Pakistan, from Swat to Baluchistan via Waziristan

May 22, 2009

The Pakistan Army is engaged in what appears to be a very nasty little war in the Swat valley against heavily armed Taliban militants.  With journalists having left Swat, there have been no independent reports of what is going on there, though the scale of the operation can be partly measured by the huge numbers of refugees – nearly 1.7 million – who fled to escape the military offensive.

Dawn newspaper carried an interview with a wounded soldier saying the Taliban had buried mines and planted IEDs every 50 metres.  ‘They positioned snipers in holes made out of the walls of houses. They used civilians as human shields. They used to attack from houses and roofs,” it quoted him as saying. ‘They are well equipped, they have mortars. They have rockets, sniper rifles and every type of sophisticated weapons.”

Al Jazeera’s correspondent said that the battle was about to get worse as the army prepared to enter Mingora, the main town in the Swat valley. The BBC’s Urdu service managed to talk to a couple of people trapped inside Mingora, one of whom mentioned coming across an Arab among a group of militants.

President Asif Ali Zardari has talked of extending the battle into Waziristan, believed to be the hideout of al Qaeda, and now Admiral Mike Mullen, chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff, has said a U.S. military offensive in southern Afghanistan could push Taliban fighters from there into Pakistan’s Baluchistan province. (To get a sense of the geographical scale of this, scroll down to the map at the bottom of this page to see how far Quetta, the main city in Baluchistan, is from the Swat valley.) Mullen said both U.S. and Pakistani forces were aware of the risk of a spillover from Afghanistan into Pakistan, and were planning measures to prevent it.

He did not say how they would do this, although the Wall Street Journal said earlier this week that the United States was sending 25 to 50 Special Forces personnel into Baluchistan to train Pakistanis, bringing U.S. troops deeper into Pakistan. The Special Forces would focus on training Pakistan’s Frontier Corps, but were not meant to fight alongside them, it said. But it added, “A senior American military officer said he hoped Islamabad would gradually allow the U.S. to expand its training footprint inside Pakistan’s borders. A former U.S. official familiar with the plans said the deployments would ‘get more American eyes and ears’ into the strategically important region.”

U.S. officials say Quetta is the base for the Afghan Taliban and its leader Mullah Omar, who are able to hide in the Afghan refugee camps that sprang up after the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. (Mukhtar Khan at CTC Sentinel has a detailed report on the Afghan Taliban in Quetta which you can find by scrolling down on this pdf document.)

But taking on the Afghan Taliban in Baluchistan, while also chasing the Pakistan Taliban out of Swat, and pursuing al Qaeda in Waziristan would be a massive operation. It’s not clear whether there is some kind of masterplan and timeline for all this that we have yet to be told about, or if as Cyril Almeida worries in a column in Dawn, the Pakistan government is simply “steering blindfolded” with “a mix of lucky breaks and nonsense planning.”

Nor is it clear how all this fits into the plans set out by the U.S. administration of President Barack Obama for Afghanistan and Pakistan, which are looking more and more in need of revision every day.

(Photos taken at Baine Baba Ziarat mountain in Swat during trip organised by Pakistan Army/Mian Kursheed)

Comments

The pakistani situation is very deep rooted. Pakistan is a very divided nation with people of various ethnicities who have racial animosity towards each other but are playing a game in front of each other of fraternity.Pakistan needs to be divided in four smaller and more manageable states so that people should stop the blame game and start living.

Posted by saad asad | Report as abusive
 

‘Nor is it clear how all this fits into the plans set out by the U.S. administration of President Barack Obama for Afghanistan and Pakistan, which are looking more and more in need of revision every day.’

-the magnitude of problem is huge, it is going to require a very proactive and vigourous approach to tackle. Not that a so called ‘Af-Pak’ strategy is set out and everything will come right. Someone will have to do the fighting and dying. than its post war rehabilitation and reconstruction. we all know the consequences of Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. this is turning out to be another similar case.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Umair,

“From the air, there was little evidence of the fierce fighting and air strikes that the military claims have already killed more than 1,000 militants as well as some 60 soldiers,” Dawn reported.

Read more: http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2 009/05/swat_offensive_stall.php#ixzz0GHc mhKf9&B

I imagine you are in Islamabad. You do meet people from Swat. What’s the truth? How much military is exaggerating?

Posted by babag | Report as abusive
 

Gen. David Petraeus: “The Pakistanis have run out of excuses and we’ve heard it all before”

Very soon Pakistanis have to decide which one is hotter: Frying pan or Oven.

Every passing day, noose is getting tighter: Satellites, media, 21K arriving US troops, lying leaders, faking army ..

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnew s/northamerica/usa/5305344/General-Petra eus-lays-groundwork-for-success-in-Afgha nistan.html

Posted by David | Report as abusive
 

“May I also take this opportunity to assure you that Pakistan remains committed to peace and prosperity in South Asia and will continue to work with India to resolve all outstanding issues between the two countries, peacefully and in a just manner,” Mr. Zardari said in a message to Ms. Gandhi

Did Zardari accept the 10 Mumbai terrorists as Pakistanis yet? Where are Kasava’s parents?

Actions speak louder than words.

Posted by David | Report as abusive
 

The US made a mistake during the Bush years turning a blind eye towards Pakistan which helped the Taliban and the Al Qaeda escape into its territory, hoping that the Americans would leave soon. And Bush nearly came to doing that by shifting his entire focus on the dead snake of Iraq. The new US administration under Obama is more professional and seems to be doing the right thing, albeit a little too late. Obama got to inherit a huge garbage bag of problems of various kinds from Bush. But he has handled them well. At some point, the US troops will end up entering Pakistan. I don’t think the Pakistani military is capable of really handling a real war. They are good at posing next to hi tech weaponry or sitting inside cockpits of planes while parked. Their true mettle will show soon. All along this is the reason why they preferred to fight in the guise of proxy militants. At some point they are going to get slaughtered by their internal enemy, forcing US to come in and help. They may knock out OBL in the bargain. And the US might leave after that to focus on Afghanistan. And that will mean refugee crisis and violence inside Pakistan. Pakistan is right on the edge. Its leaders must be getting sleepless nights as they will be hit one by one by the assassins thirsting for revenge. This is the road map for 2009. Hope I am wrong.

 

Pakistan Army is doing a good job and all Pakistanis support their army in eliminating the India-supporter terrorists.

 

“With journalists having left Swat, there have been no independent reports of what is going on there,…”
—Modern Journalists have disgraced their profession; their impertinence has led them to being a spineless set of species & betrayers of the very ideals that they are supposedly upholding by sucking up to the establishments for monetary & personal favours.
This pillar of democracy is the most moth-eaten.

Posted by anup | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan’s Ambassador Hussain Haqqani called on Americans to donate $5 each by sending text messages and voiced hope that television networks would encourage the effort
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/art icle/ALeqM5jFdWPsuKHgoyweipuat0P-sUbXKg

President Zardari stayed in the $5,000 per night presidential suite, while PPP Chairman Bilawal Bhutto Zardari was given a separate suite, which cost $2,600 per night

The official media team was included in the 62-member delegation of Zardari, but many other journalists were also in Washington at government expense.

