Pakistan’s war within

October 25, 2009

A spate of gun and bomb attacks seen as a response to the Pakistan Army’s offensive in South Waziristan has sent jitters across Pakistan, including in the normally peaceful capital Islamabad

Conventional wisdom would have it that the attacks on both security services and civilians would eventually turn the people against Islamist militants rather as happened in Iraq at the height of the violence there. But as yet, there is no sign of a clear and coherent leadership emerging that might be able to forge a consensus against the militants.

“Where are you, our leaders?” asks Cyril Almeida in a column in Dawn newspaper. “As the country burns, parents agonise over whether to send their children to school or not, offices of businesses local and foreign ramp up their security measures, the average citizen thinks twice before venturing into crowded locales or government buildings, a simple question for our leaders: where are you? Where are you, President Zardari? Where are you, Prime Minister Gilani? Where are you, Nawaz Sharif?”

“The limitations of our political class are well known,” he writes. “Our politicians are venal, corrupt and weak. We have to muddle through with them because they are all we have. Expecting statesmanship is futile. But as the country burns and the people cower in fear, we must ask: for the love of God and all things that can be good, can they not for once, if only for a little while, stand up and be counted?”

In a country given to conspiracy theories, the attacks are feeding a rumour mill in which everyone talks about who will be targeted next, writes Fatima Bhutto, the estranged niece of the late Benazir Bhutto.

“There are stories being whispered in Pakistan these days, and their veracity is hard to gauge,” she writes. “No one knows what is real anymore in this country that seems hell-bent on self-destruction. In fact, our chief industry now seems to be the manufacture of fear, and everyone’s on the assembly line. The combination of ever-present violence and lack of reliable information has made us a country of debilitating Chinese whispers.” 

And unlike Iraq, where al Qaeda was largely seen as an outside force, those behind the spate of attacks are from within Pakistan, often from its heartland Punjab province. They spent decades being told, with official sanction, that they were fighting a noble cause, first against the Soviet Union in Afghanistan during its 1979-1989 occupation and then against India in Kashmir, only to see the state turn against them.

In Iraq too, the United States skilfully used the power of American money to buy off local Sunni leaders to fight against al Qaeda. In Pakistan the power of American money is working against it, thanks to an uproar over U.S. plans to triple aid to the country, which are seen as carrying conditions which impinge on its sovereignty. 

No matter how much U.S. special envoy Richard Holbrooke might insist that there are no conditions attached to the American aid, and that U.S. intentions have been misrepresented, the perception lingers that the United States is using its money to threaten, rather than help, Pakistan. And that is a perception that can be exploited by militant groups keen to convince their followers that they alone will stand up to the United States.

The jihadica website says that the row over the Kerry-Lugar Bill, along with persistent rumours – denied by the government – of U.S. security company Blackwater expanding its operations in Pakistan – are recurring themes in Urdu-language jihadi literature.

“Militant scribes are chipping in on the hot topics of mainstream Pakistani media, dangerously aligning their grievances with those of the public – specifically, the latter’s anti-U.S. sentiments,” it says. ”While opinion may be torn on the use of military operations in Pakistan, Pakistanis from all walks of life appear united in perceiving the U.S. as an enemy.”

“So, what is to be done?” asks Pakistan’s News International.  ”We cannot obviously sit back and let our country be destroyed. Far more radical and more far-reaching steps are needed if the problem is to be overcome. The public needs to be involved to a larger extent in the effort against terrorism. This after all is a battle that has an impact on the life of every citizen – man, woman or child. The suicide bombers who strike so frequently have parents, siblings and other relatives somewhere. These people must play a part in stopping them. So too must their neighbours and others aware of the places where they are being trained and prepared for their missions.”

But in a country divided upon itself, who will lead that drive forwards?

(Reuters photos: the grave of a 19-year-old girl killed in an attack on Islamabad University; a child at the grave of Benazir Bhutto)

57 comments

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Changes have to happen in the hearts of Pakistani people first. They have been misled by false propaganda all these years, which has led to the current state of their country. They have to realize that nations do not exist for derailing other nations. Every nation has a goal to achieve – that of welfare and good governance. Pakistani psyche has been severely damaged over the years by projecting false impressions about non-Muslims and Indians in particular.

Pakistani military establishment, since the days of Ayub Khan has gotten worse with time in building up a war hysteria. When the real enemy does not exist, this hysteria will only turn the country on its head. This military establishment has used all the tactics that are typical of organizations like Hezbollah, LTTE etc – First they project that their ideology is under threat. Then they project their people are under threat. And they keep fueling this threat psychosis to strengthen their system until most ordinary people simply start following what they project.

It is very hard to appreciate the beauty of a sunset after going almost blind. I see some Pakistanis coming out of the closet and regretting what has happened to their country. They should have staged an upraising against their military establishment long ago. Their military destabilized their civilian governments often, never allowed them to settle down and made the people believe that there is no other alternative. Anytime they thought of an alternative, the India / Kashmir card was played. It is unfortunate. Let us hope, Pakistanis come out of this self inflicted misery of their and do the right thing from here on.

