Keeping Kashmir secret

March 5, 2010

srinagar cricketAccording to Richard Holbrooke, there is a place in the world so secret, so taboo, that even the special envoy of the most powerful country in the world dare not speak its name.

Here is what he said at a briefing earlier this week,  according to the State Department transcript:

“Now, on the larger issue, let me just make a general comment about this. This is my own personal feeling about these three countries -– Afghanistan, Pakistan, and India. The three countries are vastly different in culture, socioeconomic standing, political development, and – but they share a common strategic space. And in order to understand America’s policy and America’s policy dilemma, one has to understand that both India and Pakistan have legitimate security interests in the region.

“And I’m not talking about that certain area between them which I’m not going to mention by name. (Laughter.)”

Just so that we remember that this ”certain area”  is actually a place with real people living in it, I’m posting a photo of street cricket in the Kashmiri capital Srinagar. Here is a link to one of the main newspapers in Kashmir. Here is a BBC map with various solutions to the Kashmir dispute . Here are links to United Nations Security Council Resolutions on Kashmir.  And for  good measure, here is a link to the 19th century poem Lalla Rookh  –admittedly written by a poet who had never been there but who nonetheless acknowledged its existence with the words ”Who has not heard of the vale of Cashmere?”  

Holbrooke continued:

“I am -– because I am not going to get involved in that. And people who have advocated that are making a proposal which I believe runs counter to stability in Afghanistan. Afghanistan must be dealt with on its merits.”

Ok. But again let’s just remember that this idea of easing tension in Afghanistan by trying to resolve Kashmir was advocated by his boss, then presidential candidate Barack Obama, back in 2008.

As discussed in this post, time has moved on and the argument that the road to Kabul lies through Kashmir makes little sense when you compare the time this would take against the 2011 deadline set by Obama for starting to draw down troops.

But as a point of principle, is it enough to allow Holbrooke to reduce Kashmir to an elision at a briefing, without requiring the U.S. administration to explain this decision in public? The insiders would tell you they know already — India lobbied hard against having Kashmir included in Holbrooke’s remit and he has reportedly vowed never to use the “K” word. But what about the public who might want to hear it for themselves?

Meanwhile, Indian opposition leader L.K. Advani is accusing Prime Minister Manmohan Singh of planning a secret deal on Kashmir

(Under then president Pervez Musharraf, Pakistan and India held secret talks which sketched out a road map for peace in Kashmir, but which reached a dead end when the former general become embroiled in political problems at home which eventually forced him out of office. This, as far as I’ve been told, was never an actual deal, but more like a set of principles rather like the Oslo Accords between Israel and the Palestinians which left a great amount still to be agreed or contested, and which had the additional weakness of being secret and therefore without public approval or support.)

So it looks like one way or the other, the question of Kashmir is going to be forced out into the open.  Perhaps it’s time Holbrooke dropped his resistance to naming it.

Comments

Myra:

@Perhaps it’s time Holbrooke dropped his resistance to naming it.”
–Could you explain here for what reason Holbrroke must name K-word? Is he going to find a solution? he could not do for Af-Pak whose envoy he is and you are giving him some extra job that a party does not want him to be around for. 3rd party role is am additional problem not solution. have not we seen US rile in middle east peace already. US will merge all from Kashmir to the other end in one paint and then start linking palestine with Kashmir. Enough of this. I have not seen US solving a thing. May be you know more and could enlighten your readers the compelling reasons for US intervention. good you ruled out Afghansistan solution via Kashmir.

Perhaps you could tell us the status of Azad Kashmir and Pakistan’s policies and the constitution of AK and how it is consistent with Pakistan’s rhetoric. Let us talk with all facts on the table, if we are sincere.

Thanks for the BBC maps. look colourful!

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

Myra,

It seems almost as though you sort of advocate rewarding bad behavior, just so Pakistan can have its way. Kashmir is sovereign Pakistani territory, just like the land in London UK is sovereign. There are the likes of Anjem Chaudhary wantign to convert Buckingham Palace into a Mosque and threatening mass civil mayhem upon British citizens…why dont the British just concede and give up their sovereign land to agitators who want Islamic Rule..sounds absurd? Well it seems that some here want to lobby on the Kashmir issue on behalf of Pakistan, that country that has started so many wars on India, has facilitate 90% of the world’s terrorism, pocketed U.S. Taxpayer dollars and proliferated nuclear weapons for personal profit and yet…you walk the fine line in not saying it directly, but it seems feel that you would not be a stranger to rewarding these sorts of people. I don’t know why the Bengali Genocide, the genocide of 2.5 million hindus and systematic genocide of 60,000 Kashmiri pundits has no mention, NOT ever.

Kashmir can never be discussed until Pakistan owns up and comes to term with all its demons and all cards and knives and guns on the table, yes, even the knives hidden in their socks and the suicide vest TOO. Lastly and most important of all, Pakistan must rid it self completely of all jihadi terrorists, esp those in Kashmir. Frankenstein must be destroyed.

I find it laughable that Pakistan wants a free ride on the Kashmir issue and is trying to use any issue to achieve that, but not willing to face its demons. After all, talking about Kashmir legitimizes and emboldens all of these terrorists and many around the world to keep pushing even harder into the Indian subcontinent.

It is bad enough that the British could not keep occupying it, so is the motto know…let Pakistan take a stab at India?…well that is the grand plan…to attack the Indian subcontinent and re-occupy it..even if it takes hundreds of years to do so, but in reality…that will never happen again..not ever.

Is the west so indifferent and uncaring and uncompassionate of the many ills the Indians have suffered at the hands of Moghuls, the British and Pakistan? Who have we ever genocided or declared war on?…we alway defended ourselves and liberated those from oppression.

The line is drawn here. No Kashmir discussion until Pakistan admits genocides, apologizes, makes amends and outright destroys all terrorist factories, closes madrasas and all terrorist training camps and terrorist groups. No free ride for Pakistan on Kashmir issue, bottom line.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

Typo….Kashmir is sovereign Indian territory.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

May be mr. Holbrooke has been shown a number of evidences by India that are not available to general public and that might have changed his views on the whole thing. I guess Obama saw the same thing and might have decided to focus on real matters instead to find a solution. Kashmir “problem” has been created by the Pak military and sustained in order to avenge the dismemberment of East Pakistan. Some Pakistanis themselves have mentioned it here. Everyone knows that their “sympathies” for Kashmiri Muslims are nothing but crocodile tears. They do not care much for the freedom and rights of Shias, Ahmedias, Balochis and other minorities. They did not life a little finger to condemn China when it decimated the Uighur Muslims. So it is very clear that Pakistani military’s objectives are only to foment and sustain trouble in order to strengthen its grip in the region. It needs an enemy at all times and Mr. Holbrooke probably saw the broader picture. So the American mission has turned its focus on making Pakistani military dance to its tunes and it is paying dividends. A desperate Pak military is gathering up Taliban commanders in order to cover its tracks.American push is working and they see no need to consider the K issue anymore. That is why Pakistan is unleashing Hafiz Saeed to do something in Indian held Kashmir in order to run the mission through “non-state actors.” They are going to burn themselves in that process. K-L bill is being reviewed and auditors are going to come into Pakistan to see how the money is being spent. The US is slowly reducing its reliance on Pakistan. If they can nail Mullah Omar, they are done. Then Pakistan will have to do the chasing as the Taliban will avenge its betrayal. Desperate attempts to deflect it towards Kashmir may not work. Thanks to Mr. Holbrooke and the Americans for their understanding of the reality.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

First of all, no one, but no one, has objected to anyone saying what they like about Kashmir as often as they want to. This is just a man who has long been sidelined trying to get in his two dimes worth and a little attention. Indulge him.

The fact is Kashmir is important to all these guys for one reason and one reason only. It is helping them find a face saving exit from Afghanistan. Blame it on Kashmir, India or anyone else but not on us! All we want to do is go home quietly. That is my brief.

Holbrooke also gave a very pertinent statement two days ago saying that the Kabul attack did not target Indians. This morning he is reported to have expressed regrets over it. Forgive him.

Harping on Holbrooke and I was sure something on these lines would be here, suits those who want to keep Kashmir centre stage. So be it.

His utterances amply justify India’s initial objections to have Kashmir involved in his brief. Where have all the champions who spoke of him in glowing terms of being a tough negotiator, efficient manager and a go-getter disappeared to? Where has this guy been hibernating these last few months? I think he needed desperately to be heard and so said something and got a few laughs and a few lines written about him, before he came down to earth with a big thud.

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive
 

“So it looks like one way or the other, the question of Kashmir is going to be forced out into the open. Perhaps it’s time Holbrooke dropped his resistance to naming it.” Myra

Is Kashmir not out in the open even now? Once the issue went to the UN 60 years ago it has been in the open. Is there a ban on anyone voicing opinions on Kashmir? Perhaps what irks some, is that India does not agree with what they say. As far as I know Holbrooke has not voiced any opinion on how Kashmir can be solved. Or has he? He has just seen it in context of Afghanistan, which is absurd. However, India reserves the right to decide whom it discusses it with. Holbrooke is not going to make it to that list it seems.

As far as the BBC solutions go, I am unable to make out how old this study is. For one it harps on plebiscite, in various forms, which seems quite peculiar to me. It also says that India rejected the plebiscite. I find no word of the fact that it was Pakistan which is in breach of the resolution on holding the plebiscite, by not vacating territory or withdrawing troops. Based on that major mistake on their part I hardly think the plebiscites are any option available anymore.

Again, and this as an Indian, I am just not impressed with how many Muslims, Hindus and Buddhists live in the state. The fact is, if you take that into consideration, you are forgetting that till recently India was home to the second largest number of Muslims in the world. What does that prove? That India is open to all. It’s very existence is premised on the fact that it is a country where anyone can reside, regardless of what they believe in.

I really have not gone through the whole BBC plan, as shown there, in any great detail. However, I do know that in 1962, when Sardar Swaran Singh and a young Bhutto held several rounds of talks, there were some territorial adjustments offered but the talks eventually broke down. In part, I may add, because of excessive behind the scene interference by the British and Americans as indicated by Yezdi Gundevia in his book “Outside the Archives”. He was a member of the Indian delegation.

Though I have my own reservations regarding how the Indian Govt is handling the Kashmir issue and the talks, I don’t think there is much substance to Advani’s charge of secret talks etc. His government was as involved in such talks as this one. As to the Musharraf plan, what I do know is what you once mentioned here a few months ago.

Finally, Myra, I cannot figure out whether the point you are making here is about India being reluctant to discuss Kashmir with everyone, or is it about India not wanting to discuss Kashmir at all?

