Pakistan: Now or Never?

Sanjeev:
” The wounds from the 26/11 attack on Mumbai for which the Pakistan-based group Lashkar-e-Taiba has been held responsible, remain fresh for a large number of Indians. They are not in a mood to forgive or forget.”

With all due respect Sanjeev, the wounds of East Pakistan in 1971 are still bleeding in Pakistan too. Can Pakistan also forgive forever? think about it, we are talking about some bad blood between India and Pkaistan.

All the rest is just talk, its a cat and mouse game. This way or that, do this or not. It will carry on.

The good old days of India relying on US to put pressure on Pakistan are gone. Pakistan knows how to navigate Washington very well.Let India and Pakistan go all out for initiatives, peace initiatives. In India you have a statesman like Manmohan Singh, I hope we have a real leader in Pakistan too. Only then we can have peace, merely keep shouting Pakistan is a sponsor of terrorism is not going to help. Someone also trained and funded Mukti-Bahni insurgents in East Pakistan as well. What goes around comes around as well.

India should increase its presence alongside the Pakistani border and LoC if anything.

Until every single Lashkar-e-Taiba/JuD leader is killed or jailed forever by Pakistan, there should be no peace talks and if Pakistan keeps delaying the prosecution of LeT leaders for their role in Mumbai, then India should suspend diplomatic relations as well.

No compromises with state sponsors of terror. And no talks until Mumbai culprits are eliminated by Pakistan.

@The good old days of India relying on US to put pressure on Pakistan are gone.
-posted by Umair

Umair: During the times when Pakistan is in deep trouble and needs increasing number of sane minds, your sense of history is alarmingly low. I thought India was more used to Russians than rely on US, isn;t it? talking specifics, you know what US and China could do to you. Pakistan asked China and US for help. All China wanted was to support with arms (no biggie) but a statement that suggested that they will stay out and watch–perhaps thaey thought Pak is getting into trouble with India too many times too frequently (1948, 65, 71). And about US, police arrived when the war was over.
Please read some good account of 1971 of your choice, except pakistani and Indian version for obvious reasons. Also dig a short artcile by ex-Pak Air Chief Asghar Khan (?) in Dawn that pakistan attacked India all the time and presented India the opportunties to do so in 1971. When he says that the means 6 milllion refugees pouring into India @60,000/day. Yes India did support Mukti Bahni but they were citizens of your country who needed help and India cannot take 6 million refugee, while Pakistan generals listened to no one internationally.
Pakistan has a knack of landing into trouble in the most silly ways–If pakistan would have allowed Awami league to form govt, who won a solid majority of 167 of the 313 total seats in the assembly, nothing would have happened. Also it was Pakistan who started the open war–by attacking India (air and ground attacks) from W. Pakistan on December 3, 1971. Rest is history.

@Someone also trained and funded Mukti-Bahni insurgents in East Pakistan as well. What goes around comes around as well.
- Posted by Umair

-Good thoughts.
LTTE and Mukti Bahni are history.
I hope pakistan does that to all terrorist outfits it created and are now getting out of control. demand for your own sake. You already know the results of Talibinization of Afghanistan–it is Talibinization of Pakistan.

THOSE whom are interested in 1971 India-Pak war account:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/l ibrary/report/1984/KRG.htm

India should take the gamble. It has nothing to loose and everything to gain.

If India pulls back and more attacks happen that originate from Pakistan then it is Pakistan that will look bad. International (not just US) pressure would increase on Pakistan. Pakistan’s image as another Afghanistan or Somalia would be cemented…after all let’s be honest that’s what most of the world thinks of Pakistan today anyway….it’s certainly the impression given off by the BBC or CNN. For India, it might cost them a few lives but the strategic gains would be significant. Global opinion would swing in their favour. Pakistan would find it increasingly difficult to use the victim card. I fail to see the downside here even if Pakistan does not reciprocated India’s gestures.

Alternatively, if Pakistan does do more to fight the Taliban then the whole region and the world would gain. The Pakistanis would finish off the Taliban. Afghanistan would begin to stabilize. Ditto for Pakistan. The immense economic potential of Pakistan would be unleashed. Eventually more permanent progress would come to the India-Pakistan relationship. And that rapprochement might even lead to EU style regional integration.

This all sounds far-reaching. But the way I see it there is very little for India to loose by calling Pakistan’s bluff. Sure they might loose a few lives because of more attacks, but if 26/11 proved anything, it’s that the Indian people are a remarkably resilient bunch. If an attack like 26/11 happened in the US, everybody would still be talking about it, studying it and budgeting billions for improvements to security. Mumbaikars on the other hand dust themselves off and go to work the morning after. So India certainly has the space to give in a little.

Sanjeev,

I dont see any harm in reducing troops from Rajisthan and Punjab. However we have seen no signs of reduction of cross border infiltration in Kashmir(Infact it has gone up). So i dont think reducing troops from Kashimir is judicious.

But since most of Paki troops are based out of POK (An assumption) i dont think any reduction unless done from Indian Kashmir is going to help call the bluff which we can ill afford.

So all in all good suggestion but not workable.

I agree with chirkut. Indo-US cooperation part ways right there.

Its all or none as for as terrorists are concerned, not just Taliban and al Qaida.US and others should include LeT, JeM and all other terror outfits as target. I was given to understand its a global war on terror, it doesnt seem to be the case.

Keith,

That ‘up for sale was targeted at your “Sure they might loose a few lives because of more attacks,” comment. Looks like it missed its target

Banning or putting organization on watch list is a half hearted attempt to placate. If that is the yardstick than LeT was banned way back by Mushy. Even in your above comment you are more occupied with Taliban rather than all terrorists operating out of Pak.

