Lashkar-e-Taiba: assessing the threat

July 9, 2009

Having asked last month whether Pakistan was in a position to take on the Laskhar-e-Taiba, an obvious follow-up question was to try to assess how much of a threat the militant group blamed for last year’s attacks on Mumbai represents to the West and to India.

According to analysts who track the LeT closely, the Pakistan-based militant group is not the new al Qaeda. It is still very much focused on Kashmir and India, while its single-issue agenda along with the humanitarian work carried out by its Jamaat-ud-Dawa charitable wing mean it is more comparable to the Palestinian Islamist group Hamas than to al Qaeda.

That said, it has a formidable infrastructure and global network of sympathisers and fund-raisers that could be used by other groups which do want to target the west, and that in itself makes it a threat.  What also comes across in talking to people about the LeT are concerns about the group going rogue, either because it slips out of the control of Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) agency, or because splinter groups break away from the leadership of its founder, Hafez Saeed, and become a danger not just to India and the West, but also to Pakistan itself. (As discussed in this earlier post, deepening instability in Pakistan’s heartland Punjab province, where the LeT is based, would dwarf anything seen until now in the tribal areas.)

In the meantime, Praveen Swami, associate editor at The Hindu, has written an analysis of the Indian Mujahideen and the Lashkar-e-Taiba for the June edition of the CTC Sentinel (pdf document). It is a must-read for its wealth of detail about the LeT’s connections in the Gulf, as well as its description of how the LeT nurtured the Indian Mujahideen within India itself.

“From its origins in Pakistan’s Punjab province, the LeT has grown into a transnational organisation,” he writes. “This development is of concern to authorities across the region for three reasons. First, the evolutionary trajectory of the LeT will make it increasingly resistant to counter-terrorism action in any one country or decapitation attempts targeting its leadership. Second, the LeT’s ability to recruit from a pool of well-educated, affluent sympathisers in multiple countries gives it dramatically enhanced reach and lethality. Third, the LeT could spawn and sustain the growth of quasi-independent jihadist movements outside of Pakistan.”

Do also check out Swami’s rather prescient article in the Hindu which he wrote in 2007warning about the risks of LeT militants reaching India by sea – just as they did in last November’s Mumbai attacks — rather than following the traditional route of crossing the Line of Control dividing Kashmir.  “So far, Pakistan appears to have moved to restrain the Lashkar from acting on its publicly declared desire to execute major terrorist strikes in India — but done little to dismantle its capability to do so,” he wrote in 2007. “As the detente process proceeds, India needs to ensure that Pakistan is urged to take this next, necessary step.”

Finally, for an insight into how the U.S. administration views the Laskhar-e-Taiba, it is interesting to see Tim Roemer, President Barack Obama’s choice for ambassador to India, bracketing the LeT along with the Taliban and al Qaeda.

According to this report in Pakistan’s Dawn newspaper, asked what India could do to improve its relationship with Pakistan, Roemer said: ”There’s more we can do to share information about our common threats in that area, which are al Qaeda, the Taliban and Lashkar-e-Taiba, and try to prevent the next attack from taking place, or deflect that next attack.”

Much to talk about when the foreign secretaries and then prime ministers of India and Pakistan meet next weekon the sidelines of a Non-Aligned summit in Sharm el-Sheikh, Egypt.

(Reuters file photos: Mumbai skyline; LeT commander Lakhvi and U.S. ambassador-designate Tim Roemer)

Comments

LeT = Al Quaeda 2.0

Posted by Sunny | Report as abusive
 

Myra this is a good post, i still have to go through the links and read in detail. You have rightly equated Laskar-e Taiba with Hamas, unlike the Hezbollah which essentially rose from impoverished Southern Lebanon and fought with Israel. The Lebanese military and state was so weak and couldnt stand up to Israel that is where Hezbollah fills the vaccum.
However, in Pakistan the role of Pakistan Armed forces(Army, Navy, Air Force) along with nuclear weapons are the game changers.
Just yesterday, UK Foreign Secretary David Milliband was IN Lahore, Punjab with the chief minister and met Nawaz Sharif and took a tour of historical sites. The west is rightly concerened about LeT and stability of Punjab heartland.
My point is this, when you mention Lashkar and Hammas and draw the parallels do also mention Kashmir and Palestine. It only took a ‘humanitarian’ tri to Bosnia for a London School of Economics bright student to turn into a militant. I am refering to Omar Sheikh, and being from a journalism profession you know what he did. I dont want to sound like a sympathiser to these groups (Lashkar or Hamas) but the west will need to play a role in bringing an end to Kashmir and Palestine disputes. Progress is being made. US envoy George Mitchell is working in Middle East, and former PM Tony Blair is also an EU envoy. Pressure is being exerted on Israel to stop building settlements and agree to two-state solution. As progress is made in Kashmir too, all these militant groups must cease to exist. I am sure with education and promise of a bright future, militancy can be tackled. Eventually the world will become much more safer. But the process has to begin, the west has to tkae initiatives, the Muslims on their part have an even greater responsiblity.
Lets not just confine this to Militancy, Lashkar, Punjab and Pakistan. Lets get to the root causes.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

This is the final mandate given to the present government in India to deal with Pakistan conclusively. India and Pakistan can not anymore afford to give heed to the cunning of the West and the Chinese in this region. India and Pak need to resolve their problems bilaterally, sooner the better. And the only way out for Pakistan is to tame their so called “non-state-actors”. This time, believe me that mood of the Indian public would not forgiving but…

Pakistan is still undergoing a phase of assertion of authority, courtsey U.S. and the Paki army. They should have an all party meet to come to a consensus on regional problems. There can not be a consensus in Pakistan unless Nawaz Sharief nods, and their politically ‘high testosterone wielding’ generals of past and present are out of policy formulation process.

The only way out for these two countries is to immediately start working towards building strong economic ties. Peoples particiaption is the only way out. If U.S. cannot help work in this direction with these two countries then I consider its role as just mischief monger. Its just laughable to see their ambassadors putting India at par with Pakistan. This is outrageous to even a non-communist liberal like me.

Posted by Liberal from India | Report as abusive
 
 

Myra, Umair said:

“You have rightly equated Laskar-e Taiba with Hamas, unlike the Hezbollah which essentially rose from impoverished Southern Lebanon and fought with Israel. The Lebanese military and state was so weak and couldnt stand up to Israel that is where Hezbollah fills the vaccum.”

“My point is this, when you mention Lashkar and Hammas and draw the parallels do also mention Kashmir and Palestine. It only took a ‘humanitarian’ tri to Bosnia for a London School of Economics bright student to turn into a militant. I am refering to Omar Sheikh, and being from a journalism profession you know what he did. I dont want to sound like a sympathiser to these groups (Lashkar or Hamas) but the west will need to play a role in bringing an end to Kashmir and Palestine disputes. Progress is being made. US envoy George Mitchell is working in Middle East, and former PM Tony Blair is also an EU envoy. Pressure is being exerted on Israel to stop building settlements and agree to two-state solution. As progress is made in Kashmir too, all these militant groups must cease to exist. I am sure with education and promise of a bright future, militancy can be tackled. Eventually the world will become much more safer. But the process has to begin, the west has to tkae initiatives, the Muslims on their part have an even greater responsiblity.
Lets not just confine this to Militancy, Lashkar, Punjab and Pakistan. Lets get to the root causes.
- Posted by Umair ”

Myra, first of all, Hamas is labelled a terrorist organization by the UN and its member nations, please clarify if you were drawing a parallel between LeT and Hamas and also please make it know if you feel Hezbollah is a terrorist organization, apparently, one Pakistani blogger does not think they are terrorists, do you think this blogger is using any political means possible to draw attention away from homegrown Pakistani terrorism?

