India and Pakistan on the U.S. see-saw

March 26, 2010

wagah2Few who follow South Asia could miss the symbolism of two separate developments in the past week –  in one Pakistan was cosying up to the United States in a new “strategic dialogue”; in the other India was complaining to Washington about its failure to provide access to David Headley, the Chicago man accused of helping to plan the 2008 attack on Mumbai.

Ever since the London conference on Afghanistan in January signalled an exit strategy which could include reconciliation with the Taliban, it has been clear that Pakistan’s star has been rising in Washington while India’s has been falling. 

If the United States wants to force the Taliban to the negotiating table, it needs Pakistan’s help. And Pakistan has shown by arresting Taliban commander Mullah Abdul Ghani Baradar amongst others that it intends to keep control of any negotiations. In return for its cooperation, it expects Washington’s help in securing Pakistan’s own interests, including through a scaling back of India’s involvement in Afghanistan.

By contrast, the relationship between India and the United States which blossomed under the Bush administration has been fading as Washington looks to China and Pakistan to help meet respectively its economic and security needs. An initial outpouring of sympathy and international support for India following the Mumbai attack  - which led to intense pressure on Pakistan to crack down on the Lashkar-e-Taiba militant group blamed for the assault – has dissipated over time.

Nowadays the mantra in Washington is that India and Pakistan must talk to each other to resolve their differences. Pakistan, after initially cracking down on the Lashkar-e-Taiba, eased the pressure on the group in the second part of 2009. India suspects the Lashkar-e-Taiba is not only active again but may have been involved in last month’s attack in Kabul which targeted Indian interests. If true, this would suggest that Lashkar-e-Taiba is acting in conformity with the interests of the Pakistan Army, which is deeply sensitive about India’s growing presence in Afghanistan following the fall of the Pakistan-backed Taliban in 2001.

To rewind briefly, it has always been unclear how far the Pakistan Army and its Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) agency could go in dismantling the Punjab-based militant group it once nurtured to fight India in Kashmir. While few doubt it could shut down the Lashkar-e-Taiba if it chose to do so, the risk has been that action against an organisation which has been scrupulous in avoiding attacks within Pakistan itself would shatter it into splinter groups which would make common cause with al Qaeda and the Pakistani Taliban. A raid on the Pakistan Army’s own headquarters last October highlighted just how vulnerable the country could be to an alliance between militants in its tribal areas bordering Afghanistan and those based in its heartland Punjab province.

So the debate amongst analysts has been whether relative inaction against the Lashkar-e-Taiba has been driven by self-preservation or a desire on the part of the ISI to retain the group’s operational capacity to use it against India. Islamabad is convinced India’s own intelligence agency, the Research and Analysis Wing (R&AW), is using Afghanistan as a base to destabilise Pakistan, particularly by funding separatists in its Baluchistan province.  Any evidence of Lashkar-e-Taiba’s involvement in the Kabul attack would therefore reinforce suspicions that the Pakistan Army is still using it as part of a proxy war between the two countries’ intelligence agencies. (Both countries deny the accusations levelled at each other’s intelligence agencies.)

 One person who might be able to shed light on the relationship between the ISI and the Lashkar-e-Taiba is Headley,  accused of working closely with the militant group in planning the Mumbai attack. And that is precisely why India is so suspicious of the U.S. reluctance to grant Indian investigators access to him.

Now to return to Washington’s policy towards India and Pakistan. The United States has been at pains to insist that improved relations with one country is not at the expense of the other - although in the zero sum game mindset prevalent in South Asia that is likely to be the way it is perceived.

The worry on India’s part is that in its haste to find a solution to Afghanistan, Washington will grab whatever help it can get even if this means putting Pakistan’s interests first. That could also mean giving priority to action against the Afghan Taliban while turning a blind eye to anti-India groups like the Lashkar-e-Taiba, as it has been accused of doing in the past.

The enthusiastic reception given to Pakistan Army head General Ashfaq Kayani in Washington this week - belying earlier U.S. promises to nurture democracy - has already raised concerns about a tilt towards the military which has traditionally taken a harder line on India than civilian governments.

“… in its search for an exit route from the quagmire of Afghanistan, the Obama administration is in danger of becoming over-dependent on Pakistan,” the Hindu newspaper says in an editorial.  ”The presence of Pakistan’s army and intelligence chiefs at the strategic dialogue underlined the abnormality of the situation. Terrorism and extremist politics in the AfPak region are mainly the product of the Pakistani military establishment, which nurtured and patronised jihadi groups as a force multiplier. Despite this, a solution is now being sought by valorising and even strengthening the role of this establishment at the expense of Pakistan’s civilian structures of governance.”

Pakistan, on its part, has bitter experience of being used to further the U.S. agenda in ways which are not necessarily good for its own long-term interests – notably when it worked with the CIA to support the mujahideen fighting the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan from 1979-1989, and then found itself left to handle the blowback of Islamist militancy alone when the Americans lost interest in the region and left.

 If its new-found popularity with Washington comes at the price of a narrow focus on following U.S. interests, it could once again find itself at the losing end of the bargain.

Pakistan, writes Ayesha Siddiqa in Dawn, really needs to decide for itself the kind of country it wants,  its type of government and its attitude to militant groups long seen as strategic assets against India. “We have been keeping some of the ‘strategic assets’ because of the Pakistani military’s concern for India’s nefarious activities in Afghanistan. Let’s say that we manage to convince the U.S. to give us a role in Afghanistan where we could ensure our larger strategic interests. Would we then be willing to shut down the jihad machine?” she asks.

“Pakistan’s internal dialogue would require an assessment of how far it can go in using force to draw benefits and estimating strategic benefits and costs. While it must aim for gaining a foothold in Afghanistan to secure its position, a policy to force other neighbours out would prove counter-productive. It would help if Islamabad combined the acquisition of a role in Afghanistan with multilateral assurances that India or any other country would not threaten its core interests.”

One of the more obvious ways for India and Pakistan to get off the U.S. see-saw – where when one is up, the other comes crashing down – would be for them to take control over their own relationship. 

Both India and Pakistan have an interest in a stable Afghanistan. This is not Kashmir, whose disputed status goes right to the heart of both countries’ identities - Islamic Pakistan first laid claim to Muslim Kashmir on religious grounds back in 1947;  secular India says Kashmir’s fate cannot be determined on the basis of religion.  Afghanistan has however been a battleground for a proxy war for decades, run by intelligence agencies whose activities have probably been far bettter known to Washington than to the people of either India or Pakistan.

But finding common ground on Afghanistan would require both countries to build on the dialogue which began last month when India invited Pakistan’s foreign secretary to talks in New Delhi.  The alternative – as amply demonstrated over the past week – would be to leave it to Washington to set the agenda.

(Photo: India-Pakistan border checkpoint at Wagah, near Lahore)

Comments

This analysis ignores the fact that the horse (pakistani army) has bolted the stable. Kayani and the army have never shown any desire to build dialog – yes Musharraf did but that was in his garb as President. The US under Obama has narrowed the agenda considerably – it has all but given up on the “good war” and has come to the conclusion, arguably incorrectly, that the war in Afghanistan is unwinnable and only the Pakistani army can “deliver” the Taliban – as indeed they have done with selective alacrity. The unseemly way in which General Kayani was treated as the de-facto head of state during his visit (his family was hosted at New York’s Waldorf Astoria hotel at the Pentagon’s expense – the only thing missing was a Sax Fifth Avenue carte blance) only attests to this “new” thinking.

