India, Pakistan and Afghanistan: the impossible triangle

September 25, 2009

A single paragraph in General Stanley McChrystal’s leaked assessment of the war in Afghanistan has generated much interest, particularly in Pakistan.

“Indian political and economic influence is increasing in Afghanistan, including significant development efforts and financial investment,” it says. “In addition the current Afghan government is perceived by Islamabad to be pro-Indian. While Indian activities largely benefit the Afghan people, increasing Indian influence in Afghanistan is likely to exacerbate regional tensions and encourage Pakistani counter-measures in Afghanistan or India.”

He did not say anything that anybody did not already know. Pakistan has long been wary of India’s growing influence in Afghanistan since the fall of the Taliban in 2001 and is seen as reluctant to turn against the Afghan Taliban and other insurgent groups as long as it believes it might need them to counter India. The fact that he said it all suggested a renewed focus on the relationship between India and Pakistan, whose confrontation to the east spilled long ago into rivalry over Afghanistan to the west.

Pakistan’s Daily Times said in an editorial the rivalry between India and Pakistan in Afghanistan highlighted the need for peace talks between the two nuclear-armed neighbours, which have fought three full-scale wars since independence in 1947, two of them over Kashmir.

“One must be clear in one’s mind that in many ways the mess in Afghanistan is actually a spillover of the Indo-Pak conflict in the region of South Asia,” it said. “Pakistan’s policy of “strategic depth”, which reached a climax with the hijacking of an Indian airliner to Kandahar in 1999, was in reaction to the unresolved dispute over Kashmir which created the “threat of India” that Pakistan felt “from the east”. Even today, as Pakistan struggles against the Taliban, 80 percent of its army is stationed on the Indian border.

Dawn newspaper said McChrystal’s words on India were ”perhaps as significant as any other in the report”.  The Americans appeared to have finally understood, it said, that the war in Afghanistan could not be won without help from Pakistan. “But that means gaining Pakistan’s full cooperation, which in turn means alleviating the national security establishment’s concerns vis-à-vis India.”

However, as discussed in this analysis, India is in little mood to move rapidly towards peace talks with Pakistan until it takes greater action against militants it blames for last year’s attack on Mumbai, although the two countries have been taking incremental steps towards repairing relations. Many argue that the powerful Pakistan Army would be unlikely to turn against militant groups it once cultivated to fight India in Kashmir, without a comprehensive peace settlement with India. (For an understanding of how complicated all this is, read this book reviewby Pakistani strategic analyst Ayesha Siddiqa.)

So, to win the war in Afghanistan, the United States needs help from Pakistan, which Pakistan in turn is reluctant to provide so long as it believes it is threatened by India to both the west and east.  From Washington’s point of view, it needs to nudge Islamabad and New Delhi towards the negotiating table, by leaning on Pakistan to act against militant groups and putting pressure on India to resume peace talks. 

Here is another catch. Although the relationship between the United States and India blossomed under former President George W. Bush, there is far less warmth in New Delhi towards the Obama administration. The relationship started on the wrong foot with India concerned about increasing U.S. economic dependence on its rival China.

Now India and the United States are at loggerheads over President Barack Obama’s nuclear non-proliferation drive.  India has never signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. That row, in turn, complicates efforts by Washington to persuade India to talk to Pakistan.

(Reuters file photos: Obama with Karzai and Biden; a British soldier in Afghanistan; hijacked Indian Airlines plane in Kandahar)

Comments

Eureka .. Eureka ..

‘Village’ of White Germans Discovered in Pakistan
http://hotair.com/greenroom/archives/200 9/09/26/village-of-white-germans-discove red-in-pakistan/

Posted by Sam | Report as abusive
 

“While Indian activities largely benefit the Afghan people, increasing Indian influence in Afghanistan is likely to exacerbate regional tensions and encourage Pakistani counter-measures in Afghanistan or India.”

So India is the culprit in undertaking activities that benefit the Afghan People? Moreover, the General see this as a threat to security. Wouldn’t the answer lie in telling Pakistan to do better humanitarian work in Afghanistan and turn public opinion in its own favour? Or is the General implying that that the answer lies in telling India to stop doing any further constructive and beneficial work there?

“the mess in Afghanistan is actually a spillover of the Indo-Pak conflict in the region of South Asia,”

Oh really? I thought the mess was due to the fact that America wanted to go after Osama. Does anyone even remember that 9/11 and to get Osama (“dead or alive”)was what started this whole mess? Are we now to believe that were it not for Kashmir, there would be peace in Afghanistan and 9/11 would never have happened?

Posted by Dara | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan as everybody knows is pro China. Did India at any time objects this. Then why Pakistan must object Afganistan’s relationship with India which does not have border with it.
First trade and commerce will be within neighbours and then only with far off countries. Afganistan ruling and opposition parties like India and their policies.Hence they want a better relationship with India. Why should anybody object this?