If it is the first you are right. I also doubt that this stand will change in the near future, if ever.

If the latter you could well be wrong. Kashmir will have to be discussed. It will not, however, be done while the other side holds a gun to India’s head.

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive
 

GW:
“Kashmir can never be discussed until Pakistan owns up and comes to term with all its demons and all cards and knives and guns on the table, yes, even the knives hidden in their socks and the suicide vest TOO. ”

-If you live in a dangerous neighbourhood with gangsters, you need to keep a gun for self defence in person. India dismembered Pakistan in 1971 and went on to detonate a nuclear device in 1974 ‘smiling bhudda’ so-called peaceful purposes. That way Pakistan would have suffered further, so it was necessary for Pakistan to keep guard and not lower the defence against India.

“It is bad enough that the British could not keep occupying it, so is the motto know…let Pakistan take a stab at India?…well that is the grand plan…to attack the Indian subcontinent and re-occupy it”

-Depicts your ignorance, get out of this state of mind and come back to reality. There is no such plan, Kashmir is a dispute and needs to be settled.

“No Kashmir discussion until Pakistan admits genocides, apologizes, makes amends and outright destroys all terrorist factories, closes madrasas and all terrorist training camps and terrorist groups.”

-No settlement of Kashmir means, no peace, more nuclear instability and alter in balance of power, more uncertainty, more insurgency, future Kargils and justification for Jihadis to ‘liberate Kashmir’. Settlement of Kashmir in just manner means peace, stability, certain future, improvement/normalization of relations, no war pact, de-nuclearization of South Asia. The possibilities are endless, a journey of thousand miles begins with a single step. India must admit its genocide and ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri muslims, accept its Army has murdered and raped at will, withdraw from Kashmir and talk settlement. Otherwise status quo will be maintained.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

DaraIndia:
“Kashmir will have to be discussed. It will not, however, be done while the other side holds a gun to India’s head.”

-well, doesn’t make any difference does it? when the whole place will be on fire who would care of holding a gun to another’s head. Throw in another Mumbai style attack, or possible Kargil misadventure, both Armies fixated on each other. Bulk of Indian Army ready to thrust, bulk of Pakistan Army in an offensive mode what could be the result. And unlike the cold war era where there was thousand of miles of territory between Soveit Union and US, India and Pakistan are minutes away from each other.

In short if left unchecked, sooner or later Kashmir will result in another tragedy. The problem needs to be confronted squarely or else the risks are obvious.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk,

What you say here amounts to talking for the sake of talking. Under the situation as it exists, there is no scope of anything worthwhile emerging. Tempers are high, trust is non existent, honesty of purtpose is lacking. Or do you think it is not so?

So what needs to be done first is get to a stage where fruitful and substantive issues can be discussed and probably solved. You can’t get to the top without starting from the first rung on the ladder. We are still both feet on the ground and just about building a rope ladder.

That to me is doing it in a practical manner. Do you believe they will sit down and come out exchanging peace doves and roses right now?

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive
 

“The possibilities are endless, a journey of thousand miles begins with a single step. India must admit its genocide and ethnic cleansing of Kashmiri muslims, accept its Army has murdered and raped at will, withdraw from Kashmir and talk settlement. Otherwise status quo will be maintained.” Umairpk

Genocide and ethnic cleansing of Kashnmiri Muslims? The only genocide was in Bangla Desh in 1971. And it wasn’t India that did it, remember? The only ethnic cleansing was of Kashmiri Pandits from the valley.

Withdraw from Kashmir and talk settlement? When India agreed to a plebiscite and Pakistani troops were expected to withdraw, why didn’t they? The time was then, and a settlement would have been reached. Now you have to work out a settlement, not demand it. No one owes anyone anything, least of all between India and Pakistan. No matter how much you may try to rewrite history.

And you think it is the right time to discuss Kashmir? Which fairy story are you reading at the moment?

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive
 

I forgot the rape and murder at will part. Your propaganda machine has done well. There have been excesses, no one denies it. What you allege here is fiction. Every Pakistani here believes that the Indian army is either killing Kashmiris by the 100s or raping women and some are probably even doing both simultaneously every moment of the day.

I would suggest you read a book “Faultline Kashmir” by Christopher Thomas. He is an Englishman and the book is quite balanced. His accounts of what he has seen in Kashmir are an eye opener. He has recounted an incident when he heard frantic cries of help coming over the loudspeaker of a mosque in Srinagar. When he went in to see what was happening, he says he saw no one in there except the loudspeaker and a tape! I bet Pakistan TV played out the sound bytes over a 100 times that day.

I have said this earlier and i will repeat it here again, because what he has to say on Kashmir is sadly true:

‘for India – “To give up Kashmir would be to deny that Muslims can live peacefully and without discrimination in secular India……This idea of communal live and let live, although betrayed by Hindu extremists, underpins the essential morality of the Indian State and its secular constitution.”

“Pakistan has lost because it is bankrupt, in no small measure because of its vast military expenditure. It has lost, too, because it shattered its own democracy in pursuit of military objectives in Kashmir………The passions over Kashmir blinded Pakistan to the insanity of what it was doing.” ‘

You may scoff at this too, but it is worth checking out facts first before you make wild allegations which only make the situation worse.

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive
 

Look Dara, thank you for suggesting to read ‘Faultline Kashmir’. But I have expereince and have traveled to Azad Kashmir during college days.
http://www.amazon.com/Faultline-Kashmir- Christopher-Thomas/dp/185845316X
this book by Christopher Thomas was written in 2000? Am I correct? That is 10 years old now, even before the Indian Parliament attack and 2001/02 Indo-Pak standoff.
You are aware of recent protests in Indian occupied Kashmir that erupted after the bodies of two women were found and locals accused the Army of rape and murder of the two victims. These things are happening on a daily basis, this is a reality of Kashmir. Still India wants to be world’s biggest democracy, wants a permanent UN security council seat. if you want to claim this, the world will hold you accountable for anyhting which goes wrong in Kashmir/Gujrat etc. Any unsettled disputes will hurt india’s standing.
I understand that Mumbai 2008 attack was tragic, Pakistan too has seen many attacks. But that should not prevent us from finding solutions. even in Pakistan public does not know what to do with India, should we opt for normalization of relations or not. Public mood in India might have gone tough after Mumbai 2008, now compare that to 1971 war and what role India played it made enemies out of a whole generation of Pakistanis. Consider this, official apologies from both countries, some sort of truth and reconciliation commission, make Kashmir autonomous zone with visa free travel, settle disputes. Honesty of purpose is important on both sides, and this is one thing which should only get better with time. In 2001/02 both countries nearly went to war but in 2008 war was not an option. Eventually India and Pakistan (both) will realize war is not an option. No matter how reluctant we are, the only option we have is peace, becuase the war we face will be a total war.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 
 

What does the fact that the book is 10 years old have to do with what I have quoted as written there? That should be the yardstick. It is still pertinent.

You may well have experience. So do I for that matter, that is immaterial to the issue. I have said earlier and I repeat again, excesses do happen but there is also the fact that more often than not corrective measures are taken. And have you followed the investigation regarding the two women? There is more to the whole story than what you have been fed. But my point really is that over 75% of what you quote is based on propaganda that is fed.

As for your grouse about Bangladesh. India helped the Bangla Deshis but Pakistan created the conditions and was responsible for the carnage there. Don’t hold India responsible for the break up….it was more Bhuttos greed. lust for power and the shabby treatment meted out to the eastern wing.

If the book is outdated because it is 10 years old, isn’t your hang over about 1971 even more outdated?

Where I agree with you entirely is regarding honesty of purpose and building trust. All other solutions can wait. This must be first established. That is what will take time and both sides need to show intent and not resort to taking silly pot shots at each other.

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive
 

As for India’s position in the world hierarchy, I am afraid you are talking to the wrong person. As far as I am concerned, I just want India to concentrate in solving its immense problems at home and improve the lot of its citizens. How big or what position it holds in the eyes of outsiders is really meaningless to me personally.

Umair, most Indians have moved way beyond India Pakistan issues and even things like Security Council etc. These are ego massages really. As for being the biggest democracy, it is not a question of wanting to be. It is. Because of sheer numbers.

Whether the world holds India accountable for anything is less important to me than India holding itself responsible and resolving its own issues. So as I said, all talk of Security Council etc etc does not impress me one bit. India’s success in improving the lives of Indians does, and I will take pride in that.

Lastly, let me add that Indians are as repulsed by events in places like Gujrat as they are when they hear people whom they consider murderers being referred to as strategic assets by Pakistan. Both are cancers.

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive
 

Here we go again idots trying to justify OCCUPATION!

What sort of democracy hands the keys for babri mosque to a hardcore hindu….even tho there are more muslims in india more than Pakistan. I guess none of muslims who live in india were either trusworthy enough or capeable of looking after a mosque. So the keys were handed to hardcore hindu like rajeeve so they can tore down the mosque brick by brick with bare hands as witnised by the world and all idiots unless they looked the other way.

What sort of democracy Indian is trying to portray?

Posted by Magic786 | Report as abusive
 

Dont forgett Gujrat… how many of those hardcore hindus have been brought to the courts to face charages… Maybe my idiot friends can enlighten me since they know so much about across the LOC how about your own BIG messy house.

How about Dalits… If you can NOT even give your own hindu brothers equal right and labbel them untouchables than what expectation do the minorties have?

Posted by Magic786 | Report as abusive
 

magic786: What sort of democracy Indian is trying to portray?

India is not trying to portray anything. It is a democracy and not trying to project an image of being a democracy. Be clear on that. It has immense diversity that no other nation has. Diversity ranges in every which way – religion, language, ethnicity, class, culture, caste and so on. There is always a majority based on which one of the above factors is considered. Muslims are not the only ones struggling. There are many others struggling as well. And that is true in every country. There is always some group struggling and is unhappy with the way things go. That does not mean that they should take to arms, start resorting to terrorism, blowing people up and shooting at innocents. If everyone takes the law unto his own hands, chaos will prevail.

The reason India has been a successful democracy, despite the loopholes in it, is because it has not attempt to project itself as one. It simply has been one. It is others like you and your countrymen who have been ridiculing it, while not having any infrastructure for anything in your own country. This is like the street beggar laughing at a house owner that he has a leaky roof. People do not pay much attention to what a street beggar says. But if he starts cornering people and tries to mug them, then they are looked at with caution. Please take a look at Pakistan and it resembles a street mugger.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

World Biggot democracy…

In a country where Churches get burned, mosques gets demolished and even your own hindus brothers in millions are NOT treated equally as they are untouchables. The murderers of gujrat stroll around bombay streets after commiting the most henious crimes in Gujrat.

