Finding space for progress between India and Pakistan

July 4, 2009

With the foreign secretaries of India and Pakistan likely to meet on the sidelines of a summit in Egypt this month, to be followed up by talks between the two countries’ leaders, newspapers on both sides of the border are exploring the space for progress in a peace process broken off by New Delhi after last November’s attacks on Mumbai.

The Hindu says that officials in both New Delhi and Islamabad are working to prepare the ground for the meetings – expected to take place on the sidelines of a summit of the Non-Aligned Movement in Sharm el-Sheikh – so that at least some progress can be made. 

“Having scaled back its initial demands for the dismantling of terrorist infrastructure as a precondition for the resumption of dialogue, India now wants evidence of Pakistan’s professed commitment to stop terrorists from staging cross-border strikes,” writes Siddharth Varadarajan in the Hindu.

He says India aims to “get Islamabad to recognise that New Delhi is serious about benchmarking the progress made against anti-India terror groups and linking that to the pace and scope of future dialogue. Thus, India would like to receive from Pakistan a detailed account of all the steps its investigative agencies have taken so far to identify and prosecute those involved in the Mumbai conspiracy case. Indian officials say they have heard about some of these steps ‘verbally’ or have seen reports in the press but would like to see things put down on paper.”

Writing in Dawn newspaper, Indian journalist Kuldip Nayar says a tentative agreement on Kashmir drawn up under former president Pervez Musharraf could be retrieved and pursued.

“New Delhi realises more than Islamabad that normalcy is not even thinkable without having Kashmir out of the way,” he writes. ”But that requires a proper atmosphere in India and it cannot be created without bringing the perpetrators of the Mumbai attack to justice.”

And he says a solution would be possible only if the Pakistan Army led by General Ashfaq Kayani were willing to support detente with India.  The meetings in Egypt ”can be successful only to the extent that Gen Kayani is willing to go. Can he look at Pakistan’s relations with India without bringing in the past? Normalcy between the two countries depends on that.”

In Pakistan’s Daily Times, Delhi university professor Alok Rai aimsfor an even wider view. He condemns the two-nation theory which gave birth to India and Pakistan as being at the root of a “mutually destructive cycle” between the two countries. Usually ascribed to Pakistan founder Mohammed Ali Jinnah,  Rai acknowledges that the two-nation theory was first propounded by Hindu nationalist Savarkar. 

But he adds, that “this rejection of the two-nation theory is entirely consistent in my mind with accepting the present reality of two independent, sovereign states, India and Pakistan, which should have mature relations.”

Basing his column on an e-mail exchange with an unnamed Pakistani friend, he says that the two countries must put their dispute over Kashmir behind them, a dispute that he sees as pretext for a much bigger struggle for legitimacy by Pakistan, even if this means that Islamabad must relinquish its commitment to “free” Kashmir from Indian rule.

“But my Pakistani interlocutor assures me that it is the hour before dawn that is the darkest, that the present generation, even in Punjab, is ready to move out of this mutually destructive cycle and start a new chapter in the sad history of our sub-continent. I am writing this in the hope that he is right and I am wrong. Happy to be wrong.”

Do read the articles in full because they are full of ideas that cannot easily be summarised. What does appear to be clear is that after the bitterness created by Mumbai, the journalists quoted above are looking for a way forward, whether in seeking a practical, short-term approach to talks between India and Pakistan, or seeking an accommodation with history.

Finally, a must read is this op-ed in Dawn newspaper, in which Irfan Husain writes about the victims of the Mumbai attacks and calls for an unambiguous rejection of such acts of violence.

“While Muslims argue that Islam does not condone this kind of terrorism against unarmed, innocent civilians, most do not condemn it in clear, unequivocal terms. After agreeing that such acts are un-Islamic, there is all too often a lingering ‘Yes, but…’ hanging in the air,” he writes.

“It is this ambiguity that has given terror groups in Pakistan and elsewhere the space and legitimacy they need to operate. Now that Pakistanis have seen the true face of terrorism in Swat, and have begun to support the government in its drive to rid us of this cancer, the lesson needs to be reinforced … We need to hear ordinary people who survived or lost close relatives, and see their pain. We need to see the horrors inflicted in the name of Islam.

“Above all, we need to share the agony of our neighbours.”

(Reuters photos: The Taj Mahal; the attack on Mumbai; the Marriott in Islamabad)

42 comments

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Hopefully there would be some progress this time as Pakistan itself had felt the pain that it has been inflicting till now on its neighbour. And hope that the military/ISI doesn’t support any covert LeT operation to disrupt the peace talks this time. Anywayz, India has nothing to lose by being at the negotiating table.

Posted by Sunny | Report as abusive

Is it possible to accept the current borders and recognize each other (forgett the past) and work ONLY towards economic development, and prosperity ?One can only hope this is possible. Long way to go if possible.

Perhaps Mr. Alok Rai can be asked to show where Savarkar advances the two nation theory. About the first thing that Mr. Savarkar states is that “Hindusthan must ever remain one and indivisible”. As a matter of fact, Savarkar’s nationalist movement has had great trouble with coming to terms partition, with even MK Gandhi facing the brunt for being unable to prevent partition.http://www.savarkar.org/conten t/pdfs/en/hindu-rashtra-darshan-en-v002. pdf

Posted by Amit | Report as abusive

With the present set up in Pakistan nothing much can be expected as the power is tri-polar, overriding each other every now and then.You need a strong leader in Pakistan to mobilize people and change its foreign policy. With Benazair gone, there is only Nawaz Sharief left who really can establish the writ of the constitution and tweak the policy trends formulated at the behest of army rulers so far.Nawaz is such a big crowd puller and so popular; which he proved just a few months ago. Zardari and Gilani are not as popular as to change the policies according to the wishes and requirements of the people but the army. Both of them are just wasting time of the peoples of both these countries. We have only just to bide time with these two leaders.Pakistan Army must be getting restive these days because Kashmiris could be reconsidering their view towards a failing state! This is apparent from the heightened activity on the LOC these days. There seem to be a desperate effort by the pak army to push more militants into the valley.The bottomline is that the things are not going to improve as long as Zardari and Geelani are there!OFFBEAT:DID ANY BODY KNOW THAT THERE IS A NOBEL PEACE PRIZE AT STAKE HERE IN THIS KASHMIR ISSUE!!!

