Pakistan’s Waziristan fight tougher than Kashmir ?

November 10, 2009

The Pakistani Taliban are warning the Pakistani military that it faces a fight in Waziristan tougher than Kashmir where the Indian army has struggled to quell a 20-year armed revolt.

It must be a rather bitter irony for the Pakistani army to be dealt such a warning from an umbrella militant group, several of whose members it once nurtured to fight the Indian army in Kashmir.

War by a thousand cuts, the Pakistan strategic establishment said, referring to the strategy to bleed India’s much larger army and ensure parity. So militants were given material support to take on the Indian army which was then forced to throw in more and more troops in to the conflict zone, until there were almost – and to this day remain –  anything around 400,000 to 500,000 troops in the area.  Such a large military presence by itself deepens the people’s alienation and perpetuates the insurgency.

Is it going to be the same for the Pakistani army as Pakistan Taliban spokesman  Azam Tariq told Reuters on Tuesday just as suspected militants carried out the third attack near the frontier city of Peshawar in as many days ?

Waziristan as Kashmir does seem a stretch. One, the Pakistani Taliban don’t have the cross border backing that the militants operating in Kashmir had, beginning with helping them cross over, to training, to  giving them arms and then pushing them back across the Kashmir frontier. Leave alone state support, it’s not even certain that their brothers-in-arms, the Afghan Taliban, are backing them to the hilt in what must be their toughest battle yet since they turned against the Pakistani state.

For what it’s worth an Afghan  Taliban commander on Tuesday distanced himself from the Pakistani Taliban, saying it didn’t support targeting innocent people.  The Afghan Taliban’s target were only the foreign forces in Afghanistan, Afghan Taliban commander Abdul Mannan alias Mullah Toor told Pakistan’s GEO TV.

Two, the Pakistani army has deployed about 30,000 troops in the South Waziristan operation, a drop for an army with a size of over 520,000 troops.  The Taliban will have to do much more to draw the Pakistani army deeper into their lair and in  greater numbers before it can really begin to bleed them.

Third, there doesn’t seem to be any people’s support for the Taliban,  at least not in the open and not in the sense that the Indian army faces in Kashmir.

In such circumstances, can the Pakistani Taliban really go the distance, fight a 20-year war? Perhaps they will target Pakistan’s cities and towns to weaken the state’s resolve as they have done in the run-up and aftermath of the offensive.

{Reuters picture of people fleeing south Waziristan]

Comments

To compare the Pakistan Army’s offensive to push out the militants from South Waziristan to the genuine freedom struggle of the people of Jammu and Kashmir against Indian occupation is absurd. Perhaps Mr. Migliani should ask his government and its forces why they’ve suppressed the will of the Kashmiris to self determination for over 60 years. After all one needs two to tango with regards to his theory of Pakistan strategic planners “bleed[ing] India’s much larger army”.

Posted by Dawood Khan | Report as abusive
 

@Sanjeev,

Your last comment was:

“Perhaps they will target Pakistan’s cities and towns to weaken the state’s resolve as they have done in the run-up and aftermath of the offensive.”

–>The Taliban, as long as they are kept in an only “softened” state, will keep suicide attacking innocents in Pakistani cities. Life will start becoming unpredictable and a horrible existence there. I predicated several times months ago that the militants will fight in the cities.

The Pak Army needs to redistribute, redeploy and train for Urban Warfare. The militants have sanctuary in the cities, despite that you may remove them from their caves or hills wherever they reside. They will always find santuaries in the cities, where internal police security is weak and the military presence is non-existant.

The U.S. may choose to retain its right to target actionable targets in the cities. That would not bode well for anybody, especially Pakistan, which is why the PA needs to re-allocate and retrain military assets for Urban warfare and divert those assets from Kashmir.

India has not intention of invading Pakistan from anywhere, especially from Kashmir, rest assured that
Open field war with India is not going to happen, India will not start a war, but the militants have on Pakistan and generally, the Pak Army has showed a half-witted response and the Pak Army is ill-equiped to do Urban Warfare.

If the Pakistan Army is so professional and so skilled, why do they not decapitate the Taliban permananently, especially the Haqqani and Hekmatyar networks along with Pakistani Taliban? The Answer is simple, the Pak Army wants to maintain the status quo, with regards to its personal business model of sending terrorists into India.

Pak Army doctrine must be revised wrt India, as they have a willfull wanton mental blind spot to the militant enemy within, which wants to bring down the state of Pakistan.

Posted by GW | Report as abusive
 

Sanjeev:

what an angle.

@Tariq vowed a long, tough fight.

“They thought they would capture Waziristan easily but the fight in Waziristan will be tougher than in Kashmir,” he said.”

-Indian Army does not use aerial bombing in Kashmir.
Pakistan Army does not shy away from aerial bombing Waziristan and softening the targets before moving. What happens in Waziristan remains in Waziristan but what happens in Kashmir is known by one and all due to tech savy Kashmiri media and public.

I am waiting for Pakistanis to mention here that Indians give material support to terrorists in Waziristan (like Pakistanis give in Kashmir).

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

1. Taliban in Pakistan can sustain much longer than Kashmir. War in Kashmir was (is) run by ISI and depends on directives from ISlamabad. That is why now it is standstill.
2. Taliban in Pakistan are supplied American arms by Afghan police and smuggler. Arms never been an issue and are in abundance compared to hauling arms across much guarded border in Kashmir.
3. Taliban do not need to lure in troops. Taliban will reach them inside cities rather than bringing them in.
4. Pakistani government and its army have made the war as an economic boom and they do not want to wrap it up. Keeping the pot boiling guarantees the flow of money. It is surprising an agriculture based society is in shortage of sugar and flour. With abundance of hydroelectric power, most of country is facing power shortage.
5. It is just matter of time when Taliban reach will be felt in Karachi, the final battle ground.
6. The solution is to stop the war in neighboring Afghanistan and let people decide their own destiny. Foreign interventions have produced die hard militants.

