Comments on: Give us bin Laden, Britain tells Pakistan http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2009/11/30/give-us-bin-laden-britain-tells-pakistan/ Perspectives on Pakistan Thu, 01 Oct 2015 19:31:05 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=4.2.5 By: khizar1 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2009/11/30/give-us-bin-laden-britain-tells-pakistan/comment-page-3/#comment-27216 Thu, 31 Dec 2009 21:05:06 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=4294#comment-27216 The only way in the direction of understanding & resolving these interwoven complex world problems is the real education of new generations, and empowering of the young generations as a start. Building of new institutions and replacement of the 30 plus generation with the young generation of 30 minus. This is not easy but not impossible. I believe that within 10 to 20 years, the fruits of empowering young generations will be evident all over the world.
I am working on a project based on my experience of transforming an educational institution of 520 kids from extremist/fundamental sentiments to liberal attitudes. I believe this is a step towards world peace by investing in the coming generations. I expect those they have a desire to help change the world can send me an email at khizar1@gmail.com. I am positive that someone is somewhere that can help change the world, but they just need to be reached and I am trying to reach them. Thanks.

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By: rexminor http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2009/11/30/give-us-bin-laden-britain-tells-pakistan/comment-page-3/#comment-27095 Thu, 17 Dec 2009 22:53:32 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=4294#comment-27095 Are we still debating about India and Pakistan and forgot about Gordon Brown’s worries. Perhaops we should ask Alcapone 2 if his new team has made any progress?

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By: G-W http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2009/11/30/give-us-bin-laden-britain-tells-pakistan/comment-page-3/#comment-27052 Sun, 13 Dec 2009 20:53:59 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=4294#comment-27052 @Keithz

Keith, Pakistan needs an awakening. Pakistani’s generally claim statehood and sovereignty, while they allow and enable China, Saudi Arabia and outside foreign Islamic Militant fighters to operate on their soil to commit terrorism on others.

@AhmedS,

With regards to India taking of Pakistan’s right arm in 1971, yes we did to that, but your Punjabi Mafia Army, for which you will not admit on this blog, gruesomely raped and genocided 3 million Bengalis. Anything India may have done, sure it bruised your national EGO, but India did not do something so unforgiveable as systematic and organized racist mass slaughter of unarmed civilians, with the main target being Hindus.

Any grievances of Kashmir or 1971, are so miniscule compared to the Bengali Genocide. That is why the world is not going to listen anymore about Kashmir or 1971, as Pakistan has no moral ground.

Pakistani’s only saving grace now, is that it must fully and wholeheartedly deliver Pakistani Taliban, Afghan Taliban, AQ and Kashmiri Proxy War assets on a platter, if it wants to have any semblance of integrity or believability as a stable, peaceful nation that is against terrorism.

There simply is no legal or moral human justification for any sort of “strategic depth” terrorists against Afghanistan or India.

Pakistan has this one and only last chance to save it self and turn the page on militant-ism, otherwise the world will converge on Pakistan, militarily and politically and force terms on Pakistan. Pakistan will be trapped and not have any wiggle room.

At the end of the day, India wants a stable and friendly Pakistan, but in its current lackluster show, the Indians an the world are still doubtful as Kashmir proxy terrorists continue to operate against India and Afghan Taliban continue to butcher NATO and U.S. soldiers.

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By: prasadgc http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2009/11/30/give-us-bin-laden-britain-tells-pakistan/comment-page-3/#comment-27039 Sat, 12 Dec 2009 23:47:10 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=4294#comment-27039 kEiThZ said:
> Our governments have gone out of their way to support Pakistan. […] We have provided training to the Pak Army.

I’m reminded of what Indira Gandhi said in the early 80s when the US was supplying arms to Pakistan and justifying it by citing the war against the Soviets in Afghanistan. She said, “We have not heard of guns that fire in only one direction.” The West chose not to listen (as always until very recently) and now those guns are firing in their direction as well. Poetic justice, in a way.

Ganesh

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By: kEiThZ http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2009/11/30/give-us-bin-laden-britain-tells-pakistan/comment-page-2/#comment-27031 Sat, 12 Dec 2009 16:06:02 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=4294#comment-27031 Ahmed,

This is exactly my point. If Pakistani Americans are involved in extremism, how much can the West do? Here you have a community that is well-off, educated, integrated and for the most part accepted by their new homeland. They don’t have anywhere near the issues that British Pakistanis do. Yet, they are getting caught up in extremism.

