Keeping Kashmir secret

March 5, 2010

srinagar cricketAccording to Richard Holbrooke, there is a place in the world so secret, so taboo, that even the special envoy of the most powerful country in the world dare not speak its name.

Here is what he said at a briefing earlier this week,  according to the State Department transcript:

“Now, on the larger issue, let me just make a general comment about this. This is my own personal feeling about these three countries -– Afghanistan, Pakistan, and India. The three countries are vastly different in culture, socioeconomic standing, political development, and – but they share a common strategic space. And in order to understand America’s policy and America’s policy dilemma, one has to understand that both India and Pakistan have legitimate security interests in the region.

“And I’m not talking about that certain area between them which I’m not going to mention by name. (Laughter.)”

Just so that we remember that this ”certain area”  is actually a place with real people living in it, I’m posting a photo of street cricket in the Kashmiri capital Srinagar. Here is a link to one of the main newspapers in Kashmir. Here is a BBC map with various solutions to the Kashmir dispute . Here are links to United Nations Security Council Resolutions on Kashmir.  And for  good measure, here is a link to the 19th century poem Lalla Rookh  –admittedly written by a poet who had never been there but who nonetheless acknowledged its existence with the words ”Who has not heard of the vale of Cashmere?”  

Holbrooke continued:

“I am -– because I am not going to get involved in that. And people who have advocated that are making a proposal which I believe runs counter to stability in Afghanistan. Afghanistan must be dealt with on its merits.”

Ok. But again let’s just remember that this idea of easing tension in Afghanistan by trying to resolve Kashmir was advocated by his boss, then presidential candidate Barack Obama, back in 2008.

As discussed in this post, time has moved on and the argument that the road to Kabul lies through Kashmir makes little sense when you compare the time this would take against the 2011 deadline set by Obama for starting to draw down troops.

But as a point of principle, is it enough to allow Holbrooke to reduce Kashmir to an elision at a briefing, without requiring the U.S. administration to explain this decision in public? The insiders would tell you they know already — India lobbied hard against having Kashmir included in Holbrooke’s remit and he has reportedly vowed never to use the “K” word. But what about the public who might want to hear it for themselves?

Meanwhile, Indian opposition leader L.K. Advani is accusing Prime Minister Manmohan Singh of planning a secret deal on Kashmir

(Under then president Pervez Musharraf, Pakistan and India held secret talks which sketched out a road map for peace in Kashmir, but which reached a dead end when the former general become embroiled in political problems at home which eventually forced him out of office. This, as far as I’ve been told, was never an actual deal, but more like a set of principles rather like the Oslo Accords between Israel and the Palestinians which left a great amount still to be agreed or contested, and which had the additional weakness of being secret and therefore without public approval or support.)

So it looks like one way or the other, the question of Kashmir is going to be forced out into the open.  Perhaps it’s time Holbrooke dropped his resistance to naming it.

Comments

Maybe Mr Singh should also let the Saudi King know his feeling regards to the Madrasa education. Since it were the Saudis who introduced Wahabism in Pakistan and also funding of the madrasas…

There can NOT be peace till India comes clean without any hidden agendas nor pressurised by uncle Sam. To sit on table not only convey their message of displeasure and back it up with eveidence and NOT in Marathi please. But also admit that Terrorism is NOT only Pakistan problem. Its the whole Global problem… since most idiots are trying there best to portray Pakistan as the main source Pakistan had nothing to do IRA…They bombed London, Manchester but NEVER laveled terrorists. They werent exactly thrown flowers at civilains were they so why not also label them as Terrorist even better as Christian Terrorists. But nah there is NO such thing as Hindi terrorist or Christian terrorist or even Jew terrorist even tho they are first one to start all this terrorism.. When the bombed the British in

Posted by Magic786 | Report as abusive
 

Maybe Mr Singh should also let the Saudi King know his feeling regards to the Madrasa education. Since it were the Saudis who introduced Wahabism in Pakistan and also funding of the madrasas…

There can NOT be peace till India comes clean without any hidden agendas nor pressurised by uncle Sam. To sit on table not only convey their message of displeasure and back it up with eveidence and NOT in Marathi please.

But also admit that Terrorism is NOT only Pakistan problem. Its the whole Global problem… since most idiots are trying there best to portray Pakistan as the main source, Pakistan had nothing to do with IRA…They bombed London, Manchester but NEVER labelled terrorists. They werent exactly thrown flowers at civilains were they so why not also label them as Terrorist even better as Christian Terrorists. But nah there is NO such thing as Hindu terrorist or Christian terrorist or even better Jew terrorists. Even tho they are first one to start all this terrorism.. When the bombed the British in Jeruslame forced whole of Palestinians out of there lands because God promised them this land my foot!

