India and Pakistan: looking beyond the rhetoric

September 5, 2009

With so much noise around these days in the relationship between India and Pakistan it is hard to make out a clear trend.  Politicians and national media in both countries have reverted to trading accusations, whether it be about their nuclear arsenals, Pakistani action against Islamist militants blamed for last year’s Mumbai attacks or alleged violations of a ceasefire on the Line of Control dividing Kashmir. Scan the headlines on a Google news search on India and Pakistan and you get the impression of a relationship fraught beyond repair.

Does that mean that attempts to find a way back into peace talks broken off after the Mumbai attacks are going nowhere? Not necessarily. In the past the background noise of angry rhetoric has usually obscured real progress behind the scenes, and this time around may be no exception.

MORE TALKS

The Hindu newspaper reported on Sept 1 that Prime Minister Manmohan Singh may meet either the president or prime minister of Pakistan on the sidelines of a Commonwealth summit in Trinidad in November. It said the Indian government was already working out what strategy to adopt to make any meeting meaningful, while also pushing Pakistan to take more action against Pakistan-based militant groups in order to prevent another Mumbai-style attack.

There is no confirmation of that Trinidad meeting, and nor is there likely to be for some time, but The Hindu in recent months has proved to be well informed about the prime minister’s approach to Pakistan. Singh himself laid out his plans in a speech in parliament in July in which he promised a “step by step” approach to dialogue – effectively meaning that India would talk to Pakistan while refusing for now to reopen a formal peace process broken off after the Mumbai attacks.

The two countries’ foreign ministers are also expected to talk on the sidelines of the U.N. General Assembly in New York this month, although it is unclear whether this would be preceded by a meeting of foreign secretaries in line with an agreement reached in July that the top diplomats of India and Pakistan should meet ”as often as necessary”.  The Hindu said the foreign secretaries would meet in New York; more recent newspaper reports have called this into question.

DISMANTLING JAMMU AND KASHMIR?

In the meantime, both countries are edging forward in their approach to the two parts of Jammu and Kashmir which they control. (After their first war in 1947/48 the former princely state was divided into the regions of Ladakh, Kashmir and Jammu which are held by India, and the regions of Gilgit and Baltistan along with an area known as Azad Kashmir which are held by Pakistan.)

According to Praveen Swami, a Kashmir expert at The Hindu, the Indian government has been holding secret talks over the summer with the main political separatist alliance in Kashmir, the All Parties Hurriyat Conference, to try to agree an approach to bring peace to the region. ”Perhaps most important,” he said, “Pakistan is being asked to endorse the talks.”

Over on its side of the border, the Pakistan government has decided to grant limited autonomy to Gilgit and Baltistan. It had previously run the region  directly from Islamabad, much to the irritation of local people who felt they had been deprived of their political rights to the kind of self-rule given to Pakistani provinces. 

To digress briefly into history, the princely state of Jammu and Kashmir was created in the 19th century by Hindu Dogra rulers expanding outwards from their base in Jammu and comprising people of different linguistic, ethnic and religious groups.  Were it not for the tremendous importance given to Jammu and Kashmir by both India and Pakistan – both of which claim the state in full – it might have broken up naturally years ago.

The people of Gilgit and Baltistan never felt much loyalty to the former maharajah of Jammu and Kashmir and have long complained that they have been held hostage to the Kashmir dispute (you hear the same complaints from Ladakhis on the Indian side.)

So do the parallel moves on both India and Pakistan suggest both countries are taking small steps towards an eventual dismantling of the former princely state which would allow a settlement of the long-running Kashmir dispute? Not quite – Pakistan has been careful to say it is not giving full provincial status to Gilgit and Baltistan. There are also historical grounds for treating the region differently from other parts of Jammu and Kashmir, which date back to partition and before.

Yet given that anything to do with Jammu and Kashmir is potentially explosive, reactions to the Pakistan government’s move on Gilgit and Baltistan have so far been relatively muted. Dawn newspaper said that the decision stuck a balance between meeting the aspirations of its people for political rights and maintaining the region’s status as disputed territory. The Daily Times said that the people of Gilgit and Baltistan had been held hostage to the Kashmir dispute for long enough and should eventually be incorporated as a full province of Pakistan. On the Indian side, I’ve seen criticism from the opposition Bharatiya Janata Party but nothing from the government.

A roadmap for peace sketched out by Singh and former president Pervez Musharraf in 2007 effectively acknowledged the division of the state by accepting there would be no exchange of territory between the two countries – although both pledged to try to make borders irrelevant. That agreement was shelved when Musharraf’s own political fortunes nosedived.  But are the governments of India and Pakistan nonetheless following some of the signposts in that roadmap despite all the angry rhetoric currently dominating their relationship? And if so, how far are they exchanging information about their plans?

WILD CARDS

Just in case the above looks too rosy a view on the prospects of progress in relations between India and Pakistan, it is probably worth remembering it can all go wrong, particularly if there is another major militant attack in India.

The other wild card comes from the transformation of the political landscape in India with the implosion of the opposition right-wing BJP initially triggered by the furore over a book on Pakistan’s founder Mohammad Ali Jinnah by former senior BJP leader Jaswant Singh. So far the jury remains out on how the political drama will play out. Analysts variously predict a collapse of the right, or its opposite – a revival of the right as the BJP returns to its hardline anti-Pakistan Hindu nationalist roots in an attempt to reinvent itself after losing two consecutive general elections. Until the political landscape becomes clearer, India’s Congress-led government is likely to tread cautiously.

(Reuters file photos: Prime Minister Manmohan Singh in Siachen; Singh with Pakistan President Asif Ali Zardari in Russia; Dal lake in Srinagar; Drass on the Line of Control; former Indian foreign minister Jaswant Singh)

158 comments

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It seems that Pakistan is the only party who seems to be moving beyond the rhetoric, even if unwillingly.
India and the United Nations need to uphold the pledge to hold a plebiscite so that the people of this region can
decide their fate and autonomy

Posted by Alice | Report as abusive

Some hope if we ever know who controls Pakistan!

Saudi King invites Pakistan leaders and Chief Justice to Jeddah to discuss Musharraf trial
http://www.sindhtoday.net/news/1/47506.h tm

Posted by Patrick | Report as abusive

Nice refreshing article and the leaders who struggled for freedom from British never would have wanted our present to be this way… Being neighbours it is inevitable that our destinies would constantly cross over each others path. Unless there is vision of peace & properity itune with the times and leaders not choosing to stay in the wrong side of the history, there would be wrong decisions. My simple advice – get over it and get real. Human minds evolve, clear the neanderthals…

Posted by Praveen | Report as abusive

Pakistan and Peace!!! Like the sun rising from west!!!

What is ISI going to do? How will army justify the fat secret budget and the secret projects? Are the thousands of militants and their mentors going to Mecca for permanent pilligrimmage?

“He said the Taliban agreed to take care of the defence of the western border, as long as the Pakistan army was needed on the eastern front with India?”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/82 39031.stm

Posted by Robin | Report as abusive

What a blatantly one-sided article this is. But then what do you expect from a foreign news agency, which is one of the instruments of Western control over world media.

THe BJP’s return to its hardline anti-Pakistan Hindu nationalist roots indeed!

The author is unaware that it was the NDA Government under the BJP that began the peace process and composite dialogue with Pakistan!

Why not get a better informed author to write?

Posted by Ritika Goswami | Report as abusive

‘On Noises from India’-The stand of India is endorsed by international community,especially by the US,UK,France,Russia( security council members,barring China, which has a stake in Pakistan) on the following.
-That Pakistan is training militants in its part of Kashmir and also within Pakistan.
-fermenting unrest in India area of Kashmir.
- infiltrates into Indian border
-is hiding Interpol Red noticed criminals like Dawood of ,Memon and Mehsud.
-misusing the missiles supplied by US to handle terrorists for use against India by modifying the design of the weapon
-circulates fake Indian currency through Nepal Prince
-ISI of Pakistan had a hand in Bombay Hotel blast
Is this noise or fact?
Regarding Gilgit and Balitsan and partition.-you have got details wrong.Refer ‘Freedom at Midnight’ by La Pierre.
Regarding autonomy for these regions-In Pakistan all area are de facto autonomous regions as on date as there is no central authority and nobody knows who is calling the shots,ISI,Army,Civilian Govt. or terrorists.
However hard India tries, we are unable make a headway mainly because in Pakistan as nobody seems to be in control, you do not know whom to negotiate with nor are you sure whether commitments will be honored.
As fo as BJP is concerned ,when in power, BJP tried to finalize agreement with Musharaff; he got cold feet and ran away in the midst of talks ,after holding a Press Conference in India.
Tell us what can be done?

Pakistan blame Lanka for Lahore attack: Gilani
http://cricketnext.in.com/news/pakistan- blame-lanka-for-lahore-attack/43732-13.h tml

Are they ever going to blame themselves or their cuddly state sponsored punjabi terrorists? Does Gilani know what goes on in his country or is he supposed to blame others no matter what the evidences show? Did he not see attack video footage? What kind of PM is this dude?

Posted by Robin | Report as abusive

“Siddiqui is a daughter of Pakistan,” she said.

According to her U.S. indictment, items found in Siddiqui’s handbag at the time of her arrest included notes on making explosives and chemical weapons as well as descriptions of a “mass casualty attack” that listed various New York City landmarks.

Pakistan Prime Minister Yusuf Raza Gilani met with Siddiqui’s sister at the prime minister’s residence last month and assured Pakistan would seek Siddiqui’s release from U.S. detention and had approved $2 million for her defense, Pakistani media reported.
http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticN ews/idUSTRE5816E120090902

What about the sons of Pakistan in Mumbai jail or Morgue for Mumbai attacks?

Pak refusing to take bodies of 26/11 terrorists
http://www.ptinews.com/news/224539_Pak-r efusing-to-take-bodies-of-26-11-terroris ts

Posted by Parrick | Report as abusive

who the (hell) is ‘Alice’???

Posted by Rohit Lal | Report as abusive

Topic is “Pakistan: Now or Never?”

How do u always manage to sneak India in between?

Posted by Soman | Report as abusive

Alice,

The UN plebiscite option designed in Aug 1948 is outdated and cannot be implemented. Why? Because, Pakistan never acted on the conditions of the plebiscite which was first to withdraw all of its troops and buffer forces – the mujahadin – from the kingdom of Jammu and Kashmir; which it never did. Pakistan also unilaterally gave away Aksai Chin without asking the people of J&K or without talking to the UN.

Posted by Nikhil | Report as abusive

Alice Says:
India and the United Nations need to uphold the pledge to hold a plebiscite so that the people of this region can
decide their fate and autonomy

If someone wants to tome-travel, sure ..

Steps need to be taken for a plebiscite:
1. Cancel 1972 Simla agreement
2. Cancel 1962 Indus water treaty
3. Pakistan demilitarize all occupied Kashmir

Then we reach conditions needed for plebiscite

Pakistan can fulfill the first three conditions.. doesn’t need any help.

Posted by Ramon | Report as abusive

@ S.V. Ramanan: You said: “Regarding Gilgit and Balitsan and partition.-you have got details wrong.Refer ‘Freedom at Midnight’ by La Pierre.”

Can you be more specific? I don’t have my copy of Freedom at Midnight here. What detail specifically do you think is wrong?

@Rikita Goswani: You write: “The author is unaware that it was the NDA Government under the BJP that began the peace process and composite dialogue with Pakistan!”

That’s a shame that you make such an easy assumption of ignorance. But then you are presumably also aware that the backchannel diplomacy was started under Vajpayee, and that the 2003 ceasefire was agreed before the composite dialogue began? This is precisely my point: that what you see on the surface does not always reflect what is going on behind the scenes.

@Nikhil – a small point on Pakistan ceding land to China since it comes up a lot. The 1963 agreement ceding the Shaksgam Valley clearly says that it is pending a final settlement of the Kashmir dispute.

Myra

Posted by Myra MacDonald | Report as abusive

To plebiscite supporters:
1. Lets do a plebiscite in Balochistan and FATA First.
2. Let Pakistan ask the same publicly from China for Tibet, E. Turkistan and Mongolian.

Why! What’s wrong? Plebiscite is not a good model for them. Plebiscite only applies to India???

King of Kashmir signed an accession treaty with India. Can Pakistan show it’s accession treaty with Kashmir or Balochistan? Can China show it’s accession treaty with Tibet or E. Turkistan?

Posted by Ramin | Report as abusive

Myra Says:
@Nikhil – a small point on Pakistan ceding land to China since it comes up a lot. The 1963 agreement ceding the Shaksgam Valley clearly says that it is pending a final settlement of the Kashmir dispute.

Myra,
Now I am sure, you are a Pakistan sympathizer. Indian anger towards Mumbai attacks that killed 170 people is rhetoric to you.

Anyway, we can deal with all Talibans and sympathizers. You missed Nikhil’s point! Did Pakistan consult with Kashmiris before ceding that area to China? Can Pakistan bring back that area? If so, (which is unrealistic) let Pakistan do this first before any meaningful arguments can begin.

The truth is China took that area forcibly from Pakistan. Initially, Pakistan thought of going to war against China, but later changed mind and asked China for all kinds of help against India.

Posted by Soman | Report as abusive

I do not think, now we need any expert or pundit to tell where and how the relationship between two countries is going towards. Obviously, it is not going towards peace particularly after 26/11 and the developments took place so far after 26/11. As long as ISI and Pakistani army are going to remain the key players behind scenes, political establishment in Pakistan will never seriously work with India to put an end to cross-boarder terrorism and find practical solutions for various contentitous issues with India.
After all, you cannot talk peace having gun in your hand…however Pakistan is used to this attitude. The external players – US and China, will keep pleasing Pakistan army with arms and ammunition aids. US, I think, will never be confident fighting a war against Al-Quida and parties without the help of Pakistan army, and for China, it is in its interest to keep fuel the fire.

Posted by Pawan K | Report as abusive

[...] India and Pakistan: looking beyond the rhetoricIn the meantime, both countries are edging forward in their approach to the two parts of Jammu and Kashmir which they control. (After their first war in … Read at Reuters Blogs [...]

Some commenters are stuck with rhetoric.

“Pakistan never acted on the conditions of the plebiscite which was first to withdraw all of its troops and buffer forces”

Did India do otherwise? Withdrawal can not be unilateral. There are numerous UN resolutions, how many of them ever honored by India? Now we are talking about world media consensus, what about formal consensus of international body called UN general assembly? Because India in the changed-world weight more than it deserved due to western fear of Chinese influence and desperate search for counter influence. It does not make much difference for Pakistan.

Pakistan is to stay no matter what. If Kashmir dispute remains, there will be continued hostility in the region. Sane and rational minds should go beyond rhetoric; attempt to resolve the issue with mutual compromise and get beyond for the sake of regional development. India has more at stake than Pakistan does. Even complete destruction of Pakistan would tend to compromise Indian future. Think what it look like with seven million refugees armed and angry. That is what Pakistan got for three decades after Afghanistan been destabilized. Can India afford the similar situation on its border? I don’t think so. Rational thinking requires acting now and going beyond rhetoric.

Posted by AAfromUSA | Report as abusive

This is a usual article by Myra. I have a feel this Indo Pak topic will be a endless time pass for writers like Myra, Sanjeev and many many more writers. People like Jaswant, Advani and numerous other sickulars will also take a chance to poke in their ludicrous statement that Jinnah was secular. Bloggers will construct/ deconstruct theories and end up with nothing. However, there was one new thing in this post… “With so much noise around these days in the relationship between India and Pakistan it is hard to make out a clear trend.”… I am interested to know when there was a clear trend in Indo Pak relations? In my humble opinion, the current trend is as clear as it had been always… A ping pong game of words to be broken temporarily by events like Indo Pak battle of 1947, 1965, 1971, 1999 and numerous countless acts of terrorism and skirmishes which appear and disappear. What both countries need is a good decisive war. 62 years of dialogue didn’t bring any result and nor will dialogue for another 60 years even with United States, the #1 Governance/ Misgovernance Corporate Inc of world readying up for sale of ammunitions to both sides and role of professional broker (commission not defined) on Indo Pak Relationship Management Project. The war will help both countries to contain population and related food and water security and also give peace a real chance to flourish for longer periods of time in between two skirmishes/ battles. It will also create multiple opportunities across the world for everyone (not US alone but everyone) and help to come out from pressure of financial market scam based on mindless speculation. The war will also help to breed good leaders of caliber who are go getters unlike past and current breed of all words, stabbers in back, raking in money leaders.

