Pakistan: Now or Never?
Perspectives on Pakistan
India and Pakistan: looking beyond the rhetoric
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With so much noise around these days in the relationship between India and Pakistan it is hard to make out a clear trend. Politicians and national media in both countries have reverted to trading accusations, whether it be about their nuclear arsenals, Pakistani action against Islamist militants blamed for last year’s Mumbai attacks or alleged violations of a ceasefire on the Line of Control dividing Kashmir. Scan the headlines on a Google news search on India and Pakistan and you get the impression of a relationship fraught beyond repair.
Does that mean that attempts to find a way back into peace talks broken off after the Mumbai attacks are going nowhere? Not necessarily. In the past the background noise of angry rhetoric has usually obscured real progress behind the scenes, and this time around may be no exception.
MORE TALKS
The Hindu newspaper reported on Sept 1 that Prime Minister Manmohan Singh may meet either the president or prime minister of Pakistan on the sidelines of a Commonwealth summit in Trinidad in November. It said the Indian government was already working out what strategy to adopt to make any meeting meaningful, while also pushing Pakistan to take more action against Pakistan-based militant groups in order to prevent another Mumbai-style attack.
There is no confirmation of that Trinidad meeting, and nor is there likely to be for some time, but The Hindu in recent months has proved to be well informed about the prime minister’s approach to Pakistan. Singh himself laid out his plans in a speech in parliament in July in which he promised a “step by step” approach to dialogue – effectively meaning that India would talk to Pakistan while refusing for now to reopen a formal peace process broken off after the Mumbai attacks.
The two countries’ foreign ministers are also expected to talk on the sidelines of the U.N. General Assembly in New York this month, although it is unclear whether this would be preceded by a meeting of foreign secretaries in line with an agreement reached in July that the top diplomats of India and Pakistan should meet ”as often as necessary”. The Hindu said the foreign secretaries would meet in New York; more recent newspaper reports have called this into question.
DISMANTLING JAMMU AND KASHMIR?
In the meantime, both countries are edging forward in their approach to the two parts of Jammu and Kashmir which they control. (After their first war in 1947/48 the former princely state was divided into the regions of Ladakh, Kashmir and Jammu which are held by India, and the regions of Gilgit and Baltistan along with an area known as Azad Kashmir which are held by Pakistan.)
According to Praveen Swami, a Kashmir expert at The Hindu, the Indian government has been holding secret talks over the summer with the main political separatist alliance in Kashmir, the All Parties Hurriyat Conference, to try to agree an approach to bring peace to the region. ”Perhaps most important,” he said, “Pakistan is being asked to endorse the talks.”
Over on its side of the border, the Pakistan government has decided to grant limited autonomy to Gilgit and Baltistan. It had previously run the region directly from Islamabad, much to the irritation of local people who felt they had been deprived of their political rights to the kind of self-rule given to Pakistani provinces.
To digress briefly into history, the princely state of Jammu and Kashmir was created in the 19th century by Hindu Dogra rulers expanding outwards from their base in Jammu and comprising people of different linguistic, ethnic and religious groups. Were it not for the tremendous importance given to Jammu and Kashmir by both India and Pakistan – both of which claim the state in full – it might have broken up naturally years ago.
The people of Gilgit and Baltistan never felt much loyalty to the former maharajah of Jammu and Kashmir and have long complained that they have been held hostage to the Kashmir dispute (you hear the same complaints from Ladakhis on the Indian side.)
So do the parallel moves on both India and Pakistan suggest both countries are taking small steps towards an eventual dismantling of the former princely state which would allow a settlement of the long-running Kashmir dispute? Not quite – Pakistan has been careful to say it is not giving full provincial status to Gilgit and Baltistan. There are also historical grounds for treating the region differently from other parts of Jammu and Kashmir, which date back to partition and before.
Yet given that anything to do with Jammu and Kashmir is potentially explosive, reactions to the Pakistan government’s move on Gilgit and Baltistan have so far been relatively muted. Dawn newspaper said that the decision stuck a balance between meeting the aspirations of its people for political rights and maintaining the region’s status as disputed territory. The Daily Times said that the people of Gilgit and Baltistan had been held hostage to the Kashmir dispute for long enough and should eventually be incorporated as a full province of Pakistan. On the Indian side, I’ve seen criticism from the opposition Bharatiya Janata Party but nothing from the government.
A roadmap for peace sketched out by Singh and former president Pervez Musharraf in 2007 effectively acknowledged the division of the state by accepting there would be no exchange of territory between the two countries – although both pledged to try to make borders irrelevant. That agreement was shelved when Musharraf’s own political fortunes nosedived. But are the governments of India and Pakistan nonetheless following some of the signposts in that roadmap despite all the angry rhetoric currently dominating their relationship? And if so, how far are they exchanging information about their plans?
WILD CARDS
Just in case the above looks too rosy a view on the prospects of progress in relations between India and Pakistan, it is probably worth remembering it can all go wrong, particularly if there is another major militant attack in India.
