Pakistan: Now or Never?
Perspectives on Pakistan
India and Pakistan: looking beyond the rhetoric
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With so much noise around these days in the relationship between India and Pakistan it is hard to make out a clear trend. Politicians and national media in both countries have reverted to trading accusations, whether it be about their nuclear arsenals, Pakistani action against Islamist militants blamed for last year’s Mumbai attacks or alleged violations of a ceasefire on the Line of Control dividing Kashmir. Scan the headlines on a Google news search on India and Pakistan and you get the impression of a relationship fraught beyond repair.
Does that mean that attempts to find a way back into peace talks broken off after the Mumbai attacks are going nowhere? Not necessarily. In the past the background noise of angry rhetoric has usually obscured real progress behind the scenes, and this time around may be no exception.
MORE TALKS
The Hindu newspaper reported on Sept 1 that Prime Minister Manmohan Singh may meet either the president or prime minister of Pakistan on the sidelines of a Commonwealth summit in Trinidad in November. It said the Indian government was already working out what strategy to adopt to make any meeting meaningful, while also pushing Pakistan to take more action against Pakistan-based militant groups in order to prevent another Mumbai-style attack.
There is no confirmation of that Trinidad meeting, and nor is there likely to be for some time, but The Hindu in recent months has proved to be well informed about the prime minister’s approach to Pakistan. Singh himself laid out his plans in a speech in parliament in July in which he promised a “step by step” approach to dialogue – effectively meaning that India would talk to Pakistan while refusing for now to reopen a formal peace process broken off after the Mumbai attacks.
The two countries’ foreign ministers are also expected to talk on the sidelines of the U.N. General Assembly in New York this month, although it is unclear whether this would be preceded by a meeting of foreign secretaries in line with an agreement reached in July that the top diplomats of India and Pakistan should meet ”as often as necessary”. The Hindu said the foreign secretaries would meet in New York; more recent newspaper reports have called this into question.
DISMANTLING JAMMU AND KASHMIR?
In the meantime, both countries are edging forward in their approach to the two parts of Jammu and Kashmir which they control. (After their first war in 1947/48 the former princely state was divided into the regions of Ladakh, Kashmir and Jammu which are held by India, and the regions of Gilgit and Baltistan along with an area known as Azad Kashmir which are held by Pakistan.)
According to Praveen Swami, a Kashmir expert at The Hindu, the Indian government has been holding secret talks over the summer with the main political separatist alliance in Kashmir, the All Parties Hurriyat Conference, to try to agree an approach to bring peace to the region. ”Perhaps most important,” he said, “Pakistan is being asked to endorse the talks.”
Over on its side of the border, the Pakistan government has decided to grant limited autonomy to Gilgit and Baltistan. It had previously run the region directly from Islamabad, much to the irritation of local people who felt they had been deprived of their political rights to the kind of self-rule given to Pakistani provinces.
To digress briefly into history, the princely state of Jammu and Kashmir was created in the 19th century by Hindu Dogra rulers expanding outwards from their base in Jammu and comprising people of different linguistic, ethnic and religious groups. Were it not for the tremendous importance given to Jammu and Kashmir by both India and Pakistan – both of which claim the state in full – it might have broken up naturally years ago.
The people of Gilgit and Baltistan never felt much loyalty to the former maharajah of Jammu and Kashmir and have long complained that they have been held hostage to the Kashmir dispute (you hear the same complaints from Ladakhis on the Indian side.)
So do the parallel moves on both India and Pakistan suggest both countries are taking small steps towards an eventual dismantling of the former princely state which would allow a settlement of the long-running Kashmir dispute? Not quite – Pakistan has been careful to say it is not giving full provincial status to Gilgit and Baltistan. There are also historical grounds for treating the region differently from other parts of Jammu and Kashmir, which date back to partition and before.
Yet given that anything to do with Jammu and Kashmir is potentially explosive, reactions to the Pakistan government’s move on Gilgit and Baltistan have so far been relatively muted. Dawn newspaper said that the decision stuck a balance between meeting the aspirations of its people for political rights and maintaining the region’s status as disputed territory. The Daily Times said that the people of Gilgit and Baltistan had been held hostage to the Kashmir dispute for long enough and should eventually be incorporated as a full province of Pakistan. On the Indian side, I’ve seen criticism from the opposition Bharatiya Janata Party but nothing from the government.
A roadmap for peace sketched out by Singh and former president Pervez Musharraf in 2007 effectively acknowledged the division of the state by accepting there would be no exchange of territory between the two countries – although both pledged to try to make borders irrelevant. That agreement was shelved when Musharraf’s own political fortunes nosedived. But are the governments of India and Pakistan nonetheless following some of the signposts in that roadmap despite all the angry rhetoric currently dominating their relationship? And if so, how far are they exchanging information about their plans?
WILD CARDS
Just in case the above looks too rosy a view on the prospects of progress in relations between India and Pakistan, it is probably worth remembering it can all go wrong, particularly if there is another major militant attack in India.
The other wild card comes from the transformation of the political landscape in India with the implosion of the opposition right-wing BJP initially triggered by the furore over a book on Pakistan’s founder Mohammad Ali Jinnah by former senior BJP leader Jaswant Singh. So far the jury remains out on how the political drama will play out. Analysts variously predict a collapse of the right, or its opposite – a revival of the right as the BJP returns to its hardline anti-Pakistan Hindu nationalist roots in an attempt to reinvent itself after losing two consecutive general elections. Until the political landscape becomes clearer, India’s Congress-led government is likely to tread cautiously.
(Reuters file photos: Prime Minister Manmohan Singh in Siachen; Singh with Pakistan President Asif Ali Zardari in Russia; Dal lake in Srinagar; Drass on the Line of Control; former Indian foreign minister Jaswant Singh)
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Calling Soman again
Soman India has just about contained the conflict in its Punjab; having troubles in Nagaland and Gujarat;
Its having problems with Sri Lanka, China, Burma, Pakistan
further its having to steal water for its survival from left right and centre and Bangladesh
Please provide any info for what are its plan for Kashmir and what can it give it but take its resources, provide details and be logical, specific and substantive.
