India, Pakistan and the rise of China

May 25, 2009

India has been fretting for months that it could be pushed into the background by the United States’ economic dependence on China and by the renewed focus on Pakistan by President Barack Obama’s administration.  That anxiety appears to have increased lately – perhaps because the end of the country’s lengthy election campaign has opened up space to think more about the external environment — and is focusing on China.

In an interview with the Hindustan Times, Indian Air Chief Marshal Fali Homi Major said China posed a greater threat than Pakistan.  “China is a totally different ballgame compared to Pakistan,” he was quoted as saying. “We know very little about the actual capabilities of China, their combat edge or how professional their military is … they are certainly a greater threat.”

The Mint newspaper followed up with a editorial calling China “perhaps the gravest external threat” to India’s security. “That India is in an unstable neighbourhood is clearer than ever this summer,” it said. “But troubles from Pakistan, Sri Lanka or Nepal pale when compared with China.”

The increased anxiety has been driven by the end of the war in Sri Lanka, where the government’s victory was attributed partly to a supply of Chinese weapons, and where China has been building a new port on the island’s southern coast.

“This is part of a broad move by China into the Indian Ocean, which India has traditionally considered its sphere of influence,” said British newspaper The Times. Chinese engineers are building another port at Gwadar in Pakistan; roads are being cut or improved through Burma to help trade routes between Yunnan province in China and the Indian Ocean; ties are being improved with island nations such as the Seychelles; surveillance stations are being sited or upgraded on Burmese islands.”

But even without the Sri Lankan trigger, Indian analysts have suggested that India may no longer enjoy the favoured position that developed under former president George W. Bush, when Washington forged close ties with Delhi, in part as a counterweight to China.  Facing the twin challenges of financial crisis and a military stalemate in Afghanistan, the Obama administration is dependent on India’s two main rivals — China to pay for American debt and Pakistan to help it defeat the Taliban.

“The crux of the matter lies in the US’s relationship with China,” retired Indian diplomat M.K. Bhadrakumar wrote in the Asia Times. “At first glance, it may appear there is hardly any ellipsis between George W Bush’s policy of engaging China in ‘constructive, candid and cooperative’ ties and Obama’s search for a ‘positive, cooperative and comprehensive’ US-China partnership. But the reality is that the US today has a much greater need of strategic engagement with China and arguably to ‘upgrade’ the partnership in the direction of an elevated dialogue on global political issues.”

“To be sure, China’s global influence has increased and a full-blown US-China strategic partnership – as evident from the mere talk of an exclusive ‘G-2′ matrix – will figure on the radars of countries such as India (or Japan) as a high probability if not an inevitability. The Obama administration will have to work hard to reassure India that it is not being relegated to a subordinate status.”

India’s loss does not automatically mean Pakistan’s gain.

Pakistan has traditionally regarded China as its most reliable ally. In the past, Sino-Indian rivalry has helped it to win military supplies from China along with financial and diplomatic support. But rivalry between its two giant neighbours has not necessarily always played in its favour. India developed nuclear weapons to counter China’s nuclear capability.  Pakistan, according to the Pakistan Army’s official website, saw this as “coercive diplomacy” targetting not China, but Pakistan, and began its own nuclear weapons programme after India carried out its first nuclear test in 1974.

Nor did Pakistan necessarily gain from India’s defeat by China in a border war in 1962, which left India with an enduring anxiety about its long, unmarked borders. When it feared Pakistan was planning to take control of the mountains beyond Kashmir — an area so remote that it had never been demarcated — India sent troops to occupy the heights above the Siachen glacier in 1984. Although India had been burned by what it saw as Chinese encroachment in its border areas before the 1962 war, its actions on Siachen were directed against Pakistan. (Twenty-five years later, the Indian and Pakistan armies are still deployed on the heights above Siachen, with India commanding the higher positions.)

Nor does Pakistan automatically gain from ever-closer ties between the United States and China.

According to this McClatchy report, the Obama administration has appealed to China to provide training and even military equipment to help Pakistanis counter the growing militant threat. “The proposal is part of a broad push by Washington to enlist key allies of Pakistan in an effort to persuade Islamabad to step up its efforts against militants while supporting the fragile civilian government and its tottering economy.” it says. Richard Holbrooke, the administration’s special representative for Pakistan and Afghanistan, had visited China and Saudi Arabia, another ally, in recent weeks as part of the effort, it said.

In the past, Pakistan prided itself as a go-between, facilitating the Cold War thaw in relations between the United States and communist China in the early 1970s.  That may seem like a long time ago, but in a region with a fierce attachment to history, is Pakistan really ready to have Washington and Beijing talk over its head about what is best for it?

(Photos: President Obama meets President Hu in London; and Indian soldiers in Siachen)

Comments

can some one please explain me,
what does it exactly mean by a “country being SuperPower” (or becoming one)??

Posted by Foolsparadise | Report as abusive
 

There is nothing new about the doubt on China’s future. Some (maybe many) people forcasted China would break to pieces 30, 50 or even 100 years ago, but after so many years and after so many events happened, China is still there, as a whole, and getting more prosperous.

I don’t see any benefit of leaping from communism to capaticsm, though it seems everybody is taking that opinion for granted. Comparing China with world’s most populous countries, like India, Indonisia, Russia, Pakistan, maybe Brazilia, you see how effective the Chinese government is in boosting the ecomony. These countries copied US’s political system and only ended as a mess. Obviously, India has been punished by the so-called democracy will continue to be punished until it finds some other way to go.

Capitalism leads to war as always, as you all see. Pakistan and India have fighted each other for 50 years. US fighted Panama, Capitalisted Ugoslavia; Israel has fighted Palestan for 50 years too. Sri Lanka had a civil war for decades, until China helped to realize peace.

US is good, because it’s rich, but no more than that. I don’t see any country so far has copied US’s system and has got rich after that.

Posted by SunnyZ | Report as abusive
 

Umair writes: “Riaz has nicely highlighted Pakistan’s assistance to the Sri Lankan government in its effort to root out the LTTE. ”

Will Pakistan take credit for the following too?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/80 68905.stm

If Pakistan and China had a strong contribution to ending the Tamil ethnic conflict by training and arming the SL military, I am sure that training included some of the brutality and ruthlessness that is making the UN ask questions.

 

China taught Pakistan how to use tanks effectively on your own citizens.

While using tanks, Pakistan acquired the skills to use F-16s on their own citizens and to make 2-3 mil people desperate refugees in their own country.

Pakistan taught these skills to Sri Lankan army.

But Pakistan didn’t teach Sri Lank how to digest billions of aid and still beg effectively every other day – I want more, my people want more or else ..!

Good grace! At least China will block the UN investigations.