The other wild card comes from the transformation of the political landscape in India with the implosion of the opposition right-wing BJP initially triggered by the furore over a book on Pakistan’s founder Mohammad Ali Jinnah by former senior BJP leader Jaswant Singh. So far the jury remains out on how the political drama will play out. Analysts variously predict a collapse of the right, or its opposite – a revival of the right as the BJP returns to its hardline anti-Pakistan Hindu nationalist roots in an attempt to reinvent itself after losing two consecutive general elections. Until the political landscape becomes clearer, India’s Congress-led government is likely to tread cautiously.
(Reuters file photos: Prime Minister Manmohan Singh in Siachen; Singh with Pakistan President Asif Ali Zardari in Russia; Dal lake in Srinagar; Drass on the Line of Control; former Indian foreign minister Jaswant Singh)
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It seems that Pakistan is the only party who seems to be moving beyond the rhetoric, even if unwillingly.
India and the United Nations need to uphold the pledge to hold a plebiscite so that the people of this region can
decide their fate and autonomy
Some hope if we ever know who controls Pakistan!
Saudi King invites Pakistan leaders and Chief Justice to Jeddah to discuss Musharraf trial
http://www.sindhtoday.net/news/1/47506.h tm
Nice refreshing article and the leaders who struggled for freedom from British never would have wanted our present to be this way… Being neighbours it is inevitable that our destinies would constantly cross over each others path. Unless there is vision of peace & properity itune with the times and leaders not choosing to stay in the wrong side of the history, there would be wrong decisions. My simple advice – get over it and get real. Human minds evolve, clear the neanderthals…
Pakistan and Peace!!! Like the sun rising from west!!!
What is ISI going to do? How will army justify the fat secret budget and the secret projects? Are the thousands of militants and their mentors going to Mecca for permanent pilligrimmage?
“He said the Taliban agreed to take care of the defence of the western border, as long as the Pakistan army was needed on the eastern front with India?”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/82 39031.stm
What a blatantly one-sided article this is. But then what do you expect from a foreign news agency, which is one of the instruments of Western control over world media.
THe BJP’s return to its hardline anti-Pakistan Hindu nationalist roots indeed!
The author is unaware that it was the NDA Government under the BJP that began the peace process and composite dialogue with Pakistan!
Why not get a better informed author to write?
‘On Noises from India’-The stand of India is endorsed by international community,especially by the US,UK,France,Russia( security council members,barring China, which has a stake in Pakistan) on the following.
-That Pakistan is training militants in its part of Kashmir and also within Pakistan.
-fermenting unrest in India area of Kashmir.
- infiltrates into Indian border
-is hiding Interpol Red noticed criminals like Dawood of ,Memon and Mehsud.
-misusing the missiles supplied by US to handle terrorists for use against India by modifying the design of the weapon
-circulates fake Indian currency through Nepal Prince
-ISI of Pakistan had a hand in Bombay Hotel blast
Is this noise or fact?
Regarding Gilgit and Balitsan and partition.-you have got details wrong.Refer ‘Freedom at Midnight’ by La Pierre.
Regarding autonomy for these regions-In Pakistan all area are de facto autonomous regions as on date as there is no central authority and nobody knows who is calling the shots,ISI,Army,Civilian Govt. or terrorists.
However hard India tries, we are unable make a headway mainly because in Pakistan as nobody seems to be in control, you do not know whom to negotiate with nor are you sure whether commitments will be honored.
As fo as BJP is concerned ,when in power, BJP tried to finalize agreement with Musharaff; he got cold feet and ran away in the midst of talks ,after holding a Press Conference in India.
Tell us what can be done?
Pakistan blame Lanka for Lahore attack: Gilani
http://cricketnext.in.com/news/pakistan- blame-lanka-for-lahore-attack/43732-13.h tml
Are they ever going to blame themselves or their cuddly state sponsored punjabi terrorists? Does Gilani know what goes on in his country or is he supposed to blame others no matter what the evidences show? Did he not see attack video footage? What kind of PM is this dude?
“Siddiqui is a daughter of Pakistan,” she said.
According to her U.S. indictment, items found in Siddiqui’s handbag at the time of her arrest included notes on making explosives and chemical weapons as well as descriptions of a “mass casualty attack” that listed various New York City landmarks.
Pakistan Prime Minister Yusuf Raza Gilani met with Siddiqui’s sister at the prime minister’s residence last month and assured Pakistan would seek Siddiqui’s release from U.S. detention and had approved $2 million for her defense, Pakistani media reported.
http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticN ews/idUSTRE5816E120090902
What about the sons of Pakistan in Mumbai jail or Morgue for Mumbai attacks?
Pak refusing to take bodies of 26/11 terrorists
http://www.ptinews.com/news/224539_Pak-r efusing-to-take-bodies-of-26-11-terroris ts
who the (hell) is ‘Alice’???
Topic is “Pakistan: Now or Never?”