Soman
I have one same answer for all your questions; none of your business.
India does what it does, Pakistan does what it does. Just go about your normal life and dont ask so many pointless questions. Do you think anything is going to change between India and Pakistan so quickly? I dont think so.
Please provide any info for what are its plan for Kashmir and what can it give it but take its resources, provide details.
- Posted by F S Noman
Kashmir is an Integral part of India and I don’t need to discuss that with you. It is an internal matter to India.
But definitely China and Zardari have some plans on Kashmir. Can you hold on to your land?
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/ KI11Df01.html
Soman India has just about contained the conflict in its Punjab; having troubles in Nagaland and Gujarat;
- Posted by F S Noman
Proof that your greed and ambitions go far beyond Khalistan or Kashmir. So tell me .. what do want to talk with INdia?
Bangladesh uncovers Pakistan’s role in Arming India’s North-East rebels
http://rethinkingislam-sultanshahin.blog spot.com/2009/07/bangladesh-uncovers-pak istans-role-in.html
F S Noman says:
Please provide any info for what are its plan for Kashmir and what can it give it but take its resources, provide details.
What resources Kashmir has to provide? I know Kashmir consumes a lot of Indian resources. Kashmiris will make their own plan and destiny. India doesn’t make plans for people. India provides security and environment to prosper. Have you ever lived in a democracy?
Nothing will change the way India & Indians view Pakistan until Pakistan proves it’s sincerity towards dismantling India-specific terror from it’s soil & so far Pakistan has done nothing to show that it is indeed sincere. It continues to aid & abet it’s blue-eyed boys i.e. Hafiz Sayeed, Dawood Inbrahim, Azhar Mehmood etc. & groups like LeT, JeM etc. while demanding that India come to the table. Indians have been back stabbed by Pakistan way too many times & for way too long, to trust it any more. Last year’s Mumbai attack was the incident that woke India up & made Indians realize that we they need to stop treating Pakistan with kid gloves & stop neglecting it’s sins & misgivings. If Pakistan wants good relations with India, it needs to prove first that it is not an enemy. All the back channel activity & talks on the sidelines of various summits won’t go anywhere until Pakistan takes concrete actions. India’s policy is simple: Show results first, we’ll talk later!
@F S Noman
“India has just about contained the conflict in its Punjab; having troubles in Nagaland and Gujarat;”
Please substantiate with proof!
India resolved (Not Contained!) terrorism in Punjab almost 20 yrs back. You were on the verge of collapse just couple of months back. Still in ICU and living off on alms from the world.
“Its having problems with Sri Lanka, China, Burma, Pakistan
further its having to steal water for its survival from left right and centre and Bangladesh”
Again Plz substantiate with link of India’s problem with Burma and Sri lanka and that India is stealing water.
“Please provide any info for what are its plan for Kashmir and what can it give it but take its resources, provide details.”
As of now Kashmir draws electricity from National grid inspite of having huge hydroelectric potential. Credit for JnK’s backwardness goes to Pakistan.
Our plan on jnK is simple. End Pak sponsored terrorism. let JnK prosper and live in peace just like rest of India. Lastly set an example to POK on what they are missing
Calling Soman again
Please provide any info for what are its plan for Kashmir and what can it give it but take its resources, provide details and be logical, specific and substantive.
- Posted by F S Noman
Nice try dude to divert attention. We are not discussing India’s relations with the world here! Please stay within the scope and context of the subject. We are discussing India, Pakistan, Kashmir and terrorism here. Can you try to answer my 8 specific questions?
My friends have answered some of your relevant questions above and I don’t need to repeat.
Chinese Invade Pakistan!
Is it the beginning of Chinese takeover? British did the same in India 300 years back!
As westerners flee, Chinese workers land in droves in turbulent Pakistan
http://blog.taragana.com/n/as-westerners -flee-chinese-workers-land-in-droves-in- turbulent-pakistan-165792/
Mortal says:
” If Pakistan wants good relations with India, it needs to prove first that it is not an enemy.”
-Is Pakistan going to be bankrupt, or implode or simply melt if relations with India continue to be bad. For last 62 years India-Pakistan relations are anything but good. Let it be, Pakistan is under no obligation to prove either an enemy or friend of India. Same goes for India, if you hint you want peaceful relations with Pakistan; all the better. Otherwise lets maintain status-quo, no need to make progress. After all India is still not all that modern forward looking nation anyways. Maybe you never want good relations with pakistan, we are also not dying for that.
Umair,
Your response proves that terrorists have no goals, no logic. Nothing can convince terrorist to give up! So what do you want to talk to India? That would be waste of time.
Yes Indian plans for Kashmir are another 60 years of suppression, military attrocities and humiliation
The reason you cant provide any details is because there are no concrete policies to develop Kashmir or a will to talk to the Kashmiri leadership.
I think you should read the your water agreement and see what is being tacken and what is being given to Kashmir.
Not only has the regions economy and life declined it is a pit of pollution and degradation.It is Indias greed and
pride that is keeping a people against its wishes and its a losing battle.
S
Why are you Indians so jealous that Pakistan have a good relationship with China and that we are capable of standing up to you.
If you feel insecure and disliked by your neighboring countries its not are problem.
Pakistan wants peace with its neighbour however it always meddles in our internal affairs eg Balochistan & it also spreads strife in our country via Afghanistan.
If our southern neighbour interferes in our internal affairs, then of course our security services will hit back. It should leave Afghanistan & stop meddling in our internal affairs from there.
Only then will peace be possible…
I have one same answer for all your questions; none of your business.
- Posted by Umair
So you don’t know why you need Kashmir! You just need it! And we are supposed to give it to you without asking why! Do you think Kashmir is an apple or banana?
Soman
I have one same answer for all your questions; none of your business.