Posted by Liberal from India | Report as abusive

the fact of the matter is that Kashmir is neither part of Paskistan or India. Both need a hounourable way out. Either side cannot be seen to be a winner or looser.Give Kashmir back to Kashmiris !

Posted by sagir ahmed | Report as abusive

Myra,1. Alok Rai is the product of Nehruvian school, whose ill conceived policies and programmes led to Kashmir disputes, Indo-China conflict, and division of India on the basis of languages and linguist minorities . Blaming Late Savarkar for the 2-nation theory is the creation of polluted mind of Alok Rai.2. Historiclly, hindus have been a weak race , for thousand of years , foreign invaders form Huns to Mughal and Persians , Afghans, Arabs to name few had been invading India , hindus instead of defending their land, had welcomed these invaders with open arms . It would not be be surprising to the world that Indian govt in addition to offer a hand of friendship to Pakistan , might also offer amnesty to the Pakistani terrorists.3. History repeats , and it is now repeating in the form of India’s offer of friendship to Pakistan coupled with principles of” forgive and forget” .4.India might go to the extent of offering MFN status to Pakistan .

Posted by Manish | Report as abusive

I am not hopeful that Pakistan and India can settle on a long term peace agreement. Rulers change and every time the old peace process is derailed by the new rulers. The only way long term peace process can be brought about is by bringing in third party mediation between the two countries. The US or UK or any group of neutral countries must get involved. And Kashmir is a core issue. Kashmiris should be involved all the way through in the peace process. Shimla accord insists on bilateral settlement of any issues between the two countries and we have seen how it has gone over the past 35 years. It is useless and obsolete based on today’s conditions. The only way India will remove its half a million troops from Kashmir is to bring about peace in the region. Pakistan cannot focus on other matters so long as the Indian troops are breathing down our necks. They blame insurgency for their presence in large numbers. But that is ridiculous. You do not need half your military to take on a bunch of free mercenaries. They are there for bleeding Pakistan and to oppress Kashmiri’s will. So let the peace process begin with a third party involvement. Otherwise this game is never going to end. One never knows. Leaders in both countries might want the issue to burn for their own political and power gains. Without third party mediation, this peace talk and plan is an eye wash.

The idea of Pakistan and the idea of India is mutually toxic. The kingdom of Jammu and Kashmir, like Punjab and Bengal province, should be split on the LoC. LoC has been the border since 1947. It’s time to turn in to de jure boundary. Let the borders be porous for trade or travel and with time give autonomy to that region.

Posted by Nikhil | Report as abusive

@ Manish:Mr.manish: you might be having problems with Congress party coming back to power but your comment is out of context here and you need to have some more lessons on nationalism. But likes of you would never accept the fact that your so called nationalist icons were not great opponents of the colonists but equally complicit in keeping this country divided on religious and caste basis. But fortunately your tribe is a minuscule minority in India.@Mohammed Anjum:You are asking for a third party intervention in Kashmir. I think you should solve the problem yourself that you initiated by yourself only. No one had asked you to make an attempt to annex Kashmir. Laugh and the world would laugh with you: Cry and you cry alone!I am not the one who would shoot from the hip. I’ve lived in Kashmir and know the temperament of the society very well. They follow Sufi Islam and hate everything that does not belong to the valley -the language and the culture. I admire their Kashmiriyat which Pakistanis would destroy within a few days. In fact, Pakistani army had been able to dent their culture to some extent by planting some moles and militants among them. But fortunately they do not win elections yet some killings and intimidation of the people. Indian Army’s role is questioned but it is an army controlled by civil authorities and democratic institutions -not a rogue army like yours. So, any atrocity is investigated and culprits brought to justice.In such a given scenario, either Kashmiris are making fools of themselves or Pakistanis are making fool out of their ownself. Reluctance of Obama for mediation should be a clear message to Pakistanis. The best thing for you is to elect a stronger leader like Nawaz Sharief who really would have the people’s mandate to negotiate with India. Until then India understands that its only the Pakistani army’s elite that wants to consolidate itself on the pretext of Kashmir. All this game by your generals, present or past have squeezed you financially and economically at the cost of public money(green back?).

Posted by Liberal from India | Report as abusive

@ Liberal from IndiaWould have been great if you could counter Manish with some sound logic and not pure rhetoric. Go to another post in reuters http://blogs.reuters.com/india/2009/07/0 1/is-rahul-gandhi-prime-minister-materia l/ and try to comment on your nationalist icons after reading my comments from start to end.For your kind information who has lived in Kashmir, Islam is foreign to Kashmir.

Posted by Rohit | Report as abusive

There can never be discussion on Kashmir, as long the Pakistani Army runs and controls proxy armies and holds the balance of power over the people of Pakistan.It is much too dangerous for India to include the Pak. Army in discussions about anything, simply because they are not responsible to anybody, that is why the U.S. is in Pakistan overseeing the turfing of the Taliban.The next mission is for the U.S. to oversee the turfing of all the LeT, JuD, HuM on the Eastern side of Pakistan.It is difficult to find a discussions with a neighbour that is still creating nukes, and using U.S. taxpayer dollars and IMF dollars to make them, while claiming to fighting terrorism.The events in Pakistan emanating from its ISI and PA are so backwards and absurd, I don’t ever see how India will ever have the confidence to feel that Pakistan is coherent and sincere enough about any peaceful discussions.What I find almost as absurd is Western Countries like the U.S. and the UK, taking shots at India about Kashmir, especially the shallow and uninformed Mr. Miliband, who has no understanding of anything.The UK and US should say to Pakistan, “How can you be serious about peace and fighting terrorism, if you still have proxy armies and are still making Nukes, albeit with IMF and U.S. Taxpayer dollars”.Obama, Clinton and Brown should call for an immediate cease to the Pak Nuke program.The Paks build nukes, while their people starve. How laughable.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

Mr. Liberal from India,Kindly do not live in a glass house and throw stones at others. Kashmiris do not love India. That is why your military is sitting there trying to quell any upraising. I am ok with an independent Kashmir, if that is what they prefer. But between India and Pakistan, Kashmiri brothers are naturally inclined towards Pakistan. Look at how they celebrated Pakistan’s victory in Twenty/20 world cup. Most of Pakistan too follows Sufi brand of Islam, just like our Kashmiri brothers. And India forcibly annexed Hyderabad, Goa etc. So do not preach to me. You cannot have one rule for yourself and another one for others. What I see as a Pakistani is that your country has an attitude problem – we are smaller countries and therefore should just put up with everything you do. But you complain about China for doing the same to you. So here is the solution. Settle Kashmir first and everything will work out fine from there. As Pakistanis, for us, Kashmir is an unsettled issue and we have been on the wrong side of justice. This “Pathan pillage in 1947″ is an Indian concocted story to invade Kashmir. All of us Pakistanis are unanimous on that. Your Nehru was obsessed with Kashmir because he is from there. But, being a fair and just country that you are, let us see if you can be fair. We cannot be entirely wrong. So try to understand our perspective and approach the issue without this big country-super power arrogance. We will not bow down to such methods….