Listed room rates between $350 and $900 per night
http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.a sp?id=176853

Pakistan military sucks up to 75% of state budget and adding 2nd and 3rd nuclear reactors for plutonium and H-bomb capacity.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/18/world/ asia/18nuke.html?ref=asia
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2 009/05/19/lawrence.pakistan.nukes.cnn?ir ef=videosearch

Posted by David | Report as abusive
 

I have seen reports where Pakistani civilians are being encouraged to take up arms themselves in Swat – by the gov’t and military, no less – but its not getting a lot of attention in the press here. I am sorry, but even an optimist can’t help but see this as a REALLY bad sign. Couple of points:

1. Skewing the lines between civilian and military combatants is a slippery slope to high civilian body counts due to confusion. (I’m normally not a conspiracy theorist, but this would be an “easy” way to explain high body count of urban offensives.)

2. Pakistan already has an insurgency. Why make another? If citizens in other regions of Pak with a Taliban presence have to defend themselves, why would they continue to be a part of Pakistan? Haven’t they “eaten grass” in the name of military might? Many of these regions, such as Baluchistan, already have strong claims of under-representation in the gov’t, and this will only fuel their frustration.

While I will commend the individuals who fight for their personal freedom, it makes me wonder if the gov’t has any sense of what this will become. I will have to agree with the analysts who say that Zardari and Co. are just winging it with no real idea of what’s next.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia/2 009/05/2009510955252937.html

Posted by Patrick | Report as abusive
 

babag
for a daily update you can log on to PR website of Pakistan Army:
http://www.ispr.gov.pk
The properties and business in Swat has greatly damaged, there is massive exodus of people leaving the area. Army is engaged in a large scale operation, from the air, the Air force is bombing terrorist training infrastructure, hideouts, and weapons storage sites. On the ground, commandoes are ivolved in Search and destroy, ground troops are involved in fierce combat. I just lost a friend couple of days back in NWFP, there are various other casualties. there is no exaggeration, it is a real situation.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

According to the pakistanis this is how the story goes ….
during the 1970s , the indians, israelis ,americans and russians began to worry about the growing strength of ISLAM . so they decided to bring down the apex of islam (based in pakistan). the usa befriended the pakistanis by giving them aid and miliatary hardware to fight STAGED WARS against india .
Then things went to the next level , russia attacked afghanistan and the usa fooled pakistan to create taliban . then over the next 20 years these countries equiped , trained and funded taliban and finally coerced pakis to fight their proxy (the taliban).
wow it all makes sense now . why didnt i think of this before

Posted by Gill | Report as abusive
 

Gill writes: “According to the pakistanis this is how the story goes ….”

Gill,

Can you tell me where the source of this information is? Thanks.

 

Aamir Ali writes: “Pakistan Army is doing a good job and all Pakistanis support their army in eliminating the India-supporter terrorists.”

If Pakistani establishment and their leaders (military and civilian) had acted sensibly and built a stable and economically strong, secular nation, none of what we are seeing today would have happened. Pakistani military need not be fighting fellow countrymen like this. There would have been no refugee exodus of the kind we are seeing now. Salute the soldiers. There is no problem with that. But do not salute those generals like Ayub Khan, Yahya Khan, Zia Ul Hq, Musharraf etc.. They destroyed your country and you are a victim of their misplaced ideals.

Remember military is an institution like the Supreme Court or Energy department under civilian authority. Military can never run a government. If military ran a government one can only see coups, assassinations, wars and more wars. It never ends. Days of conquest and empire building, Caliphate etc are over. Join the modern world and embrace democracy and secularism. Your country still has a chance to make the right choice. It is not too late. As a citizen, do not support your military’s actions against your own country.

 

Patrick writes: “I have seen reports where Pakistani civilians are being encouraged to take up arms themselves in Swat – by the gov’t and military, no less – but its not getting a lot of attention in the press here.”

Patrick,

I guess Pakistan does not have an infrastructure to police locals. Everything is military centric, which is focused on external threat more than anything else. Culturally these people are very militant. They do not like waiting for justice and civilian administration. Most of them like power exhibited by wielding the gun. If you look at the Pashtun population, they are are farmers by profession, but also double up as warriors. And this is how it was in most of the sub-continent for centuries. Every farmer could also go to war when the need arose. These people have not changed while the other parts of the region have changed considerably due to colonial rule. In addition, Islamic teachings encourage them to stand up to the infidels. The two combined have made them what they are today. The decision they are making today to allow people to form local militia blends into the culture of their land. I guess they will function like minutemen in the US. Having a gun is a fundamental right in the US and it can never be taken away. I guess these people will favor a similar right. It is cultural preference. I don’t think it will lead to militancy. They are already full of it. But they will settle scores by shooting each other and then things will settle down into a LA gang style of living with clearly marked territories for each clan. If that is the way this society is evolving, nothing can be done about it. The way to handle them is to leave them to themselves and not interfere with them. They will keep themselves busy by internal feuds. That is why FATA and NWFP are slipping backwards when compared to the rest of the world. If the rest of the country wants to do the same, it can only be explained by cultural inclination.

 

Saad asad, Myra, others

http://dividepakistan.blogspot.com/2007/ 01/divide-pakistan-presentation-2007.htm l

listen to another PAKISTANI, syed jamaluddin, settled in Europe. On the right half of screen click on ‘watch my video presentation’ under Links.

An intriguing talk indeed; thorough, indepth analysis for all.

 

saad asaad

diversity and pluralism are not incompatible with peace and stability.
India is not a monolithic hindu nation, as Paks want to portray it.

The seven sister states around bangladesh have nothing common with kerala or punjab (indian). In fact they go with myanmaar or philippines if you know what I mean. On top of it Evangelists had worked overtime to convert them.

So I do remind you all- when Paks can not tolerate people living within their own borders, it s bit too much to expect them to develop liking towards indians or afghans. It makes no sense at all.

Making it smaller countries will ensure stability and peace, as in this latter scenario, international community can help them instead focus on economy ignoring fundamentalism. Peace and stability will pave way for trade and democratization.

 

“Pakistan’s Ambassador Hussain Haqqani called on Americans to donate $5 each…”

—-Indians would be most obliged to donate $5 each…for every terrorist killed…

Posted by anup | Report as abusive
 

Apology from Pakistan

Sunday, May 24, 2009
Qazi, Dhaka: This refers to the article titled, “Forget 1971 – says Pakistan” published in your daily on 20th May. I must clarify that I am a Pakistani individual presently living in Dhaka and do not officially represent anyone in this letter. I may dare, however, claim that the thoughts expressed below will echo most favourably among the silent majority of Pakistanis, especially the members of its fledgling civil society and particularly the people who are still being systematically disenfranchised, brutalised and tortured by the establishment there.

I am in full agreement with what the article says and am abhorred at the atrocities committed against the Bengali people in 1971. I would go a step further and strongly condemn the systemic discrimination and economic and political exploitation to which the people of former East Pakistan were subjected. The denial by successive regimes in owning up to -and apologising for- the violence perpetrated by the establishment against Bengali people is a futile effort at glossing over the sordid events of 1971 in this age of information revolution.