How can you even try to convince someone that the minorties are safeguarded only few days ago Jesus picture on beer cans. Surely thats freedom of speech yeh.. Whilst they point there fingers at westerly neighour for even if a bird falls from the sky.

Must be ISI hand, even the plane that crashed on the Naval show, good luck with the investigation. Surely you can rule out sucide bombers unless he had rocket burner on his back lol.

Since the blogg is about Kashmir I am glad, “Kashmir is sovereign Indian territory” idiots wishfull thinking or simply day dreaming in the bombay slums…hey wake up.

So the UN, Pakistan, Kashmiris and even the world community are all liars as they all believe Kashmir is a disputed teritory between the two neighours. India is the only one saint which claims whole of Kashmir is theres. Whos got the thick skull not hard to figure out.

When the two countries were carved out the simple rule was used Muslim MAJORITY would form Pakistan. Hindu MAJORITY areas would form India. On that simple rule Kashmir is integral part of Pakistan. Indian can use all there dillectory tactics to convince the world community but if they havent succeded in six decades to convice the world nor even a SINGLE KASHMIRIS I dont think they ever will.

The people of Jammu of Kashmir are part of people of Pakistan. In flesh, geography, history, next of kin, trade, religion and the majority in Kashmir are Muslim. It should have been part of Pakistan but by the traitor hari singh signing a document in haste and without the backing of the population signed something or were forced too. Does not give India right over kashmir but definetly an excuse which it has used for past six decades to oppress and occupy kashmir.

Posted by Magic786 | Report as abusive
 

Magic786:

Let me ask relevant questions on Kashmir. if you are for Kashmir cause—free Kashmir—then you will not hide under the desk.

1. You talk so much about rape and then you love PA. Do you have any idea what the PA has done—–Raped Muslim girls and killed million Muslim and Hindus in E. Pakistan and for long time in Balochistan.

2. Care to explain your hypocrisy when you label Balochi struggle by Baloch people as terrorism and that by Pakistan terrorists for kashmir as freedom fight!!! You are anti-Indian Army and then your voice box fails about PA doing 1000times worse as we speak–raping and doing genocide of Baloch people—says Asia human rights report. Does cat eat your tongue against PA?

http://www.ahrchk.net/statements/mainfil e.php/2010statements/2444

“More than 300,000 people from the province are already believed to have fled into neighbouring provinces or to different parts of the Balochistan due to the ongoing conflict there. Meanwhile, provincial assemblies and regional leaders have learnt the lesson that when the stakes are high, the only diplomacy known to the military and federal government is by way of F-16s and helicopter gunships.”

It might sound harsh, but Indian Kashmir is a day on the beach if you read this. Indian are not using helicopter gunships and F-16 to kill people. Imagine IAF using such weapons. All these pakistani flag by some in Kashmir can be done because people know Indian security will not feed them bullets over this—not such an assurance in pakistan, you hypocrite.

3. You are living in UK. Goof for you and for reality sake read this report on Kashmir in Pakistan.

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2006/pakistan 0906/

“”Pakistan says they are our friends and India is our enemy. I agree India is our enemy, but with friends like these, who needs enemies?—Muzaffarabad resident”"”

4. Care to comment on the statement of ex-Air chief Asghan Khan saying: “The fact is that in the last 60 years of our existence, India has not started hostilities against Pakistan unless provoked to do so, or until we created conditions, as we did in 1971 in East Pakistan, for India to interfere militarily….”

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn -content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/colu mnists/16-ardeshir-cowasjee-wise-words-f rom-an-old-warrior-hs-04

4.. Care to explain how you explain Pakistan gifting Kashmir land to China?

5. Indian Muslims are much better than those Pakis like you and many Pakistanis. you have nothing to do with Gujarat and not you have any idea about Indian Muslims so shut up.

6. We already know the root cause of your hatred. SPDI scholars have done good job at that? you can keep on beating the drum of being an Azad Kashmiri and nothing to do with Pakistan ra ra.. till eternity. You are the last one who could be for Kashmir cause.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

Interesting that my comments get deleted more often than the nonsense being written by some posters here. Is there something deliberately being done to skew the projection of views? My last comment simply disappeared after appearing. There was nothing offensive or abusive in my writing. May I get a clarification from the moderator or writer of this article?

Mr. Magic,

No matter how much you try to paint mud on India, the reality is different and India will remain what it is. Your negative views and propaganda beliefs will not lead to anything. Your country has tried in various ways to engage India and it has made it worse for your country and the people that you support in Kashmir. Your countrymen should realize that coercion and violence are not the means by which you can get anything done. You lost East Pakistan because of that belief, despite East Pakistanis being Muslims in a majority. There are several factors to the equation and if you try to project only religion as the important factor, you will find no solution whatsoever.

Your country itself is being held by brute force and not by the will of its people. Balochis do not want to be a part of your nation. There is no Pakistani writ active in NWFP and Waziristan since 1947. Sindhis and Balochis had to be coerced into submission by military missions. So look at your country first before worrying about Kashmiris or anyone else. Your military has hijacked the nation.

In 1947 Pakistan was created for Muslims. Today it has become a nation created for its Military. There is no Islamic unity or civilian writ anywhere. First fight to get your country out of your military’s control over your rights and your minds. Then worry about anything else. Kashmir is really not that much of a priority for anyone other than the Pak military. Your economy is in shambles. Home grown terrorism to blow up others is beginning explode inside your own country. All you guys are doing is venting these in built frustrations on India and not doing anything to improve yourselves. That will get you nowhere.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Magic786:

Let me ask relevant questions on Kashmir. if you are for Kashmir cause—free/autonomous Kashmir, nothing what you say is consistent with it. You appear absolutely satisfied with pakistan and proud of PA for their contribution to the cause while show anger at India for doing nothing. This is pure hypocrisy and this will take discussion anywhere.

Let us focus on Kashmir and such struggles in this area. Could you tell us:

1. You talk so much about rape by Indian Army (making it sound as if that is what Indian Army does!!!!) and but you love PA, despite knowing that they notorious in this area. Raped Muslim girls and killed million Muslim and Hindus in E. Pakistan and has been happening for long time in Balochistan while you sing songs about PA.

2. Care to explain your hypocrisy when you label Balochi struggle by Baloch people as terrorism and that by Pakistan terrorists for kashmir as freedom fight!!! You are anti-Indian Army and then your voice box fails about PA doing 1000times worse as we speak–raping and doing genocide of Baloch people—says Asia human rights report.

http://www.ahrchk.net/statements/mainfil e.php/2010statements/2444

“More than 300,000 people from the province are already believed to have fled into neighbouring provinces or to different parts of the Balochistan due to the ongoing conflict there. Meanwhile, provincial assemblies and regional leaders have learnt the lesson that when the stakes are high, the only diplomacy known to the military and federal government is by way of F-16s and helicopter gunships.”

It might sound harsh, but Indian Kashmir is a day on the beach if you read this. Indians are not using helicopter gunships and F-16 to kill people. Indian Army does not have free hand like PA, if you read Dawn more than mere glance you should have known this. Imagine IAF using such weapons. All these pakistani flag in Kashmir can be done because people know Indian security will not feed them bullets over this—not such an assurance in pakistan. Care to comment?

3. You are living in UK. Goof for you and for reality sake read this report on Kashmir in Pakistan.

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2006/pakistan 0906/

“”Pakistan says they are our friends and India is our enemy. I agree India is our enemy, but with friends like these, who needs enemies?—Muzaffarabad resident”"”

4. Care to comment on the statement of ex-Air chief Asghan Khan saying: “The fact is that in the last 60 years of our existence, India has not started hostilities against Pakistan unless provoked to do so, or until we created conditions, as we did in 1971 in East Pakistan, for India to interfere militarily….”

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn -content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/colu mnists/16-ardeshir-cowasjee-wise-words-f rom-an-old-warrior-hs-04

4.. Care to explain how Pakistan gifted Kashmir land to China abd you still are happy about it and say nothing. Think if India does the same.

5. Indian Muslims are much better than those Pakis like you and many Pakistanis. you have nothing to do with Gujarat and nor you have any idea about Indian Muslims; so shut up. They are happy here than be called Muhajirs or getting killed by Shia-Sunni sectarian violence.

6. We already know the root cause of your hatred. SPDI scholars have done good job at that? you can keep on beating the drum of being an Azad Kashmiri and nothing to do with Pakistan ra ra.. till eternity. You are the last one who could be for Kashmir cause.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

Dara:

@He has recounted an incident when he heard frantic cries of help coming over the loudspeaker of a mosque in Srinagar. When he went in to see what was happening, he says he saw no one in there except the loudspeaker and a tape! I bet Pakistan TV played out the sound bytes over a 100 times that day.”
–Dara

Dara: Umair knows all this. Do you think he’ll say that’s shame. he’ll fell –great job ISI.

_____________________________

Kashmiris:

@If you live in a dangerous neighbourhood with gangsters, you need to keep a gun for self defence in person. India dismembered Pakistan in 1971 and went on to detonate a nuclear device in 1974 ’smiling bhudda’ so-called peaceful purposes. That way Pakistan would have suffered further, so it was necessary for Pakistan to keep guard and not lower the defence against India.”
–Umair

So this is the real purpose of the terrorism as Umair confessed and Indian say all along—revenge for 1971 which “some” Kashmiris think is their genuine concern for Kashmiris. Keep at it and lose Baluchistan. That is next in line, by all means—much before Kashmir happens. The struggle is genuine there. Go Baluchistan!

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk,

The Kashmiri deaths at the hands of Indain forces is not a systematic genocide, it is more the result of agitation of Pakistan and INdia trying to maintain order. Unfortunately innocents have suffered at the hands of Indian soldiers who act in such a horrible manner.

Now…let’s talk about that bengali holocaust of 3 million…STILL YOU ARE SILENT…I have addressed the folly of Kashmiri muslims many times and their suffereing started once Pakistan started the selfish geopolitical proxy war on India.

Pakistan=silence on Bengali Genocide of 3 million humans exterminated systematically in cold blood.

3million does not compare to the Kashmiri’s. Are the Kaffirs worthless to you?..please clarify your official stance…the world is waiting still to hear an answer and an apology on this.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

Yes, India dismembered Pakistan in 1971, but liberated bengalis and stopped the further genocide. No other super power or regional power cared, everybody turned a blind eye, Pakistan got what it deserved. Your generals and army are utterly incompetent and down right evil.

