Pakistan, India send in their professional diplomats to break the stalemate

February 25, 2010

raobashirThe foreign secretaries of India and Pakistan, meeting in New Delhi to end a diplomatic freeze which followed the November 2008 attack on Mumbai, did what they were expected to do — laid out all the issues which divide the two countries and agreed to “keep in touch”.

Foreign Secretary Nirupama Rao, India’s top diplomat, focused on what India calls “cross-border terrorism”. India also handed three new dossiers of evidence to the Pakistani delegation, including one on Hafez Saeed, the founder of the Lashkar-e-Taiba militant group, who New Delhi accuses of masterminding the Mumbai attack. Pakistan had said it did not have enough evidence to prosecute Saeed.

Pakistan’s Foreign Secretary Salman Bashir said both countries were victims of terrorism but that dialogue should not be held hostage to a single person or single incident. In a news conference after the talks he stressed the need to reach a settlement on Kashmir, to resolve territorial disputes over the Siachen and Sir Creek regions and to improve cooperation over the sharing of Himalayan river waters.

He also raised India’s role in Afghanistan, saying it was using its presence there to provide money and funding to militants to destabilise Pakistan. India denies this.

But despite their widely different views on what should be on the agenda, there was little suggestion of rancour during the talks, which Bashir described as a genuine attempt to bridge differences. Both Rao and Bashir are seasoned diplomats with long experience of the many ups and downs of the relationship between India and Pakistan.

The next step to watch is whether Rao now travels to Islamabad for a further round of talks.  No dates were announced. The prime ministers of the two countries will also have a chance to meet at a regional summit in Bhutan in April.

Progress will be slow. India and Pakistan have yet to agree even on what format their talks should take. India is believed to have some doubts about the usefulness of the composite dialogue – a formal structured process meant to cover all areas of contention — and broken off by New Delhi after the Mumbai attack.  Bashir appealed against discarding the composite dialogue,  which been the foundation for many years of negotiations, complaining that if this were relegated, there would be no starting point for future discussions.

So there will be no early breakthrough, especially not over Kashmir — the issue that has divided the two countries since independence in 1947.

But with events now beginning to move rather rapidly in Afghanistan ahead of the 2011 deadline set by President Barack Obama for starting to draw down U.S. troops, India is under some pressure to regain the initiative there. It invested heavily in development in Afghanistan after the fall of the Pakistan-backed Taliban in 2001 and built close ties with the government of President Hamid Karzai.  It has now found itself caught on the back foot, supporting a weak government in Kabul while much of the talk which followed last month’s London conference on Afghanistan has been on reconciliation with the Taliban.

Pakistan, meanwhile, appears to have gained favour with the United States by working more closely with it, and U.S. officials have presented the arrest of Taliban commander Mullah Abdul Ghani Baradar in Karachi this month as evidence of this new cooperation.

So it’s worth watching closely how India and Pakistan position themselves on Afghanistan — particularly in the light of claims and counter-claims that each country tends to use it as a base for destabilising the other.  And with the 2011 deadline looming, U.S. pressure on the two countries to improve relations may well focus on that shorter-term goal of trying to stabilise Afghanistan rather than the much longer-haul project of nudging them into making progress on Kashmir.

A while back, many analysts argued that the road to peace in Afghanistan ran through Kashmir.  The quickening timeframe for the Afghan war suggests there is no longer the time for such a lengthy detour. Now it runs through Kabul.

(Photo: Foreign Secretaries Nirupama Rao and Salman Bashir/B.Mathur)

37 comments

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[...] Pakistan, India send in their professional diplomats to break the … – Reuters BlogsThe foreign secretaries of India and Pakistan, meeting in New Delhi to end a diplomatic freeze which followed the November 2008 attack on Mumbai, did what they were expected to do â?? laid out all the issues which divide the two countries and agreed …    [read more] [...]

Pakistan’s sudden change of heart regarding the Taliban is not surprising. I do not see any sincere efforts to root out links to terrorism by its establishment. In my opinion, Pakistan is “capturing” all the key Taliban leaders because there is a fear that the Americans can get them otherwise and that will open a can of worms that Pakistan has been desperately trying to hide. Also by denying access to the CIA, the ISI might be coaching the “captured” Taliban commanders on what to reveal and what not to reveal. They must be surprised that the CIA has come that close to pointing out where the elements are hiding. With the surge in Helmand, Taliban is under immense pressure and Pakistan will need to save its “assets”. I don’t think they are winning or gaining anything here. They are working on covering their tracks.