The mind control device of distorted history will surely give way soon and the common Pakistani will see the truth. This may not however, automatically translate into an immediate change in the stance of the establishment in Pakistan because of the weakness of democratic culture there. The voices of sanity (and therefore dissent) have been muffled through tyranny in the past. Among the numerous people who spoke up forcefully against the atrocities in Bengal, the most notable is the late poet Ahmad Faraz who addressed the establishment as : paishawar qaatilo tum sipahi nahin (you are professional hit-men, not soldiers) and was arrested and tortured for that.

I am of the view that tendering of an apology by Pakistan will not only help build bridges between the two nations but will also infuse a healthy tradition in Pakistani polity, helping it to mature to face its past demons and learn how to avoid them in the future. In the end, as a Pakistani, I follow the tradition set by a delegation of Pakistani civil society members in 2007 in Dhaka and tender a heartfelt apology to my Bangladeshi brethren for all the violence perpetrated against them and beg forgiveness. I hope that this will be followed by a more collective and official apology by my country.
http://www.thedailystar.net/newDesign/ne ws-details.php?nid=89516

Myra

the Paks disstorted perception of 1971 war was the result of sysytematic and perpetual brainwash program followed by Pak generals and administration alike. From visual/ print media to school text books, all, have convincingly covered up bengali massacre. The denial was complete. An international tribunal should investigate into this excesses by Pak Army. If not, similar atrocities will repeat in all western provinces wherein ethnic animosity against punjabi army is simmering.

 

Is Pakistan a lost cause for China? Or US presence is scaring China?

Even Iran paid $350 million aid to Pakistan at the FoDP meeting in Japan. China paid ZERO.

China provides $1 mln in aid to Sri Lanka where 250K people are displaced, but not much to Pakistan where 2.5 million people are displaced.
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-0 5/05/content_11318312.htm

Posted by David | Report as abusive
 

Oops .. I forgot!
My Chinese friend used to say “There is no free lunch”

Posted by David | Report as abusive
 

“Pakistan Army is doing a good job and all Pakistanis support their army in eliminating the India-supporter terrorists.”

lol, this shows that you have been completely brain washed by your govt.. Pakistan is the one that has been supporting terrorists against India.. they have been lying to the whole world till now which has been exposed in a most shamefaced manner.. admit your stupidity and atleast now get rid of the terrorists on your soil.. they are not anyone’s friends unlike what the pakistan govt wants its people to believe..

Posted by nitya | Report as abusive
 

There’s a huge amount of repetition in the comments here. I’m not sure what anyone hopes to gain by repeating the same invective on every blog post, but it certainly does not advance the discussion.

Be specific and address the post (about Swat, Waziristan and Baluchistan).

@ the Indians on this blog. Umair is one of the few Pakistanis who posts comments regularly. It doesn’t make for a very balanced discussion if you all feel compelled to attack him. Rather it gives the impression of bullying, which I’m sure is not the kind of image you want to project of India. And if Pakistanis feel they can’t post here without being attacked, it rather destroys the discussion.

Myra

Posted by Myra MacDonald | Report as abusive
 

It seems that currently the Pakistani army has got an upper hand over the Taliban. I guess that there has been a presence of a strong military leadership who is responsible for the ongoing battles. But I have got some worries for the army. Their government is unpopular. The soldiers will not be willing to sacrifice their life for the unworthy political leaders. The outcome of the war is unsure.

Posted by nguyen | Report as abusive
 

Myra writes: “the Indians on this blog. Umair is one of the few Pakistanis who posts comments regularly. It doesn’t make for a very balanced discussion if you all feel compelled to attack him. Rather it gives the impression of bullying, which I’m sure is not the kind of image you want to project of India.”

Myra,

You need to be fair. Looks like you are longing for Pakistani participation at any cost in your blogs. We have no issues with that. But people like Umair write nonsense and you know that very well. Sometimes arguments do get out of hand, but that is due to frustration of not getting people like him to come out of their emotional and blind stance. We have been at the receiving end historically for a long time. I do not know which country you belong to. But if your country had an adversary like Pakistan, you will be no different from Indians. The West has been biased against India for a long time due to its own geo-political interests and they have allowed Pakistan to cause so much of regional damage to itself and the others. And I see that even in ordinary Westerners. We do not care about what the world thinks about Indian bloggers. We write what we write and that is in response to how we are treated. If you are begging Pakistanis like Umair to write more, surely we will stop coming here. I see an inherent bias in your words. But this is your forum. You get to call the shots. All Indians, I don’t think you will get much by trying to make sense in blogs posted by Westerners like this. May be, it is time to go elsewhere. She wants Pakistanis to be allowed to write as much nonsense as they can just so that they can participate. She knows that many Pakistanis do not write here because they know the truth and they cannot admit it.

 

Thanks Myra. I agree with you. This discussion often gets sidetracked, repetitious and boring. I don’t mean to offend anybody, but a word limit would be nice.

Pakistani terror network spreads from Afghanistan to Dagistan. So it is very hard to stay focussed. When we deal with mud, we all get dirty.

I believe Umair doesn’t represent normal sane Pakistanis. I have seen better Pakistanis. He is working for ISI’s blogging unit and using this blog as Army’s bulletin board. He is using this blog to advocate for Let, JeM, ISI, JuD and others.

But anyway, irerespective of what others do, we, Indians, can do better. New Indian Government has named China as No-1 threat to peace and democracy. So, China will keep us busy now.

I appreciate your patience and endeavor.

Posted by David | Report as abusive
 

Myra writes: “the Indians on this blog. Umair is one of the few Pakistanis who posts comments regularly. It doesn’t make for a very balanced discussion if you all feel compelled to attack him. Rather it gives the impression of bullying, which I’m sure is not the kind of image you want to project of India.”

Myra,
I 100% agree with you. Majority of the time when I read these comments from the Indians I get disgusted and walk away. This is true about all the blogs. The discussion is very unproductive and is not even on the topic. Mr. David is calling Umair ISI bulletin board, reading his comments gives me impression of him being on Indians government payroll. The discussion on this site is very unbalanced, feels like mad dogs are ready to attack you and I know few people who stopped reading this site.

Posted by babag | Report as abusive
 

Mauryan writes,
“You need to be fair. Looks like you are longing for Pakistani participation at any cost in your blogs. We have no issues with that. But people like Umair write nonsense and you know that very well. Sometimes arguments do get out of hand, but that is due to frustration of not getting people like him to come out of their emotional and blind stance. We have been at the receiving end historically for a long time. I do not know which country you belong to. But if your country had an adversary like Pakistan……….”

Mauryan,
If you really forget for a minute that you an Indian and read these comments, what impression do you get? Your comments of West treating India unfairly are not right. I am sure majority of the Pakistani including myself feel the same about our country. Our roots are the same. Pakistan has a big problem. Think about if both of our countries have good relations what kind of power that would be. To ordinary Pakistani, present state of affairs is life as usual. Pakistan is not a failed state and is not going to disintegrate. It’s just being looked at under a microscope. Having a constructive discussion will benefit everybody. You talk like you have a mission to put down Pakistan and it’s citizen.