AUM
A COUNTRY DIVIDED AGAINST ITSELF
By Brigadier Chitranjan Sawant,VSM

Pakistan is at war. It is not a declared war but everyone, one and all, both the natives and the foreigners know that a war is going on. The Pakistan Army is dead serious on eliminating the menace of terrorism. However, other citizens like teachers, bureaucrats and ordinary citizens are not convinced that the Army is serious about its business vis-a-vis terrorism. Nevertheless, in the heart and mind, a guide escorting some brave foreign tourists is convinced that this is not the best of times to see Taxila’s Buddhist university of yore or the Anarkali Bazar of Lahore today. But he has to earn his daily bread and this is the cleanest way of doing so.
WHERE IS THE ENEMY
It is an undeclared war. No unit has identified an enemy. A circular floated by General Headquarters has just arrived. It defines the enemy and asks all ranks not to have any dealings with the defined enemy. A person, male or female of any age, who challenges the concept and formation of Pakistan and is waging a war against Pakistan or is prepared to wage a war, and with this common intent assembles and organises them to go on a raid to destabilise the country, will be called an enemy of the State of Pakistan and will be brought before a court of law to stand trial. On conviction, such a person will be hanged till death. The body will be handed over to the next of kin for performance of last rites.
Who runs the government of Pakistan? It is a sensitive issue and is never discussed in an open space. In the lighter vein, one may say that three A’s run the show –America, Army and Allah –and in the same order of importance. America has loosened its purse strings and gives a soft loan to Pakistan to the tune of 1.25 billion dollars per year. He who pays the piper, dictates the tune – the age old saying is true to situation even today. Army has run the government most of the time since independence and knows the finer nuances of administration. One of the major reasons why the Pakistan army lost the 1971 war and surrendered unconditionally to India was their distaste for the devilish business of fighting and their penchant for a cushy job like governance of the country. Be that as it may, the Pakistan Army still runs the show by using remote control. There is a civil administration with a President, a Prime Minister and an elected legislature. They know their limitations and do not wish to cross the Lakshman Rekha. No one in his senses expects a powerful Army Chief like General Ashfaq Pervez Kayani to take orders from a playboy President, Asif Ali Zardari. In any case, the two are not on talking terms.
Thus here is a government where the right hand does not know what the left is doing. Here is a country where the people are badly divided on sectarian lines like the Shiite, the Sunni, the Ahmediyas and what have you. The minorities like the Hindus, the Sikhs and the Christians do not matter in Pakistan. Their national flag has a white strip to represent the hapless minorities and that is the end of it. The residents of the tribal belt come under a separate administration called the FATA or Federally Administered Tribal Areas. The British in India had kept them divided so that they gain no political strength. Since Independence on 14 August 1947, the government of Pakistan made no endeavour to improve their educational, economic or political condition and they are where they were more than 62 years ago. Since no effort was made for their integration, the process of disintegration gained momentum. The tribes like Mehsuds, Waziri, Yusufzai, Tadjiks and what have you who were fiercely independent by nature gained more momentum through the barrel of the gun. The British Indian Army of the undivided India had found it difficult to control what is now called FATA through force and they bought their silence through hard cash. The situation is no better now; rather it is worse. The invisible enemy lies in wait for the regular army in the hills and dales, jungles and ravines of the unforgiving terrain of Waziristan.
WATERLOO OF FOREIGN FORCES
Alexander’s invincible phalanxes had found it difficult to hold the ground in the areas called FATA today. The mighty Mughals ruling from Delhi lost the humorist general, Raja Birbal in the process of suppressing the revolt of these tribal people. The tribal loyalties are strong and the entire tribe goes out to the rescue of an individual or a family in distress. Even Tadjiks and Waziris come to the active aid of Mehsuds, notwithstanding tribal rivalries. Of late, Pakistan had been trying hard to play one tribe against the other but had no appreciable success. With modern system of surveillance, an organised regular army has gained more strength. Baitullah Mehsud, the tribal chief and head of the Tehrik-e-Taliban Pakistan was thus killed by a missile fired from an American drone while sleeping in the open terrace with his young second wife. While making an attempt to sire a son, he lost his life. His place is now taken over by Hakimullah Mehsud who has vowed a revenge for loss of his predecessor.
As is well known to those who have been following the strategy of the Taliban and the Pakistan Army, it is the United States of America that had been pressurising the Pakistan government to make a decision to eliminate the Taliban leadership and proceed against Islamist terrorism with determination. The Americans increased the aid money to Pakistan but kept an eye on the recipients ’budgeting. It is an open secret that General Kayani is unhappy with the strings attached to the US aid and was in favour of declining to accept it. President Zardari, however, did not wish to alienate the Americans and has accepted both the aid and strings. The US pressure on Pakistan worked and in June 2009 a firm decision was taken to fight it out with a one-time brothers-in-arms, the Taliban. However, it took time to mobilise two divisions of 28000 men and deploy them in the battle zone. Thus it was not until 16 October 09 that a ground attack code named “ Rahe Nijaat”or Road of Deliverance, was launched. The air attacks by helicopter gunships and fighter jets had been going on for quite some time. The troops were needed to hold the ground snatched from the Taliban. Should the Pakistan Army make a decision to penetrate deep into the jungles or the hills and dry ravines, they will have to constantly keep an eye on the Terrain, the Weather and the attitude of non-Mehsud tribes towards the ongoing armed confrontation. The winter is not far behind and a snowfall may be expected in November-December 2009.
PROGRESS OF BATTLE
Let us admit right at the beginning that there is no transparency in the battle procedure and progress of battle. The whole process is opaque. The press briefing by the PRO confuses the scribes more and removes doubts less. Whatever little information comes out of the battle zone is rather scanty and paints only the army in good light. The Taliban is shown as the losing force. However, the press corps knows that had the Army been so efficient and powerful, the Taliban would have been exterminated long ago. But they are still alive and kicking. The government spokesman says that only 17 soldiers lost their life but more than 90 Taliban were killed in a fierce fire fight. Anyway, the media has no means of checking the truth or otherwise of this report.
Some refugees who came out of the dense jungles and ravines did mention that most of the residential areas have been vacated by the local tribesmen. At the same time they did not confirm any large scale movement of army officers and soldiers on footpaths or cart roads leading into the ravines and broken terrain. One may safely surmise that the fierce hand to hand battle between the army men and the tribesmen has not yet begun. It may be mentioned that in 2004 and twice thereafter the Pakistan army had closed in on the tribal people but they were beaten back by the tribal fighters. The Army Headquarters was forced to negotiate and propitiate the tribal fighters every time. Naturally, the Pakistan army officers and soldiers did not cover themselves with glory in these face offs. No wonder, the Army is still testing the waters before taking a plunge. The million dollar question is; how long?
Since the Wajiristan warfront is getting more and more opaque, we have little choice but to sign off for now. We promise to return when there is some worthwhile report to bring to our readers who are real connoisseurs of news and views.
UPVAN, 609, Sector 29, NOIDA – 201303, INDIA. Mobile 0091-9811173590.
Email : sawantg.chitranjan@gmail.com Phone ; 0091-120-2454622.

But in a country divided upon itself, who will lead that drive forwards?

-I think it will be the Army, alongwith the civilian leaders and most of all ordinary Pakistanis can take Pakistan forward during these challenging times.
As for America being percieved as enemey, well Pakistan and America were allies during Soviet Afghan war, later under the pressler ammendmend sanctions were imposed on Pakistan and even F-16s were not delivered which were paid for. Years of policy blunders have led to the anti-American sentiment in average Pakistani, trust can be rebuilt but it will take time.
Pakistani society was radicalised during the Soviet Afghan war;
Zbigniew Brzezinski to Jihadists: Your cause is right!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJTv2nFjM Bk&feature=related
Zbigniew Brzezinski
“That land over there is yours, and you’ll go back there one day, because your fight will prevail, you’ll get your homes, Mosques back because your cause is right and God is on your side” addressing Mujahideen at Khyber pass during the early 80s”.

What happened after that is history, Jihadis from Egypt and freedom fighters as far as from Africa travelled to Afghanistan and made Peshawar, Pakistan as their base camp. They were champion freedom fighters, why? why was Pakistan used this way? Now all complains that ISI is a dubious organization. Yes, it is, it is supposed to be.

Now America is trying to reverse those mistakes, the new lessons is, take the billions of dollars. Madrassas are not good, get some books and computers, get your people educated. Ok, why did’nt you send books and computers to Pakistan before?, because you were too busy with wars and sending rifles and grenades. So why is there too much impatience? just slow down. Pakistan will reform at its own pace.

Pakistan is no where near being a failed state or not going to collapse overnight. The Army is patriotic and strong, it will cleanse the Waziristan’s from the terrorists inch by inch. Sure, we can’t blame everything on outsiders. However I have full confidence this country has the potential to turn around and it will.

For Indians, cry as much as you want that will not weaken the Pakistani Army or decrease its public support.
We support our Army!

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

It is not a coincidence that after a bloody terror campaign for 3 weeks in Pakistan. things are quite for a day and then these huge bomb blasts in Baghdad. Everything is well co-ordinated.

Pakistan has been Iraqised. The theater of global jihad has been expanded to Islamabad and Lahore.

It will take time -months if not years. The primary obstacle in pakistan is going to be the division in the society, media, within the army and ISI. The section in pakistani society in favor of global jihad is feeding the anti-American sentiment.

Without American aid and involvement Pakistan will collapse in no time. But then that’s the main goal of the supporters of jihadi supporters. Only thing they could do is terrorism and intimidate the public and politicians.

Cyril Almeida says:
a simple question for our leaders: where are you? Where are you, President Zardari? Where are you, Prime Minister Gilani? Where are you, Nawaz Sharif?”

A simple answer: In their bullet proof, blast proof, air conditioned mansions. And sorry, they can’t hear you and you should hide in a bunker too! Where were you when ISI was busy creating these monster for India in last 30 years! Still today army/ISI are busy saving and sending terrorists to India!

Sorry dude, you will have to mend for yourself! Even army/ISI can’t cover themselves!

Posted by Andy | Report as abusive

ISPR Documentary – The Price of Peace
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSND9CIVC K8&feature=related

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Pakistan is light years away from getting its head out of the sand. This is the bad luck of Pakistanis and the entire neighborhood. Kids who blog these days were not even born when Zia started the problems but they still quote those bad times.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Today’s Pakistan is the result of decades of feeding of falsehoods, conspiracy theories & distorted history and radicalization by the Pakistani military establishment. It has gotten to a point where average Pakistanis simply don’t have the will or the intellectual/moral conviction to challange their military establishment. They parrot the same lines & flip-flop as per the mood of the army. If the army doesn’t consider the taliban a threat, they don’t either. If the army finally decides (after US coercion & bribery) that the taliban is a threat & needs to be eliminated, their minds also change. If the army thinks of India as the ‘real threat’, so do they. If the army creates furore over the Kerry-Lugar bill making noise about the impingement of Pakistani sovereignity, the public parrots the same line (I bet most Pakistanis haven’t even read it).

From what I can see, it will not be easy at all to rescue the Pakistani people from this evil hold of the army. The only way I see it happening is if institutions are strengthened & the people are un-radicalized with the power of education. But it’s a long & hard road & I don’t think that the civilian leaders of Pakistan have the moral courage or the selflessness to challange the powerful military establishment. Even more importantly, will the military establishment facilitate or allow the creation of an atmosphere, whereby their power will be curtailed & limited?

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive

The Army is patriotic and strong, it will cleanse the Waziristan’s from the terrorists inch by inch.
– Posted by Umair
========

Such army/ISI sentiments, rosy optimism are not shared by the civvies.

Pakistan army has lost its moral deterrence and credibility pretty badly. Sine the army has prevented the growth of insitutions for 62 years, when the army looks weak, lawlessness ensues. There are no viable mechanisms such as political process, credible democratic instituitions to resolve conflicts and address problems.

The odds for Yugoslavia type inter-ethnic civil war in Pakistan are much higher now than a few months ago.India should be prepared for potential refuge crisis. If civil war starts in Sindh, specifically Karachi there is nowhere to go except eastward. They won’t go into Balochistan because it is a desert.

