How much time does Pakistan have?

May 20, 2009

Ahmed Rashid’s article on Pakistan in the New York Review of Books makes for an alarming read.  Excerpts do not do justice to it,  as you have to read the whole thing to understand why he thinks Pakistan really is on the brink, but here are a few:

“American officials are in a concealed state of panic, as I observed during a recent visit to Washington at the time when 17,000 additional troops were being dispatched to Afghanistan. The Obama administration unveiled its new Afghan strategy on March 27, only to discover that Pakistan is the much larger security challenge, while US options there are far more limited.”

“The last two years have bought some hope in the growth of the middle class, an articulate and increasingly influential civil society made up partly of urban professionals and publicly involved women. Most Pakistanis are not Islamic extremists and believe in moderate and spiritual forms of Islam, including Sufism. However, Pakistan is now reaching a tipping point. There is a chronic failure of leadership, whether by civilian politicians or the army. President Zardari’s decision to invade Swat in early May came only after pressure was applied by the Obama administration and the army and the government had been left with no other palatable options. But with the Taliban opening new fronts, it will soon become impossible for the army to respond to the multiple threats it faces on so many geographically distant battlefields. The Taliban’s campaigns to assassinate politicians and administrators have demoralized the government.”

“The Obama administration can provide money and weapons but it cannot recreate the state’s will to resist the Taliban and pursue more effective policies. Pakistan desperately needs international aid, but its leaders must first define a strategy that demonstrates to its own people and other nations that it is willing to stand up to the Taliban and show the country a way forward.”

There has been much alarmist talk this year about Pakistan, notably with U.S. adviser David Kilcullen saying in March that the Pakistani state could collapse within six months, followed by Secretary of State Hillary Clinton saying in April that Pakistan posed a “mortal threat” to the world. Most of that talk has been dismissed as exaggerated, including by Juan Cole in his blog Informed Comment and other analysts. The country has a strong civil society, which only in March took to the streets to demand an independent judiciary and the reinstatement of the Chief Justice. It has a powerful military, and whatever its critics say about its policies, the Pakistan Army is intensely patriotic and is hardly likely to hand over control of the country to Islamist militants who do not even believe in the existence of the nation state. 

Yet looking at the flood of refugees in Pakistan — above one million and still rising, according to the UNHCR — you do have to wonder how much time Pakistan has to right itself.  President Asif Ali Zardari says the current offensive in the Swat valley is just the start of an operation that will take the army  deep into the tribal areas bordering Afghanistan.  How many more internal refugees can the country cope with, especially given that it traces its current instability to the three million refugees who flooded in from Afghanistan after the Soviet invasion in 1979?

Part of the problem is that some of the solutions for Pakistan lie in the long term.  To the west, an end to the fighting in Afghanistan would stop instability washing over into Pakistan. But no one expects a political settlement in Afghanistan any time soon. To the east, peace with India would boost the economy by encouraging trade and give the Pakistan Army an opportunity to readjust its mindset away from seeing India as an existential threat. But India remains wary of Pakistan after last November’s attack on Mumbai and any moves made by the newly re-elected government of Prime Minister Manmohan Singh to reduce tension are likely to be slow and tentative.

If Pakistan is indeed, as Rashid writes, reaching a tipping point, it does not have the time to wait for long-term solutions.

(Photos: Refugees caught up in a dust storm/Faisal Mahmood)

Comments

Wondering if Pakistan will allow none other than…India to step in and come to its aid? Wondering if India would offer? Will India and Pakistan shock the world and come to terms with eachother via a grand bargain?

The world turns on a dime…

Posted by Alethia | Report as abusive
 

Myra,

Pakistan is not a failed state and it’s not going to fail. At best, it can be called a ‘rogue’ state which is now realizing it has more mess – most of its own doing – than initially expected.

Interestingly, the Pakistani establishment wants $1.5 billion for next five years from the US but not the conditions attached by the Congress to it. The economic condition in donor countries is tight and there will be some delay in honoring commitments.

Posted by Nikhil | Report as abusive
 

One can never say how things will go. There is a strong potential for fissures to erupt from various points and engulfing the whole state or critical parts of it. Or things can change for good. There must be a reason why Pakistan is cranking up its nuclear weapons grade enrichment. Pakistan cannot and should not try to stop its initiative until it is complete. It has to eliminate the Taliban for good, whatever may be the loss of lives and resources. There is no looking back. If they fail to do so and allow the Taliban to escape or leave some for regrouping, it will bite them hard. Pashtuns who make up the Taliban generally do not forgive and now Pakistanis have become an enemy to them. So they might as well go all out and wipe off the Taliban entirely.

I feel really sorry for those million refugees who have been displaced from their homes and are bearing the brunt of the war and the weather. I pray for their well being.

 

I really feel sorry for Innocent Pakistani people who are suffering lot. Whatever other people say but they have to handle it. Let all people unit together and kill the disease ( terror ) from the beautifull place SWAT.

Posted by animesh | Report as abusive
 

Pakistanis keep insisting that Taliban-style fundamentalism can’t move beyond the tribal areas and into the big cities.

Uhhh, does anyone remember the Red Mosque siege, which triggered a mini-war in Islamabad? Afterwards, stunned Pakistanis were asking themselves how those people could have smuggled so many heavy arms into the Red Mosque.

Let’s stop playing a game of spin-doctoring and damage control, and rather see the problem for the dire situation it is. Trying to downplay the threat will only encourage the complacency that has allowed the problem to become so severe.

Posted by Sanjay | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan has lost a golden chance of improving relations with india after the mumbai attacks , by punishing the culprits . They threw that away . I suspect the civilian government might have done more , but the army held it back . Now i dont think india should touch pakistan even with a 60 foot pole . Let them try and put their own house in order . A destabilized pakistan is in indias interest . It is good for india if they are busy fighting amongst themselves .

Posted by Gill | Report as abusive
 

Personally I think all this talk of Pakistan collapsing etc is as much hype as the dooms day predictions over swine flu.

Pakistani leadership is the predominant cause. One can run with the hare and hunt with the hound only so long. Though it has had its fair share of problems about type of governance, the root cause, in my opinion is the absence of leadership which has a global and far sighted approach. There seem to be no long term goals or planning. If there is, it has never been shared with its people let alone the world.

The other problem is its India phobia. Its time to move on, just as India did inits approach to Pakistan. Good governance is not about playing one upmanship. The man in the street is becoming more and more conscious of his rights and aspirations and is no longer going to fall prey to martial music, jingoism and bombast.

So though I think Pakistan is not about to turn turtle just yet, it is going to witness prolonged upheaval in the absence of a firm, dedicated and far sighted leadership.

 

US aid to Pakistan financing Chinese military! Feel sorry for US tax payers, homeless, job less folks!

China pushes J-10A fighter for export to Pakistan, Egypt

http://www.upi.com/Security_Industry/200 9/05/19/China-pushes-J-10A-fighter-for-e xport-to-Pakistan-Egypt/UPI-165212427487 80/

Posted by David | Report as abusive
 

Alethia
About your desire and hope for Indias benevolent intervention- what do you mean India coming to Paks rescue? very intriguing indeed. Explain . India doesn’t hate Pak minus terror and proxy war. Forget rhetoric tell us what it should do now.
I saw your posts on Pak blogs as well. You sympathize with Paks a lot, may be you interact with them more than with Indians. You ought to identify underlying problems with Pak also. Religious hatred and narrow mindedness at national level is the source of problem in my view.
Myra,
Pak will have this internal turmoil and civil unrest for a longtime. It has everything to do with the religious hatred with which their school children are brain washed. Impending collapse and Taliban take over is a myth. Feel sad for swat and Tamil refugees.

 

Dara:

I agree with you in that it’s going to take a while for good governance to set in in Pakistan. And as the adage goes: it’s better to have an inferior civilian government than an excellent military one. At least there is hope that democracy will eventually work out the kinks. It took India several years to evolve into a dedicated and far sighted leadership. It will take no less in Pakistan.

Posted by Alethia | Report as abusive
 

If the question is, “How much time does Pakistan have?” The answer is, “that depends.” Pakistan is already in turmoil. It’s a basketcase which no sane tourist would visit and no sane financier would invest in. Yet, its Pakistanis first and foremost who are paying the price for their government’s incompetence. Pakistan is already a perpetually failing state. Yet, it will never become a failed state. So Pakistan has plenty of time before it becomes Somalia or Afghanistan. But if the aspirations of Pakistanis are any higher than that (for example if it wanted to compete economically with India for example or aspired to be the Switzerland of South Asia) it has already run out of time. It will take decades for Pakistan to recover from the current turmoil…and the rebuilding can only start when the turmoil ends. I am afraid Pakistan is in for a rough ride, the very end of which might see the end of Pakistan as we know it today.

Sorry Myra. There are some days I am pessimistic about Pakistan and it’s prospects….sadly the frequency of those days is increasing!

Posted by Keith | Report as abusive
 

It took India several years to evolve into a dedicated and far sighted leadership. It will take no less in Pakistan.

- Posted by Alethia

Dehyphenate please. The two formed separate nations same day from (prepartion) United India.Just Over 6 decades ago.

Im waiting for your an explanation on your expressed views on India coming into Paks rescue.

 

The biggest problem with Pakistan is the Army which is corrupt, consumes a lot of the resources that could go into things like education. The Army has supported religious parties and terrorist organizations to further their hold on the country and destabilize neighboring countries. The politicians that have come to power are as corrupt and kow tow to the Army. I dont see any hope for the country till the Army’s power is diminished and Pakistan gets new less corrupt politicians.

Posted by V. T. Abraham | Report as abusive
 

Much of the problems Pakistan today face are a direct result of outside intervention in the region. Hillary Clinton yesterday acknolwledged the ‘incoherent’ US policies towards Pakistan for the last 30 years. The Soviet intervention in Afghanistan and resulting US involvement over a prolonged period of time proved very disastotours. As of Pakista’s future, there should remain no doubts. Pakistan, a developing country and having its share of problems like any other country, is fully capable of dealing with challenges.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan wants to buy $1 billion German Sub to fight Taliban?

Pakistan’s humanitarian crisis to last through December: US

Seems like Pakistan doesn’t care or doesn’t want to help the displaced people. Not Pakistan’s problem. US, UN and FoDP will feed and shelter these people. Pakistani generals are busy planning their toy list and next war with India. What a waste of aid money!

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/Repo rt-German-Submarine-Deal-With-Pakistan-o n-Hold-05432/

Posted by David | Report as abusive
 

So Pakistan’s ambassador was probably addressing English-speaking Pakistanis as well as Americans when he assured Mr. Stewart on Wednesday that “the important thing is that Pakistan does control most of Pakistan.” After dismissing the Taliban as “a nuisance,” he then went on to explain who was to blame for the fact that Pakistan does not now control all of Pakistan: Ronald Reagan. Near the start of the interview (which is embedded below), Mr. Haqqani said:

What we are dealing with is a lot of debris from the past. Ronald Reagan thought that the mujahideen in Afghanistan were going to be the moral equivalent of America’s founding fathers. The Taliban are just the children of those moral equivalents, which have become a problem not only for Pakistan and Afghanistan but the whole world.
http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/05  /14/pakistans-daily-show-diplomacy/?scp =3&sq=Pakistan%20&st=cse

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan’s internal problems can be traced to the inherent contradiction of its troubled foundation. In 1947, Pakistan was carved from British India on account that Muslims cannot accept the rule of the numerically superior Hindus. This irrationality stem from Islam’s traditional characterization of Hindus as dirty polytheists and idol worshippers even more lowly than Jews and Christians, who were at least considered “People of the Book.” Pakistan declared itself to be an “Islamic State,” and from that point onwards, it has behaved in a confrontational and hostile manner towards its neighbor.

The trouble for Pakistan is that an Islamic state is fundamentally anti-democratic. You can have one or the other, but you cannot have both. Democracy is based upon reason, religion is based on dogma. Democracy places high value on separation between religion and state, moderation, tolerance, diversity and plurality. Religion calls for blind faith, and the imposition of such outdated ideas as women being inferior to men, the non-believer being inferior to the believer. Thus, whereas India has continually existed as a stable democracy, Pakistan has been caught in a vicious, endless cycle of corrupt pseudo-democracies to military dictatorships.

India has an unabashedly secular constitution where minorities have full protection of the law. The current Prime Minister of India is a Sikh, while the last President of India was a Muslim. India is a pluralist and tolerant state with much greater similarity to the west than its former brethens in Pakistan. Demographically speaking, more than 15% of India belong to religious minorities. In Pakistan, this number is only 3%, despite the fact that prior to partition, the province of Punjab comprised of as many as 20 to 25% Hindus and Sikhs. Many of these minorities were forced to migrate to India at the partition. Even more tragically, the flight of Hindus, Sikhs and Christians continue today as they have been subjects of targeted violence.
Actually, the comparison between India and Pakistan today is beginning to mirror that between North and South Korea. In both instances, a former united entity was split into two ideological parts. Initially, both parts shared roughly the same standard of living. Due to different decisions taken by each part, one has emerged as a successful modern state, the other a failure and a constant threat to world security. In the case of Korea, the difference was between capitalist democracy versus communist totalitarianism, and in former British India, the difference is between secular democracy versus Islamic totalitarianism. In each instant, the tolerate, moderate party is the winner while the hateful party is the loser.

I don’t see how Pakistan can emerge from its current impasse unless the fundamental character of the state changes. Pakistan has to embrace modernity. It has to completely reject the notion that it is an Islamic state, and embrace the ideas of plurality, gender equality, religious tolerance, and peace with its neighbor India. Unfortunately, it appears the forces promoting greater secularism are losing the battle against the voices calling for more Islam. More Islam means less education for women. It also means more radicalism in the long term, as educated women empowered by jobs are a moderating force in developed societies. Uneducated women are more likely to be confined in the home, subject to the whims of her husband, have multiple children without the means to take proper care of them, causing even more civil strife. Hence, Pakistan is lurching dangerously backward with no end in sight. The phenomenon of Islamization, unfortunately, is not only pertinent to Pakistan, but with few exceptions, the entire Islamic world, especially the countries in the Middle East.

Posted by Robert, Auckland, New Zealand | Report as abusive
 

It’s Rwanda now, not Somalia!

Yesterday, CNN (AC360) was comparing Pakistan to Rwanda. Somalians must be feeling better now!

Today, BBC reports about the amazing success of Pakistani army in Buner. Taliban still owns SWAT. I am proud of Pakistani army (don’t forget, it is the seventh largest military in the world and got nukes!)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/80 59236.stm

Posted by David | Report as abusive
 

I want to cry out loud when I see the displaced Pakistanis.

But when I want to laugh out loud when I see this joker or his alikes on TV, extorting US!

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/05  /14/pakistans-daily-show-diplomacy/?scp =3&sq=Pakistan%20&st=cse

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/bestoft v/2009/05/15/gps.musharraf.war.money.cnn  ?iref=videosearch

Posted by David | Report as abusive
 

If Pakistan’s internal war with the Taliban prolongs over 6 months, then it does not have much chance or time to survive as a nation. It depends upon how quickly their military executes the task of eliminating the Taliban. And the Taliban has its sympathizers in Pakistan’s intelligence, military and civilian establishments as well as amongst non-state actors. So many might have escaped into the hinterlands of Pakistan. Taliban’s strategy of war is to duck when attacked, thereby giving a false indication of a defeated group. Once the dust settles, they begin to attack specific targets and cause continuous irritation. Karachi might be the next place where they will take the battle to. Quetta might be another place. No one wants to take defeat. Revenge is always planned and attempts made to execute it. Taliban definitely will lose out to the Pakistani military in the short run with their territory lost. But they will avenge that by not letting the refugees return home and making the refugee crisis get out of control. And they will attack in other parts of the country in collusion with the other jihadist groups. Their attempt will be to isolate the Pashtuns and Balochis from the mainstream Pakistan, now that their back is to the wall. And Al Qaeda, for its own survival might get back into the game and wreak havoc. What I foresee is Pashtun defection from Pakistan’s military at the first sign of weakness. They are just waiting for that moment. The US and its allies can give intelligence information to the ISI to thwart such plans. But so long as the ISI has elements sympathetic to the Taliban, things will begin to get out of control. So whatever victory that the military and Zardari declare will be short lived. The war began in 2001. And it is only seeing the battle field expand. And this war will go on until Pakistan is completely eaten up by it. The damage will be enormous. Pakistani military might try a desperate war with India or provide nuclear material to Iran to escalate the war beyond their borders. This way they know they are going to burn. But they could try to take others with it and make it really hard for the US to do anything. The US will not dare venture into a war with Pakistan. Or Pakistani military has realized that their nuke facilities are going to be forcibly destroyed by the US at some point and hence they are speeding up production of fissile material. Whatever it may be, 2009 is not going to be good for Pakistan as I see it. And it is going to get only worse beyond that.

 

Under the capable leadership of Manmohan Singh,I think India is positioning itself to have a historic reonciliation with Pakistan. Yes, the religious hatred of the fundamentalists in Pakistan is very vexing, is spreading to the local population and must be brought under control. Yes, the current government of Pakistan is a bit wobbly, but it’s a democracy-with cooperation between it and the army, something unheard of in the past. But an important reminder must be stated: the Frontier Province was always problematic for NorthWest India (now Pakistan). It is not a new phenomenon. Through the centuries invaders and militants have been constantly sweeping from Central Asia onto the Subcontinent. And it’s no different today as the core of al Qaeda is comprised of people from as far away as Chechnya and as proximal as Uzbekistan. A second reminder is that India would like to have the Subcontinent for Subcontinental countries. Even if that means accomodating Pakistan on some points and no doubt India will ask for its own accomodations from Pakistan. Ideally, India would like to dominate, but it will compromise in order to keep foreign forces out.

I believe that there may be some motivation in India to ensure the independence of the region, whichever countries we are talking about, from the forces which are not indigenous to the region.

Posted by Alethia | Report as abusive
 

David
“Pakistani generals are busy planning their toy list and next war with India.”

-Officially India is enemy no.1 and anaylst are predicting there is a very real chance of of another 26/11 type terrorist strike on India. I am sure Pakistan’s military planners want to deploy every radar, fighter jet, tank and submarine in its place before hostilities begin. And the siezed composite dialogue and prevailing tense atmosphere for last 8 months between India and Pakistan is very evident. You must also know Pakistan is rapidly adding nuclear weapons to the already 60-100 warheads, so both nuclear and conventional capability is being enhanced as the threat increases. You dont even know what you are playing with.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Mauryan:
“If Pakistan’s internal war with the Taliban prolongs over 6 months, then it does not have much chance or time to survive as a nation.”

-O forget it, more scare mongering. So who the hell are you? some self proclaimed fortune teller? I heard from people 6 months before that Pakistan will not survive, I hear again the same thing. lol
read the following stated by Gen, Ashfaq Kayani:
April 24, 2009
ISPR Press Release
“Army chief Gen. Kayani stated that 170 million people under a democratic dispensation, fully backed by the Army are capable of dealing with evey challenge. He renounced the outside powers and the questions being raised about the country’s future.”

So I am glad your positive outlook for atleast 2009, but would also like you to take it easy 2010, 2011, 2025, 2050 Pakistan’s ability of dealing with challenges have kept increasing with the passage of time. :)

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Umair:

I agree with you. The toughness of Pakistan is constantly underestimated.

Posted by Alethia | Report as abusive
 

NO satellites please! We are Pakistanis! We like to hide things but we didn’t pay enough to Chinese to teach us how to hide things!

So please believe us when we say, whatever we say. We are allies and partners.

http://pakobserver.net/200905/19/news/to pstories07.asp

Posted by David | Report as abusive
 

“It’s Rwanda now, not Somalia!

Yesterday, CNN (AC360) was comparing Pakistan to Rwanda. Somalians must be feeling better now!”

My sincere apologies to people of Rwanda and Somalia. I didn’t mean to disparage your country.

Posted by David | Report as abusive
 

-Officially India is enemy no.1 and anaylst are predicting there is a very real chance of of another 26/11 type terrorist strike on India…..
- Posted by Umair

Your comments are really quite hilarious. Other countries have official emblems & seals but I guess your country has ‘official enemies’. You actually reflect the belligerent mindset of your army officers & generals. I’m sure at this time, all you guys are actually hoping for a 26/11 encore, so that India responds & you guys can stop slitting each others throats & rally behind ‘death to India slogans’. You, immaturely, don’t realize the consequences for your faltering country which is already going down the toilet in a mad rush. And yeah I know, this is where you’ll say ‘we have nukes’. Don’t worry my friend, the world is just itching to take control of your nukes & sooner or later you’ll have to take the bumper sticker which says ‘We have Nukes’ off your head. Your quote of your General Kayani is also quite funny. I guess everyone in Pakistan, from a 5 yr old to a General, parrot the same blabber…170 million united…700,000 strong army…caution to outside forces blah blah blah. Now we know where you get it from. Lmao!

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive
 

Mortal
Here is the complete statement, let me know the funny part:
———————————————————
No 104/2009-ISPR Dated: April 24, 2009

Rawalpindi – April 24, 2009: The Chief of Army Staff (COAS), General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani today chaired an operational meeting at the General Headquarters, Rawalpindi.
While addressing the participants the COAS stated that he was aware of the doubts being voiced about the intent as well as the capability of the Army to defeat the militancy in the Country. He made it clear that Pakistan Army never has and never will hesitate to sacrifice, whatever it may take, to ensure safety and wellbeing of people of Pakistan and Country’s territorial integrity.
The COAS stated that operational pause, meant to give the reconciliatory forces a chance, must not be taken for a concession to the militants. He declared that Army’s rank and file has resolve to fight to eliminate the militants, who endanger the lives of peaceful citizens of the Country and challenge the writ of the State. He reassured the people of Pakistan that with their support, Army is determined to root out the menace of terrorism from the society. It will not allow the militants to dictate terms to the Government or impose their way of life on the civil society of Pakistan.
He condemned pronouncements by outside powers raising doubts on the future of the Country. A Country of 170 M resilient people under a democratic dispensation, strongly supported by the Army, is capable of handling any crisis that it may confront. He stated that the victory against the terror and militancy will be achieved at all cost.
The COAS praised the rank and file for continuing to fight under challenging and arduous conditions. Praying for the souls of Shaheeds of Armed forces, Civilian Law Enforcement Agencies and civilians, the COAS assured the bereaved families and the Nation that the debt of their sacred blood will be paid back by the Army, and safety of the people and the Country ensured at all costs.
http://www.ispr.gov.pk/front/main.asp?o= t-press_release&date=2009/4/24
———————————————————-

As we speak many officers and men are laying their lives for Pakistan in the ongoing military operation. And that is no fun, As a Pakistani no one would like to see Pakistan descending into chaos, but tell you one thing the most immediate consequences will be felt by India. if millitant elements ever get their hands on nukes, the first target they would strike and test it would be India. So dont dance when your neighbour’s house burns, your backyard will soon catch fire and engulf the entire house. We are in this together, if we go down we all go down. In hindi it goes like this “hum tu dube hein sanam, tujk ko bhi le dube gae”. So what I mean to say is, we are doing what we need to do right. You do your part and just shut up atleast because nothing good is expected out of you double faced Indians. Atleast you could just shut up and dont create distractions.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Yesterday, CNN (AC360) was comparing Pakistan to Rwanda. Somalians must be feeling better now!” My sincere apologies to people of Rwanda and Somalia. I didn’t mean to disparage your country.
- Posted by David

Actually, Pakistan qualifies for it’s very own exclusive category because not only is it a ‘Failed State’ but it is also the ‘Most Dangerous country’ & a ‘Rogue Nation’. Failed states have internal problems & instability whereas Pakistan also poses a threat to the entire world.