Secondly Myra, Israel was formed out of Palestine, the same way Pakistan was formed out of India, this blogger, keeps forgetting that things are the other way around, Pakistan was made out of land torn away from India, using that same standard, you never see Indians citizens doing suicide bxmbings on Pakistan do you?

The West has no responsibility to recognize terrorists as those who commit terrorism will face a quick end, one way or another, Karma comes back at those who commit violence in the name of God or the politics of God and that is a fact.

For arguements sake, if Palestinians, the original inhabitants want their land back from Israel, should Indians, the original inhabitants of India and Pakistan, not be allowed to have all the Pakistani land back? Sounds absurd? It also sounds absurd when Umair equates Palestine with Kashmir, there is no comparison. The Palestinians owned that land for several thousand years, while India owned the land of Pakistan and Kashmir for several thousand years too, but do the politics of Islam, Umair has a double standard that stands out like sore thumb, you know where you can shove that thumb.

Myra, by any of your western standards, do you not consider Hamas, Hezbollah and LeT terrorist organizations? If there is no response from you, I will consider that as a resounding “Yes” and any comparisons between Palestine and Kashmir, by a certain blogger, the idle thoughts of a misguided cretin.

On: “Lets not just confine this to Militancy, Lashkar, Punjab and Pakistan. Lets get to the root causes.”

The root causes of all terrorism in this world, including Pakistan is that some evil men use Islam for Political means, those men that drag a good religion through mud, to satisfy their own agendas to consolitdate, power at any means and using the good holy book to justify attrocities, hate towards others and blatant doublestandards and beheadings, these are the same people who committed the 1971 Bengali Holocaust and out of the same mouth you hear them crying about human rights, how absurd!

Some of my best friends are muslims and they vehemently disagree with Pakistan’s past creation of fomenting terrorism against India to succeed more land away from India, that is the only reason here, plain and simple.

The path forward for Pakistan is to forget about Kashmir and forget about training terrorists to split it away from India, as I said earlier, get your soldiers farming food and educate your young with a modern non-madrasa education. Please be honest, tell the truth and focus on productive endeavors.

Most of all, step back and try to view the world through a rational, logic means, outside of a context of religiously political means.

Countries must also reign in their military junta’s, which operate in the shadows, without the consent of the civilian government, that is almost more dangerous to the world than terrorism, is rogue armies with nukes.

Yes, the west has to take steps, but the east also has to take steps, the east must separate religion and politics and remove racism and hatred and politics from its places of worship, state indoctrinated hatred of India, that is also, one of the root causes of terrorism, that has led to the rise of the Let, JuD and HuM and other proxy armies against India. It seems those who indulge in religion and politics will use almost any excuse to commit terrorism to forcefully grab land from others, that is not right and must stop, otherwise the terrorism will last forever.

Terrorism, in all its forms must be crushed, unequivocally, by the West and the EAST, from where much of it originates. All places of worship, all religions everywhere must denounce all forms of terrorism everywhere and those who politicize religions and preach death to others, while uttering the name of God, it must be all or nothing effort to be effective.

One last thing, when someone says:

“I am refering to Omar Sheikh, and being from a journalism profession you know what he did. I dont want to sound like a sympathiser to these groups (Lashkar or Hamas)”

Well, when you make a statement like that, you just made a positive and definitive statement that you actually do sympathize and support terrorists, but say that only because you don’t want to be labelled as such.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive
 

As Umair has rightly pointed out, Kashmir issue has to be resolved quickly before things get out of control. And it can have dire consequences for the whole region. Bilateral resolution of issues between Pakistan and India has not worked. It has only made things worse by not letting anything progress. Militant groups are impatient. Before they decide to act on their own, India must step forward to resolve the Kashmir issue. Their human rights records there are getting international highlights now and it can energize groups like the LeT to act. Third party mediation is the absolute necessity now. Indians will not want it because it will prove counter productive to their interests. But they will be forced to take up third party involvement. Blaming Pakistan day in and day out is their only bilateral exchange that they have done so far. Hope wisdom prevails.

 

Mr.Umair does a great disservice to the suffering people of Palestine by comparing Lashkar-e-Toiba with Hamas, and worse using Kashmir and Palestine in the same sentence.

Firstly, Hamas is fighting for their own people, and is made of Palestinians while LeT is a non-Kashmiri outside organization , created and used for the purposes of adventures of a rogue state; attempting to grab more land that belonging to a different ethnic group.

Secondly, while Palestinians are suffering in their own land, in Kashmir the muslims indulged in genocide and expelled the Hinuds , the other way around.

The good news is the international community knows the above differences.

 

ISI’s double game

US death toll at 647, NATO at 1450 …

“Pakistan’s military has declared that not only is it in contact with Afghan Taliban leader Mullah Mohammed Omar but that it can bring him and other commanders to the negotiating table with the United States”

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapc f/07/10/pakistan.taliban.omar/#cnnSTCTex t

Posted by Patrick | Report as abusive
 

I don’t believe that miilitant gropus operating from one country can not be connected. These are no state armies. As long as they kill people extrajudicially, they are terrorists and they must be dealt regardless who their target is.
And Umair, are you saying that “Kashmir” is the reason for all these militant groups? I bet if pak gets Kashmir, then you folks will ask for Indian Punjab and so on.. there is no scarcity of “reasons”. Is there?

Posted by Nick | Report as abusive
 

Xinjiang Effect!

Official: Pakistan can help broker U.S.-Taliban talks
http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/07  /10/pakistan.taliban.omar/index.html

Two days back, when Hu got back to China from G8, he immediately got in touch with Kiyani and asked him to get rid of all talibans and alikes. China is now scared about Taliban trained Uigers. So under Chinese pressure, ISI invented this new game to keep all strategic assets alive for tomorrow.

Second, with recent intense drone attacks, Pakistan is realizing this is the only way to keep taliban alive. and ISI can kill so many birds with one stone:
1. Taliban stays alive to fight tomorrow if needed
2. Pakistan gets US billions
3. China can be convinced that Taliban disappeared or moved to Afghanistan and no longer Pakistan’s problem
4. Pakistan extort more US weapons and may be a nuclear deal from USA
5. Pakistan gets to keep anti-India terrorists
6. And Pakistan gets accolades and more aid as a peace maker

But the most important thing is:
1. Pakistan was playing double game with US/NATO since 2001.
2. Now we all know that ISI knows where is Mulla Omar.
3. If Pakistan had made this statement in 2001, 647 US lives and 1500 NATO lives could have been saved.

It is really tragic when you get allies like this!

Posted by Paul | Report as abusive
 

Mr. Global watcher: “The path forward for Pakistan is to forget about Kashmir and forget about training terrorists to split it away from India, as I said earlier, get your soldiers farming food and educate your young with a modern non-madrasa education. Please be honest, tell the truth and focus on productive endeavors.”

I’d like to suggest the same to the Indians. Forget Kashmir and hold the plebiscite there. It was never a part of your country and it never will be. That is why you are holding it at gun point with half a million soldiers. Tell your soldiers to leave the valley and go do farming.

Some Indians have expressed their apprehension that Pakistan will not stop with Kashmir. And we feel the same about India. You cut off East Pakistan. And you have encouraged secessionism in Sindh and Balochistan. And you may dismember us into smaller nations because you never believed in a nation for Muslims of the sub-continent. So the feelings are mutual.