The CNN article you put up highlighted the role of deradicalizers. What it does not say is the role of CAIR in justifying jihadism and other forms of extremism for years. On one hand they justify violence, then they seem shocked and surprised when some youth actually listen to their message, and then hastily call out the deradicalizers.

We have Pakistani expat groups that justify violence. We have the vast majority of these expat communities that does not speak out against extremism (you worry about Indians not accepting Pakistan, well just think about how worried we are when our Pakistani neighbours stay silent after a subway bombing or inciteful speech from a firebrand cleric). How do you think the British people felt when some British Pakistani said a British Muslim soldier who was killed in combat, deserved his fate? That’s the level of gratitude some of these migrants have for their new homeland.

So the West has two choices in this situation. Crack down on their immigrant communities. Or try and get Pakistan to shut down the safe havens where these extremists flock to. Which do you think is right? Should western governments come down hard on their Pakistani immigrants who harbour extremists? Or should they pressure Pakistan to close down the training camps all over Pakistan. Keep in mind these young Americans weren’t caught in the FATA, they were in Punjab….and that too a settled part of Punjab. Sargodha is hardly the sticks. One of the PAF’s largest installations is next door.

You suggest the world should be more understanding. But shouldn’t that understanding flow both ways? Our governments have gone out of their way to support Pakistan. The US isn’t the only one providing aid. My government here in Canada has encouraged billions in investment in Pakistan (see Barrick Gold in Baluchistan) and has donated tens of millions in aid (a lot for a small country like us). We have provided training to the Pak Army. Our NGOs are active in Pakistan. We take in large numbers of Pakistani migrants. So what more can we do for you?

On the other hand, what do we see from Pakistan? We see a society that tolerates and even justifies the rule of a military kleptocracy (see a few threads where one of your compatriots argued against democracy in Pakistan). We see Pakistanis who justify interfering in Afghanistan because of phantom Indian consulates. Yet, none can yet list a single consulate other than then officially listed 4. We see Pakistanis who feel that violence against civilians is justified in India and Afghanistan and even the West because it somehow suits their interests. Ask them if Indian meddling in Baluchistan is justified and they’ll say no. Ask them if Pakistani meddling in Kashmir is okay and they’ll reply with a resounding, “yes”. What kind of hypocrisy is that?

The world is more than prepared to support Pakistan. It is in nobody’s interest (not even your next door arch-rival) to have Pakistan become another Somalia. But this requires the co-operation of Pakistanis. We don’t need Pakistanis parroting conspiracy theories to excuse their inaction. We don’t need the ISI picking and choosing which terrorists to fight while actively assisting groups that are killing western soldiers in Afghanistan and civilians in India. And we don’t need Pakistanis who justify authoritarian rule because it suits their interests.

The world is ready to help Pakistan, as long as Pakistan is ready to help itself.

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By: prasadgc http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2009/11/30/give-us-bin-laden-britain-tells-pakistan/comment-page-2/#comment-27029 Sat, 12 Dec 2009 14:09:24 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=4294#comment-27029 Ahmed,

Khuidude said:
> The older generation who still harbor love for the united motherland […] will soon be replaced by a younger and drastically more hostile generation.

You said:
> Contrary to the popular myth, I am also not alone nor in a minority in Pakistan. There are people who are less educated who make even more sense than me.

I sincerely hope Khuidude is wrong and you are right. The last thing we need now is a hardening of attitudes. Our problems are entirely one of attitudes. There are really no problems between India and Pakistan that any two other neighbouring countries couldn’t solve in five minutes (think US-Canada or Australia-New Zealand). We remain condemned by our hard feelings. (This goes for you too, Ahmed.)

> Right now we need the world’s understanding, not necessarily sympathy, but understanding, which by the way I don’t see much of either.

I can see what you’re saying, but try and look at things from the other side as well. If you had a neighbour who was rearing pit bulls and training them to attack other people (including yourself), and one of them turned around and bit him badly, would you sympathise with him or think “serves him right”? And if he shot the dog that bit him but refused to put down the other vicious ones because he still hoped to set them against his neighbours, how much sympathy would you have for him?