Since the world belongs to God, why certain piece and so on but thats another story. Sticking to our idiotic neighours… You want PEACE than simple solve the problems that are the causes of all these misadvetures from both sides…

Sort the Kashmir issue first and formost…Its time for third party to get involved since both sides simply through rubbish allegation and over. If they had the WILL on both sides we would have seen it solved. India thinks by keeping the Occupation the Kashmiris will get worn out meanwhile Pakistan is starting to almost dismantle so therefore it favours India NOT to talk.

Before idiots start saying Simla accord it will be solved billaterly but than after six decades if it hasent than what hopes do the kashmiris have? To live under the Occupation or pick up the gun?! Which they forced to do NOT too long ago but have to admit with Pakistan backing and some hope of peace and Mr Singh also sounding that he wants to establish long term peace in the region.Ho wcan we be at peace if the core problems the Bigger meighor does not even want to talk lets “talk baout talks”…

Grow up! Before its too late another uprising occurs…

Posted by Magic786 | Report as abusive
 

Idiots always bring up the genocide of Bengalis… Firslty this happened before I was even born but yes reading the facts and articles as well as videos. I admit Pakistan Army did terriblle things similar to what the Indina OCCUPATION forces are doing right now in Kashmir. To rape the locals women, kill the young once and claim he was terrorist so on even though all they are asking for is freedom. Kashmiris are asking that from Indian and Bengalis wanted that from West Pakistan as Najeeb did win the elections and that was the catalyst.

As a true enemy that India is jumped on the band wagon possibly most likely commityed more crimes on beaglis and labeled Pakistan they were the one who did it. But NO excuse also for the Pak army as the killed felloe muslims so the fauly is the General at that times NOT me and so on.

But thats Pakistan and Bangladesh problem….who kncked on idiots cage? BUt than they are also entitled to there opnions so fair enough…

India OUT of Kashmir and some of my neighours who are day dreaming by saying Kashmir is integral part of India… yep part of india since you occupied it prior to that it was simply Kashmir. Where all kashmiris lived side by side in harmoney beside what you believed so on…

Posted by Magic786 | Report as abusive
 

Magic786—the Genius,

You are becoming even more incoherent.

Look genius, Kashmiris are our brothers, as reflected by Indian stand that they are integral part of India. Quite different from Azad Kashmir, which is anything but Azad.

@Idiots always bring up the genocide of Bengalis… Firslty this happened before I was even born but yes reading the facts and articles as well as videos.”
—-Bengalis must thank that you were not in Pakistani Army.

@I admit Pakistan Army did terriblle things similar to what the Indina OCCUPATION forces are doing right now in Kashmir.”
—-That sounds like a little slap at the butt of a serial rapist but again using Indian TADKA. Such feeble displeasure over millions raped and dead. Wow!

Then in the next breath you say that it were the Indians who did all that.
“”"”As a true enemy that India is jumped on the band wagon possibly most likely commityed more crimes on beaglis and labeled Pakistan they were the one who did it.”

You continue your flip-flop-flip-flop game by again switching to:
“But NO excuse also for the Pak army as the killed felloe muslims so the fauly is the General at that times NOT me and so on.”"

I have no idea what you want to say. Be loud and clear.

What happended to all that list of questions on Kashmir? It is 11th time I am asking you. Clearly, you do are not interested in Kashmir.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

Magic 786 says:

“Idiots always bring up the genocide of Bengalis… Firslty this happened before I was even born but yes reading the facts and articles as well as videos. I admit Pakistan Army did terriblle things similar to what the Indina OCCUPATION forces are doing right now in Kashmir. To rape the locals women, kill the young once and claim he was terrorist so on even though all they are asking for is freedom. Kashmiris are asking that from Indian and Bengalis wanted that from West Pakistan as Najeeb did win the elections and that was the catalyst. ”

–>You want to call us idiots, I can call you brain dead idiots, especially you. You want to talk about rape buddy, your Army received official state orders to rape women from little girls to old women and they were systematically raped by your army men, en mass in shockingly huge numbers, not like the sproadic raping by the few filthy Indian soldiers, I mean organized mass rapes, this is all documented history.

Some Kashmiri separatists, the brainwashed ones, think that they will fare better as muslims being with Pakistan, because it is muslim, they are wrong, Pakistan is a racist society, especially towards those who are not Sunni muslims.