Posted by Nanga Pir | Report as abusive
 

Sanjiv,
You have mostly outlined how Waziristan is different from Kashmir. But you have omitted one crucial factor….and that is prolongation of the conflict, restriction of civilian rights, collateral damage to civilians, etc will antagonize the population eventually. It is way too soon now.

Meanwhile Indians should desist from the notion Pakistan has learnt its lessons and will give up terrorism in India. This is fantasy.

Pakistan army is caught up in internal quagmires, and is under intense international scrutiny. This doesn’t mean their intent to indulge in terrorism in India has gone away.

Be always prepared! Next time the response should be better than what India did post Mumbai 2008. Empty rhetoric will no longer work , it hasn’t worked in the past and it wouldn’t work in the future either.

http://www.samaylive.com/news/india-shou ld-react-militarily-to-pakistan-terror-f icci/666906.html

“Hard military and economic counter actions should be the answer to Pakistan’s cross border terror, says India’s top business forum, regretting that New Delhi’s response has so far been only “reactive and defensive”.

The report notes that “it is fallacious to believe that the so-called soft attitude and double standards of the West on Pakistan will change”.

 

I think the taliban pose a lot and resist little.The previous claims by TTP didn’t prove right.They know that have been cornered and do not get support and more importantly the space , where they have been operating without much troubles.Now they also know another important fact that the army this time means a fight and they also have lost several movement in adjacent tribes.You are absolutely right in saying that the only course left for them is to target civilians , this is the most they can do but by this they have lost their support.They will fade away fairly quickly like in swat.The army has learned the art of fighting them and has the resolve and support of the people to wipe them out.

Posted by kamran khan | Report as abusive
 

the main thing Pakistan is lacking is the WILL or RESOLVE to clean their house completely and that will keep these militants feeding from Punjab and North Wazaristan until 10-20 years down they (pakistanis) are fed up (after blaming everyone) and has to clean and purge every militant of any kinds

Posted by AD | Report as abusive
 

No two wars are identical. People call the Afghanistan conflict as yet another Vietnam. There may be some similarities. However, Waziristan operation, like the author has mentioned is vastly different from that waged in Kashmir. In Kashmir, the war is waged by Pakistan through its proxies with an attempt to alienate the local population by frustrating the Indian military. To a large extent Pakistan had made substantial progress in this regard. Events in Afghanistan after 2001 have offset all its further plans and acceleration of the proxy war inside Kashmir. Now it is mostly confined to militant groups like LeT that run this proxy war with their own resources. Pakistan’s military is pre-occupied with its own internal war.

This war in Waziristan might go in an entirely different direction and take on a new dimension on its own. Firstly this war is being fought during the winter season. The plan might be to limit the resources for the militants and trap them from all sides. But if the militant’s core groups had already sneaked into the mainland during the army’s three month preparation, they might be waiting to strike from behind. And that might involve urban insurgency creating panic across different metros.

Pakistani army’s efforts have a high potential to succeed in the short term. But no one has a measure of the depth of this problem. The Americans might bring in more troops to corner the Afghan Taliban and that might change the game completely. One might see collabration between different warring factions at that stage. They might see the Pakistani army as an ally of the US.

This war is not going to end within three months. The US itself has been sitting in Afghanistan for the past 8 years without achieving its goal. The reasons for this delay will be the same for the Pakistani Taliban’s survival in the long run. It is becoming a game of nerves.

 

To compare the Pakistan Army’s offensive to push out the militants from South Waziristan to the genuine freedom struggle of the people of Jammu and Kashmir against Indian occupation is absurd.
- Posted by Dawood Khan
=====

To be fair, Indian bloggers have consistently asked not to compare the genuine, legitimate freedom struggle of the Balochi people against pakistani occupation with Taliban’s jihadi terror in NWFP and elsewhere.

 

Mauryan, you said:

“Pakistani army’s efforts have a high potential to succeed in the short term. But no one has a measure of the depth of this problem.”

–>You have alluded to my thoughts on this item. There are millions of Pashtuns in Karachi and as a source of retribution militant attacks, Karachi is ripe for internal terrorism. Again, internal national security is non existant and the police are inept and corrupt at best.

Pakistani’s, innocents are going to get butchered, unless Pak Army drops the ball again and does not poise itself against an enemy that is not imagined, but very real. We Indians hope that Pakistan pro-actively addresses internal security, from a defense and local police perspective.

The depth of militantism has not even been imagined. It is plausible that militantism could involve civil war breaking out where security is weakest.

I am sure the U.S. will find a way to do Urban Droning if the Pak Army is behind the 8 ball and wasting its 700,000 Army in Kashmir.

Posted by GW | Report as abusive
 

Sanjeev,
Your comparison of Wazaristan to Kashmir is similar to comparing a suicide bomber to a victim of sucide bomber. How can you blur the difference between a terrorist and a victim?

Posted by Soman | Report as abusive
 

How ironic indeed! The militants who were bred & nurtured to help Pakistan bleed India ‘with a thousand cuts’ have taken a page from the Pak army/ISI playbook & are hell-bent on bleeding Pakistan. Just as the Pakistani army tested India’s resolve over 2 decades by terrorizing Indian cities, these militants will do the same to Pakistan. In the coming days, weeks & months, I expect many more terror attacks in Pakistani cities from Peshawar to Karachi to Lahore & unfortunately the one’s bearing the brunt of this onslaught will be innocent civilians. The police & other law enforcement agencies in Pakistani cities are inept & grossly under-prepared to deal with what’s happening & what’s to come. It’s time for the Pakistani military establishment to give up it’s stubbornness & move the troops stationed along the Indian border into the cities to protect Pakistani civilians. It’s high time, they wake up to the fact that the country is transforming into a war-zone.