India does what it does, Pakistan does what it does. Just go about your normal life and dont ask so many pointless questions. Do you think anything is going to change between India and Pakistan so quickly? I dont think so.
- Posted by Umair
That was quite opposite to what Soman was asking(logical,specific and substantive).
If you thought those were pointless question, why did you even care to say ‘none of your business’? Maybe you thought asking pointless questions was the birth right of Pakistanis only?
And moreover, if they were pointless questions Myra wouldn’t have allowed them to be published.
Weren’t people going about their normal lives till the Pakistanis sneaked into the country and wrecked havoc in mumbai?
You are right when you think nothing is going to change between India and Pakistan quickly. It takes time for an entire brainwashed generation of Pakistan,thanks to Zia,to start thinking like a normal human beings and value lives of other human beings.
Umair: Is Pakistan going to be bankrupt, or implode or simply melt if relations with India continue to be bad. For last 62 years India-Pakistan relations are anything but good. Let it be, Pakistan is under no obligation to prove either an enemy or friend of India. Same goes for India, if you hint you want peaceful relations with Pakistan; all the better. Otherwise lets maintain status-quo, no need to make progress. After all India is still not all that modern forward looking nation anyways. Maybe you never want good relations with pakistan, we are also not dying for that.
>>>
I am very sorry to break the news to you Mister but in case you have not bothered to inquire beyond your loudspeaker sources, your country is melting every day! Pakistan had gone bankrupt (and what not) long before if not for the UN funds. A country who has land for lease or sale is like clearly indicates its desperation. Its like a person who is ready to cut his limb so that he can eat that limb for food.
And btw, what kind of hints you want India to give that it wants to have peaceful relations with Pakistan? May be not probing the Mumbai attacks to their logical conclusion will be a good hint? Thats what your country is doing as a hint for wanting peaceful relations! Isn’t it?
Re: maintaining state quo, yes India was doing that before it decided to abduct few hundreds of Pakistani soldiers and station them on Kargil peaks and then claim them as Pakistani infiltration. And why not, who knows how many of 92000 POWs that surrendered in 1971 went back home. Quite a possibility. Or may be its misadventurism began when it sent forefathers of Ajmal Kasab in one of the poor village in Pakistan, make them suffer in extreme poverty and let the kid get all the militant training and kill 200 something civilans in Mumbai just because India could claim that that Pakistan is not maintaining status quo.
Grand designs of evil schemers who does not want to maintain status quo, eh?
As for being “under no obligation”, say this to Mr. Droneman and learn to strike stones for cooking food, if you could find any (food, stones will be plenty for sure).
Why are you Indians so jealous that Pakistan have a good relationship with China and that we are capable of standing up to you.
- Posted by Bilal
There is a saying: “if two kittens fight, monkey gains”. The Chinese are playing monkey here. Already Chinese are one of the richest country and Pakistan is one of the poorest in the world. Chinese don’t have a good track record anywhere they go. Communists are a threat to the world.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/06/world/ middleeast/06iraqoil.html?_r=2&em
If you become too poor and jobless that becomes a concern to neighbors.
1. Too many Kasabs will try to sneak in to India
2. Too many sucide bombers will go to Afghanistan
3. Everyday your army will flash nukes to demand food aid like N. Korea.
Everybody including Jinnah wanted Pakistan to be strong and a leader. Not a slave to commis!
India is not going to attack you unless you keep sending terrorists. Did u gain anything from Mumbai terrorists? But you lost a lot! Don’t do such things and you will be safe.
Pakistan wants peace with its neighbour however it always meddles in our internal affairs eg Balochistan ..
- Posted by Qasim
Dude, your Government was lying and misleading you. So drop this excuse!
After Sri Lankan cricket attacks also, your Govt blamed India, then blamed Mehsud, and now blaming LTTE. Don’t listen to your Govt., verify from International media.
No dossier on Balochistan handed to India: Qureshi
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp ?page=20099\12\story_12-9-2009_pg7_30
No proof of India’s Baloch link: US
http://article.wn.com/view/2009/07/30/US _bails_out_India_from_Balochistan_wrangl e/
Pakistan rejects US ‘AfPak’ policy: Zardari
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/38c842f6-9e6a- 11de-b0aa-00144feabdc0.html
Yeah right! After eating half of US aid and IMF aid, he thinks he has a choice!
“Is Pakistan going to be bankrupt,or implode or simply melt if relations with India continue to be bad. For last 62 years India-Pakistan relations are anything but good ” – Posted by Umair
You need to ask yourself the question: In the last 62 yrs, what has bad relations with Pakistan cost India & what has bad relations with India cost Pakistan?
In case of India, it has cost 4 costly but affordable wars, periodic terror strikes on it’s soil resulting in some loss of civilian life & unrest in the part of one of it’s states i.e. Kashmir. Despite the above, India currently has one of the fastest growing economies in the world, an increasingly tolerant, literate & secular populace & strong democratic institutions. Al in all, India is in a good place; stronger than ever before & getting stronger by the day.
In case of Pakistan, it has cost 4 extremely costly & unaffordable wars, massive defense spending (2/3rd of the revenues) resulting in less focus on economy leading to virtual bankruptcy, army retaining all power & upstaging democratically elected Govts, extremely weak democratic & other institutions, rising radicalism, poverty, unemployment & illiteracy, an increasingly radical & intolerant populace, extremely negative reputation in the world etc etc. In other words a failed & bankrupt state & the unofficial global capital of Terrorism.
Keeping the above in mind, you can do some thinking & figure out as to bad relations has hurt which country more!
“Pakistan is under no obligation to prove either an enemy or friend of India. Otherwise lets maintain status-quo, no need to make progress”
Yes, Pakistan has no obligation to prove anything & we can certainly get back to the status-quo. But can you please tell this to Zardari, Gilani, Qureshi, Malik, Basit etc., who keep ranting everyday that India should resume dialogue with Pakistan. If you want a resumption in dialogue, the onus is on you to prove your sincerity, it’s that simple. Those days are gone when your elected officials would conduct a dialogue on one hand, while on the other hand your army/ISI would plan terror attacks at the same time. Either talk like a civil neighbor or strike like a terrorist. We can handle both so you are the one’s who need to make a choice.
