Pakistan: Now or Never?

Myra

—It’s virtually impossible to see thru the Chinese designs,& stupid not to beleive so,although that they are encircling India & gaining control or increasing their presence in the Indian Ocean is conceivable, not that they shall attack India from the sea but when they launch an offensive in the N.E. regions of India to occupy Arunachal , Sikkim etc. the only detrimental they face is that incase of a prolonged war, the Indian navy can cut off it’s supply route from the strait of Malacca & the gulf of eden – thus the Chinese naval bases in Burma & Srilanka for the former & gwadar for the latter.

“But the reality is that the US today has a much greater need of strategic engagement with China and arguably to ‘upgrade’ the partnership in the direction of an elevated dialogue on global political issues.”

—-Really! china has proxy ‘slapped’ the US twice on it’s face – courtesy N. Korea – The US under Obama stands to loose it’s credibility if it doesn’t gives a befitting reply to N.Korea for it’s nuclear tests – Japan is loosing faith in the US…others will follow suit..

Gradually India will find itself engulfed by Chinese strategic presence all around it.China already has a huge military and economic presence in arch-rival Pakistan with more inroads being dug into Nepal,Sri Lanka and Myanmar.China is also constructing a naval surveillance station in Seychelles.

Due to double standards of American Policies (which specially persue Jews policies), Pakistanis do not trust US, as past witness, US left Pakistan alone after using Pakistan against Soviet Union, however China is a trust-worthy friend of Pakistan and Pakistan must keep friendly relations with China at all cost…Also Pakistan must keep Nuclear Deterence and improve it as India is a grave threat to Pakistan. US torture policies are about to end and the world will witness that China will be the next super power and a global leader..

String of Pearls:
Meeting the challenge of china’s rising power across the asian littoral.

“The port facility at Gwadar, for example, is a win-win prospect for both China and Pakistan. The port at Karachi currently handles 90 percent of Pakistan’s sea-borne trade, but because of its proximity to India, it is extremely vulnerable to blockade. This happened during the India-Pakistan War of 1971 and was threatened again during the Kargil conflict of 1999.6 Gwadar, a small fishing village which Pakistan identified as a potential
port location in 1964 but lacked the means to develop, is 450 miles west of Karachi.7 A modern port at Gwadar would enhance Pakistan’s strategic depth along its coastline with respect to India. For China, the strategic value of Gwadar is its 240-mile distance from the Strait of Hormuz. China is facilitating development of Gwadar and paving the way for future access by funding a majority of the $1.2 billion project and providing the technical expertise of hundreds of engineers.8 Since construction began in 2002, China has invested four times more than Pakistan and contributed an additional $200 million
towards the building of a highway to connect Gwadar with Karachi. In August 2005, Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao visited Pakistan to commemorate completion of the first phase of the Gwadar project and the opening of the first 3 of 12 multiship berths.”

If Indian leaders have the foresight and strategic thinking, they would settle outstanding disputes with Pakistan and embark on a friendly relationship. Pakistan’s strategic importance will ensure there is no diplomatic isolation. Pakistan has sound ties with muslim world and Persian Gulf states including , Saudi Arabia, Iran, China and the United States. Historically Pakistan has played its role in establishing diplomatic ties between Beijing and Washington, Pakistan can again play its role in bridging the gap between Iran and US.
Also, notable is the fact that Iran has recently improved relations with Saudi Arabia and King Abdullah hosted President Ahmedinejad for talks in Riyadh.

Umair :Both China and Iran, along with Pakistan are India’s regional rivals in one way or the other. This doesnt necessarily mean a confrontation with India. But certainly the geo-strategic environment is evolving.

let me tell u and i m sure u would also know that iran definately doesn’t want india in a strategy tie up with US and has cordial realtionship with india even though india is quite close to israel which is their no 1 defance supplier.

US definately doesn’t want india to be close to iran and doesnt want india to be in agreement with iran over gas pipeline…but that’s in india’s interest and only issue there is the gas prices which are flexible and india can join the deal later with iran as it was actually an indian-iranian idea and pak joined later. iran is neutral to india and pak..as pak is been a US buddy and have had considerable violance against shias which is the majority in iran .

that’s true umair…iran is neutral to india and pak…
india is helping iran in upgrading the chabbar port..as that would give afghanistan an alternative route to bring the goods through zarand delaram highway built by BRO(india)….

Chinese are the smartest business people in the world, ruthless and demanding. Overseas Chinese have made Singapore, Malaysia and Taiwan what they are now. Chinese enterprise in business is proving itself in mainland China as well.

Instead of looking at them as rivals, it would be prudent for India to look at them as a senior friend and work with them to improve economic ties and co-operation. One should not try to be on the wrong side of an emerging super power.

China is surrounding India with strategic network of ports and keeping hostility in neighboring countries. This is to keep India engaged and kept relatively behind. This is how it is going to be for the next few decades.

What India should do is, not to engage in confrontation with China and engage in diplomacy with them. It is on India’s hands to build economic co-operation with the Chinese and work with them. India needs to stay out of the way of big powers until it has improved living standards, wealth and power. Even then it should never try to show off to others.

Economic inter-dependency is the way out of all conflicts and geo-political issues.

The countries which are lining up to become Chinese vassals in order to engage India for emotional reasons should realize that the Chinese are very different from the US. They are not a benevolent power. They will use your countries as factory floors for their use. You will work with them as their colonial subjects. That is the type of relationship Chinese expect from these “pearls.” Be careful and do not fall into that trap. Try to be independent if you do not want to turn into a “pearl.” Chinese have no accountability for anything that they do. So be careful. The Chinese will smile at you until you have eaten the candy that they give. After eating that, you belong to them. But it is your choice. India is surely on the receiving end due to Chinese emergence. But I am glad that India can stand up to them if the need arises.

India remains patient until Maoism time is up – & then deal accordingly to the emerging changed scenario -

I actually disagree with this entire story of “China being the next Superpower in the world/region”. reasons,

1> A country can become Superpower by acceptance not by shear creation of “pearl of strings”, China is totally unacceptable to European world/Americans (N) & Indians, which constitute a huge population on planet. most out of most, China would become one of the Powers (wealthy & dominating center of Art & Business that’s solve).