Mr. Liberal Indian:”I’ve lived in Kashmir and know the temperament of the society very well.”This does not mean anything. I am a Muslim and can relate to another Muslim better than you. Most of us follow the Sufi brand of Islam too.”They follow Sufi Islam and hate everything that does not belong to the valley -the language and the culture.”So get out of Kashmir. They do not identify with your Indian values, using your own words. When are you guys planning to get out?”I admire their Kashmiriyat which Pakistanis would destroy within a few days.”We are not as bad as you are depicting. We have elements in our country that match the fanatics like Advani, Shiv Sena or RSS. We are people just like you and have a rich culture and tradition. We will not destroy Kashmiriyat. Your military is doing it. Look in the mirror.”In fact, Pakistani army had been able to dent their culture to some extent by planting some moles and militants among them.”And your military is planting trees there? Why do you think Kashmiris are refusing to budge to your curfews and protest openly and boldly against your military occupation?”But fortunately they do not win elections yet some killings and intimidation of the people.”Elections have winners and losers. And they switch roles from election to election. Do not draw conclusions from limited result. One who loses now, can also win sometime in the future. I am surprised you have not realized this, having been a citizen of a “democractic” nation!”Indian Army’s role is questioned but it is an army controlled by civil authorities and democratic institutions -not a rogue army like yours.”Did you know Mr. Liberal Indian, that in Kashmir, your military has no accountability for its actions? They can arrest anyone, torture anyone, kill anyone. No questions whatsoever. And this right has been sanctioned by your glorious civil government. It is your Guantanamo. Get your facts right first before you preach.”So, any atrocity is investigated and culprits brought to justice.”Tell me how many of your soldiers and army personnel have been brought to justice so far for their atrocities in Kashmir. Where is the website where there is a list of justice available to me?Kashmir can relate to Pakistan better than India. We are Muslims (I am referring to the majority) and we have mutual trust and respect towards each other. All this “Pathan invasion in 1948″ is a concocted story to invade Kashmir by Indian troops. You guys invaded Hyderabad and Goa and annexed them by force. Your civil government did the same in Kashmir. No Pakistani is going to believe an Indian version of the story. You tried to muscle your way into Kashmir to show that you are the regional power right from the start. Guess what? You made the mistake of running into Pakistan. And you are paying the price for it. So give up your passion to Kashmir and we will loosen our grip. As simple as that.

Decades of hostility has messed up Indo-Pak relations to the lowest point. A fresh start is needed, specially on the Indian side. It seems a genuine desire for peace has always been missing from Indian side. Pakistan can never think of lowering its guard, for now India is an enemy.The start point should be Kashmir, if there is no progress there, nothing will materialise.Good Luck South Asia.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Mr. Global Watcher: “The Paks build nukes, while their people starve. How laughable.”This shows the unfairness of the Indians. You want everything your way. Remember that others can have their opinions too. India has no right to tell us whether we can have the nukes or not. If India can have the nukes, so can Pakistan. And your country is not floating in rose water. You have more than 400 million people who are starving. Why can’t your country spend its precious money on their welfare instead of building nukes and missiles? Why this double standard? You guys should not be telling us what we should do. We have our reasons and it is no one’s business. I am so glad that we became a nuclear power. Now no one can mess with us. Come to the table for discussions or we will force it.

Umair says:”Decades of hostility has messed up Indo-Pak relations to the lowest point. A fresh start is needed, specially on the Indian side. It seems a genuine desire for peace has always been missing from Indian side. Pakistan can never think of lowering its guard, for now India is an enemy.The start point should be Kashmir, if there is no progress there, nothing will materialise.Good Luck South Asia.”Completely Rubbish and Absurd! Your punjabi’s proloned, pervasive and selective memory is one for the history books, my friend! Thousandds of Hindu Pandits and thousands of Hindus were pushed out, murdered, converted (by the sword or force) and suddenly all of this has become Pakistani land? On top of that, Pakistan preaches peace in the other breath, it preaches death to India, builds nukes with U.S. Taxpayer dollars and IMF Dollars and claims it is fighting terrorism? You guys are the creators and proliferators of terrorism and nuclear technology to oppressive, rogue states, please step back and get your head checked.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

—>Mr.Anjum writes, “And you are paying the price for it”Forget our difference of opinion on Kashmir. The reality is you are paying a much higher price than India. There are articles in Pak media on this literally every day. In this scenario what makes you think Indians will change their minds? I am just curious.—>Mr.Anjum writes, “So give up your passion to Kashmir and we will loosen our grip. As simple as that”.Not clear what grip you are referring to. You have some type of grip on India? News to us, unless you are referring to your ability to lauch a couple of terrorist attacks in India every year.You seem to think and talk out of sheer habit. Except for terrorist attacks (for which you have been made to pay)your country’s ability to influence India has diminished dramatically in the last few years. Instead of talking about your illusory “grip” on us, you need to get a grip on reality.If you are still talking along these lines thinking you are harassing India…..YAWN..Take a hike.p.s on a different note, it is very funny note your “muslim affinity” with Kashmiri muslims, but you don’t seem to have any “muslim affinity” with the Biharis stranded in Bangladesh. Even funnier to note such “muslim affinity” is not able to prevent targeted killings of Punjabis in Balochistan, and targetted killing by muslims of all other types of muslims in rest of the geographic area referred to as Pakistan.