Posted by Ramon - Sri Lanka | Report as abusive
 

It is a great pleasure to read this article, especially all the 54 comments. I have recently been traveling frequently between India and China. My observations have surprised myself. In India, people I met are so vividly remember the Sino-Indian War of 1960~1962, whereas people I met in China hardly remember this war happened. On my flights from China to Calcutta, and from Delhi to Shanghai, there were more Indian passengers (65~75%) than Chinese passengers (~20%).

Indian people are equally smart and hard working as Chinese people. Indian had its history glories too. Perhaps ……. Indian governments should focus all the energies and valuable resources on infrastructures (roads, airports, railways, housing, water systems, … etc) to elevate its economic productivity and government efficiency, instead of revelry with China and Pakistan. People have different views on communism vs. democracy. That is normal. The harsh historical reality is that, the world’s attentions always go to where economic prosperities are. When Indian GDP gets closer or surpass Chinese GDP, the world attentions and admires would automatically shift to India. This has happened to England, Germany, Japan, Hong Kong/Taiwan/Singapore/Korean, Ireland, Brazil, Russia, and Turkey.

Posted by Traveler | Report as abusive
 

If there is ever any meanful investigation by UN, it should first investigate how US used chemical weapon in Vietnam and caused hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese to be disabled the whole life. Has US ever said a sorry for that?

US didn’t open China to the world. US blocked China from recovering the permanent membership of UN Security Council for 20 years and blocked China from joining GATT/WTO for 20 years. Chinese people won’t forget that.

Posted by SunnyZ | Report as abusive
 

When it comes to trading with China, I would caution those enthusiastic about such endeavours on the sub-continent to look across the pond at China’s re-colonization of Africa. This is the future that China has in store for many of its so-called trading partners.

The Chinese record is hardly inspiring. And those getting duped into co-operation with China because of their insecurities vis-a-vis India will suffer for it. In the long run it would been far better to cement ties on the sub-continent which could lead to a peace dividend and EU style integration (with all the attendant economic and political dividends).

Posted by Keith | Report as abusive
 

“Chinese people won’t forget that.”
-posted by SunnyZ

If the CCP says so, they will. 2 trillion in trade reserves yet still considered “developing”. Who’s fooling Hu here?

Posted by Patrick | Report as abusive
 

As far as the Air Chief Marshal’s comments. When it comes to the Air domain they are entirely accurate. Pakistan’s air force is no longer a threat to India. And that has been admitted by the Pakistanis themselves. China on the other hand is rapidly building its air force and naval air forces. For any air force chief in the region this would be a concern. For one from a country that has a history of conflict with China surely this would lead to severe paranoia.

Posted by Keith | Report as abusive
 

Last point. The China-India tensions are in large part because of all the border disputes and China’s militarization of its western regions. Once a border pact can be worked out (and China drops its claims to AP) we could see a significant reduction in tensions.

The economic competition will continue abated, however.

Posted by Keith | Report as abusive
 

2 trillion in trade reserves yet still considered “developing”. Who’s fooling Hu here?

- Posted by Patrick

Nobody is fooling somebody else here. China economy has been developing 8% – 13% each year in all the last 30 years. This trend will continue for another 30 or 50 years until the Chinese economy is somewhere near US + EU. Who can say China is not a developing country?

–China’s re-colonization of Africa.

Come on. China doesn’t catch African blacks and sell them as slaves. China doesn’t send army to Africa to kill all the people there like American did to native Indians.

–Once a border pact can be worked out (and China drops its claims to AP) we could see a significant reduction in tensions.

You dream, you fear.

Posted by SunnyZ | Report as abusive
 

SunnyZ

— What’s the ratio of the Have’s & Have-not’s in Communist China ? — 80 – 20? & to which region is prosperity limited? How long could they suppress a billion humans?
— How many political capital punishments take place on trivial charges each yr.? — 2000 – 3000?
— Will Tiannemen square be suppressed forever? Will religious aspirations be suppressed forever? how long will Tibet & Xinjiag be held? How long will they be able to sustain ‘Mao’ as God?
— Will the ‘Law’ never catch-up with all these negativism?

Posted by anup | Report as abusive
 

Sunnyz
“You dream, you fear.”
—No buddy – We’ve ruled the hearts & minds of China for thousands of years & we’ll re-establish our reins – this is what gives nightmares to the commies.

—At the @ which the US is printing $ & eventually will render their bonds worthless , then China will go Kaput – Bankrupt.

Posted by anup | Report as abusive
 

“—At the @ which the US is printing $ & eventually will render their bonds worthless , then China will go Kaput – Bankrupt.”
-posted by anup
—————————–

Or Americans quit buying Chinese goods, and buy Indian-made products. You may not believe me, but I have been on the “pro-India” campaign for some time now. You have the work force, democracy, and are finally building the proper infrastructure. India can equal the balance in Asia (and feed its population). The question is, does India want to?

Posted by Patrick | Report as abusive
 

Well, well, well. The comments pouring in from all parts of the world are more interesting read than the article itself.
I really feel an average Indian (an average chinese, paki, sri-lankan, iranian, US or UK citizen for that matter) will want to go for a war with any god-damn person on the planet.
Indians have truly changed a lot in the post economic reform era. economic stability and prosperity is all that a common man asks for. No doubt, when India almost went for a war with pakistan around 2001 after an attack on Indian parliament, the business community stood up and demanded we reconsider. And we did.
Entire world has made huge investments in India and so in china. It’s in the mutual interest of both the countries to be friends and help the poor (at least in their own countries). Multi billion dollar in defense budget, when millions of people die of hunger and poor health is no solution.
I believe Chinese folks are very hard working and aggressive businessmen. There is a lot both countries can learn from each other. As of Pakistan, the international migraine, my friends, you have problems aplenty at home. I know you may deny it, but inside you know it too. Why not sponsor reform and goodwill than terrorism?
I know you will blame me (India), and I will blame you (Pakistan). Some will blame china and the game will continue. I just feel in all this blame game, we forget that we are humans and the only thing that stands a looser is humanity.

I wish Pakistan manages to stabilize it’s taliban problem. I wish Sri lanka manages to establish peace at home. I wish India sees a reduction and gradual wipe out of terrorism. I wish Chinese people do better and bring prosperity (and freedom) to it’s people. I wish all of us realize, hatred is not the way to go. Live and let live.

Wishful thinking. huh..!!!!

Posted by Rahul Sinha- India | Report as abusive
 

- We’ve ruled the hearts & minds of China for thousands of years.

Look at what this naive Indian is thinking about! Gosh, how successful the Indian media purged this guy’s brain.

—US is printing $ & eventually will render their bonds worthless , then China will go Bankrupt.

If so, US will go bankrupt first, while it doesn’t really matter to China since it’s only a small part of the whole wealth.

Posted by SunnyZ | Report as abusive
 

Raul, you are so right, and make a great point — Entire world has made huge investments in India and so in china. It’s in the mutual interest of both the countries to be friends and help the poor (at least in their own countries). Multi billion dollar in defense budget, when millions of people die of hunger and poor health is no solution.