How do u always manage to sneak India in between?
Alice,
The UN plebiscite option designed in Aug 1948 is outdated and cannot be implemented. Why? Because, Pakistan never acted on the conditions of the plebiscite which was first to withdraw all of its troops and buffer forces – the mujahadin – from the kingdom of Jammu and Kashmir; which it never did. Pakistan also unilaterally gave away Aksai Chin without asking the people of J&K or without talking to the UN.
Alice Says:
India and the United Nations need to uphold the pledge to hold a plebiscite so that the people of this region can
decide their fate and autonomy
If someone wants to tome-travel, sure ..
Steps need to be taken for a plebiscite:
1. Cancel 1972 Simla agreement
2. Cancel 1962 Indus water treaty
3. Pakistan demilitarize all occupied Kashmir
Then we reach conditions needed for plebiscite
Pakistan can fulfill the first three conditions.. doesn’t need any help.
@ S.V. Ramanan: You said: “Regarding Gilgit and Balitsan and partition.-you have got details wrong.Refer ‘Freedom at Midnight’ by La Pierre.”
Can you be more specific? I don’t have my copy of Freedom at Midnight here. What detail specifically do you think is wrong?
@Rikita Goswani: You write: “The author is unaware that it was the NDA Government under the BJP that began the peace process and composite dialogue with Pakistan!”
That’s a shame that you make such an easy assumption of ignorance. But then you are presumably also aware that the backchannel diplomacy was started under Vajpayee, and that the 2003 ceasefire was agreed before the composite dialogue began? This is precisely my point: that what you see on the surface does not always reflect what is going on behind the scenes.
@Nikhil – a small point on Pakistan ceding land to China since it comes up a lot. The 1963 agreement ceding the Shaksgam Valley clearly says that it is pending a final settlement of the Kashmir dispute.
Myra
To plebiscite supporters:
1. Lets do a plebiscite in Balochistan and FATA First.
2. Let Pakistan ask the same publicly from China for Tibet, E. Turkistan and Mongolian.
Why! What’s wrong? Plebiscite is not a good model for them. Plebiscite only applies to India???
King of Kashmir signed an accession treaty with India. Can Pakistan show it’s accession treaty with Kashmir or Balochistan? Can China show it’s accession treaty with Tibet or E. Turkistan?
Myra Says:
@Nikhil – a small point on Pakistan ceding land to China since it comes up a lot. The 1963 agreement ceding the Shaksgam Valley clearly says that it is pending a final settlement of the Kashmir dispute.
Myra,
Now I am sure, you are a Pakistan sympathizer. Indian anger towards Mumbai attacks that killed 170 people is rhetoric to you.
Anyway, we can deal with all Talibans and sympathizers. You missed Nikhil’s point! Did Pakistan consult with Kashmiris before ceding that area to China? Can Pakistan bring back that area? If so, (which is unrealistic) let Pakistan do this first before any meaningful arguments can begin.
The truth is China took that area forcibly from Pakistan. Initially, Pakistan thought of going to war against China, but later changed mind and asked China for all kinds of help against India.
I do not think, now we need any expert or pundit to tell where and how the relationship between two countries is going towards. Obviously, it is not going towards peace particularly after 26/11 and the developments took place so far after 26/11. As long as ISI and Pakistani army are going to remain the key players behind scenes, political establishment in Pakistan will never seriously work with India to put an end to cross-boarder terrorism and find practical solutions for various contentitous issues with India.
After all, you cannot talk peace having gun in your hand…however Pakistan is used to this attitude. The external players – US and China, will keep pleasing Pakistan army with arms and ammunition aids. US, I think, will never be confident fighting a war against Al-Quida and parties without the help of Pakistan army, and for China, it is in its interest to keep fuel the fire.
Some commenters are stuck with rhetoric.
“Pakistan never acted on the conditions of the plebiscite which was first to withdraw all of its troops and buffer forces”
Did India do otherwise? Withdrawal can not be unilateral. There are numerous UN resolutions, how many of them ever honored by India? Now we are talking about world media consensus, what about formal consensus of international body called UN general assembly? Because India in the changed-world weight more than it deserved due to western fear of Chinese influence and desperate search for counter influence. It does not make much difference for Pakistan.
Pakistan is to stay no matter what. If Kashmir dispute remains, there will be continued hostility in the region. Sane and rational minds should go beyond rhetoric; attempt to resolve the issue with mutual compromise and get beyond for the sake of regional development. India has more at stake than Pakistan does. Even complete destruction of Pakistan would tend to compromise Indian future. Think what it look like with seven million refugees armed and angry. That is what Pakistan got for three decades after Afghanistan been destabilized. Can India afford the similar situation on its border? I don’t think so. Rational thinking requires acting now and going beyond rhetoric.