As far this diplomatic talks, I see it as a wasted exercise where each side will blame the other ad-infinitum and things will remain at a stalemate. No one is clear who is in charge in Pakistan. The military controls everything remotely and the government is merely a puppet to keep the Americans happy. Any moves made by both countries towards a solution will be negated by the Pak military establishment. If a solution is found, then the military cannot sustain its grip on power by using the “external threat.” Pakistan is slowly falling into the hands of the proxy elements which have begun to go with their own agenda, independent of their military and the namesake civilan government. Hafeez Saeed is sitting on his bench and asking the Indian defence minister to talk on Kashmir only.

Pakistan openly supports terrorism inside India. But it does not hesitate to point out “India’s engagement in Afghanistan and Balochistan.” Proxy war is real. Pakistan drew the first blood in it. So it makes no sense when they cry about being bled. India should stop being nice to Pakistan and really start covert operations inside Pakistan. That is the only way to keep this rogue nation engaged with itself. Trying civilized methods is mistaken as weakness. Let them taste their own medicine. Take the proxy war into Pakistan. That is the only language they will understand.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

KPSingho1 wrote:
” India should stop being nice to Pakistan and really start covert operations inside Pakistan. That is the only way to keep this rogue nation engaged with itself. ”

-Shows the level of frustration of the idiots, in Afghanisan idiots supported the corrupt narco-criminal regime of Hamid Karzai. Now while Pakistan & US work together to find a solution it is evident idiots are growing frustrated and isolated. Proxy war, my foot! ISI can take it right back into the nerve centre of India’s IT hub and financial districts. No Indian government will be stupid enough to put itself on a self destructive path.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

@ Umair

“Shows the level of frustration of the idiots, in Afghanisan idiots supported the corrupt narco-criminal regime of Hamid Karzai.”

We already saw who real idiots were who supported Taliban when they took power, and i think your ally and best friend the US was not party to that idiocy then.

“Now while Pakistan & US work together to find a solution it is evident idiots are growing frustrated and isolated.”

Solution? The US is trying to get away from AfPak and you guys are the unwanted load. And please, don’t tell me the PA is trying to get a solution. It is laughable. For PA the solution will be again to support the “Good” taliban through talks. Please show the “evidence” that idiots (i think u mean Indians) are growing frustrated and isolated. Remember Friends of Democratic Pakistan? Shows how many friends (donors) left.

“Proxy war, my foot! ISI can take it right back into the nerve center of India’s IT hub and financial districts. No Indian government will be stupid enough to put itself on a self destructive path.”

Fair enough, your rhetoric shows that you support ISI overtures, not a surprise though. And taking the proxy war to the center of India’s nerve centers? It is a path to self destruction, and yes the Indian govt is not that stupid, but my guess is Pakistan’s is. Get over your high stand, even your foreign secretary speaks like you, speaks the mood of majority of your nation. We know who is now on the path to self destruction. Good Luck

Posted by Wooferswitch | Report as abusive

To those who talk about Pakistan’s ability to cause havoc in India, either through the ISI or with their conventional or nuclear weapons (another popular boast), I would only like to say that whatever happens; terror wars, nuclear or conventional war, both countries will hurt. While India will bleed and bleed badly, Pakistan will be toast. Is this what they want? Do they expect that Indians will turn the other cheek and request the Pakistanis to take over because they are more powerful or stronger or better equipped? On all counts Pakistan is trying desperately to play catch up and grow up.

So, more in Pakistan’s interest than anyone else, will they please take a look at other alternatives.

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive

As for the two Foreign Secretaries, I bet they had a good night’s sleep saying “well at least that’s over and done with!”

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive

“Shows the level of frustration of the idiots, in Afghanisan idiots supported the corrupt narco-criminal regime of Hamid Karzai. Now while Pakistan & US work together to find a solution it is evident idiots are growing frustrated and isolated. Proxy war, my foot! ISI can take it right back into the nerve centre of India’s IT hub and financial districts. No Indian government will be stupid enough to put itself on a self destructive path.”

- Posted by Umairpk

Pakistan and US working together ? its US pushing Pakistan to work actually. Killing your people and strategic assets with drones on daily basis while you keep saying Pakistan and US are working “together”.

If India has to start a proxy war she could have started it decades ago. India beat you in open wars and everytime. There has been a serious disconnect between perception of your army and ground reality. Kargil conflict proved that.

India moved further towards its own objective while you are still stuck at Pakistanis are intelligent and Indians are idiots, and one muslim soldier is equivalant to 10 hindus. These idiots have managed to survive your proxy wars and came out strongly every time, on other hand your so called land of pure is considered land of terrorism by all countries, Including the ones who keep your beggar bowl filled. India has simply too much to lose for a beggar, terrorist and failed nation. Nobody murders a person who is going to commit suicide soon.

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/85 38268.stm

‘No extradition’ for Taliban chiefs held in Pakistan

The Afghan Taliban’s top military commander, who was recently detained in Pakistan, is not to be extradited, the Lahore High Court has ruled.