Indian army is not committing genocide in Kashmir, it is there for security purposes, it has been there since the 80′s and yes, due to the Pakistani state agencies fomenting terrorism, brainwashed and innocent Kashmiris have died and been raped, that is unfortunate, but a reality when a large footprint of armies are deployed to protect territorial integrity from proxy terrorism caused by Pakistan. You see…if you Pakistanis had not started proxy wars on Indian Kashmir, Kashmiri’s would not be suffering, because there would be no Indian army needed there to protect India from your State, ISI and Army trained proxy terrorists.

I believe it was always the intention of Pakistan to wage a proxy war against India and blame all collateral damage and point fingers at India, when in fact Indian ARmy shouldn’t even be there, had it not been for Pakistan fueling, supporting, training and army Kashmiri militants, there fore Kashmiri’s in India suffering is YOUR FAULT.

On the genocide note, you Pakistani’s genocided 3 million humans in almost 9 months, that makes it the most concentrated genocide in human history, bar none. Kashmiri casualties, unfortunate as they are do not even compare.

The target of the genocide were mostly hindus and 10 million refugees poured into india, fleeing the genocide from the Pakistani ARmy.

I do not believe that there are 10 million refugees flowing out of Kashmir into PoK.

For your ignorant and brain dead mind, you should know the definition of genocide:

wikipedia:

“Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group.”

Muslims are generally thriving in kashmir and they are not being systematically singled out and exterminated.

On the issue of rapes, you don’t care less for rapes any how, look how Pakistan treated Muktara Mai, much to the embarassment of Pakistan, the entire world saw it all, we need not go into details, there is hundreds of Muktara Mai’s in pakistan daily, so do you Paks really care more about kashmiri women? ….no I don’t think so.

So please do not pour salt on the wounds of Bengalis, the genocide by the Pak Army of 1971 is an unforgettable systematic state organized mass murder on a grand scale, the bengalis will never forget and neither will the world.

Again, you are a holocaust denier. Holocaust deniers do not deserve a voice.

If India wanted to crush the muslims in Kashmir, they would have long ago, the truth is, the Indian army is there to maintain law and order and most muslims carry about their daily lives, in prayer, work and taking care of the families and don’t really care to be with a poor, destitute and backwards country like Pakistan, they can fare 10x better in India, living with muslims, hindus, sikhs, and any other religion. It is true, there are those, who are uneducated, brainwashed, those who have idle time, those who just need a mission in life, those who need to belong, those who have poor self esteem that engage in separatism, in a needless and useless way are only being used by Pakistani proxy army assets to cause trouble.

The Indian army is there, because illegal acts by Pakistani proxy armies, frankensteins of the Pak Army and the security situation is a direct result of Pakistani fueling terrorism into India.

Therefore the suffering of kashmiri’s is the direct fault of Pakistani itself, end of story.

You stand silenced.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

@It is a very contentious issue, one time freedom fighters all over the world were termed as terrorists. To the white racist regime of South Africa, Nelson Mandela was a terrorist. To his people Mandela was a freedom warrior.”
–Umairpk

—Lovely! LeT as Kashmir’s Mandela. lol. Is it a complement to LeT terrorist Kasab or an insult to Mandela? Kleshnikov totting Mandelas of Pakistan!!!!!

I have not heard that freedom fighters hide themselves by dissociating themselves from an act of violence which they do during their freedom struggle.

Do Kashmiris a favor: Leave them something dignified to write in their history books than construct a pack of lies like Pakistan does for history in schools.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

Mr. Imbecil:

“Idiots always bring up the genocide of Bengalis… Firslty this happened before I was even born but yes reading the facts and articles as well as videos.”

If Bangladesh does not matter because it happened before you were born, why does Kashmir matter whose division happened even before the birth of Bangladesh?

“I admit Pakistan Army did terriblle things similar to what the Indina OCCUPATION forces are doing right now in Kashmir. ”

The two are not the same. In East Pakistan, the Pak military lined up all political activists, intellectuals, writers, teachers, professors etc and shot them dead in cold blood. It tried to subjugate the population by inducing terror. Soldiers went on a rampage with no accountability to anyone. They preyed on women and killed indiscriminately. There was a massive exodus of refugees towards India.

