Seeking Saudi cooperation on Afghanistan and Pakistan

February 28, 2010

saudiPrime Minister Manmohan Singh is making the first visit to Saudi Arabia by an Indian leader since 1982, seeking to build economic ties and to enlist the kingdom’s help in improving regional security. While much of the focus is likely to be on securing oil supplies for India’s growing economy, the visit is also part of the complex manoeuvres by regional players jostling for position on Afghanistan and beyond.

Singh told Saudi journalists ahead of the visit that he would discuss with Saudi King Abdullah how to promote greater stability and security in the region.  “Both King Abdullah and I reject the notion that any cause justifies wanton violence against innocent people. We are strong allies against the scourge of extremism and terrorism that affects global peace and security,” he said.

Junior Foreign Minister Shashi Tharoor also said India could seek Saudi support in persuading Pakistan to act against Pakistan-based Islamist militant groups — later adding however this did not mean looking for Saudi mediation (anathema to India which sees no room for third party involvement in its relationship with Pakistan).

“Saudi Arabia of course has a long and close relationship with Pakistan but that makes Saudi Arabia all the more a valuable interlocutor for us,” he said. ”When we tell them about our experience, Saudi Arabia listens as somebody who is not anyway an enemy of Pakistan but rather as a friend of Pakistan, and therefore I am sure listens with sympathy and concern to a matter of this nature.”

Sunni Saudi Arabia has close ties with Pakistan, seeing it in part as a bulwark against Shiite Iran, its main rival. Analysts say it shares Pakistan’s concerns about Indian and Iranian influence in Afghanistan. It has also been cited as potential mediator with the Taliban. While it has shown little enthusiasm right now to act as a mediator, it is expected to play a powerful role in negotiating any eventual political settlement in Afghanistan.

India, meanwhile, invested heavily in Afghanistan after the fall of the Pakistan-backed Taliban in 2001, and built close ties with the government of President Hamid Karzai. It has been caught on the back foot by talk of reconciliation with the Taliban, which it fears could give Pakistan an opportunity to reassert its old influence over Afghanistan as well as bolstering its position as Washington’s indispensable ally in the region.

Some analysts have argued that India should counter this by building its own relationships with both Saudi Arabia and Iran — C. Raja Mohan made this point as early as May last year. Any improvement in the relationship between India and Saudi Arabia, including a deepening economic inter-dependency, could therefore be significant.

However, just to keep it complicated, the regional uncertainty caused by the Afghan war intersects with a showdown between the west and Iran over its nuclear programme.  India has been torn between supporting the United States in taking a tough line on Iran and developing its own relationship with Tehran.

Islamabad, in contrast, has been steadily improving ties with Iran and may have helped it capture the leader of the Jundollah Sunni rebel group, blamed for bombings in its Sistan-Baluchistan province bordering Pakistan and Afghanistan 

Finally, a few more strands to watch  in the regional chess game:

- India and Pakistan have begun tentative talks to end a diplomatic freeze which followed the November 2008 attack on Mumbai

- But as highlighted by Friday’s attack on Kabul, they may be facing a deepening of their rivalry over Afghanistan

- Regardless of the regional influences, Afghans themselves have to decide what kind of political settlement they want (Julia Mahlejd has a good piece up at Registan on how Afghans feel about reintegration and reconciliation)

- Pakistan has yet to fully explain its arrest of senior Taliban leaders, including Taliban commander Mullah Abdul Ghani Baradar

- And don’t forget China, Pakistan’s most loyal ally and India’s rival , which agreed last year to work with the United States to try to stabilise the region.

(Photo: Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh with Saudi business leaders)

Comments

Saudis only listen to the Americans. Therefore to bring them around to control Pakistan, the US has to get involved in the game with India. Control of Pakistan will solve all issues in the region. It is the main culprit and it has been dodging the efforts to bring peace by slipping out and being deceptive. Its sudden arrest of Taliban leaders is an example. It has ulterior motives and acts only in its interest. The US has to work towards bringing Pakistan under control first before doing anything else. India and the US must convince the Saudis about their co-operation in bringing Pakistan to normalcy. This means it will have to be forced to give up its marriage to terrorist organizations and groups like the Taliban. Without resetting Pakistan, this war on terror will get nowhere.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan and Saudi Arabia enjoy a special relationship, Pakistan must press Saudi Arabia to confront India on Kashmir dispute and resolve it. If India wants to expand its relationship with the muslim world, it should be prepared to pay the price. And the price is a just settlement of all disputes with Pakistan.
As far as US is concerned, India always said no third party mediation is acceptable. Now with Saudi Arabia why is India asking to intervene in issues related to Pakistan?

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

As India becomes an economic power, it will increasingly assert it’s influence over countries like Saudi Arabia & China, who are looking to strengthen economic ties with India & sell their products & services in one of the world’s most lucrative market. King Abdullah has a reputation of being a level-headed moderate figure, who has taken steps to curtail radicalization at home in recent times. India will & must exercise it’s leverage with Saudi Arabia to help reign in Pakistan. Pakistan is rapidly becoming an irritant & an embarrassment to it’s so-called friends i.e. China, Saudi Arabia etc. Slowly but surely, even they have started to realize that Pakistan has become a cancer, which needs to be cured & done away with, for good.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Mortal1:
” King Abdullah has a reputation of being a level-headed moderate figure, who has taken steps to curtail radicalization at home in recent times.”

You dont know what you are talking about? You have no clue of King Abdullah’s reputation. King Abdullah is an outspoken Saudi leader who brought up his own Middle East peace plan and pushed for settlement with israel. King Abdullah have bluntly told Americans to reign in Israel and stop settlements building, his words carry weight and it is known, he has a no non-sense attitude. You are assured if you deal with Saudis seriously they will not accept non-sense. Like Pakistan, Saudi Arabia has a problem with its tribal region bordering Yemen and is tackling AQAP(Al Qaeda in Arabian Peninsula) which has even sought to kill Saudi Royals. Saudi Arabia faces the same challenges as Pakistan, and it has started an ambitious plan of reintegrating radicalized youth through rehabilitation programs. King Abdullah has a vision for his people and to this end knows what is good for their country. This is the basis of Saudi-Pak relations, greaer trust and understanding.
And as for Pakistan, as far back as 2003 there have been credible reports that some of Pakistan’s nuclear assets have been transferred to Saudi desert and in case of Israel threatning the security of the Kingdom or even Iran, Saudi Arabia will have a nuclear deterrent. Such close is the Saudi-Pak relationship, also members of SSG(special Services group)Pakistan Army carry out VIP security of Saudi Royal family both in the past and currently as well.
Pakistan is increasingly positioning itself to play a major regional role in post conflict Afghanistan, a major paradigm shift is evident. It is India which is increasingly isolated, having placed all their bets on the corrupt Karzai regime in Afghanistan which is crumbling and putting itself in a vulnerable spot, the attacks on Indian interests in Kabul are a clear signal. india is looking vulnerable unable to protect its interests, Pakistan on the other hand is getting more pro-active and assertive with its Afghan policy. Under international pressure, India had to restart dialogue with Pakistan, despite using coercive diplomacy and failing.
Pakistan has its own place in the muslim world, and Saudi Arabia has its own prestige. You Indians need to get rid of the cancer of hate agianst Pakistan, otherwise be idiots and see the world through your lens. Even the Americans 0% leverage with Saudi Arabia, India’s leverage might well be in negative.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Saudis consider nuclear bomb (2003)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/sep  /18/nuclear.saudiarabia
-”UN officials said there have been rumours going back 20 years that the Saudis wanted to pay Pakistan to do the research and development on nuclear weapons.”
-”Four years ago, Saudi Arabia sent a defence team to Pakistan to tour its secret nuclear facilities and to be briefed by Abdul Qader Khan, the father of Pakistan’s nuclear bomb. ”

Saudia Arabia working on secret nuclear program with Pakistan help – report (2006)

http://www.forbes.com/feeds/afx/2006/03/ 28/afx2629000.html

-”According to Western security services, the magazine added, Saudi scientists have been working since the mid-1990s in Pakistan, a nuclear power since 1998.”