AS EXPECTED

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/85 38268.stm

‘No extradition’ for Taliban chiefs held in Pakistan

What do you expect if he is involved in criminal activates than he shoul dbe tried in Pakistan first. If he proven than will serve the punishment and also of thats the courts decision be it.

We dont pick bones about what your courts do and what they pass. How about trying few of your brothers who tore down babari masjid speak of your democracy even to this day. How many have you caught tried and even built the mosque back I dont think so. That speaks much for the monorities…. all you guys want is akahand bharat!

Gay Hind!!!

Posted by Magic786 | Report as abusive

I hope the three dosiers passed to mr Salman in Delhi are NOT agian in marathi language. Hopefully evidence not literture, well said Mr Salamn dont lecture us go to their house and tell them to their face and proud of you. Dont lecture us who have suffered more than you and tiem to admit that yu are fully involved in Balouchistan via Afghanistan. But idiots will bury their heads in tatti and ignore it as always…

Posted by Magic786 | Report as abusive

Magic, I am impressed by your name calling. Fortunately for you, I have more self respect than you to retaliate in kind. Come back when you grow up kiddo.

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive

Are you? Thats goood if you are impressed…not that I am trying to impress you.

Thats a surprise I never knew you had any self respect. BUt you have to start somewhere dont you? Good for you geting wiser arnt we…come back when you grow up ok if you say so my foot!

Posted by Magic786 | Report as abusive

@Magic786

—–”Umair the funny thing is they are the once who say we dont want to talk, destroy pakistan grab kashmir dont give them water built more dams. They try their 200% best to isolate Paksitan diplomatically and also physically but they know thats a tall order.”

If India wanted to grab Kashmir and destroy pakistan, we could have done it a long time ago. Long ago than you had a chance to shout “WE HAVE NUKES”. Pakistan’s Problem is, being soft on Pakistan is interpreted as weakness of India. ”

——-”But than calls for meeting come from Delhi belly help us beat terrorism and try to lecture the Pakistanis. Just grow up you think over 5,000 innocent pakistanis have died, countless security men have been blown up to pieces.”

India stopped talking after Mumbai and you guys were crying at every forum that India is not talking, When India start talking, you say its lecturing. Clear your mind first, you want to have Kashmir solution with talks or with war, Its Pakistan who is not clear on its part. Tell me What did Kargil achieve and what was the need of it among talks ?

You planted Taliban Govt. in Afghanistan and you gave bases to USA against Taliban after 9/11, so when Taliban kill your citizens and army, what has India to do with it ? But as always you are made to believe that India and USA are behind all your problems. If Zardari did corruption, if you don’t have enough electricity, and your players like afridi started eating Cricket balls because wheat flour is too scare and expensive, india did that too.

———-“India beat you in open wars and everytime” But I dont see you occupying any part of paksitan not even inch of you won all wars and since you belive pakistan should be part of greater india. Look at the facts except bagladesh where it was pakistanis fault (leaders) they did not accpet the elecetion.”

We did not occupy pakistani land because we did not want it. If we had to occupy Pakistan why would we give it on the first place anyways. And what did you do it after getting it. Lost half of it to Bangladesh and gave big chunk of Kashmir to china.

———”Idiots always talking about beggar bowl let me tell you at least pakis get fed end of the night unlike your own country men.”

This is the point, pakis get fed because they beg, and beg loudly and proudly. Our country men chose not to beg in lieu of Drone attacks. Whats wrong in it. If you think begging is “alright” then why do you feel offended when called “beggars” ?

You avoid answering sane questions and start your nonsense words you normally use in your home, this is not your home.

Nobody can argue with a fool like you. You try to make people come low at your level and then beat them with your experience of being fool for so many years.

You WON! now wear your suicide vest and blow yourself up. To me you are no different that a terrorist who thinks he is doing it for 72 virgins of Heaven but instead send to hell (back to Pakistan) for killing innocents.

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive

Punjabi —

I understand your anger, frustration after all Paks took Lahore from you and you wanted Khalistan but did not have the bottle and ended up getting killed blike rats by the single pasli indian forces in one of your most holiest sites. That tells us the bravery of sikhs and you were hunted like jackals on the streets of india when sikhs killed that leader.

You need to understand hindus have always used you and abused you and used you agian and will carry on. Let your dreams of khalistan go up to hell all i care. It was a dream will always be… not long before they start hunting you guys down again.