The other concern of ISI resuming low level bus bombs, train bombs, etc in India is always there. Now the cover/ claim would be since pakistan itself is suffering from terrorism, it is very unlikely to indulge in terrorism in India.

When the allied forces were converging on Berlin, it was not like Hitler was re-examining his delusional thought processes. Same is the mindset of pakistan army/ISI. They are going to bring more suffering to the people of subcontinent.

Taliban’s Pakistan
As the state machinery took its time before launching the operation in Waziristan, the Taliban outflanked it by launching an offensive of their own, bringing the war to the heartland of the country.

The brazen attack on GHQ, which was quickly followed by three synchronised raids on security establishments in Lahore, is a change in the tactics of the Taliban. After taking on GHQ, the proverbial nerve centre, they have shown a change in the tactics of terror: the militants’ attacks have now metamorphosed into a full-blown urban war.Until recently they would attack military convoys with improvised devices or their frenzied cadres would blow themselves up near a target or in a crowd. Now they have descended from the hills of Waziristan (as the common understanding goes) to extend the theatre of war. It will divide the focus of the armed forces and put many people’s lives at risk.

http://ahraza.wordpress.com/2009/10/25/t aliban-ka-pakistan/

ISPR Documentary – The Price of Peace
- Posted by Umair

Is that video part of “Gimme More” song?

Posted by Sam | Report as abusive

Myra,
Are you losing hope now? You sound very hopeless in your last few articles! Umair is still standing strong . . at least he sounds so!!!

I have been telling you for last few months .. “”Descent in to Chaos”"

Posted by Andy | Report as abusive

Umair Says:
Jihadis from Egypt and freedom fighters as far as from Africa travelled to Afghanistan and made Peshawar, Pakistan as their base camp. They were champion freedom fighters, why? why was Pakistan used this way?

Dude, did you ever ask that question to your leaders? What were they thinking: revenge or dollars? Did u ever ask that question to ISI? ISI volunteered to be the lead money manager. How much ISI got out of the 300 bil dollars given by US/Saudi? Didi you ask your army? How much arms/weapons they got for their duplicitous fight?

Civilized countries have a vision to prosper! Your country had a vision to extort, revenge and blackmail! This is what happens to people with bad Karma!

Will you now stop blaming others and fight with the taliban!

Posted by Andy | Report as abusive

Problem with pakistan started when India and pakistan were divided. India and pakistan were supposed to be a united nation if not for Nehru and Jinnah. Even though you hear different stories from India and Pakistan, I blame both for failing to reach an agreement to have a unified nation.
I’m an Indian and I do feel sad for Pakistan’s current state. I have always dreamed of a united India/Pakistan in future. I’m sure there are several ‘sane’ Indians and Pakistanis who think same as me.
Let India and Pakistan unite. Together the united nation does not need to spend millions/billions of money on war/military and instead spend on education, rule of law, preserving democracy and religious freedom and unity in the country.

Posted by ARVIND | Report as abusive

The day Qureshi was sent scrambling to the US to try and dilute the language of the Kerry – Luger Bill, it was obvious that it was the army that’s calling the shots and has been for sometime. The signs are all too familiar. The army is in de facto control. Gillani, Zardari & Co were useful to the army to make patriotic noises about fighting to the last blood et al against India, a while ago. It is no surprise that they are keeping quiet, they have nothing to offer and are not in control. Kayani is giving them enough rope to prove their redundancy to the public at large. This will be followed by well planted whispers of the people looking up to the army to save them. It seems to have started here already.

The anti-US, anti-establishment tirade in the vernacular press is exactly what happens in Kashmir. The militants and Jehaidis take them over and find them only too willing to fan their propaganda and become their mouth piece. More and more bizarre rumours will be spread till the public is traumatised.

Let India and Pakistan unite. Together the united nation does not need to spend millions/billions of money on war/military and instead spend on education, rule of law, preserving democracy and religious freedom and unity in the country.
- Posted by ARVIND

You are NUTS! We are not taking back Pakistan or Bangladesh or anyone! We need to find our destiny, NOT add more problems!

Yes, we need to spend more on defense. We need to get ready for China. Peace through Force!

Posted by Indian | Report as abusive

Iranian Revolutionary Guard officers Cross in to PAKISTAN

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/arti cle/ALeqM5i-oMVMISljF7wbObsbboh8m94gswD9 BIQTJ80

Posted by Andy | Report as abusive

Mortal
You stated you are member of the NY Democratic party caucus, & have been a part of discussions with senior members of the party & also the administration thinks Pak Army is corrupt. Obama administration is trying to empower the civilian government in Pakistan.

-I have a few thoughts, you need to understand the professional character of Pakistani Army, it is the highest contributor to UN peacekeeping missions across the world with more than 10,000 troops stationed across worldwide. The Pakistan Army understands the Americans more than the Americans could ever understand the Pakistani military establishment. Just FYI current COAS Gen. Kayani is a graduate of the Infantry Officer Advanced Course, US Army Infantry School, Fort Benning, Georgia, the US Army Command and General Staff College, Fort Leavenworth, Kansas; Asia-Pacific Center for Security Studies, Honolulu, Hawaii among others. Other senior officers routinely go for courses abroad. I have a family friend who is a FLt Lt in PAF and serves as an flying instructor at the RAF academy in UK. In school i had a friend whose father was a Col. in ISI and he told me his father was doing Phd in futuristics that time. Again Pakistani Special forces have close links with British SAS and US special forces and the training doctrine is combined with western forces. When you talk about Pakistan Army don’t think of a rag tag militia which is corrupt and has no doctrine to follow.
Coming back to the Democratic party, analysts are already comparing Obama’s Afghan war to Lydon B.Johnson’s Vietnam war. The lack of decision on request of additional 40,000 troops requested by ISAF Commander Gen. McChrsytal and corrput Karzai government in Kabul doesnt make things any better. Some argue the war in Afghanistan is already over and its all about saving face now. The commanders on ground argue if additional troops and resources are not deployed on urgent basis, it will be impossible to reverse the insurgency and failure is imminent within 12 months. A failure here means no second term for Obama, and who do you think will run for president from the republicans? i guess Sarah Palin. The democrats may well start worrying about their own future rather than trying to alter the nature of Pakistani state. Obama’s plan to remake Pakistan is frought with dangers and has the potential to fracture the civil-military relations in Pakistan which could backfire. Lastly, your misperception that public doesn’t know in Pakistan regarding the KLB, as an example in my office colleagues were emailing each other and trying to find the latest pdf copy of the Kerry Luger bill to go over it. another myth busted.
If you want to see a weakened Pakistani Army, remember it safeguards Pakistan’s nuclear arsenals. A weak Army in pakistan means radio-active materials and warheads smuggled all across the region. And frankly, even at the NY Times blogs I have seen you Indians in the west going on a relentless campaign against the Pakistani Army and ISI. If you want to settle any scores that is a different thing, however don’t just spread lies.

Rajeev,Andy , KP Singh
While your concerns can be genuine, only Pakistanis can decide what is better for them. People in Pakistan are mindful, have access to a free media and internet and can decide what is good for them. And your guy’s paranoia with ISI feeding information to Pakistani public is an extreme, you think even if there is a flood or storm in India that ISI is behind it.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Turkey to mediate between Iran and Pakistan
http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/news-1 91044-100-turkey-to-mediate-between-iran -and-pakistan.html

Turkish prime minister is on a two-day official visit to Pakistan aimed at further strengthening the relationship between the two countries. “We will proceed to Iran and we will have the opportunity to discuss this issue with the Iranian president. We need to act in concert to ensure that the region finds peace and stability,” Erdo?an said.
Responding to another question about infiltrations from Afghanistan into Pakistan and Turkey’s role, being a member of NATO, in dealing with this, Erdo?an said his country will assume the command of the International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) in Afghanistan on Nov. 1 while terming the problem a “disturbing issue.”

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Just FYI current COAS Gen. Kayani is a graduate of the Infantry Officer Advanced Course, US Army Infantry School, Fort Benning, Georgia, the US Army Command and General Staff College, Fort Leavenworth, Kansas…………….. only Pakistanis can decide what is better for them…….. you think even if there is a flood or storm in India that ISI is behind it.
- Posted by Umair
=====
-? First of all, I notice I am not one of those who you would graciously talk to!! That’s fine and I take it as a badge of honor in the service of my country. It is a recognition of the fact you find my questions and comments unpalatably truthful and accurate. The visitors can read my responses that way your lies get dismantled right away.