2> Chinese People doesn’t enjoy the rights which people of free civil society enjoys in most of the world (except few Islamic republics), a Superpower is suppose to project freedom (imagine Europeans/Americans/Indians following Communism)across the world, which China simply fails to understand.(banning blogs/internet sites/videos/TV programs/protests etc etc..)

3> Chinese Market is a market of Exporting goods (mainly to NA/EU) but if you look internally, Chinese banking system itself is unique and old fashioned where, govt holds a tight grip over money of its citizens, till recent past one can’t even buy a real estate in its own country rather had to rent from govt. do you think world will obey these values of next Superpower??

4> If you forgot U.S.S.R. and Cold War, then let me remind you again, Soviet was also use to be called a World Super Power(very similar to what China is being hailed as) and now Russia don’t even want to think of becoming a Superpower , my dear, Americans are not here to cut my lawns grass in backyard, that they will simply give the keys to world supremacy to China and go for a long vacation.

5> Lastly India being the China’s rival, If you have seen in recent past, even India-Pakistan who loves to go for a war anytime, are being hesitant of it, do you thing its wise enough to go on a war without a gain just for fun??? but yeah these two countries together can make a multipolar world and feed their huge populations in terms of energy and resources, I see them(India+China+Russia+Iran(probably)) becoming a kind of EU-union in coming years to counter NA/EU .. lets see

Due to the undeniable fact that China has now gained the super power status due to its economic and military muscle and the reality that USA’s economic downfall will inevitably lead it into a detente with China at less favorable terms, India’s future looks really bleak. China has almost completed the encirclement of India.

Thanks for all the comments so far and I have more questions:

@ the younger generation of Indians on this blog. Is the 1962 war still a burning issue, or does it seem too far in the past to be relevant?

@ Indians on this blog. Isn’t the problem with the rising trade with China that India is mostly exporting raw materials while importing manufactured goods from China? (if someone has time to give me the link to the latest trade figures, I’d be grateful – if not I’ll dig them out myself)

@ Pakistanis on this blog. There have been suggestions lately that China has begun to let Pakistan down. Is that correct, or a common perception?

@ Everyone. Do you see the creation of an eventual Asian block (made up of a variety of combinations of alliances including India/Pakistan/Iran/China/Russia/SCO members) that leaves little or no room for the United States or Europe?

Myra

Dr. Ifthikar writes: “India’s future looks really bleak. China has almost completed the encirclement of India.”

Well sir, I wouldn’t write India off that quickly. China definitely is one among the world’s super powers (US, Russia, and EU). And all of them will look at India as a huge market as well as a service and manufacturing base. many European and American car companies have plants all over India. So India definitely will not be in that league of those super powers, but it will be comfortable. Sri Lanka will never mess with India. The last time they did, Tamil insurgency took close to 26 years to snuff out. Before that they were pretty much advanced. So they’d like to prosper along with India. Whether they like Indians or not is immaterial. It is not as terrible as that between India and Pakistan currently. A lot is going to depend upon where Pakistan is headed. If your military finishes off the Taliban, then your country must make certain that it does not go back on that path again. And China has carefully avoided getting involved in Pakistan’s issues. It has stayed out of the Kashmir problem too. That tells something. India is very different from what it was in 1962. And the Chinese recognize that. They are not foolish regarding nukes either. They have become smart and all they want is to play against the bigger powers like the US and Russia. India only matters as a staging ground for American counter efforts. And most of us Indians, do not want our country to become an American launching pad either. In all, things will settle down. China will never want to mess with an economically advancing India. It is a huge market. And they are not foolish. India may be facing constant irritation from various directions, but it is not looking at a bleak future. Far from it.

While China did help Sri Lanka, I believe Pakistan was the main supplier of weapons that SL used to crush LTTE.

After SL Gen Fonseca’s visit last year, Pakistan sold 22 Al-Khalid tanks to Sri Lanka in a deal worth over US$100 million. Sri Lanka also purchased Multi-Barrel Rocket Launcher System (MBRLS), cluster bombs, deep penetration bombs and rockets and Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAV) from Pakistan, according to various reports. In fact, Sri Lanka, along with some Middle Eastern nations, has now become one of the largest buyers of Pakistani arms in the last few years.

What happened in Sri Lanka last week is India’s moment of truth, as B.Raman puts it. Sri Lanka has triumphed over LTTE terrorists in spite of India, not because of it. Pakistan, along with China, has clearly played a key role as Sri Lanka’s main arms supplier and trainer in ensuring LTTE’s defeat, and India is clearly not happy with how the events played out leading to Sri Lanka’s win. This new reality highlights the importance of Pakistan as a regional player in South Asia and upsets what India’s national security adviser called New Delhi’s “pre-eminent Position” in the region.

Myra asks:” Everyone. Do you see the creation of an eventual Asian block (made up of a variety of combinations of alliances including India/Pakistan/Iran/China/Russia/SCO members) that leaves little or no room for the United States or Europe?”

A whole slew of disputes, historical grievances and regional flashpoints weigh down on all major Asian countries. Conflict is not inevitable but nor is it inconceivable. If it were to occur – over Taiwan, say, or the Korean peninsula or Tibet or Pakistan – it would not simply be an intra-Asian affair. The outside world would be drawn in.

The US and EU both have an interest in maintaining strong positions in Asia and they may actually prevent the formation of an Asia Union to preserve their own interests. US overtures to India, India-China rivalry, China-Japan mistrust and Korean hatred of Japan can all be used to thwart the emergence of an Asian common market that keeps out the US and Europe.

“This new reality highlights the importance of Pakistan as a regional player in South Asia and upsets what India’s national security adviser called New Delhi’s “pre-eminent Position” in the region”
- Posted by Riaz Haq

Pakistanis seem to be jumping in excitement, to take great credit for something in which their input is nothing but negligible. It seems, they would like to take the credit for Sri Lanka’s defeat of the LTTE just like they take complete credit for the defeat of the Russians in the Afghan war. To term Pakistan as a ‘Regional player in South Asia’ at a time when it’s struggling to stave off failure & bankruptcy, is quite outrageous.

