Pakistan poll shows support for offensive, but U.S. blamed

November 4, 2009

A narrow majority of Pakistanis support the army’s offensive in South Waziristan, but many still believe Pakistan is fighting “America’s war”, according to a Gilani Research Foundation poll conducted by Gallup Pakistan.

In the poll, conducted in the last week of October, 51 percent supported the offensive, 13 percent opposed it and 36 percent were unsure. A majority held the United States and Pakistan’s own government –rather than the Taliban – responsible for the situation which required the offensive in the first place.

And in a country where many believe the government and army are being pushed to follow America’s bidding, in part to bolster the U.S. position in Afghanistan, 39 percent of respondents said the military was fighting ”America’s war”, while 37 percent said it was fighting Pakistan’s own war.

The researchers said 36 percent of respondents were hopeful the operation would bring peace, 37 percent believed it would worsen the situation and 27 percent were unsure.

Pakistani ambivalence about tackling Islamist militants has undermined efforts to rally the country against them, despite a spate of gun and bomb attacks in the country’s cities, though political analysts say the urban violence has now convinced many that action is necessary.

Many blame that ambivalence on what they see as a Pakistani military strategy of attacking only those militants who threaten Pakistan itself, while leaving alone other groups like the Afghan Taliban and Kashmir-oriented groups which can be used as “strategic assets” against Indian influence in the region.

But even in terms of Pakistan’s approach to the Pakistani Taliban, or Tehrik-e-Taliban (TTP) - a major target of the South Waziristan operation – some question whether the army is doing the right thing in launching military offensives in the tribal areas bordering Afghanistan.

For an alternative view to the prevailing support for the South Waziristan offensive, Muhammad Idrees Ahmad argues in Le Monde diplomatique that Pakistan is creating its own enemy through ill-considered operations that alienate local people and drive more into the arms of the Taliban. 

In a country where conspiracy theories abound, many are also quick to blame India or the United States for the violence rather than the Taliban.

Do read this exchange recounted by Londonstani, a blogger at Abu Muqawama, about last week’s attack on a market in Peshawar which killed more than 100 people, many of them women and children.

  “Person 1: ‘The Taliban couldn’t have blown up the market in Peshawar because a Muslim wouldn’t do that.’
  “Person 2: ‘No, the Americans did it. But you know, the market that got blown up catered for women. And you know it’s haram for women to go out of  the house.’
  ”Person 1: ‘Oh…..yeah’”.

And if the bomb and gun attacks are turning people against the Pakistani Taliban, that does not mean they are likely to rally behind their government. According to this poll, 73 percent of respondents believe that the terrorism has worsened dramatically in Pakistan. But commenting on the government’s response, 44 percent said they believe they had completely failed while 44 percent said they had been successful to some extent.

(Photos: soldiers in Lahore; refugees from earlier Swat offensive)

Comments

The frequency of surveys from Gilani Research Foundation has increased. All the more– Political surveys. In a televised interview with a local Pakistani channel CEO of the Foundation admitted that companions of Nawaz Sharif who is heading Pakistan Muslim League in Pakistan were consulted and involved in formation of this organization.

If we look at the surveys in the past by Gillani Foundation nothing comes out against PML. More so, it is no more American war as neither majority thinks so. Ask inmates of those thousands of Pakistanis who were killed or injured in suicide attacks by these terrorists you will get the answer. They also reject Gallup survey report at this account.

Our Army is fighting our own war for the safety and security of our nation. After attack on GHQ and also consensus among all political parties to fight against terrorism , it is no more American war, it is our own. Every body believes so.

All those who propagate considering it American War are fearful of image of Army as n institution which has now at the highest of all at 89 per cent.

Posted by Aishaa | Report as abusive
 

Many blame that ambivalence on what they see as a Pakistani military strategy of attacking only those militants who threaten Pakistan itself, while leaving alone other groups like the Afghan Taliban and Kashmir-oriented groups which can be used as “strategic assets” against Indian influence in the region.

If the above statement is true then I (as an Indian) am very happy and content to see Pakistan in the state it is. Many Pakistanis may not have contributed to the siuation the country is in, but they were happy to stand by and let it happen hoping it would not affect them.

Posted by bulletfish | Report as abusive
 

Myra,
You wrote “leaving alone other groups like the Afghan Taliban and Kashmir-oriented groups which can be used as “strategic assets” against Indian influence in the region.”.

====

We have discussed this repeatedly on this blog. It would be more accurate to say pakistan army wants to preserve groups involved in terrorism on unarmed civilians in India rather than saying they are “Kashmir oriented groups”.

Lashkar Terroist Chief has openly given speeches his goal is to raise the “Islamic flag” on the Red Fort in Delhi.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=2 0601087&sid=ayjsK9x_JXbc

EXCERPT-
Dec. 3 (Bloomberg) — U.S. Director of National Intelligence Michael McConnell said the group behind last week’s assault on Mumbai also carried out a 2001 attack on the Indian Parliament, which authorities blamed on the Pakistan-based militant group Lashkar-e-Taiba.

“This same group that we believe is responsible for Mumbai had a similar attack in 2006 on a train that killed a similar number of people,” McConnell said yesterday, without mentioning the organization by name. “Go back to 2001, it was an attack on the parliament.”

 

In a new book, former investigative magistrate Jean-Louis Bruguiere says Pakistan has lost control of rogue military and intelligence officers, who are aiding militants.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/ world/la-fg-terror-judge4-2009nov04,0,35 72513.story

“We did not have the impression that our interlocutors in ISI considered [Al Qaeda militants] to be terrorists.”