I am an US citizen currently on business assignment station in Shanghai, China. I had multiple business visits to India in 2008 and 2009. I cannot agree with you more that, there is a lot both countries (India, China) can learn from each other.

Here are my early comments –

It is a great pleasure to read this article, especially all the 54 comments. I have recently been traveling frequently between India and China. My observations have surprised myself. In India, people I met are so vividly remember the Sino-Indian War of 1960~1962, whereas people I met in China hardly remember this war happened. On my flights from China to Calcutta, and from Delhi to Shanghai, there were more Indian passengers (65~75%) than Chinese passengers (~20%).
Indian people are equally smart and hard working as Chinese people. Indian had its history glories too. Perhaps ……. Indian governments should focus all the energies and valuable resources on infrastructures (roads, airports, railways, housing, water systems, … etc) to elevate its economic productivity and government efficiency, instead of rivalry with China and Pakistan. People have different views on communism vs. democracy. That is normal. The harsh historical reality is that, the world’s attentions always go to where economic prosperities are. When Indian GDP gets closer or surpass Chinese GDP, the world attentions and admires would automatically shift to India. This has happened to England, Germany, Japan, Hong Kong/Taiwan/Singapore/Korean, Ireland, Brazil, Russia, and Turkey.

Posted by Traveler | Report as abusive
 

Patrick writes: “Americans quit buying Chinese goods, and buy Indian-made products. You may not believe me, but I have been on the “pro-India” campaign for some time now. You have the work force, democracy, and are finally building the proper infrastructure. India can equal the balance in Asia (and feed its population). The question is, does India want to?”

American business is so reliant on Chinese manufacturing that there is no way they can boycott Chinese goods. There is no way one can beat the Chinese price and productivity. Businessmen do not care for politics or principles. At the end of each quarter they want profits to rise higher than before and their market share increase. So long as that goal is attained, they do not care if people are suffocating or dying to meet their demands.

The US should start following consistent principle in geo-politics and business in the future. They should make it a requirement that businesses cannot deal with dictatorships and autocracies, no matter what kind of problem they’d face domestically. Had they followed this principle, they wouldn’t have had to follow the “my enemy’s enemy is my friend,” “He may be a SOB, but he is our SOB,” type policies. That is what led to the Americans cozying up to the Chinese and their overt and covert support to criminal states around the world.

The end result is OBL, Al Qaeda, Communist China as a super power, nuclear powered Iran, Pakistan, North Korea and many civil wars in Africa and so on. The US is not alone in this. US and the Western European powers are responsible for today’s chaos.

I’d like India to shut up and just work humbly in order to tough it out through these troubled times. This may take a decade or two to come out of. As an Indian, I want India not to make the mistakes others have made and work towards the well being of its people, even if money is short and business prospects around the globe do not look promising. Let the Chinese build networks and tunnels everywhere. What goes up, comes down some time. And Chinese do not have what it takes to sustain themselves as a likable and benevolent super power. They are going to be viewed just like the erstwhile USSR. So there will be another cold war. I want India to stay out of it and be quiet.

 

@My observations have surprised myself. In India, people I met are so vividly remember the Sino-Indian War of 1960~1962, whereas people I met in China hardly remember this war happened.
– Posted by Traveler

Tarveler: I will agree your view. But did you figure out why. It is not the natural tendency of the Chinese since if yuo talk to them about Japan, they will spit hatred and also on Taiwan, each every chinese knows what the issue is–not saying they are right about it. So India suffered in 1962 war by losing a large chunk of land and the war happned in the backdrop of “five principals of Indo-Chinese friendship” termed “Panchsheel”. Indians view this as backstabbing and that has led to chinese in general being seen that way. Here is an example: My chinese colleague at new job asked me “are you a Pakistani?”. I smiled and counterquestioned “Are you a Japanese?”. She said “NO, NO. I hate them”. I said “I d do not hate Pakistanis, but I am not one”. A japanese does not respond this way. So it all depends who suffered.

@Indian governments should focus all the energies and valuable resources on infrastructures (roads, airports, railways, housing, water systems, … etc) to elevate its economic productivity and government efficiency, instead of revelry with China and Pakistan.
-India is not focusing building rivalry, rather India is forced to deal with them.

All issues go at one time. When we talk of countries, there is nothing like India leaving something for later. India has made a lot of progress, despite numerous speed breakers. India has a long way to to go but it is on the right track, except that it needs to accelerate.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

@My observations have surprised myself. In India, people I met are so vividly remember the Sino-Indian War of 1960~1962, whereas people I met in China hardly remember this war happened.
– Posted by Traveler

Tarveler: I will agree with your view that more Indian remember 1962 vividly than chinese. But did you figure out why? It is not that Chinese have natural tendency of not remembering things or are unaware of international politics. Rather like Indians they love to discuss international politics. If you talk to them about Japan, they will appear more hostile towards Japanese and also on Taiwan, each every chinese knows what the issue is from Chinse POV. India suffered in 1962 war by losing a large chunk of land and the war happned in the backdrop of “five principals of Indo-Chinese friendship” termed “Panchsheel”. Indians view this as backstabbing and that has led to chinese in general being seen that way. Here is one real example: My new chinese colleague asked me “are you a Pakistani?”. I smiled and counterquestioned “Are you a Japanese?”. She said “NO, NO. I hate them”. I said “I do not hate Pakistanis, but I am not one”. So it all depends.

@Indian governments should focus all the energies and valuable resources on infrastructures (roads, airports, railways, housing, water systems, … etc) to elevate its economic productivity and government efficiency, instead of revelry with China and Pakistan.
-India is not focusing building rivalry, rather India is forced to deal with them.

All issues go at one time. When we talk of countries, there is nothing like India leaving something for later. India has made a lot of progress, despite numerous speed breakers. India has a long way to to go but it is on the right track, except that it needs to accelerate.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

SunnyZ,

“you see how effective the Chinese government is in boosting the ecomony. These countries copied US’s political system and only ended as a mess. Obviously, India has been punished by the so-called democracy will continue to be punished until it finds some other way to go”.

- India chose to be a democracy because it wants to and not because America was one. In fact, the Indian form of democracy is far different than the American version.
In the last few decades, India has demonstrated that in developing societies democracy and economic growth are compatible. The Chinese ‘top-down’ system cannot work in a diverse country like India.

