How much time does Pakistan have?

May 20, 2009

Ahmed Rashid’s article on Pakistan in the New York Review of Books makes for an alarming read.  Excerpts do not do justice to it,  as you have to read the whole thing to understand why he thinks Pakistan really is on the brink, but here are a few:

“American officials are in a concealed state of panic, as I observed during a recent visit to Washington at the time when 17,000 additional troops were being dispatched to Afghanistan. The Obama administration unveiled its new Afghan strategy on March 27, only to discover that Pakistan is the much larger security challenge, while US options there are far more limited.”

“The last two years have bought some hope in the growth of the middle class, an articulate and increasingly influential civil society made up partly of urban professionals and publicly involved women. Most Pakistanis are not Islamic extremists and believe in moderate and spiritual forms of Islam, including Sufism. However, Pakistan is now reaching a tipping point. There is a chronic failure of leadership, whether by civilian politicians or the army. President Zardari’s decision to invade Swat in early May came only after pressure was applied by the Obama administration and the army and the government had been left with no other palatable options. But with the Taliban opening new fronts, it will soon become impossible for the army to respond to the multiple threats it faces on so many geographically distant battlefields. The Taliban’s campaigns to assassinate politicians and administrators have demoralized the government.”

“The Obama administration can provide money and weapons but it cannot recreate the state’s will to resist the Taliban and pursue more effective policies. Pakistan desperately needs international aid, but its leaders must first define a strategy that demonstrates to its own people and other nations that it is willing to stand up to the Taliban and show the country a way forward.”

There has been much alarmist talk this year about Pakistan, notably with U.S. adviser David Kilcullen saying in March that the Pakistani state could collapse within six months, followed by Secretary of State Hillary Clinton saying in April that Pakistan posed a “mortal threat” to the world. Most of that talk has been dismissed as exaggerated, including by Juan Cole in his blog Informed Comment and other analysts. The country has a strong civil society, which only in March took to the streets to demand an independent judiciary and the reinstatement of the Chief Justice. It has a powerful military, and whatever its critics say about its policies, the Pakistan Army is intensely patriotic and is hardly likely to hand over control of the country to Islamist militants who do not even believe in the existence of the nation state. 

Yet looking at the flood of refugees in Pakistan — above one million and still rising, according to the UNHCR — you do have to wonder how much time Pakistan has to right itself.  President Asif Ali Zardari says the current offensive in the Swat valley is just the start of an operation that will take the army  deep into the tribal areas bordering Afghanistan.  How many more internal refugees can the country cope with, especially given that it traces its current instability to the three million refugees who flooded in from Afghanistan after the Soviet invasion in 1979?

Part of the problem is that some of the solutions for Pakistan lie in the long term.  To the west, an end to the fighting in Afghanistan would stop instability washing over into Pakistan. But no one expects a political settlement in Afghanistan any time soon. To the east, peace with India would boost the economy by encouraging trade and give the Pakistan Army an opportunity to readjust its mindset away from seeing India as an existential threat. But India remains wary of Pakistan after last November’s attack on Mumbai and any moves made by the newly re-elected government of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh to reduce tension are likely to be slow and tentative.

If Pakistan is indeed, as Rashid writes, reaching a tipping point, it does not have the time to wait for long-term solutions.

(Photos: Refugees caught up in a dust storm/Faisal Mahmood)

Comments

My own addendum to Mauryans overview on Partition.
India had never accepted the 2 nation theory before and detested the same after partition. Especially religion remaining as the basis of partition. India remained secular all along. So, the reason calling a plebiscite as ‘outdated’ has its roots in the ground reality of a ‘failed 2 nation theory ( based on religion). As is obvious India had retained its muslim population nearly completely within itself without the expected emigration and, had witnessed muslims to flourish along with, hindus, sikhs, christians, Buddhists and jains. So, now after 6 decades, there is no case for a redrawing of boundary based on strengths of religions in a given territory. Today, Bangladesh, Pakistan and India have similar numbers of muslims in all 3 countries, give or take a few millions.
Lets bring in the example of Sikh separatist movement here. Sikh secessionists had lost all support from their own, presumably, when they realized, the hopelessness and impracticality of survival as an independent nation, that is land locked between India and Pakistan. Its obvious that similar situation is bound to happen to Kashmir and hence kashmiris, if they think with a clear mind, should decline independence.
Atrocities, the scale of which need to be analyzed, somehow do not culminate in border crossing by the thousands (of beleaguered muslims as was witnessed in bangladesh). Instead, we saw all hindus (pundits) for years leaving (Indian) kashmir and to date living in squalid camps.
Myra, one of these days please write a post on Kashmiri hindus.

 

@Azadm you said:

“Lets bring in the example of Sikh separatist movement here. Sikh secessionists had lost all support from their own, presumably, when they realized, the hopelessness and impracticality of survival as an independent nation, that is land locked between India and Pakistan.”

On that small note, I would like to add that the Sikh separatist movement for Khalistan was fueled and supported by Pakistan, the Pak Army and the ISI. Their goal was to catch India off guard and decapitate the Indian government. A cabal of political and power hungry Sikh expatriats who amased money fueled this movement with guidance from Islamabad. This sininster immoral group hijacked Sikhism. As a Brahmin Hindu, I have many friends who are Sikhs and grew up with them and love them respect them as family, as they do me. I frequented the Sikh temples more often than any Hindu temples and can identify with the Sikh Jatt Culture. Regardless, the past is the past and the Sikh Religion is a part of the greater family of India and the rest of India has must reverance and respect it shall continue to show to the brave Sikhs of India, bless them all and bless Mr. Singh the prime minister of India.

Many of the Sikhs who were once emboldended by the band-wagon idea of a separate state now realize that they were cheated and lie to and are in fact dis-enchanted. We don’t want Sikhs to separate, they are a part of the larger Indian family and we are incomplete without them.

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Ok,

I’m not going to answer the comments on Kashmir for now as so many details are contested that it deserves its own post, or indeed multiple posts. (Over time, I promise I will come back to them.)