Pakistan genocided 3 million human beings in a very short period of time, one of the most quickest and densest total human kills on a per minute basis, faster than the Jewish holocaust and Rwanda.

Why should Kashmir even come up without these things being discussed on the open and giving Pakistan a chance to admit its murderous rampage.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

Moderator: comments uploading problem. Any advice.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

Azad Kashmir today
By Ahmad Faruqui
Monday, 15 Feb, 2010

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn -content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/edit orial/16-azad-kashmir-today-hs-05

“…During the past 62 years, the people of Azad Kashmir have been unable to arise out of poverty in large measure because they are caught in the crossfire between India and Pakistan. The land which their elders knew as a mountain paradise has been turned into a living hell.”

“Of the four million people who inhabit the region, nine of 10 live in extremely impoverished conditions in rural areas. Population growth is excessive, at 2.4 per cent per year, and the average house holds no fewer than seven people. Sadly, Azad Kashmir’s future is as murky today as it was in 1947. And the objective for its creation, the liberation of the vale of Kashmir, seems increasingly remote.”

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 
 

@I understand that Mumbai 2008 attack was tragic, Pakistan too has seen many attacks.”
–Umairpk

BS that you think Mumbai was tragic. I do not believe that for even for a second. Salamn Bashir and Gilani may be restrained to accept that LeT did it for the positions they are in, not you. You are a consistent supporter of terrorists like LeT. So no point saying Mumbai was a tragedy. In a way you were waiting for it (to “fix issue which Muslims have” if I quote you). Yeah sure!!!

I feel sad for the death and destruction anywhere–including Pakistan (including Balochistan and Azad kashmir), Afghanistan, Iraq and Kashmir in India by any one. I have no reservations to say so. But you have.

Now, let me tell you the difference between Pakistan and India. Mumbai terrorism was a case of lunatics who were pakistani citizens, funded by Pakistan govt, supported silently by the likes of you. There is not Indian lunatic who is crossing over to kill Pakistanis. Bear that in mind always. This separates us. Your terrorists are most probably are also terrorists acc to me, but my terrorists are not. Let us get it straight. There is strong need to say only what one means and nothing else.

You cannot call yourself peaceful unless you begin to condemn terrorism, non-selectively. I wonder how one can sleep by these standards. This is not even in the best interests of you own nation. Supporting terrorism and saying Islam is peaceful is not at all consistent. It is also not about Muslims, not about kashmiris. This support cannot be justified without being a hypocrite and lying. hardly helps anyone and worsens the problem. We have no right to blame leaders if we cannot do our share.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

Magic786:
If you could comment the relevant stuff:
1. You talk so much about rape by Indian Army (making it sound as if that is what Indian Army does!!!!) and but you love PA, despite knowing that they notorious in this area. Raped Muslim girls and killed million Muslim and Hindus in E. Pakistan and has been happening for long time in Balochistan while you sing songs about PA.
Read a bit to know the extent of propaganda about Indian excesses. Perhaps you will chill down then.
2. Care to explain your hypocrisy when you label Balochi struggle by Baloch people as terrorism and that by Pakistan terrorists for kashmir as freedom fight!!! You are anti-Indian Army and then your voice box fails about PA doing 1000times worse as we speak–raping and doing genocide of Baloch people—says Asia human rights report.
“More than 300,000 people from the province are already believed to have fled into neighbouring provinces or to different parts of the Balochistan due to the ongoing conflict there. Meanwhile, provincial assemblies and regional leaders have learnt the lesson that when the stakes are high, the only diplomacy known to the military and federal government is by way of F-16s and helicopter gunships.”
It might sound harsh, but Indian Kashmir is a day on the beach if you read this. Indians are not using helicopter gunships and F-16 to kill people. Indian Army does not have free hand like PA, if you read Dawn more than mere glance you should have known this. Imagine IAF using such weapons. All these pakistani flag in Kashmir can be done because people know Indian security will not feed them bullets over this—not such an assurance in pakistan. Care to comment?
3. You are living in UK. Good for you and now read HRW report on Azad Kashmir.
“Miliatnts when they are not killingIndians are ordered by to kill Kashmiris to keep up the anger factor”.
4. Care to comment on the statement of ex-Air chief Asghan Khan saying: “The fact is that in the last 60 years of our existence, India has not started hostilities against Pakistan unless provoked to do so, or until we created conditions, as we did in 1971 in East Pakistan, for India to interfere militarily….”
4.. Care to explain how Pakistan gifted Kashmir land to China abd you still are happy about it and say nothing. Think if India does the same.
5. Indian Muslims are much better than facing Muajir label or die each day by Shia-Sunni sectarian violence.
6. We already know the root cause of your hatred. SPDI scholars have done good job at that? you can keep on beating the drum of being an Azad Kashmiri and nothing to do with Pakistan ra ra.. till eternity. You are the last one who could be for Kashmir cause.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

Magic786:

@I guess none of muslims who live in india were either trust worthy enough or capeable of looking after a mosque. So the keys were handed to hardcore hindu like rajeeve so they can tore down the mosque brick by brick with bare hands as witnised by the world and all idiots unless they looked the other way.”

For the record:
Get off your high horse. In fact I oppose all this religion-based crap—both Babri type by Hindu radicals and Islamic terrorism by LeT and their supporters like you. They are both in the same category. For me pack and nuke all these guys. I have zero sympathy.

I condemn Gujarat Muslim killings and Sikh killings in 1984. But I do not select only certain religions and ignore Hindus like you do—Kashmiri Pundits and those killed in Gujarat.

Are you ready to do the same. Let us see what you got.

Could you go and address the points listed or would you talk crap till eternity?

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

“When the two countries were carved out the simple rule was used Muslim MAJORITY would form Pakistan. Hindu MAJORITY areas would form India. On that simple rule Kashmir is integral part of Pakistan.” (Guess who????)

I would rather be thought an idiot by another, than be ignorant. Making your own rules is ok, but when you make them 60 years too late you raise a laugh, as always!

Please continue to exhibit your grand knowledge and attempts at rewriting history. It is just the humour we need around here now and again.

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive
 

Magic786,

The world is getting tired of the Babri Mosque incident. It is done. It was religious Hindu land before it was snatched by Muslims and desecrated and urinated on by your Moghul forefathers, so the site of the Babri has returned to its rightful owners.

On the topic of shrines, where were you, I did not hear you stick for the religious rights of Buddhists when the Buddhist shrines were destroyed by your precious Taliban friends and you were even no where mentioning anything regarding treatment of the Uighers by the Chinese and again you were silent on the way the Chinese treated the Tibetans..

so please…the Babri story really does not mean much…it is not all that big of a scourge on humanity, it is one site..it is just a bricked building get over it, another can be built and many are always being built…deal with it. Hundreds of Hindu shrines were pillaged, destroyed confiscated and destroyed by Muslims before the British came and half of our history, our culture and our population was taken Hostage, converted, beheaded violated and forced to pay heavy Jizya to foreign outside invaders…our dignity was robbed on our own ancestral home land. So please spare me the tears about Babri..no body cares and no body listening to those who perpetrate genocides on others and plan to do more.

Hundreds of Mosques are getting built in Europe every year from oil money, there are plenty other places for you to go.

Hindu extremism IS NOT state sponsored but generated as a phenomenon when the collective group of people have had it upto their eyeballs in being treated like animals, because their religion is used to punish them by those who practice another belief system.

Please take some lessons in fairness, doublestandards, crocodile tears and crying wolf since the world will not listen to backwards logic like yours.

For the record, as an Indian, whether one is muslim, hindu(any kind), christian, sikh, Buddhist, Jew, to me..all of these people are my country men, my family, equal in the eyes of the law and equal in respect and equal as human beings before GOD, bar none.

It is wrong that Hindu extremists do things against Muslims, but it is also wrong that Muslims do violent things against Hindus in Pakistan as well and the dwindling Population of hindus there since partition is a testament to that.

I don’t care less for Hindu extremists, they are bad for India and so are muslim extremists.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

Let this be clear that babi Masjid was not operational at the time it was demolished. It is not as if Muslims were thrown out and Mullah asked to leave. No Muslim was going there. This and the rest is history.

GW and all: Try not to get into lengthy arguments with Magic786 over Babri masjid or Gujarat. he has the habit to do so and not talk relevant stuff. I asked him Kashmir-specific questions and he is quiet.

______________________

Dara:

Magic786 has trouble understanding the age at which a girl achieves biological and legal adulthood. Understandably, expecting him to know the India-Pakistan basis and how the lines were drawn and who did that in 1947 is asking for moon (in Punjabi there we say “expecting milk from a Bull”).

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

@Magic786

Do you ever read what other posters comments ??

If yes why don’t you answer the question regarding Bengali Genocide and Kashmiri Pandits, you also did not answer about destruction of Buddhist monuments in Afghanistan.

Probably you don’t know how to read, that’s why you have no idea what you are writing here.

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive
 

@Keeping Kashmir secret”
-Myra: While the title of your article is not true, it is true that terrorism by Pakistan against India is no secret.

Well, you have made some Pakistani generals happy and earned easy access to them next time you visit Pakistan!

@Perhaps it’s time Holbrooke dropped his resistance to naming it.”
Myra: May be he is intelligent enough not to do so.

You still have not told why Holbrooke should listen to you and involve himself in this. Holbrooke has no problems with the given arrangement, may be you should too. Just saying because…….is not enough. A good reason will help.

@Just so that we remember that this ”certain area” is actually a place with real people living in it, I’m posting a photo of street cricket in the Kashmiri capital Srinagar.”

Myra: What happened to your objective opinion that you do not show a picture of people suffering in Mujaffarabad in POK. Hardly ever you mention anything on Azad kashmir nor Sheikh Mushataq, the Reuters expert on Kashmir. Isn’t it fair to say that news on Azad Kashmir in Pakistan is a taboo. This despite the Azad kashmir being called as “living hell” by none other than pakistani newspaper Dawn. Neutral Reuters is quiet.

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn -content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/edit orial/16-azad-kashmir-today-hs-05

“…During the past 62 years, the people of Azad Kashmir have been unable to arise out of poverty in large measure because they are caught in the crossfire between India and Pakistan. The land which their elders knew as a mountain paradise has been turned into a living hell.”

“Of the four million people who inhabit the region, nine of 10 live in extremely impoverished conditions in rural areas. Population growth is excessive, at 2.4 per cent per year, and the average house holds no fewer than seven people. Sadly, Azad Kashmir’s future is as murky today as it was in 1947. And the objective for its creation, the liberation of the vale of Kashmir, seems increasingly remote.”

Not a word about Azad Kashmir on Reuters. Hmmm!