We have our aims and goals. Just like you believe your apprehensions, being a smaller nation, we believe in ours. By Allah’s grace, we have become a nuclear power. So that will prevent anyone from achieving their dreams of splitting up Pakistan. If we see any signs of that, we will defend our nation with full force.

Let us see if India makes even one positive step in regards to Kashmir. Then we will worry about Pakistan. Telling Pakistan to forget about Kashmir is indirectly telling them to continue the fight. So do not try such methods. That will only energize Pakistan more. And unfortunately for you, conventional war will not work anymore.

 

With the Pakistan Air Force Academy in Risalpur, NWFP and Pakistan Military Academy located in Abbotabad, NWFP. The rear-Air HQ in Peshawar and air bases, military garrison in Peshawar and entire corps stationed in the area. Pakistan Military and Intelligence Serive has considerable number of Pushtun officers and men serving in its ranks who speak the same language as Mullah Omar. Ok, this was just for reference it actually doesnt make any difference on the ground. Nor does it necessarily means Pakistan Military supports Mullah Omar. There might only be open lines of communication that I am refering to.
Now the US and NATO must accept Pakistan Military’s offer to mediate between Taliban and them. Pakistan could help a face-saving exit for the US out of this war.
For those who regret being Pakistan’s ally, we are proud of ISI. Just remember in international relations there are no permanent friends, only permanent interests. Henry Kissinger is a good statesman.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

@Paul,

It appears that Pakistan has succeeded in planted an uprising in China as well. If Pakistani’s can blame the rise of the Taliban on India, well, I an Indian can also blame the uprising of the Uigers on Pakistan.

It appears as China was playing footsie with Pakistan, as a strategy against India, Pakistan was quiety placing more “strategic assets” in China.

Let’s see if if the Pakistani establishment is going to give “moral” support to the Uigers as they did to the Kashmiri’s, after all, it is Ummah, isn’t it? Why is there any difference. For the bad Karma China has planted against India, by helping Pakistan, Karma is now going to play a dirty trick back on China.

That Karma will come in the form of an Uiger insurgency into China. This will take a like of its own now.

I am curious to see if the Chinese will treat the Uigers as they have done the Buddhists from Tibet?

The best policy is live and let live and do not hurt others, but where others are suffering, do the right thing and help them on a humanitarian, non-religious basis.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive
 

Mohammed Anjum, you said:

“By Allah’s grace, we have become a nuclear power. ”

Actually, it is not by God’s grace, it is by the actions of a liar and a thief and an illegal proliferator of nuclear technology, his name is A.Q. Khan, not God, no reasonable and rational moral person would believe that God exists in the domain of such activities.

If you want to thank God, on an infinitely more lower human, scale, but higher than Khan, you should also thank Albert Einstein, I believe he was blessed with the ability to actually conceive the quantum equation.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive
 

Mr.Anjum writes —> “Telling Pakistan to forget about Kashmir is indirectly telling them to continue the fight”.

Mr.Anjum writes—> “conventional war will not work anymore”

MR.ANJUM, whenever I ask you specific questions you respond by hiding behind generalities, is your bravery consists of throwing generalities?.

.Q1. Your above comments indicate you ARE fighting AT THE MOMENT.

Can you explain to us how the Pakistanis are fighting at the moment?

Q2. Who are the “them” in the above statement? Pak Punjabis?

Q3. If conventional war is not an option, explain what other methods of war you are pursuing at the moment and how long have you pursued them?

Q4. Explain how your current methods of “fighting” have influenced India.

Q5. Do you expect any change in India’s position on Kashmir as a result of your current methods of “fighting”?

p.s you write long posts, should be able to answer the questions and you seem to have plenty of time on your hands.

 

Anjum: “By Allah’s grace, we have become a nuclear power. ”

It’s not by Allah’s grace but due to the STEALING/COPYING power of your ‘Father of Nuclear Program’ A Q Khan.

If you call stealing as Allah’s grace, then you are disgracing Allah.

Posted by Sunny | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan seems to be entering another turn. See the following link.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/12/world/ asia/12baluchistan.html?_r=1&hp

I have been to Pakistan in the mid-70s and its people were wonderful and hospitable. I am sorry to see these events that are unfolding. I wish the very best to the Pakistani people who deserve a good life. I am a silent reader of these blogs and was tempted to quote this reference since I see some Pakistanis trying to focus too much on Kashmir while its provinces are being torn apart by centrifugal forces. At this time, Kashmir issue should not be the top of the priorities for Pakistan. It is important to bring peace to the nation. And this means, giving up certain weapons that have turned counter productive to the very integrity of Pakistan. Hope wisdom prevails.

 

Ques to Myra:
Immediately, after 26/11, you had made a post comparing the Indian assertion that LeT was responsible to Iraqi WMD story. It turned out that the Indian assertion was more like US claim after 9/11 about Osama – both were on correct.
So, given that LeT has repeatedly targetted civilians in India and Al-Qaeda targets civilian all over the world – how is LeT not comparable to AQ but to Hamas – which by the way also targets civilians in Israel.

Is it fine for a extremist organization to target civilians in India or Israel but as soon as they target european countries or US they become terrorist organizations?

I have been following your posts for over a year now and I would like to know your opinion as a western journalist stationed in India

Posted by pragmatic Indian | Report as abusive
 

mohammed Anjum,
It is typical of a punjabi pakistani to bluster and hide weakness – and they have been repeatedly caught ’71 and siachen.
India has no problem fighting full-fledged terrorist attacks either economically, socially or militarily. We wiped out terrorism in punjab and have almost done the same in kashmir – thats why you see neither the army nor the para-military in fore-front of security in kashmir.

India has 3 corps in kashmir to guard the LoC against Pak and Leh against China. This is not a large size given kashmir is surrounded by two hostile nations. We are seeing the drawing down of para-military also since the local police is now effective enough to fight the terrorist.

What is it that Pak or its terrorist groups like LeT can do that is worse that what we have already seen in last 20 years. India is so strong economicaly now, unlike pak that goes wround begging, that an average Indian does not see any necessity to appease Pak LeT terrorists. We can keep fighting till Pak is replaced by independent baluchistan, Sind and NWFP. We have not asked for foreign assistance to feed our own IDP like kashmiri pandits – Pak has. So an average pakistani has to decide how long can they sustain this – given that many of these groups carry out Marriott Hotel blast, kill Benazir, kill chief of pak army medical corp (a lt. gen).

As Myra’s analysis shows – LeT may splinter and what better place to fight it out among themselves than the punjabi heartland in Pak. So, please prepare to reap the whirlwind of destruction if you sow groups like LeT

Posted by common sense | Report as abusive
 

I guess it is not hard to understand that Pakistan’s policy is a pro-terrorism policy. we know the reasons (not justify) why Pakistan army/ISI created terrosits. But I am amazed at the Pakistanis who have seen the days of Pakistan’s support to Taliban in Afghanistn to Operation Rah-e-rast against Taliban in pakistan support certain terrorists like LeT just because they act aginst Indians not Pakistanis. Either such Pakistanis are plain stupid or terrorist sympathizers. Too bad for Pakistan either way.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

Myra,

This new precedence of applying bone crushing pressure on the head of Pakistan it seems to have been effective on the Taliban, at least for now if Pakistan is not lying and is honest, time will tell.