But reading the comments about Pakistan in general prompted me to reread Jinnah’s 1940 speech in Lahore. I found a version on the internet here:

http://www.pakalumni.com/profiles/blog/s how?id=1119293%3ABlogPost%3A57587

It’s very long (glorious pre-soundbite days) so I suspect that people can, and will, pull out whatever quotes they want to suit any particular argument. Certainly each time I’ve read it, a different line jumps out at me as being significant. So I’ll resist the temptation to pull out the quotes I think are important for now and suggest you read it in full, remembering as well the context of the times.

It would be interesting at some point to discuss what Jinnah planned for Pakistan, but there is time for that and no need to jump in now with an instant comment.

Myra

Posted by Myra MacDonald | Report as abusive
 

GW Writes: “I would like to add that the Sikh separatist movement for Khalistan was fueled and supported by Pakistan, the Pak Army and the ISI. Their goal was to catch India off guard and decapitate the Indian government. A cabal of political and power hungry Sikh expatriats who amased money fueled this movement with guidance from Islamabad. This sininster immoral group hijacked Sikhism.”

It was not entirely a Sikh movement. There was politics involved. It was the time of Indira Gandhi, her infamous son Sanjay Gandhi and their clique of sycophants. Indira Gandhi was taking India down the path of self destruction. She had no value for democracy and liked autocracy preferable. Her son was much worse. She brought in the fashion of dismissing elected governments in states by creating a crisis there, installing either a puppet Congress government or governor’s rule. Based on the culture in each state, the response varied. In Andhra Pradesh she dismissed the popular NTR government and simultaneously dismissed Farooq Abdullah’s government in Kashmir. And to rub salt into the wound, she installed Bhaskar Rao, a congress lackey as CM in Andhra and Shah in Kashmir. In Kashmir this changed the public attitude. In Punjab, Zail Singh and Sanjay Gandhi helped prop up a very mild anti-Indian movement to create crisis for the publicly elected government of Darbara Singh. Bhindranwale was brought to prominence from obscurity and it was easy to install a governor’s rule. Pakistan immediately snatched the opportunity (I do not blame them) and things went out of control in no time. Once the common people are hurt and threatened, the problem could only escalate. Indira Gandhi, according to the book by Tariq Ali was finished off by the ISI under Zia’s instructions. One of the Sikh bodyguards who shot her, had sneaked into Pakistan and got training according to the author. In return, there is a theory that the Russians finished off Zia per Rajeev Gandhi’s request. I am digressing. Sorry. And it is not relevant to the topic. Just thought I’d share my views. In the late 1970s and until 1990, India did look unstable and some of us felt that the country would fall apart. But the nefarious leaders died one by one, right on time and India was saved. Hope Pakistan is saved from the brink of its own disaster now.

 

Myra
I read the speech, infact glanced through it and found the following part to be important in Mr. Jinnah’s speech:

“Mussalmans are not a minority as it is commonly known and understood. One has only got to look round. Even today, according to the British map of India, out of eleven provinces, four provinces where the Muslims dominate more or less, are functioning notwithstanding the decision of the Hindu Congress High Command to non-cooperate and prepare for civil disobedience. Mussalmans are a nation according to any definition of a nation, and they must have their homelands, their territory, and their state. We wish to live in peace and harmony with our neighbours as a free and independent people. We wish our people to develop to the fullest our spiritual, cultural, economic, social, and political life, in a way that we think best and in consonance with our own ideals and according to the genius of our people. Honesty demands [that we find], and [the] vital interest[s] of millions of our people impose a sacred duty upon us to find, an honourable and peaceful solution, which would be just and fair to all. But at the same time we cannot be moved or diverted from our purpose and objective by threats or intimidations. We must be prepared to face all difficulties and consequences, make all the sacrifices that may be required of us, to achieve the goal we have set in front of us.”

-Mr. Jinnah had also made reference to the Palestine issue, the Palestinians were unable to gain their statehood. Can someone on this blog tell me if there is a more brutal conflict raging on around the world other than the one between Israelis and Palestinians? what a price the Palestinians are paying, does everyone have a very short memory? did we forget when white phosphorus shells were dropped in Gaza last december kiling children, paramedics, doctors, aid workers, anyone that was in the way. Likewise, the many Palestinian suicide bombers who killed jews during all these years. Israel went to war during the 50s, 60s and 70s with all of its Arab neighbours, these wars carry on today, the 2006 Lebanon war, the 2008 Gaza offensive, the conflict has no end in sight.

People who still believe the two nation theory was not a reality must keep in mind. Had Pakistan not come into being, today what is hapening between jews and Muslims in Middle East would have looked like picnic compared to the way Muslims and hindus would have been at each other’s throat in India. Pakistan was established as a homeland for the muslims of India, and ofcourse the muslims were not a minority. The statements of Congress leaders like Lala Lajpat Rai that what do muslims need? compelled muslims to think,’boy, we better standup for our rights otherwise we are screwed up”. It was the attitude of Congress leaders who thought muslims as a minority under hindu rule. Obviously might is not right.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Umair writes: “what is hapening between jews and Muslims in Middle East would have looked like picnic compared to the way Muslims and hindus would have been at each other’s throat in India.”

I disagree. There are close to 160 million Muslims living in India and they are not at each others’ throats like Jews and Palestinians are. “Hindus” did not drive away Muslims and prevented them from coming to their “settlements.” Indian Muslims do not have to get work permits to clean floors in Hindu households. Hindu nation was not created in the middle of Muslim land, driving them out. The comparison sucks big time. In general, Indians are living in peace, be it Hindus or Muslims or anyone else. Indian Muslims have their own civil code. An Indian Muslim can marry four wives and Muslim divorce and alimony laws are different from that for others. India subsidizes Haj pilgrimage. Most poor Muslims come from states like UP and Bihar, where everyone else is also equally under privileged and poor. Muslims are not backward and poor because they are denied opportunities for following their faith. Most Islamic monuments in India are maintained in tact. Most Hindus have their livelihood to chase and are not that religious. Most religious riots in India are politically motivated. Even BJP’s quest for the Babri mosque was its attempt to gain power as a national party. They followed Jinnah’s principle of inciting violence to separate people, turn them against each other and gain from it. But India is a democracy. So they have to face the voters every five years or their coalition partners even earlier. Kindly do not paint a picture out of ignorance.