-? Everyone knows Pak army generals are elites, get trained in US, have relationships with British and American generals and all that. Every one also knows they are an unprofessional bunch who nurture and use terrorists to kill unarmed civilians in India and Afghanistan. They have their children settle in the west, live in cushy cantonments but let poor children turn into terrorists across Pakistan. Example is Gen. Musharaff who has his son live in the US; he let the soldiers of Northern Light Infantry eat grass in the mountains of Kargil in 1999 and now collects several thousand dollars for each dinner talk.

According to Pakistani media, Pakistan army is an unprofessional army that spends energies on real estate business, fertilizer business and so on. And the Pakistan army has never been known for their fighting prowess either! In the real wars they never fought to the last man. Just after 1500 deaths in 1971, they surrendered and get a stamp issued like this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en  /e/ef/PakistanPoW.jpg

-? Things Pakistanis have decided for themselves have been very bad for the people of subcontinent and now very bad for the entire humanity. So letting “Pakistani people decide for themselves” is not a benign idea.

-? No we don’t attribute floods and storms in India to ISI. We specifically attribute bomb blasts in commuter trains, bomb blasts in market streets and temples of Delhi, Jaipur, Varanasi and shooting commuters waiting at Mumbai train station to ISI.

-? About Indian blogging, good for them!! Even a few years ago ISI would hijack Indian planes, kill unarmed civilians in India. And Pakistan used to go around as a respectable country, and ISI as just another spy agency, now the whole world knows the truths about Pakistan army, ISI and Pakistan itself.

Erdo?an (Turkish PM) said his country will assume the command of the International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) in Afghanistan on Nov. 1 while terming the problem a “disturbing issue.”
- Posted by Umair

So now Turkey is going to bomb Pakistan?

Posted by Robin | Report as abusive

@ Umair: “you need to understand the professional character of Pakistani Army, it is the highest contributor to UN peacekeeping missions across the world…..”

I’m not surprised to see you come to the defense of & toot the horn of the Pakistani army yet again since for months now, you’ve been their unofficial mouth-piece on this blog.
First of all, let me clear this “PA is the highest contributor to UN peacekeeping missions” nonsense, since I’ve heard you say this repeatedly; It really doesn’t mean anything. The UN sends only troops from third world countries to these missions because the countries where these missions take place (mostly failed states in Africa) feel less threatened by those countries. The troop contributions as of Mar, 2007 were: Pakistan (10,173), Bangladesh (9,675), India (9,471), Nepal (3,626), Jordan (3,564) & the most casualties suffered were those of India (127), Canada (114) and Ghana (113). So please don’t bring this ridiculous point again while highlighting the ‘professionalism’ of your army because it’s absolutely insignificant & irrelevant.
Secondly, just because some of PA’s high ranking officers were trained in the US/UK & apparently there hasn’t been a breach in the rank & file yet, what does that have anything to do with their corrupt & immoral deeds & intentions? The armys of Hitler & Mussolini were also most disciplined & professional. What good did they do for their own people or for the world?
Even if I were to accept that they are indeed very disciplined & professional, does that cover the fact that they have held Pakistan’s democracy hostage for decades, while plundering & self-destructing the country through corrupt means, fake threat perceptions & unnecessary wars?
Does it absolve them of the fact that they have created and/or nurtured & been in bed with most terror outfits, including Al Qaeda?
You may hide it all you want but it’s common knowledge that the Pakistani military establishment are less of defense personal & more of corrupt power brokers who enjoy the prestige & luxuries of the highest order while a common Pakistani is can’t even afford 2 meals a day. They live luxuriously in mansions while the commoners are homeless & jobless. Their kids study in the UK & US while common Pakistanis are forced to send their children to madrasas, since that’s all they can afford. It won’t be too long before common Pakistanis see the truth as it exists & revolt against the military establishment.

“Coming back to the Democratic party, analysts are already comparing Obama’s Afghan war to Lydon B.Johnson’s Vietnam war”

That’s all just good old hardball american politics. The very same neo-cons who started & mismanaged the wars in Iraq & Afghanistan are now trying to blame & bring down Obama for those wars but the American people aren’t stupid & Obama isn’t either. I know, you guys want the US troops to withdraw from AfPak so that the PA can start playing it’s vile games again but that won’t happen. You can be rest assured that Obama will finish the job in AfPak because he knows that withdrawing from the region would be a return of pre-9/11 conditions & there’s no way, he’ll let that happen. In fact, mark my words, once troops start withdrawing from Iraq, they’ll be moved to AfPak. So, get ready for more action in your neck of the woods as the war expands to other parts of Pakistan, including Punjab.

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive

@ Umair: “If you want to see a weakened Pakistani Army, remember it safeguards Pakistan’s nuclear arsenals”

Let me make this clear to you; the US & the world does not want to weaken the Pakistani army. It simply wants the Pakistani army to be a defense arm of Pakistan’s civilian Govt & not become the Govt itself. I’ve heard you say many times that Pakistan is a democratic country. If that really is the case then be democratic in spirit & not just cosmetically. For all the flaws of Pakistan’s civilian leaders, one can safely say that Pakistan would’ve been in much better shape if the PA wouldn’t have upstaged democracy over & over & let it evolve unhindered.
Democracy itself is an evolutionary process. Corrupt leaders do get elected but patience is needed. India also went through decades of corrupt leaders but the army never interfered & finally some good leadership in the form of Narsimha Rao, AB Vajpayee & Manmohan Singh emerged. Pakistan can learn from India in that regard & let it’s democracy evolve despite it’s flaws & as the country progresses, good leadership will emerge.

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive

I have a few thoughts, you need to understand the professional character of Pakistani Army, it is the highest contributor to UN peacekeeping missions across the world with more than 10,000 troops stationed across worldwide. The Pakistan Army understands the Americans more than the Americans could ever understand the Pakistani military establishment. Just FYI current COAS Gen. Kayani is a graduate of the Infantry Officer Advanced Course, US Army Infantry School, Fort Benning, Georgia, the US Army Command and General Staff College, Fort Leavenworth, Kansas; Asia-Pacific Center for Security Studies, Honolulu, Hawaii among others. Other senior officers routinely go for courses abroad. I have a family friend who is a FLt Lt in PAF and serves as an flying instructor at the RAF academy in UK. In school i had a friend whose father was a Col. in ISI and he told me his father was doing Phd in futuristics that time. Again Pakistani Special forces have close links with British SAS and US special forces and the training doctrine is combined with western forces. When you talk about Pakistan Army don’t think of a rag tag militia which is corrupt and has no doctrine to follow.
-Posted by Umair

Are you somehow desperately trying to prove yourself to the rest of us that Pakistan Forces are the best in the world because of the officers’ education?

All these wonderful little anecdotes are meaningless when looking back at Pakistan’s embarassing 90,000 PoW after surrender to a Sikh, a Jew and a Parsi. Followed by the whinging of Z. Bhutto at the UN back in 1971.

Posted by bulletfish | Report as abusive

Mr. Mortel
You sound like really fed up against PAK, isn’t it?
You are saying lot and lots of words about PAKISTAN and its army pretending all good things belong to may be INDIAN army? Is it what you think?
You know what, you INDIANS have a problem and your problem is your own media. Your media keeps on misguiding you about other countries like PAKISTAN as well as misguiding about your own country showing they are innocent and every bad thing in this world is due to PAKISTAN. Do you have answers to my two questions?
Do you have any answers why a train full of PAKISTANIS going through indian soil was burnt down brutly?
WHo was involved in it? No Indian wants to talk about it why? Why ATS chief was killed because he was after that INDIAN army officer who was behind that train incident?
You guys would never talk about it and even after doing that kind of killing of innocent people, still INDIA is great country and PAKISTAN is terrorist……
Why Indian has opened so many consulats just within the border area of Afghanistan with Pakistan? They aid rebel groups in Balochistan as well as to Taliban to create more insurgency in Pakistan……….nobody ever talks about it…………why?
dont you ever dare saying anything about PAKISTAN if you dont have any answers to my questions………Mind it……..

Posted by Riz | Report as abusive

Mortal:
“mark my words, once troops start withdrawing from Iraq, they’ll be moved to AfPak. So, get ready for more action in your neck of the woods as the war expands to other parts of Pakistan, including Punjab.”