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive
 

“but tell you one thing the most immediate consequences will be felt by India. if millitant elements ever get their hands on nukes, the first target they would strike and test it would be India” – Posted by Umair

Lmao. This is exactly what I was expecting from you “We have nukes”. Earlier you said that India was Pakistan’s ‘official enemy’ & now you say that extremists will nuke India. As far as India is concerned, there’s no difference between the Pakistani army & the extremists & your comments prove that they indeed are the same. Whenever you lose an argument (which is almost always), all you do is, childishly bark about your nukes. I’m not even going to get into the consequences of a nuclear strike because it’ll be moronic to comment on fictional hypotheticals. But I can tell you that there’s a very strong possibility that before your nukes ever see the light of day, they’ll be either destroyed or out of the control your pathetic establishment.

As far as the ‘two-faced nature’ is concerned, the whole world knows which country is the two-faced, untrustworthy & double-crossing nation in the world & that’s exactly why your country is being shunned by everyone, including your ‘friends’, who are rapidly distancing themselves from you. And, as much as you want us to, we won’t shut up. We will keep exposing Pakistan’s real face in front of the world & guess what, the world seems to be buying it.

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive
 

Mortal
Dont shut up, keep barking because thats what dogs do. Yes Pakistan has been betrayed by so called friends, but we are like cornered tigers and will fight back. Lets wait for that much anticipated spectacular terrorist strike on India and see if you b*stards have the balls to attack Pakistan. Than see what this rogue, failed and chaotic state does to your mighty India. Your arrogance will make you lick dust one day, and remember we still havent settled the scores of 1971.
Didnt you try Pakistan’s diplomatic isolation after the Mumbai attacks? and Washington DC is not that far from New York, we all know our ambassador Hussain Haqqani and how capable is he in presenting Pakistan to the outside world. He has worked for New York times and is a lecturer in Boston University.
I saw on CNN IBN how your news anchor was lynched by ambassador to London Wajid Shamsul hassan during an interview when undiplomatic language was used and the ambassador was tried to be provoked, I would love to post oyu the You tube link. Pakistan has its diplomatic channels and uses them wisely. You Indians have always tried tricks with the outside world, but for now they dont seem to buy your nonsense.

By the way, Hillary Clinton just said that yesterday:”The situation in pakistan is due to incoherent US policies for the last 30 years towards that country”. Did you listen that?

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Mortal:
” Whenever you lose an argument (which is almost always), all you do is, childishly bark about your nukes. ”

-Pakistan: No Compromise on Arsenal

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/19/world/ asia/19briefs-Nukes.html?_r=1&scp=4&sq=P akistan%20&st=cse

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: May 18, 2009
Pakistani officials responded Monday to an assertion by the top United States military officer that the country was expanding its nuclear arsenal. At a Congressional panel last week, Adm. Mike Mullen, left, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said yes when asked whether there was evidence that Pakistan was adding to its nuclear weapons systems and warheads. On Monday, Pakistan’s information minister, Qamar Zaman Kaira, said: “Pakistan does not need to expand its nuclear arsenal, but we want to make it clear that we will maintain a minimum nuclear deterrence that is essential for our defense and stability.”

In comments at a forum in Los Angeles, the Central Intelligence Agency director, Leon E. Panetta, said that the United States did not know the location of all of Pakistan’s nuclear weapons, but he was confident that there were “pretty secure” measures to keep them out of the hands of terrorists.
———————————————————-
I sometime laugh at the innocense of you Indians, even the US with all its satellite tech and intelligence doesnt know where the Pakistani nukes are, and you Indians always think the world will snatch pakistan’s nukes, even if that doesnt happen, those nukes will never set off since they are made in china.
Boys you dont know the Made in pakistan brand nuclear bombs are most affective and lethal. And also, its not we who always rant we have nukes, ask the whole world and they state Pakistan has got 60-100 nuclear warheads.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Umair,

Pakistani journalist Ahmed Rashid says about Pakistani army:
“The Pakistani army, however, was promptly defeated and a vicious cycle ensued. After every setback, the army signed peace agreements with the Pakistani Taliban that allowed them to consolidate their grip on FATA”

Is this true? Did Pakistani army ever win anything?

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/22730

Posted by Rabbit | Report as abusive
 

Alethia writes: “I believe that there may be some motivation in India to ensure the independence of the region, whichever countries we are talking about, from the forces which are not indigenous to the region.”

For independence in the region, Pakistan will have to give up its reliance of India’s nemesis – China. India is surrounded by countries in which China is encouraging anti-Indian activities – Burma, Nepal and of course Pakistan. India’s North East has been on insurgency attacks for a long time. India’s main security concern is not Pakistan, but China. But China is using Pakistan’s antagonism towards India to its advantage. They are building a port at Gawadar. US presence in the region has worked in India’s benefit. Right now Pakistan is doing what it is doing because of American insistence. Much to Pakistan’s discomfiture, the US has blocked all its activities in Kashmir and told Pakistan point blank that its belief that India is its enemy is wrong. Without coercion Pakistan never would have gone after the Taliban and by now would have bilked all the US aid towards insurgency training against India and bought more weapons. So it is not all that rosy as you make it out to be. Crocodiles must be watched from a distance. They do not fetch balls. We have been dealing with crocs for too long and have been bitten by them. So if we have to approach them, we will keep a stick, a knife and a rope handy, just in case.

 

Umair – “Lets wait for that much anticipated spectacular terrorist strike on India and see if you b*stards have the balls to attack Pakistan. Than see what this rogue, failed and chaotic state does to your mighty India. Your arrogance will make you lick dust one day, and remember we still havent settled the scores of 1971.”

Lmao. tsk tsk tsk, The frustrated Pakistani feral shows his true colors. I thought that after 1971, you guys would’ve memorized the size of our b@lls but it looks like you haven’t. Don’t worry man, next time, we’ll make sure that you memorize, not only the size of our balls but also the size of our d*cks. Only time will tell whether we lick dust or not but right now you guys are already busy doing, so the experience will only help you for later.

“but we are like cornered tigers and will fight back”

Cornered tigers? Haha. You seem to be listening to a lotta mullah rhetoric lately. Instead of ‘cornered tigers’ it’s actually looking more like a ‘Rat stuck in a mouse-trap’ waiting for it’s inevitable demise.

“we all know our ambassador Hussain Haqqani and how capable is he in presenting Pakistan to the outside world”

I don’t know what your establishment feeds you about Haqqani but here in the US, he’s looked upon as a clown with a begging bowl. Numerous comedy shows & late night shows make fun of your ambassador & other leaders quite frequently. Sorry to break your bubble!

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive
 

Would be refugee writes: “Lets wait for that much anticipated spectacular terrorist strike on India and see if you b*stards have the balls to attack Pakistan. Than see what this rogue, failed and chaotic state does to your mighty India. Your arrogance will make you lick dust one day, and remember we still havent settled the scores of 1971.”

We know this is what you entire establishment has been itching to do all these years. From your own words, it is clear that it was the Pakistani establishment that supported the Mumbai attacks, through “official non state actors.” If India had retaliated, by now none of what is going on inside Pakistan would have happened. What a missed opportunity? And we know you are still reeling from your military’s shameful defeat in 1971 and Kargil. This time tell your generals that they can’t afford to pretend to be fighting the Taliban. The Americans are calling the shots and your leaders are belly dancing to their tunes. Your nukes are in safe hands. This means, you will never get to use them. They will be removed before a bearded idiot decides to launch them. And when you go down, you go down alone. Do not day dream about taking others down with you. Sorry. But that is not how it works. Try another Mumbai and the US itself might launch an attack inside your beloved country. You are doomed. And with your warped attitude, your country is doomed as well.

 

Umair,
Did Pakistan get any aid from all-weather brother China other than lip service?

Chinese seems to stand 100 ft away from Pakistan. What happened?

Posted by Rabbit | Report as abusive
 

Limits of Extortion!

Pak General asks US for AC tents for Swat displaced!

Why Pakistan is never asking anything to China?

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/pak-general-a sks-us-for-ac-tents-for-swat-displaced/9 3031-2.html

Posted by David | Report as abusive
 

Mauryan:

Isn’t there the possibility that India and China can have a modus vivendi? I think so. Also, China is part of the region. Doesn’t India have Russia as its partner? And Russia is also part of the region, or at least an Asian power.

I think China is trying to be a good friend to Pakistan but wouldn’t mind if Pakistan were less dependent on it and more dependent on itself (which it should be).

Perhaps a closer association with the SCO is one answer to better security for both India and Pakistan? And it’s an Asian solution.

A real friendship between India and Pakistan will solve many of these questions and it would be an alliance not based on animosity toward any other country but one which reinforces the stability of India, Pakistan and the region.

There is one more aspect in the reconciliation between India and Pakistan which needs some attention. That is the religious dimension. There should be a convocation of religious leaders of all the religions from the two countries to chime in their authority and their recommendations on the issues which are keeping the countries apart. This two track approach, political and religious, will give a better chance for an agreement to be reached.
Scenario: All religious leaders issue a combined statement that terrorism is against all religious values.

Scenario: Muslims apologize to Sikhs for the killing of Guru Arjun Dev ji by the Mughals.

Scenario: Hindus apologize to Muslims for the destruction of the Babri mosque and offer to rebuild it.

Scenario: Muslims apologise to Hindus for the destruction for the Lord Ram Temple in Ayodia and offer to rebuild it.

Scenario: Everybody apologizes and forgives the other for past actions. Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Jains, Parsis, Buddhists, Christians etc. Even though present-day people of a given religion are completely innocent of any wrongdoing, it will be appreciated that they apologize for the actions of their ancestors and ask forgiveness.

This is how religious leaders can help to bring a full reconciliation between India and Pakistan.

Posted by Alethia | Report as abusive
 

Why Pakistan is never asking anything to China?
- Posted by David

Because China has made it quite clear that it doesn’t wanna touch Pakistan’s begging bowl with a 10 foot pole.

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive
 

KISSINGER:
“Well, N Korea is a very strange country. It’s a country in which everybody has a radio in his house that he can’t shut off, so the government can talk to their people 24 hours a day. And in a way, it does. They have devoted over 50 percent of their GNP to military purposes now for years, and as a result, there’s starvation, shortages. They seem to think that they need nuclear weapons to gain respect or — it’s really hard to know where they are going”

Sounds like Pakistan to me. Mullahs control Radio, military feasts on GNP and country goes homeless, starving, begging, shortages.

Just one difference: N Korea doesn’t bomb it’s own people!

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,5207 80,00.html

Posted by David | Report as abusive
 

Did u donate $5 to Pakistan today?

“Using your cell phone, Americans can text the word ‘Swat’ to the number 20222 and make a $5 contribution that would help the U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees provide tents, clothing, food and medicine for hundreds of thousands of affected people,” Mrs. Clinton said.

http://washingtontimes.com/news/2009/may  /20/us-seeks-5-donations-for-refugees/

Posted by David | Report as abusive
 

David wrote:

“Did u donate $5 to Pakistan today?”

Very soon Americans will be told to “Type ‘DL2PAK’ and send to 2102 for sending dinner leftovers to Pakistan”

Pakis will happily :-) accept it, as always. Paki leaders will appeal (Actually beg) for more leftovers, because its their war and they are the victim.

Nobody will care if its ‘Halal’ or not when there are so many hungry people and no food. I dont worry about Umair, he can eat his ‘Bamb’.

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive
 

Punjabiyaar,
Although I appreciate your humor, please don’t insult common Pakistanis. They are humans like us. They are at the receiving end from all: Immoral military, greedy politicians and ruthless Talibans.

I am just amazed at the insanity and duplicity of military and politicians! I hope no one goes through what common Pakistanis are going through now.

Posted by David | Report as abusive
 

I guess, the only problem with common Pakistanis is that they are too gullible. Always ready and willing to believe what military, mullahs or media feeds you. Never able to question.

But that happens when you are illiterate or attend a Saudi funded Madrassa.

Posted by David | Report as abusive
 

David:

I am sorry if I hurt feelings of any common Pakistani, I know how it feels to be a refugee. Moreover common people dont make policies.

My comment is pointed more towards the options Pakistan as a nation have now, Looking at the amount of begging they had done lately, nobody will be surprised if they come up with a ridiculous demand’ish appeal as above.

I wonder why some Pakis on this forum can even think of praising army and ISI for whatever they had done. They had been parasitic,corrupt and greedy, adding insult to injury they lost wars too.

Pakis are expanding their nukes programme and begging for more aid at the same time. Where do they think the money will come from.

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive
 

Alethia,

Everyone wants peace and a good life. I have no arguments there. Apologizing for past actions by different people will not make things better. Muslims who are asked to apologize for Ayodhya temple are descendants of Hindus who fought the Muslims who came to demolish it and build a mosque on it. Things have changed. I sense from your writing that you have simplified India-Pakistan issues to a religious one. Pakistan separated itself in the name of religion. India never looked at itself as a Hindu country. In fact there are many parts of India where communism thrives and anti-Hindu sentiments exist. Hindus are fighting amongst themselves in terms of class and caste. But that is sporadic and mostly political agenda being disguised in the form of religion or ethnic / linguistic issues. It takes a lot of exposure of the land to understand the real reason. Religion is not the real issue.

Pakistan’s major problem is its attitude towards India. And that attitude is mostly confined to the Punjabi ethnic group in that country. They look at themselves as the most macho people and everyone else in the sub-continent appear inferior to them. It is this attitude that led to the separation of Bangladesh. And it is this attitude that has made a small country to take on a much larger and more powerful neighbor through four wars. India has been mature and has dealt with them diplomatically as much as they could. You cannot provide one evidence of Indian subterfuge inside Pakistan for the past 30 years or more. We need to know what is going to become of Pakistan in the near and far future before deciding whether it is worth engaging in any diplomatic exchanges with them. Pakistan may or may not survive as a nation. We need to see what is ahead first. So it is a waiting time for us.

 

i think now situation in pakistan is improving.talibans majority in number had been killed.

 

Mauryan:
additional Chinese activities–port building like in Gawdar Pakistan is the Hambantota port project in Sri Lanka.
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-0 5/12/content_11360421.htm

“China was committed to developing friendly relations with Sri Lanka based on the Five Principles of Peaceful Co-existence”

Oh yeah! the Panchsheel.

Another one is Bangladeshi port of Chittagong.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

@Lets wait for that much anticipated spectacular terrorist strike on India and see if you b*stards have the balls to attack Pakistan.”
-posted by Pakistan

Wow! How peaceful. As much as I want to whip your ass, I will not wish for innocnets to die. Pakistan being called Rogue state is due to your leaders, nothing to do with a Pakistani on the street. On the otherhand, what you are saying is killings of inncent Indians. Beauty of such statements is that they don’t cause physical damage as intended but shows the character of a person. Is that the Islam code that you brag about that teaches you to say this?

Is there a teenager here who can handle this huffing and puffing of Umair.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

Correction:

@Lets wait for that much anticipated spectacular terrorist strike on India and see if you b*stards have the balls to attack Pakistan.”
-posted by Umair

Wow! How peaceful. As much as I want to whip your ass, I will not wish for innocnets to die. Pakistan being called Rogue state is due to your leaders, nothing to do with a Pakistani on the street. On the otherhand, what you are saying is killings of inncent Indians. Beauty of such statements is that they don’t cause physical damage as intended but shows the character of a person. Is that the Islam code that you brag about that teaches you to say this?

Is there a teenager here who can handle this huffing and puffing of Umair.

- Posted by rajeev

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

@Scenario: All religious leaders issue a combined statement that terrorism is against all religious values.

Scenario: Muslims apologize to Sikhs for the killing of Guru Arjun Dev ji by the Mughals.

Scenario: Hindus apologize to Muslims for the destruction of the Babri mosque and offer to rebuild it.

Scenario: Muslims apologise to Hindus for the destruction for the Lord Ram Temple in Ayodia and offer to rebuild it.

Scenario: Everybody apologizes and forgives the other for past actions. Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Jains, Parsis, Buddhists, Christians etc. Even though present-day people of a given religion are completely innocent of any wrongdoing, it will be appreciated that they apologize for the actions of their ancestors and ask forgiveness.

This is how religious leaders can help to bring a full reconciliation between India and Pakistan.
- Posted by Alethia

Alethia: This log book of Mughal atrocities against Hindus and other non-Muslims is huge.
Also:
Scenario: Muslims apologize to Sikhs for the killing of Guru Arjun Dev ji by the Mughals. PLUS GURU TEG BAHADUR BY AURANGZEB PLUS GURU GOBIND SINGH’S KIDS…..

HoW many Hindus Were killed in the Whole time. Alethia more killings than in holocaust have happned.

But that’s not going to solve a thing. When 2 minds really understand eachother—the Words “sorry” Will appear small.
Overall this gets into the realm Where India despised Mughal rule since non-Muslims suffered a lot under Mughal rule and Pakistanis are proud of that rule and do not see that there have been big time invasion-associated atrocities and Taliban style beheadings–really. Much of the Pakistani bloggers are perhaps converted.

Alethia here is small issue: I have asked many Pakistani bloggers to make a statement that LeT/JeM are terrorist organizations since all knoW LeT have killed innocent Indians like in Mumbai. I have seen pin drop silence from Pakistanis. That person specfically being UMAIR and you might have read his other statements— he is Waiting for anoher Mumbai attack in India. Let us see if you can mediate getting this out of these normal Pakistanis.
Humanity comes before religion.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

hi umair;

where do you reside, in pakistan….?

Posted by rony | Report as abusive
 

Mortal:
“I don’t know what your establishment feeds you about Haqqani but here in the US, he’s looked upon as a clown with a begging bowl. Numerous comedy shows & late night shows make fun of your ambassador & other leaders quite frequently. Sorry to break your bubble!”

You are an idiot Mortal, here is how NY Times praised Ambassador Haqqani,

Adroit Envoy States Case for Pakistan
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/09/world/ asia/09envoy.html

Ambassador Haqqani is very respected and known in US government circle. He is a relentless defender of Pakistan’s reputation. The above article says it all.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Rajeev & Mauryan:

There is a vast well of appreciation, forgiveness and goodwill of Pakistanis toward India. Yes, there are some voices which are anti-India, no doubt, as one can see in this column. That’s life.

Yes, Punjabis tend to be proud and dynamic people-on both sides of the border.

But you minimize the power of asking forgiveness and saying you’re sorry for past or present wrongs. I personally know a bunch of Pakistanis who who want a reconciliation with India. They also grieved during the Mumbai massacre. Their voices are drowned out by a few fanatics. I also know a bunch of Indians who want reconciliation with Pakistan. I know you are not that way, but also their voices have been drowned out by a few fanatics.

The proposal was to INCLUDE not REPLACE religious reconciliation, along with the political. I think it hasn’t been tried before-to bring a meeting of ALL religious groups together from both countries.

Don’t be so sceptical. Give it a try, guys?

Posted by Alethia | Report as abusive
 

It’s time for me to bow out of this discussion.

As friends to both Indians and Pakistanis (I know, I do tend to favor Pakistan a little more), there is before you a proposal to truly forgive and forget – and start anew. The power of forgiveness is a potent one and the light it can produce is blinding – beyond your best dreams…

Posted by Alethia | Report as abusive
 

Punjabiyaar:
“I wonder why some Pakis on this forum can even think of praising army and ISI for whatever they had done. They had been parasitic,corrupt and greedy, adding insult to injury they lost wars too.’

Punjabiyar, I have lost a friend today in Swat this morning, his convoy was attacked and he embraced martyrdom. His funeral was offered in Peshawar, his body will be brought back to Rawalpindi in his home. Capt Umar Zeb Shaheed was a classmate of mine, we applied together for PMA 111 Long course in 2003 when he was commissioned in Pakistan Army. The Army is giving ultimate sacrifice, Umar’s father is a retired Colonel, his brother is a captain and fighting in Swat. We will always honour our heroes, it is our pledge to them: they laid down their lives for Pakistan, we will always defend Pakistan’s honour.
Now you must know why some Pakistanis on this blog praise Army and ISI.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Myra,
I don’t think Pakistan is a failed state or is going to fail anytime soon.
Its in the midst of a civil war and once the Pakistan army and ISI is fully convinced about the urgency required for handling terrorism, then it will be a swift end for Taliban though, it will survive in caves as small groups being a minor irritant now and then.
Its not a question of how much time it has but when will it finally become aware?
Also, when you say peace with India will boost economy and allow the Pak army to readjust its mindset away from India..
Its like a chicken and egg story.. who came first?
Will peace ever come without the Pak army changing its mindset?
Yes India stands to gain if there is actual peace with Pakistan. But then with statements like the Pakistanis are waiting for another Mumbai like strike so that Pak army can teach a lesson to Indian army will never allow us to talk sense with Pakistanis.

Alethia,
1. India doesn’t want to be the dominant country in the region. It just wants to live in peace and develop itself. Though due to its size, it will look like the dominant country.
2. Will you ask the muslims in Pakistan to apologize for unnecessarily diving the country too? Please read the history of creation Pakistan to understand that it was not only religious divide which led to creation of Pakistan. Also read about personalities like Frontier Gandhi. Even Jinnah’s daughter stayed back in India.
3. Peace can not be achieved untill both the parties want it. When you find people like Umair waiting for a Mumbai style attack in India with glee, how can you expect us to talk peace with them?

Umair,
Is wishing for innocent deaths the Pak (pure) way of going to heaven? You really make your country proud.
Are all Pakistanis as well intentioned towards India as you are?
Have you ever thought when Pakistan is living on billions of aid why is the government spending money on something like nuclear bomb? You should be asking your government why can’t it use the aid to set up factories wherein unemployed people who eventually take up guns to earn some money can get employment.