Analysts do discuss a lot of things. Indian analysts discussed hot pursuit also a couple of years back. But it has not been used till date because we love our countrymen more than we hate those terrorists. And hot pursuit will lead to consequences no longer in our control.

You are probably better placed than me to judge where PAK army is predominantly placed. My guess is that its deployed heavily in lahore and pindi till PoK. And India can ill afford to move out troops from those areas given the fact that infiltration has gone up in those areas. But probably we can move little troops from Rajsthan and Punjab but then it will have little impact.

So if i analyze the argument. By moving our troops we are exposing our citizens to terrorists(Unethical for any govt) in return for “probable” quashing of Taliban(Which honestly to me is low risk for India as of now) with no guarantee on LeT and HuM etc. What is our gain in that?

Its strange to think that you have so many strings to pull on pak like cutting aid and/or support and sanctions and you don’t exercise it and expect India to take all the risk and ease the job for you.

Probably unrelated. Tell me what exactly has been done since the report of Pak accelerating its N-program has come to light ? Last time you turned blind eye towards pak resulted in you ending up in mess that is now.

Keith, Chirkut and Azad,
Keith:
@But the way I see it there is very little for India to loose by calling Pakistan’s bluff.”
-May be or may not be anything to lose. More terrorists may or may not enter India. But where is the gain here? Taliban has not hit India and is not our enemy enough to move troops to facilitate their targeting at the risk of infiltration of the likes of LeT who did 26/11. So I agree with Chirkut and Azad views on this. Mr. Obama and Holbrooke said several times that India is not a risk to Pakistan and now PM Manmohan Singh also said just now that India will not attack Pakistan. But Pakistan would not listen. They guys are rusting their guns and wasting their time at India-Pak border. One cannot wake up the already wide awake but pretending. The reason is Pak needs $$$$. One way India can think to move some troops is a sincere statements and an agenda by Pakistan and International forces against LeT/JeM/HuM. So far you know it very well that US/NATO have no intention to target LeT or pressurize Pak. I do not see Indian troops withdraal happening before India-Pak bilateral talks resume with “terrorism against India” on top of the agenda.

Keith

—The prob. is that all such suggestions are based on the assumptions that by doing so we’ll call off the Pakistani bluff of India being an existential threat to them – all for the amusement of the Americans – but what if it doesn’t satisfies the whims & fancies of the Americans & seeing this as a sign of weakness it demands India for more such retreats – their diabolical stance in the diff. approach of -your terrorism & our terrorism is enough reason for us not to take such foolhardy steps.
Our restrain after 26/11 & innumerable proxy attacks & instigations by the Pakistani’s should suffice as proof enough of India’s genuinity of being a defensive & peaceful nation.

Sanjeev

“Can you really draw lines between the groups?”

— Not in the theoretical sense, but it’s very much obvious that they’re the Pakistani blue-eyed boys & the Americans are looking the other way cause it suits them, atleast for the time-being.

Chirkut, Azad, Rajeev,

I approach this problem not as a westerner but purely as a strategic puzzle. What would I do if I were an Indian strategist?

Would a draw-down along the border dramatically increase the threat? Hard to say. Consider that the 26/11 clan came from the sea. And today a lot of LeT’s efforts at coming across are focused on using third countries like Bangladesh or Nepal. We see very little infiltration along the IB. Most of that happens in Kashmir, and there is no argument for a reduction of Indian forces there. There would also be various border security forces along the border to protect it. Generally speaking, the Indian Army does not do border protection on a day-to-day basis. So the idea that the threat of infiltration would increase significantly is misplaced imho.

There is no country that wants to loose citizens to terrorism. And as someone who still has family in the region and worries for their safety, I understand this concern. However, the goal of governments should be long term solutions not short-term sterility. India has dealt the same way with Pakistan for 60 years now with very little to show for it.

If you read the author’s idea, the plan is directed not at necessarily finding accomodation with Pakistan but at reducing Pakistan’s international diplomatic space. There is a lot of merit to this idea. At present, although the West may not address all of India’s concerns the way India would like them dealt with, there is a remarkable amount of sympathy for the Indian viewpoint. The way CNN covered the Mumbai attacks, they made it look like London or New York was being targeted. There was no such coverage for the Marriott bombing in Is’bad….simply because these days terrorism in Pakistan is seen as par for the course. So it makes sense, I would think, for India to press its advantage with the international community. That’s exactly what I would do if were Indian. Work to erode the credibility of Pakistan’s claims. I am sure if you spoke to Narainan, that’s exactly the kind of strategy the wily old cat would suggest (that man is simply a desi Kissinger – just brilliant).

The other prong of such a strategy is already underway: global integration. Make India indispensable to the global market. The more India trades with the world and the more foreigners live and work in India, the less tolerance the world will have for attacks on India. Again, Mumbai was a great example of this. The increased foreign presence means that inevitably foreign nationals and foreign interests will be targeted. Global integration means that when India loses the world loses. India’s interests become global interests.

Hearing what I heard, I would even argue there was so much sympathy for India, that had Singh chosen to respond to the attacks, even though it would have been inconvenient for the west, there would have been some understanding for India’s need to respond. That kind of sympathy can only be built upon by further deft diplomacy by India. This means using the right mix of forces along the border. Bolster the BSF, local police forces, etc. along the IB and pull back the strike corps (don’t tell me that tanks and APCs patrol the border – they don’t). Then Pakistan would be compelled to do the same. Either it would re-dedicate those towards the Taliban (helping the world and the region out) or it wouldn’t (in which case it would get chastised for not doing enough – and there’s very little patience in Washington for this type of behaviour from Pakistan). Either way India would win in that scenario: a long term security gain (no Taliban to harbour anti-India groups…it’s only a matter of time before LeT starts operating out of Swat et al.) or a significant diplomatic gain (increase US and western pressure on Pakistan).