History repeats itself, as they say and the U.S. will once again leave Pakistan when its mission is finished. THis time, I predict that the Pakistani establishment or rogue elements of it, will weaponize in the future against the U.S., if they fail to exert pressure on Pakistan to crush the proxy armies.

This is a credible threat to world security all over, especially Europe, if Pakistan is allowed to carry on as is and not reign in the proxy armies, something much worse than 911 will befall another country in the future.

These proxy armies are much more organized and funded and supported locally than Al-Qaeda is. The U.S. would be naive and foolish to leave without completing the job.

Pakistan being the epicentre of terrorism, state or non-state needs to be held accountable.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive
 

We will not allow gun totting Taliban to take over Kashmir at any cost. Kashmir was a peaceful state with muslim majority with a sufi midset, hindus, sikhs & buddhists amongst others lived peacefully. Now majority of Hindus were killed and are living in exile. What is the meaning for Free Kashmir?? Land of only sunni muslims? What comes next? will Buddhists will be forcefully converted? Shia muslims will be subjugated?

A country which had 23% minorities just 60 years ago has less than 3% minorities left and they want Kashmir, what happened to those minorities? why does anyone expect us to allow ethnic cleansing in the Kashmir by pakistan?

Look at swat, what the pakistanis have turned that place into, both reliaed mainly on tourists for revenue. Why would we allow Kashmir to turn into another swat?

Pakistan’s army and top brass always knew they will never get Kashmir, the whole charade is part of the million cuts theory.

If Pakistan really cared for Kashmiris they would have never allowed armed militants to wreck peaceful Kashmir, instead a civil non violent movement would could have been initiated.

60% of militants fighting in Kashmir are foreign, all the militants get a Salary and it has become a profession for them(I have never heard of a sucessful separatist movement where the main motivation is money and not ideology). Pakistani punjabi militants are promised beautiful kashmiri wives for thier jihad (so much for caring for kashmiris).

Aksi Chin a part of Kashmir was sold to China, that should be a good indication of how much pakistan cares for Kashmir and Kashmiris. Whats to stop them from selling of more parts of Kashmir is they ever get hold of it??

Every Kashmiri protest that I have seen on TV shows me a bunch of underage kids jumping around with a few men in thier 20s and crowd is hardly more than 100 at the most. Where are the middle class, women, elderly and others of Kasmir protesting? do they want to join the land of Taliban? Why is it not mass movement ? Do you really expect any sane person to join pakistan (land of extremists and suicide bombers)?

Sajjad lone (separatist)took the brave decision to contest in election and was given the mandate, all the other separatists who ever bother to listen will be given the same answer by the Kashmiris.

Look up history of Kashmir and you will find that right from 1947, 1965 and Kargill every time there was an infiltration from pakistan it was Kashmiri residents who alerted and helped the Indian army in throwing them back.

Lastly what moral/political right does pakistan have over Kashmir?? If muslims are what they are really concerned about then how come the Bihari Muslims are still stuck in Bangladesh??? Were they not promised to be setteled in Pakistan, the promise is overdue by more than 3 DECADES!!!

What STAND HAS PAKISTAN TAKEN AGAINST THE ATROCITIES AGAINST MUSLIMS IN CHINA????

Why are Ahemadiys declared non muslims by Paksitani constitution? Isnt that decision for Allah to make or was that responsibility delegated to pakistani high court?

Pakistan doesnt care about muslims they want land and resources so they can mismange them and then go back to IMF and other countries for aid.

All those who are talking about a plebiscite in Kashmir, I promise to support you WHOLE HEARTEDLY provided you conduct a plebiscite in BALOCHISTAN, PAKHTUNKHWA & AZAD KASHMIR.

Please practise what you preach before you nag other about plebiscite.

I ask all the pakistani pseudo intellectuals and arm chair generals to answer my questions (DONT PICK SNIPPETS ANSWER ALL THE QUESTIONS!).

Posted by indian1127 | Report as abusive
 

This is how China treats minority muslims and Pakistan supports and encourages China. Muslims will never get anything better than Pakistan. Should be proud be proud Pakistan. At least Turkey got some morality.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con tent/article/2009/07/11/AR2009071100464. html?hpid=topnews

Posted by Paul | Report as abusive
 

“Well human is a hate loving race, Why should we be any different.”. A teenage boy told me once.
After reading comments on this page i m in deep dismay. i will not defend Pakistan’s elite ruling class, of which most of you are referring too(commonly known as think tanks, educated pakistanis). PEOPLE! please at least try too get your history right. This phenomena of terrorism in relation of Muslims of Pakistan has its roots in soviet-afghan war. our mistake was that we did not consider dual nature of U.S.A.. We help them beat soviets and they gave us fools like Osama. we let them even use ISLAM as some kinda war tool.if my western brother guts then i sak them came see, Why Pakistan is call terror hub…. leftovers of there Glorious victory. if only you could imagine livening in 90′s in pakistan. i have lived it, and i can a sure you it was no FUN.
It was India who forced us to make N-bomb. A.Q. khan is Pakistan’s hero because he helped us realize our dream. dream of being consider equal to India. let me make it clear too Indians if India wants to be super power, we want to be super power. if they want peace, we want peace(for common knowledge India’s RAW is no less then paks ISI).
In short we want nothing more nothing else then equality.
water and Kashmir will never be problem. If India agree to make Kashmir a sovereign state.
In last i urge people to think we are not hateful nation, it just that we had problems which made us Look bad.

Posted by OM | Report as abusive
 

Myra,

It is interesting that you consider LeT to be akin to Hamas. Those of us that work in the business of looking at or handling these groups, tend to think of LeT as closer to Hezbollah. This is particularly the case after the Mumbai attacks. Like Hezbollah, LeT is largely foreign state backed (Pakistan for LeT, Iran for Hezbollah) with little indigenous support (both would largely be unsuccessful without their foreign backers). In fact, LeT has less support in Kashmir (hence the need to bring in large numbers of fighters from Pakistan) than Hezbollah in southern Lebanon. The targeting of foreigners (at the hotels in Mumbai) combined with the rise of an anti-semitic streak (attack on Chabad House has shades of Hezbollah in Argentina) is another indication that LeT is heading the way of Hezbollah. And to top it off, LeT’s growing international network (now well beyond anything that the Pakistanis can actually control) has a striking similarity to Hezbollah’s attempt at growing a global jihadist network.

Finally add to all this the growing links to Al Qaeda and you have a recipe for a global headache that the Pakistanis are scarcely able to control (if they did have control then why did Mumbai happen?). Yet, for a variety of reasons, Pakistani authorities are loathe to admit that they have largely lost control of this group. And they are even slower to admit to any desire to roll up this organization. I hope it works out for the Pakistanis, but they should realize that the world will be far less charitable the next time this group decides to target foreigners….and all this does not even include any discussion on what an obstacle to regional peace LeT has become.

Posted by Keith | Report as abusive
 

Myra,

I’m baffled by the debate, especially in the West, if LeT is dangerous enough to deserve attention from countries other than India. Until LeT kills Americans in the US, LeT will be kept on the back-burner.

Posted by Nikhil | Report as abusive
 

As an American, I feel sick to my stomach when our Administration has the audacity to call Pakistan an ‘Ally’. The simple truth is that Pakistan is a sleazy, double-crossing, nuclear-proliferating ‘Rogue State’ which has been in bed with our enemies for decades & has sponsored terrorism against us & our real allies i.e UK & India. Pakistan, while surviving on American aid, has used that money against us & our friends. It’s about time that Pakistan be told in no uncertain terms that it better stop playing it’s dirty games & destroy all terror outfits (including India specific ones like LeT) or else we cut off their life support (aid) & along with India go in there clean up the mess ourselves.