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

india cannot do more with saudi, as pakistan has already open strategic partnership with it. pakistan is planning to build a base in Suadi from where it can lauch nuclear missles as a second strike if pakistan is attacked by india or any other enemy.

Posted by nilsm86 | Report as abusive
 

More confusion. As I understand it “interlocutor” means a talker, interpreter or questioner. Interlocution – interchange of speech, conversation. Tharoor too says that this is what he means. Someone we can talk to. Nothing more nothing less.

So where has this particular interpretation that he is asking for Saudi to mediate between India and Pakistan come from? Is this reporting news or creating news? I know this has been the main topic on at least two TV channels in India and I am simply amazed that they have not checked what the word means. Or have I got it wrong?

Finally a word about all this talk about Pakistan’s policy of seeking strategic depth and influence over Afghan foreign policy once the Exit comes about. There is one thing everyone seems to have forgotten. No one has succeeded in controlling Afghanistan for any length of time. Not the Brits, not the Soviets and certainly not the coalition forces there currently. Pakistan will probably be another on this list in the very near future.

I am more concerned with what Karzai is reported to have said after the latest suicide attack in Kabul, that the war on terror has achieved nothing. What a waste of life and a sobering thought for the future.

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive
 

Funny idiots lol

We do not want third party involved in our billateral issues…

Then put their tail between their legs and run to saudis to tell Pakistan off. To mediate and bla bla yeh whatever how about when you call the Paks for talks thats the time to talk…. discuss and undertsand each others intrests as well as start to built trust.

Then idiots want to “talk about talks” except for talk no talk on the core issues. They can try Saudis knows who stands where… Think more to do with securing their oil supply maybe little to do with pakistan possibly Mr Singh asking or requesting Saudis to ask pakistan. Not to harm indian intrest in Afghanistan even though there couslates are in full flow working to create probs…

Posted by Magic786 | Report as abusive
 

“india cannot do more with saudi, as pakistan has already open strategic partnership with it. pakistan is planning to build a base in Suadi from where it can lauch nuclear missles as a second strike if pakistan is attacked by india or any other enemy.”

- Posted by nilsm86

Who told you the Pakistan is planning Nuclear Missile base in Saudi Arabia ?

Care to share some more info ?

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive
 

Myra:

So it is Singh and King.

With USA, Saudis and Chinse having leverage over Pakistan and all three with having good relationship with each other, India strengthening relationship with all three is common sense. So I think it is a good move that Singh himself is going to Saudis. India is no Pakistan and Singh is no Sharif, it is much different relationship as is evident from mutual benefits that the trade brings and the leverage it does. I am sure Singh will have much more talk than just India-Pak problems, although center will be terrorism syn Pakistan. May be Singh will suggesting King better uses of money than spending on Pakistan.

@However, just to keep it complicated, the regional uncertainty caused by the Afghan war intersects with a showdown between the west and Iran over its nuclear programme. India has been torn between supporting the United States in taking a tough line on Iran and developing its own relationship with Tehran.”
—This is one thing that India has to be careful with. Despite everything India-US relationship should not be built on India having to spoil its relationship with any other country—be that Iran. Russia and China are not supporting sanctions against US and Russian army chief warned US for attacking Iran’s nuke program.

India should also not support sanctions against Iran. Indian saying yes to sanctions against Iran without Russia and China doing so is meaningless in any case but will spoil India-Iran relationship. Assuming Russia and China goes with US, India should still not do so. In case India has to, India should ask US that the price is Pakistan taking action against terrorism in India. India has more danger from Islamic terrorism than US (and Israel) has from Iran’s nukes.
________________________________________ ________________

Umair:

You love to confront people just for the heck of it. You said the same thing what Mortal summarized in a line plus your Masala. .

Is it really that hard to understand for you that strengthening a relationship with Saudis does not amount to seeking their intervention in solving the dispute with Pakistan. This is called diplomacy. If you are unsure read Myra’s article and Shashi Tharoor’s statement. Author, please do that.

@f India wants to expand its relationship with the muslim world, it should be prepared to pay the price. And the price is a just settlement of all disputes with Pakistan.”
@ Pakistan has its own place in the muslim world, and Saudi Arabia has its own prestige. You Indians need to get rid of the cancer of hate agianst Pakistan, otherwise be idiots and see the world through your lens.”

–It is a joke each time you speak for the Muslim world. Perhaps you do not know that India has better and healthier relationship with Muslim world than Pakistan. Iran, Iraq and Afghanistan—your 3 continuous nations on Pakistan’s West, all have better relationship with India. Many Muslims from non-Pakistan Muslim nations know it that you hate India for your political hatred and that has nothing to do with the religion and they do not share the hatred you have for India and Hindus, especially knowing the fact that India also has a Muslim population nearly as large as Pakistan. My Lebanese and Turk friends laugh at you when they hear that Pakistan speaks for the Muslim word and they roll in laughter when they hear Pakistan’s dreams of becoming leader of Muslim world! Just imagine why would rich Sunni nation Saudi Arabia–who has good relationship with USA—let you be their leader. Oh because Pakistan has bomb and gives SSG as security to Saudis–just that!!! FYI, in addition to SSG, Saudi royal family has US and British bodyguards—Saudis cannot possibly depend on SSG alone with Ilyas Kashmiri, an SSG commando, turning into a terrorist. Saudis definitely do not need nukes since no Nuke–from Israel or anywhere–is touching them any day and Pakistani Nukes are no deterrent for them in any case. They have relationship with Pakistan since they treat you like a baby Muslim nation–whose leaders are all the time in need of shelter and nation needs money all the time.

Thank Saudis for saving your Punjabi lion Nawaz Sharif from execution by Muhajir commando Pervez Mushy, who was chosen because he being a Muhajir will be in better control of Sharif. Instead Mushy turned out to be not even in control of him self.

Pakistan seriously needs to know that it has hardly even a cent value as a Muslim nation. With the rate it is going, it might face FATWA.

___________________________

Magic786/Umair:
@ And surely neither me nor Magic786 are idiots, we are Pakistanis.
Posted by Umairpk
Magic786: So you are a Pakistani, pretending to be a Kashmiri, eh!

Umair: Thanks for the vital piece of information that both of you are not an idiot! lol But Magic786 is a Paki for sure.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

@all especially umair and magic. I came across this article, and really felt i should share it. It literally reeks of Indian propaganda and had it not been written by a pakistani journalist, I would never have given it a second look, let alone share it. Its time to end this religion fueled hate. You are not only giving pakistan a bad name, but islam as well. The fact remains in the modern world, not all muslims are terrorists, but most terrorists are muslim. If you truly love peace and care for your families, friends and faith; please take a stand against extremism and history will be on your side.

Capital suggestion
By Dr Farrukh Saleem

Here’s what is happening in India :

The two Ambani brothers can buy 100 percent of every company listed on the Karachi Stock Exchange (KSE) and would still be left with $30 billion to spare. The four richest Indians can buy up all goods and services produced over a year by 169 million Pakistanis and still be left with $60 billion to spare. The four richest Indians are now richer than the forty richest Chinese.

In November, Bombay Stock Exchange’s benchmark Sensex flirted with 20,000 points. As a consequence, Mukesh Ambani’s Reliance Industries became a $100 billion company (the entire KSE is capitalized at $65 billion). Mukesh owns 48 percent of Reliance.

In November, comes Neeta’s birthday. Neeta turned forty-four three weeks ago. Look what she got from her husband as her birthday present: A sixty-million dollar jet with a custom fitted master bedroom, bathroom with mood lighting, a sky bar, entertainment cabins, satellite television, wireless communication and a separate cabin with game consoles. Neeta is Mukesh Ambani’s wife, and Mukesh is not India ‘s richest but the second richest.