“Does US Govt sit down with terrorists, murderers or liars and negotiates with them?”
“We all know there is problem between USA and UBL. Did USA sit down with UBL and find a common ground or resolve issues? Why not?”
Well, the example of USA and UBL is not the correct parallel to what India and Pakistan are facing rather the Ireland under IRA and Britain would be much better example, since Indians will be sitting down on the table with their alleged perpetrators of state terrorism and not the terrorist themselves and yes Tonu Blaired did sit down with them and today the IRA is history. Was it difficult? Yes it was for him, but he did it for the sake of peace. India should do that too for the sake of its own people. Pawning the Indian future with a territorial dispute is not sensible. If someone thinks otherwise, is simply looking away from reality.
Some commenters are making tall claims that time will destroy Pakistan anyway and the problem will go away with it. Pragmatism suggest otherwise. Collapse of a state with 150 Million is a bad news on the border. Yes ultimately Pakistan is going to be consumed with militancy if it does not curb it soon, and it will not as long as the Kashmir issue is alive. The point is whether India can afford it?
Somalia a tiny country with a fraction of population is a terrible example to see, even magnifying it to imagine what it will look like for India to have such a state on the border is even hard to comprehend. Fallout will include not only millions of refugees crossing borders, but millions of terrorists with more reasons to create havoc across India. I wish sanity prevails in Indian minds to realize the threat sooner than later, just like Britain..
Mortal
Are you telling me that Pakistan has no appetite and will to stand up to India because the wars with India will be too expensive or unaffordable? Bad relations have hurt both India and Pakistan, you Indians look towards Mumbai attacks as an incident where 10 terrorists killed 162 innocent people. But can you look into the intangible damage it has done? the big question mark that now lingers over India is; being a secure investor friendly country or not? Can India organize Olympics or another major world sporting event? Just like China did the 2008 Olympics. Similarly Pakistan can never forgive you for the 1971 war, the damage has been done and there is too much of bad blood between the countries. Unless we make a truth and reconciliation commission just like was did in South Africa after collapse of aparthied. Maybe from 1965, 1971, even partition, Kargil and Mumbai all key players testify before that ‘truth and reconciliation commission’ and let truth come out and reconciliation begin with a spirit of forgiveness.
If not, its better to keep fighting in an honorable way, atleast until we realize its important to live with peace.
Lastly, be rest assured India WILL NEVER attain its rightful place in the world unless relations with Pakistan are friendly. Because its only PAKISTAN in all your neighbouring countries that has the will and the power to confront you.
This problem exists because India is weak.
There is no point in blaming Pakistan or US. India is weak not because we don’t have required talent but because we are ruining ourselves by electing bunch of eunuchs who are controlled by Mecca and Rome. PC Chidambram has all the time to fly to US and say Indian police should learn from US police on how to counter terrorism. No one stops and asks back a question to the moron what limits the Indian police force who has been countering these Islamic Barbarians from developing better system than US. Terrorism is new in US but we have been facing it since ages and persons who successfully protected us from Islamic Barbarians were not Abraham Lincoln or George Bush or Obama or Gandhi with any first name but Raja Bhoj, Rana Sanga, Rana Pratap, Shivajee, Guru Har Gobind, Guru Gobind Singh, Corporal Abdul Hamid, Numerous persons who have laid down their lives for this country and all the lunatic bunch of chimps know is to feed Gandhi. We are happy to eat the crap Gandhi as the only hero of India with some supernatural powers because Obama likes him.
Congressi has the time to throw lavish iftaar parties, haj yatra, Christian trips to Jerusalem using the Bhartiya taxpayers money and that too for religions who do not recognize right of existence of the other but nothing for the poor, hungry, exploited Bhartiyas on Deepawali and we are happy on this hypocrisy.
The Foreign Minister has the tendency to say that onus of Mumbai Probe and bringing culprits to justice is on Pakistan. No one stands and ask what the heck is his responsibility? Fool poor Bharatwasis and eat away taxes to grow rich.
The home minister has got all the time in world to fly to US, dine and wine with sponsors of Taliban, ISI and no time to address issues like shortage of officers in Defense Forces. It is peculiar that he finds time to come up with a senseless statement that Intelligence Inputs are not reliable… Because of some Islamic terrorists who were killed in encounter by Gujrat Police and Narendra Modi didn’t get executed? No one stands and ask him why doesn’t he call Intelligence Agencies as collection of idiots, fools and chimps who dole out whatever they can with such precision that specific 4 persons die and not some picnic going family.
Where is the prime minister who was shouting all options open after getting re elected?
Our leaders are not interested in India becoming strong nation who can protect itself and eliminate jehadis of Pakistan. We are extremely happy to see defense people dying on Border in numerous small warfares regularly organized by Pakistan and then throw lavish party for the Intelligence Chief Pasha. We are happy to see a Chiddu going and begging for help and feel proud that he is begging for the right thing. Congressis are more interested in development of United States economy who can only recover by selling guns to both the parties and acting as a broker (commission not defined) on Kashmir as if it a piece of real estate. We have no respect for our defense personnel who died in 1947, 1962, 1965, 1971, 1999 and the youth is now not opting for defense services.
Senseless blogging on articles from Myra McDonald will not solve the problem. Her articles are in no way helpful in forming any opinion. They are collection of events. If you want to solve a problem, look at faults and remove the faults and the first step can be to ask the congressis getting fatter and fatter on our money some of the questions I have asked and also ask them to resign. And most importantly have one of the persons like Raja Bhoj/ Guru Teg Bahadur as leader or role model.
“Is Pakistan going to be bankrupt,or implode or simply melt if relations with India continue to be bad.”
- Posted by Umair
That’s exactly what’s happening to Pakistan now. Get some international media to your cave! Things happening in your country will have severe longterm consequences for rest of the world and you!