Posted by Aman | Report as abusive
 

Aman
With all the talk of peace, as Myra pointed out regarding Indian Army’s cold start war doctrine of starting offensive operations against Pakistan. Here is an overview:

India now plans and is ready to act offensively against Pakistan for any perceived acts of strategic de-stabilization of India, proxy war and terrorism
* India has in declaratory terms enunciated it will undertake offensive operations against Pakistan, short of the nuclear threshold.
* India could initiate offensive operations either as pre-emptive strikes or initiate offensive operations straight away without giving Pakistan, the time to bring diplomatic leverages in play.
* Indian Army’s combat potential will be fully harnessed for offensive operations at the outset by eliminating the differentiation between “defensive formations” and “offensive formations”.
* Implicit in this Doctrine is that the Indian Army will no longer concentrate on capturing and holding Pakistani territory as leverage for post-war negotiations but the new operational will aim at destroying the combat potential of the Pakistan Army and its war-fighting capacity
* The above is to be achieved by fast moving armored and mechanized operations supported by preponderant artillery fire power and even more preponderant combat fire-power of the Indian Air Force.
———————————————————-

Do you know now why Pakistan regards India as a threat greater than Taliban. Even as of now, only 6000 soldiers have been redeployed from Indian border to the offensive against terrorists. The bulk of Pakistan is still positioned against India.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

The COLD START WAR DOCTRINE has been built around the use of preponderant fine-power of the Army’s own artillery guns and massive use of Indian Air Force combat fire-power for speedy operations and quick military decisive results.

As on today the Indian Army stands deprived critically of both the instruments of firepower essential for the success of the new War Doctrine. Surely, national security imperatives should not be sacrificed at the alter of bureaucratism and the political leadership should be bold in removing such hurdles when it comes to upholding the imperatives of national security.
http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defen ce/6779-india-s-cold-start-war-doctrine- revisited.html

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Umair,
Read the lines you have copy pasted:
“India now plans and is ready to act offensively against Pakistan for any perceived acts of strategic de-stabilization of India, proxy war and terrorism”
This was the overview you wrote.. right?
Now please tell me if Pakistan keeps on sending terrorists and indulges in adventures like Kargil, what is Indian army supposed to do? Sit idle and look back? As the statement above shows don’t indilge in terrorism, show us that you are taking action against terrorist camps and you are serious about dismantling the terrorist camps you people have setup, then you don’t have to fear anything then neither from India nor from Taliban

Also, don’t go by the fodder that war mongering journalists feed you with. Cold Start is a purely defensive strategy with the capability to launch counter-strikes with lightning speed. In other words army will be ready so that it doesn’t get nasty surprises like Kargil and even if such surprises happen it can respond quickly to them.
This development came after India’s experience of moving its troops to the border during 2001-02 stand-off with Pakistan.
Using this methodology, the Indian army can quickly launch counter-strikes (offensive) against the enemy using its defensive troops deployed at the border. This also means moving its offensive troops (which haven’t been used in any if the battles yet, since it takes weeks to move the army with all its heavy machines) nearer to the borders. This effectively has meant that the difference between defensive troops (deployed at the border) and offensive troops held back at the barracks is reduced with the defensive troops having its own set of heavy weaponry.
And yes, this was developed only keeping in mind the Pakistan army’s adventurist attitude at the border during Kargil. Moreover, this is effective only when India’s political class has the will to take on Pakistan. It gives the army the advantage to mount counter strikes before international pressure forces them to pull back as had happened in the past.

So again its a chicken and egg story… Stop the terrorist camps and you don’t have to fear about anything. You can not expect the army to be pulled back when hordes of militant try to infiltrate the border everyday. And your army indulges in tactics like Kargil.

Anyways, you didn’t answer my questions.

Posted by Aman | Report as abusive
 

Aman:
no, the first line you quoted is not written by me, it is part of other points below.

You want me to answer your questions:

Is wishing for innocent deaths the Pak (pure) way of going to heaven? You really make your country proud.

-your question has ambiguity, its not clear what are you trying to say. No one in Pakistan wishes for innocent deaths. When Mumbai happened, we condemned it. Islamabad was also bombed, we have seen terror, I have lived and worked abroad and had friends from Mumbai. we dont wish to others what we have experienced ourselves.

Are all Pakistanis as well intentioned towards India as you are?
-hmmm, all Pakistanis will always stand up for Pakistan. Today one of my friend embraced martyrdom while fighting in Swat against terrorists. We appeared together in the PMA 111 Long course for commission in the army. My friend will be laid to rest on Friday Morning 10:00am in Rawalpindi. We have no ill intentions against anyone, only if someone has ill intentions towards us we will stand upto them.
Have you ever thought when Pakistan is living on billions of aid why is the government spending money on something like nuclear bomb?
- ovrstatement, Pakistan surely had seen very sound economic growth from 2002-2007 during the five year period. When political turmoil started after which Musharraf had to resign, Pakistan’s economic situation declined. But i have no doubt if we work honestly we will be economically stable. To the question of why Pakistan is adding nuclear weapons is that the world is voicing doubts about Pakistan’s future and survival as a united country. Pakistan is giving a message to the world that anyone who tries to dismember Pakistan will face nuclear retaliation. This is a vieled threat that will deter any nefarious designs against pakistan. If you agree or disagree I am not sure, but Pakistan’s nuclear capability is a big deterent against such threats.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Umair:
“We will always honour our heroes, it is our pledge to them: they laid down their lives for Pakistan, we will always defend Pakistan’s honour.”

What about Innocent civilians, who are getting killed everyday by shelling and gunship helicopters. Do you honor them as well ??

What about the refugees ?

Firstly your army let Taliban cut loose because army thinks Taliban are a strategic asset against India and Afghanistan. Now army is killing them (or pretending) and your leaders are asking for donations.

If your army had not supported them earlier, All swatis would be living in their homes peacefully by now.

Do you pakis have a mind of your own or you just buy any crap which your army sells to you.

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive
 

Punjabiyaar
The Army chief has ordered the Army to ensure there is no collateral damage and civilian casualties, even if it means sacrificing their own lives and putting themselves at risk. Army Medical Corps teams have opened up medical units in refugee capms, Parlliament members are donating one month salary fo rthem. Everywhere in Pakistan people are donating everything from food items, tents and water coolers for the refugees.
Pakistan has a vibrant media and its not that Army is feeding us any propaganda. There are more than two dozen independent TV channels in Pakistan and people of Pakistan can create their opinions.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Umair,
Well its nice to hear that you don’t wish us mumbai style attacks though your previous posts didn’t convey that feeling.
Anyways,
I am not talking about past when I question the expenditure on nuclear weapons.
Do you really believe that having nuclear weapons is a detterent? Assume that Taliban is trying to dismember Pakistan.. what good will it serve to you?
Will you bomb yourself?

Also, now since you don’t wish us terrorist strikes then will you say that terrorist organisations like LeT and JuD should not be given any kind of support by anyone? And since they are operating from Pakistan’s soil (even if as non-state actors) then will Pakistan take concrete action against them the way Pak army is fighting against the Pakistan Taliban? You know, just one word of peace from your side will end all wars atleast here on this blog. Except may be for Kashmir.

Posted by Aman | Report as abusive
 

Umair,
Your country’s honor is going through trials in Mumbai for killing 170 innocent, women, children. Another 9 are in mortuary, waiting for acceptance from your honorable country. Is this how much Pakistan ISI, politicians love you?

Rather than accepting these 10 Pakistanis, Pakistani media is propagating conspiracy theories from ISI and walked away from it’s responsibilities.

Do you work for ISI’s Blogging division?

Posted by Mani | Report as abusive
 

Aman
Its not that simple situation, you have to tink it from a Pakistani point of view. we lost East Pakistan, we suffered a lot. The Let JuD give us the strategic leverage over a much bigger India. An Indo-Pak war is still a possibility because there are unresolved disputes like Kashmir between the two countries. Its not a question of supporting terrorist groups. But there are some groups that fight India in Kashmir and some groups that are agianst Pakistan itself.
And I told you already that today i am in a shock since i lost a friend in Swat. Our Army is moving against terrorists. But the important thing is does India also want normal relations. We cannot clap with one hand, If Pakistan has to stop supporting anti-Indian terrorist groups, than India has to resolve the Kashmir dispute its as simple as that.
My point is India and Pakistan are not in good terms with each other. Until relations improve significantly, its all talk and no action. We cannot do much.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

“If we don’t come back…tell them we have sacrificed our today for their tomorrow…”

Honoring the martyrs of Operation Rah-e-Haq(straight path)

Major Abid Majeed Shaheed
Capt. Bilal Shaheed
Capt. Umar Zeb Shaheed
and many others martyrs and wounded.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Umair,

As someone who has lost close comrades in Afghanistan I would respectfully suggest to you that the way to honour your friend is to make sure the mission is accomplished.

No more peace deals this time around. If you value your friends sacrfice I expect that you will be at the barricades at the first mention of a peace agreement. I expect you to be on here screaming ‘bloody murder’ if the PA offers a peace deal again. Your friend could well be alive today had the Army done the job right the last time around. Instead your generals chose the path of cowards and good men have paid the ultimate price for that cowardice. You cannot appease a tumor or a crocodile into submission. I should hope that you and your fellow citizens understand this and finish this fight once and for all so that fewer good men will pay the ultimate price in the future.

Posted by Keith | Report as abusive
 

Military nut writes: “My point is India and Pakistan are not in good terms with each other. Until relations improve significantly, its all talk and no action. We cannot do much.”

We are not standing at your gate begging for peace initiative from your side, if that’s impression you have got. The reason why India is not in good terms with your country is proved by the attitude that emanates from you and your establishment. Change that first and we will see if it is worth negotiating any peace with your country. We have handled your LeT and JuD well so far and we will do what is necessary if they do not get curbed by your establishment. Interestingly, Kashmir insurgency has gone quiet when your army is fighting the Taliban. That tells us something. My perspective is that, Pakistanis’ attitude is not going to change towards India. Any peace is only a temporary hold for recharging and going back to the old ways. There is no trust from our side. So it is better if your beloved military is engaged constantly chasing its own tail rather than mess up your country or others in the neighborhood. This Taliban war will not be over. They may disappear for a short while and reappear like weeds in other parts of the country. Al Qaeda is alreay seething with vengeance against your establishment for going to bed with the Americans. And they feel just the same way you guys feel about Bangladesh defeat. And they are not a government and have no accountability. So you are facing a much deadlier enemy than we do. This 170 million population is mostly sheep. It only takes a few hounds to drive them around. And the hounds are breeding and multiplying fast. Until recently your establishment bred them and turned them loose against others. Now they are trapped and have started biting your own flesh. So that’s where things are headed. No matter how much you list your military’s inventory, the reality is too obvious for everyone to see. You guys have messed up things too much.

 

Keith
Its not that the generals chose th epath of cowardice, the military operation is not an easy option. There is a humanitarian crisis now, the Army chief did state that pause in military operation was meant to give reconciliatory forces a chance, not to give militants a concession.
But my question to you guys (US and NATO) is, why do you expect the PA to do something you guys were not able to achieve for last 8 years in Afghanistan? What the heck are you guys doing in Afghanistan? that war has spilled into Pakistan. This needless war is killing many good people, why did matters got to this stage? This war must end, we must bring our soldiers back as soon as possible.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Keith
I see you are pro-war, but I am anti-war. No matter how long we fight we will not be able to finish the fight. we have to win hearts and minds, insurgencies are difficult and expensive, with meagre resources its even more difficult to sustain a long insurgency for Pakistan. Most casualties in Pakistan Army in this war are due to convoy ambush and IEDs. Why should we risk that? at some point there has to be a ceasefire and peae agreement.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Umair, you again carefully dodged my question, if Pakistani army had not supported Taliban and leaders had not made agreements with them, This operation was not necessary, Do you agree ??

We have seen your army and police attacking Geo News, do you still believe media is independent ?

You may be helping refugees TODAY, but army is the reason for their displacement.

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive
 

Punjabiyaar
For all your questions, there is one answer. Hillary Clinton’s confession yesterday that the current situation in Pakistan is the result of incoherent US policy towards that country for the past 30 years.
And again when the Army was reluctant to conduct a largescale military operation, the accusation was it is abdicating to the Taliban, now the accusation is that Army has displaced millions of people making them refugees.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Mullah with short memory writes: “my question to you guys (US and NATO) is, why do you expect the PA to do something you guys were not able to achieve for last 8 years in Afghanistan?”

In 2001, if the idiots in charge of the US did the right thing, none of this would have happened. What should they have done? – Acknowledge what the current administration has admitted – Afghanistan and the Taliban were mere symptoms of an underlying cause. And that cause for Pakistan’s military-intelligence-insurgent network that was breeding the pack wolves for a long time since 1979 for one and only one purpose. Had they called the operation as Af-Pak then itself instead of now, both Afghanistan and Pakistan could have been settled by now. Instead, Rumsfeld and the other neocons decided to allow Pakistan to take back the Taliban into its territory, rock them in their cradles and wait for the Americans to install a puppet regime in Afghanistan and leave. They knew that Pakistan can send its proxies to take back Afghanistan after that. That plan failed. And the result of that failure is your country’s current state. So stop acting innocent. You display a lot of information about your military. I am sure you know the truth and are unwilling to accept it. But that doesn’t matter. Your rear end is on fire.

“What the heck are you guys doing in Afghanistan?”

Their financial capital got attacked in 2001 by terrorists who had taken over Afghanistan and were covertly and overtly supported by Pakistan. All financial transactions for that operation went through your dear country. The mistake the US made was it bombed Afghanistan. It should have bombed Pakistan back to stone ages first and trapped the Taliban from all directions and bombed the living daylights out of them in Afghanistan. Now that would have been the best Af-Pak strategy and they missed it. So wait for sometime. You guys are asking for it with your belligerent attitude.

“that war has spilled into Pakistan.”

No. This war started in Pakistan. Your dear Zia Ul Haq and his ISI laid a bear trap for Russian commies to walk into Afghanistan to eliminate Pakistan’s pariah status, and turn that into an all out American support, weapons, rapid Islamic radicalization and of course global blind sight to the Islamic bomb. The Americans did their part and left. Pakistan created the Taliban, took over Afghanistan and bred global terrorism there. Do you want to be reminded of the air lift where several Pakistani military personnel were taken out of Afghanistan as a part of the deal Mushy made? Do not pretend to be innocent. You guys are crooks and stop pretending. It is too obvious to everyone but you.

“This needless war is killing many good people, why did matters got to this stage? This war must end, we must bring our soldiers back as soon as possible.”

That is your undoing. So go fix it. Don’t blame others.

 
 

@The COLD START WAR DOCTRINE has been built around the use of preponderant fine-power of the Army’s own artillery guns and massive use of Indian Air Force combat fire-power for speedy operations and quick military decisive results.
-by Umair

–Read Keith’s post on previous blog ‘After Indian election, relationship with Pakistan back in focus”. He is in this business and tells what it is all about. Do not get hyper by the words like “lightening”.

–I am sorry to hear about your friend!
You continue to amaze me by your selectivity for not calling certain people as terrorist even though they kill certain innocents in a certain country.

You say LeT has strategic value against India and then also say all of Pakistani grieved for Mumbai victims etc…. Umair, those victims were the result of your strategic tool LeT. Imagine Karachi instead of Mumbai and keep the same terrorists and imagine your are having a dinner at Taj or Oberoi or buying train ticket at CST. Would you continue with your rant. Come out of it. This places you in the category of a terrorist sympathizer. Explain me why not? and if others in Pakistan think that way, why not I extrapolate to other pakistanis. Umair, if you are not in Army, do not behave like one, behave like an ordinary Pakistani. Else you are doing a great disservice to your fellow countrymen who I believe do not think that way. But you for me you are a terrorist sympathizer–plain and simple. You cannot support LeT as a tool and grieve over Mumbai attack.

Give me a moral justification for your stand and hypocrisy.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

Roles under UN Flag
In addition to its main roles of repelling external aggressions and grappling with inter­nal security issues, natural calamities, and nation-building projects, the Pakistan Army from 1960 onwards also played a heroic role as part of UN forces in peacekeeping, peace­making and peace-enforcing, providing per­sonnel to several different missions.
http://www.pakistanarmy.gov.pk/AWPReview  /TextContent.aspx?pId=18&rnd=157#the-19 71-war

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Umair:
“Hillary Clinton’s confession yesterday that the current situation in Pakistan is the result of incoherent US policy towards that country for the past 30 years.”

Its good to hear that your country is run by US policy for last 30 years. You cheerfully keep accepting donations from US for 30 years to blame them at end.

Again its your weak Army or Leadership, why do you let your country run by US or anybody else.

“Army was reluctant to conduct a largescale military operation, the accusation was it is abdicating to the Taliban, now the accusation is that Army has displaced millions of people making them refugees.”

Pak army was opposing large scale operation because it see Taliban as a tool against India and Afghanistan. Now Pakistan is trying to eliminate them and facing refugee problems. One can easily understand that Pakistan Army wants to keep its animosity with its neighbors even if it has to harm its own people in result. I can see how much love and affection your army has for you.

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive
 

Umair,

I am very sorry to hear that your friend was killed.

Will follow up other comments tomorrow.

Myra

Posted by Myra MacDonald | Report as abusive
 

Umair and other Pakistanis,
Hillary Clinton made the mistake of saying something without clarifying. The Indian and Pakistani press have even further distorted it by using small pieces of what she actually said, just like the war-hawks have done here in the US. (Go ahead, check my facts.)

She admitted, and rightfully so, that US policy has CONTRIBUTED to Paks mess. And I really don’t think you know what it implies. It means just what Obama said earlier, “No more blank checks”. We will PERSONALLY oversee the use of aid money. We will PERSONALLY make sure that you don’t continue to let citizens suffer while preparing for a war with India that will probably never happen. We will PERSONALLY make sure that our policy is “coherent”. In other words, we will control the flow of cash in Pakistan. Why? Because every previous attempt to help you has backfired, largely due to corruption and greed of Pakistanis. You will not help yourselves. Now Pakistan has finally decided to defend itself from, well…itself. Can the nationalist pride that the Pak army speaks of, actually hold Pak together? We shall see.

Posted by Patrick | Report as abusive
 

Myra/Rajeev
Thank you for the heartfelt condolence, and your compassion. My friend will be missed, i hope and pray for others deployed in Swat. Pakistan is going through many difficulties but we will remain resilient.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

@Well its nice to hear that you don’t wish us mumbai style attacks though your previous posts didn’t convey that feeling.
-by Aman

Aman, do not be so quick and get comforted by these words. Ask for a statement on LeT and you’ll know. That’s the litmus test, assuming a blogger is not lying.

This is called wriggling out of a tight corner.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

Keith
I see you are pro-war, but I am anti-war. No matter how long we fight we will not be able to finish the fight. we have to win hearts and minds, insurgencies are difficult and expensive, with meagre resources its even more difficult to sustain a long insurgency for Pakistan. Most casualties in Pakistan Army in this war are due to convoy ambush and IEDs. Why should we risk that? at some point there has to be a ceasefire and peae agreement.
- Posted by Umair

Keith
Its not that the generals chose th epath of cowardice, the military operation is not an easy option. There is a humanitarian crisis now, the Army chief did state that pause in military operation was meant to give reconciliatory forces a chance, not to give militants a concession.
But my question to you guys (US and NATO) is, why do you expect the PA to do something you guys were not able to achieve for last 8 years in Afghanistan? What the heck are you guys doing in Afghanistan? that war has spilled into Pakistan. This needless war is killing many good people, why did matters got to this stage? This war must end, we must bring our soldiers back as soon as possible.
- Posted by Umair

It’s not that I am pro or anti-war, it’s just that I am for what needs to be done…particularly if it saves lives down the road. Would the Pak Army have taken all these casualties today if they had not signed a peace agreement (promptly abrogated by the militants) which allowed them to re-arm, recruit, re-train and rest? Would the humanitarian crisis have been as large if the Swati terrorists had been tackled earlier? It is moral cowardice on the part of government and military leaders to let the problem fester till now, plain and simple. And if they repeat the mistake again, we’ll have many more dead Pakistani soldiers and civilians on our hands. I hope it does not come to that. My honest and sincere sympathies to you for losing your friend. I attended a ramp ceremony here in Canada for a close friend who died just a few weeks ago. Just two weeks before her death I was having lunch with her and just like that she was gone. An extremely capable officer (one of the youngest majors I know) and one of the nicest people I ever knew, my knees buckled when I heard of her death. So don’t think that I take such news lightly. However, I know that her sacrifice will be for naught if this scourge of Islamist terror is not defeated once and for all. That’s why I support our troops in Afghanistan. And that’s why they go out the door to face death each and every day. They do this today so that we will not face this scourge tomorrow.

I agree that insurgencies are hard to fight. And being Canadian I assure you that I am more than aware of the dangers of IEDs, having lost too many good comrades to them. But that does not mean you stop. The mark of a good soldier is what he does after the first round comes his way. The best ones I know are the ones who push forward not shirk away from danger. And the Pak Army is more than well equipped to deal with this. As yet, they do not face the type of IEDs we’ve had in Kandahar, so why not deploy more APCs from the border to protect troops in the NWFP? Why not re-equip the troops with more PPE (personal protective equipment)? We hear stories from defence attaches about Frontier Corpsmen who don’t have proper winter jackets, forget about flak vests, proper weapons, etc. What kind of madness is this when an Army does not equip its own troops who are in the fight with the bare basics but keeps thousands of others well stocked and well fed in a non-combat zone? Can you imagine if a western government did that what would happen? There would be 24 hour news coverage of that and congressional/parliamentary inquiries. If you want to know why casualties are so high, this is a good point to start at.

I agree that at some point you will need a settlement. But let’s be clear. You know as well as I do, that means a settlement with the tribal leaders (500 of whom have been killed off while the PA watches on), not with Fazlullah, Mehsud, etc. If your government starts cutting deals with these crooks and letting these criminals speak for the Pashtun public what hope is there Pakistan? If that’s going to be the case, then why not let the LeT speak for Punjabis?

When it comes to Afghanistan….you know as well as I do why NATO isn’t doing as well as we should. No insurgency has ever been won without destroying the insurgents sanctuaries. Right now they are not on our side of the Durand line. I know this. Every general I have briefed know this. Every US and Brit official I have met knows this. Hence the Obama Af/Pak strategy. If the PA isn’t willing to put in an honest day’s work against these insurgents then the US will do it because we are sick of losing our soldiers to guys who run back across the line.

I agree that the war must end. But it cannot end without some serious effort by Pakistanis. Today, the future of the whole region is in Pakistan’s hands. It can help the west pacify Afghanistan or continue to sit on its hand and run the Indian bogey up the flag pole to avoid making hard choices. In the end, that choice in itself will have dire consequences for Pakistan. It is good to see that Pakistan is taking action now. Hopefully your leadership is mature enough to continue making the right decisions without a lecture every few weeks from a US official.

Posted by Keith | Report as abusive
 

Umair,

One more point (and I raise this for the wider audience too). Why is it that the deaths of officers is given so much coverage in Pakistan but the deaths of sepoys is treated largely as a news byline? This is not a situation I could imagine over here in Canada where every private’s death is treated the same as every major’s death.

To some extent India is guilty of this as well…though that’s changing now that India has 24 hr news services and such. Changing this attitude alone would bring about a sea change in Pakistani defence policy. When every soldier is valued then generals and politicians will truly appreciate the decisions they make to sacrifice their lives. There would have been no Kargil if Musharraf truly valued the lives of the soldiers he was sending to the slaughter.