India learned its lesson when the IPKF could not do anything to the LTTE and after Rajiv Gandhi got assassinated. The LTTE had become a sinister outfit. It was like the LeT, highly trained and motivated. There was a fear that the LTTE was spreading its tentacles inside the southern state of Tamil Nadu and it might lead to the formation of a greater Tamil nation, comprising of India’s southern state and northern Sri Lanka. The LTTE realized that without annexing the Tamil Nadu portion, it did not have the chance of forming a Tamil nation inside Sri Lanka alone. Rajiv’s assassination completely wiped out sympathy of the Indian Tamils and the local political parties began to stay away from the LTTE. So it lost vital support from India at a crucial time. If India was like Pakistan and sustained its support for the LTTE by providing weapons and training, Sri Lanka could not have wiped them out, whether they had Pakistani weapons or Chinese weapons. It is good to see India deciding to stay away from the problem. Mind you, Sonia Gandhi who controls the ruling Congress Party at the center is a direct victim of LTTE’s assault. She never allowed the Indian government to interfere and help this terrorist outfit, leading ultimately to its defeat.

Sinhalese hate Indians because of historic reasons that goes beyond 1000 years. The Tamils and Sinhalese have waged wars against each other, with each one emerging victorious. Anyway, India’s non-interference is a good start. For Asian amity, every country has to try non-interference in others’ affairs. Then countries can settle their issues.

China is not a threat. It is an economic and military power and its needs for resources are increasing. So it is doing what the Western powers were doing – building allies, create conflict, sell weapons, mess up the governments, assassinate leaders and force them to fall in line. China is no different. We just need to adjust to their emergence as a global power. We have done that with other powers. It is not a big deal.

Mortal says, “Pakistanis seem to be jumping in excitement, to take great credit for something in which their input is nothing but negligible.”

Don’t take my word for it. Pay attention to what India’s national security adviser and former RAW chief have to say.

Alarmed by reports of Pakistani arms supplies to Sri Lanka in 2008, India said it wanted Sri Lanka to treat Tamils with dignity and also voiced concern that Colombo’s arms purchases may upset New Delhi’s “pre-eminent position” in South Asia. “We are facing a situation where the ceasefire (in Sri Lanka) could collapse. This could lead to a flashpoint,” National Security Adviser M.K. Narayanan said while delivering the 25th Air Chief Marshal P.C. Lal memorial lecture.

India refused to supply what it considered “offensive weapons” to Sri Lanka and opposed any military solution of the “ethnic conflict” while urging Colombo to devolve autonomy to the minorities.

Indian analyst and former RAW chief B. Raman recently summed up India’s geopolitical stance toward Sri Lamka in the following words: “India’s interest in the island is partly emotional and partly strategic.The emotional interest arises from the fact that India has a large Tamil population in Tamil Nadu, a southern province, who have ethnically and linguistically much in common with the Tamils of Sri Lanka. Any policies of the Government of Sri Lanka, which affect the Sri Lankan Tamils, have an echo in Tamil Nadu. Hence, the close Indian interest in the problems and the well-being of the Sri Lankan Tamils. Strategically, the Sri Lankan Government has been cultivating China and Pakistan to keep India in check. It has good political and economic relations with China. It has invited China to construct a modern port in Hambantota in southern Sri Lanka. It has invited the Chinese to help it in gas exploration in areas which are close to India. Similarly, there is a growing military-military relationship between Sri Lanka and Pakistan, which worries India.”

Mauryan: You argue, “This RAW official worked during the Congress government headed by Indira Gandhi and later her son Rajeev Gandhi. During their tenure,..”

OK, but what about the current National Security Adviser M.K. Narayanan who agrees with B. Raman? Is he, too, living in the past?

Myra,

My response to your questions.

1) “Is the 1962 war still a burning issue, or does it seem too far in the past to be relevant?”

- The 1962 war is long buried. There are some unresolved issues such as the border dispute in Arunachal Pradesh(to name one).

2) You ask, “Isn’t the problem with the rising trade with China that India is mostly exporting raw materials while importing manufactured goods from China?”

- Yes, it’s a problem because of two broad reasons; difficulty in competing with China’s pricing structure and relatively poor productivity in mass manufacturing. I’ve read in passing in business magazines.

3) “There have been suggestions lately that China has begun to let Pakistan down”

- The more relevant question, Myra, is has Pakistan let China down. China finds links of Uigher terrorists with groups in Pakistan. Remember Beijing Olympics? China has virtually bought half a dozen small countries, built their infrastructure, sold weapons to their governments for cheap and proliferated sensitive technology if required. Pakistan happens to be just one of them. China is an ‘all-weather’ friend to many such left-outs. Pakistan needs China. China does not need a go-between.

4) “Do you see the creation of an eventual Asian block”

- No, not in next decade at least. But, politics is the art of the possible. Never say never.

Riaz Haq

—Pakistan is most welcome to take the credit of eliminating the LTTE & also as the ‘neo-regional power’, for all we care… India’s never aspired to be one, we do wish the Sri-Lankan’s all the best.

@ “The reality is that India has about…”
—-Well, since we have it, we park it wherever it’s feasible to us, now if my neighbour is agitated & paranoid of it , there’s surely very less we can do about it.

Riaz Haq asks: “but what about the current National Security Adviser M.K. Narayanan who agrees with B. Raman? Is he, too, living in the past?”

A lot of people are living in the past. RAW is not as powerful as it is made out to be. They are government officials and take their orders from the Defense Ministry and the Prime Minister’s office. And today the people in charge of those ministries do not have the same world view as Mrs. Gandhi and her sons. Mrs. Gandhi preferred socialism so that backwardness and poverty could be sustained and she could hold on to power. None of the Prime Minsiters today have such ideals. India has changed. Therefore my request to Pakistanis like you is to see that change and change your attitude towards India. For the past 20 years, India has moved on a very different path. That is why the voters elected Mr. Man Mohan Singh’s party for stability and peace. If our neighbors observe the changes in our country and change their attitudes,goodwill will ensue from all sides. I am hoping Man Mohan Singh brings the back channel diplomatic efforts on Kashmir to fruition. Hope I have made myself clear.

Myra, this is HYPOCRISY!

In your last blog, you didn’t like when some people went outside the topic. Clearly, here you are violating your own rule.

Topic is: “Pakistan: Now or Never?”

Please stop casting India against commis or Talibs. You are deliberately casting India against the Talibs or commis for some self pleasure or career objective.

It is an insult to any civilized country to be cast against the Talibs or Commis.