Posted by S.Chandrasekaran | Report as abusive
 

All Indian friends are trying their best to demonize both Pakistan and ISI. Just because India is big and spending money in Afghanistan does not mean Pakistan will sit back quitely. Pakistan has its regional interests and Pakistan has enough resources and will to nurture its interets no matter how big or strong India is. So India, get ready to face Pakistan, we will safeguard our regional interests in Afghanistan and elsewhere.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Re the Hafiz Saeed video, my comment was about the voiceover rather than the pictures.

I tried to address the LeT question here:

http://www.reuters.com/article/reutersEd ge/idUSTRE55K0TO20090622?sp=true

Stephen Tankel also has an interesting post here on Jaish & LeT (which was helpfully pointed out by someone here in an earlier comment):

http://icsr.info/blog/Bahawalpurs-Real-E state-Boom

Posted by Myra MacDonald | Report as abusive
 

Myra, Gentle Readers,

The US/Nato forces seems to be obsessed that they alone will determine how the Af-Pak war will turn out. Pakistan does not seem to be in synch.

Check this out.
http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/2167198

At about 17.35, the commentator, Aamir Ghauri, gives another perspective of Pakistan’s end game.

Pakistan is waiting for China to play its cards and is fairly confident that an economically imposing China and a resurgent Pakistan can checkmate all and sundry the in Af-Pak wars.

Contrarian

 

Your analysis is off the base.

McCrystall’s neeocon ideas are fed by Pak/ISI anxiety about pro-India Karzai gov in Kabul. If true, it means that non-military forces can tip the scale in Kabul. So what is NATO/ISAF doing in Hindu Kush?

From my understanding of Pak/ISI strategic outlook, they would rather block NATO supplies from Turkmenistan than allow ISAF forces on the ground succeed in Khandhar – Phustun stronghold of Karzai’s ancestry.

Pak/ISI is not really interested in supporting Obama in his fight against Taliban and Al Queda in Hindu Kush. Principally because the sooner ISAF is forced to withdraw its ground forces the better for Pak/ISI to entrench its own power in the region.

For Iran, Pak/ISI is a Sunni (Punjabi) tribal group bent on social hegemony of Hindu Kush – which will never be allowed by Shiite Persians. Nor will India allow Pak/ISI any military stronghold in Kabul.

In sum, it is daunting for beltway decision-makers to understand the cultural context of the Hindu Kush tribal conflict which until 1947 didn’t include Sunni Pak/ISI.

Posted by hari | Report as abusive
 

The big issues are as follows:

1. Pakistan does not have the ability to win a war with India. All it can do is use threat of nukes to cause a ceasefire when it is beaten conventionally. History has shown this every time.

2. Pakistan claims to support the fight against terrorism. At the same time, it seems to support terrorism. And again at the same time, it seems to be trying to keep terrorism from taking control of it’s country.

3. China will not help Pakistan. It relies on the West for trade. And the West only trades because China minds it’s own business. If China helps Pakistan in war, it loses it’s trade and economic growth. China will not sacrifice it’s own interests for Pakistan.

4. Even with Pakistan falling apart from extremists, Pakistan supporters still believe it must work against the West and India interests. The more unstable it is, the more hostile it becomes to West and India. Do the pakistani supporters support Pakistan? Or do they actually support the extremists? Or are they simply lashing out at traditional enemies, rather then the muslim enemies that are slowly taking over their own country?

Posted by Anon | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan has its regional interests and Pakistan has enough resources and will to nurture its interets no matter how big or strong India is. So India, get ready to face Pakistan, we will safeguard our regional interests in Afghanistan and elsewhere.
- Posted by Umair

Your logic is like France has regional interests in Germany. And if Germans like Brits, then France would send terrorists and suicide bombers to Germany.

Or

US has regional inteests in Mexico. If Mexicans like Canadians, US would send terrorists and suicide bombers to Germany.

What makes Pakistanis think that Afghannistan is their’s and they can kill, destroy as they wish? What can’t Pakistanis respect the sovereignty of Afghanistan?

This just shows the immaturity of Pakistan as a nation. You guys don’t deserve a sq foot area, forget nation. You have never showed the responsibility or maturity as a nation. Only Pakistan is a danger to itself and others.

Posted by Ramin | Report as abusive
 

Umair: “Just because India is big and spending money in Afghanistan does not mean Pakistan will sit back quitely. Pakistan has its regional interests and Pakistan has enough resources and will to nurture its interets no matter how big or strong India is.”

If India’s constructive projects inside Afghanistan can irk Pakistan so much, then India has a similar objection to Chinese involvement inside Pakistan. China has overtly sold military equipment to Pakistan on top of it. It is building a big port at Gawadar in Balochistan. Pakistanis might wash it off as long term friendship. But to Indians, it is definitely a collaboration against Indian interests. So please cut off your diplomatic ties with China and ask them to pack up and leave. Then India will think about its relationship in Afghanistan. Also, there is some more on the list:

1. Close your mission in Sri Lanka and Bangladesh. Pakistani presence in these two countries is a threat to Indian security and integrity. Leave all our neighboring nations.

2. Stop relations with Iran because India and Iran need to sustain their relationship. Your gas pipeline project is against Indian interests.