Now to your point … what point same old rah ra ra. Firstly you are not feeding us are you? I understand you have enough mouths to feed in your own Great india so carry on achieveing that first. About other countries donating what you expect we are fighting there wars and this is just payback for the work we are doing for them. Thats not begging thats hard earned rightfull money paid with blood. So shove your begging calls where sun dont shine…

The reason you guys get so agitated is US keeps giving us dollars and weapons. You cry like babies why this is given to Pak why that knowing too well we will blow erm on idiots arses if they ever dared to cross the border. Just live with it that US/Pak go long way back when you guys were on the side of Communist Russia. But as clever as khatris are changed sides so quicklly..

Word of avdised why are you obsessed with Pak? Always reading this site and not letting go any chnace to defame pakistan. Not doing a good job are you… 5 of u 1 pro-pak and still unable to get your point across. No wonder you are labelled as Gay hind!!

About sucide west I am happy with my life I dont need to go down that route but if i did dont worry il be hugging you Gay hind!!

Posted by Magic786 | Report as abusive

“We did not occupy pakistani land because we did not want it. If we had to occupy Pakistan why would we give it on the first place anyways.”

You BIG liar you indian akand leaders tried there best… we got our homeland with sacrifices muslims made and the Jinnah fought on every forum to convince British how you khatris want great hindustan without a respect fro the monorties. No guarntee so the British granted it not you or your so called Nehrus my backside you lot gave. If you want to give just get your smelly black bums out of our kashmir before we make you!!!

Posted by Magic786 | Report as abusive

You lot tried your best but just like a fox “grapes are sour” knowing that you will get as good as you give maybe even harder. Now you are saying that so get a life mate and if you think you are so good why not ever try to attacj one of these camps in AJK. I dare you your anthony will go hiding in bunkers knowing what the Paks will unleash so move gay hind!

Posted by Magic786 | Report as abusive

Reuters Moderators,

Please take notice of the offensive & derogatory language, constantly being used on this blog & take appropriate action. This is a forum for civil discussions by mature individuals & not for childish rhetoric & name-calling.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Mortal pleading to Reuters moderators:
“Please take notice of the offensive & derogatory language, constantly being used on this blog & take appropriate action. This is a forum for civil discussions by mature individuals & not for childish rhetoric & name-calling.”

-Dear, you are so annoyed with a little India bashing, on this forum all you idiots call Pakistan is a so-called rogue and failed state, Pakistan falling apart, begging bowls. My foot! Pakistan is a Major- Non NATO Ally and fighting a war, and gets CSF(Coalition support funds). Many of our officers and men have been martyred in this war, we lost the rights to host the world cup cricket, sports and cultural events were bombed in Pakistan, hotels and cities were bombed. But the Army moved in to restore order and push back foreign supported terrorists, Pakistan lost billions of dollars worth of investment, still the economy manages to get along. Pakistan was provided some of the much needed weapons to bolster its amred forces and paid meagre coalition support funds, but no one can repay for the lives of the soldiers and civilians who were martyred. That is why our foreign secretary told right under Indian’s noses we do not want to hear any lectures on terrorism.
Now you must accept that everyone is entitled to freedom of speech and can let his or her opinion known regarding the topic at hand. Next time you must know Pakistan is a democratic progressive muslim nation, with a strategic location in South Asia and facing its unique challenges like any other country with resilience. Proud to be a Pakistani! If you have any problem do not come back to this blog and complain about derogatory language. You expect a one way ride? you call names and no one can talk back? Coercive diplomacy being exhausted, India is merely resorting to dialogue to buy more time. While all the issues, water, Kashmir, terrorism, Siachin, linger around.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

I do not know why India is being nice to Pakistan whose citizens and government establishments are openly venting their dislike, displeasure, hatred etc towards India. India should simply cut all the diplomatic relations with Pakistan and be done with it. There will be no issue of talks and discussions about those talks. India does not need Pakistan. If Pakistanis do not like India, well that’s too bad. They can do whatever they like, but India, for another decade or so, should shut the doors on them, close the missions in Pakistan and kick out all Pakistani diplomats out. Diplomacy so far has not yielded anything and nothing has changed. They have gone from bad to worse. We need to do nothing. Let them deal with their own itch and it does not matter to us. We have handled their terrorists for more than two decades and we can bleed them out of existence as it is a costly affair to sustain proxy wars. We can pressure the Americans to attach conditions to international aid so that they are curtailed from their ambitious and destructive projects. That should be adequate.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE61 P1AI20100226

Doesn’t really take a rocket scientist to figure out what happened here. Talks make no progress, ISI decides to force it. LOL @ Bleeding with a thousand cuts. Keep it going, the dagger has already started to turn around. India has infinite patience. We are too lenient to attack, and too paranoid of our fanatic misguided brothers who are only itching to prove that their nukes work. The trigger to WW3, kind of is in India’s hands. Decimate PA once more and it only takes one radical fanatic to push the N-Button. In hours the entire planet burns. In a twisted way, maybe thats better. The few left will hopefully know better and realize the root of all sorrow and evil on the planet is religion and our religious leaders. The real solution to our problems is eradication of all religions. But it is so intrinsically linked to mankind and our innate fears of the unknown (death), that it will take near annihilation of our species for us to realize the follies of our past. Maybe this is what the 2012 doomsday thing is after all.