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

Rajeev wrote:
“You are a consistent supporter of terrorists like LeT.”

-I am a consistent supporter of Pakistan, Pakistan Army, ISI, Pakistani state, and LeT is a non-state actor.

I condemn India’s state sponsored terrorism perpetrated on the people of Jammu and Kashmir. I condemn the massacre of muslims in Gujrat, India has committed many crimes. Now when organizations like LeT have taken up arms, you must know why is it so? why is there resistence? why is there violence? what is the root cause? It is simple the occupation of Kashmir.

When did LeT came into being? what are its objectives? These are the questions to be asked. LeT is no different than RSS, VHP Sangh pariwar, Shiv Sena, all these are different sides of the same cion. Do not hide behind curtain come out in open, don’t be a liar hypocrite with double standards. If you want peace solve the Kashmir dipsute and end the occupation of Kashmir. Otherwise you will meet resistence, you call it terrorism, those who resist call it freedom struggle.

It is a very contentious issue, one time freedom fighters all over the world were termed as terrorists. To the white racist regime of South Africa, Nelson Mandela was a terrorist. To his people Mandela was a freedom warrior. India’s hypocricy will result in another war, but this will be a horrific one.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

@Umairpk

”India’s hypocricy will result in another war, but this will be a horrific one.”

Your open declaration for war sums up your mentality very well. You want to look into reasons why LeT was formed, then there are always reasons for every outfit that we see today.

Posted by holywarrior007 | Report as abusive
 

Umair:

That’s what I said that you are a supporter of terrorists.

I am not a supporter of Hindu radicals-althought they got nothing to do with Pakistan. My problem with them is they are disturbing communal harmony in India.

@eT is no different than RSS, VHP Sangh pariwar, Shiv Sena, all these are different sides of the same cion:
–LeT and RSS, VHP Sangh pariwar, Shiv Sena will be the same the day they blow half your or your friends family up in Pakistan.

Then they become the same as LeT. Until now they are not. Again I am not their supporter.

I have no ifs and buts issues of supporting violence, you do. keep it up for fixing the Muslim issues and send ypur country to dogs. If LeT is non-state why would they give up the arms since Pakistan got nothing to do with and cannot do so, right?

Stop your SHOSHA of shedding tears for Muslims or Kashmiris!

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

@Umair: “I am a consistent supporter of Pakistan, Pakistan Army, ISI, Pakistani state, and LeT is a non-state actor”

It’s quite well substantiated that the Pakistani Army & ISI (& thus the Pakistani state) control the ‘non-state actors’ like LeT. So, you ARE actually a supporter of terrorism. It’s like saying “I don’t control the petty thugs but I’m a consistent supporter of the mobsters who control them”.

@ “When did LeT came into being? what are its objectives? These are the questions to be asked.”

The LeT came into being because your Generals were itching to take revenge for 1971 & desperately wanted to ‘bleed India with a thousand cuts’. That’s exactly why it created & nurtured terrorist groups like LeT, JeM etc. You’re fooling no one by saying that the freedom of Kashmir is their objective. Their objective was, is & always will be, to somehow hurt India. Even if Kashmir was no longer a part of India, they & their bosses (the mafia in Rawal Pindi) will find a reason to hate India & hurt it. That’s the simple truth & the world is starting to realize it as well.

@ “To the white racist regime of South Africa, Nelson Mandela was a terrorist. To his people Mandela was a freedom warrior”

Your comparison of murderous terror outfits like LeT with the non-violent & peaceful struggle of Mandela, is quite ridiculous.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

LeT will be dealt with. India has P Chidambarm running the Home Ministry and he is a very intelligent man who is working on plugging the loop holes and has a full view of how things are.

Pakistan can only be brought to its knees by giving it a taste of its own medicine. The Americans have done it for them and Pakistan is finally beginning to cooperate. India has no choice but to resort to proxy war because Pakistan has been relentless in its pursuit of destabilizing India. To make them give up their support for groups like the LeT, we need to force them to that situation. And there is nothing like propping up Balochistan and other peripheral movements. We need to do what the Americans did to bring down the USSR. These people never learn. We have cut them up in two and they still have no brains to look at where they are heading. If they raise the nuclear chest thumping, let them know that we have plenty in stock to give it back to them. Proxy war is the next thing India has to start inside Pakistan to keep them chasing their own tail and only then they will agree to work with us. These are arrogant people and they refuse to look at their weaknesses. So we should show it to them. I see it as a war that has been initiated by Pakistan. So let us end it for them.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@KPSingh, Rajeev and even UmairPk

First it was Tehreek E Taliban, Now Afghan taliban and next stop will be Kashmiri State terrorist, the next frankenstein to be stopped by the west. India will not have to lift a finger.

Peace will come to Pakistan and India once Pakistan is choked by the neck and forced over a barrel to submit and be allowed to survive if it promises to behave properly.

Pakistanis need to be a little grateful to those who provide life support and be grateful to India for not indulging in retribution. Pakistanis should realize that their statehood is a privilege and its right can be removed any time by financiers, the “banks” and the US. Nothing is really stopping them.

The civilized world does not bow to terrorists and enemies of civilization who drag a good religion and gods name through mud by bringing terrorism on others.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

Jammu and Kashmir are integral parts of India, Indian history, and Indian civilization. End of story.

Pakistan needs to move on, worry about the development of its own people before sticking its nose into Indian affairs. Isn’t it enough that the mentality of dividing a territory along religious lines has led to the severing of India, to create what is today Pakistan and Bangladesh?

If it was not for Pakistan’s involvement and mentality, Kashmir would be far more developed and harmonious than it is today. It is well known that the Pakistani Government has supported the creation and continuance of its terrorist ideology and hatred towards India, sending over terrorists to kill innocent people. Who do they think they are asking for talks on Kashmir – pretending to be interested in the welfare of Kashmiris? All they want is land! They don’t care about Kashmiris, they interest is in settling a score with India.

It is a sad day to see that Pakistan thinks of itself as having a moral authority. They need to turn the mirror on themselves, reflect and worry about their own nation. After all, they got what they wanted isn’t it? A separate country carved out of India. Can’t they be content with that and leave us Indians alone now? (it’s been nearly 63 years since we’ve been divorced from one another!)

Posted by hindustani | Report as abusive
 

Please don’t forget the MAJOR difference between the LeT and the Hindu fundamentalists. The latter do not send their goons and thugs to other countries to massacre innocents. Most, the vast majority of the population of India condemns their activities most vehemently, and you know it. Now lets hear you say that about your own fundamentalists – state or non sate.

If the LeT is a non state actor why doesn’t the Govt of Pakistan ban them appearing in public? Why does it allow them to hold rallies in public? So, in India is the Shiv Sena or any fundamentalist organistion a sate or non sate actor? Does that excuse the govt of India of not taking action against them for breaking the law?

What exactly do you mean by non-state? Just because they aren’t govt organisations doesn’t mean the state of Pakistan cannot control them. The government of the country from which non-state actors operate and flaunt the law, is responsible for bringing them to justice. Are all thieves, murderers and arsonists non state actors in Pakistan and outside the reach of the government there? Some government!

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive
 

This LeT supporter Umair seems to be a product of Madrassa education. He expects others to believe that LeT has nothing to do with the Pak Govt. and it’s notorious intelligence agency, ISI.

Posted by NNI | Report as abusive
 

This current congress government, headed by ManMohan Singh and his aides like Chiddu, Pran Mukhi remote controlled by Sonia Maino and Roul will go down in history of annals as the one who sold Kashmir in real estate deal with US and Saudis.

Posted by Bharateey | Report as abusive
 

@This current congress government, headed by ManMohan Singh and his aides like Chiddu, Pran Mukhi remote controlled by Sonia Maino and Roul will go down in history of annals as the one who sold Kashmir in real estate deal with US and Saudis.
Posted by Bharateey

—Any basis for this prophetic statement?

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

all:MUST READ:

Americans think Pakistan outsourcing its dirty tactics to rogue ISI elements to get geopolitical leverage against U.S. and possibly India to get its way in Kashmir, ie Pakistan agencies know the exact where abouts of Osama Bin Laden.

http://afghanistan.blogs.cnn.com/2010/03  /03/whatever-happened-to-bin-laden/

It appears that possibly Pakistani establishment willing to take sacrifices of Pak Army and citizens to use OBL as a bargaining chip for long term gain. You decide.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

There cannot be peace between India and Pakistan as long as Pakistan has madrasa system to provides backwards extremist education against Kaffirs and infidels, which launch terrorist attacks against India.

Terrorists are terrorists and any forms of terrorism are unjustified to intimidate India over the Kashmir issue.

ISI and Pak Army control all Kashmir terrorists.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

“Please don’t forget the MAJOR difference between the LeT and the Hindu fundamentalists. The latter do not send their goons and thugs to other countries to massacre innocents.”

Dara the fact is they dont need to as they have enought targets in India. Once they have achieved there local objectives only than they will enhance there operation speheres. If you NOT usre what activaties they are burning churches, intimidation, destroying mosques, make suring no dalit is converted even thought hindus are not willing to even TOUCH them. So even if they choose to convert to another religion thats a NO,NO. So plenty of work locally why go outside yet achieve there locals objectives after than they will expand dont worry.

They have already shown there true colours when the bombed the samjota train full of innocent muslims REMEMBER!!!

Posted by Magic786 | Report as abusive
 

Maybe Mr Singh should also let the Saudi King know his feeling regards to the Madrasa education. Since it were the Saudis who introduced Wahabism in Pakistan and also funding of the madrasas…

There can NOT be peace till India comes clean without any hidden agendas nor pressurised by uncle Sam. To sit on table not only convey their message of displeasure and back it up with eveidence and NOT in Marathi please. But also admit that Terrorism is NOT only Pakistan problem. Its the whole Global problem… since most idiots are trying there best to portray Pakistan as the main source Pakistan had nothing to do IRA…They bombed London, Manchester but NEVER laveled terrorists. They werent exactly thrown flowers at civilains were they so why not also label them as Terrorist even better as Christian Terrorists. But nah there is NO such thing as Hindi terrorist or Christian terrorist or even Jew terrorist even tho they are first one to start all this terrorism.. When the bombed the British in

Posted by Magic786 | Report as abusive
 

Maybe Mr Singh should also let the Saudi King know his feeling regards to the Madrasa education. Since it were the Saudis who introduced Wahabism in Pakistan and also funding of the madrasas…

There can NOT be peace till India comes clean without any hidden agendas nor pressurised by uncle Sam. To sit on table not only convey their message of displeasure and back it up with eveidence and NOT in Marathi please.