This is a usual article by Myra. I have a feel this Indo Pak topic will be a endless time pass for writers like Myra, Sanjeev and many many more writers. People like Jaswant, Advani and numerous other sickulars will also take a chance to poke in their ludicrous statement that Jinnah was secular. Bloggers will construct/ deconstruct theories and end up with nothing. However, there was one new thing in this post… “With so much noise around these days in the relationship between India and Pakistan it is hard to make out a clear trend.”… I am interested to know when there was a clear trend in Indo Pak relations? In my humble opinion, the current trend is as clear as it had been always… A ping pong game of words to be broken temporarily by events like Indo Pak battle of 1947, 1965, 1971, 1999 and numerous countless acts of terrorism and skirmishes which appear and disappear. What both countries need is a good decisive war. 62 years of dialogue didn’t bring any result and nor will dialogue for another 60 years even with United States, the #1 Governance/ Misgovernance Corporate Inc of world readying up for sale of ammunitions to both sides and role of professional broker (commission not defined) on Indo Pak Relationship Management Project. The war will help both countries to contain population and related food and water security and also give peace a real chance to flourish for longer periods of time in between two skirmishes/ battles. It will also create multiple opportunities across the world for everyone (not US alone but everyone) and help to come out from pressure of financial market scam based on mindless speculation. The war will also help to breed good leaders of caliber who are go getters unlike past and current breed of all words, stabbers in back, raking in money leaders.
Why is it that as soon as Kashmir is discussed the bogey man of the militants comes out of the Indian closet. Kashmir is one of the most militarized places on the map today surely a handful of militants cant throw the Indian military or malign the right of these people.
And also keep the terrorist stories out of the equation.
FACT the people of Kashmir need to decide their future and have their plebiscite the rest is just Indian hysteria.
Rohit Lal mind mind your manners. I am not a dalit in your country you can treat like dirt.
One can equally say who the hell are you, not that one cares!
To Fima:
Kashmir’s history need to be carefuly studied before you talk about plebiscite. First we need to determine how Islamists got in there and then plan how to return land back to those persons who had the first right on Kashmir. Simply because Muslims are in Kashmir does not mean that Kashmir is a seperate territory from India. It is like saying Xinjiang in China does not belong to China becase Muslims live there.
Myra,
Here is a clip showing an educated Indian muslim schooling Pakistani ex president Musharaff during his trip to Delhi recently. As you see, Musharaff has no credible response or answer.
Muslims are treated much better in India and have more potential than those in Pakistan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kP9JCusfj e0&NR=1
I doubt it is legal to show this clip in Pakistan.
Kashmiri muslims, some of them have been so deluded with propaganda, they just don’t know it, but things are good there and can be much better for them, if they choose to be patriotic Indians, rather than separatists and useless puppets of Pakistan fueled separatism.
Fima :
Talk of plebiscite is irrelevant. If Pakistan wanted plebiscite:
1. It shouldn’t have entered to other agreements. Indus agreement legalizes the borders Shimla agreements supersedes all previous agreements.
2. Pakistan leaders have multiple times declared that they will follow Shimla agreement to settle any dispute.
3. After multiple state elections (more than 60% votes in each) in Kashmir, Pakistan should forget any dreams about Kashmir.
4. What
Why Pakistan needs Kashmir? Pakistan is bought by Saudis and Chinese now. Do you know Saudis are buying 700,000 hectors and UAE buying 300,000 hectors of agriculture land in Pakistan? Do you know Chinese are buying all the steel mills and hydro-electric dams in Pakistan. What will you or you children in such a country? Apply to Chinese or Saudis for a job in Pakistan?
It is time you think about building your own country and not burning other countries. But we all know, your country is beyond repair now, so it is convenient for you to break other countries. You are only wasting your time and other’s time.
Pakistan is a rented state with an army and nukes for rent. What do they need Kashmir for? To conduct nuke tests in Kashmir or set up more taliban training camps?
Pakistan used to do all underground nuke in Balochistan, but seems like that option won’t be available for too long. So they need new testing sites!
Also all taliban training camps from Punjab are moving to Pak-occupied-Kashmir now. There is tension between local Kashmiris and Talibans. So Taliban needs more camp sites!
Its not that Pakistan wants a plebiscite us Kashmiris want a plebiscite. To those here who suggest that our struggle is a handful few who have been brainwashed by Pakistan is trying to insult our intelligence or not using your own.
For over 50 years we have been subjuagetd, I am a Kashmiri ask me what I have seen the atrocities I have seen the Indian army commit against our people. Get out of your bollywood zone and come and see the reality in Kashmir.
Whether we chose to be with a terrorist state or an independent state should be our decision not yours, Indians.
You can pour as much money, military resources etc but Kashmir will never be a part of India. Maybe its time you Indians woke up to this fact instead of deluding yourselves and spend your resources on some good in your own country.
We have struggled and will struggle for another 5o years,
Kashmir is not in India, India is in Kashmir!
Yes Its time to demystify the real issue. Let them decide their future and the militants will have no excuse.
The rest are just tactics which have been played for too long to deny the Kashmiris what they want.