Posted by Keith | Report as abusive
 

Keith
Just forgot to say Thank you to you too for the condolences,also i have same centiments for your friends killed in Afghanistan.
will talk later.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Believe me, Pakistan still has time. Countries in our world have over-come disasters of highest magnitude. Pakistan is not dealing with Hitler’s army, they are just a few thousand Talibans.
Issue with Pakistan is no body knows who is in authority. Once Pakistani population decides this, problems will start sorting out.

Posted by Virendra | Report as abusive
 

Rajeev,
I had asked Umair about LeT and JuD and I was not making any judgements on his well wishes. We were just exchanging nicities.

Here is what he relplied about LeT and JuD

“Aman
Its not that simple situation, you have to tink it from a Pakistani point of view. we lost East Pakistan, we suffered a lot. The Let JuD give us the strategic leverage over a much bigger India. An Indo-Pak war is still a possibility because there are unresolved disputes like Kashmir between the two countries. Its not a question of supporting terrorist groups. But there are some groups that fight India in Kashmir and some groups that are agianst Pakistan itself.
And I told you already that today i am in a shock since i lost a friend in Swat. Our Army is moving against terrorists. But the important thing is does India also want normal relations. We cannot clap with one hand, If Pakistan has to stop supporting anti-Indian terrorist groups, than India has to resolve the Kashmir dispute its as simple as that.
My point is India and Pakistan are not in good terms with each other. Until relations improve significantly, its all talk and no action. We cannot do much.”

Umair,
So you are proud to be supporting terrorist organisations like LeT and JuD because they give you strategic depth against India. In other words, you are holding a gun on India’s head (literally and figuratively) and asking it solve Kashmir issue. And why should India alone solve the issue? As you said you can not clap with one hand, don’t you think Pakistan should stop behaving like a gangster. (I am not using words like rogue state, though if you are using terrorism for strategic depth then you are a rogue state).

You can see the difference between Indians and Pakistanis here itself on the blog.

All Indians start with a peaceful attitude towards Pakistan, asking it to condemn terrorist activities but then Pakistanis become like gangsters, solve Kashmir or you will have many more Mumbai attacks.

Think about it Umair, will you cow down to such tactics? You asked me about cold start, I gave you the answer, its a defensive setup to stop and quickly rectify Kargil style adventures by Pak army. Do you think LeT and JuD are strategic formations?

What strategic depth does LeT and JuD give you? Killing civilians for no reason at all except for the fact that they are Indians?

Umair, do you have humanity in you or is it reserved for a few friends alone?

All those who support such inhuman approach and this includes people like Alethia who are self professedly partial towards Pakistan should contemplate and ask themselves why are they sympathetic towards pakistan?

Posted by Aman | Report as abusive
 

Keith
You have made some important points, here are my thoughts.
I agree Pakistan holds the key to peace in the region, but the strategy should be coherent, the coalition or allies should keep in mind the sensitivities. No doubt there might be sanctuaries along Pakistan side of durand line. But they did sprung up due to the military presence in Afghanistan and all these terrorists pushed into Pakistan. Shortly, Afghanistan’s instability has spilled into and destabilizing Pakistan. NATO/US cannot simply dodge the failure in Afghanistan by putting blame on Pakistan of not being able to eliminate the terrorist sanctuaries across the western border. Even basic equipment like Night vision gogles are not provided to Pakistan. The drone attacks are a cheap tactical policy to increase body counts, Pakistan has argued for months that these fuel anti-Americanism and further alienate the local population and provide a recruiting tool for insurgents. When you say Pakistan hold the key to the region’s future, than you have to make sure to work together with Pakistan, not against it and undermine it.

On the question of IEDs and Pakistan not properly honoring the soldiers and only highlighting the death of Officers. Let me tell you how my friend lost his life yesterday, one of the soldiers in his unit went to the forward position. He was killed by sniper fire, as a result, the Commanding officer of their Unit, my friend and other soldiers/officers, a whole rescue and evacuation party went to take out and retrieve the body of the fallen soldier. It was there when a remote controlled device activated and blew off the front side of the vehicle resulting in his death. Every single soldier is highly valued in Pakistan Army.

The US officials are very fond of lectures i guess? no one has the right to interfere in Pakistan’s internal matters. We dont need lectures on how democracy works, how to choose among friends and enemies or how to fight wars and make peace. Although i fully support our troops and their mission, but I am of the view that this war has to end, we need to contain it not expand this war.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Another thing Keith, the Canadian defence minister Peter MacKay was in Pakistan couple of days back.
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2009/05/2 1/mackay-pakistan-nuclear.html
” in an interview this week, MacKay said Canada was prepared to end its 11-year arms embargo on the sale of military technology to Pakistan — a statement that angered India, which said the high-tech weapons would in all likelihood be turned on them.

The comments also shocked the Foreign Affairs Department, which took the unusual step of publicly contradicting MacKay, who once was foreign minister.

“Canada’s policy regarding military exports to Pakistan remains unchanged,” said Catherine Loubier, director of communications for Foreign Affairs Minister Lawrence Cannon.

The bottom line: “There are no plans to lift restrictions on the arms sales ban with Pakistan.”

-So this is the bias towards Pakistan, you want us to fight and loose our soldiers while you impose arms embargoes on Pakistan. Why? because it angers India? So how about asking India to send in a few thousand soldiers to the combat zone in Afghanistan and do some fighting? Afterall, why should Pakistan risk everything?

This bias towards Pakistan should end, Pakistan has the right to military technology, weapons and training. These double standards should end, why should India have a problem every time Pakistan buys a fighter jet from US, a submarine from Europe or a tank from China? India has huge military and Pakistan has the right to consolidate its defence.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Aman and Rajeev
Lets leave the question of terrorist organizations like JuD and LeT for a while. Let me ask you a question, what do you guys think about Kashmir? Is part of India or Pakistan? secondly do you believe the Indian army atrocities in Kashmir? and the 80,000 people killed in Kashmir why did they die? Simply tell me, is Kashmir a dispute between India and Pakistan? We can discuss the anti-Indian terrorist groups later.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

If Pakistanis were smart they would forget KAshmir and concentrate on sorting out the mess inside their own country for atleast the next 10 years.

nut they aren’t its kind of like coveting your neighbour’s lawn when your house is on fire.

Posted by Shantanu Chatterjee | Report as abusive
 

Umair,
Though I firmly believe that its highly unethical to support terrorism.
But for the sake of discussion, I’ll leave it aside for the moment. We believe Kashmir is a part of India. For you its a part of Pakistan. So it is a contentious issue and I don’t deny that.
Now I don’t know who feeds you with the nonsense of 80000 deaths but I won’t deny that there have been numerous killings. Who killed whom again is matter of contention as I believe that just like Taliban killing people in Pakistan, it has been LeT and JuD killing people in India.
Moreover, till the late 80′s Kashmir was very peaceful and it is only after Pakistan’s army and ISI started implanting terrorists that situation has rapidly gone down-hill. So the blood of innocents killed and people displaced because of this insurgency is on your soul rather than on India’s.
Also, if you read newspapers then seperatist leader Sajjad Gani Lone lost in the elections and has still decided to stay in the “mainstream politics” rather than go back to his separatists ways.
Indian army in Kashmir, just like Pakistani army in SWAT is trying to reduce the collateral damage. I will ask you one thing, do you think SWAT, Balochistan and other Pashtun dominated areas of Pakistan are not a part of your country? Just because they belong to a different community/tribe doesn’t mean that you will discriminate against them.
You keep ranting about attrocities on muslims in India, why do you think they refused to let the authorities bury your brothers bodies in India after Mumbai attacks? They said, “Bharat ki Pak zameen mein in Darindo ke liye koi jagah nahi hai”. As far as i understand, its absolute blasphemy in Islam not to be allowed to be buried after death.
We have had Muslims at the top of everything, right from defence, research to parliament and executives.
Even the current vice-president is a muslim. You talk about BJP a lot, even that party has muslims at important positions.
India is a truly democratic society. I am sure you have a blast on bollywood movies. And when you see Indian cricket team, havent you seen muslims giving their hearts out playing for their mother country? Why do you think its like that?
Its because India is a land of oppurtunities, you just have to grab it. Yes there are some stereo types everywhere and India too has its share of fringe elements but that doesnt make India conniving. We are a tolerant society while you are an Islamic state, the definition is enough to show you the difference.

And as I have said, yes Kashmir is a dispute between India and Pakistan and needs to be discussed but as I have stated earlier, holding a gun on somebody’s head is no way of negotiating.

Now you tell me, you haven’t answered any of my questions,
All the options that we have militarily are all defensive in nature. Including the cold start startegy which is nothing but troop mobilization activity in time of need.
Is having LeT and JuD a part of your defensive startegy? Or is Mumbai style attacks defensive in nature?
Or is it that you consider Kargil misadventure a defensive strategy? Or the attack on Indian parliament defensive posturing on Pakistan’s part?
You keep saying that India is a regional bully… Well its hard to see how India is a bully when all the terrorists work for you. Is it morally right on your part to support LeT and JuD and then shed crocodile tears when Mumbai attacks happen?
You keep saying Kashmir is a problem, can you suggest a solution which might be acceptable to all the parties?

Posted by Aman | Report as abusive
 

If Pakistan wastes its resources in keeping the Kashmir fire alive, its decline will become even more rapid. Pakistan’s Kashmir obsession is emotional rather than rational. One thing most Pakistanis do not think about is their partiality. In East Pakistan, their military slaughtered their compatriots. Zia Ul Haq led the unit in Syria that slaughtered Palestinians before he was promoted as Pakistan’s general (Source: “The Duel” by Tariq Ali). Most deaths in Kashmir have come as a result of insurgents and the cross fire between clueless Indian military and the insurgents. This proxy war was successfully used by CIA and the ISI in Afghanistan to frustrate the Russians leading to their demise. The same methodology has been used in Kashmir right after Soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan. In 1989, the Soviets left. In 1989, Kashmir problem erupted and has been going on even now. The plan was to frustrate the Indian security forces which would in turn force them to resort to brutal methods and help alienate the locals further. And Pakistan’s strategy has almost succeeded. But, 9/11 happened and everything changed. After Obama took over, the US openly began to spell out the truth about Pakistan’s involvement in Kashmir. Pakistan under further emotional strain, messed up its chances by allowing Mumbai attacks to happen and then showing reluctance to co-operate with India while the world watched everything. So Kashmiris are now realizing that going with Pakistan is the worst mistake that they could ever make, considering how conditions in Pakistan now are. And they are looking at India and realize that without Pakistan sponsored insurgency, Kashmir is indeed quite peaceful. The Indian troops are not resorting to brute means when peace prevails. They are leaning towards independence. Considering what they have undergone, I am not surprised at their feelings. However, India will not agree to that. So it is useless to include Kashmir in India-Pakistan discussions. Pakistan has shot itself in the foot by resorting to violent means which has backfired on itself. Kashmiris have learned a valuable lesson and they may use Pakistan’s covert support for their purposes, but will never like to merge with that country.

 

“Making fools”

Witness says Swat operation not what it seems

Seems like real people, real soldiers are dying so that politicians and army can play the drama to extort US and UN.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/80 61788.stm

Posted by David | Report as abusive
 

Umair babbles:

Why? because it angers India? So how about asking India to send in a few thousand soldiers to the combat zone in Afghanistan and do some fighting? Afterall, why should Pakistan risk everything?

This bias towards Pakistan should end, Pakistan has the right to military technology, weapons and training. These double standards should end, why should India have a problem every time Pakistan buys a fighter jet from US, a submarine from Europe or a tank from China? India has huge military and Pakistan has the right to consolidate its defence.

Response:

You idiotic fool, did you ever thing, if you selfish punjabi fools quit sending jihadi’s and left Kashmir alone, that each side of Kashmir would be happy being left alone? Did you ever stop to think that India has a right to defend its borders, if you guys keep sending your mindslave Jihadi’s to cause unrest in kashmir? Did you ever stop to think that the 700,000 army in Kashmir, may not exist there, if you guys had not aggressed India in the first place?

You Stupid Fauji’s rattle the lion’s cage and then cry when the lion bears its teeth, how laughable. Your Kashmiri’s now know that any offensive in Pakistan against JuD and LeT will cause a mass exodus into India. That’s right, Pakistani’s will flow into India for safety, not into Pakistani! Who is truly the devious, lying conniving party here?

Pakistan can only deserve its rightful place among sovereign nations, once its army:

1)declares India is not its enemy
2)apologizes to Bangladesh for 1971 genocide of 3 million humans
3)declares all madrasa educated radical islamic militants as criminals and enemy of the state of Pakistan
4)destroys ALL proxy armies.

OH, by the way, you can keep your nukes.

Any further Pakistani misadventures like Kargil, and India has the right to invade and take all of Kashmir the next time.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan exporting Islamist insurgency to Russian republic of Dagestan

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/806279 3.stm

Posted by David | Report as abusive
 

Umair writes: “So how about asking India to send in a few thousand soldiers to the combat zone in Afghanistan and do some fighting? Afterall, why should Pakistan risk everything?”

You guys cannot even stand India doing constructive projects inside Afghanistan. Your ISI blew up an Indian embassy there. Now you are recommending our soldiers? Sure. How about we send them into Azad Kashmir first? We need to clean out jihadi training camps there. This way we can help Pakistan tackle terrorism of which they have become the worst victim. We can also send in our air force over FATA and Swat. Pakistan has taken too much risk already by foolishly taking on a nuclear power by means of proxy wars. So what India did was to hold that insurgency at arm’s length and in due course, the same insurgents have begun to bite Pakistan’s rear end. And it is the mess that Pakistan created and it is the mess they are not going to get out of that easily. Now you have a million guests from Swat whom you have to feed for your foolish policies of breeding the Taliban and Al Qaeda for strategic depth against India. You guys do everything and then pretend as though you are thumb suckling babies. Only it is too obvious to everyone else other than your countrymen.

 

Umair,

Pakistan is not ‘key’ to regional peace. It’s global migrane.

You feel glad when US(Clinton) accepts its faults of the past. Does your Army and ISI have guts to do the same? Were you Pakis not complicit in using terrorism as state policy?

When i read about death of your friend that died in SWAT I was feeling bad but then i saw your dilly dalliance on LeT and JuD and the next image that came to my mind was the bodies of Major Unnikrishnan and Mr Omble. If you feel LeT and JuD are assets than i guess your Army deserve to die fighting your own creations.

Your Army is such a burden on your nation that when your leaders are begging for help on IDPs your Army is accelerating its N weapons production. Are you going to solve your IDP problem with N bomb?

Posted by chirkut | Report as abusive
 

And the drama continues….
Shameless PA
“From the air, there was little evidence of the fierce fighting and air strikes that the military claims have already killed more than 1,000 militants as well as some 60 soldiers.”
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn -content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/prov inces/07-troops-encircle-swat-cut-off-ta liban-escape-routes-ha-05

Posted by chirkut | Report as abusive
 

@Chirkut,

LIES told by the LYING LIARS in Islamabad and Rawalpindi always come out Chirkut. Pakistan never fails to entertain us, they seem to keep getting caught befuddling and dwelling in lies, falsehoods and alterior motives.

Pakistan says one thing and does another.

Oh, and by the way, I was just watching BBC, and most of the Chechen trained Islamic Rebels received their training in Pakistan.

Umair, feel free to mention that Pakistan has many terrorist training camps that sends terrorism to many corners of the world. IN short the world thanks you for creating so many “non-state” actors and miscreants and helping so well to fuel international terrorism.

Also feel free to mention that Pakistan wants religiously entitled double standards.

All of the world’s eyes gaze at Pakistan, in the wake of the Indian elections to see what shred of true open, honesty and responsibility it can demonstrate to better its embarassing public image.

Pakistan has no intention of getting rid of the Taliban permananently, nor does it have any intention of getting rid of its terrorist proxy armies. Until it does, it is just buying time and lying to the west and the world. Pakistan’s lies will come through and the lies of its civilian and army leaders.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive
 

Umair
“So how about asking India to send in a few thousand soldiers to the combat zone in Afghanistan and do some fighting? Afterall, why should Pakistan risk everything?”

—OHHH! please don’t! we are ready to send tens of thousand soldiers not only to AF but also to all terror camps in PAK…

Posted by anup | Report as abusive
 

@Bloggers, interesting snippet of information about PA:

“The military, by some accounts, consumes 75 per cent of government revenues, controls a vast network of businesses and commercial ventures, and, in the minds of many Pakistanis, requires an ongoing state of tension with India in order to keep its tight grip on domestic politics and the national budget.”

Is it any wonder why the Punjabi Fauji Army in Pakistan does not want REAL peace with India, they need to keep average Pakistani’s stupid, using a hawkish Radical Islamic Political ideology, mixed with conspiracies and lies, they redirect any fingers pointed at them (the PA) towards India.

The true war in Pakistan will one day be the average awakened, enlightened Pakistani, waging their anger for being used lied to, against the Military Elite in Pakistan.

Skull crushing pressure and knee smashing scrutiny of the Pakistani Army Elite by the west, the IMF, the world and most of all, an awakened civilian population is the only thing that will save Pakistan from its parasitic army.

Lastly, may the refugees in SWAT, the little children, the families be protected from the treachery and the lies, radical Islamic militancy all created by the PA, also may all PA soldiers pawns return home safe to their families. The soldiers are completely innocent of the lieing, conniving and scheming of the Military Elite in Rawalpindi and Islamabad.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive
 

I believe that the hostilities between India and Pakistan – two nuclear neighbours is very similar to that between two brothers fighting for little piece of ancestoral land. Unless it is resolved amaicably, there is every possibility that they will end up loosing their hard earned freedom. If you look at the state of Pakistan, indications are that Pakistanis are gradually loosing their economic and political freedom.

It is not difficult to trace the root cause of all the problems. It is hugh defence spending beyond capacity, at a level it cannot afford.

What is the solution? People of both countries should start thinking on more pragmatic line. How can they do it? Look at the past history of the region going back to thousands of years, consider how the land was divided into smaller pieces all hostile towards each other. Who benefit from the chaos thus created? There is an invisible third party drivers which exploits the situation to their own end. Poor Indians and Pakistanis suffer but do not understand.

Economic and political forces will eventually force the people to change their minds and think towards the idea of merging and creating one unit. Before that happens people will have to go through lots of sufferings and uncertainties. Preferred option would be for well wisher
from both countries with clear thinking should pool together and work towards shaping the public opinion on the issue.

Posted by historyWatcher | Report as abusive
 

Umair
“So how about asking India to send in a few thousand soldiers to the combat zone in Afghanistan and do some fighting? Afterall, why should Pakistan risk everything?”

If India sends soldiers to Afghanistan, it will scare the $hit out of you. You can not even tolerate construction works by Indian companies.

Remember how frighten you are of imaginative 12 Indian Embassies in Afghanistan.

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive
 

Another secret Taliban PEACE-DEAL in the works by Army!

Betrayal of our trust, aid and hopes!

“The development will bring a temporary relief to the Pakistani army which says the level of resistance from the militants was beyond the expectations of the armed forces in the Taliban-controlled regions”

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=955 78&sectionid=351020401

Posted by David | Report as abusive
 

Women in battle against Taliban in Swat.

Army should take lessons from these women or let the women replace Kiyani.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnew s/asia/pakistan/5362294/Women-in-battle- against-Taliban-in-Swat.html

Posted by David | Report as abusive
 

I see bunch of biased indian morons on one side with their irrational, prejudice opinions and Umair on the other side trying to handle them and doing a good job. More power to you Umair.
The more I read these web sites, more prejudice I get about indians. I wish I had more time, so I could join Umair.

Posted by babag | Report as abusive
 

Umair says:
Lets leave the question of terrorist organizations like JuD and LeT for a while. Let me ask you a question, what do you guys think about Kashmir? Is part of India or Pakistan? secondly do you believe the Indian army atrocities in Kashmir? and the 80,000 people killed in Kashmir why did they die? Simply tell me, is Kashmir a dispute between India and Pakistan? We can discuss the anti-Indian terrorist groups later.

FORGET ABOUT TERRORSITS ORGANIZATIONS???

You would love that wouldnt u??
Maybe India should leave out Mumbai attacks and US should forget 9/11.

What I dont understand about Pakistanis is how do you guys even think that its acceptable to the world that one country has been instigating trouble around the world as a state policy??

Its not just the terrorists, the elected government chose to adopt terrorism as a state policy, the common man going to mosque donated money to organizations like LET & JUD, they sympathize with killers of innocent unarmed women and children.Your schools have had banners of “Hit and Hate India” for ages.

ITs this culture of hate which has been fostered so long that will bring down pakistan internally.

Regarding Kashmir and civilian casulaties?? how many of these 80000 were killed by militants? how many of these are Indian army personnel?? or they not count at all??

Its curious how Kashmir was never a problem in the first 40+ years after joining India and how suddenly after the end of Punjab millitancy (another curious case) there was an urgent need for freedom from India??

We are country that got its freedom through non violence and peace and we WILL NOT EVER negotiate with a band of foreign militants who pretend to speak for Kashmiris…

If you are so certain of Kashmiri will of leaving India why dont u ask then to adopt non viloent protests and civil desobidience movements?? probably because you know it will never happen..

I would like to see how many Kashmiris march to join the Taliban infested Bankrupt country of Pakistan?

Posted by indian1127 | Report as abusive
 

The most wretched thing a country can do kill its own people for money ($400 million). I wonder how pakistanis face the world . Dont they feel ashamed of themselves .

Posted by Gill | Report as abusive
 

Some Pakistani’s have a truly flawed thought process and completely lack logic or a sense of responsibility for one’s actions.

I never see Pakistani’s defending the innocent victims of Islamic terrorism in India.

I never see Pakistani’s admitting if they cease and desist all forms of agitation in Kashmir, that Kashmir would cease to be a problem and the Indian military would have not reason to be there at all.

I never see Pakistani’s admitting grief, sorrow or apologetic for the 1971 Bangladesh Genocide, where 2.5million hindus were genocided and 500,000 muslims were genocided as well.

I rarely see any Pakistani’s even admitting that their country has fomented and created many Islamic Terrorists and Militants, which have affected the UK, USA (911), India, Canada, France, Australia, Russia and dozens of other countries.

Why do some of you Pakistani’s have such a deluded and one-sided view of the world?

Why do some of you Pakistani’s feel entitled to do terrorism on others by using proxy armies? Let, JuD, etc?

Why does Pakistan repeatedly choose to keep India in an antagonistic state?

Why do you Pakistani’s always reject evidence and rather embrace a conspiracy story, especially made up lies and stories? (MUMBAI) It is actually quite amazing to the rest of the world, how easily lies and conspiracy stories are more believed in Pakistan, so much so to the point that people will actually ignore real evidence to the contrary and still blame others for transgressions and terrorism.

For example, during 911, a very educated Pakistani co-worker of mine refuted the claim that there were Islamic hijackers during 911, he and his countrymen all believed that the planes were controlled by remote control by Israel and the U.S. to start a war with the muslims, despite the mountain of electronic evidence directly showing Islamic Hijackers?