@Mohammed AnjumYour argument is in quite contrast with the prevailing political situation on both the sides. You have to have some international support for such issues, the support which you have been losing over the years. President Obama has recently told you that, flatly.India has more friends among Muslim countries than Pakistan has. During his visit to a seminar in Delhi, Musharraf was apprised of the view point of Indian Muslims in very clear terms, openly in public. The chief Maulana of Deoband School (you know the standing of this institution in this region) sarcastically said at the top of his voice that Pakistan need not worry about Indian Muslims. I think that this message hasn’t been conveyed to the Pakistani people so far.I have put forth my logic in my post above which must be in consonance with sanity not emotions. Anyway, it is upto you how you would want to deal with the issue. Sometimes you crib and sometimes you try to browbeat. You need consistency to solve such issues.Pakistan has been in denial mode about the fairness of the recent elections in Kashmir. According to you the currently elected government is invalid and people like Mufti and Abdullahs have been planted by India. But now, even the Hurriyat is not in a mood to deny the fairness of elections. No international agency has raised questions about the validity of these recent elections. In fact, you are barking up a wrong tree.To sum it up, being a layman, I understand that India consistently is striving for a peaceful solution to Kashmir problem. But the opponent party has never been playing the game within the rules. Your so called “non-state actors” are compounding the situation for both the Kashmiris and the Muslims in the region.

Posted by Liberal from India | Report as abusive

Though no Musharraf fan, I agreed with him on an idea that he put forward a few years ago. If progress is to be accelerated in improving Indo-Pak relations, it could best be done by temporarily keeping aside issues which are contentious and concentrate on those on which progress is easier. Even though he seemed to then have second thoughts on this approach, I think the logic still holds good.I feel that if the two countries manage to move forward on easily achievable goals, the more difficult ones will over time be manageable. Start slowly and the tempo may accelerate subsequently.Mutual trust is the one single factor that is currently lacking. Unless that is removed, through honest effort and small measured steps, progress will continue to be one step forward and two back.

Posted by Dara | Report as abusive

Mohammed Anjum says:”Mr. Global Watcher: “The Paks build nukes, while their people starve. How laughable.”This shows the unfairness of the Indians. You want everything your way. Remember that others can have their opinions too. India has no right to tell us whether we can have the nukes or not. If India can have the nukes, so can Pakistan. And your country is not floating in rose water. You have more than 400 million people who are starving. Why can’t your country spend its precious money on their welfare instead of building nukes and missiles? Why this double standard? You guys should not be telling us what we should do. We have our reasons and it is no one’s business. I am so glad that we became a nuclear power. Now no one can mess with us. Come to the table for discussions or we will force it.”It is often futile having any productive discussions with Pakistan’s because there are very few of you who are willing to have a true discussion based on universal logic, rationality and morality as it is more important for you to defend Pakistan’s image than say and do the right thing. Most Pakistani’s will defend all terrorism and nefarious activities against India and Afghanistan to the end, even though they are wrong, by any standard of any law, and that is what makes Pakistan appear lawless and incoherent to most of us outside Pakistan, not just Indians.Mr. Anjum, India has nukes as a deterant against China, not Pakistan. Pakistan has nukes because it’s ego was bruised in 1971. Your country has always been the agressor, had Pakistan not invaded East Pakistan and started genociding millions, India would have had no reason to jump in and do the right thing.Even the UN or the US did not have the political will to stop the Punjabi Fauji Genocide in Bangladesh which resulting in the systematic murder of 2.5million hindus and 500,000 muslims. Please add that “MISSING” page to the the Pakistani history books for the Pakistani children to learn and see that the Pakistani military was responsible for the Bengali Holocaust on Muslims there and India and those at that time Hindus stopped it.We are not telling you what to do, we are just pointing out what you are doing and making it verbalized and known to all. As you continue to build nukes, your Taliban creation behead your own police forces and Military and flog your women. This is religious violence perpetrated my muslims on muslims, my friend, and compared to this India is a dove.India is not your enemy, we don’t want to fight or invade Pakistan, as foreign fighters have already done that and removed your sovereignty.We only ask that you be sincere, always tell the truth and stop all forms of proxy army terrorism on us, only then, can Kashmir even be brought up in discussion.It is most laughable that in the face of economic calamity that U.S. Taxpayer Money given to fight terrorism is being used by Pakistan to create more nukes.It is Pakistan who has proliferated nuclear technology and played games with the U.S., India and Afghanistan.It is Pakistan who now is being butchered by its own terrorist creations. India has not harmed any Pakistani’s.On the comment about 400 million starving, that is a severely gross exaggeration, India is indeed overpopulated, but you have to realize that poverty takes time to fix and you cannot merely swipe the pen and place each of those people in a nice cushy air conditioned apartment with a fridge full of food. It is not that simple.One way to deal with population is that ALL peoples of all religions in India should have only one wife and one or two children. As you know India as a secular and plural democracy, which legally gives all people a constitional right to persue happiness as they wish and you can’t tell people how many times they can marry and how many kids they have.I don’t believe that the Pakistani constitution even considers non-muslims as equal human beings under the law, which could explain the dwindling population of hindus there.There is no double standard with regards to nukes, it just makes more sense to be fighting terrorism and stablizing your country and focus on educating your children than building nukes, while your country appears to be incoherent and falling apart.Your government spends more on its military than on food and education for its people and that is a fact.Pakistan cannot exist as a country without military and economic life support from the United States, IMF and UK.Also if India had not stayed neutral in the Cold War, the U.S. would not have given a dime to Pakistan to even exist and the Russians would have taken over Afghanistan and invaded Pakistan as well.Mr. Lord Mountbatten created tore apart India and created Pakistan to keep India from growing, terrified at India’s ability to bounce back and progress, given that it now had western style institutions.India is 1.2Billion people my friend, it is best that we work together to progress as friendly neighbours, have lots of trade, travel and exchanges.It is time to abandon the Aggressive Pakistani stance towards India. If Pakistan carries this way, it will collapse from within.India will always exist and has always weathered punishments from the Moghuls and the British. We will always weather and will always be here, we have 7,000 years of inertia.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