The book details French investigations of extremist activity in Pakistan, including a case in which officials went as far as hiding militants from CIA inspection teams at a training camp run by the Pakistani military. Military handlers then sent the trainees on terrorist missions to the West,

“The situation in Pakistan is among the most worrisome,” he writes. “The central government has lost control of certain elements of the army and the ISI, an intelligence service that no longer has the trust of its foreign partners.”

Affiliated with Al Qaeda, the camp was run jointly by the Lashkar-e-Taiba extremist group and Pakistani security forces, which supplied arms and instructors, the book says.

CIA officers accompanied by Pakistani officials made four inspections of the camp, part of an agreement in which Pakistan had promised to prevent foreign militants from training with Lashkar, Bruguiere writes.

“But, since most of the officers of Lashkar belonged to the army, these inspections were doomed to draw a blank,” the book says. “The foreign recruits were alerted on the eve of the arrival of the inspection teams by their instructors, military men informed by their hierarchy.

“The trainees then had to . . . erase any traces of their presence and head to an elevation of more than 13,000 feet while the inspection lasted.”

The book says Brigitte testified that his handler was a Pakistani military officer, identified as Sajid, who sent the Frenchman to Australia to join a cell plotting bomb attacks on targets that included a nuclear plant. Alerted by French investigators on Brigitte’s trail, Australian police arrested the group in 2003.

Posted by Sameer | Report as abusive
 

France blames Pak military for terrorist attacks that killed 14 French Engineers.

“the attack was ordered by Pakistani soldiers angry with France over the non-payment of bribes tied to a defence deal”

http://in.reuters.com/article/worldNews/ idINIndia-43619820091102

Posted by Andy | Report as abusive
 

There have been 8 secessionist movements namely Khalistan, Assam , Tripura, Meghalaya, Mizoram, Manipur, Nagaland and Arunachal Pradesh. These all are indigenous movements against racial discrimination and demanding political rights. There is militancy too. Both Ex-PM Indira Gandhi and Rajiv Gandhi were assassinated by non-Kashmiris.

Problem in Kashmir like these above secessionist movements is also indigenous. Blaming Pakistan for Kashmiri separatists activities is hiding darkest face of India’s secular democracy.

Posted by Ramisha | Report as abusive
 

So is this what is to be deducted from the bloggers: It is HARAM for women to go out of the house, they went to a women’s market, Americans blew up the market and therefore America supports the Taliban? These guys are religious fanatics… Pakistan is doomed as a country.

Posted by Jerry | Report as abusive
 

Problem in Kashmir like these above secessionist movements is also indigenous. Blaming Pakistan for Kashmiri separatists activities is hiding darkest face of India’s secular democracy.
- Posted by Ramisha

ISI’s links terrorists in Kashmir and Khalistan are well known. Here is the proof of ISI’s arms shipments to ULFA terrorists in Assam. Confession is coming from Ex-spy chief of Bangladesh. Terrorist supporters like you should be living in the terrorist training camps, not in reuters blogs!

“Bangladesh uncovers Pakistan’s role in Arming India’s North-East rebels”
http://rethinkingislam-sultanshahin.blog spot.com/2009/07/bangladesh-uncovers-pak istans-role-in.html

Ex-Bangladeshi Spy Chief: Pakistan’s ISI, Dubai-Based ARY Business Group Involved In Arms Smuggling To India
http://www.memrijttm.org/content/en/blog _personal.htm?id=1224&param=UPP

Posted by Soman | Report as abusive
 

With attitudes like these Pakistanis are doomed for sure. I can’t believe they still cling to the fiction that if the US leaves the region all will be well. If they are having this much trouble with a hundred thousand western troops fighting in Afghanistan, what do they think will happen when there is no lid on Afghanistan? Why would the Taliban stop in Kabul and Kandahar, when Islamabad and Peshawar are much more tempting targets?

Accusing the US of fomenting trouble in Pakistan while the US is going after those who are supposedly causing trouble is like suggesting that the firefighter who comes to put out the fire in your home started the fire. What ridiculous logic.

Apparently the CIA thought that Meena Bazar was such a strategically vital target to the global war on terror that they just had to take out a bunch of women who were shopping. I didn’t know the CIA cared that much about what was Haram or not and that Harami activities constituted a security threat to the United States.

With friends like these who needs enemies…

Perhaps the US should consider scaling back its drone campaign. Give the Pakistanis what they want. Let them try and solve their militant problems without US assistance. Oh wait, I forgot. Then they’d say that we are abandoning them. Ingrates.

Posted by Keith | Report as abusive
 

Keith you wrote:

“Perhaps the US should consider scaling back its drone campaign. Give the Pakistanis what they want. Let them try and solve their militant problems without US assistance. Oh wait, I forgot. Then they’d say that we are abandoning them. Ingrates.”

A rare moment of impatience from you. Armies base their decisions not on what is right or wrong, but what is effective, no? Therefore, do you think the drone campaign is achieving enough to justify the impact it has on popular sentiment? If not, perhaps scaling it back would make sense? I’m interested in your views from a purely military point of view, rather than the question of the ethics of drone strikes.

