Guest contribution-The United States and Pakistan

May 13, 2010

orakzaiThe following is a guest contribution. Reuters is not responsible for the content and the views expressed are the author’s alone. The writer is a defence expert and author of two books on the Pakistan Army.

By Brian Cloughley

On 11 May several Frontier Corps soldiers were killed by insurgents in Pakistan’s Orakzai Tribal Agency. Concurrently there was a report that US Secretary of State Clinton had once again been indignantly critical of Pakistan’s supposed lack of effort to rid itself of murderous fanatics seeking to destroy Pakistan and create a so-called ‘Islamic caliphate’ in the region.

Clinton declared her belief that “somewhere in the government [of Pakistan] are people who know where Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda is [sic], where Mullah Omar and the leadership of the Afghan Taliban is [sic], and we expect more cooperation to help us bring to justice, capture or kill those who attacked us on 9/11.”

The psychotic Mullah Omar hates America, to be sure; but for the US Secretary of State to assert that Omar and his adherents were responsible for the atrocities of 9/11 is absurd.

Pakistan’s dead soldiers included Lieutenants Murad and Hakimullah, Hawaldar Imran and Sepoys Gohar, Rehman Gul, Amjad Ali, Arif, Zahid, Munir, Wasti Khan and Nauman, and they died while fighting America’s war. You can’t carry support much further.

But in spite of such sacrifices Mrs Clinton demands “more cooperation” from Pakistan.

Until the invasion of Afghanistan by the United States in 2001 there was no insurrection in Pakistan’s North West Frontier Province (NWFP; renamed last month as “Khyber Pakhtunkhwa”). There were no foreign militants in the Province before America went to war in Afghanistan; there were no vicious loony Talibs in Swat, burning down girls’
schools and destroying the livelihood of shopkeepers who dared sell DVDs. Foreigners could walk the streets of Peshawar fearing only that they might overdose on tea offered by the merchants.

Pakistan wasn’t entirely a paradise before 2001 – but there weren’t the hundreds of bombings and killings it has experienced every year since then. The US invasion of Afghanistan drove the fanatics over the border into Pakistan and, preposterously, Clinton blames Pakistan, “somewhere in the government” for supposedly protecting the
bigoted terrorists who seek to wreck the country.

Her allegation followed her demand on 1 December 2009 that “The Pakistanis have to do more against all of the insurgent terrorist groups that are threatening them, that are threatening us in Afghanistan and the Afghan people, and are threatening other neighbours in the region.”

Do more?

Pakistan’s army chief, General Kayani, said in February this year that “we deployed around 147,000 troops on our western border. Compared to this, 43 NATO members have deployed 100,000 troops. We have 821 posts on our side of the border, while only 112 posts have been established on the other side. We have conducted 209 brigade-level operations while they have conducted only ten operations. We lost 2,273 soldiers including one lieutenant general, two major generals and five brigadiers, while they lost only 1,582.” You can practically hear the exhalation of exasperated breath as he gives the figures.

He could not have been more direct in making the point that the soldiers under his command have made enormous sacrifices following America’s war in Afghanistan.

Little wonder so many Pakistanis detest these foreigners who keep telling their country to “do more”, while their soldiers are dying.

Not only this, but in talking about the recent bomb scare in New York on the CBS ‘60 Minutes’ programme last Sunday Clinton delivered the threat that “We’ve made it very clear that if – heaven forbid – an attack like this that we can trace back to Pakistan were to have been successful, there would be very severe consequences.”

Just what “severe consequences” for Pakistan has she in mind?

What is the government of the United States of America proposing to do to punish the people of Pakistan if a “successful” attack in the US can be “traced back” to their country? And does this mean that if other terrorist plots in America are “traced back” to a another country (other than Pakistan, that is), then there would be some sort
of military or economic action taken against it by Washington?

The failed car-bomber of New York, the ludicrously amateur Faisal Shahzad, who couldn’t blow up a balloon, was certainly connected to Pakistan. No doubt about it. But what would have happened if the bomb had gone off? Cruise missiles on Islamabad?

Perhaps there would be even more CIA drones firing missiles in Pakistan killing lots of people who are automatically described as “terrorists” by the people who claimed to have killed an insurgent leader called Hakimullah Mehsud.

Mehsud is undoubtedly a fanatic whose barbarity is contemptible. And the CIA tried to kill him by drone and then, after a couple of strikes, used their usual patsies in the media to announce his death to the world.

But the trouble for the CIA – and America – is that Mehsud wasn’t killed by the supposedly precise drone targeting. He wasn’t at the place where the CIA thought he was.  Which casts doubt on the assurances that are given about all these drone strikes having killed “16 militants” (or whatever number happens to be dreamed up by the propaganda people), without killing any civilians.