Posted by babag | Report as abusive
 

Myra writes: “the Indians on this blog. Umair is one of the few Pakistanis who posts comments regularly. It doesn’t make for a very balanced discussion if you all feel compelled to attack him. Rather it gives the impression of bullying, which I’m sure is not the kind of image you want to project of India.”

Myra,

You just unfairly smeared all of the Indians with a brush.

Umair represents the wafer thin Punjabi Elite in the Gated Communities of Rawalpindi and Islamabad. Umair often says things that are so one-sided, so pro-Islamic and so-pro War, that Indians cannot but feel compelled to give a fitting rebuttal.

Just to be fair to the Indians, you often fail to recognize many of the huge historical, cultural and religious injustices inflicted by Pakistan, its Army and ISI upon the Indians and Bangladeshi’s.

In this regards, the Western people and to some extent yourself, are complicit and turn a blind eye to things that are morally wrong, historically incorrect and through this complicity of not doing more to hold Pakistani accountable in a public forum like, for all its misdeads and misadventures, to some extent provide tacit permission to keep doing so.

Indians have never had a sense of a shred of justice. You being an expert of south asian affairs should know this and if you do, should demonstrate it.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive
 

Myra
“it rather destroys the discussion….”

—what’s the ground for discussion??? Pakistan the ‘victim’ of terrorism? who’s responsible for the IDP’s? A foreign force or the brash & insensitive approach of Pak Est.? or how terrorism is OK & of mere academic interest if directed towards India as a ‘strategy’ but a disease if hypothetically threatening the ‘first world’? (LET is a miscreant & Al-Queda a monster)… any reason to believe that a ‘constructive discussion’ is possible? Kindly enlighten!

-If calling a spade a spade is ‘destructive’ – so be it.

Posted by anup | Report as abusive
 

Bagbag, you joined the party late, here are some Masterpiece constructive comments Umair has posted:

“Officially India is enemy no.1 and anaylst are predicting there is a very real chance of of another 26/11 type terrorist strike on India. You must also know Pakistan is rapidly adding nuclear weapons to the already 60-100 warheads, so both nuclear and conventional capability is being enhanced as the threat increases.”
- Posted by Umair

Did anybody here said India is going on war with Pakistan???

“if we go down we all go down. In hindi it goes like this “hum tu dube hein sanam, tujk ko bhi le dube gae”. ”
- Posted by Umair

Another example of jealousy.

“Lets wait for that much anticipated spectacular terrorist strike on India and see if you b*stards have the balls to attack Pakistan.”
-posted by Umair

Anyone who jumps into Pakistan NOW will be surely a b*stard. But IDIOT is more suitable word.

“Do you know now why Pakistan regards India as a threat greater than Taliban. Even as of now, only 6000 soldiers have been redeployed from Indian border to the offensive against terrorists. The bulk of Pakistan is still positioned against India”
-posted by Umair

Pakistanis want to keep their animosity with India at all prices.

This forum is not a Pakistan bashing forum. All we are saying is that Pakistan is facing hard time because of its own policies. Pakistan kept army on top of everything and made enemies out of the neighbors. If they don’t change their policy NOW, it will be too late.

Pakistanis seems so strong against India, and are proud of their brave Army. Why could not they stand against USA. Why did they offer help to USA in Afghanistan. Kashmir issue was near solution earlier, why did they do a Kargil. How its possible that brute force attack from competent Pakistan army cannot finish Taliban till now. Why did they let Taliban to flourish this strong.

These are some questions Pakistanis have to ask from themselves. We don’t want answers either.

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive
 

“Officially India is enemy no.1 and anaylst are predicting there is a very real chance of of another 26/11 type terrorist strike on India. You must also know Pakistan is rapidly adding nuclear weapons to the already 60-100 warheads, so both nuclear and conventional capability is being enhanced as the threat increases.”

Given the history between India and Pakistan what you think India would be considered, “friend no. 1″? Yo need to understand terrorism is an international problem. Yes Pakistan has part in it, but so do USA, England, Saudi etc. Pakistan Govt is not going to tell terrorist go attack Delhi. Terrorist in Pakistan show up from everywhere; Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Arabs etc. Pakistan has not blamed these countries. Point is that this problem should be taken as a global problem. India should take defensive measures to counter this thread and not to create further tensions between these 2 countries. As far as atomic sites are concern, they are being expanded for the last few years. There is nothing new in there. If I remember correctly funding for these projects were cut recently. Its just a media hype. What difference does it make to have 100 instead of 60 weapons.
What I understand all Umair’s comment (bad) are made out of frustration. If 10 people attack me I would do the same thing. If we all keep our prejudices at home and have constructive discussion and stay on the topic, may be we will be able to make a difference.
Also remember Pakistan is 1/8Th of India in just about everything. If all Indians get on higher grouds and pee at the same time towards Pakistan, you can flood the whole country.

Posted by babag | Report as abusive
 

Bagbag:
“Given the history between India and Pakistan what you think India would be considered, “friend no. 1?? ”

Did India said that too ? If Pakistan does not support terrorism directed towards India, we will not bother saying anything about Pak, how many comments you find here about Myamar/Srilanka/China or Nepal here. We have more important issues to deal with.

“Pakistan Govt is not going to tell terrorist go attack Delhi. ”

Yes Sir they have said that in past and they have given support,weapons,money everything required also. What do you think about Kargil, was it Terrorists or Pak Army ?

“Terrorist in Pakistan show up from everywhere; Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Arabs etc. Pakistan has not blamed these countries.”

Pakistan cannot blame any other country for its terrorism, because Pakistan was the culprit in creating Isalamic redicals, Yes USA was also one. But speaking today USA is working against it, why can’t Pakistan ?

“India should take defensive measures to counter this thread and not to create further tensions between these 2 countries.”

India is doing exactly that, who said we are at war with Pakistan, but it takes two to tango. Did you see Pakistan flip flop on Mumbai attack ?

“As far as atomic sites are concern, they are being expanded for the last few years. There is nothing new in there.”

We don’t care if Pakistan has 100 or 1000 Nuclear weapons (As long as Pak behaves), Russia N.Korea(Courtesy AQ Khan) , USA, Israel has them too. Umair are you reading.

“Also remember Pakistan is 1/8Th of India in just about everything. If all Indians get on higher grouds and pee at the same time towards Pakistan, you can flood the whole country.”

Haha thats funny, But you are inviting some bad language from Umair on this.

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive
 

Myra,

On this blog, I’ve seen tempers run high and sometimes comments become personal. But, that is a far cry from being labeled as destructive. The acussations and counter-acussations even out in the large scheme of things. Thankfully the discussion is much better than fanning juicy conspiracy theories as to how the CIA/Mossad was behind 9/11 or how R&AW is supporting Taliban or how Mumbai terrorist attacks were conspired by R&AW and Mossad.