Myra

Posted by Myra MacDonald | Report as abusive
 

Is Pakistan?s war for real?
http://www.examiner.com/x-17537-Defense- Dept-Examiner~y2009m11d4-Is-Pakistans-wa r-for-real

The problem with this story is that this is at least the second time official sources announced that forces had taken control of Kotkai. Most official statements about progress in the South Waziristan operations appear to be either inaccurate or misleading. Why was it necessary to seize Kotkai twice? Why were there so few casualties?

Posted by Pooja | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan’s Baghdad Bob

Officials in Islamabad are notorious spinmeisters, but military spokesman Maj. Gen. Athar Abbas is fast becoming a prevaricator without peer.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/20 09/10/27/pakistans_baghdad_bob

Posted by Ramin | Report as abusive
 

Hey Indians are the most paranoid of all people in the world when they talk of Pakistan and Pakistani ISI.

According to them if anything happened in India that is violent is because of ISI?

May I ask India the so-called most powerful country of the region is a paper tiger and only talks and does nothing but interferes in neighboring countries by back stabbing as it did with Pakistan in 1971 by helping dismemberment of Pakistan, fomenting the Tamil war of Independence in Sri-Lanka, Interfering in the affairs of Nepal and the latest interference in Baluchistan separatist movement in Pakistan. These are all facts but the western biased press would avoid investigating and publishing these facts.

Ask people of Bangladesh, Sri-Lanka, Nepal, Burma and of course Pakistan all hate the haughtiness of this so-called rising star of the third world.Their interference in affairs of neighboring countries are based on false image of arrogance that they will become the most influential region of South Asia.

Their hatred of Pakistan stems from the fact as that is one country that can stand up to this bully on equal footing and it does not have the guts to attack Pakistan. This was shown by their Government officials’ saber rattling after the Mumbai attacks as their Air Force fighter planes tried and failed even to enter the air space two or three times to conduct air attacks on Pakistan after the Mumbai attacks but they were repulsed before entering the air space of Pakistan.

Posted by ratee | Report as abusive
 

does any one disagree with the following solutions to stabilise the region:1)pakistan army should be reformed to become a national army and stay in barracks well outside the cities.2)the capital of pakistan should move to where it was after its birth i.e Karachi, the military believed at the time not to be able to defend the military govt. in karachi far away from their headquarter.latest onslaught on ghq has proven that the military headquarter cannot be properly defended in cantonments.anyone with a reasonable common sense would know that rawalpindi and islamabad are the softest targets for pushtoon tribes in whose territory the military is coducting a campaign.3)us and nato troops should leave afghanistan as soon as possible, since even mr karzai will be forced eventually to order their expulsion.no one should forget that he is a pushtoon, and like he recently said that pushtoons are dying on both sides of the border and this must stop.4)pakistan civilian govt. should toned down their rhetoric and name calling about its own citizens and try to solve issues with dialogue and not strong arm tactics.similar tactics have in the past braught in an unwanted military govt. who find it easier to control the civilian population instead of protecting the botders against foreign military.5)the govt. should prioritised the development of drones in partnership with othewr friendly countries if needed, and stop begging usa for such equipment.

Posted by rex minor | Report as abusive
 

Mr Keith: What do you mean by logic wherever a occupying force attacks it creates enemies. A country that has a history of occupying and losing unpopular wars.

USA attacked Vietnam did you create peace until you went away. You tried to enter Lebanon you went away that created peace. You entered Iraq and have destroyed the peace their. You entered Afghanistan and have destroyed the peace of the whole region. Did not USA’ CIA create Al-QAida and failed in Tora Bora and then again in 2003 left to fight a war based on falsehood in Iraq?

You are blaming Pakistan for what USA created and left this ALQaida from 1989 to 2001 and forgot about it. Do you forget facts.

How is Pakistan doomed Pakistan is fighting this war as its already winning its war on their side of the border.. Its NATO that is losing the war not doing anything since 2001.

Posted by ratee | Report as abusive
 

Mr Kaith:Hey I forgot one more thing.Its USA that is depending on Pakistan to fight the war on terror. Pakistan has 150,000 troops on the border fighting the Taliban and its costing $ 900 for each soldier to maintain that soldier while a NATO soldier costs $ 75,000 each.DO you want USA to fight both sides of the border when USA cannot win its own side of the border in Afghanistan.

So what are you providing Pakistan $ 1.5 yearly aid and spending $ 65 billion annually on the war where USA has 60,000 troops so what do you mean ingrates???

Indicates your lack of understanding of facts and that USA cannot extinguish a war that they are responsible for potentially losing. Did you estimate what other social and economic loses Pakistan is suffering on account of this war? Is Pakistan being provided enough for fighting this war?

USA has never been more dependent on Pakistan in its history to fight their side of the border as now!! You are saying ingrates to Pakistan. A country that has suffered most by USA’s leaderships wrong decisions and bad decisions that have been presented above and are facts that nobody can deny.

Posted by ratee | Report as abusive
 

USA has never been more dependent on Pakistan in its history to fight their side of the border as now!! You are saying ingrates to Pakistan. A country that has suffered most by USA’s leaderships wrong decisions and bad decisions that have been presented above and are facts that nobody can deny.
- Posted by ratee

What were Pakistan’s leaders doing when US was taking wrong decisions for Pakistan? Counting and sniffing sweet smell of mint USD bills?

Blame the world if your military dictators don’t have a vision or if you are uneducated or poor! Would that solve your problems?

Wait till US runs out of patience! When US pulls out B-52s, you will run out of caves!