If you thought these statements are illogical, then realize that this is what Pakistan is pushing the Americans to say. And it is not going to happen. Every country has its sovereign right to diplomatic relations with any country they wish.

 

So India, get ready to face Pakistan, we will safeguard our regional interests in Afghanistan and elsewhere.
- Posted by Umair

So India, Afghanistan are part of Pakistan’s backyard! Do you also need Iran, China, Saudi, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh?

Where does your regional interest stop?

And sending terrorists and bombs is the only way you got to prove your regional interest?

Have you ever thought you can also gain regional interest by building roads, hospitals, school, Parliaments, Hydro-elec power stations, Transmission lines or feeding the school children? But then how can you donate, when you are begging yourself? Sending terrorists is the cheaper way to prove regional influence!

Posted by Sameer | Report as abusive
 

US threatens airstrikes and sending commandos deep inside Pakistan!

Western intelligence officers say Pakistan has been moving Taliban leaders to the volatile city of Karachi, where it would be impossible to strike. US officials have even discussed sending commandos to Quetta to capture or kill the Taliban chiefs before they are moved.

The United States is threatening to launch airstrikes on Mullah Omar and the Taliban leadership in the Pakistani city of Quetta as frustration mounts about the ease with which they find sanctuary across the border from Afghanistan.

Senior Pakistani officials in New York revealed that the US had asked to extend the drone attacks into Quetta and the province of Baluchistan

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/wo rld/Afghanistan/article6850838.ece

Posted by Robin@hotmail.com | Report as abusive
 

Dear AAfromUSA

Please read my earlier note. India would love to trade with Pak rather than fight. Each war was started by Pak and India merely protected itself, won each time and returned ALL overrun territory. 90, 000 Pak prisoners of war and defeated generals were treated honorably.

It prefers trade so both can be better off and gave Pak, Most favored status and removed border taxes for Pak goods more than a decade ago.

The US has wanted Kashmir, named centuries ago after the Hindu saint Kashyap, since the second world war. Pak is a battering ram for the US, which wants Kashmir for its own purposes, certainly not to present it to Pak. Where does that leave Pak? With leaders whining for more money which never reaches ordinary Pakistanis.

Why not indulge in trade instead?

We too have MILLIONS of refugees. We do not see Pak as bad, simply as crazy neighbors who prefer war to trade.

Posted by Kurien | Report as abusive
 

Finally US/NATO got some wisdom!

“Western troops might be fighting on the wrong side of the border”

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/sto ry/0,25197,26132293-2703,00.html

Posted by Soman | Report as abusive
 

Obama makes decides!

McChrystal report officially backburnered now
http://hotair.com/archives/2009/09/26/mc chrystal-report-officially-backburnered- now/

US threatens to escalate operations inside Pakistan
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnew s/asia/pakistan/6237185/US-threatens-to- escalate-operations-inside-Pakistan.html

Frustration leads to US threat to bomb Pakistan bases
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/sto ry/0,25197,26132293-2703,00.html

I am so proud of Obama! This decision will save the lives of so many soldiers!

Posted by Devol | Report as abusive
 

Jihad in Pakistan’s South Punjab

Cancer is going to the brain now!

http://www.longwarjournal.org/threat-mat rix/archives/2009/09/jihad_in_pakistans_ south_punja.php

Posted by Rodeo | Report as abusive
 

Terror’s Training Ground

“We can tell you without closing our eyes that we don’t see anything.”

http://www.newsline.com.pk/NewsSep2009/c overstorysep.htm

Posted by Sam | Report as abusive
 

Can’t Prosecute JuD for killing 170 people in India: Pakistan
http://www.onlinenews.com.pk/details.php  ?id=152497

But …

Can help JuD set up 10 new training camps to kill more!
http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2 009/09/pakistan_opens_new_t.php

And someone suggested India should talk peace with Pakistan!

Posted by Robin | Report as abusive
 

AAfromUSA (Alocoholic Anonymous from USA?)

Excuse me, your argument sounds deranged. India continues to enjoy better relations with all its neighbors than that with Pakistan. According to your logic, Pakistan should be blamed, isn’t it?

Pakistan has blamed the Soviet jihad for its descent in to chaos. Pakistan has blamed NATO for the Talibanization of its country. Pakistan has blamed the US for meddling in the country, yet it demands loads of money from it. Similarly, Pakistan has blamed Kashmir for the unrest in South Asia. What new is Pakistan going to invent to blame its problems on an external source?

Posted by Nikhil | Report as abusive
 

“Are we now to believe that were it not for Kashmir, there would be peace in Afghanistan and 9/11 would never have happened?”

Well 9/11 had nothing to do with Kashmir and Afghan mess started due to the arrogance of two world powers fighting a cold war. Kashmir issue creates hostile sentiments that rise with militancy in the region (blaming one another is no way resolving it).

Just as cancer metastasize itself in vulnerable parts of the body, AQ finds these hostile sentiments a favorable ground to lodge itself and spread its menace around the world.

Not considering the ground realities is simply being blind to the destructive future. India and Pakistan both must act now. The Kashmir issue may not have caused the Afghan problem but settling issues between Indo-Pak will definitely help resolving it.

