Insurgency in Pakistan: what next?

October 16, 2009

After last weekend’s attack on the headquarters of the Pakistan Army in Rawalpindi, one of the questions being asked with a rather troubling air of inevitability was: where next? That question was answered on Thursday with a string of attacks across the country, including three in Lahore.

So now, what next?

Many expect the attacks to continue, as militants based in the country’s heartland Punjab province unleash a wave of violence ahead of a planned military offensive against the Pakistani Taliban in their stronghold in South Waziristan.  Few are prepared to predict either how much worse they could get, nor exactly how Pakistan will respond.

The blogger “Londonstani” at Abu Muqawama writes that, “the media, foreign and domestic, seems to be split between two narratives: ‘Militants are getting stronger and we are stuffed’ or ‘This is the last gasp of militants who are about to be ground to pulp by the army’”.

He argues however that “the downfall of militancy of this kind is built into its success. It can only really thrive when it is seen as a by-product of unpopular government policies, foreign occupation etc. But when the militancy gets powerful enough to pull off spectaculars like the operations today in Lahore, that’s when the local population see it as a threat in its own right. When it starts looking like a realistic possibility (even if pretty distant) that Taliban types might soon be telling you how to live, ambivalence towards their activities falls away.”

But in a column in Pakistan’s Dawn newspaper, Nadeem Paracha writes that it may yet take a while for Pakistanis to drop their ambivalence. 

“What is it that makes these terrorists so sure and confident about themselves? It’s simple. We do!” it says.

“It is the sheer hesitancy that we show towards fully realizing the grave dangers these terrorists hold,  and a weird, inexplicable sense and understanding of reality that most Pakistanis look to be suffering from, that gives these terrorists the psychological edge and opening; providing them as convoluted a justification to commit acts of barbarism in the fine name of God, as is our own habit of ending up actually recognizing their many deeds as being either a sympathetic socio-political outcome, or, of course, a wild conspiracy by our many (largely imagined) enemies lingering on our borders.”

No one is suggesting that Pakistan is about to be overrun by Islamist militants. But what is clear is that there has been a step-shift in the nature of the insurgency in Pakistan. This is more than mere geography, as the violence spreads increasingly from the tribal areas bordering Afghanistan into the heartland of the country. It is more even than the rising frequency of attacks. What is perhaps most worrisome is that there appears to be a coherence to the attacks that has not yet been fully understood.

Does the apparent mayhem mask a clear strategy on the part of the militants which goes beyond targetting security forces wherever they can as a pre-emptive strike against the planned offensive in South Waziristan?  Which militant organisations are involved among the Punjab-based groups and the Pakistani Taliban, or Tehrik-e-Taliban? And how does the attempt to destabilise Pakistan fit with the situation in Afghanistan?

Britain’s Guardian newspaper says in an editorial the implications of the attacks over the last week or so are profound.

“Militant attacks of this sophistication and scale represent more than just a pre-emptive strike against a long-heralded army offensive in South Waziristan …  A new front has been opened. It is a battle that the army cannot afford to lose, because it is being fought in the Punjab itself, the very heart of the Pakistani state.”

Security analysts argue that historically insurgencies have failed far more often than they have succeeded, although there might be months, or years, of  “irregular warfare” (in the case of Pakistan this has meant suicide bombings and fedayeen attacks).

If you wanted to apply that framework to what is happening right now in Pakistan, you would need to understand both the nature of the state and the nature of the insurgents. Much has been written about the state in Pakistan. But how much do we really know about the insurgents? Until we work that out, it seems unlikely that anyone can answer with any confidence the question of what next.

(Reuters photos: soldiers and police in Lahore)

65 comments

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Myra,

The latest wave of bloody reprisal attacks on Pakistan in the last 24 hrs have shown that Pakistani cities do not have a credible security or police force to protect the cities.

It is time that the army re-allocates those 700,000 Army into the cities. Police in Pakistan are corrupt, underfunded and inept at best in dealing with insurgencies and militants and are outgunned.

It seems like the militants are determined to destroy Pakistan from within. They, the militants, are reaping the benefits of an army, hellbent on maintaining enmity with India. They have and are using this fictitious enmity with India to their advantage and taking ferocious bites out of the heart of Pakistan.

The Taliban presence requires that the Pak Army train in urban warfare and re-allocate into the cities, as that is where the battles will be conclusively fought with the militants, not in SWAT and WAZIRISTAN. The focus needs to shift more the cities and securing them.

As Indians, we hope that all Paks remain safe from these militant monsters. No Pakistani is safe anymore in the cities.

Posted by GW | Report as abusive

Myra,

From yesterday’s attacks in Lahore, it has become quite clear that the Taliban & Al Qaeda have indeed combined forces with the Punjabi groups like LeT, JeM, JeV etc. who were created & nurtured by the Pakistani army & who are still considered by many Pakistanis as allies in just causes, including fighting India, US and Shiite Muslims. Today, these punjabi groups have become intricately entwined with the Taliban & AQ and pose an existential threat to the Pakistani state.

If Pakistan has to survive, the entire Pakistani leadership (the one’s in uniforms & the one’s in suits) will have to stop being vague about terrorism with the Pakistani people & clearly tell them that they have to unite & fight all terrorists, whether they are foreigners of AQ or home grown punjabis of LeT & JeM. Instead of churning out the blame for every attack on ‘foreign hand’ & conspiracy theories through their propaganda machinery, the Pakistani army will have to come out & accept that home grown terrorists are an existential threat to Pakistan today & go after them with the same vigor that they go after foreign terrorists. Unless they do this & do it very soon, I’m afraid nothing can stop Pakistan’s complete implosion.

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive

Blame it on India and let the terrorists go back to business as usual!

That’s exactly what Pakistan did after the attack on Sri Lankan cricket team in Lahore! The same guys then attacked army GHQ in Rawalpindi and killed more people!

Posted by Sameer | Report as abusive

It does not end there, but continue:

Blast in Peshawar cantonment; 11 killed, 11 injured.
An apparent car suicide bomb blast killed 11 people and injured at least another 10 in the Peshawar cantonment area on Friday.
(DAWN, 16/10/2009)

Problem is that these increased attacks in Pakistan can indirectly increase India’s vunerability to terror attacks. Despite being the world’s largest democracy, the USA will not sell high grade weapons to India due to its ‘special relationship’ with Pakistan. It will also prevent other nations (Israel) from selling weapons to India where it owns the patents on technology. This only leaves the USA companies as potential suppliers, but even they are made to drag their feet by the US government.