Posted by Pooja | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan’s Baghdad Bob
Officials in Islamabad are notorious spinmeisters, but military spokesman Maj. Gen. Athar Abbas is fast becoming a prevaricator without peer. – Posted by Ramin

there are a lot more Baghdad bobs in Pakistan than there ever were in Iraq. We’ve seen a small sampling of them on this blog too. they talk about everything been ‘fine’ in their country while the world can see it imploding. they childishly talk about taking on the US military & actually prevailing over it. If there ever was a country of ‘bobs’, it’s Pakistan.

Posted by brewer | Report as abusive
 

A rare moment of impatience from you. Armies base their decisions not on what is right or wrong, but what is effective, no? Therefore, do you think the drone campaign is achieving enough to justify the impact it has on popular sentiment? If not, perhaps scaling it back would make sense? I’m interested in your views from a purely military point of view, rather than the question of the ethics of drone strikes.

Myra

I’ll admit that polls like these can get frustrating. Just like polls at home which show that the public wants a pull out from Afghanistan. It’s unfortunate that the public in the west and in Pakistan just does not seem to understand what’s at stake in Afghanistan and Pakistan….from my perspective anyway (for what it’s worth).

As for the effectiveness of drone strikes. They are effective. They eventually do find their target. And I have no doubts that they have severely detracted the capability of many Afghan and Pakistani insurgent groups and Al-Qaeda. Had we not had this capability, I shudder to think about the situation we would have been facing throughout the region and the world. But are they worth the price? I have my reservations. And I am sure most military officers and security officials throughout the West have at least some doubts. The best tool, undoubtedly would have been the use of special forces, covert paramilitaries, etc. These would undoubtedly have shifted much of the risk from the unfortunate civilian collateral to the forces participating in any raid. Collateral damage would have been severely curtailed. Though we would have taken some casualties, it would have been a much better value proposition and carried better risk:reward ratios. But the American public in its wisdom decided against contracting Blackwater to do a few hits, and they have reservations about letting the CIA carry out assassinations. And the Pakistani public and military remain steadfastly opposed to any US forces operating anywhere inside Pakistan (even if it’s to take out anti-Pakistan insurgents). That leaves no choice but the use of drones.

I do believe that the largest beneficiary of these strikes is the Pakistani public. It sounds counter-intuitive in an era of daily bombings in Pakistan. But this is to be expected in the early stages of any campaign (and the Paks are really only getting serious now). The drone strikes keep the insurgents on the defensive, regularly degrade or deplete their leadership, and occasionally destroys or degrades their capabilities (bomb factories, weapons caches, groups of fighters, etc.). These all have an effect on successful the insurgents can be. Without a doubt the strikes have an impact. And it’s obvious that the Pakistan Army agrees, or they would not have tolerated them for so long. It’s too bad they haven’t passed on the message to the Pakistani public.

Posted by Keith | Report as abusive
 

May I ask India the so-called most powerful country of the region is a paper tiger and only talks
- Posted by ratee
===

This is contradictory. On the one hand you say India is only a paper tiger but you also say India was able to dismember Pakistan. You also claim “paper tiger” India is able to support the legitimate freedom struggle of the Balochi people. In your angry outburst you make contradictory statements.

We know of a REAL Tiger in the vicinity. A foreign airforce slams drones, and missiles on your territory. You have guts “to stand up” and say “meow, meow”.

This REAL tiger also sends envoys and prime minister to Washington DC, Brussels and Beijing and say “meow, meow I need aid money”.

Viceroy Clinton has to certify every year this REAL Tiger is behaving properly, says only “meow, meow” to get fed.

 

Mr Raj have you ever visited Pakistan? The standard of living in Pakistan is far better than of India. We have visited India where in the richest city many of the people live on footpaths!!!

People writing in blogs do not know whats the difference in standard of living in both the countries.

Look at the knowledge of the western media they do not whats the difference of quality of life between Afghanistan or Pakistan? So I tell you to have the guts and visit Pakistan and your eyes will open so wide to know how much Pakistan is ahead of you in standard of living and what your Indian or western press states about them. You will be pleasantly surprised at the lies that they are backward and fundamentalist or have a poor quality of life as compared to other South Asian countries. What you see is one section of society not even 0.10 % of societyabout the extremists that the western and Indian media is homing around which is far from the truth .

Pakistanis have always rejected the backward and fundamentalists, aint the extremists in India as detestable as in Pakistan but no Western media in over projecting the worst part of society is just trying to make everybody feel satisfied that Muslims are the worst people. So secular India open up your eyes and arms and do not believe in lies that have been thrown at you that all Pakistanis are bad for a change. But as in the past the extreme right is always going to win because people do not analyze impartially.

Posted by ratee | Report as abusive
 

Yes Pooja what happened to your best friendship of the century with USSR and now you are the best friend of USA?

Well let me tell you Pakistan always had long term relationships with USA, while India is a fair weather friend and will also leave USA when it sinks like USSR!!!!

Posted by ratee | Report as abusive
 

Well let me tell you Pakistan always had long term relationships with USA, while India is a fair weather friend and will also leave USA when it sinks like USSR!!!!
- Posted by ratee

I can feel your pain when you are getting droned bu your best friend every night and you can’t sleep well! I feel sorry for you!

But I can tell you that India doesn’t have a best friend. We are friendly to all including Pakistanis and Chinese! Before the Mumbai attacks, India was the only country willing to visit Pakistan for Cricket! We still give river water to Pakistan after Mumbai attacks! There are 25000 Chinese in India on illegal visas, doing 40 bil USD worth of business.