“Pakistan was established as a homeland for the muslims of India, and ofcourse the muslims were not a minority.”

Pakistan was founded as a nation for Muslims and it split up into two due to linguistic and ethnic differences. Even today, inside Pakistan, there is more allegiance to ethnicity than religion – Sindhis, Balochis, Pashtuns, Punjabis and so on. Islam is a great religion. But religions have not been successful in making and holding nations in tact. Ethnicity and culture have much stronger influence on nationhood than religion. That is why the Iranians and Iraqis went to war, and Saddam Hussein dropped chemical weapons on Kurdish people, and the Tajiks and Pashtuns hate each other. Where is religion in all these? All pray to the same Allah for His support. Who does He support? Who did He support when the Bengalis were slaughtered in East Pakistan?

We agree that Pakistan is a reality and we don’t want ever to merge with your country. But we know that Jinnah simply made a kingdom for himself by using religious sentiments and he could hardly be described as a Muslim for what he practiced. And what is not clear is that Jinnah’s Muslims were all right living under the British, but were not all right living in a country which had a Hindu majority. What makes the British special? How come Jinnah’s party colluded with them when the Indians were fighting for independence? A lot of questions arise. But one this is for sure – two nation theory was false. And it has been proved beyond doubt. The only thing that came out of the two nation theory is two nations facing each other with nuclear weapons. If this is what Jinnah wanted, he got it.

 

@I would never wish something like that to you, even our faith Islam says saving one person’s life is like saving the whole humanity. And killing one persons life is like killing the whole humanity.”
-posted by Umair

-Guys, in addition to the above Umair says, it is OK to use terrorism by LeT as foreign policy tool and hence kill Indian innocents. How low one can fall?

The only question is: is he an aberration or does he represent Pakistanis. Next time he uses the above statement, we know what he means. Such a pretense–the height of hypocrisy. Jinnah is rolling in his grave.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

Myra,
I read the speech, makes for an interesting read but this re-inforces my view that Jinnah’s demand for a seperate pakistan had more to do with the power struggle between Jinnah and Nehru. As far as I have read about him, he was not very religious.

Umair,
Everyone in India treats Pakistan as a seperate country there is no ambiguity in that and no one wants to occupy it. In all fairness, you deserve to live the life you want and create for yourself.
Jinnah wanted a seperate country for muslims (as evident in his speech) and he got what he wanted. Though I doubt he wanted an Islamic state with Sharia as the law. In my opinion it was more of a power struggle between Jinnah and Nehru. Jinnah believed that Hindus won’t vote for him if elections were to happen (that is why he mentioned Gandhi’s 3 votes to his 1) and thus he will never become a prime minister. So he created pakistan where he can have his say.
And not all Muslims wanted it that way. An apt example would be Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan.
When you divide a region on the basis of creed, religion, language, etc there will always be discontent moreso in countries like India, where it is said that “Every two miles the water changes, every four miles the speech” so you see there will always be differences we can live in peace with each other with all our differences if we want to.

Muslims in India are not dis-enfranchised as Jinnah said they would be. And believe me there have been articles by prominent muslim journalists in India who thank their stars and forefathers for deciding to stay in India. This is not to slight on Pakistan but to tell you India is a tolerant nation and Hindus and Muslims in India are not cutting each other’s throats.

One of our client is from Pakistan. The company’s team came to India and din’t find much difference in the culture be it food or people. So basically we are the same people who have decided to live seperately. There are some issues and I beleieve, they can be solved through dialogue, proxy war is not the right way to go about it.

Mauryan,
I am not saying India is a saint. Pakistan couldn’t have made so much progress in Kashmir terrorism if there was no discontent. I also believe that LoC as the international border is a solution which a pragmatci person can accept. Else both the sides can keep demanding the whole of Kashmir and never reach a conclusion. Moreover, LoC has served as the defacto border since 1948.

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Myra
“It would be interesting at some point to discuss what Jinnah planned for Pakistan,”

—Precisely what it is at present – death & destruction – a global parasite.

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Rajeev:
“-Guys, in addition to the above Umair says, it is OK to use terrorism by LeT as foreign policy tool and hence kill Indian innocents. How low one can fall?”

- Rajeev dont stoop down to personal attacks, I will be very blunt this time. Terrorist groups like LeT exist due to illegal Indian occupation of Kashmir. LeT should be denounced as much as the Indian Army which perpetrates state sponsored terrorism in Kashmir.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Umair,

“LeT should be denounced as much as the Indian Army which perpetrates state sponsored terrorism in Kashmir”

- The Indian Army is in Kashmir because of the daily infiltration attempts from the terrorists across the border. Let Pakistan dismantle the terrorist camps and the army will be withdrawn. It’s as simple as that.

Posted by Nikhil | Report as abusive
 

Umair writes: “LeT should be denounced as much as the Indian Army which perpetrates state sponsored terrorism in Kashmir”

I agree that bringing in military always ends up in brutality. Indian military in Kashmir has a special privilege. They have no accountability. They do not have to explain what they do. This can lead to uncontrolled atrocities sometimes. Groups like LeT have made it worse by relying on this weakness. They have managed to alienate the local Kashmiris. Most people there openly ask for freedom. It does not matter what Pakistan’s goal is. We as Indians must do the needful to bring peace to the people of this region. Their participation in the Indian elections, despite the LeT threat is a welcome sign. From our side, we must rebuild the bridge of reconciliation and accommodation. I hope Man Mohan Singh gives Kashmir peace a top priority and helps bring these people to accept the reality of today.

We know that groups like LeT do not have Kashmir alone in their agenda. Their leader had openly declared war against India and fight until India is destroyed. From that stand point, I’d like to know what Mr. Umair thinks.

 

Nikhil:
” The Indian Army is in Kashmir because of the daily infiltration attempts from the terrorists across the border. Let Pakistan dismantle the terrorist camps and the army will be withdrawn. It’s as simple as that.”