The guards at Mumbai station had World War II weapons against the attackers. I just do not understand the problem here when India HAS the money to buy, yet they won’t sell. It took years for India to buy Hawker training jets from the UK.

Is India deliberately being placed in a vunerable position so it cannot defend itself? Then after a terrorist attack only to be told by the US, ‘Now, now, there, there. Sorry for your loss, but retaliation is not the answer, you must talk to the people who attacked you.’

Posted by bulletfish | Report as abusive

Next?

Back to the old ways.
Pak army to fund/support another militant group with arms/US$$$ to fight against the Taliban. Once Taliban destroyed, use the groups as “Strategic assets” and the cycle continues.

Terror as a state strategy has never worked! Pak never learned it. The Honeymoon is over. Good luck.

Posted by Praveen | Report as abusive

The Taliban don’t seem to realise what damage they are doing to their country.They must be very very stupid people.They are not harming anyone but their own citizens.They Pakistani citizens should rise up against these criminals

Myra,

The recent incidents in Pakistan are cause of great worry for us in India , primarily due to reasons as under:
a) These terrorists after meeting their target in Pakistan, will turn their focus towards in India, and the terrorists led by Meksud has already threatened to launch action against Indian targets .

b) These terrorists can attack on high security military target deep inside Pakistan, who will guarantee the safety of nuclear weapons in Pakistan

International community must address these immediate concern .

Posted by Manish | Report as abusive

Pakistanis are realizing for the first time about the nature of the monster their military establishment has bred over the years for its anti-enemy activities. Many Pakistanis did not care when these monsters were unleashed on India. I have even observed admiration for the criminals who slipped into Mumbai and killed innocent people. Even there Pakistanis were ridiculing the Indian security system instead of sympathizing with those who were affected. Now I wonder what they think of their security system.

Terrorism is evil. Civilized nations should never encourage terrorism and ideological warfare. This is a monster worse than even nuclear weapons. At least the nukes stay in storage until taken out for bombing. Terrorism based on ideology only grows in proportion with time and begins to consume everything on its path.

Pakistan will be able to defeat the terrorist elements inside their tribal belts. But it has spread far too wide into the hearts of many there who have been brain washed by religious ideology. That is going to be near impossible to erase. With economy in shambles, no infrastructure for any growth, no foreign investment, backwardness in education, health, agriculture and industrial sectors, this monster can only thrive as misery expands. The rich will emigrate to UK and other Western nations, leaving the poor behind. It is this future scenario that Pakistanis and the rest of the world should worry about. This problem can escalate exponentially if not addressed by the world powers. This is where help has to be focused. Pakistan’s military establishment is a huge barrier to that effort.

India should send out emissaries to Pakistan and see how India can help this terrorist infested nation. There are lot of good people inside Pakistan who do not deserve this kind of life. This way they will get to see that India really is not the enemy and they will develop the voice necessary to stand up to their military establishment which has destroyed their nation in the name of protecting it, while in reality was entrenching itself in order to survive as the only power in the region.

Meanwhile, a Taliban group also sent two letters to the Lahore Press Club – one on October 12 and the other on October 14 – warning that if the media “does not stop portraying us as terrorists … we will blow up offices of journalists and media organisations”.
Kinda like “firings will continue till morale improves” :-)

The comments on the Londonstani’s CNAS article are most enlightening. It’s heartening to know that there are Pakistanis who can get past the paranoia and undertake some serious, honest analysis. Too bad, most of them don’t live in Pakistan.

Posted by Keith | Report as abusive

Let’s face it: There is a civil war in Pakistan.
The central government is weak, and doesn’t seem capable of dealing with the situation, which proves that even nuclear powers can become very unstable.
The situation will get much worse, and probably come out of control if the regime in neighboring Iran gets the bomb.

Posted by yr | Report as abusive

It seems that the Pakistan Army Government in Power is looking to Shabaz Sharif as the next possible civilian stooge to cover the facade that Zardari is currently holding. It also looks like that the Punjabi Mafia in Pakistan is seeking to kick out Zardari.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/83 09532.stm

Punjabi Mafia does not care about the civilians getting butchered. They care first about their image and their business model, that being enmity with India and a protracted fight against militants to get and siphon as much cash as they can, from the U.S. and all other parties.

I predicted this months ago on a blog, Myra, that when militants start striking in the heart of Punjab, that is when the start of Pakistan’s collapse will have begun. I believe that moment will soon be here.

It is still not too late to reallocate resources from Kashmir and bring the Army to the cities. Selfishly looking after themselves first, the Army does not care if avg. Pakistani’s are getting butchered. They care about their image and bu$ine$$ first.

Pakistan is slowly becoming a Somalia before our eyes.

Posted by GW | Report as abusive

Myra,

The fights that happen at Pak-Afghan border and the terrorists that come into Pakistan is because of RAW agents of India. It is not just them, its also the corrupt military of Pakistan which is so much involved in drug dealing at the border. And where does this drug go? India. Regardless, Pakistani army is corrupt. The terrorists are all comming from Afghanistan and into Pakistan. Now they are joining forces with the punjabi groups with similar goals. This is effecting the innocent civilians living in the country. Zardari should take a stand now and do something about it. It is about time. He is the president.

Posted by Great One | Report as abusive

I think it’s found itself in a catch-22 situation now. On one hand it’s receiving so much aid from the US and is entangled with US-agenda, at the same time it cannot afford not to provide some support to the militants. Thought this video sums it up quite well and talks about US-Pakistan relations too. http://www.newsy.com/videos/pakistan_att acks_what_it_means_for_the_u_s.

Posted by metakid | Report as abusive

Dear Myra,

It is interesting, but also amusing simply because it seems that many still don’t really understand the militant mindset. When one doesn’t fear death and is inspired by martyrdom then that individual can pull of anything. This is the beauty of life as well as its hell.

Posted by Jag | Report as abusive

Next Pakistan loses total control!
Next Balochistan gets freedom!
Next Gilgit-Baltistan gets freedom!