India has a vision for the world and itself. And many countries ahare that vision and come closer!

Posted by Pooja | Report as abusive
 

Raj/Pooja:
“A foreign airforce slams drones, and missiles on your territory. You have guts “to stand up” and say “meow, meow”.
“Wait till US runs out of patience! When US pulls out B-52s, you will run out of caves!”

-Dear, let me share the following link with you:
Army conducts exercise to shoot down drones
http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-n ewspaper-daily-english-online/Politics/2 2-Nov-2008/Army-conducts-exercise-to-sho ot-down-drones
Pakistan Army Air Defence conducted annual practice fire exercise at semi-desert Khudai Ranges near Muzaffargarh on Friday. Commander Army Air Defence Lt-Gen Ashraf Saleem witnessed fire power demonstration of anti-aircraft guns and short-range surface-to-air missile fire. General Officer Commanding Air Defence Maj General Tahir Ali was also present on the occasion.
The elements of Army Air Defence demonstrated their shooting skills by targeting the drones flying at different altitudes. The precision and accuracy in marksmanship with surface-to-air Anza-11 missile, 37 mm calibre, 35mm Oerlikan and 57mm radar controlled guns was greatly appreciated.

-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anza_(miss ile)
MANPADS(Man-portable Air Defence System)
Anza (English: Lance) is a series of shoulder-fired, man-portable surface-to-air missiles produced by Pakistan. Guided by an infra-red homing seeker, Anza is used for low level air defence.
In 2008, the Pakistan Army conducted exercises with the Anza Mk-II [41] in a semi-desert area near Muzaffargarh [42] in response to covert attacks on targets in north-west Pakistan by American unmanned aerial vehicles (UAV), also known as drones.[43] In November 2008, the chief of the Pakistan Air Force told reporters that his forces are fully capable of shooting down the American drones but it was the responsibility of the government to decide whether the drone attacks were stopped through diplomacy or military engagement.

So the key here is diplomacy or military engagement, a cost-effective Pakistani missile is fully capable of blowing the crap out of a million dollar drone. The drones are a slow moving target and can be easily shot by the Air Defence units.

And Pooja, the US has B-52s but in response Pakistan has some pretty lethal mix of destructive capability:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_an d_weapons_of_mass_destruction
Second strike capability
According to a US congressional report, Pakistan has addressed issues of survivability in a possible nuclear conflict through second strike capability. Pakistan has been dealing with efforts to develop new weapons and at the same time, have a strategy for surviving a nuclear war. Pakistan has built hard and deeply buried storage and launch facilities to retain a second strike capability in a nuclear war.[32]

It was confirmed that Pakistan has built Soviet-style road-mobile missiles, state-of-the-art air defences around strategic sites, and other concealment measures. Pakistan has also built hard and deeply buried storage and launch facilities to retain a second strike capability in case of a nuclear war. In 1998, Pakistan had ‘at least six secret locations’ and since then it is believed Pakistan may have many more such secret sites. In 2008, the United States admitted that it did not know where all of Pakistan’s nuclear sites are located. Pakistani defence officials have continued to rebuff and deflect American requests for more details about the location and security of the country’s nuclear sites.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Pooja:
“India has a vision for the world and itself. And many countries ahare that vision and come closer!”

-Oh, India has a vision for the world but no vision for the Mumbai slums? Spare some thoughts for your countrymen.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Umair, What you posted at November 5th, 2009 at 9:26 am GMT, is nothing short of posturing.

You never answered my previous question: Will all your arsenal and nukes save you from the terrorist attacks in your country?

Back to the topic:

Pakistanis will never stop blaming the USA or other countries they consider their mortal enemy, even though the dangers are clearly coming from within and was of their own creation:

Pakistanis Seek Blame for Bombing (NY Times, 03/11/2009)
Mr. Afzal…offered a view of who was responsible, similar to many others interviewed here. “I’m telling you categorically — the people behind this bomb are the Indians and Mossad,” he said, referring to Israel’s intelligence agency.
India and Pakistan are archenemies, and India figures into many Pakistani conspiracy theories.

Posted by bulletfish | Report as abusive
 

I think the division of ideology is basically the greatest threat to any Islamic nation. People are unable to decide what is good… Living peacefully or the violent way by jehadis… People are unable to decide whether it is a right to fight religion jehadi muslims vs slightly civilized muslims or to unite with jehadi muslims and non jehadi muslims. So pakistan, majority muslims, don’t know what is good for pakistan and what is not. Any mulla can usurp the democracy when given a chance. politicians of Pakistan cannot control mullas and are known to take support of private armies of war lords. Only communism in it’s true sense can save pakistan

Posted by Rohit | Report as abusive
 

Mr Raj have you ever visited Pakistan? The standard of living in Pakistan is far better than of India. We have visited India where in the richest city many of the people live on footpaths!!!
- Posted by ratee
===

This is a favorite topic of Paks! Thanks for bringing it up. You are only magnifying the failures of “pakistan”.

YOU should compare Pakistani Punjab with Indian Punjab, not with Bihar or Mumbai slums. There are regional disparities in India. Poor people from erstwhile East Pakistan also still migrate to Mumbai slums hoping to improve their economic situation.

When you look at the current geopgraphic size and getting prosperous fertile Punjab, Pakistan should have raced way ahead of India. Look where you are! Remember meow, meow in my earlier post??!