What is the world supposed to think of Pakistani’s and view them, when we see this pattern of peculiar outer worldly behavior?

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan exchanging missile technology with Iran to pay for the IPI oil pipeline?

Benazir was caught exchanging nuke technology with N Korea for missile technology. Just last month, Zardari made an unplanned trip to Iran for no apparent reason and no apparent achievement. After the trip, Iran tested a Shaheen-2 look-alike missile and IPI pipeline is on fast track? How is Pakistan financing IPI when living on loans and aids?

http://www.globalsecuritynewswire.org/gs n/nw_20090522_3721.php

Posted by David | Report as abusive
 

UMAIR .
Lets forget about LET and JAISH . Lets talk about Kashmir .
Well , according to your beloved UNITED NATIONS . The political rights and civil liberties score of indian kashmir is better than that of pakistan . In pakistani kashmir the situation is even worse .
Now please go and kill some more fellow countrymen for your p.i.m.p .

Posted by Gill | Report as abusive
 

Umair,

You’ve raised several points in your response to me and I’ll try to answer them here:

You contend that Afghan insurgents took sanctuary in Pakistan and that’s what has brought instability to Pakistan. While there maybe some truth to this, it is certainly not the whole story. The majority of Afghan insurgents fight in Afghanistan. How many Afghan insurgents have Pakistani security services caught inside Pakistan? The insurgency inside Pakistan has a very significant home-grown element to it. The sooner Pakistanis admit and understand this, the sooner they will be able to work on defeating it.

Next you suggest that materiel support has been inadequate. I would challenge this sincerely. The US has provided 12 billion dollars to date. Various other NATO governments have probably provided billions in additional aid. That does not even begin to account for training, spares and other forms of support that Pakistan gets from the West. Yet, we see little to no progress. The Pakistani services instead turn around and launch multi-billion dollar upgrades to the F-16 fleet, spend millions on missile and WMD upgrades, armour upgrades, etc. Worse still, they spend that money buying arms from a US rival: China. I do not buy this argument that Pakistan does not get enough support. It does. When we offer helicopters, Pakistani officials want to talk about F-16 upgrades. When we offer to train the Frontier Corps for counter-insurgency, they talk about air combat training. These are the kinds of discussions that lead us to believe that Pakistan is far from serious about equipping its forces and training them for the counter-insurgency. That’s why you are now seeing outright conditions on aid (and where it’s not outright it is implicit) that will not allow Pakistan to divert its focus from the CI mission. It’s sad that Pakistan has to be treated like an easily distracted schoolboy but it only has itself to blame for that.

As for the export controls in Canada, that’s of course a complicated matter. Having been burned a few times, Canada has much stricter controls than many other countries. However, in the Pakistani case it is working its way through, and maybe there will be some partial exemptions. The main concern we have with Pakistan is proliferation of technology. In the past, NVGs, weapons, explosives, etc donated or sold to Pakistan by other NATO countries have ended up in the hands of Taliban fighters. The last thing our government would want is canadian made technology being used by fighters targeting Canadian troops. And given Pakistan’s record on the security of items it has been given in the past there are understandably some concerns.

Last point about the RC-IED (remote controlled IED) strike. It’s unfortunate but we’ve seen similar tactics employed by insurgents in Afghanistan (perhaps now Pakistanis will begin to understand why our patience is so short for those who hit and run back across the line). In this case, I think it’s a valid question to ask if casualties could have been avoided had the troops been in an armoured vehicle or a MRAV instead of a regular truck or pick-up. What’s the point of parking all those APCs along the Indian border when you have guys dying in Swat for lack of armoured protection? Makes no sense to me.

Posted by Keith | Report as abusive
 

@Even basic equipment like Night vision gogles are not provided to Pakistan.
-by Umair to Keith

Umair: Where there is a will there is a way. Crooks like Taliban have access to NVG, but not PA. Order them cheap from the bazaar in Peshawar.
If you can eat grass to make bomb, I am sure you are resourceful enough to arrange NVG for your needy soldiers. But the question has been that PA does not fight during the day (until recently).NVG are available in free market in NWFP. It is the “WILL’ that has been in question. Also I am wondering if the planes and other weapons can be bought from China, cannot you buy NVG if US is helping in your war on terror.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

Bagbag writes: “I see bunch of biased indian morons on one side with their irrational, prejudice opinions and Umair on the other side trying to handle them and doing a good job. More power to you Umair.”

One liar for another. Looks like most of Pakistan is made up of liars who stand up for each other. Telling the truth is not bias. We are presenting our side of the explanation. You guys present yours. If our views appear prejudiced and biased to your jaundiced eyes, so be it.

“The more I read these web sites, more prejudice I get about indians. I wish I had more time, so I could join Umair.”

Why don’t come and join us? We can knock some sense into your head as well. Umair is the only one and unfortunately he seems to have nothing left in his head. May be can you can share that little brain of yours as well. You don’t need much time for lying, the way we are seeing everywhere. Sensible and rational Pakistanis seem to be a very rare species. That’s unfortunate. Everyone else is either a militant or is in military uniform.

 

Keith
The insurgency in Pakistan has a home-grown element but you are missing an important point. I would like to bring it to your attention that the Pashtuns are the largest ethinic group in Afghanistan. Their cousins this side of the border mostly live in FATA and NWFP. So foreign military presence in Afghanistan, the porous durand line border which is not even properly recognized and people move across, have married and have relatives both sides of the durand line. All these factors make things very complicated and result in fueling insurgency in Pakistan.
Regarding the material support, yes being part of the coalition, Pakistan did recieve coalition support funds. But Pakistan offered airbases and logistic support and feuling facilities for aircrafts. Also, can you calculate the economic losses to Pakistan due to this war? Pak-NATO ties have recently expanded significantly, but still there are many shortcomings. For example, the issue of F-16s is a classic case, Pakistan had paid for them in cash, but did not recieve the jets due to sanctions. Was it not Pakistan’s right to recieve the jets it had paid for? Again the existing squadrons of F-16 remained unoperational due to lack of spares for long time. Yet, Pakistan has always been accused of proliferation. These are vital issues for Pakistan, we cannot turn a blind eye to our conventional capability.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

@The US officials are very fond of lectures i guess? no one has the right to interfere in Pakistan’s internal matters. We dont need lectures on how democracy works, how to choose among friends and enemies or how to fight wars and make peace.
–by Umair

Umair,
Thought, I share an article from the DAWN on the democracy and learning from others, and in this case learning from India.

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn -content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/colu mnists/i-a-rehman-the-indian-election-15 9

Quote
“PAKISTANIS should find a proper study of India’s latest general election quite rewarding — that is if they can abandon their utterly irrational resolve to learn neither from friends nor from foes. One of the most peculiar features of the Pakistani mindset is an incredibly strong sense of self-righteousness.”

“As the chosen community we do not have to learn from any other people. Indeed, the world, especially the non-Muslim part of it, has nothing to offer us. The ‘godless communists’ apart, we ignore even the believers in the West because of their ‘obscene practices’ and their high divorce rates. If a country had questioned our credentials to lead the Muslim ummah or failed to vote in our favour at a world forum it was to be put down in the list of permanent enemies.”

“In this regard, India has been selected for the worst possible treatment. Since we have designated this closest neighbour as our most inveterate foe, the question of looking at its ways of dealing with issues of statecraft, development, public welfare et al simply does not arise. So strong is the Pakistani elite’s aversion to India that it barely acknowledges its South Asian identity. Most Pakistanis would like to believe that Pakistan is located somewhere between Iraq and Saudi Arabia.”

The punch line is this:
“THE GREATEST MISFORTUNE OF THE PAKISTANI PEOPLE HAS BEEN THAT THE REPEATED DISRUPTIONS OF THE DEMOCRATIC JOURNEY BY AUTHORITARIAN ADVENTURERS HAVE DEPRIVED THEM OF THE JOY OF OWNING THE STATE. THE INDIAN ELECTION NEEDS TO BE STUDIED IN PAKISTAN IN ORDER TO SETTLE THE QUESTION OF THE STATE’S OWNERSHIP — WHETHER IT BELONGS TO AN OPPRESSIVE, INCOMPETENT AND CORRUPT ELITE OR THE DUMB, EXPLOITED MULTITUDE.”

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

Keith you said:

“When we offer to train the Frontier Corps for counter-insurgency, they talk about air combat training. These are the kinds of discussions that lead us to believe that Pakistan is far from serious about equipping its forces and training them for the counter-insurgency.”

Keith, I think and truly believe that Pakistan has no real enemies. It is seeking to create artificial ones, after 911, AKA the Taliban, to rattle the U.S. and the west and co-erce them to giving the Pak Army money, munitions, arms, missiles and jet fighters. After the 12Billion dollars of free support given to Pakistan, there is no real hammer or blowback against Pakistani trained terrorists, the Taliban or the homegrown proxy armies. The PA and ISI realized that they can extort billions while pretending to be friends with the west, while using religious zealots to further the Islamic expansion, by terrorism, hook or crook, lying, cheating into the Indian subcontinent. Different tools are used constantly to keep the false Jihad hot and alive in the religious mindslave’s brain, those tools are lies, hatred and aggression against India and the west over Kashmir or any other perceived religious threat against Islam itself.

This now so called offensive against the Taliban will in the end, be another ploy to store and upgrade the PA Army in an attempt to keep military parity with India, at a time, where the Pakistani treasury is bankrupt and its people are starving.

The grey matter in uniforms have decided their way of life, their business model, their existence is more important than the average Pakistani. The average Pakistani has been suffering carnage on the streets of Pakistani and paying for the misdeeds of its army.

Why does PA need to upgrade its F-16′s to kill a bunch of guys in Black Turbans? Right, its actually to use the Taliban or Militant threat to line the pockets of the Pak Army, ISI and increase its military capability through the recent fundraising.

In short, the liars in uniform are continuing their work to build a constant military deterrent against India, possible to initiate a conflict, in the mean time, the Pak Army is merely in “Fundraising Mode”, to do that requires a gentle appearing civilian leader (Zardari) and an army that “seems” to be co-operating, at least for now against Islamic Militants(current Taliban offsive), but ONE thing, the PA and ISI WILL not do, is declare India a non-enemy.

Pakistan Army and ISI is hell-bent on maintaining India as an enemy to maintain political and economic control over its civilian population for personal gain, while its average samosa vendors barely get by making a living, or turn to committing terrorism for money for their family members, like Ajmal Kasab did.

Once the civilian population wakes up, the Pak Army will reap what it has sown, the Pak people will detest their military, and Militants will have made in roads to all the major cities. Anarchy is already setting into Pakistan, from Karachi to Peshawar.

Again, after receiving all this money, the PA will be asking for more money, while making thinly veiled threats of unleashing chaos on the world, if the PA does not get more beggar bowl money.

The money that Pakistan has gotten since the Obama admin. came to power is best spent on training its police and army against Urban Warfare and if it does not, as Pakistan spirals into chaos and anarchy, all the stockpiled munitions to fight India will be useless, as the PA and its police will be inept, ill-equipped and caught off guard from the impending onslaught of urban warfare and eventually a civil war along ethnic lines.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive
 

A Cold Start for Hot Wars? The Indian Army’s New Limited War Doctrine

In response to the perceived inability of the Indian military to leverage its conventional superiority to end Pakistan’s “proxy war” in Kashmir, the Indian Army announced a new offensive doctrine in 2004 intended to allow it to mobilize quickly and undertake limited retaliatory attacks on its neighbor, without crossing Pakistan’s nuclear threshold. This Cold Start doctrine marks a break with the fundamentally defensive military doctrines that India has employed since gaining independence in 1947. Requiring combined arms operating jointly with the Indian Air Force, Cold Start represents a significant advance in India’s conventional military capabilities. Yet, despite the Indian Army’s intentions, it risks provoking or escalating a crisis on the subcontinent that could breach the nuclear threshold. Recent military exercises and associated organizational changes indicate that although the Indian Army has made progress toward developing an operational Cold Start capability, particularly in the area of network-centric warfare, the doctrine remains in the experimental stage. Nevertheless, this is a development that deserves further study. As the Indian Army enhances its ability to achieve a quick military decision against Pakistan, the political pressure to employ such a strategy in a crisis will increase — with potentially catastrophic results.

http://belfercenter.ksg.harvard.edu/publ ication/17972/cold_start_for_hot_wars_th e_indian_armys_new_limited_war_doctrine. html?breadcrumb=…

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan Army doctrine says ‘Attack First’

The Pakistan Army follows a policy of ‘offensive defence’ and it is all the more important to maintain a conventional capability. Given the cold start doctrine illustrate using IBGs(Integrated Battle Groups) and assaulting Pakistan from 6 to 8 fronts. For Pakistan weapons like F-16s and AWACS give a considerable advantage to counter Indian plans. Better intelligence and mobilization by Pakistan Army and ISI will ensure all Indian threats are neutralized and eliminated.

http://www.stratpost.com/pakistan-army-d octrine-says-attack-first

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan Army doctrine says ‘Attack First’

Surrender later.

Posted by indian1127 | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan Army doctrine says ‘Attack First’

Surrender later,
agree to a tactical ceasefire,
escalate the conflict,
cross the nuclear threshold immediately thereafter,
turn the tables and carry out a nuclear strike,
destroy the enemy, Mission accomplished.

Men at their best
Pakistan Army!

Posted by Pakistani7211 | Report as abusive
 

Umair, just confirmed it, the PA army and ISI have a doctrine of illegally attacking others, unprovoked.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive
 

@The most wretched thing a country can do kill its own people for money ($400 million). I wonder how pakistanis face the world . Dont they feel ashamed of themselves.
- Posted by Gill

Gill, the trouble is Pak leaders after getting help from “Friends of Pakistan” have such a sense of satisfaction and call it as their achievement. Such is the the state of affairs that instead of treating these occasions as the “last rites”, they treat it as some party. This is called addiction and Industry.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

Umair,

Do read the paper on Cold Start in its entirety. It’s one I read a while back and it’s a little dated now. But you missed part of the conclusion:

‘At present, Cold Start remains more of a concept than a reality. Recent military exercises and associated organizational changes indicate that even though the Indian Army has made progress toward developing an operational Cold Start capability, much work remains.’

The Indian Army is no where close to fully operationalizing the concept. And its ridiculous to constantly call Cold Start a threat when the PA already has significantly faster mobilization times. And the PA could simply respond by making better use of forward operating bases, better pre-positioning, etc.

Nevertheless, as I pointed out in the other thread, an Indian attack is solely predicated as a response to Pakistani actions, specifically Pakistan’s support of cross-border terrorism. Stop that and there’s no threat of an attack. It could not be simpler than that.

Posted by Keith | Report as abusive
 

@Benazir was caught exchanging nuke technology with N Korea for missile technology.
-by David

David, she was going to China at that time and here comes A-Q Khan and demands ftom her: “can you just hop over to North Korea and asks from them the Blue prints of Missile technology.”. She says hope over? and that she does not know about the technical part etc. and she was told they know it all and Benazir had no way to say NO and rest is history. I am trying my best but cannot imagine that some crazy Lunatic scientist walks up to an Indian PM with such a demand. Such is the hold of miltary and love of Nuke.
“Nuke ne hame diwana bana diya, warna hum bee aadmi the kaam ke”

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

“In late 1993 Benazir Bhutto, then prime minister of Pakistan, carried critical nuclear data on CDs in her overcoat to Pyongyang in 1993 and brought back North Korea’s missile information”

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_ id=9434

Posted by David | Report as abusive
 

Canadian troops
- Posted by Keith
That’s what is going to happen if not already is the case. Last month I saw a picture of a bunch of Taliban thugs with AK47s riding a Hummer. I froze.
By pumping billions of $$$, for a short term respite from Taliban, the west has done a great disservice to its men in uniform. The aid money will go to china towards purchases from military hardware for PA to computers for their urban elite. The rural poor from where Taliban recruits its jihadists get nothing.US is waiting to cheer the PA success crushing Taliban and AQ. The wily Punjabi army knows more than that, losing a strategic asset vis a vis US, the Taliban card, is the last thing they will ever risk. I hear your loud scream..Wait a minute what about all the death, destruction and mayhem going on? I feel your pain. welcome to Pakistan. It is the only life they know. Why shd Punjabis care for a bunch of Pasthuns who live in caves anyway.
Just read David’s link posted below, apparently not much is happening there on ground per BBC report. I won’t be surprised if , in a couple of days, PA declares a premature victory and withdraws promptly. Its not our war, remember, Paks were loud and clear. Sure, there will be yet another peace agreement on the sidelines. So, US and NATO will pick it up from exactly where they left it a month or so ago.

 

Umair: The insurgency in Pakistan has a home-grown element but you are missing an important point. I would like to bring it to your attention that the Pashtuns are the largest ethinic group in Afghanistan. Their cousins this side of the border mostly live in FATA and NWFP. So foreign military presence in Afghanistan, the porous durand line border which is not even properly recognized and people move across, have married and have relatives both sides of the durand line. All these factors make things very complicated and result in fueling insurgency in Pakistan.

Response: Umair, there is a disconnect in your logic there. Yes there are large Pashtun populations on both sides of the line. And Pashtun culture and tradition can result in belligerent behaviour, but it’s a leap to suggest that Afghans are heavily involved in the insurgency in Pakistan. They aren’t. Can you find many stats that Afghans are involved in Pakistan? If you do please post them, it’d be news to me that’s for sure. Most Afghans who decide to fight would rather kill the infidels in their backyard instead of running off to a different country to fight. Indeed Pashtunwali in its strictest form would demand that they fight NATO not Pakistan.

Also, the Afghan insurgency is good relief valve for Pakistan which sends all its brainwashed angry young men to fight in Afghanistan. If Afghanistan was not a theatre of war the insurgency in Pakistan would be much, much worse. Those pathans would decide that aiding their Swati and Waziri brethren would be better than doing nothing and your security services would have a bigger problem on their hands.

Umair: Regarding the material support, yes being part of the coalition, Pakistan did recieve coalition support funds. But Pakistan offered airbases and logistic support and feuling facilities for aircrafts. Also, can you calculate the economic losses to Pakistan due to this war? Pak-NATO ties have recently expanded significantly, but still there are many shortcomings. For example, the issue of F-16s is a classic case, Pakistan had paid for them in cash, but did not recieve the jets due to sanctions. Was it not Pakistan’s right to recieve the jets it had paid for? Again the existing squadrons of F-16 remained unoperational due to lack of spares for long time. Yet, Pakistan has always been accused of proliferation. These are vital issues for Pakistan, we cannot turn a blind eye to our conventional capability.

Response: Correct me if I am wrong but the PAF got the F-16s eventually with compensation and some free upgrade works for the airframe life that was burned? But again the question I have posed before: Is it correct for Pakistan to be buying jets with aid money that’s being given to equip Pakistani forces for the counter-insurgency mission? It’s like me giving you money to buy a dozen mini-vans and you go out and blow it all on a sports car. Would you expect me to then give you more money again? That’s why now Pakistan is facing strict aid conditions everywhere. That has nothing to do with proliferation or anything else. It has everything to do with what Pakistan’s donors perceive to be an absolute inability on Pakistan’s part to follow instructions and spend allocated funds on what they are allocated.

When it comes to accusations of proliferation…they aren’t just accusations. Perhaps you’d like to meet the parents of a young Canadian soldier and explain to them how it could be that their son got killed by a US made 84mm anti-armour recoilless rifle that is found in the inventory of only one neighbouring country. And that’s one personal example. The amount of stuff that we’ve found that’s originated from Pakistan….sometimes they still have Pak serial numbers or Pakistani packaging, is incredible. I am not going to suggest that Pakistan actively does this. But it’s quite clear that the Pakistani services have poor security that results in some leakages. Normally that would not be a concern. But when those weapons are being trained on our own troops there is understandably some concern. And its not just Canada, the US and most of Europe is heading that way too. If Pakistan improves its record on security then perhaps the arms dealing relationship can improve. That’s not even to mention all the nuclear, missile, chem-bio proliferation..

And if you wonder why the standards are different for India….look at their record. The Indians have a remarkably good record, not just on missile and nuclear stuff but on all tech transfer. They won’t re-export (Chinese missiles to Iran for example) and their services just don’t seem to have as high a rate of leakage. And more importantly whatever they lose track off is probably being used in India against Indians. Those guns aren’t being used against NATO troops in Afghanistan. So the standards for access to such systems and platforms will be different as long as the level of security that’s practised is different and as long as the result of those security lapses could potentially be NATO forces.

Posted by Keith | Report as abusive
 

Keith,

You will find out soon that Umair and Pakistani’s like him have fixed world view and they never move from it. After some time, in some other blog he will say the same thing that he is saying here. All your detailed explanation will be ignored. We have been dealing with it for a long time, not only here, but also in other forums. If you prove your point, these guys will go silent for sometime and then come back with literally the same words that they said earlier. It is a frustrating experience. Their emotions overwhelm any reasoning and prevents them from admitting the faults on their side.

 

Umair,
I don’t see you responding to my questions. I guess lost for words. Now when I have explained to you our position on Kashmir, why don’t you explain your position on terrorism?
Everyone says if Pakistan stops supporting terrorist activities everything is going to be fine. But i guess if they do that then they will lose their identity. After all anyone who supports, trains and nurtures terrorists himself is no better than terrorists.

Posted by Aman | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan isn’t on the brink, and articles about “Pakistan on the brink” have been regularly published since 1947.

 

Keith
“there is a disconnect in your logic there. Yes there are large Pashtun populations on both sides of the line. And Pashtun culture and tradition can result in belligerent behaviour, but it’s a leap to suggest that Afghans are heavily involved in the insurgency in Pakistan. They aren’t. Can you find many stats that Afghans are involved in Pakistan? If you do please post them, it’d be news to me that’s for sure.”

-Keith, I was not implying that Afghans are involved, what I am trying to state is that presence and occupation of foreign troops in Afghanistan incites the Pakistani residents of FATA and NWFP to fight against both Pakistan Army and NATO/US. I am trying to state that durand line is porous, people have relatives on both sides of the border. They are Pushtuns and its like the same country although both Pakistan and Afghanistan are seperate countries. But there are factors that fuel insurgency in Pakistan.
One more thing, I was chatting with a friend who serves in PA as a Captain in the ordnance corps, you tell me about weapons proliferation/ leakages. I can tell you about the sophisticated weapons caches the PA and FC regularly confiscates from the insurgents. these weapons are sometimes Russian, also the insurgents are some times Uzbeks, from Central Asian states, even to some extent Iran and Russia is involved, while definitely there is an Indian hand as well. Now how is that taking place under the nose of US/ NATO forces from Afghan side of the border? We all need tighter controls. I am wiondering where the heck does Taliban get mines, IEDs etc and other sniper rifles, these very weapons are causing casualties among PA. And there is some source where the insurgents are acquiring the weapons.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Aman here are the questions you put forward to me one by one and my responses:

Is having LeT and JuD a part of your defensive startegy?
-I am an ordinary Pakistani, not Pakistan’s defence minister or Army chief. Probably Pakistan Army did think that best way to take on a bigger India was through proxy war and suck India into a long low intensity conflict tie down a large portion of Indian Army in Kashmir and keep up the pressure.