Posted by Andy | Report as abusive

The so-called “long-awaited” offensive against the Taliban in South Waziristan is, in military terms, a complete joke! It is calculated to provide such advance warning to Pakistan’s so-called enemies as to enable them to temporarily leave the region, thus allowing the Pakistani Army to declare “victory” without incurring many casualties – either Army or Taliban. The problem with this kind of strategy is that the goal of the offensive should be to kill as many insurgents as possible. Of course, the Pakistani Army doesn’t want to do this because the Taliban has historically served its long-term strategic objectives.

Absolutely nothing will be accomplished by this offensive, except to provide ammunition to the government of Pakistan to use in its continuing successful campaign to extort billions from the United States.

The bottom line is that a MILITARY strategy against our enemies is not the most effective way to win this conflict. We need to realize that our entire foreign policy in the Middle East is fundamentally flawed and does not serve our long-term interests. We need to re-think who we want to support in the region and embrace a strategy that can win. Otherwise, we’re just wasting lives and money in an ignorant lunge to failure.

Posted by Smoz | Report as abusive

While it is commendable of how involved indians are in pakistani politics it is worth noting that india itself has an out of control maoist insurgency in its backyard. Also, it is worth saying that the security situation in Pakistan is just as bad as in India and any terrorist can find easy targets who are ultimately the poor people working to make a living.

The Pakistani army is noted by all western nations for its efficiency, professionalism, and experience. What was missing was the commitment to deal with these foreigners and their brainwashed local followers. It isnt a secret that America and Nato are expressing sighs of relief at the pakistani army finally tackling the wazirstan problem which (they think) will ultimately save the Americans in Afghanistan.

But the truth is America’s problems in afghanistan will not end until they leave, infact they will get worse. Most of the militants will run off into afghanistan to save there lives. Also, India’s problems will also never end as long as they hold on to jammu kashmir. The ISI will just make new organisations–btw there are plenty of militant organizations left which are still in government control. The only difference will be that hundreds of poor people will lose there lives and will be displaced.

The only thing that will resolve these problem is diplomacy and the exit of outside forces and occupations in places where they are not welcome.

Posted by Aslam | Report as abusive

Pakistan is sacrificed 2000 soldiers and 2.200 civilians far more than what USA had lost in 9/11 attacks and the war in Afghanistan, but still USA and their media says Pakistan has not done enough. Has anyone in the Government stood up to state this fact to the western media and what Pakistan has suffered by supporting this war on terror?

Pakistan army has beaten the Taliban in Swat and Malakand division the only settled area where they occupied which is an area of approx 100 kilometers.

There is only speculation that Pakistan Army is divided within on this war. Would they be stupid enough to get themselves be killed and side with their enemy? They writers also miss the positive side that the people of Pakistan are with the army completely. They also fail to miss the point that Pakistani people are highly moderate as all religious parties have been wiped out in all the elections and this time they haven’t got a single seat even in Fata (tribal areas) their supposed main stronghold!!

My question is what has NATO achieved so far since year 2001. While Pakistan is about to attack the heart of Taliban and destroy them completely in Waziristan.

Posted by ratee | Report as abusive

The Pakistan government should accept U.S. support to secure their nuclear weapons until the opperations against the militants are no longer needed. The U.S. Marines are the best for protecting special and nuclear weapons. In the long run, the added protection would calm the nerves of China and Russia who will not accept nukes flying in their regions. In fact, If the U.S. protects the nuclar weapons the Chinese and Russia are less likely to launch a first strike on Pakistan. Additionally, Our Troops could help the Pakistani Army in killing, capturing, and imprisoning the criminal elements in their country.

Posted by Dallasman | Report as abusive

for those saying pakistan hasnt done enough, its not Pakistan who is dragging their feet to deploy more to afghan, thus empowering the taliban and allowing them to gain ground…is it?

its also not the pakistanis who are sending drones over and not caring how many civilians are ‘accidently’ killed.

the blame in this case, and in many others that Americans/other NATO allies seem to pin on others, rests on our hands too. not only the select country we choose to blame/condemn this month or the month after.

@dallasman,

so given U.S. was weak post-9/11 and even today is most likely incapable of protecting given someone with intent wanted to attack, should we then also allow foreigners, lets say the russians/chinese to look after our nukes?

Posted by Rob | Report as abusive

Mr. Ratee: “Pakistan is sacrificed 2000 soldiers and 2.200 civilians far more than what USA had lost in 9/11 attacks and the war in Afghanistan, but still USA and their media says Pakistan has not done enough. Has anyone in the Government stood up to state this fact to the western media and what Pakistan has suffered by supporting this war on terror?”

When a military engages in a war, soldiers do die. It is part and parcel of a war operation. Pakistan is not special. Americans have lost their soldiers too. This is not America’s war, remember. Americans were dragged to this region by your country’s Al Qaeda friends in 2001. So blame them for losing your soldiers. UK has its military because the Al Qaeda operatives bombed London. Be happy that Pakistan is at least fight on the American side. Everyone knows that the entire Islamic militancy problem in this world has a strong backing by the Pakistani military establishment. Had the Americans decided to target Pakistan and Afghanistan at the same time in 2001, your country would have lost probably half its soldiers by now. Be happy that the toll has been kept to a minimum out of goodwill.

Myra,
I will not respond to allegations that PA is conducting this operation as a ruse to attract more funds from the West and instead talk more of the PA operation in SWA and the likely outcome:
1. PA has been corralling the foreign adventurers and their locally hired thugs for months to have them concentrated in this area. They have succeeded largely in this endeavour. The cordon is complete and a very few will be able to escape. Contrary to some hearsay PA have vowed not to allow them to breach the seige. The Uzbeks and Arabs will fight to the very end but the hired local thugs will wave their white bandannas almost immediately after the unrelenting infantry assault begins.
2. Lack of fuel and food in the harsh winters will aggravate the insurgents’ problems.
3. The three-pronged assault by an army well-trained in set-piece attacks, with heavy artillery shelling and precision munitions used by the PAF and the US drones in support, will overwhelm the guerrilla defenders who will have no clue how to respond to it. They will soon panic.
4. How to deal with thousands of local thugs surrendering will be another problem. It will take a brigade strength just to take care of that.
5. The Foreigners were the fuse in this insurgency bomb and once the fuse is removed the insurgency will die down.
6. The funds reaching the insurgents is mostly pocketed by the leaders and foot soldiers follow them out of loyalty and for food. Once the leaders are gone the supply/loyalty chain also dissipates dealing the Coup de grace to their morale.
7. Once the first phase of this operation succeeds the pro-government lashkars will be convinced of PA’s success and participate in their tens of thousands.