The only risk for India from re-deploying its forces would be a slower response time in the face of a Pakistani military intrusion. Yet, it’s notable that Kargil only happened in Kashmir where India had its densest distribution of military forces. I would argue that it would be diplomatically impossible for Pakistan to launch an incursion across the IB. And if they did, although slow to get going, India’s forces are more than adequately equipped to repulse such an attack. So yes, some increased risk, for a lot of potential rewards.

Keith writes: “The more India trades with the world and the more foreigners live and work in India, the less tolerance the world will have for attacks on India. Again, Mumbai was a great example of this.”

There is another side to this. The more foreigners work in India, the easier it is to arm twist India into submission. In 2002, after the attack on the Indian Parliament, India was piling up its troops for a war with Pakistan. The US found its objectives in jeopardy. Diplomatic efforts to convince India did not work. Indians argued that for 9/11, the US went to war right away and how come India was being told to show restraint when its very foundation of democracy, the Parliament was attacked boldly. The US could not argue on that point, but their efforts were in jeopardy. They knew that if India went to war with Pakistan, Musharraf had no hesitation in using his nukes.

So the US and its Western allies did another trick. Suddenly the State department and foreign affairs departments in Western countries (US, UK, Australia, NZ, Canada etc) issued directives to their citizens in India to leave. And they began to leave. Guess what happened? India submitted.

When Mumbai attacks happened, India’s cricket was shut down. Cricket in India is big business. Their professional cricket league had to be shifted to South Africa for security reasons. No foreign player was willing to risk his life for the money being offered.

Pakistan’s response to the Mumbai attacks showed their attitude and sincerity towards resolving terrorist issues directed at India.

Our experience with the US and its allies is very different. We do not find them trust worthy. They do what suits their needs the best. If India pulls its troops out from Kashmir, and Pakistan does something else, the US is going to blackmail India to stay put or face the consequences on economic terms. And its allies will follow suit. Kashmir problem has persisted for 20 odd years because of Western acknowledgment to Pakistan’s activities there because it was a strategic ally.

The problem is that of trust. And neither Pakistan or its Western sponsors have demonstrated trust that India can rely on.

Whatever my opinion is, the Indian government does not take orders from me or anyone else. They might still do what they think is the best. I just offered my opinion.

Sanjiv,

You ask, can there be a distinction between the Taliban and the LeT? I’d say, ‘Yes’!

The difference lies in the agenda. The Taliban, with Pashtuns in its cadre, is a local phenomena which exists in the bad lands of FATA and NWFP. However, the Punjabi terrorist groups – LeT, JuD, HuM – hope of annexing Kashmir, dismantling India and spreading radical Islam in South Asia. The PA is sympathetic towards LeT’s cause and supports them.

In the short-run, the Taliban and the Punjabi terrorist groups may have collaborated but it does not imply that attacking the Taliban equals dismantling the likes of LeT.

The elites in Lahore & Islamabad have always seen the Pashtuns as backward and as ‘the other’. Fighting the Taliban with full force is easier for the Pak army than taking on their own, the Punjabi terrorist groups like the LeT. Taking on the Taliban also pays more in US dollars.

India is weary of Pakistan’s phony distinction between the good and the bad mujahadins. The governments in the West know this but they choose to be silent. The governments of NATO nations have their troops to protect and their electorates to please.

Mauryan,

I agree to all your premises but not on your results.
India’s integration in world economy works both ways. It depends how we are going to use it. We cannot blame others to weakness in our leadership.

We have power to influence GoI. No matter how absolute majority MMS has in house, he is still accountable to us.

Keith,

Missed one of your point.
What India should do? What it has done in Sri Lanka and Nepal. Stay out of the internal mess and help in rebuilding later on.

Chirkut writes: “India’s integration in world economy works both ways. It depends how we are going to use it. We cannot blame others to weakness in our leadership.”

In 2002, BJP was in power and they had to submit to the Western wishes. We are calling the Congress as a weak government and the BJP as the belligerent one. The BJP was hoping that they’d return to power this time due to the mild reaction from Congress for the attacks. However, BJP also had to play by Western rules when they were in power. So it does not matter who in charge, geo-politics is a difficult game. I’d say both governments, the BJP and the Congress, had/have reasonably strong leadership with maturity. They had Vajpayee and Congress has MMS.

World economy is down right now. India is the one that is going to have to chase the Western nations for business now and they themselves are in doldrums. In this situation, what they dictate will need to be followed, to gain business. India might have to turn a blind eye to the racial attacks in Australia now with just some warnings and condemnations. Business can be cruel sometimes.

“We have power to influence GoI. No matter how absolute majority MMS has in house, he is still accountable to us.”

Our power can be exercised in two ways – by protest marches or by votes. We are are all arm chair critics and none of us would march on the streets. As far votes, it hardly has a dent on what the government policies should be.

The Kashmir problem has lingered on for so long because India never got the support it deserves from the same Western powers. Their media can completely black wash everything and change public opinion if they wish. And there are arms sales that these countries rely on. A conflict that does not affect them, but keeps their military industries busy is something they desire. So that is another reason why they have turned a blind eye to Pakistan’s activities in Kashmir and elsewhere in India. India really cannot trust their ulterior motives. I remember in the 1980s with Rajeev Gandhi as the PM when the UK arm twisted the Indian government to buy their helicopters (Westland?) against a much better set of Dauphins. Otherwise they were going to intensify their support for Pakistan. Countries like France supply weapons to both India and Pakistan and mint money. And the US is not far behind either. So India must be very careful in its analysis of the situation before making any decision.