Posted by Nikhil | Report as abusive
 

@I don’t see any benefit of leaping from communism to capaticsm, though it seems everybody is taking that opinion for granted. Comparing China with world’s most populous countries, like India, Indonisia, Russia, Pakistan, maybe Brazilia, you see how effective the Chinese government is in boosting the ecomony. These countries copied US’s political system and only ended as a mess. Obviously, India has been punished by the so-called democracy will continue to be punished until it finds some other way to go.
-BY SunnyZ

–It is not correct to call your country China as a “communist country”. It is labeled as a communist country, is surely not a democracy, is highly and increasingly capitalistic in nature, has dictatorship (by CCP), but surely “no power to people” (who cannot decide their leader and may be earning millions will have to say “cheese” whichever leader is dished out and is highly corrupt–especially in small towns (by chinese people admission). So this is a political system which is being modified from time to time, keeping in mind the discontent of the people but based on one common principal—to keep the power in the hands of CCP, whatever it takes. The problem is this follows no particular ideology and sooner or later the interest of the people and the CCP will not go hand-in-hand. With the increasing exposure to the Western culture in China and many Chinese abroad, who see the advantages of demcoracy, this in the long-term is inevitable.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

China has evolved as a closed society for a long time. Its people are submissive in nature and it is easy for autocracy to be imposed on them. A few hound dogs can keep massive packs of Chinese like sheep under control. They lack proper communication with the outside world and are limited by their reliance on the Mandarin language. It works inside their country, but outside of it, no one speaks Mandarin and that makes outside interaction very difficult. They have not colonized massively around the globe to make the others speak Mandarin. English has become a major international language due to centuries of colonialism. So the only way China can expand its power outside of its borders is follow the Soviet method – set up spy agencies, sabotage and derail political process in small countries, encourage dictatorships similar to Burma and North Korea, use poor countries as producers of raw material for Chinese consumption and so on. When people are crushed, they always hate the powers that do it to them. So Chinese are going to be hated by a large population in the world. Dominate they will, for sometime. But China’s natural traits will become its major limitation. It can do well inside its borders. But expanding power outside of its borders will need several other things that they do not have. If they try to stretch beyond their current capacity and get carried away, it will lead to their downfall. China should stop courting brutal regimes and dark nations and instead become modern in its approach. And they have to do this switch quickly. Causing trouble to gain control will not work, if China wants to be in the Super power club for a long time.

 

I am a ‘common man’ and will speak for the common man.

As I said in my last post, when we talk about “WAR”, nuclear-biological weapons supremacy, who-is-who is Asia, who gave Sri-Lanka weapons to kill (and take pride in that), where are we going? What are we? Did you say humans, the so called most ‘intelligent’ form of life on earth? BS.

This territoriality, self assumed supremacy, and our chauvinism just reminds me of the ‘street-dogs’. I always wonder why in the world they have such a huge ‘issue’ with ‘my-place’. We call ourselves an advanced species, but have we, really, moved ahead of the same mammalian instincts that we had millions of years ago?

I have two parents. Each had two. That makes a total of four. each had two and hence eight parents. If you go on like this, say for few 100 levels, and think the same about every human alive, GOSH, we will have more parents than the total no of life forms ever on the planet. How is that possible?
It is possible because all of us, some time in the past had a common parent. We are all brothers and sisters, born out of the same primates that emerged in Africa some million years ago. I don’t know how then, we are Americans, Russians, Chinese, Indian, Pakistani, Sri Lankan, Hindu, Muslim, Christian, and everything that can still divide.

I feel pity for our short sightedness. I see a wretched 80 year old in my streets, hungry, begging. I see a 6 month old dying of hunger because her parents can’t find work to feed her. I see a corrupt policeman, taking bribe from a drunk driver and letting him go. And then I see the nuclear bombs. I see ‘big people’ talking about billion dollar deal with Israel for a radar technology to counter the ‘missile’ threat. I hear about Taliban blowing up a suicide bomber in Islamabad and killing scores of innocent people. I hear about millions of people in Pakistan displaced due to war in SWAT. I see Tamil tigers blowing up innocent Sri-Lankan’s. I see dead bodies of tamils, shattered in the war to uncountable pieces. I see hungry, sick, weak people. And I feel WOW..!!! We are humans.

I love Chinese food (more than half of India does). Chinese love Taj-mahal. Indians listen to urdu songs and fall in love. Pakistanis love Bollywood (and Shahrukh-Khan). Indians wear Levi’s jeans. Americans use Indian software. A common man loves peace, food for their children and a happy life.

And then, again. India should be ready for Chinese bombs. Pakistan should have Nukes to counter India. Sri-Lanka needs Chines arms.

Dogs, all of us. Just plain simple street dogs.

I just Love this world…!!!!

Posted by Rahul Sinha | Report as abusive
 

SunnyZ

—Duh!

Posted by anup | Report as abusive
 

This is very important i.e our Govt & politection understan the need of our country.They provided good support to our people, who can dominte the world in all the field.Our GOVT should take some hard decission, which will hepl every body, Because we all r INDIAN!

 

The world is moving towards WW3 as we speak God Help us all

 

Pakistan has always tried to impersonate India, after the N-Deal with USA by India, Pakistan immediately started getting a pact signed up with Chinese Authorities.

China indeed is a bigger threat to all Asian Countries, and its main target, is, was and will be India, and now Pakistan is with China so the effect will be more ….

The Kashmir issue has been pending since past 60 Years, I wonder why and what for India is waiting for !!! Lets take an example, LTTE occupied Sri Lankan territories, and the war between the Lankan Govt. was on for 25 years, but when Lankan Govt. decided to take strict actions they demolished the LTTE Factor from Lanka,

Why India is not taking strict actions against Pakistan when it comes to Kashmir, that Land belongs to India and we should retain it, recent attacks in India has proved that Pakistan is still trying to bring instability in our land.

And now Pakistan is clearly diverting the issue trying to prove the US and China that they are in more threat than Indian by the militants, if we analyze closely Talibani’s and other militant agencies are funded and belong to Pakistan, they are their step military forces, wherein under the name of religion they perform their illegal actions …..

Is India ever going to use its missiles or are they only for display on Independence Day and Republic Day.

China is much more organized, but by helping the Pakistani’s they are digging their own grave, USA by funding Pakistani’s are increasing more burden on their economy, instead they should fund the Companies which are going bankrupt in their own country.

India and majorly all the politicians now should stop fighting internally and should think and take strict actions against all the internal and external threats against those who are against India.

A last example to explain ” When WTC was destroyed in USA, USA didnt asked other nations or UN or they didn’t filed a case against Laden, but instead they launched a straight attack …. so around 5000 people died in WTC, and a war was declared against Laden, and what India is doing for past 60 years, many have died and many are dieing and what we do is file case, talk to enemies , talk to UN , prepare questionnaire, prepare DNA reports !!!!

Posted by Sagar | Report as abusive
 

Yes, US is always like a “cat on the wall”. They jump based on the Situation. I think India can start back good relationship with Russia, Iran and latin American Countries. US may be dependant on china for buying their debt but they will be very well aware that china is increasing its Influence in the Latin Ameican Countries.
If you ask, US is the greatest threat to us all

Posted by Arun | Report as abusive
 

Wade,

Please read something more than just the Chinese Politburo agenda before writing about India and Dalai Lama.

Posted by Nikhil | Report as abusive
 

@Dogs, all of us. Just plain simple street dogs.
I just Love this world…!!!!
- Posted by Rahul Sinha

Rahul Sinha: I protest. What did dogs do earn your wrath? For all I know dogs are loyal. you need to come up with another one!!!!!