Mortal:
I suggest you should ask yourself these questions too: If you can please answer them but not with your narrow minded vision in fairness as I know neither India nor Pakistan is saint…. A bit of honesty in the opinion might enhance your credibilty and your fellow country mens… Rather then just saying Pakistan failed state, terrorist, anti india n bla bla n so on useuall read it every other day n we get your aim to brainwash all readers of reuters to be anti Pakistan. But guess you are NOT doing a good job….But then if a ask for fair opnion that might be asking for too much but at least give it a try before you do heva cold glass of water lol..
1) Why would Pakistan want bad relations with India? A country smaller in size, millatry numbers, financialy n so on. Basicialy can not compare to India but then Indian can NOT understand the Jazba in the jawans of the Pakistan Armed Forces as shown in 1965. Unless been forced to and attcked by a BIG bully neighour then logic is to to have good strike force as its the best form of defence.
2) When partition hapened it hapend on the basis that majority Muslim states woul dform Pakistan and the rest remains in India. On that basis Kashmir should be part of Pakistan lets leave that logical sense as 90% population was Muslim in that state. How about passed UN resoultion calling for the peblicite to let the Kashmiris decide their fate. But both above are not accepted by the indian then maybe heva a democratic process as India always tries hardest to portray mother of all democracies maybe put the democratic process in play and let the world know what the Kashmiris want…
Rather then silence them with guns n rape, stage killing n puppet regimes. Even today on BBC the guy who was investigating the rape of two victims of the rapest indian army has been shot as well guess someone is hiding something n denials n so on…
As a kashmiri let me tell all my indian neighours…
Kasmir is NOT part of India it NEVER was till the puppet mahraja signed it the document which was not even a true reflection of kashmiris as he was pro indian n was going to loose it so thought sign it. How can one sign without taking into accout the wishes of the people he is deciding for n so on… Guess your democracy is based on that if you accepted that??
Let make this CLEAR..
People of kashmir are part of people of Pakistan..
In Blood,
In Flesh,
In Geograohy,
In History,
In next of kin,
Indian can try as many extravegent words but it can never be part of Inida with all its might.
Any comment on the rapes of two girls by your brave indian army? Proves how brave it is abducted raping defnecless girls….n even the home minter denying evything n only after the eventual protest they admited now even the guy who is investigating is murders I guess by …. not hard is it??? Th eones that have something to hide in the form of graves that been found, n rape victims n so on… its a TIKKA on the forehead of peace loving indians… Carry on like this surley YOU will win the hears n minds of kashmriis…. Good luck!!! need it
F S Noman:
I hear your prophetic statements and a discourse on greed of India. You are shedding so much water thrugh your eyes that it can take care of Pakistam’s water problems. You know all about Indian Kashmiris but would you like to comment on Kashmiris in POK; enlighten us a bit and we will be so happy if you tell us that they are not living in a hell alternatively called Azad kashmir. talk a bit about Kashmiris displaced by magla dam in pakistan and who left the country—-Mirpuris; why kashmiris do not burn Pakistani flags (like Indian Kashmiris do) despite pakistam sucking POK resources for electricity in Punjabistan. Also why people in Northern Areas who had no political rights of any sorts (ZERO; worse than oppressed POK kashmiris) do not complain despite their status. They must be loving Pakistan a lot! No they are afraid of bullets; they cry inside but not raise slogans; they flee that part and go abroad—Mirpuris in UK. Do they not deserve a drop of your tear since they are part of disputed territory in question.
Are you an anti-India person than a pro-kashmiri? You are shedding crocodile tears. also save a tear for Kashmiri Pundits who are refugees in their own country.
Any comments?
Can some Pakistani gimme a straight answer? This is the 4th time I am asking: What makes you think you deserve Kashmir”?
Pakistan has been sending terrorists since 60 years, 4 wars, 50000+ people dead, Pakistan bankrupt and nobody knows what Pakistan has been fighting for!
@Peter, Mortal, Rajeev
Guys, it is just a matter of time until the power base in Pakistan is shook from the ground up, by the U.S. Obama has the resolve and determination of steel and he will single out the individuals and groups and so-called notorious state agency actors in Pakistan who are creating trouble. Once Obama singles them out, there will be no more excuses and no one left to blame by Pak State Agencies and Pakistani State agencies will have no where to hide, no from the U.S., not from the Judiciary in Pak and not from the already fed up Pakistani public.
This is when Pakistan will start to become a real country, but it will start with revolution and perhaps some bits of civil war. You can’t stop the will of the people, when the truth comes out, it will be uncontainable.
Nukes will not protect Pakistan from the folly of its own public.
Mortal, you said:
“In case of Pakistan, it has cost 4 extremely costly & unaffordable wars, massive defense spending (2/3rd of the revenues) resulting in less focus on economy leading to virtual bankruptcy, army retaining all power & upstaging democratically elected Govts, extremely weak democratic & other institutions, rising radicalism, poverty, unemployment & illiteracy, an increasingly radical & intolerant populace,:
–>The business is as good as ever, for the Punjabi Military Mafia Junta that rules Pakistan and keeps it united through an iron fist. It does not matter to the Punjabi elites, that they bleed the rest of the ethnicities and non-punjab areas dry, as they get to eat and drink first and get the best land, most of the opportunities at a good life in Pakistan. Everyone else in Pakistan is free to have leftovers and fend for themself. They are too busy creating enemies, to feed their own stomach and got the begging bowl out to feed themselves and buy weapons for themselves first. Everyone else there can goto hXll.
We are pretty close to finishing up the touches in Swat valley. Our military has stood behind our nation’s integrity. We have managed to hang on and Pakistan is turning around. I always believed we will emerge stronger and we are doing it. Those who wrote us off have eggs on their faces. We will work on Balochistan and South Waziristan systematically. Inch by inch we will get back to stability and strength. The world is beginning to understand us and respect us. Pakistan has a lot to offer to the world and our strength is an important element for regional peace. If only our neighbors understood what needs to be done and co-operated with us, things would be even better. But they keep saying the same empty things like parrots.