Posted by Rohit | Report as abusive

Why is it that as soon as Kashmir is discussed the bogey man of the militants comes out of the Indian closet. Kashmir is one of the most militarized places on the map today surely a handful of militants cant throw the Indian military or malign the right of these people.

And also keep the terrorist stories out of the equation.
FACT the people of Kashmir need to decide their future and have their plebiscite the rest is just Indian hysteria.

Posted by Fima | Report as abusive

Rohit Lal mind mind your manners. I am not a dalit in your country you can treat like dirt.
One can equally say who the hell are you, not that one cares!

Posted by Alice | Report as abusive

To Fima:

Kashmir’s history need to be carefuly studied before you talk about plebiscite. First we need to determine how Islamists got in there and then plan how to return land back to those persons who had the first right on Kashmir. Simply because Muslims are in Kashmir does not mean that Kashmir is a seperate territory from India. It is like saying Xinjiang in China does not belong to China becase Muslims live there.

Posted by Rohit | Report as abusive

Myra,

Here is a clip showing an educated Indian muslim schooling Pakistani ex president Musharaff during his trip to Delhi recently. As you see, Musharaff has no credible response or answer.

Muslims are treated much better in India and have more potential than those in Pakistan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kP9JCusfj e0&NR=1

I doubt it is legal to show this clip in Pakistan.

Kashmiri muslims, some of them have been so deluded with propaganda, they just don’t know it, but things are good there and can be much better for them, if they choose to be patriotic Indians, rather than separatists and useless puppets of Pakistan fueled separatism.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

Fima :
Talk of plebiscite is irrelevant. If Pakistan wanted plebiscite:

1. It shouldn’t have entered to other agreements. Indus agreement legalizes the borders Shimla agreements supersedes all previous agreements.
2. Pakistan leaders have multiple times declared that they will follow Shimla agreement to settle any dispute.
3. After multiple state elections (more than 60% votes in each) in Kashmir, Pakistan should forget any dreams about Kashmir.
4. What

Why Pakistan needs Kashmir? Pakistan is bought by Saudis and Chinese now. Do you know Saudis are buying 700,000 hectors and UAE buying 300,000 hectors of agriculture land in Pakistan? Do you know Chinese are buying all the steel mills and hydro-electric dams in Pakistan. What will you or you children in such a country? Apply to Chinese or Saudis for a job in Pakistan?

It is time you think about building your own country and not burning other countries. But we all know, your country is beyond repair now, so it is convenient for you to break other countries. You are only wasting your time and other’s time.

Posted by SOman | Report as abusive

Pakistan is a rented state with an army and nukes for rent. What do they need Kashmir for? To conduct nuke tests in Kashmir or set up more taliban training camps?

Pakistan used to do all underground nuke in Balochistan, but seems like that option won’t be available for too long. So they need new testing sites!

Also all taliban training camps from Punjab are moving to Pak-occupied-Kashmir now. There is tension between local Kashmiris and Talibans. So Taliban needs more camp sites!

Posted by Eddy | Report as abusive

Its not that Pakistan wants a plebiscite us Kashmiris want a plebiscite. To those here who suggest that our struggle is a handful few who have been brainwashed by Pakistan is trying to insult our intelligence or not using your own.

For over 50 years we have been subjuagetd, I am a Kashmiri ask me what I have seen the atrocities I have seen the Indian army commit against our people. Get out of your bollywood zone and come and see the reality in Kashmir.

Whether we chose to be with a terrorist state or an independent state should be our decision not yours, Indians.

You can pour as much money, military resources etc but Kashmir will never be a part of India. Maybe its time you Indians woke up to this fact instead of deluding yourselves and spend your resources on some good in your own country.

We have struggled and will struggle for another 5o years,
Kashmir is not in India, India is in Kashmir!

Posted by S Wani | Report as abusive

Yes Its time to demystify the real issue. Let them decide their future and the militants will have no excuse.

The rest are just tactics which have been played for too long to deny the Kashmiris what they want.

Posted by Alice | Report as abusive

As a kashmiri who’s suffered at the hands of both India & Pakistan, I have to say that for all it’s misgivings, we kashmiris are much better off with India than we could ever be with the ‘failed state’ of Pakistan. We were living peacefully & happily till the late 1980s when Pakistan decided to unleash it’s terrorists in our valley. In no way am I siding with the Indian forces, who have also committed their share of atrocities on us but I & many of my fellow kashmiris are of the opinion that if Pakistani terrorists (both ‘state’ & ‘non-state’ actors) stop infiltrating into Indian Kashmir, Indian military will reduce it’s presence & we’ll live peacefully again. We would much rather be with a progressive & secular India than with a regressive, radical & lawless Pakistan, which has become a failed state & surviving on whatever the world puts in its begging bowl. The truth is that Pakistan doesn’t have any sympathies for us kashmiris, it is simply interested in paying back India for it’s own shameful defeat & dismemberment in 1971. The fact that Pakistan lays claim on kashmir when more than half of it’s own territory is out of it’s control, is quite ridiculous.

Posted by Bilaal Butt | Report as abusive

S Wani:
It’s too late. You should have stopped your king from signing the accession treaty. India was not going to save Kashmir from Pakistan sponsored mercenaries, who were raping, plundering, killing and invading Kashmir. You King came begging for help and signed the accession treaty. Then only Indian army went to save Kashmiris. So many Indian soldiers died saving Kashmiris. You are being thankless now!

It’s too late to change history. There are barely 10-15 million muslims in Kashmir. 60%-70% of those voted in last election for Indian democracy. There are 180 million muslims in India, who chose to live in India and didn’t go to Pakistan. Status of Kashmir affects their dreams and future as well. Kashmir belongs to them and to all Indians as well!

Kashmir doesn’t belong to you only that you will grab it and run wherever you like! Only a war will change borders. Sending few terrorists in the night will not get you Kashmir. It will only make India stronger and Pakistan weaker. Can you notice the changes in India and Pakistan after 26/11!

Few people like you tried last elections and didn’t get 1000 (less than 0.001%) votes and lost deposits. Some others like you couldn’t get 100 signatures to file for nomination. This tells about the popularity of people like you are. Did you not see the long lines of women at voting stations, who dared to vote in spite of militant’s threat to cut off hands?

Just people like you hide militants in their homes and whole village has to be searched. If you were living in Pakistan, Pakistani Govt might have sold you to Guantanamo Bay prison. If you were living in China, Chinese Govt might have jailed, executed you and sold your organs on e-Bay. Thank God that you are still living in a free country and asking for more freedom! These are the privileges of living in a democracy.

But if you want to live in Pakistani Kashmir (Pok), who stopped you! There are daily buses and trains. Just go and lets us live.

Posted by Andy | Report as abusive

Yes Its time to demystify the real issue. Let them decide their future and the militants will have no excuse.
- Posted by Alice

I am glad that at least you owned up the terrorists. Pakistani Govt has not done that so far. One Pakistani terrorist is going through trials and 9 are lying dead in a morgue for almost a year. And you Govt keeps saying they are not Pakistanis. This is the worst ever humiliation for any Pakistani, when you Govt is so ashamed that it can’t even claim you as a citizen. Never heard any civilized country doing this. Even N. Korea, Libya accept their citizens.

Consequences:
1. UK is deporting 10000 Pakistanis.
2. US doesn’t welcome any Pakistani on soil and watching / jailing those already on soil.
3. JuD is UN banned by UN and even China couldn’t help. Next time Pakistan might be declared a terrorist state, like Libya.
4. Next time, FoDP may not help you.
5. If militants will have no excuse, drones will have no excuse not to fly all over Pakistan.

So, think about actions and the reactions.

Posted by Ramon | Report as abusive

I’ve been reading some of the comments & as a Baloch (originally from Barkhan, now settled in Canada),
I’d like to address my Kashmiri brothers:
Whatever you chose to do, please don’t ever integrate into Pakistan. We, Balochs made that mistake decades ago & are paying the price even today. Pakistan is run by scheming punjabis & those punjabis will suck your land of all it’s resources, exploit & plunder you & then hang you out to dry. This is what they have done with us, with the Pashtuns, with the Sindhis & mark my words, this is exactly what they’ll do with you. I don’t know what the ground reality is over there but if you can, make your peace with India & remain a part of it as I feel that India is rapidly moving towards being a global power. If you can’t reconcile with the Indians, go for your independance, although I think it’s unrealistic given your location. But whatever you do, don’t ever ever integrate into Pakistan. If you think that the Indian army is ruthless, wait till you deal with the barbaric & merciless Pakistani army which conducts genocides without blinking an eyelid. There’s a saying that ‘the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence’. So think before you do anything. May allah be with you.

Posted by Akhtar Babajan | Report as abusive

We have struggled and will struggle for another 5o years,
Kashmir is not in India, India is in Kashmir!
- Posted by S Wani

Who is stopping you! You can struggle and protest in a democracy. It is allowed in India. It’s not China, where they shoot you and organ-harvest your body. Not Pakistan where your relatives will find your bullet-riddled body in a mass graveyard!

But be aware that your daily protests are only harming Kashmiri businesses, economy and progress. And stay away from stray bullets!

When you get time or wisdom, think about what have you achieved in last 30 years what you want to achieve in next 50 years? Pakistani politicians play Kashmir to get votes. ISI plays Kashmir to justify it’s existence and secret fat budget. But have you gained playing puppet to them?

If not for Indian police, US drones will be flying on Sri Nagar now!

Posted by Soman | Report as abusive

Pakistan’s one & only contribution to the world: TERRORISM

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32722511/ns/ world_news-terrorism

Posted by brewer | Report as abusive

THANK YOU Mr. Bilaal Butt.

We love you too! And can’t agree more with you. I do feel your pain. Hope things will improve as soon as Pakistan stops sending mercenaries. But whenever you notice any police/army brutality, please camcorder it and send it to national media. Only that way, we can share your pain and suffering.

Just some facts:
1. 2005 Kashmir earthquake victims in PoK are still living under tents or open sky after 4 years of earthquake. US, UK NGOs and Redcross are feeding these people. Pakistan Govt doesn’t have the money or will to help these people. No single Pakistani leader has visited these people in last 4 years.

2. Pakistan army started killing it’s own people in East Pakistan when they demanded equal rights with West Pakistan. Three million Bangladeshis had already killed and 30000 women raped when India decided to step in and protect the survivors.

3. East Pakistanis who wanted to migrate West Pakistan after after 1971 separation were not accepted by Pakistan and 750000 continue to live in tents in Dacca. Those who managed to migrate to West Pakistan are called Mohajirs and are not given equal rights.

4. Pakistan is still continuing this habit in Balochistan: Selling all Baluchi natural resources to China, Making Baluchois a minority in their homeland, kidnappings, rape and disappearances of Baluchi nationals. Chinese get VIP security when they plunder Balochistan and Baluchis get bombed from air when demand equal rights and job.

5. Same thing repeats in FATA. If you don’t support ISI activities in Afghanistan, then you are declared Taliban and your locations are sent to CIA drones.

How can Pakistan even morally even ask for Kashmir? Do they have a morality when hiding Bangladeshi war criminals or UN/Interpol declared international criminals!!!

Posted by Soman | Report as abusive

AAfromUSA

You said, “Did India do otherwise? Withdrawal can not be unilateral. There are numerous UN resolutions, how many of them ever honored by India?”

- There was only one UN resolution. India did not take its troops out because the UN resolution did not ask for it. Pakistan, on the other hand, was mandated to withdraw its troops and the mujahidin out of the kingdom of Jammu and Kashmir. Pakistan has never honored the condition for the plebiscite.

The Shimla Agreement between India and Pakistan in 1972 ousted any direct foreign intervention. Under it, Indo-Pak were to solve Kashmir issue peacefully. That, again, Pakistan did not honor; instead Pak pushed mujahadin from the soviet war in to Kashmir and spread mayhem there.

Posted by Nikhil | Report as abusive

Bilaal Butt:
Only people like you can save the future of Kashmir. Tell our brothers in PoK to save their future from Chinese occupation. Don’t let Pok be another Lasha or Urumi!

Pakistan recently declared PoK areas Gilgit-Baltistan as provinces and handed-over all dams and hydro-electric projects to China.

1. Punjabi leaders in Islamabad and Lahore will get more power and bigger ACs.

2. Chinese will invest and own these hydro-electric projects. Chinese will get jobs and free houses in Kashmir. Chinese seldom employ locals. So no jobs or opportunities for local Kashmiris. If you demand more jobs, you will be called Talibans and bombed from air.

3. Slowly Chinese will move to all other areas like mining, construction or small industry and colonize PoK. Slowly Kashmiris will be minority in PoK. Then Lasha or Urumi will be repeated in PoK.

China has already done this in Balochistan, Africa, Iraq. Kashmir is next!
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/06/world/ middleeast/06iraqoil.html?_r=1&em

Posted by NORA | Report as abusive

Alice,

I’m sure you’d suggest the same solution – let people decide and the militants will have no excuse – in Balochistan or Swat? Are you suggesting Pakistan should withdraw its troops and let the people from Balochistan and Swat decide about their future if they want to be in Pakistan?

Posted by Nikhil | Report as abusive

It’s high time that Kashmiris stop allowing themselves from being played as a pawn in Pakistan’s slimy game. If anything, they need to look at the plight of the Pashtoons & the Balochis & realize that the Pakistani Punjabi establishment doesn’t really give a damn about them, all it cares about is it’s veil designs & self interests. Why any Kashmiri in his/her right mind would want to abandon an upcoming economic power like India & join a failed & lawless terror haven like Pakistan, is beyond any rationale. Most Kashmiris are sensible enough to realize that siding with a democratic India is the best option for them & they have proved it by participating in the last elections. To the remaining minority, I’d like to say that you’re being an obstacle to the progress of your state & your people. Whatever grievances you might have with the Indian Govt. can be worked out in a peaceful democratic manner.

Today, with India’s economic development, Indians have one of the highest disposable incomes of any nation in the world. With this income, they vacation in Switzerland, Madrid & Venice when they should be spending that money in Srinagar, Gulmarg & Pehelgam. Kashmir can be the #1 preferred vacation destination for 1.2 billion Indians but sadly it isn’t. At a time when the whole world is trying to find ways to take advantage of the Indian market, unfortunately, Kashmir although being a part of India isn’t able to do so. So, who’s losing here & who’s winning? Just think about it!

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive

Two rapes and two verdicts:
Shopian Case: Indian Kashmir
1. Two women were raped and murdered by unknown criminals
2. Four Police officers (including district police SP) are suspended and jailed for improper handing of evidence.
3. Police officers continue to live in jail and denied bail.
4. Case handed over to CBI (SIT) and Judicial probe ordered under supervision of a high court judge.
5. SIT announced a Rs. 20-lakh award to anyone providing a clue.
6. No evidence points to police officers, but they continue to live in jail and lost jobs.
http://www.kashmirwatch.com/showhumanrig hts.php?subaction=showfull&id=1252280706 &archive=&start_from=&ucat=2&var0news=va lue0news

Sui Case: Balochistan, Pakistan
1. A lady doctor (Dr. Shazia Khalid) was raped by a serving Pakistan army officer (Captain Hamad).
2. Army cover up begins. Rape victim and her family get death threats and jail threats.
3. Pakistani president calls her a fortune seeker, million-dollar seeker, Canadian visa seeker, a loose woman, a prostitute,
4. President of Pakistan, announced that the chief suspect, Captain Hamad, was 100 per cent innocent.
5. When Dr. Sazia fails in suicide attempts, Pakistani Govt. ordered her to leave the country for her own safety. Else Army will kill her!
6. Perpetrator are protected by the government and got promoted in job
7. Victim was deported (abandoned) to UK and later she managed to emigrate to Canada and she can’t go back to Pakistan to meet her family.
8. According to the Governor of Baluchistan, Owais Ahmed Ghani, there was no rape
9. President Musharraf: “This has become a money making concern. A lot of people say if you want to go abroad and get a visa for Canada or citizenship and be a millionaire, get yourself raped”
10. Sahid Buguti, a local leader who demanded justice from Pakistan Govt, got killed by aerial bombardment from Musharraf.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/pakist an/mckenna_pakistan-pt2.html

Posted by Samina | Report as abusive

It is better for this region to be split up into small states starting with Balochistan, Pashtunistan, Sindhu Desh, Baltistan, Azad Kashmir or a combined Kashmir, and the rest of the Afghan state split up along ethnic lines. Religion definitely has not shown any binding between these people. Their ethnic roots are a lot deeper. Islam has only united them against non-Muslims and has proven to be a dangerous thing for the whole world. I am sure these people will be better off being separate in order to progress any further. The real Af-Pak solution must be to split these two countries into smaller states for everyone’s peace of mind. It will also pave way for the dismantling of the nuclear weapons from this loose entity called Pakistan which has been kept tied together by its military all these years. These people have proved to themselves and everyone beyond doubt that they cannot manage themselves as a federation. So cut them up. Peace will return and terrorism will end. Or at least it will turn inwards and they can keep stabbing each other, leaving the rest of the world alone.