Now, coming to the current article. Many military plans are made behind the glare of the media such as the recently uncovered cooperation between the US and PA in drone attacks. Obama’s Af-Pak strategy will have forseen a large scale military action followed by equally strong relief efforts for the displaced and the injured.

Posted by Nikhil | Report as abusive
 

@ the Indians on this blog. Umair is one of the few Pakistanis who posts comments regularly. It doesn’t make for a very balanced discussion if you all feel compelled to attack him. Rather it gives the impression of bullying, which I’m sure is not the kind of image you want to project of India. And if Pakistanis feel they can’t post here without being attacked, it rather destroys the discussion.

- Posted by Myra MacDonald

Myra, it’s nobody’s fault here, that for whatever reason, there aren’t enough Pakistanis on this blog, which is about Pakistan. I don’t think anyone’s representing their countries on this blog. We’re all just individuals, expressing our own personal views. If a certain point of view is more common than the other, I don’t think it should be termed as bullying.

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive
 

Topics are:
Pakistan: Now or Never?
Pakistan, from Swat to Baluchistan via Waziristan

How did India or Indians get into this mess?

Posted by Parcy | Report as abusive
 

Punjabiyaar:
“Did India said that too ? If Pakistan does not support terrorism directed towards India, we will not bother saying anything about Pak, how many comments you find here about Myamar/Srilanka/China or Nepal here. We have more important issues to deal with.”

Let me repeat myself. Terrorism should be taken in global contest. I will just touch few things and then move on. Otherwise we will be arguing forever. The Kargil issue should be considered with the Siachen glacier. India occupied that area which threatened Pakistan’s interest. To me, that was a tit for tat. Timing was wrong, but it was a good idea. Kashmir is a disputed territory, Pakistan does not believe it’s India’s “atoottang”. Oh boy, do I hate that word. Since India is a big democracy (sarc) and it believes that all Kashmiris want to be part of India, it has nothing to loose. Have Plebiscite as promised by Nehru and UN and I beleive whole Continent’s problems will be solved.
You wrote “as long as Pak behaves”. Now I am getting frustrated like Umair. Pakistan is not India’s Puppy. You need to understand that Pakistani people are very patriotic and they will not bend over to please India. Of course, unless the country is USA with deep pockets (haha).
Umair is not Pakistan, what he writes is not because of jealousy. You can be jealous of a person not a country and belive me I am proud to be Pakistani.
I tried to participate many times before but then decided against it because I felt like I am stepping onto a bee hive.
Have a great day.

Posted by babag | Report as abusive
 

Babag writes: “If you really forget for a minute that you an Indian and read these comments, what impression do you get?”

We do that sometimes. I have looked at things from others’ perspective. I have my own views and solutions for Kashmir. You probably missed the heated arguments between myself and my fellow countrymen. And I am not alone in my views about Kashmir. If you read Pakistanis’ comments, they do not sound rosy either. I see two Pakistans – one that is at the height of hospitality and style. I have met those Pakistanis and have been awed by their suaveness and polished manners. Then there is another Pakistan which can be mostly represent by Umair who frequents this forum. I guess the latter is the majority in Pakistan. And I have clashed with such Pakistanis in the news groups which have been there for a while before web browsers came about. As I see it, nothing has changed in Pakistani view point. And I do not understand why Indians alone should look at it from Pakistani stand point, understand it and not reciprocate our response. Don’t you think it is fair based on what kind of attitude one sees for his response?

“Your comments of West treating India unfairly are not right.”

You will not feel because you will not understand Indian point of view, even though you expect me to see yours.
India has been at the receiving end for a long time. The West has dealt with our region with two policies. They simply turned a blind eye to a lot of things Pakistan did, just in order to get their priorities met. The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and America’s fight was not done in love of Pakistanis. It was done to settle the scores for Vietnam. To do that, they turned a blind eye to a lot of things that Pakistan did with India-centric plans. Pakistan generals had begun to assume that the West will always take sides with them against India so long as Pakistan kept them happy by doing what they wanted. And if India decided to move its troops, the West did not step in to stop the confrontation with peace as the reason. India’s war with Pakistan would derail their objectives and that was the main reason. The West wanted to fight terrorists. But they ignored India’s plight facing the same problem and turned a blind eye to terrorism supported by Pakistan inside India until now. When they realized that this double standard in dealing with global terrorism is what is behind the problem increasing instead of decreasing. And we have seen a lot of anti-Indian policies in US, Canada, UK etc during the cold war years. No respect was paid for it being a democracy and having institutions of merit. What irks most of us Indians is us being equated with your country in all angles by Western analysts, including those who write these blogs.

“I am sure majority of the Pakistani including myself feel the same about our country. Our roots are the same. Pakistan has a big problem. Think about if both of our countries have good relations what kind of power that would be.”

It is easy to advise. I guess you have not seen our previous responses much. Many times I and other Indians have said that India is not an enemy of Pakistan and asked for confirmation from your side and not one Pakistani responded positively. We said many of the macho myths propagated by your military are false with references from neutral sources. We have said many times that we’d like to move on and are not interested in Pakistan’s issues. We end up responding here and elsewhere because a lot of things are assumed about India without any proof and if the common public can have the attitude, imagine your establishment. Some claim India has 7 embassies in Afghanistan whose only purpose is to destabilize Pakistan.

“To ordinary Pakistani, present state of affairs is life as usual.”

That’s ok with me. I have no comments to make about it.

“Pakistan is not a failed state and is not going to disintegrate. It’s just being looked at under a microscope.”

Pakistan fits the definition of a rogue state. Disintegration is one of the possible scenarios based on what one sees going on. You must thank the Americans for having survived this far.

“Having a constructive discussion will benefit everybody. You talk like you have a mission to put down Pakistan and it’s citizen.”

No I do not. Do not judge by a few responses of mine. I have expressed words of sympathy for your country. I have said what you have said – a lot could have been done if Pakistan and India had been friendly. But our efforts at peace building have been derailed by Pakistan (be it your military or non-state actors, they are all from Pakistan).

Advising others is easy. But you must do your part too. We are more than willing to work for friendship. But treat us with respect. Somewhere you have mentioned Pakistan is 1/8th the size of India. Then a small nation should not equate itself with a larger and more powerful nation and try to drag its feet. It is as simple as that. None of the neighboring countries bordering India have done that. You must think why Pakistan alone is doing what it is doing and expects Indians to be accommodating your attitude.

 

Babag writes: “The Kargil issue should be considered with the Siachen glacier. India occupied that area which threatened Pakistan’s interest. To me, that was a tit for tat. Timing was wrong, but it was a good idea.”

Kargil was inside India’s LoC. Siachien glacier is claimed by both India and Pakistan. It is unfortunate that war is going on to protect this barren piece of land and lives of soldiers are lost.

You seem to approve of Pakistani military’s actions. Kargil mis-adventure was carried out by Musharraf when the head of the government was not even briefed of it and the official government’s permission was not sought. So it is an illegal action. I am surprised that as a citizen of Pakistan you are supporting it. Tomorrow if a military general in Pakistan ignores the civilian government and decides to nuke Delhi, who is to be held responsible? I’d blame you, the Pakistani public for supporting the military in that case.