CALLING SOMAN AND ANY OTHER INDIANS
You dont have to discuss Kashmir with Pakistan, but as
many Kashmiris have discussed why dont you ask the
KASHMIRIS WHAT THEY WANT
To suggest that they dont matter or are incapable of making decisions is an insult to them
and shows only fear on your part!
Is Baluchistan becoming another East Pakistan?
“A representative of Baloch National Movement met me more than a year ago at a conference in one of the South Asian countries. He said that if Baluchistan had a border with India, it would have broken away from Pakistan by this time and joined India. That is the reason why New Delhi is suspect in the eyes of Islamabad. His narration of cruelties perpetrated on the Baluchis had a familiar ring because I had heard the same thing in Dhaka after the Bangladesh liberation war. I was told how the cream of society was killed in cold blood”
“The tragedy is that the Punjab dominated Pakistan continues to be a unitary set up while its structure should be federal. It is difficult to say how the situation would develop in Baluchistan in the future. But one thing is sure that laying the blame on India or using more and more force will be counter productive”
http://www.sundaytimes.lk/090913/Interna tional/int_06.html
AAfromUSA:
UK had one IRA.
India has 100 IRAs .. ISI, JeM, Jui, JiI, LeT, TeK and so on. Politicians don’t control Pakistan. ISI has limited control over these 100 terrorist orgs. Every time India talks to politicians, terrorist orgs sabotage it!
Talking to useless politicians is not going anywhere. They have confessed they don’t control the non-state (Pakistani citizens) actors. Any sensible Govt won’t start negotiations withthe state actors (ISI, JeM, Jui etc..).
Under these conditions, improving India’s internal security is the bast option. India is bidding time, hoping US will take care of the issue.
Do you have any other suggestion?
Soman:
while you are waiting for a decent response from any one out of 170million strong nuclear armed Pakistan, here is why India says Kashmir is an integral part of India.
********************************
““An ingenious example of speech and politics occurred recently in the United Nations Assembly that made the world community smile.
A representative from India began: ‘Before beginning my talk I want to tell you something about a rishi named Kashyapa of Kashmir (Kashyapa, son of Marichi, son of Brahma), after whom Kashmir is named.
When he struck a rock and it brought forth water, he thought, ‘What a good opportunity to have a bath.’ He removed his clothes, put them aside on the rock and entered the water. When he got out and wanted to dress, his clothes had vanished. A Pakistani had stolen them.’
The Pakistani representative jumped up furiously and shouted, ‘What are you talking about? The Pakistanis weren’t there at that time.’
The Indian representative smiled and said, ‘And now that we have made that clear, I will begin my speech.’
“…………….And they say Kashmir belongs to them.
**************************************** *
@We are pretty close to finishing up the touches in Swat valley. Our military has stood behind our nation’s integrity. We have managed to hang on and Pakistan is turning around. I always believed we will emerge stronger and we are doing it. Those who wrote us off have eggs on their faces. We will work on Balochistan and South Waziristan systematically. Inch by inch we will get back to stability and strength.”
— Posted by mohammed Anjum
mohammed Anjum: so no plan to finish terrorists for kashmir? Then Balochistan has freedom fighters not terrorists and pakhtunistan freedom has been layed on the solid grounds of 6 and half feet strong NON-VIOLENT PATHAN KHAN Abdul Gaffar Khan,who was mistreated by Pakistan Army and jailed for 15yrs. if you do not know the guy he was Indian freedom fighter who raised unarmed Army for freedom.
________________________________________ ____
In a public speech Gaffar Khan said:
“Where is the democracy that British gave us? Ayub Khan robbed us of it. And what did he give us in return ? He gave us his own version of democracy which does not even deserve the name of democracy.
Look at our financial position, look at our language, culture, society. He has taken it all. Look at our schools, our colleges, the education and instruction of our children. And look at his manners. I am always surprised at these people who keep telling us:”We are making such progress. Pakistan has a target and we are fast approaching it.” Actually there are several jokes in circulation about that. I will tell you one. It goes like this:
A woman said to her husband, warmly embracing him: “Darling, I want a diamond nose-ornament!” The husband replied: “Actually I was considering how I could cut off your nose altogether.”
“All we are asking is for a nose ornament, it does not even have to be diamond. But Pakistan is thinking how they can cut off our nose altogether.”
he said: “I want you and the Pakistani leaders to take a look at the misery which our Balochi brothers are living in. They have been asking and crying and shouting for their rights for the last twenty years. When nobody listened to them they had no choice but to take up arms. You all know what happened to them, the tyranny they had to suffer, the cruelties that were committed. Now Pakistan has found that the question cannot be solved by cruelty and oppression, and these poor people are told; Come on, let us sit down together and settle our dispute. It did not take me long to find out that in the heart of Pakistan there is no room for any Baluchi or Sindhi or Bengali or Pakhtun. Therefore I want my Baluchi brothers to know that the Sindhis and the Pakhtuns are just as oppressed and that our aim and objectives are the same. Pakistan’s real design will be clear if you look at Punjab. The Punjab leaders met and had discussions and consultations with their Jirga. They said “look at the Pakhtuns, they are all very rich. They have electricity you know. Then they said; look at the Sindhis, they have so much land. About the Baluchis they said, they have in their country wealth of mineral resources and gas.”
“Brothers, all this is trickery and they are only saying all this because they want it for themselves: the electricity of Pathans, the land of Sindhis and the minerals of Baluchis. Then they have this idea of “one unit”. Work it out for yourselves, is this in harmony with Islamic belief? Does Islam tell you to rob one brother of electricity, another brother of his fertile land and take possessions of the mines and minerals of another?
And you, ignorant and misguided Pathans, you do not even stop to think whether this is Islam or not, you just swallow anything you are told.”