Alice or Fima or whatever your name is… I just made a legitimate point which is supported by proven historical facts. Not only Kashmir but Pakistan, Bangladesh, Afghanistan all are part of India. India ceded these territories and recognizes them as seperate nations is a different matter. But that does not take away the fact that these were not territories of India and the current settlers in these territories are not native Indians. And yes any Indian, (including a person like me, from low backward caste) is better, courteous, more mannerful than people like you. Indians have something more… Full freedom of thinking, beliefs, practice of beliefs which are peaceful and harmonious in building a good society. We are not slave to some book craps and we do not breed faith based terrorits organizations like SIMI, LeT, Taliban, Lashkar e Taiiba, Jaish e Muhammed, etc.

Posted by Rohit | Report as abusive

Bilal Butt your so not a Kashmiri and its sooo obvious!!

Posted by Madhu | Report as abusive

Why would Kashmir want to be part of Pakistan? Have they been keeping up to date with the news? Pakistan is almost about to have a civil war with it’s own religion.

At least with India, they have democracy and possible prosperity. At least, when the muslim minority is not attempting to cause armed confrontation.

Aside from that, what can Kashmir do? It doesn’t have enough support in it’s own people for a general uprising.

And if Pakistan was willing to fight a war over Kashmir, it would last mere days before nuclear threat ends the battle via truce. And Pakistan has a bad record with short wars. Even when starting conflict against India, it can’t even make minor territory gains.

Posted by Anon | Report as abusive

Myra:
It has come up several times and I always think it is Shaksgam valley given by Pak to China, not Aksai Chin. Can you comment?
you said: @Nikhil – a small point on Pakistan ceding land to China since it comes up a lot. The 1963 agreement ceding the Shaksgam Valley clearly says that it is pending a final settlement of the Kashmir dispute.
-Myra: Nikhil’s points stands since Pakistan did give Shaksgam valley give AS A GIFT to China without “asking the people of J&K or without talking to the UN.” This act brought in a 3rd country into the equation. Saying “pending a final settlement of the Kashmir dispute.” does nothing and even if mentioned this, UN is not a signatory to the deal and with or without that statement, it would still stand as a disputed deal. So the issue is gifting Kashmir–the disputed territory–to China with no permission from any one. The area of Shaksgam valley is 4853 sq km. Did any Kashmiri or from Northern Areas in Pakistan protest? Compare it with the protests by Indian Kashmiris that happened when Govt of India wanted to transfer of only 0.4SqKm of Land in Kashmir from J&K State to Amarnath temple Shrine Board for Amarnath temple pligrimage purpose. People protest only where they can—like in India and other places–like in Pakistan– they stay inside for the fear of bullet.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Akhtar Babajan whatever you say about Pakistan at least they did not suppress their own like the Sikhs, butcher the Gujaratis and any other minority in India.

Currently Indian occupied Kashmir’s water is being drained and used to light up India and Indian industries.

Us Pakistanis are housing over 1200000 refugees from Indian occupied Kashmir who have fled the terror of India, go and check out the refugee camps in AK. These people obviously fled and got the safety they wanted.

Soman the UN just confirmed 80000 mass graves in Indian Occupied Kashmir so why do you not read some reports and relieve your ignorance!!

Some of you Indians are obviously fed on NDTV hysteria diets and conspiracy stories.

I am a Pakistani and very proud we have got far in the years of our independence considering we were shortchanged of our treasures and may things by you and if it wasn’t for us you would still be fanning the British as their chai walas .

We are co-operating to get the terrorist which were brought and bred on our soil to fight Russia and we helped make the subcontinent safe.

If we are going around with what you call a begging ball at least we are not exploiting children and prostituting our women in the name of commerce. You have no respect for your own how can you respect another!

Posted by A Hamid | Report as abusive

India has a crystal clear choice to make, resolve the (Kashmir) dispute(s) with Pakistan and look forward towards a future. Pakistan came into being on 14 August 1947, Pakistan became a nuclear power on 27 May 1998 to ensure its national security. Unless India realizes it has outstanding disputes with Pakistan, there will be no normalization of relations.
I can still sense a minority in India that does not swallow the idea of Pakistan. That kind of attitude is a killer for peaceful relations.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

India Is Hiring: Job Outlook Best Among 35 Nations
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB12524088 3775292123.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Posted by patrick | Report as abusive

Umair, Hamid, Alice, Fima:
Can you explain to me in short (please be specific and logical):

1. Why Pakistan needs Kashmir? Do you have any legal documents?
2. If Pakistan has no documents, why is it sitting on the PoK?
3. Why did Pakistan sign the Shimla agreement and then repeatedly violate it?
4. Why did you cede areas of Kashmir to China?
5. If Pakistan is so much worried about Kashmiris, why not similar care for Mohajirs, Sindhis, Baluchis or East Pakistanis?
6. Why Pakistan is not accepting dead bodies of it’s citizens from Mumbai attacks? If these are not Pakistanis, then why is did Pakistan arrest 6 people in Pakistan?

Posted by Soman | Report as abusive

THANK YOU S.WANI YOU ARE A TRUE KASHMIRI MY BROTHER.
DONT GIVE UP YOUR STRUGGLE AND LET INDIA SILENCE YOU LIKE
US SIKHS. KHALISTAN WILL BECOME A REALITY TOO

Posted by G Singh | Report as abusive

A Hamid:

Just your name reminded me an Indian–Havildar Abdul Hamid, my childhood hero for the reason that he destroyed 7 Pakistanis M48Paton Tanks in the Khemkaran sector in Sept1965 Indo/pak war–exactly 44Yrs ago-the war that you have been WRONGLY taught that India started and pakistan won! Havildar Abdul Hamid gave life for India and was posthumously honored with Param Vir Chakra, India’s highest military decoration. This is one good thing I could write after reading your post if I quote you:
@If we are going around with what you call a begging ball at least we are not exploiting children and prostituting our women in the name of commerce. You have no respect for your own how can you respect another!”
- Posted by A Hamid

A Hamid: Is that your answer to the Pakistan’s begging bowl fact that you just acknowledged about. Stop this “atleast we got….” attitude since you cannot claim so. Research bit more. Check about Heera Mandi and child prostitution in pakistan. I will not say much further. Wise up!

@Akhtar Babajan whatever you say about Pakistan at least they did not suppress their own like the Sikhs, butcher the Gujaratis and any other minority in India.
—About India, I agree bad things happened but people are back on normal track–Sikhs are just fine and ruling India (for 10yrs till next election), Muslims hate Pakistani intervention for the simple reason that those who went to pakistan are tagged as Muhajirs and other minorities are just fine in India. Now I have talked about India, would you like to comment on killing 2.5million of YOUR OWN MUSLIMS+HINDUS in the then E. Pakistan for the simple question they asked that they have the right to rule Pakistan since they got more votes. That was the first time Pakistan had relatively genuine democratic process working. I am ready to listen to your India-Jew-USA conspiracy their also.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

I think Indians need to start reading their own authors
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug  /22/kashmir.india

Posted by bilal | Report as abusive

7. Why is Pakistan hiding Bangladeshi war criminals? And other UN / Interpol declared terrorists? How these terrorists help Pakistan?

Posted by Soman | Report as abusive

@I can still sense a minority in India that does not swallow the idea of Pakistan. That kind of attitude is a killer for peaceful relations.
- Posted by Umair

-Why do you worry that some in India do not swallow the idea of Pakistan? Now some in Pakistan want to see Islam rule over India, I can just laugh at that. Do not worry too much about that. I/We do accept Pakistan as a separate country and we thank Congress leaders–Patel and Nehru for facilitating the process of creation of pakistan, if they really did. My only personal problem is with the partition not with 1 or 2 Pakistan emerging out of the process—that half million were dead and 12 million refugees, but you know nothing of this since you stayed safe inside Pakistan Punjab. But in anycase, do you after Jaswant Singh revelation respect Patel and Nehru–who gave you the Pakistan that you are so proud of. Pakistanis should have their portraits now in addition to Jinnah’s.

kashmir issue must be solved–that’s right and that’s all I can say. Rest is the familiar rhetoric.
Would you comment on why Pakistan gifted Shaksgam valley
to China without asking kashmiris, why ISI is churning out Jihadi toys against Kashmiri wishes–200,000 made already, why not roll back terror Industry by all its ever mutating names.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

8. Muslims in Xinjiang, Urumi are not muslim enough for Pakistan? Pakistan is the only country encouraging China to kill these people.

Posted by Soman | Report as abusive

@Akhtar Babajan whatever you say about Pakistan at least they did not suppress their own like the Sikhs, butcher the Gujaratis and any other minority in India.
-posted by A Hamid

-Are Balochis not Pakistan’s own? Akhtar Babajan is a Balochi and is complaining about Pakistan’s tyranny against Balochis.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

India has a crystal clear choice to make, resolve the (Kashmir) dispute(s) with Pakistan and look forward towards a future.
–Umair

Thank you about your ‘crystal clear choice’ for India.

Is there any such crystal clear choice available to Pakistan to stop drones from openly violating its ‘sovereignty’?
Is there any crystal clear choice available to avoid going around the world with a crystal clear empty bowl?

Don’t you think it would do more help to Pakistan if you spend time in thinking about choices for Pakistan rather than India?

Umair, go get some fresh air.

Posted by Sunny | Report as abusive

Hindus protest as nurse goes missing

Staff Report

KARACHI: Dozens of people from the Hindu Maheshwari community gathered outside the Karachi Press Club on Tuesday to demand the safe return of Bano, a young Hindu nurse working at a private hospital, who went missing three weeks ago.

Carrying placards and banners, the protestors feared that Bano might be killed or forced to convert her religion. The elders of the community, Rajo, Narain and others, told the media that Bano had a row with the owner of the hospital where she worked before she went missing.

“Though the police have registered a case, nothing has been done for her return so far,” the protestors said.

The protestors demanded the federal and provincial government, law enforcement agencies and civil society organizations to ensure the safe release and return of Bano.

Kidnapping and forced conversion of Hindu women is not a new phenomenon in Sindh as several such cases have occurred throughout the province in the past.

Home | Karachi

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp  ?page=200999\story_9-9-2009_pg12_9

The above piece is from todays PAK Daily, folks

Bilal Butt your so not a Kashmiri and its sooo obvious!!
- Posted by Madhu

Oh really? And you are a Pakistani that goes by the name ‘Madhu’? Yeah right!
Don’t question the identity of other individuals on the blog just because they don’t agree with you. Disguising their names or masquerading as someone else is what pakistanis do on this blog. Am I right, ‘Madhu’?

Posted by brewer | Report as abusive

A. Hamid,

You said: “Whatever you say about Pakistan at least they did not suppress their own like the Sikhs, butcher the Gujaratis and any other minority in India”.

- Should Indians take lessons from Pakistan about how they treat Pashtuns in Karachi or the Christians in Gojra or the Balochis in Baluchistan? Treatment of minorities in India needs to improve, but it is hundred times better than the treatment meted out by Pakistan to its minorities.

You said: “Pakistanis are housing over 1200000 refugees from Indian occupied Kashmir who have fled the terror of India, go and check out the refugee camps in AK”

- Gee, wonder why do Kashmiris denounce Pakistan despite the accomodation? May be Pakistan has held the Kashmiris in terror camps as make-shift housing arrangement. Many Kashmiris who fled in early 1990′s to Pak occupied Kashmir have become disillusioned. They’ve learnt Pakistan does not care for the Kashmiris and it’s in it for itself.

You said: “Currently Indian occupied Kashmir’s water is being drained and used to light up India and Indian industries”

- That’s a lie. J&K imports, not export, power from neighboring Indian states because of shortfall in electricity. Pakistan also plays its part in keeping poor Kashmiris in dark; remember Pakistani charade in Baglihar dam on river Chenab which was meant to light up homes of the Kashmiris?

You said, “the UN just confirmed 80000 mass graves in Indian Occupied Kashmir so why do you not read some reports and relieve your ignorance”

- Indians do not exonerate the violent acts. The perpetrators are immediately jailed or forced to resign. Pakistan has lost its right to complain. The UN and the journos like Myra do not venture in Balochistan because Pakistan hides its violent acts under a tight lid. I’m sure the UN will find many more dead graves because Pakistan uses helicopter gunships and fighter jets to subdue the freedom fighters in Baluchistan.

You said: “if it wasn’t for us you would still be fanning the British as their chai walas”

- It’s irrelevant to the discussion but ironic what you wrote. The Muslim League piggybacked on the success of the Indian National Congress in the freedom struggle. Had it not for the mass movement of the Indian Congress you’d be still serving chai to Madam Sally in Lahore. Not much has changed for Pakistanis though. Pakistani leaders call England their home when they are exile. Even the Pakistani national cricket team is considering to relocate to their real motherland; the UK.

You said: “We are co-operating to get the terrorist which were brought and bred on our soil to fight Russia and we helped make the subcontinent safe”.

- Not really. The sub-continent has become miserable as a result of the fanatics that Pakistan help breed in return for US dollars, F-16′s and stingers. When the godfather – the US – threatens to bomb Pakistan back to stone age there is no option but to co-operate, isn’t it?

Posted by Nikhil | Report as abusive

“THANK YOU S.WANI YOU ARE A TRUE KASHMIRI MY BROTHER.
DONT GIVE UP YOUR STRUGGLE AND LET INDIA SILENCE YOU LIKE
US SIKHS. KHALISTAN WILL BECOME A REALITY TOO”
- Posted by G Singh

LMAO! Another fake Pakistani impostor, masquerading as a Sikh in retaliation of comments by the Balochis & Kasmiris against Pakistan. ‘Mr. G. Singh’, despite the nefarious designs of you Pakistanis, you will never be able to break India. There ever be a Khalistan because Sikhs are proud Indians & happy to be a part of a prosperous, secular & democratic India. Instead of trying to dismember India, it would be better if you Pakistanis redirect your collective energies towards avoiding the inevitable fragmentation of your country. And this is coming to you from an actual sikh, not a fake one!

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive

A senior Pakistan diplomat told the Guardian that his country was being treated as a “whipping boy” by Britain

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/sep  /08/pakistan-top-diplomat-terrorism-cla im

Posted by Ramon | Report as abusive

Zardari selling Kashmir secretly to Chinese and enriching his friends!

Zardari’s secret $2.2 bn Pakistan Steel deal with China without bids

“Most shocking element of this MoU, available with this correspondent, which will bind Pakistan with an additional foreign loan of $2.2 billion, is a clause that requires complete secrecy of this understanding”

“a businessman close to Zardari would be a major beneficiary of this expansion project”

“A day after the publication of the News report, angry Gilani announced in the national assembly that Moin Aftab Shaikh, the chairman of the Pakistan Steel Mills, had been sacked on corruption charges”

“Zarari has so far made four such visits to China in the last one year. These frequent visits to meet Chinese investors and businessmen have given rise to allegations that he was going there to promote the business interests of his friends in Pakistan”

http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_deta il.asp?Id=23922

http://news.rediff.com/column/2009/aug/2 8/raman-chinas-growing-role-in-pakistan- occupied-kashmir.htm

Posted by Patrick | Report as abusive

DON’T LET INDIA SILENCE YOU LIKE US SIKHS. KHALISTAN WILL BECOME A REALITY TOO
- Posted by G Singh

Khalistan dreams died because it was neither genuine nor people inspired struggle. Few mercenaries got money and guns from Pakistan and started killing others. When Pakistan shifted focus to Kashmir, money and gun supply dried and so did the Khalistan dreams. Just too many sikhs and innocents died for no reason. What did anybody achieve?

Pakistan tried the same thing in Kashmir. But Kashmiris are getting smarter. Kashmiris have moved away from rented guns and are negotiating a better deal secretly with Indian Govt, as we speak.

Posted by Mamy Singh | Report as abusive

“THANK YOU S.WANI YOU ARE A TRUE KASHMIRI MY BROTHER.
DONT GIVE UP YOUR STRUGGLE AND LET INDIA SILENCE YOU LIKE
US SIKHS. KHALISTAN WILL BECOME A REALITY TOO”

- Posted by G Singh

Mr Singh, from whom do you want Independence, and do you believe Khalistan can survive of its own.