Finally, the Pakistani army does not “have an interest in a stable Afghanistan” – instability has always been their raison d’etre and is more so than ever now.

Posted by nychotpilot | Report as abusive
 

India has seen much worse in the past. When the war against the USSR happened, Pakistan really had everything going in its favor. The US simply told India to take a big royal hike. The US completely ignored all the clandestine nuclear development going on inside Pakistan, just so that it could get its objectives met. Now the same US waged a war against Saddam Hussein on flimsy grounds and is threatening to strike at Iran. Pakistan has everything the US accused Iraq of – WMD, Islamic terrorism and nuclear proliferation. And the US decided to keep Pakistan as its ally and attack Afghanistan. Had they attacked Pakistan in 2001 instead, a lot of good would have come out of it.

India knows the US well and has not shown much reliance on it for geo-political issues. American strategists have their own selfish goals and they only cozy up when they need something to reach their goals fast. India has been facing Islamic militancy since 1989. And it was much worse in the past than now. So nothing is going to make India shiver if the US decides to dance with Pakistan.

What has changed over the course of all this is Pakistan itself. It has become poorer and has become more vulnerable against its own radical Islamists. Now Taliban has begun to cozy up with India because its leaders realize that Pakistan cannot be trusted. Taliban has issued a statement recently that it has nothing against India and it only objects to India’s co-operation with the Western forces and its support of Karzai. These things can change and it looks like the Taliban might like to win India towards its side from the Northern alliance. This is what is going to make the proxy war in Afghanistan interesting. This explains why Pakistan has been desperate to throw India out of that country. But the Americans cannot do much on this. They have to at least pretend that they respect the sovereignty of Afghanistan. So if anyone has to throw out of Afghanistan, it is Afghan government. Karzai will not do it. And it looks like the Taliban may not either. Taliban might use India as a trump card against Pakistan’s arm twisting.

Pakistan has set itself in a dangerous situation by screwing the Taliban twice. What the Americans do is becoming immaterial for the future of the region. Everyone is waiting for them to pack their bags and leave. Already there is enough interest arising about the aftermath of American departure. At that time Pakistan will complain that Americans left them high and dry. That’s because Afghanistan this time will be different and might be hostile to Pakistan’s interests. And India will be used to irritate Pakistan more.

So if Pakistan wants peaceful co-existence, they should think on what they should to reconcile with India. Otherwise the future in Afghanistan is not going to be in Pakistan’s favor. The Americans may not care.

This article is wrong about America cozying up with China. Recently Beijing has been vocal about arming Taiwan and Dalai Lama’s visit with Obama. And the two countries are arguing about the Chinese currency. Google pulled out of China. So things are not so cozy as portrayed.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Myra when you mention that ISI ‘once’ nurtured LeT to fight in Kashmir, are you implying that it is no longer true? I find that hard to believe. More so after all the evidence recently come to light in the Headley case.

In your reporting in the FACTBOX on the LeT, in Nov 09, however, it is said ‘It is seen as close to the army and its Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) agency.’

Isn’t there a contradiction somewhere?

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive
 

India’s problem is Pakistan and that is unlikely to change in a hurry. There are many options to deal with troublesome neighbours and none should be forfeited until there is a fundamental shift in ground realities. India cannot depend on US goodwill to further its national objectives.

US has many strengths but it also has severe limitations that include lack of financial and military resources and a political system that seeks instant solutions to eternal problems. It will rely on anyone, including Pakistan, to cut its losses. Its exit from Afghanistan with few objectives accomplished will help to highlight its weaknesses and hasten its march towards irrelevance in world affairs.

Af-Pak is a US problem and India should not try to become part of that problem. Pakistan’s meddling in Afghanistan cannot be wished away. Depending on Pakistan’s response to Indian concerns, India must work to increase Pakistan’s comfort or discomfort levels in Afghanistan.

So long as Indians remain in Afghanistan to do whatever, India needs to maintain adequate security forces and other means to protect them.

Posted by Chinki | Report as abusive
 

” Af-Pak is a US problem and India should not try to become part of that problem. Pakistan’s meddling in Afghanistan cannot be wished away. Depending on Pakistan’s response to Indian concerns, India must work to increase Pakistan’s comfort or discomfort levels in Afghanistan.”

India lost out big time once the Soviets were defeated in Afghanistan. Until the time of Najeebullah, India had some relationship there. The Taliban went in there and killed him off. India’s presence was brought to a naught. Pakistan turned Afghanistan into its own extension and began to use the Taliban there to provide itself a strategic depth. Pakistan had grand plans. Kargil was only a feeler to prod and see Indian response. More was to come with Afghanistan as the background. Pakistan was going to shift all its terrorist training camps into the lawless regions of Afghanistan and launch its offensive against India from there. And the plan was to attract elements from across the world – Central Asia, Indonesia and even countries like UK and the USA and launch them into Kashmir. India was at the receiving end at that time because there was no way it could retaliate. The hijacking of an Indian plane from Nepal and the release of terrorists happened in Kandahar. Those terrorists were allowed to roam free inside Pakistan. That blow to the Indians motivated a lot more Jihadi elements and made them bolder.

India found a foot hold when the Northern Alliance began to fight the Taliban. But they could not really drive them out of Afghanistan. Taliban was supported by Pak military and no one could push them back. Bin Laden finally began to do his own thing and that messed up all of Pakistan’s grand plan. Musharraf was into subterfuge big time. The Americans bombed the Taliban out of Afghanistan and India quickly got back in. And India has learned the way to win trust. It has engaged in constructive missions – building hospitals, schools, roads, dams etc and the public see what they do. This will make Indian presence strengthened. Afghans remember Pakistan only as a supporter of wars and terror strikes. They do not love Pakistanis as much as Pakistan believes.

India has gained a lot more compared to before inside Afghanistan. It always has the Northern Alliance on its side. Karzai is a friend of India. Pashtuns are sitting on the wall. They could go either way. They have seen Pakistani military’s duplicity and might not want to rely on them in the future. The Taliban itself is signing a different tune now. They don’t want wars anymore. They just want to rule Afghanistan. And Pakistan wants more than that. They want the Taliban to provide the same privileges that they had before with them and it may not happen again.

So they understand that to launch a huge campaign against India (call it the Musharraf grand plan), India’s presence has to be reduced to naught like before. Therefore all this campaign of Indian missions inside Afghanistan, TTP being sponsored by the RAW and overt begging to the US to reduce India’s presence.

India needs to be present in Afghanistan to prevent Pakistan from hijacking Afghanistan again, like it did in the 1990s. And India has done well in this regard.
Pakistan has made the next move right away. It has begun to arrest key Taliban elements that might work against its interests. The gullible Americans are heaping praise for Pakistan’s change of heart etc. But they have desperate need to get out before it is too late and Pakistan is trying to capitalize on it.

India has to hold firm and stay in Afghanistan. They cannot afford to get out under pressure. Pakistan is trying to activate LeT, Babbar Khalsa etc to launch their offensives inside India to push its objectives as time is running out. Just by staying put and taking the shock, India will gain big time in the region. This will help contain Pakistan and India has no choice but to do what it does. This is a big arm-wrestling game and India cannot afford to blink at this time.

“So long as Indians remain in Afghanistan to do whatever, India needs to maintain adequate security forces and other means to protect them.”