Mr. Mohammed Anjum,One more thing, the muslims in India are fine. They are our blood cousins, they are our family ancestors and therefore an integral part of the Indian family.You need not believe that muslims are mistreated in India, even Musharaff was set strait on that fact when he visited India and was astonished how well muslims have progressed.The Indian family is vast and diverse and that is our strength as there are Hindus, Muslims, Christians and other religions among us.We certainly have our share of problems, given our diversity and size and will continue to rectify those issues and progress in every way possible.If Microsoft, Sun Micro-Systems and Silicon Valley are any idea of Indian advancement, you will soon begin to realize that Indians are everywhere in the world, standing on the forefront of human achievement and progress. This is our strength and currently this form of inner strength is evading Pakistan.A strong military is not enough to help your country survive and thrive, it is best that you seek more productive endeavors, through honest, hard working, perseverance and non-religious means.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

Too many responses from Indians and I cannot answer them all individually. But they all sound with the same tone (not surprising to see that). All right. You want me to say that India is a great country, full of wisdom, tolerance, equality, freedom, democracy, peace and so on. Ok. You got it.I expect nothing from you. You can call Pakistan whatever. It makes no difference to us. We are what we are and we decide our destiny. What we find funny is that you guys are sitting across the border and writing about our destiny.All I am saying is that we are no angels and you are no angels. Some of you have claimed that we share the same heritage, which means our attitudes and thought processes must be similar. So what is good for us is good for you as well. We are not some utterly evil nation. We are pushed to the fringe by everyone and we are not going to take that. Everything you see is a reaction to the forces that are trying to subjugate us. And we have every right to fight for our sovereignty. If it looks bad from your perspective, well there is not much we can do about it. We cannot be pushed around anymore for the obvious reasons. The US could walk into Iraq, but they will not dare do that in Pakistan. Everyone knows why. So treat us with some respect and we will return the courtesy accordingly. Do not try to be evasive on Kashmir. It is the core issue and until that is settled, you will remain unsettled. Sorry for my harsh words.

Mr. Global watcher: “You need not believe that muslims are mistreated in India, even Musharaff was set strait on that fact when he visited India and was astonished how well muslims have progressed.”How much did they pay him to say that to Musharraf? We can do the same thing. It is not that difficult to stage puppet shows.

anjum, pakistan will never get kashir,& plz note US wont do the same thing in pakistan, what they did in iraq, coz pakistan has got nothing, iraq had oil…….. hahahaha……… jai hind……

Posted by arun | Report as abusive

Mr. Mohammed Anjum,Yesterday a monument was revealed in the UK to the victims of the 7/7 bombings. The bombers had been trained in Pakistan by terrorists. A couple of them were British-born to Pakistan parents. Their names will not appear on the monument. When N. Sharif was Pak PM, he stated that one day people from UK will return to Pakistan and make it great with their knowledge. I am not sure if Nawaz Sharif wanted Pakistanis returning to Pakistan for terrorist training.Before the Mumbai attacks I read an article called Mumbai Dreams. It was about Indians in their 20s and 30s coming to India to start up businesses in IT, fashion, food using contacts in the rest of the world.After the attackers were found out to be Pakistani; Pakistan went on a cycle of denial only to admit later that the attackers were from Pakistan.So, Mr. Mohammed Anjum, if you feel that Pakistan is pushed to the fringe it is no one else’s fault except its own.

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@Mohammed Anjum,You said: “So treat us with some respect and we will return the courtesy accordingly. Do not try to be evasive on Kashmir. It is the core issue and until that is settled, you will remain unsettled. Sorry for my harsh words.”Mr. Anjum, respect begets respect. When Firebrand clerics and children as young as 5 are shouting “death to India” as the Pakistani Soldier look onwards (you can find these clips on youtube), it does not bode well for any sort of serious discussion on anything between our two countries. Your state agencies are working hand in hand with proxy terrorist armies and in the other cheek you want to be taken seriously and want to discuss Kashmir, well India deserves its respect too. There is no evasiveness, on Kashmir, just the realization on the Indian side, that Pakistan is neither ready nor sincerely in the mindset to discuss peace on Kashmir in a legal, legitimate and coherent manner, from our side you appear too unstable and dishonest to even engage the issue. Pakistan has to come along much further before any discussions on Kashmir happen.As far as getting pushed around, sorry if your ego and feelings are bruised, if you remember, 911, 3000 innocent people were killed in on that fateful day and also almost 200 innocent unarmed civilians going about their business were butchered by Islamic Militants trained on Pakistani soil.Again let me apologize, if I made you feel uncomfortable, or embarassed or shamed you in anyway, I just thought that it was warranted to point out that Pakistan has been the source and root cause for much terrorism around the world, and you Pakistani’s have not been doing much about it, until your own people are getting butchered and now at that time, finally you Pakistani’s are calling the Taliban militants, are they and al Qaeda not militants when they are butchering non-muslims and non-Pakistani’s? That is the way it appears to us, tell us how to feel, tell us what to think, you Pakistani’s only appear to resist Islamic Radical Militantism when it harms Pakistani’s or are strong-armed by the U.S., none other times.What I am implying is sad but true and you are saying, “we are what we are”…that is pure apathy and shameful and MUST stop.Each and every Pakistani must stand up against Islamic militantism in its every form, whether it is against muslims, hindus or christians, that is what WE, the rest of the world, ask of you. Pure and simple, reject mililtantism and terrorism in all its forms, even that terrorism caused upon your neighbours, but we rarely see that.So tell us what are we supposed to think?

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http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn -content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/06-m ilitants-nurtured-for-short-term-objecti ves-zardari-rs-08This news from Dawn says:ISLAMABAD: President Asif Ali Zardari said on Tuesday that militants and extremists had been deliberately created and nurtured as a policy to achieve some short-term tactical objectives.Mr: Anjum wrote:”All I am saying is that we are no angels and you are no angels. Some of you have claimed that we share the same heritage, which means our attitudes and thought processes must be similar”Mr. Anjum, From recent confessions by your leaders, it is clear that Pakistan was/is behaving demons. Excuse yourself we Indians don’t share this attitude and thought process.You also said:”Everything you see is a reaction to the forces that are trying to subjugate us. “Could you please list these forces which are trying to subjugate you ?