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive
 

Dawood Khan,

How about reading the article before having a pavlovian response to the words ‘Waziristan’ and ‘Kashmir’ and taking it out on your keyboard?

If you had read the article, you would have learned that it’s not Sanjeev that made the comparison but the Taliban themselves.

If you aren’t going to read the article or the links, why bother commenting?

Posted by Keith | Report as abusive
 

@Sanjeev, Keith, bloggers

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/saad-khan/ pakistans-half-hearted-mi_b_349872.html

Please see the link above. It appears that Pakistani commentators also believe that Pak Army purposely announces military offensives to give Taliban enough time to preserve and hide their cadre, weapons and other assets.

All of this suggests that the Pakistani Army is lying to the U.S. and still playing games, while average Pakistani citizens are getting butchered. If this is true, it appears that Pakistani lives are expendable to the Pak Army, so that the PA can maintain integrity of their proxy war assets.

Again I predicted this many times before that the PA would be doing a lackluster fight and doing whatever they do, only to suit their own econonic political and strategic maneuvering.

Time will tell if the liars in Pindi and Islamabad have such motives.

Posted by GW | Report as abusive
 

Thanks for providing the link to the HuffPost article, GW. I have been intrigued by the statements Pakistani officials kept issuing all summer about an impending Waziristan offensive. To an outsider it is a bit puzzling to announce your intentions before launching a military operation.

Posted by Sanjeev Miglani | Report as abusive
 

He that diggeth a pit shall fall into it; and whoso breaketh an hedge, a serpent shall bite him.

Posted by indian1127 | Report as abusive
 

This will be totally irrational to equate repression of Indian Army in Kashmir with terrorist upsurge in South Wazirastan which is a threat to international peace as UN in various resolutions has condemned likewise terrorism.

The people of Kashmir are struggling for their rights which accepted by United Nation.

More so, Terrorism and militancy in South Waziristan is sponsored and backed by India. If there was any doubt about it, is no more after capturing heavy Indian weapons, maps and military IDs in South Waziristan.

So, in Kashmir the problem faced by India is indigenous and people there are struggling for their rights which has nothing to do with terrorism.

Posted by Aishaa | Report as abusive
 

as a guest i read with great interest the commentary from various participants.to nourish your thoughts one should not forget that:
.the waziri pushtoons have fought the colonial army for over one hundred years while the whole of india was ruled by the brits during that time.pakistan army despite their areal bombardment will face similar fate.
.militancy is not born but simply a reaction of some against the oppressor.it is sad that there is an unrest throughout pakistan from baluchistan to swat.the govt. should use dialogue and not force.
.pa concentration on kashmir borders is a friendly warning and should not be construed by india as a confrontation.both countries know that the dispute if not resolved peacefully will end in a nuclear disaster.

Posted by rex minor | Report as abusive
 

More so, Terrorism and militancy in South Waziristan is sponsored and backed by India. If there was any doubt about it, is no more after capturing heavy Indian weapons, maps and military IDs in South Waziristan.
-posted by Aishaa

Oh, really? Then why has no other media apart from the Pakistani media picked up on this and shouted it from the tallest buildings?

My shoes are made in China and if I kick a Japanese man does that mean China is sponsoring me to hurt Japan?

You are no different that those other bloggers who ranted and raved about ‘saffron threads’ of the Mumbai attackers only to be silenced by Pakistan’s admittance that the attackers were from Pakistan.

Posted by bulletfish | Report as abusive
 

Ms. Aishaa you write:

“This will be totally irrational to equate repression of Indian Army in Kashmir with terrorist upsurge in South Wazirastan which is a threat to international peace as UN in various resolutions has condemned likewise terrorism”

We agree that the two are not the same. In Kashmir there were protests against corrupt politicians and election rigging. This is typical in a democratic system and it happens in other parts of India as well. From 1965 until 1989, Kashmiris had learned to live with India. It was a very peaceful state. After the Soviets left, Pakistani military sponsored Mujahideen veterans launched their offensive inside Indian held Kashmir. They used the usual public protest that I mentioned above as the cover and took it to a new dimension. This time it included attacks on the police and violence. The plan was to cause frustration by attacking the police and security forces and disappearing into the crowd who remained silent because of fear of the militants. The Pakistani planners knew that retaliation from the Indian security will come and it would be brutal. Not knowing whom to target, there would be mistakes made, which could be used further to intensify the problem. It was only a matter of time before the situation would snowball into a major headache for India and it would be forced to bring in more of its military into the state. The Pakistani sponsors knew that they just had to trigger their supporters inside the valley and turn this public anguish into a violent struggle. If you see most of this concern for “Kashmiri freedom and rights” comes mostly from Pakistanis.

In parallel to the effort inside Kashmir, Pakistan also made sure that it had the necessary nuclear deterrent available by 1989 so that India would not be able to strike at its training camps inside its territory. And the events that unfolded inside Afghanistan, the emergence of the Taliban, systematic military training of proxy militants etc were to culminate in a major war between India and Pakistan. The plan was to hide the engagement of Pakistani military and project the “Mujahideen” as the front runners in that war. India would be made into the aggressor and Pakistan the defender. Kargil exercise was a dry run in that regard.
Unfortunately Al Qaeda, with its global ambitions, spoiled the party.