In Kashmir, Pakistan trained and sponsored militants enter with cover provided by the Pakistani Military, into Indian side of Kashmir. If they manage to sneak through, they find shelters amongst their sympathizers who are sustained by Pakistan. Then they attack public places that invites the security forces to counter it. They run back and hide into the population which feels threatened to expose them for fear of reprisal. The soldiers get frustrated and on more than fifty percent of times end up targeting the wrong people. This is the aim of Pakistan. Create havoc, frustrate the Indian security forces, force them to commit blunders, use propaganda to amplify everything, raise propaganda, marches, riots and what not. This brings in more security forces to control the situation and Pakistan injects more terrorists who are mostly from their Southern Punjab province. The purpose is to create tension and alienate the local population from the rest of India. And Pakistan was succeeding in it quite well until 9/11 happened.

So India did not send in its military to teach Kashmiris a lesson so that they dare not rise. India’s goal was to contain the militancy and counter Pakistan’s proxy war in Kashmir. That is why there is no exodus of millions of refugees from Indian Kashmir into the glorious land of milk and honey called Pakistan. The only exodus has been that by the Hindu Pundits who were threatened and massacred by the Pak sponsored militants.

Get your facts clear. What Pakistan did to East Pakistanis has no comparison. What India is doing is very similar to what Pakistan is doing in South Waziristan – to contain unrest and bring the rule of law.

“To rape the locals women, kill the young once and claim he was terrorist so on even though all they are asking for is freedom. Kashmiris are asking that from Indian and Bengalis wanted that from West Pakistan as Najeeb did win the elections and that was the catalyst.”

See the above. We know what is propaganda and what is not. So scream as much as you want. No one cares. You cannot shake India by violent means. And it is not Najeeb, Mr. Imbecile, it is Mujeeb. Tell your Madrasa teacher to read up for himself first.

“As a true enemy that India is jumped on the band wagon possibly most likely commityed more crimes on beaglis and labeled Pakistan they were the one who did it.”

Yeah, Yeah! Twist everything to suit your view point. Again, nothing’s going to change so long as your mind is warped. Indians do not want to make any deals with people with warped minds. Your words are clear evidence of that.

“But NO excuse also for the Pak army as the killed felloe muslims so the fauly is the General at that times NOT me and so on.”

It doesn’t matter. Just like you accuse all of India for even constipation problems of Kashmiris and Pakistanis, it does not matter if your general committed atrocities or your whole nation did it. The fact is Pakistan committed atrocities and paid the price for it. It has not learned any lesson so it is going to pay for its arrogance once more. This will be big this time.

“But thats Pakistan and Bangladesh problem….who kncked on idiots cage? BUt than they are also entitled to there opnions so fair enough…”

So Kashmir is India’s problem. Why does Pakistan care? Why can’t Pakistan spend its money and resources on education, hosptials and nation building? Kashmir was never a problem until Pakistan sent its war hardened militants into the valley in 1989. So take them back and bury them in your holy land. Kashmir will be peaceful and life will move on.

“India OUT of Kashmir and some of my neighours who are day dreaming by saying Kashmir is integral part of India… yep part of india since you occupied it prior to that it was simply Kashmir. Where all kashmiris lived side by side in harmoney beside what you believed so on…”

You are not a Kashmiri. From your words it is very clear that you are a Pakistani and you go back and take care of your wonderful nation that is falling apart. You cannot push India around. Understand that reality and get a life.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@Magic786

You know Magic, your life to me is equally important as mine, whether you are muslim, christian, hindu or Sikh, or whatever.

It comes back to the same thing, you Pakistani’s have no remorse, no offically acknowledged statement of the genocide of 1971, curiously silent and on top of that you have the nerve to compare 80,000 Kashmiri’s to 3million genocided Bengalis and try to pass it off as some sort of equal statement, not to diminish those poor Kashmiris who were killed or raped.

It just seems and feels that kaffirs’s lives are worthless to you Pakistani’s at least the educated ones with computers who frequent this blog.

There is a fundamental lack of human compassion at the core of the Pakistani psyche towards non-muslims and non-sunni muslims. This is truly dangerous and in some cases, definitely racist and bigotted, if not evil.

You have no care of the 50,000 hindu pundits that were killed by muslims and those hindus that have dwindled from 15% to 2% in Pakistan since partition.

Please answer me, are the lives of non-muslims worthless, or just less than a muslim, please tell me how many hindus it takes to equal a muslim life?

Don’t have an answer? Well, my answer is that they are equal in every respect before the law, all man made laws and before God. I don’t think you have the courage or the bxlls to give an answer, and you will be silent.