Posted by Daniel Harris | Report as abusive
 

India has never said that it wants to match somebody in the neighborhood. But the fact is that Pakistan was created on the basis of hate and competition among Hindus and Muslims.Pakistan does have ‘jihad’ as its national policy due to its being a theocratic Muslim state. Does Pakistan ever deny that?

Pakistanis on this forum are in a denial mode. No logic except brandishing nuclear weapons is being done by them always on every forum. My contention is that they are underestimating the inherent strength of India. India is not worried about Pakistan but more about China. I don’t know why Pakistani people want to match with a bigger country like India! Every person and every country has its own place. Pakistan needs to be made aware of its place. All the minorities, including Muslims of India are sick of a rogue state in our neighborhood and this time the new elected government has been entrusted with dealing with Pakistan conclusively. The ball lies in the court of Pakistan. Now, its up to them if they want to continue with their old tactics or behave like a responsible neighbor!

Posted by democratically | Report as abusive
 

OM: “Well human is a hate loving race, Why should we be any different. A teenage boy told me once.”
I think the teenage boy must be a Pakistani and he might have been referring to fellow humans living in Pakistan.

You said:”This phenomena of terrorism in relation of Muslims of Pakistan has its roots in soviet-afghan war. our mistake was that we did not consider dual nature of U.S.A.. We help them beat soviets and they gave us fools like Osama. we let them even use ISLAM as some kinda war tool”

You also said “It was India who forced us to make N-bomb. A.Q. khan is Pakistan’s hero because he helped us realize our dream. dream of being consider equal to India. let me make it clear too Indians if India wants to be super power, we want to be super power. if they want peace, we want peace(for common knowledge India’s RAW is no less then paks ISI).
In short we want nothing more nothing else then equality.”

Was it India that forced you to make the mistake of not considering the dual nature(as per your opinion) of USA? Was it India that forced you to help US beat soviets? Was it India that forced you to let US use ISLAM as some kinda war tool?
Why do you want to put the blame on India for you making the nuclear bomb? And why does your mindset always have to be ‘India-centric’? If India fails, do you also want to fail(since you are insisting on equality)?

You can make a hero out of a liar and thief, A Q Khan, since you think he made you ‘equal’ to India.

India is not going around the world with a begging bowl. Did you try to be equal in that sense?

The current Indian Prime Minister belongs to a minority community. And the previous President was a muslim,another minority community. Did you try to be equal in that sense?

And regarding your comment “PEOPLE! please at least try too get your history right.”, history says that Pakistan belongs to India

Posted by Sunny | Report as abusive
 

So OM,

You would have loved the USA to have kept on giving you aid and money to rebuild Afghanistan after the Soviets left, huh? If that is the case, then Afghaistan would no longer belong to the Afghanis, it would belong to the USA. What fault is it of the USA that you Jihadi, AK-47 wielding, glorious warriors could not sort yourselves out? Whatever happened to this Islamic bretheren with all the honor and respect? If you guys could DEFEAT the USSR out of Afghanistan, but could not sort yourselves out then that is no ones fault, but your own. Why did you not ask Saudi Arabia for assistance to rebuild Afghanistan?

As for A Q Khan being your glorious Pakistani hero…rubbish! He is a thief who STOLE centrifugal plans from the European company he was working for. Hero to you, but a thief to the rest of the world who went on to SELL nuclear technology to other rogue states (North Korea).

Kashmir is an integral part of India. You, Pakistanis and your beloved Jinnah got your piece of cake and ate it. Do not bother asking for more.

Posted by bulletfish | Report as abusive
 

A terrorist will never be out of reasons and justifications for what they do and like all the pakistanis here,even after kashmir is resolved,they will find some other reasons to hate india.
They want kashmir to be seperated from india not because they really care about them BUT because they want to avenge india for bangladesh.
New generation of pakistan will never believe the truth of 1971 war(Mass murder and rape of East pakistan women by Pak Army) because they have feeded with lies in their schools textbooks.
And above all self correction is the hardest thing to do in this world,and i am sure pakistan has not got the wisdom to do that….not in the near future.

Well in a way,its good for lots of indians who want pakistan to compete in other areas like economic and political stability,trade,science,culture,arts etc…

Keep them busy with ranting and shouting for kashmir…
and keep building india and try realizing its dream of becoming better in economics,global trade and investments,science and tech,space exploration,climate control etc..
Indians will continue to have no competition from pakistan at least on more sensible things.

 

Mr.OM writes ——-> “We help them beat soviets and they gave us fools like Osama. we let them even use ISLAM as some kinda war tool”.

Unless you diagnose the illness correctly, getting cured is impossible. The above statement is like saying you have common cold when in fact you have metastatic cancer. More truthful description would be your military dictator Zia vigorously implemented Islamization with public support. The public support came about in the hopes and dreams of Islamic empire, Islamic glory.

You willingly rented yourselves for billions of dollars of aid, for military gadgets. Most importantly you volunteered to be a willing puppet of USA in the dear hopes of “standing up to “ India or more specifically to be able to undermine India. Blaming the US indicates you are not planning to change course. India has come out stronger is a side story.

It is very popular amongst Pakistanis to say, overall they are a very moderate people and some elites did this and that. The evidence proves otherwise. Whether it was the massacre of Bengalis by the Pakistan army in 1971 or during the Kargil invasion, the “moderate” Pak public cheered the aggression until defeat came.

These days there are editorials in the Dawn newspaper titled the state and Jihad. Where were these editors even a year ago? Where were the ilk of “moderate” paks until they got exposed? Smugly saying Pakistan has nothing to do with terrorism in India. Where is the proof you would ask.

Indian people owe it a lot to Kasab who managed to get himself caught alive. Otherwise you will be writing today, there are “unsubstantiated” “claims” by ”Hindu extremists” that Pakistan did Mumbai!

Mr.OM writes—-> “If India agree to make Kashmir a sovereign state”

The odds for the above to happen are far less than the odds of Punjabi army agreeing to make Balochistan a soverign state.

 

Mr. Indian1127: “A country which had 23% minorities just 60 years ago has less than 3% minorities left and they want Kashmir, what happened to those minorities?”

The sub-continent was mostly Buddhist. Now Buddhist population is negligible. How many were forcibly converted to Hinduism? How many Buddhist monasteries were destroyed or converted to Hindu temples in your glorious country? You will not have an answer because all that history has been carefully removed. A religion simply cannot disappear from a vast land without violent means to achieve that end. Buddhism survived in Sri Lanka and other Asian nations. The only Buddhists in India are those who converted from the Hindu outcastes.

Just do not assume that your land has a glorious history. Do not look into history because it has enough records to expose your ugly side as well. In the case of Pakistan most of the minorities either converted to Islam for practical reasons or moved out of the country. No one was slaughtered or forced as you are conveying.

 

Daniel Harris
” It’s about time that Pakistan be told in no uncertain terms that it better stop playing it’s dirty games & destroy all terror outfits (including India specific ones like LeT) or else we cut off their life support (aid) & along with India go in there clean up the mess ourselves.”