Though I know your name might be Ghaazi or Gulfam and you are pretending to be a Sikh

Posted by singh | Report as abusive

Funny how few of you Indians have failed to read Roys article on Kashmir, maybe you think this is also an ISI ploy.

This article is from the heart of Kashmir so here it is again
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug  /22/kashmir.india

Posted by Bilal | Report as abusive

Some important and pertinent questions have been raised. Got stuck in reading recent comments and going by attitudes here there seems little hope of any reconciliation. Fortunately I am sure that this is not a true reflection of what people on both sides want.

My own personal opinion is that though back channel diplomacy is important, we have been hearing for a long time now about how an understanding or some sort of solution was almost ready with Musharaff. Personally I think it is about time the people were taken into some confidence and there was an open debate on the proposals. In the absence of knowing what was proposed and on the table, a meaningful debate on the issue on a platform such as this one will be difficult. Unfortunately that seems unlikely to happen as then it would hardly be back channel diplomacy.

The one thing that is certain is that should there be another 26/11 sort of attack, public opinion in India will almost certainly tend towards taking on Pakistan head on. As it is with the kind of public pronouncements being made by the Pak Interior Minister on the Indian dossiers, people are just about fed up of waiting for any meaningful response from the Pakistani establishment.

Kashmiris oppose Pakistan’s Northern Areas package

“It looks like they are integrating these areas into Pakistan”

http://www.reuters.com/article/GCA-Afgha nistan-Pakistan/idUSTRE57U2TJ20090831

Posted by Patrick | Report as abusive

Pak’s double-game’ helped bin-Laden escape allied forces: Times
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/wo rld/us_and_americas/article6826717.ece

Ex-premier Sharif ‘met with Osama five times’
http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=105 707&sectionid=351020401

Osama introduced Nawaz Sharif to Saudi royals: ex-ISI chief
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp  ?page=200998\story_8-9-2009_pg7_13

Posted by Soman | Report as abusive

Bilal:
@Funny how few of you Indians have failed to read Roys article on Kashmir, maybe you think this is also an ISI ploy.
- Posted by Bilal

-I personally do not care if it is ISI ploy or not plus you gave the link, right? So let us talk about the article.

Thanks. I have read her articles and know where she stands on the issue. In one line Roy’s simplistic attitude can console a kashmiri but she is of no help to the overall cause since she is emotional fool (or pretends to be one) of no concrete value.
Other Indians like MJ Akbar & Salman Rushdie and many others try to take 360degree view than looking at one side. Roy says Kashmiris are suffering at the hand of the Indian Army and they need to be given Kashmir according their choice—I agree since but that’s what happens in terrorism situation and I have seen that first hand. But why she is selectively passionate about the Kashmiris of today-now mostly Muslims, while barely touching the Kashmiri Pundit cause–leaving that just an open question. Giving a discourse is one thing but that does nothing for the solution. Her overall views are kind of like: Kashmiris suffer at the hand if Indian Army who are Hitlers, Mumbai attack happened because of injustices against Kashmiris/Muslims in India, so India need to give justice to Kashmiris and free them. BS.

It is important for Kashmiris (in India) to understand that all Indians, kashmiris in the Kashmir valley, kashmiris Pundits outside the Kashmir valley, the safety and security of non-Kashmiris Indians is at stake when we talk about K-issue. All have to feel safe and secure with the solution. From my non-Kashmiri Indian POV, terror will continue since Pakistan which initiates it is in no mood to roll back the terror machinery–see developments since 26/11. As and when that happens will be the beginning of the real solution of the Kashmiri issue.

But this is not to deny that kashmiris are stuck. Yes they are—more they think they are more they will be. Alternatives are not rosy for all I see and hear from people in the valley–common man to experts.

Salman Rushdie blasted Roy’s comments that Mumbai terror attack is due to the injustice against Kashmiris/Muslims. How hard it is to understand that terrorism will happen when Pakistan ISI wants—nothing to do with injustice again anyone.
A Kashmiri and I (non-kashmiri) need to ask the same question: Will terrorism stop once let us say Kashmir is free? Analysts feel NO and I agree with them. Rushdie also says that “Islamic terrorist project” will not shut down even after this solution. Who runs it? Pakistan. So Kashmiris and I need to ask of Pakistan to shut it down. If that does not happen, simplistic Roy can keep on crying and asking for the moon on the behalf of Kashmiris. She is shedding tears of no use. It is the duty of Kashmiris to OPENLY oppose terrorism for their own sake.

Solution is simple: All Kashmiris protest against Pakistan-based terrorism, everyday, put pressure on them, India/international community will support that, Pakistan will have to show something real concrete to dismantle their Jihadi toys. I mean Kashmiri must link Kashmir issue with terrorism if they want real solution otherwise crying becomes a habit and one gets used to it.
Read Rushdie interview:
http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx  ?239268

Quote Rushdie “Speaking of the roots (OF MUMBAI ATTACKS), I think one of the, I THINK ONE OF THE MOST WORRYING DEVELOPMENTS IN THE AFTERMATH OF THE ATTACKS, HAS BEEN THE WILLINGNESS OF A NUMBER OF COMMENTATORS, PARTICULARLY ON THE LEFT, TO PLACE THE QUESTION OF ROOTS IN THE CONCEPT OF JUSTICE.
People have said that the reason for these attacks was that there is injustice, that Indian Muslims are economically disadvantaged in India, that they have much lower educational qualifications, they have much higher unemployment rates and then of course there is the great injustice of Kashmir. As the argument be that while those injustices exist that is the thing from which these actions spring.
And as our colleague Arundhati Roy wrote the other night, as she ended her article, she said: You have a very simple choice: Justice or civil war — and you choose. ….. that is the entire spectrum of possibility from A to B.
[Laughs]
I want to really take issue with this. Because I mean, I think, anyone who knows what I have written in my life knows that I am quite seriously concerned with the condition of Kashmir. And I think that Indian authorities are culpable in the way in which they have treated the ordinary people of Kashmir but so are Jaish-e-Mohammad and Lashkar-e-Toiba.
And you have the people of Kashmir caught between a rock and a hard place. You know, you have a kind of fanatic Islam arriving from Pakistan which is not in keeping with the sufistic Islam that is traditional in Kashmir. So you have this Arabised Islam being forced upon people on the one hand, at the point of a gun, and on the other hand you have Indian security forces treating all Kashmiris as if they are terrorists, and often very brutally. So that’s there.
BUT THE POINT I WANT TO MAKE IS THAT I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT THE TERRORISTS SUCH AS THESE — I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT THEIR PROJECT HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH JUSTICE.
ASK YOURSELF THE QUESTION THAT IF THE KASHMIR PROBLEM WERE RESOLVE TOMORROW, IF ISRAEL-PALESTINE REACHED A LASTING PEACE, DO WE BELIEVE THAT AL-QAEDA WOULD DISBAND? DO WE BELIEVE THAT LASHKAR-E-TOIBA AND JAISH-E-MOHAMMAD WOULD PUT THEIR GUNS DOWN AND BEAT THEM INTO PLOUGH-SHEARS AND SAY WE WOULD NOW BE FARMERS BECAUSE OUR JOB IS DONE.
I MEAN THE POINT ABOUT IS THAT IS LAUGHABLE, RIGHT? AND THE POINT ABOUT THAT IS THAT THAT IS NOT THEIR PROJECT. THEIR PROJECT IS POWER. THIS IS A POWER GRAB BY THE MOST OBSCURANTIST, REVANCHIST, OLD-FASHIONED, MEDIEVALIST IDEA OF MODERN CULTURE THAT ATTEMPTS TO DRAG THE WORLD BACK INTO THE MIDDLE AGES AT THE POINT OF MODERN WEAPONRY … “ Unquote Rushdie
Read MJ Akbar does not have any different views.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Any Pakistani whoever needs Kashmir:

Please answer my 8 questions. Be specific, logical and substantive.

Posted by Soman | Report as abusive

Dara does your or Delhis compostite dialogue be include the
Kashmiris and thier leaders or will they be detained again?

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updat es/news/one-killed-150-injured-protests- continue-jammu-kashmir-20090610

Posted by T Shan | Report as abusive

Dara, thanks for bringing the discussion back to topic.

You wrote, “In the absence of knowing what was proposed and on the table, a meaningful debate on the issue on a platform such as this one will be difficult.”

I’m confident of what I said in my story – that the roadmap peace agreement sketched out between Musharraf and Manmohan Singh involved no exchange of territory, but aimed to make borders irrelevant. There was also supposed to be a “joint mechanism” to oversee issues of interest to both sides, but the exact details of this had yet to be worked out.

The logical consequence of this roadmap (and this bit I am still researching) is that Gilgit and Baltistan would eventually be integrated into Pakistan; Ladakh and Jammu would remain with India; leaving the Kashmir Valley and Azad Kashmir as the main area for discussion.

Although that roadmap leaves lots of room for argument, it does represent a step forward if you consider it in the context of the last 60 years, in which both India and Pakistan — at least in public — have maintained positions which applied to the whole of the former princely state of Jammu and Kashmir.

So perhaps the public debate needs to start first of all by asking people whether they are ready to take Gilgit and Baltistan, and Jammu and Ladakh out of the equation?

You also said:

“The one thing that is certain is that should there be another 26/11 sort of attack, public opinion in India will almost certainly tend towards taking on Pakistan head on.”

My question would be what would India do? Manmohan Singh has said that war is not an option; coercive diplomacy has been tried in 2001/2002; and selective strikes to target individuals or small groups work only if you have human intelligence on the ground.

So let’s assume for the purposes of discussion that India does nothing. At the same time, however, foreign investors would expect India to retaliate and as a result Indian inward investment and markets would suffer. That’s not a good position to be in, and my reading of what Manmohan Singh has been trying to do is at least partly motivated by trying to get India out of that position (his primary interest is, and always has been, the economy.)

Finally, a question on public opinion. I’ve been reading all the newspaper reports about the upcoming state elections in Maharashtra and I can’t find a single mention of Pakistan. The issues all seem to be about drought, farmers’ suicides, rising food prices and political in-fighting between the Congress-NCP on one side and the BJP-Shiv Sena on the other. So what do you mean when you talk about public opinion? The view of the English-language media, or the electorate?

Myra

Posted by Myra MacDonald | Report as abusive

Musharraf is getting kicked out of London!

“Perhaps recognising that a prolonged stay in London could be problematic, government officials do not want Musharraf to remain for long”

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/sep  /09/pakistan-pervez-musharraf-exile-lon don

Posted by Andy | Report as abusive

Reading all opinions posted here shows how much we are stuck with rhetoric. Majority of Indian friends are continued to side track proving that state of Pakistan is a mess, the people of Pakistan are immoral, heinous and aggressive they have no right to even point Kashmir issue. This is what Indian establishment been doing for long, the do more rhetoric and not getting to the table to solve the real issues. The issue is not here whether Pakistan is a corrupt, failed or dysfunctional state, or India has no Hindu fundamentalist problem, or hegemonistic designs. The issue here is whether there is a problem and should India attempt to resolve it. Well, some may say there is no problem; more than six hundred thousand Indian soldiers are just having vacations in Kashmir. But still qualifies as rhetoric too. If there is no problem, why then all this fuss about blaming Pakistan for something nonexistent.

We all know there is a problem, the causes of which are perceived differently, however it needs to be resolved proactively. Both Indian and Pakistani sides understand well it can not be resolved militarily. To persuade the other side one has to sit down. The most common methods of persuasion are the rhetoric and dialectics. Rhetoric in its modern form is simply sticking to ones opinion and constantly using it to define the problem. India had been doing this for years and it isn’t working. The dialectics (a form of dialogue) involves difference of opinion to argue about the problem. It requires an open mind. Only dialogue provides the possibility to convince or of being convinced by the opposition not rhetoric. Those who feel their argument does not have material avoid dialogue in fear of being convinced. To eliminate differences one needs to be courageous enough to face the opponent and find a mutually acceptable ground.

Pakistanis are well aware that the Kashmir issue has given rise to militancy, which in turn have become host of terrorism. But the source of this militancy lies in Kashmir issue. Sticking to rhetoric implies only to avoid resolution which will prolong the problem to next decade and threaten not just Pakistan’s existence but the stability of India as well. The militancy in Pakistan-Afghan border speaks for itself, with all the resources and might of the west it is going on its own. It may consume Pakistan, but then what, will it leave India alone. If people who are playing the blame game and sticking to rhetoric think it will disappear by itself, sorry for them, they are only sticking their heads in the sand.

Posted by AAfromUSA | Report as abusive

Myra,
India has not taken any punitive action. India is not aggressive like China or Israel! India only pushed Pakistan diplomatically to arrest terrorists. India can take a lot of punitive actions that will make Pakistan bankrupt or a desert.

1. Trade and travel ban
2. Sports ban
3. Overhead flight bad
4. Cancel bilateral treaties including the water treaty
5. Set up a billion dollar fund for Baluchistan freedom
6. Actively blacklist countries and companies selling arms to Pakistan
7. Actively force FoDP or IMF to check Pakistan’s defense budget before giving any aid
8. Donate billions dollars of arms aid to Afghanistan.
9. Unilaterally declare Pakistan a terrorist country and harass, check all cargo ships coming in/out of Pakistan. India needs to buy some good BMD shield and cover Pakistan with an AWACS cap before going for this.

But Indian leaders are smarter. They know time kills terrorists. Why get dirty!

Posted by Sameer | Report as abusive

Myra, for the record, some of the rhetoric you are talking about is also bringing Khalistan into the picture.

Let me set the record straight on what mainstream Indian Sikh’s really think about Khalistan. I am Punjabi Hindu, but have lived along side and am friends with hundreds of Sikhs, I understand them, like they are my own family.

Almost all Sikhs are actually disenfranchised and feel cheated by the political thugs, that tried to hijack a good progressive and loving inclusive religion like Sikhism. Sikhism, on many levels is one of the best things that India has to offer, you are free to goto any Gurdwara and feed yourself and stay for free if you wish, regardless of your religion, afterall, God’s house is for all peoples, regardless of their religion, caste or creed.

The Sikh Community and especially the Diaspora, in the UK, Canada, the U.S. are extremely successful and progressive and have integrated well. I admire the Sikh community greatly and admire their strength and courage, especially the courage to have reason and sense. It is true that Indira Gandhi ordered a retaliation that spiralled out of control and the rest of India weeps and regrets that horrible week, where many innocent Sikhs were butchered. But let me be clear, it was Pakistan who fueled this dangerous separatism and mentored the leaders of the Khalistan movement to challenge the Indian Security establishment, head on. Lawlessness does have consequences, but things did go too far and thank God that the Indira Gandhi mindset and days are gone. The Sikh community has not forgotten and neither have the rest of us, but India has advanced greatly since those days in the 80′s and so has the Sikh community and today we see a Sikh man as the leader of India, what a turn of events, in such a small time, don’t you think?!? The very few Sikhs who preach Khalistan are extremists and even treated like marginalized fringe people in the peaceful Sikh community. Those preaching Khalistan advocate violence against innocents, they indulge in honour killings, they are a completely backwards, stagnant people by choice.

India is not complete without Sikhs, as they are a part of the larger Indian family and history has looked very kindly on the brave Sikhs, who defended Indian land against violent Islamic oppression. The Sikhs are our lions, our pride of India.

I ask our Pak friends to not mention Khalistan, or try posing as Sikhs in the blog, as that is such a small dream to aspire to, and actually insults in the intelligence and capabilities of Sikhs, when you can be much more than that, you can be global or Prime Minister of India.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

AAfromUSA:
If a habitual druggie in your neighborhood intrudes into your house in the night and kills your children. Next day the intruder claims that your wife belongs to him because he believes they were eternal partners in previous life! Druggie doesn’t want to accept your marriage certificate. And you get threatening calls everyday to give up your wife or intruder will again sneak in to your house in the night and kill more children.

What will you do:
1. Give up your wife and save the children? What if the druggie comes back a week later and demands your eldest daughter?
2. Sit down with the druggie and find a solution to the problem?
3. Or (if you are too passive, mild, soft and shy) try to stay from the druggie, hoping that druggie will die a natural death sooner or get run over by a car! This is the path Indian leaders have taken.

What’s your pick?

We all know there is problem between USA and UBL. Did USA sit down with UBL and find a common ground or resolve issues? Why not?

The problem is the unaccounted US aid! The nearly 300 billions of free US aid and weapons to Pakistan since 1950s. But in spite of all US aid, Pakistan is bankrupt and selling agricultural land, mines and rivers to buy weapons from China. Lets see what else they have got to sell and how far do they sustain!