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Mr. Global Watcher: “One more thing, the muslims in India are fine.”This is the funniest thing that I have come across in the recent past (and a cruel one at that). The Soviets declared that everything was perfect in their land when millions were slaughtered in their gulags. With half a million troops staged in Kashmir, we all know that Kashmiri Muslims are doing fine as well. Thanks for the reassurance. We know that you Indians are used to the caste and class system. So long as the low caste people stay where they belong, without challenging the upper castes who hold power, everything is fine. Peace prevails when people accept second class citizen status. So we know from this that Muslims in India “are doing fine.” Great.

Mr Arun: “anjum, pakistan will never get kashir,& plz note US wont do the same thing in pakistan, what they did in iraq, coz pakistan has got nothing, iraq had oil…….. hahahaha……… jai hind……”If the US ran over Iraq for their oil, I do not see Iraqi oil pumping out to diffuse their oil price. And they would have taken over Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and so on. They had Iran in their pocket until the Iranians rose up against them. That is why being a nuclear power really helps. Pakistan is the first Islamic nation with nukes. The US could bomb Afghanistan, but with Pakistan they sought an alliance. There must be a reason why that happened. I feel sorry for you Indians. Your leaders tried to jump in and offer bases to the US with the hope that the US will take out both Pakistan and Afghanistan at the same time. Well, the US took a wise decision. Pakistan has always been a valuable and strategic ally for the US in this region. They know that India still has its Left parties who are anti-American. So they turned towards Pakistan and now both countries are working to eliminate Al Qaeda which began global jihad unnecessarily. The US would have been fine if militancy was confined to local pursuits. They do not mess with Hezbollah or Hamas because these organizations are local. They would not have messed with the Taliban either. But Taliban supported Al Qaeda. That is why the US does not support India against LeT, HuJ etc. These have local goals and it does not affect the US interests. Therefore guess what, India will have to worry about LeT and other local organizations which have sworn to liberate Kashmir, whether Pakistani establishment supports them or not. So if your country’s leaders are wise, they would be working on settling Kashmir as quickly as possible, before we clean up the Taliban. After that it might be too late and your country might start filling up front pages in international news more often. Tell your leaders to do the right thing and liberate Kashmir.

Mohammed Anjum: “How much did they pay him to say that to Musharraf? We can do the same thing. It is not that difficult to stage puppet shows.”Not sure how much,if any, had been paid to him.But just ponder over the following FACTS:APJ Abdul Kalam, the most revered ex-president of India. Isn’t he a Muslim?A.R.Rahman: there would be hardly any indian who is not a fan of his music. Isn’t he a Muslim?The Khans of Bollywood: There are millions of fans all across India. Aren’t they muslims?And by the way, the current Vice Presidnet of India is Mohammad Hamid Ansari. Isn’t he a muslim?Need I say more?Can you do the same thing?You might have great experience in staging puppet shows and hence may not be difficult for you. Was Zardari paid anything for making a statement that India is not a threat? For your referencehttp://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/sout h_asia/7653687.stmOr was he a puppet?

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Mr. Singh: “From recent confessions by your leaders, it is clear that Pakistan was/is behaving demons. Excuse yourself we Indians don’t share this attitude and thought process.”We had to do what we had to do. I do not deny that Pakistan had to create the Taliban to bring stability in Afghanistan. The US left the region high and dry after their objective of defeating the USSR was achieved. We faced international sanctions after having stood by the Americans. Wouldn’t India like to have a puppet government in the neighboring countries? Pakistan had to do what it did, due to its own geo-political situation. We have a larger enemy to the East and we had to do the job of bringing stability to Afghanistan.We found the Jihad based insurgency as a great weapon in defeating the Soviet Union. It was a weapon that was honed in that war. I have no shame in admitting that it was the weapon with which India could be made to bow down. And in Kashmir, when the genuine home grown upraising happened due to rigged elections in 1989, Pakistan was ready to help them. Didn’t you guys bleed us in East Pakistan by training the Mukti Bahini and encouraging insurgency there? Didn’t you guys train the Tamil rebels to bleed Sri Lanka? So get a taste of your own medicine. I have no regrets in Pakistan using the same methodology that your country has used and will use if it gets another chance. It is already doing it by helping the Balochistan rebels and even the Taliban.The weapon we developed would have worked well, but for the Al Qaeda which had its own agenda. It went after the Western powers and drew them close. If Al Qaeda had not indulged in global terrorism activities, the US wouldn’t have cared. And our objectives of liberating Kashmir would have been accomplished by now.Sometimes weapons backfire. Sometimes your own missiles fall and kill your own soldiers. That is part of the war. We will take this Taliban experience in that sense. Once we dust ourselves off, the war will continue. This experience will help make better weapons. We learn and improve.Sorry if my words hurt. But peace will only return to the region after Pakistan gets justice that it has been denied all along. Only after that other priorities come in. And we will build the most advanced nation in the region in all aspects.

@ Anjum,”I feel sorry for you Indians. Your leaders tried to jump in and offer bases to the US with the hope that the US will take out both Pakistan and Afghanistan at the same time.”Where on earth do you get this information. Substantiate with proof. Indian leaders never offered bases to US. I feel sorry for you. It is your bases that are being used now. Face the reality and forget the madrassa brainwash.”Well, the US took a wise decision. Pakistan has always been a valuable and strategic ally for the US in this region.”Yeah Yeah strategic ally.. last time i heard pakistanis complain that US left them to fight taliban after the soviets left. So much for an ally. Your people are getting bombed the daylights out of them and you talk about strategic ally.”So they turned towards Pakistan and now both countries are working to eliminate Al Qaeda which began global jihad unnecessarily.”Both countries??? As per your media and bloggers, you guys are being used, Imran khan said yesterday that pakistan’s army was lent out for 1.5Bn. BTW Al Qaeda was born due to what??? introspect yourself.. u guys seem to be forgetting “strategic depth” you had against soviets”That is why the US does not support India against LeT, HuJ etc.”Wait until they tie up with Al Qaeda and start global Jehad. Then US drones would be patrolling on both sides of your border whilw you harp on your strategic ally.”Therefore guess what, India will have to worry about LeT and other local organizations which have sworn to liberate Kashmir, whether Pakistani establishment supports them or not. So if your country’s leaders are wise, they would be working on settling Kashmir as quickly as possible, before we clean up the Taliban.”India has been dealing with those “local organizations since the last 60 years, and yeah they do know of pakistani establishment’s support (people call it “state sponsored terrorism). If India’s leaders are wise, they should just stick to thier stand and not let the taliban or any other crap spill into India.”After that it might be too late and your country might start filling up front pages in international news more often. Tell your leaders to do the right thing and liberate Kashmir.”First look internally and see for whom its too late, you guys are already on the front pages of international news not more often but almost daily. First liberate yourself from this mess and then talk about “liberating” kashmir