USA opened up China to the world, and hoped to profit and make more money. Its greed knows no bounds. Now, it has been outsmarted by the Communists, as they can discipline their folk with an iron hand, while Americans have no disciplie whatsoever, only greed. So now, USA is standing in front of China, with a beggar’s bowl.

There is nothing new about the doubt on China’s future. Some (maybe many) people forcasted China would break to pieces 30, 50 or even 100 years ago, but after so many years and after so many events happened, China is still there, as a whole, and getting more prosperous.

I don’t see any benefit of leaping from communism to capaticsm, though it seems everybody is taking that opinion for granted. Comparing China with world’s most populous countries, like India, Indonisia, Russia, Pakistan, maybe Brazilia, you see how effective the Chinese government is in boosting the ecomony. These countries copied US’s political system and only ended as a mess. Obviously, India has been punished by the so-called democracy will continue to be punished until it finds some other way to go.

Capitalism leads to war as always, as you all see. Pakistan and India have fighted each other for 50 years. US fighted Panama, Capitalisted Ugoslavia; Israel has fighted Palestan for 50 years too. Sri Lanka had a civil war for decades, until China helped to realize peace.

US is good, because it’s rich, but no more than that. I don’t see any country so far has copied US’s system and has got rich after that.

China taught Pakistan how to use tanks effectively on your own citizens.

While using tanks, Pakistan acquired the skills to use F-16s on their own citizens and to make 2-3 mil people desperate refugees in their own country.

Pakistan taught these skills to Sri Lankan army.

But Pakistan didn’t teach Sri Lank how to digest billions of aid and still beg effectively every other day – I want more, my people want more or else ..!

Good grace! At least China will block the UN investigations.

If there is ever any meanful investigation by UN, it should first investigate how US used chemical weapon in Vietnam and caused hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese to be disabled the whole life. Has US ever said a sorry for that?

US didn’t open China to the world. US blocked China from recovering the permanent membership of UN Security Council for 20 years and blocked China from joining GATT/WTO for 20 years. Chinese people won’t forget that.

“Chinese people won’t forget that.”
-posted by SunnyZ

If the CCP says so, they will. 2 trillion in trade reserves yet still considered “developing”. Who’s fooling Hu here?

Last point. The China-India tensions are in large part because of all the border disputes and China’s militarization of its western regions. Once a border pact can be worked out (and China drops its claims to AP) we could see a significant reduction in tensions.

The economic competition will continue abated, however.

SunnyZ

— What’s the ratio of the Have’s & Have-not’s in Communist China ? — 80 – 20? & to which region is prosperity limited? How long could they suppress a billion humans?
— How many political capital punishments take place on trivial charges each yr.? — 2000 – 3000?
— Will Tiannemen square be suppressed forever? Will religious aspirations be suppressed forever? how long will Tibet & Xinjiag be held? How long will they be able to sustain ‘Mao’ as God?
— Will the ‘Law’ never catch-up with all these negativism?

“—At the @ which the US is printing $ & eventually will render their bonds worthless , then China will go Kaput – Bankrupt.”
-posted by anup
—————————–

Or Americans quit buying Chinese goods, and buy Indian-made products. You may not believe me, but I have been on the “pro-India” campaign for some time now. You have the work force, democracy, and are finally building the proper infrastructure. India can equal the balance in Asia (and feed its population). The question is, does India want to?

- We’ve ruled the hearts & minds of China for thousands of years.

Look at what this naive Indian is thinking about! Gosh, how successful the Indian media purged this guy’s brain.

—US is printing $ & eventually will render their bonds worthless , then China will go Bankrupt.

If so, US will go bankrupt first, while it doesn’t really matter to China since it’s only a small part of the whole wealth.

Patrick writes: “Americans quit buying Chinese goods, and buy Indian-made products. You may not believe me, but I have been on the “pro-India” campaign for some time now. You have the work force, democracy, and are finally building the proper infrastructure. India can equal the balance in Asia (and feed its population). The question is, does India want to?”

American business is so reliant on Chinese manufacturing that there is no way they can boycott Chinese goods. There is no way one can beat the Chinese price and productivity. Businessmen do not care for politics or principles. At the end of each quarter they want profits to rise higher than before and their market share increase. So long as that goal is attained, they do not care if people are suffocating or dying to meet their demands.

The US should start following consistent principle in geo-politics and business in the future. They should make it a requirement that businesses cannot deal with dictatorships and autocracies, no matter what kind of problem they’d face domestically. Had they followed this principle, they wouldn’t have had to follow the “my enemy’s enemy is my friend,” “He may be a SOB, but he is our SOB,” type policies. That is what led to the Americans cozying up to the Chinese and their overt and covert support to criminal states around the world.

The end result is OBL, Al Qaeda, Communist China as a super power, nuclear powered Iran, Pakistan, North Korea and many civil wars in Africa and so on. The US is not alone in this. US and the Western European powers are responsible for today’s chaos.

I’d like India to shut up and just work humbly in order to tough it out through these troubled times. This may take a decade or two to come out of. As an Indian, I want India not to make the mistakes others have made and work towards the well being of its people, even if money is short and business prospects around the globe do not look promising. Let the Chinese build networks and tunnels everywhere. What goes up, comes down some time. And Chinese do not have what it takes to sustain themselves as a likable and benevolent super power. They are going to be viewed just like the erstwhile USSR. So there will be another cold war. I want India to stay out of it and be quiet.

@My observations have surprised myself. In India, people I met are so vividly remember the Sino-Indian War of 1960~1962, whereas people I met in China hardly remember this war happened.
– Posted by Traveler

Tarveler: I will agree with your view that more Indian remember 1962 vividly than chinese. But did you figure out why? It is not that Chinese have natural tendency of not remembering things or are unaware of international politics. Rather like Indians they love to discuss international politics. If you talk to them about Japan, they will appear more hostile towards Japanese and also on Taiwan, each every chinese knows what the issue is from Chinse POV. India suffered in 1962 war by losing a large chunk of land and the war happned in the backdrop of “five principals of Indo-Chinese friendship” termed “Panchsheel”. Indians view this as backstabbing and that has led to chinese in general being seen that way. Here is one real example: My new chinese colleague asked me “are you a Pakistani?”. I smiled and counterquestioned “Are you a Japanese?”. She said “NO, NO. I hate them”. I said “I do not hate Pakistanis, but I am not one”. So it all depends.