The problem is not Kashmir. Kashmir was legally integrated into India. Yes, Kashmir king came running to India and wanted to be part of India and signed an accession treaty. Pakistan wanted Khalistan yesterday, Kashmir today, may be water tomorrow and Hyderabad day after tomorrow. Where is the end? Where is the law?

The problem is Pakistan’s mentality. After corruption and mismanagement from last 60 years and complete failure in all areas, blaming India is the only way out for Pakistan’s leaders. This is the only way to get votes. Pakistan’s leaders know if they try to solve internal problems, it will consume them. Problem is Pakistan’s army. It needs to invent problems to stay relevant and justify a thick budget. Everytime, there was peace talks, Army/ISI sabotaged it. At least 6 times, Army/ISI sent terrorists to India to sabotage the peace talks.

What will you talk with anybody, who hasn’t kept his last 10 promises! And only demands more in every talk but never fulfills his part! Is he a worthy partner to talk?

Hindu fundamentalist are not your punch bag! They are not going to other countries in the middle of night to kill citizen’s of other country. Hindu fundamentalist might be making a lot noise, but most of them have never seen a .202 rifle!

Posted by Sam | Report as abusive

Hey AAfromUSA,
Does US Govt sit down with terrorists, murderers or liars and negotiates with them?

Posted by Peter | Report as abusive

S. Wani it is not only the water of Kashmir that India is draining. I am a water resources expert in a well known
university. India has cut the delta upstream and started draining the water that ran into Bangladesh and was
vital to its function. Indias growing population and dependency on water means that it needs Kashmir.
Tensions are growing between India and Bangladesh too sadly for Bangladesh we have no nuclear facility so the world bank does not deem it worthy to intervene in this instance to draw up agreement as it has between the India/Pak.

Posted by C Cjee | Report as abusive

AAfromUSA:
Who do you talk to in Pakistan? Pakistan is like a 3 headed monster:

Head #1 (Politicians): This head always wants to talk and make noise but has no power to deliver anything. This head has a very short life-cycle. Always this head gets bitten by Head #2 and has to obey Head #2.

Head #2 (Army/ISI): This head is more secretive, mystic and has all power. This head only bites and never talks. Also any legitimate Govt can’t talk to this head. Any successful talk will make this head irrelevant. So this head always makes sure that talks fail, whichever head you talk to. This head is partially remote controlled from China and Saudi.

Head #3 (Mullahs/Militants): Part of this head is controlled by Head#2, Part by Saudis and rest on autonomous mode. This head only bites and never talks. Also any legitimate Govt can’t talk to this head. Any successful talk will make this head irrelevant. So this head always makes sure that talks fail, whichever head you talk to.

Do you realize India’s problems now? Not just India’s, this is world’s problem now. US, UK, Miliband, Holbrooke, Petreous, McChrystal, Mullen .. all are trying to talk to different heads .. but nobody has any clue what they have achieved.

My suggestion would be to decapitate Head #2 and #3 and then talk to Head #1 and demand results.

Posted by Nora | Report as abusive

T Shan:
NO dialogue!
We can’t talk while you keep holding a gun! You need to prove that you are honest and sincere.

First: Arrest the Mumbai terrorists,
Second: Prove that you are a worthy and reliable partner to talk to
Third: Dismantle all terrorist infrastructures and publicly renounce terrorism
Fourth: If we are convinced about your intentions, may be we’ll let you sit across the table.

But first things first! You need to act!

Posted by Andy | Report as abusive

Myra, Dara:

@My question would be what would India do? Manmohan Singh has said that war is not an option; coercive diplomacy has been tried in 2001/2002; and selective strikes to target individuals or small groups work only if you have human intelligence on the ground.

So let’s assume for the purposes of discussion that India does nothing. At the same time, however, foreign investors would expect India to retaliate and as a result Indian inward investment and markets would suffer. That’s not a good position to be in, and my reading of what Manmohan Singh has been trying to do is at least partly motivated by trying to get India out of that position (his primary interest is, and always has been, the economy.)
-Myra

–NO War but activate counter-terrorism wing of RAW. Real help to those who still want freedom from pakistan.

@Finally, a question on public opinion. I’ve been reading all the newspaper reports about the upcoming state elections in Maharashtra and I can’t find a single mention of Pakistan. The issues all seem to be about drought, farmers’ suicides, rising food prices and political in-fighting between the Congress-NCP on one side and the BJP-Shiv Sena on the other. So what do you mean when you talk about public opinion? The view of the English-language media, or the electorate?
-Myra

–Do you really think voters now will think about 26/11–war-Pakistan—what they have is the real issues in mind. Even last Loksabha elections, Mumbai turnout was low. So electorate already ruled out the war option at that time (i think). But this does not by any means indicate that if the attack happens in future, the whole 26/11 memories will not comeback. In future, the protests will not be just candle-light vigil and the pressure on govt will be huge. But this is all asummption and the real opinion emerge in real situations.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Dear C Cjee,
Do you belong to Jamat-e-Islami party? Because that is the only party opposing the dam. And this party opposed the liberation of Bangladesh, allied with Pakistan, started killing Bangladeshis and committing war crimes. Now this party and all it’s leaders are facing war crimes tribunal. So this party is making all kinds of noise against India and US to distract public opinion and to avoid prosecution.

Same logic like Pakistani politicians. Blame it on external factors, blame it on India or USA and hide your own failures!

Here are the links to reports from your all party Parliamentary team, which recently visited the dam site in India.

FORMER Water Resources Minister and currently Chairman of Parliamentary Standing Committee on Water Resources Mr. Abdur Razzak, upon his return home from leading a parliamentary delegation to India, said that his talks with the Indians have “convinced” him that Tipaimukh will not harm Bangladesh.
http://www.thedailystar.net/newDesign/ne ws-details.php?nid=101366

AFTER holding talks with Indian authorities about the pros and cons of the construction of Tipaimukh dam vis-à-vis Bangladesh, the Parliament’s water resources committee chairman Abdur Razzak told New Age that his team members were convinced that India would do nothing harmful for Bangladesh.
http://www.thedailystar.net/newDesign/ne ws-details.php?nid=102092

Tipaimukh Politics in Bangladesh
http://www.americanchronicle.com/article s/view/110788

They are aware that good achievement or success of the present government would push away the possibility of their win the future elections. So, it is natural that they would endeavour their best such that the present government cannot do anything praiseworthy
http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=441&c page=1

In future, can you please keep your Bangladeshi politics inside your country! War criminals must be punished, no matter how much noise they make or wherever they hide!

Posted by Sam | Report as abusive

Until Pakistan does not put all the terrorists on conveyer belts and push them through the roller and show India the proof that they really have been crushed, anything else is a non-issue.period

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Peter, America does not talk to terrorists???
But did it not gather, fund, and train them!!

Posted by T Williams | Report as abusive

Mumbai attacks were not caused by Kashmiris Andy,
infact even the international community did not believe your stories and it was a bodged up RAW excercise.
The Indians have a very convenient excuse, terrorrists.

Posted by T Shan | Report as abusive

Myra,

Questions, questions, questions! :)

Thanks for the inputs on the road map of the proposed agreement. I had no idea about what was proposed. My initial reaction to limiting the dialogue to the Kashmir valley is positive. Frankly I think there is no question of getting into any laboured discussion about reclaiming land and going back to original boundaries. Some lee way has to be there on both sides. Maybe the picture you paint here is a way out.

While Dr Manmohan Singh may say that war is not an option, I have different views. It is an option of the last resort and is certainly not one that should be simply ruled out. I am not a hawk, but I do believe that at times peace has to be fought for. However, short of war there is still a lot more that can be done; diplomatic, economic, cultural and social. Travel restrictions, cutting off trade relations, reducing diplomatic representation to the minimum and the like. It’s not an easy choice but may become inevitable. The next time there is a call for more evidence I think the short answer should be – if you can’t do anything with all that has been given so far then any more is simply a waste of our time and we have better things to do.

As regards the Maharashtra election, the fact is that this is not a general election but a state level one. The issues here are different and restricted to local issues. Foreign policy is a Central issue. The Mumbai wounds have not healed by a long shot. I have absolutely no doubt that if there be a next time, and if the Indian Government does not take harsher measures than what it has done now, it will be in real danger of being swept away by public anger.

Your last question is most difficult. I do not know whether my opinion is that of the electorate or that of the english media. All I do know is that it is my view and one reflected by my associates in general whenever we do discuss the issue amongst ourselves.

Posted by Dara | Report as abusive

Peter, America does not talk to terrorists???
But did it not gather, fund, and train them!!
- Posted by T Williams

NO! US hired Pakistan Army/ISI to do all that. Officially, US doesn’t negotiate with terrorists (except ISI)!

Surprisingly, guns and terrorists started showing up in Kashmir, when Pakistan started receiving CIA/Saudi funds for Afghanistan!

Posted by Peter | Report as abusive

Mumbai attacks were not caused by Kashmiris Andy,
infact even the international community did not believe your stories and it was a bodged up RAW excercise.
The Indians have a very convenient excuse, terrorrists.
- Posted by T Shan

Are you saying 26/11 didn’t happen? It wasn’t terrorism? Did I ever say Mumbai attacks were caused by Kashmiris? I have a feeling you are a Pakistani. Any sane person wouldn’t try to justify terrorism.

UN, Interpol, FBI, US, are actively looking for the terrorists and banned those persons/ Orgs. 12 countries have provided evidences and helped India prosecute the lone surviving Pakistani in Mumbai. After initially declining, Pakistan arrested and trying (faking) 8 Pakistanis in a secret court.

Which part doesn’t look international to you? Which part was a bodged up RAW exercise?

Agree with your point. Mumbai attacks were done by Pakistani terrorists! All evidences show that. Kashmiris are innocent and peace loving people. It is the Pakistanis, who do all terrorism and hide behind Kashmiris or muslim religion.

You also prove my point. Terrorists have no specific goal or purpose. Terrorism has nothing to do with Kashmir. It has to do with India’s security and world’s security. Pakistan must give up terrorism, arrest all leaders, destroy all terrorist infrastructures and prove that they are equal and worthy international partners. Only then somebody will accept them as serious partners.

It is Pakistan’s job and responsibility to keep their house clean! Why do they need so much convincincing, pushing, carrots and sticks to clean their house?

Posted by Andy | Report as abusive

Rajeev, you said:

“But this does not by any means indicate that if the attack happens in future, the whole 26/11 memories will not comeback. In future, the protests will not be just candle-light vigil and the pressure on govt will be huge. But this is all asummption and the real opinion emerge in real situations.”

–>Rajeev, if more Mumbai type incidents are inflicted on innocent Indians by state or non-state actors from Pakistan, to me, there is not much difference, they are one in the same, India may not still retaliate, but one difference will occur this time in the future.

The anger in Indian citizens will boil and erupt, if more Mumbai’s happen and it will in fact strengthen the Unity of Indians much further. There will be public outcry for justice and to address this in the next best way, short of war are, Billions more will be spent on upgrading the already superior Military complex of India and India will be able to garner much more security and military co-operation from the U.S., Israel, Russia and other European nations. To keep parity, Pakistan will keep using the Kashmir issue to distract the Pakistani public from the nefarious and illegal acts being committed by the Army to buy more weapons against India, it appears to be a never ending cycle, that is fueled by Pakistani establishment.

If Pakistani establishment wants to keep angering the Indian Public, there will be consequences down the road, that will eventually cause the Pakistani public to lose faith against the military and revolt against them, civil war in Pakistan, against the Punjabi’s in power there and the rich punjabi’s in gated communities will be unavoidable. There will be an uprising and a revolution, if you will and that will be destablilizing for the region.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

Myra,

It is hard for Indians to look beyond the rhetoric, what are we supposed to do? Keep our heads down, while innocent citizens get sprayed with bullets?

Below is a link showing that the LeT/JuD leader Hafiz Saeed, is being protected by Pakistani establishment. Indian Gov’t has sent numerous evidence, pointing the finger at Hafiz Saeed, yet Pakistani gov’t is unwilling to move on it, much to the dismay and disappointment of Indians and the world.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Pakistan-h as-vested-interest-in-protecting-Saeed-K rishna/H1-Article1-452266.aspx

It is quite established by now by India that Saeed was the mastermind behind the Mumbai plot. I am curious, to see, what Pakistani’s here think. Do you think Saeed should be arrested and jailed and stand trial and face punishment, or do you think that Saeed, the Mastermind of Mumbai should go free, after killing unarmed innocent Indian citizens?

I hope to get an answer. But I will not be surprised with a non-reply either. It is seldom hard to get Pakistani’s to admit mistake on anything, even 1971 Bengali Genocide. Please prove me wrong.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

Rajeev,

I feel the Mumbai turn out was a shame. However, being located close to Mumbai, I find that 26/11 is never far from peoples’ minds. The fact that Pakistan does not figure too heavily on the minds of the people is perhaps also because we have, fortunately, moved beyond Pakistan centric policies and thinking. But I still maintain that if there is a repeat, the government will be in real danger of a very serious backlash if it does not take a more positive posture.

Posted by Dara | Report as abusive

T Shan,

You have addressed a question to me earlier about a composite dialogue and including Kashmiri people in such a dialogue. Is this in relation to something I have written elsewhere, or is it wrongly directed at me? Could you please put the question into context as I am unsure about the background.

Posted by Dara | Report as abusive

Soman India has just about contained the conflict in its Punjab; having troubles in Nagaland and Gujarat;
Its having problems with Sri Lanka, China, Burma, Pakistan
further its having to steal water for its survival from left right and centre and Bangladesh
Please provide any info for what are its plan for Kashmir and what can it give it but take its resources, provide details.

Posted by F S Noman | Report as abusive

US supports India’s stand on conditions

“Ahead of a crucial meeting between Union Home Minister P Chidambaram and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, the Obama Administration came out in support of India’s stand on pre-conditions for talks with Pakistan. Pakistan must thoroughly investigate and punish perpetrators of 26/11. The progress is needed first to bring the Mumbai suspectsin to justice”
http://www.business-standard.com/india/n ews/us-supports-india\s-standconditions- for-talkspak/73063/on

Posted by Peter | Report as abusive

Calling all Pakistanis again (3rd time):

Please answer my 8 questions. Be logical, specific and substantive! I need to know what you need, why you need and show any evidence you got!

This is the least you need to do to get Kashmir, else you lose your right to raise K-word forever!

Myra, this applies to you as well!

Posted by Soman | Report as abusive

Musharraf will criticize warm India-US ties on a 40 day US lecture tour to improve Pakistan’s poor global image!

‘Pakistan is a most misunderstood country. I enjoy the opportunity to clear up misperceptions,’ he told The Guardian newspaper.

http://www.britainnews.net/story/541217

Posted by Peter | Report as abusive

For T shan:
All your links prove the same point: Pakistani terrorists killed innocents civilians and foreigners. All foreign Governments (except Pakistan’s) are co-operating with India to bring the criminals to justice. It is beyond doubt that the 26/11 Mumbai attack was 100% Made in Pakistan.

Agree with you. There were security failures and Indian Govt was unable to effectively protect innocent civilians and foreigners. That was India’s 9/11, but a lot of things have changed since then. Security is getting better everyday. India is partnering with US/UK to preempt Pakistani terrorists.

India is not a rented state. India doesn’t allow Israli’s do policing in India! I hope you live in a sovereign country and understand the issues!

Posted by Andy | Report as abusive

Pakistan’s Ex-President Musharraf creates trouble in London!

http://www.britainnews.net/story/541164

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk  /article6828528.ece

Posted by Andy | Report as abusive

Calling Soman again

Soman India has just about contained the conflict in its Punjab; having troubles in Nagaland and Gujarat;
Its having problems with Sri Lanka, China, Burma, Pakistan
further its having to steal water for its survival from left right and centre and Bangladesh

Please provide any info for what are its plan for Kashmir and what can it give it but take its resources, provide details and be logical, specific and substantive.

Posted by F S Noman | Report as abusive

Soman
I have one same answer for all your questions; none of your business.
India does what it does, Pakistan does what it does. Just go about your normal life and dont ask so many pointless questions. Do you think anything is going to change between India and Pakistan so quickly? I dont think so.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Please provide any info for what are its plan for Kashmir and what can it give it but take its resources, provide details.
- Posted by F S Noman

Kashmir is an Integral part of India and I don’t need to discuss that with you. It is an internal matter to India.