-Indian Army invaded Kashmir back in 1947/48, this is a leftover dispute from the partition, Kashmir remained under Indian Army occupation all along. Groups like LeT are a relatively recent phenomenon. You simply cannot justify huge Indian Army presence in Kashmir. And this is not the first time India is accusing Pakistan of harboring terrorist camps across the LoC, India has always complained of that. But Pakistan’s position has always been to settle the Kashmir dispute, thats why we have the UNMOGIP(United Nations Military Observer Group in India and Pakistan).
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/un mogip/

The UN peacekeeping observers/monitors and observe the LoC, and its only the UN that will decide if Pakistan is breaching the LoC and sending any terrorists. First, the UN will determine if there is any infiltration, if yes than it will ensure there are no terrorist camps infrastructure on Pakistani side.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

“Indian Army invaded Kashmir back in 1947/48, this is a leftover dispute from the partition, Kashmir remained under Indian Army occupation all along. Groups like LeT are a relatively recent phenomenon. You simply cannot justify huge Indian Army presence in Kashmir.”

-Posted by Umair:

Pakistan invaded first, only them Indians were called. If its a disputed territory, how do you justify huge Pakistan army in PoK or Azad kashmir ??

Are they playing marbles as Hamid Gul always says ?

Pakistan also holds PoK parts of Kashmir, why don’t LeT has a declared Anti Pak agenda ? How many terrorist attacks LeT did in Pakistan ?

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive
 

Mauryan:
“We know that groups like LeT do not have Kashmir alone in their agenda. Their leader had openly declared war against India and fight until India is destroyed. From that stand point, I’d like to know what Mr. Umair thinks.”

-I would like to draw your attention to the former President Gen. Musharraf’s speech to the nation on January 12, 2002 during the height of 2001/02 border standoff.
http://mea.gov.in/opinion/2002/01/30o02. htm
I am sure you can also search it on you tube. Musharraf had denounced and banned certain organizations, since than Pakistan has come a long way, we see Pakistan Army moving against the same terrorists. Non-state actors in Pakistan may say whatever, but they are not allowed to challenge the writ of the government. They did in Swat, and the government unleashed force on them. We can tame these handful of extremists, but the important thing is we also have extremists in India as well like Col. Purohit who was involved in Samjhota express blast killing Pakistani citizens. So, for groups who declare war against India, Pakistan has already declared war on them in 2002. there is a crackdown on them, but again Kashmir needs to be dealt with all sincerity. Otherwise the problem cannot be stemmed, kashmir will be the start. Once these groups will have no justification to fight in Kashmir, they can be taken on with greater resolve/force and put out of business.

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Punjabiyaar:
“Pakistan invaded first, only them Indians were called. If its a disputed territory, how do you justify huge Pakistan army in PoK or Azad kashmir ??”

-I disagree Pakistan invaded first, it was forcibely annexed to India by the Hindu Maharaja of Kashmir. And secondly, who called India in? the Maharaja? what authority did he have since Kashmir was a muslim majority state. Can you go back to the basis of partition, muslim majority areas were supposed to join Pakistan not India.

The question of Pakistan military presence in Kashmir, you have an 700,000 strong Indian military presence in Kashmir, Pakistan had to deploy accordingly.

“Pakistan also holds PoK parts of Kashmir, why don’t LeT has a declared Anti Pak agenda ? How many terrorist attacks LeT did in Pakistan ?”

-well, LeT is a culprit of many terrorist attacks in Pakistan too. Atleast at the support level, there are already indications that Taliban get support from terrorist groups like LeT.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Those who have qustions on LeT
http://www.cfr.org/publication/9135/

—————–
Oppression of Muslims only fosters terrorism, Pakistani leader warns General Assembly
http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?Ne wsID=19893&Cr=general&Cr1=debate&Kw1=UNM OGIP&Kw2=&Kw3=

“Turning to the long-standing conflict in Jammu and Kashmir, Mr. Musharraf said “an acceptable solution” is now within reach, thanks largely to improved relations between Pakistan and its neighbour India.

He added that he expected his meeting last week with Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh in Havana, on the sidelines of the Non-Aligned Summit, will help to promote the peace process in Kashmir.

First set up in 1949, the UN Military Observer Group in India and Pakistan (UNMOGIP) has monitored the ceasefire in Jammu and Kashmir since 1971. As of the end of July this year, there were 44 military observers and 66 civilian staff in the mission.”

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Umair:
“I disagree Pakistan invaded first, it was forcibely annexed to India by the Hindu Maharaja of Kashmir.”

This is a lie you have been told by your army. See any neutral source, where the hell did tribesmen came from ? If Pakistan did not invaded first, how do you still hold PoK today ?

I dont think Maharaja had any authority to sign Kashmir to India. But if Pakistan had not invaded it in the first place, why would India jump in the conflict.

“LeT is a culprit of many terrorist attacks in Pakistan too. Atleast at the support level, there are already indications that Taliban get support from terrorist groups like LeT.

Thats another lie, Pakistan has never officially accused and arrested any LeT operator for any terror attack in Pakistan. Where do you think Hafeez Mohd. Sayeed the founding father lives. India had gone numerous time to UN to get it Banned, but China used to veto it on request of Pakistan.

For you LeT and Taliban are terrorists only when they attack Pakistan, if they attack India, Pakistan cheerfully support them and give them names like Mujahid and Jehadi.

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive
 

Umair,

Indian army moved in 1990 in large numbers after the Pakistan assisted insurgency in Kashmir began. It’s a recent and not a 60 year old phenomena. UNMOIGP observation post exists because India and Pakistan disagree with each other’s position on Kashmir.

LeT, JuD, HuM and other Punjabi terrorist organizations do not fit in resolving border disputes. But, Pakistan openly supports them as ‘good’ mujahadins. Since 1999, India has choosen to negotiate with Pakistan but every attempt is sabotaged by the PA terrorist combine. Given the decay in Pakistani state, India may soon have to negotiate with the likes of the LeT instead of Zardari or Kayani.

