Comments on: Pakistan and Britain: On exits and entrances Perspectives on Pakistan Thu, 01 Oct 2015 19:31:05 +0000 hourly 1 By: Rohit Sat, 03 Oct 2009 05:23:23 +0000 @ Umair

Again perturbed? I was wondering the uncompromisable source of inspiration for justice, righteousness… Law and order situation in Pakistan and what it has been doing in world by creating fertile ground for LeT, JeM, Al Quaeda, Talibani, JuD etc, and also for it’s minorities?

By: Mortal Sat, 03 Oct 2009 02:19:54 +0000 @Umair: “And the law and order in Pakistan is absolutely fine, this is a huge and resilient country”

The other day, I took a yellow cab from near by office bldg in midtown manhattan to go to a meeting in downtown. From the ID card of the cab driver laminated on the back panel, I figured out that he was Pakistani. I asked him where from Pakistan did he come & he said he was from Faisalabad. We started talking in Punjabi, amongst other things about how things were in Pakistan as he mentioned that he had recently visited Pakistan. I asked him about the law & order situation in Pakistan. Looking at me through the rear view mirror, he said that there was a saying in Pakistan for anyone involved in any legal matters “Vakeel ki karna hai, Judge hi kar lo” (translation: Why hire a lawyer, when you can hire a judge).

By: Mortal Fri, 02 Oct 2009 20:09:45 +0000 Mortal: chill out, i meant the dark agenda belongs to terrorists not India and Keith got my point.
– Posted by Umair

Sure you did, buddy. I believe you :)!

By: Umair Fri, 02 Oct 2009 18:50:54 +0000 Rohit,
As regards my source of inspiration for Pakistan, i will be surprised if you are an Indian and do not feel passionate about it. And the law and order in Pakistan is absolutely fine, this is a huge and resilient country.

Mortal: chill out, i meant the dark agenda belongs to terrorists not India and Keith got my point.

By: Mortal Fri, 02 Oct 2009 17:01:12 +0000 “But if Canada will discriminate against Pakistanis, then both Pakistan and Canada will loose. The only people laughing will be the ones who have a dark agenda, do i need to name them?” – Posted by Umair

Just like for everything else, instead of blaming your immigration problems on the host countries & the “dark agenda” of the Indians, why don’t you guys look in the mirror & take some responsibility?
Is it because of the “dark agenda” of the Indians & the racism of the west, that almost every terror attack in the west (successful or foiled) has been proven to have a Pakistani link?
Is that also the reason why Pakistan has become a global terror hub & #1 exporter of terror in the world?
If you do find the need to blame someone, it should be your immoral generals, who have radicalized your country & projected it as the terror capital of the world.

“Do not try to equate the situation with UK, the relationship there is very different. UK is Pakistan’s fomer colonial power once ruled the region”

This is a ridiculous statement. So just because UK once ruled Pakistan, Pakistani terror in the UK is justified? UK ruled more than half the world at some point or the other. Do you see people from the origin of those countries, plotting terror in the UK?
And why should the situation in UK not be looked at by Canada or US? In fact, I bet you that the lawmakers in the US, Canada, Australia etc are looking at the Pakistani problem in the UK & saying “Hell, we don’t want this mess in our country, so let’s prevent it while we can”.

I agree that there are many qualified & legitimately good Pakistanis who deserve better but instead of squarely blaming others, please do some introspection & tell your generals to clean up the mess in your country so that it is perceived differently, than it currently is.

By: GW Fri, 02 Oct 2009 14:19:55 +0000 Pak Blogger says:

“But if Canada will discriminate against Pakistanis, then both Pakistan and Canada will loose.”

“I want to ask you, how can Canada be selective in implementing immigration laws for Pakistani citizens? If someone from Pakistan qualifies under Canadian law to take up permanent residence in Canada, it is their right.”

–>You are wrong. The CSIS securities’ job is to look at ALL global events and trends, regarding terrorism. Even recently, there was Pakistani linked terrorism in Canada, known as the “Toronto 18″. There are also many Pakistani linked terrorists, like the recent Zazi, who was caught. The security establishment communicates with Interpol to be kept upto date from where terrorists are coming from. All these global Pakistani linked terrorists, how can Canada ignore what is happening? The Immigration service of any country has a duty to observe and act on all security trends to protect Canadians.

For many years, Canada was known as a terrorist’s sanctuary, not any more. ory/CTVNews


If the bulk of global terrorism is coming from Pak linked terror groups, are you saying that Canada should ignore that? What planet are you living on? For a lack of detailed information on an individual, on the basis of security and terror prevention, Canada has a right and a duty to protect its citizens and evaluate where an individual has lived, where they were born, where they worked their connections, and decide on an individual basis, if they are potential security risks.