But definitely China and Zardari have some plans on Kashmir. Can you hold on to your land?
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/ KI11Df01.html

Posted by Ramin | Report as abusive

Soman India has just about contained the conflict in its Punjab; having troubles in Nagaland and Gujarat;
- Posted by F S Noman

Proof that your greed and ambitions go far beyond Khalistan or Kashmir. So tell me .. what do want to talk with INdia?

Bangladesh uncovers Pakistan’s role in Arming India’s North-East rebels
http://rethinkingislam-sultanshahin.blog spot.com/2009/07/bangladesh-uncovers-pak istans-role-in.html

Posted by Raj | Report as abusive

F S Noman says:
Please provide any info for what are its plan for Kashmir and what can it give it but take its resources, provide details.

What resources Kashmir has to provide? I know Kashmir consumes a lot of Indian resources. Kashmiris will make their own plan and destiny. India doesn’t make plans for people. India provides security and environment to prosper. Have you ever lived in a democracy?

Posted by Nora | Report as abusive

Nothing will change the way India & Indians view Pakistan until Pakistan proves it’s sincerity towards dismantling India-specific terror from it’s soil & so far Pakistan has done nothing to show that it is indeed sincere. It continues to aid & abet it’s blue-eyed boys i.e. Hafiz Sayeed, Dawood Inbrahim, Azhar Mehmood etc. & groups like LeT, JeM etc. while demanding that India come to the table. Indians have been back stabbed by Pakistan way too many times & for way too long, to trust it any more. Last year’s Mumbai attack was the incident that woke India up & made Indians realize that we they need to stop treating Pakistan with kid gloves & stop neglecting it’s sins & misgivings. If Pakistan wants good relations with India, it needs to prove first that it is not an enemy. All the back channel activity & talks on the sidelines of various summits won’t go anywhere until Pakistan takes concrete actions. India’s policy is simple: Show results first, we’ll talk later!

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive

@F S Noman
“India has just about contained the conflict in its Punjab; having troubles in Nagaland and Gujarat;”

Please substantiate with proof!

India resolved (Not Contained!) terrorism in Punjab almost 20 yrs back. You were on the verge of collapse just couple of months back. Still in ICU and living off on alms from the world.

“Its having problems with Sri Lanka, China, Burma, Pakistan
further its having to steal water for its survival from left right and centre and Bangladesh”

Again Plz substantiate with link of India’s problem with Burma and Sri lanka and that India is stealing water.

“Please provide any info for what are its plan for Kashmir and what can it give it but take its resources, provide details.”
As of now Kashmir draws electricity from National grid inspite of having huge hydroelectric potential. Credit for JnK’s backwardness goes to Pakistan.
Our plan on jnK is simple. End Pak sponsored terrorism. let JnK prosper and live in peace just like rest of India. Lastly set an example to POK on what they are missing :-)

Posted by chirkut | Report as abusive

Calling Soman again
Please provide any info for what are its plan for Kashmir and what can it give it but take its resources, provide details and be logical, specific and substantive.
- Posted by F S Noman

Nice try dude to divert attention. We are not discussing India’s relations with the world here! Please stay within the scope and context of the subject. We are discussing India, Pakistan, Kashmir and terrorism here. Can you try to answer my 8 specific questions?

My friends have answered some of your relevant questions above and I don’t need to repeat.

Posted by Soman | Report as abusive

Chinese Invade Pakistan!
Is it the beginning of Chinese takeover? British did the same in India 300 years back!

As westerners flee, Chinese workers land in droves in turbulent Pakistan
http://blog.taragana.com/n/as-westerners -flee-chinese-workers-land-in-droves-in- turbulent-pakistan-165792/

Posted by Peter | Report as abusive

Mortal says:
” If Pakistan wants good relations with India, it needs to prove first that it is not an enemy.”

-Is Pakistan going to be bankrupt, or implode or simply melt if relations with India continue to be bad. For last 62 years India-Pakistan relations are anything but good. Let it be, Pakistan is under no obligation to prove either an enemy or friend of India. Same goes for India, if you hint you want peaceful relations with Pakistan; all the better. Otherwise lets maintain status-quo, no need to make progress. After all India is still not all that modern forward looking nation anyways. Maybe you never want good relations with pakistan, we are also not dying for that.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Umair,
Your response proves that terrorists have no goals, no logic. Nothing can convince terrorist to give up! So what do you want to talk to India? That would be waste of time.

Posted by Ramin | Report as abusive

Yes Indian plans for Kashmir are another 60 years of suppression, military attrocities and humiliation

The reason you cant provide any details is because there are no concrete policies to develop Kashmir or a will to talk to the Kashmiri leadership.

I think you should read the your water agreement and see what is being tacken and what is being given to Kashmir.

Not only has the regions economy and life declined it is a pit of pollution and degradation.It is Indias greed and
pride that is keeping a people against its wishes and its a losing battle.

S

Posted by F S Noman | Report as abusive

Why are you Indians so jealous that Pakistan have a good relationship with China and that we are capable of standing up to you.

If you feel insecure and disliked by your neighboring countries its not are problem.

Posted by Bilal | Report as abusive

Pakistan wants peace with its neighbour however it always meddles in our internal affairs eg Balochistan & it also spreads strife in our country via Afghanistan.

If our southern neighbour interferes in our internal affairs, then of course our security services will hit back. It should leave Afghanistan & stop meddling in our internal affairs from there.

Only then will peace be possible…

I have one same answer for all your questions; none of your business.
- Posted by Umair

So you don’t know why you need Kashmir! You just need it! And we are supposed to give it to you without asking why! Do you think Kashmir is an apple or banana?

Posted by Soman | Report as abusive

Soman
I have one same answer for all your questions; none of your business.
India does what it does, Pakistan does what it does. Just go about your normal life and dont ask so many pointless questions. Do you think anything is going to change between India and Pakistan so quickly? I dont think so.
- Posted by Umair

That was quite opposite to what Soman was asking(logical,specific and substantive).
If you thought those were pointless question, why did you even care to say ‘none of your business’? Maybe you thought asking pointless questions was the birth right of Pakistanis only?

And moreover, if they were pointless questions Myra wouldn’t have allowed them to be published.

Weren’t people going about their normal lives till the Pakistanis sneaked into the country and wrecked havoc in mumbai?

You are right when you think nothing is going to change between India and Pakistan quickly. It takes time for an entire brainwashed generation of Pakistan,thanks to Zia,to start thinking like a normal human beings and value lives of other human beings.

Posted by Sunny | Report as abusive

Umair: Is Pakistan going to be bankrupt, or implode or simply melt if relations with India continue to be bad. For last 62 years India-Pakistan relations are anything but good. Let it be, Pakistan is under no obligation to prove either an enemy or friend of India. Same goes for India, if you hint you want peaceful relations with Pakistan; all the better. Otherwise lets maintain status-quo, no need to make progress. After all India is still not all that modern forward looking nation anyways. Maybe you never want good relations with pakistan, we are also not dying for that.

>>>

I am very sorry to break the news to you Mister but in case you have not bothered to inquire beyond your loudspeaker sources, your country is melting every day! Pakistan had gone bankrupt (and what not) long before if not for the UN funds. A country who has land for lease or sale is like clearly indicates its desperation. Its like a person who is ready to cut his limb so that he can eat that limb for food.

And btw, what kind of hints you want India to give that it wants to have peaceful relations with Pakistan? May be not probing the Mumbai attacks to their logical conclusion will be a good hint? Thats what your country is doing as a hint for wanting peaceful relations! Isn’t it?

Re: maintaining state quo, yes India was doing that before it decided to abduct few hundreds of Pakistani soldiers and station them on Kargil peaks and then claim them as Pakistani infiltration. And why not, who knows how many of 92000 POWs that surrendered in 1971 went back home. Quite a possibility. Or may be its misadventurism began when it sent forefathers of Ajmal Kasab in one of the poor village in Pakistan, make them suffer in extreme poverty and let the kid get all the militant training and kill 200 something civilans in Mumbai just because India could claim that that Pakistan is not maintaining status quo.
Grand designs of evil schemers who does not want to maintain status quo, eh?

As for being “under no obligation”, say this to Mr. Droneman and learn to strike stones for cooking food, if you could find any (food, stones will be plenty for sure).

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive

Why are you Indians so jealous that Pakistan have a good relationship with China and that we are capable of standing up to you.
- Posted by Bilal

There is a saying: “if two kittens fight, monkey gains”. The Chinese are playing monkey here. Already Chinese are one of the richest country and Pakistan is one of the poorest in the world. Chinese don’t have a good track record anywhere they go. Communists are a threat to the world.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/06/world/ middleeast/06iraqoil.html?_r=2&em

If you become too poor and jobless that becomes a concern to neighbors.
1. Too many Kasabs will try to sneak in to India
2. Too many sucide bombers will go to Afghanistan
3. Everyday your army will flash nukes to demand food aid like N. Korea.

Everybody including Jinnah wanted Pakistan to be strong and a leader. Not a slave to commis!

India is not going to attack you unless you keep sending terrorists. Did u gain anything from Mumbai terrorists? But you lost a lot! Don’t do such things and you will be safe.

Posted by Soman | Report as abusive

[...] friend Myra MacDonald is talking about a thaw in relations between India and Pakistan (and also here).  Myra follows Pakistan very closely and is well informed, but frankly I have grave doubts as to [...]

Pakistan wants peace with its neighbour however it always meddles in our internal affairs eg Balochistan ..
- Posted by Qasim

Dude, your Government was lying and misleading you. So drop this excuse!

After Sri Lankan cricket attacks also, your Govt blamed India, then blamed Mehsud, and now blaming LTTE. Don’t listen to your Govt., verify from International media.

No dossier on Balochistan handed to India: Qureshi
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp  ?page=20099\12\story_12-9-2009_pg7_30

No proof of India’s Baloch link: US
http://article.wn.com/view/2009/07/30/US _bails_out_India_from_Balochistan_wrangl e/

Posted by Peter | Report as abusive

Pakistan rejects US ‘AfPak’ policy: Zardari
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/38c842f6-9e6a- 11de-b0aa-00144feabdc0.html

Yeah right! After eating half of US aid and IMF aid, he thinks he has a choice!

Posted by Peter | Report as abusive

“Is Pakistan going to be bankrupt,or implode or simply melt if relations with India continue to be bad. For last 62 years India-Pakistan relations are anything but good ” – Posted by Umair

You need to ask yourself the question: In the last 62 yrs, what has bad relations with Pakistan cost India & what has bad relations with India cost Pakistan?
In case of India, it has cost 4 costly but affordable wars, periodic terror strikes on it’s soil resulting in some loss of civilian life & unrest in the part of one of it’s states i.e. Kashmir. Despite the above, India currently has one of the fastest growing economies in the world, an increasingly tolerant, literate & secular populace & strong democratic institutions. Al in all, India is in a good place; stronger than ever before & getting stronger by the day.
In case of Pakistan, it has cost 4 extremely costly & unaffordable wars, massive defense spending (2/3rd of the revenues) resulting in less focus on economy leading to virtual bankruptcy, army retaining all power & upstaging democratically elected Govts, extremely weak democratic & other institutions, rising radicalism, poverty, unemployment & illiteracy, an increasingly radical & intolerant populace, extremely negative reputation in the world etc etc. In other words a failed & bankrupt state & the unofficial global capital of Terrorism.
Keeping the above in mind, you can do some thinking & figure out as to bad relations has hurt which country more!

“Pakistan is under no obligation to prove either an enemy or friend of India. Otherwise lets maintain status-quo, no need to make progress”

Yes, Pakistan has no obligation to prove anything & we can certainly get back to the status-quo. But can you please tell this to Zardari, Gilani, Qureshi, Malik, Basit etc., who keep ranting everyday that India should resume dialogue with Pakistan. If you want a resumption in dialogue, the onus is on you to prove your sincerity, it’s that simple. Those days are gone when your elected officials would conduct a dialogue on one hand, while on the other hand your army/ISI would plan terror attacks at the same time. Either talk like a civil neighbor or strike like a terrorist. We can handle both so you are the one’s who need to make a choice.

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive

“Does US Govt sit down with terrorists, murderers or liars and negotiates with them?”

“We all know there is problem between USA and UBL. Did USA sit down with UBL and find a common ground or resolve issues? Why not?”

Well, the example of USA and UBL is not the correct parallel to what India and Pakistan are facing rather the Ireland under IRA and Britain would be much better example, since Indians will be sitting down on the table with their alleged perpetrators of state terrorism and not the terrorist themselves and yes Tonu Blaired did sit down with them and today the IRA is history. Was it difficult? Yes it was for him, but he did it for the sake of peace. India should do that too for the sake of its own people. Pawning the Indian future with a territorial dispute is not sensible. If someone thinks otherwise, is simply looking away from reality.

Some commenters are making tall claims that time will destroy Pakistan anyway and the problem will go away with it. Pragmatism suggest otherwise. Collapse of a state with 150 Million is a bad news on the border. Yes ultimately Pakistan is going to be consumed with militancy if it does not curb it soon, and it will not as long as the Kashmir issue is alive. The point is whether India can afford it?

Somalia a tiny country with a fraction of population is a terrible example to see, even magnifying it to imagine what it will look like for India to have such a state on the border is even hard to comprehend. Fallout will include not only millions of refugees crossing borders, but millions of terrorists with more reasons to create havoc across India. I wish sanity prevails in Indian minds to realize the threat sooner than later, just like Britain..

Posted by AAfromUSA | Report as abusive

Mortal
Are you telling me that Pakistan has no appetite and will to stand up to India because the wars with India will be too expensive or unaffordable? Bad relations have hurt both India and Pakistan, you Indians look towards Mumbai attacks as an incident where 10 terrorists killed 162 innocent people. But can you look into the intangible damage it has done? the big question mark that now lingers over India is; being a secure investor friendly country or not? Can India organize Olympics or another major world sporting event? Just like China did the 2008 Olympics. Similarly Pakistan can never forgive you for the 1971 war, the damage has been done and there is too much of bad blood between the countries. Unless we make a truth and reconciliation commission just like was did in South Africa after collapse of aparthied. Maybe from 1965, 1971, even partition, Kargil and Mumbai all key players testify before that ‘truth and reconciliation commission’ and let truth come out and reconciliation begin with a spirit of forgiveness.
If not, its better to keep fighting in an honorable way, atleast until we realize its important to live with peace.
Lastly, be rest assured India WILL NEVER attain its rightful place in the world unless relations with Pakistan are friendly. Because its only PAKISTAN in all your neighbouring countries that has the will and the power to confront you.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

This problem exists because India is weak.

There is no point in blaming Pakistan or US. India is weak not because we don’t have required talent but because we are ruining ourselves by electing bunch of eunuchs who are controlled by Mecca and Rome. PC Chidambram has all the time to fly to US and say Indian police should learn from US police on how to counter terrorism. No one stops and asks back a question to the moron what limits the Indian police force who has been countering these Islamic Barbarians from developing better system than US. Terrorism is new in US but we have been facing it since ages and persons who successfully protected us from Islamic Barbarians were not Abraham Lincoln or George Bush or Obama or Gandhi with any first name but Raja Bhoj, Rana Sanga, Rana Pratap, Shivajee, Guru Har Gobind, Guru Gobind Singh, Corporal Abdul Hamid, Numerous persons who have laid down their lives for this country and all the lunatic bunch of chimps know is to feed Gandhi. We are happy to eat the crap Gandhi as the only hero of India with some supernatural powers because Obama likes him.

Congressi has the time to throw lavish iftaar parties, haj yatra, Christian trips to Jerusalem using the Bhartiya taxpayers money and that too for religions who do not recognize right of existence of the other but nothing for the poor, hungry, exploited Bhartiyas on Deepawali and we are happy on this hypocrisy.

The Foreign Minister has the tendency to say that onus of Mumbai Probe and bringing culprits to justice is on Pakistan. No one stands and ask what the heck is his responsibility? Fool poor Bharatwasis and eat away taxes to grow rich.

The home minister has got all the time in world to fly to US, dine and wine with sponsors of Taliban, ISI and no time to address issues like shortage of officers in Defense Forces. It is peculiar that he finds time to come up with a senseless statement that Intelligence Inputs are not reliable… Because of some Islamic terrorists who were killed in encounter by Gujrat Police and Narendra Modi didn’t get executed? No one stands and ask him why doesn’t he call Intelligence Agencies as collection of idiots, fools and chimps who dole out whatever they can with such precision that specific 4 persons die and not some picnic going family.

Where is the prime minister who was shouting all options open after getting re elected?