Posted by Nikhil | Report as abusive
 

@Rajeev:
“-Guys, in addition to the above Umair says, it is OK to use terrorism by LeT as foreign policy tool and hence kill Indian innocents. How low one can fall?”
–I am least interested in getting personal. I don;t even know you. All I can do is trash the line of thought and nonsense statements by someone and that;s all I did. I heard your statements and spoke the truth in a most mild mannner. You sound so shallow when you give prophetic statements, such as talking about islam, humanity, while you approve of terrorism in India. Perhaps you are not burnt enough yet.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

Umair,

“The UN peacekeeping observers/monitors and observe the LoC, and its only the UN that will decide if Pakistan is breaching the LoC and sending any terrorists.”

- The UN is there to enforce violations from armed forces of sovereign nations across the border. In Pakistan, the Punjabi terrorists are an extension of their army but other countries do not follow that modus operandi. The UN at LoC does not arrest infiltrations.

LoC will be the international border; that’s the only pragmatic solution, may be now or may sixty years from now after thousands of more deaths and millions of dollars spent.

Posted by Nikhil | Report as abusive
 

Myra-

REF: JINNAH

Jinnahs vision was violated and replaced bythat of Zias.
http://www.sdpi.org/whats_new/reporton/S tate%20of%20Curr&TextBooks.pdf

Page32 (page16 in the book)

Assertion of the Ideology of Pakistan
Many scholars have forcefully argued, with the help of historical record that the term Ideology of Pakistan is a construction that did not exist when Pakistan was created. Justice Munir has very clearly identified the first time when the phrase was coined. In his monograph

From Jinnah to Zia he writes:
The Quaid-i-Azam never used the words “Ideology of Pakistan” … For fifteen
years after the establishment of Pakistan, the Ideology of Pakistan was not
known to anybody until in 1962 a solitary member of the Jama’at-I-Islami used
the words for the first time when the Political Parties Bill was being discussed.
On this, Chaudhry Fazal Elahi, who has recently retired as President of Pakistan,
rose from his seat and objected that the ‘Ideology of Pakistan’ shall have to be
defined. The member who had proposed the original amendment replied that the
‘Ideology of Pakistan was Islam’ …

 

Umair writes: “Indian Army invaded Kashmir back in 1947/48, this is a leftover dispute from the partition, Kashmir remained under Indian Army occupation all along. Groups like LeT are a relatively recent phenomenon. You simply cannot justify huge Indian Army presence in Kashmir.”

Umair,

I refer you to the following link regarding 1948 UN resolutions on Kashmir. Refer to Part II on it.

http://www.jammu-kashmir.com/documents/j kunresolution.html

It clearly asks for Pakistani army and militant withdrawal from all of Kashmir as a pre-condition for the plebiscite.

1. As the presence of troops of Pakistan in the territory of the State of Jammu and Kashmir constitutes a material change in the situation since it was represented by the Government of Pakistan before the Security Council, the Government of Pakistan agrees to withdraw its troops from that State.

2. The Government of Pakistan will use its best endeavour to secure the withdrawal from the State of Jammu and Kashmir of tribesmen and Pakistani nationals not normally resident therein who have entered the State for the purpose of fighting.

3. Pending a final solution, the territory evacuated by the Pakistani troops will be administered by the local authorities under the surveillance of the commission.

B.

1.When the commission shall have notified the Government of India that the tribesmen and Pakistani nationals referred to in Part II, A, 2, hereof have withdrawn, thereby terminating the situation which was represented by the Government of India to the Security Council as having occasioned the presence of Indian forces in the State of Jammu and Kashmir, and further, that the Pakistani forces are being withdrawn from the State of Jammu and Kashmir, the Government of India agrees to begin to withdraw the bulk of its forces from that State in stages to be agreed upon with the Commission.

2. Pending the acceptance of the conditions for a final settlement of the situation in the State of Jammu and Kashmir, the Indian Government will maintain within the lines existing at the moment of the cease-fire the minimum strength of its forces which in agreement with the commission are considered necessary to assist local authorities in the observance of law and order. The Commission will have observers stationed where it deems necessary.

3. The Government of India will undertake to ensure that the Government of the State of Jammu and Kashmir will take all measures within its powers to make it publicly known that peace, law and order will be safeguarded and that all human political rights will be granted.

4. Upon signature, the full text of the truce agreement or a communique containing the principles thereof as agreed upon between the two Governments and the Commission, will be made public.

Pakistan had no right to cede Aksai Chin to China in a disputed territory. Therefore in order to follow the UN resolutions by both parties, Pakistan must get Aksai Chin from China first, vacate all of Kashmir and it has to be verified to India’s satisfaction before further steps can be taken. So let us know what Pakistan’s plans of troop, tribesmen withdrawal and retrieving Aksai Chin. You wanted the UN resolution honored. You guys have been insisting on it. So start fulfilling the requirements and we should go from there. Or do you prefer the Simla accord of 1972, that made things a little easy for Pakistan? If so, then you cannot go back to 1948 resolution. Let me see what Pakistanis think about the resolution.

 

Umair,
India did not invade Kashmir, the Maharaja of Kashmir asked for help and acceded to India through an agreement and only then did the Indian Army move into Kashmir.
Its presence was minimal for the first 40 odd years. It was only when Pakistan sponsored militants enetered Kashmir that the army was called in as the police forces where not able to handle the growing insurgency.

It was the Pashtuns backed by Pakistani forces who invaded Kashmir because of which the maharaja asked for India’s help.

Again, as I have stated before, going by this logic Jihad against Pakistani forces is also justified. I am making this statement again, I don’t know when will you understand though, Indian forces in Kashmir are their to protect the people their for terrorists attacks and also to protect India’s sovereignity.

Maybe you will understand this only when Swat and NWFP becomes for you what Kashmir is for India. Here its muslim vs hindu divide there it will Pashtuns vs Punjabi divide.

Try and understand, nothing justifies terrorism. All differences can be sorted with negotiations. I just fail to understand how can you justify terrorism and killing of innocents on any grounds.

