Comments on: India and Pakistan: the missing piece in the Afghan jigsaw http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2009/11/26/india-and-pakistan-the-missing-piece-in-the-afghan-jigsaw/ Perspectives on Pakistan Thu, 01 Oct 2015 19:31:05 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=4.2.5 By: YLH http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2009/11/26/india-and-pakistan-the-missing-piece-in-the-afghan-jigsaw/comment-page-4/#comment-28067 Mon, 15 Mar 2010 10:17:40 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=4273#comment-28067 Two comments here… First of all Jinnah was only as authoritarian or undemocratic as Nehru. The accusation against Jinnah is that he advised the governor to dissolve the Khan ministry…. but Nehru retained section 93 which allowed for the dissolution of the entire state assembly- a power Nehru used on atleast two if not more occasions. Nehru’s contribution to democracy in India was vital… and it was primarily because he ruled like an autocrat. Jinnah- himself a benign dictator- was vital to democracy in that sense … but we lost him. There is absolutely no question that Pakistan would have emerged as a working democracy had Jinnah lived.

Secondly I’ll request people like GW to stop insulting Pakistanis by telling us that need a Gandhi… we don’t … nor was Gandhi exactly the pious saint teresa he is made out in that horribly inaccurate piece of fiction “Gandhi the Movie” … I for one want a secular democratic and tolerant Pakistan…

I don’t understand why Gandhi is always hoisted on everything. I mean you like the guy … fine… make statues… but why always continue to hoist him on us. As for Ghaffar Khan… his historical role in aid of faqir of Ipi who revolted in the name of Islam against Pakistan should be an eye-opener.

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By: G-W http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2009/11/26/india-and-pakistan-the-missing-piece-in-the-afghan-jigsaw/comment-page-4/#comment-26958 Tue, 08 Dec 2009 03:38:17 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=4273#comment-26958 Mr. Anjum,

Democracy can happen in Pakistan, but peoples hearts and core values need to find room for it. In a stroke of the brush, most Pakistani’s seem to casually dismiss democracy as a western affliction of some sort, that is completely the opposite of Islam.

In many ways, disagree if you will, the political steadfastness of Islam in Pakistan as a tool of national unity is actually destroying it like a cancer and will disintegrate Pakistan. Can you imagine that? That which was a tool for the formation of Pakistani formation and unity is the same undertow force that is tearing it apart and when you break things down to the most fundamental level, you cannot deny what I am saying. Most people do not want to live in a mental drone like fashion, blindly praying and accepting all that is fed to them, but some religious leaders, or army types. This doctrine is failing.

There fore, a non-religious awakening must happen in Pakistan to save it. I am not saying that Pakistani’s abandon their love of their faith, I am just saying that what worked at one point in time is not going to work today. It is most Pakistani’s love of Islam, which is justified, but it is also enabling love of fellow muslims to cloud objective judgement and not do anything about the Taliban, speak against them or challenge them or other firebrand clerics, or simply not seeing these type of backwards people as a threat to a true functioning civilized society, where people can become critical thinkers, embrace Islam and still embrace modern thinking to support a democratic governance.

Pakistani’s need a non-religious construct, something outside of religion, an identity of their own, outside of the context of India and this has to make them feel impassioned about their country to the point that they will challenge head-on, those who impose tyranny, propaganda and militantism. My point basically is, is that Islamic identity alone is not enough as a national tool for unity, there must be something else to make Pakistani’s want to think for themselves and use their own faculties to make decisions, rather than embrace a horde mentality, without questioning anybody.

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By: RajeevK http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2009/11/26/india-and-pakistan-the-missing-piece-in-the-afghan-jigsaw/comment-page-4/#comment-26949 Mon, 07 Dec 2009 15:05:49 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=4273#comment-26949 @Pakistan needs a peaceful, articulate, educated Gandhian like Islamic leader who can wield power peacefully, while still embracing the best of Islam and embracing the best of secular, plural and democratic values. Unfortunately Pakistan has not produced such an individual and if an when it does, there cannot be any tolerance for those that embrace backwardness like, lashing women, banning music and forcing people to wear a beard, burqua and salwar kameez. For such a Gandhian leader to rise and wield influence, first the people of Pakistan need to stand against the retrograde madrasa culture, double dealing Pak Army and embrace open mindedness.”
-posted by G-W

G-W: There has at least been one example of a Gandhian Leader in Pakistan. Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan, also known as Frontier Gandhi, who used non-violence as weapon to fight for Pakthunistan. You know that he was imprisoned for 15yrs (not not under luxury of house arrest that the terrorists are given) IN Khan’s own words, he was treated worse than what the Bristish treated him during Indian freedom struggle. This man did exactly the opposite of what Taliban are doing now in the same region. That guy was Pakistan’s enemy and Taliban is Pakistan’s friends. One can argue that Khan fought against Pakistan, not for, but one can also argue that as ruling power feel its throne shaken, it will eliminate any opposition and it is easier to eliminate a non-violent one if people are not in picture. The mix of terrorists with ruling power is a poison that has become important factor now, not during Khan’s days.