In my estimation the main strongholds will be overrun in a week’s time. This may take another week if the army wants to be more cautious and soften them up a little more. Once the foreigners are taken out the over-all situation prevailing in NWFP & Punjab will improve almost immediately. Total PA casualties (killed and wounded) will not exceed 250.

Posted by Mansoor Siddiqui | Report as abusive

Taliban vs Pakistan Army, can’t we just call it ‘Friendly Fire’.

Posted by nick..j | Report as abusive

Situation is Pakistan proves that if the state nurtures rogue elements & trains them to inflict damage to its neighbour (India); the ruffians will one day turn against you. The Islamist terrorists were for decades nurtured by the ISI & now they are killing Pakistan civilians & security forces day after day. So who is the ultimate loser? India or Pakistan? Americans looked the other way when India had time & again raised the issue of support of terror by a section of the Pakistan state. Now boys of the U S army are being killed & maimed by these same terrorists who could have been crushed by a joint India/USA relationship which never happened. USA gives military hardware to the Pakistan state which is handed to the terrorists by the ISI to kill US army personnel & Pakistanis. The US administration knows this very well.

It’s encouraging to read that Indians are sympathizing with the plight of Pakistani citizens in this terrorist onslaught.

But I would like to answer KP Singh who has said that Pakistanis did not care about the plight of Indian victims of the Mumbai massacre – They certainly did care and were grieved by the loss of life. True, they at first did not believe that the terrorists were from Pakistan, but still they felt very sorry for the victims.

All this shows the human face of common people everywhere whether from India or Pakistan or anywhere.

Posted by Alethia | Report as abusive

Forget Trashcanistan, Iran, North Korea………..
WHATEVER it takes, their is NO WAY Pakistan can be allowed to be over run by the Insurgents.
Not a Nuclear powered nation.
If it means turning the place into a Prison Camp, it will need to be done.
Pakistani’s who are ambivalent to this threat, are in denial, and I do not mean THE NILE.

Posted by Doszap | Report as abusive

Pakistani operation in Waziristan has begun. The militants are trapped, unless they have quietly slipped out the region already when the military was preparing for the offensive. They might find it hard to run into the Afghan side of the Durand line due to the presence of the US and its allied troops.

But one strategy that they might use will be to draw India into a conflict. If they want to cause confusion to the military offensive, they can stage suicide attacks or Mumbai style operations inside Indian metros, which will mobilize Indian military for a decision action. This means, Pakistan will have to pull back its military from South Waziristan and rush back to the Eastern border to fight the Indians.

The militants organizations will kill two birds in one stone this way – they get to push the Pakistani military away from their stronghold and unite everyone against a common enemy. Jihadi elements inside the ISI and PA might try for a nuclear attack against Indian targets to make this turn of tide permanent. Groups like LeT, HUJ etc should be working on these attempts now with help from some elements within PA and the ISI.

India should double up its vigil and start flying patrols across the coast and border areas. And they must track and diffuse any attacks on metros. And the government should do everything to hold back retaliation. Any retaliation on our part will change the course of action in South Waziristan.

This the time for the entire region to hold strong and wait for the completion of the operation. Let the PA finish off the militants there for good. Do not allow them to deflect off the attempt by drawing India into the conflict.

The US, of all countries, should help India and other countries in the region in providing intelligence and help to thwart any attempts by LeT/ISI/HuJ/PA elements to draw India into a bloody conflict. China is already rattling India from one side. This might mean that there is some back pinching offensives in the works, in case India gets drawn into the conflict. Indians must be very careful not to lose their minds and know the overall goals.

In time, Waziristan offensive will have been shown to be of little effect. It is too bad that Pak Army makes such large public announcements before the offensives, which allows all the hardcore militants to see other sanctuaries.

The militants are already in the cities and there militantism will grow in the underbelly of the cities like a fungus and mold.

Waziristan is one year too late. It is time to take internal security much more seriously in pakistan. Time to redeploy Kashmiri Pakistani Soldiers into the cities. Otherwise, the carnage is going to continue.

Until Militant leaders are either caught or killed, all of these offenses will be seen only as a show and lacking integrity, despite Pakistan Army loses. Time will show if Pakistani Army and ISI are hiding their proxy war militant business assets for deep storage or actually catching and defeating them.

The world is watching to see if Pakistan is honest. Integrity is built over time, not over one operation or two operations such as SWAT or Waziristan. Show us, prove it to us and we may believe you.

Pakistan has much further to go, before the world trusts in it again.

Posted by GW | Report as abusive

Who cares what goes on in Pakistan? Those people, like the Israelis and Palestinians, have been fighting for thousands of years and will keep fighting for thousands more. To hell with them; let them kill each other. The United States has no business there.

Posted by Mufaso | Report as abusive

These offensive are temporary on the other side of the border it is a long term occupation, the movement across the border needs to be stopped, mining the areas is not a solution as they will did them up and use them as IED’s. It does not matter how hard the Pakistani’s push until their are enough outpost on the Afghan side of the border they will decamp the area rather than fight. I have though about this long and hard and situations like the US found themselves with their base almost being overrun in such an environment calls for the use of chemical weapons such as mustard gas. I see little difference in morality between using white phosphorous on the enemy disproportionate air power and artillery in such AO’s in which the civilian population is not a factor. Drops enemy activity in those areas which then stops the infiltration across the border which is why those outposts are built in the first place, it requires less assets, less casualties, that way the fact that they shoot at you yet you cannot see the enemy is no longer an issue. If the threat from these terrorists warrants us to be in country and victory is an imperative then I see little choice than to use such weapons against the enemy. It worked for Burma, and turn the war for the Junta.

Posted by Smith | Report as abusive

Pakistan is paying for nurturing militancy since the days of Gen Zia -Ul-Haque. They thought that militancy would be an ideal way to defeat India in war since they could not do it conventionally. They nurtured hatred, destroyed the meaning of Islam by equating it with terror. They are now reaping what they sowed.
For the good of the world however they must now win against terror and then as a nation must be controlled from following such policies in future. They must be kept under UN Control till they can convince the World that they are a responsible state and not a rogue state.