Posted by khuidude | Report as abusive

I back Umairpk’s comments 100%.In case you guys do not know, the name of this blog is “Pakistan now or never”. In order for us to have a constructive and civilised dialogue, we must act civilised. It’s very hard for a lot of people, me included, to have useful dialog or post reasoable comments when derogatory and offensive remarks are being used. I admit over the years after reading these blogs I have become very biased against India and now I am questioning if India is world’s largest Democracy or Hypocrisy. Is that what you want?

Posted by babag | Report as abusive

@ Umair: “you are so annoyed with a little India bashing, on this forum all you idiots call Pakistan is a so-called rogue and failed state, Pakistan falling apart, begging bowls”

India bashing? really? If you think that childish jabber devoid of civility and juvenile name calling is India bashing then you’re less mature than I give you credit for. Nobody really cares or loses sleep over baseless, fallacious & unsubstantiated rhetoric but at least do it with some decency & maturity. And that applies to anyone, whether Indian, Pakistani or other.
The difference is that when Indians or others say that Pakistan is a Failed state, it’s because the ‘Failed State Index’ says so, when Pakistan is called a rogue, imploding nation, it’s because numerous reputable sources from the world media say so, when Pakistan is called a nation with a begging bowl, it’s because it is a fact that Pakistani leaders openly ask for money around the world.
But when you Pakistanis talk about the countless murders & rapes being conducted by the Indian army in J&K, it’s only source is the Pakistani media & none other, when you talk about the poor treatment of Indian minorities, it’s source is only the Pakistani media & when you guys talk about India’s hand in the insurgencies in Baluchistan & FATA/NWFP, it’s source is also, only the Pakistani media & none other. Why, is that so, Umair?

@ “Now you must accept that everyone is entitled to freedom of speech and can let his or her opinion known regarding the topic at hand.”

Nobody is denying freedom of speech to anyone. No matter how ridiculous, outrageous, wrong or stupid someone’s comments are, I have absolutely no problem with it as long as they don’t refer to others as ‘stupid’, ‘idiot’ etc & there’s no juvenile name-calling. Maybe some people are used to such conduct in their homes or their everyday lives but this is certainly not a platform for such language. I’m sure Reuters staff agrees with me on that.

@ “Next time you must know Pakistan is a democratic progressive muslim nation, with a strategic location in South Asia and facing its unique challenges like any other country with resilience. Proud to be a Pakistani!”

Whatever makes you sleep better at night, buddy. LMAO! I’ll just leave that argument for another day.

@ “If you have any problem do not come back to this blog and complain about derogatory language.”

Oh, I’ll be here, don’t worry. You wish won’t come true anytime soon.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

@umair, magic,

You just brought shame to Pakistani’s with your basharam and babe-coof behavior.

Complete besharafs.

Duck my shoes are coming at you.

Pakistan now or never?…..NEVER

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

@Magic786

“I understand your anger, frustration after all Paks took Lahore from you and you wanted Khalistan but did not have the bottle and ended up getting killed blike rats by the single pasli indian forces in one of your most holiest sites.”

Who told you that I am a Sikh, being Punjabi does not means Sikh, just like being Indian does not mean Hindu. May be this is too big to understand for your Micro Brain.

“You need to understand hindus have always used you”

What did Pakistan do with Sikhs ? What are Khalistani terrorists doing in Pakistan ?

——–”About other countries donating what you expect we are fighting there wars and this is just payback for the work we are doing for them. Thats not begging thats hard earned rightfull money paid with blood. So shove your begging calls where sun dont shine…”

Rightfull Payback is not asked to be paid 700 Times, It does not comes with conditions of Kerry Lugar bill. Your President travelled to every country for this “DONATION”.

Friends of Pakistan summit have Turkey, Japan and UAE, why services in Blood you have rendered to Japan and Turkey, will you elaborate for some ‘idiots’ here ?

——–”The reason you guys get so agitated is US keeps giving us dollars and weapons.”

On the contrary US gave Nuclear deal to India not Pakistan, you guys kept crying like babies about it but you will never get it, because of Photo Chor Khan, your nuclear proliferation record is very bad. This made him apologize on National TV, you must have seen that super show.

US companies are bidding in India to sell weapons, we don;t get weapons and Dollars in bakhsheesh, we at least have dignity to pay for our needs.