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Mr. Mohammed Anjum wrote:The US could bomb Afghanistan, but with Pakistan they sought an alliance. There must be a reason why that happened. I feel sorry for you Indians. Your leaders tried to jump in and offer bases to the US with the hope that the US will take out both Pakistan and Afghanistan at the same time. Well, the US took a wise decision. Pakistan has always been a valuable and strategic ally for the US in this region. They know that India still has its Left parties who are anti-American.So I suppose it absolutely nothing to do with the FACT that Pakistan is directly next door to Afghanistan? It also had nothing to do with Colin Powell telling Pervez Musharuff that Pakistan is either with the USA or against it in the matter of the Taliban and al Qaeda after 9/11? Where is YOUR proof that Indian leaders offered bases to the USA? You can feel as sorry as you like for us, but we are not idiots. You do realise that if India offered bases to the USA and the USA accepted, then your Pakistani based terrorists and/or Taliban would have formed attacks on Indian soil.If Pakistan is such a strategic ally how come Pakistan is not protecting the the supply lines to the USA and NATO troops from Pakistan to Afghanistan?Yes, we in India do have our Left Parties. However, after the USA and NATO troops landed in Afghanistan many Pakistani men went there to fight against them. Most from your Pakistani, warm, friendly, respectful and honor abiding tribal areas. It is in these same regions that Musharuff allowed the Taliban to settle and rearm when they were driven out of Afghanistan. So as a strategic ally Pakistan likes to run with the hounds and the fox. The undigestible truth is that Pakistan is suffering territorially and economically due to its leaders’ decisions. You wish to talk about Kashmir when you can hardly control your own regions: Swat, Bunar.

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Mr. Mohammed Anjum,We are not evasive on the issue of Kashmir. Kashmir is an integral part of India and there will be no more ‘partitions’ of India in the name of religion. If the pro-Pak Muslim people of Kashmir do not want to be part of India then they can leave and join your IDPs from Swat and Bunar in their camps. Or they can go and join those former East Pakistanis living in squalid conditions in Bangladesh. However, the land WILL remain part of India. Muslims have plenty of territory from Morocco to Indonesia.Mr. Jinnah and Pakistanis got their piece of cake and ate it. Do not ask for seconds.Maybe you (as a Muslim) can explain this to me:Muslim states ‘silent’ on Uighurs (al Jazeera, 07/07/2009)

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Bulletfish, you said:”Maybe you (as a Muslim) can explain this to me:Muslim states ’silent’ on Uighurs (al Jazeera, 07/07/2009)”You have correctly noted this.Where is Pakistan, should they not be exercising the Grand Islamic Ummah to ask for China to let the Uighurs to separate from China? Then why Kashmir?I have yet to so any peoples from any of the Islamic Nations condemn the crackdown on Muslims in Uighur.Mr. Obama should be aware of this, when confronted on the issue of Kashmir. Kashmir belongs to India, both sides in fact do.

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Amongst all the neighboring countries that India has had, Pakistan is the one country it has strived to destroy, in order to prove its myth of united India. It did try to muscle its way into Sri Lanka as well. It has held on to the states in its North Eastern part by brute force against the wishes of the people in the region. A lot of you Indians have grown up with the wrong mentality that your country is the most benevolent one in the world. Your military and government have been brutal in their approach towards others in the region. Hence our response has been similar. We know that we cannot take on a larger Indian military. But we have found ways to take your military on. Right now times are hard for us. We will bear with it and come out stronger. But fight we will against your dominance. Your country has been trying to bully Pakistan into submission by first taking over two thirds of Kashmir which was on its way to merge with our nation rightfully. Then it helped cut East Pakistan off. We will settle our current domestic issues first and very soon. And we will bring your country to justice. Pakistanis will never stop until justice is served. Our fight started in 1948 when India tried to show its muscles. And it has not ended. The sole reason why the sub-continent has never settled is because of what India did in Kashmir in 1948. So that is the root cause. Once that is settled, peace has a chance after that. It does not matter how great you think your country might be.

Mr. Mohammed Anjum, YOU are evading a point I made to you:Maybe you (as a Muslim) can explain this to me:Muslim states ’silent’ on Uighurs (al Jazeera, 07/07/2009)”Kashmir had over 500,000 Hindu Pundits. What happened to them? This is not a small number! Is this how you work? Invade a country ‘force’ people to convert or kill them then claim that the people, culture and land is your own when it was NEVER yours to claim? What is next: Londonistan, Chinastan…? Kashmir is not rightfully yours just because of your religion.Do you remember what happened in 1971 in East Pakistan? Millions of your own citizens sought refuge in India and thousands were murdered by your own glorious Pak military. I have seen a beautiful photo of a Pakistani Lieutenant General A A K Niazi signing a ‘surrender’ in Dhaka (not a strategic cease fire). He then had to be protected by the Indian soldiers from the new Bangladeshis. He did cry. Over 90,000 Pakistani prisoners of war which was the largest surrender of forces since World War II.Since when does India need to bully Pakistan into doing anything. Pakistan is a beggar state:”Please Uncle Saudi, can we please defer oil payments.”"Please Mr. China, can we have a no-strings-attached loan after all we are all-weather friends, aren’t we?”"Please IMF, can we have money…again.”Pakistan has asked the IMF for money twice in less than 20 years!!!You created and nurtured terrorists on you own soil for so long and you want us Indians and the world to believe that this will all go away if we all give them what they want?This is blackmail!