No instituitions, no political process, other ethnic groups are thoroughly fed up with the punjabis, on life support…Future prospects for economy are even bleaker since you cannot turn around the current situation in a year or two even…

It is understandable. You are only regurgitating what you read in “pakistan studies”!!

Indis is a respected emerging power and “Pakistan” is laughing stock of the world. Yet you take consolation that there are poor people in India. If this isn’t loser mentality and what else is?

 

Hey ratee,

If the (stardard of) living conditions in Pakistan are better than they are in India, then why does Pakistan need IMF, FoP begging round meetings and the Kerry-Lugar Bill to keep its economy afloat?

You are not fooling anyone with this hot air.

You better start paying attention to the way the world sees YOU and Pakistan, otherwise you are not going to attract anyone to your shores. Below is an extract from a BBC article:

The new lobbyists vying for US attention (29/10/2009).

Professor Walter Andersen, director of the South Asia programme at the School of Advanced International Studies at Johns Hopkins University:
“As Americans look at India and Pakistan,” he told me, “the gap is growing in terms of positive and negative; much more positive on the Indian side and much more negative on the Pakistan side.”

“The negativity on the Pakistan side,” he explains, “is related to the violence there and the sense that there has been double-dealing by the Pakistani government. On the one hand they say they are with us and then maybe parts of the military really do support some of these jihadi groups for Pakistani foreign policy purposes.”

Posted by bulletfish | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan will root out any anti state actor, weather they are in Wazirstan, urban centers or hiding in Afghnistan in Indian counslates on the border preapering to launch the next attack on Pakistan.

I can see with every bomb going off in Pakistan deep inside all indians are laughing as they keep saying. You “reap what u sow”. Even though even Secertary of state has admited USA was in the wrong to leave Pakistan after the break up of USSR. So for idiots trying to convince that its creation solely of pakistan are totaly FALSE. Yes we had our intrests and Pkaistan have used these groups to gain depth just like India used Tamil tigers and popping its nose in almost all of its neighours.

I agree with Ratee the only Pakistan stands up to India which they can not comprehend. As also with so many indian bloggers going to Pakistan site shows how much hatered they want to spread about Pakistan. But I guess not having much success are we…but keep trying.

This is the time when both countries have common enemy and can work together and start to build the trust and a perfect chance to start new chapeter in our distrutful relations after all we are people of the same land. From history we can learn but look to the future of out continenets rather than asking uncle Sam to help us.

Any comments on supprting tamils? which is terrorist outfit and helped by the mother of all democracies. But we understand when the insurgency was smashed with the help of pak army traning n weapons. India has no-choice and put its tail between its legs and starting shouting on humantarian grounds. Should have thought of that when you were helping them to kill inncoent civilians..

To all idiots who dream/wish/used proxies to defame Pakistan. Let me tell you we are here to stay and Long live Pakistan inshala!

Posted by Majid | Report as abusive
 

BBC coresponedent..jus go on to bbc and SAsia and read it for urself!

There is so much here that is wrong, that is cruel, and that is unjust. Poverty, caste violence… and for many millions a chronic lack of opportunity.

There is shocking treatment of women, who are killed for providing insufficient dowry, or for making the fatal mistake of falling in love with the wrong man.

There is shocking treatment of children, who are trafficked, abused or forced to work 16 hours a day in sweatshop factories.

Posted by Majid | Report as abusive
 

ratee,

Remember the maxim, “It’s better to be silent and thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.”

Unless you have verifiable statistics to back up your assertions (such as the one that Pakistani are better off than Indians), your propaganda will be seen for exactly what it is and the international audience of the Reuters Blogs will you for exactly what you are. For the sake of your dignity (and maybe that of your country), I suggest you consider your comments more carefully or refrain from commenting altogether.

Posted by Keith | Report as abusive
 

“So the key here is diplomacy or military engagement, a cost-effective Pakistani missile is fully capable of blowing the crap out of a million dollar drone. The drones are a slow moving target and can be easily shot by the Air Defence units.”

–>I don’t think Pakistan would like to declare war on the U.S. You better not touch their drones.

You cannot nuke the U.S. Their fifth fleet will ravage Islamabad and Pindi, if Pak were to start a war with the U.S. and the U.S. will not lose.

Posted by GW | Report as abusive
 

Moderators,

Is there no way to censor commentators like Majid who name call and use abusive language without any context or reason whatsoever? Surely, you can wisely judge the fine line between freedom of speech and abuse of that freedom.

Inflammatory language, like referring to others as idiots, should not be tolerated.

Posted by Keith | Report as abusive
 

Which facts can you deny Mr Keith about Pakistan and you do not have the guts to tell the name of your country!!!

Moreover most of the people who write here in on the blogs have not even visited any or most of the countries that are writing about.

Mr Keith your eyes will open if you ever visit Pakistan or any major cities like Islamabad, Karachi,Faisalabad or Lahore. You are also invited to visit India and Afghanistan major cities then you will know the difference. Pakistan has nearly $1,000 per capita income and just compare it with the neighboring countries.

The personal prejudice of people writing here in blogs is apparent based on poor and preconceived characterization of countries that reflects poor first hand knowledge of the countries and are just armchair writers.

Pakistani is far advanced in culture, personal wealth, standard of living and far advanced then these prejudiced writers are assuming.