——–”Word of avdised why are you obsessed with Pak? Always reading this site and not letting go any chnace to defame pakistan. Not doing a good job are you… 5 of u 1 pro-pak and still unable to get your point across. No wonder you are labelled as Gay hind!!”

Its you and your countrymen who are obsessed with India, this site is REUTERS.IN (REUTERS INDIA), I have written it in caps for you, if you have micro eyes just like your micro brain. What the hell are YOU doing on an Indian Edition of an American Website.

——–”About sucide west I am happy with my life I dont need to go down that route but if i did dont worry il be hugging you Gay hind!!”

So the ones with suicide vests, you export to whole world must not happy with their lives. As I assumed correctly that’s why Pakistan is connected to all terrorist attacks. You guys have a pathetic life there and everybody wants to go to heaven to meet his 72 virgins. Do they tell you if virgins are male or females ?

As always you can ignore all my sane questions and keep using obscene language. The Vocabulary you use tell us about where you were born and what kind of people have brought you up, never mind I will not come down at your level and call you Magic Seven Hundred $hit !!

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive

LOLOLOLOL Magic,

I actually took some comments of yours seriously. You are right – more fool me.

But hey congratulations, I see you have written some comments without just saying idiots, ‘rapests’ (what pests are those?) and the usual filthy abuse.

You are growing up. Keep it up son and we may, just may, be able to have a good serious discussion once that happens. Maybe another 15 years.

Till then I can just laugh at you. Thanks for the humour.

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive

“But when you Pakistanis talk about the countless murders & rapes being conducted by the Indian army in J&K, it’s only source is the Pakistani media & none other, when you talk about the poor treatment of Indian minorities, it’s source is only the Pakistani media”

Go on to any BBC website and heva look with your eyes wide open and you will see what hey have to say as well as the local kashmriis about kashmir..So its not always Pak media. The discovery of graves in the valley where you buried young kashmris who yuo have killed and staged it as perrorists. Its not Pak media its BBC varous human rights organisation and if you insist will also forward you the links.

Since some of your fellow countrymen saying we should cut all diplomatic ties… go for it whos stopping you?

If you had any dignity and knew with full prove these guys were trained in AJK or Paistan and then go to india to wage war. Why not attack those capms I dare you??!

But idiots are all talk talk talk and even you leaders have to say “lets talk about talks”. what?! I think after 6 decades we both know what one has to talk about… Kashmir, Sichan, Sircreek and water. But no talk about talks my foot. Typical idiotic re-marks from idiots leaders….

How about Mr Salamn saying under your noses that terrorism is global issue not just Pakistans responsibilty so get a life and dont give us lectures! Sat in your home and told you in clear plain words and wasnt it you rmr singh in sharm-el sheikh who said we will not link terrorism with this diologue as it will only encourage hardcore elements both sides who do not want peace to do something to derail it… and when he went back to india he went back on his words so that clearly tells us indians agree on one thing and than backtrack.

Posted by Magic786 | Report as abusive

Incompotent idiotic leaders one day they sit on table and say we will not let these terroist attcks de-rail the talks and give there word in Egypt. As soon as they go home back track after comming under pressure from the hardcore hindus… who want to keep hostitly agianst pakistan at any cost. Knowing there house is burning and put more pressure n them.

You can give title to the pages – Pakistan now or NEVER!
Idiotic wishfull thinking is NEVER! But thats a idiots bad dream which will NEVER come true. Pakistan is here to stay and till we do will live with dignity and tell you idiots where you stand. On equal footing so either sit and talk and sort the problems or why not be men and say no talks you do what you want and we will do what we want!!

Rather than comming under pressure from uncle sam and call paks to have a dialouge and in that dialogue want to talk about talks surely at this snail pace we will need another century to come to solution.

Idiots want to show the world they are peacefull want talks… but not on kashmir, water and so many other outstanding issue NO… “talk about talks”.

If I dont call you IDIOTS what other word do you idiots want me to use? My vacabullary is not good as some of my idiot sons!!!

Posted by Magic786 | Report as abusive

g-w

Whats your problem? Want one to one? Feel free and dont hide behind your VDU and pertend you are Khalsa lion!

I know what you are single pasli, veg eating rat and stay there dont come out of your hole..

Duck, why I am not doing anything with your sister… before you throw the sliper and least ask her what she wants… GaY hind!

Just carry on bowing to your masters and make sure not that much that you get back ache… after all your leaders qite old and fragile but i like Mr Singh! That he at least had the courage to de-link terror from peace talks all the rest of you are bunch of crack pots. Think just kos you have got bit of money which is still not enough to feed all your brotehrs n sisters not forgetting the untouvhables want to be super power. You lot cant compete with pak never mind China!