There are still reports that the Pakistani military establishment doesn’t want to turn on all the terrorists operating in the country, only against some of them. They still seem to want to maintain “strategic depth” against India and Afghanistan. Obviously, this prevents Pakistan from being seen as a trusted partner by those outside who are threatened by terrorism. Pakistan cannot expect either sympathy or understanding when its fight against terror is so obviously half-hearted. Pakistan needs to show the world that it is serious about uprooting *all* terrorists, including the anti-India ones. As an Indian, that’s what I would infer from the term “do more”.

> You are quick to condemn and damn all of us in Pakistan […]

Not all, Ahmed. People on this forum and elsewhere have been calling on right-thinking Pakistanis to step up and speak out against things that have gone wrong. For reasons of defensiveness or otherwise, we have never had an instance of a Pakistani coming out and clearly saying, “Our country’s policy of supporting terrorism was wrong and must end” even if many of you internally feel that way. What’s preventing this? You will be pleasantly surprised at how other people will reach across to you if you can empathise with their position.

> […] but forget the sensible people including clerics who oppose the acts of terror.

If there are good people working in this cause, we need to hear more of it. For example, I hadn’t heard of Sarfraz Naeemi, and I suspect most people outside Pakistan haven’t. Part of it may be the fault of the media and its selective reporting, but people like you have a lot of influence too. The world is very eager to see the slightest positive signs from Pakistan, so if people like you can swallow your (natural) defensiveness when challenged on forums like this and respond with positive examples of what’s being done to improve matters, you will quickly get a positive response from others. I would strongly suggest you try this. Don’t be provoked by what you see as “attacks”. If there is a moderate and silent majority as you claim, it would be very good to hear those voices. So far, we have only heard defensiveness. I know it’s hard to respond calmly to hostile comments, but after a few mild responses, the opposition will also soften.

> One such example is the case of the five kids from Washington. Read the news here

I have seen this report earlier. There is an element of “jihadi cool” that has nothing to do with religion, I agree. It’s an unfortunate aspect of the times that the Muslim community has to be extra-careful about its reputation now and must police its own youth more carefully, otherwise news items like this and the Fort Hood shooting go on to reinforce a very negative opinion. Much as we would like to help, the rest of us are helpless bystanders. This is a matter for the Muslim community to handle. As a positive example of what can be done, a large number of Indian Muslims came out strongly in condemnation of the Mumbai attacks and closed ranks with fellow Indians. It did a lot to improve the image of Muslims within India, and the social rifts that had taken place in the aftermath of the Gujarat riots were significantly healed by this gesture.

> on top of that from your compatriots, all we see is gloating and wallowing in Pakistan bashing. This is no way to advance trust, or understanding.

Again, I see where you’re coming from, and again, I would ask you to try and look at this from the other side for a moment. My own reading of the situation is that the Mumbai attack was a turning point. Something snapped in India as a result of this attack. Even Kargil did not have the same impact. The level of goodwill towards Pakistan dropped sharply after Mumbai. Until Mumbai, all terror attacks against India were bombs, and there was always a doubt as to the source. It could have been homegrown terrorism and not a “foreign hand”. Things were never clear-cut, and so people were prepared to give Pakistan the benefit of the doubt. But Mumbai had a definite smoking gun, not just because one of the terrorists was captured alive and he sang, but also because lots of other evidence turned up, such as cell phone transcripts. Official Pakistani involvement became glaringly obvious.

I don’t share in the gloating at Pakistan’s current plight because (as always) it’s the poor and the innocent who are paying the price, but perhaps you can understand why people might feel vindicated. (I would gloat, though, if the terrorist handlers in the ISI got a taste of their own medicine at the hands of LeT and the like.) Looking at it dispassionately, the Pakistani military establishment really overreached itself with the Mumbai attack. They failed to understand that the world climate has changed. Your army has done Pakistan a great disservice by being seen as terrorist supporters in a world that is now strongly anti-terrorist. But there is still hope, as I keep pointing out. The ball is really in Pakistan’s court, though. If the world (including Indians) can see that Pakistan is taking steps to uproot terrorism (not just the anti-Pakistan TTP but also the anti-India LeT and Afghan Taliban), then you will start to see sympathy and understanding from Indians. Until then, wouldn’t you agree that Indians would see a reluctant Pakistani establishment as being essentially still an enemy?