That place is barren for a non-violent individual to emerge. I will count more on mass movement.

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By: DaraIndia http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2009/11/26/india-and-pakistan-the-missing-piece-in-the-afghan-jigsaw/comment-page-4/#comment-26945 Mon, 07 Dec 2009 06:51:50 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=4273#comment-26945 Goodman,

Of course you can think what you like. But, could you please tell us why you think India is being unjust about Kashmir? I also think that your facts come very close to being fantasy:
1. “There are more Indian soldiers in
Kashmir than its population.”
You are wrong by many millions. Where did you get this ‘fact’ from. The population is around 8 million. The total size of the Indian Army, including those deployed along its entire borders and in cantonments is about 1.4 million. With statements such as this it is difficult to take anything you say seriously.

2.”On the other hand India is
not giving fair share of its economic gains to its largest minority i,e muslims .”
Could you please elaborate. Does it allocate resources based on religion? If so what is the allocation?

3. “All the aces are in India’s hand.”
In whose hands are all the terorists and would you consider them, the 2 of clubs?

4. “Congress did not grasp the oppertunity of giving some concessions to muslims to remove their fears and preferred to create Pakistan.”

After reading this I realised just how wrong your information and perception of the whole problem really is. I don’t think one needs to continue.

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By: goodmansenior http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2009/11/26/india-and-pakistan-the-missing-piece-in-the-afghan-jigsaw/comment-page-4/#comment-26932 Sun, 06 Dec 2009 10:09:30 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=4273#comment-26932 To me it appears that India is being unjust to keep the
predominetly muslim state of Kashmir under her control
through sheer force . There are more Indian soldiers in
Kashmir than its population. On the other hand India is
not giving fair share of its economic gains to its largest minority i,e muslims . All the aces are in India’s hand.All it needs is to be large hearted and
treat muslims fairly. I am sure in case of referandum Kashmiris will vote for India , if they are treated humanely and equal oppertunitis are given to them. Congress did not grasp the oppertunity of giving some concessions to muslims to remove their fears and preferred to create Pakistan. There is no cause of any
dispute between India and Pakistan which would not be
sorted out amicably but it needs give and take. I vividly
recall Madam Indra Gandhi and Mr Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto
( both late ) successfully settled very sensitive issue of return of Pakistani POWS back in 1972 . I foresee a federation of India and Pakistan if both countries have a will to forge genuine friendly and neighborly relations.

goodmansenior

a

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By: G-W http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2009/11/26/india-and-pakistan-the-missing-piece-in-the-afghan-jigsaw/comment-page-4/#comment-26929 Sun, 06 Dec 2009 04:59:09 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=4273#comment-26929 @Anjum,

Pakistan needs a peaceful, articulate, educated Gandhian like Islamic leader who can wield power peacefully, while still embracing the best of Islam and embracing the best of secular, plural and democratic values. Unfortunately Pakistan has not produced such an individual and if an when it does, there cannot be any tolerance for those that embrace backwardness like, lashing women, banning music and forcing people to wear a beard, burqua and salwar kameez. For such a Gandhian leader to rise and wield influence, first the people of Pakistan need to stand against the retrograde madrasa culture, double dealing Pak Army and embrace open mindedness. In short, the people of Pakistan need a civil rights movement, within the context of modernizing the psyche and national philosophy of Pakistan. These basic things are needed so that potential great leaders will not have shackles, but some level of courate that will help them to become a lighting rod of awakened resistance against all of Pakistan’s ills. Secondly, perhaps it is time for the British to return and help better administer and manage Pakistan from within, to strengthen its democratic institutions, almost like a mentorship in democracy.

I cannot see the Pak Army being an impediment to true progress towards democracy, if the international community tables a motion, the Pak Army will have to be partners in success of democracy. Militantism cannot have home in Pakistan, but does so, because of rogue/non-rogue Army support in one manner or another.