Posted by AAfromUSA | Report as abusive
 

Richard Holbrook today came on Fareed Zakaria GPS on CNN and reiterated the main objective of the Afghan mission: “rootout Al-Qaeda and all militant element bent on killing U.S. citizens. Until that objective is completed, the US will stay in Afghanistan”

Loosely translated: “Either you are with us or against us, we don’t trust Pakistan to eradicate US threats, so we can leave.”

Pakistan needs to get off the fence and decide whether it wants to be on the end of a very large canon. Beggars have no place dictating terms and asking for more free beggar bowl money. Zardari keeps soliciting cash for the Pak Army and not for the people.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive
 

The “End Game” begins!

Obama gives notice to Zardari that US Special Ops are going to Quetta, Karachi .. everywhere!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnew s/asia/pakistan/6237185/US-threatens-to- escalate-operations-inside-Pakistan.html

Zardari gets mad and sick and boycotts all Obama speeches! Visits hospital too!
http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_deta il.asp?Id=24692

Army/ISI go on emergency .. hide the AQ/Talibans quickly .. get ready for Drones and Special Ops in Quetta, Karachi .. everywhere!
http://www.onlinenews.com.pk/details.php  ?id=152243

Pakistan army ordered to hit back at U.S. forces
http://www.tehrantimes.com/index_View.as p?code=177691

Posted by Robin | Report as abusive
 
 

@Kurien

Hard to trade with India when India allows very few products that its neighbors produce to be imported. Trade is two-ways not just one-way.

Your claims about wars and US wanting Kashmir similarly one-sided nonsense.

The Afghan effort is stumbling because its been under-resourced since 2001, and the Afghan allies the West has are very poor. The India-Pakistan angle is a sideshow.

 

Robin says:

“Western intelligence officers say Pakistan has been moving Taliban leaders to the volatile city of Karachi, where it would be impossible to strike. US officials have even discussed sending commandos to Quetta to capture or kill the Taliban chiefs before they are moved.”

–>If Pak establishment chooses to protect Criminal Taliban and put them close to innocent civilians as human shields, so be it. Let the Drones launch surgical strikes into urban cities to root out terrorists. We have the technology and the patience to do this.

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive
 

“All Indian friends are trying their best to demonize both Pakistan and ISI” – Posted by Umair

Indians haven’t demonized the Pakistani establishment (mainly the military junta) & the ISI but rather, they have demonized themselves with their own demonic deeds over the years & at the present time. The only difference is that whereas earlier, it was only the Indians who knew about it & made noise about it, now literally the whole world seems to be talking & making noise about it.

“Just because India is big and spending money in Afghanistan does not mean Pakistan will sit back quitely. Pakistan has its regional interests and Pakistan has enough resources and will to nurture its interets”

What regional interests are you talking about? Keeping the Afghan people backward, impoverished & radicalized so that your immoral generals in Rawalpindi can control Afghanistan as a de facto colony?
And what resources are you talking about? With all due respect, your leaders are paying their bills with foreign aid & IMF funds, so what other secret ‘resources’ do you have?

“So India, get ready to face Pakistan, we will safeguard our regional interests in Afghanistan and elsewhere”

We’re ever ready to face you. We have faced you before & beaten you before. So please cut the macho melodramatic jingoistic rhetoric & try to live in the reality.

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan, we will safeguard our regional interests in Afghanistan and elsewhere.
- Posted by Umair

How about saving your national interest, sovereignty and dignity within your country?

US threatens airstrikes in Pakistan
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/wo rld/Afghanistan/article6850838.ece

Posted by Kamov | Report as abusive
 

.. elements in Pakistan for the brutal killing of former Afghan President Dr Najibullah in Kabul 13 years ago..

“I am of the firm belief that the same elements are again involved in destabilizing Afghanistan as part of their wish to establish their hold on the country,”

http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.a sp?id=200429

Posted by Ramin | Report as abusive
 

“Dr Najib was also a staunch supporter of regional cooperation and tried to keep good relations with Pakistan, but, unfortunately, the elements in Pakistan who were at the helm of affairs were interested in conquering Afghanistan rather to establish cordial relations as a neighbour”

“The “evil forces” killed Dr Najib in a very humiliating and brutal manner and entire Pakhtun nation could not forget that humiliation and will keep on the struggle against those anti-humanist forces,” he said.

Najibullah was forced to seek shelter at the UN compound in the capital, remaining there until he was tortured, castrated, then killed in September 1996 by the Taliban who captured Kabul.

http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.a sp?id=200429

Posted by Ramin | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan now seeks $500m from US in direct budgetary support to account for the FAT defense budget ..

http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.a sp?id=200434

Posted by Soman | Report as abusive
 

Hey Umair,
How about some freedom and a little plebiscite for our baluchis? They are humans and deserve some freedom and some democracy too!