While the US drone blitz continues, and Mrs Clinton rails at Pakistan and makes dramatic threats against it, and Pakistani soldiers continue to die as a result of America’s war in Afghanistan, it seems as if US policy in the region is unstructured, to put it mildly. As it is, the insurgents have been handed a valuable propaganda weapon, and are no doubt making full use of it. If Mrs Clinton is seeking to make an ally out of Pakistan, she’s going about it in a strange way.

(Photo: March file photo of the funeral of a Pakistani soldier killed in Orakzai tribal agency)

Comments

Is this guy for real? I don’t have the energy to try and refute all his claims but he knows he’s being provocative, right? He’s just writing this to make us think, right? Because if this article is genuinely his objective viewpoint I question his so-called “expertise” on the matter.

He calls the American strikes in Afghanistan “America’s war”. That may be but what’s wrong with that? Is he implying that because the war is “American” it is automatically wrong? By the way, if he doesn’t believe the claims of American officials why should he automatically assume this Pakistani General Kayani is telling the truth? And why is he using the word “successful”—as in a successful terrorist attack, in quotes? Is he implying that there is no definition for this term? Ah whatever.

Posted by KOSMOS | Report as abusive
 

I am really surprised by such pro-Pakistani sentiment in the article, coming from a Westerner. Looks like 9/11 did not happen for this individual. America is breathing fire in this region because 9/11 happened. Can he tell us who allowed all the militants to escape into the safe havens inside Pakistan? Can he tell us who created the Taliban and who was running Afghanistan by remote control? Can he deny the existence of hundreds of terrorist training camps in the same area where drones are wreaking havoc? Westerners could walk freely and have tea? Which planet is he living on. Does he know about Daniel Pearl? Hello? When Tomahawk missiles destroyed Al Qaeda terrorist training camps, does he know how many Pakistani military personnel died with that? Does he remember that hundreds of Pakistani military soldiers were air lifted from Kunduz when the US attacked Afghanistan? What were Pakistani soldiers doing inside Afghanistan at that time?

The whole mess is due to Pakistani machination. Pakistan started the whole thing in order to gain advantage over India which is a ridiculous goal. And the Americans went with it so long as it met with their objectives. Americans got their job done in 1989 and went home. Pakistan did not stop at that point. It began to invest heavily on militancy and continued sponsoring mad Mullahs who radicalized it from within. Pakistan created the Taliban and allowed Al Qaeda to camp out inside Afghanistan. If 9/11 had not happened, the US wouldn’t have cared what Pakistan did in this region.

Pakistan has been hunting with the hounds and running with the hares at the same time. It has one leg here and another there. It cannot go on forever this way. Obama adiministration sees clearly where the source of the problem lies. And they are very much right in pushing Pakistan to wipe out its “assets.” Islamic terrorism has caused enormous damage to the region and the world and Pakistan has wholeheartedly supported it so long as it burnt others. It is time they had a taste of their own medicine.

It was all right for Afghanistan to suffer under the Taliban. But it is not all right for Pakistanis to live under the same Taliban. That is unfair treatment of fellow Muslims. One rule for themselves and another for others. Afghanistan is where it is due to Pakistan. It is pay back time. Afghanistan will never get up on its feet so long as Pakistani military and the ISI are not reset.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

With all due respect to Mr. Cloughley, if I would’ve read this article without reading the name of the author, I would’ve certainly assumed it to be penned by a Retd. Pakistani General or someone on the payroll of the Pakistani army.

@ “The psychotic Mullah Omar hates America, to be sure; but for the US Secretary of State to assert that Omar and his adherents were responsible for the atrocities of 9/11 is absurd”

Really, is it that absurd?
Who planned & executed 9/11? Osama Bin Laden & AlQaeda
From where? Their sancturies & havens in Afghanistan?
Who provided them this sanctuary? Mullah Omar & Taliban

@ “There were no foreign militants in the Province before America went to war in Afghanistan; there were no vicious loony Talibs in Swat, burning down girls’
schools”

Yes they weren’t because they were busy doing all those things in Afghanistan with the blessings & approval of the Pakistani army who wholeheartedly supported those monsters in order to create “strategic depth” against India. So, it’s ok for the Pakistanis to do it to others but when they get a taste of their own medicine, it’s someone else’s fault? Maybe you should ask the Afghans, what they think about that.

@ “Her allegation followed her demand on 1 December 2009 that “The Pakistanis have to do more against all of the insurgent terrorist groups that are threatening them, that are threatening us in Afghanistan and the Afghan people, and are threatening other neighbours in the region.” Do more?”

Yes they indeed need to do a lot more. It’s hardly a secret that the Pakistani army is only interested in fighting those terror outfits who are targeting the Pakistani state while sheilding & protecting those that target others. They are fighting the TTP but are sheilding & abetting the Afghan Taliban, Haqqani network, LeT etc, just to name a few. So they do need to do a lot more & eliminate all kinds of terroism from their soil instead of being selective & playing a double-game, which they have been doing uptill now.