Not a single seat has been won by the fundamentalist party in Pakistan in the latest elections even i FATA!!!. The Tribal area or Swat where the terrorists were located is just a minuscule area of Pakistan and they constitute just 0.10% of the population. So what are your facts if you have any?

Posted by ratee | Report as abusive
 

To quote Western press about Pakistan is just say anything negatively. Pakistan is the only country fighting the Taliban and Al-Qaida better than NATO waiting to make a face saving deal for withdrawal.

Pakistan has defeated Taliban in Swat and Malakand a region of 80 kilometers and now are defeating the in their backyard of Waziristan.

The Western media will never be satisfied so do not quote them as the main source of data that Pakistan is not doing enough. Having lost 4,400 citizens more than 9/11 Pakistan should satisfy themselves and not think of the fools that do not understand sincerity of the fight for survival of the country.

Posted by rate | Report as abusive
 

ratee,

I did not just quote the Western press. I used a quote SPOKEN by a Pakistan from Peshawar about the market attack.

Posted by bulletfish | Report as abusive
 

The USA will always be blamed for everything. Even if a US ship is passing by the coast of a country in civil war; that country’s people will blame the USA for not helping. Once the USA helps, they are accused of interferring in its internal policies.

Ofcourse Pakistanis will be angry because apart from the drone attacks now add the KL Bill conditions they view as encroachment on their sovereignty. However, judging by the way Pakistan has used previous monetary aid from the USA, then the USA cannot be blamed for attaching these conditions. What makes this more favourable for the Obama Adminstation is that Pakistan is in such a position that it cannot afford to refuse the aid. Hence, Senator Kerry’s words of take it or leave it, knowing full well the Pakistan govt need the money.

Posted by bulletfish | Report as abusive
 

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the US unemployment has risen to over 10% (10.2%). This means that soon the averge US taxpayer is going to demand results from Pakistan for the $1.5 billion a year. If the results are not to the USA’s satisfaction, then it will be the USA hating Pakistan and that not going to do anybody any good. Hilary Clinton already ‘scolded’the Pakistan govt; the US people will follow suit.

Posted by bulletfish | Report as abusive
 

Ratee,

Why does it matter where I am from? Why are you so concerned about my race or ethnic origin? But if such ignorance matters to you, read my posts, I have stated where I am from before.

I have travelled all over the world including to your land. I am fully aware of the conditions that Pakistanis live in. Not just in Islamabad but in the tiny villages throughout NWFP. I don’t doubt that Pakistan has much history, culture and civilization.

However, let’s not kid ourselves on where your country is heading. Pakistan used to have a GDP that was significantly further ahead than India. Today, they are mere dollars apart (in per capita):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cou ntries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

In the next year or two, India will surpass Pakistan. And that’s half the story….much of Pakistan’s economic statistics are inflated by the aid it gets and extremely generous terms for international trade. Should the world decide to treat Pakistani exports the way they treat exports from India or China or the Philipines, you’d be in a world of hurt.

Don’t think that we outsiders are biased because we write negative things about your country. The reality is that we are objective enough to speak the truth. What have I exaggerated here about the state of your country?

Here’s a link to the Failed States Index:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Failed_Stat es_Index

Please explain to us what they are exaggerating. You should note that Foreign Policy magazine is one of the most respected journals in the world and one which routinely sees contributions from Pakistanis. Hardly an organization that you would call biased. And there are other indices I can bring to the discussion if you want the image of Pakistan tarnished further on this forum. Just ask.

So why do we outsiders care? Well for one, we generally value human life more and do actually care to see Pakistanis suffer and get killed on a regular basis. You might not believe that but it’s true. We do feel bad when we hear of another bombing in Pakistan. But more importantly for us, the mismanagement of your country has created a global security nightmare that keeps the rest of us up at night. So you’ve lost 4400 more than 9/11? How come you don’t count bombings in London or the terrorist attacks in India? These days virtually any terrorist plot of significance has links to Pakistan. If this was not the case, we’d leave you to your business. Unfortunately for us, the rest of the world is paying for your mistakes.

Posted by Keith | Report as abusive
 

Mr. Keith: ” Well for one, we generally value human life more and do actually care to see Pakistanis suffer and get killed on a regular basis. ”

I am sorry, but I will have to disagree with your statement Mr. Keith. May be as an individual with a good heart, you may be valuing human life more. But do not extrapolate it to the whole “civilized” Western society.

Your ancestors took over pristine lands with abundant resources in many part of the world by force, decimated local populations, destroyed civilizations, indiscriminately moved populations from one place to another and have been ruling the world indirectly ever since. So long as the rest of the world plays a second fiddle to your countries, the world is considered peaceful and civilized. Most of the toil of the hard working people in the rest of the world helps fill your capitalistic markets where companies make voluptuous profits. The world is manipulated by the power of your countries. Even if you as an individual feels differently, you still bear the stain of the old culture that has brought this world to the brink in terms of environmental damage, pollution, global warming, extinction of species and so on. Your small populations consume most of the world’s resources, leaving the rest of the world in dire penury. If you are aware of that, then you will realize that all this feelings for other humans is only a lip service. Ask the cozy and comfortable Australians about what they have done to their land and its original inhabitants.