“we were forced to become a part of Pakistan, literally on gunpoint”

“We need nothing from Pakistan. We want them to leave our land and release our people from their torture chambers”

“The Baloch have always been betrayed while they struggled politically”

This looks like the repeat of Bangladesh Story!
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn -content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/prov inces/04-some-balochis-support-the-sarda ri-system-others-direct-democracy-qs-10

Posted by Soman | Report as abusive
 

“All Indian friends are trying their best to demonize both Pakistan and ISI” – Posted by Umair

Plzzz .. give me some evidence when Pakistan and ISI were angels ..

Do angel create and shelter Taliban, AQ, LeT, JuD, JeM ….

Posted by Robin | Report as abusive
 

Now Bangladeshis poke fun at Pakistan!

GOD saved Bangladesh from the begging bowl!

http://nation.ittefaq.com/issues/2009/09  /29/news0376.htm

Posted by SOman | Report as abusive
 

As I had written here months ago, that if the Pak didn’t get off the fence the US would start to turn up the heat. It’s happening. The US wanting to drone Quetta is old news among those that know. There’s worse coming.

The Pakistanis still don’t seem to get it. The Obama administration and NATO is starting to view their failings in Afghanistan as Pakistan’s fault. There’s even frank talk sometimes suggesting that the west is actually at war with Pakistan. Virtually every diplomat, military officer and aid worker in the region considers the Pakistanis duplicitous. It the west fails, while there might be some partying in Pakistan, the West will most certainly make Pakistan pay for its perceived treachery for decades to come. And since Pakistan won’t be needed when the Afghan mission ends, there are quite a few options for the West (particularly the Americans) that could be employed to punish Pakistan.

Pakistanis have a choice to make here: they can choose to win the battle (kick the west out of Afghanistan) or win the war (secure their long term future by helping the west stabilize Afghanistan). They can’t have it both ways. Either they help the west or they don’t and risk being blamed for the next half century for every terrorist attack that happens in the West.

Posted by Keith | Report as abusive
 

The ethnic, religious extremist strife in AfPak region is of some importance to India undeniably. But India is not, and should not be bogged down in this mess.

India should continue its economic assistance to the people of Afghanistan with whom India has had a strong bond for so long. India should keep an eye on the intensifying Balochistan freedom struggle.

India should implement counter strategies to discourage punjabi army, ISI/terrorist networks from indulging in terrorism in India, but…..these things shouldn’t bog down India in AfPak.

Focus on economi development, strong strategic relationship with Afghanistan, alleviation of regional economic disparities within India should be high priorities.

Establishing good relations with Sindhi, Pashtun and Balochi brothers should be part of India’s strategy to fight the terrorist troubles created by punjabi army, and ISI/terrorist networks.

 

Soman, thanks for the article, Umair, here is a little excerpt from that article, posted here as a gift for your reading pleasure:

“Q. Please explain your calls for an independent Balochistan.

A. Firstly, I’d like to emphasise that we were a free people. In 1948, we were forced to become a part of Pakistan, literally on gunpoint. On top of that, Balochistan as a province and the Baloch as a people have not been treated fairly by successive governments. Still, we have tried to fight for our rights within the Pakistani parliamentary system, but every time we have been suppressed through military operations and other means. At this point, things have come to such a head that people are left with no choice but to seek complete independence from Pakistan.

Different methods are being employed in the process of an independent movement. There are political groups and then there are armed groups – albeit with a political objective – whose politics are fundamentally, if not solely, based on achieving the independence of Balochistan from Pakistan. Of course, a unification of such groups is a rather important factor in most independence movements and that is something I think Baloch independence organisations should also move toward. “

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive
 

As i sit here reading the comments, stories and the coming in of the baluchi situation of Pakistan i can only say i do feel weird to see this kind of post on a currently disconnected post concerning a completely different situation and i can only say, It is either the plan of Pakistans enemies because one thing is for sure their leader Bugti who got killed was a supported of Pakistan which can be found in many books so which ever person from baluchistan says we were forced at gun point is a liar or needs to get his facts straight.. other thing is that the coast of makran and gwadar interests both America and India as in the situation of an all out war or problem the Nato supplies and the best way in is from there, that is why in the first place all miscreants especially from afghanistan after getting beaten up in Swat are being put together in the Baluch region and i can tell everyone planning so .. ull get defeated .. bring it on if u have the balls

Another thing before i go .. i would like to tell all americans that 9 /11 was an inside job no matter what .. read http://www.cyberdera.com or watch the series arrivals.technocrazed.com and ull understand and all that is happening to america today is its own failing

 

Baluchistan is a region where land lords have not let them do anything .. whome these people know as gods .. I have worked in the government department of Administration and we had UN send us PC’s to send to Baluchistan and one of the leader said we dont need those neither we need schools give us money ..

i guess he needed to get guns and blow up some schools for his own reign on the leashed people. Other than that everyone needs some supports so did Pakistan … RAW .. ISI .. when did RAW do something good .. Has CIA ever done something good, i dont think so .. the fact is we all have been brain washed by American Media and their Jew Agenda nothing else. ISI didnt do anything good .. i dont want them to do anything good for India either cause they have never done anything good.