As a kashmiri who’s suffered at the hands of both India & Pakistan, I have to say that for all it’s misgivings, we kashmiris are much better off with India than we could ever be with the ‘failed state’ of Pakistan. We were living peacefully & happily till the late 1980s when Pakistan decided to unleash it’s terrorists in our valley. In no way am I siding with the Indian forces, who have also committed their share of atrocities on us but I & many of my fellow kashmiris are of the opinion that if Pakistani terrorists (both ‘state’ & ‘non-state’ actors) stop infiltrating into Indian Kashmir, Indian military will reduce it’s presence & we’ll live peacefully again. We would much rather be with a progressive & secular India than with a regressive, radical & lawless Pakistan, which has become a failed state & surviving on whatever the world puts in its begging bowl. The truth is that Pakistan doesn’t have any sympathies for us kashmiris, it is simply interested in paying back India for it’s own shameful defeat & dismemberment in 1971. The fact that Pakistan lays claim on kashmir when more than half of it’s own territory is out of it’s control, is quite ridiculous.
S Wani:
It’s too late. You should have stopped your king from signing the accession treaty. India was not going to save Kashmir from Pakistan sponsored mercenaries, who were raping, plundering, killing and invading Kashmir. You King came begging for help and signed the accession treaty. Then only Indian army went to save Kashmiris. So many Indian soldiers died saving Kashmiris. You are being thankless now!
It’s too late to change history. There are barely 10-15 million muslims in Kashmir. 60%-70% of those voted in last election for Indian democracy. There are 180 million muslims in India, who chose to live in India and didn’t go to Pakistan. Status of Kashmir affects their dreams and future as well. Kashmir belongs to them and to all Indians as well!
Kashmir doesn’t belong to you only that you will grab it and run wherever you like! Only a war will change borders. Sending few terrorists in the night will not get you Kashmir. It will only make India stronger and Pakistan weaker. Can you notice the changes in India and Pakistan after 26/11!
Few people like you tried last elections and didn’t get 1000 (less than 0.001%) votes and lost deposits. Some others like you couldn’t get 100 signatures to file for nomination. This tells about the popularity of people like you are. Did you not see the long lines of women at voting stations, who dared to vote in spite of militant’s threat to cut off hands?
Just people like you hide militants in their homes and whole village has to be searched. If you were living in Pakistan, Pakistani Govt might have sold you to Guantanamo Bay prison. If you were living in China, Chinese Govt might have jailed, executed you and sold your organs on e-Bay. Thank God that you are still living in a free country and asking for more freedom! These are the privileges of living in a democracy.
But if you want to live in Pakistani Kashmir (Pok), who stopped you! There are daily buses and trains. Just go and lets us live.
Yes Its time to demystify the real issue. Let them decide their future and the militants will have no excuse.
- Posted by Alice
I am glad that at least you owned up the terrorists. Pakistani Govt has not done that so far. One Pakistani terrorist is going through trials and 9 are lying dead in a morgue for almost a year. And you Govt keeps saying they are not Pakistanis. This is the worst ever humiliation for any Pakistani, when you Govt is so ashamed that it can’t even claim you as a citizen. Never heard any civilized country doing this. Even N. Korea, Libya accept their citizens.
Consequences:
1. UK is deporting 10000 Pakistanis.
2. US doesn’t welcome any Pakistani on soil and watching / jailing those already on soil.
3. JuD is UN banned by UN and even China couldn’t help. Next time Pakistan might be declared a terrorist state, like Libya.
4. Next time, FoDP may not help you.
5. If militants will have no excuse, drones will have no excuse not to fly all over Pakistan.
So, think about actions and the reactions.
I’ve been reading some of the comments & as a Baloch (originally from Barkhan, now settled in Canada),
I’d like to address my Kashmiri brothers:
Whatever you chose to do, please don’t ever integrate into Pakistan. We, Balochs made that mistake decades ago & are paying the price even today. Pakistan is run by scheming punjabis & those punjabis will suck your land of all it’s resources, exploit & plunder you & then hang you out to dry. This is what they have done with us, with the Pashtuns, with the Sindhis & mark my words, this is exactly what they’ll do with you. I don’t know what the ground reality is over there but if you can, make your peace with India & remain a part of it as I feel that India is rapidly moving towards being a global power. If you can’t reconcile with the Indians, go for your independance, although I think it’s unrealistic given your location. But whatever you do, don’t ever ever integrate into Pakistan. If you think that the Indian army is ruthless, wait till you deal with the barbaric & merciless Pakistani army which conducts genocides without blinking an eyelid. There’s a saying that ‘the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence’. So think before you do anything. May allah be with you.
We have struggled and will struggle for another 5o years,
Kashmir is not in India, India is in Kashmir!
- Posted by S Wani
Who is stopping you! You can struggle and protest in a democracy. It is allowed in India. It’s not China, where they shoot you and organ-harvest your body. Not Pakistan where your relatives will find your bullet-riddled body in a mass graveyard!