________________________________
On August 11 1947, the British protectorate of Baluchistan declared its independence. Three days later, Pakistan also became an independent nation. But the two states coexisted for less than a year.”
In March 1948, Pakistan invaded and seized Baluchistan. Under threat of imprisonment, the traditional Baluch leader, the Khan of Kalat, Mir Ahmed Yar Khan, was pressured to sign a treaty of integration. This treaty was, however, never agreed by the Baluchistan parliament and never mandated by the Baluch people.”
Ever since, for six decades, Baluchistan has been subjected to Pakistani military occupation, political domination, economic exploitation and cultural hegemony. Pakistan is an oppressed nation turned oppressor nation. It now adopts the imperialist tactics of its former colonial overlords to subjugate and exploit the Baluch.
@The world is beginning to understand us and respect us. Pakistan has a lot to offer to the world and our strength is an important element for regional peace. If only our neighbors understood what needs to be done and co-operated with us, things would be even better. But they keep saying the same empty things like parrots.”
–Afghanistan hates Pakistan for its contrubution of taliban and Al-Qaida to them–it is parrotish to you, but it is TRUE not empty. Get used to the Truth. Yiu are going to hear it until you fix yourself.
Rajeev I am an Indian Panjabi and am quite moderate in my religious views (please do not suggest that I am pakistani impersonating a Sikh).
Yes India has contained and made steps to normalise the situation in Punjab. But many of us feel we have made compromises and feel let down. The problem is that we have no real representation in Indian politics within extreme parties like BJP, while this status quo is maintained we still feel marginalized. However BJP tries to imply that it is representing all, this is not the case, there is still the uneasiness that it has too much support of factionist hindus and I for that matter do not feel it represents us.
Yes congress has taken steps, but it will take more than the post of a Sikh as Prime Minister to allocate real power to the Sikhs and this is what needs to be worked on for us to feel a real part of India and not just contained in Punjab.
(Also releasing of films like Singh is King is carricaturing and does not help matters.)
“Lastly, be rest assured India WILL NEVER attain its rightful place in the world unless relations with Pakistan are friendly. Because its only PAKISTAN in all your neighboring countries that has the will and the power to confront you”
Again with same melodramatic macho confrontational attitude. I hate to break the news to you but India is on it’s way to attaining it’s place in the world as we speak, in spite of Pakistan. Pakistan might have held India back in the past but not anymore. Maybe, you haven’t read an int’l business paper/journal recently but for the year 2009, more foreign money has been invested in India than any other nation in the world, including China. It is hosting the next commonwealth games & you can be rest assured that someday it’ll host the Olympics as well. Today the whole world has a stake in India & after the next confrontation (terror attack), Pakistan will not only get a strong response from India but it will also get a response from the world & it will be shunned & isolated diplomatically. So you guys should think about the reppercussions before planning anymore confrontations. India is moving & will continue to move forward in spite of your ‘confrontations’, it doesn’t matter anymore. So, it’s up to you guys now, whether you wanna keep living with a vengeful, belligerent & confrontational attitude or give up the hate & become a friendly neighbor. You guys have a chance to make amends, change the way you did things in the past & make a fresh start. Whether you chose to do it or not, is entirely up to you.
“you Indians look towards Mumbai attacks as an incident where 10 terrorists killed 162 innocent people. But can you look into the intangible damage it has done?”
You can talk to any Pakistani diplomat/foreign relations adviser and he/she will tell you that the Mumbai attacks has caused more harm to Pakistan’s reputation, internationally than probably any other incident in history. It was actually the first time that almost every country in the world sided with India & openly criticized Pakistan. As horrific & sad the incident itself was, the aftermath was a big diplomatic victory for India & arguably the biggest diplomatic loss for Pakistan. When the Mumbai attacks happened last November, I remember it was the 4 day ‘thanksgiving day’ weekend here in the US & every news channel (CNN, Fox, MSNBC, ABC, CBS etc) covered it day & night while beaming the same headline: ‘Pakistani terrorists attack Mumbai’. It was probably the most covered incident by mainstream American media other than 9/11 or the Obama election. Don’t you think that Pakistan’s reputation took a massive bruisng during & after that incident?
“you Indians look towards Mumbai attacks as an incident where 10 terrorists killed 162 innocent people. But can you look into the intangible damage it has done?” – Posted by Umair
You can talk to any Pakistani diplomat/foreign relations adviser and he/she will tell you that the Mumbai attacks has caused more harm to Pakistan’s reputation, internationally than probably any other incident in history. It was actually the first time that almost every country in the world sided with India & openly criticized Pakistan. As horrific & sad the incident itself was, the aftermath was a big diplomatic victory for India & arguably the biggest diplomatic loss for Pakistan. When the Mumbai attacks happened last November, I remember it was the 4 day ‘thanksgiving day’ weekend here in the US & every news channel (CNN, Fox, MSNBC, ABC, CBS etc) covered it day & night while beaming the same headline: ‘Pakistani terrorists attack Mumbai’. It was probably the most covered incident by mainstream American media other than 9/11 or the Obama election. Don’t you think that Pakistan’s reputation took a massive bruisng during & after that incident?
Dumb tactics, Balochistan has never asked for autonomy, there is no such thing as a Punjabistan movement in Pakistan and Pakistan is in no danger of imploding, we are one of the few countires able to protect ourselves with nuclear defence.
However there is the uncomfortable issue of
Khalistan possibly waiting to ignite, Nagaland and Indias many unhappy minorities who are sick of losing out to hindu nationalist.
Rohit opinions of people like you is exactly what Im talking about and these leave me less then comfatable!
Kashmiri:
I think you are an impostor. You seem to be Pakistani cuz Kashmiris don’t write like this. Also you claim a lot and accuse a lot without any evidences.
So it’s best to ignore you!
CALLING SOMAN AND ANY OTHER INDIANS
You dont have to discuss Kashmir with Pakistan, but as
many Kashmiris have discussed why dont you ask the
KASHMIRIS WHAT THEY WANT
- Posted by Fima
Thank you for your concern! We don’t need you as a lawyer or mediator. We are talking to talking to Kashmiris everyday and that’s an internal matter of India.