You want to try to take matters in your hands? I dont think it would work. Just concentrate on an face saving exit strategy from Iraq and Afghanistan first. A nuclear armed 170 million strong Pakistan is a far cry for you guys. Pakistan too is reaching limits, we know it is official American policy to prop up India as a strategic ally in the region. Pakistan too will not run out of options ever.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Umair you said:

“Daniel Harris
” It’s about time that Pakistan be told in no uncertain terms that it better stop playing it’s dirty games & destroy all terror outfits (including India specific ones like LeT) or else we cut off their life support (aid) & along with India go in there clean up the mess ourselves.”

You want to try to take matters in your hands? I dont think it would work. Just concentrate on an face saving exit strategy from Iraq and Afghanistan first. A nuclear armed 170 million strong Pakistan is a far cry for you guys. Pakistan too is reaching limits, we know it is official American policy to prop up India as a strategic ally in the region. Pakistan too will not run out of options ever.
- Posted by Umair ”

So Umair, are you advocating that if Pakistan does not get its way, and the USA pushes Pak around too much for their own taste, that Pakistan should just nuke India unprovoked and pre-emptively, for the heck of it? Are you implying that the threat of a Pakistani “COLD START” nuklear attack on India? Then what are you saying? What situation would allow Pakistan to nuke India? please clarify, you keep using the nuclear armed card here. Are you making a threat of a nxklear attack against the State of India, if you get pushed and prodded by the USA too much? Please clarify.

Pick your words carefully. Remember that India has a non first use capability.

Your flagrant use of the word “nuclear” in these blogs does not bode well for your intelligence. Nuclear capability will not protect Pakistan from the wrath of a back-stabbed USA, or home grown terrorism.

The American voter ship will want reparations for being lied to and used and their hard earned tax payer money being used to make your precious nukes.

For your information, Pakistan is already being bent over the barrel many times, the line up is out the door, my friend.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive
 

Umair says “Just concentrate on an face saving exit strategy from Iraq and Afghanistan first. A nuclear armed 170 million strong Pakistan is a far cry for you guys. Pakistan too is reaching limits, we know it is official American policy to prop up India as a strategic ally in the region. Pakistan too will not run out of options ever.”

Have you ever concentrated on a face-saving exit from being a puppet? Ever concentrated on a face saving exit from begging? In fact, you are surviving on America’s aid and still you still dare to pass comments on them.

Pakistan may be having lot of options(selling the stolen nuclear technology could be one) but the rest of the world is running out of options. Most of the terrorist activities have ‘Made in Pakistan’ tag.

Posted by Sunny | Report as abusive
 

Mr.Umair writes —> “A nuclear armed 170 million strong Pakistan is a far cry for you guys. Pakistan too is reaching limits”

It is very discourteous to talk this way to some one who is paying to feed your people.

Talking rudley to people who pay for your food and existence on anonymous blogs and sending ambassadors and generals to plead for more money further erodes your standing. May be that doesn’t matter to you.

 

Umair bhai,

I sincerely appreciate your service to our country. You have handled all the Indians on this forum so well. It takes just one intelligent Pakistani to handle many imbeciles.

Like you have said, it is time we got out of our dependency on the US and its allies. We have China as the emerging regional power and our staunchest ally. Our nation should look forward. We need to build a strong Islamic alliance with all Central Asian countries and Iran. Pakistan can provide the necessary military training and technology. Islamic nations should stick together and form an economic and military alliance. We can help each other better. Leave the Americans to belly dance with Indians.

 

Mohd Anjum:

“The sub-continent was mostly Buddhist. Now Buddhist population is negligible. How many were forcibly converted to Hinduism? How many Buddhist monasteries were destroyed or converted to Hindu temples in your glorious country? You will not have an answer because all that history has been carefully removed.”

This is another lie, Buddhist are considered Hindus in India for centuries and Siddh?rtha Gautama a Hindu was the historical founder of Buddhism. Unlike Muslims invaders who just demolished everything in name of Islam, The flow between faiths was such that for hundreds of years, almost all Buddhist temples, including the ones at Ajanta, were built under the rule and patronage of Hindu kings. Exiled Buddhist leader “DALAI LAMA” lives in India along with thousands of Buddhist.

There has been never a conflict in Hindus and Buddhist.

You asked “How many Buddhist monasteries were destroyed or converted to Hindu temples in your glorious country?”

Answer is NONE. Hinduism is not forced on anyone.If you have data present it. Otherwise Please shut.

You speak of Buddhism, Let me tell you something,It was Pakistan supported Taliban, who demolish Buddha Statues in Afghanistan. Pakistan never said anything against the Demolition. You know why ? because Buddhist are not Muslims.

Posted by singh | Report as abusive
 

You want to try to take matters in your hands? I dont think it would work. Just concentrate on an face saving exit strategy from Iraq and Afghanistan first. A nuclear armed 170 million strong Pakistan is a far cry for you guys. Pakistan too is reaching limits, we know it is official American policy to prop up India as a strategic ally in the region. Pakistan too will not run out of options ever.
- Posted by Umair

I would not be so confident. Nuclear weapons will not save you from economic devastation and the starvation that will follow, should NATO and the US leave before the job is done in Afghanistan. Pakistan will be left with the Afghan mess…but this time one more of its own making. Except this time around, there will be no aid coming if the world perceives that Pakistan cost them the war in Afghanistan. Not only that, but how happy do you think allies like China will be when the Afghanistan starts churning out jihadis for its backyard and the rest of the play areas in Central Asia? How certain are you that they will always support Pakistan to keep India off-kilter? And are you that certain that they would risk their own security to keep a Global Jihadi incubator in operation?

Beyond that, keep in mind that once NATO forces leave the region, pretty much all of Pakistan will be fair game for the US when it comes to preserving their security. They won’t think twice about sending cruise missiles down a Lahore side street if they think there’s a jihadi outfit there planning another 9/11.

In short, your bluster is a nightmare for the world, and the end of your country as you know it should it come to pass. You should not be hoping for a “face-saving” exit from Afghanistan. You should be hoping that the when the west leaves there’s a stable and strong Afghanistan in place. And you should be praying that your government and security services are actually helping to bring that outcome about and are not hopefully not undermining those who are actually trying to do good work there.

Last point…”Pakistan is reaching its limits”. Well so is the west. Had the US given 10 billion to any other country, they would have got the heads of all of the Taliban and AQ’s senior leadership on a platter. Instead, the Quetta Shura has meetings a few km from a Pakistani Staff College while the ISI keeps telling the west that they don’t know where these guys are. So do they not know what’s going on inside Pakistan or do they not care? That money is the only thing keeping millions of Pakistanis from starving. If the west fails in Afghanistan, you can be sure they won’t really care how many Pakistanis starve. If this comes to pass, I expect that quite a few Pakistani nukes will end up on the black market, to line the pockets of a few SPD and higher command generals.

The moment of truth is coming for Pakistan sooner rather than later. I hope it chooses to become a stabilizing force in the region instead of an economic basket case with 170 million starving people clutching tightly to a few nuclear weapons with elites yammering on ‘parity with India’, ‘being a leading Islamic Republic’, etc. It can have the rapprochement of Germany and France after WWII or it can be another North Korea. Which future would you rather have for your homeland?

Posted by Keith | Report as abusive
 

Mohammed Anjum,

Cut your rant. Buddhists were never a majority in India and they were never forced to convert to any religion in the country. Contrary to your argument, Buddhists are thriving in India and many more continue to arrive from Tibet.