@ “Little wonder so many Pakistanis detest these foreigners who keep telling their country to “do more”, while their soldiers are dying”

Yes, it is unfortunate that the soldiers are dying & their sacrifices should be honoured but the Pakistanis also need to realize that they are dying fighting a creation of their own. Instead of pinting fingers at others, they need to do some much needed introspection & get rid of this cancer of terrorism, which their army bred & nurtured for decades while nursing a blind ambition to hurt & break others.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

KPSingh wrote “I am really surprised by such pro-Pakistani sentiment in the article, coming from a Westerner”.

I’m surprised you don’t know who BC is!

Propagndists on the pay roll of pakistan army list the names of pakistani soldiers…this is supposed to evoke sympathy…if we list the names of terrorists trained and sustained by pakistan army and unleashed on India and Afghanistan…the list will be longer…if we do enumeration of the names of victims of pakistan army sponsored terrorism….the list will be even longer….

“Historians” of pakistan army still attempt to peddle fiction..that pakistanis were plucking flowers, chanting peaceful mantras in their monasteries until the ever cruel USA thrust them into “WoT”…It is falsehood to state pakistan army ever so eagerly rented itself for anti-Soviet Jihad and in turn has reaped windfall….loads of US tax dollars and military gadgets….

let us all enjoy reading this literary gem ….the “expertise”…of this defence “expert”…

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive
 

You guys all hit the nail in the head–I was simply too lazy to offer a proper rebuttal. Seriously though, I don’t think this Cloughley fellow believes most of this stuff—he’s more likely a provocateur trying to get people to think about this conflict from Pakistan’s POV…in the dimmest manner possible. He must have some qualifications—otherwise Reuters wouldn’t bother publishing his pieces at all, right?

Posted by KOSMOS | Report as abusive
 

Brian Cloughley: are you on the pay roll of Pakistan or ISI? By writing this article, are you trying to justify the deeds of Pak army? Is Pak Army not responsible for training the Al-queda or talibans or LETs, etc? Is Pak army not responsible for providing safe sanctuary to various terrorists? Is Pak army not responsible for drug running cartel from Afghanistan ?In fact Pak army comprises of a bunch of scoundrels and butchers.

Mrs Clinton is right in asserting as an aftermath of Times Square bomb plot , because the main conspirators hail from Pak Army back ground, and he made several visits to the terror training camp . I congratulate her being so candid . In fact, for the present volatile and explosive situation in this sub-continent, it is Pak army who is solely responsible . Pak army is also responsible of massacre of millions of innocent civilians in Bangladesh , Pak army is also responsible for insurgency in J&K, where hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians lives are lost , Pak army is also responsible for training of millions of terrorists . Instead of showing any sympathy to Pak army, to protect peace and tranquility in this region, immediate steps should be taken to disband Pak army and ISI .

Posted by manishindia | Report as abusive
 

@ seekeroftruth: Maybe that guy was wrong in quoting the figures, but we are fighting a war here; you will understand this when you’ll receive a dead body of someone close to you. We have lost innocent people and even a great leader of ours, simply because of this war; but we are not backing out.

Posted by SZaman88 | Report as abusive
 

On the Afghan side a coalition of 43 Nations with NATO and US included with all their resources have failed to achieve positive results and stabilize Afghanistan.
Pakistan and Pakistan Army on the other hand have made significant gains, managed to overcome the fallout of the war and sustained the losses.
What else Pakistan is required to do? If another successful attack on US soil is traced back to Pakistan, and US threatens Pakistan in any manner. Pakistan should resort to nuclear brinkmanship, immediately conduct a series of under sea, underground and land nuclear tests, followed by a series of ballistic missile tests in a show of force. Expel US diplomatic staff and recall its ambassador from US, and invite Iranian leadership for a summit in Pakistan and forge close ties with Iran and help it with building nuclear weapons. Sure there will be fallout in economic terms but we will be able to absorb it. However, a nuclear Iran and nuclear Pakistan resorting to nuclear brinkmanship will be a disaster for US. Then see how fast Mrs. Clinton changes her statements. She should rather take part in fashion shows, conducting successful diplomacy is not her cup of tea.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Mrs. Clinton:
“somewhere in the government [of Pakistan] are people who know where Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda is, where Mullah Omar and the leadership of the Afghan Taliban is, and we expect more cooperation to help us bring to justice, capture or kill those who attacked us on 9/11.”