Or is Mumbai style attacks defensive in nature?
-Big question is who carried out Mumbai attack? it was horrific, and I have seen many terrorist incidents in Islamabad/Rawalpindi in last two years. Why are you asking me, I myself have merely survived bombings. ordinary pakistanis are victims of terrorism just like ordinary Indians. and yes, if there was any official Pakistani backing, Mumbai attacks were definitely offensive. But no one has so far proved official Pakistani involvement in Mumbai attacks.

Or is it that you consider Kargil misadventure a defensive strategy?
-Kargil type operation was a plan thought out by Pakistan Army many years back. PA had planned such an operation from very long time and wanted to liberate Kashmir from Indian control. When Gen. Musharraf became Army chief, and assumed command of the Army, the Kargil files were pulled out of dust and the operation was given a go-ahead. Analyst say the plan was brilliant, but implementation was poor. Pakistan could not gain full advantage and risked diplomatic isolation and had to withdraw. Again probably Kargil was the result of Pakistan Army strategy of offensive defense.

Or the attack on Indian parliament defensive posturing on Pakistan’s part?
-Again the same thing, my opinion doesnt really matter. the attack on Indian parliament followed after the attack on Jammu Kashmir state Assembly in Sri Nagar probably. Again the same problem, unless Kashmir dispute is resolved these types of challenges will keep emerging. You atleast are honest to admit Kashmir is a dispute, many Indians say Kashmir is a non-issue. Every single terrorist strike an devery single India-Pakistan confrontation highlights Kashmir as a dispute. Its settlement will significantly improve Indo-Pak relations.

Is it morally right on your part to support LeT and JuD and then shed crocodile tears when Mumbai attacks happen?
-i have nothing to do with JuD, LeT, I do not support or oppose them. I want to ask you is it morally right for India to occupy Kashmir? was it morally right for India to intervene in the Pakistan’s political crisis of 1971 and dismember Pakistan’s Eastern half? Who will decide the morals here? you cant be the judge and the jury yourself.

You keep saying Kashmir is a problem, can you suggest a solution which might be acceptable to all the parties?
-well, the problem is Kashmir has only ONE justifiable solution. That is withdrawal of Indian troops and plebiscite, implementation of UN security council resolutions on Kashmir. But the thing is India does not accept that. Many solutions are unacceptable to Pakistan, so lets start the composite dialogue and first identify the solutions that are unacceptable. Than concentrate on those that could work, we have to take Kashmiris onboard as well.

After all this Aman, I think the fatal mistake Indira Gandhi made in 1971 was to intervene in Pakistan’s political crisis and impose war on East Pakistan. She thought she would weaken and destroy Pakistan. does that seem to be the case to you today?

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

“suck India into a long low intensity conflict tie down a large portion of Indian Army in Kashmir and keep up the pressure.”

–>.Finally, the truth comes out from an average military class Pakistani, Pakistan was provoking India into a war. Pakistani Govt itself uses terrorism against India.

“if there was any official Pakistani backing, Mumbai attacks were definitely offensive. But no one has so far proved official Pakistani involvement in Mumbai attacks.”

–>Complicit against terrorism, grown, supported and fueled by Pakistan itself.

“-i have nothing to do with JuD, LeT, I do not support or oppose them.”

–>Typical of most Pakistani’s, complicit with terrorism and in part, give tacit approval of terrorist acts, by not being against it.

“After all this Aman, I think the fatal mistake Indira Gandhi made in 1971 was to intervene in Pakistan’s political crisis and impose war on East Pakistan.”

–>Wrong, Pakistan Genocided 2.5 million Hindus and 500,000 Muslims, yes it genocided 3 million of its own citizens,even Saddam Hussein was not this bad, India was the only regional power, which had the ability and moral core to prevent further genocide at the hands of the Pakistani Army. Strategically, also, India had every right to protect its territorial integrity.

In short, Kashmir is a non-issue, Kashmir, like many other land problems around the world, are caused by the Imperialistic British occupiers, who divide land along lines, which will cause further conflicts, this is and always has been their strategy to plunder a land, colonize and leave it divided, once they are done.

In short, Kashmir, all it and included most of Pakistan, legally belongs to India, before the Moghuls and British carved it up to their liking.

Therefore, a country only 60 years old has no legitimacy, a country 7,000 years old has 1167% times the legitimacy that Pakistan has.

Pakistan only exists because of the benevolence of the U.S. and U.K. who for their own selfish reasons wanted to keep India “contained”.

India is 7,000 years old my friend, legally India has much more legitimacy to have its borders at pre-moghul status. Hindus ARE your blood ancestors before the slaughters were inflicted on the hindus in the subcontinent.

As you justify Pakistani’s existence, you also justify the existence of Israel. Please, no double standards.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive
 

C. Christine Fair THE WASHINGTON QUARTERLY j APRIL 2009 151
Time for Sober Realism
………page4-5………A second reason for Washington’s failures has been its perplexing approach to the varied militant groups operating from and within Pakistan, including the Afghan and Pakistani Taliban ensconced in Pakistani territory. In the early phase of the global war on terrorism, the United States focused its cooperation with Pakistan on efforts to eliminate al Qaeda but did not insist that Pakistan shut down its support for all militant groups including the Taliban and those groups operating in India and Kashmir. Washington only episodically insisted on action against the so-called Kashmiri groups and usually did so only in response to particularly outrageous attacks in India (e.g., the 2001 parliament attack, the 2002 Kaluchak massacre, and the 2008 Mumbai attack).

Washington did not a ggressively insist that Pakistan act against the Afghan Taliban entrenched in itsterritory until 2007 even though the Taliban have maintained high levels of violence, including suicide attacks, since 2005. Not surprisingly, Pakistan did not remand a high-value Taliban asset until the summer of 2007 and did so only reluctantly and after sustained pressure from Washington in light of mounting Afghan, NATO, and U.S. casualties in Afghanistan.
http://www.twq.com/09april/docs/09apr_Fa ir.pdf

Myra

Pak as a nation should eliminate all terrorism, insistence on surgical excision of a few groups, say west centric ones, is impractical and not to mention undesirable. The large pool of warriors in those leftover groups can switch loyalties quickly and in no time the situation turns back to square one all over again..Sadly, the pledge for Global War on Terrorism has lost its meaning sometime in the past. As a result everybody will pay, thats my point.

 

Pakistani7211 say:

Pakistan Army doctrine says ‘Attack First’

Surrender later,
agree to a tactical ceasefire,
escalate the conflict,
cross the nuclear threshold immediately thereafter,
turn the tables and carry out a nuclear strike,
destroy the enemy, Mission accomplished.

Men at their best
Pakistan Army!

1947, 1965, 1971 & Kargill

We have seen it all before but what really surpises me is the masochistic perversion of Pak Army

Posted by indian1127 | Report as abusive
 

thought she would weaken and destroy Pakistan. does that seem to be the case to you today?

- Posted by Umair

thats precisely what it seems today much more than then

 

Pakistan, is like a bad marriage of the punjab province, being the male and the remaining provinces being the many wives.

The many wives of Pakistan have been leading an abusive, often one-sided relationship with their dominating Punjab province. The Punjabi province takes more than it gives back and like a terrible husband mistreats all of its wives. Its wives are going to one-day want justice and equality, those things which Punjabi, through its ruthless army rule, subjugates its wives.

When Punjab’s many wives want a divorce, it will appear in the form of civil war. Punjab’s many wives will want justice at some point.

It will be unavoidable, unless the Punjab Army focus, its false doctrines, false propaganda and its parasitic existence drained from the blood of average Pakistani’s ceases.

The PA must change its twisted, nefariously unfair and shame-based ways.

The real question and topic of this blog should be:

“HOW LONG CAN PUNJAB KEEP ITS GRIP ON THE SURROUNDING PROVINCES, BEFORE THEY REVOLT and CIVIL WAR TAKES OVER?”.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive
 

Umair
@i have nothing to do with JuD, LeT, I do not support or oppose them.
—Trying to play non-aligned here, Huh?

@ having LeT and JuD a part of your defensive startegy? I am an ordinary Pakistani, not Pakistan’s defence minister or Army chief. Probably Pakistan Army did think that best way to take on a bigger India was through proxy war and suck India into a long low intensity conflict tie down a large portion of Indian Army in Kashmir and keep up the pressure

–Go ahead you are tasting the consequences of one tool–Taliban. Wait and see what LeT does to you and is doing to you while you stay there watching ad mumbling the way you are doing. You are a religious fanatic, a terrorist sympatheizer and support those who kill my country men.

–by qu

@I want to ask you is it morally right for India to occupy Kashmir?
–That goes back to the root why India did. That has been discussed. Kashmir issue is an issue that needs to be death with–plain and simple. Do you have such clarity about terrorist.
@I am an ordinary Pakistani, not Pakistan’s defence minister or Army chief.
–Oh so you remembered that you are not a minister finally. Give a statement in the capacity of an ordinary Pakistani then like you have been doing 24/87 on other issues and lose your tongue over LeT.

Nutshell you are a confused man, unsympatetic to Indian innocents, a supporter of Pakistan’s pro-terrorism policies. I ahve heard you saying that you folow Islamic code and Islamic peaceful. Those who follow your kind of Islamic code are the souls on whom relies these terrorists for their survival. If you are trying to be shrewd naionalist watching Pakistani interets, you are digging grave for your country. I do not bbuy this on the brink/collapse in 6 months forcasts, but get ready for violent times ahead. So far you have feeded to negihbours, get ready to taste it.

Whi Indian Army is in Kashmir?—Are you brain dead. Why your army is in SWAT and doing shelling. Because there is taliban there. For us, it is Let/JeM/HuM there. The difference is you are kilingyour own creation, while IA is killing your creation in Kashmir.

Pathetic! Remember: India can give you the medicine you are giving to India and make a hell in Pakistan and keep you so busy that you will regret the day you started this covert war.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

@Rajeev,

India is a completely loving and peaceful dove. Just imagine for a moment, if Pakistan was next to the U.S., just for arguements sake, Pakistan would unequivocally, with damn absolute certainty be annihilated by the U.S., bar none.

The U.S. would have carpet bombed the crap out of all the proxy training camps, just look what they did to Saddam’s Army, they smashed the living daylights out of them in 3 days.

I don’t know who some of these Pakistani’s are, keeping antagonism with India, they could hope for a nicer neighbour.

If the neighbour was Russia, for arguements sake instead of the U.S., they would have flattened Pakistan beyond recovery. Afghans and Pathans are much tougher and survived.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive
 

@Umair,
I understand you are not Pakistan’s Defense Minister, but what is shocking is you implicit and explicit support for terrorist activities.
You see, you have yourself said that LeT and JuD gives Pakistan a strategic advantage and thus Pakistan wants to keep them. So my question was to you rather than to your ministers. Do you denounce terrorist organistaions like LeT and JuD or not?

On Bangladesh, all Indians who talk of genocide forget that it was not the genocide which made India move its army but the large influx of refugees whose burden India was not able to take. India didn’t have a economy like it has now and infrastructure was severly under developed with international aid as good as nil because of its non-aligned policies and Pakistan’s proximity to US.

On Kashmir, as I have already said who is liberating whom is a contentious issue. Did you know that the state of Jammu and Kashmir in Indian Administered Kashmir hhas always had a chief minister who is from Kashmir itself? International monitoring institutes say that the estimated dislocation of people from Kashmir (Pandits) has been in the range of 250000 to 450000. Shouldn’t they be returned to their homes?

And did you know that the portion that Pakistan has with itself is because tribals from NWFP at the behest and support from Pakistani army forced their way into the valley after which the erstwhile Maharaja of Kashmir asked India for help and agreed to accession to India like many other princely states in India under Lord Mountbatten’s observation? US observers at that time said that PAshtun tribals from Pakistan raided Kashmir for plunder under the pretext of Muslim brotherhood but while raiding did not made any diffrence between Hindus, Sikhs and Muslims.

Can you tell me why was the Kashmir region plunged into terrorism after peaceful existence for 40 years after independence? The answer is Pakistan wanted to avenge the creation of Bangladesh. So it first tried sponsoring terrorism in Punjab which failed and then took up Kashmir. In Punjab India successfully thwarted terrorism through strict measures but in Kashmir it can not do so because if they are strict then it will be percieved that India is against its muslim minority. Its a catch 22 situation for India in in Kashmir and pakistan is taking advantage of this.

And did you know that Kashmir as a state gets the highest aid from the Indian government in terms of resource allocation and no I am not talking about army there. It is mainy times better off than some of the large populous states in India. India has not divided the original state after independence.

On the other hand Pakistan has ceded Aksai Chin to China. And additionally carved out Northern areas out of the erstwhile princely state. Also, the Northern areas’ citizens do not have any representative neither in Pakistan or in Kasmir and thus have no fundamental rights. Also, the so called prime minister and president of Pak administered Kashmir are not actually what their name suggests as they have to compulsorily sign an affidavit of allegiance to Kashmir’s accession to Pakistan.

Pakistan insists Kashmir is a part of Pakistan since it is predominantly Muslim, while India insists that it is a part of India as the Maharaja signed the agreement of accession to India.

I would like to reiterate that differences can be sorted out through dialouge. Terrorism and offensive posturing is not the matured way of dealing with differences. Just the way you question the Indians on the policies of its government. Similarly you can not wash your hands off what your government does. If you believe a policy is flawed you can raise objection to it.

Posted by Aman | Report as abusive
 

The British divided the 2 regions long ago, also the so called North-West Frontier Province (NWFT) and locally Waziristan should have been given to Afghans in 1993 such as Hong Kong to China.

Pakistan is interfering in regional politics of Afghanistan and India to further achieve more and more funding from the Western Society.

It is time for Pakistan to reap the fruits of their own misconducts since the 70’s. Or accept the history and favor division of its boarders in order to have the cancer of fundamentalist divided to one side.

Posted by Carl | Report as abusive
 

Aman
“Do you denounce terrorist organistaions like LeT and JuD or not?”

-Since you are insisting again and again on the same question, let me ask you first if you also denounce the Indian Army occupation and atrocities in Kashmir? So long you denounce Indian Army occupation of Kashmir, I will definitely denounce LeT and JuD. Its as simple as that.

I too agree that meaningful dialogue must take place and all terrorism in Kashmir, including state-sponsored terrorism by Indian Army should stop once and for all.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Umair,
So you are saying that you train terrorists because India claims Kashmir as its integral part.
Or are LeT and JuD part of your army?
Don’t you think its a bit childish?
May be we can also send terrorists in Pakistan and say its because Pak army is there in Kashmir.

As I have already said, who is occupying what is based on which side of the border you are standing. That is not a reason for anyone to support terrorism. As I pointed out earlier, there are regions in Pakistan (Northern areas where people don’t have any fundamental rights as they neither lie in Pak Administered Kashmir nor in Pakistan.

On the basis or reciprocity that you want, since Indian army is stationed in Kashmir, you have Pak army stationed there too. We are forced to have more paramilitary troops there as you keep sending militants there. If you stop that Indian troops will move back to their barracks. For you to understand this simple perspective I will give you the live example of Swat. Since your troops are there and bombing the terrorist hide outs it doesn’t mean you are a terrorist in your own state. You are fighting terrorism. Similalry Indian troops are fighting terrorism.

For now treat the LoC as LoC and then lets discuss as to how to solve the issue. Sending troops inside Indian held teritory or sending terrorists anywhere in India is not the right approach.

Posted by Aman | Report as abusive
 

Aman
“So you are saying that you train terrorists because India claims Kashmir as its integral part.
Or are LeT and JuD part of your army?
Don’t you think its a bit childish?”

-Aman, the question of Let, JuD is very tricky and we could keep on arguing for hours. Let and JuD are definitely not part of Pakistan Army, they are not a regiment of Pakistan Army.

“As I pointed out earlier, there are regions in Pakistan (Northern areas where people don’t have any fundamental rights as they neither lie in Pak Administered Kashmir nor in Pakistan.”

-Where did you get this from? There are direct flights by PIA from Islamabad to Gilgit and Skardu, northern areas residents have specific quotas in universities, government jobs, armed forces in Pakistan. they are Pakistani citizens and enjoy full benefits of Pakistani citizenship.

“On the basis or reciprocity that you want, since Indian army is stationed in Kashmir, you have Pak army stationed there too. We are forced to have more paramilitary troops there as you keep sending militants there. If you stop that Indian troops will move back to their barracks. For you to understand this simple perspective I will give you the live example of Swat. Since your troops are there and bombing the terrorist hide outs it doesn’t mean you are a terrorist in your own state. You are fighting terrorism. Similalry Indian troops are fighting terrorism.”

-Aman, you are making a very big mistake by comparing the situation in Kashmir to one in Swat. We have UN security council resolutions on Kashmir dating as far back as 1948 which clearly state that a plebscite would decide if Kashmiris want to go with India or Pakistan. UN resolutions call for Indian Army withdrawal from Kashmir.
Whereas Swat is a very different case, there are some miscreants challenging Pakistani government;s writ there. It has got nothing to do with Kashmir. What justification could you have last month, when Pakistan Army was not in Swat. How could you have justified large Indian Army presence in Kashmir since 1989?

“For now treat the LoC as LoC and then lets discuss as to how to solve the issue. Sending troops inside Indian held teritory or sending terrorists anywhere in India is not the right approach.”

-Aman, let me give you a little perspective on JuD, LeT etc and tell you what justifies their existence. Infact what created groups like JuD Let etc. Just type “2006 SECOND LEBANON WAR”, you would know that Israel in July 2006 went to war in Southern Lebanon with ‘Hezbollah’ a radical terrorist shia organization. Hezbollah had well fortified positions in Southern Lebanon, it was equipped with weapons like ATGMs, (Anti- Tank Guided Missiles), C-802 anti-ship missiles and it attacked one of Israel’s warships causing casualties among Israeli Navy. The war took place in response by a daring cross border raid by Hezbollah which killed and wounded some Israeli soldiers.
WHY? because Israel occupies Southern Lebanon, because Israel occupied Golan Heights. Groups like Hezbollah challenge Israel’s occupation of Arab land.

Similarly, LeT JuD exist because of India’s occupation of Kashmir. After all, what is LoC? Line of Control? what legitimacy it has? we need a settlement of the Kashmir dispute. I agree cross-border terrorism is not an option, it has to stop. You are honest enough to accept Kashmir as a dispute and talk about its solution. But there are still many people who do not even accept basic facts. Look Aman, disputes are sometimes complicated and we need to understand them. Pakistan allegedly sending terrorist to fight against Indian Army in Kashmir is only half truth. What about Indian Army occupation of Kashmir? I feel now UN security council resolutions are less significant, rather direct negotiations are needed to settle the problem.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Umair,
Do you share the same view point on Balochistan? Don’t you consider it as a part of Pakistan? If you have armed resistance there, do you think its justified?

And as I said, we are interpreting history in two different ways, For us we quote The acession of Kashmir my Raja Hari Singh which Lord Mountbatten approved. You quote Muslim predominance in Kashmir.

As far as UN council is concerned, India has always opposed that view again citing the accession agreement. Also, as far as I understand, India and pakistan has had Shimla Agreement (I am no authority on that though).

Umair, you need to understand that as long as you keep supporting seccionist sentiments in your neighborhood, your own house also will be on fire. And that is the main reason that India didn’t support LTTE in Sri Lanka, even though we are ethinically tied to Tamils.

And Umair, LeT and JeD are not Kasmiris, they are Pahtuns even Arabs and Punjabi Pakistanis. If the Kashmiris are oppressed then they will raise objections. Given that scenario, may be it is fitting that you have Balochistan whose people have been disadvantaged in a Punjabi dominated society.
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t wish you bad (though you wish terrorist strikes on us, we don’t) I am just giving you a perspective. As long as Pakistan burns, we will also face problems. And the same is true for you too.

Posted by Aman | Report as abusive
 

Aman
We could argue with each other, and also disagree, but I would like to state having seen myself the destructive Marriot hotel bombing in Islamabad last year. I would never wish something like that to you, even our faith Islam says saving one person’s life is like saving the whole humanity. And killing one persons life is like killing the whole humanity. I fully support Pakistan Army operations in Swat, I fully support the Army taking on the terrorist who have killed many innocent people in Pakistan. Why? because I dont support terrorism myself personally. I just gave you a perspective regarding your questions about LeT, JuD etc.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Aman,

As an Indian, I pride myself with fairness. We need to be fair where we have to be. In the case of Kashmir, we have our own degree of unfairness. Here are my points. I know my fellow countrymen will not like my comments. And I am not saying it to please Umair and the other Pakistanis. Here are my points.

1. Kashmir is a very, very special case. It cannot be equated with NE India, LTTE in Sri Lanka etc.

2. At the time of partition, the agreement was that all Muslim majority regions adjoining each other would go to Pakistan. There was no requirement for people to leave their areas of residence. Therefore, if Punjabi Hindus and Sikhs had stayed in what is Pakistani Punjab today, it would have been all right. And vice versa. Jinnah did not demand that people cross each other. That they did is due to the Direct Action launched by the Muslim League that resulted in violence against Non Muslims and the subsequent retaliation. Jinnah was upset by this cross migration. He did not envision partition that way. He simply wanted Muslim majority regions adjacent to each other to become Pakistan. He had regions of Awadh (UP, Bihar, Bengal) also to merge into that union. He did not get it.

3. Coming to Kashmir, in 1947, Pakistan had every right to take ownership of Kashmir. It was a Muslim majority state and the partition agreement allowed them to call it as their territory.

4. Junagadh in Gujerat area had a Muslim Nawab and a Hindu majority. A plebiscite was held and the people voted for merger with India. The Nawab went to Pakistan and Junagadh joined India.

5. In Deccan, Hyderabad was a large Sultanate under the Nizam with a Hindu majority. The Nizam, like Hari Singh of Kashmir, wanted to be independent. India sent its troops and defeated their Razakars and Hyderabad is a part of India now. The Nizam moved to Australia.

6. Now look at Kashmir based on the above two cases. They had a Hindu king and a Muslim majority. In all fairness, a plebiscite similar to Junagadh should have been held. It was not. Pakistan’s mistake was not sending in its proper military into Kashmir and annexing it, like India did in Hyderabad, Deccan. Why they decided to allow the Pashtun tribesmen to invade Kashmir is still a mystery. And the tribesmen, true to their nature, came close to Sri Nagar and then lost track of their mission. Instead they engaged in rape, pillage and plunder. The rest is history.

7. If you are a judge reviewing the case, you will need to be fair. I look at it from that stand point. Kashmir should have either joined Pakistan or chosen to stay independent.

8. India invaded Kashmir in 1948, with good intentions of stopping the plunder by the Pashtun tribesmen. It was Nehru who went to the UN and not Pakistan. But why Nehru did not follow up after that is a mystery. I guess his emotional attachment to Kashmir (he is a native of Kashmir) had something to do with it.