Posted by YVR Vijay | Report as abusive

Day in and Day out we hear of the sheer callousness of the Army and other security agencies in stopping these attacks, from one security lapse to the other!!
Atleast the good thing is they are targeting the security forces not quite the ordinary civilians although as I read and hear there have been instances where they have attacked the civilians.The army should be made to pay of what its officers have done for the country by supporting these people in the past.I believe now we should drop our ambivalence and shut all these groups, deweaponize all the tribal areas nomatter what their customs are( weapons are their customs I have heard this crap since I was 2 years old) and declare the constitution of Pakistan throughout the country. Moreover, all the Kashmiri groups etc should also be labelled as terrorists and we should move against all. Atleast this will placate the Indians as well besides we need to arrest and put to trial all these so called freedom fighters!!
What will we achieve of being ambivalent , my countrymen? Over the past 50 years we have achieved nothing so lets change that and atleast accept what is wrong and see what we achieve. We also need to charge the people who were responsible for the Mumbai incidents, if the military thinks it cant extradite them to India then publicly execute these morons and show it to the world and people in Pakistan that if anyone engages in anything against humanity, if it is against India or any other country, then they will have to pay!!

Posted by Suleman Maniya,Göteborg,Sweden | Report as abusive

America is bending itself backwards to ensure that the area is cleared of armed militants determined to destabilize the region. The criticism against America is therefore not justified. Pakistani and Afghan leaders need to do more. Coordinating their military strategies with America would go a long way in checking Taliban and al Qaeda dominance. The strangle-hold which these terrorist groups have is very strong and frightening. Give America the credit it is due especially when the Americans are spending so much to rid the region of evil terrorists.

What is happening in Pakistan right now is a civil war- it is war between a government that takes it’s orders from the US and Mujahideen fighters who are strongly opposed to US interference in Muslim lands. The Pakistan government (starting from dictator Musharraf’s time) has been ordered to use force against people who do not go along with Washington’s agenda- remember Red Mosque massacre and bombing of maddressas. Then the US ordered it’s Pakistan stooges to attack Swat and Warizistan. Mujahideen has been reacting with force to these US orchestrated attacks. Until such time when Pakistan government decides to govern in the interests of people of Pakistan instead of American interests there will be no peace. All sides, above all the US, needs to stop shooting and start talking.

Posted by MLK | Report as abusive

This region will not see peace till Pakistan is denuclearized.

Posted by Ali | Report as abusive

@In my estimation the main strongholds will be overrun in a week’s time. This may take another week if the army wants to be more cautious and soften them up a little more. Once the foreigners are taken out the over-all situation prevailing in NWFP & Punjab will improve almost immediately. Total PA casualties (killed and wounded) will not exceed 250.
- Posted by Mansoor Siddiqui

—-Can you or anyone comment on the civilian casualties considering the nature of Army attack against the terrorists?

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

nick.j: :Taliban Vs Pakistan Army, can’t we just call it friendly fire?”

Sincere advice: Stay at least a hundred miles away! There is no place for couch warriors/potatoes in there. Stay warm.

Posted by Mansoor Siddiqui | Report as abusive

Pakistan Army advance towards South Waziristan, the town of Kotkai is siezed while 60 millitants killed. On Friday a high level meeting took place at Prime Minister House Islamabad and Gen. Kayani briefed civilian leadership on national security. The go ahead was given for South Waziristan offensive, certainly Pakistan’s civilian and military leadership is united and public is strongly supporting the Army and Police services who are fighting back and gaining ground against millitants.

The fact that Pakistan has absorbed a sudden wave of attacks and launched a major offensive against millitant strongholds is reflective of the strength of Pakistani state. The nuclear weapons remain as secure as before, the Army continues to enjoy widespread support in the public. So called experts like David Kilcullen long ago had predicted the collapse of Pakistani state within six months, here is Pakistan alive and well fighting its enemies at every front. The Army is conducting the Waziristan offensive with utmost care, which increases public support and decreases the levels of insurgency. Surely, all main indicators are positive. Lets not jump to conclusions, while poeple outside might get an impression that a civil war is underway in Pakistan. As per the situation on ground everything is and everything will be under control.

What next? time will tell.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

@What will we achieve of being ambivalent , my countrymen? Over the past 50 years we have achieved nothing so lets change that and atleast accept what is wrong and see what we achieve. We also need to charge the people who were responsible for the Mumbai incidents, if the military thinks it cant extradite them to India then publicly execute these morons and show it to the world and people in Pakistan that if anyone engages in anything against humanity, if it is against India or any other country, then they will have to pay!!
- Posted by Suleman Maniya,Göteborg,Sweden

Suleman Maniya: As usual Indians admire you for your viewsbut you belong to trace minority of pakistanis. Even the so-called “Mr 10%” Zardari called Pakistan-based anti-India terrorists as “terrorists” but he was asked to shut up. Are the remaining Pakistanis even worse than Zardari?

But I tell you this, Pakistanis will be forced to drop ambivalent nature since certain Punjab-based terrorists are already collaborating with Taliban in recent attacks and more will join. Finishing Pak Taliban but not Afgh-Taliban or finishing certain Punjab terrorists but not the other is inherently flawed.

Is there any pakistani who can answer Suleman’s call and I repeat that: “What will we achieve of being ambivalent, my countrymen?”?

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Mansoor Siddiqui and other Pakistanis:

Knowing that the terrorists do collaborate with each other and help each other, do you think compartmentalization of terrorists by Pakistan will really lead to wiping out the terrorists? This is not to say that Pakistan declare war against all terrorists simulatenously.

Posted by ra | Report as abusive

Mansoor Siddiqui and other Pakistanis:

Knowing that the terrorists do collaborate with each other and help each other, do you think compartmentalization of terrorists by Pakistan will really lead to wiping out the terrorists? This is not to say that Pakistan declare war against all terrorists simulatenously.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

“Day in and Day out we hear of the sheer callousness of the Army and other security agencies in stopping these attacks….” – Posted by Suleman Maniya,Göteborg,Sweden

Well said, Suleman Maniya! It’s time for the Pakistani leadership & Pakistani people to stop being vague about terrorism & fight all kinds of terror groups unitedly & vigorously, regardless of whether they are the Pushtuns of Taliban, Arabs of Al Qaeda or Punjabis of Lashkar-e-Taiba. If the Pakistani army tries to save anyone for ‘strategic depth’ against it’s neighbors, it’ll spell doom for Pakistan. Lets just hope that they’ve learned from past mistakes!