But be aware that your daily protests are only harming Kashmiri businesses, economy and progress. And stay away from stray bullets!
When you get time or wisdom, think about what have you achieved in last 30 years what you want to achieve in next 50 years? Pakistani politicians play Kashmir to get votes. ISI plays Kashmir to justify it’s existence and secret fat budget. But have you gained playing puppet to them?
If not for Indian police, US drones will be flying on Sri Nagar now!
Pakistan’s one & only contribution to the world: TERRORISM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32722511/ns/ world_news-terrorism
THANK YOU Mr. Bilaal Butt.
We love you too! And can’t agree more with you. I do feel your pain. Hope things will improve as soon as Pakistan stops sending mercenaries. But whenever you notice any police/army brutality, please camcorder it and send it to national media. Only that way, we can share your pain and suffering.
Just some facts:
1. 2005 Kashmir earthquake victims in PoK are still living under tents or open sky after 4 years of earthquake. US, UK NGOs and Redcross are feeding these people. Pakistan Govt doesn’t have the money or will to help these people. No single Pakistani leader has visited these people in last 4 years.
2. Pakistan army started killing it’s own people in East Pakistan when they demanded equal rights with West Pakistan. Three million Bangladeshis had already killed and 30000 women raped when India decided to step in and protect the survivors.
3. East Pakistanis who wanted to migrate West Pakistan after after 1971 separation were not accepted by Pakistan and 750000 continue to live in tents in Dacca. Those who managed to migrate to West Pakistan are called Mohajirs and are not given equal rights.
4. Pakistan is still continuing this habit in Balochistan: Selling all Baluchi natural resources to China, Making Baluchois a minority in their homeland, kidnappings, rape and disappearances of Baluchi nationals. Chinese get VIP security when they plunder Balochistan and Baluchis get bombed from air when demand equal rights and job.
5. Same thing repeats in FATA. If you don’t support ISI activities in Afghanistan, then you are declared Taliban and your locations are sent to CIA drones.
How can Pakistan even morally even ask for Kashmir? Do they have a morality when hiding Bangladeshi war criminals or UN/Interpol declared international criminals!!!
AAfromUSA
You said, “Did India do otherwise? Withdrawal can not be unilateral. There are numerous UN resolutions, how many of them ever honored by India?”
- There was only one UN resolution. India did not take its troops out because the UN resolution did not ask for it. Pakistan, on the other hand, was mandated to withdraw its troops and the mujahidin out of the kingdom of Jammu and Kashmir. Pakistan has never honored the condition for the plebiscite.
The Shimla Agreement between India and Pakistan in 1972 ousted any direct foreign intervention. Under it, Indo-Pak were to solve Kashmir issue peacefully. That, again, Pakistan did not honor; instead Pak pushed mujahadin from the soviet war in to Kashmir and spread mayhem there.
Bilaal Butt:
Only people like you can save the future of Kashmir. Tell our brothers in PoK to save their future from Chinese occupation. Don’t let Pok be another Lasha or Urumi!
Pakistan recently declared PoK areas Gilgit-Baltistan as provinces and handed-over all dams and hydro-electric projects to China.
1. Punjabi leaders in Islamabad and Lahore will get more power and bigger ACs.
2. Chinese will invest and own these hydro-electric projects. Chinese will get jobs and free houses in Kashmir. Chinese seldom employ locals. So no jobs or opportunities for local Kashmiris. If you demand more jobs, you will be called Talibans and bombed from air.
3. Slowly Chinese will move to all other areas like mining, construction or small industry and colonize PoK. Slowly Kashmiris will be minority in PoK. Then Lasha or Urumi will be repeated in PoK.
China has already done this in Balochistan, Africa, Iraq. Kashmir is next!
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/06/world/ middleeast/06iraqoil.html?_r=1&em
Alice,
I’m sure you’d suggest the same solution – let people decide and the militants will have no excuse – in Balochistan or Swat? Are you suggesting Pakistan should withdraw its troops and let the people from Balochistan and Swat decide about their future if they want to be in Pakistan?
It’s high time that Kashmiris stop allowing themselves from being played as a pawn in Pakistan’s slimy game. If anything, they need to look at the plight of the Pashtoons & the Balochis & realize that the Pakistani Punjabi establishment doesn’t really give a damn about them, all it cares about is it’s veil designs & self interests. Why any Kashmiri in his/her right mind would want to abandon an upcoming economic power like India & join a failed & lawless terror haven like Pakistan, is beyond any rationale. Most Kashmiris are sensible enough to realize that siding with a democratic India is the best option for them & they have proved it by participating in the last elections. To the remaining minority, I’d like to say that you’re being an obstacle to the progress of your state & your people. Whatever grievances you might have with the Indian Govt. can be worked out in a peaceful democratic manner.