I know the view in Pakistan is very anti-Zardari. I can’t comment on his integrity, but he seems to carry the least amount of anti-India baggage of all the Pakistani leaders I know about. Zardari represents to best opportunity for peace in my eyes, but unfortunately, he seems to be getting sidelined by the army, which is traditionally anti-India. Zardari (correctly) said some time ago that India is not a threat to Pakistan, and that’s something the average Pakistani would do well to understand. The threat only exists in your own eyes. India has bigger fish to fry. Becoming an economic giant is not a zero-sum game, and Pakistan can join in that prosperity if it chooses to. By remaining anti-India, you only isolate yourself from a growing economy, a rising tide that could lift your boats as well. What are your thoughts on that?

> It is encouraging to know that India has a few of you around as well, unless you are an NRI?

Guilty as charged :-). I’ve been an Australian citizen since 2000.

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

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By: AhmedS http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2009/11/30/give-us-bin-laden-britain-tells-pakistan/comment-page-2/#comment-27023 Sat, 12 Dec 2009 05:01:24 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=4294#comment-27023 Ganesh, I had to re-type this again as my earlier comment vanished without posting. Anyway, apologize for the delayed answer.

Just because I can articulate my thought into the English language and quote Rousseau does not necessarily make me enlightened. And if you think I am westernized just because I am talking sense, let me assure you my friend, those two are not mutually inclusive, as the west does not have a monopoly on being sensible :)

Contrary to the popular myth, I am also not alone nor in a minority in Pakistan. There are people who are less educated who make even more sense than me. Likewise, just because there is a minority that is hell bent on corrupting the youth and using it as its weapon to seek concessions from the state does not mean most of us think it is acceptable. These terrorists get all the world’s media attention, but not many people see the steps we are taking to remove this curse from our society. You are quick to condemn and damn all of us in Pakistan but forget the sensible people including clerics who oppose the acts of terror. You don’t mention many good people including Sarfraz Naeemi, the cleric who was killed in a terror attack himself opposing these terrorists.

Since we are on the subject, it is not just the sick clerics who radicalize these youth, there are other factors that influence this equation of terror. And it is not just limited to poor and downtrodden who see no other option. One such example is the case of the five kids from Washington. Read the news here: http://tinyurl.com/yem7cax

Right now we need the world’s understanding, not necessarily sympathy, but understanding, which by the way I don’t see much of either. Pakistan will come out of this stronger, as we would have sorted out a few things. Meanwhile, no need to state the obvious, as we already know this monster is of our making, not solely ours but we are partly responsible for it. However, now we are dealing with it alone and without help from the outside. Instead, we are constantly being pressured with the western mantra of ‘do more’ as if we are already not doing enough, and on top of that from your compatriots, all we see is gloating and wallowing in Pakistan bashing. This is no way to advance trust, or understanding.

We are just now beginning to say farewell to Zia’s style of Jihad which has led us to the path of mistakes and foolishness. I think time is ripe for us to re-think and re-invent the nation. And I don’t know if it was even possible to learn these lessons before the recent events and the environment of confusion we are going through these days. No external pressure or entity can teach us nor can it educate us as to what is in our best interest. I have great hopes for my country in this time of great discontent.

I really appreciate your forthright observations. It is encouraging to know that India has a few of you around as well, unless you are an NRI?

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By: khuidude http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2009/11/30/give-us-bin-laden-britain-tells-pakistan/comment-page-2/#comment-27020 Sat, 12 Dec 2009 01:03:24 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=4294#comment-27020 @RajeevK

Thanks for that link. It was a real eye-opener. Basically puts a lot of things into perspective and helps you understand the root cause of all of Pakistan’s problems. Basically as an Indian, I finally realized how thorough the brainwash job has been and why any Pakistani under the age of 29 has such a deep-seated hatred of Indians and Hindus in general.

As a student in a culturally diverse University in the US, we have often noticed this hatred but could never quite figure it out. As Indians who have faced the brunt of Pak sponsored terrorism, we do have a strong resentment towards Pakistanis. But, when it comes down to dealing with them, we always show sympathy because after all our bonds go far deeper and language is a great uniting factor. Alas, we always noted that any kind of attempt at friendship is always strained at best and the deep-seated hatred is always quite apparent. For reasons of camaraderie, politics was always left off the table.