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By: G-W http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2009/11/26/india-and-pakistan-the-missing-piece-in-the-afghan-jigsaw/comment-page-4/#comment-26928 Sun, 06 Dec 2009 04:43:44 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=4273#comment-26928 Myra,

Another piece in the missing jigsaw puzzle is the haphazard borderlines drawn by Sir Durand, where he dismembered the Pashtun Nation and where the British also dismembered India in a haphazard way.

To deal with all this terrorism, a new UN resolution should be tabled, with he Pashtun provinces in Pakistan being re-unified with Afghanistan and the Pakistan Kashmir being re-united with India. This way, India can police its side better and the U.S. and NATO allies can hunt AQ and Taliban MIlitants without the red-tape.

It appears Pakistan is incapable of dealing with militants. Although it may ruffle Pak sensibilities, this maybe one way to stabilize Pakistan in the long run, by rectifying Pakistan’s borders. I think many will agree that these two areas are a huge financial drain and have caused much hardship on Pakistan. Still this requires serious deliberation.

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By: DaraIndia http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2009/11/26/india-and-pakistan-the-missing-piece-in-the-afghan-jigsaw/comment-page-4/#comment-26918 Sat, 05 Dec 2009 14:11:24 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=4273#comment-26918 M Anjum,

I agree with all you say about an ideal democracy and its flaws in underdeveloped or developing countries. A change in Indian policy was forced upon it by economic conditions. Congress policies caused a decline, but remember it was also the Congress which took the crucial step of changing track and freeing the economy from its socialist shackles. Some say that if India has become relatively stable now it is not because of the government but in spite of it. The entrepreneurs and private enterprise moved and moved well. However, it would not have been possible but for a change in policy.

The reason that happened though was because the political class was allowed to make mistakes and hopefully learn from them, fortunately they did. We may not be an economic powerhouse and have a long way to go in all respects, but we have started moving along the right road.

I could be wrong, but I feel that the politicians in Pakistan were not given this benefit of time, to learn from their mistakes which is the prime reason that democracy hasn’t taken roots there. 60 years in the life of a nation is minuscule and for any system to take root and flourish it needs, as you yourself say, to be nurtured and helped to grow. So does the political class.

As for your contention that an Islamic democracy should emerge, that is an experiment worth trying. Look at Iran, they are an Islamic Republic. Their constitution reflects Islamic ideals, their governments are elected and the system is progressing. I am sure there are those who will point fingers at it, because of equations with that country, but the fact remains there is a democratic process in play in Iran, so why not in Pakistan?

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By: DaraIndia http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2009/11/26/india-and-pakistan-the-missing-piece-in-the-afghan-jigsaw/comment-page-4/#comment-26917 Sat, 05 Dec 2009 14:06:50 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=4273#comment-26917 M Anjum,

I agree with all you say about an ideal democracy and its flaws in underdeveloped or developing countries. A change in Indian policy was forced upon it by economic conditions. Congress policies caused a decline, but remember it was also the Congress which took the crucial step of changing track and freeing the economy from its socialist shackles. Some say that if India has become relatively stable now it is not because of the government but in spite of it. The entrepreneurs and private enterprise moved and moved well. However, it would not have been possible but for a change in policy.

The reason that happened though was because the political class was allowed to make mistakes and learn from them, fortunately they did. We may not be an economic powerhouse and have a long way to go in all respects, but we have started moving along the right road.

I could be wrong, but I feel that the politicians in Pakistan were not given this benefit of time, to learn from their mistakes. This could be the reason that democracy hasn’t taken roots there. 60 years in the life of a nation is minuscule and for any system to take root and flourish it needs, as you yourself say, to be nurtured and helped to grow. So does the political class.

As for your contention that an Islamic democracy should emerge, that is an experiment worth trying. Look at Iran, they are an Islamic Republic. Their constitution reflects Islamic ideals, their governments are elected and the system is progressing. I am sure there are those who will point fingers at it, because of equations with that country, but the fact remains there is a democratic process in play in Iran, so why not in Pakistan?

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By: Keith http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2009/11/26/india-and-pakistan-the-missing-piece-in-the-afghan-jigsaw/comment-page-4/#comment-26898 Thu, 03 Dec 2009 21:33:52 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=4273#comment-26898 Manish,You misunderstood my comments. I was referring to your point that India’s interests in Afghanistan mainly concern energy resources. The thread after all is about India’s role in Afghanistan. I wasn’t referring to the Kashmir dispute or the Indo-Pak conflict.

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