As long as baluchistan is concerned the day they get plebiscite from their own Feudal gods theyll be good to go and much better .. my father worked for SSGC can u imagince Bugti wanted 90 Pickups for himself .. he never let even one school operate .. was he an angel no

 

Myra, new topic:

Pakistan and its ISI not just state sponsors of terrorism, they are also minting counterfeit Indian currency, please see and read the links. This same money is the source for much terrorism. Dubai is an accomplice, where the counterfeit money gets laundered. It seems that this is the so-called “other source” of funds, if USA or IMF does not provide AID money.

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/pakistans-big -business-minting-indian-money/44937-3.h tml

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Scd-1jp3_ hw

http://www.india-forum.com/indian_politi cs/marxist-jihadi_criminal_enterprise.ht ml

“The amount of money allegedly bring to the coffers of Pakistan ISI and Jihadi terrorist groups is beyond imagination. The earnings from counterfeit Indian currency distribution also could be significant to Jihadi terrorists and subversive Islamic groups like NDF and SIMI. Money may be used to purchase weapons, fund subversive activities, and for slush funds for bribery and corrupting police and politicians.”

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive
 

Keith
“The Obama administration and NATO is starting to view their failings in Afghanistan as Pakistan’s fault. ”

-Maybe the Obama administration and NATO should stop supporting the corrupt narco-criminal government of Hamid Karzai in Afghanistan who has failed to gain support of his people there. Today Afghan trade in drugs is at the highest level, in the heavy presence of international forces there. Hamid Karzai cant even get out of his presidential residence in Kabul and is viewed as a stooge and puppet of the west.

Though you are using very threatnening words of punishing Pakistan and i do not want to respons to that. All I would state is that this blame game is not going to help anyone. Pakistan has cooperated so far, Pakistan has provided logistical support and ISI has apprehended most Al-Qaeda fugitives recently. Do you think an all out confrontation is a way forward, i would rather suggest negotiate your way out of this quagmire. Take Pakistan and other muslim nations and regional stake holders on board, only then you will succeed in Afghanistan. good luck!

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

There is a solution, one which the Generals fear above all, that Pakistan will disintegrate into 4 parts as Balochistan breaks free. Its this (alleged Indian) influence from Afghanistan reaching across the border that worries them so. One 30-year State Department veteran just smiled wryly reminding me that back in 2001 it was State that carried the message to the Mush that the US was prepared to carpet bomb Pakistan “into the stone age”.. As Bangladesh broke free in 1971, so can Balochistan by 2011..and Scind will have to make its own choice..

Posted by pravin banker | Report as abusive
 

@As I had written here months ago, that if the Pak didn’t get off the fence the US would start to turn up the heat. It’s happening. The US wanting to drone Quetta is old news among those that know. There’s worse coming.
- Posted by Keith

Keith: Pakistanis are not on the fence, they are with “them”. Pakistan never became a true ally on this mission. After 9/11, while US, through Northern alliance and few others groups, was fighting against Taliban, Pakistan continued to assist Talibans and other terrorists in Afghanistan. Musharraf at that time asked Bush for the safe exit of Pakistanis stuck in from Afghanistan. So thousands of Pakistanis ISI operators were airlifted from Konduz Afgh by running night time sorties from Gilgit and Chitral in pak over many days and among the passengers were Taliban+IMU+A-Q etc. terrorists who should have died in bunker busters than flying safely to Pakistan. Surprisingly US did not oversee that mission but later it was known that several wanted elements escaped. This later was dubbed by the frustrated US as “operation evil lift” and by some Pakistanis as “operation great escape”. With a long history of mentoring these terrorists, only US can trust Pakistan on this. Pakistan’s efforts have been counterproductive and there is no reason why they will not continue to do so in the future. The favorite excuse of their reluctance is the Indian factor. Pakistan expects India to fix the Kashmir deal/pack up its Army from Indo-Pak border and abandon the pro-Afghan development projects in Afghanistan, and then Pak will become an ally in true sense. There is no chance for India doing that simply because Pak loves and parties with lunatics from LeTs and JeMs and what not hyphenated gps and is praying for Mullah Omar/Taliban as the ruler of Afgh. All Pak has got to offer to Afgh is Mullah Omar and I have not seen anyone saying how pakistan will improve relations with Afghanistan and what could pakistan even theoretically give to Pakistan. But they will complain about India’s develeopemnt projects. US is complaining about Pakistan’s duplicity but what is not clear is when US says enough is enough, and have serious chat with Pakistan and ask them to shape up.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

Pak blogger,

“Another thing before i go .. i would like to tell all americans that 9 /11 was an inside job no matter what .. read http://www.cyberdera.com or watch the series arrivals.technocrazed.com and ull understand and all that is happening to america today is its own failing
- Posted by Umair”

–>What little credibility you had, you have just lost it. Since the humour here is beyond even discussing, let me leave you a thought:

-Marriot Hotel was an inside Pak ISI job.
-Benazir Bhutto assasination was an inside ISI job.
-Assasination attempts on Musharaff, were an ISI job.
-Attack on Sri Lankan Cricket Team was an ISI job.
-Thousands of Pakistani Police and Soldiers’ unfortunately lost in line of duty…ISI job.