Your countries have had the chance to dominate others and evolve to this comfort level where you act like kings and we are expected act like your servants, taking orders from you. Osama Bin Laden is an out come of the deep seated feelings of those billions who are suffering silently at the hands of the Western powers. I am not supporter of violent people, but they are the symptom of what your dear countrymen have done to the rest of the world. You are not in Afghanistan to bring peace to the world. You are here because the poor and backward people could creep in and fight you in your own homes. Your countries have denied justice to many civilizations around the world by turning brother against brother. And the chaos you see is the result of that. So learn to share the world with others. Stop making weapons that your countries sell to both warring sides and stop making those profits.

Before you preach to others about human rights, please look at what your civilization has done to the rest of the world. By realizing that damage, a solution can be found. We are not evil people. We appear evil because we have been pushed to the edge so that your people can live a comfortable life. Oil greed has messed up the Middle East. So let us be fair to each other. If you point a finger at us, we can point many at you. Your damage was slow and imperceptable over centuries. So it appears as though nothing has happened. But it was the worst damage the world has seen.

 

Mr. Anjum,

You really want to compare ancestors? You obviously don’t know the history of North America. Our aboriginal people may have suffered. But Canada never wiped out its aboriginal population like the US. In fact that was one of the causes of the American revolution (and a key cultural difference between Canada and the US). King George would not allow expansion into aboriginal lands, a tradition that has been maintained since. So I don’t see what my country has to apologize for. Even your generic anti-western claptrap about oil is off-base. Canada has its own.

Now let’s compare to your ancestors and what they did in South Asia. Perhaps I should list the various esteemed Muslim conquerors and what they did to the original inhabitants of South Asia?

And let’s compare what’s been the aftermath. We felt so guilty about our mistreatment of the aboriginal peoples, that today we give them extra social services, support payments, free education (right up to and including attendance at any university in Canada), no taxes and unlimited hunting and fishing rights (which other hunters, farmers or forest workers don’t get). They can also lay claim to any land if they can prove their ancestors live there. Shall we compare that to what Pakistan does for its minorities?

And now we can move on to your true emotions. You are justifying the actions of Bin Laden. Lovely.

Like I’ve said before, you can’t bring yourself to condemn terrorism. You are just unhappy that the victims are Pakistani. You’d probably be pretty pleased if the victims were American or British or Indian or Israeli, right?

You still don’t understand that if you want to defeat these thugs you can’t pick and choose which lot you fight. That affords them a convenience which costs you lives. While the Pak Army is around they will be Afghan insurgents. But when the PA leaves, they become anti-Pakistani. That’s how it works. That’s why the US has been helping you. Yet, here you are criticizing the help the west gives.

Posted by Keith | Report as abusive
 

Stop making weapons that your countries sell to both warring sides and stop making those profits.

- Posted by Mohammed Anjum

I think the Americans are trying to do that with the Kerry Luggar Bill. What do you think of that effort?

Would you mind then, if they decided not to sell you F-16s or multiple rocket launch systems or Harpoon missiles?

Posted by Keith | Report as abusive
 

we have been pushed to the edge so that your people can live a comfortable life.
- Posted by Mohammed Anjum
==
Mr.Anjum:
Your criticism of West is all fine and dandy. Are you seriously expecting any one here to believe either YOU been pushed to the edge …… or Mohamad Anjum speaks on behalf of those who have been pushed to the edge?
Get Real, Sir.

Mohamed Anjum is more likely to be a well fed, well endowed Punjabi army or ISI individual liviving in a cushy cantonment…who is well paid, and is living at the expense of poor people in pakistan…

Mohamed Anjum is an individual who pretends to be an intellectual but sustains a war machinery, supports and sponsors terroism on unarmed civilians on his “enemies” in the hopes of achieving delusional megalomaniacal, imperialistic territorial dreams.

Finally, why so much anti-West outburst when you have produced a country where youngsters are desperate to migrate the “evil” West but get visas rejected because of their national identity tarnished by the policies promoted by people like you who imgaine to be enlightened.

 

Mr. Keith:

“I think the Americans are trying to do that with the Kerry Luggar Bill. What do you think of that effort?

Would you mind then, if they decided not to sell you F-16s or multiple rocket launch systems or Harpoon missiles?”

Kerry Lugar bill is the clear sign that the Indians have cornered the Americans with their lies. Pakistan shouldered a major responsibility for the Americans through very difficult times during the cold war era. Now we are not needed, so they are shaking hands with India. Tomorrow that can change and America will start courting Pakistan or some other country. We have learnt from our experience not to trust Western powers too much. We have Chinese to look up to for help. Americans will fail in Afghanistan and will get carried out in their stretchers. The money they are giving is really not an aid. It is the payment Pakistan deserves for letting them use our land to fight their arch enemies. We have been betrayed. That’s all. What one sees inside Pakistan today, all the terrorist attacks definitely bear the signatures of CIA, RAW and Mossad. I have no problem with that. Our military did that. I do not deny that. So your guys have learnt that art too. We are already a poor nation. We can take these hits and still survive. We will tough it out. But when we come out of this mess that others have created around us, some countries should watch out. We will settle the scores. No Pakistani will forget these things. You can keep the F16s. We have our missiles and the nukes to defend ourselves. One thing the world has to realize is that we cannot be pushed too far.

 

Mohammad,

Keep posting. I won’t respond here on in. I don’t do crazy. I’ll leave you to stew in your tin-foil conspiracy theories about the CIA, RAW and Mossad.

At least Umair is sensible and spirited in his discussion. You’re in a different league altogether. Just try not to embarrass the one half-decent Pakistani that regularly contributes to this forum, okay?

Posted by Keith | Report as abusive
 

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