War is the last resort for anything. Nations should seek to settle matters diplomatically. Pakistan seems to have no belief in diplomacy. This because of your military being too powerful in your country. It has its own foreign policies.

In 1972, Bhutto signed the Simla accord with Indira Gandhi. That negated all the previous agreements on Kashmir and declared that all future issues on this region would be bilaterally resolved. If it is a signed treaty, then it must be honored. The UN 1949 resolution became null and void by the Simla accord. And your Prime Minister’s signature is on it. Are you saying it is not valid?

My solution, based on today’s situation is – Declare LoC as the de-facto border between the two nations. Kurdish regions are part of Turkey and Iraq and no one is objecting to that. No Indian government can give up Kashmir now and expect to survive. The old generation is gone and the new Indians do not see Kashmir as a special case. My views are different, but I live in a democratic country. Majority decides everything and we have to stand by it. So the only practical solution is to declare the borders and move on with our lives. After that Pakistan should sign a treaty not to support any insurgencies inside India. Trying to bleed India by insurgency has not worked. It worked against the Soviet Union because they invaded Afghanistan against international rules. India did not invade Kashmir. It had to send its troops in to prevent your country’s tribal men from pillaging, rape and plundering. And the UN resolution at that time required both India and Pakistan to vacate their militaries. Pakistan refused because a plebiscite at the time would have given an overwhelming support against Pakistan. The Kashmiris were miffed at Pakistani tribals then. Until 1989, life was normal there. After the Soviets left Afghanistan, all the insurgents who fought them were redirected towards Kashmir and the region has never been the same. And from an Indian stand point, it has its prestige and pride. It can never let a bunch of armed thugs take them on and give up against them. Our military will never do that. And that belligerent and overt act by the Pakistani establishment has only made things worse for diplomacy. India views it like dealing with hijackers. We cannot be coerced by a much smaller nation (your own words). And you do not have US supplying stinger missiles to knock our Indian helicopters. No Kashmiri refugees are pouring into Pakistan due to Indian genocide, which was the case with Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. The two events are viewed similarly in Pakistan and we know it is not. And Pakistan wasted away all its money trying to topple India. And we have been saying go do something constructive. Engaging us militarily won’t work. And we can handle any nuclear threats as well. Hope this helps explain my stand point.

 

babag / umair etc.

—Remember. Pakistan ‘is’ because we Indian’s ‘say so’ – the day you’ll cross all limits – we shall ignore your very existence & from that moment Pakistan shall ‘cease to be’…

Posted by anup | Report as abusive
 

Have been going throught this interesting albeit emotional discussion. To the many Indians on this forum, i respect your individual perspectives on the situation in Pakistan the reality however is quite different. Pakistan is faced by a myraid of problems, some which are its own creations whilst others are the outcome of a geo-politics. The militant problem in North Pakistan and Balochistan is the lethal residue of the cold war, it was short sightedness on the part of Pakistan & the west not to think beyond the cold war. Conflicts end, strategic purposes of conflict are served but emotions linger. Forget Pakistan (the state) many of the militants who were trained by the CIA/ISI were left without a war. A soldier with a gun and no purpose found comfort in the Kashmir conflict and (soon after) the conflict in Aghanistan. Faced with a formidable foe they chose a softer target- Pakistan. From there the conflict has moved far beyond the conventional circles and into the settled areas of Pakistan.

But now where do we go from here? Problem or Opportunity? I think an oppurtunity, Pakistan does not need the United States, the EU and the rag tag FoDP to solve its problems but rather more engagement with Iran, India, and Aghanistan to come to some sembelence of a solution. The roadblocks on the way is changing the mindset of the governments concerned.

If Kashmir is a bilateral topic since the Simla accord (as someone mentioned earlier), i havent seen much progress. Is it time for the international community to (finally) get involved to resolve this long standing dispute? With regards to the ISI and its international network causing global concerns. I have yet to see any intelligence agency with saint like features. every intelligence agency has its hidden skeletons. The 1971 war and the treatment of the Bengali’s by the Pakistan Army is an unfortunate and seldomly discussed travesty of history, but lets be very clear the Indian Army actions in Kashmir, Eastern India and its involvement in the Tamil conflict does not inspire much confidence either.

Posted by Farrukh | Report as abusive
 

Anup:
” Pakistan ‘is’ because we Indian’s ’say so’ – the day you’ll cross all limits – we shall ignore your very existence & from that moment Pakistan shall ‘cease to be’…”

-In your imaginations Anup, you are free to induldge into any sort of fantasy. But remeber Pakistan is a reality staring right in to your face. So just close your eyes, say there is no Pakistan. Take a deep breath and you will feel better. I will laugh here in Pakistan and enjoy the weather.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Topics are:
Pakistan: Now or Never?
Pakistan, from Swat to Baluchistan via Waziristan

How did India or Indians get into this mess?
- Posted by Parcy

WOW… at long last… some one asks exactly the right question….

“How did India or Indians get into this mess?”

well said parcy…

for all i know we are all wasting out time here blogging filling bits and bytes into web pages…

if you really care about your country go forth do some thing that contributes to your nations well being… or at least…. vote wisely…

rony- indian

Posted by rony | Report as abusive
 

@ Topic
While its wise on US’s part to not get involved in Baluchistan directly as it makes ordinary citizens wary of US presence and making them wonder if its their war or not. US presence deep inside will be resented by all Pakistanis forcing them to implicitly or morally supporting the Taliban fighters whi will then call themselves as liberators from foreign forces.

At the same time if the Pakistan army is fighting on so many fronts then its resources will be stretched. According to some reports I have read their are 15000 army troops in Swat fighting around 4000 terrorists.
Also, since the Taliban uses guerilla war tactics, retreating to their caves when they suffer losses, thus the army troops will have to ideally stay after forcing the militants out of a particular area.

For this to happen, probably more troops will have to moved from Pakistan’s eastern border. May be this is all happening at US insistence and that is why US is trying to make Pakistan understand that the threat is not on their eastern border but its there inside Pakistan.

@Umair,
I have answered your questions here:
http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2009/0 5/20/how-much-time-does-pakistan-have/

@Myra,
You are clearly biased against Indians and India (I understand your forte is Pakistan). Why don’t you comment on statements like “We are waiting for Mumbai style attacks so that Pak army can Teach Indian army a lesson”. ?

It is statements like these which provoke Indians.

I agree that discussions get veered around the same topics time and again but when you have Indians and Pakistanis involved its bound to happen and as a journalist you should understand that.

Also, if there is only Umair here on the blog then it is not our fault, we don’t say Pakistanis are not allowed on the blog, we would love to have a meaningful discussion with them. Its completely unfair of you to assume that we (Indians) scare off the Pakistani bloggers from your blog posts.

Umair is not attacked because he is a Pakistani but because he constantly says that supporting terrorism is a strategic neccessity for Pakistan. For every other thing he says We have the Bomb.
Why are you silent on that?
If you are supposed to moderate the comments on your blog then it has to be done with an unbiased point of view.