Kashmiris have elected a Govt recently with more than 70% votes. A record turnaround compared to India’s national elections. We are talking to the elected Govt, Opposition and the militant leaders in Kashmir. Most of the the militant leaders have given up guns and are part of the peace process.
Please do us two favors:
1. Keep your terrorists on your side of border because your investments are not paying off!
2. Vacate the occupied Kashmir (PoK) before we make you do so. Just vacate and go! What makes you think you deserve that? What are the Chinese doing there? Does that area belong to Kashmiris or Chinese?
CALLING SOMAN AND ANY OTHER INDIANS
You dont have to discuss Kashmir with Pakistan, but as
many Kashmiris have discussed why dont you ask the
KASHMIRIS WHAT THEY WANT
- Posted by Fima
Thank you for your concern! We don’t need you as a lawyer or mediator. We are talking to talking to Kashmiris everyday and that’s an internal matter of India.
Kashmiris have elected a Govt recently with more than 70% votes. A record turnaround compared to India’s national elections. We are talking to the elected Govt, Opposition and the militant leaders in Kashmir. Most of the the militant leaders have given up guns and are part of the peace process.
Please do us two favors:
1. Vacate the occupied Kashmir (PoK) before we make you do so. Just vacate and go! What makes you think you deserve that? What are the Chinese doing there? Does that area belong to Kashmiris or Chinese?
2. Keep your terrorists on your side of border because your investments are not paying off!
CALLING SOMAN AND ANY OTHER INDIANS
You dont have to discuss Kashmir with Pakistan, but as
many Kashmiris have discussed why dont you ask the
KASHMIRIS WHAT THEY WANT
- Posted by Fima
Thank you for your concern! We don’t need you as a lawyer or mediator. We are talking to talking to Kashmiris everyday and that’s an internal matter of India.
Kashmiris have elected a Govt recently with more than 70% votes. A record turnaround compared to India’s national elections. We are talking to the elected Govt, Opposition and the militant leaders in Kashmir. Most of the the militant leaders have given up guns and are part of the peace process.
Please do us two favors:
1. Vacate the occupied Kashmir (PoK) before we make you do so. Just vacate and go! What makes you think you deserve that? What are the Chinese doing there? Does that area belong to Kashmiris or Chinese?
2. Keep your terrorists on your side of border because your investments are not paying off! You are bankrupt and civilians are dying!
Which Kasmiris are you talking to, your puppets???
Everyone knows those elections were a sham because majority of Kashmiris rioted and protested against them.
Whose the imposter, why dont you give some details as your knowledge of Kashmir, its poeple is laughable
@ Amrit, you said
“I am an Indian Panjabi and am quite moderate in my religious views (please do not suggest that I am pakistani impersonating a Sikh).”
“Yes India has contained and made steps to normalise the situation in Punjab. But many of us feel we have made compromises and feel let down. The problem is that we have no real representation in Indian politics within extreme parties like BJP, while this status quo is maintained we still feel marginalized. However BJP tries to imply that it is representing all, this is not the case, there is still the uneasiness that it has too much support of factionist hindus and I for that matter do not feel it represents us.Yes congress has taken steps, but it will take more than the post of a Sikh as Prime Minister to allocate real power to the Sikhs and this is what needs to be worked on for us to feel a real part of India and not just contained in Punjab.
(Also releasing of films like Singh is King is carricaturing and does not help matters.)”
Amrit, you start by saying that you are not impersonating a Sikh. Taking into account that what you say is true, your post suggests otherwise or you must think on levels of far right.
You say that India has taken some steps to normalize the situation, and you still feel let down? You don’t talk like an Indian (the majority), but keep on harping on what India has not offered. How many factions of religions (not pointing to one) India had to appease for everyone to be happy? For once stop being self centric and act as an Indian. We put the Nationality first here and Religion next, unlike other nations.
What do you mean by real power to Sikhs? You are in a democratic country. you can always use this power to get that real power you are talking about. If your views are widely accepted, you will be given that real power by the people themselves. Who asked you to get contained in punjab alone? There are lot of Sikhs who have made it big in other Indian cities and towns as well.
Releasing films like “Singh is King” is not caricaturing. It is pure entertainment. You just cannot take one film and point out (i don’t find anything demeaning to Sikhs in the film either). What about the other thousand released all across India? Get out of your well and think like an Indian first (if you are one)
Fima you said
“Which Kasmiris are you talking to, your puppets???
Everyone knows those elections were a sham because majority of Kashmiris rioted and protested against them.
Whose the imposter, why dont you give some details as your knowledge of Kashmir, its poeple is laughable”
A section of Kashmiris and rioters protested. For you they were original kashmiris and all others puppets? Shows your bias towards others there itself. Kashmir is already divided now (a part occupied by pakistan). You are always free to go live in POK if you want to stay with pakistan. Good for you and good riddance for India.
Every citizen of India is entitled to Kashmir as they are entitled to the rest of the country. Kashmir is not entirely yours to divide it as you like. It is an integral part of India and will always be.
Majority protested? A handful of out of work thugs protesting and fuelled by hate mongering mullahs is not a majortiy. Try doing that in your beloved pakistan and you will be roasted to death. Be happy you live in a democracy, or go to pakistan where you would be treated as second grade citizen for generations to come.
India has already given away part of kashmir (thanks to eunuch politicians)in the past. Now Indians have learned their lessons, and not one inch will be given away now
@Everyone knows those elections were a sham.
- Posted by Fima
FIMA: Sir/Madam: who is “everyone”. Certainly not those kashmiris who voted and baffled the separatists by heavy turnout. Show some credible news to prove your point that the elections were sham. Do not embarass yourself. It was free and fair elections.
http://newshopper.sulekha.com/india-gene ral-elections-2009/news/kashmir-separati sts-baffled-by-high-voter-turnout.htm
How are Kashmiris in POK doing?