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Anjum:While bragging about how effective was Jihad as a weapon against USSR, you are completely forgetting USA element, that Jihad was backed by a world super power. Jihad against India is backed by almost bankrupt country, which is begging from practically everyone. Its on 10th place in Failed state index.Other factor is Morality of your Jihad, Afghanistan Jihad was against USSR Army, But yours is killing Innocents in India of all caste creed and religion. Do your terrorists distinguish between Muslims and Hindus ?By Using Jihad as a weapon against India, Pakistan has walked too far on the way of self destruction. But it seems like blood is less and anti india venom is more in your veins. Your leaders are asking aid for Pakistan and you are boasting about how Pakistan is going to win this war and retaining Kashmir and winning back Bangladesh. You are nuclear country, why dont you go and take over traitor Bengalis ?If India had any animosity towards Pakistan, We could have attacked Bangladesh in 1948 and 1965 and Logistically it was not possible for pakistan to defend bangladesh. But we just tried to keep war as limited as we could. India could also keep your 1,00,000 army as prisoners and try them under war crimes, but we returned these useless good for nothing warriors.Jihadi weapon is not Backfiring, instead its turning towards you now. Its out of control and latest example is Swat, where you have millions of refugees.Sorry for my harsh words

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Mr. Singh: “While bragging about how effective was Jihad as a weapon against USSR, you are completely forgetting USA element, that Jihad was backed by a world super power. Jihad against India is backed by almost bankrupt country, which is begging from practically everyone. Its on 10th place in Failed state index.”The USSR invaded Afghanistan and the US stepped in. But they never directly were involved in the operations. It was Pakistan that executed their plan. It worked to everyone’s advantage. Communistic imperialism was defeated that benefitted the whole world. So many countries that were subjugated by the Soviets in Eastern Europe and elsewhere were liberated and are free countries now. They all owe their freedom to Pakistan, which allowed the battle to happen in its backyard, took the most calculated risks and saved the world. And in the case of Kashmir, India invaded with its troops in 1948. Pakistan had every right to take Kashmir over as an adjoining Muslim majority state. All this story of Pathans engaging in rape, loot etc are Indian concocted story to use as an excuse to invade and deny Pakistan what would have been its rightful domain. So Pakistan has every right to use the same methodology it tried and succeeded against the Soviets and bleed India in Kashmir. Whether the US backs us or not, in the case of Kashmir, we can handle it ourselves. If the Al Qaeda had not attacked the US, by now Kashmir would have been liberated. So there is a sudden shift in the sequence of events. But in a war, things do not go the way one plans. Sometimes battles get lost. But war must go on until the final goal is achieved. And the war will go in every front possible. We will take Kashmir or liberate them from your hands.”Other factor is Morality of your Jihad, Afghanistan Jihad was against USSR Army, But yours is killing Innocents in India of all caste creed and religion. Do your terrorists distinguish between Muslims and Hindus ?”India is not made of angels. Your countrymen have killed many thousands in the name of religion, caste, class and prejudice. So do not preach to us about human rights. Your police force is one of the most brutal in the world and your torture methods are famous. We do not support killing of innocents. We are fighting for them against your military which is doing it. Get this clear.”By Using Jihad as a weapon against India, Pakistan has walked too far on the way of self destruction. But it seems like blood is less and anti india venom is more in your veins. Your leaders are asking aid for Pakistan and you are boasting about how Pakistan is going to win this war and retaining Kashmir and winning back Bangladesh.”Sometimes new weapons need a lot of fine tuning to do. Sometimes they explode within your own factory. But it takes a few years of trials and errors to make it perfect. Jihad is one such weapon and Pakistan will never give it up. That is the way to keep countries like yours at bay. Do not think we will disappear because we are a smaller nation. We are a smarter nation. Our objectives are clear and we will survive through tough times to emerge even stronger. The best thing your country can do is to see what is coming and be proactive. This is the best opportunity to mend your stance and do the right thing. Settle Kashmir and you will do well in the future.” You are nuclear country, why dont you go and take over traitor Bengalis ?”It is all right. Let Bangladesh live well. At some point they are going to wake up to realize India’s hegemony in the region and will join the grand alliance of smaller neighbors in their collective efforts, much like a NATO alliance against the Soviets.”If India had any animosity towards Pakistan, We could have attacked Bangladesh in 1948 and 1965 and Logistically it was not possible for pakistan to defend bangladesh. But we just tried to keep war as limited as we could. India could also keep your 1,00,000 army as prisoners and try them under war crimes, but we returned these useless good for nothing warriors.”India did cut East Pakistan off. How does it matter when they could have done it? Look towards the future and see what can be done. Settle Kashmir first before it becomes too late.”Jihadi weapon is not Backfiring, instead its turning towards you now. Its out of control and latest example is Swat, where you have millions of refugees.”Weapons sometimes backfire. Your RAW and the military learned that in Sri Lanka. The IPKF was defeated and returned home after LTTE turned against you. One learns from these ventures and hones the weapon further.”"Sorry for my harsh words”This is the only wise statement in your argument so far.

Bulletfish: “Mr. Mohammed Anjum, YOU are evading a point I made to you:Maybe you (as a Muslim) can explain this to me:Muslim states ’silent’ on Uighurs (al Jazeera, 07/07/2009)””Why should Muslim states say anything at all? A lot of uprisings go on everywhere for various reasons. Most Muslim states are also silent on the plight of Palestinians or Kashmiris. Why are you Hindus so silent on the case of the rape in Kashmir that your security forces have committed? I do not see anyone condemning it. Go fix your country first before demanding anything from others.

Mr. Mohammed Anjum, you should take a real good look at your country first before looking at India.You want to bring rape, well, how do you know it was the security forces? Are you compelled to state that as a Pakistani? At least the process of justice is in motion: those who tampered with the case have been dismissed. So there.Please explain to me about Mukhtar Mai. The woman who was GANG RAPED as a form of revenge honor. Your Mushy boy prevented her from travelleing outside of Pakistan because he was afraid she would tarnish Pakistan’s image. He already did that by preventing her from travel. Also, this pathetic idea that women in Pakistan ALLOW themselves to get raped inorder to gain world sympathy to leave Pakistan.Should I go on to type about the 17-year old girl, Taslim Solangi who was chased and ravaged by dogs before being shot dead in front of her father.You asking me to go and fix my country, well, Mr. Anjum please go and polish your begging bowl:US$1 = 81.7 Pak rupee (current rate)

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Sorry Mr. Mohammed Anjum. Here is the “most” current rate according to Economist magazine.The rates for Monday, 13th July 2009 12:09:23 GMT1 USD = 81.8 PKROne PKR = 0.0123 USD

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