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

@Mauryan,

You are completely right, China’s upper limit is actually limited by the minds of its people and its lack of democracy.

I have worked with Chinese immigrant professionals and they are almost shell-shocked by how westerners question everything, everyday. These guys are hard workers, but will not question anything and will keep their head down working and even follow wrong orders if you tell them, that is a part of their mind control programming, to submit.

They were mortified, when I would question my boss during meetings and asked if I was afraid of being fired, I said no, everybody’s opinion is important, that is what makes us strong.

This explains the root cause why the Chinese are afraid of the Buddhist, the Buddhist represent the free-ing of the mind, freedom to explore new states of conciousness. The Chinese Junta believe that their society will come apart if people being to think for themselves, as they do in Western countries and to a large extent, India.

The Chinese government is very protective of their rigid control over the minds of its citizens and will goto any length to stop outside influences.

This will be their undoing, I have seen it for myself, as a person’s mind becomes free, they don’t blindly follow orders, they become more creative and much happier.

If only China knew, they are killing the happiness of their citizens and spiritually enslaving them. A spritually enslaved person will be void of creation and imagination and will never achieve their full potential.

Is it any wonder why everybody wants to always goto Western countries and live a better way of life?

India in that respect, has not even revved up its diesel engine, when it does, freedom of spirit, coupled with freedom of mind, coupled with Technology, India is poised to surpass China as a superpower and will one day even pass the U.S.

Historically speaking, this is the sole reason why India is always kept “contained” by the Americans helping Pakistan all the time. Time will tell, if Obama is the same mind slave as previous presidents.

Posted by G lobal W atcher | Report as abusive
 

you need to come up with another one!!!!!
-Posted by Rajeev.

Well, I may come with 1000, but still it won’t help the cause.

Posted by Rahul Sinha | Report as abusive
 

Rahul Sinha
“I just Love this world…!!!!”

— Welcome on Planet Earth! ofcourse you have the right to leave it at will or bring about a transformation.

Posted by anup | Report as abusive
 

Rahul Sinha:

Just was thinking that at least we do not extend human misery to the dogs or other animals–they have their own problems to be solved in much shorter life. That’s all.

Myra:
@That may seem like a long time ago, but in a region with a fierce attachment to history, is Pakistan really ready to have Washington and Beijing talk over its head about what is best for it?”

-The question is apt if there is an option for Pakistan. Is there any option?-NO. We know that Pakistan has to run to either one these countries? So I do not think so, especially when China says that will be divine order. Pakistan’s future will continue to be decided by foreign powers through different mechanisms. But I do not understand what is meant by ‘fierce attachment to history—any more fierce than let us say US or UK. Oh yes, both change the normal course of histories of the countries where they step on to.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

Rajeev:
“Pakistan’s future will continue to be decided by foreign powers through different mechanisms.”

-Despite many doubts being raised about Pakistan’s future, there are important developments taking place in Pakistan. Ordinary Pakistanis will gradually become masters of their own destiny, and they forced a former General and President out of office last year and fought their way in the streets for two consecutive years to restore an independent judiciary. With more than two dozend independent channels and a vibrant media and vocal civil society change will come gradually. I see in the future outside powers will have less and less leverage on Pakistan. Economic stability is one thing Pakistan needs surely, and you can see Pakistan is carrying out a full fledge war against terrorists at one hand and facing and dealing with terror attacks on the other hand. Still warnings of Pakistan imploding soon have been proved wrong.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

http://www.ispr.gov.pk/front/main.asp?o= t-press_release&id=672
No 165/2009-ISPR Dated: May 28, 2009

Lahore – May 28, 2009:

PAKISTAN WILL NOT BE TERRORIZED

The Chief of Army Staff (COAS), General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani today visited training area at Lahore where he met the troops busy in rigorous military training. He appreciated the operational preparedness and training standards of the troops. COAS was briefed in detail by the field commanders on training matters.

COAS also addressed the garrison officers. During his address, COAS condemned yesterday’s suicide attack in Lahore where besides police, 5 x defence personnel including a Lieutenant Colonel also embraced Shahadat. COAS said that Pakistan will not be terrorized; we will Inshallah succeed.

COAS reiterated Pakistan Army’s firm resolve to defeat the destabilizing forces that are out to harm the country. He appreciated the morale, determination and professionalism of the troops who are fighting terrorism and extremism in Swat and else where in the country. He lauded the sacrifices being made by Pakistan Army troops in Swat during Operation Rah-e-Raast, where todate over 90 soldiers have embraced Shahadat and 279 are injured.

Lieutenant General Ijaz Ahmed Bakhshi, Corps Commander accompanied the COAS during the visit.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

@Despite many doubts being raised about Pakistan’s future, there are important developments taking place in Pakistan.
- Posted by Umair

“Economic stability is one thing Pakistan needs surely”
- Posted by Umair

–yes and that will help in self reliance and no arm twisting, but unless Pak is democratic even a rich Pakistan, but ruled by a dictator, will be arm twisted so there is no other way than to continue in the direction of democracy, and this does not happen suddenly. Leaders do not sprout in vacuum. A factor that is completely absent is a good relation between India-Pak. This will help a lot in the economic and political stability of the Pak (and India). A reorientation of certain policies will be needed and will automatically happen as the pol system changes to stable democracy with civilian govt calling the shots.

@Pakistan is carrying out a full fledge war against terrorists at one hand and facing and dealing with terror attacks on the other hand. Still warnings of Pakistan imploding soon have been proved wrong.
–Not to discredit, but Pak right now is fighting for its own sake. Some people think that terrorism is because of US presence—actually it has been dormant and is just showing up now. Hypothetically if US leaves and deriving peace through negotitations is not workable. Let us see how this all goes since Taliban have proven to be invincible so far. Hope this death and destruction of civilans helps defeating them. From Indian POV the terrorists that hit India have also to be be taken care of. This is more of a political decision than anything else. India-Pak bilateral talks have to and will resume sooner or later and on the top of the agenda has to be tacking the terrorists. Kashmir solution without sincerely eliminating terrorists is not a feasible option. This anyway is a positive step for Pak’s own interest. Terrorism as a policy (or other such strategic tools) may work in the short run but in the long run start becoming counterproductive and self-destructive. A case in point is Taliban.

The terrorists attacks will happen in short run but avoiding that through negotiating with terrorist will cause irreversible damage.

I am not into forcasting the future of Pakistan or its collapse but one thing is sure that all the events were not taking Pakistan any forward.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

Myra that was pretty pathetic what you did to the “Pakistan, from Swat to Baluchistan via Waziristan” thread below. You shut the thread down because you were being accused of bias and didn’t want more comments to show up about you. I was actually about to defend you in that everyone is bias and entitled to a bias personal opinion. But you should not close a thread simply because it’s not going your way, its OUR resource, and if your not comfortable with that go work for Fox.