@Indian governments should focus all the energies and valuable resources on infrastructures (roads, airports, railways, housing, water systems, … etc) to elevate its economic productivity and government efficiency, instead of revelry with China and Pakistan.
-India is not focusing building rivalry, rather India is forced to deal with them.

All issues go at one time. When we talk of countries, there is nothing like India leaving something for later. India has made a lot of progress, despite numerous speed breakers. India has a long way to to go but it is on the right track, except that it needs to accelerate.

@I don’t see any benefit of leaping from communism to capaticsm, though it seems everybody is taking that opinion for granted. Comparing China with world’s most populous countries, like India, Indonisia, Russia, Pakistan, maybe Brazilia, you see how effective the Chinese government is in boosting the ecomony. These countries copied US’s political system and only ended as a mess. Obviously, India has been punished by the so-called democracy will continue to be punished until it finds some other way to go.
-BY SunnyZ

–It is not correct to call your country China as a “communist country”. It is labeled as a communist country, is surely not a democracy, is highly and increasingly capitalistic in nature, has dictatorship (by CCP), but surely “no power to people” (who cannot decide their leader and may be earning millions will have to say “cheese” whichever leader is dished out and is highly corrupt–especially in small towns (by chinese people admission). So this is a political system which is being modified from time to time, keeping in mind the discontent of the people but based on one common principal—to keep the power in the hands of CCP, whatever it takes. The problem is this follows no particular ideology and sooner or later the interest of the people and the CCP will not go hand-in-hand. With the increasing exposure to the Western culture in China and many Chinese abroad, who see the advantages of demcoracy, this in the long-term is inevitable.

I am a ‘common man’ and will speak for the common man.

As I said in my last post, when we talk about “WAR”, nuclear-biological weapons supremacy, who-is-who is Asia, who gave Sri-Lanka weapons to kill (and take pride in that), where are we going? What are we? Did you say humans, the so called most ‘intelligent’ form of life on earth? BS.

This territoriality, self assumed supremacy, and our chauvinism just reminds me of the ‘street-dogs’. I always wonder why in the world they have such a huge ‘issue’ with ‘my-place’. We call ourselves an advanced species, but have we, really, moved ahead of the same mammalian instincts that we had millions of years ago?

I have two parents. Each had two. That makes a total of four. each had two and hence eight parents. If you go on like this, say for few 100 levels, and think the same about every human alive, GOSH, we will have more parents than the total no of life forms ever on the planet. How is that possible?
It is possible because all of us, some time in the past had a common parent. We are all brothers and sisters, born out of the same primates that emerged in Africa some million years ago. I don’t know how then, we are Americans, Russians, Chinese, Indian, Pakistani, Sri Lankan, Hindu, Muslim, Christian, and everything that can still divide.

I feel pity for our short sightedness. I see a wretched 80 year old in my streets, hungry, begging. I see a 6 month old dying of hunger because her parents can’t find work to feed her. I see a corrupt policeman, taking bribe from a drunk driver and letting him go. And then I see the nuclear bombs. I see ‘big people’ talking about billion dollar deal with Israel for a radar technology to counter the ‘missile’ threat. I hear about Taliban blowing up a suicide bomber in Islamabad and killing scores of innocent people. I hear about millions of people in Pakistan displaced due to war in SWAT. I see Tamil tigers blowing up innocent Sri-Lankan’s. I see dead bodies of tamils, shattered in the war to uncountable pieces. I see hungry, sick, weak people. And I feel WOW..!!! We are humans.

I love Chinese food (more than half of India does). Chinese love Taj-mahal. Indians listen to urdu songs and fall in love. Pakistanis love Bollywood (and Shahrukh-Khan). Indians wear Levi’s jeans. Americans use Indian software. A common man loves peace, food for their children and a happy life.

And then, again. India should be ready for Chinese bombs. Pakistan should have Nukes to counter India. Sri-Lanka needs Chines arms.

Dogs, all of us. Just plain simple street dogs.

I just Love this world…!!!!

This is very important i.e our Govt & politection understan the need of our country.They provided good support to our people, who can dominte the world in all the field.Our GOVT should take some hard decission, which will hepl every body, Because we all r INDIAN!

Pakistan has always tried to impersonate India, after the N-Deal with USA by India, Pakistan immediately started getting a pact signed up with Chinese Authorities.

China indeed is a bigger threat to all Asian Countries, and its main target, is, was and will be India, and now Pakistan is with China so the effect will be more ….

The Kashmir issue has been pending since past 60 Years, I wonder why and what for India is waiting for !!! Lets take an example, LTTE occupied Sri Lankan territories, and the war between the Lankan Govt. was on for 25 years, but when Lankan Govt. decided to take strict actions they demolished the LTTE Factor from Lanka,

Why India is not taking strict actions against Pakistan when it comes to Kashmir, that Land belongs to India and we should retain it, recent attacks in India has proved that Pakistan is still trying to bring instability in our land.

And now Pakistan is clearly diverting the issue trying to prove the US and China that they are in more threat than Indian by the militants, if we analyze closely Talibani’s and other militant agencies are funded and belong to Pakistan, they are their step military forces, wherein under the name of religion they perform their illegal actions …..

Is India ever going to use its missiles or are they only for display on Independence Day and Republic Day.

China is much more organized, but by helping the Pakistani’s they are digging their own grave, USA by funding Pakistani’s are increasing more burden on their economy, instead they should fund the Companies which are going bankrupt in their own country.

India and majorly all the politicians now should stop fighting internally and should think and take strict actions against all the internal and external threats against those who are against India.

A last example to explain ” When WTC was destroyed in USA, USA didnt asked other nations or UN or they didn’t filed a case against Laden, but instead they launched a straight attack …. so around 5000 people died in WTC, and a war was declared against Laden, and what India is doing for past 60 years, many have died and many are dieing and what we do is file case, talk to enemies , talk to UN , prepare questionnaire, prepare DNA reports !!!!

Wade,

Please read something more than just the Chinese Politburo agenda before writing about India and Dalai Lama.

@Mauryan,

You are completely right, China’s upper limit is actually limited by the minds of its people and its lack of democracy.

I have worked with Chinese immigrant professionals and they are almost shell-shocked by how westerners question everything, everyday. These guys are hard workers, but will not question anything and will keep their head down working and even follow wrong orders if you tell them, that is a part of their mind control programming, to submit.