Posted by Aman | Report as abusive
 

Aman
I dont know what did I state that you got an impression I justified terrorism? Despite me, repeatedly denying, you seem to be stuck on one point. Surely terrorism is no way to go. I appreciated your honesty in admitting Kashmir as a dispute and talking about its solution. Last time in 2007 both India and Pakistan came close to its solution, lets hope next time we actually have an agreement/solution.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Mauryan, Rajeev,

If Pakistan is so sincere about fighting terrorism, at least it appears somewhat to want to show that image, at least for now, given the offensive against the Taliban, perhaps the Pak Army should also cleanse all of its JuD, Let and Hum Punjabi Terrorists.

I wonder how much we have to pay the PA to cleanup their instruments of foreign terror? Any Guesses? Umair?

The terrorist and friend of the the PA and ISI, Hafiz Saeed has a grand plan to not stop at Kashmir, he wants to steal Gujarat and conquer all of northern India. These nut jobs walk and talk freely in Pakistan.

Hafiz Muhammad Saeed himself headed the Lashkar-e-Toiba after the organization was founded in 1990, with the full backup of the notorious Pakistani Intelligence ISI.

According to Indian Intelligence sources Hafiz Muhammad Saeed masterminded and headed the INDIAN Parliament attack on 12/13/2001.

I ask why Umair, why is this terrorist man not permanently in jail? He will eventually start killing your Fauji’s on the streets of Pakistan.

Should Saeed and men like not be rid of sooner than later?

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive
 

Myra writes: “Seeking a civil, intelligent discussion with space for all sides of an argument is not bias. Those of you who see it as such are indeed on the wrong forum”

Myra,

Sorry. This was in the other blog. Since you shut the doors there, I am making my point here. By saying the above, you are indirectly acknowledging your support for the Mumbai attacks and other terrorist activities by Pakistan inside India’s borders. Like it or not, you are exhibiting strong anti-Indian bias. I have never seen you tell the Pakistanis when they crossed the line several times (Nukes, foul language and lies).

I am getting out of this forum altogether. I cannot stand Western bias which has led the world to disaster like we see today. And it starts at the people’s level and extends all the way up to those who run their governments and militaries.

You can happily mother Pakistanis from here on. I feel cheap to be treated like this by you and your bias.

 

@Myra,

I would like to reflect a similar sentiment to Mauryan. It is unfortunate that while you want to provide a forum to discuss both sides of the issue, you rarely venture into the realm of standing up for the right and just thing and often fall quite short of condemning terrorism caused by Pakistan.

Your focus is to discuss and discuss and discuss complexities, ancilliary details and such but you rarely seek to get to the heart of the matter of things and call things for what they are. In the spirit of being apolitical, we are impotently providing a forum, which at times tolerates those who are complicit and support terrorism.

Withing the context of western forums and apolitical people like yourself, Indians never receive even a verbal sense of justice, so all they can do is vent and re-hash history.

Western nations have been much too complicit with Pakistan to suit their own gains and interests.

With all of the internal problems that India has, India is still a technical, spiritual, economical, military powerhouse and a standing testament to democracy, in fact the largest one.

India is so underrated that it deserves much more credit and respect than it has been getting here.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive
 

Myra,

We often see a certain blogger spew a false account of history with regards to Pakistan’s role in 1965, 1971, Kargil and even Mumbai.

These lies, falsehoods, untrue statements often go unchallenged and do not so much as even receive a remittance of any sort from the person posting the blog. This blogger also posts attrocities the the Indian army has committed yet fails repeatedly to acknowledge that the Pakistani Army Genocided 2.5 million hinuds and 500,000 muslims.

You are also silent on that issue.

If you notice a lot of the India “clatter” is Indians trying to set the facts straight and rebutt that blogger for the false, pro-Islamic and provocatory things he posts and the complicity and tacit approval he gives of proxy armies and jihadists waging war on India.

India is a secular and democratic country with many peoples and religions, despite all its problems. Pakistan has problems miles above any Kashmir issue and the root causes of those things are rarely engaged as topics here.

Posted by G Lobal W atcher | Report as abusive
 

@They have managed to alienate the local Kashmiris. Most people there openly ask for freedom.
-by Mauryan

Mauryan: That means separatists must have lot of appeal and a majority would follow them. if they are so popular, why don’t they check this out by fighting rather than boycoting the elections. They are scared of the defeat. This is shown by heavy loss of Sajid lone a separatist who contested from Baramullah in Kashmir in these Loksabha Elections.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

@The UN peacekeeping observers/monitors and observe the LoC, and its only the UN that will decide if Pakistan is breaching the LoC and sending any terrorists. First, the UN will determine if there is any infiltration, if yes than it will ensure there are no terrorist camps infrastructure on Pakistani side.
- Posted by Umair

Umair: Hmmm……….Really did not know that it is possible to monitor LoC in that terrain by anyone unless they make a human chain.
Anyway, I am sorry to hear about the Lahore terrorist attacks and right under the nose of ISI. I wonder who they are: the Taliban or LeT or JeM. I ruling out RAW or ISI here. It is hard to know unless a terrorist is caught live as in Mumbai.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

Myra
“It would be interesting at some point to discuss what Jinnah planned for Pakistan,”

Myra: That discussion will get into the realm of poetry. Jinnah hardly survived to plan a a thing–nothing. Few statements are interpreted by different people differently. It is not worth it. But surely he got what he wished for–A nation for Muslims that is today’s Pakistan. He was wrong all the way on 2 nation theory. we have three countries now and Pakistan’s roguish ways are misguiding PAK into 4 more.

62Yrs shows that pakistan is not the product of a smart man. But Jinnah’s was smart man for what he achieved. I explain that by getting into poetry: Since Jinnah’s ancestors were converted to Islam, Jinnah was doing a great favor to non-Muslims and India by keeping those Muslims–who really wanted to be away from India–in Pakistan and India retain those Muslims, who think there is nothing wrong to co-exist with non-Muslims. So we got 2 equal number of populations thinking entirely differently.

If history is a trend for future, we know what we kind of Pakistan we are looking at and this might have happened to India. Who knows anywhere and who cares in pakistan what Jinnah thought. But as an Indian, thank you Mr. Jinnah for your creation.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

I am getting out of this forum altogether. I cannot stand Western bias which has led the world to disaster like we see today. And it starts at the people’s level and extends all the way up to those who run their governments and militaries.