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive

The fact that Pakistan has absorbed a sudden wave of attacks
Posted by Umair

Absorbed? Are you trying to make all the recent attacks seen light? These terrorists YOUR country created and/or nurtured ‘brazenly’ attacked inside your military base! And you use ABSORBED!!! Don’t sugar-coat the facts, the world is not stupid.

Your Pak Army now has to now attack all that it supported directly and passively to use against India.

Posted by bulletfish | Report as abusive

Myra, what is next?

Well, as I mentioned earlier, the cities are already under seige, albeit quietly by the militants.

It is not unplausible that the real fight with militants will be in the cities and it is quite conceivable that they are storing weapons in all cities as we speak, that is why Kashmir must be dropped as a point of focus for the Pak Army.

As we speak of the future, the Militants are already sticking ticking timebxmbs in the cities in Pakistan, if what have seen starting lately is any indication.

While it is great that the Pak Army is taking on salwar kameez militants with jets and tanks, the real fight will be in the cities, where jets and tanks cannot be used. This is where the true test of Pak Army mettle will begin, that being anti-insurgency and 3D Urban Warfare. This will get much messier and dirtier than Iraq. Militants from all over will magnetize into Pakistani cities, like they did in Iraq. The only difference is that Pakistan’s Army will be doing the fighting with foreign fighters in Pak cities, not the U.S. or Soviets.

While Pak bloggers and Polticians alike are acting smug and showing optimism, they are actually cherry picking the easy fight and buying time to show political good will towards the U.S. and the world to secure Aid money.

They lack the resources, training, will and strength to do Urban warfare with the militants. The police are no match to deal with their own low-level criminals, let alone trained and armed militants.

We are seeing the potential beginnings of a civil war in Pakistan. Dr. Frankenstein has become a target of its own creation.

Posted by GW | Report as abusive

Rajeev, please don’t assume that all Pakistanis have similar opinion. Its a bit insulting to say “so and so and other Pakistanis”. Also use of words like “wiping off” is a bit sinister.
In my view Pakistani strategy is as follows:
1. Destroy the sanctuary of Al-Qaeda in S.Waziristan. This can also be done if the TTP demonstrably break the link. The military action is being undertaken to tell the TTP that their collaboration with Al-Qaeda will not be tolerated. We are not to exterminate our own or others. As you will see it will not come to that. The TTP will hand over the Uzbeks and Sudanis and stop their activities inside and outside Pakistan. Military actions are conducted to achieve the set goal with minimum bloodshed. Even talking with the adversary is OK.
2. The foreign hand will have to be identified and truncated.
3. Punjabi Taliban is an entity created by the media. Just because a few thugs belong to Punjab does not mean that Punjab has suddenly become radicalized or something. If the Indians have the Naxalites making mischief it does not mean that India is about to become a communist country. However government should enforce rules on all madrassahs, even consider completely absorbing them in a public school system.
4. Police in both India & Pakistan are not properly trained. Fire & Rescue are almost non-existent. The lone fire tender (with the weak trickle) that was brought to fight the blaze in the Taj during Bombay attack was completely laughable. I don’t know why the fire tender tugs were not brought on the scene. The Navy is just around the corner there. The Taj is within the range of a powerful fire tender tug. The story is the same (may be worse) in Pakistan. If something happens in Karachi or Lahore it might result in similar chaos. The prompt handling of the GHQ seige was commendable. Both India and Pakistan should have properly trained rapid deployment squads.
5. Pakistn’s strong showing in this operation will bear results. A. The area will be free of all foreign desperados there. B. The tribal chiefs, once they know that Pakitan Army means business will put pressure on their brothers to stop their activities. C. More Cantonments around FATA will ensure not only security but also the recruitment of police and Army and FC from the area. There are a lot of Mehsuds in the army & FC already.

Meanwhile just follow Pakistan Army making history.

Posted by Mansoor Siddiqui | Report as abusive

Hullo there GW, I think you are watching too much macabre stuff. I live close to E. A. Poe’s house and I should be having a ghoulish attitude too but luckily I maintain an optimistic attitude at most times. There were times when I used to expect the worst when I heard any type of tap, tap, tapping at my door. The only advice I can give you is that whenever you are troubled with scary thoughts then watch something less scary on TV. I recommend “Young Frankenstein” and that may put you in a “hopeful” state of mind. As far’s your concerns about Pakistan heading into a civil war – banish the thought as we already have a mate ready for the monster. “And the monsters lived happily ever after.”
Happy Halloween GW!

Posted by Mansoor Siddiqui | Report as abusive

I feel sorry for the Pakistani and Afgani people, they are not terrorist. The true terrorist are the power hungry illuminati, they have brainwashed the taliban and are using them to help divide and conquer as they have done for thousands of years. It is evident that Their goal for a new world order has failed miserably, and they will most certainly pay dearly for the countless crimes they have commited, and the people with good intention regardless of what faith they belong to or whether they are religous or not will have the last laugh.

Posted by alix | Report as abusive

I think whatever is going on in pakistan these days…its the result of all their past sins, they grew,
so no matter how much effort they will try to control situation (we all knows there is no try from pakistan, because that is their main business, Grow Terrorists & mess around …in india or USA) its not going to help, because they only doing whatever us govt says, Its not their intention to do it…,
So H.Clintor should know that she and Obama needs to tighten the help towards Pakistans, because all the money us helps …only used for growing terrorist activities…nodoubt now Obama knew that, One good thing Happen.
Lets see when US will Attack Pakistan ? Thats the Main Topic as God Knows…and we all knows …

Posted by Very Good Man | Report as abusive

This all starts from Mullahs, Maulvie,Preachers,Giyani and pundits the brain dead religious zealots. Until you wipe out these guardians of religion Pakistan is doomed.
Pakistani, Taliban, Khalistani, Kashmiri issues started with bigoted religious people. Until religions are not kept out of politics the preachers of hate will thrive and capitalist will love profiting from selling them the killing machines. Wake up you plain human beings stop following the idiotic religions.
There is nothing in them for humanity.