-Oh really, then what stops you from asking those people in government of Pakistan? What stops you from gaining more cooperation? O’ wait a second, Pakistan happens to be a muslim nation, a nuclear power and has a fairly well trained Army. Maybe its too risky to push the Pakistani government.
SHUT UP Hillary, you have a big mouth and you are good for nothing. Have some compassion, Pakistan Army has suffered many casualties and if you are unable to acknowledge that don’t expect more cooperation from Paksitan. Hillary my cry baby! Pakistan Army is not telling her where OBL is hiding. Poor Hillary! can someone please tell her where OBL is? please.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Umair Wrote:
“Pakistan should resort to nuclear brinkmanship, immediately conduct a series of under sea, underground and land nuclear tests, followed by a series of ballistic missile tests in a show of force. Expel US diplomatic staff and recall its ambassador from US, and invite Iranian leadership for a summit in Pakistan and forge close ties with Iran and help it with building nuclear weapons. Sure there will be fallout in economic terms but we will be able to absorb it.”

Wow, you got a bigger mouth than Hilary, where were you hiding when Yanks said they will bomb the Tora Bora out of you ?

With your Budget depending on loans, khairat, karza or imdad whatever you say it, and just 3 weeks of oil reserve. Thousands of Nuclear weapons could not save USSR from imploding, how will you survive ?

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive
 

Umair,

Does your attitude represent Pakistani population in general? Or you are just living in fantasy like your colleagues in Pak army,ISI ?

Posted by manishindia | Report as abusive
 

Punjabiyaar:
“Wow, you got a bigger mouth than Hilary, where were you hiding when Yanks said they will bomb the Tora Bora out of you ?”

-Yanks know Pakistan will not accept any badmashee, recently when Defense secretary Robert Gates visited the National Defense University in Islamabad, a Pakistan Army officer asked him if US is with us or against us? and he replied ofcourse the US is with Pakistan. So its upto the Yanks, as long as they are with us, we will be with them.
As with the USSR, Pakistan does not have expansionist designs like the Soviet regime once had. Our nuclear capability and doctrine is one of minimum credible detterence to thwart external aggression. However if war is thrust upon us, Pakistan will have the right to defend itself with all its might.
And ofcourse with the US Army now facing the shock and awe campaign of IEDs and suicide bombing in Afghanistan, I don’t think there is stomach for another Tora Bora like bombing blitz. Already, the talk in Washington is to talk with the Taliban and find a political solution along with the military effort. Otherwise Afghanistan will once again prove itself to be the graveyard of empires.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

@ “Pakistan should resort to nuclear brinkmanship, immediately conduct a series of under sea, underground and land nuclear tests, followed by a series of ballistic missile tests in a show of force”
Posted by Umairpk

ROFLOL. Yes & while you “resort to nuclear brinkmanship”, we’ll be just watching you while having hot chocolate & singing kumbayah, right? Easier said than done buddy. It means absolutely nothing for a nonbody to puke out his hallucinogenic fantasies on an internet blog. Let one of your officials actually have the spine to respond to Hillary’s statement in a similar threatening tone & then see what happens. The world is cognizant of the fact that your failed rogue nation is fully capable of nuclear blackmail & it is watching you. Even before you touch your nukes, your “pure land” will be reduced to scorched earth, thats for sure. So, if you guys wanna commit suicide, be our guests.

Clinton is merely echoing the sentiment of the US administration & the american people. As more Pakistanis are being arrested for their involvement in the times square plot, anger aganist Pakistan is growing amongst americans & I expect more strern statements & pressure from US officials in the days ahead. Be ready for more bricks coiming your way.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Pakistanis have been kept under delusion by its military establishment. And there are Western writers like these who are on their payroll. They have lobbyists in powerful nations who campaign hard to thrust pro-Pakistani decisions. Cold war mindset is still existent and many US lawmakers and military personnel fall for this influence. Pakistan should never threaten to rise its nuclear arms. If they made that mistake, it would be the biggest mistake. The US and its allies and other countries in the region are waiting for Pakistan to make that move. If it did, there will be a bloody war staged by the US to remove the nukes from both Pakistan and Iran. I think they are stretching their war in this region more in order to get rid off the nukes. Pakistan must be very careful. No one hears any word from the civilian government. Having the nukes has emboldened the Pak military and the radical organizations to wage all their proxy wars and terrorism.

Pakistan has become the most dangerous country in the world at this time. Unless its nukes are removed, it is going to sponsor terrorism. It considers the American outing in Af-Pak to be a temporary mission and is waiting it out. Westerners should not fall for its duplicity. They have paid a heavy price for that.

Pakistan has already begun its moves in Kashmir now that attention is zeroing in on it. Read this link:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/86 83367.stm

None of the militants are from Kashmir. I hope the sleeping beauties in India wake up to the reality.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

Mortal1
“Even before you touch your nukes, your “pure land” will be reduced to scorched earth, thats for sure. So, if you guys wanna commit suicide, be our guests.”