Our leaders are not interested in India becoming strong nation who can protect itself and eliminate jehadis of Pakistan. We are extremely happy to see defense people dying on Border in numerous small warfares regularly organized by Pakistan and then throw lavish party for the Intelligence Chief Pasha. We are happy to see a Chiddu going and begging for help and feel proud that he is begging for the right thing. Congressis are more interested in development of United States economy who can only recover by selling guns to both the parties and acting as a broker (commission not defined) on Kashmir as if it a piece of real estate. We have no respect for our defense personnel who died in 1947, 1962, 1965, 1971, 1999 and the youth is now not opting for defense services.

Senseless blogging on articles from Myra McDonald will not solve the problem. Her articles are in no way helpful in forming any opinion. They are collection of events. If you want to solve a problem, look at faults and remove the faults and the first step can be to ask the congressis getting fatter and fatter on our money some of the questions I have asked and also ask them to resign. And most importantly have one of the persons like Raja Bhoj/ Guru Teg Bahadur as leader or role model.

Posted by Rohit | Report as abusive

“Is Pakistan going to be bankrupt,or implode or simply melt if relations with India continue to be bad.”
- Posted by Umair

That’s exactly what’s happening to Pakistan now. Get some international media to your cave! Things happening in your country will have severe longterm consequences for rest of the world and you!

Posted by Ramin | Report as abusive

Mortal:

I suggest you should ask yourself these questions too: If you can please answer them but not with your narrow minded vision in fairness as I know neither India nor Pakistan is saint…. A bit of honesty in the opinion might enhance your credibilty and your fellow country mens… Rather then just saying Pakistan failed state, terrorist, anti india n bla bla n so on useuall read it every other day n we get your aim to brainwash all readers of reuters to be anti Pakistan. But guess you are NOT doing a good job….But then if a ask for fair opnion that might be asking for too much but at least give it a try before you do heva cold glass of water lol..

1) Why would Pakistan want bad relations with India? A country smaller in size, millatry numbers, financialy n so on. Basicialy can not compare to India but then Indian can NOT understand the Jazba in the jawans of the Pakistan Armed Forces as shown in 1965. Unless been forced to and attcked by a BIG bully neighour then logic is to to have good strike force as its the best form of defence.

2) When partition hapened it hapend on the basis that majority Muslim states woul dform Pakistan and the rest remains in India. On that basis Kashmir should be part of Pakistan lets leave that logical sense as 90% population was Muslim in that state. How about passed UN resoultion calling for the peblicite to let the Kashmiris decide their fate. But both above are not accepted by the indian then maybe heva a democratic process as India always tries hardest to portray mother of all democracies maybe put the democratic process in play and let the world know what the Kashmiris want…

Rather then silence them with guns n rape, stage killing n puppet regimes. Even today on BBC the guy who was investigating the rape of two victims of the rapest indian army has been shot as well guess someone is hiding something n denials n so on…

As a kashmiri let me tell all my indian neighours…

Kasmir is NOT part of India it NEVER was till the puppet mahraja signed it the document which was not even a true reflection of kashmiris as he was pro indian n was going to loose it so thought sign it. How can one sign without taking into accout the wishes of the people he is deciding for n so on… Guess your democracy is based on that if you accepted that??

Let make this CLEAR..

People of kashmir are part of people of Pakistan..

In Blood,
In Flesh,
In Geograohy,
In History,
In next of kin,

Indian can try as many extravegent words but it can never be part of Inida with all its might.

Any comment on the rapes of two girls by your brave indian army? Proves how brave it is abducted raping defnecless girls….n even the home minter denying evything n only after the eventual protest they admited now even the guy who is investigating is murders I guess by …. not hard is it??? Th eones that have something to hide in the form of graves that been found, n rape victims n so on… its a TIKKA on the forehead of peace loving indians… Carry on like this surley YOU will win the hears n minds of kashmriis…. Good luck!!! need it

Posted by Kashmiri | Report as abusive

F S Noman:

I hear your prophetic statements and a discourse on greed of India. You are shedding so much water thrugh your eyes that it can take care of Pakistam’s water problems. You know all about Indian Kashmiris but would you like to comment on Kashmiris in POK; enlighten us a bit and we will be so happy if you tell us that they are not living in a hell alternatively called Azad kashmir. talk a bit about Kashmiris displaced by magla dam in pakistan and who left the country—-Mirpuris; why kashmiris do not burn Pakistani flags (like Indian Kashmiris do) despite pakistam sucking POK resources for electricity in Punjabistan. Also why people in Northern Areas who had no political rights of any sorts (ZERO; worse than oppressed POK kashmiris) do not complain despite their status. They must be loving Pakistan a lot! No they are afraid of bullets; they cry inside but not raise slogans; they flee that part and go abroad—Mirpuris in UK. Do they not deserve a drop of your tear since they are part of disputed territory in question.

Are you an anti-India person than a pro-kashmiri? You are shedding crocodile tears. also save a tear for Kashmiri Pundits who are refugees in their own country.
Any comments?

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Can some Pakistani gimme a straight answer? This is the 4th time I am asking: What makes you think you deserve Kashmir”?

Pakistan has been sending terrorists since 60 years, 4 wars, 50000+ people dead, Pakistan bankrupt and nobody knows what Pakistan has been fighting for!

Posted by Soman | Report as abusive

@Peter, Mortal, Rajeev

Guys, it is just a matter of time until the power base in Pakistan is shook from the ground up, by the U.S. Obama has the resolve and determination of steel and he will single out the individuals and groups and so-called notorious state agency actors in Pakistan who are creating trouble. Once Obama singles them out, there will be no more excuses and no one left to blame by Pak State Agencies and Pakistani State agencies will have no where to hide, no from the U.S., not from the Judiciary in Pak and not from the already fed up Pakistani public.

This is when Pakistan will start to become a real country, but it will start with revolution and perhaps some bits of civil war. You can’t stop the will of the people, when the truth comes out, it will be uncontainable.

Nukes will not protect Pakistan from the folly of its own public.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

Mortal, you said:

“In case of Pakistan, it has cost 4 extremely costly & unaffordable wars, massive defense spending (2/3rd of the revenues) resulting in less focus on economy leading to virtual bankruptcy, army retaining all power & upstaging democratically elected Govts, extremely weak democratic & other institutions, rising radicalism, poverty, unemployment & illiteracy, an increasingly radical & intolerant populace,:

–>The business is as good as ever, for the Punjabi Military Mafia Junta that rules Pakistan and keeps it united through an iron fist. It does not matter to the Punjabi elites, that they bleed the rest of the ethnicities and non-punjab areas dry, as they get to eat and drink first and get the best land, most of the opportunities at a good life in Pakistan. Everyone else in Pakistan is free to have leftovers and fend for themself. They are too busy creating enemies, to feed their own stomach and got the begging bowl out to feed themselves and buy weapons for themselves first. Everyone else there can goto hXll.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

We are pretty close to finishing up the touches in Swat valley. Our military has stood behind our nation’s integrity. We have managed to hang on and Pakistan is turning around. I always believed we will emerge stronger and we are doing it. Those who wrote us off have eggs on their faces. We will work on Balochistan and South Waziristan systematically. Inch by inch we will get back to stability and strength. The world is beginning to understand us and respect us. Pakistan has a lot to offer to the world and our strength is an important element for regional peace. If only our neighbors understood what needs to be done and co-operated with us, things would be even better. But they keep saying the same empty things like parrots.

CALLING SOMAN AND ANY OTHER INDIANS

You dont have to discuss Kashmir with Pakistan, but as
many Kashmiris have discussed why dont you ask the
KASHMIRIS WHAT THEY WANT

To suggest that they dont matter or are incapable of making decisions is an insult to them
and shows only fear on your part!

Posted by Fima | Report as abusive

Is Baluchistan becoming another East Pakistan?

“A representative of Baloch National Movement met me more than a year ago at a conference in one of the South Asian countries. He said that if Baluchistan had a border with India, it would have broken away from Pakistan by this time and joined India. That is the reason why New Delhi is suspect in the eyes of Islamabad. His narration of cruelties perpetrated on the Baluchis had a familiar ring because I had heard the same thing in Dhaka after the Bangladesh liberation war. I was told how the cream of society was killed in cold blood”

“The tragedy is that the Punjab dominated Pakistan continues to be a unitary set up while its structure should be federal. It is difficult to say how the situation would develop in Baluchistan in the future. But one thing is sure that laying the blame on India or using more and more force will be counter productive”

http://www.sundaytimes.lk/090913/Interna tional/int_06.html

Posted by Mahmoud | Report as abusive

AAfromUSA:
UK had one IRA.
India has 100 IRAs .. ISI, JeM, Jui, JiI, LeT, TeK and so on. Politicians don’t control Pakistan. ISI has limited control over these 100 terrorist orgs. Every time India talks to politicians, terrorist orgs sabotage it!

Talking to useless politicians is not going anywhere. They have confessed they don’t control the non-state (Pakistani citizens) actors. Any sensible Govt won’t start negotiations withthe state actors (ISI, JeM, Jui etc..).

Under these conditions, improving India’s internal security is the bast option. India is bidding time, hoping US will take care of the issue.

Do you have any other suggestion?

Posted by Soman | Report as abusive

Soman:
while you are waiting for a decent response from any one out of 170million strong nuclear armed Pakistan, here is why India says Kashmir is an integral part of India.

********************************
““An ingenious example of speech and politics occurred recently in the United Nations Assembly that made the world community smile.

A representative from India began: ‘Before beginning my talk I want to tell you something about a rishi named Kashyapa of Kashmir (Kashyapa, son of Marichi, son of Brahma), after whom Kashmir is named.

When he struck a rock and it brought forth water, he thought, ‘What a good opportunity to have a bath.’ He removed his clothes, put them aside on the rock and entered the water. When he got out and wanted to dress, his clothes had vanished. A Pakistani had stolen them.’

The Pakistani representative jumped up furiously and shouted, ‘What are you talking about? The Pakistanis weren’t there at that time.’

The Indian representative smiled and said, ‘And now that we have made that clear, I will begin my speech.’

“…………….And they say Kashmir belongs to them.
**************************************** *
:-)

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

@We are pretty close to finishing up the touches in Swat valley. Our military has stood behind our nation’s integrity. We have managed to hang on and Pakistan is turning around. I always believed we will emerge stronger and we are doing it. Those who wrote us off have eggs on their faces. We will work on Balochistan and South Waziristan systematically. Inch by inch we will get back to stability and strength.”
— Posted by mohammed Anjum

mohammed Anjum: so no plan to finish terrorists for kashmir? Then Balochistan has freedom fighters not terrorists and pakhtunistan freedom has been layed on the solid grounds of 6 and half feet strong NON-VIOLENT PATHAN KHAN Abdul Gaffar Khan,who was mistreated by Pakistan Army and jailed for 15yrs. if you do not know the guy he was Indian freedom fighter who raised unarmed Army for freedom.

________________________________________ ____

In a public speech Gaffar Khan said:

“Where is the democracy that British gave us? Ayub Khan robbed us of it. And what did he give us in return ? He gave us his own version of democracy which does not even deserve the name of democracy.

Look at our financial position, look at our language, culture, society. He has taken it all. Look at our schools, our colleges, the education and instruction of our children. And look at his manners. I am always surprised at these people who keep telling us:”We are making such progress. Pakistan has a target and we are fast approaching it.” Actually there are several jokes in circulation about that. I will tell you one. It goes like this:
A woman said to her husband, warmly embracing him: “Darling, I want a diamond nose-ornament!” The husband replied: “Actually I was considering how I could cut off your nose altogether.”

“All we are asking is for a nose ornament, it does not even have to be diamond. But Pakistan is thinking how they can cut off our nose altogether.”

he said: “I want you and the Pakistani leaders to take a look at the misery which our Balochi brothers are living in. They have been asking and crying and shouting for their rights for the last twenty years. When nobody listened to them they had no choice but to take up arms. You all know what happened to them, the tyranny they had to suffer, the cruelties that were committed. Now Pakistan has found that the question cannot be solved by cruelty and oppression, and these poor people are told; Come on, let us sit down together and settle our dispute. It did not take me long to find out that in the heart of Pakistan there is no room for any Baluchi or Sindhi or Bengali or Pakhtun. Therefore I want my Baluchi brothers to know that the Sindhis and the Pakhtuns are just as oppressed and that our aim and objectives are the same. Pakistan’s real design will be clear if you look at Punjab. The Punjab leaders met and had discussions and consultations with their Jirga. They said “look at the Pakhtuns, they are all very rich. They have electricity you know. Then they said; look at the Sindhis, they have so much land. About the Baluchis they said, they have in their country wealth of mineral resources and gas.”

“Brothers, all this is trickery and they are only saying all this because they want it for themselves: the electricity of Pathans, the land of Sindhis and the minerals of Baluchis. Then they have this idea of “one unit”. Work it out for yourselves, is this in harmony with Islamic belief? Does Islam tell you to rob one brother of electricity, another brother of his fertile land and take possessions of the mines and minerals of another?

And you, ignorant and misguided Pathans, you do not even stop to think whether this is Islam or not, you just swallow anything you are told.”
________________________________

On August 11 1947, the British protectorate of Baluchistan declared its independence. Three days later, Pakistan also became an independent nation. But the two states coexisted for less than a year.”

In March 1948, Pakistan invaded and seized Baluchistan. Under threat of imprisonment, the traditional Baluch leader, the Khan of Kalat, Mir Ahmed Yar Khan, was pressured to sign a treaty of integration. This treaty was, however, never agreed by the Baluchistan parliament and never mandated by the Baluch people.”

Ever since, for six decades, Baluchistan has been subjected to Pakistani military occupation, political domination, economic exploitation and cultural hegemony. Pakistan is an oppressed nation turned oppressor nation. It now adopts the imperialist tactics of its former colonial overlords to subjugate and exploit the Baluch.

@The world is beginning to understand us and respect us. Pakistan has a lot to offer to the world and our strength is an important element for regional peace. If only our neighbors understood what needs to be done and co-operated with us, things would be even better. But they keep saying the same empty things like parrots.”
–Afghanistan hates Pakistan for its contrubution of taliban and Al-Qaida to them–it is parrotish to you, but it is TRUE not empty. Get used to the Truth. Yiu are going to hear it until you fix yourself.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Rajeev I am an Indian Panjabi and am quite moderate in my religious views (please do not suggest that I am pakistani impersonating a Sikh).

Yes India has contained and made steps to normalise the situation in Punjab. But many of us feel we have made compromises and feel let down. The problem is that we have no real representation in Indian politics within extreme parties like BJP, while this status quo is maintained we still feel marginalized. However BJP tries to imply that it is representing all, this is not the case, there is still the uneasiness that it has too much support of factionist hindus and I for that matter do not feel it represents us.

Yes congress has taken steps, but it will take more than the post of a Sikh as Prime Minister to allocate real power to the Sikhs and this is what needs to be worked on for us to feel a real part of India and not just contained in Punjab.

(Also releasing of films like Singh is King is carricaturing and does not help matters.)

Posted by Amrit | Report as abusive

“Lastly, be rest assured India WILL NEVER attain its rightful place in the world unless relations with Pakistan are friendly. Because its only PAKISTAN in all your neighboring countries that has the will and the power to confront you”

Again with same melodramatic macho confrontational attitude. I hate to break the news to you but India is on it’s way to attaining it’s place in the world as we speak, in spite of Pakistan. Pakistan might have held India back in the past but not anymore. Maybe, you haven’t read an int’l business paper/journal recently but for the year 2009, more foreign money has been invested in India than any other nation in the world, including China. It is hosting the next commonwealth games & you can be rest assured that someday it’ll host the Olympics as well. Today the whole world has a stake in India & after the next confrontation (terror attack), Pakistan will not only get a strong response from India but it will also get a response from the world & it will be shunned & isolated diplomatically. So you guys should think about the reppercussions before planning anymore confrontations. India is moving & will continue to move forward in spite of your ‘confrontations’, it doesn’t matter anymore. So, it’s up to you guys now, whether you wanna keep living with a vengeful, belligerent & confrontational attitude or give up the hate & become a friendly neighbor. You guys have a chance to make amends, change the way you did things in the past & make a fresh start. Whether you chose to do it or not, is entirely up to you.

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive

“you Indians look towards Mumbai attacks as an incident where 10 terrorists killed 162 innocent people. But can you look into the intangible damage it has done?”

