Comments on: Pakistan, India and 1971 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2009/11/04/pakistan-india-and-1971/ Perspectives on Pakistan Thu, 01 Oct 2015 19:31:05 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=4.2.5 By: rajeev http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2009/11/04/pakistan-india-and-1971/comment-page-4/#comment-25753 Fri, 13 Nov 2009 17:52:57 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=4131#comment-25753 correction to my post to Quadir:
“I will chose NOT to discuss the details for good reasons.”

Moderator: I will appreciate you uploading my 2 posts on the blog.

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By: rajeev http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2009/11/04/pakistan-india-and-1971/comment-page-4/#comment-25752 Fri, 13 Nov 2009 17:50:14 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=4131#comment-25752 Quadir:

@71 was bound to happen sooner or later, partly due to incompetent politics and partly due to the ill-feeling of Bengalis towards people from the Western parts of the subcontinent; prior to the British, under 500 years for FOREIGN muslim rule under which east bengalis were always treated with disdain due to their being `dirty`and ùncivilized`; they saw Pakistan as a continuation of that even thouugh they voted in favour of that state
Posted by Quadir

—-I appreciate you recognizing the problem of 1971 and actually coming forward to say it on the blog.

@in general, bengali mindset is not suited to living in an Islamic Republic…I just wanted to say let bygones be bygones…we should focus on our current problems, the biggest of which is the Indian govt”
——That will not be the case if the concept of co-existence is understood and put into action. Muslims in the region because of their original faith and regional/language flavor are different–be that India or Pakistan. So saying “bengali mindset is not suited to living in an Islamic Republic” is not understanding the problem and throws into trash your original confession of discrimination by W. Pakistan. The real problem is that the Islamic Republic does not have room to all the Muslims, just some. We are not even talking about bigger problem of other religious minorities and Ahmediyas. Islamic Republic of Pakistan has not been able to justify the white color in the flag—your above statement is an evidence in that direction. This also kills 2 nation theory concept if only certain Muslims are suited for Muslim nation.
Also, you are wrong that India is Pak’s biggest problem. What I hear from Pakistan’s own media is that Pakistan itself is its own problem.

@discrimination against low castes, sikhs, muslims, occupation of MUSLIM Kashmir, disputes with all its neighbours including Nepal…to the Indians need I say more…
–I do not know why this has any relevance here to the core issue of 1971 India-Pak. We do not say that anyone is not suited for India. I will chose to discuss the details for good reasons.

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By: Quadir http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2009/11/04/pakistan-india-and-1971/comment-page-4/#comment-25716 Fri, 13 Nov 2009 03:34:28 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=4131#comment-25716 71 was bound to happen sooner or later, partly due to incompetent politics and partly due to the ill-feeling of Bengalis towards people from the Western parts of the subcontinent; prior to the British, under 500 years for FOREIGN muslim rule under which east bengalis were always treated with disdain due to their being `dirty`and ùncivilized`; they saw Pakistan as a continuation of that even thouugh they voted in favour of that state

in general, bengali mindset is not suited to living in an Islamic Republic…I just wanted to say let bygones be bygones…we should focus on our current problems, the biggest of which is the Indian govt

discrimination against low castes, sikhs, muslims, occupation of MUSLIM Kashmir, disputes with all its neighbours including Nepal…to the Indians need I say more…

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By: rajeev http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2009/11/04/pakistan-india-and-1971/comment-page-4/#comment-25672 Wed, 11 Nov 2009 18:01:09 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=4131#comment-25672 I want to make some points:

1. If one has to pick the single most important issue of 1971. It will not be that Bangladesh and Pakistan reunite, it will not be that India apologize for 1971, it will not even be actually Pakistan apologize to Bangladesh (38 yrs late apology will help but is not a real aplology much like justice delayed is justice denied).