Today, with India’s economic development, Indians have one of the highest disposable incomes of any nation in the world. With this income, they vacation in Switzerland, Madrid & Venice when they should be spending that money in Srinagar, Gulmarg & Pehelgam. Kashmir can be the #1 preferred vacation destination for 1.2 billion Indians but sadly it isn’t. At a time when the whole world is trying to find ways to take advantage of the Indian market, unfortunately, Kashmir although being a part of India isn’t able to do so. So, who’s losing here & who’s winning? Just think about it!
Two rapes and two verdicts:
Shopian Case: Indian Kashmir
1. Two women were raped and murdered by unknown criminals
2. Four Police officers (including district police SP) are suspended and jailed for improper handing of evidence.
3. Police officers continue to live in jail and denied bail.
4. Case handed over to CBI (SIT) and Judicial probe ordered under supervision of a high court judge.
5. SIT announced a Rs. 20-lakh award to anyone providing a clue.
6. No evidence points to police officers, but they continue to live in jail and lost jobs.
http://www.kashmirwatch.com/showhumanrig hts.php?subaction=showfull&id=1252280706 &archive=&start_from=&ucat=2&var0news=va lue0news
Sui Case: Balochistan, Pakistan
1. A lady doctor (Dr. Shazia Khalid) was raped by a serving Pakistan army officer (Captain Hamad).
2. Army cover up begins. Rape victim and her family get death threats and jail threats.
3. Pakistani president calls her a fortune seeker, million-dollar seeker, Canadian visa seeker, a loose woman, a prostitute,
4. President of Pakistan, announced that the chief suspect, Captain Hamad, was 100 per cent innocent.
5. When Dr. Sazia fails in suicide attempts, Pakistani Govt. ordered her to leave the country for her own safety. Else Army will kill her!
6. Perpetrator are protected by the government and got promoted in job
7. Victim was deported (abandoned) to UK and later she managed to emigrate to Canada and she can’t go back to Pakistan to meet her family.
8. According to the Governor of Baluchistan, Owais Ahmed Ghani, there was no rape
9. President Musharraf: “This has become a money making concern. A lot of people say if you want to go abroad and get a visa for Canada or citizenship and be a millionaire, get yourself raped”
10. Sahid Buguti, a local leader who demanded justice from Pakistan Govt, got killed by aerial bombardment from Musharraf.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/pakist an/mckenna_pakistan-pt2.html
It is better for this region to be split up into small states starting with Balochistan, Pashtunistan, Sindhu Desh, Baltistan, Azad Kashmir or a combined Kashmir, and the rest of the Afghan state split up along ethnic lines. Religion definitely has not shown any binding between these people. Their ethnic roots are a lot deeper. Islam has only united them against non-Muslims and has proven to be a dangerous thing for the whole world. I am sure these people will be better off being separate in order to progress any further. The real Af-Pak solution must be to split these two countries into smaller states for everyone’s peace of mind. It will also pave way for the dismantling of the nuclear weapons from this loose entity called Pakistan which has been kept tied together by its military all these years. These people have proved to themselves and everyone beyond doubt that they cannot manage themselves as a federation. So cut them up. Peace will return and terrorism will end. Or at least it will turn inwards and they can keep stabbing each other, leaving the rest of the world alone.
Alice or Fima or whatever your name is… I just made a legitimate point which is supported by proven historical facts. Not only Kashmir but Pakistan, Bangladesh, Afghanistan all are part of India. India ceded these territories and recognizes them as seperate nations is a different matter. But that does not take away the fact that these were not territories of India and the current settlers in these territories are not native Indians. And yes any Indian, (including a person like me, from low backward caste) is better, courteous, more mannerful than people like you. Indians have something more… Full freedom of thinking, beliefs, practice of beliefs which are peaceful and harmonious in building a good society. We are not slave to some book craps and we do not breed faith based terrorits organizations like SIMI, LeT, Taliban, Lashkar e Taiiba, Jaish e Muhammed, etc.
Bilal Butt your so not a Kashmiri and its sooo obvious!!
Why would Kashmir want to be part of Pakistan? Have they been keeping up to date with the news? Pakistan is almost about to have a civil war with it’s own religion.
At least with India, they have democracy and possible prosperity. At least, when the muslim minority is not attempting to cause armed confrontation.
Aside from that, what can Kashmir do? It doesn’t have enough support in it’s own people for a general uprising.
And if Pakistan was willing to fight a war over Kashmir, it would last mere days before nuclear threat ends the battle via truce. And Pakistan has a bad record with short wars. Even when starting conflict against India, it can’t even make minor territory gains.
Myra:
It has come up several times and I always think it is Shaksgam valley given by Pak to China, not Aksai Chin. Can you comment?
you said: @Nikhil – a small point on Pakistan ceding land to China since it comes up a lot. The 1963 agreement ceding the Shaksgam Valley clearly says that it is pending a final settlement of the Kashmir dispute.