But also admit that Terrorism is NOT only Pakistan problem. Its the whole Global problem… since most idiots are trying there best to portray Pakistan as the main source, Pakistan had nothing to do with IRA…They bombed London, Manchester but NEVER labelled terrorists. They werent exactly thrown flowers at civilains were they so why not also label them as Terrorist even better as Christian Terrorists. But nah there is NO such thing as Hindu terrorist or Christian terrorist or even better Jew terrorists. Even tho they are first one to start all this terrorism.. When the bombed the British in Jeruslame forced whole of Palestinians out of there lands because God promised them this land my foot!

Since the world belongs to God, why certain piece and so on but thats another story. Sticking to our idiotic neighours… You want PEACE than simple solve the problems that are the causes of all these misadvetures from both sides…

Sort the Kashmir issue first and formost…Its time for third party to get involved since both sides simply through rubbish allegation and over. If they had the WILL on both sides we would have seen it solved. India thinks by keeping the Occupation the Kashmiris will get worn out meanwhile Pakistan is starting to almost dismantle so therefore it favours India NOT to talk.

Before idiots start saying Simla accord it will be solved billaterly but than after six decades if it hasent than what hopes do the kashmiris have? To live under the Occupation or pick up the gun?! Which they forced to do NOT too long ago but have to admit with Pakistan backing and some hope of peace and Mr Singh also sounding that he wants to establish long term peace in the region.Ho wcan we be at peace if the core problems the Bigger meighor does not even want to talk lets “talk baout talks”…

Grow up! Before its too late another uprising occurs…

Posted by Magic786 | Report as abusive
 

Idiots always bring up the genocide of Bengalis… Firslty this happened before I was even born but yes reading the facts and articles as well as videos. I admit Pakistan Army did terriblle things similar to what the Indina OCCUPATION forces are doing right now in Kashmir. To rape the locals women, kill the young once and claim he was terrorist so on even though all they are asking for is freedom. Kashmiris are asking that from Indian and Bengalis wanted that from West Pakistan as Najeeb did win the elections and that was the catalyst.

As a true enemy that India is jumped on the band wagon possibly most likely commityed more crimes on beaglis and labeled Pakistan they were the one who did it. But NO excuse also for the Pak army as the killed felloe muslims so the fauly is the General at that times NOT me and so on.

But thats Pakistan and Bangladesh problem….who kncked on idiots cage? BUt than they are also entitled to there opnions so fair enough…

India OUT of Kashmir and some of my neighours who are day dreaming by saying Kashmir is integral part of India… yep part of india since you occupied it prior to that it was simply Kashmir. Where all kashmiris lived side by side in harmoney beside what you believed so on…

Posted by Magic786 | Report as abusive
 

Magic786—the Genius,

You are becoming even more incoherent.

Look genius, Kashmiris are our brothers, as reflected by Indian stand that they are integral part of India. Quite different from Azad Kashmir, which is anything but Azad.

@Idiots always bring up the genocide of Bengalis… Firslty this happened before I was even born but yes reading the facts and articles as well as videos.”
—-Bengalis must thank that you were not in Pakistani Army.

@I admit Pakistan Army did terriblle things similar to what the Indina OCCUPATION forces are doing right now in Kashmir.”
—-That sounds like a little slap at the butt of a serial rapist but again using Indian TADKA. Such feeble displeasure over millions raped and dead. Wow!

Then in the next breath you say that it were the Indians who did all that.
“”"”As a true enemy that India is jumped on the band wagon possibly most likely commityed more crimes on beaglis and labeled Pakistan they were the one who did it.”

You continue your flip-flop-flip-flop game by again switching to:
“But NO excuse also for the Pak army as the killed felloe muslims so the fauly is the General at that times NOT me and so on.”"

I have no idea what you want to say. Be loud and clear.

What happended to all that list of questions on Kashmir? It is 11th time I am asking you. Clearly, you do are not interested in Kashmir.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

Magic 786 says:

“Idiots always bring up the genocide of Bengalis… Firslty this happened before I was even born but yes reading the facts and articles as well as videos. I admit Pakistan Army did terriblle things similar to what the Indina OCCUPATION forces are doing right now in Kashmir. To rape the locals women, kill the young once and claim he was terrorist so on even though all they are asking for is freedom. Kashmiris are asking that from Indian and Bengalis wanted that from West Pakistan as Najeeb did win the elections and that was the catalyst. ”

–>You want to call us idiots, I can call you brain dead idiots, especially you. You want to talk about rape buddy, your Army received official state orders to rape women from little girls to old women and they were systematically raped by your army men, en mass in shockingly huge numbers, not like the sproadic raping by the few filthy Indian soldiers, I mean organized mass rapes, this is all documented history.

Some Kashmiri separatists, the brainwashed ones, think that they will fare better as muslims being with Pakistan, because it is muslim, they are wrong, Pakistan is a racist society, especially towards those who are not Sunni muslims.

Indian army is not committing genocide in Kashmir, it is there for security purposes, it has been there since the 80′s and yes, due to the Pakistani state agencies fomenting terrorism, brainwashed and innocent Kashmiris have died and been raped, that is unfortunate, but a reality when a large footprint of armies are deployed to protect territorial integrity from proxy terrorism caused by Pakistan. You see…if you Pakistanis had not started proxy wars on Indian Kashmir, Kashmiri’s would not be suffering, because there would be no Indian army needed there to protect India from your State, ISI and Army trained proxy terrorists.

I believe it was always the intention of Pakistan to wage a proxy war against India and blame all collateral damage and point fingers at India, when in fact Indian ARmy shouldn’t even be there, had it not been for Pakistan fueling, supporting, training and army Kashmiri militants, there fore Kashmiri’s in India suffering is YOUR FAULT.

On the genocide note, you Pakistani’s genocided 3 million humans in almost 9 months, that makes it the most concentrated genocide in human history, bar none. Kashmiri casualties, unfortunate as they are do not even compare.

The target of the genocide were mostly hindus and 10 million refugees poured into india, fleeing the genocide from the Pakistani ARmy.

I do not believe that there are 10 million refugees flowing out of Kashmir into PoK.

For your ignorant and brain dead mind, you should know the definition of genocide:

wikipedia:

“Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group.”

Muslims are generally thriving in kashmir and they are not being systematically singled out and exterminated.

On the issue of rapes, you don’t care less for rapes any how, look how Pakistan treated Muktara Mai, much to the embarassment of Pakistan, the entire world saw it all, we need not go into details, there is hundreds of Muktara Mai’s in pakistan daily, so do you Paks really care more about kashmiri women? ….no I don’t think so.

So please do not pour salt on the wounds of Bengalis, the genocide by the Pak Army of 1971 is an unforgettable systematic state organized mass murder on a grand scale, the bengalis will never forget and neither will the world.

Again, you are a holocaust denier. Holocaust deniers do not deserve a voice.

If India wanted to crush the muslims in Kashmir, they would have long ago, the truth is, the Indian army is there to maintain law and order and most muslims carry about their daily lives, in prayer, work and taking care of the families and don’t really care to be with a poor, destitute and backwards country like Pakistan, they can fare 10x better in India, living with muslims, hindus, sikhs, and any other religion. It is true, there are those, who are uneducated, brainwashed, those who have idle time, those who just need a mission in life, those who need to belong, those who have poor self esteem that engage in separatism, in a needless and useless way are only being used by Pakistani proxy army assets to cause trouble.

The Indian army is there, because illegal acts by Pakistani proxy armies, frankensteins of the Pak Army and the security situation is a direct result of Pakistani fueling terrorism into India.

Therefore the suffering of kashmiri’s is the direct fault of Pakistani itself, end of story.

You stand silenced.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

@It is a very contentious issue, one time freedom fighters all over the world were termed as terrorists. To the white racist regime of South Africa, Nelson Mandela was a terrorist. To his people Mandela was a freedom warrior.”
–Umairpk

—Lovely! LeT as Kashmir’s Mandela. lol. Is it a complement to LeT terrorist Kasab or an insult to Mandela? Kleshnikov totting Mandelas of Pakistan!!!!!

I have not heard that freedom fighters hide themselves by dissociating themselves from an act of violence which they do during their freedom struggle.

Do Kashmiris a favor: Leave them something dignified to write in their history books than construct a pack of lies like Pakistan does for history in schools.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

Mr. Imbecil:

“Idiots always bring up the genocide of Bengalis… Firslty this happened before I was even born but yes reading the facts and articles as well as videos.”

If Bangladesh does not matter because it happened before you were born, why does Kashmir matter whose division happened even before the birth of Bangladesh?

“I admit Pakistan Army did terriblle things similar to what the Indina OCCUPATION forces are doing right now in Kashmir. ”

The two are not the same. In East Pakistan, the Pak military lined up all political activists, intellectuals, writers, teachers, professors etc and shot them dead in cold blood. It tried to subjugate the population by inducing terror. Soldiers went on a rampage with no accountability to anyone. They preyed on women and killed indiscriminately. There was a massive exodus of refugees towards India.

In Kashmir, Pakistan trained and sponsored militants enter with cover provided by the Pakistani Military, into Indian side of Kashmir. If they manage to sneak through, they find shelters amongst their sympathizers who are sustained by Pakistan. Then they attack public places that invites the security forces to counter it. They run back and hide into the population which feels threatened to expose them for fear of reprisal. The soldiers get frustrated and on more than fifty percent of times end up targeting the wrong people. This is the aim of Pakistan. Create havoc, frustrate the Indian security forces, force them to commit blunders, use propaganda to amplify everything, raise propaganda, marches, riots and what not. This brings in more security forces to control the situation and Pakistan injects more terrorists who are mostly from their Southern Punjab province. The purpose is to create tension and alienate the local population from the rest of India. And Pakistan was succeeding in it quite well until 9/11 happened.

So India did not send in its military to teach Kashmiris a lesson so that they dare not rise. India’s goal was to contain the militancy and counter Pakistan’s proxy war in Kashmir. That is why there is no exodus of millions of refugees from Indian Kashmir into the glorious land of milk and honey called Pakistan. The only exodus has been that by the Hindu Pundits who were threatened and massacred by the Pak sponsored militants.

Get your facts clear. What Pakistan did to East Pakistanis has no comparison. What India is doing is very similar to what Pakistan is doing in South Waziristan – to contain unrest and bring the rule of law.

“To rape the locals women, kill the young once and claim he was terrorist so on even though all they are asking for is freedom. Kashmiris are asking that from Indian and Bengalis wanted that from West Pakistan as Najeeb did win the elections and that was the catalyst.”