The most important issue will be that Pakistanis realize that the ill treatment of E. Pakistan by W Pakistan since independence was the problem which precipitated when the result of the first genuine elections in Pakistan were rejected and the transfer of political power to E. Pakistan was not allowed. Pakistan generals know it —the problem is the public drum beating and that allows them to not aplogize). Pak media apologized some time ago and public learn from that.

2. Many times I see 26/11 as a reference of terrorism in India. I want to EMPHASISIZE here that Terrorism in India has 25yrs old history. Many unfamiliar with the region asociate terrorism in India to 26/11 Mumbai attack–it just got international theater just because of the nature of it and the foreign nationals.

3. Indians have a lot at stake in Pakistan—the biggest one is India’s own stability. Needless to say, it works if the relation is reciprocal and Pakistan(is) need to realize this.

4. @Ganesh: Alethia has her own views and her voice and opinion is not a typical Western. So saying what she says through the the western prizm is misleading, unless I missed something.

5. @Alethia, I have no problem with you being pro-Pak. I am for discussing the points you make. Talking about hurt feelings of W.Pakistan is not helping them in the real world. “Hurt” is a hindrance to Kashmir resolution, another issue that you are worried about. “Bleeding by thousand cuts” is Pakistan’s way to get over the “hurt feelings” and terrorism in India is not about Kashmiris.

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By: Raj http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2009/11/04/pakistan-india-and-1971/comment-page-4/#comment-25671 Wed, 11 Nov 2009 16:19:06 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=4131#comment-25671 @Alethia
Again not sure why my last post is not being posted.

Alethia writes- “Of course I am against that kind of terrorism as I am against all terrorism”

She uses the same code language used by pak sponsors of terrorism to justify their actions!!. Are you implying India is indulging in some type of terrorism? why don’t you clarify?

Alethia writes- “I support innocent Pakistani people from being blamed for that”

“Innocent” paks have looked the other way, and smugly paying donations to terrorist organizations such as LeT!

@Ganesh
The problem with your suggestion of pakistan should play second fiddle to India is it wouldn’t work …because it undermines the very foundation of “Pakistan ideology”. A secular, more powerful India does not fit with that ideology.

Pakistan was supposed to be the stronger, glorious inheritor of muslim empires. The ideology of founding fathers of India was to move beyond old history, and build a new modern identity. We have been mostly successful.

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By: Alethia http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2009/11/04/pakistan-india-and-1971/comment-page-4/#comment-25667 Wed, 11 Nov 2009 13:32:03 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=4131#comment-25667 Dear Ganesh, GW, Rajeev,Shastri,Avatar, Mortal, Keith, others, and our esteemed author, Myra:

Looks like we have covered at least all the bases here in our common concern for the well being of all the people of India, Pakistan and Bangladesh. The exchange is always enlightening for me.

I’ve been asked many times to reassure you that I am against terrorism, especially emanating from Pakistan. Of course I am against that kind of terrorism as I am against all terrorism.

I support innocent Pakistani people from being blamed for that as I support innocent Indian people for being blamed for any untoward incidents happening in their country.

Pakistan is part of the mosaic of the lovely and unique cultures that exist in the Indian Subcontinent. You and they should be together, not as one country, but in tandem with one another. That is my fervent hope.

I would like to remind ourselves that with due respect to the author of this article, and with grave remembrance of all who suffered and perished in the events of 1971, we should remember them, pray for them, and wish them peace of mind, reconciliation and justice, and above all, forgiveness.

Thinking it’s time to end my participation here until Myra’s next article…

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By: Ganesh Prasad http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2009/11/04/pakistan-india-and-1971/comment-page-4/#comment-25665 Wed, 11 Nov 2009 13:13:18 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=4131#comment-25665 Zahid,

If the string ‘CHAFAC’ means anything to you, we need to get back in touch :-). Use my old name (the one with initials, dots and surname) and suffix with gmail.com to get my email address.

Regards,
Ganesh

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By: Ganesh Prasad http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2009/11/04/pakistan-india-and-1971/comment-page-4/#comment-25660 Wed, 11 Nov 2009 09:21:31 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=4131#comment-25660 Alethia,

I’ve been reading the responses from Indians to your well-meaning comments, and I think I can explain the Indian indignation at what you may believe to be fairness on your part.