Mukesh is now building his new home, Residence Antillia (after a mythical, phantom island somewhere in the Atlantic Ocean ). At a cost of $1 billion this would be the most expensive home on the face of the planet. At 173 meters tall Mukesh’s new family residence, for a family of six, will be the equivalent of a 60-storeyed building. The first six floors are reserved for parking. The seventh floor is for car servicing and maintenance. The eighth floor houses a mini-theatre. Then there’s a health club, a gym and a swimming pool. Two floors are reserved for Ambani family’s guests. Four floors above the guest floors are family floors all with a superb view of the Arabian Sea . On top of everything are three helipads. A staff of 600 is expected to care for the family and their family home.

In 2004, India became the 3rd most attractive foreign direct investment destination. .. Pakistan wasn’t even in the top 25 countries.

In 2004, the United Nations, the representative body of 192 sovereign member states, had requested the Election Commission of India to assist the UN in the holding elections in Al Jumhuriyah al Iraqiyah and Dowlat-e Eslami-ye Afghanestan. . Why the Election Commission of India and not the Election Commission of Pakistan? After all, Islamabad is closer to Kabul than is Delhi .

Imagine, 12 percent of all American scientists are of Indian origin; 38 percent of doctors in America are Indian; 36 percent of NASA scientists are Indians; 34 percent of Microsoft employees are Indians; and 28 percent of IBM employees are Indians.

For the record: Sabeer Bhatia created and founded Hotmail… Sun Microsystems was founded by Vinod Khosla. The Intel Pentium processor, that runs 90 percent of all computers, was fathered by Vinod Dham. Rajiv Gupta co-invented Hewlett Packard’s E-speak project. Four out of ten Silicon Valley start-ups are run by Indians. Bollywood produces 800 movies per year and six Indian ladies have won Miss Universe/Miss World titles over the past 10 years.

For the record: Azim Premji, the richest Muslim entrepreneur on the face of the planet, was born in Bombay and now lives in Bangalore.India now has more than three dozen billionaires; Pakistan has none (not a single dollar billionaire) .

The other amazing aspect is the rapid pace at which India is creating wealth. In 2002, Dhirubhai Ambani, Mukesh and Anil Ambani’s father, left his two sons a fortune worth $2.8 billion. In 2007, their combined wealth stood at $94 billion.. On 29 October 2007, as a result of the stock market rally and the appreciation of the Indian rupee, Mukesh became the richest person in the world, with net worth climbing to US$63.2 billion (Bill Gates, the richest American, stands at around $56 billion). Indians and Pakistanis have the same Y-chromosome haplogroup. We have the same genetic sequence and the same genetic marker (namely: M124).
We have the same DNA molecule, the same DNA sequence. Our culture, our traditions and our cuisine are all the same. We watch the same movies and sing the same songs.
What is it that Indians have and we don’t?
INDIANS ELECT THEIR LEADERS!!!!! !!!!!!!!! !!!!
And also to mention: They think of Construction of own nation, unlike other nations who are just concerned with destruction of others…

Simple answer why the Indian fare better than the Pakistani’.. They don’t focus on religion and neither do they spend time and money in devising ways to kill their own and everyone else over religion.

Posted by khuidude | Report as abusive
 

@Umair,

Umair, as I told you before, you Pakistani’s have defined yourself within the context of being India’s enemy and within the context of 1971, Kashmir and partition. If you notice, your only sense of national pride comes from those times, when you nation got to kill hindus and when your military killed Indians. It is time to live outside of all this and create your own billionaires and successes that make Pakistan shine. We do not hate Pakistan…we do want you to succeed in every way possible, except in the areas of terrorism and separatism against India, or any other country.

It is time to move on it is time for Pakistani to dare to be different, modern and forward thinking. It is time to quit sending your kids to madrassas, Koranic brainwashing is not an education, science and language text books are education.

Religion is important, but human development is billions of times more important, development and expansion of the human mind and spirit outside of religious persuits is paramount, if Pakistan is ever to make anything of itself.

India’s hard drive is backedup all over the world. Even if Infosys was attacked by Pakistan, there is so much brain power and global redundancy, India would come back much stronger, tighter, efficient and better…it is inevitable that India will exceed China one day because of democracy and India will be the the foremost global superpower, not necessarily militarily, but financially. You can’t keep Indians down…we keep raising the bar. We want Pakistan to join us and do the same. Abandon madrasa culture and you will see huge successes personally and otherwise in Pakistan. Terrorism, ignorance and hate cannot exist where there is proper modern education and jobs. Your army has kept your people stupid and forced them to live with killed potential and lost opportunity.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

note correction: we want you to succeed in every way possible.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

Umair, it is your choice to teach your children the same things that your forefathers did, it is also your choice to raise your children to be 21st century leaders. It all starts at home. Everything in life, every thought is a choice. Use all carefully.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

Umair and Magic 786:

” Indians and Pakistanis have the same Y-chromosome haplogroup. We have the same genetic sequence and the same genetic marker (namely: M124).
We have the same DNA molecule, the same DNA sequence. Our culture, our traditions and our cuisine are all the same. We watch the same movies and sing the same songs.
What is it that Indians have and we don’t?”

–>See I told you that you were Hindu..you are genetically family to Hindus. Your propaganda cannot make you deny that we are family. It is time to abandone extremism and madrassas.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

LOL @ Magic786

Hate to be the one to teach you your faith, but what is with the usage of the numbers 786. Incidentally, the numbers 786 are deeply rooted in the concepts of astrology and numerology. Ironically, both these practices are taboo in islam and considered haraam to do so. You are quite literally insulting your faith and the kitaab, by claiming to be a proponent of it and a good muslim at that without even realizing that your screen name is an insult to the words of the prophet. this brings me to certain questions-

1. Is this wrong and offensive practice that you follow, actually part of the islam that is taught to you in pakistan?

2. If so, was the pakistani mulim prophet mohammed different from the real mohammed who created islam?

3. The real mohammed tried to denounce false prophecies and guide people on a path of revelation and understanding. Clearly either you aren’t muslim or you have some other islam. Care to clarify?

4. Mohammed preached unity of all man and the duty of all mulims to look out for their muslim brothers. But, if the entire history of your faith is to be researched, it is amply evident that when you haven’t been fighting the entire world and blaming everyone else for your ills, you start fighting each other and killing each other off. On both cases you have failed your prophet. Hmmm?

5. But putting faith basis of justification and the concept of muslim ummah aside, isn’t the duty of a nation to protect the interests of its people and citizens. The genocide in erstwhile bangladesh begs to differ. Not only were the intellectual muslim ummah slaughtered, but they were your countrymen and citizens as well. The whole basis was a fascist and racist policy of killing the dark skinned ones off and keep them suppressed. Hmmm, clear violation of all muslim and national concepts?

I’m going to stop here. Because knowing you, your response to everything is either going to be “idiot” “tatti” “black madrasi” and the like. Your hypocrisy and brainwashed fanaticism to a faith which isn’t even the real islam, knows no bounds my friend. But then, i am and can never be your friend, simply because i’m not a fake muslim (i’m atheist actually, of hindu and catholic parents), not punjabi (madrasi brahmin from father’s side), not fair (relatively fair actually, since brahmins are direct descendent’s of the original aryan invaders) and basically non-PA allied. Where do we go from here? Only you can create the change you want to see. I’m sure your prophet is rolling over in his grave in the light of the mockery his message of kindness has been turned into.

Leave it upto the fanatic lot of muslims, to turn every new scientific discovery into something that was prophesied in the koran whereas the prophet was against any kind of superstition and false prophecy. And leave it upto you to turn a religion of peace, prosperity and progress into an instrument of hate, destruction and backward narrow mindedness. Bravo my friends, even if you hate me for pointing these obvious fallacies of your ways, the truth shall always prevail and the fact shall remain that even as representatives of enemy factions, I am willing to accept you as friends. As a final question, my arms are open and willing to embrace, are your as well? If yes, there is still some hope, if no, then why even bother to resolve our issues.

Posted by khuidude | Report as abusive
 

I am Kashmiris simply if I have anything positive to say about Pakistan or India does not make me indian pakistani etc… So I admit Umair you got it wrong yes I live in Azad Kashmir. But I am a Kashmiri Muslim first so hes got it wrong so therefore you rajeeve as well.