-Today 8 US troops killed in Afghanistan in an explosion, yesterday 14 troops were killed in two seperate helicopter crashes. Additional troops deployment means a surge in fighting and more casualties. Is the American public prepared for this? Irrespective of who created the mess whether they were neo-cons or not, the war has its consequences. The Afghan conflict is much more complex than Iraq, a simple troop surge by Gen. Petraus worked in Iraq, but in Afghanistan things on ground are not looking promising. The South of the country is under Taliban control, even the Obama administration is split and undecided on the war strategy amid declining public support. Vice President Biden is in favour of scaling down troop levels and redefining the US objectives. the target should be to deny Al-Qaeda a safe haven in Afghanistan and help the Afghan Army in capacity building.
Pakistan can help US negotiate an end of the war with Taliban, Pakistan has the connections and can use them to bring end to conflict. Infact a working group of India, Pakistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Russia etc can do this job.

Pakistan has a huge and very well equipped Army deployed at the Indo-Pak border. The Waziristan operation is conducted by only 2 divisions, so you remain assured that Pakistan is fully capable of keeping a lid on things. Yes there has been a surge in violence, but Pakistani forces are well prepared to maintain law and order across the country including the hearltleand, Punjab.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

This comments are actually far more interesting and thought provoking than the actual blog posts themselves. It clearly highlights the open biases we all have in our perspectives based on what we’ve been fed by the media, peers, mentors, etc. Its just awesome to read the garbage spewed out by some of my brainwashed brothers who keep touting the same nonsensical statements which they have been blindly led to believe all along. Hint hint – Umair & Riz. Don’t you guys have anything constructive to add or say, besides the same PA propaganda message. Or are you the media arm of the PA, which is more and more convincing with every post that you guys put up. Your country is at the cusp of change and self implosion. You assigned power to the corrupt and then sing their praises when they command you to. LOL, fantastic. When will you realize that the enemy is not at the border or even the Taliban, AQ, or the hundreds of other rag-tag blasphemers fighting in the name of “Allah”. Your true enemy is you, the people of pakistan. You are weak and foolish and would rather rely and blindly support whoever is leading you today. Given your country’s sordid political history, pretty much anyone can seize control on any given day and lose it the next to another, and you will welcome both with open arms. Democracy is your only chance at survival, and yet you shun it based on the military propaganda you have been brought up to believe in. I would love to destroy all the pride you have in your armed forces using known and accepted facts, but then why bother. Give them a couple of months in Waziristan, and you will start to see the futility of your own arguments.

As of today, the only options the people have is backing their civilian government to the hilt and immediately initiating curbs in the military’s power which will lead to a long period of instability and a protracted war. You will need to end your hostilities with your so-called “enemies” across the border and seek their help without which there is absolutely no solution to the insurgent problem. But wait, there may be one other option, the one that truly scares me as an Indian. Continue with business as usual, the country degenerates into absolute chaos, the taliban eventually takes over. There can be two outcomes, bulk majority of the people evacuate and start fleeing across the border to India, which creates a security situation for us for ever. Or, like the pakistanis have shown time and over again, you will accept the extremist rule and happily surrender your freedoms and governance to the new rulers (along with the nukes I must add). The 2012 doomsday scenario starts to play out. Ironically, even in this turn of events, I would love to read Umair’s and Riz’s opinion. What will it be then my friends, absolutely jihad on everything and everyone?

I hope pakistanis listen to their dormant voices of reason and stop being the cowards they’ve been all along. Stand up for yourselves, your rights and your country. India will always back you and help you. We dont want your country or quite honestly anything to do with you either. We just want you to stop destabilizing everyone else’s lives. Is that really too much to ask?

Posted by RV | Report as abusive

Mr Riz,

Please provide credible evidence for the number of Indian consulates inside Afghanistan, their locations, their activities with substantiated information from neutral sources that show that they engage in sabotaging Pakistan and why it has not been brought to limelight in any of the world newspapers like NY Times, Washington Post, The Guardian etc. These newspapers publish a lot of information which say point blank that Pakistan is the epicenter of global Islamic terrorism. It is not Indians doing this. And Indian media will only write from Indian standpoint and not from that of the Chinese or the Burmese. And Indians have access to international media as well, not just Indian.

India has a lot of court cases pending regarding terrorist activities, including that of Ajmal Kasab, your country’s prodigal son.

The root cause of all your ills is the built up hatred of India and Hindus. If you open your eyes, you will realize that India is not run by an autocratic regime made up of saffron clad Hindu Nazis. They are losing elections left and right, which is a clear sign that the population is rejecting religious ideology for political issues.

I’d never say we are great. But we have a lot of things to be proud of, considering the odds against which we have to survive and move forward. The reason why so many Indians seem unanimous against the views expressed by most Pakistanis is because we want to move on and your country has been a drag for us. If Mumbai attacks had not happened, most Indians will not be waging this war on the internet against Pakistanis. We worry that lies can be spread easily and innocent bystanders swept by bias, if we do not step in and provide our side of the argument. Westerners who hold the power in the world today, do not care much about our part of the world. So it is easy to deceive them with misinformation. And they fell for Pakistan’s misinformation against India for decades due to cold war geo-politics. Now we are trying to stem that misinformation that your system and people are trying to spread – for example, the zillion Indian consulates inside Afghanistan, India’s support for BLA and the Taliban itself. Even your irresponsible minister like Rehman Malik is making such statements without offering any credible evidence.

The bottomline is this. The world of today does not trust Pakistan. So you must think hard on what all your people must do to win the trust back. If sincerity is not found, the world will never believe you. As far Indians in this forum and elsewhere, it is our duty to step in and arrest any misinformation and mispropaganda against India and Indians. If you do not want us to do that, then please change your mindset. We do not care about any threats or warnings. We have been here in this region for eons. We know how to handle the situation.

@Do you have any answers why a train full of PAKISTANIS going through indian soil was burnt down brutly?
- Posted by Riz

Mr. Riz: Why don;t you enlighten the Reuter readers about the contribution of ISI for terrorism in India and how many it killed. More specifically, why did Pakistan supported Punjab terrorism in India that lasted for 15yrs? That terrorism killed more than 20,000 lives. Why Pakistan has been supporting terrorism in Kashmir and rest of India?

Why did Pakistan invade Kashmir in 1947 that started all this trouble? Why again in 1965? Why again in Kargil in 1999? Why is it that Pakistan thrusts these wars on others—overt and covert? BTW, this is according to your own media—Ex-Air Chief marshalls Asghar Khan and Noor Khan who blame Pakistan for wars against India–google for the articles in Dawn and Newsweek.

Recently, even Kashmiris from POK officially condemned Pakistan’s 1947 invasion of Kashmir.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/video s/news/Kashmiri-groups-condemn-Pakistans -1947-invasion/videoshow/5153636.cms

@dont you ever dare saying anything about PAKISTAN if you dont have any answers to my questions………Mind it……”
– You bet we will say a lot about Pakistan if there need be. Use civil conversation and off with your bullying. Historically, it has not worked for Pakistan against India.

A simple question to you: Do you think LeT/JeM/Hafiz Saeed/Azhar Mahmood are terrorists? Umair avoid this question, meaning he supports them. I am still open to his answer.

All you say on the consulates is what your ministers say (without proof). How hard it is to get proof if India is messing there against pakistan. But you have gotten used to listen to the baseless accusations by your corrupt leaders (corrupt is the word used by Pakistanis for their political leadership). Pakistan until this moment has zero evidence on India creating problem for Pakistan. India is not doing anything of the sorts. It is no brainer that a Peaceful and stable Pakistan is safer than an unstable one at civil war.
________________________________________ ___________

@Umair: People in Pakistan are mindful, have access to a free media and internet and can decide what is good for them.”
–how many percent pakistanis use internet, excluding terrorists?

@ And your guy’s paranoia with ISI feeding information to Pakistani public is an extreme.”
—you already gave the answer by saying “WHILE YOUR CONCERNS CAN BE GENUINE…” So that gets us back to the question of systematic brainwashing of a generation of Pakistanis by PA generals/ISI to provide the Pakistani public (students K-12) with a distorted history. All that you say is in the background of that prejudices you carry.

@ you think even if there is a flood or storm in India that ISI is behind it
–I am happy you retain your sense of humor even when there are 300 check points in Islamabad up from 72 before the attack on GHQ. I hope the flowers are still blooming in Isloo unless it is the cold weather that is affecting it.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Erdo?an pledges solidarity with Pakistan against terrorism

Calling Pakistan a key country for global stability that is situated at the crossroads of southern, central and western Asia, Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdo?an on Monday voiced confidence in Pakistan’s eventual success in its fight against terrorism.
http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/news-1 91158-erdogan-pledges-solidarity-with-pa kistan-against-terrorism.html

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

“You sound like really fed up against PAK, isn’t it? You are saying lot and lots of words about PAKISTAN and its army pretending all good things belong to may be INDIAN army? Is it what you think?” – Posted by Riz

I & most Indians have nothing against & empathize with the Pakistani people, who have been brain-washed & programmed to blindly follow the Pakistani military establishment, who has single-handedly destroyed your country for it’s own selfish motives & vengeful agenda. The Indian army is simply a defense arm of the Indian Govt & does not control & rule India like it’s Pakistani counterpart, so comparing the 2 doesn’t make much sense.