There is a parallel to this discussion in the Non-Aligned Movement that started in 1955 and lasted till the end of the Cold War. This was a group of countries that tried to stay neutral between the superpowers. The US (at least initially) was offended that there could be people who would see a moral equivalence between Communism and Democracy, because it was clear to them that their position was morally superior. But for the NAM members, it was a matter of survival and Realpolitik in the face of two hostile superpowers.

In much the same way, Indians cannot understand the even-handedness with which Westerners try to approach the India-Pakistan issue. To Indians, it’s very clear who has the moral high ground. Between a “responsible democracy” and a “state sponsor of terror”, there’s really no comparison.

My cynical take on this is that this neutrality is an outcome of Realpolitik and India can only sway opinion its way through Realpolitik. If the Indo-Pak impasse continues for another decade, the economic gap between the two countries will widen to the extent that third parties will see it in their interests to align with India. The neutrality of the West will end (is already ending, in fact) when India’s displeasure has real economic consequences for them. Until that time, people will not take sides.

True, Pakistan will continue to have its nukes, but unless it turns its economy around in the meantime, it may find itself in the same position as Libya, i.e., of having to abjure the use of nuclear weapons, allowing international inspections, etc., in exchange for economic relief. There is a limit to how long people will be prepared to eat grass.

My fervent hope is that some hothead in a position of power in Pakistan doesn’t decide that it’s better for the subcontinent to go out in a blaze of glory than for Pakistan to take the path of peaceful coexistence and accept the subordinate position to India that it may imply at that stage.

It would be good for Pakistanis to understand that with only 10% of India’s population, it is no shame to rank below India as an Asian power. They should rather compare themselves to a region within India such as South India or the Northeastern states. That would be a far fairer comparison and it would be quite achievable for Pakistan to match or exceed the economic performance of an Indian region.

Ganesh

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By: GW http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2009/11/04/pakistan-india-and-1971/comment-page-4/#comment-25649 Wed, 11 Nov 2009 03:43:04 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=4131#comment-25649 @Alethia,

Your words are the right things to say. Although no Paks here are still dismissive about terrorism and the horrors of 1971 hopefully average people will there one day be willing to look at their true history and make amends with it. It does not still appear that any time soon that they are willing to even try.

The issue that I have with your stand is that you seem to be letting Pakistan off, with kid gloves and make glorious motherhood statements like “we should just all get along”…I agree in principle…BUT…time and again the Pakistani establishment has show dishonesty. They, the Paks started all 4 wars upon India, while India defended itself each time and repelled all of them.

Fundamentally, India and Pakistan after 60 years, despite the numerous similarities on many levels, there remain core fundamental differences in the psyche and mentality of both parties.

Pakistan mistreats its ethnicities like the Pashtuns, the Balochi’s, Hindus and Christians, I won’t go into the details and other fronts, but you blindly advocate forgiveness and moving on, without addressing core fundamental issues. The biggest one is that Pakistan, as a whole, does not value HUMAN life the way that the Indian psyche does.

What is your stand on Pakistani proxy terrorism against India, should we just give Pakistan a free ride and let them do as they please?

You talk co-operation…India and Pak were talking peace, but on the other hand, LeT was planning carnage on unarmed Civilians in Mumbai, with what many think is support of ISI. What are we to do with such a neighbour, invite them into our house and enjoy some Chai and Dosa together and have our house put on fire, after they enjoy the hospitality?

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By: GW http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2009/11/04/pakistan-india-and-1971/comment-page-4/#comment-25641 Tue, 10 Nov 2009 23:54:53 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=4131#comment-25641 @Alethia,

BTW, I feel horrible for the innocents suffering from militants there. But will you realize for a moment that most Pak citizens are still dismissive about the militants and rather embrace crazy conspiracy stories to explain away every ill that they cannot contain or control?

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