Now Pakistani military is fighting its strategic asset in South Waziristan. Hillary has already hinted that it is not adequate. Pakistan will have to go after the other strategic assets it has been trying to preserve. Not having learned any lessons from the current situation, Pakistani military will make things worse for Pakistan as its “children” would begin to turn against it.

Kashmir has been quiet of late hasn’t it? Can you tell us why Ms. Aishaa? That is because your military is busy fighting one of its rebel groups. If there was no internal conflict, Kashmir will be busy. So there is a clear indication that “the struggle for freedom and rights of Kashmiri people” seems to be a Pakistan controlled militant activity that seems to turn on and off based on whether the military is busy with internal engagement or not.

From an Indian stand point, keeping the Pakistani military busy fighting its own arms and legs seems like a good strategy.

So your writing that:

“More so, Terrorism and militancy in South Waziristan is sponsored and backed by India. If there was any doubt about it, is no more after capturing heavy Indian weapons, maps and military IDs in South Waziristan.”

though it lacks any credibility, it might be a good strategic option for India. You people are giving hints to India by accusing it with allegations of this kind. India cannot engage a nuclear armed Pakistan in direct conflict. What worked for Pakistan can work for India. But India has desisted from doing such things for the past two decades. It knows that using criminal activities to gain can backfire, as the case of Pakistan
has clearly showed. That is why it did not engage in Sri Lanka when LTTE was finally wiped out. It could have and sustained a proxy war there and bled Sri Lanka. But India has changed. You all must realize that.

Without credible proof, your allegations against Indian engagement with the Taliban sound ridiculous. The India of the 1970s and 1980s would surely have exploited the situation in Pakistan because your country has turned into a headache for the whole neighborhood. Currently, there is no need for extra effort. Pakistan seems to be collapsing on its own as its citizens have not completely changed their mindset about terrorism yet. They still seem to separate terrorism against them and that against others, as Ms. Aishaa’s writings reflect.

“So, in Kashmir the problem faced by India is indigenous and people there are struggling for their rights which has nothing to do with terrorism.”

See the above argument. There is no indigenous struggle in Kashmir. It is a balloon being pumped by Pakistan and its military. Right now the balloon appears deflated because Pakistan itself is on the verge of deflating.

 

Mr Singh

“If you see most of this concern for “Kashmiri freedom and rights” comes mostly from Pakistanis.”

Firstly you know why Mr Singh, they next of kin of ours to start with , connected through religion, geography, blood and trade and so on. Nor fogetting they are suppose to have peblicite as backed by UN resoulution.

Now please be honest to yourself and answer this, are you telling me and the rest of the world, somehow Pakistan or ISI has big ghost chinhook choppers that take kashmiris/Pakistani to the Indian Occupied kashmir to protest? No! they are the locals living under occupation for the lasy 60 years, Your so called saint army rapes thousands kashmiris and are doing so as I type this, staged killings, Human rights violations, leaders under house arrest, ordinary kashmiris banned from going to mosques, intimidation and most of all pupet regime sponsored by Delhi to supress the rights of the Kashmiris.

We have supported Kashmiris and will carry on doing so morally and personaly we should by all means! As a Kashmiri from Azad Kashmir we know how it feels to have our families separated and can not even travel to our kashmir. What you know sitting in Indian Punjab most likely with your Khalistan dream down the Bombay gutter. You sikhs might NOT have the stomach but Kashmiris do and we will carry on with our struggle and one day your coward army will be sent home inshalah!!!

“From an Indian stand point, keeping the Pakistani military busy fighting its own arms and legs seems like a good strategy.”

You hit the nail in the coffin, as clearly you indirectly admit that its the indians that are donating free money, arms, documents to Taliban. After all why would you have so many counslates in Afghanistan and no wonder now and again it back fires and the counslates gets blown up, maybe when the payment dont reach the terrorist in time and they get upset.

“your country has turned into a headache for the whole neighborhood.”

The only ones we dont have good relation are the indians, you know why maybe we can stand up to you and look into your eyes with the same venom as look at us.We have perfect relationship with Sri-lanka, Iran and so on. Ask yourself wasnt it the indians that helped the Russians to invade and occupy Afghanistan? Was you too young or naieve to acknowldge that… What you been practising in Kashmir you wanted to preach to others and practice also in Afghanistan.

“There is no indigenous struggle in Kashmir.”

I suggest quickly you to get your brain cells, they are overflowing with misinformation from star news. Just go to BBC and read the views of the kashmiris or maybe better go to kashmir and ask the kashmiris. You think your Khalistan dream is down the drain you want us to accept the Indian OCCUPATION… NEVER!!! We rather live one day as a lion or hundred days as jackal…!

Posted by Majid | Report as abusive
 

it makes no sense to blame so called talabans or the indian govt.for the events in pakistan, equally indian govt. is well councelled to end the occupation of kashmir and improve the livelihood of its citizens.it is an illusion on the part of indians to expect either their own military or that of pakistan could suppress resistance from kashmiris living inside or outside pakistan territory.naturaly the instability of the region as a whole is not conducive at present for such an entterprise.there are those who believe that sometimes in chaos things somehow get resolved.the past history of the continent does not support this and the events of recent european history should be a lesson for the world not to put too much emphasis on borders and hagemony or influence.

Posted by rex minor | Report as abusive
 

Why is there so much talk about India ending its occupation of Kashmir? What about Pakistan’s occupation of Kashmir?

Does that not matter as well?

If Pakistanis care about Kashmir, they would push their government to co-ordinate a joint withdrawal with India (of both Pakistani and Indian forces).

Posted by Keith | Report as abusive
 

@This will be totally irrational to equate repression of Indian Army in Kashmir with terrorist upsurge in South Wazirastan which is a threat to international peace as UN in various resolutions has condemned likewise terrorism.
The people of Kashmir are struggling for their rights which accepted by United Nation.”
-says Aishaa

- Comparison is not between the tribes of Waziristan and Kashmiris. Kashmiris are not terrorists so why IA would do what you alleged. It is because of our dear neighbor Pakistan Punjab’s Kasab-equivalents terrorists which IA is focused to repress and Kashmiris are stuck there.
________________________________________ ______
@Operation in Waziristan wiping out terrorism is nearly a distant dream. Someone said in “days”! The elements required are not in place yet.

At least, three factors are needed to wipe terrorism: Military (going on), political solution (absent) and public turning against the terrorists of all kinds (absent or minimal)—I still see many who support Talibans and other groups. Waziristan military operation can surgically remove the cancer but metastasis (public support and supporting ideology for terrorists) will not let the eradication of this cancer.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

Thanks for providing the link to the HuffPost article, GW. I have been intrigued by the statements Pakistani officials kept issuing all summer about an impending Waziristan offensive. To an outsider it is a bit puzzling to announce your intentions before launching a military operation.
- Posted by Sanjeev Miglani

Sanjeev,

I am sure that you, Myra and the other contributors to this blog have your sources. It’s no secret that the Paks have been deceitful about their efforts and the progress of those efforts, with regards to tackling militancy and terrorism.

Have a chat with any diplomat, intelligence official, or ISAF military officer, they’ll tell you that they are fully aware of how much or how little the Pakistanis are doing.

However, this go around, it’s their problem. If they choose not to fight the insurgents sincerely, they’ll suffer for it with increased battlefield casualties and more bombings. If they want to gamble with the security of their country that’s their choice. After all, these fighters change who they work for day-by-day. Yesterday it was the LeT, today it’s as a rented gun for the Mehsud tribe. If the Paks can’t understand this, they’ll pay the price for it.

Posted by Keith | Report as abusive
 

Mr. Majid,

In general you have written sensibly in these blogs. Looks like my words touched your raw nerve. I am no supporter of Khalistani movement. I love the entire sub-continent, including Lahore. We are all distant cousins. It is just that we follow different faiths. But this does not mean that I cannot call a spade a spade.

Kashmir turned into a hell hole not because of Indian army’s oppression. It was pushed to that stage by the Pakistani military. And this is something the Pakistani military has tried since 1965. The Afghan war with the Soviets has been a turning point as far as Kashmir is concerned. It helped the Pakistani military fine tune its proxy war machinery and test it in the field. It is a dangerous weapon with the risk of boomeranging. Had things worked as per the long term plan, India would surely have fallen due to the thousand cuts. Kashmir was the main battle field for this operation. And it could have escalated into further violent acts in the other parts of the union, finally leading to the collapse of India. Kashmir is not suffering because Indians are cruel. It began to choke because Pakistan decided to twist it from the other side. Indian grip has tightened as a result. The only way to loosen this grip is to come to terms with India. Pakistan’s plans failed due to geo-political shifts.

The whole thing is purely political and it has nothing to do with religion, brotherhood etc. If Pakistanis are so caring and concerned about fellow Muslims, I did not see even one Pakistani condemning China’s brutal suppression of the Uighur revolt against the Han Chinese. And most Pakistanis simply refuse to discuss about the genocide of fellow Muslims in East Pakistan.

There are many groups inside India that would like to run a nation on their own. Jinnah got ahead of them before the British left and got his share. But then Bangladesh formed. There are various self serving political leaders inside the Indian democratic system who, if given an opportunity will let others burn in order to upgrade their hold on power. There is the Shiv Sena and its progeny in Mumbai who are using Xenophobia to strengthen their hold in their state. There are the Khalistanis. Once upon a time the Tamils were asking for autonomy. It is a system strung together by cobwebs.

We had leaders like Indira Gandhi who believed in muscling their way into everything. Khalistan and to some extent Kashmir and the North Eastern states experienced a lot more chaos during her tenure.

Militaries are brutal. There is no civil military anywhere. One should never throw stones at them and expect them to offer flowers in return. The first thing Kashmiris should do is to help assuage Indian concerns. It cannot be one sided. Just because you are Muslims, it does not give you the right to demand exclusiveness in everything. There are states like Uttar Pradesh in India that have more Muslims than those in Kashmir and they are not demanding a separate nation. Religion should not be used as a reason for forming nations. Pakistan’s failure is a clear example of where it will lead to.
If you want the Indian military to loosen its grips inside Kashmir, the first thing your people have to do is to shun those militants and their supporters who are wreaking havoc inside Kashmir. Indian military is there to fight them and not the people. The UN plebiscite snake has been beaten to death. It requires Pakistan to remove its military from Azad Kashmir as a first condition. And it hasn’t happened for the past six decades. Shimla accord signed in 1972 pretty much replaced the 1948 UN resolution. Therefore a new resolution has to be drafted. But both India and Pakistan have to come to an agreement on it. In today’s situation, I do not see much room for that.

Kashmir is being used by Pakistani military as a pawn in its engagement with India. Until there is a sincere effort to desist from it, there is no room for any progress. Right now Kashmir is very quiet. The reason is all the firings have stopped from the Pakistan side. Militants are sitting and waiting for the next signal and it is not coming. And most of those militants are not Kashmiris. They are cruel monsters. So do not count on them. They will turn Kashmir into another Afghanistan under the Taliban. Do not be emotional in your demand.

 

@Majid,

Talking to some of you Pakistanis, or even sincerely attempting to bring sense to your fragile psyche is a futile effort and nothing better than talking to a wall.

It is obvious you Pakistani’s are victims of propaganda and an alternate set of history books. All of this was done for a few good reasons, by your masters, but the obvious one is to fuel the ideology of Pakistan by any means possible, conspiracies, half-truths, lies, which told over and over again become accepted as truths, especially when politicians there need votes and repeat lies told decades ago, as though they are truths.

The only truth that will become evident to Pakistanis, is that their country is about to be set on fire by Militants. They, the Islamic militants are starting indiscriminant retribution against the military by taking random suicide missions against innnocent civilians.

Please set Kashmir aside. For the record, all of Kashmir was asceded by Prince Maharaja Hari Singh to India, in return for protection from Pathan Thugs who were sent to slaughter Hindus and place a half-moon crescent flag on Delhi. We Indians are soft and have chosen not to pursue your portion of Kashmir, which legally and rightfully belongs to India, all of the Pakistan’s portion of it. Any subsequent UN resolutions stating otherwise were shortsighted and ignored the facts.

Posted by GW | Report as abusive
 

Majid says:

“You sikhs might NOT have the stomach but Kashmiris do and we will carry on with our struggle and one day your coward army will be sent home inshalah!!!”

–>First of all, please refrain from belittling our brave Sikh Lions. Just to reiterate history, some of the Sikh Gurus, were actually killed by muslims, I am sure you know of that, most Sikhs do. Secondly, Sikhs are one of the most respected, successful, tolerant and friendly peoples of India and the most successful diaspora, please do not insult their potential by bringing up Khalistan. The prime minister is Sikh and Sikhs enjoy much status in Indian society as productive, contributing members in India and worldwide, no one can match their hardwork and perseverance, but please do not ever put our brave Sikhs in such a little league as yours, cavorting with terrorists and chasing little dreams, full of blame, hatred, lack of introspection and embracing violence and the dark ages. Sikhs are a part of the Indian family and India is incomplete without them and they are one of the greatest things in terms of culture and among the best of what India has to offer the world. The Sikhs are a nation unto themselves and achieved far more than the oppressed and Jizya’d Sikhs who live like second class Kaffirs in Pakistan. In fact, much of Khalistan, should perhaps be formed out of Pakistan’s Punjab area, it is actually where most of the Short lived Sikh Empire existed at one point in time, feel free to surrender it to the Sikhs in Pakistan and others may join if they wish.

Kashmir has artificially been made into a fictitious struggle, due to the strategic and political maneuvering by the Pakistani Army to fuel unrest and separatism, through the use of Proxy Armies.

If you feel Indians are involved in terrorism, let any Pakistan come forward with proof. Even your great Army and ISI agencies know it is not true, that is why no dossiers or evidence has been given, because there is none to give.

If you want to help your bretheren, you should actually contact the Govt of China and urge them to give the Uighers, your Islamic brothers, their own country. China just executed 9 Muslim Uighers, I never heard one Pakistani say a thing, and yes, nothing from you either, nor any other Muslim nation, or the Arabs.

Please keep your selective morality for discussion amongst your friends. You just ridiculted yourself, with hollow, baseless assertions, not founded in reality, but on the propaganda news you hear every night in Pakistan.

Lastly, any crimes by the Indian Army should be followed up, investigated and those soldiers, brought to justice. As an Indian, that is my official stand on a crime committed on any innocents.

How about the Bengali Genocide with 2.5million Hindus and 500000 muslims being genocided, do you have any comment on that, or pure silence? Are the Kashmir muslim lives worth more than Uighers, or Bengali Muslims?

Feel free to stay silent on the Pak Army Genocide. The stain of blood is still fresh, as not one Pakistani here has the courage to admit the mistakes and attrocities their army committed there.

Please take your pleads and plights to the mental asylum. They ring hollow and carry no weight. Nobody is listening.

Posted by GW | Report as abusive
 

Sanjeev,

Attached is a article posted on http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/papers3 5/paper3499.html

I had posted a comment highlighting this saudi sponsored Jihad as the core of Al-Qaeda – Taliban terrorism and seeking a UN resoluion against wahabism, unfortunately my post was not printed. I don’t expect this post to be printed either however my point of view has been vindicated.

Posted by uday kumar | Report as abusive
 

Kashmir and Jammu is an integral part of India and will remain so. Pakistanis butchered their OWN people in 1971 and now cry rivers for Kashmiris. What Kashmiris are there in POK? In 1989 when terrorists started to come across the LoC, they killed and forced our the ‘indiginous’ Hindu Pandits and their families. This is why there are so many Indian troops in Kashmir.

Over 90,000 Pakistani PoWs were released from the 1971 war in exchange for bilateral dialogue over Kashmir. However, after terrorists started to filter across the border, India knew that Pakistan can never be trusted. Now, even the Americans know that Pakistan cannot be trusted otherwise their would be no conditions to the Kerry-Lugar Bill.

Posted by bulletfish | Report as abusive
 

Majid writes: “We rather live one day as a lion or hundred days as jackal…!”

Just pelting stones against a military does not make you guys into lions. And those who are supporting you from the other side of the LoC are more like jackals. I am surprised that you guys are relying on those jackals to wage your fights.

And your comment stating your superiority to Sikhs is very sick. Do not let your emotions fly out of control.

With words of these kind, you are losing the support of moderate people who have tried to understand the plight of Kashmiris and sympathize with them.

Remember this and tell this to everyone – violence begets more violence. So do not rely on violence to stake any claims. It only things a lot harder to accomplish. You must look at your Muslim brothers in Pakistan who are paying the price for relying on force and violence to achieve their goals. At the end, they have lost half their nation. Their own people are fighting their army and are blowing up their own people. Being unable to swallow the truth, they are blaming others.

 

Some Pakistanis on this blog who have blown the usual trumpet of blaming Mossad/CIA/RAW should look at this article that has appeared in the DAWN.

http://blog.dawn.com/2009/11/12/a-nation -of-sleepwalkers/

It highlights the syndrome that is afflicting the Pakistani psyche. Many Pakistanis are still in denial of the real cause of their misery.

 

Sanjeev,

Why give credence to insurgents’ claims? As you’ve pointed out the fight is different. Despite the braying of Pakistanis, there is no evidence (that the international community accepts) that the insurgents in the hills of Waziristan are backed by outsiders (India, Afghanistan, the US or somebody else).

And they don’t have the safe havens that Kashmiri insurgents maintain in Kashmir (often defended by the Pakistan Army to boot). There is no way that these insurgents could sustain themselves for long, unmolested in Afghanistan. NATO and the Afghans don’t want them there and would pursue them sooner or later. Unlike the Pakistanis, NATO understands that insurgents are dangerous regardless of who they are targeting.

So let’s rubbish these claims now and not have fine writers such as yourself become conduits of insurgent propaganda.

Posted by Keith | Report as abusive
 

Majid,

You & your morally, financially & literally bankrupt establishment can keep sponsoring the proxy war in Kashmir like you guys have been doing for the last 20+ years, it doesn’t really matter. All you have, to show for it, is a prosperous India, not an inch of Indian Kashmir & a ‘Failed State’ in Pakistan. So, keep up the good work & pretty soon, you’ll have a failed & disintegrated Pakistan. Stay focused on Kashmir while Baluchistan, NWFP/FATA & others head for the exits.
The Kashmiris are being slowly but surely assimilated into India. They are just starting to taste the economic prosperity that the rest of India has been experiencing for the last 10-15 yrs. Pretty soon they will start realizing that they wanna be a part of an economic power like India & not of a failed country which is also the terror capital of the world. So, Pakistanis like you can keep hallucinating & fantasizing about Kashmir all you want after all is doesn’t cost anything.
As far as your rant about the Sikhs is concerned, your frustration is quite apparent since your dream of dismembering India by creating ‘Khalistan’ did not succeed. As a sikh, I can tell you that ‘Khalistan’ was never a dream of the Sikh community. It was a dream of Pakistan & Pakistanis like yourself. Your establishment brain-washed a few wavered people but failed miserably. Sikhs are a part of India & will always be. If you really wanna know about the ‘STOMACH’ of the sikhs, you can go & ask about it from some of your generals & military personal who have fought in the 1947, 1965, 1971 & Kargil wars. They’ll tell you about it.

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive
 

I agree with Keith.

Paks have been thoroughly exposed beyond doubt on their sponsorship of terrorism in the region. Now the paks are desperately indulging in propaganda and lies and no one is buying them.

Posted by Rj | Report as abusive
 

Why not compare it with the North-east in India? India I guess has been fighting a very low intensity war there. It is, as if, the region is perpetually hanging between stability and instability. The same might happen in Pakistan. While Afghanistan militants might not support the Pak Taliban, it is lawless enough to provide the strategic depth to the Taliban which the Pak army once wanted for itself. The imaginary border enforced by Nato and the pak army adds to this depth to create a Kashmir like situation.

Posted by Hara | Report as abusive
 

An excerpt from an article by Nadeem Pracha (Dawn) highlighting the current Pakistani state of mind:

“Pakistanis routinely continue to deny the fact that the monsters who are behind all the faithful barbarism that is cutting this country into bits are the mutant product of what our governments, military, intelligence agencies, and society as a whole have been up to in the past 30 years or so.

Well, this is exactly what happens to a society that responds so enthusiastically to all the major symptoms of fascist thought. Symptoms such as powerful and continuing nationalism; disdain for the recognition of human rights; identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause; supremacy of the military; obsession with national security; the intertwining of religion and government; disdain for intellectuals and the arts; an obsession with crime and punishment, etc.

Have not the bulk of Pakistanis willingly allowed themselves to be captured in all the macho and paranoid trappings of the above-mentioned symptoms of collective psychosis. It clearly smacks of a society that has been ripening and readying itself for an all-round fascist scenario.”

http://blog.dawn.com/2009/11/12/a-nation -of-sleepwalkers/

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive
 

Minor point. The only part of Kashmir (Indian + Pak) where Kashmiri is spoken is the valley, which is in India. The inhabitants of the oxymoronic “Azad Kashmir” do not speak Kashmiri (a few related dialects perhaps but NOT Kashmiri). They happened to be a part of the Maharaja’s state of Kashmir so they retained the nomenclature.

Posted by NA | Report as abusive
 

@Sanjeev, other bloggers, please read link.

http://www.worldpoliticsreview.com/artic le.aspx?id=4603

Sanjeev, please see the link above. It is reported that the coward militants are just escaping and scattering to other parts of Pakistan to avoid the PA offensive head on. Little damage is actually being done to the Pak Army, which would explain how the Militants are claiming to be able to fight the Army for 20 years. Nice littel arrangement to extort money from the U.S. for 20 years, they are probably sharing the loot with the Militant cadre, to pay for their food, weapons and supplies to use against NATO troops in Afghanistan.

It appears that the PA’s internal directive to protect Militant cadres for deep storage future use is working, while at the same time, they can cherry pick and make easy kills to show the world that they are actually doing something.

I am just wondering when all of the stake holders are going to get fed up with befuddling and obfuscation by the Pak Army.

Militantism is not going to be rid by the PA, but by an outside force it seems. That outside force may have to be NATO. The entire war theatre may just have to be expanded to stretch from Kashmir to Kabul. It appears the lackluster half-hearted Pak Army is not willing to use finality and bone-crushing pre-emptive, pro-active force or even take the Militants by surprise.

Taking the militants by surprise will be a huge gain strategically, but Pak Army seems to not thing that the element of surprise is necessary, rather than the element of forwarning the enemy is more productive. This all appears very funny to us outsiders.

Posted by GW | Report as abusive
 

Mortal said:

“Sikhs are a part of India & will always be. If you really wanna know about the ‘STOMACH’ of the sikhs, you can go & ask about it from some of your generals & military personal who have fought in the 1947, 1965, 1971 & Kargil wars. They’ll tell you about it.”

–>Sikhs in Pakistan and India are a culturally and politically a different breed, despite the food language and religion. Many Sikhs in Pakistan were forced or just gave up and became muslims, because it was easier to live that way. Sikhs in India have gone in a completely different direction and propelled themselves on the forefront of many great endeavors across the world and India. I feel sorry for the lost potential of the Sikhs in Pakistan. Sikhs are a truly great and admirable people and are moderate and forward thinking Unfortunately, Pakistan has tried to weaponize non-mainstream, extremist Sikh thinking against India and failed and all Indian Sikhs have risen far above than being hijacked by a cabal of terrorists, supplied, mentored and nurtured by Pak State agencies.

Posted by GW | Report as abusive
 

ISI has control over all terrorist organizations: Musharraf

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/podcast s/fareedzakaria/site/2009/11/08/gps.podc ast.11.08.cnn

Posted by Soman | Report as abusive
 

Our Peshawar ISI head quarters has been hit just now. If ISI was the villain as the Indians claim, why would the terrorists attack its head quarters? It is clear to us Pakistanis who is really behind these attacks. The plan is to create enough chaos inside Pakistan and cause confusion. And then the plan would be to use that confusion to convince the US and its allies in going after our nukes. But beware! Pakistan will not tolerate this kind of clever activities. Soon those who are behind these cowardly actions will be made to pay dearly.

 

@mr anjun,one comment.even mr obama is not regularly using the name “terrorist” any more.this spin was given life by george w administration.your isi should at least publish the names of people who are on the cia payroll.pushtoons have retaliated against brits in the uk in 19th century and they will definitely react against pa establishments in cities.naturally your speculation about foreign hand in this turmoil is logical but you should jump to a conclusion without evidence.this strategy has always been used by your leaders as a spin.you have real problems within your establishment!!

Posted by rex minor | Report as abusive
 

@soman,it would too simple to believe fareed zakari(not zakaria) as pronounced by him and musharaf, both of whom are of indian origin and are on the payroll of cnn.they are foreign to your culture and do not normally mean what they say.isi is no different than cia, m5 etc.they all have their stregnths and weaknesses.

Posted by rex minor | Report as abusive
 

Mohammad Anjum,

To us Indians, your ISI has always been a villain who provided weapons and training to terrorists who filter across the LoC. This is nothing new.

There is already enough chaos in Pakistan caused by the terrorists you created. How are your nukes going to help you against these terrorists?

Your warnings of ‘beware’ are extremely late going by the number of people butchered in previous attacks.

Calling these activities clever is an ‘insult’ to those who have been killed in these attacks. It shows that you have a degree of admiration for the attackers. you really need to improve on your choice of words.

Posted by bulletfish | Report as abusive
 

although the two episodes are not comparable, one military action is to suppress the resistance and the other one a plain aggression into the autonomous waziri region. however,i find one could subjectively compare two ingredients;
1)foreign armies are involved in the campaign.
2)mr rajeev’s anology about aerial bombardment by pakistan army to soften the targets, whereas, indian army has refrained from bombing their own citizens as they still consider the kashmiris.
this alone should make pakistanis ashamed of their military outfit and the so called civilian govt.

Posted by rex minor | Report as abusive
 

““You sikhs might NOT have the stomach but Kashmiris do and we will carry on with our struggle and one day your coward army will be sent home inshalah!!!” Majid

In a nut shell – delusions of grandeur.

Obviously no knowledge or even the basic concpt of Sikh history and tradition.

 

ISI has declared that not only is it in contact with Afghan Taliban leader Mullah Mohammed Omar but that it can bring him and other commanders to the negotiating table with the United States.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/07  /10/pakistan.taliban.omar/index.html

Posted by Soman | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan Army has plenty of experience and is moving in the right direction. The terrorist’s picnic in Waziristan is over. As Pakistan Army moves in, caves and safe havens of terrorists are abandoned now. The Army is deploying a better strategy, with Special forces entering the areas first and clearing them. Making way for regular units to move in and hold territory. No need for hundereds of thousands of troops for such targetted ops. And Pakistani soldier is tough.
No doubt the Army and ISI are being hit, but retaliation is under way. You will all be discussing the situation in Southern Punjab in three months from now. The Army has started its work there covertly as of now, tip offs are being recieved, and terrorist & criminal elements are being cordoned there. This will be a multiprong operation. And specially those who dont get tired labelling Pakistan a failed state will see the strength as Pakistan will eliminate every anti-state element one by one InshAllah.

What we see now is a sustained effort by anti-Pakistan forces out to undermine Pakistan and a fight back by our security services.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Mr. Anjum,

Have a look at the link below. Let me know what you think of Nadeem Paracha’s article. I am fairly sure he’s talking about guys like you.

http://blog.dawn.com/2009/11/12/a-nation -of-sleepwalkers/

Posted by Keith | Report as abusive
 

Post Your Comment

We welcome comments that advance the story through relevant opinion, anecdotes, links and data. If you see a comment that you believe is irrelevant or inappropriate, you can flag it to our editors by using the report abuse links. Views expressed in the comments do not represent those of Reuters. For more information on our comment policy, see http://blogs.reuters.com/fulldisclosure/2010/09/27/toward-a-more-thoughtful-conversation-on-stories/
  •