On the other hand, once when I was flying from Colombo to Mumbai after vacationing there with my family, it so happened that Mumbai was a stopover on its way to Karachi. To say the least we were apprehensive initially, but the warmth and friendship we felt on that flight was par none. Needless to say all the Pakistanis on the flight were older gentlemen and ladies who belonged to a different era. They all had either lived in India at some point or still had family there. Everyone was extremely friendly were actually excited when we flew in over Mumbai, trying to catch some sights and sounds of a city they had all only heard of. Their sorrow about the sordid state of affairs in their country was clearly apparent.

Its a strange sad anomaly that we have to deal with. The older generation who still harbor love for the united motherland and are filled with horror over the violence that children of the same soil have inflicted upon each other will soon be replaced by a younger and drastically more hostile generation. Makes me question whether peace is just another pipe dream far from the ground realities we face. In the words of Megadeath – “Peace sells, but who’s buying?”

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By: G-W http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2009/11/30/give-us-bin-laden-britain-tells-pakistan/comment-page-2/#comment-27016 Fri, 11 Dec 2009 15:47:41 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=4294#comment-27016 @Keith,

It seems that the Pak Army is not willing to give up its “strategic depth” doctrine against India and Afghanistan. This strategic depth doctrine is actually a thinly veiled word for state sponsored terrorism, how can we view it any other way when the Afghan Taliban and their cadre operate from within Pakistan and the Kashmiri proxy army jihadi’s, almost 60 of them cross into India every month, as Indian agencies catch them. The Afghan Taliban terrorists are currently butchering NATO and U.S. soldiers.

How can Pakistan claim to call itself an ally against terrorism, while supporting and enabling Afghan Taliban terrorists and Kashmiri proxy armies. What moral ground is left for the Pak Army to want discussion on Kashmir, while the enable and allow terrorists to operate on their soil? I think NONE.

I am surprised this cat and mouse game with Obama has carried on for so long, if there was a Republican President in office today, I guarantee you, Afghanistan would have been closer to being resolved and the U.S. and NATO would be sitting inside of Pakistan, surgically taking apart the terrorist infrastructure there with our without permission.

The time has come to fix Pakistan and force them to own up for all of their irresponsible behavior towards Afghanistan, India and especially against the intelligence and psyche of average Pakistani’s.

As an Indian immigrant myself, I do not want to see Pakistan collapse or deteriorate, that is not good for the world, or India, but we do want to see a responsible, transparent military that is responsible to the civilian government and a country that is taking wholehearted, real steps to ride itself of Afghan Taliban, Pakistani Taliban and all terrorists against India. Until that happens, Pakistani Army is just playing games and trying to wait things out, until they can resume the low level war against India and re-install the Taliban in Afghanistan, once the U.S. leaves.

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By: G-W http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/2009/11/30/give-us-bin-laden-britain-tells-pakistan/comment-page-2/#comment-27015 Fri, 11 Dec 2009 15:29:37 +0000 http://blogs.reuters.com/pakistan/?p=4294#comment-27015 @Ahmed,

Ahmed, when muslims or Pakistani muslims commit terrorism, western security agencies and immigration agencies have a duty to crack down and a large component of it will involve profiling, but that is not racism.

Ahmed, you cannot deny that in this century, acts of Islamic terrorism are by far the largest type of terrorism on innocent populations, hellbent on forcing their religious and political views on others.

Even though I am an Indian, brown skinned, I have no problem being pulled aside by security at any airport to make sure that there is no security concern, but that is not racism, that is a country being responsible and protecting the rights of its citizens.

On that note, I almost never or very rarely see, the local Masjid or Mosque in any country espousing gratefulness to their host country or protesting Islamic terrorism. Most Pakistani immigrants are quiet and say little to protest home grown youth terrorists or firebrand clerics. In short, the non-muslims are not seeing responsible behavior where Pakistani’s reign-in extremists from their own municipal society and mosques and stop their religious and political venom against host countries. That is a huge problem for us non-muslims, we want to see average Pakistani’s confront and challenge those with extremist views head on and co-operate more fully with police and security and intelligence agencies. That is our right to security, and safety as Pakistani diaspora do little or nothing police their own communities and in turn doing little to maintain a quality public image for themselves. It all starts and ends with the Pak Diaspora communities. Your elders and Imams are too absorbed with religious expansion and sometimes hatred and willfully or ignorantly turning a blind eye to the rot within.

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