Posted by brian | Report as abusive
 

Umair says:

“Economic stability is one thing Pakistan needs surely, and you can see Pakistan is carrying out a full fledge war against terrorists at one hand and facing and dealing with terror attacks on the other hand. Still warnings of Pakistan imploding soon have been proved wrong.”

Actually, that is incorrect, it is the western flank, undertrained soldiers who are taking on the Taliban, the real Army is always stationed on the Eastern Flank of Pakistan, ready to do a “COLD START” Strike first war on India.

It is too early to tell if Pakistan is going to implode. The fact of the matter is, is that the Army is not trained to fight in the cities and your civilian police forces are corrupt, grossly underpaid, very unco-ordinated, undertrained, extremely unarmed and take bribes from anybody for looking the other way. My respects to those who are not like that and have died at the hands of militants. Is it any wonder why Mumbai’s are planned in open broad daylight in Pakistan and nobody stops these Militant criminals?

Internally, there are too many security cracks within Pakistan because its security focus has been so outward, to show its stance against India.

The police forces, even in Islamabad or Rawalpindi are incapable of taking on militants. The real civil war in Pakistan will start when the Taliban or which ever home grown proxy army you have, begins to challenge the Police in the cities. The police are incapable at this point, to handle a terrorist crisis and the military does not have the ability to take the fight to the cities and do urban warfare, without using Tanks and F-16′s, in other words, they are used to aggressing India in a conventional war and either do not know or unwilling to get their hands dirty. That is the true reason why Pakistan’s security is at risk and why average Pakistani’s know that the tsunami of militantism and civil war are on the horizon.

It would be wise for Pakistan to give more training to their police forces to wage an Army like urban warfare on Militants with some military training, or the Army has to get off their Tanks and F-16s in Kashmir and take a bus over to Islamabad and make a difference there and in SWAT.

Civil disorder is around the corner, if Pakistan is unwilling to shed its soldiers from the eastern side.

In short, the Army and the Police are both not prepared to properly deal with the tsunami of Militantism. The root cause is Pakistan’s obession with maintaining a standoff position with India. All that time, Pakistan has forgot its own internal security and let it rot.

Pakistan need not worry, India does not want to invade Pakistan for any reason, it would be wise to redeploy most of its army away from India.

If Pakistan does that, India will return in kind and that will be the first step to Kashmir mending itself.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive
 

Brian
“Myra that was pretty pathetic what you did to the “Pakistan, from Swat to Baluchistan via Waziristan” thread below.”

-Brian, I think what Myra did was terrific, shut down all pathetic comments. The level of debate on this reuters blog continues to sink lower and lower as individuals are indulging into personal attacks against each other and towards the author too. And Myra has so far done a perfect job in moderating comments and closing when required at the same time staying unbiased.

What is required from all of us is to refrain from personal attacks, specially against the author, and engage each other in meaningful, constructive debate and stick to the topic. Also, share links and back up our views/opinions with relevant links/references where possible.

Now if this seems to be so difficult for anyone, and they want to leave this blog for good, most welcome. No one will miss you or cry for. Internet is information superhighway but that doesnt mean morality should sink so low, freedom of expression is being abused here. Its about time comments are moderated and closed when they sink down to a certain low.

Most people who are annoyed and feel biased are those that thought this is a Pakistan bashing forum. Sad, it isnt. This blog is about Pakistan, the country, its problems, its beauty, its people, its hope, everything.
Important it is to understand what is the purpose of this forum.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Global watcher:
” the real Army is always stationed on the Eastern Flank of Pakistan, ready to do a “COLD START” Strike first war on India. ”

-I see your lack of understanding here, you are cmpletely unaware. The ‘cold start’ doctrine have been evolved by the Indian Army. Pakistan Army in return adopts a doctrine of limited ‘offensive defense’. Here is the difference between the two, Indian Army(cold start doctrine) implies thrusting Pakistan from 6 to 8 fronts through mechanized IBGs(Integrated Battle groups) smaller units backed by cover from Indian Air Force in case of any war. While Pakistan Army (offensive defense) implies launching a preemptive strike deep into Indian territory in and capture maximum territory and hold on to it as a bargaining chip in any ceasefire post war negotiations.

“It is too early to tell if Pakistan is going to implode. The fact of the matter is, is that the Army is not trained to fight in the cities ”

-Early or late, Pakistan’s implosion is completely out of question. A 170 million strong nation under a democratic dispensation and fully backed by Armed Forces is prepared to deal with every challenge. The US in engaged in different counter insurgency training programs at higher advisory levels and are training the FC(Frontier Corps) for CI operations. Pakistan-NATO ties have expanded significantly, just last month Army chief met with NATO secretary general, Pakistan Army is also engaged in training with NATO
http://www.nato.int/cps/en/SID-D06A8151- F79D7769/natolive/news_55016.htm?selecte dLocale=en

Pakistan Army has been using heavy handed tactics so far in Swat but definitely its CI capability is going to develop further in the future with the current training programs ongoing.

” your civilian police forces are corrupt, grossly underpaid, very unco-ordinated, undertrained, extremely unarmed and take bribes from anybody for looking the other way.”

-I live in Rawalpindi and daily drive to my office located in the red zone of Islamabad where all five star hotels, diplomatic enclave and government buildings are located. The City traffic Police in Rawalpindi and ITP(Islamabad Traffic Ploice) patrol and enforce traffic laws. Islamabad Police and Punjab Police in Rawalpindi are responsible for manitaining law and order. And I almost on a daily basis get to meet policemen who hitch hike with me on the road ( i always give lift to them when they wave), I get to speak with them, I know their morale is high. I know how they fight back despite the heavy odds they are up against. The Police and emergency services personnel are really super heroes in this situauion that despite the threat they fight back daily and save many lives. Yesterday the gun and bomb attack in Peshawar, the CCPO-senior police officer was filmed by camera crew responding to the attack, personally grabbing a gun and returning fire against the terrorist and commanding the operation himself on the ground.

While in Mumbai attacks, the Indian security services performance was dismal, the NSG Commandoes were stranded at Delhi airport for hours before they were flown into Mumbai to deal with the terrorists. The reason, the NSG didnt have their own aircraft. Than Indian special forces were criticized by israel the way they attacked the Chabbad jewish house where the Jewish Rabbi was killed. With in hours top ATC officer Hemant Karkare was killed along with others.

“Internally, there are too many security cracks within Pakistan because its security focus has been so outward, to show its stance against India.”

-Despite some security lapses, Pakistan is aware of the internal and external threats to national security. Apart from LEAs(Local law enforcement agencies) Pakistan has many agencies like the ANF(Anti Narcotics Force) responsible for guarding drug smuggling at the borders. ASF(Airport Security Force) guarding the airports, numerous investigative agencies under the interior ministry like the FIA(Federal Investigation agency) most of Pakistan’s paramilitary forces like the FC, Rangers etc are trained and commanded by Pakistan Army. All these forces are more than capable of taking on gangsters, criminal thugs, militants, terrorists, drug traffickers or any elements.