If India reduces its troops in Kashmir and LeT is let loose, Pakistan can simply wash them away as non state actors or paint them as genuine Kashmiri fighters. Musharraf openly lied that no Pakistani soldier was involved in Kargil. And Pakistan has its own agenda. They can mobilize their insurgents and do another Kargil, just to deflect the internal war away from the center. Though the US claims to have many “experts”, many are ignorant and have their own inherent bias which they consider as neutral stand point.

Whatever happens will happen. To control the situation inside Pakistan, they want everyone else to bend over. India has nothing to do with Pakistan’s internal conflict or Afghanistan problem. But it is told to reduce its troops to facilitate something for Pakistan. The question is, will Pakistan do something like this if the roles were reversed? Indians wonder why Pakistan gets such excessive pampering for all its abuses.

I strongly feel that India should reduce troops or increase it, based on its own priorities and not for someone else’ war issues. When India needed the Western powers for support, not one of them came forward to help us. Mumbai attacks got so much attention in CNN because Americans and Westerners, Jews were in the middle of the attack. If the attackers had taken a city where no Westerner was involved, it will get a passing mention in the 7th page. As I see it, nothing has changed in the perspectives and analysis of the Western powers. From an Indian stand point, we have to see what is in it for us. We really need things in writing from these countries before we agree to anything.

Nikhil writes: “Some people are fearing another Kargil-style attack if India draws down its troops. Guys, that is not going to happen. The PA may be crazy but not foolish to risk economic, political and diplomatic isolation if it indulges in any misadventure on the LoC.”

Remember the time before Mumbai. Kashmir had become very quiet. There were even articles in Indian magazines about cutting down troops there as peace was returning. Life had become peaceful. Zardari even said, “There is an Indian inside every Pakistani.” Everything looked positive. Pakistani singers were competing in Indian music competitions. A Pakistani boy had his heart surgery done successfully in India. IPL 2 was going to happen.

Then suddenly Mumbai attacks happened and everything changed rapidly. And the Pakistani establishment and its people were initially embarrassed about the event. Then they tried hard to cover it up. But at the end, it was too obvious. But then, nothing has gone forward after that. So let us not assume that there will be no surprises like Kargil. We trusted the Chinese before we got mauled by them in 1962.

Military establishments learn from trials and tests. They come up with strategies on how past mistakes could be corrected this time. I have seen Pakistani posters here say that Kargil plan was drafted long ago and it was gathering dust. And Musharraf executed it and they said it was a very good plan.

Every action done by Pakistan over the years have only built our mistrust over them. Still, we are asked to bend our backs. They are not asked to move an inch. In 1948 UN resolution, it clearly says that Pakistan has to remove all of its military before the resolution could take effect. Now 61 years have gone and they are still sitting there. May be we could ask for the following and if Pakistan commits to them, we can pull our troops back:

1. Make another bilateral treaty that negates all the previous resolutions on Kashmir.

2. Withdraw all Pakistani troops from Azad Kashmir under international supervision and replace them with UN troops.

3. Withdraw all Indian troops from J & K and replace them with international troops.

4. Clear out all terrorist training camps from Kashmir.

5. Arrest all LeT and other insurgent leaders who have criminal cases pending in India and hand them over to either the UN or India. Have them punished. Pakistan, as a goodwill gesture, should complete the Mumbai case and hand over Dawood Ibrahim. If there is no extradition treaty, then hand him over to the US or UK where a case on behalf of India can be filed.

6. Build roads, railroad tracks etc that link all important towns inside Kashmir.

7. Allow for a rule by the UN or a sponsored nation (UK or Switzerland or Australia etc) for about a year. Hold a plebiscite. Let the Kashmiris vote and decide what they want to do. It will satisfy every party.

8. If they cannot trust either the Pakistanis or the Indians, let there be a long term presence of international military there.

Everyone will be happy. Pakistan can go back to fighting the Taliban. Then there must be a guarantee from the US and its allies that Pakistan will meet all its commitments to India sincerely and should be verifiable. I think this is a better plan than even troop reduction. In today’s situation, Kashmir will get a peaceful resolution and Indian troops can return home and focus on other critical areas.

I agree with many of you that India should seek some security guarantees from the US when it makes this offer. It would be a good way to really pressure the US on Pakistan while simultaneously appearing rather magnanimous.

@Sanjeev,

I am curious to see what Bloggers think.

If India does take a gamble and Pakistan attempts another Kargil, perhaps another pre-planned misadventure, man years in the planning, how should India respond?

Should India just sit down and keep showing a tempered response, or should it retaliate, if so, how severely?

Do Pakitani’s expect India to take more unprovoked attacks lying down, without any consequence?

I am curious to hear what both Paks and Indian’s think?

What iron clad security guarantees should India expect from Pakistan and the U.S.

Legally speaking, should there be bonafied consequences against Pakistan, if it tries another Kargil, or should India stay the course and keep taking shots to the chin and remain passive?

Let’s hear it?

Manish,

In India, there is unanimity among political parties to resolve the Indo-Pak border dispute. The problem lies in the lack of capacity of Pakistani state to honor commitments it makes in the peace agreements. Pakistan’s vicious politics has been an obstacle in the progress of Indo-Pak peace process for the last decade.