You can happily mother Pakistanis from here on. I feel cheap to be treated like this by you and your bias.
- Posted by Mauryan

Muryan: STAY AND IGNORE. SMALL THING.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

@Umair,

India and the world stands by these cowardly acts of terrorism against Pakistan. Our heart and sentiments go out to the victims, their families and those injured.

Pakistan is a victim of terrorism, as is India. We hope those that those who planned, supported and executed those terrorist acts, be it the Taliban, JuD, LeT, HuM, or Al-Qaeda, that they be brought to justice and punished severely to the maximum extent possible.

On a second note, Indians stand by the Pakistani Soldiers on the ground and their families and children. Those soldiers must receive the highest respect and commendation for fighting Islamic Militantism are putting their life on the life everyday to make Pakistan a safer place.

The real war in Pakistan will come between the Pakistani Army on the Eastern border and between their proxy armies. It is in the interest of Pakistan to avoid a war with them and attack the LeT, JuD and HuM first and take them by surprise and eliminate them.

Peace and stability will come to Kashmir in time and the Indian Army can pull away from Indian Kashmir and leave Kashmir in a more settled state.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive
 

@If Pakistan is so sincere about fighting terrorism, at least it appears somewhat to want to show that image, at least for now, given the offensive against the Taliban, perhaps the Pak Army should also cleanse all of its JuD, Let and Hum Punjabi Terrorists.”
-by GW

GW: We knoW What it takes for PA to act. Taliban Was openly challenging pakistan govt/rule and still PA took no action against Taliban. It Was tripartite meeting in DC in May and the $$$$$ under consideration and congress asking questions about the right use of money that this anti-taliban action happened. While We have expressed some hope may be this is real action and not drama since over million IDP is a huge drama for the money and is good chance that anti-taliban fight is for real. But I personally see that there exosts heterogeneity inside Pakistan Army or ISI that Will make sure that anti-India stategic tool Taliban is not totally destroyed (big leaders Will never be caught alloWing later regrouping of Taliban but kept under tighter Pak control, a secret deal). Note one thing, all Afghans, who know the people in the religion and Taliban up close, sees this action by PA as a drama and Warn Indians that this should not be trusted as a real act. So wish for the best, but Wait and Watch. That’s What the US generals feel.

About Pak-supported terrorists like LeT/JeM and others like HuM, I do not see any pressure by US/NATO on Pak to act against these terrorists for their unofficial genius of a reason that these are not A-Q. For Whatever US says, US War is not over until this mess is cleared. There have been good reasons to believe that LeT has done anti-pak bombings terrorism and might be getting out of control of PA. So far since they do not pose threat as big as Taliban and no international pressure and PA perception that clearing LeTs and JeMs Will be taken by India as paki Weakness, I do not see this thing happening. It Will be more possible once India-pak get into bilateral talks and India demand directly. Some say first clear terrorists and then bilateral talks, my vieW currently is that start bilateral talks, but keep the anti-terrorist as #1 on the agenda.

@According to Indian Intelligence sources Hafiz Muhammad Saeed masterminded and headed the INDIAN Parliament attack on 12/13/2001.

GW: I think terrorist Hafiz Muhammad Saeed was part of HuM earlier, but post-Indian plane hijacking/kandhar release, formed JeM and became its chief. US has direct interest in him due to Daniel Pearl killing (actually by right hand man of saeed who also was released in the hijacking.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan has long been a hotspot of extremely deeply-rooted religious and cultural prejudices, only now it has come to the forefront and attention of the world in the form of “Islamic” “Jihad”. These Taliban roaming the valley of Swat must feel like Rambo, all-powerul etc. Their empty brains have been fed to long on Rambo-style films, and their guilty consciences in not being “good enough Muslims” (due to their repressed desires such as film-watching, which they feel goes against whatever “faith” they claim to follow) have forced them to retreat into an even more primitive style of life than their own parents must have lived. The muslim world’s biggest dilemma is how to bring their barbaric real selves (ie. cultures and customs specifically and cleverly tailored to repressed lifestyle caused by lack of adequate work ethic stemming from love of remaining in ignorance because that means less work to do in life- including brain work – resulting in dire poverty and victim syndrome) in line with what is morally good and right (read: religion – any religion for that matter). In order to HUMANIZE the Muslim world, it is not necessary to DEMONIZE it, but to threaten to ELIMINATE it. Just threaten, because there are lots of good muslims out there who are not Taliban at all, but are still not good enough as morally sound human beings, because their grounding in the primitive, superstitious, repressive and oppressive is so strong it envelops ALL Muslims, regardless of good or evil. You CANNOT deny that the Taliban are Muslims. It doesn’t matter what the moderates say, that Islam doesn’t allow that kind of monster at all. The fact remains that 100% of the world’s Muslims do not practise Islam, the religion. They merely practise Islam, the cultural appendage, or Islam, the because-I-live-here-and-was-raised-here convenience pak. There is no Islam, The Religion as anyone knows it. It lived and died with Mohammed SAW/PBUH. The minute he was dead and buried, Islam CHANGED. Because it changed owners, custodians, what you will. So, it took on the personalities and idiosyncracies of not just one original owner – the last prophet, SAW/PBUH – but also that of the future followers, and kept evolving and changing and transmuting and transforming and warping with each and every new adherent, who saw in it something new and magical to claim as his/her own, just like a diamond changes its sparkle with each turn. No sparkle is ever the same as the very first one. And because it was the very first sparkle that caught his eye, any good miner will tell you that no other sparkle that comes after can ever match the very first one. Islam is that diamond in the rough that Muhammed SAW/PBUH saw, sparkle and all. Since then, it’s been polished by a lot of well-placed Khalifas, leaders and other diamond cutters – after all not everyone can work with diamonds, otherwise who will fawn at them and who buy them and who will wear them? – and worn in a lot of settings that the Khalifas, saints, walis, sufis and whatnots made – because they could, being in the special diamond-doing business – and because once a gem is set in a setting, it’s sparkle is generally within the same range of vision that that gem’s setter envisioned, and the wearer has no choice but to wear it as-is, or get it custom-made all over again, depending on the wearer’s resources – hence the moderates with better education will endeavor to customize the various settings to their preferences, leaving the destitute with just the as-is stuff – so the sparkle – and the practice of Islam, the once-Religion and now cultural commodity – changes. With every new follower the faith changes, like the ocean, heaving and hawing, flowing in and out to accommodate as needed. There is no SET STANDARD, no SET PRACTISE, no SET readymade-blame-taker-on-like-an-honest- scapegoat in Islam. There is no Vatican to look after the tiny details, while everyone vacations from Christianity. After all, who really ever “reads” the Bible, even those who do read it? Only the original owner really read it, and then too, with his own special sparkle. Peter, Paul et al then continued in change it. We are not all Peters and Pauls, but we are their goats certainly. To cure extremism, you need to cure people of the pretense of practicing religion. You need to stop creation.