9. The UN resolution required both India and Pakistan to withdraw their forces from all of Kashmir before a plebiscite. Pakistan did not trust India and refused to withdraw its forces and vice versa.

10. In 1962, India got mauled by the Chinese. Nehru did not believe in a strong military. He was facing alienation from the US and its allies. Ayub Khan was put in place by the CIA. He made the first mistake of sending in tribesmen into the valley. And the Kashmiris of that time, caught them and handed them over to the Indian authorities. In 1964 Nehru died and Shastri became the Prime Minister. Ayub saw a weak Indian at the helm of affairs and decided to escalate the tension. War and stalemate resulted.

11. What one sees are repeated attempts of insurgency and war to force the situation by Pakistan. Had they been smart, they should have avoided military options. What they have done has united a vastly diverse group of Indians. And a lot of time has gone.

12. Pakistan in 1972, pretty much gave up on Kashmir and signed the Simla accord. They were defeated in 1971. But India’s nuclear explosions in 1974, Zia’s take over of the country, Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan etc changed everything. Zia and his military wanted to avenge the loss of East Pakistan. If the US could defeat the Soviet Union in revenge for Vietnam, why not Pakistan do the same to India in Kashmir to avenge for Bangladesh. This is a new chapter which has made things worse.

13. Now we have to look at the whole thing from a new perspective. A lot of water has flowed under the bridge. Pakistan has succeeded in making the Kashmiris become alienated from India by provoking the Indian military through sophisticated insurgency and turning them brutal. Watch videos of Journeyman TV (neutral source) that will make you feel terrible as an Indian. I do not want our military to be equated with brutal militaries in the world. I want our hands to be clean.

We do need to find a solution to Kashmir. But unfortunately, it will not be what could have been achieved in 1948. I’d recommend recognizing the LoC as the border and be done with it.

 

My own addendum to Mauryans overview on Partition.
India had never accepted the 2 nation theory before and detested the same after partition. Especially religion remaining as the basis of partition. India remained secular all along. So, the reason calling a plebiscite as ‘outdated’ has its roots in the ground reality of a ‘failed 2 nation theory ( based on religion). As is obvious India had retained its muslim population nearly completely within itself without the expected emigration and, had witnessed muslims to flourish along with, hindus, sikhs, christians, Buddhists and jains. So, now after 6 decades, there is no case for a redrawing of boundary based on strengths of religions in a given territory. Today, Bangladesh, Pakistan and India have similar numbers of muslims in all 3 countries, give or take a few millions.
Lets bring in the example of Sikh separatist movement here. Sikh secessionists had lost all support from their own, presumably, when they realized, the hopelessness and impracticality of survival as an independent nation, that is land locked between India and Pakistan. Its obvious that similar situation is bound to happen to Kashmir and hence kashmiris, if they think with a clear mind, should decline independence.
Atrocities, the scale of which need to be analyzed, somehow do not culminate in border crossing by the thousands (of beleaguered muslims as was witnessed in bangladesh). Instead, we saw all hindus (pundits) for years leaving (Indian) kashmir and to date living in squalid camps.
Myra, one of these days please write a post on Kashmiri hindus.

 

@Azadm you said:

“Lets bring in the example of Sikh separatist movement here. Sikh secessionists had lost all support from their own, presumably, when they realized, the hopelessness and impracticality of survival as an independent nation, that is land locked between India and Pakistan.”

On that small note, I would like to add that the Sikh separatist movement for Khalistan was fueled and supported by Pakistan, the Pak Army and the ISI. Their goal was to catch India off guard and decapitate the Indian government. A cabal of political and power hungry Sikh expatriats who amased money fueled this movement with guidance from Islamabad. This sininster immoral group hijacked Sikhism. As a Brahmin Hindu, I have many friends who are Sikhs and grew up with them and love them respect them as family, as they do me. I frequented the Sikh temples more often than any Hindu temples and can identify with the Sikh Jatt Culture. Regardless, the past is the past and the Sikh Religion is a part of the greater family of India and the rest of India has must reverance and respect it shall continue to show to the brave Sikhs of India, bless them all and bless Mr. Singh the prime minister of India.

Many of the Sikhs who were once emboldended by the band-wagon idea of a separate state now realize that they were cheated and lie to and are in fact dis-enchanted. We don’t want Sikhs to separate, they are a part of the larger Indian family and we are incomplete without them.

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Ok,

I’m not going to answer the comments on Kashmir for now as so many details are contested that it deserves its own post, or indeed multiple posts. (Over time, I promise I will come back to them.)

But reading the comments about Pakistan in general prompted me to reread Jinnah’s 1940 speech in Lahore. I found a version on the internet here:

http://www.pakalumni.com/profiles/blog/s how?id=1119293%3ABlogPost%3A57587

It’s very long (glorious pre-soundbite days) so I suspect that people can, and will, pull out whatever quotes they want to suit any particular argument. Certainly each time I’ve read it, a different line jumps out at me as being significant. So I’ll resist the temptation to pull out the quotes I think are important for now and suggest you read it in full, remembering as well the context of the times.

It would be interesting at some point to discuss what Jinnah planned for Pakistan, but there is time for that and no need to jump in now with an instant comment.

Myra

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GW Writes: “I would like to add that the Sikh separatist movement for Khalistan was fueled and supported by Pakistan, the Pak Army and the ISI. Their goal was to catch India off guard and decapitate the Indian government. A cabal of political and power hungry Sikh expatriats who amased money fueled this movement with guidance from Islamabad. This sininster immoral group hijacked Sikhism.”

It was not entirely a Sikh movement. There was politics involved. It was the time of Indira Gandhi, her infamous son Sanjay Gandhi and their clique of sycophants. Indira Gandhi was taking India down the path of self destruction. She had no value for democracy and liked autocracy preferable. Her son was much worse. She brought in the fashion of dismissing elected governments in states by creating a crisis there, installing either a puppet Congress government or governor’s rule. Based on the culture in each state, the response varied. In Andhra Pradesh she dismissed the popular NTR government and simultaneously dismissed Farooq Abdullah’s government in Kashmir. And to rub salt into the wound, she installed Bhaskar Rao, a congress lackey as CM in Andhra and Shah in Kashmir. In Kashmir this changed the public attitude. In Punjab, Zail Singh and Sanjay Gandhi helped prop up a very mild anti-Indian movement to create crisis for the publicly elected government of Darbara Singh. Bhindranwale was brought to prominence from obscurity and it was easy to install a governor’s rule. Pakistan immediately snatched the opportunity (I do not blame them) and things went out of control in no time. Once the common people are hurt and threatened, the problem could only escalate. Indira Gandhi, according to the book by Tariq Ali was finished off by the ISI under Zia’s instructions. One of the Sikh bodyguards who shot her, had sneaked into Pakistan and got training according to the author. In return, there is a theory that the Russians finished off Zia per Rajeev Gandhi’s request. I am digressing. Sorry. And it is not relevant to the topic. Just thought I’d share my views. In the late 1970s and until 1990, India did look unstable and some of us felt that the country would fall apart. But the nefarious leaders died one by one, right on time and India was saved. Hope Pakistan is saved from the brink of its own disaster now.

 

Myra
I read the speech, infact glanced through it and found the following part to be important in Mr. Jinnah’s speech:

“Mussalmans are not a minority as it is commonly known and understood. One has only got to look round. Even today, according to the British map of India, out of eleven provinces, four provinces where the Muslims dominate more or less, are functioning notwithstanding the decision of the Hindu Congress High Command to non-cooperate and prepare for civil disobedience. Mussalmans are a nation according to any definition of a nation, and they must have their homelands, their territory, and their state. We wish to live in peace and harmony with our neighbours as a free and independent people. We wish our people to develop to the fullest our spiritual, cultural, economic, social, and political life, in a way that we think best and in consonance with our own ideals and according to the genius of our people. Honesty demands [that we find], and [the] vital interest[s] of millions of our people impose a sacred duty upon us to find, an honourable and peaceful solution, which would be just and fair to all. But at the same time we cannot be moved or diverted from our purpose and objective by threats or intimidations. We must be prepared to face all difficulties and consequences, make all the sacrifices that may be required of us, to achieve the goal we have set in front of us.”

-Mr. Jinnah had also made reference to the Palestine issue, the Palestinians were unable to gain their statehood. Can someone on this blog tell me if there is a more brutal conflict raging on around the world other than the one between Israelis and Palestinians? what a price the Palestinians are paying, does everyone have a very short memory? did we forget when white phosphorus shells were dropped in Gaza last december kiling children, paramedics, doctors, aid workers, anyone that was in the way. Likewise, the many Palestinian suicide bombers who killed jews during all these years. Israel went to war during the 50s, 60s and 70s with all of its Arab neighbours, these wars carry on today, the 2006 Lebanon war, the 2008 Gaza offensive, the conflict has no end in sight.

People who still believe the two nation theory was not a reality must keep in mind. Had Pakistan not come into being, today what is hapening between jews and Muslims in Middle East would have looked like picnic compared to the way Muslims and hindus would have been at each other’s throat in India. Pakistan was established as a homeland for the muslims of India, and ofcourse the muslims were not a minority. The statements of Congress leaders like Lala Lajpat Rai that what do muslims need? compelled muslims to think,’boy, we better standup for our rights otherwise we are screwed up”. It was the attitude of Congress leaders who thought muslims as a minority under hindu rule. Obviously might is not right.

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Umair writes: “what is hapening between jews and Muslims in Middle East would have looked like picnic compared to the way Muslims and hindus would have been at each other’s throat in India.”

I disagree. There are close to 160 million Muslims living in India and they are not at each others’ throats like Jews and Palestinians are. “Hindus” did not drive away Muslims and prevented them from coming to their “settlements.” Indian Muslims do not have to get work permits to clean floors in Hindu households. Hindu nation was not created in the middle of Muslim land, driving them out. The comparison sucks big time. In general, Indians are living in peace, be it Hindus or Muslims or anyone else. Indian Muslims have their own civil code. An Indian Muslim can marry four wives and Muslim divorce and alimony laws are different from that for others. India subsidizes Haj pilgrimage. Most poor Muslims come from states like UP and Bihar, where everyone else is also equally under privileged and poor. Muslims are not backward and poor because they are denied opportunities for following their faith. Most Islamic monuments in India are maintained in tact. Most Hindus have their livelihood to chase and are not that religious. Most religious riots in India are politically motivated. Even BJP’s quest for the Babri mosque was its attempt to gain power as a national party. They followed Jinnah’s principle of inciting violence to separate people, turn them against each other and gain from it. But India is a democracy. So they have to face the voters every five years or their coalition partners even earlier. Kindly do not paint a picture out of ignorance.

“Pakistan was established as a homeland for the muslims of India, and ofcourse the muslims were not a minority.”

Pakistan was founded as a nation for Muslims and it split up into two due to linguistic and ethnic differences. Even today, inside Pakistan, there is more allegiance to ethnicity than religion – Sindhis, Balochis, Pashtuns, Punjabis and so on. Islam is a great religion. But religions have not been successful in making and holding nations in tact. Ethnicity and culture have much stronger influence on nationhood than religion. That is why the Iranians and Iraqis went to war, and Saddam Hussein dropped chemical weapons on Kurdish people, and the Tajiks and Pashtuns hate each other. Where is religion in all these? All pray to the same Allah for His support. Who does He support? Who did He support when the Bengalis were slaughtered in East Pakistan?

We agree that Pakistan is a reality and we don’t want ever to merge with your country. But we know that Jinnah simply made a kingdom for himself by using religious sentiments and he could hardly be described as a Muslim for what he practiced. And what is not clear is that Jinnah’s Muslims were all right living under the British, but were not all right living in a country which had a Hindu majority. What makes the British special? How come Jinnah’s party colluded with them when the Indians were fighting for independence? A lot of questions arise. But one this is for sure – two nation theory was false. And it has been proved beyond doubt. The only thing that came out of the two nation theory is two nations facing each other with nuclear weapons. If this is what Jinnah wanted, he got it.

 

@I would never wish something like that to you, even our faith Islam says saving one person’s life is like saving the whole humanity. And killing one persons life is like killing the whole humanity.”
-posted by Umair

-Guys, in addition to the above Umair says, it is OK to use terrorism by LeT as foreign policy tool and hence kill Indian innocents. How low one can fall?

The only question is: is he an aberration or does he represent Pakistanis. Next time he uses the above statement, we know what he means. Such a pretense–the height of hypocrisy. Jinnah is rolling in his grave.

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Myra,
I read the speech, makes for an interesting read but this re-inforces my view that Jinnah’s demand for a seperate pakistan had more to do with the power struggle between Jinnah and Nehru. As far as I have read about him, he was not very religious.

Umair,
Everyone in India treats Pakistan as a seperate country there is no ambiguity in that and no one wants to occupy it. In all fairness, you deserve to live the life you want and create for yourself.
Jinnah wanted a seperate country for muslims (as evident in his speech) and he got what he wanted. Though I doubt he wanted an Islamic state with Sharia as the law. In my opinion it was more of a power struggle between Jinnah and Nehru. Jinnah believed that Hindus won’t vote for him if elections were to happen (that is why he mentioned Gandhi’s 3 votes to his 1) and thus he will never become a prime minister. So he created pakistan where he can have his say.
And not all Muslims wanted it that way. An apt example would be Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan.
When you divide a region on the basis of creed, religion, language, etc there will always be discontent moreso in countries like India, where it is said that “Every two miles the water changes, every four miles the speech” so you see there will always be differences we can live in peace with each other with all our differences if we want to.

Muslims in India are not dis-enfranchised as Jinnah said they would be. And believe me there have been articles by prominent muslim journalists in India who thank their stars and forefathers for deciding to stay in India. This is not to slight on Pakistan but to tell you India is a tolerant nation and Hindus and Muslims in India are not cutting each other’s throats.

One of our client is from Pakistan. The company’s team came to India and din’t find much difference in the culture be it food or people. So basically we are the same people who have decided to live seperately. There are some issues and I beleieve, they can be solved through dialogue, proxy war is not the right way to go about it.

Mauryan,
I am not saying India is a saint. Pakistan couldn’t have made so much progress in Kashmir terrorism if there was no discontent. I also believe that LoC as the international border is a solution which a pragmatci person can accept. Else both the sides can keep demanding the whole of Kashmir and never reach a conclusion. Moreover, LoC has served as the defacto border since 1948.

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Myra
“It would be interesting at some point to discuss what Jinnah planned for Pakistan,”

—Precisely what it is at present – death & destruction – a global parasite.

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Rajeev:
“-Guys, in addition to the above Umair says, it is OK to use terrorism by LeT as foreign policy tool and hence kill Indian innocents. How low one can fall?”

- Rajeev dont stoop down to personal attacks, I will be very blunt this time. Terrorist groups like LeT exist due to illegal Indian occupation of Kashmir. LeT should be denounced as much as the Indian Army which perpetrates state sponsored terrorism in Kashmir.

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Umair,

“LeT should be denounced as much as the Indian Army which perpetrates state sponsored terrorism in Kashmir”

- The Indian Army is in Kashmir because of the daily infiltration attempts from the terrorists across the border. Let Pakistan dismantle the terrorist camps and the army will be withdrawn. It’s as simple as that.

Posted by Nikhil | Report as abusive
 

Umair writes: “LeT should be denounced as much as the Indian Army which perpetrates state sponsored terrorism in Kashmir”

I agree that bringing in military always ends up in brutality. Indian military in Kashmir has a special privilege. They have no accountability. They do not have to explain what they do. This can lead to uncontrolled atrocities sometimes. Groups like LeT have made it worse by relying on this weakness. They have managed to alienate the local Kashmiris. Most people there openly ask for freedom. It does not matter what Pakistan’s goal is. We as Indians must do the needful to bring peace to the people of this region. Their participation in the Indian elections, despite the LeT threat is a welcome sign. From our side, we must rebuild the bridge of reconciliation and accommodation. I hope Man Mohan Singh gives Kashmir peace a top priority and helps bring these people to accept the reality of today.

We know that groups like LeT do not have Kashmir alone in their agenda. Their leader had openly declared war against India and fight until India is destroyed. From that stand point, I’d like to know what Mr. Umair thinks.

 

Nikhil:
” The Indian Army is in Kashmir because of the daily infiltration attempts from the terrorists across the border. Let Pakistan dismantle the terrorist camps and the army will be withdrawn. It’s as simple as that.”

-Indian Army invaded Kashmir back in 1947/48, this is a leftover dispute from the partition, Kashmir remained under Indian Army occupation all along. Groups like LeT are a relatively recent phenomenon. You simply cannot justify huge Indian Army presence in Kashmir. And this is not the first time India is accusing Pakistan of harboring terrorist camps across the LoC, India has always complained of that. But Pakistan’s position has always been to settle the Kashmir dispute, thats why we have the UNMOGIP(United Nations Military Observer Group in India and Pakistan).
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/missions/un mogip/

The UN peacekeeping observers/monitors and observe the LoC, and its only the UN that will decide if Pakistan is breaching the LoC and sending any terrorists. First, the UN will determine if there is any infiltration, if yes than it will ensure there are no terrorist camps infrastructure on Pakistani side.

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“Indian Army invaded Kashmir back in 1947/48, this is a leftover dispute from the partition, Kashmir remained under Indian Army occupation all along. Groups like LeT are a relatively recent phenomenon. You simply cannot justify huge Indian Army presence in Kashmir.”

-Posted by Umair:

Pakistan invaded first, only them Indians were called. If its a disputed territory, how do you justify huge Pakistan army in PoK or Azad kashmir ??

Are they playing marbles as Hamid Gul always says ?

Pakistan also holds PoK parts of Kashmir, why don’t LeT has a declared Anti Pak agenda ? How many terrorist attacks LeT did in Pakistan ?

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Mauryan:
“We know that groups like LeT do not have Kashmir alone in their agenda. Their leader had openly declared war against India and fight until India is destroyed. From that stand point, I’d like to know what Mr. Umair thinks.”

-I would like to draw your attention to the former President Gen. Musharraf’s speech to the nation on January 12, 2002 during the height of 2001/02 border standoff.
http://mea.gov.in/opinion/2002/01/30o02. htm
I am sure you can also search it on you tube. Musharraf had denounced and banned certain organizations, since than Pakistan has come a long way, we see Pakistan Army moving against the same terrorists. Non-state actors in Pakistan may say whatever, but they are not allowed to challenge the writ of the government. They did in Swat, and the government unleashed force on them. We can tame these handful of extremists, but the important thing is we also have extremists in India as well like Col. Purohit who was involved in Samjhota express blast killing Pakistani citizens. So, for groups who declare war against India, Pakistan has already declared war on them in 2002. there is a crackdown on them, but again Kashmir needs to be dealt with all sincerity. Otherwise the problem cannot be stemmed, kashmir will be the start. Once these groups will have no justification to fight in Kashmir, they can be taken on with greater resolve/force and put out of business.

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Punjabiyaar:
“Pakistan invaded first, only them Indians were called. If its a disputed territory, how do you justify huge Pakistan army in PoK or Azad kashmir ??”

-I disagree Pakistan invaded first, it was forcibely annexed to India by the Hindu Maharaja of Kashmir. And secondly, who called India in? the Maharaja? what authority did he have since Kashmir was a muslim majority state. Can you go back to the basis of partition, muslim majority areas were supposed to join Pakistan not India.

The question of Pakistan military presence in Kashmir, you have an 700,000 strong Indian military presence in Kashmir, Pakistan had to deploy accordingly.

“Pakistan also holds PoK parts of Kashmir, why don’t LeT has a declared Anti Pak agenda ? How many terrorist attacks LeT did in Pakistan ?”

-well, LeT is a culprit of many terrorist attacks in Pakistan too. Atleast at the support level, there are already indications that Taliban get support from terrorist groups like LeT.

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Those who have qustions on LeT
http://www.cfr.org/publication/9135/

—————–
Oppression of Muslims only fosters terrorism, Pakistani leader warns General Assembly
http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?Ne wsID=19893&Cr=general&Cr1=debate&Kw1=UNM OGIP&Kw2=&Kw3=

“Turning to the long-standing conflict in Jammu and Kashmir, Mr. Musharraf said “an acceptable solution” is now within reach, thanks largely to improved relations between Pakistan and its neighbour India.

He added that he expected his meeting last week with Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh in Havana, on the sidelines of the Non-Aligned Summit, will help to promote the peace process in Kashmir.

First set up in 1949, the UN Military Observer Group in India and Pakistan (UNMOGIP) has monitored the ceasefire in Jammu and Kashmir since 1971. As of the end of July this year, there were 44 military observers and 66 civilian staff in the mission.”

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Umair:
“I disagree Pakistan invaded first, it was forcibely annexed to India by the Hindu Maharaja of Kashmir.”

This is a lie you have been told by your army. See any neutral source, where the hell did tribesmen came from ? If Pakistan did not invaded first, how do you still hold PoK today ?

I dont think Maharaja had any authority to sign Kashmir to India. But if Pakistan had not invaded it in the first place, why would India jump in the conflict.

“LeT is a culprit of many terrorist attacks in Pakistan too. Atleast at the support level, there are already indications that Taliban get support from terrorist groups like LeT.

Thats another lie, Pakistan has never officially accused and arrested any LeT operator for any terror attack in Pakistan. Where do you think Hafeez Mohd. Sayeed the founding father lives. India had gone numerous time to UN to get it Banned, but China used to veto it on request of Pakistan.

For you LeT and Taliban are terrorists only when they attack Pakistan, if they attack India, Pakistan cheerfully support them and give them names like Mujahid and Jehadi.

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Umair,

Indian army moved in 1990 in large numbers after the Pakistan assisted insurgency in Kashmir began. It’s a recent and not a 60 year old phenomena. UNMOIGP observation post exists because India and Pakistan disagree with each other’s position on Kashmir.

LeT, JuD, HuM and other Punjabi terrorist organizations do not fit in resolving border disputes. But, Pakistan openly supports them as ‘good’ mujahadins. Since 1999, India has choosen to negotiate with Pakistan but every attempt is sabotaged by the PA terrorist combine. Given the decay in Pakistani state, India may soon have to negotiate with the likes of the LeT instead of Zardari or Kayani.

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@Rajeev:
“-Guys, in addition to the above Umair says, it is OK to use terrorism by LeT as foreign policy tool and hence kill Indian innocents. How low one can fall?”
–I am least interested in getting personal. I don;t even know you. All I can do is trash the line of thought and nonsense statements by someone and that;s all I did. I heard your statements and spoke the truth in a most mild mannner. You sound so shallow when you give prophetic statements, such as talking about islam, humanity, while you approve of terrorism in India. Perhaps you are not burnt enough yet.

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Umair,

“The UN peacekeeping observers/monitors and observe the LoC, and its only the UN that will decide if Pakistan is breaching the LoC and sending any terrorists.”

- The UN is there to enforce violations from armed forces of sovereign nations across the border. In Pakistan, the Punjabi terrorists are an extension of their army but other countries do not follow that modus operandi. The UN at LoC does not arrest infiltrations.