Don’t say that now Indians are attacking you now, We are just raising certain questions may be you can contemplate if you are biased or not and then respond to us. Treat this comment as “Food for Thought”.

Also, since you write regulalry on Pakistan then may I know if Pakistan is doing anything on LeT and other India specific terrorist organisations based out of Pakistan? May be you can raise certain questions on that too.

Posted by Aman | Report as abusive
 

Aman wrote:
“@Myra,
You are clearly biased against Indians and India (I understand your forte is Pakistan). Why don’t you comment on statements like “We are waiting for Mumbai style attacks so that Pak army can Teach Indian army a lesson”. ?

It is statements like these which provoke Indians.”
—————————————————
And it is INDIANS who respond in kind, with character attacks, generalizations, and (I hate this one the most) pseudo-magnamity. I promise you that if I had to pick a “side” in the greater context of this argument, it would be India. But it would be because I thought that Indians have developed a more mature approach to diplomacy, not because there are more of you. Why hasn’t any Indian blasted anup yet for his “You exist because we say so” rant? Or Mauryan’s constant claims of “6 months till Pakistan disintegrates”, which I have personally read from him for at least 2 months now. Shouldn’t it be 4 months at this point? When Umair steps over the line, another Pakistani usually critiques his post. Only one regular Indian commentator on this blog actually argues without stepping over the line, or at least apologizes when it happens. This commentator is a tribute to education and open-mindedness, while at the same time has a zeal for information to back up opinions. I’ll let you figure out which one. Food for thought.

And yes, the “world” is watching this blog. And Indians appear to bully Pakistanis. You know this is not true. I know this is not true. So please show that maturity I am giving you credit for, and save your vitriol for domestic politics, where everyone hugs (or at least quits punching) at the end of the day. Aman, this isn’t a shot at you. But at least with you I will get a discussion, not a “He started it” sermon.

Posted by Patrick | Report as abusive
 

@ Myra’s “Asian Union” question

I don’t forsee this in the near future. This idea is used to scare the crap out of people here in the States, but its just not likely. While having many interests in common, Asian nations also have some deep-seeded grievances with each other. Also, we have a saying here in the South:
“Too many chiefs and not enough indians”
(in reference to native americans, no pun intended)

Do you really see Russia conceding influence in central asia to India? Do you see China giving India back its land? Or possibly Russia demanding (and receiving) fair trade with China? Western Europe did not willingly cede “control” to America. It took two wars, and a military “bail-out” to get to that point. Asia’s powers are not at that point yet.

Posted by Patrick | Report as abusive
 

Patrick writes: “When Umair steps over the line, another Pakistani usually critiques his post. ”

Could you tell me when any Pakistani criticized Mr. Umair’s vitriol crossing the line? Two months ago, Pakistani military was not going after the Taliban. And the Taliban was expanding. Based on that one could project what the outcome would be. And that looked like six months. Even the American General Dave Petreus predicted that. Do you think PA is fighting the Taliban out of its own interest? The US is fighting the Taliban using PA as the proxy. It is like forecasting the American economy. Four months ago it was on the brink of collapse and could have continued collapsing. The same case with Pakistan.

What you will not understand are the sentiments involved. You are a third party with no emotional attachments to either side. So it would be difficult for you to understand why people respond to each other this way. If I read Israeli/Palestinian blog or a Shia/Sunni blog, I might find it hard to understand the venom or the feelings on both sides. But I am not going to demand that they act mature. Emotions obscure maturity. And there is a vast history that is behind those emotions.
The reason why arguments deviate from the main topic most of the time is because of the historic reasons behind the attitude.

 

Patrick,
I don’t deny that some Indians on this blog have a tendency to go overboard and they need to check their agression. I condemn it and I don’t think it is the right way of discussing things.

As far as Myra is concerned, I still feel if someone is playing moderator then both sides should be reprimanded for crossing the line. I wouldn’t have had any problem if Myra had also asked Pakistani bloggers (even if Umair is alone) not to cross the line. That would have shown that a person is not biased.

I was not saying Myra shouldn’t ask Indian bloggers to refrain from making personal statements (I have done it myself). I was asking Myra to be fair to both the sides.

Posted by Aman | Report as abusive
 

Patrick writes: “Mauryan’s constant claims of “6 months till Pakistan disintegrates”, which I have personally read from him for at least 2 months now. Shouldn’t it be 4 months at this point?”

Tell me why there is a blog in this forum titled thus:

http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2009/0 5/20/how-much-time-does-pakistan-have/#c omments

“”When Umair steps over the line, another Pakistani usually critiques his post.”"

This is news to me. I have never seen a Pakistani restrict Umair for writing nonsense. But we have curtailed each other whenever one of us crossed the line. The reason why arguments get out of control is because of the deep history that is lingering in the people’s hearts. It may not be understandable for someone not a native of this region. Likewise, I may find the animosity between Turks vs Greeks or Turks vs Armenians or Shias vs Sunnis or Serbs vs Bosnians or Jews vs Arabs or Capitalists vs Communists odd. But I understand their deep sentiments coming from centuries of rivalry. I wouldn’t advise them to hold their horses as a result. Human emotions are difficult to feel if they do not affect us.

 

Patrick
“Why hasn’t any Indian blasted anup yet for his “You exist because we say so” rant?”

—give it a try baby…

Posted by anup | Report as abusive
 

@What I understand all Umair’s comment (bad) are made out of frustration. If 10 people attack me I would do the same thing. If we all keep our prejudices at home and have constructive discussion and stay on the topic, may be we will be able to make a difference.
- Posted by babag

-Babag, if you say this, you should be in a good position to understand that Indians are frsutrated not from the bloggers–thta’s part of the game-Indians are frustrated from Pakistan-sponsored terrorism in India. I know it is rhetorical statement, but a truth. Get your facst right about your this statement “Pakistan Govt is not going to tell terrorist go attack Delhi.”. Pakistani govt does. Let me give you a stinker, Pakistan’s actions have resemble those of a terrorist organization and thugs, top Paki scientist is a thief.

Myra: I undesrtand the repetition part of your statement. But on participation,if Pakis cannot come on the blog, it is just that they cannot face the logic. When I have suffered through 15yr Punjab terrorism, sponsored by Pakistan, I have everyright to whip a Pakistani who denies it.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

BagBag Writes:
“Let me repeat myself. Terrorism should be taken in global contest.”

Terrorism is only global when it happens in US UK or western world. Pakistanis do not believe whatever happens in India is Terrorism. For them its freedom fight. Who do you think supported Sikh terrorism in Punjab ?

“The Kargil issue should be considered with the Siachen glacier. India occupied that area which threatened Pakistan’s interest. To me, that was a tit for tat. Timing was wrong, but it was a good idea.”

Kargil is in Indian side, Siachen was a disputed area, do you see the difference. Besides this what did you get from it ? One more defeat added in Pakistan list of army failures and one added in Indian wins. You say it was a good idea, do you think Indians will let Kashmir go like this ? Ok give it one more try.