You can talk to any Pakistani diplomat/foreign relations adviser and he/she will tell you that the Mumbai attacks has caused more harm to Pakistan’s reputation, internationally than probably any other incident in history. It was actually the first time that almost every country in the world sided with India & openly criticized Pakistan. As horrific & sad the incident itself was, the aftermath was a big diplomatic victory for India & arguably the biggest diplomatic loss for Pakistan. When the Mumbai attacks happened last November, I remember it was the 4 day ‘thanksgiving day’ weekend here in the US & every news channel (CNN, Fox, MSNBC, ABC, CBS etc) covered it day & night while beaming the same headline: ‘Pakistani terrorists attack Mumbai’. It was probably the most covered incident by mainstream American media other than 9/11 or the Obama election. Don’t you think that Pakistan’s reputation took a massive bruisng during & after that incident?

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive

“you Indians look towards Mumbai attacks as an incident where 10 terrorists killed 162 innocent people. But can you look into the intangible damage it has done?” – Posted by Umair

You can talk to any Pakistani diplomat/foreign relations adviser and he/she will tell you that the Mumbai attacks has caused more harm to Pakistan’s reputation, internationally than probably any other incident in history. It was actually the first time that almost every country in the world sided with India & openly criticized Pakistan. As horrific & sad the incident itself was, the aftermath was a big diplomatic victory for India & arguably the biggest diplomatic loss for Pakistan. When the Mumbai attacks happened last November, I remember it was the 4 day ‘thanksgiving day’ weekend here in the US & every news channel (CNN, Fox, MSNBC, ABC, CBS etc) covered it day & night while beaming the same headline: ‘Pakistani terrorists attack Mumbai’. It was probably the most covered incident by mainstream American media other than 9/11 or the Obama election. Don’t you think that Pakistan’s reputation took a massive bruisng during & after that incident?

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive

Dumb tactics, Balochistan has never asked for autonomy, there is no such thing as a Punjabistan movement in Pakistan and Pakistan is in no danger of imploding, we are one of the few countires able to protect ourselves with nuclear defence.
However there is the uncomfortable issue of
Khalistan possibly waiting to ignite, Nagaland and Indias many unhappy minorities who are sick of losing out to hindu nationalist.

Posted by F S Noman | Report as abusive

Rohit opinions of people like you is exactly what Im talking about and these leave me less then comfatable!

Posted by Amrit | Report as abusive

Kashmiri:
I think you are an impostor. You seem to be Pakistani cuz Kashmiris don’t write like this. Also you claim a lot and accuse a lot without any evidences.

So it’s best to ignore you!

Posted by Soman | Report as abusive

CALLING SOMAN AND ANY OTHER INDIANS
You dont have to discuss Kashmir with Pakistan, but as
many Kashmiris have discussed why dont you ask the
KASHMIRIS WHAT THEY WANT
- Posted by Fima

Thank you for your concern! We don’t need you as a lawyer or mediator. We are talking to talking to Kashmiris everyday and that’s an internal matter of India.

Kashmiris have elected a Govt recently with more than 70% votes. A record turnaround compared to India’s national elections. We are talking to the elected Govt, Opposition and the militant leaders in Kashmir. Most of the the militant leaders have given up guns and are part of the peace process.

Please do us two favors:
1. Keep your terrorists on your side of border because your investments are not paying off!
2. Vacate the occupied Kashmir (PoK) before we make you do so. Just vacate and go! What makes you think you deserve that? What are the Chinese doing there? Does that area belong to Kashmiris or Chinese?

Posted by Soman | Report as abusive

CALLING SOMAN AND ANY OTHER INDIANS
You dont have to discuss Kashmir with Pakistan, but as
many Kashmiris have discussed why dont you ask the
KASHMIRIS WHAT THEY WANT
- Posted by Fima

Thank you for your concern! We don’t need you as a lawyer or mediator. We are talking to talking to Kashmiris everyday and that’s an internal matter of India.

Kashmiris have elected a Govt recently with more than 70% votes. A record turnaround compared to India’s national elections. We are talking to the elected Govt, Opposition and the militant leaders in Kashmir. Most of the the militant leaders have given up guns and are part of the peace process.

Please do us two favors:
1. Vacate the occupied Kashmir (PoK) before we make you do so. Just vacate and go! What makes you think you deserve that? What are the Chinese doing there? Does that area belong to Kashmiris or Chinese?
2. Keep your terrorists on your side of border because your investments are not paying off!

Posted by Soman | Report as abusive

CALLING SOMAN AND ANY OTHER INDIANS
You dont have to discuss Kashmir with Pakistan, but as
many Kashmiris have discussed why dont you ask the
KASHMIRIS WHAT THEY WANT
- Posted by Fima

Thank you for your concern! We don’t need you as a lawyer or mediator. We are talking to talking to Kashmiris everyday and that’s an internal matter of India.

Kashmiris have elected a Govt recently with more than 70% votes. A record turnaround compared to India’s national elections. We are talking to the elected Govt, Opposition and the militant leaders in Kashmir. Most of the the militant leaders have given up guns and are part of the peace process.

Please do us two favors:
1. Vacate the occupied Kashmir (PoK) before we make you do so. Just vacate and go! What makes you think you deserve that? What are the Chinese doing there? Does that area belong to Kashmiris or Chinese?
2. Keep your terrorists on your side of border because your investments are not paying off! You are bankrupt and civilians are dying!

Posted by Soman | Report as abusive

Which Kasmiris are you talking to, your puppets???
Everyone knows those elections were a sham because majority of Kashmiris rioted and protested against them.
Whose the imposter, why dont you give some details as your knowledge of Kashmir, its poeple is laughable

Posted by Fima | Report as abusive

@ Amrit, you said
“I am an Indian Panjabi and am quite moderate in my religious views (please do not suggest that I am pakistani impersonating a Sikh).”

“Yes India has contained and made steps to normalise the situation in Punjab. But many of us feel we have made compromises and feel let down. The problem is that we have no real representation in Indian politics within extreme parties like BJP, while this status quo is maintained we still feel marginalized. However BJP tries to imply that it is representing all, this is not the case, there is still the uneasiness that it has too much support of factionist hindus and I for that matter do not feel it represents us.Yes congress has taken steps, but it will take more than the post of a Sikh as Prime Minister to allocate real power to the Sikhs and this is what needs to be worked on for us to feel a real part of India and not just contained in Punjab.

(Also releasing of films like Singh is King is carricaturing and does not help matters.)”

Amrit, you start by saying that you are not impersonating a Sikh. Taking into account that what you say is true, your post suggests otherwise or you must think on levels of far right.

You say that India has taken some steps to normalize the situation, and you still feel let down? You don’t talk like an Indian (the majority), but keep on harping on what India has not offered. How many factions of religions (not pointing to one) India had to appease for everyone to be happy? For once stop being self centric and act as an Indian. We put the Nationality first here and Religion next, unlike other nations.

What do you mean by real power to Sikhs? You are in a democratic country. you can always use this power to get that real power you are talking about. If your views are widely accepted, you will be given that real power by the people themselves. Who asked you to get contained in punjab alone? There are lot of Sikhs who have made it big in other Indian cities and towns as well.

Releasing films like “Singh is King” is not caricaturing. It is pure entertainment. You just cannot take one film and point out (i don’t find anything demeaning to Sikhs in the film either). What about the other thousand released all across India? Get out of your well and think like an Indian first (if you are one)

Posted by Wooferswitch | Report as abusive

Fima you said
“Which Kasmiris are you talking to, your puppets???
Everyone knows those elections were a sham because majority of Kashmiris rioted and protested against them.
Whose the imposter, why dont you give some details as your knowledge of Kashmir, its poeple is laughable”

A section of Kashmiris and rioters protested. For you they were original kashmiris and all others puppets? Shows your bias towards others there itself. Kashmir is already divided now (a part occupied by pakistan). You are always free to go live in POK if you want to stay with pakistan. Good for you and good riddance for India.

Every citizen of India is entitled to Kashmir as they are entitled to the rest of the country. Kashmir is not entirely yours to divide it as you like. It is an integral part of India and will always be.

Majority protested? A handful of out of work thugs protesting and fuelled by hate mongering mullahs is not a majortiy. Try doing that in your beloved pakistan and you will be roasted to death. Be happy you live in a democracy, or go to pakistan where you would be treated as second grade citizen for generations to come.

India has already given away part of kashmir (thanks to eunuch politicians)in the past. Now Indians have learned their lessons, and not one inch will be given away now

Posted by Wooferswitch | Report as abusive

@Everyone knows those elections were a sham.
- Posted by Fima
FIMA: Sir/Madam: who is “everyone”. Certainly not those kashmiris who voted and baffled the separatists by heavy turnout. Show some credible news to prove your point that the elections were sham. Do not embarass yourself. It was free and fair elections.
http://newshopper.sulekha.com/india-gene ral-elections-2009/news/kashmir-separati sts-baffled-by-high-voter-turnout.htm
How are Kashmiris in POK doing?

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Amrit, you said:

“Rajeev I am an Indian Panjabi and am quite moderate in my religious views (please do not suggest that I am pakistani impersonating a Sikh).

Yes India has contained and made steps to normalise the situation in Punjab. But many of us feel we have made compromises and feel let down. The problem is that we have no real representation in Indian politics within extreme parties like BJP, while this status quo is maintained we still feel marginalized. However BJP tries to imply that it is representing all, this is not the case, there is still the uneasiness that it has too much support of factionist hindus and I for that matter do not feel it represents us.

Yes congress has taken steps, but it will take more than the post of a Sikh as Prime Minister to allocate real power to the Sikhs and this is what needs to be worked on for us to feel a real part of India and not just contained in Punjab.

(Also releasing of films like Singh is King is carricaturing and does not help matters.)”

–>Amrit, India can’t go on setting precedences and carving up its territories for all different minorities everywhere. You have to keep a mental check on who you hang out with, do you hang out with secular people, or people hell bent on creating its own Punjabi state? let me tell you, most Sikh diaspora in Canada, UK, USA, EUROPE are so disenchanted with wasting their time and efforts fighting India with a separate state that since the last 17 years, they have spent their effort on improving their lives and actually building a stronger, more educated, progressive, moderate Sikh community, that is worth of respect and part of the larger Indian family. If you feel Sikhs are underrepresented, why don’t you personally get involved in the political process? Don’t let fellow punjabi’s push their blame stories on your mind, use your own ability to rationalize and understand, that a 2% minority cannot have 15% of the land, which feeds all of India, it simply will not happen, therefore you must realize that it is in the favour of disenfranchised Sikhs to work with the Indian union, and be partners in success. You will realize that a positive, friendly, unfrontational approach will leap Sikh representation lightyears into the future, in Indian politics. Don’t give into the blame games and supremicist and racist views of your fathers have been feeding you, most of it is political crap and to set the history straight on a Sikh nation, Sikhs only had a nation in the now Pakistan area, for only 50 years and then it fell apart. A true Punjabistan, should actually be formed out of Pakistan, it Pakistani land, where the bulk of Punjabi actually is, please educate your self on history, the Sikh forefathers sided with a Hindu India and don’t forget the Sikh heros like Ranjit Singh, and those brave Sikhs that defended India against Islamic oppression. You Sikhs are the lions of India, let’s always work together and love and respect each other, together, we can do anything and Sikhs already have come a huge way. I have lived with Sikhs my whole life, and let me tell, you, most Jatt kids form their views from what their fathers tell them. This life is your time, to step back and forge your own new identity and realize that Sikh society is so much more than just some minority, who is not getting a seat, it is is a Global Nation, that one of its own as a prime minister. Forget about the BJP, they have their own troubles and do not represent fully, a secular and democratic India. But let me be clear, no minorities should ever militarily challenge or even advocate threaten the union or the state, with force, otherwise, they might find themselves on the wrong side of public opinion. Sikhs are smart people and so much more than that and will always find a way to progress, other than violent means or Pakistani fueled terrorism. Please choose your own path and be bigger than what you have been told that you can be.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

@Rajeev I am an Indian Panjabi and am quite moderate in my religious views (please do not suggest that I am pakistani impersonating a Sikh).

Yes India has contained and made steps to normalise the situation
-posted by Amrit

Amrit:
I did not exchange any posts with you. I checked. First off, there is no AMRIT on the blog before you saidn this (correct me; yes do that). But in any case assuming you are a genuine Indian Punjabi Sikh, I will say that I agree with the responses you got from several other commenters. I have lived in the middle of Sikhs in Amritsar for 10yrs and around the country and interacted with them. A majority of friends in Punjab are Sikhs. Sikh community is brave and generous with big heart and Sikhs are so dear to me and I defend them at any cost.
If you want to hold onto your whatever pro-Khalistan views, by following that dentist Tunda from Tanda, I say I’ll you have no basis. If you still want to do that, consider yourself a TRACE minority. India and the majority Sikhs are most happy to ignore you.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

“Rajeev I am an Indian Panjabi and am quite moderate in my religious views (please do not suggest that I am pakistani impersonating a Sikh). But many of us feel we have made compromises and feel let down. The problem is that we have no real representation in Indian politics within extreme parties like BJP” – Posted by Amrit
I agree that your identity is indeed quite questionable. Regardless of whether you are a sikh or a Pakistani impostor, you certainly don’t represent the sikh community in any way, shape or form so just speak for yourself. If you are an Indian Sikh, you should know that the BJP is closely aligned with Shiromani Akali Dal (the only Sikh political entity in India) & enjoys the support of many sikh organizations. As a sikh myself, I have quite a few sikh relatives & acquaintances all over India & I can tell you that many of them support BJP over Congress. I don’t know which India or which part of India, you are living in, to feel marginalized because most sikhs that I know of, are doing fantastically well in India. In fact Sikhs are one of the most prosperous communities in India & Punjab is one of the most prosperous states. Sikhs in india have all the power & freedom they need so please check your facts.

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive

Why do we always see Jehadis staring back at photographer? Don’t they laugh?

Posted by Rohit | Report as abusive

Fine Think what you like I actually work and is the first time I had read these articles.I thought coming from a democracy I could state an opinion without a paranoid response.Yes BJP seems to have made progress even by having Rajnath Singh as leading member but it instills too many hindu doctrines rather than secular party politics.
Yes Sikhs are lions but please dont be patronising us and also making fun,dont appreciate us being protrayed in comedy roles all the time why not any others.
Yes Punjab is a rich region which is why Isaid some of feel that we have made compromises these are the problems of central administrations which is why others favor smaller states.Yes there have been improvements but we are not there at alland Sikhs have to have more representation yes they will have to work harder, no we dont have all the freedom and power YET.

Posted by Amrit | Report as abusive

Amrit:

What is secularism? Everyone has a different definition. Your definition will be influenced by your way of thinking. Christian country’s definition are influenced other way around and Islamic nations have extremely well defined secularism. The essence is that one should find an environment to be able to exploit his full potential aimed at development of society and be able to practice his / her set of beliefs with peace. On a lighter note, sometimes I feel, the new religion of this world will be secularism. This new religion would be unable to apply common sense because it will always be busy in cent percent perfection and bring more destruction to society than Islam/ Christianity combined.

Posted by Rohit | Report as abusive

Mortal Said:

“I don’t know which India or which part of India, you are living in, to feel marginalized because most sikhs that I know of, are doing fantastically well in India. In fact Sikhs are one of the most prosperous communities in India & Punjab is one of the most prosperous states. Sikhs in india have all the power & freedom they need so please check your facts.
- Posted by Mortal ”

–>All Pakistani friends, please take note, Sikhs are happy and living their lives well in India. I can’t say the same for Sikh’s in Pakistan, who are being forced to pay Jizya by the Muslim Terrorists, created by Pak State.

I am punjabi too, but Hindu, nevertheless, extremely proud and happy for the Sikh community, their friendship, progress and hard work. Sikhism is a progressive, friendly, and peaceful religion. Many people would progress much further, if they emulated the Sikh community. Sikhs are the guardians and lions of India and part of the Indian family, they are capable of progressing as far as they want. We don’t need our Pak friends belittling the Indian Sikh’s capabilities to succeed in all fields.

Way to go desi!

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive

@Yes BJP seems to have made progress even by having Rajnath Singh as leading member but it instills too many hindu doctrines rather than secular party politics.
-by Amrit

Amrit: Rest aside, tell Reuters.
1. a single doctrine of BJP that a Sikh can feel insecure of?
2. what is the thing you love about India?
3. Do you feel angry that Pakistan armed Sikh militants that resulted in thousands of deaths?
Please be specific.

@Yes Sikhs are lions but please dont be patronising us and also making fun,dont appreciate us being protrayed in comedy roles all the time why not any others.
-by Amrit
Amrit: Who is “us” here? Talk about you. This is so not typical of Sikhs what you said. Sikhs are known to play jokes upon themselves and make others laugh.

ALSO, is it not allowed in democracy to say that your views belong to a TRACE minority especially when the commenters of your own community strongly disagree with you?

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive