Comments on: Bombs and tipping points: Pakistan and Northern Ireland http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2009/10/30/bombs-and-tipping-points-pakistan-and-northern-ireland/ Perspectives on Pakistan Thu, 01 Oct 2015 19:31:05 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=4.2.5 By: rajeev http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2009/10/30/bombs-and-tipping-points-pakistan-and-northern-ireland/comment-page-1/#comment-25246 Thu, 05 Nov 2009 00:05:45 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=4076#comment-25246 To add,

@Again international politics to understand is way beyond the reach of people like us. Yes there are problems but the reality is no one angel.
– Posted by casper hughes

-True, everyone has blood on their hands but the degree varies. The difference is much like a pickpocket and a serial killer. There has to be a basket of positives.

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By: rajeev http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2009/10/30/bombs-and-tipping-points-pakistan-and-northern-ireland/comment-page-1/#comment-25244 Thu, 05 Nov 2009 00:01:26 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=4076#comment-25244 Casper:

You said 8 consulates and I said 4, the correct # is 5 including Kandhar, as you found out and I confirmed. But I was closer.

I do not gave to be a pilot to know the truth or know the distance (it is easy from google any way), but just be aware of the information from correct sources. And I am talking based on reliable sources–Ahmed Rashid–Pakistani journalist who knows the region like the back of his hand. He mentions in his book “Descent into Chaos” and I trust his sources. Hey, the airlifting was called “operation evil lift” by Americans when they learned what happened and by Pakistani generals “operation great escape”. Read up. Also read another one of his on Taliban to help you get back into little real world. I do not believe in cock and bull stories nor in excuses. Reasons yes.

@Yes Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and UAE did provide support to Taliban, so don’t you think they are also involve in this conflict>”
–Then why do I never hear you say even once that a Pakistani also messed it up upfront like Hillary is doing about US. Is pakistan sitting only to take credit like throwing soviets out. You are quick to point at other 2 friends Saudis and UAE and nothing on Pakistan!

@It will be silly to say that Pakistan helped Taliban just to have problems in its boundaries.”
–No. But Pakistanis were myopic and they still are. If they know the fallouts they will not do but they do not believe in monster you create biting back. It is clear to me, but not to you yet that pakistan has not changed. You will have to wait bit long before they spell it out for you that they still have not changed.

Who does not say it is not complex. US admits faults what is the problem with Pakistan.

India and Afghanistan is between the two of them and India is sitting with consent of the leaders—Abdullah or Karzai are both OK with India.

@Indian military. Indians need ITBP for the protection of its workers in Afghanistan from Taliban and ISI (reference to Kabul embassy bombing). So nothing surprising there. Chinese are in Africa with consent and Indians are in Afghanistan with consent not unwanted guests like Pakistan who created Taliban which decapitated people in soccer stadiums and which you will perhaps call law and order and peace to Afghans by a good govt.
@RAW desk in Afghanistan: Yes sure and I will be unhappy and rest all spy agencies will be shocked if RAW was absent in Afghanistan. Relevant question is what RAW is doing. Is it scheming to destroy someone or for intelligence information? ISI is in India without desk and RAW will be in Pakistan and that’s what human intelligence if for. As long as they do not blow innocents that is fair game.

Ever wondered why all Afghans hate Pakistan. Think about it.

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By: casper hughes http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2009/10/30/bombs-and-tipping-points-pakistan-and-northern-ireland/comment-page-1/#comment-25235 Wed, 04 Nov 2009 22:32:09 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=4076#comment-25235 Well Rajeev, I appreciate your input. You have changed the topic completely. You have the right to say what ever you feel. You talked about all those meetings in India have nothing to do with Afghanistan or Pakistan. I understand you are passionate Indian who believe that nothing planned in these meetings. I respect that but reality is far from what you believe. I don’t need to be there what happened in these meetings, there are different ways to find which I won’t go into detail.

2nd you said there are only 4 consulates offices just one example is Kandahar that you forgot to mention and there are 13 so called “Information Centers“. But each fake “Consulate” has “RAW DESK“, and each “Information center” has “Sub-sections” and “Desks”. In addition the Indian companies that are working in Afghanistan allow the Indian RAW agencies open access to the facilities and the offices. Just Kandhar is very much involve what is happening in Baluchistan Pakistan.You may need to update your information it is too old and may need to update from your foreign office.

3rd you talked about India is there just for trade benefits, just tell me what kind of industry is in Afghanistan. It is a part of game reaching to central Asian states, Afghanistan for their resources and specially creating problems for Pakistan that is the goal. There are more than 10000 Indian soldiers in Afghanistan even it is accepted by Indian government. Do you think they are there to protect just 4 Indian consulates or couple of Indian company offices?. You also talked about what Afghanistan got from Pakistan?,

It is their freedom from Soviet union and there is no greater blessing than freedom and please don’t tell me that nothing happened in Pakistan during Soviet period and how much they sacrificed.

By the way do you even know who these Talibans are? they are Afghan’s and the children of 5 million people who migrated to Pakistan. I have never said Taliban are good. They were different when they first entered into Afghanistan, but with the passage of time they got corrupted and alligned with A-Q.

Yes ISI may be in touch with some of the Taliban groups but ISI was never involved With A-Q activities. Some groups may be involve there but Pakistan’s intention was never to get involve with A-Q and for what so US, India and NATO forces can come to Afghanistan. This assertion is just rubbish.

Pakistan just wanted a peaceful neighbor in its back yard is case of any conflict. what do Pakistan get if Afghanistan is in ciaos. America, India and other countries in its back yard.

I don’t need to remind you how many problems India have with its neighbors starting from Pakistan, China, Sirilanka , Burma, Maldives and Nepal because of the current Government there. So please don’t tell us that Pakistan is the problem.

bye the way may I ask were you a pilot of one of the flights that took so called all the ISI agents from do you even know how far is Kabul from Lundikotal.I guess not.

Yes Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and UAE did provide support to Taliban, so don’t you think they are also involve in this conflict. That is what I tried to explain earlier, It is Taliban them selves to be blames because of their act and Pakistan don’t have much influence there. It was never their intention to support A-Q but just like I said there are many groups of Taliban involve. It will be silly to say that Pakistan helped Taliban just to have problems in its boundaries.

Regarding Hilary Clinton, she said Pakistan may have knowledge of some the people, but did she said Pakistan provided support to attack any western countries.Now even new statement came from Hilary that US is responsible to push A-Q into Pakistan. Yes Pakistan may have knowledge but not with the intention of providing support so these elements can attack Western countries but just like I said earlier their intention is to make sure they have influence in their back yard Just watch sooner or later there will be power vac um in Afghanistan and those will help during this period.

Now the main question arises what do Pakistan get from so called this hell in its back yard. To my knowledge

1-Thousands of lives lost including women, children and government officials
2-economy in ruin
3-infaltion
4-lack of security
5- highest rate of bombing than any where in the world
6-social problems
and So on

That is what Pakistan got from Taliban and Afghanistan.
and to believe that only ordinary Taliban and Afghan’s have this ability to destabilize Pakistan, ya then you live in dreams.

Again international politics to understand is way beyond the reach of people like us. Yes there are problems but the reality is no one angel.

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By: Eric http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2009/10/30/bombs-and-tipping-points-pakistan-and-northern-ireland/comment-page-1/#comment-25185 Wed, 04 Nov 2009 01:13:08 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=4076#comment-25185 Casper: “In Pakistan buying alliance from some of the tribes is not difficult.So now there are two groups of Taliban, one who is not waging war but fighting with NATO forces in Afghanistan and 2nd who is sponsored by Western and Indian intelligence waging war in Pakistan.”

Those are some pretty heavy allegations. Would you care to list your sources so it can be determined that your claims are accurate? Somehow I doubt it.

By the way, even assuming that Taliban in Pakistan ARE sponsored by the CIA/Indian intelligence, wouldn’t that be all the more reason for the Pakistani Army to fight them? Based on your allegations your country’s army are doing the people of Pakistan a great service–fighting foreign-backed terrorists.

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By: rajeev http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2009/10/30/bombs-and-tipping-points-pakistan-and-northern-ireland/comment-page-1/#comment-25179 Tue, 03 Nov 2009 23:38:35 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=4076#comment-25179 Ireland vs Pakistan comparisons are good for academic interests and have no other use.

Casper:
Thanks for your insights. And there was nothing in there. It was just unsophisticated addition to already going-on anti-RAW/CIA/Mossad chatter which some good Pakistanis media is trying to tackle. This good Pakistani media is telling people like you and many other gullible Pakistanis to start looking at things differently and to Pakistan elites to start taking blame rather than accusing others and stop seeing enemy lurking behind the door. But this media obviously is fighting a losing battle. The clarity with which people like you see India/US/NATO alliance in bringing war into Pakistan makes me think as if you were a fly on the wall in that meeting if at all it happened in India or were standing outside the room with ear pasted against the door. Fly on the wall obviously you were not, but where does this leave you in your strong belief of foreign forces tearing apart Pakistan?

@It is rubbish to say they (RAW, CIA) are not involved, they are very much involve in Afghanistan, only what India is doing in Baluchistan and tribal areas of Pakistan with its 8 consulate offices in Afghanistan.”
–But isn’t it rubbish to say that they are involved, especially when you do not even know that India has 4 consulates not 8 in Afghanistan—Herat, Jalalabad, Mazare-Sharif, Kabul but you are much better than those who say 20-40 consulates.

@Do we need to assume they are there for ordinary Afghanistan people no way, every one knows why are they here.”
-I can tell you about India. India is doing non-military work and has spent over 1 billion dollars in Afghanistan at the risk of your friends Taliban retaliation. Relationship between two countries will be much stronger if they are for mutual benefits (rather than altruism). India and Afghanistan both benefit for Indian presence in Afghanistan. I ask you this: what did Afghans and Afghanistan gained when Pakistan was in Afghanistan? The gains were in negative.

@ Although US with the help of other intelligence agencies is able to change the mood of ordinary person in Pakistan that Taliban’s are bad but at what cost.”
–Oh, so you think Taliban is good. That’s a gem. If US et al are really involved then they are not doing job because you still think Taliban are good—even after they blow Pakistani men/women/security and take blame for it. But you without any basis will blame India and US and others to break Pakistan.

@It is unfortunate Alqaeda was in Afghanistan, but Pakistan had nothing to do with it. Pakistan was trying to make sure that they have peaceful neighbor in their backyard in case of War with India, so they don’t need to worry about that border.”
–pakistan had everything to do with A-Q. Isn’t it rubbish to say that ISI did not have anything to do with OBL Inc. when ISI was running Taliban operations and Taliban was the host for Al-qaida. How come ISI stayed clean of Al-Qaida links is something that one has to wonder.

You are saying it so clearly that Pakistan was using Afghanistan for its own purpose against India. Was Pakistan making Afgh peaceful? No, only Pakistanis were peaceful and thought the rest of the world including neighbors are also peaceful.

@ It is unfortunate the Taliban’s there took advantage of Pakistan’s hospitality and allied with bad people.”
–Oh, just like that? So Pakistan was a host in a foreign nation-Afghanistan and Taliban which is from Afgh is your guest? —which logic you have been using? This is the reason Pakistan is out of that place now. In any case, it was Saudi money and Pak/Saudis/UAE support to Taliban that ran that terrorist govt. and everything moved with ISI permission at that time. Terrorist camps were shared by host of terrorist organizations including some which Pakistan was training against India. It took 2 nights airlifting to get all the ISI/Pak guys out from Afghanistan before USA started its anti-Taliban mission post-9/11. But Pakistani picked the terrorists too and have been hiding them somewhere, as Hillary Clinton directly stated.

So far you have been putting blame on Taliban (when it is convenient), USA, India, NATO and have been showing Pakistan as a victim. Now do one thing and ask what Pakistan’s role was in turning this region into hell? That’s where the reason of this instability lies.

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By: brian http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2009/10/30/bombs-and-tipping-points-pakistan-and-northern-ireland/comment-page-1/#comment-25125 Tue, 03 Nov 2009 00:59:54 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=4076#comment-25125 Well when you’ve got a previously convicted super-criminal in power in Pakistan there’s not going to be much hope for keeping the country united..
US pressure on the corrupt leader of Pakistan to fix America’s problem in Afghanistan is going to turn the whole region into a war zone.
You watch it’s happening right now.

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By: casper http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2009/10/30/bombs-and-tipping-points-pakistan-and-northern-ireland/comment-page-1/#comment-25119 Mon, 02 Nov 2009 22:45:40 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=4076#comment-25119 I have been reading all the comments posted. Some of them with good points but some bias.Before we really assume or conclude the reason, I think the reality on the ground is worth thinking about.

To some extent we can compare Pakistan and Ireland where killing of innocent civilians especially women and children are involved but other than that it is a completely different story.

The history tells us Afghanistan and adjacent (tribal ares) ares of Pakistan were never under the rule of any Government, they were governed by loose alliances of different tribes but not outside rulers.

When United States left Afghanistan after the Soviet war these ares were in ciaos like situation, submerged by war between different groups has ravaged the entire Afghanistan. Pakistan has been effected since 1979 when the Soviets first entered the area to reach and capture warm waters of Arabian sea. I do not need to remind everybody what happened during that period in Pakistan and for any doubts, just read history.After Afghanistan, Pakistan was the second effected country in this regional conflict.

During soviet and after their defeat Pakistan has no other option to get involve in Afghanistan with more than 5 millions Afghan migrants on its soil.

It is just recently accepted by US politicians that they also bear the responsibility for current situation in Afghanistan. After 9 11 when US finally realized that Afghanistan should have been dealt with but it was already too late the damage was already in place and now the only question is how to curtail the situation. When US tried to control Afghanistan with its ongoing war in Iraq. It was not easy to bring Afghanistan back to peace.

After all the efforts by NATO and US the peace seems to be a distance target. They were lucky to found an valuable partner in the shape of India because of its geographical positions and situation in that area. It is all open how many times the US and NATO intelligence officials visited India. The strategy came out of those meetings is to bring the war in Pakistan. With the help of Indian and some other intelligence agencies the best strategy is to create war in Pakistan.

By doing this the intention is to divert the Pakistan’s attention to its own problems, So ISI Pakistan’s intelligence agency will not concentrate in Afghanistan.

In Pakistan buying alliance from some of the tribes is not difficult.So now there are two groups of Taliban, one who is not waging war but fighting with NATO forces in Afghanistan and 2nd who is sponsored by Western and Indian intelligence waging war in Pakistan. It is posted by different people that that RAW, CIA or some of the other western intelligence agencies has nothing to do. It is rubbish to say they are not involved, they are very much involve in Afghanistan, only what India is doing in Baluchistan and tribal areas of Pakistan with its 8 consulate offices in Afghanistan. Do we need to assume they are there for ordinary Afghanistan people no way, every one knows why are they here.

Now the government is Afghanistan which is hostile to Pakistan. It was easy to get RAW, CIA, and KHAD on the same board, the purpose is to destabilize Pakistan. Some of my friend who posted their comments here may agree with me, but this is reality.

The international politics’s is a great chess game that is way beyond ordinary person to understand. US is on one hand helping Pakistan by providing financial assistance but at the same time providing support to some of the hostile groups in the Pakistan. According to my information there are hundreds of millions are poured into this area to create problems. It is very interesting US is trying to show good face here in Pakistan but everyone knows history. Although US with the help of other intelligence agencies is able to change the mood of ordinary person in Pakistan that Taliban’s are bad but at what cost.

It is unfortunate Alqaeda was in Afghanistan, but Pakistan had nothing to do with it. Pakistan was trying to make sure that they have peaceful neighbor in their backyard in case of War with India, so they don’t need to worry about that border. It is unfortunate the Taliban’s there took advantage of Pakistan’s hospitality and allied with bad people.

Now Afghanistan is mess because of so many powers are trying to have their influence in the region. Pakistan because of its ethnicity like in Afghanistan and long history of involvement during Soviet era is in best position to influence. It is true any power with its agenda and stake cannot completely control Afghanistan unless they deal with Pakistan. The question is how and why and to answer this question I leave it to you.

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By: Dr. O. P. Sudrania http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2009/10/30/bombs-and-tipping-points-pakistan-and-northern-ireland/comment-page-1/#comment-25114 Mon, 02 Nov 2009 19:45:44 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=4076#comment-25114 Prof Dawkins’ comment is understandable, being an atheist.
I shall not like to digress from my real issue.

Coming to Keith’s observation, I did have some chance to see and observe the IRA activities during my stay in Scotland. I agree with him but there are some other diferences too. I did not go in length to save digresion and needless comparison between two totally diferent and dissimilar problems. You can not or should not start a comparison between one domestic cat and one wild cat. Either compare a pair of domestic cats or a pair of wild cats. That may make some better sense, as I put it simplistically.

Other problem is that India is a unique country, where the
majority is taken in account (I mean the votes, not the people) during election vote counts. For the rest of time,
the majority (this time I mean the people, not the number) not only remain marginalised, it is communal to talk of, but it is secular if you talk of an individual name of a minority section. Can you give me a name of another nation similar on this account? I can not think of. Yet nobody in this nation seems to be happy – neither the minority, nor the majority.

What a paradoxical social phenomenon?

Dr. O. P. Sudrania

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By: Keith http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2009/10/30/bombs-and-tipping-points-pakistan-and-northern-ireland/comment-page-1/#comment-25054 Sun, 01 Nov 2009 15:13:49 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=4076#comment-25054 Unlike the Irish terror groups, the Pakistani groups undertake attacks and then blame RAW, Mossad, the CIA, etc. and the best part of this tale is that eager Pakistanis believe them because they can’t accept that Muslims would kill Muslims. With this explanation in place, pulic support for the jihadists will remain in place. To paraphrase Golda Meier, as long as Pakistanis hate India, the US, infidels, etc. More than they care for their own, there can be no peace. After all, are Pakistanis really willing to crackdown on the same guys they cheer on when those dying are Western troops or Indian civilians? The Irish always cared more about themselves than killing Brits. That’s the difference.

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By: azad http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2009/10/30/bombs-and-tipping-points-pakistan-and-northern-ireland/comment-page-1/#comment-25040 Sun, 01 Nov 2009 03:10:28 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=4076#comment-25040 Religion has a lot to answer for.

– Posted by Dawkins

need a correction here
some religions have a lot to answer for.

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