They were mortified, when I would question my boss during meetings and asked if I was afraid of being fired, I said no, everybody’s opinion is important, that is what makes us strong.

This explains the root cause why the Chinese are afraid of the Buddhist, the Buddhist represent the free-ing of the mind, freedom to explore new states of conciousness. The Chinese Junta believe that their society will come apart if people being to think for themselves, as they do in Western countries and to a large extent, India.

The Chinese government is very protective of their rigid control over the minds of its citizens and will goto any length to stop outside influences.

This will be their undoing, I have seen it for myself, as a person’s mind becomes free, they don’t blindly follow orders, they become more creative and much happier.

If only China knew, they are killing the happiness of their citizens and spiritually enslaving them. A spritually enslaved person will be void of creation and imagination and will never achieve their full potential.

Is it any wonder why everybody wants to always goto Western countries and live a better way of life?

India in that respect, has not even revved up its diesel engine, when it does, freedom of spirit, coupled with freedom of mind, coupled with Technology, India is poised to surpass China as a superpower and will one day even pass the U.S.

Historically speaking, this is the sole reason why India is always kept “contained” by the Americans helping Pakistan all the time. Time will tell, if Obama is the same mind slave as previous presidents.

Rahul Sinha
“I just Love this world…!!!!”

— Welcome on Planet Earth! ofcourse you have the right to leave it at will or bring about a transformation.

Rajeev:
“Pakistan’s future will continue to be decided by foreign powers through different mechanisms.”

-Despite many doubts being raised about Pakistan’s future, there are important developments taking place in Pakistan. Ordinary Pakistanis will gradually become masters of their own destiny, and they forced a former General and President out of office last year and fought their way in the streets for two consecutive years to restore an independent judiciary. With more than two dozend independent channels and a vibrant media and vocal civil society change will come gradually. I see in the future outside powers will have less and less leverage on Pakistan. Economic stability is one thing Pakistan needs surely, and you can see Pakistan is carrying out a full fledge war against terrorists at one hand and facing and dealing with terror attacks on the other hand. Still warnings of Pakistan imploding soon have been proved wrong.

@Despite many doubts being raised about Pakistan’s future, there are important developments taking place in Pakistan.
- Posted by Umair

“Economic stability is one thing Pakistan needs surely”
- Posted by Umair

–yes and that will help in self reliance and no arm twisting, but unless Pak is democratic even a rich Pakistan, but ruled by a dictator, will be arm twisted so there is no other way than to continue in the direction of democracy, and this does not happen suddenly. Leaders do not sprout in vacuum. A factor that is completely absent is a good relation between India-Pak. This will help a lot in the economic and political stability of the Pak (and India). A reorientation of certain policies will be needed and will automatically happen as the pol system changes to stable democracy with civilian govt calling the shots.

@Pakistan is carrying out a full fledge war against terrorists at one hand and facing and dealing with terror attacks on the other hand. Still warnings of Pakistan imploding soon have been proved wrong.
–Not to discredit, but Pak right now is fighting for its own sake. Some people think that terrorism is because of US presence—actually it has been dormant and is just showing up now. Hypothetically if US leaves and deriving peace through negotitations is not workable. Let us see how this all goes since Taliban have proven to be invincible so far. Hope this death and destruction of civilans helps defeating them. From Indian POV the terrorists that hit India have also to be be taken care of. This is more of a political decision than anything else. India-Pak bilateral talks have to and will resume sooner or later and on the top of the agenda has to be tacking the terrorists. Kashmir solution without sincerely eliminating terrorists is not a feasible option. This anyway is a positive step for Pak’s own interest. Terrorism as a policy (or other such strategic tools) may work in the short run but in the long run start becoming counterproductive and self-destructive. A case in point is Taliban.

The terrorists attacks will happen in short run but avoiding that through negotiating with terrorist will cause irreversible damage.

I am not into forcasting the future of Pakistan or its collapse but one thing is sure that all the events were not taking Pakistan any forward.

Umair says:

“Economic stability is one thing Pakistan needs surely, and you can see Pakistan is carrying out a full fledge war against terrorists at one hand and facing and dealing with terror attacks on the other hand. Still warnings of Pakistan imploding soon have been proved wrong.”

Actually, that is incorrect, it is the western flank, undertrained soldiers who are taking on the Taliban, the real Army is always stationed on the Eastern Flank of Pakistan, ready to do a “COLD START” Strike first war on India.

It is too early to tell if Pakistan is going to implode. The fact of the matter is, is that the Army is not trained to fight in the cities and your civilian police forces are corrupt, grossly underpaid, very unco-ordinated, undertrained, extremely unarmed and take bribes from anybody for looking the other way. My respects to those who are not like that and have died at the hands of militants. Is it any wonder why Mumbai’s are planned in open broad daylight in Pakistan and nobody stops these Militant criminals?

Internally, there are too many security cracks within Pakistan because its security focus has been so outward, to show its stance against India.

The police forces, even in Islamabad or Rawalpindi are incapable of taking on militants. The real civil war in Pakistan will start when the Taliban or which ever home grown proxy army you have, begins to challenge the Police in the cities. The police are incapable at this point, to handle a terrorist crisis and the military does not have the ability to take the fight to the cities and do urban warfare, without using Tanks and F-16′s, in other words, they are used to aggressing India in a conventional war and either do not know or unwilling to get their hands dirty. That is the true reason why Pakistan’s security is at risk and why average Pakistani’s know that the tsunami of militantism and civil war are on the horizon.

It would be wise for Pakistan to give more training to their police forces to wage an Army like urban warfare on Militants with some military training, or the Army has to get off their Tanks and F-16s in Kashmir and take a bus over to Islamabad and make a difference there and in SWAT.

Civil disorder is around the corner, if Pakistan is unwilling to shed its soldiers from the eastern side.

In short, the Army and the Police are both not prepared to properly deal with the tsunami of Militantism. The root cause is Pakistan’s obession with maintaining a standoff position with India. All that time, Pakistan has forgot its own internal security and let it rot.

Pakistan need not worry, India does not want to invade Pakistan for any reason, it would be wise to redeploy most of its army away from India.

If Pakistan does that, India will return in kind and that will be the first step to Kashmir mending itself.