May God bless ANY humans that suffer at the hands of aggressors.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

Indian friends accuse me of supporting LeT, and that ISI is a supporter of LeT.
Ok, here are the facts, first comparison of Nelson Mandela and LeT, Nelson Mandela belonged to ANC (African National Congress) its leaders in exile during 60s and 70s waged guirella warfare with AK-47s against the SADF (South African Defence Forces). In Zimbabwe (then Rhodesia) the ZANU-PF rebells fought in the Rhodesian Bush wars against the white minority regime, these were armed struggles of independence, with leaders as Robert Mugabe and Nelson Mandela either exiled or behind bars. I don’t know if you can compare any of Kashmiri sepratist leaders with Mandela and sorts.
Now with ISI supporting LeT, total non-sense. TTP is on the other hand being supported by India via Afghanistan. Indian Army machine guns were found from the caves in waziristan being supplied to Taliban rebels. ISI has taken direct hits, Pakistan Army HQ attacked, ISI bus bombed, regional HQ bombed. So it is clear even with the recent arrests of senior Afghan Taliban leaders and Al-Qaeda leaders from urban cities in Pakistan. Pakistan is throwing its weight behind the US and allies, in the way suffering casualties. Its only Indians calling LeT being supported by Pakistani state.

Guys, there is a problem in Indo-Pak relations we need to sit down and talk. Otherwise carry on the blame game and talk; my missile is lethal than yours, my missile can fire longer range than yours. Until both nations grow up to the point of owning their mistakes, confronting their differences and talking too often. There is no hope for us and our future generations for a durable peace.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

GW:
“It just seems and feels that kaffirs’s lives are worthless to you Pakistani’s at least the educated ones with computers who frequent this blog.”

-Let me translate a verse from the Holy Quran:
-A person who saves one human life is equals of saving the whole humkanity. A person who takes one human life equals of killing the whole humanity.
Sorry, you never tried to learn about Islam and no muslim probably including me ever sincerely tried to present you what Islam truly stands for. Do some of your own research rather than asking questions from others find your own answers. Probably you can find truth.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk:

Root cause for Kashmir problem? Pakistan violated the Kashmir sovereignty by unprovoked tribal invasion in Oct22nd 1947. Had that not happened, Kashmir would have been free and Kashmir Raja would not have asked formal intervention of Indian Army. Magic786 would have been a pain in the as$ in free Kashmir not in Azad Kashmir.

Why LeT has emerged? LeT is Pakistan terrorist organization killing Indians including Kashmiris and are serving as political tool of Pakistan meant for revenge against India for 1971. The guys are Pakistani Punjabi youngmen, fed with a distorted version of Jihad, promised 70+ virgins in heaven and unleashed across the LoC. These men have no idea what Kashmir culture is, never stepped in Kashmir before picking up the gun and believed ISI’s as prophet’s words. Kashmir struggle has been lost by demographic shift accompanying this militancy. Kashmiris are now out of picture as far as Kashmir struggle is concerned, having no say in it; it is all Pakistan-run business now. Moderate Kashmiri leaders willing to talk to India have been killed in the past, Kashmiri militants who do not align with pakistan’s policies on Kashmir have also been killed. This is all in the name of so-called Kashmir cause!!!

It will keep on like this until remittance economy Pakistan’s money pot with a huge hole in it runs dry or fresh penny flow is stopped. It all can change for better when India gets the idea that Pakistan accepts them as state actor and stops their support. Then India can sits with Pak sit to fix the problems. Singh already said India will go extra mile for this. He did that with Bangladesh recently over B’desh promising not to support any anti-India terrorist operating from their soil. if not, wait till Kingdom come for solution.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

Punjabhi Gandhi’s wisdom:

“Now with ISI supporting LeT, total non-sense. TTP is on the other hand being supported by India via Afghanistan. Indian Army machine guns were found from the caves in waziristan being supplied to Taliban rebels.”

It is easy to buy Indian ammunition from black market or label ammunition with Indian manufacturing imprint and hide everything. The CIA did this to the Russians during the war against them in Afghanistan. They worked with Egypt and manufactured weapons licensed by the Russians to Egypt and shipped them to Zia Ul Haq. This way the Russians could not accuse the Americans of any direct involvement. The world knows the wily tactics of the ISI and Pak military. Wolves in sheep skin can never hide. There is not an iota of proof that India is involved in any sabotage inside Pakistan. It should, from now on. That will accelerate the collapse of Pakistan.

“ISI has taken direct hits, Pakistan Army HQ attacked, ISI bus bombed, regional HQ bombed. So it is clear even with the recent arrests of senior Afghan Taliban leaders and Al-Qaeda leaders from urban cities in Pakistan.”