Posted by ken | Report as abusive

Hi Myra

I have been following your blogs & comments for a few days now, what i have understood is that you always seem to favor India talking to pakistan. Hope all re aware that India has lost more than 200000 lifes from 1988 (both civilian & military) while loosing 3000+ life all westerners are jumping to the sky and you all want us to talk to Pakistan to solve the problem.I do not understand wht rationale or morale all are having? do you want Indian to forget about 200000 kith & kins we have lost? or do you want us to forget how west have been ignoring our screams on state sponsored terrorism by pakistan. I have seen one attitude that sucks with all these westerners is that when it comes to their people & life its sweet & when it is Indians they are not bothered about it. what ethics or morale it is? i have also seen many people preaching morality to Indians, what do you think we have been doing? al the way along we have been giving enough time and oppurtunity to Pakistan to work with us but they told something in the front and bombed us on the back. Noe Myra you say we are obsessed with war on Pakistan. this refelects your lack of sensitivity towards India’s plight with devil terrorism.
I am sorry that the so called westerners are not clear on what they talk or preach.
Kindly understand on what to talk & preach

Posted by SN | Report as abusive

Terrorism for any nation is bad.
Whether they foster it or use a weapon.

Posted by Amit | Report as abusive

This white supremacy theory has got no end. They are so stuck in it that that they don’t know what to do. So they keep on coming up with new theory. Sometimes they fiddle with black (misery of Africa), sometime they fiddle with yellows (China, Japan, Hiroshima), sometime they fiddle with browns(SubContinent), sometimes they fiddle among own (WW I and WW II). After all the fiddling, they begin to preach universality of peace. With money in pocket they come out to preach peace. Maybe it is time for the dragon to wake up and take the reigns of United Nations.

Posted by Q&A | Report as abusive

Mohammed Siddiq:

“I maintain an optimistic attitude at most times. There were times when I used to expect the worst when I heard any type of tap, tap, tapping at my door.”

–>Optimism is good, but it has got Pakistan now where. You should tell the likes of Ahmed Quaraishi and Mohammed Anjum, on this blog to be more positive, as they represent the greater view of Paks who choose to keep enmity with India, for no real reason.

BTW, I would gladly accept your happy halloween, but I did not ask “trick or treat”, I think the Taliban (Frankenstein) may be doing that on your door and they definitely come with all sorts of trickery for everybody in Pakistan. Just keep treats hand for them. Happy Halloween.

Frankenstein has been trick or treating in your cities lately, in case you were too busy being optimistic.

Posted by GW | Report as abusive

In the wake of these latest attacks in Iran and given all the problems Pakistan has, the future is bleak for Pakistan.

Posted by GW | Report as abusive

Mansoor:

@Rajeev, please don’t assume that all Pakistanis have similar opinion. Its a bit insulting to say “so and so and other Pakistanis”.
— Posted by Mansoor Siddiqui

–Mansoor: Oops I did not know that I will offend you with my previous address: “Mansoor Siddiqui and other Pakistanis:” Perhaps I should added “friends” at the end and that would have done the job. I just wanted your or any other Pakistani “friend’s” opinion? And it is understandable that the opinions differ from person to person.

@Also use of words like “wiping off” is a bit sinister.
– I am trying to imagine how one could call “Wiping out terrorists” (preferably “terrorism” as sinister). Is that not what PA did in SWAT and is doing in S. Waziristan? The ground realities are much worse where along with terrorists, innocents also die.

@ Punjabi Taliban is an entity created by the media. Just because a few thugs belong to Punjab does not mean that Punjab has suddenly become radicalized or something. If the Indians have the Naxalites making mischief it does not mean that India is about to become a communist country. However government should enforce rules on all madrassahs, even consider completely absorbing them in a public school system.”
– Thanks for the detailed reply and got a hint that you think there are just “few thugs” in Punjab but no terrorists and no radicalized Punjab. Then what do you call LeT, JeM and the radicalized South Punjab in Pakistan? Should I take it as your opinion that you do not call the abovementioned groups and many other Lashkar-hypenated-groups as terrorists?

@3. Punjabi Taliban is an entity created by the media. Just because a few thugs belong to Punjab does not mean that Punjab has suddenly become radicalized or something. If the Indians have the Naxalites making mischief it does not mean that India is about to become a communist country.”
–I have not heard media use the word “Punjabi Taliban”, did you? Media says there is collaboration between Punjabi militants and the Pakistani Taliban in recent suicide bombings. That is different from saying “Punjabi Taliban”. Now which militant organisations or “thugs” are involved among the Punjab-based groups is unknown. Calling them “thugs” is an example how a common man hesitates to label a terrorist as terrorists. Come on! These “thugs” have killed your Army in GHQ and police in elite police academy and what more will take you to call a spade a spade? There is a good reason to call these Punjab-based terrorists as “terrorists” not “thugs”.
Indian PM does not mince words and says that Maoists are the biggest internal security threat to India, and is appropriately responding to that without waiting for India to turn into a communist country. Also, naxalites do not cross the border and kill the foreigners but the same cannot be said for Punjab-based groups. If you have forgotten, the example is Ajmal Kasab from Punjab. Perhaps you do not see that as a problem.

@The lone fire tender (with the weak trickle) that was brought to fight the blaze in the Taj during Bombay attack was completely laughable.

-You quit getting laughing on Indian insecurity blunders for your own sake since blunders in Mumbai terrorism will not fix terrorism in Pakistan. Even at that time, did you notice the first step in Mumbai attack was the breach of Pakistani naval security which did not detect who escaped with what, assuming Pakistani navy did not know who is escaping.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

GW
I’m glad I was able to get you in a lighter vein. Pakistan is a hospitable country and lets no “trick or treat” guys go unrewarded. Even the TTP will have their “reward” soon – as well as al-Qaeda. As I advised earlier: sit back in your favorite chair and watch PA perform in SWA. I am sure you would not have seen such performance from any naighbouring armies. That should cheer you up.