The US/NATO is spread thin and its patience is running out. The big powers will court and coax India to reach some agreement with Pakistan. For India, there are no easy choices. India should demand some security guarantees from US/NATO in case Pakistan defaults on its commitments like that in the past.

—In Short, any military position compromise shall be viewed as a diplomatic failure.

Keith
“If you read the author’s idea, the plan is directed not at necessarily finding accomodation with Pakistan but at reducing Pakistan’s international diplomatic space.”

-we know it, Pakistanis ar enot stupid, we have the smartest and sharpest of our diplomats in western capitals. We know how to deal with coercive diplomacy, we have mastered the art of avoiding diplomatic isolation, Pakistan has weathered many storms, the Kargil war, the 2001-02 border standoff, the Mumbai 26/11 after math.

So try reducing Pakistan’s international diplomatic space, but remember there are some Pakistanis smart enough to counter that.

For those who think, India will pull back forces from Pakistan border. In return, Pakistan will have no excuse in devoting more military resources against Taliban along the Afghan border. Thus international pressure will increase on Pakistan.

Well, take this: ISI activates its sleeper cells inside India. Terrorists strikes take place in India which are blamed on Pakistan, back to square one, Indian Army back to the border, Taliban issue again at the backfoot and Indo-Pak tension at the forefront. Pakistan has many options while dealing with India, while India doesnt have that much of a choice.

New Delhi sees Pakistan as a strategic partner
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn -content-library/dawn/news/world/16-indi a-sees-pakistan-as-strategic-partner-hs- 09

Umair,

All you are saying is Pakistan will not change no matter what any country does to improve relations with it.

Please do not belabor in writing the same points over and over again. No one cares how good or bad Pakistani diplomats are or how efficient is the ISI or how brave the PA has become after a shot of jihad. Your posturing serves no purpose of reaching a border settlement. If there was a vote in India to geographically relocate Pakistan to some other part of the world everyone will vote for an unanimous yes.

Umair vomits non-sensical, illogical, one-sided propaganda once more:

“Anyone suggesting Pakistan should extradite criminals and fugitives, the likes of Dawood Ibrahim to India must remember there no extradition treaty between the country. The law and constitution doesnt allow that, Pakistan is under no international obligation to extradite any fugitives to India.
However, yes Pakistan is a member of Interpol just like India. What India can do is approach the interpol and work with them to extradite any criminals in Pakistan wanted by india.”

–>Pakistan’s military continues to hide behind anything it can. If there is no extradition treaty, draft one and propose it to India, India will gladly accept Daewood Ibrahim and his lads. Feel free as a good gesture to admit they are in Pakistan and roaming free to operate. The world knows Pakistan is complicit with terrorism and criminals. Please quit hiding behind interpol.

“Secondly, all this accusation of Pakistan sponsoring terrorism and harboring terrorist infrastructure is just YOUR BS propaganda Sanjeev.”

–>Musharaff himself admitting sponsoring, supporting and training Jihadist Mujahideen Proxy Armies to stoke agitation and violence in India. You can goto Youtube and you will see clips of the Pakistani Army Soldiers standing hand in claw with Militants Cheering “Death to India”.

Even little pakistani children are shouting at the top of their lungs: “Lakh-Kharodh Hindu Mahroh”….translated as “kill hundreds and thousands and millions of Hindus!”, all while Pakitani soldiers look on and smile. There is proof of institutionalized racisim and support of terrorism against India, by the State itself, it is on Youtube and has been there for a long time.

“By the way, I hope you remember there are some wounds in Pakistan bleeding since 1971.
There fore, Mr. Sanjeev dont cry too much for Mumbai 26/11.”

Pakistan started the 1971 misadventure. In 1971 the Awami League of East Pakistan declaired a political victory in their election and voted to be independent from East Pakistan. A rebellious major in the Pakistani army, declared the independence of Bangladesh on behalf of Mujibur. As the punjabi Fauji’s started their genocide to exert dominance and control over East Pakistan, India opened its borders to the millions of refugess, while Pakistan was systematically genociding Hindus and Muslims, who did not want to be a part of West Pakistan, so Indira Gandhi opened the border, it was the human thing to do. The Pakistan army conducted widespread atrocities against the civilian population of East Pakistan.

The 1971 War was officially started by Pakistan first, on the evening of Sunday, 3 December, the Pakistani air force launched sorties on eight airfields in north-western India, including Agra which was 300 miles (480 km) from the border, it was called operation Chengiz Khan.

India reacted by declaring war on Pakistan.Indian forces responded with a massive coordinated air, sea, and land assault.

Indian Air Force started flying sorties against Pakistan from midnight and quickly achieved air superiority. The main Indian Objective on the Western front was to prevent Pakistan from entering Indian soil. There was no Indian intention of conducting an offensive into West Pakistan, although Pakistan originally intended to conduct an offensive deep into Northern India.

In the end, Indian naval, air and ground superiority forced Pakistan to surrender on Dec. 16, 1971.

With tears in his eyes, Lt. Gen A. A. K. Niazi of Pakistan signs the instrument of surrender on December 16, surrendering his forces to Lt. Gen Jagjit Singh Aurora of Indian army.

Umair, please refer to:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Pakist ani_War_of_1971

As a strange twist of fate, in fact, both men knew each other a cadets in the British Army.

Pakistan had no moral authority, it genocided millions and had to surrender. Had Pakistan let East Pakistan, peacefully become independent, without the bloody slaughter of innocent millions, India would not have gone to war with Pakistan.

India helped liberate East Pakistan from the oppressive and genocidal regime of West Pakistan. Somebody had to the Chinese had no moral core to do such a thing.