That is because Pakistan bred this monster inside its belly. It is unable to get out and wreak havoc. So it is eating Pakistan’s own guts. So enjoy it while it lasts.

“Pakistan is throwing its weight behind the US and allies, in the way suffering casualties.”

No. Pakistan created the monster. It preserved it inside its borders when the ignorant Americans showed up and drove them out. They tried to wait out the Americans and make money at the same time. But a smart President came to office in Washington and he knows exactly what is going on. So the pressure is hurting Pakistan from within. Too much gas has accumulated inside Pakistan’s guts and it is causing tummy ache. So Pakistan is releasing gas when no one is looking and blaming the others for that smell.

“Its only Indians calling LeT being supported by Pakistani state.”

Yeah, LeT is made up of Red Cross volunteers who pray everyday for world peace. Everyone other than Pakistanis are calling LeT a terrorist organization and they are freely operating inside Pakistan. Stop looking outside all the time, turn around and take a look at the inside of your country first.

“Guys, there is a problem in Indo-Pak relations we need to sit down and talk.”

Talk to whom? Umair? You can solve all problems? Who is running the show in Pakistan? Your military? Zardari? Gilani? Qureshi? Rehman Mallik? ISI? Hafeez Saeed? Who is calling the shots in Pakistan. Each one is saying his own thing. Who is in charge? First make that clear and then one can talk about talks. India-Pakistan relationship is of no one’s interest. India has no interest in Pakistan. It is Pakistan that has been an irritant. So if you guys stop doing what you are doing and mind your own business, we will mind ours. You got yourself a nation. Go do something about it. We have no interest in what you do and how you do it. Keep it all to yourselves and we will not bother you. There is no need for any talks. You stay where you belong and we will do the same.

“Otherwise carry on the blame game and talk; my missile is lethal than yours, my missile can fire longer range than yours.”

Your country is small in every way compared to ours. You simply cannot play catch up with us. Our priorities are different. We make no comparisons with your country. It is your countrymen who are desperate to achieve parity even if they have eat grass. So keep eating grass. We never invited you to any competition. This is something you brought upon yourselves because of your big bloated arrogance. So look at yourselves and try to catch up with countries like Iran, Bangladesh, Malaysia etc which are similar in size and resources to your country. We belong to the bigger league and we are already playing there. You focus on your little league.

“Until both nations grow up to the point of owning their mistakes, confronting their differences and talking too often.”

We have not made any mistakes. So start counting your mistakes and see what you can do to avoid them in the future. That is all you have got before time runs out. We have enough things to worry about and the only mistake we have made are treating your country with respect.

“There is no hope for us and our future generations for a durable peace.”

Good realization. Tell that your countrymen. There is absolutely no hope for Pakistan. For generations to come you guys are going to be on a frying pan. So do something and stop itching others.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@Indian friends accuse me of supporting LeT, and that ISI is a supporter of LeT.”
-Umairpk

—Accuse you? You do upport LeT. You think I call you peaceful and can justify your stand if you support someone that blows up Indians, including Kashmiris. It is a different qn that you call LeT as non-state actor, whatever that means. What does non-state means anyways?

Mandela Qn:
Mandela was non-violent like Gandhi and took up arms as a better alterantive later on. He is not a less admirer of Gandhi. LeT will be called Mandela if LeT was ever a non-violent army like Khudai Khidmatgaar of Badshah Khan, powerful pathan army without arms (traitor to you). LeT is people brainwashed to kill kaafir and have no connection with real cause of Kashmir. Do not confuse them with Kashmiris or Mandela.

@ I don’t know if you can compare any of Kashmiri sepratist leaders with Mandela and sorts.”
—India can talk with separatists who are non-violent but they are controlled by Pakistan which still is OK as long as terrorists are not in picture. The problem is Pakistan’s terrorism by LeT (as simple example and leaving other groups) not allowing any person willing to sit and talk.

@ Let me translate a verse from the Holy Quran:
-A person who saves one human life is equals of saving the whole humkanity. A person who takes one human life equals of killing the whole humanity.”
—I have heard this before from you. So what does that has to do with you? While the verse is great, how can citing a verse tells us that you practice it. Each time a chance comes up you act opposite to this verse. Muslims who put this into practice do not have to cite it or will have to say Islam is beautiful.