LoC will be the international border; that’s the only pragmatic solution, may be now or may sixty years from now after thousands of more deaths and millions of dollars spent.

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Myra-

REF: JINNAH

Jinnahs vision was violated and replaced bythat of Zias.
http://www.sdpi.org/whats_new/reporton/S tate%20of%20Curr&TextBooks.pdf

Page32 (page16 in the book)

Assertion of the Ideology of Pakistan
Many scholars have forcefully argued, with the help of historical record that the term Ideology of Pakistan is a construction that did not exist when Pakistan was created. Justice Munir has very clearly identified the first time when the phrase was coined. In his monograph

From Jinnah to Zia he writes:
The Quaid-i-Azam never used the words “Ideology of Pakistan” … For fifteen
years after the establishment of Pakistan, the Ideology of Pakistan was not
known to anybody until in 1962 a solitary member of the Jama’at-I-Islami used
the words for the first time when the Political Parties Bill was being discussed.
On this, Chaudhry Fazal Elahi, who has recently retired as President of Pakistan,
rose from his seat and objected that the ‘Ideology of Pakistan’ shall have to be
defined. The member who had proposed the original amendment replied that the
‘Ideology of Pakistan was Islam’ …

 

Umair writes: “Indian Army invaded Kashmir back in 1947/48, this is a leftover dispute from the partition, Kashmir remained under Indian Army occupation all along. Groups like LeT are a relatively recent phenomenon. You simply cannot justify huge Indian Army presence in Kashmir.”

Umair,

I refer you to the following link regarding 1948 UN resolutions on Kashmir. Refer to Part II on it.

http://www.jammu-kashmir.com/documents/j kunresolution.html

It clearly asks for Pakistani army and militant withdrawal from all of Kashmir as a pre-condition for the plebiscite.

1. As the presence of troops of Pakistan in the territory of the State of Jammu and Kashmir constitutes a material change in the situation since it was represented by the Government of Pakistan before the Security Council, the Government of Pakistan agrees to withdraw its troops from that State.

2. The Government of Pakistan will use its best endeavour to secure the withdrawal from the State of Jammu and Kashmir of tribesmen and Pakistani nationals not normally resident therein who have entered the State for the purpose of fighting.

3. Pending a final solution, the territory evacuated by the Pakistani troops will be administered by the local authorities under the surveillance of the commission.

B.

1.When the commission shall have notified the Government of India that the tribesmen and Pakistani nationals referred to in Part II, A, 2, hereof have withdrawn, thereby terminating the situation which was represented by the Government of India to the Security Council as having occasioned the presence of Indian forces in the State of Jammu and Kashmir, and further, that the Pakistani forces are being withdrawn from the State of Jammu and Kashmir, the Government of India agrees to begin to withdraw the bulk of its forces from that State in stages to be agreed upon with the Commission.

2. Pending the acceptance of the conditions for a final settlement of the situation in the State of Jammu and Kashmir, the Indian Government will maintain within the lines existing at the moment of the cease-fire the minimum strength of its forces which in agreement with the commission are considered necessary to assist local authorities in the observance of law and order. The Commission will have observers stationed where it deems necessary.

3. The Government of India will undertake to ensure that the Government of the State of Jammu and Kashmir will take all measures within its powers to make it publicly known that peace, law and order will be safeguarded and that all human political rights will be granted.

4. Upon signature, the full text of the truce agreement or a communique containing the principles thereof as agreed upon between the two Governments and the Commission, will be made public.

Pakistan had no right to cede Aksai Chin to China in a disputed territory. Therefore in order to follow the UN resolutions by both parties, Pakistan must get Aksai Chin from China first, vacate all of Kashmir and it has to be verified to India’s satisfaction before further steps can be taken. So let us know what Pakistan’s plans of troop, tribesmen withdrawal and retrieving Aksai Chin. You wanted the UN resolution honored. You guys have been insisting on it. So start fulfilling the requirements and we should go from there. Or do you prefer the Simla accord of 1972, that made things a little easy for Pakistan? If so, then you cannot go back to 1948 resolution. Let me see what Pakistanis think about the resolution.

 

Umair,
India did not invade Kashmir, the Maharaja of Kashmir asked for help and acceded to India through an agreement and only then did the Indian Army move into Kashmir.
Its presence was minimal for the first 40 odd years. It was only when Pakistan sponsored militants enetered Kashmir that the army was called in as the police forces where not able to handle the growing insurgency.

It was the Pashtuns backed by Pakistani forces who invaded Kashmir because of which the maharaja asked for India’s help.

Again, as I have stated before, going by this logic Jihad against Pakistani forces is also justified. I am making this statement again, I don’t know when will you understand though, Indian forces in Kashmir are their to protect the people their for terrorists attacks and also to protect India’s sovereignity.

Maybe you will understand this only when Swat and NWFP becomes for you what Kashmir is for India. Here its muslim vs hindu divide there it will Pashtuns vs Punjabi divide.

Try and understand, nothing justifies terrorism. All differences can be sorted with negotiations. I just fail to understand how can you justify terrorism and killing of innocents on any grounds.

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Aman
I dont know what did I state that you got an impression I justified terrorism? Despite me, repeatedly denying, you seem to be stuck on one point. Surely terrorism is no way to go. I appreciated your honesty in admitting Kashmir as a dispute and talking about its solution. Last time in 2007 both India and Pakistan came close to its solution, lets hope next time we actually have an agreement/solution.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Mauryan, Rajeev,

If Pakistan is so sincere about fighting terrorism, at least it appears somewhat to want to show that image, at least for now, given the offensive against the Taliban, perhaps the Pak Army should also cleanse all of its JuD, Let and Hum Punjabi Terrorists.

I wonder how much we have to pay the PA to cleanup their instruments of foreign terror? Any Guesses? Umair?

The terrorist and friend of the the PA and ISI, Hafiz Saeed has a grand plan to not stop at Kashmir, he wants to steal Gujarat and conquer all of northern India. These nut jobs walk and talk freely in Pakistan.

Hafiz Muhammad Saeed himself headed the Lashkar-e-Toiba after the organization was founded in 1990, with the full backup of the notorious Pakistani Intelligence ISI.

According to Indian Intelligence sources Hafiz Muhammad Saeed masterminded and headed the INDIAN Parliament attack on 12/13/2001.

I ask why Umair, why is this terrorist man not permanently in jail? He will eventually start killing your Fauji’s on the streets of Pakistan.

Should Saeed and men like not be rid of sooner than later?

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Myra writes: “Seeking a civil, intelligent discussion with space for all sides of an argument is not bias. Those of you who see it as such are indeed on the wrong forum”

Myra,

Sorry. This was in the other blog. Since you shut the doors there, I am making my point here. By saying the above, you are indirectly acknowledging your support for the Mumbai attacks and other terrorist activities by Pakistan inside India’s borders. Like it or not, you are exhibiting strong anti-Indian bias. I have never seen you tell the Pakistanis when they crossed the line several times (Nukes, foul language and lies).

I am getting out of this forum altogether. I cannot stand Western bias which has led the world to disaster like we see today. And it starts at the people’s level and extends all the way up to those who run their governments and militaries.

You can happily mother Pakistanis from here on. I feel cheap to be treated like this by you and your bias.

 

@Myra,

I would like to reflect a similar sentiment to Mauryan. It is unfortunate that while you want to provide a forum to discuss both sides of the issue, you rarely venture into the realm of standing up for the right and just thing and often fall quite short of condemning terrorism caused by Pakistan.

Your focus is to discuss and discuss and discuss complexities, ancilliary details and such but you rarely seek to get to the heart of the matter of things and call things for what they are. In the spirit of being apolitical, we are impotently providing a forum, which at times tolerates those who are complicit and support terrorism.

Withing the context of western forums and apolitical people like yourself, Indians never receive even a verbal sense of justice, so all they can do is vent and re-hash history.

Western nations have been much too complicit with Pakistan to suit their own gains and interests.

With all of the internal problems that India has, India is still a technical, spiritual, economical, military powerhouse and a standing testament to democracy, in fact the largest one.

India is so underrated that it deserves much more credit and respect than it has been getting here.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive
 

Myra,

We often see a certain blogger spew a false account of history with regards to Pakistan’s role in 1965, 1971, Kargil and even Mumbai.

These lies, falsehoods, untrue statements often go unchallenged and do not so much as even receive a remittance of any sort from the person posting the blog. This blogger also posts attrocities the the Indian army has committed yet fails repeatedly to acknowledge that the Pakistani Army Genocided 2.5 million hinuds and 500,000 muslims.

You are also silent on that issue.

If you notice a lot of the India “clatter” is Indians trying to set the facts straight and rebutt that blogger for the false, pro-Islamic and provocatory things he posts and the complicity and tacit approval he gives of proxy armies and jihadists waging war on India.

India is a secular and democratic country with many peoples and religions, despite all its problems. Pakistan has problems miles above any Kashmir issue and the root causes of those things are rarely engaged as topics here.

Posted by G Lobal W atcher | Report as abusive
 

@They have managed to alienate the local Kashmiris. Most people there openly ask for freedom.
-by Mauryan

Mauryan: That means separatists must have lot of appeal and a majority would follow them. if they are so popular, why don’t they check this out by fighting rather than boycoting the elections. They are scared of the defeat. This is shown by heavy loss of Sajid lone a separatist who contested from Baramullah in Kashmir in these Loksabha Elections.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

@The UN peacekeeping observers/monitors and observe the LoC, and its only the UN that will decide if Pakistan is breaching the LoC and sending any terrorists. First, the UN will determine if there is any infiltration, if yes than it will ensure there are no terrorist camps infrastructure on Pakistani side.
- Posted by Umair

Umair: Hmmm……….Really did not know that it is possible to monitor LoC in that terrain by anyone unless they make a human chain.
Anyway, I am sorry to hear about the Lahore terrorist attacks and right under the nose of ISI. I wonder who they are: the Taliban or LeT or JeM. I ruling out RAW or ISI here. It is hard to know unless a terrorist is caught live as in Mumbai.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

Myra
“It would be interesting at some point to discuss what Jinnah planned for Pakistan,”

Myra: That discussion will get into the realm of poetry. Jinnah hardly survived to plan a a thing–nothing. Few statements are interpreted by different people differently. It is not worth it. But surely he got what he wished for–A nation for Muslims that is today’s Pakistan. He was wrong all the way on 2 nation theory. we have three countries now and Pakistan’s roguish ways are misguiding PAK into 4 more.

62Yrs shows that pakistan is not the product of a smart man. But Jinnah’s was smart man for what he achieved. I explain that by getting into poetry: Since Jinnah’s ancestors were converted to Islam, Jinnah was doing a great favor to non-Muslims and India by keeping those Muslims–who really wanted to be away from India–in Pakistan and India retain those Muslims, who think there is nothing wrong to co-exist with non-Muslims. So we got 2 equal number of populations thinking entirely differently.

If history is a trend for future, we know what we kind of Pakistan we are looking at and this might have happened to India. Who knows anywhere and who cares in pakistan what Jinnah thought. But as an Indian, thank you Mr. Jinnah for your creation.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

I am getting out of this forum altogether. I cannot stand Western bias which has led the world to disaster like we see today. And it starts at the people’s level and extends all the way up to those who run their governments and militaries.

You can happily mother Pakistanis from here on. I feel cheap to be treated like this by you and your bias.
- Posted by Mauryan

Muryan: STAY AND IGNORE. SMALL THING.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

@Umair,

India and the world stands by these cowardly acts of terrorism against Pakistan. Our heart and sentiments go out to the victims, their families and those injured.

Pakistan is a victim of terrorism, as is India. We hope those that those who planned, supported and executed those terrorist acts, be it the Taliban, JuD, LeT, HuM, or Al-Qaeda, that they be brought to justice and punished severely to the maximum extent possible.

On a second note, Indians stand by the Pakistani Soldiers on the ground and their families and children. Those soldiers must receive the highest respect and commendation for fighting Islamic Militantism are putting their life on the life everyday to make Pakistan a safer place.

The real war in Pakistan will come between the Pakistani Army on the Eastern border and between their proxy armies. It is in the interest of Pakistan to avoid a war with them and attack the LeT, JuD and HuM first and take them by surprise and eliminate them.

Peace and stability will come to Kashmir in time and the Indian Army can pull away from Indian Kashmir and leave Kashmir in a more settled state.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive
 

@If Pakistan is so sincere about fighting terrorism, at least it appears somewhat to want to show that image, at least for now, given the offensive against the Taliban, perhaps the Pak Army should also cleanse all of its JuD, Let and Hum Punjabi Terrorists.”
-by GW

GW: We knoW What it takes for PA to act. Taliban Was openly challenging pakistan govt/rule and still PA took no action against Taliban. It Was tripartite meeting in DC in May and the $$$$$ under consideration and congress asking questions about the right use of money that this anti-taliban action happened. While We have expressed some hope may be this is real action and not drama since over million IDP is a huge drama for the money and is good chance that anti-taliban fight is for real. But I personally see that there exosts heterogeneity inside Pakistan Army or ISI that Will make sure that anti-India stategic tool Taliban is not totally destroyed (big leaders Will never be caught alloWing later regrouping of Taliban but kept under tighter Pak control, a secret deal). Note one thing, all Afghans, who know the people in the religion and Taliban up close, sees this action by PA as a drama and Warn Indians that this should not be trusted as a real act. So wish for the best, but Wait and Watch. That’s What the US generals feel.

About Pak-supported terrorists like LeT/JeM and others like HuM, I do not see any pressure by US/NATO on Pak to act against these terrorists for their unofficial genius of a reason that these are not A-Q. For Whatever US says, US War is not over until this mess is cleared. There have been good reasons to believe that LeT has done anti-pak bombings terrorism and might be getting out of control of PA. So far since they do not pose threat as big as Taliban and no international pressure and PA perception that clearing LeTs and JeMs Will be taken by India as paki Weakness, I do not see this thing happening. It Will be more possible once India-pak get into bilateral talks and India demand directly. Some say first clear terrorists and then bilateral talks, my vieW currently is that start bilateral talks, but keep the anti-terrorist as #1 on the agenda.

@According to Indian Intelligence sources Hafiz Muhammad Saeed masterminded and headed the INDIAN Parliament attack on 12/13/2001.

GW: I think terrorist Hafiz Muhammad Saeed was part of HuM earlier, but post-Indian plane hijacking/kandhar release, formed JeM and became its chief. US has direct interest in him due to Daniel Pearl killing (actually by right hand man of saeed who also was released in the hijacking.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan has long been a hotspot of extremely deeply-rooted religious and cultural prejudices, only now it has come to the forefront and attention of the world in the form of “Islamic” “Jihad”. These Taliban roaming the valley of Swat must feel like Rambo, all-powerul etc. Their empty brains have been fed to long on Rambo-style films, and their guilty consciences in not being “good enough Muslims” (due to their repressed desires such as film-watching, which they feel goes against whatever “faith” they claim to follow) have forced them to retreat into an even more primitive style of life than their own parents must have lived. The muslim world’s biggest dilemma is how to bring their barbaric real selves (ie. cultures and customs specifically and cleverly tailored to repressed lifestyle caused by lack of adequate work ethic stemming from love of remaining in ignorance because that means less work to do in life- including brain work – resulting in dire poverty and victim syndrome) in line with what is morally good and right (read: religion – any religion for that matter). In order to HUMANIZE the Muslim world, it is not necessary to DEMONIZE it, but to threaten to ELIMINATE it. Just threaten, because there are lots of good muslims out there who are not Taliban at all, but are still not good enough as morally sound human beings, because their grounding in the primitive, superstitious, repressive and oppressive is so strong it envelops ALL Muslims, regardless of good or evil. You CANNOT deny that the Taliban are Muslims. It doesn’t matter what the moderates say, that Islam doesn’t allow that kind of monster at all. The fact remains that 100% of the world’s Muslims do not practise Islam, the religion. They merely practise Islam, the cultural appendage, or Islam, the because-I-live-here-and-was-raised-here convenience pak. There is no Islam, The Religion as anyone knows it. It lived and died with Mohammed SAW/PBUH. The minute he was dead and buried, Islam CHANGED. Because it changed owners, custodians, what you will. So, it took on the personalities and idiosyncracies of not just one original owner – the last prophet, SAW/PBUH – but also that of the future followers, and kept evolving and changing and transmuting and transforming and warping with each and every new adherent, who saw in it something new and magical to claim as his/her own, just like a diamond changes its sparkle with each turn. No sparkle is ever the same as the very first one. And because it was the very first sparkle that caught his eye, any good miner will tell you that no other sparkle that comes after can ever match the very first one. Islam is that diamond in the rough that Muhammed SAW/PBUH saw, sparkle and all. Since then, it’s been polished by a lot of well-placed Khalifas, leaders and other diamond cutters – after all not everyone can work with diamonds, otherwise who will fawn at them and who buy them and who will wear them? – and worn in a lot of settings that the Khalifas, saints, walis, sufis and whatnots made – because they could, being in the special diamond-doing business – and because once a gem is set in a setting, it’s sparkle is generally within the same range of vision that that gem’s setter envisioned, and the wearer has no choice but to wear it as-is, or get it custom-made all over again, depending on the wearer’s resources – hence the moderates with better education will endeavor to customize the various settings to their preferences, leaving the destitute with just the as-is stuff – so the sparkle – and the practice of Islam, the once-Religion and now cultural commodity – changes. With every new follower the faith changes, like the ocean, heaving and hawing, flowing in and out to accommodate as needed. There is no SET STANDARD, no SET PRACTISE, no SET readymade-blame-taker-on-like-an-honest- scapegoat in Islam. There is no Vatican to look after the tiny details, while everyone vacations from Christianity. After all, who really ever “reads” the Bible, even those who do read it? Only the original owner really read it, and then too, with his own special sparkle. Peter, Paul et al then continued in change it. We are not all Peters and Pauls, but we are their goats certainly. To cure extremism, you need to cure people of the pretense of practicing religion. You need to stop creation.

Posted by Ummi Khatoon | Report as abusive
 

terrible to see Pak people getting massacred by terrorists in Lahore and Peshawar etc., sorry for the deaths of law enforcement officials.

hope it will stop at once

 

Ummi Khatoon

“The muslim world’s biggest dilemma is how to bring their barbaric real selves (ie. cultures and customs specifically and cleverly tailored to repressed lifestyle caused by lack of adequate work ethic stemming from love of remaining in ignorance because that means less work to do in life- including brain work – resulting in dire poverty and victim syndrome) in line with what is morally good and right”

-hmmm, so are the entire muslims real barbarics? You seem to have some serious problems.

” In order to HUMANIZE the Muslim world, it is not necessary to DEMONIZE it, but to threaten to ELIMINATE it.”

-hey who ever are you,keep in mind Muslims are much more humane than many others.Can you compare the violent robberies, crime, car jackings etc between Jeddah and Johannesburg for example? I have seen bit of both worlds, the muslim and non-muslim, I know who is humane and to what extent.

“100% of the world’s Muslims do not practise Islam”
” There is no Islam, The Religion as anyone knows it. It lived and died with Mohammed SAW/PBUH.”

NO MADAM ISLAM IS ALIVE
-many others do practice Islam in their daily lives in the six continents of the world. The call of Prayer, Azan is the most heard call around the world. On planet earth there is no single minute when the call for prayer is not being heard. Every day in dawn ‘Azan’ or call for prayer starts from the Islands of Southern Indonesia, carries on from Sumatra to Malaya. After one hour this practice reaches Dhaka in Bangladesh, to Calcutta Sri Lanka, and Mumbai. India resonates with the voice of Allah O Akbar. Sri Nagar in Kashmir and Sialkot in Pakistan have similar time for Morning Fajr prayer. Than from Karachi to Gwadar in Pakistan, call of prayer is made. This takes place for 40 minutes, at the same time Afghanistan Muscat, Oman call of prayer is heard, after an hour this practice starts in Baghdad, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, UAE, Kuwait. The distance to Alexandria is one hour, Syria, Egypt, Somalia and Sudan prepare for prayers, including Istanbul Turkey. From Alexandria to Tripoli,Libya in an hour’s time Azan starts including in North America Libya Tunisia. This way the call of prayer has travelled 9.5 hours from Indonesia to this far and at that particular moment it is already time for day ‘Zuhr’-day prayer in Indonesia and the entire practice starts again. Million of muslims bow before Allah five times a day, yes we need to keep our duty to Allah and say our 5 times Salah-prayer regularly with devotion. Islam is preserved, Islam never changed, our small children have recited and memorised Holy Quran, every single word is preserved as it is. You will find a Mosque where everyou are, Johannesburg or Dublin it doesnt matter. I can tell you Islam is alive, that is why this world is carrying on. The day there are no muslims every thing will fall apart and there will be the end, we will see the day of judgement.

Ummi Khatoon, I am a sunni muslim and a Pakistani, i think you are a Qadiyani-Ahmedi sect person. But I am not sure, I have my reservations on what you stated. You also seem to know little about my country, Pakistan has this Taliban problem due to Soviet Invasion of Afghanistan in 1979 and resulting super power intervention in the region. Why are you trying to attack and defame Islam?

Who ever u r, my message is Islam is alive. and I mean the real Islam, the one which you think is dead, that very Islam is alive and well.

You have launched a major attack on Islam on this blog, and this blog is about Pakistan, not religion. You are better off not starting any smear campaign against Islam over here.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

@Umair,

All religions have to be able to take frank questions from people of other denominations.

We can disagree with them, but to casually call any tough questions as smear campaigns just display’s one’s own insecurities and weaknesses.

All religions should be able to open themselves to healthy debate to debunk stereotypes and misinformation.

In this modern world, we are all intelligent people, we have the right to question and get answers, those answers which are difficult to answer, should not necessitate an angry response or seeing things as a smear campaign.

The problem is not religion itself, but the politics of religion mixed with cultural customs and tribal customs.

Any follower of any faith must and should be able to field difficult questions and not consider their position so weak that they must respond negatively.

But to add to that, hate, injustice or inequality against any religion should not be tolerated in this modern world.

All religions are equal.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive
 

Islam is tolerant and Muslims can listen to difficult questions and criticism and answer those questions.
However, maligning Islam or trying to say that Islam has died and Muslims cannot stand for Islam is very incorrect.

We saw in Europe when media printed cartoons against Muslims and made objectionable films against Muslims. We saw Muslims across the world stood up to it, Muslims have the power to defend their faith and will always do it. Now i don’t mean to resort to violence, it can be done through peaceful means, through media as well. I will not state any more than this, I have already diverted from the topic.
Once again, Both Islam and Muslims are alive and ready to stand for Islam and let others know what Islam stands for.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

As expected, the Indians on this blog turned a thread about Pakistan into a fake discussion about Islam , posing insults and smears as arguments.

The only folk who have declared that Pakistan is near-death is the international media, which thrives on conflict and some alarmist bureaucrats/politicians in the West, who need something from Pakistan. Otherwise the country is going through a difficult time, but is not going to end.

 
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