Don’t you think Canadians would want people who are from a country that is constantly linked with terrorism? Many terrorist individuals who have immigrated to other countries, have squeeky clean records, yet managed to get through and cause carnage in their host countries.

What is unfair, is that so many countries have to put up with Pakistani linked AND Pakistani terrorism and try to protect their citizens from this and STILL get labelled as UNFAIR? This is not a “Dark Agenda”. It is the duty of each country to protect its citizens from terrorism.

If you feel this is all still unfair, as you drive by on the way to work and see the Pak Military and ISI HQ, those guys have been fueling terrorism for the last 20 years and the world is fed up and trying to protect itself. Those Pak agencies are to blame for the security blowback from other countries, that otherwise good, educated and well-meaning Pakistani’s have to deal with.

Take responsibility, the blame lies with Pak State agencies itself. Don’t think that after years of supporting the Taliban, helping AQ and training terrorists that there is not consequences. The result is every country wanting to deny Pakistanis VISAs, you can blame your army and ISI for that, as we have the duty and right to protect our own.

By: Keith Fri, 02 Oct 2009 13:41:35 +0000 * correction:

meant to say that an application can fail if the applicant cannot prove that he/she will not be a security threat.

By: Keith Fri, 02 Oct 2009 13:40:27 +0000 Umair,

Have a look at the link you posted and the various scenarios at the end. That gives you an idea of where we think Pakistan is heading. You’ll find scenario one to be extremely unlikely. And scenario three is the likely one but there is a very, very high risk of the worst case scenario (two) coming true. This is why we are concerned about Pakistan. And that dialog by the way included Pakistanis like General Masood (who is one of the most open and honest gentleman I have ever met) and Dr. Siddiqa. You will not that the nuanced scenario was put forward by General Masood, who also suggested that Pakistani support for anti-India activities was a mistake that had come back to bite Pakistan in its rear, and was harming its long term prospects.

By: Keith Fri, 02 Oct 2009 13:32:34 +0000 Umair,

I am fully familiar with that document, the people who drafted it and the conference that lead to it.

On your other points…

If you qualify sure you get a visa. However, there is no way every application qualifies. And one of the ways an application can fail is if the applicant cannot prove he/she is a security threat. Now I am not suggesting that CSIS (or any other agency) screens out all Pakistanis as security threats because of their nationality. However, you can be sure that in the post 9/11 world (where many Canadians were killed as well), Ahmed Ressam (though he was not Pakistani), the Toronto 18 (some of whom were Pakistani Canadians), etc. there is significantly more scrutiny of potential applicants to this country. And there is a particular emphasis on making sure they aren’t security threats. Applicants from countries of concern (Pakistan is not the only one) or even particular regions of a country (Kashmir, Indian North-East for India for example) are well screened.

As for the dynamic being different between the UK and Pakistan and Canada and Pakistan. You’re right. But the issue of being a former colonial power is only one. The other being that they have a million Pakistani-origin residents and that the majority of their terrorism concerns originate from Pakistan. While Canada has significantly better integrate Pakistani-origin immigrants, there is significant concern among all our government agencies, particularly the security ones (and not just CSIS by the way) about the growth of terrorist sympathies in the Pakistani Canadian communities. And in specific sub-communities. We don’t have problems with Ismailis or Ahmadis in Canada who are usually quite well to do here and well integrated. However, there is a growing concern about rising fundamentalism among mainstream Pakistani immigrants (as well as mainstream Middle Eastern immigrants). From this point of view, we consider ourselves in the same boat as the UK. We are open multi-cultural societies who take in immigrants from all over the world. We’d like them to leave their baggage at home.

It has not happened in the UK. Worse is that immigrants will use an excuse like, “its acceptable because they were the former colonial power or its okay because of the war in Afghanistan and Iraq.” Can you imagine an Afghan refugee or an Indian immigrant in Pakistan blowing up something and then saying its acceptable because Pakistan is meddling in Afghanistan or Kashmir? You would deem them traitors. We’d like to get off that boat before we get into the same choppy waters that the UK is in. We are doing our best to integrate our Pakistani immigrants. And we’ve done much better than most western countries on that count. However, part of our response has been to mandate our security agencies to ensure that we don’t take in applicants who might become potential terrorist threats. This is to keep the country safe and to prevent communities like that of Pakistani Canadian from succumbing to foreign originated extremism. It’s not just terrorists. We don’t want those who will stir up hate in our communities either.

By: Rohit Fri, 02 Oct 2009 12:45:26 +0000 Umair so gets perturbed by anything slightly hinting at anything unethical and unlawful against Pakistan and Pakistanis that it makes me wonder the source of inspiration… Law and order situation in Pakistan… eh?