I can go on and on…and by now you think that we are starting to sound nonsensical and conspiracy ridden, irrational cretin, right?, before you think that, go look into

Posted by Global Watcher | Report as abusive
 

Umair et al,

These aren’t my words. This is the stuff I’ve heard. I’ve had a hell of a time trying to convince those I meet that the situation is complex and that Pakistan’s interests must be taken into account.

That being said, Pakistan does not help its own case. India does. Indian aid in Afghanistan doesn’t just buy Afghan influence. It shows that India is out to make a positive contribution in the world. And that’s what military officers, diplomats, etc. come away with when they compare Pakistan’s contribution to the mission in Afghanistan. Sure Pakistan has arrested some AQ leaders. But it seems very curious to those of us in the west that it’s always the number 3 guy and never higher. Than there is what appears to be the truly bizarre and lackadaisical attitude of leaving large swaths of the Pakistan’s territory virtually ungoverned so that they become bases for Afghan insurgents. This is what has led to increased drone strikes in Pakistan. If Pakistanis can’t do the job, the CIA will. And with every drone strike, westerners are left with the impression that Pakistan either lacks the will or the ability to secure its own territory and shut down the safe havens of our enemies.

Nobody is suggesting that an all out war with Pakistan is about to happen. However, there is certainly a perception building that Pakistan is uncooperative and therefore should be coerced towards greater co-operation.

As for taking muslim nations on-board, the west has several onboard and some have even contributed troops to the Afghan mission. However, the West’s overriding concern is its own security. Suggesting that we simply agree to Pakistani terms (which really equates to asking for NATO to surrender to the Taliban) is not practical or acceptable since Pakistan is in no position to guarantee the security of the West (or even itself these days). It does not help that most terror plots are hatched in Pakistan or have a link to Pakistan these days. Would you trust your security to a country that has become a hotbed of terrorism? It’s not that NATO does not recognize Pakistan’s concerns in Afghanistan. However, Pakistan’s credibility and influence is severely limited by its actions and the success of its actions on the ground.

It’s unfortunate because Pakistanis deserve better. However, till Pakistan can show itself to be a truly reliable ally, it will be seen as an obstacle to peace and security in the region. And to the extent that Pakistan jeapordizes western interests in the region, the west will attack to remedy that. Hence the desire to drone Quetta.

Posted by Keith | Report as abusive
 

Keith you said:

“The Pakistanis still don’t seem to get it. The Obama administration and NATO is starting to view their failings in Afghanistan as Pakistan’s fault. There’s even frank talk sometimes suggesting that the west is actually at war with Pakistan.”

–>I have friend that did a mission in Afghanistan. He had stated to me that Afghans are sick and tired of Pakistan meddling in their own backyard, even 20 years after the Soviets left. Afghans, while are muslim, have a deep respect and friendship for the non-muslim Indians rebuilding their country and leaving a worthwhile legacy. The are frustrated that Pakistan has only given them chaos, militantism and used them and gave nothing redeeming.

Behind the scenes, rest assured, the tables and the deck is starting to stack against Pakistan. The Afghan Taliban that are killing NATO troops there and killing and beheading poor Afghans there, the Afghan Taliban leadership is living in Pakistan, where they are being protected by the Top Pakistani brass, protecting in the manner that the Pak establishment has made excuses for not attacking them. It should be a no brainer. As Pak. Brass keeps making excuses, NATO and U.S. are losing lives and burning billions of U.S. taxpayer dollars, because Pak is not fully co-operating with the U.S.

The time has come now for Barack Obama to make a style statement on Afghanistan and turn the sights towards Quetta and Waziristan in Pakistan. The Pakistan people need to be told that their masters in Uniform are not willing to take out the Al-Qaeda and Taliban, that threaten U.S. lives. Just recently an Afghan national in the U.S., trained by these same militants was caught plotting a massive terrorist attack on U.S. soil in New York.

If Obama feels that the Afghan mission is faltering and not being successful, he will fight tooth and nail to prove himself, his administration and his reputation.

In fact, during the election in 2008, he actually said that he would be willing to invade Pakistan, if the U.S. mission Afghanistan was failing and Pakistan did not co-operate fully on the war on terror.

The time for requiring permission anymore from Pak is over. It is time for the U.S. to start crossing the border and target militant sanctuaries and do the right thing and act quickly on actionable intelligence and do it without hesitation. No permission is required, there is a war against Militant-ism, this war knows no borders.

If Pakistan is duplicitous on the war on terror and if the Americans and the world feel safer surgically striking targets in Pakistan, wherever they need to, so be it, let it begin.