I am sure things are being taken care of.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Pakistanis are way too emotional. The Americans might be exploiting that weakness. The recent orgy in Washington to make Qureshi and Kayani happy might be to make Pakistan more comfortable and then milk it to get the American objectives met. Otherwise Pakistan might become a hindrance to accomplish the goal. Pakistanis might be thinking they are taking the Americans for a ride and vice versa.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

” it has been clear that Pakistan’s star has been rising in Washington while India’s has been falling. ”

-This is a game of high stakes for Pakistan and it has shown a remarkeable tendency to manouver things around and reposition itself according to the rapidly changing geo-political dynamics of the region. What has shoked the Indians is the ability of Pakistan to outsmart them, Indians had written Pakistan off as a failed state. On the other hand in Pakistan there were plans in the works, things were happening despite the usual media reports of daily terrorist incidents. For example, the military and civil leadership of the country showed resilience, resolve and workmanship during the crisis period of 2007-09. Refugees were taken care of, terrorists were smoked out of their havens. In reality Pakistan never did lost control of the situation always planning to come out a step ahead. Despite showing persistently failing symptoms, Pakistan has shown the remarkable ability to come back from the brink and get back on its feet.
America will not loose interest in Pakistan, over the decades Pakistan has worked to create its niche. A combination of nuclear weapons, efficient and trained military, big muslim population and its relations with China and position in Muslim world, a resolve by Al-Qaeda to make the Af-Pak region the nerve center of its activities all factors make Pakistan crucial to America’s own security.
In return, Pakistan suffers from few disadvantages compared to its bigger neighbour. A poor geography surrounded with hostile states and lack of strategic depth. Pakistan needs to have relationship with a super power be it China or US. This shows the background on the recent US-Pakistan strategic dialogue. Now that Pakistan is back in the game, India must prepare itself for the longhaul. For Pakistan could look as being down in the drain one day, and come out firing on full cylinders right on top of the world on the very next day.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Let’s put things in perspective, what Pakistan did in Kashmir is exactly what the Indians did East Pakistan and are doing the same in Baluchistan by supporting Baloch militant groups based in Afghanistan.
Fact: India has 16 consulates in Afghanistan all along the Pakistan border. This fact alone is enough to raise suspisions of Indian invlovement in the current unrest in Pakistan. Majority of pakistanis trust the current military leadership than the corrupt politicians sitting in Islamabad and the Americans know that too

Posted by jb2010 | Report as abusive
 

KPSingh01:
“Just by staying put and taking the shock, India will gain big time in the region.”

-This is the difference, I pointed out Pakistan’s tendency to manouver things around and you advocate an approach by India to maintain status quo no matter how the region changes. India is a big country and might well absorb any shocks in Afghanistan. But in the long run it’s strategic outreach will suffer. For example at this stage if India becomes sincere and sends its foreign secretary to Islamabad for the second round of talks and both achieve some sort of breakthrough that would set the momentum going. I told you, for Pakistan this is a high stakes game. the stakes have never been higher, onus is on India. You come to the party or else, US will dictate the terms.

“So if Pakistan wants peaceful co-existence, they should think on what they should to reconcile with India. Otherwise the future in Afghanistan is not going to be in Pakistan’s favor. ”

-Sounds like a vieled threat? eh. peaceful co-existence or else? reconcile with India? why and under what terms? or else the consequences in Afghanistan?
Ok, let me put it straight one by one, peaceful co-existence is guranteed since Pakistan has nuclear weapons to deter external aggression. Future in Afganistan is going to be in Pakistan’s favour both because an efficient ISI neutralizing Indian threats and preventing strategic encirclement. Choice is yours, either you come to the party or else suck it up all. And kee

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Its not that simple. The huge amount of aid that goes to Pakistan, the free arms and f-16s they get is way too lucrative for the US army and its contractors. In the name of proviing ‘help’ to fight the terrorists, billions of American taxpayers money mysteriously dissapears when it reaches Pakistan. The KL bill tried to stop this and it was stricken down.
I dont want to accuse the US army generals and Pentagon as a whole without any proof but this whole scenario looks shady. This is billions we are talking about and in our naeivite all we do is blame the corrupt Pakistan politicians without knowing actually who is benefiting and pocketing.
They tried to shift this lucrative industry to Africa and some other places last year, when it seemed that Pakistan was going down. Even some Al-quaeda bases were found and bombed here and there but ultimately Pentagon found the good old Pakistan more reliable for their base.

The main question is: how will the arms industry in USa run if US troops are actually pulled back from Afghanistan as Obama has promised and the enemy (taliban) is destroyed. How will they get billions of dollars to give and gift from the US commitees. Where will they conduct live experiments of thier latest bombs and machinary. How will the US create trouble to the countries surrounding Pakistan (China/ Russia/ India/ Iran) without its troops in Afghanistan. How will they control the drug mafia in Afghanistan. Maybe by next year they would have created another flashpoint to benefit from, maybe Iran this time.

Posted by SunilKumar | Report as abusive
 

Pakistan: Now or Never??

Never, I guess

Posted by SunilKumar | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk: “I pointed out Pakistan’s tendency to manouver things around and you advocate an approach by India to maintain status quo no matter how the region changes.”

This is not something to be proud about. Maneuvering and manipulating all the time resembles a boat with a hole rocking about in the waves with no sail or rudder. And people are running from one end to the other, plugging the leaks, shifting weight to keep the boat afloat. There is nothing to be proud of. From time to time Pakistan switches from playing the victim to becoming the best strategic partner. And comparisons are made with India for the smartness whenever ammunition and weapons are donated. I understand that Pakistan is your country and as its citizen you are standing by whatever your country is doing. It is all right with me. But as an outsider in your neighboring country, your rocking boat causes damages to my country. It should either be sunk or given a new boat to float on. Unfortunately those who run your boat resemble contraband smugglers and pirates. So we not only have to worry about an unstable boat in our vicinity, we also have to consider those who are running it. On top of that your boat is trying to take down every other ship and boat in the vicinity. Hope I have made my stand clear here. India may be a rusty ship, but it is huge and has managed to float to safety. And your country has been trying to drag it back by throwing its anchor on the deck of our ship. We are trying to jettison it. In the meantime the Americans in their jet boats and cruisers come in the middle and try to find their way through to sink another boat called Al Qaeda and Taliban. Their jet boats cause excessive waves and rock everything in the neighborhood.

“India is a big country and might well absorb any shocks in Afghanistan. But in the long run it’s strategic outreach will suffer. For example at this stage if India becomes sincere and sends its foreign secretary to Islamabad for the second round of talks and both achieve some sort of breakthrough that would set the momentum going.”

Talks with Pakistan have been done over decades and they led to no end. There was always another party inside Pakistan that ran its own agenda and talks became a facade to show the rest of the world that something was being done. In the meantime Pakistan has used that time to prepare for the next round of sabotage and try to milk the Western countries by playing victim. Indians are familiar with this game. And we do not trust your country for that reason. May be our diplomats can sit and talk about cricket and Mohammed Rafi songs. There is no use talking about anything else. They have led to no end.

“I told you, for Pakistan this is a high stakes game. the stakes have never been higher, onus is on India.”

Pakistan should stop playing games. That is the point. This is not a cricket or hockey game. This is serious and deals with the livelihood of innocent people and nations. India basically wants nothing from Pakistan. We have only seen trouble from your nation, Mumbai attacks being the last one. And we are reacting as a result. Your country has no right whatsoever telling us what we should do in Afghanistan while overtly running insurgency inside Kashmir and sponsoring anti-Indian terrorist groups. If India comes into Pakistan, you can tell us get out. Afghanistan is a sovereign nation and your country has no rights to tell India or anyone what they should. Stop playing regional power. No one, other than Pakistani think Pakistan is worth anything.

“You come to the party or else, US will dictate the terms.”

US told your delegation that it will not meddle with Kashmir. US did not give your country drones that Kayani begged for. “Non-Discriminatory” nuclear technology was not promised. Hillary simply said they will see what they would do. Since Pakistan’s nuclear proliferation records are exemplary this will remain a dream. Pakistan got some F16s and a nice dinner. And tell me what has the US dictated in the past to India and what was the outcome of it. US even declined to include Kashmir in the Af-Pak equation when India objected to it. Americans will not mess with India because there is a lot of business involved. And they worked hurriedly to get the civilian nuclear deal through even though India exploded nuclear devices in the 1990s.

No one, other than the Pakistanis, see India as an equal to Pakistan. So the problem lies with Pakistanis. India can decide who it wants to have diplomatic relations with and who it should not. Afghanistan is a very strategic place as far as India is concerned. And it is not going to make way to Pakistan to take the whole place for itself. Pakistan is most welcome have its own diplomatic relations with Afghanistan. But it cannot be at the expense of that of India. And the Americans have not told Indians to get out. Even the Taliban is warming up to India saying they have nothing against India. So wake up and smell the coffee.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Mr KPSingh01, “Even Taliban are warming up to India” well of course they are, they are partly funded by India! In all these comments Indians fail to point out all the dirty games played RAW and other Indian intelligence.

Posted by jb2010 | Report as abusive
 

LMAO at Umair.

This is episode 2. 1st was 1979-1989, Russian exit and Zia gone.

Pakistanis are suddenly feeling the rush of hormones. Buddy just ask Kayani not to accept Mango box as gift from USA after the US/NATO withdraws, if u know what I mean.

No matter what US or anyone else does, Pakistan will remain to be seen as an enemy of Afghans, now even more reason. It is hard to enjoy party in a company of one;s enemies who are friends to each other. This is all neagtive strategies and nothing to do with how Pakistan has changed to fix itself so as to be seen as a positive force. Crooks just cannot change. Old habits die hard.

@USA/Obama and peace prize. Mark my words that down the history the Nobel prize committee will get up and give a statement that the Obama’s nobel peace prize was the worst decision ever.

If Bush was stupid, Obama is shaping out to be quite an idiot. Same old policies. Iran is still out of the loop just because of US’s relationship. Does it not ring the bell of pre-9/11 days US policies about this region.

It is like US came to Af-pak, disturbed the hell out of the region, got US and international soldiers killed, worsened the situation, created terrorists, ignored other terroists to get the support of crooks, now begging for help and is ready to take the help of those same old crooks that created this mess.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

JB2010

“Fact: India has 16 consulates in Afghanistan all along the Pakistan border. This fact alone is enough to raise suspisions of Indian invlovement in the current unrest in Pakistan”

Forget 16, can you name even 8 locations and how long they have been established?

Ok and check this out JB2010…India has 5 consulates in Afghanistan – Kabul, Herat, Jalalbad, Mazar – e Sharif and Kandhahar. Moreover these have been there for the last 50 years or so as far as I know.

Also check this out… Pakistan also has 5 consulates – in the same 5 places.

Where do you get your “FACTS” from?

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive
 

JB 2010

“In all these comments Indians fail to point out all the dirty games played RAW and other Indian intelligence.”

More gossip again. If Indians fail to point out, why doesnt the Pakistani Govt do it or why don’t you come out with some more ‘facts’? When asked to provide some kind of collaboration, Rehman Mallik said he wants the Indian Home Minister to come out to Pakistan and he will give him proof. hasn’t Mr Mallik heard of Couriers, dossiers, postal system and the diplomatic bag to send his proof? Or is it hidden in gold bricks that he wants to protect them?

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive
 

Since Pakistan’s star is rising, will someone please let us know what came out finally from the strategic talks other than a few millions for energy and the like which itself is part of the main 6.5 Bn package?

Or is it all top secret and only meant for the ISI to know and fatten their pockets?

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive
 

Umair,

It’s quite ridiculous that you take pride in “Pakistan’s remarkable tendency to maneuver things” which in reality is nothing but the deceitful & duplicitous nature of your generals to play it both ways & change sides at the drop of a hat to suit their needs.
For how long will they keep playing these dirty games & keep selling them as ‘victories’ to gullible & brain-washed jingos like you? This ‘victory’ which you’re so quick to claim has got nothing to do with your generals ‘out-smarting’ India or anyone else but rather with the fact that Obama is stupid enough to consider withdrawing from Afghanistan rather pre-maturely. But the game isn’t over yet so don’t start celebrating too soon.
Instead of being proud of this ‘remarkable maneuvering’, please wake up to the fact that the very same people you’re so proud of, have bankrupted your country & reduced it to a basket-case nation rife with radicalization, illiteracy & unemployment. You’re so blinded by the fake pride of Pakistan’s “military achievements” & “strategic maneuvering” that you don’t even seem to care about the much more important issues like economy, literacy etc.

@ “You come to the party or else, US will dictate the terms”

If you think that US & India share the same ‘master-slave’ relation as that of US & Pakistan, you’re quite mistaken. US-India relations are based on common & genuine long term interests which are varied in nature & not just short term strategic interests. US can’t & won’t dictate anything to India. In fact, if anything India’s voice is getting louder in America.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

“Fact: India has 16 consulates in Afghanistan all along the Pakistan border. This fact alone is enough to raise suspisions of Indian invlovement in the current unrest in Pakistan”
Posted by jb2010

I think you need to look up the meaning of the word “Fact” in a dictionary because what your madrasaa teacher taught you as the meaning of the word “fact” is actually called “lies” in reality.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

I stand corrected there are 107 Indian consulates (terror networks) in Afghanistan. http://rupeenews.com/2008/09/29/107-indi an-consulates-in-afghanistan-spreading-t error-to-pakistan/

India for years have been formenting terror in sri lanka, Nepal and Bangladesh. Indians live their pipe dream of competing with china and have sold the idea to west that they can contain china. Maybe the Indians have fogotton the 63 war!

Posted by jb2010 | Report as abusive
 

However, the next war between India and Pakistan will not be on Kashmir but will on water rights! Since India is bent on building dams and violating previous water treaties.

Posted by jb2010 | Report as abusive
 

BJ2010 j
umps from 16 consulates to 107 in less than 24 hrs. Not surprising since his source is Rupee news. A product of Moin Ansari’s brain washing factory for Pakistani children. Keep watching this space to-morrow it will jump to 1007!

If you had just gone down to the next site in your search list you would have got the FACTS which you seem allergic to:
http://www.embassiesabroad.com/embassies -in/Afghanistan

Now to the next topic on the rumour mill. Which dam and what violation of the water treaty? Why not share your detailed investigation report? Another non- issue that Pakistan conjures up. Give them time, in a few moths there will 107 core issues and reasons for going to war.

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive
 

I truly like Pakistani logic for blaming Indians with the unrest in Pakistan and some extent Afghanistan. Just because there are consulates, then “Indians must be fueling terror”.

Show us real evidence, not just fake Indian labels and weapons with made in India stamped on them, which could easily be made in any Pathan gun market, or even Pakistan itself.

Find an Indian Ajmal Kasab, or find an Indian version of Headley…give us something…the fact is Pakistani’s have nothing, that is why you are truly scared of us.

Indians have the numbers, the patience, ingenuity, brainpower the cash and truth on our side. Yes, India will encircle the region, through its good works, using non-military, non-terrorist means. We will bring all manners of good works, to benefit anyone who wants our help, so I don’t know how that is called terrorism, or terror cells.

JB2010, please offer true real proof, instead of making fake, baseless claims on conjecture and dreamland thinking. That is the problem with Pakistan, you people often dream up many things and have such an overactive imagination, that those fictitious thoughts in your head are more real and truthful to you than the actual truth.

Pakistani’s have enmity with truth, logic, proof and sanity. India will one day swallow up Pakistan, only because we are doing it the right way, through good works.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

“I stand corrected there are 107 Indian consulates (terror networks) in Afghanistan. http://rupeenews.com/2008/09”
Posted by jb2010

ROFL! So this is your source? The rupeenews edited by the venom-spewing, hate-mongering & fact-twisting Moin Ansari. No wonder you’re so delusional & misguided, my friend. This piece of fallacious crap that you read has absolutely no credibility outside the ‘warped’ section of Pakistan, so just keep to yourself. I actually have more respect for an illiterate, radicalized Mullah than I have for Mr. Ansari.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Guys,

Communicate only with Umair. The others who are writing nonsense may not be Pakistanis at all. Umair is the only Pakistani on this forum that Indians can discuss with. He has been steady and is somewhat reasonable. The others simply write nonsense and watch the response to their postings from so many Indians who are sincerely answering their idiotic claims. Some might be Indians masquerading as Pakistanis just to have fun. Just ignore their postings if you see the following in their postings:

1. Indians hate Pakistan
2. India has a hundred thousand consulates in Afghanistan.
3. India lost all its wars with Pakistan
4. India has nothing better to do other than sabotage Pakistan.

and so on.

We have seen the same thing repeated over and over again and many Indians are sincerely responding to these mad postings without realizing that many of these postings might be to have a laugh. If you are serious, watch the poster and see how consistent he or she is and respond with serious posters. The others might be teenage kids having fun. The “Report as abusive” does not work at all. In the Guardian blog pages this choice works very well and filters out most of the garbage. Here it has been inserted for namesake purpose.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

@KPSing:
The waters in South Asia are very turbulent, even the best crew would have difficulty in navigating its way negotaition the waves. So no problems if Pakistan messes up some of the time, as long as we stay the course, prevent our nation from imploding and becoming a laughing stock of the rest of the world we should be fine. We will never let anyone drill a hole in the hull and sink the entire ship. Futhermore, you state Taliban are warming up to India stating they have no enmity with India. Who the Taliban get their strategic guidance from? who are their mentors? let me tell you there are someone who are providing Taliban guidance to conduct better foreign policy and it is a sign of their gaining voice. It must rather be a warning sign for India, in other words Taliban are signaling we are coming back in Afghanistan.

@Mortal1:
“the deceitful & duplicitous nature of your generals to play it both ways & change sides at the drop of a hat to suit their needs.”

-Soon after the 9-11 attacks, corps commanders meeting took place in GHQ Rawalpindi. Some of the corps commanders had told then Army chief not to support the US impending attack in Afghanistan, that same story of Soviet occupation will be repeated. Pakistan will give it sweat and blood in return suffer. Still Pakistan supported the US at a huge cost. Today Senator Hillary Clinton said a ‘new page’ has been turned in US-Pakistan relations. It is no more a relationship, it is now a partnership. Who would know better than you, since you yourself have met Senator Clinton and would know her serious attitude. Today the mood in Pakistan is serious, Pakistan Army will not accept any non-sense. If Pakistani generals have been duplicious or manipulative, what had been the US all these years? An unreliable ally. Things are changing for better now.
Remember President Obama had owned the Afghan war, he made a promise to American people to responsibly end the Iraq war and create conditions in Afghanistan to disrupt, dismantle and defeat Al-Qaeda limiting its goals there to what can be realistically achieved. In Pakistan, America sees a capable ally which can deliver. America does not view Pakistan as a failed state, only Indians used to rant that and Americans have been shown by Pakistan that it is capable of going after the terrorists and sustain the losses and emerge victorious. Americans have a long history in dealing with Pakistan, ask them how dumb or how intelligent Pakistanis are. This is why they have chosen to create a strategic relationship with Pakistan based on long-term mutual interest. The Iraq and Afghan wars have taken a dramatic toll on American lives, economy and public. The legacy of these wars will be more painful than Vietnam war for them. That is why Obama has responsibly announced a withdrawal date. And I dont need to go in detail the number of job losses, mortgage and financial crisis, auto-industry bail out, massive trade deficit, weakening dollar, American economy is declining because of these wars in part.

“Instead of being proud of this ‘remarkable maneuvering’, please wake up to the fact that the very same people you’re so proud of, have bankrupted your country & reduced it to a basket-case nation rife with radicalization, illiteracy & unemployment.”

-Farmers in India commit suicides, millions live in poverty suffer hunger and disease and there is widespread corruption, maoist insurgency in India too. Point fingers on Pakistan only in case India is a utopian wonderland. But that is not the case, had India not exploded nuclear device back in 1974 South Asia would have been saved from a costly nuclear and missile arms race, those resources would have gone into better education and healthcare for millions of Indians and Pakistanis. Don’t lecture others on issues like economy and illetracy, for Pakistan military, foreign policy and defense are also equally important issues hand in hand with others.

” In fact, if anything India’s voice is getting louder in America.
-Yes, India is crying wolf loud, but the issue is, does any one hears its voice in America? does anyone take it seriously anymore. You tell Americans Pakistan is a terrorists state, the CIA station chief in Islamabad tells their headquarters thousands of Pakistanis loose their lives due to terrorist incidents on its soil. You tell Americans that Pakistan is a failed state, when American civil and military leaders interact with their Pakistani counterparts they can sense the ability and efficiency. That is why America is directly engaging with Pakistan, I told you from Secretary Clinton, to Secretary Gates, Adm. Mike Mullen, Gen Petraeus, Sen. Mc Cain, Joe Biden, John Kerry, Gen. Mc Chrystal have flown into Islamabad and interacted with Pakistan. That is why Pakistan’s star has steaily risen in Washington, a genuine effort by Pakistan to go after all terrorists, though still Pakistan does not have high expectations. But still it is a start, America is realizing and listening. India must now show sincerety on its part rather than always decieving the world.
Maybe one day India and Pakistan sit down and ‘turn a new page” and start a genuine relationship based on trust and friendship. But that will not happen until you stop baseless allegations on Pakistan and sort out the core issues between us. If Pakistan and America are getting closer, Pakistan and India can bridge their gap too.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

And Guys on the Indian consulates,
I had the rare opportunity in 2003 to listen to a presentation by Col. Amir Imam (Brig. Sultan Amir ISI) famously known as Col. Imam who was Pakistan’s Consul General in Herat when US attacked Afghanistan in 2001. Col. Imam had long trained Mujahideen fighters against Soveits during 80s and worked closely with the Americans. In later Taliban years Col. Imam role greatly shifted. Why Pakistan cannot prove India’s involvement in such activities through its consulates in Afghanistan is that such clandestine activites take place under diplomatic cover by intelligence agencies. When someone is in a particular tradecraft, he knows the tricks of the opponent. There is certainly a significant truth in Indian consulates activities. The number of Indian consulates in Afghanistan is much less important than the activities they are involved in. Atleast in South in Kandahar India has simply no business to open a consulate. India’s footprint has risen alarmingly in Afghanistan and Pakistan cannot afford that.

@Rajeev : “This is episode 2. 1st was 1979-1989, Russian exit and Zia gone.”

-The cold war era is over, the war in Af-Pak is high-tech and many high tech weapons as drones, sophisticated imagery etc are being used. It is a counter insurgency operation. the dynamics are different. And this time, Pakistan’s military leadership is in no mood to jump in a C-130 with Ambassador Patterson and go down in Punjab to witness a demo of a failed American tank. Today Pakistan makes its own tanks, the COAS travel plan are concealed, only high security clearence crew operate VIP planes. ISI even has limited activities and monitors the American diplomats. American ambassador can hardly enter the GHQ in Rawalpindi much less jump in a C-130 for a ride with Gen. Kayani.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Former Pakistani Officer Embodies a Policy Puzzle

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/04/world/ asia/04imam.html?scp=1&sq=Col%20Imam%20& st=cse

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-offi ce/remarks-president-address-nation-way- forward-afghanistan-and-pakistan

Dec1 09, Obama addresses US Military Academy West Point NY

“In the past, we too often defined our relationship with Pakistan narrowly. Those days are over. Moving forward, we are committed to a partnership with Pakistan that is built on a foundation of mutual interest, mutual respect, and mutual trust.”

-Looks as though Pakistan’s star was quitely rising not just in Washington but New York too.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Any one still arguing a master-slave relationship between Pakistan and US?

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Umair,

Taking a few recent quotes from Obama & Clinton in relation to Pakistan at face value, is naivety at best. Of course the current administration will say these things in public since Obama has foolishly decided to explore withdrawal from Afghanistan & sees a ready goat in the form of Pakistan. You became the goat after the Afghan war & you’re getting ready to become a goat again. If Bush’s legacy is the unnecessary war which he started in Iraq, Obama’s could very well be the necessary war in Af-Pak which he’s looking to end quite pre-maturely.
However, I would advise you to tread cautiously & be careful what you wish for. If you say that you have suddenly become a sincere ally in the GWOT, you better be 100% sincere & make sure that you wipe out all forms of terrorism from your soil because if you’re not & down the road, there’s a terror attack in the US or the west & it has anything to do with Pakistan, you guys will be toast. At that point, be ready to face the complete onslaught of American fire-power & the wrath of the American people. So make sure your generals stop playing their dirty games & come clean for good. No more nurturing & abetting terrorism in the form of ‘strategic depth’ because it’ll spell doom for your country.

@ “Yes, India is crying wolf loud, but the issue is, does any one hears its voice in America? does anyone take it seriously anymore”

Actions speak louder than words. US-India relations are on an equal footing. Trade is growing at a rapid pace, as are relations in many other areas, including defense, diplomacy & nuclear technology. American companies are vying hard to get a piece of the Indian market. Needless to say, US has a lot to gain from India. Now tell me, what does Pakistan have to offer to the US, besides becoming the willing ‘goat’ in the Af-Pak mess? Economically, you have nothing to offer since you’re not an asset but a liability to America & a drain on the American tax payer. Strategically & defense-wise, you’ve proven time & again that you can’t be trusted one bit & are a global migraine. So what exactly do you have to offer in this ‘partnership’? The truth is that till the time you’re dependent on American aid, US-Pakistan relation will continue to be defined as a ‘master-slave’ relation in spite of you wanting to think of it as ‘partnership’ or whatever .

@”You tell Americans that Pakistan is a failed state”

I didn’t know that the ‘Failed State Index’ was created by India. Thanks for the info.

@”American ambassador can hardly enter the GHQ in Rawalpindi much less jump in a C-130 for a ride with Gen. Kayani”

LMAO! This is a really funny statement. Yes the American ambassador can hardly enter the GHQ but a bunch of rag tag militants were able to penetrate it & create havoc for hours.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

@UmairPak,

If you are sincere about peace and reconciliation with India, no strings attached, all security guarantees in place, with no more proxy army wars, list your top 10 things internally and externally that India should change and list your top 10 things that Pakistan needs to change, internally and externally.

Let’s see if your your top 10 list for both countries are reciprocal. I want to see how your sense of fairness would bring peace to the two countries.

If you are serious and sincere, it will show. I don’t want to see any more double speaking and useless finger pointing and please no more Indian conspiracy stories, that entertainment is getting boring now.

Just remember, you must be fair, unbiased and understand that Indians are also human beings and have the equal right to exist and thrive.

No double standards, lets see what you have to say.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

@ Umair: “Farmers in India commit suicides, millions live in poverty suffer hunger and disease and there is widespread corruption, maoist insurgency in India too. Point fingers on Pakistan only in case India is a utopian wonderland”

There is absolutely no denying the fact that India still has a lot on it’s plate, be it income disparity, corruption, maoist movement etc but there’s a big difference between problems in Pakistan & those in India. For starters, the problems that India faces are pretty much similar to the ones faced by any rapidly growing & diverse, developing country during it’s evolutionary course. These problems, for most part, were not the doing of India’s leaders. Yes, they didn’t try to solve any problems till the early 90′s but they didn’t create them either whereas most of the problems faced by Pakistan today, were the creation of it’s military leaders. They radicalized & bankrupted it with high defense spending & unnecessary wars (proxy & conventional) with India. Instead of nursing the ambition to ‘bleed India’, if they had worked towards making Pakistan a tolerant, progressive & economically self-sufficient nation, your country would not be facing the existential threats which it faces today.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

How much the US has turned the corner and how different the relationship between them and Pakistan really is will come to light once the US exits. Till then it is mere guess work.

I do not for a moment believe that the US has learnt any lessons after 1989. It is incapabable of looking beyond its nose. To them last year is history, for us history begings after 100 years have past. Maybe I am wrong, in which case good luck to Pakistan – they need it and deserve it. Time will tell.

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive
 

KP,

I don’t think anyone gets taken in by the likes of Magic and BJ and Ali etc etc. They are just birds flitting by, but its fun to see how ignorant they are or how much ignorance they profess to display. Frankly I enjoy reading them, this place gets too serious at times. Besides you don’t have to apply too much thought in putting them in their place. No body takes them seriously or ourselves for that matter.

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive
 

Indians have been crying wolf since the ’80s. When the Punjab sikh population was fighting the Indian forces. At that time the Indian media repeated their mantra of Pakistan supporting/funding the sikh insurgency, however it was the polocies of Indra Ghandi and the massacare in the golden temple that fueled the insurgency.
Same thing again was repeated in the ’90s when the Kashmiri population rose up against the Indian brutality, again Pakistan was blamed.
So it is no surprise that whenever anything goes wrong in India, i.e. Bombay blasts to the attack on the Indian Parliment to the recent Bombay attacks, again the hate spewing Indian media cries wolf and blames ISI.
Indians need to get this through their skulls that Pakistan is a seperate country and whatever we shared before ’47 is long gone. And they need to stop living their pipe dream of a “united India” since thats never gonna happen

Posted by jb2010 | Report as abusive
 

I fail to understand this need to be endorsed by ‘superpower’ USA. And that the ‘superpower’ sheen has worn off should be clear from the fact that it plans to exit from all its adventures, whether Iraq or Afghanistan.

I remember an old story, that people in both India and Pakistan should have read in the 1st standard – about the clever monkey and two cats.

Every country has to take care of its own interests. USA is doing that admirably. And so is Pakistan. And so should India. No need to be cry babies and ask this country and that to help. No superpower is strong enough to do that. And no self respecting country should even ask for it.

Posted by siddsingh | Report as abusive
 

As an Indian I keep telling myself everyday, thank God Pakistan is a separate country :)

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive
 

Pak was US favourite conmpared to india..but the nuclear deal changed the bias..may be now it looks like pak is the fav again..but never ignore the events happening everyday..recently there was LeT terrorists caught in US who were plotting an attack in US..So now if US decides to push pakis to act against LeT and alikes..the favour is automatically towards India..isn’t it ?

Posted by Divu | Report as abusive
 

DaraIndia

Same here pal. Can’t imagine how the old ones put up with all those hindus

Posted by jb2010 | Report as abusive
 

Divu,

Who the heck cares about the US favorite? Indians been Russian lakies for decades, you don’t see a Paki stani whining about it? Why are the Indians so obsessed with who is US favorite?

Posted by jb2010 | Report as abusive
 

jb2010 aka Magic786,

After the humiliation & pounding you received in your previous edition, it was somewhat clever of you to come back with a different identity. But believe me man, you’re not nearly smart enough to pull it off for too long because a rat can only act like a squirrel for so long!

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Jb

There you go with your communal prejudices now. Gradually your true colours are coming to the surface. You have too many hang ups for one so young.

But don’t stop anyway, just let it all come out and you may realise that the total of what you have said is a zero sum game. Keep going boy!

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk: “The number of Indian consulates in Afghanistan is much less important than the activities they are involved in. Atleast in South in Kandahar India has simply no business to open a consulate. India’s footprint has risen alarmingly in Afghanistan and Pakistan cannot afford that”

Explain to me why it is all right for Pakistan to engage covertly and overtly in anti-Indian activities while it is not all right for India to return the courtesy.

Pakistan has well known camps where insurgents are trained and sent into India to create havoc and panic.

India just has consulates in Afghanistan and Pakistan is objecting to any Indian presence there. Don’t you think this is an unfair demand? If you throw rotten eggs on your neighbor, expect to see some come your way. You cannot protest it because you initiated it.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

A shameless jb2010 can only remain jb2010 until he gets in his grove and types Indra Ghandi and lo, he becomes Magic786, whose bxxls were busted by keystrokes from around the globe. I see old-days typewriters in action in my mind [grin].

Identity crisis on Internet too, eh?

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive
 

@ “Jb There you go with your communal prejudices now. Gradually your true colours are coming to the surface. You have too many hang ups for one so young” Posted by DaraIndia

Dara, don’t be so sure about his age. He could very well be a dim-witted 39 yr old locked up in his mom’s basement. After all, stupidity & ignorance know no age.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

The land was divided based on religion.
The one with higher hindu population was given to hindus regardless of any other factor, like ruler.
Hyderabad and Juangarh was given to India based on higher hindu population, though they were ruled by Muslims.
Why should Kashmir be an exception, when the very basis of partition was religion?
Pakistan and India should think with open mind & resolve the issue in the best interest of the people of Kashsmir.
What ever they want, Pakistan, India or independence from both.
Canada resolved the issue of Quebec with an open mind and allowed them to have a fair & independent referrendum.
Pakistan & India should remove the bone of contention, and resolve the issue with open mindedness, and give the people of the region a new start.
Pakistan & India should become frieds as a result of the fair game.
It will be win win for the three parties, Pakistan, India & the people of Kashmir due to the rapid gain & development that will result from the friendship.
The other option is sea saw.

Posted by BobAndersen | Report as abusive
 

@BobAnderson,

Your thoughts are logical and noble, in a perfect world. You westerners completely ignore history and always repeat it..mark my words from here on, etch them in your eyeballs and on your cranium, Pakistan’s intent on the so-called moral support of muslim Kashmiri’s is a thinly veiled long term conquest to re-islamicize India, with Kashmir being the very first step in a long line of many intended steps. You and I can debate the validity of this, but the fact is that the Deobandi and Wahhabi’s have an unsettled score to settle with Indians, they are bitter that the British took away their Muslim rule over Indians.

This filthy creed will use any means necessary, every opportunity to spread the geopolitical expansion of Islam, through any political means necessary, through low level wars, through forced conversions, through ethnic genocide, forced conversions and murder.

Between me and you, Indians will NEVER be humiliated ever again, on their ancestral homeland, by invaders, like the Moghuls.

This was the goal of General Niazi of Pakistan in 1971, to conquer militarily, all of northern India and join it with East Pakistan and re-occupy and snatch more and more territory over time, until it all falls under the flag of Islam.

Those doctrines to re-Islamicize India are alive and well in the Pak Army doctrines, the educational text books in Pak schools and the Madrasa school system. You can see direct evidence of this, with Pakistan’s complicity with terror groups and ISI’s help of Jihad groups that since the 80′s have tried to destabilize India.

Indians now have the military might and brain power to repel any such foolish intentions. But let me remind you again, Kashmir is just a trojan horse for something more sinister the Deobandi and Wahhabi in Pakistan have in store for Indians, that is to claw away land, using any fictitiously created ethnic plight of muslims any where they can, through any means available at their disposal. If there was not a Kashmir, another Kashmir would have been created, it would have the plight of muslims in Gujarat and so…on…there is no end to this.

Thank God the Punjabi Sikhs and King Shivaji of Maharashtra showed the spine and courage to stand against invaders that imprisoned, genocided and robbed Indians of human dignity.

India is not going to let Kashmir become another bastion of fictious Islamic struggle to make further inroads into the Indian subcontinent. I hope short-minded westerners regain the ability one day to retain long-term memory.

As long as the invisible hands of the deobandi and wahhabist are allowed to exist in the Pakistani Army and Jihadi groups in Pakistan and Pakistani culture in general, Pakistan and India will forever be locked in a vicious circle chasing each others tails and nothing will ever change for Kashmiris.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

BobAndersen >> “The land was divided based on religion.”

One would wish it was that simple. The land was divided because Muslim league wanted a separate nation for Muslims since the democratic model promoted by Indian National Congress with stronger central control would alway keep Muslims in minority and they feared oppression by Hindu elites.

If you would dig deeper, you will find that likes of Jawahar Lal Nehru always promoted the idea of secular India where religion was no dividing factor at all. So your over-simplification that both countries were created based on religion is factually WRONG. Pakistan was created on the basis of religion, India never left her secular roots.

Now coming to Kashmir issue – bordering princely states were given the option to join either India or Pakistan. The ruler of Kashmir, Maharaja Hari Singh, wanted to merge with Pakistan hoping to retain his princely status as India had clearly communicated her intentions of dissolving such states.

Kashmiris might have been ended with Pakistan but the Pakistani administration shot in its foot when they decided to send their tribal pathans (and Pakistani army) to uproot the Hindu ruler. But instead of forwarding with the Pakistani objective, those tribesmen got themselves indulged in looting and raping in the countryside. Fearing loosing everything in the new equation with Pakistan, Hari Singh decided to merge with India in order to get protection.

Now if Pakistanis are determined to establish their Muslim identity, India is equally determined to establish her secular identity. We already have a heterogeneous population comprising of various religions, creeds, and languages. Do you know that we’ve more than 15 languages and 2000 dialects in our country.

As for the example of Canada, India has been very considerate and have given way too many concessions to Muslims (and other minorities on various basis) just to prove that state administration does not discriminate on the basis of religion or caste.

You may refer to as many books as you can find on this subject and I’m sure you will reach no other conclusion (provided you are willing to leave your biases) that current stand maintained by India is the best solution for peace in the region for the time being.

If an idea of giving “freedom” has to be considered than it should not be only given to Kashmir but entire Indian subcontinent will end up into 30-40 countries. Can an already burning South Asia afford that? Lecturing India on resolving Kashmir issue, have you ever tried to imagine millions in exodus? If Kashmiris are given their freedom based on their religion, what to do with rest of 160 million+ muslims in India? Carve out more small Islamic countries? How much aid can your taxpayers handle? Or wait a minute, you are going to leave these broken countries as something for rest of the India to sort out since it would be a regional issue and as a Canadian you are not bothered, right?

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive
 

Bobandersen,

Theres a little more to the partition and the problem in Kashmir than just religion. Pakistan was created on religion, India remained India (was not created), a secular country that embraces all.
Anyhow, for your information partition was agreed upon on the following basis:

1. Contiguous Muslim majority areas became Pakistan. (If it were only religion alone, there would have been 100 Pakistani hamlets across the length and breadth of India and total chaos prevailed.)
2. The rest remained India.
3. As far as princely states were concerned, the ruler had the absolute right to decide which country he wanted to join or even declare himself independent.
4. The basis for deciding the boundaries was an old census report, about 20 years old and the tribunal, Radcliffe Commission, was given just 3 weeks to complete the job because Mountbatten unilaterally preponed the date of Independence by a year. Poor Radcliffe was given two or three Hindu and the same number of Muslim judges, none of whom agreed on any thing and the whole hodge podge was sealed and delivered. Radcliffe went back to England a broken man, refusing even to claim his fee of 5000 Pounds Sterling and never agreed to speak about his 3 week sojourn in India.

So the whole thing was a mess from start to finish and no one was happy or satisfied.

In Kashmir’s case, Hari Singh dithered, wanted a stand to agreement which India agreed, in other words he wanted more time to decide. Pakistan initially agreed. Hari Singh continued to dither. Sardar Patel even made it clear to him to decide one way or another, India would make no noise if he went to Pakistan. He still dithered and toyed with the idea of declaring independence. Pakistan lost patience and tried to take physical possession, Met with initial success, Hari Singh panicked asked for Indian help which was refused as he was not part of India. It was then that he signed the accession to India. Very briefly this is the problem’s history, check out Mountbatten Papers and scores of other books.

Incidentally Kashmir is the state of Jammu Kashmir, which has Jammu – predominantly Hindu, Kashmir valley – predominantly Muslim, Ladakh – predominantly Buddhist. However, overall majority population is Muslim. So what happens to Jammu and Ladakh is also pertinent. AS you see the issue is complicated.

Believe me, there is not one Indian or Pakistani who doesn’t want a peaceful settlement but the basic difference is the very basis on which either country has based its existence. One an Islamic state and the other secular which wants all religions and wher,e by and large, things have functioned with occasional hiccups. Which country hasn’t had problems?

Posted by DaraIndia | Report as abusive
 

Myra,
It is not important whether India or Pakistan or even US vying for power in Afghanistan, but what is more important is the people of Afghanistan, they have seen so much blood shed, first in the hands of Soviet Union then by islamic jehadis and fundamentalists backed by Pakistan’s ISI in their bid to control narcotics trade to finance their own nefarious activities. The simple fact is India and Afghanistan share common history for more than thousand years. Gandhari , a queen in ancient hindu epic , Mahabharata, was said to be the daughter of the King of Kandahar, which is presently in Afghanistan. Bamiyan statues of Lord Budha are the testimony of Indo-Afghan relationship dating back thousands of years. for centuries , Indians and Afghans were traveling to each other countries without any difficulty. Afghans were part of Indian social fabric , there are countless tales of Afghans living in India as part of Indian society. Indians still remember the famous novel by Ravindra Nath Tagore , a nobel prize winning author fron Bengal, his holiness Guru Nanakji , religious head of Sikhs, spent a long time in Kabul.

Sudden warming of US- Pak relationship in Afghanistan will definitely not go down well with people of Afghanistan. It is certainly a very unhealthy development for the people of Afghanistan. If India is doing some good work in Afghanistan, it should be read in the context of Indo-Afghan historic relationship. India has no interest in destabilising Pakistan in any way. Pakistan has been regularly making noises about Indian hand in various terrorist activities in Pakistan, but so far these remained a wild allegation , Pakistan has not been able to present any proof of Indian involvement in any of these acts.

Pakistan has been habitual lier,Pakistan is surviving on one or other lies . First they created the monster of terrorism and now that this has boomeranged on them , Pakistan is claiming to be a victim of terrorism to win sympathy of the world.

Posted by manishindia | Report as abusive
 

Myra,

In this power struggle, poor and innocent Afghans have become victim . In their bid to early exit from Afghanistan, US is willing to go to any length even willing to consider power sharing deal with talibans, US is also ready to work out deal with Pakistan at the cost of Afghans with full knowledge of Pak role in post Soviet Afghanistan .

Posted by manishindia | Report as abusive
 

Bob Andersen,

The very basis of your argument “The land was divided based on religion” is erroneous. Pakistan was formed on a religious basis & ideology, not India. India never agreed to be divided on religious grounds because if that were the case, it’s 12% Muslim population (at the time of partition) would’ve been asked to leave or forced to leave just as the minorities in Pakistan were. Today, India’s minorities constitute app. 21% (2002 figures) of it’s population out of which 15% are muslims.

I won’t get into Kashmir’s history since others have already done so.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

jb2010:
@@I stand corrected there are 107 Indian consulates (terror networks) in Afghanistan. http://rupeenews.com/2008/09/29/107-indi an-consulates-in-afghanistan-spreading-t error-to-pakistan/

–Is it not a case of a liar quoting another liar? Moin is a professional one….Is that your limit of fact checking?

India for years have been formenting terror in sri lanka, Nepal and Bangladesh. Indians live their pipe dream of competing with china and have sold the idea to west that they can contain china. Maybe the Indians have fogotton the 63 war!
Posted by jb2010 | Report as abusive

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

@Soon after the 9-11 attacks, corps commanders meeting took place in GHQ Rawalpindi. Some of the corps commanders had told then Army chief not to support the US impending attack in Afghanistan, that same story of Soviet occupation will be repeated. Pakistan will give it sweat and blood in return suffer. Still Pakistan supported the US at a huge cost.”
–Umairpk

—-Do you know the reason why few corps commanders who were saying firm NO to allying with the USA on WOT finally agreed with him. Mushy told them if Pakistan will not go for it, India will. That did it. lol…The brand India sells well in Pakistan.

Just a bit of detail for you.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

@Any one still arguing a master-slave relationship between Pakistan and US?
Posted by Umairpk

—Very much.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

@American ambassador can hardly enter the GHQ in Rawalpindi much less jump in a C-130 for a ride with Gen. Kayani.
Posted by Umairpk

–May be he can sub-contract TTP. They are good at it.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

@When the Punjab sikh population was fighting the Indian forces.
–JB

—get some cold shower or dip your head somewhere. There are genuine sikhs on this blog. I am sure they would have sided with you if it was “Punjab sikh population” (LMAO..) was fighting the Indian forces.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

@DaraIndia

Same here pal. Can’t imagine how the old ones put up with all those hindus
Posted by jb2010

—So that explains the drop in Hindu population in pakistan!!!

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

@daraindia

Can India produce the legal document that verifies signing of accession of kashmir to India by Hari Singh? In either case, you must retract the claim.

“….Hari Singh panicked asked for Indian help which was refused as he was not part of India. It was then that he signed the accession to India.”

Posted by redmax | Report as abusive
 

This site seems to recieve a large ammount of visitors. How do you advertise it? It gives a nice unique spin on things. I guess having something useful or substantial to post about is the most important thing.

 

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