Posted by Nikhil | Report as abusive
 

@The sub-continent was mostly Buddhist. Now Buddhist population is negligible. How many were forcibly converted to Hinduism?”
-Mohammed Anjum

Mohammed Anjum: Why don’t your revered Muhammad bin Qasim and Mahmud of Ghazni and other such goons who ultimately ended self-governance of Buddists in Central Asia through all sorts of means.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

@ Anjum
“The sub-continent was mostly Buddhist. Now Buddhist population is negligible. How many were forcibly converted to Hinduism? How many Buddhist monasteries were destroyed or converted to Hindu temples in your glorious country? You will not have an answer because all that history has been carefully removed.”

Please go through the link before you blame Hinduism for destruction of Buddhism. Get off your madrassa education and find some neutral source.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_of_ Hinduism_in_Pakistan

Though the reference shows the decline of Hinduism in pakistan, it has a small paragraph under the heading “Islam”, and proves what a blatant liar you are. Show us a reference that said Hinduism was responsible

“The only Buddhists in India are those who converted from the Hindu outcastes. ”

The said reference and quote was spoken by Dr B R Ambedkar who had worked for the benefit of outcasts in India.

Quote: “there can be no doubt that the fall of Buddhism was due to the invasions of the Muslims.”[18] He wrote: “Thus the origin of the word ["but", Persian for "idol"] indicates that in the Muslim mind idol worship had come to be identified with the religion of Buddha. To the Muslims they were one and the same thing. The mission to break idols thus became the mission to destroy Buddhism. Islam destroyed Buddhism not only in India but wherever it went. Bactria, Parthia, Afghanistan, Gandhara and Chinese Turkestan (…) in all these countries Islam destroyed Buddhism.” : Unquote

Now can you show me a link from “neutral” sources to refute this claim? Or should i think you are so deluded by your madrassa brainwash that you cannot fathom the fact of atrocities by your rulers. Get a life.

Posted by wooferswitch | Report as abusive
 

@ Umair

“You want to try to take matters in your hands? I dont think it would work. Just concentrate on an face saving exit strategy from Iraq and Afghanistan first. A nuclear armed 170 million strong Pakistan is a far cry for you guys. Pakistan too is reaching limits, we know it is official American policy to prop up India as a strategic ally in the region. Pakistan too will not run out of options ever.”

Dont try and test the patience of the US. Stop ranting about your nuclear weapons. Just listed out the nuclear prowess of the US for a reference (an unofficial count may be more).
You guys have not dropped one yet. So we dunno if the stolen technology of thief A Q Khan, really works. They already dropped two.

Nuclear program start date October 21, 1939
First nuclear weapon test July 16, 1945
First fusion weapon test November 1, 1952
Last nuclear test September 23, 1992
Largest yield test 15 Mt (March 1, 1954)
Total tests 1,054 detonations
Peak stockpile 32,193 warheads (1966)
Current stockpile 4,075 active, 5,535 total (est.)[1]
Maximum missile range 13,000 km (8,100 mi) (land)
12,000 km (7,500 mi) (sub)

And this time don’t expect member countries to back you if you get nuked. And thank your stars that the US is a responsible country, not a rogue nation with a begging bowl like yours. You guys have already run out of options. Stop throwing tantrums and behave responsibly. My perspective is that their exit strategy was foiled because they teamed up with the wrong “ally”. When they do realize that (which of course is coming in due course), you guys are in the dumps.
And of course it is better for the US to have India as the strategic ally. It would benefit them more. I think they should team up with Iran and Afghanistan too. It would be even better to flush Osama out.

Posted by wooferswitch | Report as abusive
 

y dont pakistan ask china to give back their land that is under chinese control.y should india give away kashmir . THE JEWEL OF INDIA.about the naxals y dont india attack the source that is suppling them weapons and training.

Posted by rajen maharaj | Report as abusive
 

Mr genious Mohammad anjum writes,
The sub-continent was mostly Buddhist. Now Buddhist population is negligible. How many were forcibly converted to Hinduism? How many Buddhist monasteries were destroyed or converted to Hindu temples in your glorious country.

Mr lanjum,
I am sure you are talking about conversions before independence,so you must be aware that this amazing land(subcontinent) was not having a rouge state pakistan before independence,and everything was controlled by British fr 200 odd years and Mugals who came from central asia.They were the ones who converted lots of hindus to muslims like you,but now you think your ancestors were born that way.The truth is your ancesters were hindus who were forcefully converted into muslims like you.They were indian muslims.
Indian subcontinent was always habitated by hindus which you can crosscheck in ancient history and civilisation books.
But we were always a pluralistic society from ages….accomodating various people of different races and culture.
Don’t think that you can get away(with all the good things) from the 5000 years old history of this place just because you have your own land for 50 odd years.So whenever you speak something about india,take into account that your great grand parents,grand parents and possibly your parent were indians.i am sure when you ask your parents their country of birth you will get an answer that is going to haunt you and your coming generations for years to come.(remember,There was no porkistan on the face of this earth,ONLY ONE INDIA).
Every place has some good things,a few bad things and thats the way it was and it will be.
Nobody says we were or are perfect but we try and aspire to be reasonable to the world and espeacially our fellow ex-indians who from last 60 odd years call themselves pakistani(and rightfully so).
MAY WISDOM PREVAILS….

 

Just do not assume that your land has a glorious history. Do not look into history because it has enough records to expose your ugly side as well. In the case of Pakistan most of the minorities either converted to Islam for practical reasons or moved out of the country. No one was slaughtered or forced as you are conveying.

- Posted by mohammed Anjum

Mr Anjam

Unlike a typical pakistani I dont live in the past, future is where we are focussed. The persecution of Buddists that you talk about has happened in the period between 400 CE and 1000 CE. I dont see how you attribute those acts to the current generation of Indians just because its suits your purpose?

You also conviniently chose to overlook the revival of Buddhists in India in RECENT TIMES.

http://202.28.52.45/vesak50/article/pdf_ file/ChangingDemographyofBuddhistPopulat ioninI.pdf

Stop using history as an excuse, its your country current mindset and behaviour that I abhor. Minorities in your country are being persecuted for thier faith, such behaviour in the 21 century is unacceptable.

Even today there are secratarin conflicts in Khurram agency between Shia and Sunii and it has been carrying on for the last 60+ years.

For some reason your people believe that your religion and your sub-sect is superior to everyone elses and you wont stop untill everyone accepts your faith by whatever means necessary(I refer to pakistan’s version of Islam we are lucky to have sensible Indian muslims).

Despite all the rehtoric you have shown absolutely nothing to substantiate your claims of superiority and infact provided evidence to the contrary (in the past and in RECENT TIMES).

Can explain what you mean when you say “Pakistan most of the minorities either converted to Islam for practical reasons or moved out of the country.”

What are those practical reasons???(saving ones life is a practical reason too) Why did they feel the need to move out??

Refer to this website for gleeful news of how minorities are treated in pakistan in RECENT TIMES
http://www.christianmonitor.org/

Also I specifically mentioned not to respond in snippets, if you are unable to answer all the questions by yourself, then by all means ask others to help you form a group think about it together for as long as it takes and try and answer the questions honestly.

If you by any chance miraculously realise that you are on the wrong side of the argument, then by all means feel free to mend your ways and join the rest of the civilized world.

Its the FUTURE that holds promise of growth, peace and presperity.

Posted by indian1127 | Report as abusive
 

“Umair bhai,

I sincerely appreciate your service to our country. You have handled all the Indians on this forum so well. It takes just one intelligent Pakistani to handle many imbeciles.