@ Until both nations grow up to the point of owning their mistakes, confronting their differences and talking too often. There is no hope for us and our future generations for a durable peace.”
–very forward looking statement this one! Leaders will sit whenever it happens. We are talking about posters like you and me talking some common sense and the stand they take. No one is a policy maker (probably) but not telling lies here will save everyone’s time and finally each voice counts. Saying LeT has nothing to do with Pakistan is a lie. Expecting Indians not to be religious fanatics and you do a vanishing act when asked to explain your stand is not common sense. Supporting anti-India violent groups as policy and expecting Indians to label you peaceful and a religious man for few verses you type is not going to happen.

@Now with ISI supporting LeT, total non-sense. TTP is on the other hand being supported by India via Afghanistan. Indian Army machine guns were found from the caves in waziristan being supplied to Taliban rebels. ISI has taken direct hits, Pakistan Army HQ attacked, ISI bus bombed, regional HQ bombed.”
—if Indians does this, they must be crazy lunatics. I hope they do not and it just does not make sense in any way except in Rehman Malik and your analysis. So Indian Army machine guns tells Indian involvement in pakistan? Even taliban have access to US military laptops. Do not be so naïve.

Finally India helps or not, Baloch cause is as genuine as Kashmiri causem—not a cent less.

@Whom one could trust:
Indian PM Singh who says Pakistan should quit terrorism as tool and India will go an extra mile and he does not say Kashmir is non-issue. Singh did that with Bangladesh already when Hasina said B’desh soil will not be used against India. He gave lot in return more than she wished.

Pakistan says LeT is non-state actor, means no control over them (contrary to the fact that LeT are Pakistani nationals and Mumbai case is one clear case in this) but India should talk over core issues. I do not know how Pakistan will take care of anti-India terrorism if LeT et al non-state? May be you can explain.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

Hi friends,

Why we need third party to get involved in our land. Tell me frankly, if you have any problem in your home, will you go and ask your neighbourhood man to solve it. Kashmir is internal part of India; even Pakistan doesn’t have any rights to speak about. Instead of looking Kashmir, please try to develop your country. Bomb blasting have became a daily routine activities. There is no future for your country, unless you wake up now.
We will sort our internal problems, please save your country and make South-Asian region as peaceful one.

Posted by Udumalaihero | Report as abusive
 

Umair says:

GW:
“It just seems and feels that kaffirs’s lives are worthless to you Pakistani’s at least the educated ones with computers who frequent this blog.”

-Let me translate a verse from the Holy Quran:
-A person who saves one human life is equals of saving the whole humkanity. A person who takes one human life equals of killing the whole humanity.
Sorry, you never tried to learn about Islam and no muslim probably including me ever sincerely tried to present you what Islam truly stands for. Do some of your own research rather than asking questions from others find your own answers. Probably you can find truth.
Posted by Umairpk

–>Umair, I know those verses well from the blessed Quaran. Unfortunately, your Army does not and neither does your precious strategic depth proxy war assets, ie LeT and Afghan Taliban. It has brought war on innocent India in 1965, 1971, Kashmir Proxy War and Kargil and many other times. How does the holy Quran judge Pakistan, these strategic proxy armies and the way they all acted towards Indians and continue to promise death to Indians?

Please speak sensibly and honestly, no double speaking, no stories and no bull. I got you nailed on this one.

There is not one in Pakistan practicing this verse, perhaps a few, like the Ahmadiyas, but they are a down trodden people, like second class citizens.

You are damn right, we need to talk Umair. You can start by putting all of your guns away, including the hidden ones under the table, the ones straped to your ankles, ie Strategic Proxy war assets.

Blunt and frank honesty must be a part of conversations and coming to terms with ones past is the only way to liberate shame, lies, duplicity and double talk.

The world is thirsting for honesty from Pakistan. True courage and strength lies in honesty. Only then talks can happen.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

If a plebescite is to be given to Kashmiris, then a precedent should be set, a Plebescite should also be given to Balochis and the Pashto Pathan Nation as well.

After all, fair is fair. Pakistani’s should be careful what they ask for, they may get more than they bargained for, Plebescite on Kashmir may precipate disintegration of Pakistan.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

“Dara the fact is they dont need to as they have enought targets in India. Once they have achieved there local objectives only than they will enhance there operation speheres.”

If you have read my comment in context you would have also read what I said there “Most, the vast majority of the population of India condemns their activities most vehemently, and you know it. Now lets hear you say that about your own fundamentalists – state or non sate.”
That is the issue. Not that Indian fundamentalists are innocent angels but that they are openly condemned by the vast majority of Indians and the government. No one takes refuge in calling them state and non-state actors.That is what was being discussed with Umair. Have you heard even one Indian here talk in support of these people? How many Pakistanis here condemn militant activities without giving out pompous excuses of non state actors and the like?