“You know what, you INDIANS have a problem and your problem is your own media. Your media keeps on misguiding you about other countries like PAKISTAN”

I hardy follow the Indian media as I feel that most of it has a tendency to exaggerate & sensationalize news. I follow the global media & international news, including some from Pakistan like Dawn, which I appreciate.

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive

Mr.Riz:
Before you complain about the ongoing legitimate freedom struggle in Balochistan…..You should close terrorist training camps of LeT, JeM………you should hand over Indian citizen , the Bombay terrorist Dawood Ibrahim who lives with ISI protection in Karachi……….you shoud stop printing Indian currency and its circulation through Nepal….You stop sending terrorists to India to plant bombs in buses, trains and temples……

And why do you talk about events that happened within India when we talk about pakistani terrorism in India?

@Riz: “Why Indian has opened so many consulats just within the border area of Afghanistan with Pakistan? They aid rebel groups in Balochistan as well as to Taliban to create more insurgency in Pakistan”

Another piece of total lies & delusional nonsense that is being shoved down the throats of Pakistanis by the military establishment. Normally, I wouldn’t respond to such outrageous stuff but I’ll do so here in an attempt to clear the cobwebs in your mind. India has 5 consulates in Afghanistan & it is a well documented fact that they are involved in rebuilding Afghanistan’s infrastructure, building schools & colleges & strengthening that country’s institutions. If you have any valid, neutral, verifiable & substantiated source which says that India is behind the insurgency in Baluchistan or involved with the Taliban (this is laughable), please provide it or else never bring up this BS again.

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive

@ Umair: “Today 8 US troops killed in Afghanistan in an explosion, yesterday 14 troops were killed in two seperate helicopter crashes. Additional troops deployment means a surge in fighting and more casualties. Is the American public prepared for this?”

As per today’s NBC/Wall Street Journal/Gallop poll, a majority of americans are in favor of surge in troops in Af/Pak & the support is expected to rise steadily, over the next few months. So, I guess this answers your question.
I know wars have consequences & the Iraq war was certainly a stupid, unnecessary & costly mistake but the war in Af/Pak is a war of necessity & not fighting this war has even more dire consequences (many more 9/11s in the US & around the world). I believe that if we hadn’t ventured into Iraq & taken our focus off from Af/Pak, the picture would’ve been different there. By now, the terror infrastructure in Af/Pak would’ve been dismantled & Bin Laden would’ve met his 72 virgins. So, there’s a growing consensus amongst americans that it is absolutely necessary to finish the job in Af/Pak & anything less would have dire consequences at home, in the long run.

@ “Pakistan can help US negotiate an end of the war with Taliban, Pakistan has the connections and can use them to bring end to conflict. Infact a working group of India, Pakistan, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Russia etc can do this job”

The question that I’d like to be answered is whether the Pakistani army has learned anything from this horrific ordeal, it has subjected it’s people to?
Has it learned the lesson that terrorism shouldn’t be created, nurtured, aided or abetted, no matter who it is directed against?
Is it willing to abandon it’s policy of sponsoring terrorism against it’s neighbors & creating ‘strategic depth’ by getting involved with jihadi & radical outfits with violent agendas?
If the answer to the above questions is in the affirmative, I’ll say that a speedy resolution to a certain degree is likely & the region can become peaceful again BUT (& it’s a big but) if the Pakistani army simply wants the US to back off from the region, so that it can get back to conducting it’s nefarious activities & re-adopt it’s ‘strategic depth’ policy then it’s highly unlikely that a peaceful & amicable resolution is possible.

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive

We are in danger of going off-track again. Some readers have already complained about some of the comments. Please refrain from turning this into a forum for carrying out a one-to-one discussion. There must be another place for that kind of engagement.

Posted by Sanjeev Miglani | Report as abusive

Sanjeev,

If you want to get back on track, then you can with the latest addition to Pakistan’s war within: the car bomb blast in Peshawar. It has killed over 80 people! No group has taken responsibility yet.

If “suicide terror keeps Pakistanis at home (DAWN)” then does this bomb blast mean that they will never venture out?

This attack is going to fly in the face of Zardari et al wherever they are hiding in their secured, presidential palaces. It will wipe that grin off his face that he was practicing in front of a mirror before Hilary Clinton’s visit.

Posted by bulletfish | Report as abusive

Well Mr. Mortel and Mr. Rajeev
On which basis you guys ask me the proofs of what I am saying about consulates of india in Afghanistan? Do you have any proofs about what you are blaming on Pakistan?
Ask for proofs if you can provide some, got it?

Secondly you guys really neglecting what I asked about ATS and just saying the BS you have in your minds……

I know and I do agree on what LeT and other extremist organisations doing in PAKISTAN and involved in other countries and our government and army are after them..These things need time to get wiped off…….our nation is giving so many sacrifies and we are on WAR within our country just to get all other countries away fro such terrorism and still you people blame us?
Our army is after those BS terrorists in Wazirastan and INDIAN embassies on so called infrastructure kind of activities are aiding them with weapons and money…where they are getting so much explosives and weapons? Obviously it is coming from Afghanistan./…if you have consulates for schools and other things there why cant you see weapons going to PAKISTAN beneath your nose??

Is there anyone of you guys either RAJEEV or MORTEL who are so much patriotic having HEART to accept that INDIA is also involved all the time in terrorist activites in PAKISTAN? Nobody talks about TRAIN which was burnt out full of PAKISTANIS…..why? DO you guys have balls to accept those things or not? I did accept that LeT and other organizations are there and we are trying our best to destroy them…but what about you people?

As I said earlier dont you dare to blame anything to PAKISTAN if you dont have answers to TRAIN burning…..and on top of that you are asking for proofs…wow…its not even laughable its danceable……I do agree INDIANS has done really great for their country but it does not give you any right to blame others and think your government as innocent……They are also involved in such activities and accept it now……got it Mr. Rajeev and Mr. Mortel…………….?

Posted by Riz | Report as abusive

ISI nurtured terrorists kill another 95 innocent civilians in Pakistan and injure 300!
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn -content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/metr opolitan/04-explosion-heard-peshawar-qs- 04

When are Pakistanis going to get rid of ISI?

Posted by ANdy | Report as abusive

ISI mentored Talibans roam Pakistan and kill innocents at will, Pak politicians are dead silent and busy hiding them selves. No one has courage to speak against ISI or Taliban!

Who will save innocent civilians from the deadly clutches of ISI or Taliban???

http://blog.dawn.com:91/dblog/2009/10/28  /attacking-our-way-of-life/

Posted by Pooja | Report as abusive

Condolences for the loss of innocent civilian lives in Pakistan!

Hope Pakistanis will rise above and against the ISI, Mullahs and Taliban menace soon!

Posted by Sanjiv | Report as abusive

Riz: “Do you have any proofs about what you are blaming on Pakistan?”

Ajmal Kasab – Mumbai attacks Nov 2008.

Dawood Ibrahim – Mumbai bombing 1993.

Omar Sheikh – IA plane hijack.

To name a few. Two of these are still roaming freely inside Pakistan. Kasab is demanding Biriyani in Indian jail, after having killed many innocents he never knew.
Why has Pakistan shown reluctancy in this case, starting with outright denial first and then employing delay tactics.

@Riz,

you said:

“INDIAN embassies on so called infrastructure kind of activities are aiding them with weapons and money…where they are getting so much explosives and weapons?”

–>Please quit indulging in wild fantasies, victimhood and blame and take responsibility for the country you live in. Feel free to talk sense once in a while.

If you or any body thinks India is doing, something, why has not one person from Pakistan sent India a detailed dossier, with all proofs of so-called Indian activities in Afghanistan. Please do not flatter the Indians, they do not need it.

As for the weapons, there were huge weapons caches left in Afghanistan by Pakistan, the soviets and the U.S. and many weapons are home-made in Pakistani NWFP markets, like RPG and Kalishnikov’s.

I have not heard one Pakistani ever say, “We are screwed up”….”India is not the enemy”…”the enemy is within each of us.”

If you want to see who the enemy is, you can see them in your local masjid, on the street, some of them have beards and white robes, salwar Kameez, some of them wear Pak Army Uniforms. The biggest enemy of Pakistan is its own home grown Islamic Militants, who are funded by your Wahhabi Saudi bretheren.