Like you have said, it is time we got out of our dependency on the US and its allies. We have China as the emerging regional power and our staunchest ally. Our nation should look forward. We need to build a strong Islamic alliance with all Central Asian countries and Iran. Pakistan can provide the necessary military training and technology. Islamic nations should stick together and form an economic and military alliance. We can help each other better. Leave the Americans to belly dance with Indians.”

Wow Anjum, you started showing your hidden pakistani and jihadi colours. “Imbeciles”??? How low can you get? You get out of your dependancy on US and its allies and your begging bowl is gonna be as clean as a slate.

Islamic alliance with Iran? Are you joking? Your people massacred them just because they were from a different sect. I think Iran is closer to India than you guys.

And you are talking about china? Dont forget your beloved Zardari came back with the empty bowl the last time he went there. He dint even get to meet the high command.

You form an islamic alliance of what not… people don’t care as long as you don’t blow up their backyards using jihad. Of course the Americans can belly dance with the Indians, at least they have something in common which is alien to you. Democracy.

Look like you people are deluded and fed your madrassa education to such an extent that you have stopped thinking logically. Wish common sense prevails upon ordinary pakistanis unlike you people, for the good of south asian region and for the entire world.

Posted by wooferswitch | Report as abusive
 

Keith:
“You should be hoping that the when the west leaves there’s a stable and strong Afghanistan in place. And you should be praying that your government and security services are actually helping to bring that outcome about and are not hopefully not undermining those who are actually trying to do good work there.”

-Keith, DG ISPR Maj. Gen Athar Abbas in a recent interview with CNN clearly said the situation in Baluchistan is due to some one working out of Kabul. NATO and US are harboring the enemies of Pakistan right under their noses in Kabul then it is expected from Pakistan to cooperate. Remember ISI is the veteran of Soveit-Afghan war, history could repeat itself yet again. Pushtuns must be given representation in national matters in Afghanistan, kick out the Indians from Afghanistan. Again propaganda against Pakistan’s nuclear program is surfacing, mercaneries are being trained to attack Pakistan’s nuclear sites. All sorts of propaganda and criticism is being labeled against Pakistan. So much talk of Pakistan being a rouge state and you guys are still so dependent on Pakistan Army and ISI. If you dont stop harboring the enemies of Pakistan in Kabul, Islamabad can also make some dangerous plans against you.

and it is Gen. Abbas clearly said there is limit to the extent Pakistan can support the mission in Afghanistan. Believe me today the success of US/Canada and NATO in Afghanistan pretty much depends on Pakistan support. That is why you always make Pakistan an escape goat for coalition faliures in Afghanistan and then lecture us to accept India as a regional policeman. First get your priorities straight, decide if you are true ally of Pakistan and than ask for Pakistan’s cooperation. Decide who is your greater friend, India or Pakistan. India is a big market for economic gain, but if you want security you want good relations with Pakistan too. If you realize Pakistan as an ally we will willingly help you, otherwise we know how to deal with anti-Pakistan mercaneries in Kabul.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

well i can tell one thing i don’t like fact-less discussions.if u like India is better than Pakistan..its fine, i respect your opinion.
“Time is the master of all judges,it divulge only truth “.
few things i like to make very clear here. A.Q khan is no thief, Why? because he didn’t stole centrifuges. if he stole them then why he was not caught, interrogated or blamed in 70′s when he supposedly done it.WHY after 20 years…..the answer is simple he didn’t do it. And even in 2000 he was blamed for giving the technology to other, which even he regrets.
all who read my post Pakistan is a reality and we are here going to stay here for a while. we have a same enemy(Osama-tons, i didn’t use Taliban because Taliban means “students”, Unfortunately some of them are misguided). your behavior is making it difficult for us to support you. when you say it Pakistan’s fault you are just making more osama’s. if u think by tell us to do more will win you a war then stop dreaming. do you have any idea how many muslims has died over the last decade????

Posted by OM | Report as abusive
 

Mr. Singh: “You asked “How many Buddhist monasteries were destroyed or converted to Hindu temples in your glorious country?”

Answer is NONE. Hinduism is not forced on anyone.If you have data present it. Otherwise Please shut.”

Here is a reference:

http://www.ambedkar.org/buddhism/K_Jaman adas_Proves_Tirupati_Temple_As_A_Buddhis t_Shrine.htm

Religions simply do not disappear like that. Conversions happen both by peaceful and violent means. Kings and emperors play a huge role in it. I am giving just one example since this discussion is changing its course. Just because history has been cleaned out, it does not mean that things did not happen. Again all you Indians act as though everything was golden in your country and try to make others like cruel monsters. First dig up and learn your history first. I have been following a lot of things inside India from one end to another and I do not see anything that will show you guys in great light. You are just as ordinary as anyone else.

 

A nuclear armed 170 million strong Pakistan is a far cry for you guys. Pakistan too is reaching limits, we know it is official American policy to prop up India as a strategic ally in the region. Pakistan too will not run out of options ever.
- Posted by Umair

I understand that you’re a Pakistani because like most of your comrades (my humble observation), you seem to be low on facts & reality and high on worthless octane & meaningless rah rah. If you think that we’re incapable of cleaning up the mess in your terror-infested rogue/failed country, you’re truly delusional & ignorant. If we really want to, we can reduce Pakistan to ashes within no time but the truth is that we don’t wanna get our hands dirty at this time so we’ve hired your army to do it for us. Besides, we don’t need to act militarily. All we have to do is cut off your life-support (aid), impose severe sanctions & trade embargoes & officially declare you a terror-sponsoring ‘rogue nation’ (which is no secret) & then you will see your nation of 170 million radicalized, uneducated, uncivilized, unemployed & impoverished people slit each others throats & choke to death. I really don’t think you guys wanna be in the situation. All you have to show for in your 60 years of existence is: Chinese nukes made from stolen technology & that is all that most of you Pakistanis keep chest thumping about. No progress, no economy, no literacy, no other positive achievement to speak of. Just those stupid nukes, that’s all.
As far as India is concerned, it is our natural ally. A progressive & rapidly developing country with genuine democratic & secular credentials. We don’t need to prop India up because it’s taking it’s rightful place in the world on it’s own merit. If you Pakistanis really wanna do something positive for your country, change your belligerent attitude & befriend India because you guys surely cal learn a lot from your neighbor.
(PS: Pakistanis, please don’t bother responding cuz I don’t have the time to waste by engaging in you ignorant & senseless rhetoric. thanks)

Posted by Daniel Harris | Report as abusive
 

@Global Watcher and Keith
Fate of Pakistan will be decided By us not you. we are a great nation and we will prove it.
Mr umair is very correct in pointing out the exit strategy. First Great Britain then soviet union and (now U.S.A).!!! i hope my American Brothers understand sooner then latter that Afghanistan is graveyard of super powers..!!!

Posted by OM | Report as abusive
 

Also read up about the Thuggee cult in India that killed millions of people in the name of Kali. Read works by William Sleeman. So much for a glorious past.

 

Mohammed Anjum
@How many Buddhist monasteries were destroyed or converted to Hindu temples in your glorious country?”

–Taliban chief Mullah Omar, Pakistan’s friend, intentionally dynamited and destroyed the Buddhist statues in 2001 after the Taliban government declared that they were “idols” ( forbidden under Sharia law).Did Pakistan say a word or kept quiet due to some alliance? After all they are on the list of UNESCO World Heritage Site.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

Since the discussion has gone way off track (from Laskhar e Taiba to Buddhism) I am closing comments on this post.

Posted by Myra MacDonald | Report as abusive
 
  •