Umair, in the future, when you mention 1971, please let it echo in your hollow skull, the true facts and nature of who started the war and who surrendered and why.

Sanjeevan,

Thank you for posting that question should India take a gamble?

May I shed some more information I would like to share with the blog, it seems that Pakistan is still in the business of making more nuclear bombs, please refer to article on the following link:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/17  /pakistan-may-be-diverting_n_204459.htm l

Yes, it appears that billions of USD are still being used to make nuclear bombs as a future gift to the people of India. Your question takes on a new twist, perhaps your question needs to be rephrased as:

“Which country, if any, would be willing to take a gamble on Pakistan, given that it is still making nxclxxr bxxbs?”

I want to know what other people here think about Pakistan continuing to make nuclear bombs, given that it keeps asking for money to fight terrorism.

The world is left confused and feeling lied to and cheated.

How can peace ever be possible with such a dishonest country?

Sanjeev,

It appears you are asking India to take a gamble on a country, which is parasitically mining the blood of it citizens and mining the blood of American Taxpayers to make nxclxxr bxxbs for itself, while its own people starve.

Given the Pakistani’s army’s history with genocides and starting wars with India, losing all of them, what do you other think, should India take a chance with someone who keeps making nukes with American tax payer money?

“Should Pakistan be trusted”?

Should be the name of your Questioned Post.

Umair the Pakistani

“..all this accusation of Pakistan sponsoring terrorism and harboring terrorist infrastructure is just YOUR BS propaganda Sanjeev.”
…then…
“Well, take this: ISI activates its sleeper cells inside India. Terrorists strikes take place in India which are blamed on Pakistan,..”

Anup
You would be stupid to think RAW doesnt have its sleeper cells in Pakistan.

Mauryan
India dismembered Pakistan in 1971, we can probably tolerate everything by India but if India plays with Pakistan’s territorial integrity this time, Pakistan will carry out a nuclear strike on India. There is zero tolerance on territorial integrity and sovereignty of Pakistan.

In the hot seat.

India Today

India has made a proposal to Pakistan but behind this fresh proposal lies a pressure-deflecting tactic. While the country wants Islamabad to take visible steps on dismantling terror infrastructure, it has also demonstrated to its Western interlocutors that India is not being inflexible as it has made a new offer to Pakistan. This is a deft move by New Delhi as in the coming days, the pressure to begin a dialogue process with Pakistan is only going to mount.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/election200 9/index.php?option=com_content&task=view &id=44199&sectionid=36&Itemid=1&issueid= 108

Umair,

Your nuclear threats sound stale. Every time you find yourself cornered, you try to chest thump with nuclear bomb threat. India is not planning to dismember Pakistan. It might happen without any external push. Your country is standing on top of a fragile sheet that can collapse if those in power in your country share your mindset.

Your country’s arrogant attitude led to the separation of East Pakistan. Bengalis were looked at as weak, effeminate and Hindu influenced second class citizens who could not be accepted as equals. India only capitalized it. One part less on the Eastern front was better suited to India’s strategic interests. And I support that tactical move. Now India can deal with one country on its West side. So to me, the thoughts of 1971 are returning. May be a small set of independent nations on the Western side would be strategically a good thing for my country as well. However, I don’t think India has to do anything. As I see it, it is happening by itself.
No matter how much you can deny it, there is a high potential for it now. It may not happen, but I am not going to become unhappy if it does not happen. But it would make me happy, if your country becomes smaller nations. Sorry if it hurts your feelings.

I never wished for support from UK or China. UK created Pakistan to rub salt on Gandhi and Nehru. Jinnah was their puppet. Why do you think Mount Batten stopped the Kashmir conflict abruptly? And there were British generals on both sides fighting against each other! That makes no sense. Pakistan’s creation, Kashmir conflict etc are Britain’s long term strategic plans in the region to prevent India from ever emerging as a power. However, India has managed to wriggle out of that plan. So UK is doing everything to show its irritation. I do not know that there is a passionate dislike towards India in UK, Canada, Australia and the Republicans in the US. Look at the racial attacks on Indian students in Australia now.

Anyway, I can only reflect views from Indian perspective and I do not blame you for your perspectives. And my view is that your country has become a puppet at the hands of the Western powers.

Congratulations to your military for reclaiming Swat. The only thing is, it will have to do this many times in the future. This is not the end. It is only the beginning of the end. The end of Pakistan as we know of it. The nice thing is, India will have nothing to do with it. Sorry, if my words hurt.

For those who think, India will pull back forces from Pakistan border. In return, Pakistan will have no excuse in devoting more military resources against Taliban along the Afghan border. Thus international pressure will increase on Pakistan.

Well, take this: ISI activates its sleeper cells inside India. Terrorists strikes take place in India which are blamed on Pakistan, back to square one, Indian Army back to the border, Taliban issue again at the backfoot and Indo-Pak tension at the forefront. Pakistan has many options while dealing with India, while India doesnt have that much of a choice.
- Posted by Umair

That might work a few times (Kabul embassy bombing, Mumbai attacks, etc.) but the world is running out of patience. NATO has already begun building alternative supply routes. And a large part of the US troop increase is simply because they want to push right out to the Durand line (they don’t trust the PA to keep its end of the bargain).

Keep in mind this war like all wars will end some day. And then the tolerance for these kinds of activities will be even less. Don’t forget that Clinton came damn close to declaring Pakistan a state sponsor of terrorism. And if there was no Afghan war on, it’s quite realistic to assume that such a designation would well have come after the Mumbai attacks where American citizens were killed by Pakistani terrorists (it does not matter if they were sanctioned by the state or not). When this war ends, and Pakistan matters less to not just the US but the world, such activities and bluster will result in Pakistan ranking right up there with North Korea.