Hopefully thats clarified the matter…

“Pakistan seriously needs to know that it has hardly even a cent value as a Muslim nation.”

Totally disagree since you are not Muslim or living in a Muslim country to know there opnions on Pakistan first hand. Excepet you only have anti-pakistan websites and star plus to enhance your knowledge. I dont think Pakistan would want to become the leader of the muslim world…Muslims dont need leaders they need Caliphate…

But again its an idots wishfull thinking which they are entitled to…

Now to our neighours Iran..who assisted them in taking down the leader of Jundullah maybe little pak co-operation. I wonder if you have better relations with Iran than why in every war Iran has stood behind Pakistan. For example supplying free oil and so on at time of war. Who can blame Afghanistan Karz ai is just wests puppet who hasnt even been elecetd by afghans. Lived in Quetta and soon as got the call from west becomes this leader infact hes just corrupt as anyone I can name. If there was true goverement represting the people of afghnaistan pakistan is open to good relation.

After all millions are refugees were looked after in Pakistan not Inida how many you took? Now that you have narcotics leader offcourse indian would be happy wo work with him not tohelp the afghans. But to help them in a way to undermine pakistan but good luck.

Posted by Magic786 | Report as abusive
 

khuidude..

I am only india bashing when idiots are doing the same. But that doe snot mean two wrongs make it right however I have been reading this blog for over three years first I never use to bother to comment. I thought leave these fanatics to defend there opnions and so on…

However all this time I have never heard any indian NEVER to utter a word aginst there army who have raped murdered countless kashmiris. The numbers vary but at least we can agree on over 50 thousands kashmiris were killed or martyred.. Out of all thosese no, are you telling me not even one kashmriis innocently was killed by inidan forces or staged or raped? Since any naive person will agree some of the fault also lies within the occupation forces then why no word of protest.. Not even one you lot want to tell us we are brainwashed I woulddnt be wrong if that was other way round too.

That indians are also brainwashed to hate pakis via your news channel, movies, dramas and so on. If you dont believe me just tune into star plus or other news channels and then tune into pak news channels. Compare it there is more hatered on your side than ours but again two wrongs dont make it right.

So I dont really care…but i do care when india does not want to sincerly talk about kashmir. In order to resolve it rather than “talk about talks”. Hide behind excuses as always since its independence. The funniest oart is it is meant to mother of all democracies then why not also to listen to what the kashmiris want.

Even in Delhi rooftops you can probobly hear the kashmiri slogans…of AZADI! Its ok for you to have that but others can not have what they want whos the hypocrite?

Posted by Magic786 | Report as abusive
 

Thanks for trying to teach me my faith but I dont need your help… infact you need to help yourself! That would be good start….

“I am willing to accept you as friends” Firstly which friends?

I am willing to be your friend if you can say a word based on truth for the true kashmiris that are being mistreated by your so called brave forces. What can India do to win kashmiris hearts? Simple leave kashmir!

Posted by Magic786 | Report as abusive
 

On a personal note, I couldn’t care less for religion and i think you have to be an incredibly weak individual to look for answers in a higher power or even believe in one. But the fact remains, I take personal offense when any faith is insulted, and I go out of my way to make sure I never do it and that those who do it are chastised for their wrongdoings.

Umair and Magic, your hate filled rhetoric against hindus offends me, not because my father is one. What really offends me, is that you stoop to name calling such as “Black madrasi”, ” stone worshipper”, “animal worshipper”, “idiot”, etc.. It not just puts you as a foolish hate mongerer, but screams volumes about your clear ignorance and lack of understanding of a different faith which pretty much espouses the same virtues and tells the same stories of morals are your own adopted faith. Then comes your clearly warped perspective and understanding of your own faith which i find extremely insulting because no member of any faith has the right to put his own faith in a bad light just because of a lack of understanding of it. You fall into the zone of absolute ignorance of everything that is good in islam and prove the brainwashed fascist indoctrination of the youth mindset by selective propaganda.

The last time this mistake was made, it took place in germany with the concept of racial superiority and we all know what happened and how things ended. What makes it even worse for Pakistan, is that you have nothing, quite literally nothing? So all your grandiose dreams of world domination, is just that, a dream. So please, I request you, to keep your hate off the table and try and behave like a civilized human being in the 21st century. If you insist on being disrespectful of other cultures and faiths at least show some respect for your own. In your current position, you insult your ancestors by insulting the faith they were forced to abandon at the tip of the sword and you insult the faith they imbibed at the tip of the sword. History has left deep wounds. Only when you are willing to forsake the wounds of the past can there be some hope of a peaceful future.

Posted by khuidude | Report as abusive
 

As for your endless rhetoric about Kashmir, the solution is very simple and could have been solved a long time ago. Atrocities are always committed in war. And there is no denying that we are at war, albeit a proxy one.

If the cause is real and just, which i think it is but which i also think has been swept under the rug, the solution can easily be obtained by non-violent means. Remember one thing, the freedom which we have today and take for granted, was obtained not a the end of the barrel of a gun or due to the terror tactics of the suicide bomber. It was obtained by the selfless sacrifice of our leaders who over the years of repression and beatings stood their ground and won their freedom on moral grounds.

If the Kashmiris really aren’t wrong and really think they have the right to self-determination, let them take the higher moral ground, rather than have india sway them and win their hearts or have pakistan control, let them renounce violence. Let them win the hearts of the Indians. Only through non-violence was the sub-continent liberated. Love and non-violence unite people and win hearts and support. violence only begets violence and no matter how true and valid the cause, only casts it in a bad light.

Posted by khuidude | Report as abusive
 

Umair wrote: ” And surely neither me nor Magic786 are idiots, we are Pakistanis”

Please do not lower yourself below idiots like this! Come on have some pride! By claiming the above, you are confirming that idiots at least have some brain and Pakistanis have none.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Singh:

LOL good call…both are complete backwards bandhirs!…and these are the educated ones from Pakistan. This is exactly why Pakistan is standing still and doomed, these educated types are the future of Pakistan, again I say, that is why Pakistan is doomed.

This is not a good time to be bragging about being Pakistani.

;D

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

India and Saudi economic relationship has existed for a long time and are constantly improving. But to take the relationships to next level is not going to be that easy because of Pakistani influence. Saudi Govt is also very sensitive to public opinion in Pakistan. During Musharaf era, India’s request to join OIC was turn down because Pakistan threatened to quit the organisation, if India is allowed to join.

“Prime Minister Indira Gandhi tried to form a relationship with Riyadh in 1982–but it didn’t get her anywhere. The Saudis helped Pakistan’s quest for nuclear power, and many believe that Saudi Arabia has been accorded a Nuclear umbrella by Islamabad. The Pakistanis support the Saudi government and Saudi Arabia is one of the largest contributors of foreign investment in Pakistan and Pakistani infrastructure.

Good relations between Riyadh and Delhi means toleration at best and aloofness at worst.”

Posted by babag | Report as abusive
 

Magic/ALI:

@Now to our neighours Iran..who assisted them in taking down the leader of Jundullah maybe little pak co-operation. I wonder if you have better relations with Iran than why in every war Iran has stood behind Pakistan.”
—Hey, this is why I call you a Pakistani. You defend Pakistan despite you saying that you are a Kashmiri, not pro-pak and pro-India. Clearly you are lying all through.

If you cannot explain your stand why you support Pakistan blindly and why you hate India blindly, you untwittigly become a non-serious person to talk on Kashmir issue. If you are waiting to hear Indians say they hate Kashmiris, that is not coming despite you saying “Long Live LeT and Death to India” after Mumbai (where 40 muslim innocent and 120+ non-Muslims were killed). So despite being a Kashmiri Muslim, in your blind hatred for India, you are asking for the death of Muslims. Knowing you, I have no hopes nor want you to condone non-Muslims killings. Every time there is a blast in India, it is not hard to understand that a Muslim dies. I do say death to Pakistani terrorists—who are meant for revenge against India not for Kashmir cause, who according to you are freedom fighters. Keep on dreaming untill eternity then for free Kashmir. But sitting in Lahore or wherever how do you care about kashmiris? You are a hurdle in Kashmir cause with your thoughts and are in no way different than a Pakistani. Crying everyday rape does not make you concerned for Indian Kashmiris, and I, who does not shed crocodile tears, does not make me any less concerned. Let me be clear, do not speak for Indian Kashmiris.