See the above. We know what is propaganda and what is not. So scream as much as you want. No one cares. You cannot shake India by violent means. And it is not Najeeb, Mr. Imbecile, it is Mujeeb. Tell your Madrasa teacher to read up for himself first.

“As a true enemy that India is jumped on the band wagon possibly most likely commityed more crimes on beaglis and labeled Pakistan they were the one who did it.”

Yeah, Yeah! Twist everything to suit your view point. Again, nothing’s going to change so long as your mind is warped. Indians do not want to make any deals with people with warped minds. Your words are clear evidence of that.

“But NO excuse also for the Pak army as the killed felloe muslims so the fauly is the General at that times NOT me and so on.”

It doesn’t matter. Just like you accuse all of India for even constipation problems of Kashmiris and Pakistanis, it does not matter if your general committed atrocities or your whole nation did it. The fact is Pakistan committed atrocities and paid the price for it. It has not learned any lesson so it is going to pay for its arrogance once more. This will be big this time.

“But thats Pakistan and Bangladesh problem….who kncked on idiots cage? BUt than they are also entitled to there opnions so fair enough…”

So Kashmir is India’s problem. Why does Pakistan care? Why can’t Pakistan spend its money and resources on education, hosptials and nation building? Kashmir was never a problem until Pakistan sent its war hardened militants into the valley in 1989. So take them back and bury them in your holy land. Kashmir will be peaceful and life will move on.

“India OUT of Kashmir and some of my neighours who are day dreaming by saying Kashmir is integral part of India… yep part of india since you occupied it prior to that it was simply Kashmir. Where all kashmiris lived side by side in harmoney beside what you believed so on…”

You are not a Kashmiri. From your words it is very clear that you are a Pakistani and you go back and take care of your wonderful nation that is falling apart. You cannot push India around. Understand that reality and get a life.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@Magic786

You know Magic, your life to me is equally important as mine, whether you are muslim, christian, hindu or Sikh, or whatever.

It comes back to the same thing, you Pakistani’s have no remorse, no offically acknowledged statement of the genocide of 1971, curiously silent and on top of that you have the nerve to compare 80,000 Kashmiri’s to 3million genocided Bengalis and try to pass it off as some sort of equal statement, not to diminish those poor Kashmiris who were killed or raped.

It just seems and feels that kaffirs’s lives are worthless to you Pakistani’s at least the educated ones with computers who frequent this blog.

There is a fundamental lack of human compassion at the core of the Pakistani psyche towards non-muslims and non-sunni muslims. This is truly dangerous and in some cases, definitely racist and bigotted, if not evil.

You have no care of the 50,000 hindu pundits that were killed by muslims and those hindus that have dwindled from 15% to 2% in Pakistan since partition.

Please answer me, are the lives of non-muslims worthless, or just less than a muslim, please tell me how many hindus it takes to equal a muslim life?

Don’t have an answer? Well, my answer is that they are equal in every respect before the law, all man made laws and before God. I don’t think you have the courage or the bxlls to give an answer, and you will be silent.

May God bless ANY humans that suffer at the hands of aggressors.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

Indian friends accuse me of supporting LeT, and that ISI is a supporter of LeT.
Ok, here are the facts, first comparison of Nelson Mandela and LeT, Nelson Mandela belonged to ANC (African National Congress) its leaders in exile during 60s and 70s waged guirella warfare with AK-47s against the SADF (South African Defence Forces). In Zimbabwe (then Rhodesia) the ZANU-PF rebells fought in the Rhodesian Bush wars against the white minority regime, these were armed struggles of independence, with leaders as Robert Mugabe and Nelson Mandela either exiled or behind bars. I don’t know if you can compare any of Kashmiri sepratist leaders with Mandela and sorts.
Now with ISI supporting LeT, total non-sense. TTP is on the other hand being supported by India via Afghanistan. Indian Army machine guns were found from the caves in waziristan being supplied to Taliban rebels. ISI has taken direct hits, Pakistan Army HQ attacked, ISI bus bombed, regional HQ bombed. So it is clear even with the recent arrests of senior Afghan Taliban leaders and Al-Qaeda leaders from urban cities in Pakistan. Pakistan is throwing its weight behind the US and allies, in the way suffering casualties. Its only Indians calling LeT being supported by Pakistani state.

Guys, there is a problem in Indo-Pak relations we need to sit down and talk. Otherwise carry on the blame game and talk; my missile is lethal than yours, my missile can fire longer range than yours. Until both nations grow up to the point of owning their mistakes, confronting their differences and talking too often. There is no hope for us and our future generations for a durable peace.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

GW:
“It just seems and feels that kaffirs’s lives are worthless to you Pakistani’s at least the educated ones with computers who frequent this blog.”

-Let me translate a verse from the Holy Quran:
-A person who saves one human life is equals of saving the whole humkanity. A person who takes one human life equals of killing the whole humanity.
Sorry, you never tried to learn about Islam and no muslim probably including me ever sincerely tried to present you what Islam truly stands for. Do some of your own research rather than asking questions from others find your own answers. Probably you can find truth.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk:

Root cause for Kashmir problem? Pakistan violated the Kashmir sovereignty by unprovoked tribal invasion in Oct22nd 1947. Had that not happened, Kashmir would have been free and Kashmir Raja would not have asked formal intervention of Indian Army. Magic786 would have been a pain in the as$ in free Kashmir not in Azad Kashmir.

Why LeT has emerged? LeT is Pakistan terrorist organization killing Indians including Kashmiris and are serving as political tool of Pakistan meant for revenge against India for 1971. The guys are Pakistani Punjabi youngmen, fed with a distorted version of Jihad, promised 70+ virgins in heaven and unleashed across the LoC. These men have no idea what Kashmir culture is, never stepped in Kashmir before picking up the gun and believed ISI’s as prophet’s words. Kashmir struggle has been lost by demographic shift accompanying this militancy. Kashmiris are now out of picture as far as Kashmir struggle is concerned, having no say in it; it is all Pakistan-run business now. Moderate Kashmiri leaders willing to talk to India have been killed in the past, Kashmiri militants who do not align with pakistan’s policies on Kashmir have also been killed. This is all in the name of so-called Kashmir cause!!!

It will keep on like this until remittance economy Pakistan’s money pot with a huge hole in it runs dry or fresh penny flow is stopped. It all can change for better when India gets the idea that Pakistan accepts them as state actor and stops their support. Then India can sits with Pak sit to fix the problems. Singh already said India will go extra mile for this. He did that with Bangladesh recently over B’desh promising not to support any anti-India terrorist operating from their soil. if not, wait till Kingdom come for solution.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

Punjabhi Gandhi’s wisdom:

“Now with ISI supporting LeT, total non-sense. TTP is on the other hand being supported by India via Afghanistan. Indian Army machine guns were found from the caves in waziristan being supplied to Taliban rebels.”

It is easy to buy Indian ammunition from black market or label ammunition with Indian manufacturing imprint and hide everything. The CIA did this to the Russians during the war against them in Afghanistan. They worked with Egypt and manufactured weapons licensed by the Russians to Egypt and shipped them to Zia Ul Haq. This way the Russians could not accuse the Americans of any direct involvement. The world knows the wily tactics of the ISI and Pak military. Wolves in sheep skin can never hide. There is not an iota of proof that India is involved in any sabotage inside Pakistan. It should, from now on. That will accelerate the collapse of Pakistan.

“ISI has taken direct hits, Pakistan Army HQ attacked, ISI bus bombed, regional HQ bombed. So it is clear even with the recent arrests of senior Afghan Taliban leaders and Al-Qaeda leaders from urban cities in Pakistan.”

That is because Pakistan bred this monster inside its belly. It is unable to get out and wreak havoc. So it is eating Pakistan’s own guts. So enjoy it while it lasts.

“Pakistan is throwing its weight behind the US and allies, in the way suffering casualties.”

No. Pakistan created the monster. It preserved it inside its borders when the ignorant Americans showed up and drove them out. They tried to wait out the Americans and make money at the same time. But a smart President came to office in Washington and he knows exactly what is going on. So the pressure is hurting Pakistan from within. Too much gas has accumulated inside Pakistan’s guts and it is causing tummy ache. So Pakistan is releasing gas when no one is looking and blaming the others for that smell.

“Its only Indians calling LeT being supported by Pakistani state.”

Yeah, LeT is made up of Red Cross volunteers who pray everyday for world peace. Everyone other than Pakistanis are calling LeT a terrorist organization and they are freely operating inside Pakistan. Stop looking outside all the time, turn around and take a look at the inside of your country first.

“Guys, there is a problem in Indo-Pak relations we need to sit down and talk.”

Talk to whom? Umair? You can solve all problems? Who is running the show in Pakistan? Your military? Zardari? Gilani? Qureshi? Rehman Mallik? ISI? Hafeez Saeed? Who is calling the shots in Pakistan. Each one is saying his own thing. Who is in charge? First make that clear and then one can talk about talks. India-Pakistan relationship is of no one’s interest. India has no interest in Pakistan. It is Pakistan that has been an irritant. So if you guys stop doing what you are doing and mind your own business, we will mind ours. You got yourself a nation. Go do something about it. We have no interest in what you do and how you do it. Keep it all to yourselves and we will not bother you. There is no need for any talks. You stay where you belong and we will do the same.

“Otherwise carry on the blame game and talk; my missile is lethal than yours, my missile can fire longer range than yours.”

Your country is small in every way compared to ours. You simply cannot play catch up with us. Our priorities are different. We make no comparisons with your country. It is your countrymen who are desperate to achieve parity even if they have eat grass. So keep eating grass. We never invited you to any competition. This is something you brought upon yourselves because of your big bloated arrogance. So look at yourselves and try to catch up with countries like Iran, Bangladesh, Malaysia etc which are similar in size and resources to your country. We belong to the bigger league and we are already playing there. You focus on your little league.

“Until both nations grow up to the point of owning their mistakes, confronting their differences and talking too often.”

We have not made any mistakes. So start counting your mistakes and see what you can do to avoid them in the future. That is all you have got before time runs out. We have enough things to worry about and the only mistake we have made are treating your country with respect.

“There is no hope for us and our future generations for a durable peace.”

Good realization. Tell that your countrymen. There is absolutely no hope for Pakistan. For generations to come you guys are going to be on a frying pan. So do something and stop itching others.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@Indian friends accuse me of supporting LeT, and that ISI is a supporter of LeT.”
-Umairpk

—Accuse you? You do upport LeT. You think I call you peaceful and can justify your stand if you support someone that blows up Indians, including Kashmiris. It is a different qn that you call LeT as non-state actor, whatever that means. What does non-state means anyways?