Are you even willing to admit that Islamic militants and their organisations in Pakistan are guilty of the same crimes that you accuse Indian fundamntalists of? Let’s hear you Magic786.

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive
 

@LeT is no different than RSS, VHP Sangh pariwar, Shiv Sena, all these are different sides of the same cion. Do not hide behind curtain come out in open, don’t be a liar hypocrite with double standards.”
—Umairpk

Umair: Let us come out in open. I condemn all Hindu radical groups including the ones which you do not even know and nor their agendas. Shiv Sena targets people like me from North India, just to add to your knowledge. You already know how much I love LeT!!!!

What is your stand. Want to come out in open without ifs and buts. I can give you a lot ifs and buts for Hindu radicals if you get into these games. Let us see you practicing the verse you cited.

I heard you admire LeT as equal to Nelsen Mandela and then also said LeT is no different than RSS, VHP Sangh pariwar, Shiv Sena.

It appears you are saying all these Indian groups are also like Mandela. Good we have a tiny fraction of people like you in India who support these radical groups.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

@Umair: I’ll just respond to one of your statements since other’s have responded to your comments & I don’t wanna be redundant.

@”Its only Indians calling LeT being supported by Pakistani state”

I’ll just refer LeT’s, wikipedia page, for your reading pleasure. Hopefully, that’ll clarify what the world thinks of LeT (not just Indians):

“It was formed in 1990 with the blessings and design of the then Pakistani Army chief General Mirza Aslam Baig and the Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif. The newly formed organization was assured supply of arms as well as veterans left over from the anti-Soviet Afghan War of the 1980s, as well as access to the training camps which were used to train the Afghan Mujahideen in the 1980s.

Most of these training camps were located in North-West Frontier Province (NWFP) and many were shifted to Azad Kashmir for the sole purpose of training volunteers for the Kashmir Jihad. From 1991 onwards, militancy surged in Indian Kashmir, as many Lashkar-e-Taiba volunteers, mostly village youth from Pakistan’s Punjab province, were infiltrated into Indian Kashmir from the Azad Kashmir with the help of the Pakistan Army and ISI. For many years it was no secret that Lashkar-e-Taiba’s second headquarters were at the HQ of the 12th Infantry Division of the Pakistan Army, which was based in Azad Kashmir.

U.S. intelligence officials believe that Pakistan’s main intelligence agency, the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), continues to give LeT intelligence help and protection.[11]“

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

@Do not hide behind curtain come out in open, don’t be a liar hypocrite with double standards.”
–Umairpk

After getting detailed responses to your call to come out in open, where are you now: under the couch or in the bunker….lol

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

slightly off topic

Another lie perpetuated by Pakis busted by their own newspaper. India is not stealing Paki water.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk-kbSKoy Og

Posted by chirkutpappu | Report as abusive
 

Once again, those who pretend to fight for Kashmiri cause and those who worry religious fundamentalism in India and the hypocrisy have vanished into thin air!!!

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

A simple question for my friends in India:
Why would India not agree to an outside mediator on Kashmir: specially when it thinks its case is based on internationally recognized principles?

Posted by Uddin | Report as abusive
 

Simply they dont have any grounds to argue front of international observers…why Kashmir is part of India?

So its best and suits idiots not have someone who can see who wants peace who does not. All their negative tactics exposed but than they go running to saudis to put some kind of pressure on Pakistan… bit of contradiction on one side they dont want except for billateral talks but than when they feel Pakistan not budging till we move from “lets talk about talks”. They have to go and beg in saudi to ask their close friend to stop.

Posted by Magic786 | Report as abusive
 

@A simple question for my friends in India:
Why would India not agree to an outside mediator on Kashmir: specially when it thinks its case is based on internationally recognized principles?
Posted by Uddin

Uddin: Fair question.

1)It is the case of Kashmir, not of India
2)It is UN-based and asking 3rd party does not mean the same.

UNSCR has asked both Pakistan and India to resolve issues peacefully and withdrawal of forces—overt and covert by either side is a natural first step that Pakistan ignores. It will be naive to expect that 3rd party will solve anything. 3rd party interference anywhere is beginning of irreversible new problems without solving the old ones. I am sure you understand that you will not talk to your neighbor for peace if he comes with a gun. It is a reasonable expectation to drop violence before peace can be discussed.

Magic786: I am going to ignore you until you answer my questions on Kashmir (12th reminder to you).

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

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