If you want to have a meaningful dialogue, go back to my posts on other blog, where I responded to your comments and asked you to explain your double standards. Could you care to comment on:

1. how you explain Pakistan gifting Kashmir land to China?

2. You said Pak Army is protecting Kashmir from Indian Army taking control of Kashmir. I respond to you with the fact with with ex-Air chief Asghan Khan saying:
“The fact is that in the last 60 years of our existence, India has not started hostilities against Pakistan unless provoked to do so, or until we created conditions, as we did in 1971 in East Pakistan, for India to interfere militarily….”

Then you never comment on it and run away like sissy.

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn -content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/colu mnists/16-ardeshir-cowasjee-wise-words-f rom-an-old-warrior-hs-04

3. Did you read SDPI report for the basis of hatred against India and Hindus taught to you—POK and Pak have similar curiculum?

4. Have you been to Shopian or at all the places where rapes happened or are you trusting some news fed to you like you blame Indians do. Persoanlly, it is longtime I saw Indian TV channel. You perhaps watch more than I do.

5. About Kashmir situation, at this point I can say like in any other situation where security vs terrorists are involved, common man suffers. Kashmiris are stuck in this between Indian army and Pakistani terrorists. Indian Army cannot leave Kashmir—bear that in mind if you have a bit of common sense and no the history of Indo-Pak wars. I can agree with the news in general that atrocities have happened in Kashmir. But at what scale? How many rapes and how much is propaganda? I have no clue; no one has. Is it the same what you have in mind. If not, are you wasting your time and energy at wrong issue. Is it any worse than Karachi—where 100women per day are raped (mainly domestic help) by Muslims or is it worse than E.Pakistan where PArmy raped and killed its 1-3 millions of its own. Are you a man enough to comment on this and and deal with the facts and say Pakistan is worse than India or sissy who will run away begging Pakistani Punjabi terrorists to attack India just because Pakistan is Islamic Republic. But over this issue you will claim oh no I am a Kashmiri and over other issues you will speak for Pakistan.

6. Is terrorism by Pakistani terrorist the solution to Kashmir? It is a hindrance as I think. Perhaps you think one fine day, India will be sick of terrorism and say we are leaving. That is infeasible and is not happening if you understand the reality and the viability of anyone’s political career.

7. Limit your concern for Pakistan and focus on Kashmir, it hardly matters for you if Singh goes to King for telling against Pakistan or not. A Kashmiri, concerned about rapes, must be open to any solution not target India. You must be blind not to notice that Singh has made efforts recently—not huge but bit different—all point to sincereity. This includes his going to Kashmir and giving a speech, offer to separatists for talks in Delhi (but they wated pak involved and India in these talks allowed that too), India offering Indian Kashmiris surrendering arms—even if they are in Pakistan– and joining mainstream. Have you wondered what Pakistan has done other than shouting “core issue” not going with Mushy’s plan which BTW is what you want soft borders and Pakistan does not want to go with that. But you are such hate filled that reason is beyond you.

8. Why you do not support balouch for freedom if you support kashmir’s?

It will be helpful if you comment on this one by one and also check those queries of mine on other blog, specifically asking you to clarify your stand on double standards. If you want to vent your anger, then exclude yourself for speaking for Kashmir cause and consider yourself a hurdle in the cause.

@vegetarian single pasli black Indians.
–This tells your literacy level and a victim of propaganda. In nay case should I call you a meat eating white fat boy? That you are “European looking” raises questions about the arrangments made for this deed?

I can talk your language and I promise with such novelty that you cannot match it. But I will limit it at the blog since the sole purpose of the readers here is to discuss the issues.

@Now to our neighours Iran..who assisted them in taking down the leader of Jundullah maybe little pak co-operation. I wonder if you have better relations with Iran than why in every war Iran has stood behind Pakistan.”
—–Go read what was Iran, Russia and India (and even Turkey) were doing when Pakistan/Taliban/Al-Qaida Alliance was in control of Afghanistan. All were acting against Pakistan/Taliban alliance. Shia Iran does not want Taliban any day nor anyone that supports it.

@ After all millions are refugees were looked after in Pakistan not Inida how many you took?
—Refugees normally move to neighbor country. But still some refugees did come to India. Have you asked yourself despite this help by Pakistan why Pushtoon Afghans—forget about non-Pushtoon Afghans—hate Pakistan? How were they treated in Pakistan?

But you as a Kashmiri keep out of India-Pak thingy or be ready to be labeled as a Pakistani. I do not care what you say at one time if all your statements do not support it.

On side note, you must be having short sighted not to note that even each Indian who has made Indian PM elected but has never been to Kashmir will be part of the Kashmir solution. Public support for Kashmiris or for PM’s stand is what will help the politician solution. Terrrorism on other hand will do the opposite. For you if you are a Kashmiri from POK or anyother concerned for the cause, I’ll tell again to drop your stand for terrorism. This is not only for India but it is a fact that India will not bow to terrorism as a solution to some problem.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 
 

February 28, 2010 Chandan Mitra

“The dialogue of the deaf last Thursday had one clear winner, Pakistan, and one comprehensive loser, India. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh capitulated again and will live to regret it

Last week India talked to ‘Pakistan’ amid much fanfare and media hype. I say Pakistan within quotes because that country cannot be described as a composite nation-state in the conventional sense. And, on issues relating to India, Pakistan is divided into many segments, at least five. First there is the Army, which controls Pakistan’s political, economic and military destiny whether formally in power or nominally in the barracks. Next is the ISI, the all-encompassing superpower in the Pakistani establishment, which functions as a state within the state. Third is Pakistan’s civilian Govern- ment, an insecure entity that has little popular legitimacy, is powerless against the Army and ISI and hopelessly divided within. The fourth consists of jihadi groups, both overground and underground, including the Pakistan Taliban, armed anti-India terror outfits like LeT, its public face Jamaat-ud-Dawa’h, others like JeM that share the same ideology and methodology, and the Afghan Taliban sheltered and nurtured by ISI. Finally, there is a small, elite civil society comprising well-heeled, English-educated socialites, more comfortable waxing eloquent on Indian TV channels when they are not busy sojourning in London. Each is at loggerheads with the other. They do not fuse into a collective entity except, may be, when Pakistan is at war with India.

Given this reality, what Foreign Secretary Nirupama Rao did last Thursday was to talk with the designated representative of one-fifth of Pakistan, namely its civilian Government, the second-most fragile component of the Islamic Republic after its fledgling civil society. No significant outcome was expected and none happened. So, it may well be asked why get agitated over something that predictably did not rise above ‘time pass’?

The Delhi talks may have ended as a non-event but there were disconcerting developments in the run-up while the aftermath too will be no less damaging for India. First, India visibly capitulated for a second time since the grisly 26/11 attack in the face of joint Pakistani and American bullying, the first being the shameful genuflection at Sharm el-Sheikh. There it succumbed to Pakistani bluster by admitting Balochistan in the Joint Statement — a grave blunder that has allowed Islamabad to triumphantly bracket its most disturbed province to counter India’s plea to stop cross-border terror in Jammu & Kashmir.

This time, the brow-beating by Washington was so severe that India scurried to call Islamabad to the table a day after Home Minister P Chidambaram appealed to them to do “something, just something” to progress the 26/11 cases Pakistan has been stonewalling. To add insult to irony, the very day India invited Pakistan to talks, JuD and other assorted terrorists held a rally in the heart of their capital where Abdur Rehman Makki declared that Pakistani farmers were ready to march across the border and “drink India’s blood” if more water was not allowed to flow into their fields.