Posted by Magic786 | Report as abusive

[...] discussed in my last post, the place to watch for developments on relations between India and Pakistan right now is more [...]

I think the “commercial break” is getting bit long.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive

Saw an interesting review by MJ Akbar in the Sunday Times this morning. I tend to agree with most of what Mr Akbar opines there, and also that India has made a mess of these talks.

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive

@Magic786,

You got me wrong bhai-sab. I am Hindu Moyhal Brahmin. We are about as tough as punjabis are made. My lineage lived among the Pathans and other muslims in Afghanistan and Punjabi Lahore area and my descendents were loyal and fierce protectors of Sikhs and Hindus and on my mother’s side, they are Maratha and you know much about Maratha, if you know about King Shivaji of Maratha, who was a bastion and a fort of resistance against Islamic occupiers and invaders. We are not vegetarian, except on certain days, but the fierce brand of brahmins that are hardened and fierce warriors, many of my clan hold key positions in the Indian army, generals, pilots, etc.

BTW..I do not have any sisters, only brothers. My entire lineage and family are highly educated and we are extremists of any kind. We have family that are extremely successful working in Tata, and many working in Silicon valley.

Culturally, we are more Punjabi Sikh than Hindu. So..you should know that you have too many racist stereotypes in your mind of Hindus and Sikhs.

Sikhs are the lions of India and the best that India has to offer. Please do not lay any insult.

We should not negotiate with those who conduct terror. You people want to negotiate peace for the sole purpose of buying time and show your people…”hey…they are begging to talk to us…but we can still keep stabbing the worthless kaffirs in the back”…that is the intention of Pakistan to buy time to plan more havoc and waste upon India and more lies and more terrorism.

All that is fine…within 20-50 years, India will be so much more advanced and ahead in every manner than Pakistan.

Just ask any European, canadian or american whether they prefer Indians or Pakistani’s….the answer will be Indians.

Suck it up princess..deal with the fact that you just plain ole suck, in every way possible.

On the nuke issue….don’t even bother bringing it up again…if Pakistan ever foolish launched one, pre-emptively…Pakistan would be finished completely in one day and not be a recoverable society.

Talk about something productive and watch that trash talking mouth of yours…it is evident that whatever you lack in intelligence…you more than makeup in tale tales, a dirty mouth and hateful outlook. Every time you open your “Bootha” the stench of fecal matter permeates.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

Myra,

Why do we need Pakistan ? Pakistan has been very hostile neighbour for us , ever since its creation, Pakistan has done everything with in its might, to hurt Indian interest , be it Pakistan sponsored terror , killing of innocent people in the name of islam . Why should we need Pakistan as our ally or friend? As far the outstanding issues are concerned, Pakistan must show us its intentions to act against terrorists .

Pakistan has been recognised internationally as principal sponsor of terrorism , and existence of nuclear weapons pose a greater danger to entire world, international community should immediately take possession to prevent any catastrophe .

Posted by manishindia | Report as abusive

Dara:

Thanks for the reference of MJ Akbar’s Sunday Times article.

I do not understand why India allowed Salman Bashir to meet separatists in Kashmir. Is it something to have with Indian offer sometime ago (I think so) to separatists to have talks but separatists wanted Islamabad involved. Is this some step in that direction? While I can understand MJ Akbar raising the issue that Salman had the last word, but meeting with Separatists is hard to explain except that it is calculated step. But if that is the case, India should make it clear.

All these talks are just for the sake to say India and Pak are on talking terms.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive

@Dara,Rajeev,

If we put aside the bigger picture for now and focus on the foreign secretaries’ meeting itself, and particularly on Salman Bashir’s press conference, can I ask you three questions:

1) Have you watched the entire press conference? I watched it live on television, and I don’t recognise many of the descriptions I’ve seen of it in the Indian media

2) It was, as far as I can remember, India’s turn to go to Islamabad for talks. Instead India insisted that Bashir come to Delhi. Why then is there so much anger about him giving Pakistan’s position in Delhi?

3) Is the real issue not so much about what happened between Bashir and Rao — they are both incredibly experienced diplomats who would know how to handle these negotiations — but about “managing the message” afterwards to domestic constituencies?

This is the argument made here by the Business Standard:

http://www.business-standard.com/india/n ews/managingmessage/387134/

Myra

Posted by Myra.MacDonald | Report as abusive

Rajeev,

As far as I know it is the thing to do. Pakistanis come here, meet the Hurriyat first, I don’t ever remember them having any meetings with mainstream politicians, by the way. This is a sort of tacit understanding; India says we know you support them and fund them and are their mentors. Pakistan says hey we provide diplomatic and moral support, and the Hurriyat says we are the ones whom the Pakistanis listen to before they talk here. I have no idea why this circus takes place every time, but it does.