-No doubt US has got impressive firepower, but here we are talking about a hypothetical scenario whereby a pre-emptive strike on US forces closeby is carried out. Thousands of US troops are in the harms way, just next door in Afghanistan live under the nuclear umbrella. How far are they willing to take the risks, besides US is fully aware of who they are dealing with. Pakistan is certainly not the easy game that Afghanistan or Iraq were. If you start the war with Pakistan, make sure its one you can win. Otherwise the consequences will be horrific resulting in thousands and thousands of casualties.
Now coming to the foolish American public, they are always misled into lies by politicians. American public is just merciful, they get to pay all the taxes, they are always lied into wars, its the military families who pay with their lives and politicians profit from the oil wars in the middle east. Name one senator, or congressman/woman who are willing to send their sons or daughters to the wars raging in Afghanistan or Iraq. Today, US debt has grown to $3 Trillion, and China is rising and Russia is resurgent. America is not the America once it was and it cannot hold others hostage. How many jobs are lost, how divided is the public on issues like healthcare and immigration, is there unity in dealing with the Wall Street after the financial crisis, housing market collapse, big auto industry giants collapsing. It is laughable that America is loosing ground and you are threatning war to other nations, while your own country is imploding slowly.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

@KpSingh,

Singh, what do you think the Pak Army is going to do to smash and stop the Taliban from operating on its soil, or any terrorists for that matter? Paks are in a difficult position as they keep getting egg thrown on their face, first Ajmal Kasab, then David Headly and now Faisal Shazad.

Umair does not realize that while the American voters are gullible, when they have their attention on one issue, it will become one that gets their full attention. I think Pakistan is officially on the map of average Americans and they do not have a favorable opinion.

The politicians there will use this to the maximum to polarize U.S. public against Pakistan.

I also do not think that the Pak establishment would be foolish enough to start having a back door affair with the Iranians, behind the US’s back. This will cause the whole region to become a fiery hot cauldron.

Umair’s solution to befriend the Iranians and help them build nxkes…laughable, is it not just easier to clean up the mess in your own country, on bit at a time?

Just smash the madrassas and take out the mouth piece mullahs and put everyone there to work…jeez…so much time to hate and blame others…go and get a job!!

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

@UmairPk,

The USA is on a confirmed economic recovery, althought its foundations are weak, the garbage has been confirmed, mostly to be flushed out of their economic system. Its all up hills for the U.S., they have been through the worst. The U.S. has the inertia and stomach for wars on many fronts and they will not lose. The U.S. is far from imploding. Just you wait and see what the U.S. is capable of, once they leave Iraq and start to win in Afghanistan. They are gearing up for Pakistan, as their army now is battle hardened and learned much from urban insurgency warfare and IED’s courtesy of Iran. The other thing to consider is: does the Pak Army have the bxlls and the stomach and the courage to change and mend its ways, once the U.S. decides to fix Pakistan’s terrorism problems for Pakistani’s? I don’t think that Pakistani’s will use nxkes on their own soil, they won’t need to, the Pak Army leaders will kindly step aside again, as they are dictated to, as always, after all, they sign all the paychecks in Pindi and Islmabad HQ, don’t they?

The American public, when it comes to U.S. securities and interests will always back their politicians, especially when you fools keep allowing more terrorists to leave your country to come to NY times square to kill innocent unarmed harmless American public, the voters, those who pay the paycheck of U.S. politicians. At the end of the day, Pakistan’s boss is the U.S. taxpayer and they want to see good on their investment, not more terrorism and lackluster effort.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

@ “but here we are talking about a hypothetical scenario whereby a pre-emptive strike on US forces closeby is carried out” Posted by Umairpk

First of all, thanks for increasing my lifespan with your comments (Some of your beauties crack me up real good).
Are you seriously talking about a pre-emptive nuclear strike on US troops by the Pakistani army? Let me tell you buddy, you guys are really f*^*king with the wrong country here. If your army is ever stupid enough to use your chinese nukes on US soldiers or citizens, what your country will experience will make Hiroshima & Nagasaki seem like picnics.

@”US is fully aware of who they are dealing with. Pakistan is certainly not the easy game that Afghanistan or Iraq were”

Don’t flatter yourself. In spite of all the hollow bravado & tough talk that your military establishment feeds you with, the reality is that if faced with the full might of american firepower, your military establishment will fold like a cheap wet rag within no time. Yes it’ll probably take a li’l longer than Iraq & Afghanistan but make no mistake, fold it will.

@ “Name one senator, or congressman/woman who are willing to send their sons or daughters to the wars raging in Afghanistan or Iraq”

Sure, here’s a few from the top of my head. I’m sure I’m missing a few: Vice Pres. Joe Biden, Sen. Tim Johnson, Sen. Chris Bond, Rep. Duncan Hunter, Rep. Joe Wilson, Sen. Jim Webb, Sen. John McCain, Rep. John Kline, Rep. Jim Saxton, Rep. Marilyn Musgrave, Rep. Ike Skelton, Rep. Todd Akin, Former Sen. & Atty Gen John Ashcroft

“It is laughable that America is loosing ground and you are threatning war to other nations, while your own country is imploding slowly”