Lastly, keep in mind that if NATO loses in Afgahnistan, the US won’t just walk away with its tail between its legs. A whole generation of US politicians will have come of age learning that Pakistan (their ostensible ally) worked to undermine US efforts in Afghanistan while India (a foe in a previous era) worked hard to help the west out in Afghanistan. What do you think will result out of making an enemy of the US while squandering the good will of the rest of the Western world?

I am hopeful that Pakistani leaders understand this and start the slow and painful process of turning the ship around before it smashes on the rocks. At this point, it’s not about what happens in Afghanistan. It’s about what comes next.

—Debating ‘war strategies’ of if’s & but’s is kinda stupid on our part, further if it’s not the IA that’s patrolling the borders, but the BSF, then more the reason -why bend backwards(how does a few km’s in or out matters)…
- Posted by anup

Were a treaty to be concluded, it’s not just global good will (which should not be undervalued) but also strategic warning time that would be gained by both India and Pakistan. For example, let’s say the treaty stated that there was to be no armour within 100km of the border. If India’s intelligence learns that Pakistani armour is moving to the border they would have at least 1 full day to mobilize. Strategic warning is a valuable commodity for any field commander.

Aside from that, by simply offering the treaty India has a lot to gain. You could in theory tailor it so that Pakistan would refuse. For example, if India offered to move all its armour 200 km inland. For India, that’s not a big deal. For Pakistan, 200 km is huge. They would say no, of course and come of looking like the belligerent ones. I think that’s one of the points the authors were trying to make which might have been missed by some of us readers.

Keith
We know very well, Pakistan was betrayed last time when the Soveits left Afghanistan it was then when US left the mess and downgraded Pakistan’s strategic importance.
Pakistani intelligence now keeps close links with Taliban and has its strategic meetings with them.Why? because one day US will leave the region. Pakistan is making the west/US/NATo pay a higher price for cooperation this time. And that is the way it should be, Pakistan will not let itself be used and dumped later. And believe me, a nuclear armed muslim nuclear power, a strategic Pakistan rapidly expanding and upgrading its nuclear programme by making plutonium based nuclear weapons, Pakistan is too important a country in the regon for the US. Is the US willing to make an enemy out of the only muslim nuclear power around the world. Does the US really knows where are all of Pakistan’s nuclear weapons? Does the US feel confident enough to face Pakistani Military sitting on a nuclear stockpile of weapons?
Come on Keith, I know you will tell me you guys have superb technology , that you will send in an MQ-9 Reaper predator and track me down, that the US can bomb and flatten Pakistan within minutes. Ask the Indians, they are having an hard time for long, they will teach you a thing or two about Pakistan. Thankfully we also have our scientists working round the clock on deadly and lethal technologies and creating weapons of mass destruction. Now ofcourse, we are not insane and bloodthirsty hounds. We want to live with honor and dignity and peace thats all, and if someone mess with us, we know how to strike terror in the heart of enemies. Dont take me wrong Keith, I am against killing of innocent people. I mean only to fight back in case war is imposed.

Cheers and Thanks, dont leave Pakistan alone this time, we were betrayed last time too. We are playing the frontline state yet again, the war on terror might be going on at many fronts, but it will be won or lost in Pakistan ultimately. Lets hope we win and finish the terrorist who create mayhem on a daily basis. And while you think India is your greatest friend, dont forget you have a stake in Pakistan too. I hope you make the right choices this time, because i dont want you to complain and accuse ISI have playing double game. Because ISI is very notorious, if someone plays double games with Pakistan, the ISI starts playing double game with them.

Amir Ali
“A return to the Kashmir Jihad is preferable, as it kept the Indians bogged down in Kashmir and the dispute alive internationally.”

I agree with you, lets hope veterans of ISI’s Kashmir wing are called back to re-start the good work they had been doing. We really need to pull our socks. The Indians are getting too casual and loosing respect of Pakistan’s territorial integrity. Once confronted with the possibility of loosing control of Kashmir, they will care much less to dismember Pakistan. For us remaining pro-active and employing a policy of preemption is the only way ahead.

Aussies are now targeting Indians in the virtual world with hate blogs after reports of racial attacks against Indian students.

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/index.php?o ption=com_magazine&opt=section&ptype=vid eo&videoid=44542&sectionid=86&secid=0

well done Australia, Pakistan supports you. This is what the Indians deserve.

Umair says:

“Amir Ali
“A return to the Kashmir Jihad is preferable, as it kept the Indians bogged down in Kashmir and the dispute alive internationally.”

I agree with you, lets hope veterans of ISI’s Kashmir wing are called back to re-start the good work they had been doing. We really need to pull our socks. The Indians are getting too casual and loosing respect of Pakistan’s territorial integrity. Once confronted with the possibility of loosing control of Kashmir, they will care much less to dismember Pakistan. For us remaining pro-active and employing a policy of preemption is the only way ahead.”

–> It is apparently clear then, Pakistan’s military elite want to continue to foment more trouble in Kashmir and proliferate militantism and terrorism against India.

Let me ask you Umair, do you feel that India has a right to defend its territorial integrity against Pakistan, or should India just fold and “do nothing”.

I am curious to see what you sense of fairness is towards your Indian blood ancestors.

Just remember Umair, the militants do not like your military kind, as you said before, you have just escaped bxmbings by minutes, I think you are going to see Urban Carnage In Pakistan in the coming future it is tough to pinpoint a timeline, but muslims will be killing muslims in a religio-political war.