More water has since flowed down the rivers of Punjab. Apart from Pakistan’s Army chief Ashfaq Parvez Kayani’s cocky remarks against India in New York, its Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi offered a “blank cheque” to China on his visit to Beijing, urging it to become the “third party” and help resolve Indo-Pakistani issues, knowing fullwell how that would irritate New Delhi. As the talks date neared, Hafiz Saeed, mastermind of the mass murders in Mumbai, thundered “Ek Bombay se kya hota hai?” thereby inciting his fanatical killer squads to perpetrate more such acts.

In sum, while we talked to one-fifth of Pakistan, that is its civilian Government, the country’s other components derisively ignored the dialogue — the Army offering to bail out the US from Afghanistan provided India was held in leash by Washington, the jihadis declaring their resolve to intensify the bloodbath, the ISI sheltering and training terrorists to infiltrate across the LoC or strike cities like Pune, and even elements in the civilian Government speaking the language of hate.

Meanwhile India cut a sorry figure, ignored at the Afghan talks in Istanbul, External Affairs Minister SM Krishna made to sit in a second row chair at the London Conference where Pakistani officials strutted around as bridegrooms at a wedding, and rapped on the knuckles by Uncle Sam for hesitating to put out the other cheek for Pakistan to administer another resounding slap. US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton quite candidly acknowledged on the eve of the Delhi talks that the Obama Administration had “encouraged” India to get back into the dialogue mode with its tormentor.

Anyway, judging by the official Indian briefing last Thursday, both countries reiterated their stated positions face-to-face in Hyderabad House. India handed over three fresh dossiers to Pakistan, something that could well have been mailed by diplomatic bag the same way as the last six were sent post-Mumbai but never acted upon. Pakistan raised Balochistan; we said their concerns were baseless. They made a song and dance over river waters; we said the Indus Water Treaty had stood the test of half a century. We mentioned beheading of Sikhs by Taliban; they said ‘very bad, very bad’. We told them about Ilyas Kashmiri and 17 Indian Mujahideen killers basking in the Pakistani sun; they said they would try to find out if that were true. We pleaded with them to restrain the fire-breathing Hafiz Saeed; they lied, saying their laws did not permit action against his utterances.

From all appearances it was a dialogue of the deaf. But we were, clearly, the losers. That’s because we abandoned a cardinal weapon aptly described by BJP leader Arun Jaitley as the “diplomatic option of not talking to a hostile country”. Pakistan’s Foreign Secretary Salman Bashir can go back home and credibly assert he stood his ground and managed to add water and Balochistan on the agenda apart from pressing for a “solution” to the Kashmir issue (by which Islamabad means handing over the Valley to them). Bashir also spent last Wednesday evening confabulating with three separatist Kashmiri leaders although he was frustrated by their insistence on meeting him separately, presumably to run down one another and seek enhanced funding for their respective outfits. Their Foreign Minister can now feel vindicated; he claimed last fortnight Pakistan had succeeded in dragging a whimpering India to the negotiating table.

Watching from the sidelines, the entire drama that played out seemed surreal. It was like a neighbour walking into your house saying ‘You have a lovely lawn. Give it to me.’ You refuse. He slaps you hard and keeps assaulting or insulting you endlessly. Finally, you get so scared you invite him over for tea. He walks in, reiterates his claim and adds a few more items to his wish-list. He has, meanwhile, mobilised the local dada who stands guard, intimidating you further. Obviously you can’t accept the preposterous demands. So he slaps you again and walks out threatening more violence. You cower into a corner, tremulously awaiting the next assault!”

He sounds like he is scared.

Posted by babag | Report as abusive
 

Khuidude:
Thanks for posting the article from Farrukh Saleem, I am aware of the entreprenurial spirit in Indians and that is something to be appreciated. Dr. Farrukh’s article is evident that Pakistanis are also looking towards the positive side of India also and there is a desire to take corrective action when required.
Word of caution though, a country’s greatness cannot be seen by the number of its billionaires, who ever Ambani is does not make any difference, does he know how many farmers commit suicides in India each year? are India and Pakistan free from Polio, AIDS etc, can they cope with any natural calamities? can they feed their hungry and fight disease and poverty. The distribution of wealth must be even in the society, even then its good many Indians are doing good in business. Maybe Pakistan will try to catch up some day.
Secondly you wrote:
“What really offends me, is that you stoop to name calling such as “Black madrasi”, ” stone worshipper”, “animal worshipper”, “idiot”, etc..”
-ok, apart from Idiot, I have never used any of the above word against hindus on this forum. Magic786 is a Kashmiri and what he or his family or people of Kashmir has suffered at the hands of India is a different story. That is where the sentiment is coming from. Though all human beings are created equal and no one is superior or inferior, that is what Islam teaches, brotherhood and equality. Besides more muslims in India than Pakistan, if our relations improve the first thing I would like to do is to visit India and go to the Muslim shrines, to Nizamuddin and Muslim towns. Even I had met muslim friends from hyderabad when i lived overseas, we had a lot in common. Even today as I work in I.T field some of the time I end up talking to someone sitting in Microsoft, HP, IBM call center or tech support in India. But unfortunately issues like Kashmir, water, war, siachin continue to divide us. Who is to blame? think about it. We need to find answers, maybe we have to blame ourselves, our leaders etc. But then when leaders try to negotiate the public retaliates foolishly, so there is a lot of mud slinging and politics going on.

couple of questions by Punjabiyaar
“Who told you the Pakistan is planning Nuclear Missile base in Saudi Arabia ?

Care to share some more info ?”

I have a few links to share:

Saudis consider nuclear bomb (2003)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/sep  /18/nuclear.saudiarabia
“UN officials said there have been rumours going back 20 years that the Saudis wanted to pay Pakistan to do the research and development on nuclear weapons. ”
“Four years ago, Saudi Arabia sent a defence team to Pakistan to tour its secret nuclear facilities and to be briefed by Abdul Qader Khan, the father of Pakistan’s nuclear bomb. ”

On Pakistan planning nuclear base in Saudi Arabia”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_pro gram_of_Saudi_Arabia
“Satellite photos allegedly reveal an underground city and nuclear silos with Ghauri rockets in Al-Sulaiyil, south of the capital Riyadh”

http://wmdinsights.org/I5/ME2_SaudiArabi a.htm
REPORT ALLEGES SAUDI ARABIA WORKING ON “SECRET NUCLEAR PROGRAM” WITH PAKISTANI ASSISTANCE

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Khuidude:
Thanks for posting the article from Farrukh Saleem, I am aware of the entreprenurial spirit in Indians and that is something to be appreciated. Dr. Farrukh’s article is evident that Pakistanis are also looking towards the positive side of India also and there is a desire to take corrective action when required.
Word of caution though, a country’s greatness cannot be seen by the number of its billionaires, who ever Ambani is does not make any difference, does he know how many farmers commit suicides in India each year? are India and Pakistan free from Polio, AIDS etc, can they cope with any natural calamities? can they feed their hungry and fight disease and poverty. The distribution of wealth must be even in the society, even then its good many Indians are doing good in business. Maybe Pakistan will try to catch up some day.
Secondly you wrote:
“What really offends me, is that you stoop to name calling such as “Black madrasi”, ” stone worshipper”, “animal worshipper”, “idiot”, etc..”
-ok, apart from Idiot, I have never used any of the above word against hindus on this forum. Magic786 is a Kashmiri and what he or his family or people of Kashmir has suffered at the hands of India is a different story. That is where the sentiment is coming from. Though all human beings are created equal and no one is superior or inferior, that is what Islam teaches, brotherhood and equality. Besides more muslims in India than Pakistan, if our relations improve the first thing I would like to do is to visit India and go to the Muslim shrines, to Nizamuddin and Muslim towns. Even I had met muslim friends from hyderabad when i lived overseas, we had a lot in common. Even today as I work in I.T field some of the time I end up talking to someone sitting in Microsoft, HP, IBM call center or tech support in India. But unfortunately issues like Kashmir, water, war, siachin continue to divide us. Who is to blame? think about it. We need to find answers, maybe we have to blame ourselves, our leaders etc. But then when leaders try to negotiate the public retaliates foolishly, so there is a lot of mud slinging and politics going on.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

couple of questions by Punjabiyaar
“Who told you the Pakistan is planning Nuclear Missile base in Saudi Arabia ?