I wonder what would happen now if Nirupama Rao says I want to meet Baloch leaders or someone else who is taking potshots at the Pakistanis in Pakistan. I am sure the Pakistanis will lay out a red carpet!!! Any bets?

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive

Myra,

I did not see any part of the press conference, so I cannot comment on that. All I do know is that the Times of India the next day, didn’t think it necessary to put it on the center space on the first page but in the right hand column.

I think the main reason really for the coldness, is that people in India are now wondering just what their government is upto – behind their backs. Just a few days earlier we were being fed the no talk buzz. What is irking most is why can’t the govt discuss this openly and say we are going to talk and these are our reasons. Manmohan Singh later, after the meet, said “We have no choice but to talk”. Considering all the earlier waffle on the subject, people are now getting fed up with this on again off again Pak chummy not chummy deal. I know I am. I also want my government to spell out its policy in black and white, we are not ready to accept bombastic statements.

I din’t know it was India’s turn to go to Pakistan. But India, as far as I know, did not “insist” they come. I think they invited them. I am also not aware of Pakistan saying they would rather have the Indians visiting. Didn’t know this was an issue at all.

The real message to my mind is really just this. We are fed up of Pakistan’s antics and double speak. I said this earlier too, 26/11 was a public opinion changer in India and there has been no closure. Saeed is now talking as if he is Pakistan’s Defence and Foreign minister, the rial of those charged with 26/11 in Pakistan is being run on the basis of adjournments and the whole thing is being seen here as an eyewash. I am afraid the mood in India, except for the Wagah candle lighters, is one of lets just get on and handle whatever comes our way. We can expect more 26/11s, lets just prepare for that and get on with our lives. Talks or no talks, Pakistan is not going to lift its little finger to either stop cross border terror, or try those involved. All we get are excuses and pious rejoinders of being victims too.

I have never seen such fatigue, disgust and disinterest in the general public over India Pakistan relations before. Believe me I have seen plenty.

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive

Myra:

I am in the USA and did not watch the TV. I also have no idea what went except tidbit of statements in the media. Not a big deal about who invited whom and what was Indian reasons. What I feel is that the Rao and Bashir appear to give different message, which is much like what Indian and Pakistan’s rhetoric statements normally do. I saw analysis by a Kashmiri on Pakistan website splitting hair—the author-not happy with Bashir overall.

http://www.makepakistanbetter.com/why_ho w_what_forum.asp?GroupID=5&Group_title=P akistan&ArticleID=9407

Do you know what went in Kashmir with Bashir’s meetings with Separatists? Do Indians know?

Separately, here is a video of Kashmiris from across the border who surrendered Arms under the Indian government’s offer of amnesty without fear of persecution in India.

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia/2 010/02/201022412918622868.html

_____________________________
Dara:

I can make my cat fights with the shadow of my hand when I feel. No offense to my cat or Pakistani leaders, but Pakistani leaders fight with Indian shadow and will never allow the Indians talking to Baluchi leaders.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive

[...] to end a “diplomatic freeze” between the two countries since the 2008 Mumbai attacks. According to Reuters’ Myra MacDonald, they did “what they were expected to do — laid out all [...]

[...] New Delhi to end a “diplomatic freeze” between the two countries since the 2008 Mumbai attacks. According to Reuters’ Myra MacDonald, they did “what they were expected to do — laid out all the issues [...]

Dear Myra,

I am very curious (in the litteral sense of the phrase, not the ironic one) about the last paragraph of your article in which you say

“A while back, many analysts argued that the road to peace in Afghanistan ran through Kashmir. The quickening timeframe for the Afghan war suggests there is no longer the time for such a lengthy detour. Now it runs through Kabul.”

I am currently doing research for my Masters dissertation on the balance of power between Afghanistan, Pakistan and India and I found your comment very interesting (as is the rest of your blog may I add). Could you develop what you mean by your last paragraph further, why and how does it run through Kabul now?

Many thanks in advance and bonne continutation.

Alex

Posted by alexFM | Report as abusive

[...] on Afghanistan would require both countries to build on the dialogue which began last month when India invited Pakistan’s foreign secretary to talks in New Delhi.  The alternative – as amply demonstrated over the past week – would be to leave it to [...]

[...] Rao meets Pakistani Foreign Secretary Salman Bashir on June 24, and the two diplomats – who last met in February – are then due to prepare for a follow-up meeting between their foreign ministers. Indian [...]

[...] 2008 attacks on Mumbai,  had in any case already been carried out by their top diplomats, foreign secretaries Nirupama Rao and Salman Bashir.  Their aim, according to an ANI profile of Rao, was to take the India-Pakistan relationship off [...]