To suggest that India has a hand with the Taliban, is like concluding that the Taliban (Islamic Teachers) are collaberating with Hindus, to kill muslims, how absurd. Those Taliban if one thing they are not, is traitors to Islam, they would never side with any Hindus for terrorism, they consider Indians and non-muslims to be cockroaches.

Indians are too meek to be indulging in insurgencies and such, if you remember the last three wars, we could have taken Lahore, Punjab in Pakistan, but we decided to leave you alone, because we always handle Pakistan with Kid gloves.

This mayhem is not our doing, we are much too busy shooting for outerspace and the moon, so please check your local Imams and fireband clerics, their associations and oil money and funding will lead you to your enemy, trying to Wahhabi-ize your country.

Posted by GW | Report as abusive

@Riz,

Just remember, there are 700,000 army in Pakistan and why are they still pointing their guns at India, while Wahhabi Cowards attack innocents in your cities.

Your Army is to blame for dragging its feet and not taking the threat seriously. My numerous postings have predicted that the carnage is coming to the cities.

Not one Pakistani on this post had the sense to look past their own need to be right and their own need to hate India.

I said dozens of time, months ago that the internal security in Pakistan and police are very weak that Kashmir War assets need to be transferred and re-allocated to the cities.

What has happened today is sad, but more can be prevented if that 700,000 army was transferred to the cities, where the real fight will be, not with India.

Pakistan has nothing that India wants, feel free to release the Kashmir war assets and resources to the cities, where the militants are taking over.

Posted by GW | Report as abusive

@ Riz : “I know and I do agree on what LeT and other extremist organisations doing in PAKISTAN and involved in other countries and our government and army are after them”

How is your army going after them? By inviting the likes of Hafiz Saeed (who orchestrated the murder of 160 Indian civilians in Mumbai) for dinner parties?
By shielding the likes of Dawood Ibrahim & Azhar Mehmood, who have the blood of thousands of Indians on their hands? Is this the way your army goes after terrorists?

@ “if you have consulates for schools and other things there why cant you see weapons going to PAKISTAN beneath your nose??”

This nonsense is just too moronic & delusional for me to respond to. As I said, if you have a legit source which substantiates any of the above BS, provide it otherwise, I have nothing else for you.

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive

Karzai wouldn’t dare venture outside Kabul without private American contracted security escort. What a shame i really feel sorry for Karzai. Even local tribal chiefs wield more authority than him,
- Posted by Umair

I have heard Kiyani needs 3000 security people when he travels in Rawlpindi or Islamabad. I have also heard that Zardari spent 300 mil to make his palace bullet-proof with imported German glass windows and 12 ft blast-proof walls. Zardari never steps outside his palace unless he is travelling abroad!

So Karzai is doing better than Kiyani or Zardari!

Posted by Soman | Report as abusive

Soman
“I have heard Kiyani needs 3000 security people when he travels in Rawlpindi or Islamabad. I have also heard that Zardari spent 300 mil to make his palace bullet-proof with imported German glass windows and 12 ft blast-proof walls. Zardari never steps outside his palace unless he is travelling abroad!”

-On Monday while driving near the Air HQ in Islamabad I made way for the Chief of Air staff’s motorcade approaching from rear. Many times I come across Gen. Kayani’s motorcade while he is on his way from GHQ to President House in afternoons travelling open in the public. So is the naval Headquarters in Islamabad and the Naval chief travels with even relaxed security while most of time Army and Air chief staff car is accompanied by a decoy vehicle, a military police escort jeep in front with SSG commandoes in between fully armed and an ambulance at rear with medics onboard. Thats it, the total motorcade consists not more than 6 to 8 vehicles 35-50 personnel, including drivers, police personnel, commandoes and medics.
As for the 12 feet blast proof walls around the presidential palace, dont tell me. My workplace is just a few blocks away and i know the security arrangements at the constitution avenue/diplomatic enclave. Apart from security checkpoints and several barricades, there are no blast proof walls around Aiwan-e-Sadar.

Just thought it should clear your misperception since I work in Islamabad and live in Rawalpindi.

There is a big difference between what you hear and what is fact, you are mistaken if you think Pakistan is Iraq or Afghanistan.

How much control does Karzai have in even Kabul, where just yesterday Taliban attacked UN guesthouse and fired rockets at Serena Hotel? How much do international forces have control of areas outside their military cantonments? Southern Afghanistan is controlled by local warlords.
Pakistani cities like Rawalpindi with military headquarters and Islamabad being the capital and Peshawar capital of Northwest have become the frontline in this war against terrorists. Citizens are still bravely going about their daily lives at work and homes, we are at the forefront of this battle, not fearful and determined to prevail.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

…just to add, apart from evicting terrorists from Swat, Army is choking them in Waziristan. What else do terrorists control in Pakistan? They have their way in tribal badlands, but as the Army goes in and settle down, tribal governance will improve and reprisal attacks in cities will recede. Not a bad overall picture in Pakistan.

While Obama has just asked senior officials for a province-by-province analysis of Afghanistan to determine which regions are being managed effectively by local leaders and which require international help, information that his advisers say will guide his decision on how many additional U.S. troops to send to the battle. reference of this report is today’s Washington Post.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive

Well Well Well
As I said in all my posts, NO INDIAN in this forum has replied to my questions on Burnt Train full of Pakistanis and still is the same case……….You guys dont have courage to accept that you also have black sheep…..I do agree we have which are making PAKISTAN’s name bad…..but I just want you guys also to accept it and is there anyone single Indian in this forum has any answers to my quetions about Burnt Train? No one would ever reply to these because you want to close your eyes on this major issue…..
Mr. KP Singh :
If you are so annoyed of Kasab’s demands of Biryani then why dont you hang him? Now dont tell me so called Humanitarian care protection organizations stories due which INDIAN government is not hanging him…….
And what kind of proofs you have about Dawood to be in PAKISTAN? Every single person knows he is in DUBAI…..
Mr. GW:
I am agreed on what you are saying that we have enemies within our own nation…..You are absolutely right that Mullas are using uneducated youth of Pakistan by brain washing them on so called Jihad against their own country men….but tell me what Mullas can do alone? They need money, weapons to carry on their so called Freedom fight against PAKISTANIS and who is providing them all this aid? INDIA…….Because INDIA has double game going on here….I know they are developing way ahead of Pakistan but there is a dedicated group who always thinks about doing something in PAKISTAN to make use of the situation and getting it worst to destablize it….We are weak nation but who is taking advantage of such things? INDIA because they from day 1 after 1947 feel PAKISTAN something irritating in their eyes…That is why they helped in making consiperacies in 1971 to cut eastern part of Pakistan in to Bangladesh….Come on guys nobody in this world is Angel….you are doing good way better than lot lot countries of this world but still you are not cleaned 100%……
Mr. Mortal:
You keep on asking proofs of everything just like you are some kind of Head of Interpol…Mr answer me of Burnt train question? Do you have it?
Now how army handles situation its their headache…sometimes you have to shake hands with your enemy keeping an eye on the situation and when time comes just do what is right…so you dont worry how PAKISTAN army is handling inside situation and try to have a glimpse within your own country…..

So guys get back with your counter attacks…….

Posted by Riz | Report as abusive

Riz:
I am responding to irrelevant issues here.

Having said that,
1. The burden to provide proof of India’s involvement lies with Pakistan. It is not for India to prove its innocence since there is no way that the negative can be proved. I hope you understand this much.

2. India’s role in Pakistan (Baluchistan or Taliban support) is addressed by Manmohan Singh.
Here you go:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india  /PM-denies-India-is-linked-to-Taliban/a rticleshow/5175833.cms

3. There are 4 Indian consulates in Afghanistan:
Mazare-Sharif, Jalalabad, Herat and Kabul–not 5 or more.

4. Pakistani involvement to support terrorism in India is endless and to mention some (in addition to Mumbai case), the hijackers of the Indian Airlines aircraft in 1999 were all from Pakistan (in which Azhar Mahmood and others were released and same Azhar now given a facility in S.Punjab). The identity of the hijackers is: 1. Ibrahim Athar, Bahawalpur; 2. Shahid Akhtar Sayed, Gulshan Iqbal, Karachi; 3. Sunny Ahmed Qazi, Defence Area, Karachi; 4. Mistri Zahoor Ibrahim, Akhtar Colony, Karachi; 5. Shakir, Sukkur City. Their photographs are on Indian embassy:
http://www.indianembassy.org/archive/hij ackers_id.htm

5. You should keep in mind that Samjhauta Express express bomb blast also killed Indian security personals and Indian citizens along with Pakistan citizens. There were some doubts both on Indians and Pakistani elements. CBI investigation is still underway and the probe is still going on (last week they questioned some from a political party) and no one has been proven guilty so far. I hope that satisfies you.