Mandela Qn:
Mandela was non-violent like Gandhi and took up arms as a better alterantive later on. He is not a less admirer of Gandhi. LeT will be called Mandela if LeT was ever a non-violent army like Khudai Khidmatgaar of Badshah Khan, powerful pathan army without arms (traitor to you). LeT is people brainwashed to kill kaafir and have no connection with real cause of Kashmir. Do not confuse them with Kashmiris or Mandela.

@ I don’t know if you can compare any of Kashmiri sepratist leaders with Mandela and sorts.”
—India can talk with separatists who are non-violent but they are controlled by Pakistan which still is OK as long as terrorists are not in picture. The problem is Pakistan’s terrorism by LeT (as simple example and leaving other groups) not allowing any person willing to sit and talk.

@ Let me translate a verse from the Holy Quran:
-A person who saves one human life is equals of saving the whole humkanity. A person who takes one human life equals of killing the whole humanity.”
—I have heard this before from you. So what does that has to do with you? While the verse is great, how can citing a verse tells us that you practice it. Each time a chance comes up you act opposite to this verse. Muslims who put this into practice do not have to cite it or will have to say Islam is beautiful.

@ Until both nations grow up to the point of owning their mistakes, confronting their differences and talking too often. There is no hope for us and our future generations for a durable peace.”
–very forward looking statement this one! Leaders will sit whenever it happens. We are talking about posters like you and me talking some common sense and the stand they take. No one is a policy maker (probably) but not telling lies here will save everyone’s time and finally each voice counts. Saying LeT has nothing to do with Pakistan is a lie. Expecting Indians not to be religious fanatics and you do a vanishing act when asked to explain your stand is not common sense. Supporting anti-India violent groups as policy and expecting Indians to label you peaceful and a religious man for few verses you type is not going to happen.

@Now with ISI supporting LeT, total non-sense. TTP is on the other hand being supported by India via Afghanistan. Indian Army machine guns were found from the caves in waziristan being supplied to Taliban rebels. ISI has taken direct hits, Pakistan Army HQ attacked, ISI bus bombed, regional HQ bombed.”
—if Indians does this, they must be crazy lunatics. I hope they do not and it just does not make sense in any way except in Rehman Malik and your analysis. So Indian Army machine guns tells Indian involvement in pakistan? Even taliban have access to US military laptops. Do not be so naïve.

Finally India helps or not, Baloch cause is as genuine as Kashmiri causem—not a cent less.

@Whom one could trust:
Indian PM Singh who says Pakistan should quit terrorism as tool and India will go an extra mile and he does not say Kashmir is non-issue. Singh did that with Bangladesh already when Hasina said B’desh soil will not be used against India. He gave lot in return more than she wished.

Pakistan says LeT is non-state actor, means no control over them (contrary to the fact that LeT are Pakistani nationals and Mumbai case is one clear case in this) but India should talk over core issues. I do not know how Pakistan will take care of anti-India terrorism if LeT et al non-state? May be you can explain.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

Hi friends,

Why we need third party to get involved in our land. Tell me frankly, if you have any problem in your home, will you go and ask your neighbourhood man to solve it. Kashmir is internal part of India; even Pakistan doesn’t have any rights to speak about. Instead of looking Kashmir, please try to develop your country. Bomb blasting have became a daily routine activities. There is no future for your country, unless you wake up now.
We will sort our internal problems, please save your country and make South-Asian region as peaceful one.

Posted by Udumalaihero | Report as abusive
 

Umair says:

GW:
“It just seems and feels that kaffirs’s lives are worthless to you Pakistani’s at least the educated ones with computers who frequent this blog.”

-Let me translate a verse from the Holy Quran:
-A person who saves one human life is equals of saving the whole humkanity. A person who takes one human life equals of killing the whole humanity.
Sorry, you never tried to learn about Islam and no muslim probably including me ever sincerely tried to present you what Islam truly stands for. Do some of your own research rather than asking questions from others find your own answers. Probably you can find truth.
Posted by Umairpk

–>Umair, I know those verses well from the blessed Quaran. Unfortunately, your Army does not and neither does your precious strategic depth proxy war assets, ie LeT and Afghan Taliban. It has brought war on innocent India in 1965, 1971, Kashmir Proxy War and Kargil and many other times. How does the holy Quran judge Pakistan, these strategic proxy armies and the way they all acted towards Indians and continue to promise death to Indians?

Please speak sensibly and honestly, no double speaking, no stories and no bull. I got you nailed on this one.

There is not one in Pakistan practicing this verse, perhaps a few, like the Ahmadiyas, but they are a down trodden people, like second class citizens.

You are damn right, we need to talk Umair. You can start by putting all of your guns away, including the hidden ones under the table, the ones straped to your ankles, ie Strategic Proxy war assets.

Blunt and frank honesty must be a part of conversations and coming to terms with ones past is the only way to liberate shame, lies, duplicity and double talk.

The world is thirsting for honesty from Pakistan. True courage and strength lies in honesty. Only then talks can happen.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

If a plebescite is to be given to Kashmiris, then a precedent should be set, a Plebescite should also be given to Balochis and the Pashto Pathan Nation as well.

After all, fair is fair. Pakistani’s should be careful what they ask for, they may get more than they bargained for, Plebescite on Kashmir may precipate disintegration of Pakistan.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

“Dara the fact is they dont need to as they have enought targets in India. Once they have achieved there local objectives only than they will enhance there operation speheres.”

If you have read my comment in context you would have also read what I said there “Most, the vast majority of the population of India condemns their activities most vehemently, and you know it. Now lets hear you say that about your own fundamentalists – state or non sate.”
That is the issue. Not that Indian fundamentalists are innocent angels but that they are openly condemned by the vast majority of Indians and the government. No one takes refuge in calling them state and non-state actors.That is what was being discussed with Umair. Have you heard even one Indian here talk in support of these people? How many Pakistanis here condemn militant activities without giving out pompous excuses of non state actors and the like?

Are you even willing to admit that Islamic militants and their organisations in Pakistan are guilty of the same crimes that you accuse Indian fundamntalists of? Let’s hear you Magic786.

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive
 

@LeT is no different than RSS, VHP Sangh pariwar, Shiv Sena, all these are different sides of the same cion. Do not hide behind curtain come out in open, don’t be a liar hypocrite with double standards.”
—Umairpk

Umair: Let us come out in open. I condemn all Hindu radical groups including the ones which you do not even know and nor their agendas. Shiv Sena targets people like me from North India, just to add to your knowledge. You already know how much I love LeT!!!!

What is your stand. Want to come out in open without ifs and buts. I can give you a lot ifs and buts for Hindu radicals if you get into these games. Let us see you practicing the verse you cited.

I heard you admire LeT as equal to Nelsen Mandela and then also said LeT is no different than RSS, VHP Sangh pariwar, Shiv Sena.

It appears you are saying all these Indian groups are also like Mandela. Good we have a tiny fraction of people like you in India who support these radical groups.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

@Umair: I’ll just respond to one of your statements since other’s have responded to your comments & I don’t wanna be redundant.

@”Its only Indians calling LeT being supported by Pakistani state”

I’ll just refer LeT’s, wikipedia page, for your reading pleasure. Hopefully, that’ll clarify what the world thinks of LeT (not just Indians):

“It was formed in 1990 with the blessings and design of the then Pakistani Army chief General Mirza Aslam Baig and the Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif. The newly formed organization was assured supply of arms as well as veterans left over from the anti-Soviet Afghan War of the 1980s, as well as access to the training camps which were used to train the Afghan Mujahideen in the 1980s.

Most of these training camps were located in North-West Frontier Province (NWFP) and many were shifted to Azad Kashmir for the sole purpose of training volunteers for the Kashmir Jihad. From 1991 onwards, militancy surged in Indian Kashmir, as many Lashkar-e-Taiba volunteers, mostly village youth from Pakistan’s Punjab province, were infiltrated into Indian Kashmir from the Azad Kashmir with the help of the Pakistan Army and ISI. For many years it was no secret that Lashkar-e-Taiba’s second headquarters were at the HQ of the 12th Infantry Division of the Pakistan Army, which was based in Azad Kashmir.

U.S. intelligence officials believe that Pakistan’s main intelligence agency, the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI), continues to give LeT intelligence help and protection.[11]“

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

@Do not hide behind curtain come out in open, don’t be a liar hypocrite with double standards.”
–Umairpk

After getting detailed responses to your call to come out in open, where are you now: under the couch or in the bunker….lol

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

slightly off topic

Another lie perpetuated by Pakis busted by their own newspaper. India is not stealing Paki water.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jk-kbSKoy Og

Posted by chirkutpappu | Report as abusive
 

Once again, those who pretend to fight for Kashmiri cause and those who worry religious fundamentalism in India and the hypocrisy have vanished into thin air!!!

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

A simple question for my friends in India:
Why would India not agree to an outside mediator on Kashmir: specially when it thinks its case is based on internationally recognized principles?

Posted by Uddin | Report as abusive
 

Simply they dont have any grounds to argue front of international observers…why Kashmir is part of India?

So its best and suits idiots not have someone who can see who wants peace who does not. All their negative tactics exposed but than they go running to saudis to put some kind of pressure on Pakistan… bit of contradiction on one side they dont want except for billateral talks but than when they feel Pakistan not budging till we move from “lets talk about talks”. They have to go and beg in saudi to ask their close friend to stop.

Posted by Magic786 | Report as abusive
 

@A simple question for my friends in India:
Why would India not agree to an outside mediator on Kashmir: specially when it thinks its case is based on internationally recognized principles?
Posted by Uddin

Uddin: Fair question.

1)It is the case of Kashmir, not of India
2)It is UN-based and asking 3rd party does not mean the same.

UNSCR has asked both Pakistan and India to resolve issues peacefully and withdrawal of forces—overt and covert by either side is a natural first step that Pakistan ignores. It will be naive to expect that 3rd party will solve anything. 3rd party interference anywhere is beginning of irreversible new problems without solving the old ones. I am sure you understand that you will not talk to your neighbor for peace if he comes with a gun. It is a reasonable expectation to drop violence before peace can be discussed.

Magic786: I am going to ignore you until you answer my questions on Kashmir (12th reminder to you).

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

Post Your Comment

We welcome comments that advance the story through relevant opinion, anecdotes, links and data. If you see a comment that you believe is irrelevant or inappropriate, you can flag it to our editors by using the report abuse links. Views expressed in the comments do not represent those of Reuters. For more information on our comment policy, see http://blogs.reuters.com/fulldisclosure/2010/09/27/toward-a-more-thoughtful-conversation-on-stories/
  •