The military types will be in their cross-hairs and they don’t care about their own lives.

Pakistan is on the verge of unhinging. Get some good security for yourself. The militants don’t care that you are a muslim, but they hate you and your kind and what you represent.

Your police and military will be unable and incapable of stopping them, once they start the carnage in your cities. The militants will cause the dimemberment of Pakistan as the urban insurgencies and sleeper cells awake.

India will only be an observer. Pakistan will collapse and disintegrate, without India even firing one bullet, it has already started. The ethnic separation and hatred against the Punjabis in pakistan runs too deep.

Are the Fauji’s willing to confront Punjabi militants?

No? that is when the heart of Pakistan has truly begun to fall, is when Punjab is overrun by the guys with beards, better grow one, buddy, you might be able to bargain better for your own welfare.

@Umair,

Your territorial integrity and sovereignty is already under attack by militants. You need not worry about India, India is a fictitious war, only in your mind and in your historical propaganda books.

Feel free to nxke them (the militants), as you said you would nxke India. The Truth is that your army is incapable of engaging the militants in an urban insurgency. As your army loses ground in the cities, your Fauji’s on the eastern border with India remain locked for a cold-start war.

This will be the failure and where pakistan will ascede ground to foreign militants in the cities. It will be too late eventually for Pakistan. Old hatreds against India will not help it maintain territorial integrity.

Have a nice day.

Umair says:

“Sanjeev Miglani

I am still waiting if you have the moral courage to admit India did mess up a little in 1971 by intervening in East Pakistan political crisis.
- Posted by Umair ”

In 1971, India did the right thing by opening its borders up to Bengali refugees who were being genocided at the hands of West Pakistan, 3 MILLION, in fact. They were fleeing persecution and death from Pakistan, hindus and muslims alike.

India did the moral thing in 1971 by engaging Pakistan and saving millions of more hindus and muslims from further genocide by the Pakistani Army, who engaged in systematic elimination of Teachers, Doctors, Engineers, Lawyers and any educated people and in fact they were murdered at point blank and shot in the head, murdered in cold blood. See link:

http://www.gendercide.org/case_banglades h.html

Pakistan is unrepentant of its past and will continue to repeat its mistakes by starting wars on others.

Everybody should commemorate 1971 as the “Bengali Holocaust” and Bengali Liberation from the then West Pakistani Tyrants.

1971 – Three Million Humans Genocided by Pakistan

End of story. Let history be the true judge.

Umair,

Pakistan is unrepentant for the Bengali holocaust and so are you.

Please just go away. You have no righteous or moral claim of any kind.

Spend your energies taking advice from the west and india on how to fight militants.

Global watcher:
“It seems the truth hurts and you would rather avoid it and hurl insults at Sanjeev.”

I dont think i hurled insults at Sanjeev Miglani, all I am stating is Sanjeev Miglani should not show bias. Why does he seem to be so insensitive to Pakistanis. He mentioned Mumbai 26/11 attacks and that Indians are not in good mood. I am only telling Sanjeev Miglani to understand there is bad blood between the two countries. India also did things in the past that makes us hate India.

Let it be a challenge to Sanjeev, just state one line which should be something similar to :”yes, India also is responsible for behavior in the past that made Pakistanis distrustful of India”.

Umair writes: “I am still waiting if you have the moral courage to admit India did mess up a little in 1971 by intervening in East Pakistan political crisis.”

Umair,

Even without India’s interference, Bangladesh would have happened. Just like now, Pakistani military ran out of options. Bengalis completely turned against their West Pakistani brothers. Your military, in order to deflect an internal strife, would have attacked India anyway and India would have retaliated.

Pakistanis have no moral right to question India’s moral right in East Pakistan. Right from 1948, Pakistan has been intruding into Indian territory using proxy elements and trying to disrupt normalcy. So Pakistan was already doing to India, what India decided to do to Pakistan. And I support India’s tactical move in East Pakistan. If we had not done that in 1971, by now Pakistan would have staged operations from East Pakistan and with China’s help, dismembered North Eastern India. This is what we saw coming. So we had to act pre-emptively, when the opportunity presented itself.

And I believe now, based on your comments and the general comments and articles that I read in some of Pakistani magazines like Pak Tribune, from an Indian stand point, Pakistan is better off split into smaller nations. Your military has damaged your country and your minds tremendously. And there is only one possible course for this attitude that you and similar Pakistanis exhibit. But this is not an immediate thing to worry about. If Pakistan did things right from here on, there is a chance to recover and become a healthy nation. But the choice is yours. If you still believe in engaging India ad infinitum, your fragile economy will collapse. Without money, it would be hard to control the internal strife. Your country is being watched by every power in the world carefully now.

At least, as people, try to become responsible. Only then your military’s attitude and control can be changed for the good. Otherwise, no matter how much you list your military’s arsenal, they might have to nuke their own people if things get out of control. The enemy is within and not outside. And anyone can capitalize on your situation. And do not think the US will not.

Keith, may be you can tell now how India is supposed to trust the Pakistani establishment and reduce its troops in Kashmir. You can see how Pakistani pride has turned into intractable hate towards India. It should not be surprising to see our reaction. But it is not hatred for sure.

Umair,

You would not have asked for moral courage from Sanjiv if you knew the turn of events that went from 1947 through 1971 in East Pakistan, aka Banladesh. It’s a pity that your knowledge is limited to what is written on the blogs and what is printed in irresponsible Pakistan media.

Besides, how is Bangladesh related to solving the border dispute in Kashmir?