“Kashmir is a disputed territory, Pakistan does not believe it’s India’s “atoottang”. Oh boy, do I hate that word. Since India is a big democracy (sarc) and it believes that all Kashmiris want to be part of India, it has nothing to loose. Have Plebiscite as promised by Nehru and UN and I beleive whole Continent’s problems will be solved.”

If Kashmir is disputed and Plebiscite is yet to made, on what grounds Pakistan recognizes China’s claims on the Aksai chin areas. UN also told Pakistan army to leave Kashmir, which is not done till date. Even if its for argument, Pakistan is equally responsible as India is. Then why terrorist organizations like JuD, Let and JeM are not attacking Pak establishments and instead doing welfare in Pak.

“You wrote “as long as Pak behaves”. Now I am getting frustrated like Umair. Pakistan is not India’s Puppy. You need to understand that Pakistani people are very patriotic and they will not bend over to please India.”

If you dont spread terrorism in your neibour’s house and don’t try misadventures like Kargil every now and then, this does not mean that you are a puppy. India has defeated Pak in every overt war, it can also do it in covert war. Only thing is we feel its coward to kill civillians.

“Umair is not Pakistan, what he writes is not because of jealousy. You can be jealous of a person not a country and belive me I am proud to be Pakistani.”

Umair represents an average well educated Pakistani. If he say “if we go down, we will take you with us” You don’t need brains of Einstein to figure out what an uneducated countryman think about us. By the way its not Umair’s fault, if he is born in Pakistan after 1971, most likely he is venom fed child. See this link, this is report from SDPI Pakistan.

http://www.sdpi.org/whats_new/reporton/S tate%20of%20Curr&TextBooks.pdf

Have a great day.

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive
 

BagBag:

http://www.sdpi.org/whats_new/reporton/S tate%20of%20Curr&TextBooks.pdf

Scroll directly to page 37, its a bit long with too many credits.

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive
 

Babag writes: “The Kargil issue should be considered with the Siachen glacier. India occupied that area which threatened Pakistan’s interest. To me, that was a tit for tat. Timing was wrong, but it was a good idea”

Siachien is a barren glacier, just like Aksai Chin. Pakistan cedes this barren region to China from Kashmir that it calls as a disputed territory, yet to be settled through the UN. But Pakistan fights India on Siachien. Why is that? What gave Pakistan the right to cede a region that is not officially its territory yet? I just want a consistent answer. I am not asking this question from a tit-for-tat perspective. I see a double standard in Pakistan’s policy. I’d like an explanation from a Pakistani perspective.

 

Mauryan
“Pakistan cedes this barren region to China from Kashmir that it calls as a disputed territory, yet to be settled through the UN. But Pakistan fights India on Siachien. Why is that?”

I asked exactly same question in my earlier post, lets see if anybody from Pakistan comes up with a sane answer,but I doubt if they have something on it.

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive
 

Punjabiyaar writes: “I asked exactly same question in my earlier post, lets see if anybody from Pakistan comes up with a sane answer,but I doubt if they have something on it.”

You are never going to get an honest reply from Pakistanis. They parrot only one thing all the time. May be Myra or someone “neutral” might step in and admonish us Indians for being rude towards Pakistanis on this forum and using foul language. This is the cycle I see repeated on these biased blogs.

 

Guys, you are going way off topic again.

That would be ok if it advanced the discussion, but it doesn’t. Have you considered asking why Pakistan sees a link between Siachen and Kargil rather than assuming there is no answer? Or why it sees a difference between the Shaksgam valley (ceded to China by Pakistan pending a final settlement of the Kashmir dispute) and the Saltoro ridge above Siachen?

If you frame your comment in the context of “you can’t answer this”, you won’t get an answer.

I could answer those comments, being one of the few people to have been to both sides of Siachen, with both the Indian and Pakistan armies, and listened to both sides of the argument. But do you want a discussion or a platform?

I welcome the comments that take the discussion forward, particularly from those who add links and new ideas. But here’s my problem. If I ask you to allow space for Pakistanis to feel comfortable posting on this blog, you accuse me of bias. If I were to give the Pakistan side of the argument to make sure both sides get heard, you will accuse me of bias.

So what do you want to do? We can have an intelligent discussion that allows all sides of the argument to be expressed. Or I can close posts every time the discussion strays off topic and gets repetitive.

Myra

Posted by Myra MacDonald | Report as abusive
 

Myra,
We try to answer the questions to the best of our knowledge and we don’t evade answers and we have accepted mistakes which India has made in the past.
Asking difficult questions is not akin to scaring people away. If you want a forum where Indians and Pakistanis co-exist then there will be difficult questions for both sides to be answered.
we are doing our bit to the best of our knowledge and expect the same from Pakistanis. It doesn’t matter who answers the questions. If you can send us links so that we may be able to find the answers ourselves then it will be better.
Also, I have tried and failed to understand the Pakistanis claim of the necessity to sponsor terrorism and use LeT and JeD as strategic investments to keep India in check. May be you can answer that too.
On second thoughts you can send us links which give us a nuanced understanding of the view points on both sides of the border. That will make you look impartial.
Anyways, I feel its useless to waste my time here. I would rather post something where Pakistan as a topic is not involved.

Myra, your questions on china and India relationship including the 1962 war and current economic and race to dominate Indian ocean doesn’t fit the title: Pakistan: Now or Never. Its bye from me.

@ Indian friends,
I really feel its useless to keep fighting here when the host itself is biased. You can’t change their viewpoint.
Something as simple as leave terrorism and come to the talking table doesn’t get appreciated.
I suggest all of us can move our energies to India: A Billion Aspirations, we will have varied topics, occassionally seasoned with Pakistan. Let others say and do what they want, we will do what is right. May be I will check this forum once in a while but you would like to participate in building our nation rather than care about smear campaigns elsewhere. Will see you in India specific forums, I don’t want to be hyphenated with Pakistan wherever I go.

Posted by Aman | Report as abusive
 

Myra,

You should write a disclaimer on your blog that you’ll be taking sides when Pakistanis are either unable or unwilling to make a cogent argument that will move the debate forward.

Posted by Nikhil | Report as abusive
 

Myra

“But do you want a discussion or a platform?”

—Set the ball rolling, we’re game. Set the platform for a perspective discussion & play the role of a catalyst, sort of umpire.

Posted by anup | Report as abusive
 

Many killed as suicide bomber targets police offices in Lahore (Times, UK, 29/05/2009)

The cycle keeps going.

Posted by bulletfish | Report as abusive
 

I am an Indian and a regular reader of blogs on this website. This is the first time I have seen authors talking for one side of the argument. Myra always (before this article too) sounded like taking side of Pakistan, but this time she has said it herself. I hope she realizes her mistake and take corrective actions. So that she do not scare away good Indian bloggers from her articles.

Posted by Pravin | Report as abusive
 

Seeking a civil, intelligent discussion with space for all sides of an argument is not bias. Those of you who see it as such are indeed on the wrong forum.

Nikhil, your suggestion is a good one, but you will see from the comment above how it is open to misinterpretation.

Since this discussion is now well off topic and does not apear to be leading anywhere, I am closing the comments on this post.

Myra

Posted by Myra MacDonald | Report as abusive
 
  •