” That is the true reason why Pakistan’s security is at risk and why average Pakistani’s know that the tsunami of militantism and civil war are on the horizon.”

- Every terrorist attack makes the resolve of ordinary Pakistanis even strong, we are not afraid of civil war, entire nation backs the Army, all political parties back the military operations. Pakistan is united to fight back the terrorists and help those IDPs who are affected by military ops.

“Civil disorder is around the corner, if Pakistan is unwilling to shed its soldiers from the eastern side.”

-Year 2009 has been termed as the year of training by the Army chief, right now COAS visited Lahore yesterday where Army is engaged in rigorous traning exercises on the eastern border
http://www.pakistanarmy.gov.pk/awpreview  /homepage.aspx
You know very well now and have an idea how capable Pakistan is of maintaining internal stability and law and order so matters dont get out of hand and result in civil disorder. We are talking about Police forces fighting while even ordinary citizens collecting charity and releif supplies for IDPs. Every one is united.

Now I come to the most important part, last but not the least:
Pakistan Army counterinsurgency capability and urban warfare in Swat, Malakand.

There are basically two types of Urban warfare:
1. Military to military.
2.Guirella warfare
The Taliban are engaging Pakistan Army in guirella warfare in cities like Swat, Malakand. Here the technological advantage by Pak Army is nullified, while training and technique of the Army is more important in engaging with the Taliban. What my knowledge is,
1.In urban fighting cover fire is very important.
2.Movement of troops is to be well coordinated to avoid friendly fire.
3.Army has to work slowly and systematically, which is being done in Swat, Mingora etc.
4.Troops have to avoid in falling in traps.
5.Effective preparation and tactics are necessary.
6.Troops have to be properly supplied and briefed.
In short in a complex theater of war the line between success and failure is thin. The war game, strategic planning and setting goals are all important factors. I have no doubts in the professionalism of Pakistan, as one who lost friends in the Army fighting against terrorists I am proud of Pakistan Army and our brave security forces. The fact that Pakistan contributes highest number of soldeirs in keeping peace around the world as UN peacekeepers, I have no doubt about Pakistani security services to maintain law and order at home and keep the peace.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

@Most people who are annoyed and feel biased are those that thought this is a Pakistan bashing forum. Sad, it isnt. This blog is about Pakistan, the country, its problems, its beauty, its people, its hope, everything.
Important it is to understand what is the purpose of this forum.
- Posted by Umair

Umair:
Are you leaving your message in the end and generalizing. Not at all to attack Myra right now, but look Myra is being sympathetic to you since you are the only Pakistani who is frequenting this blog.

Most if not all bloggers know what this forum is about and to dicuss the beauty of pakistan depends upon thread, and there have not been much chances for the obvious reasons. This blog is about Pakistan as a country PLUS Pakistan’s neighbours and that’s where my interest lies. This is evident from the shared threads between India & Pakistan blog and then there are some threads shared by India/Pak/Chinese blogs. So the purpose of the forum is not talking about Pakistan only. Myra can correct me.

@@Most people who are annoyed and feel biased are those that thought this is a Pakistan bashing forum. Sad, it isnt.
-Come on Umair. There is no bashing forum anywhere and there is no Pakistani “bashing” going on here. It is both ways if it has been. “Bashing” is a very commonly but wrongly used word here. I have seen points been made and if there is something pakistani do not like, there is an option to counter it with a reason and URL. Yes the repitition, as Myra said, has been there but not any more than what I have seen from your posts, if you allow me to be specific. It is natural and we are not professional writers and if we are so emotional in India-pak Cricket, then it is understandable that this is serious matter.

And finally if you feel that this forum is about Pakistan, then where are all the Pakistanis? This is the forum where Pakistanis should tell the world what they think rather than coming here like a drone, whine and say “I am busy”. More non-Asians have participated than Pakistanis. Bashing bullying does not make a Pakistani run away, although Myra have used the word “bullying”. Take it as a complement.

I personally am not an expert on forcasting the collapse of a nation, yes some bloggers have done. But then responsible US leaders and generals and many Pakistani intellectuals also have said the same thing. So Indians are not saying anything novel.

I would like to make one very important comment and I can be fairly comfortable to say on behalf of most Indians. Targeting Pakistani leaders, Army and ISI or any relevent agency does not mean that it is against the people of Pakistan. Even saying Army means handful Pakistani Army people who make the decisions. I believe when you say anti-US, it means the politicians not the people.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

Yasir Hussain says:
May 29th, 2009 at 3:54 pm @Dr. Malek Towghi

How much america had paid for a war initiated by them and for them? surely not a small part of what we pakistanis have paid.

We are not so fool nation that “to get your cheques” we have compromised our security and even our future.

No, its not pakistan which is part of problem but its America. they started a war in afghanistan in 80’s in the name of jihad and it was american printing press who printed jihadi lectures for pakistani madrassas. its alright till 89 because USSR was a common enemy for both pakistan and US. but at the end of war, what they did is called “presslor amendment”. they trained 80,000 jihadi commandos and at the end imposed sanctions on us and left us alone for them. We had no option but to try to settle them. and for this we are accused of “links” with them. tell me how can we try to settle them without “links”. although Ronald Ragon once called them “forefathers”.

Again they repeated the thing, after capturing Afghanistan in 2002 they had to be concerned about them but again they left it and focus their attention on Iraq for WMD which were never discovered.

meanwhile india made it strong in Afghanistan and started to propagate anti pakistan sentiments over there.
Saqib Khan says:
May 29th, 2009 at 3:29 pm I wish that the Pakistan Government should have gone after the Taliban leadership in order to eliminate them rather then going after few hundred militants and insurgents in this very expensive military operation that would ruin Pakistan’s already hand to mouth economy. Over 2.5 million people of Swat have been made to flee their homes, agricultural land, and livelihood and made to live under the open skies in 40C temperature, horrendous conditions without sanitation, medical, water, electricity and without adequate food supplies.

President Asif Ali Zardari is obeying American administration orders and applying President Obama’s policies in Pakistan and this military operation was an American order that has to be obeyed to receive American 1.85 billion dollars. It should be remembered that USA is the richest world economy and the most technologically developed country in the world and has so far failed to defeat Al-Qaeda and Taliban in Afghanistan despite wasting over five trillion dollars on lost the war. It is a misconceived perception that Pakistan can defeat war of terrorism on its soil by bullets and bombs. President is misleading the nation and PPP has no idea what is doing or should to fight terrorism and sort out its domestic, economic, defense and diplomatic problems.

If it were happening in the USA, UK and other European countries, their interior ministers would have resigned long time ago for negligence, incompetence and inability to handle their jobs. Rehamn Malik, the interior minister is always telling Pakistanis Your country is in danger” as if he is not a Pakistani but a foreigner. This is the price that Pakistan will have to pay to ally itself with the West and for getting expensive American aid with long list of string attached.