Care to share some more info ?”

I have a few links to share:

Saudis consider nuclear bomb (2003)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/sep  /18/nuclear.saudiarabia
“UN officials said there have been rumours going back 20 years that the Saudis wanted to pay Pakistan to do the research and development on nuclear weapons. ”
“Four years ago, Saudi Arabia sent a defence team to Pakistan to tour its secret nuclear facilities and to be briefed by Abdul Qader Khan, the father of Pakistan’s nuclear bomb. ”

On Pakistan planning nuclear base in Saudi Arabia”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_pro gram_of_Saudi_Arabia
“Satellite photos allegedly reveal an underground city and nuclear silos with Ghauri rockets in Al-Sulaiyil, south of the capital Riyadh”

http://wmdinsights.org/I5/ME2_SaudiArabi a.htm
REPORT ALLEGES SAUDI ARABIA WORKING ON “SECRET NUCLEAR PROGRAM” WITH PAKISTANI ASSISTANCE

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Soudi can play a crucial role in south Asia by cooperating with India in many areas like oil and defence. Moreover it is in India’s interest to build strong relations with Soudi.
http://ezinearticles.com/?Virility-Ex-Re view—Does-Virility-Ex-Enlargement-Pills- Really-Work?&id=3476515

Posted by Connorr | Report as abusive
 

@He sounds like he is scared.
Posted by babag

Babag: you sound like you are proud. who is worse–him or you?

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

Umair,

Time & again, you’ve harped about the ‘Muslim world’ & ‘Pakistan’s important place in the Muslim world’. My friend, Pakistanis like you have simply deluded yourselves with these ideas just to stoke your sagging egos. At the end of the day, every country whether Muslim or non-Muslim, Democratic or Communist, rich or poor, is out there for itself & to protect it’s own interests & when we talk about interests, economic interests top that list. As I said earlier, as time goes by & India rapidly becomes an important part of the global economy, countries like Saudi Arabia will increasingly side with India instead of Pakistan. Just being a Muslim nation won’t be much of help to Pakistan if it’s economy is in shambles & the country is surviving on IMF loans & global aid. If Pakistan wants to neutralize India’s effect, it must un-radicalize & educate it’s people & set on it’s own course of economic success & prosperity. In order to that, your military establishment will have to give up it’s fixation with Kashmir & it’s constantly belligerent anti-India stance.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Myra,

For the last two days Ive been trying to add a comment on the “Pakistan, India and the Kabul attack” thread. There is no comment box visible. Is there a problem?

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive
 

Let me ask one question to my idiot friends?

Do you worship snakes, monkeys and idols made out of human hands?

The answer would be -YES-

So its fact than why be offfended??!

Its like saying Muhammed is your last messenger I am not offended at all. Its fact so seeing with my eyes as well as on pictures hindus bowing down to these different shaped idiols including kali mata. Then why are you offended?

Posted by Magic786 | Report as abusive
 

Magic786,

Let me ask you a question:
It has been conclusively established that the prophet Muhammad married Aisha when she was 6 years old & consummated his marriage with her when she joined him in Medina 3 years later, when she was 9. Now, correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t that the definition of pedophilia?
Given your logic in the previous question which you have posed, I hope you won’t be offended with my question. Moral of the story: Don’t throw stones at others & expect roses in return because there are plenty of stones out there for everyone, to throw!
FYI, I’m neither a Hindu nor a Muslim but I respect both religions, as I do my own & others.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

LOL Mortal,

FATWA FATWA FATWA

How dare you point out the obvious?

FATWA FATWA FATWA.

Let me warn you you are entering dangerous ground. The difference between islam that is practiced and every other faith on this planet, is that they have been inculcated with blinders on their eyes. It isn’t what is really written in the Koran, but thats how they have been inculcated. We of every faith or no faith are allowed to question every faith and point fingers and judge based on today’s moral codes.

We have the right to call every faith as garbage and point out the inherent trash that floods these story books. But not Islam. Not only are the so-called believers not allowed to question, but others can be killed for questioning. Let the foolish live their delusions of grandeur however perverse it may seem to the casual observer. If you start to point out the character flaws in the prophet, pedophilia, is the least of his crimes. LOL. Be careful, a hit squad might be approaching your house.

FATWA FATWA FATWA

Posted by khuidude | Report as abusive
 

@khuidude: LMAO! Right on, lemme find a bunker!

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Also Magic,

Your clear ignorance of not just your own faith but every other is so astounding, that I must commend the PA on a job very well done. I would love to give you a discourse on theology and tear every religion apart at its seams. But unfortunately it would be a waste of time. Simply because, you would kill me the moment I tried to breach the iron clad garbage of what you think is Islam and fail to see after all the dissection of every faith, that its nothing but GARBAGE. Each and every one, is GARBAGE meant to appeal to the common man. The underlying truths and morals are virtually identical, the delivery is different.

Just a little tidbit, hinduism has only one god. Every god is a facet of the same one god. The concept is infinity in one. Hindus just spent their energies creatively rather than go on genocidal rampages to convert. The stories were cool enough to appeal, the sword was unnecessary. Understand the concept of soft power. And btw, the concept of the trinity in christianity and the birth of Jesus are actually plagiarized from hinduism. Brahma Vishnu Maheshwar – creator, preserver and destroyer. Seems rather rather similar to father, son and holy ghost doesn’t it. Read the story of krishna for the birth of jesus.

Posted by khuidude | Report as abusive
 

Firstly you have not answered my question? How do you expect me to answer yours a bit unfair there idoit?

First you answer in simple terms – YES-NO- Do you worship hand made idols and bow down to them and ask them for help and even give them milk to drink. In some instances the idol has even drank it NOT!lol….ooohh

Regrads to your question just pop into a mosque if ANY you have left any in India ask the Imam there he will be be able to answer that for you… Please dont bother going to the babri mosque, yes the one idiots brothers and friends destroyed with bare hands. Which shows the tolerance of your religion also shows a free hindu is capeable of destroying mosques and burning churches. Speaks a lot about indian democracy but hopefully clean your mind body and soul and ask the imam.

When you do get it also care to share with us too…If I manage to get to mosque before you will also share with you and I respect your question. Infact glad you asked so I can also clarify what is the logic behind it.

But when does a girl become “balig” – adult – in your eyes… as I know living in England there are girls that are around that age ten just above or less who are pregnanet and have babies. How I know I can see them pushing prams to the job centers… But the reason I mentioned this to inform you that even in 2010 in the most developed countries these things happen and why did it happend long time ago will also share with you.

Posted by Magic786 | Report as abusive
 

Whats wrong with dalits? Why are they not equal to anyother idiot?

Posted by Magic786 | Report as abusive
 

Umair:

@ok, apart from Idiot, I have never used any of the above word against hindus on this forum.”
–True, only you say “idiot” but what a word you learned from Magic ALI! small thing but keep it up if that helps you.

@Magic786 is a Kashmiri and what he or his family or people of Kashmir has suffered at the hands of India is a different story. That is where the sentiment is coming from.”
-Really his family suffered? how do you know? he never said anything like that. This Magic guy is a lost case. I have interacted with kashmiris who have the decency to put across their feelings much gracefully than this guy and there could be an exchange. This guy is a blot on Kashmiris, who I consider are peaceful people—all religions BTW.

Now going by you, I have lost my friends to Pakistani-supported terrorism in Indian Punjab and faced uncertainty of life each day for nearly 15yrs, should I wish Pakistanis die by suicide attackers like from TTP? I don’t. One thing I have known is that one can not justify violence without being hypocrite and liar. I am not at all a non-violent person by all means but I am strong admirer of those who do that. It is the most difficult thing to do and that is why it is rare to see such people. Assuming you are really for Kashmiri cause, think for a minute the support Kashmiris will get from everywhere if they turn to non-violence and say NO to Pakistan-based terror groups. If every day suicide bombers, dying like rats in Pakistan or elsewhere in the world, cannot achieve their goals, bomb blasts in India definitely are no solution for Kashmir. But sure this is a recipe for disaster.