Imploding, really? That’s a strong word. Yes we’re not where we were in the mid 2000s but we’re better than a year or 2 ago. Things have actually started to look up. The economy is growing again, job loss is stemming, companies are starting to turn profitable & the housing market also seems to be reboundingt. So, I would’nt really say that we’re imploding. If you wanna compare america’s economy, you should compare it with developed economies rather than developing ones & once you do that you’ll see that we’re doing much better than most european & other developed economies. Also, instead of getting your data on the american economy from some retired Pakistani generals or nutjobs like Hamid zaid, I suggest you get it from reputable sources like the Wall street journal, Financial times etc or even better get it from websites of the US treasure dept, labor dept, housing dept etc who release data on a regular basis. Put that high speed DSL connection of yours, to some good use.
As for the American people being taken for a ride or being devided on various issues. Yes, we’re devided on various issues but we discuss them, debate them, hold rallies & protests etc. We slug it out like civilized people instead of slitting each other’s throats & then we decide over the ballots every november, just like a real democracy should. More often than not, the right people get elected who make the right decisions but sometimes the wrong ones get elected who make the wrong decisions. That’s all good because it’s part & parcel of a real democracy but I guess being a Pakistani, you can never understand what a real democracy is like, since you’ve never experienced it. So, can’t really blame you there.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

You see …..when the allied forces were on the outskirts of Berlin in 1945…it wasn’t like Adolf Hitler was writing an apology note…umairpk his stubbornness…he would rather continue his delusional belief system and pump bullet into his cranium…

Same mindset is dispalyed by pak army/ISI ideologues..their castles are crumbling…but still they are continuing with the same old mindset…all because they think …they have the bum..they’ll rule the world.

What is next?

Internal collapse of pakistan…..Here is Zafar Hilaly, a former pak ambassador:

http://thenews.jang.com.pk/daily_detail. asp?id=239390

” The attendant consequences on the economy, demonstrated by the lack of investor confidence–the Friends of Pakistan are unwilling to release their pledges without IMF clearance–is already well known.

The level of foreign and domestic investment has plummeted. The new finance minister is already talking of a new loan from the IMF. For the next five years Pakistan’s growth rate, if one subtracts the annual population growth, will be negligible–an insignificant 1.5 per cent. Merely blaming it on the recession or the militancy won’t do. The populace is becoming restive. They cannot forever be exploited by their rulers for whom the perpetual menace of war or patriotic terrors seem to have become an abundant source of gain. They will take to the streets momentarily, and perhaps the next budget incorporating the bitter IMF regimen of higher taxes will provide the proverbial spark.”

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive
 

Hey Mortal1
Chill out and I see you are trying hard to defend America. Now see how the Republicans will fight with democrats after the signing of the controversial immigration bill in Arizona. The upcoming mid-term election will be a tough test for Dems. And the republicans and their supporters threatened with violent attacks and calls even voice messages to lawmakers. We know how civilized America is, no need to tell me, you guys were fighting like dogs breaking windows launching death threats to eash other when the Healthcare bill was passed.
Also what about the Christian Hutaree militia? and their arrests. A recent study shows the rise of armed militias in the US, what about the violent crime? armed gangs, street gangs, drugs and murder even rape. Can you compare that for example to Saudi Arabia which is a muslim nation and very low crime rate. Or maybe to Malaysia or Dubai, UAE? Then tell me where the USA stands in terms of violence. So much for democracy and freedom of expression, now the CIA is spying on tax paying citizens, no one has freedom or privacy left.
Still you blmae others for violence, Pakistan is a country born in 1947. In 63 years we went through wars, struggle, built ourselves from scratch, we experienced civil wars and many issues. But with a vibrant media, independent judiciary Pakistan is a young democracy. Even many government ministers were summoned to court numerous times. Pakistan population is young, brimming with confidence, energy and passion. We aspire for better education and jobs. I am part of that young generation, and we are not afraid of AMerican firepower. We will not be intimidated, fix your hell hole first then point fingers towards us. We are not perfect, but are fully capable of fixing things up and we will. And you don’t take us for granted either.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

@ “Chill out and I see you are trying hard to defend America. Now see how the Republicans will fight with democrats after the signing of the controversial immigration bill in Arizona” Posted by Umairpk

I’m always chilled, buddy, believe me, this is fun for me. And no, I’m not defending anyone or anything. You see, unlike you, I’m not an establishment lackey fed on unrealistic nationalism & excessive jingoism. I’m an independent thinker who loves his country but goes by ground realities & hard cold facts. Yes, things do get heated up here occassionally over various political & social issues. But let me ask you this, after all the threats & vigourous protests & debates that you talk about, how many people did you hear about getting killed or seriously injured? I’m not saying that things are perfect here but really, a Pakistani talking about the law & order situation in the US is beyond laughable & ridculousness, so I’ll just leave it at that.

Also, there’s a saying “Misery needs company”. I understand that since you guys are miserable over there, it helps you to believe that others, especially the people you hate, are also miserable. That’s why you want to believe that the Americans are fighting & imploding, the Indians are dying of hunger & aids & and the jews are also burning. Sorry to inform you but the reality is quite different my friend but if it makes you sleep better at night, feel free to delude yourself with anything you want. After all, it doesen’t cost anything.

@ “Can you compare that for example to Saudi Arabia which is a muslim nation and very low crime rate. Or maybe to Malaysia or Dubai, UAE?”

Great comparisons! Saudi Arabia, where 80 year old women are whipped for talking to men who are not family members & UAE, which is slightly bigger than Maine (40th biggest state in the US)

@ “fix your hell hole first then point fingers towards us”

Are you talking about the same hell hole, where most Pakistanis would kill to get a visa for?

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Mortal1

You are sadly mistaken if you think things are miserable in Pakistan. You are such an ignorant moron its even useless to argue with you, I am not even someone who follows Zaid Hamid or listens to him, nor do I ever watch Urdu Prime Time talk shows and read Urdu tabloid.
Enjoy while you think Pakistan is a miserable things, i would say Pakistan is the best kept secret of the world. Its good that you guys are not fully aware of us, sometimes they say ignorance is a blessing, seems true in your case.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

@Mortal,

It seems at times the only thing holding Pak together politically, at the civilian level, is common hatred for outsiders, namely israel, india and the west.

Hate is not enough to keep a country together. Although the states is in a conundrum with all internal issues, my family living in the U.S., and they live all over, say that life is good and peaceful and they would not want to live anywhere else, let alone India or Pakistan.

UmairPk, we north americans are doing ok, it is you Pakistni’s whose futures are washing away, unless you change course and fire the PUnjabi’s in power, or at least lay them off.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

@ Umair

Feel free to refute any of my “ignorant” comments with any facts that you may have, any time. It is indeed pointless to argue when you have little or no facts to back up your points. This is the age of global communication & internet. No country is isolated & everyone knows what’s going on everywhere, so Pakistan is hardly a secret. I can give a zillion links right here to show the state of affairs of your country but it’s not needed since everyone already knows what it is. Now, you personally might be doing alright but the condition of your country is quite troublesome & serious. I don’t say that but various ecconomists, scholars & intellectuals of your own country do.
Also, despite what you may think, I don’t enjoy your misery. In fact, I have empathy for you & your countrymen & sincerely hope that you guys can get out of the mess created by your establishment.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Mortal1
I would restate, the kind of an ignorant moron you are, walk to the Pakistani consulate general in NY, get a visa stamped on your passport and buy a ticket to Islamabad jump into a flight and i will welocme you here. Then we will drive around and you must show me the kind of misery or mess we are in.
Leave your laptop and I am not interested in your zillion links. Self proclaimed fortune tellers were even telling last year that within 6 months Pakistan will no more be on the world map.
Come on man, I am waisting my time arguing with an ignorant moron.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

@ “Come on man, I am waisting my time arguing with an ignorant moron” Posted by Umairpk

Easy with the “ignorant moron” stuff, wise boy. I can also play the name-calling game & with a lot more ingeniousness & creativity, mind you. So for your sake, lets just keep this conversation, impersonal. As for your invitation, I would like visit Pakistan some day since my ancestors hailed from there but I don’t think it’s a good idea for an american of Indian origin to be there right now. Hey, if I convert to judaism, I’d be the perfect target, an American Indian Jew lol.
Anyways, your argument that anyone who’s not present in Pakistan doesen’t know what’s going on there is quite frivolous & ineffectual, especially in this day & age. You’re basically discrediting all the Pakistani & global media, who report anything on Pakistan & that’s quite insensate. When I or others refer to Pakistanis, we’re not reffering to the condition of an individual like yourself but rather that of the common man. You maybe fortunate enough to be born in a family that enjoys the comforts & luxuries of life but a vast majority of Pakistanis are fighting for their survival & struggling to afford the basic amenities of life. That’s a fact, whether you like it or not & whether you accept it or not.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Another good one by Nadeem Pracha (Dawn)

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn -content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/colu mnists/19-nadeem-f-paracha-the-sinking-m iddleground-650-hh-02

An excerpt:

“While actors like the 7/7 bombers and Faisal Shahzad are an obvious embarrassment to Pakistan and to the Pakistani communities in the West, so are the growing number of rabid, tech-savvy young people floating around various interactive websites to mouth the most obnoxious ideas about Islam and politics. There are websites out there glorifying utter mad men and the most twisted conspiracy theories, and many of these are owned, run and frequented by Pakistanis who work and are comfortably settled in western countries”

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Umair,

Your constant threats of nuclear attacks are just hilarious. It’s the kind of threat a grade school kid would make.

Anyway, it’ll never come to pass. Forget an official strike. If a nuke was used against western forces and it was somehow traced back to Pakistan, that alone would be the end of Pakistan.

They US would not even need to attack Pakistan. A month long blockade by the US Navy would bring Pakistan to its knees.

To the rest,

Brian Cloughey’s record as Pakistani shill is well known. Reuters throws him in once in a while to stir the pot. Take it for what it is.

I am sure he represents the Pakistani view well. However, Pakistanis should understand that they aren’t in the driver’s seat any more. The gave up control, the day their proxies started causing trouble for the US (long before 9/11). Now, regardless, of what happens in Afghanistan, the Americans will get a say in running Pakistan. And if Pakistanis don’t like it, they are always free to pass up on the only country that gives them aid (for all that talk about China and Russia, they are in reality never nearly as generous as the US,and the rest of the West). There is absolutely no way Pakistan can survive without aid. I am doubtful at this point that cohesion of the state could be maintained without significant foreign assistance. Think of all the projects being undertaken in far flung regions. Clinics and school and roads in NWFP and Balochistan. That is all from Western aid. And that’s holding Pakistan together. If their pride is an issue, Pakistanis are free to pass the aid up and risk the cohesion of their state. Nobody said they never had a choice.

But this tiresome act (put on well here by Mr. Cloughey) of taking the aid with one hand then complaining about having to their share is reminiscent of children who think that they can tell their parents that they don’t need to eat their vegetables and do their homework before they go play outside. Were Pakistanis more mature and if they took more responsibility for their fate and the problems inside their country, the relationship wouldn’t be so lobsided. But it is what it is and so the US will continue to treat Pakistan like the petulant problem child that it is.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

Umair wrote:

“fix your hell hole first then point fingers towards us”
—-

And yet the majority of your countrymen, if they were given a US visa tomorrow, would take the first flight out of Pakistan to the US that they could.

If you think the US is a hellhole with 100 times the per capita GDP (while in a recession), decade longer life expectancy, significantly higher education levels, much lower levels of income distribution disparities, better infrastructure, and better social services, then pray tell how you describe Pakistan?

The US has its problems to be sure. But don’t get cocky. You aren’t in their league. Actually, you aren’t even playing the same sport. When you catch up to Greece, maybe then we’ll talk.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

@Enjoy while you think Pakistan is a miserable things, i would say Pakistan is the best kept secret of the world. Its good that you guys are not fully aware of us, sometimes they say ignorance is a blessing, seems true in your case.
Posted by Umairpk

—-Ooh la la!

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

After reading all the comments here…one thing is absolutely sure that this author is on Pakistan’s payroll…but this is also true that Pakistan is fighting the battle of its survival out of its skins…its sad to c the brave sons of pakistan die like this…but this was to happen one day…one gets what one sows…america got a taste of its own medicine (of creating bin laden to counter USSR) on 9/11 and now its pakistan’s turn to taste its own medicine of brooming terrorism…its bitter but its the truth…for people like Umair I am more sympathatic with him rather than like most people here who ridicule him…Sympathetic because he is young and still he believes in lies of Pak administration….If the youth of the nation is misled like this then one must know that nation is in grave danger because the bulk of human energy is directed to self destruction…and i dont know when the hell pakistanis (common man and administration both) will realize that their one and only honest hope is peace with India…the day Pakistan makes peace with India its problems will start getting solved…yes it is better to trade with India and mutually progress rather than live on US alms and be dictated and insulted by them on a regular basis…I hope one day youth of pakistan sees thru the lies of their PA and ISI and joins Indian hand of friendship…hence I do agree with Clinton…Pakistanis need to do more!!!

Posted by 007XXX | Report as abusive
 

The commentry is hillarious to its utmost. i am trying to remember the latin sentence about the Roman empire;
Roma duit fluid, nunc potens minus est.
I am not sure about the spelling accuracy, but the translation is that ROME FLOURISHED LONG, NOW IT HAS LOST ITS POWER:
Gentlemen, this is what the status of the USA is. the rag tag leftover advisers of the George W together with the clintonians headed by the “yes we Can” and the wall street locusts ( ‘heuoschrecken’ in German). You guy till believe that the USA has the metal to threaten the military with nukes and missiles, not forgetting the Indian born military chief who was cowed by the afro american opposite number, has left the country.
The Pashtoon taliban eagles have exposed to the world and the Afghan Govt. their capability against the US marines and the NATO armada. The Tallibans are refusing the peace talk offer by the USA and MNr Karzai. The lady is likely to be fired by the ” We can” Mr Obama since she has not managed to improve the USA image in the world. In fact their allies including Turkey Japan and Germany want the USA baggage out of their country now.

Gen. Kyani can hold on to the use of his tactics until the new man takes the helms of the military. Comparing to his predecessor he has at least kept his attention away from its neighbour and big brother India.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive
 

—-Ooh la la!

Rajeev, is this what you say to the other male dancers?

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive
 

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