Posted by Ummi Khatoon | Report as abusive
 

terrible to see Pak people getting massacred by terrorists in Lahore and Peshawar etc., sorry for the deaths of law enforcement officials.

hope it will stop at once

 

Ummi Khatoon

“The muslim world’s biggest dilemma is how to bring their barbaric real selves (ie. cultures and customs specifically and cleverly tailored to repressed lifestyle caused by lack of adequate work ethic stemming from love of remaining in ignorance because that means less work to do in life- including brain work – resulting in dire poverty and victim syndrome) in line with what is morally good and right”

-hmmm, so are the entire muslims real barbarics? You seem to have some serious problems.

” In order to HUMANIZE the Muslim world, it is not necessary to DEMONIZE it, but to threaten to ELIMINATE it.”

-hey who ever are you,keep in mind Muslims are much more humane than many others.Can you compare the violent robberies, crime, car jackings etc between Jeddah and Johannesburg for example? I have seen bit of both worlds, the muslim and non-muslim, I know who is humane and to what extent.

“100% of the world’s Muslims do not practise Islam”
” There is no Islam, The Religion as anyone knows it. It lived and died with Mohammed SAW/PBUH.”

NO MADAM ISLAM IS ALIVE
-many others do practice Islam in their daily lives in the six continents of the world. The call of Prayer, Azan is the most heard call around the world. On planet earth there is no single minute when the call for prayer is not being heard. Every day in dawn ‘Azan’ or call for prayer starts from the Islands of Southern Indonesia, carries on from Sumatra to Malaya. After one hour this practice reaches Dhaka in Bangladesh, to Calcutta Sri Lanka, and Mumbai. India resonates with the voice of Allah O Akbar. Sri Nagar in Kashmir and Sialkot in Pakistan have similar time for Morning Fajr prayer. Than from Karachi to Gwadar in Pakistan, call of prayer is made. This takes place for 40 minutes, at the same time Afghanistan Muscat, Oman call of prayer is heard, after an hour this practice starts in Baghdad, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, UAE, Kuwait. The distance to Alexandria is one hour, Syria, Egypt, Somalia and Sudan prepare for prayers, including Istanbul Turkey. From Alexandria to Tripoli,Libya in an hour’s time Azan starts including in North America Libya Tunisia. This way the call of prayer has travelled 9.5 hours from Indonesia to this far and at that particular moment it is already time for day ‘Zuhr’-day prayer in Indonesia and the entire practice starts again. Million of muslims bow before Allah five times a day, yes we need to keep our duty to Allah and say our 5 times Salah-prayer regularly with devotion. Islam is preserved, Islam never changed, our small children have recited and memorised Holy Quran, every single word is preserved as it is. You will find a Mosque where everyou are, Johannesburg or Dublin it doesnt matter. I can tell you Islam is alive, that is why this world is carrying on. The day there are no muslims every thing will fall apart and there will be the end, we will see the day of judgement.

Ummi Khatoon, I am a sunni muslim and a Pakistani, i think you are a Qadiyani-Ahmedi sect person. But I am not sure, I have my reservations on what you stated. You also seem to know little about my country, Pakistan has this Taliban problem due to Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan in 1979 and resulting super power intervention in the region. Why are you trying to attack and defame Islam?

Who ever u r, my message is Islam is alive. and I mean the real Islam, the one which you think is dead, that very Islam is alive and well.

You have launched a major attack on Islam on this blog, and this blog is about Pakistan, not religion. You are better off not starting any smear campaign against Islam over here.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

@Umair,

All religions have to be able to take frank questions from people of other denominations.

We can disagree with them, but to casually call any tough questions as smear campaigns just display’s one’s own insecurities and weaknesses.

All religions should be able to open themselves to healthy debate to debunk stereotypes and misinformation.

In this modern world, we are all intelligent people, we have the right to question and get answers, those answers which are difficult to answer, should not necessitate an angry response or seeing things as a smear campaign.

The problem is not religion itself, but the politics of religion mixed with cultural customs and tribal customs.

Any follower of any faith must and should be able to field difficult questions and not consider their position so weak that they must respond negatively.

But to add to that, hate, injustice or inequality against any religion should not be tolerated in this modern world.

All religions are equal.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive
 

Islam is tolerant and Muslims can listen to difficult questions and criticism and answer those questions.
However, maligning Islam or trying to say that Islam has died and Muslims cannot stand for Islam is very incorrect.

We saw in Europe when media printed cartoons against Muslims and made objectionable films against Muslims. We saw Muslims across the world stood up to it, Muslims have the power to defend their faith and will always do it. Now i don’t mean to resort to violence, it can be done through peaceful means, through media as well. I will not state any more than this, I have already diverted from the topic.
Once again, Both Islam and Muslims are alive and ready to stand for Islam and let others know what Islam stands for.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

As expected, the Indians on this blog turned a thread about Pakistan into a fake discussion about Islam , posing insults and smears as arguments.

The only folk who have declared that Pakistan is near-death is the international media, which thrives on conflict and some alarmist bureaucrats/politicians in the West, who need something from Pakistan. Otherwise the country is going through a difficult time, but is not going to end.

 
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