Personally, I am for zero tolerance for each single terrorist group (TTP or LeT) whether against Pak, India, Afghanistan. “Your terrorist is my freedom fighter” theory (Umair is a silent proponent of this theory) is the major reason terrorists have succeeded this much in this region. Selective compassion for pakistani innocents without compassion for Indians or vice-versa is inhuman to say the least. I personally lived through Indian Punjab terrorism and I know how much unpredictable life becomes and the scars it leaves even after terrorism is eradicated. Indians and Afghans have faced these barbarians much before Pakistanis had any clue about terrorism. Pakistan exported terrorism–east and West–while Pakistanis were safe at home. In my view, all these military operations are not enough as long a common man does not develop a zero tolerance policy without selectivity against terrorism/religious fundamentalism, someone in this region will always suffer—may be Afghans, Pakistanis or Indians. Terrorism survives with peoples support and will die without their support.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

correction:

“I am NOT responding to irrelevant issues here.”

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

Rajeev:
Wow look who is stalking here and what he is talking.
When you dont have anything to say then you call it “Irrelevant issue”
Yo really know names and cities of people invilved in Hijacking of Indian plane but you dont have MUCH information about Train burning….Let me tell you why not much info because all names are of INDIAN RAW or ARMY people involved in that incident…..Yes a handfull of Indians got killed in that incident and you really feel sad about it…whereas 99% PAKISTANI DEAD BODIES or burnt bodies are not visible to you…….You people are hopeless because you would never accept your weaknesses or your crimes…Yes you know everything else EXCEPT what INDIA does and then call it IRRELEVANT……..cool justification…isn’t it?

And all those so called PROOFS you are providing here….all are INDIAN organization blogs or news web sites…do you think they are really fair? They are main cause due to which you guys dont know the reality….

And by the way why INDIA needs so called 4 consulates in one country? And also those which you people dont know about…….?
Yes whatever INDIA does its negative and lie…whatever PAKISTAN does not do its still truth………..come on Rajeev its just the wrong info which your media shove down to your throats….accept it……and if you are so very true then provide info about Train burning involvement names just like you provided names of PAKISTANIS involved in INDIAN plane hijacking…but why you need to do that because you damn care if PAKISTANIS die…you would only care if INDIAN casualities are there that is why neither your media provide any info nor you try to get some…………

Posted by Riz | Report as abusive

Riz:

Cool down, I have actually addressed all your points.

@because you damn care if PAKISTANIS die…
–That is what you think and what you think here is wrong. Blowing away innocents is inhuman—anywhere of any nationality.period

I can envision how many lives change by each death that takes place in terrorist attacks. But I cannot shove it down your throat to convince you.

@Airhijacking: This airhijacking was an international issue at that time that contributed greatly in pushing Pakistan almost being declared a terrorist-sponsor by Clinton Admn. That is the same airhijacking where JeM Chief Azhar Mahmood was released (plus 2 more) who ended up killing many in Kashmir, then parliamnent attack, then cutting the head of an American journalist, and now given a kid-friendly facility in South Punjab. All media including Pakistani knows these facts except you pethaps. So much for Pakistan’s anti-terrorism stance!

But from you posts, I gather you are bit behind and need an update. Perhaps it is your teenage–which I think is the issue here. Read more since I am not doing your homework for you.

A thing I missed in last post was that I heard that RAW was involved until 199?, but RAW operations were officially and openly shut down by ex-PM Gujral which coincided with eradication of terrorism in Indian Punjab. I am very receptive to know of anything more/artcile etc if you have anything other than the official statements to offer here for India/RAW involvement in Pakistan.

We have discussed it quite a bit and suggest getting back to the topic “Pak’s war within” unless you want posts trashed away.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive

can some one tell me why individuals from pakistan and india argue with each other in internet, news papers and tv takshows etc. and give the impression that they are best of friends. and this is inspite of the fact that india has humiliated pakistan in the battle ground several times and as yet there is no peace agreement between the countries. is it something to do with the leaders of the respective countries whereas the people probably want peace and friendship.

Posted by rex minor | Report as abusive

Rajeev:
Whatever you say, you never answered my only one question to you and all Indians participating in this discussion and that question is about SAMJHOTA TRAIN burnt down brutly by some Hindu extremists involving even some ARMY people and one of those was actually caught by ATS chief which was killed in Mumbai attacks?
Dont tell me how to do my homework as you yourself never do yours completely by giving my answers.
Nothign else I havve to say……..

Posted by Riz | Report as abusive

Let’s face it, we are at war. The ridiculous arguments about the terrorists only targeting government establishments, or it is the West’s war, it’s a Jihad against infidels, etc, were blown to smithereens last Wednesday afternoon in Peshawar’s Meena Bazaar. The powerful car bomb, which ripped through the thickly-congested market place — a favourite shopping area of lower and middle class families in particular — showed that it is a war with terrorists standing on one side of the blood line, and we the people on the other.

http://ahraza.wordpress.com/2009/11/02/w e-must-declare-state-of-war/

Can anyone of you change what prevails within each country by arguing over forums? You can’t change anything unless you change yourselves. Stop blaming each other for the past. There is no right or wrong. Both countries made mistakes in the past.
Look within yourself. You,you demand peace? I think,not. The present and the future is made up of people like yourselves. Think intelligent and think wise. As democrats you can have an opinion,but to practically impose it you need to act rather than throw blames back and forth over public forums. Act like realistic men/women and fight for your defense in the real world.

Posted by Jennifer Khan. | Report as abusive

Message to Riz:

With all due respect, I think you are being highly immature here. Bringing up the Samjhauta express in every one of your posts is not helping your case. Samjhauta express is still being investigated and there have been many speculations. On one hand There is the Hindu extremism angle to it. But on the other hand there are also reports coming out (even from the USA, which has named some Pakistanis such as Arif Qasmani, affiliated with LeT), that there may be a Pakistani/Muslim extremist angle to it. Let the investigation proceed, and if it is proven that Indians are behind it, then we’ll talk.

People like you claim that Hindu extremists are behind the Samjhauta express attack, and that the Indian government is trying to hide it. Well I’d like to remind you that many Indians and Hindus were killed in that attack. Also, the Godhra incident. Hindus claim that Muslims burnt a train carrying Hindu Pilgrims (which then led to post-Godhra Riots), and there are many eye witnesses which claim the same. However the Indian government hasn’t done anything about it. Should Hindus start saying that the government is protecting Muslim extremists?

That being said, there is no denying that Hindu extremism exists in India. Of course it does, just like extremists (white supremists) also exist in USA. However that is not the debate here, as the Hindu extremists are not tearing the country apart. Moreover, the Hindu extremists in India have never attacked India, whereas the Jihadis in Pakistan have vowed to bleed India to death.

SO lets stop talking about Samjhauta express, ok?

The problem is in Pakistan. Pakistan has been supporting terrorists since the beginning of its existence. And THAT is why India hates Pakistan, and THAT is why India got itself involved in 1971 (another reason would be that huge number of refugees were pouring into India thanks to the genocide being carried out by Pakistan army).

Operation Gibraltar, for example, in the 1960s was done by Pakistan to create anti-India sentiment in Indian Kashmir. However, it failed. But Pakistan kept at it, created violence in Kashmir, carried out terror attacks, etc. For this reason we went to war in the 1960s. After this Pak learned that they cannot beat India, so they even established jihadi elements in East Pakistan (Bangladesh) to weaken India from both sides and create terror throughout India. For this reason India found it beneficial to use 1971 to break off east Pakistan, and thus try to get rid of the jihadi threat from there (this plan was only partially successful, as many jihadi groups with links to ISI still exist in Bangladesh).

India doesn’t hate Pakistan because of partition. It’s because ever since 1947, you guys have been creating trouble in our country. It was you guys who initially invaded Kashmir in 1947. India only came into the picture after the Maharaja and Abdullah asked India for help.

Personally speaking, I would be glad if India was helping Balochi separatists. Give Pakistan a taste of its own medicine, and it would probably help take Pakistan’s mind off of Kashmir.

But I know India wouldn’t get itself into that mess; it is too busy trying to become a superpower and contain Chinese aggression.

But it’s ok. The way things are going, Pakistan will destroy itself. It needs no external enemies. It’s enemies are within. And all of those who do not recognize that their real enemies are within (practically all Pakistanis) are all responsible for Pakistan’s self destruction.

So you can put false accusations on India all you want. Its not effecting us. It’s you guys who are suffering from this ignorance.

Posted by Rahul | Report as abusive