@also i dont know if indians are helping the balochs in their struggle , if if they are , its superb.
- Posted by Gill

-Gill: India has done in the past and shut down these RAw missions on moral grounds way back in mid 1990s once Punjab militancy was eradicated.
US yesterday confirmed that there ar no proofs India is helping anti-Pakistan elements and also told Pakistan to focus inside on Taliban et al.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

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