Posted by Mansoor Siddiqui | Report as abusive

Rajeev,
1. I objected to the “wiping out” remark by you to emphasise that professional armies avoid using expressions like that. PA is operating within its own border and is not about to wipe out its own brethren or their women and children. The invaders (Uzbeks & Sudanese etc.) will be rounded up and if they do not surrender then they will be shot. The locals hired to do their dirty job will be given the option to start behaving or face punishment. They already have been given the option by the COAS.
2. The terrorists who attacked Bombay, including Kasab, should be given the maximum punishment. Any outfit, religious or not, connected with the cowardly attack on Bombay, should be equally punished. We grieved equally with you all. However I was angry at the lack of security. Why doesn’t the Taj and all the big hotels in India and Pakistan not have working “stand pipes” in the buildings and fire hydrants around them? We must be critical. The GHQ attackers should not have been allowed to go beyond the first gate. The later Commando action was however good as it succeeded in getting most of the hostages out who would have been killed in any case. The Indian Commandos who landed on Nariman House were very brave and did the right thing pretty well. Your contention that Pakistan Navy should have stopped them before they left the Pakistani shore is a little far-fetched. Coast around Karachi, including the Indus Delta is completely craggy and the Navy or the Coast Guard cannot patrol it. They will need hundreds of vessels for that. The Indian Navy, on the other hand were warned that a seaborne attack was expected in that area. This was totally ignored. Like probably the GHQ were also told that an attack was planned on it and they did not take adequate measures against it.
3. I think we all, both Indian and Pakitani bloggers, should show some restraint and be objective.

Posted by Mansoor Siddiqui | Report as abusive

“Punjabi Taliban is an entity created by the media. Just because a few thugs belong to Punjab does not mean that Punjab has suddenly become radicalized or something”
- Posted by Mansoor Siddiqui

It wasn’t very long ago when you guys were saying the same sort of things about TTP, that they are just a bunch of rag tag militants gone wild & pose no serious threat to the Pakistani state & now you seem to have the similar attitude towards Punjabi groups like LeT etc. I guess, since their terror activities so far have been mainly directed towards India, you don’t really care much about them. But if the recent attacks in Lahore & Rawalpindi are of any indication, these Punjabi groups are also starring to put the hurt on the Pakistani state. Those who don’t learn from past mistakes, are doomed!

“The lone fire tender (with the weak trickle) that was brought to fight the blaze in the Taj during Bombay attack was completely laughable”

I find it amusing that in typical Pakistani fashion, you find the need to unnecessarily bring India into an unrelated topic & mock it. Anyways, no one’s denying the fact that Indian cities are unprepared & vulnerable to terror attacks. Since you refer to the Mumbai attacks, lemme remind you that all Pakistani terrorists who carried out those attacks were killed/apprehended whereas there have been numerous attacks in Pakistan (Marwan Police academy, Sri Lankan team attacks, Lahore attacks etc) when none or just a few of the terrorists were killed/apprehended.

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive

I cannot believe all this is going on while Mushy boy is on a lecture tour of the USA, critizising the US-India ties.

ALL hostilities towards India from 1989 to present have originated in Pakistan. Now Pakistan has been told to clean up the mess it created.

Posted by bulletfish | Report as abusive

“GW
I’m glad I was able to get you in a lighter vein. Pakistan is a hospitable country and lets no “trick or treat” guys go unrewarded. Even the TTP will have their “reward” soon – as well as al-Qaeda. As I advised earlier: sit back in your favorite chair and watch PA perform in SWA. I am sure you would not have seen such performance from any naighbouring armies. That should cheer you up.
- Posted by Mansoor Siddiqui ”

–>Mr. Siddiqui, we need more sobering, rational Pakistani’s like you running Pakistan and reforming it. It is too bad that the Pak Army does not have more people like you, Pakistan would be a different type of place, in that it would be more progressive and prosperous.

One thing, though, you have not made a distinction between good and bad terrorists, do you not believe that all terrorists even those supported by Pak Army are detrimental for peace with India, especially the JuD, HuM and LeT?

Think carefully before you answer, as Indians, we do not have proxy armies, and did not start the last 4 wars with Pakistan. You guys started them and we have maintained the 400,000 Army in Kashmir as a defensive posture, to keep you honest. Do you think that it is time for Pakistan to reform and focus on building itself?

Honestly, as Indians, we find it quit absurd that Paks are keeping such a huge military expense against India due to Kashmir. Kashmir is easily solved…kill and destroy all proxy armies and both sides remove their armies and accept the current LOC as the defacto border.

We Indians also believe that Pak Kashmir belongs to India, but we have been letting that one go and never started any wars with you over that. Prince Maharaja Hari Singh legally condeded all Kashmir land to India for protection from Pathan thugs who were sent there to conquer it, but in a strange twist of fate, the Pathans decided to rape and loot, which greatly slowed their advance onto Delhi.

The time has come for Pakistan to come to terms with its past and focus on stabilizing its heartland.

Posted by GW | Report as abusive

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.h tml?id=2125570

Myra, here is a link to an article on the National Post. It suggests that Pakistan may well be on the brink of a civil war. This article backs up my opinions from a previous blog post I did, where I mentioned that the heartland of Pakistan is now under attack and that civil war and chaos may break out.

The militants sent a clear message to Pakistan itself, that they are at war with Pakistan, when they attacked Islamabad University, a place of higher learning, something that represents a place where one can learn independent, critical thinking skills with the ability to question and grow.

These Militants are hellbent on keeping Pakistan backwards. Average Pakistani’s must take note of this, they, the militants want to take your country, anyway they can. It is high time to make peace with India and focus all Pak Army resources, even the Kashmir ones to engage the militants head on, proactively and head on.

Any stalling and befuddling or half efforts by the Pak Army will put avg Pakistani citizens in harms way and give the militants open house to do as they please in the cities, like in Karachi, where 3million Pashtuns live, and that city is rife with the possibility of Urban Militantism, as mentioned in the article.

Pakistan has limited assimilative capacity to absorb terrorist strikes, since its internal security is already weak, it will be that much easier to create chaos in the cities.

If the Pak Army is going to be reactive, then the militants are always one step ahead.

Posted by GW | Report as abusive

Watch this video. This has the power to temper hard feelings on both sides of the border. We just need ten more people like this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJYPa79cP u4&feature=fvw

At times like these, the people of India and Pakistan should help each other and politicians will see this and change themselves accordingly.

President Zardari has been ‘very’ absent recently. We have yet to hear his condemnation of these attacks.
Where is he?
Has he been refrained from leaving his quarters by the military?
His absence is very suspect.

Posted by bulletfish | Report as abusive

“The terrorists who attacked Bombay, including Kasab, should be given the maximum punishment. Any outfit, religious or not, connected with the cowardly attack on Bombay, should be equally punished. We grieved equally with you all” – Posted by Mansoor Siddiqui

We haven’t had many Pakistanis (or rather, any Pakistanis) come out & say something like this on the blog, so I’m glad to hear it & I appreciate it.

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive