Pakistan’s Waziristan fight tougher than Kashmir ?

November 10, 2009

The Pakistani Taliban are warning the Pakistani military that it faces a fight in Waziristan tougher than Kashmir where the Indian army has struggled to quell a 20-year armed revolt.

It must be a rather bitter irony for the Pakistani army to be dealt such a warning from an umbrella militant group, several of whose members it once nurtured to fight the Indian army in Kashmir.

War by a thousand cuts, the Pakistan strategic establishment said, referring to the strategy to bleed India’s much larger army and ensure parity. So militants were given material support to take on the Indian army which was then forced to throw in more and more troops in to the conflict zone, until there were almost – and to this day remain –  anything around 400,000 to 500,000 troops in the area.  Such a large military presence by itself deepens the people’s alienation and perpetuates the insurgency.

Is it going to be the same for the Pakistani army as Pakistan Taliban spokesman  Azam Tariq told Reuters on Tuesday just as suspected militants carried out the third attack near the frontier city of Peshawar in as many days ?

Waziristan as Kashmir does seem a stretch. One, the Pakistani Taliban don’t have the cross border backing that the militants operating in Kashmir had, beginning with helping them cross over, to training, to  giving them arms and then pushing them back across the Kashmir frontier. Leave alone state support, it’s not even certain that their brothers-in-arms, the Afghan Taliban, are backing them to the hilt in what must be their toughest battle yet since they turned against the Pakistani state.

For what it’s worth an Afghan  Taliban commander on Tuesday distanced himself from the Pakistani Taliban, saying it didn’t support targeting innocent people.  The Afghan Taliban’s target were only the foreign forces in Afghanistan, Afghan Taliban commander Abdul Mannan alias Mullah Toor told Pakistan’s GEO TV.

Two, the Pakistani army has deployed about 30,000 troops in the South Waziristan operation, a drop for an army with a size of over 520,000 troops.  The Taliban will have to do much more to draw the Pakistani army deeper into their lair and in  greater numbers before it can really begin to bleed them.

Third, there doesn’t seem to be any people’s support for the Taliban,  at least not in the open and not in the sense that the Indian army faces in Kashmir.

In such circumstances, can the Pakistani Taliban really go the distance, fight a 20-year war? Perhaps they will target Pakistan’s cities and towns to weaken the state’s resolve as they have done in the run-up and aftermath of the offensive.

{Reuters picture of people fleeing south Waziristan]

Comments

To compare the Pakistan Army’s offensive to push out the militants from South Waziristan to the genuine freedom struggle of the people of Jammu and Kashmir against Indian occupation is absurd. Perhaps Mr. Migliani should ask his government and its forces why they’ve suppressed the will of the Kashmiris to self determination for over 60 years. After all one needs two to tango with regards to his theory of Pakistan strategic planners “bleed[ing] India’s much larger army”.

Posted by Dawood Khan | Report as abusive
 

@Sanjeev,

Your last comment was:

“Perhaps they will target Pakistan’s cities and towns to weaken the state’s resolve as they have done in the run-up and aftermath of the offensive.”

–>The Taliban, as long as they are kept in an only “softened” state, will keep suicide attacking innocents in Pakistani cities. Life will start becoming unpredictable and a horrible existence there. I predicated several times months ago that the militants will fight in the cities.

The Pak Army needs to redistribute, redeploy and train for Urban Warfare. The militants have sanctuary in the cities, despite that you may remove them from their caves or hills wherever they reside. They will always find santuaries in the cities, where internal police security is weak and the military presence is non-existant.

The U.S. may choose to retain its right to target actionable targets in the cities. That would not bode well for anybody, especially Pakistan, which is why the PA needs to re-allocate and retrain military assets for Urban warfare and divert those assets from Kashmir.

India has not intention of invading Pakistan from anywhere, especially from Kashmir, rest assured that
Open field war with India is not going to happen, India will not start a war, but the militants have on Pakistan and generally, the Pak Army has showed a half-witted response and the Pak Army is ill-equiped to do Urban Warfare.

If the Pakistan Army is so professional and so skilled, why do they not decapitate the Taliban permananently, especially the Haqqani and Hekmatyar networks along with Pakistani Taliban? The Answer is simple, the Pak Army wants to maintain the status quo, with regards to its personal business model of sending terrorists into India.

Pak Army doctrine must be revised wrt India, as they have a willfull wanton mental blind spot to the militant enemy within, which wants to bring down the state of Pakistan.

Posted by GW | Report as abusive
 

Sanjeev:

what an angle.

@Tariq vowed a long, tough fight.

“They thought they would capture Waziristan easily but the fight in Waziristan will be tougher than in Kashmir,” he said.”

-Indian Army does not use aerial bombing in Kashmir.
Pakistan Army does not shy away from aerial bombing Waziristan and softening the targets before moving. What happens in Waziristan remains in Waziristan but what happens in Kashmir is known by one and all due to tech savy Kashmiri media and public.

I am waiting for Pakistanis to mention here that Indians give material support to terrorists in Waziristan (like Pakistanis give in Kashmir).

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

1. Taliban in Pakistan can sustain much longer than Kashmir. War in Kashmir was (is) run by ISI and depends on directives from ISlamabad. That is why now it is standstill.
2. Taliban in Pakistan are supplied American arms by Afghan police and smuggler. Arms never been an issue and are in abundance compared to hauling arms across much guarded border in Kashmir.
3. Taliban do not need to lure in troops. Taliban will reach them inside cities rather than bringing them in.
4. Pakistani government and its army have made the war as an economic boom and they do not want to wrap it up. Keeping the pot boiling guarantees the flow of money. It is surprising an agriculture based society is in shortage of sugar and flour. With abundance of hydroelectric power, most of country is facing power shortage.
5. It is just matter of time when Taliban reach will be felt in Karachi, the final battle ground.
6. The solution is to stop the war in neighboring Afghanistan and let people decide their own destiny. Foreign interventions have produced die hard militants.

Posted by Nanga Pir | Report as abusive
 

Sanjiv,
You have mostly outlined how Waziristan is different from Kashmir. But you have omitted one crucial factor….and that is prolongation of the conflict, restriction of civilian rights, collateral damage to civilians, etc will antagonize the population eventually. It is way too soon now.

Meanwhile Indians should desist from the notion Pakistan has learnt its lessons and will give up terrorism in India. This is fantasy.

Pakistan army is caught up in internal quagmires, and is under intense international scrutiny. This doesn’t mean their intent to indulge in terrorism in India has gone away.

Be always prepared! Next time the response should be better than what India did post Mumbai 2008. Empty rhetoric will no longer work , it hasn’t worked in the past and it wouldn’t work in the future either.

http://www.samaylive.com/news/india-shou ld-react-militarily-to-pakistan-terror-f icci/666906.html

“Hard military and economic counter actions should be the answer to Pakistan’s cross border terror, says India’s top business forum, regretting that New Delhi’s response has so far been only “reactive and defensive”.

The report notes that “it is fallacious to believe that the so-called soft attitude and double standards of the West on Pakistan will change”.

 

I think the taliban pose a lot and resist little.The previous claims by TTP didn’t prove right.They know that have been cornered and do not get support and more importantly the space , where they have been operating without much troubles.Now they also know another important fact that the army this time means a fight and they also have lost several movement in adjacent tribes.You are absolutely right in saying that the only course left for them is to target civilians , this is the most they can do but by this they have lost their support.They will fade away fairly quickly like in swat.The army has learned the art of fighting them and has the resolve and support of the people to wipe them out.

Posted by kamran khan | Report as abusive
 

the main thing Pakistan is lacking is the WILL or RESOLVE to clean their house completely and that will keep these militants feeding from Punjab and North Wazaristan until 10-20 years down they (pakistanis) are fed up (after blaming everyone) and has to clean and purge every militant of any kinds

Posted by AD | Report as abusive
 

No two wars are identical. People call the Afghanistan conflict as yet another Vietnam. There may be some similarities. However, Waziristan operation, like the author has mentioned is vastly different from that waged in Kashmir. In Kashmir, the war is waged by Pakistan through its proxies with an attempt to alienate the local population by frustrating the Indian military. To a large extent Pakistan had made substantial progress in this regard. Events in Afghanistan after 2001 have offset all its further plans and acceleration of the proxy war inside Kashmir. Now it is mostly confined to militant groups like LeT that run this proxy war with their own resources. Pakistan’s military is pre-occupied with its own internal war.

This war in Waziristan might go in an entirely different direction and take on a new dimension on its own. Firstly this war is being fought during the winter season. The plan might be to limit the resources for the militants and trap them from all sides. But if the militant’s core groups had already sneaked into the mainland during the army’s three month preparation, they might be waiting to strike from behind. And that might involve urban insurgency creating panic across different metros.

Pakistani army’s efforts have a high potential to succeed in the short term. But no one has a measure of the depth of this problem. The Americans might bring in more troops to corner the Afghan Taliban and that might change the game completely. One might see collabration between different warring factions at that stage. They might see the Pakistani army as an ally of the US.

This war is not going to end within three months. The US itself has been sitting in Afghanistan for the past 8 years without achieving its goal. The reasons for this delay will be the same for the Pakistani Taliban’s survival in the long run. It is becoming a game of nerves.

 

To compare the Pakistan Army’s offensive to push out the militants from South Waziristan to the genuine freedom struggle of the people of Jammu and Kashmir against Indian occupation is absurd.
- Posted by Dawood Khan
=====

To be fair, Indian bloggers have consistently asked not to compare the genuine, legitimate freedom struggle of the Balochi people against pakistani occupation with Taliban’s jihadi terror in NWFP and elsewhere.

 

Mauryan, you said:

“Pakistani army’s efforts have a high potential to succeed in the short term. But no one has a measure of the depth of this problem.”

–>You have alluded to my thoughts on this item. There are millions of Pashtuns in Karachi and as a source of retribution militant attacks, Karachi is ripe for internal terrorism. Again, internal national security is non existant and the police are inept and corrupt at best.

Pakistani’s, innocents are going to get butchered, unless Pak Army drops the ball again and does not poise itself against an enemy that is not imagined, but very real. We Indians hope that Pakistan pro-actively addresses internal security, from a defense and local police perspective.

The depth of militantism has not even been imagined. It is plausible that militantism could involve civil war breaking out where security is weakest.

I am sure the U.S. will find a way to do Urban Droning if the Pak Army is behind the 8 ball and wasting its 700,000 Army in Kashmir.

Posted by GW | Report as abusive
 

Sanjeev,
Your comparison of Wazaristan to Kashmir is similar to comparing a suicide bomber to a victim of sucide bomber. How can you blur the difference between a terrorist and a victim?

Posted by Soman | Report as abusive
 

How ironic indeed! The militants who were bred & nurtured to help Pakistan bleed India ‘with a thousand cuts’ have taken a page from the Pak army/ISI playbook & are hell-bent on bleeding Pakistan. Just as the Pakistani army tested India’s resolve over 2 decades by terrorizing Indian cities, these militants will do the same to Pakistan. In the coming days, weeks & months, I expect many more terror attacks in Pakistani cities from Peshawar to Karachi to Lahore & unfortunately the one’s bearing the brunt of this onslaught will be innocent civilians. The police & other law enforcement agencies in Pakistani cities are inept & grossly under-prepared to deal with what’s happening & what’s to come. It’s time for the Pakistani military establishment to give up it’s stubbornness & move the troops stationed along the Indian border into the cities to protect Pakistani civilians. It’s high time, they wake up to the fact that the country is transforming into a war-zone.

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive
 

Dawood Khan,

How about reading the article before having a pavlovian response to the words ‘Waziristan’ and ‘Kashmir’ and taking it out on your keyboard?

If you had read the article, you would have learned that it’s not Sanjeev that made the comparison but the Taliban themselves.

If you aren’t going to read the article or the links, why bother commenting?

Posted by Keith | Report as abusive
 

@Sanjeev, Keith, bloggers

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/saad-khan/ pakistans-half-hearted-mi_b_349872.html

Please see the link above. It appears that Pakistani commentators also believe that Pak Army purposely announces military offensives to give Taliban enough time to preserve and hide their cadre, weapons and other assets.

All of this suggests that the Pakistani Army is lying to the U.S. and still playing games, while average Pakistani citizens are getting butchered. If this is true, it appears that Pakistani lives are expendable to the Pak Army, so that the PA can maintain integrity of their proxy war assets.

Again I predicted this many times before that the PA would be doing a lackluster fight and doing whatever they do, only to suit their own econonic political and strategic maneuvering.

Time will tell if the liars in Pindi and Islamabad have such motives.

Posted by GW | Report as abusive
 

Thanks for providing the link to the HuffPost article, GW. I have been intrigued by the statements Pakistani officials kept issuing all summer about an impending Waziristan offensive. To an outsider it is a bit puzzling to announce your intentions before launching a military operation.

Posted by Sanjeev Miglani | Report as abusive
 

He that diggeth a pit shall fall into it; and whoso breaketh an hedge, a serpent shall bite him.

Posted by indian1127 | Report as abusive
 

This will be totally irrational to equate repression of Indian Army in Kashmir with terrorist upsurge in South Wazirastan which is a threat to international peace as UN in various resolutions has condemned likewise terrorism.

The people of Kashmir are struggling for their rights which accepted by United Nation.

More so, Terrorism and militancy in South Waziristan is sponsored and backed by India. If there was any doubt about it, is no more after capturing heavy Indian weapons, maps and military IDs in South Waziristan.

So, in Kashmir the problem faced by India is indigenous and people there are struggling for their rights which has nothing to do with terrorism.

Posted by Aishaa | Report as abusive
 

as a guest i read with great interest the commentary from various participants.to nourish your thoughts one should not forget that:
.the waziri pushtoons have fought the colonial army for over one hundred years while the whole of india was ruled by the brits during that time.pakistan army despite their areal bombardment will face similar fate.
.militancy is not born but simply a reaction of some against the oppressor.it is sad that there is an unrest throughout pakistan from baluchistan to swat.the govt. should use dialogue and not force.
.pa concentration on kashmir borders is a friendly warning and should not be construed by india as a confrontation.both countries know that the dispute if not resolved peacefully will end in a nuclear disaster.

Posted by rex minor | Report as abusive
 

More so, Terrorism and militancy in South Waziristan is sponsored and backed by India. If there was any doubt about it, is no more after capturing heavy Indian weapons, maps and military IDs in South Waziristan.
-posted by Aishaa

Oh, really? Then why has no other media apart from the Pakistani media picked up on this and shouted it from the tallest buildings?

My shoes are made in China and if I kick a Japanese man does that mean China is sponsoring me to hurt Japan?

You are no different that those other bloggers who ranted and raved about ‘saffron threads’ of the Mumbai attackers only to be silenced by Pakistan’s admittance that the attackers were from Pakistan.

Posted by bulletfish | Report as abusive
 

Ms. Aishaa you write:

“This will be totally irrational to equate repression of Indian Army in Kashmir with terrorist upsurge in South Wazirastan which is a threat to international peace as UN in various resolutions has condemned likewise terrorism”

We agree that the two are not the same. In Kashmir there were protests against corrupt politicians and election rigging. This is typical in a democratic system and it happens in other parts of India as well. From 1965 until 1989, Kashmiris had learned to live with India. It was a very peaceful state. After the Soviets left, Pakistani military sponsored Mujahideen veterans launched their offensive inside Indian held Kashmir. They used the usual public protest that I mentioned above as the cover and took it to a new dimension. This time it included attacks on the police and violence. The plan was to cause frustration by attacking the police and security forces and disappearing into the crowd who remained silent because of fear of the militants. The Pakistani planners knew that retaliation from the Indian security will come and it would be brutal. Not knowing whom to target, there would be mistakes made, which could be used further to intensify the problem. It was only a matter of time before the situation would snowball into a major headache for India and it would be forced to bring in more of its military into the state. The Pakistani sponsors knew that they just had to trigger their supporters inside the valley and turn this public anguish into a violent struggle. If you see most of this concern for “Kashmiri freedom and rights” comes mostly from Pakistanis.

In parallel to the effort inside Kashmir, Pakistan also made sure that it had the necessary nuclear deterrent available by 1989 so that India would not be able to strike at its training camps inside its territory. And the events that unfolded inside Afghanistan, the emergence of the Taliban, systematic military training of proxy militants etc were to culminate in a major war between India and Pakistan. The plan was to hide the engagement of Pakistani military and project the “Mujahideen” as the front runners in that war. India would be made into the aggressor and Pakistan the defender. Kargil exercise was a dry run in that regard.
Unfortunately Al Qaeda, with its global ambitions, spoiled the party.

Now Pakistani military is fighting its strategic asset in South Waziristan. Hillary has already hinted that it is not adequate. Pakistan will have to go after the other strategic assets it has been trying to preserve. Not having learned any lessons from the current situation, Pakistani military will make things worse for Pakistan as its “children” would begin to turn against it.

Kashmir has been quiet of late hasn’t it? Can you tell us why Ms. Aishaa? That is because your military is busy fighting one of its rebel groups. If there was no internal conflict, Kashmir will be busy. So there is a clear indication that “the struggle for freedom and rights of Kashmiri people” seems to be a Pakistan controlled militant activity that seems to turn on and off based on whether the military is busy with internal engagement or not.

From an Indian stand point, keeping the Pakistani military busy fighting its own arms and legs seems like a good strategy.

So your writing that:

“More so, Terrorism and militancy in South Waziristan is sponsored and backed by India. If there was any doubt about it, is no more after capturing heavy Indian weapons, maps and military IDs in South Waziristan.”

though it lacks any credibility, it might be a good strategic option for India. You people are giving hints to India by accusing it with allegations of this kind. India cannot engage a nuclear armed Pakistan in direct conflict. What worked for Pakistan can work for India. But India has desisted from doing such things for the past two decades. It knows that using criminal activities to gain can backfire, as the case of Pakistan
has clearly showed. That is why it did not engage in Sri Lanka when LTTE was finally wiped out. It could have and sustained a proxy war there and bled Sri Lanka. But India has changed. You all must realize that.

Without credible proof, your allegations against Indian engagement with the Taliban sound ridiculous. The India of the 1970s and 1980s would surely have exploited the situation in Pakistan because your country has turned into a headache for the whole neighborhood. Currently, there is no need for extra effort. Pakistan seems to be collapsing on its own as its citizens have not completely changed their mindset about terrorism yet. They still seem to separate terrorism against them and that against others, as Ms. Aishaa’s writings reflect.

“So, in Kashmir the problem faced by India is indigenous and people there are struggling for their rights which has nothing to do with terrorism.”

See the above argument. There is no indigenous struggle in Kashmir. It is a balloon being pumped by Pakistan and its military. Right now the balloon appears deflated because Pakistan itself is on the verge of deflating.

 

Mr Singh

“If you see most of this concern for “Kashmiri freedom and rights” comes mostly from Pakistanis.”

Firstly you know why Mr Singh, they next of kin of ours to start with , connected through religion, geography, blood and trade and so on. Nor fogetting they are suppose to have peblicite as backed by UN resoulution.

Now please be honest to yourself and answer this, are you telling me and the rest of the world, somehow Pakistan or ISI has big ghost chinhook choppers that take kashmiris/Pakistani to the Indian Occupied kashmir to protest? No! they are the locals living under occupation for the lasy 60 years, Your so called saint army rapes thousands kashmiris and are doing so as I type this, staged killings, Human rights violations, leaders under house arrest, ordinary kashmiris banned from going to mosques, intimidation and most of all pupet regime sponsored by Delhi to supress the rights of the Kashmiris.

We have supported Kashmiris and will carry on doing so morally and personaly we should by all means! As a Kashmiri from Azad Kashmir we know how it feels to have our families separated and can not even travel to our kashmir. What you know sitting in Indian Punjab most likely with your Khalistan dream down the Bombay gutter. You sikhs might NOT have the stomach but Kashmiris do and we will carry on with our struggle and one day your coward army will be sent home inshalah!!!

“From an Indian stand point, keeping the Pakistani military busy fighting its own arms and legs seems like a good strategy.”

You hit the nail in the coffin, as clearly you indirectly admit that its the indians that are donating free money, arms, documents to Taliban. After all why would you have so many counslates in Afghanistan and no wonder now and again it back fires and the counslates gets blown up, maybe when the payment dont reach the terrorist in time and they get upset.

“your country has turned into a headache for the whole neighborhood.”

The only ones we dont have good relation are the indians, you know why maybe we can stand up to you and look into your eyes with the same venom as look at us.We have perfect relationship with Sri-lanka, Iran and so on. Ask yourself wasnt it the indians that helped the Russians to invade and occupy Afghanistan? Was you too young or naieve to acknowldge that… What you been practising in Kashmir you wanted to preach to others and practice also in Afghanistan.

“There is no indigenous struggle in Kashmir.”

I suggest quickly you to get your brain cells, they are overflowing with misinformation from star news. Just go to BBC and read the views of the kashmiris or maybe better go to kashmir and ask the kashmiris. You think your Khalistan dream is down the drain you want us to accept the Indian OCCUPATION… NEVER!!! We rather live one day as a lion or hundred days as jackal…!

Posted by Majid | Report as abusive
 

it makes no sense to blame so called talabans or the indian govt.for the events in pakistan, equally indian govt. is well councelled to end the occupation of kashmir and improve the livelihood of its citizens.it is an illusion on the part of indians to expect either their own military or that of pakistan could suppress resistance from kashmiris living inside or outside pakistan territory.naturaly the instability of the region as a whole is not conducive at present for such an entterprise.there are those who believe that sometimes in chaos things somehow get resolved.the past history of the continent does not support this and the events of recent european history should be a lesson for the world not to put too much emphasis on borders and hagemony or influence.

Posted by rex minor | Report as abusive
 

Why is there so much talk about India ending its occupation of Kashmir? What about Pakistan’s occupation of Kashmir?

Does that not matter as well?

If Pakistanis care about Kashmir, they would push their government to co-ordinate a joint withdrawal with India (of both Pakistani and Indian forces).

Posted by Keith | Report as abusive
 

@This will be totally irrational to equate repression of Indian Army in Kashmir with terrorist upsurge in South Wazirastan which is a threat to international peace as UN in various resolutions has condemned likewise terrorism.
The people of Kashmir are struggling for their rights which accepted by United Nation.”
-says Aishaa

- Comparison is not between the tribes of Waziristan and Kashmiris. Kashmiris are not terrorists so why IA would do what you alleged. It is because of our dear neighbor Pakistan Punjab’s Kasab-equivalents terrorists which IA is focused to repress and Kashmiris are stuck there.
________________________________________ ______
@Operation in Waziristan wiping out terrorism is nearly a distant dream. Someone said in “days”! The elements required are not in place yet.

At least, three factors are needed to wipe terrorism: Military (going on), political solution (absent) and public turning against the terrorists of all kinds (absent or minimal)—I still see many who support Talibans and other groups. Waziristan military operation can surgically remove the cancer but metastasis (public support and supporting ideology for terrorists) will not let the eradication of this cancer.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

Thanks for providing the link to the HuffPost article, GW. I have been intrigued by the statements Pakistani officials kept issuing all summer about an impending Waziristan offensive. To an outsider it is a bit puzzling to announce your intentions before launching a military operation.
- Posted by Sanjeev Miglani

Sanjeev,

I am sure that you, Myra and the other contributors to this blog have your sources. It’s no secret that the Paks have been deceitful about their efforts and the progress of those efforts, with regards to tackling militancy and terrorism.

Have a chat with any diplomat, intelligence official, or ISAF military officer, they’ll tell you that they are fully aware of how much or how little the Pakistanis are doing.

However, this go around, it’s their problem. If they choose not to fight the insurgents sincerely, they’ll suffer for it with increased battlefield casualties and more bombings. If they want to gamble with the security of their country that’s their choice. After all, these fighters change who they work for day-by-day. Yesterday it was the LeT, today it’s as a rented gun for the Mehsud tribe. If the Paks can’t understand this, they’ll pay the price for it.

Posted by Keith | Report as abusive
 

Mr. Majid,

In general you have written sensibly in these blogs. Looks like my words touched your raw nerve. I am no supporter of Khalistani movement. I love the entire sub-continent, including Lahore. We are all distant cousins. It is just that we follow different faiths. But this does not mean that I cannot call a spade a spade.

Kashmir turned into a hell hole not because of Indian army’s oppression. It was pushed to that stage by the Pakistani military. And this is something the Pakistani military has tried since 1965. The Afghan war with the Soviets has been a turning point as far as Kashmir is concerned. It helped the Pakistani military fine tune its proxy war machinery and test it in the field. It is a dangerous weapon with the risk of boomeranging. Had things worked as per the long term plan, India would surely have fallen due to the thousand cuts. Kashmir was the main battle field for this operation. And it could have escalated into further violent acts in the other parts of the union, finally leading to the collapse of India. Kashmir is not suffering because Indians are cruel. It began to choke because Pakistan decided to twist it from the other side. Indian grip has tightened as a result. The only way to loosen this grip is to come to terms with India. Pakistan’s plans failed due to geo-political shifts.

The whole thing is purely political and it has nothing to do with religion, brotherhood etc. If Pakistanis are so caring and concerned about fellow Muslims, I did not see even one Pakistani condemning China’s brutal suppression of the Uighur revolt against the Han Chinese. And most Pakistanis simply refuse to discuss about the genocide of fellow Muslims in East Pakistan.

There are many groups inside India that would like to run a nation on their own. Jinnah got ahead of them before the British left and got his share. But then Bangladesh formed. There are various self serving political leaders inside the Indian democratic system who, if given an opportunity will let others burn in order to upgrade their hold on power. There is the Shiv Sena and its progeny in Mumbai who are using Xenophobia to strengthen their hold in their state. There are the Khalistanis. Once upon a time the Tamils were asking for autonomy. It is a system strung together by cobwebs.

We had leaders like Indira Gandhi who believed in muscling their way into everything. Khalistan and to some extent Kashmir and the North Eastern states experienced a lot more chaos during her tenure.

Militaries are brutal. There is no civil military anywhere. One should never throw stones at them and expect them to offer flowers in return. The first thing Kashmiris should do is to help assuage Indian concerns. It cannot be one sided. Just because you are Muslims, it does not give you the right to demand exclusiveness in everything. There are states like Uttar Pradesh in India that have more Muslims than those in Kashmir and they are not demanding a separate nation. Religion should not be used as a reason for forming nations. Pakistan’s failure is a clear example of where it will lead to.
If you want the Indian military to loosen its grips inside Kashmir, the first thing your people have to do is to shun those militants and their supporters who are wreaking havoc inside Kashmir. Indian military is there to fight them and not the people. The UN plebiscite snake has been beaten to death. It requires Pakistan to remove its military from Azad Kashmir as a first condition. And it hasn’t happened for the past six decades. Shimla accord signed in 1972 pretty much replaced the 1948 UN resolution. Therefore a new resolution has to be drafted. But both India and Pakistan have to come to an agreement on it. In today’s situation, I do not see much room for that.

Kashmir is being used by Pakistani military as a pawn in its engagement with India. Until there is a sincere effort to desist from it, there is no room for any progress. Right now Kashmir is very quiet. The reason is all the firings have stopped from the Pakistan side. Militants are sitting and waiting for the next signal and it is not coming. And most of those militants are not Kashmiris. They are cruel monsters. So do not count on them. They will turn Kashmir into another Afghanistan under the Taliban. Do not be emotional in your demand.

 

@Majid,

Talking to some of you Pakistanis, or even sincerely attempting to bring sense to your fragile psyche is a futile effort and nothing better than talking to a wall.

It is obvious you Pakistani’s are victims of propaganda and an alternate set of history books. All of this was done for a few good reasons, by your masters, but the obvious one is to fuel the ideology of Pakistan by any means possible, conspiracies, half-truths, lies, which told over and over again become accepted as truths, especially when politicians there need votes and repeat lies told decades ago, as though they are truths.

The only truth that will become evident to Pakistanis, is that their country is about to be set on fire by Militants. They, the Islamic militants are starting indiscriminant retribution against the military by taking random suicide missions against innnocent civilians.

Please set Kashmir aside. For the record, all of Kashmir was asceded by Prince Maharaja Hari Singh to India, in return for protection from Pathan Thugs who were sent to slaughter Hindus and place a half-moon crescent flag on Delhi. We Indians are soft and have chosen not to pursue your portion of Kashmir, which legally and rightfully belongs to India, all of the Pakistan’s portion of it. Any subsequent UN resolutions stating otherwise were shortsighted and ignored the facts.

Posted by GW | Report as abusive
 

Majid says:

“You sikhs might NOT have the stomach but Kashmiris do and we will carry on with our struggle and one day your coward army will be sent home inshalah!!!”

–>First of all, please refrain from belittling our brave Sikh Lions. Just to reiterate history, some of the Sikh Gurus, were actually killed by muslims, I am sure you know of that, most Sikhs do. Secondly, Sikhs are one of the most respected, successful, tolerant and friendly peoples of India and the most successful diaspora, please do not insult their potential by bringing up Khalistan. The prime minister is Sikh and Sikhs enjoy much status in Indian society as productive, contributing members in India and worldwide, no one can match their hardwork and perseverance, but please do not ever put our brave Sikhs in such a little league as yours, cavorting with terrorists and chasing little dreams, full of blame, hatred, lack of introspection and embracing violence and the dark ages. Sikhs are a part of the Indian family and India is incomplete without them and they are one of the greatest things in terms of culture and among the best of what India has to offer the world. The Sikhs are a nation unto themselves and achieved far more than the oppressed and Jizya’d Sikhs who live like second class Kaffirs in Pakistan. In fact, much of Khalistan, should perhaps be formed out of Pakistan’s Punjab area, it is actually where most of the Short lived Sikh Empire existed at one point in time, feel free to surrender it to the Sikhs in Pakistan and others may join if they wish.

Kashmir has artificially been made into a fictitious struggle, due to the strategic and political maneuvering by the Pakistani Army to fuel unrest and separatism, through the use of Proxy Armies.

If you feel Indians are involved in terrorism, let any Pakistan come forward with proof. Even your great Army and ISI agencies know it is not true, that is why no dossiers or evidence has been given, because there is none to give.

If you want to help your bretheren, you should actually contact the Govt of China and urge them to give the Uighers, your Islamic brothers, their own country. China just executed 9 Muslim Uighers, I never heard one Pakistani say a thing, and yes, nothing from you either, nor any other Muslim nation, or the Arabs.

Please keep your selective morality for discussion amongst your friends. You just ridiculted yourself, with hollow, baseless assertions, not founded in reality, but on the propaganda news you hear every night in Pakistan.

Lastly, any crimes by the Indian Army should be followed up, investigated and those soldiers, brought to justice. As an Indian, that is my official stand on a crime committed on any innocents.

How about the Bengali Genocide with 2.5million Hindus and 500000 muslims being genocided, do you have any comment on that, or pure silence? Are the Kashmir muslim lives worth more than Uighers, or Bengali Muslims?

Feel free to stay silent on the Pak Army Genocide. The stain of blood is still fresh, as not one Pakistani here has the courage to admit the mistakes and attrocities their army committed there.

Please take your pleads and plights to the mental asylum. They ring hollow and carry no weight. Nobody is listening.

Posted by GW | Report as abusive
 

Sanjeev,

Attached is a article posted on http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/papers3 5/paper3499.html

I had posted a comment highlighting this saudi sponsored Jihad as the core of Al-Qaeda – Taliban terrorism and seeking a UN resoluion against wahabism, unfortunately my post was not printed. I don’t expect this post to be printed either however my point of view has been vindicated.

Posted by uday kumar | Report as abusive
 

Kashmir and Jammu is an integral part of India and will remain so. Pakistanis butchered their OWN people in 1971 and now cry rivers for Kashmiris. What Kashmiris are there in POK? In 1989 when terrorists started to come across the LoC, they killed and forced our the ‘indiginous’ Hindu Pandits and their families. This is why there are so many Indian troops in Kashmir.

Over 90,000 Pakistani PoWs were released from the 1971 war in exchange for bilateral dialogue over Kashmir. However, after terrorists started to filter across the border, India knew that Pakistan can never be trusted. Now, even the Americans know that Pakistan cannot be trusted otherwise their would be no conditions to the Kerry-Lugar Bill.

Posted by bulletfish | Report as abusive
 

Majid writes: “We rather live one day as a lion or hundred days as jackal…!”

Just pelting stones against a military does not make you guys into lions. And those who are supporting you from the other side of the LoC are more like jackals. I am surprised that you guys are relying on those jackals to wage your fights.

And your comment stating your superiority to Sikhs is very sick. Do not let your emotions fly out of control.

With words of these kind, you are losing the support of moderate people who have tried to understand the plight of Kashmiris and sympathize with them.

Remember this and tell this to everyone – violence begets more violence. So do not rely on violence to stake any claims. It only things a lot harder to accomplish. You must look at your Muslim brothers in Pakistan who are paying the price for relying on force and violence to achieve their goals. At the end, they have lost half their nation. Their own people are fighting their army and are blowing up their own people. Being unable to swallow the truth, they are blaming others.

 

Some Pakistanis on this blog who have blown the usual trumpet of blaming Mossad/CIA/RAW should look at this article that has appeared in the DAWN.

http://blog.dawn.com/2009/11/12/a-nation -of-sleepwalkers/

It highlights the syndrome that is afflicting the Pakistani psyche. Many Pakistanis are still in denial of the real cause of their misery.

 

Sanjeev,

Why give credence to insurgents’ claims? As you’ve pointed out the fight is different. Despite the braying of Pakistanis, there is no evidence (that the international community accepts) that the insurgents in the hills of Waziristan are backed by outsiders (India, Afghanistan, the US or somebody else).

And they don’t have the safe havens that Kashmiri insurgents maintain in Kashmir (often defended by the Pakistan Army to boot). There is no way that these insurgents could sustain themselves for long, unmolested in Afghanistan. NATO and the Afghans don’t want them there and would pursue them sooner or later. Unlike the Pakistanis, NATO understands that insurgents are dangerous regardless of who they are targeting.

So let’s rubbish these claims now and not have fine writers such as yourself become conduits of insurgent propaganda.

Posted by Keith | Report as abusive
 

Majid,

You & your morally, financially & literally bankrupt establishment can keep sponsoring the proxy war in Kashmir like you guys have been doing for the last 20+ years, it doesn’t really matter. All you have, to show for it, is a prosperous India, not an inch of Indian Kashmir & a ‘Failed State’ in Pakistan. So, keep up the good work & pretty soon, you’ll have a failed & disintegrated Pakistan. Stay focused on Kashmir while Baluchistan, NWFP/FATA & others head for the exits.
The Kashmiris are being slowly but surely assimilated into India. They are just starting to taste the economic prosperity that the rest of India has been experiencing for the last 10-15 yrs. Pretty soon they will start realizing that they wanna be a part of an economic power like India & not of a failed country which is also the terror capital of the world. So, Pakistanis like you can keep hallucinating & fantasizing about Kashmir all you want after all is doesn’t cost anything.
As far as your rant about the Sikhs is concerned, your frustration is quite apparent since your dream of dismembering India by creating ‘Khalistan’ did not succeed. As a sikh, I can tell you that ‘Khalistan’ was never a dream of the Sikh community. It was a dream of Pakistan & Pakistanis like yourself. Your establishment brain-washed a few wavered people but failed miserably. Sikhs are a part of India & will always be. If you really wanna know about the ‘STOMACH’ of the sikhs, you can go & ask about it from some of your generals & military personal who have fought in the 1947, 1965, 1971 & Kargil wars. They’ll tell you about it.

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive
 

I agree with Keith.

Paks have been thoroughly exposed beyond doubt on their sponsorship of terrorism in the region. Now the paks are desperately indulging in propaganda and lies and no one is buying them.

Posted by Rj | Report as abusive
 

Why not compare it with the North-east in India? India I guess has been fighting a very low intensity war there. It is, as if, the region is perpetually hanging between stability and instability. The same might happen in Pakistan. While Afghanistan militants might not support the Pak Taliban, it is lawless enough to provide the strategic depth to the Taliban which the Pak army once wanted for itself. The imaginary border enforced by Nato and the pak army adds to this depth to create a Kashmir like situation.

Posted by Hara | Report as abusive
 

An excerpt from an article by Nadeem Pracha (Dawn) highlighting the current Pakistani state of mind:

“Pakistanis routinely continue to deny the fact that the monsters who are behind all the faithful barbarism that is cutting this country into bits are the mutant product of what our governments, military, intelligence agencies, and society as a whole have been up to in the past 30 years or so.

Well, this is exactly what happens to a society that responds so enthusiastically to all the major symptoms of fascist thought. Symptoms such as powerful and continuing nationalism; disdain for the recognition of human rights; identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause; supremacy of the military; obsession with national security; the intertwining of religion and government; disdain for intellectuals and the arts; an obsession with crime and punishment, etc.

Have not the bulk of Pakistanis willingly allowed themselves to be captured in all the macho and paranoid trappings of the above-mentioned symptoms of collective psychosis. It clearly smacks of a society that has been ripening and readying itself for an all-round fascist scenario.”

http://blog.dawn.com/2009/11/12/a-nation -of-sleepwalkers/

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive
 

Minor point. The only part of Kashmir (Indian + Pak) where Kashmiri is spoken is the valley, which is in India. The inhabitants of the oxymoronic “Azad Kashmir” do not speak Kashmiri (a few related dialects perhaps but NOT Kashmiri). They happened to be a part of the Maharaja’s state of Kashmir so they retained the nomenclature.

Posted by NA | Report as abusive
 

@Sanjeev, other bloggers, please read link.

http://www.worldpoliticsreview.com/artic le.aspx?id=4603

Sanjeev, please see the link above. It is reported that the coward militants are just escaping and scattering to other parts of Pakistan to avoid the PA offensive head on. Little damage is actually being done to the Pak Army, which would explain how the Militants are claiming to be able to fight the Army for 20 years. Nice littel arrangement to extort money from the U.S. for 20 years, they are probably sharing the loot with the Militant cadre, to pay for their food, weapons and supplies to use against NATO troops in Afghanistan.

It appears that the PA’s internal directive to protect Militant cadres for deep storage future use is working, while at the same time, they can cherry pick and make easy kills to show the world that they are actually doing something.

I am just wondering when all of the stake holders are going to get fed up with befuddling and obfuscation by the Pak Army.

Militantism is not going to be rid by the PA, but by an outside force it seems. That outside force may have to be NATO. The entire war theatre may just have to be expanded to stretch from Kashmir to Kabul. It appears the lackluster half-hearted Pak Army is not willing to use finality and bone-crushing pre-emptive, pro-active force or even take the Militants by surprise.

Taking the militants by surprise will be a huge gain strategically, but Pak Army seems to not thing that the element of surprise is necessary, rather than the element of forwarning the enemy is more productive. This all appears very funny to us outsiders.

Posted by GW | Report as abusive
 

Mortal said:

“Sikhs are a part of India & will always be. If you really wanna know about the ‘STOMACH’ of the sikhs, you can go & ask about it from some of your generals & military personal who have fought in the 1947, 1965, 1971 & Kargil wars. They’ll tell you about it.”

–>Sikhs in Pakistan and India are a culturally and politically a different breed, despite the food language and religion. Many Sikhs in Pakistan were forced or just gave up and became muslims, because it was easier to live that way. Sikhs in India have gone in a completely different direction and propelled themselves on the forefront of many great endeavors across the world and India. I feel sorry for the lost potential of the Sikhs in Pakistan. Sikhs are a truly great and admirable people and are moderate and forward thinking Unfortunately, Pakistan has tried to weaponize non-mainstream, extremist Sikh thinking against India and failed and all Indian Sikhs have risen far above than being hijacked by a cabal of terrorists, supplied, mentored and nurtured by Pak State agencies.

Posted by GW | Report as abusive
 

ISI has control over all terrorist organizations: Musharraf

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/podcast s/fareedzakaria/site/2009/11/08/gps.podc ast.11.08.cnn

Posted by Soman | Report as abusive
 

Our Peshawar ISI head quarters has been hit just now. If ISI was the villain as the Indians claim, why would the terrorists attack its head quarters? It is clear to us Pakistanis who is really behind these attacks. The plan is to create enough chaos inside Pakistan and cause confusion. And then the plan would be to use that confusion to convince the US and its allies in going after our nukes. But beware! Pakistan will not tolerate this kind of clever activities. Soon those who are behind these cowardly actions will be made to pay dearly.

 

@mr anjun,one comment.even mr obama is not regularly using the name “terrorist” any more.this spin was given life by george w administration.your isi should at least publish the names of people who are on the cia payroll.pushtoons have retaliated against brits in the uk in 19th century and they will definitely react against pa establishments in cities.naturally your speculation about foreign hand in this turmoil is logical but you should jump to a conclusion without evidence.this strategy has always been used by your leaders as a spin.you have real problems within your establishment!!

Posted by rex minor | Report as abusive
 

@soman,it would too simple to believe fareed zakari(not zakaria) as pronounced by him and musharaf, both of whom are of indian origin and are on the payroll of cnn.they are foreign to your culture and do not normally mean what they say.isi is no different than cia, m5 etc.they all have their stregnths and weaknesses.

Posted by rex minor | Report as abusive
 

Mohammad Anjum,

To us Indians, your ISI has always been a villain who provided weapons and training to terrorists who filter across the LoC. This is nothing new.

There is already enough chaos in Pakistan caused by the terrorists you created. How are your nukes going to help you against these terrorists?

Your warnings of ‘beware’ are extremely late going by the number of people butchered in previous attacks.

Calling these activities clever is an ‘insult’ to those who have been killed in these attacks. It shows that you have a degree of admiration for the attackers. you really need to improve on your choice of words.

Posted by bulletfish | Report as abusive
 

although the two episodes are not comparable, one military action is to suppress the resistance and the other one a plain aggression into the autonomous waziri region. however,i find one could subjectively compare two ingredients;
1)foreign armies are involved in the campaign.
2)mr rajeev’s anology about aerial bombardment by pakistan army to soften the targets, whereas, indian army has refrained from bombing their own citizens as they still consider the kashmiris.
this alone should make pakistanis ashamed of their military outfit and the so called civilian govt.

Posted by rex minor | Report as abusive
 

““You sikhs might NOT have the stomach but Kashmiris do and we will carry on with our struggle and one day your coward army will be sent home inshalah!!!” Majid

In a nut shell – delusions of grandeur.

Obviously no knowledge or even the basic concpt of Sikh history and tradition.

 

ISI has declared that not only is it in contact with Afghan Taliban leader Mullah Mohammed Omar but that it can bring him and other commanders to the negotiating table with the United States.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/07  /10/pakistan.taliban.omar/index.html

Posted by Soman | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan Army has plenty of experience and is moving in the right direction. The terrorist’s picnic in Waziristan is over. As Pakistan Army moves in, caves and safe havens of terrorists are abandoned now. The Army is deploying a better strategy, with Special forces entering the areas first and clearing them. Making way for regular units to move in and hold territory. No need for hundereds of thousands of troops for such targetted ops. And Pakistani soldier is tough.
No doubt the Army and ISI are being hit, but retaliation is under way. You will all be discussing the situation in Southern Punjab in three months from now. The Army has started its work there covertly as of now, tip offs are being recieved, and terrorist & criminal elements are being cordoned there. This will be a multiprong operation. And specially those who dont get tired labelling Pakistan a failed state will see the strength as Pakistan will eliminate every anti-state element one by one InshAllah.

What we see now is a sustained effort by anti-Pakistan forces out to undermine Pakistan and a fight back by our security services.

Posted by Umair | Report as abusive
 

Mr. Anjum,

Have a look at the link below. Let me know what you think of Nadeem Paracha’s article. I am fairly sure he’s talking about guys like you.

http://blog.dawn.com/2009/11/12/a-nation -of-sleepwalkers/

Posted by Keith | Report as abusive
 

If ISI was the villain as the Indians claim, why would the terrorists attack its head quarters?
-Posted by Mohammad Anjum

Might it not have something to do with ISI telling the US which villages to drone and the Army attacking the Taliban? If they were brazen enough to attack Rawalpindi, what makes you think the Taliban would think twice about attacking an office in Peshawar?

Posted by Keith | Report as abusive
 

Pakistani controllers behind Fort hood shootings, that killed 13 brave American Heros!

Fort Hood shooting suspect sent money to Pakistan, Texas congressman says
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/ dws/news/texassouthwest/stories/DN-charg es_13ent.ART.State.Edition2.4b4cdc1.html

Posted by Aamir | Report as abusive
 

I MUST have touched some nerves, definetly when I said Khalistan movement might NOT had the stomach but we Kashmiris do.

Firstly that is a FACT! When I went to the UK and toured some universties I seen a lot of young sikhs wearing the tops with Khalistan Lions. It made me laugh what Khalistan? The movement tat got buried in their holiest shrines…I dont mean no disrespect at all and I do agree that sikhs are very kind hearted and so on as I have few friends too.

I am sorry I dont belive Sikhs are different in Pakistan to India, how can they be when most of them moved from Lahore. What makes them different the one wanted to stay is Sikhs they did. As the family that got affected in Swat (Sikh family) it was locals that protected them yes at points they were harassed by the taliban fanatics but than so are the muslims.

Its NOT about religion, its about Kashmiris having their own homeland as they did before indian/pakis had theirs. So called puppet mahraja sign some paper firstly he did ot represent the majorty/ or respected their eishes he knew he was going to lose to why NOt just sign it.

If UN resoulution snake is buried, in Delhi I gather but not in the Kashmir valley? Anyway UN only approves occupation/agression/Injustice if it did not and was so functional we would have seen end to Palestinan sufferening, Kashmir occupation, Chechnya blood shed and dont forgot the countless graves still being found in Kosovo at the dorr step of europe. You preach human rights and democracies but dont practive one inch of it. Asd proven lock up all sepratist leaders in kashmir just allow the one that want to be delhi pupets. So go to hell with them, India can NOT buy Kashmiris hearts with money even though thats what most Indian are wishing. Because they are NOT for sale and we will let the 70,000 sacrifices just go down the drain…

Posted by Majid | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan Army, the other name of LeT

Brigitte, a Frenchman originally from France’s Caribbean department of Guadeloupe, had gone to Pakistan shortly after Sept. 11 to try to reach Afghanistan. Unable to make it, he had been sent to a Lashkar centre outside Lahore. A man named Sajid Mir became his handler.

“He quickly understood that Sajid belonged to the regular Pakistan army,” wrote Bruguiere.

During his 2-1/2 month stay at the camp, Bruguiere says, Brigitte realised the instructors were soldiers on detachment. Military supplies were dropped by army helicopters.

Brigitte said he and other foreigners were forced four times to leave the camp and move further up into the hills to avoid being caught by CIA officers.

They were believed to be checking if Pakistan had kept to a deal under which the Americans turned a blind eye to Lashkar camps in Punjab provided no foreigners were trained there.

http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCri sis/idUSLC383495

Posted by Sameer | Report as abusive
 

The tale of two missing Baloch

* Marri’s brother says no police station willing to register case of his brother’s disappearance due to intelligence agencies’ involvement
* Dr Din’s brother says court keeps on giving new dates

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp  ?page=2009\11\13\story_13-11-2009_pg7_4 8

Posted by Ramin | Report as abusive
 

‘The whole of Pakistan is anti-American’
A Britisher’s View

“The problem is that we want American dollars but we, as a country, hate Americans,” a former ambassador from the Islamic Republic of Pakistan to Washington told the McClatchy Washington Bureau in an interview

No surprise there, given Pakistan’s double face, beggar’s hand and thirst for revenge.

http://www.yournabe.com/articles/2009/11  /12/brooklyn_graphic/news/columnists/br ooklyn_graphic_newscolumnistsbotamrh1112 2009.txt

Posted by NOrman | Report as abusive
 

Soon those who are behind these cowardly actions will be made to pay dearly.

- Posted by Mohammad Anjum
===

When you peddle stories like that you should think about how much people will buy them. Credibility of pakistan army, ISI has sunk to new lows lately.

More credible explanation is ISI trained and nurtured terrorists to be used against India and Afghanistan. Now they are biting the hands that fed them.

 

Pakistan-China-N Korea: Axis of Evils!!!

A nuclear power’s act of proliferation
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con tent/article/2009/11/12/AR2009111211060. html?hpid=topnews

Posted by Randy | Report as abusive
 

A nation of free loaders …

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/83 38407.stm

Posted by Ahis | Report as abusive
 

@Our Peshawar ISI head quarters has been hit just now. If ISI was the villain as the Indians claim, why would the terrorists attack its head quarters?”
– Posted by Mohammad Anjum

–For the same reasons they targeted GHQ and Police academy.

“It is clear to us Pakistanis who is really behind these attacks.”
–Who?

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 
 

“Our Peshawar ISI head quarters has been hit just now. If ISI was the villain as the Indians claim, why would the terrorists attack its head quarters?”

:) , Don’t know where to start. :)
okay you are funny and you know that!

It happened in front of ISI building at a checkpost outside, most probably done by TTP and happend at 6:40 AM.

Do ISI personnel reach office that early Anjum? Or are they so much swamped with “work” that they sleep in offices overnight?

The smart foreign suicide bomber of smart RAW/Mossad/CIA just woke up, brushed his teeth and reached the office so that he may kill some high profile ISI officers at 6:40 AM? Won’t that be stupid on these powerful external agencies’ part?

Please find out and share with other about who exactly died in that blast. Most likely some under-paid policemen or low-profile civilians whose lives are of no value in the Land of the Pure. To me it seems that only ISI can gain (by posing as victim) by such a “non-lethal” blast.

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive
 

i saw the interview with musharraf on cnn.
paks army and isi claims a strategic depth by having partnership with all the terror outfits in afpak.

watch from minute 17.00 part of the interview. ISI has control over all terrorist organizations: Musharraf

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/podcast s/fareedzakaria/site/2009/11/08/gps.podc ast.11.08.cnn

 

Our Peshawar ISI head quarters has been hit just now. If ISI was the villain as the Indians claim, why would the terrorists attack its head quarters?
- Posted by Mohammad Anjum

Why does it surprise you? Do you think terrorists are battery powered pre-programmed robots that can only go north or east?

Why is it troubling you so much now? You didn’t show much concern when ISI trained Haqqanis or LeT are doing same in Afganistan or India!!!

ISI has been investing in these terrorists for last 30 years to do exactly what they are doing now! Which part is unexpected?

Posted by Sammy | Report as abusive
 

“Our Peshawar ISI head quarters has been hit just now. If ISI was the villain as the Indians claim, why would the terrorists attack its head quarters? It is clear to us Pakistanis who is really behind these attacks. The plan is to create enough chaos inside Pakistan and cause confusion. And then the plan would be to use that confusion to convince the US and its allies in going after our nukes. But beware! Pakistan will not tolerate this kind of clever activities. Soon those who are behind these cowardly actions will be made to pay dearly.
- Posted by Mohammad Anjum ”

–>First of all Anjum, let me say the loss of Pakistani life was regretful and horrible, those innocent people were taken by cowards.

The terrorists are it seems, attacking any government agency that they can, it seems some of them are getting desperate.

Please be careful to point fingers to outside sources, as often it happens, you Pakistani’s do this and proof of Pakistan’s own terrorists are always the culprit, ie MUMBAI and others. These Taliban types take pride on these sort of attacks and they might get more offended if you blame outside sources.

It seems that home grown militants have declared suicide Jihad on Pakistan.

Who ever did those cowardly attacks on civilian soft targets, should be punished. I will hedge that it was done by the homegrown Taliban for retribution against State agencies for the latest offensives. Time will show that.

Anjum, it is time that you revisited your own emotional state and ask yourself, who would really do this, in light of the recent offensives. Let’s leave it at that.

These types of cowardly attacks have all been claimed by Mehsud in recent history.

Posted by GW | Report as abusive
 

@Anjum,

If you are worried about Pakistan’s security. Kindly send Gen. Abbas and Gen. Kiyani a letter and and ask them to re-allocate Kashmiri soldier assets to the cities, to make them safer for the citizens. Your army is risking Pakistani lives by leaving cities weak and its citizens exposed. The ARmy has a duty to beef up security, train the police and army in Urban Counter INsurgency warfare.

That is a minimums step that your precious army can do for its citizens, if it cares for them. I doubt the Pak Army sincerely cares about your security, they still are keeping hundreds of thousands of soldiers pointed at India, while the Taliban takes free shots in your cities and go unchallenged.

Times are dangerous Anjum, please conduct yourself carefully.

If you don’t know who is doing the terrorist attacks, perhaps you should seek out Hakimullah Mehsud and ask him. I am sure, he will stake claim at these attacks.

Posted by GW | Report as abusive
 

Sammy you said:

“ISI has been investing in these terrorists for last 30 years to do exactly what they are doing now! Which part is unexpected?”

–>It is funny how bad Karma comes back to those who propagate it. Perhaps Hindus have figured out a thing or two in 6,000 years of existence.

I still cannot believe Paks indulge in conspiracy stories, while their country falls apart.

India has to do nothing, Pakistani’s are doing it to themselves and not willing to leverag their government for real action.

If India had any hand in thing here, Pak and India would have gone to war a long time ago, Pak ARmy and ISI know that, Mr. Anjum. You should take their inaction against India, as a silent que that India is not involved.

Posted by GW | Report as abusive
 

Our Peshawar ISI head quarters has been hit just now. If ISI was the villain as the Indians claim, why would the terrorists attack its head quarters?
- Posted by Mohammad Anjum

It is the ISI bombing it’s own empty building to ask for more US aid and sympathy. I am sure ISI will use this event to ward off forceful US officials. Gen. Jones was supposed to arrive at Islamabad with the new Pak to-do list.

Why would a half-brained terrorist bomb an empty building. Those 10-20 people dead are all poor civilians on road or sleeping on footpath. How many ISI officials are dead?

ISI is going a new everyday!

Posted by Robin | Report as abusive
 

It is definitely a new low for ISI!

ISI is bombing it’s own empty building and killing poor Pakistanis to get more US aid and sympathy!

Posted by Robin | Report as abusive
 

State of Denial!

http://video.nytimes.com/video/2009/11/1 1/world/1247465633296/tuning-out-the-tal iban.html?ref=world
- Posted by Ramin

Wow. Thanks for that. Now we can see where guys like Umair and Mohammad Anjum get their views. Too bad they don’t listen to guys like Nadeem Paracha instead of the cowardly musicians.

Ironically, the Taliban would kill off those musicians even if they were speaking out against the US in a heartbeat if they got the chance. Or it would take away their livelihood by banning music.

Maybe Pakistanis will come to their senses some day and speak out against these extremists who are destroying their country. Inshallah.

Posted by Keith | Report as abusive
 

@soman,it would too simple to believe fareed zakari(not zakaria) as pronounced by him and musharaf, both of whom are of indian origin and are on the payroll of cnn.they are foreign to your culture and do not normally mean what they say.isi is no different than cia, m5 etc.they all have their stregnths and weaknesses.
- Posted by rex minor

Another tin-foil wearer. So Musharraf’s view does not count because he was Indian born and maybe got a stipend for an interview? wow. How racist are you?

As for Fareed Zakaria (we spell his name the way he spells it), he remains one of the most respected journalists in the world. If anything, he’s way too sensitive when interviewing South Asian guests. He never asked Musharraf any tough follow up questions despite some obvious fumbling by Musharraf.

I’ll take Fareed Zakaria’s apparent bias over ignorant racism anytime.

Posted by Keith | Report as abusive
 

@ Anjum: “Our Peshawar ISI head quarters has been hit just now. If ISI was the villain as the Indians claim, why would the terrorists attack its head quarters?”

How about this for a theory: The ISI probably staged the whole thing in order victimize itself & gain the support of the US & west?
You probably raised your eyebrows & shook your head after reading that. Well, now you know how the rest of us feel when you & others drop in your tin foil hat conspiracy theories.

@ GW: “Sikhs in Pakistan and India are a culturally and politically a different breed, despite the food language and religion”

GW, there are hardly any sikhs left in Pakistan. According to the US Dept of State, Pakistan’s sikh population was app. 20,000. Most of those sikhs lived in the NWFP. They speak Pashto & consider themselves Pashtun. Besides that, there are a few very small sikh communities living in Punjab in places where the shrines are located. With what’s happened in the NWFP in the last couple of years, I would assume that quite a few of the sikhs living there would’ve migrated to India, Afghanistan or other countries.

@Ramin: “State of Denial!
http://video.nytimes.com/video/2009/11/1 1/world/1247465633296/tuning-out-the-tal iban.html?ref=world

Thanks for the video link. Explains why the young educated Pakistanis are also living in denial.

Posted by Mortal | Report as abusive
 

Mr. Robin you wrote: “ISI is bombing it’s own empty building and killing poor Pakistanis to get more US aid and sympathy!”

ISI acts on the interests of Pakistan. It has the most patriotic Pakistanis in service. Without the ISI, we could not have kept India and other enemies of Pakistan in check. Just like your RAW acts in the interests of India, the ISI works in the interests of Pakistan.

If you believe in the idea that the ISI blew its own offices up in order to win sympathy, then you must be able to believe the idea that the Mossad and the CIA staged the 9/11 attacks through their Arab agents staying at Germany. That might have helped the US return to this region. War on terrorism is actually a war for Central Asian Oil pipe line. Someone asked why the US is still sympathetic to Pakistan. That is because Pakistan is sitting directly in the path of that oil pipe line. That is why it confined its attacks to Afghanistan. Israel is definitely concerned about our nukes. That is another reason why the US is sitting in Afghanistan, creating the chaos inside Pakistan. At some point they will use the excuse of extremism to take our nukes out. ISI building attack was staged to show that our nuclear installations are not safe either. They are trying to weaken our military by engaging it in wars with our own brethren. Divide and rule has been the policy of the Westerners for a long time. So they are trying to cut inroads into our nation by destabilizing the region, setting up camp in Afghanistan and now they are rattling Pakistan. We know what’s going on. We trusted them and they are stabbing us on our backs. The US had no issues with the Taliban before. They have no issues with them even now. So we are wondering why they have to have such an army presence and an occupation of Afghanistan with a corrupt puppet in charge. If they wanted Bin Laden, they would have taken him out long ago. But they are beating around the bush for some reason for the past 8 years. Look at what happened to Pakistan in the meantime. Mossad is all over it, along with CIA. They are using the RAW agent Mehsud by supplying arms from the Indian consulates inside Afghanistan. No one wants to hear our words. Our PM did give the dossier to Mr. Singh. But people only want to hear what they want to hear.

We are in a difficult time. We know that. But we will emerge victors. We will clear all the RAW/Mossad/CIA agents from our region. We will hold our ground until the Americans tire and leave. Then we will recover. That must send shivers down the spines of some people.

 

@@soman,it would too simple to believe fareed zakari(not zakaria) as pronounced by him and musharaf, both of whom are of indian origin and are on the payroll of cnn.they are foreign to your culture and do not normally mean what they say…..”
- Posted by rex minor

–A comment here on F.Zakaria. His mother is an employee in Taj Hotel that terrorists attacked. She was not there when this happened or something like that. His brothers apts/condos are near the action site. He spent sometime on GPS on this. That’s how I know. He is not an outsider here and is perhaps more insider than many of Indian commenters abroad since he has expertise to backup. Somehow I hate this word “Payroll”. He is an employee of CNN–so natural. No idea about Mushy/payroll stuff.

Posted by rajeev | Report as abusive
 

dear mohd anjum, pakistan is keeping its peoples and country integrated by pointing fingures on india for what ever happened in pakistan. otherwise pakistan could have broken. because pakistan is the muslim country of different ethinic people. now they can come out of the present crises only if they create war like situation with india. your ISI is working in that end. that is the reason mumbai was attaked. now they are already trying to portray in your minds that india is backing taliban. every one knows who created taliban and at whose behest and for what purpose. why this cannot be the reason for the isi to bomb its empty buildings

Posted by venkat | Report as abusive
 

Anjum, if we are to believe that half a dozen foreign intelligence agencies are somehow co-ordinating the downfall of Pakistan (because that will make it safer for the pipeline they want?) then it’s entirely acceptable to think that the ISI blew up its own building. Conspiracy theories flow both ways. How else do you explain an attack at 0640 when nobody was at work?

Posted by Keith | Report as abusive
 

It’s the world against Pakistan I say!

And we’ll start by blowing up empty office buildings, very early in the morning to minimize casualties. ‘Cause we’re civilized terrorists!

Posted by Keith | Report as abusive
 

- Posted by Mohammad Anjum

What you are saying is nothing new! Since thousands of years, dictators/army always justify serious external threat to grab and hold on to power.

Is India invading Nepal, Sri lanka, Burma, Bangladesh everyday? India didn’t even cross the border in to Bangladesh when India knew all ULFA/ISI training camps across the border in Bangladesh. India didn’t even cross the border in Kargil war. In 1971 war, after winning the war, India returned all newly occupied Kashmir lands to Pakistan.

It is sad that ISI/Army just need to put RAW/CIA color ot TTP, Mehsuds to gain support of Pakistanis and justify appropriating 3/4th of Pakistan’s national budget. Mehsuds/TTP were not CIA/RAW agents when ISI/army were signing shady peace deals with them? Even two months back, TTP announced in press that it will fight along side army and against India if Pakistan goes to war with INdia. What does that tell you?

It is really sad that army/politicians have to lie to their people to get support! But these lying-cycle will never stop and each lie will do a bigger damage to Pakistan!

Posted by Sammy | Report as abusive
 

Dear Anjum,
The LeT, JuD camps in Punjab are also CIA/RAW creation. Can ISI/army clean up these camps and bring Hafiz Saeed in to justice. I am sure LeT, JuD are supported by CIA/RAW.

Posted by Robin | Report as abusive
 

ISI acts on the interests of Pakistan…the ISI works in the interests of Pakistan.
-Posted by Mohammad Anjum

So if it’s in the interests of Pakistan to blow up an ISI building and sacrifice 20 Pakistanis, to get the US be more sympathetic, apply less pressure, and give more aid, would the ISI do it?

After all, like you said they have to work for Pakistan’s interests first. Seems to me, Pakistan’s getting a lot of mileage from this attack. Hence, this attack is serving Pakistan’s interests. So then, do you agree that since the attack is serving Pakistan’s interests and the ISI works for Pakistan’s interests, that it’s possible the ISI did it?

Posted by Keith | Report as abusive
 

I’d recommend the following link to everyone, which is very rational and open minded. Pakistanis like Anjum should read this and change their mindset.

http://blog.dawn.com/2009/11/14/the-conv enient-curtain-of-myth/comment-page-1/#c omment-32733

 

Mr. Keith you write: “Conspiracy theories flow both ways. How else do you explain an attack at 0640 when nobody was at work?”

May be you should ask your friends at the CIA.

Most activities of the intelligence agencies are clandestine and one can only guess what could have been done by them. So they look like conspiracy theories.
CIA has the historic reputation of helping stage military coups, running secret wars, torture cells, making deals with drug lords to smuggle arms, assassinate people etc for American interests. They can even mislead their leaders into waging wars. George Bush sent his troops into Iraq based on CIA reports about WMDs.

All I am saying, and I have been saying all along is that ISI is no Red Cross. And so is the case with the CIA, Mossad, RAW, KGB or any other secret service across the globe. They have their own agenda and plans of operations which are not visible sometimes even to their own governments. I can only talk from Pakistan’s stand point. I know what spy agencies do. The current events in Pakistan look more like the CIA/RAW/Mossad collaboration. The TTP does look like being controlled by these agencies. And it is for a purpose.

 

Pakistan pointing their finger at someone else for their own shortcomings? What a surprise?

Maybe other nations would take Pakistan more serious if it didn’t go around the world with a begging cup asking for money all the time.

Posted by Salas | Report as abusive
 

CIA, Mossad, RAW, KGB
-posted by Mohammad Anjum

The list keeps growing. Now we add agencies that don’t even exist anymore. KGB? Really?

Posted by Keith | Report as abusive
 

Mr. Keith you write: “The list keeps growing. Now we add agencies that don’t even exist anymore. KGB? Really?”

Well, I was only mentioning the erstwhile KGB. We all know that it does not exist anymore. But when it existed, it was the CIA’s twin on the other side. KGB was dreaded everywhere. But somehow CIA was not, though both were equally sinister. And it was the CIA that trained the ISI during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. So do not blame the ISI. Blame the CIA for all ills.

 

Mohammad Anjum said (numbering mine):
“[...]
(1) If you believe in the idea that the ISI blew its own offices up in order to win sympathy, then you must be able to believe the idea that the Mossad and the CIA staged the 9/11 attacks through their Arab agents staying at Germany. That might have helped the US return to this region. War on terrorism is actually a war for Central Asian Oil pipe line.
(2) Someone asked why the US is still sympathetic to Pakistan. That is because Pakistan is sitting directly in the path of that oil pipe line. That is why it confined its attacks to Afghanistan.
(3) Israel is definitely concerned about our nukes. That is another reason why the US is sitting in Afghanistan, creating the chaos inside Pakistan. At some point they will use the excuse of extremism to take our nukes out. ISI building attack was staged to show that our nuclear installations are not safe either.
(4) They are trying to weaken our military by engaging it in wars with our own brethren.
[...]
(5) If they wanted Bin Laden, they would have taken him out long ago. But they are beating around the bush for some reason for the past 8 years.
[...]”

Arguing from a position of pure logic, the man has some points. None of us really knows what machinations governments and secret service agencies are up to, so one person’s conspiracy theory is as good as another’s.

While I cannot really comment on how true these are, I must say Mohammad Anjum has taken the time to articulate them quite well. It beats some of the incoherent rants I’ve read here on occasion.

If anyone has read George Friedman’s “The Next Hundred Years (A Forecast for the 21st Century)”, it is an extremely unsentimental analysis of what countries will likely do over the coming century. Many statements that would normally be dismissed as conspiracy theories have been backed up by detailed reasoning.

I guess all I can say is, I certainly hope all this is not true. Even if they are, Pakistanis can make things easier for themselves by being cooperative with other countries instead of adopting a war mindset. More powerful countries may then be incentivised to trade with Pakistan rather than manipulate them into giving up their resources, don’t you think?

Regards,
Ganesh

Posted by Ganesh Prasad | Report as abusive
 

Ganesh. What recks Anjum’s thesis is the inconvenient truth that those undertaking the attacks are Pakistanis. While I don’t accept his argument, let’s say it was true and outsiders were running this mess, does that give the Pakistanis an excuse not to fight the militants (guys like Anjum want peace deals with the Talibs)? What does it say about Pakistan that its citizens are so easily bought off? And what does it say about the ISI which so easily lost control of these groups? If its true that outsiders can meddle so easily, what does it say about the state of Pakistan’s unity and cohesion? I’d be seriously worried about imminent collapse, if Anjum’s thesis is correct. Thankfully, I don’t think he’s right.

Posted by Keith | Report as abusive
 

@Anjum,

CIA/RAW/Mosaid were not involved in the suicide attack on your building at 0640.

That early in the morning, there is almost no one there. If CIA or some other agency was going to do it, they would have gone for maximum body count and waiting until the building was full.

All this suggests that the ISI may have did this to themselves, just to play the victims or throw a smokescreen and divert scrutiny unto themselves.

Does my conspiracy sound ludicrous to any Pak bloggers here? Well, during Mumbai, many bloggers like Ali, Umair and some others strongly suggested that India did Mumbai to themselves.

It seems victimhood is a one way street. When the States or India suffers a 911 or a Mumbai, it is always the CIA, MOSSAID or RAW that supposedly commits these acts to “malign Pakistan or muslims”, but when Pakistan gets a terror attack, why can’t we, as Indians or westerners say that the ISI did it to Pakistani’s? Perhaps even rogue elements of the ISI? That seems much more plausible than the CIA doing it. The CIA/USA is giving billions USD to Pakistan to stablize it and on the other end trying to hurt the ISI?

Give me a break dear Pak friends and quit being dismissive about the Taliban Militant cancer tearing through your country, while you sit impotently, idle with fear and stew in static complacency to maintain the status quo.

Posted by GW | Report as abusive
 

We are in a difficult time. We know that. But we will emerge victors. We will clear all the RAW/Mossad/CIA agents from our region. We will hold our ground until the Americans tire and leave. Then we will recover. That must send shivers down the spines of some people.
-Posted by Mohammad Anjum

You are in difficult times and you will remain in difficult times. China is not going to come running to your rescue.

Where is your proof of RAW/Mossad/CIA agents in your region?

You are holding no ground because every week ther are fresh attacks from the Taliban you created (AND THAT IS A FACT).

How are you going to recover? Is Uncle Saudi going to open his wallet to give you aid?

Pakistan is already on a lifeline of IMF and US aid.

Everything you type is baseless and a pathetic attempt to appear tough in the face of your own problems.

Posted by bulletfish | Report as abusive
 

@keith,
let us try to obtain the list of people who are on cia payroll? If you cannot wait the time when the info will no longer be classified ,it can be obtained at any time from the retired cia agents. There are quite a few to give you this info. Or perhaps just listen carefully to the presenters and the personalities they interview and you would be able to rwealise the people who are willingly or unwillingly on the payroll of CIA. Instead of calling people racists that you do not know or talaban the terrorists (even hillary clinton says that there are good talabans and there are bad talabans) why do’nt you stop the use of obscene language which George W introduced in the world and get a clearer and more civilised view of the world which is far away from your cold and very much isolated land. You do not always have to think loudly and write without any deliberation. Your sentence “we spell his name the way he spells it” explains everything. Have a nice day.

Posted by rex minor | Report as abusive
 

Rex Minor,

It’s not Dubya language to call a spade a spade. If someone wants to use language that hints at their racial superiority or suggests that the value of my opinion should be based on my race, religion, nationality, I will call them out for the racism they are exhibiting. Do you think I should value what you say based on where you are from, your skin colour or which religious building you pray in?

Anyway, do feel free to defend them if that’s your thing.

Posted by Keith | Report as abusive
 

keith,
It is important for me to know the background of the people,if at all it is possible, simply to understand them. This is in no way intended to evaluate their statements. For me chromosols do give a certain indication but this will not prejudice my opinion of the person. Every one of us has a different upbringing, culture, family traditions etc. etc.And I am sure if you were to know my background you would not look at the hints to label me. In fact I already see you as a straight forward guy who because of his background appears to be very jumpy in reaching a conclusion. I wish that we exchange views on the subject and learn during the process but not throw labels at each other. Thank you.

Posted by rex minor | Report as abusive
 

(1) The numbers thrown around by Pakistanis of 500,000 Indian troops in Kashmir are very misleading. Kashmir borders both Pakistan and China with borders disputed. Most of the Army is deployed to defend the borders, not fight the Jehadis. As the Kargil War in 1999 illustrated, even these 500K soldiers are not enough to prevent a war.

(2) The modus operandi of the Indian Army in Kashmir is very different from the Pakistani Army. The Indian Army goes out of the way to minimize civilian casualties. Gunbattles with the Jehadis often last multiple days, as the Army tries to wear them out. Often these leads to officer casualties. The Indian Army does not use armor, artillery or air-power in Kashmir. OTOH, the Pakistani Forces have used F-16s, artillery, and helicopter gunships to fight their own people. There are numerous stories of massive civilian casualties in these attacks. Often the relatives of suspected Taleban sympathizers are murdered and their houses blown up to send a message. As a result there have been hundreds of thousands of civilians who fled the battle-zone (known as Internally Displaced People).
See this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GErBdwhj Z4

Unfortunately these gross human rights violations by the Pakistani Army are not talked about by the Pakistani or the Western Press because it is supposedly for a good cause. The same group would not spare any opportunity to malign the Indian Armed Forces while not shedding any tears for the Kashmiri Pundits who have been ethnically cleansed from their own homes.

Posted by Victor | Report as abusive
 

In fact I already see you as a straight forward guy who because of his background appears to be very jumpy in reaching a conclusion.
- Posted by rex minor

I am generally a nice guy. But I don’t suffer racists very easily.

I see no need to bring my background into this. That you say it is relevant is worrisome. How would you evaluate my comment is I was white? And what you think of my comments if I was black? Would your opinion be different if I was Hindu or if I was Muslim?

If you want to understand me, read my comments. They are straightforward enough. Where I am from, the colour of my skin or which god I pray to is not relevant on an internet forum. I am not out to date your sister. We are merely discussing politics here.

Posted by Keith | Report as abusive
 

Really great blog and here lot of information about our country, thanks for information.

 

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