-Myra: Nikhil’s points stands since Pakistan did give Shaksgam valley give AS A GIFT to China without “asking the people of J&K or without talking to the UN.” This act brought in a 3rd country into the equation. Saying “pending a final settlement of the Kashmir dispute.” does nothing and even if mentioned this, UN is not a signatory to the deal and with or without that statement, it would still stand as a disputed deal. So the issue is gifting Kashmir–the disputed territory–to China with no permission from any one. The area of Shaksgam valley is 4853 sq km. Did any Kashmiri or from Northern Areas in Pakistan protest? Compare it with the protests by Indian Kashmiris that happened when Govt of India wanted to transfer of only 0.4SqKm of Land in Kashmir from J&K State to Amarnath temple Shrine Board for Amarnath temple pligrimage purpose. People protest only where they can—like in India and other places–like in Pakistan– they stay inside for the fear of bullet.
Akhtar Babajan whatever you say about Pakistan at least they did not suppress their own like the Sikhs, butcher the Gujaratis and any other minority in India.
Currently Indian occupied Kashmir’s water is being drained and used to light up India and Indian industries.
Us Pakistanis are housing over 1200000 refugees from Indian occupied Kashmir who have fled the terror of India, go and check out the refugee camps in AK. These people obviously fled and got the safety they wanted.
Soman the UN just confirmed 80000 mass graves in Indian Occupied Kashmir so why do you not read some reports and relieve your ignorance!!
Some of you Indians are obviously fed on NDTV hysteria diets and conspiracy stories.
I am a Pakistani and very proud we have got far in the years of our independence considering we were shortchanged of our treasures and may things by you and if it wasn’t for us you would still be fanning the British as their chai walas .
We are co-operating to get the terrorist which were brought and bred on our soil to fight Russia and we helped make the subcontinent safe.
If we are going around with what you call a begging ball at least we are not exploiting children and prostituting our women in the name of commerce. You have no respect for your own how can you respect another!
India has a crystal clear choice to make, resolve the (Kashmir) dispute(s) with Pakistan and look forward towards a future. Pakistan came into being on 14 August 1947, Pakistan became a nuclear power on 27 May 1998 to ensure its national security. Unless India realizes it has outstanding disputes with Pakistan, there will be no normalization of relations.
I can still sense a minority in India that does not swallow the idea of Pakistan. That kind of attitude is a killer for peaceful relations.
India Is Hiring: Job Outlook Best Among 35 Nations
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB12524088 3775292123.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
Umair, Hamid, Alice, Fima:
Can you explain to me in short (please be specific and logical):
1. Why Pakistan needs Kashmir? Do you have any legal documents?
2. If Pakistan has no documents, why is it sitting on the PoK?
3. Why did Pakistan sign the Shimla agreement and then repeatedly violate it?
4. Why did you cede areas of Kashmir to China?
5. If Pakistan is so much worried about Kashmiris, why not similar care for Mohajirs, Sindhis, Baluchis or East Pakistanis?
6. Why Pakistan is not accepting dead bodies of it’s citizens from Mumbai attacks? If these are not Pakistanis, then why is did Pakistan arrest 6 people in Pakistan?
THANK YOU S.WANI YOU ARE A TRUE KASHMIRI MY BROTHER.
DONT GIVE UP YOUR STRUGGLE AND LET INDIA SILENCE YOU LIKE
US SIKHS. KHALISTAN WILL BECOME A REALITY TOO
A Hamid:
Just your name reminded me an Indian–Havildar Abdul Hamid, my childhood hero for the reason that he destroyed 7 Pakistanis M48Paton Tanks in the Khemkaran sector in Sept1965 Indo/pak war–exactly 44Yrs ago-the war that you have been WRONGLY taught that India started and pakistan won! Havildar Abdul Hamid gave life for India and was posthumously honored with Param Vir Chakra, India’s highest military decoration. This is one good thing I could write after reading your post if I quote you:
@If we are going around with what you call a begging ball at least we are not exploiting children and prostituting our women in the name of commerce. You have no respect for your own how can you respect another!”
- Posted by A Hamid
A Hamid: Is that your answer to the Pakistan’s begging bowl fact that you just acknowledged about. Stop this “atleast we got….” attitude since you cannot claim so. Research bit more. Check about Heera Mandi and child prostitution in pakistan. I will not say much further. Wise up!
@Akhtar Babajan whatever you say about Pakistan at least they did not suppress their own like the Sikhs, butcher the Gujaratis and any other minority in India.
—About India, I agree bad things happened but people are back on normal track–Sikhs are just fine and ruling India (for 10yrs till next election), Muslims hate Pakistani intervention for the simple reason that those who went to pakistan are tagged as Muhajirs and other minorities are just fine in India. Now I have talked about India, would you like to comment on killing 2.5million of YOUR OWN MUSLIMS+HINDUS in the then E. Pakistan for the simple question they asked that they have the right to rule Pakistan since they got more votes. That was the first time Pakistan had relatively genuine democratic process working. I am ready to listen to your India-Jew-USA conspiracy their also.
I think Indians need to start reading their own authors
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug /22/kashmir.india