Posted by GW | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan never had any plans of wiping out terrorism. It sponsored terrorism to get at India. Unfortunately what they sponsored ended up spreading like an epidemic in all directions and is beginning to hurt them. They had hoped that the Americans will pick up the bones thrown across the fence and leave them alone to do their own thing. All Pakistani terrorism sponsorship has been aimed at India. But it has turned global and gone beyond their control. Even after the US invasion of Afghanistan, they have been fooling themselves with the belief that no one will disturb their Jihadist elements kept in cold storage for anti-India activities. They thought things had become clear and allowed Mumbai attacks to happen, with the hope that it will draw India into a conflict and create enough chaos in the region to drive out the Americans and their allies from their vicinity. But America forced them to accept the truth that Mumbai attackers were indeed from Pakistan and really pushed them against their wish. Then they twisted their arm to take on the Taliban with their military. Now they are going to zero in on Quetta. If the Americans are talking about it, it means they are going to do it. Obama has no interest in increasing troops right now. So the only option left is to take on the bad guys in Quetta where Pakistan has safely kept them. If they move them to Karachi, that will be drawing the US further inward. Balochistan getting its independence seems to be a strong possibility once the US gets Quetta cleaned out of Pashtuns and Taliban leaders from there.

The best thing for Pakistan to do is to make friends with India, change its mindset and give up sponsoring terrorism for good. If they fail to do that, they are doomed. Kashmir is not the problem here. It is this passionate dislike and hatred against India that is festering inside Pakistan and rotting it from within.

 

Keith, you wrote:

“Nobody is suggesting that an all out war with Pakistan is about to happen. However, there is certainly a perception building that Pakistan is uncooperative and therefore should be coerced towards greater co-operation.”

If that were indeed the case, how would you suggest Pakistan should be coerced? Does that not go to the heart of the current debate – how do you persuade Pakistan to turn against groups it once saw as “strategic assets” against India? And how do you do so in a way that does not undermine the civilian government?

And if the real debate is about Pakistan, do you need to keep troops in Afghanistan to maintain pressure on Pakistan?

I know there are no simple answers to all this but would be interested in your views.

Myra

Posted by Myra MacDonald | Report as abusive
 

Dealing with pakistan is mighty more complex than afghan, Because nobody obeys anything in Pak, the ISI is independent, the Pak army is idepenedent, then the landlords and the elected government. each of them function on their own terms, talking and coercing the elected government means nothing they don’t have any control over ISI(which is like the ultimate undercover terrorist organisation). ISI’s idealogy is to win a Mighty rival(not only India.. anybody they can’t win in a war ) by a thousand cuts(translate to terrorist strikes). Winning and transforming ISI is the key for US to win this war(without ISI.. hopefully AQ will be dust job).

Posted by katty | Report as abusive
 

Myra, you said to Keith:

“If that were indeed the case, how would you suggest Pakistan should be coerced? Does that not go to the heart of the current debate – how do you persuade Pakistan to turn against groups it once saw as “strategic assets” against India? And how do you do so in a way that does not undermine the civilian government?”

–>First of all Myra, the civilian government, is a thinly veiled facade for the Pak Military and Brass.

Unfortunately, you cannot have it both ways. Almost any action on the part of the U.S. will generate anti-US activity and work to undermine the civilian govt. The U.S. should start unilaterally destroying all Pakistani made militant “strategic assets”. The assets should be taken by surprise from many directions, at once, as this will leave them in a state of disarray and potentially even cripple them permanently.

The U.S. should not spare any sanctuaries and penetrate as deep as they need to, even to south Punjab, where many militant groups reside.

The time for walking on eggs shells is over. Fixing Pakistan to rid it of the Taliban leadership and “strategic assets” will require, quick, decisive action, bold action, with overwhelming firepower, as precisely as possible, to minimize innocent civilians.

As long as Pakistan keeps getting rent money from the U.S, they won’t do much, they would not dare challenge the U.S. in a military confrontation.

The Pak Army has been selling Pak sovereignty to Wahhabi terrorists for the last 60 years. Sovereignty is a myth.

Pakistani Army’s love affair with terrorism must be broken by any means possible. I don’t believe tickling their feet will lead to them giving up their love affair with terrorism.

Just to be clear, if the Pak army loses the Taliban as its strategic asset, it will use the Kashmiri militants against the U.S. and NATO. It is only a matter of time.

The longer the U.S. and NATO walk on eggs shells, the longer, the terrorist machine in Pakistan will keep consolidating and adapting and finding new sanctuaries and more people on all sides will suffer. The public in the U.S. after years will not want to stomach a protracted war.

It is time to finish things for good and put the Pakistani double gaming to an end. Let’s just see if the NATO and U.S. leadership can just for a moment, set aside political correctness and do the right thing.

Posted by GW | Report as abusive
 

Myra,

In the long term, the biggest threat to militant-ism and its membership is capitalism. When you introduce capitalism to Pakistan and Afghanistan, you will can bring Wal-Mart, McDonalds and Target and such consumer outlets.

If you have a population that is busy, has to pay the bills and mortgage, has to goto work, has to raise children, you will not have idle people, who are going around looking for work, or self-worth and joining militant groups. You will have a population that looks forward to fridays, resting on the weekend, cutting the lawn and planning their next vacation.

This democratic way of life is the greatest threat to the 7th century strategic assets that Pakistani state Agencies have been creating.

In the words of Benazir Bhutto, democracy is the best revenge.

Posted by GW | Report as abusive
 

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