It is about time that he is sacked from his post and Pakistanis are saved from more atrocities. This government is incapable of handling Pakistans internal and external problems and dragging the country into a big hole. In the West these terrorists are caught even before they blow themselves and innocent human beings; and are even caught when they are planning a terrorist act. Rehman Malik has so far failed to come up with any thing positive and even those arrested red handed in the terrorist activities are never heard off afterwards.

The recently displaced US, Gen McKiernan, has said many times that we will never win the “hearts and minds” of the Afghan people but we can win their support, though we will not do that through military operations alone. The struggle is not about killing insurgents. We have killed more insurgents than we can count over the past seven years and have moved no closer to victory by doing so. This struggle is about the Afghan population. Afghans must believe that their government will provide them greater security and opportunity for prosperity than the insurgency will. We are not naive; we know that military operations must continue and that some people must be killed — but under McKiernan a more holistic approach to winning the peace has been our focus. These are the “conventional” tactics he has been employing. To those who say we have moved too slowly, to those looking for the quick fix or fast score that will enable our forces to come home, I urge caution.

The Americans, British, Indians and Israelis are all involved in a devils conspiracy to fragmentize Pakistan, and the terrorists who so ever they are and from where ever they come from are beyond any shadow of a doubt are trained, armed, funded and logistically supported by the Pakistans enemies around its borders and from far away. The Americans are playing a very duplicitous game here: they want to control Pakistans Baluchistan for its strategic importance and also for its abundant natural resources. If President Asif Ali Zardari stays in power for more one year, American long held dream of controlling Central Asia would appear to be coming true. This inept Pakistani PPP government has no idea of what they are doing or should do to combat terrorism. This military operation will surely bankrupt already hand-to mouth Pakistan’s economy that has become so dependent on US hand outs.

Azad says: I will bring in (cut and paste) the Pakistanis’ opinions from DAWN blog, without my own viws. This way more Paks can be heard on this frum.

 

Dr. Malek Towghi says:
May 29th, 2009 at 12:25 pm I am afraid the Military-Mulla Complex of Pakistan has duped my country, the US, again. We did not know that while supposedly ‘pursuing’ 200 or 2000 Taliban militants, the military will dislocate more than 2,000,000 innocent Pashtuns for which we, Americans, will continue to be blamed. Meanwhile, we are being — and will be –asked — to pay additional sums to help these internal refugees.

These are the results of military ‘operations’,so far, in a single district, Swat. The whole Taliban-infected NWFP, FATA, and the Pashtun regions of Balochistan are yet to be dealt with. Only God and the ISI know the final extent and number of dislocated Pashtuns.

The disaster will be so great that we will be asked again to forget about Bin Ladin, Zawahiri and Mulla Umar. Our Pakistani ‘friends’ have already ‘convinced’ us to slow down, if not completely stop, the Drone operations … which had just begun to corner Alqaeda- Taliban operatives.

By the way, we do not know what new game the Pakistani military is playing with the Taliban leaders in the ‘battle fronts’; the international media are not allowed any access.

Meanwhile according to a well-thought scheme — and to warn the Sharif Brothers to ‘behave’, fanatics are being let loose to terrorize Punjab. The planned chaos will widen… and we will be asked to continue paying …. For what? Definitely not for capturing or destroying Bin Ladin & Co.

The rational way for us, the Americans, is to get out of the mess called Pakistan along with the remaining undelivered checks, take a deep breath and relax for awhile, while protecting Afghanistan with full force, and thinking of ways to deal with the Al-Qaedah other than depending on Islamabad and its military.

There are definitely other ways …. more effective and less expensive.

Malek Towghi, Michigan, USA.
Azad: another one from Pakistani diaspora, fromDAWN blog

 

Umair,

There was no “personal attack” on Myra. Though people heavily “criticized” her for not being neutral. There is a fine line my dear.

@”What is required from all of us is to refrain from personal attacks, specially against the author, and engage each other in meaningful, constructive debate and stick to the topic. Also, share links and back up our views/opinions with relevant links/references where possible.”

Good that your are talking sense. So when are you giving us the links/references of indian involvement in Balochistan and NWFP that you promised about a month before?

Posted by chirkut | Report as abusive
 

Myra,

I for one also think that you need to restore your neutrality.
I criticized PA for creating the IDP mess on your blog about IDP. You later on started defending PA.
Guess what i am not alone in criticizing
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn -content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/prov inces/07-Displaced-residents-return-to-d estroyed-Sultanwas-village-ha-06

“When Pakistan army drove the Taliban back from this small north-western village, it also destroyed much of everything else here.

F-16 fighter jets, military helicopters, tanks and artillery reduced houses, mosques and shops to rubble, strewn with children’s shoes, shattered TV sets and perfume bottles.”

Posted by chirkut | Report as abusive
 

Umair,

I have no problem with bias, as I stated before, it is the essential basis of personal opinion which cannot be bias.
I understand that some may have a problem with the responsibilities of a moderator being for or against an issue but as far as im concerned they are also entitled to their opinions and if they appear to favour one ideal over another I cant see how there’s anything abnormal or unfair about that.
Im more concerned with freedom of expression, which is apparently the cause of having a news-blog free to the public in the first place. It is obviously the responsibility of the moderators in this forum to maintain respectful, if passionate, debate on news issues, however I dont believe that line was even close to being crossed before the blog was shut down, and think its a disappointing abuse of moderating authority it that situation to do so after Myra entered the debate and drew criticism for her points of view.
We are all subject to criticism if we chose to enter an opinion into a debate and unless obvious lines of aggression and personal disrespect are crossed there is no need to close a string because your opinions are not popular.
All blogs stray off topic and clash on opinions, it doesn’t mean arguments cant be resolved and topics cant get back on track. Debate isn’t always constructive, but we still all come here to express our opinions and should be allowed to disagree with anyone who has been allowed to voice their own.

Posted by brian | Report as abusive
 

correction

“I have no problem with bias, as I stated before, it is the essential basis of personal opinion WHICH CANNOT BE BIAS.”
Which MUST be bias..

Posted by brian | Report as abusive
 

1) The conversation is going off topic. If it does not get back on topic, I shall close the post.

2) Whoever said this is our resource not yours got it wrong. It’s not a public platform to say whatever you like.

3) Free speech does not cover libel, which is what you are doing if you accuse a journalist of bias. I shall in future delete all such comments, except in the case of those of you who are willing to identify yourselves with full name and contact details. (Do however read my articles and book, in which I make every effort to seek all points of view, before making such an accusation.)

4) Seeking a civil discussion which remains on topic, and which allows all sides to express their point of view is not bias – it’s about balance, which is a requirement of my profession.

Now please get back on topic – this post is about the role of China.

Myra

Posted by Myra MacDonald | Report as abusive
 
  •