Global watcher:
” the real Army is always stationed on the Eastern Flank of Pakistan, ready to do a “COLD START” Strike first war on India. ”

-I see your lack of understanding here, you are cmpletely unaware. The ‘cold start’ doctrine have been evolved by the Indian Army. Pakistan Army in return adopts a doctrine of limited ‘offensive defense’. Here is the difference between the two, Indian Army(cold start doctrine) implies thrusting Pakistan from 6 to 8 fronts through mechanized IBGs(Integrated Battle groups) smaller units backed by cover from Indian Air Force in case of any war. While Pakistan Army (offensive defense) implies launching a preemptive strike deep into Indian territory in and capture maximum territory and hold on to it as a bargaining chip in any ceasefire post war negotiations.

“It is too early to tell if Pakistan is going to implode. The fact of the matter is, is that the Army is not trained to fight in the cities ”

-Early or late, Pakistan’s implosion is completely out of question. A 170 million strong nation under a democratic dispensation and fully backed by Armed Forces is prepared to deal with every challenge. The US in engaged in different counter insurgency training programs at higher advisory levels and are training the FC(Frontier Corps) for CI operations. Pakistan-NATO ties have expanded significantly, just last month Army chief met with NATO secretary general, Pakistan Army is also engaged in training with NATO
http://www.nato.int/cps/en/SID-D06A8151- F79D7769/natolive/news_55016.htm?selecte dLocale=en

Pakistan Army has been using heavy handed tactics so far in Swat but definitely its CI capability is going to develop further in the future with the current training programs ongoing.

” your civilian police forces are corrupt, grossly underpaid, very unco-ordinated, undertrained, extremely unarmed and take bribes from anybody for looking the other way.”

-I live in Rawalpindi and daily drive to my office located in the red zone of Islamabad where all five star hotels, diplomatic enclave and government buildings are located. The City traffic Police in Rawalpindi and ITP(Islamabad Traffic Ploice) patrol and enforce traffic laws. Islamabad Police and Punjab Police in Rawalpindi are responsible for manitaining law and order. And I almost on a daily basis get to meet policemen who hitch hike with me on the road ( i always give lift to them when they wave), I get to speak with them, I know their morale is high. I know how they fight back despite the heavy odds they are up against. The Police and emergency services personnel are really super heroes in this situauion that despite the threat they fight back daily and save many lives. Yesterday the gun and bomb attack in Peshawar, the CCPO-senior police officer was filmed by camera crew responding to the attack, personally grabbing a gun and returning fire against the terrorist and commanding the operation himself on the ground.

While in Mumbai attacks, the Indian security services performance was dismal, the NSG Commandoes were stranded at Delhi airport for hours before they were flown into Mumbai to deal with the terrorists. The reason, the NSG didnt have their own aircraft. Than Indian special forces were criticized by israel the way they attacked the Chabbad jewish house where the Jewish Rabbi was killed. With in hours top ATC officer Hemant Karkare was killed along with others.

“Internally, there are too many security cracks within Pakistan because its security focus has been so outward, to show its stance against India.”

-Despite some security lapses, Pakistan is aware of the internal and external threats to national security. Apart from LEAs(Local law enforcement agencies) Pakistan has many agencies like the ANF(Anti Narcotics Force) responsible for guarding drug smuggling at the borders. ASF(Airport Security Force) guarding the airports, numerous investigative agencies under the interior ministry like the FIA(Federal Investigation agency) most of Pakistan’s paramilitary forces like the FC, Rangers etc are trained and commanded by Pakistan Army. All these forces are more than capable of taking on gangsters, criminal thugs, militants, terrorists, drug traffickers or any elements.

” That is the true reason why Pakistan’s security is at risk and why average Pakistani’s know that the tsunami of militantism and civil war are on the horizon.”

- Every terrorist attack makes the resolve of ordinary Pakistanis even strong, we are not afraid of civil war, entire nation backs the Army, all political parties back the military operations. Pakistan is united to fight back the terrorists and help those IDPs who are affected by military ops.

“Civil disorder is around the corner, if Pakistan is unwilling to shed its soldiers from the eastern side.”

-Year 2009 has been termed as the year of training by the Army chief, right now COAS visited Lahore yesterday where Army is engaged in rigorous traning exercises on the eastern border
http://www.pakistanarmy.gov.pk/awpreview  /homepage.aspx
You know very well now and have an idea how capable Pakistan is of maintaining internal stability and law and order so matters dont get out of hand and result in civil disorder. We are talking about Police forces fighting while even ordinary citizens collecting charity and releif supplies for IDPs. Every one is united.

Now I come to the most important part, last but not the least:
Pakistan Army counterinsurgency capability and urban warfare in Swat, Malakand.

There are basically two types of Urban warfare:
1. Military to military.
2.Guirella warfare
The Taliban are engaging Pakistan Army in guirella warfare in cities like Swat, Malakand. Here the technological advantage by Pak Army is nullified, while training and technique of the Army is more important in engaging with the Taliban. What my knowledge is,
1.In urban fighting cover fire is very important.
2.Movement of troops is to be well coordinated to avoid friendly fire.
3.Army has to work slowly and systematically, which is being done in Swat, Mingora etc.
4.Troops have to avoid in falling in traps.
5.Effective preparation and tactics are necessary.
6.Troops have to be properly supplied and briefed.
In short in a complex theater of war the line between success and failure is thin. The war game, strategic planning and setting goals are all important factors. I have no doubts in the professionalism of Pakistan, as one who lost friends in the Army fighting against terrorists I am proud of Pakistan Army and our brave security forces. The fact that Pakistan contributes highest number of soldeirs in keeping peace around the world as UN peacekeepers, I have no doubt about Pakistani security services to maintain law and order at home and keep the peace.

Yasir Hussain says:
May 29th, 2009 at 3:54 pm @Dr. Malek Towghi

How much america had paid for a war initiated by them and for them? surely not a small part of what we pakistanis have paid.

We are not so fool nation that “to get your cheques” we have compromised our security and even our future.

No, its not pakistan which is part of problem but its America. they started a war in afghanistan in 80’s in the name of jihad and it was american printing press who printed jihadi lectures for pakistani madrassas. its alright till 89 because USSR was a common enemy for both pakistan and US. but at the end of war, what they did is called “presslor amendment”. they trained 80,000 jihadi commandos and at the end imposed sanctions on us and left us alone for them. We had no option but to try to settle them. and for this we are accused of “links” with them. tell me how can we try to settle them without “links”. although Ronald Ragon once called them “forefathers”.