@Though all human beings are created equal and no one is superior or inferior, that is what Islam teaches, brotherhood and equality.”
—This is why I say that the most dangerous element in terrorism are common people like you. They move in gray zones whenever they feel like they take moderate position like your statement above and run away when it is time to condemn violence against certain people. When it is convenient they take typical position of the Muslim brotherhood/world/ummah and worse give silent support to terrorists like LeT although condemning TTP like killers. Not even a single time you here have condemned LeT based terrorism in India. You (may be) did that about Mumabi case/Kasab but lost tongue about the LeT group of which these terrorists are part of. You saying anything will help no one except your own conscious–assuming you are a religious man and know that this violence is no Jihad of Koran.

@Even I had met muslim friends from hyderabad when i lived overseas, we had a lot in common. Even today as I work in I.T field some of the time I end up talking to someone sitting in Microsoft, HP, IBM call center or tech support in India.”
–If you are this concerned have you given a thought that you need to take a stand and justify to yourself that violence in India by LeT the groups which you silently support will kill the family members of your friends. Moist eyes are useless in the absence of a clear stand. Take help of your religion. As I understand, religion is meant to help politics in your country, not politics corrupt the religion and religious people.

@Besides more muslims in India than Pakistan, if our relations improve the first thing I would like to do is to visit India and go to the Muslim shrines, to Nizamuddin and Muslim towns. ”
–Yes make sure that LeT has stopped blowing up people directly or by sleeper cells (you know all this) does not blow up any one since you might be the victim.

You need to keep a hand at your heart and talk if religion does not help. Again if you can justify yourself something without running away that will be great for your own conscious–you seem to be bit decent person, except when I see sudden irrationality. You do not have to go with PA/ISI policies as a person. If you do they will keep on having those failed and negative policies.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

@khuidude/mortal1

Satan has cast a spell on you, how dare you to use your own brain, Some fanatic loser with a divine ambition to meet his 72 virgins is already on his way to blow you up.

Promising sex in afterlife is the most disgusting thing a religion needs for getting and keeping followers.

May be its for the ultimate losers who could not get any in real life.

I sound like Satan isn’t it ?

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive
 

LOL,

Shaving, showering, getting an education, peacefully standing up for your rights and being a good decent human being are just too complicated. Its just too much work to get laid.

Go suicide bomb, and the 72 mythical virgins are going to jump in a mythical bed with you in mythical place called heaven controlled by a mythical power called allah. WOW.

But then if pedophilia and genocidal rampages are looked upon as the path of the virtuous, with the only comeback being that you worship stones and snakes, what better can be expected.

I really need to get to work on my bunker. Mortal got any space for one more?

JIHAD JIHAD JIHAD

FATWA FATWA FATWA

KAFIR KAFIR KAFIR

FATWA FATWA FATWA

JIHAD JIHAD JIHAD

Posted by khuidude | Report as abusive
 

And Magic,

Please change your screen name. Both Magic and 786 are completed forbidden in your religion. If you insist on keeping it, please don’t say a word about islam. I may have to declare a fatwa on you.

Posted by khuidude | Report as abusive
 

@Magic876

——”First you answer in simple terms – YES-NO- Do you worship hand made idols and bow down to them and ask them for help and even give them milk to drink. In some instances the idol has even drank it NOT!lol”

YES Hindus do that and tell me how its different from throwing Stones at stone pillars alias Satan at Mecca ?

If you can see EVIL in stones what cant you see DIVINE in stones. I had asked you this earlier as well but you were dead silent on this. Probably you feared that Fanatics will be after you for using logic.

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive
 

@Magic786

——-”But when does a girl become “balig” – adult – in your eyes… as I know living in England there are girls that are around that age ten just above or less who are pregnanet and have babies. How I know I can see them pushing prams to the job centers… But the reason I mentioned this to inform you that even in 2010 in the most developed countries these things happen and why did it happend long time ago will also share with you.”

A girl need to be above a specific age to carry a healthy child, getting pregnent at age 10 is medically just too risky for mother and child both. This is a proven fact and many islamic nations have a legal marrying age for this.

These things happen in 2010 and will keep happening, but this is not considered RIGHT and there are laws against it. Humans do the mistakes and crimes too.

Now coming back to mohammed, he was no ordinary human but instead a messenger send by god isn’t it. How come he did not know that and joined the party. If a deemed prophet cannot stands against the social ills, whats the use of it. Either he is not a prophet or the people who follow him are plain fools.

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive
 

Guys:

Pahunchi yahan bhi Shaikh wa Brahman ki guftagu
Ab maikada bhi sair ke qaabil nahin raha.
(The quarrel of Shaikh, Brahmin has reached here
Even the tavern is no longer worth a visit!)

–this quarrel makes Reuters no longer worth a visit.

Also:

Iqbal’s:
Ummeed-e hoor ne sab kuch sikha rakha hai waaez ko
Yeh hazrat dekhne main seedhe hain, saade hain, bhole bhaale hain.
(The hope of houris has taught him all he wants to know
The priest merely looks simple, humble, plain, innocent.)

Houris means beautiful virgin girls.
How right was OSHO who asked his followers to get over this curiosity for sex by having it than curbing it and move on to do constructive stuff. I see destruction and killing of innocents by Jihadis in the hope of sex. People justify sex crazy fanatics as Jihadi. How peaceful!

Ghalib’s:
Kahan maikhana ka darwaza Ghalib aur kahan waaez
Par itna jaante hain, kal wo jaata tha ke ham nikle.
(Where is the tavern door, Ghalib, and where the priest!
But this I know: yesterday he entered as I was leaving.)

Daagh’s:
Zahid sharaab peene de masjid mein baith kar
Ya wo jagah bata de jahan par Khuda na ho.
(Priest, let me sit and drink inside the mosque
Or tell me that place where God can’t be found.)

This one seems like Guru Nanak Dev’s story. During one of his journeys, when he was tired and was sleeping in a mosque, a Mullah was angrily asked him to shift his direction so that his feet do not face kaaba since that is a sacrilege. He asked Mullah to shift his feet in the direction where GOD is not there.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

Beautiful rajeev. This crazy concept of a higher power, with foolish interpretations of his rules has brought so much hate and discord. But the fact of the matter is, it was a concept created to unite people and bring them along a fold with norms acceptable by a majority of society. Rather than religion change with changing nature and structure of society, we are witnesses to a society forced to remain in the stone age, due to a bad interpretation of religion.

Posted by khuidude | Report as abusive
 

@ Magic786: “But when does a girl become “balig” – adult – in your eyes… as I know living in England there are girls that are around that age ten just above or less who are pregnanet and have babies. How I know I can see them pushing prams to the job centers”

Your lack of intellectual capacity isn’t lost on this blog as you’ve graced it one stupid comment after another but this one takes the cake. So there are 10 yr old mothers strolling around the streets of UK? LMAO! So, I guess UK must be a pedophilia haven with girls having super-human biological powers to be delivering kids at that age. FYI, in most civilized countries, having sex with girls below the age of 18 is considered as ‘statutory rape’ even if it’s consensual.

@ “First you answer in simple terms – YES-NO- Do you worship hand made idols and bow down to them and ask them for help and even give them milk to drink. In some instances the idol has even drank it NOT!lol….ooohh”

I haven’t answered your question because I don’t know the answer & frankly I don’t wanna know either. I believe that religion is a very personal & private matter & whether a person finds his/her faith in a stone, tree or a snake is no one’s but that individual’s business. You, me or anyone, has no right to question or mock someone’s faith because at the end of the day God is one despite the different names given and by insulting someone else’s faith or religion, you are actually insulting God. It’s as simple as that but maybe you’re just too bigoted, hateful & moronic to get this into your thick skull.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 
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