Again they repeated the thing, after capturing Afghanistan in 2002 they had to be concerned about them but again they left it and focus their attention on Iraq for WMD which were never discovered.

meanwhile india made it strong in Afghanistan and started to propagate anti pakistan sentiments over there.
Saqib Khan says:
May 29th, 2009 at 3:29 pm I wish that the Pakistan Government should have gone after the Taliban leadership in order to eliminate them rather then going after few hundred militants and insurgents in this very expensive military operation that would ruin Pakistan’s already hand to mouth economy. Over 2.5 million people of Swat have been made to flee their homes, agricultural land, and livelihood and made to live under the open skies in 40C temperature, horrendous conditions without sanitation, medical, water, electricity and without adequate food supplies.

President Asif Ali Zardari is obeying American administration orders and applying President Obama’s policies in Pakistan and this military operation was an American order that has to be obeyed to receive American 1.85 billion dollars. It should be remembered that USA is the richest world economy and the most technologically developed country in the world and has so far failed to defeat Al-Qaeda and Taliban in Afghanistan despite wasting over five trillion dollars on lost the war. It is a misconceived perception that Pakistan can defeat war of terrorism on its soil by bullets and bombs. President is misleading the nation and PPP has no idea what is doing or should to fight terrorism and sort out its domestic, economic, defense and diplomatic problems.

If it were happening in the USA, UK and other European countries, their interior ministers would have resigned long time ago for negligence, incompetence and inability to handle their jobs. Rehamn Malik, the interior minister is always telling Pakistanis Your country is in danger” as if he is not a Pakistani but a foreigner. This is the price that Pakistan will have to pay to ally itself with the West and for getting expensive American aid with long list of string attached.

It is about time that he is sacked from his post and Pakistanis are saved from more atrocities. This government is incapable of handling Pakistans internal and external problems and dragging the country into a big hole. In the West these terrorists are caught even before they blow themselves and innocent human beings; and are even caught when they are planning a terrorist act. Rehman Malik has so far failed to come up with any thing positive and even those arrested red handed in the terrorist activities are never heard off afterwards.

The recently displaced US, Gen McKiernan, has said many times that we will never win the “hearts and minds” of the Afghan people but we can win their support, though we will not do that through military operations alone. The struggle is not about killing insurgents. We have killed more insurgents than we can count over the past seven years and have moved no closer to victory by doing so. This struggle is about the Afghan population. Afghans must believe that their government will provide them greater security and opportunity for prosperity than the insurgency will. We are not naive; we know that military operations must continue and that some people must be killed — but under McKiernan a more holistic approach to winning the peace has been our focus. These are the “conventional” tactics he has been employing. To those who say we have moved too slowly, to those looking for the quick fix or fast score that will enable our forces to come home, I urge caution.

The Americans, British, Indians and Israelis are all involved in a devils conspiracy to fragmentize Pakistan, and the terrorists who so ever they are and from where ever they come from are beyond any shadow of a doubt are trained, armed, funded and logistically supported by the Pakistans enemies around its borders and from far away. The Americans are playing a very duplicitous game here: they want to control Pakistans Baluchistan for its strategic importance and also for its abundant natural resources. If President Asif Ali Zardari stays in power for more one year, American long held dream of controlling Central Asia would appear to be coming true. This inept Pakistani PPP government has no idea of what they are doing or should do to combat terrorism. This military operation will surely bankrupt already hand-to mouth Pakistan’s economy that has become so dependent on US hand outs.

Azad says: I will bring in (cut and paste) the Pakistanis’ opinions from DAWN blog, without my own viws. This way more Paks can be heard on this frum.

Umair,

There was no “personal attack” on Myra. Though people heavily “criticized” her for not being neutral. There is a fine line my dear.

@”What is required from all of us is to refrain from personal attacks, specially against the author, and engage each other in meaningful, constructive debate and stick to the topic. Also, share links and back up our views/opinions with relevant links/references where possible.”

Good that your are talking sense. So when are you giving us the links/references of indian involvement in Balochistan and NWFP that you promised about a month before?

Umair,

I have no problem with bias, as I stated before, it is the essential basis of personal opinion which cannot be bias.
I understand that some may have a problem with the responsibilities of a moderator being for or against an issue but as far as im concerned they are also entitled to their opinions and if they appear to favour one ideal over another I cant see how there’s anything abnormal or unfair about that.
Im more concerned with freedom of expression, which is apparently the cause of having a news-blog free to the public in the first place. It is obviously the responsibility of the moderators in this forum to maintain respectful, if passionate, debate on news issues, however I dont believe that line was even close to being crossed before the blog was shut down, and think its a disappointing abuse of moderating authority it that situation to do so after Myra entered the debate and drew criticism for her points of view.
We are all subject to criticism if we chose to enter an opinion into a debate and unless obvious lines of aggression and personal disrespect are crossed there is no need to close a string because your opinions are not popular.
All blogs stray off topic and clash on opinions, it doesn’t mean arguments cant be resolved and topics cant get back on track. Debate isn’t always constructive, but we still all come here to express our opinions and should be allowed to disagree with anyone who has been allowed to voice their own.

1) The conversation is going off topic. If it does not get back on topic, I shall close the post.

2) Whoever said this is our resource not yours got it wrong. It’s not a public platform to say whatever you like.

3) Free speech does not cover libel, which is what you are doing if you accuse a journalist of bias. I shall in future delete all such comments, except in the case of those of you who are willing to identify yourselves with full name and contact details. (Do however read my articles and book, in which I make every effort to seek all points of view, before making such an accusation.)

4) Seeking a civil discussion which remains on topic, and which allows all sides to express their point of view is not bias – it’s about balance, which is a requirement of my profession.

Now please get back on topic – this post is about the role of China.

Myra

Myra
“Whoever said this is our resource not yours got it wrong. It’s not a public platform to say whatever you like.”

-With due respect, I know what you stated, I hear you, I didn’t meant to take ownership of anything. But just to clarify, If I find Indians stating rubbish about Pakistan on this forum, I will have the right to respond, so please don’t delete my comments then. Thanks