In Pakistan, making sense of the “do more” mantra

May 19, 2010

damadola2White House National Security Adviser Jim Jones and CIA director Leon Panetta are visiting Pakistan to step up pressure on militant groups following this month’s failed car-bombing in New York’s Times Square. But what specifically do they want from Pakistan in what has now become a familiar “do more” mantra from the U.S. administration?  That, as yet, is not entirely clear.

The Washington Post and the New York Times quoted unnamed administration officials as saying Jones and Panetta would press Pakistan to step up its military action against Pakistani and Afghan Taliban militants based in its tribal areas bordering Afghanistan.

“Officials say the administration has been pleased so far with Pakistani cooperation in the investigation (into the failed Times Square bombing), which has focused on any role insurgent groups there might have played in helping to train and otherwise assist bombing suspect Faisal Shahzad,” the Washington Post reported. ”But officials said that Jones and Panetta intend to reiterate to the Pakistanis the importance that the administration places on more aggressive military action against groups allied with al Qaeda in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas, or FATA.”

The New York Times quoted a senior administration official as saying that General Jones would not threaten the Pakistanis, but would convey the risks to the country’s relationship with the United States if a deadly terrorist attack originated there. He planned to prod them to take tougher steps against the Taliban and other insurgent groups, the newspaper quoted the official as saying.

“While General Jones’s specific requests were not clear,” according to the newspaper, “the senior administration official said he might ask Pakistan’s military to push harder into North Waziristan, the main base for the Pakistani Taliban, al Qaeda and other militant groups.”

“There is creeping frustration,” it quoted the administration official as saying.  “Some people are asking, ‘Why are they not going into North Waziristan?’ ” Among the other possible American requests, it said, were more intense surveillance of suspected terrorists and allowing more American military advisers to operate in Pakistan. The United States is also proposing to open a new consulate in Quetta, in southwestern Pakistan, where the C.I.A. would likely have a sizable presence.

The Pakistan Army says it is already stretched fighting in other parts of the tribal areas and is reluctant to rush into a new offensive in North Waziristan until it has consolidated its gains elsewhere.  It launched a major operation in South Waziristan last year, and is now engaged in heavy fighting in Orakzai to the north after clearing out other tribal areas.  As a result it is slowly tightening a noose around North Waziristan.  (The Long War Journal has a good map showing where Orakzai is in relation to North Waziristan.)

The army’s view on North Waziristan seems to have won some sympathy from the U.S. military, whose recent language on Pakistan has tended to be more conciliatory than that of non-military officials in the U.S. administration.  “They have a plan, and they have been executing this plan the way that he (Pakistan Army chief General Ashfaq Pervez Kayani) originally first laid this out to some of us over 18 months ago,” U.S. General David Petraeus told the Council on Foreign Relations.

“There’s a bit of misperception that the Pakistani Army and Frontier Corps have not conducted operations in North Waziristan. In fact they have,” he added. ”… what the army leadership has pointed out — is that there won’t be a bulldozer-like operation, there wouldn’t be a D-Day kind of affair as they carried out in eastern South Waziristan and as they’ve carried out to a degree in Orakzai and some of the agencies. Rather, what they would have is a series of targeted operations that indeed they have carried out, and that over time as they would be able to consolidate the gains in these other areas they would be able to expand the security umbrella into North Waziristan as well.”

In a Washington-datelined article,  Pakistan’s Dawn newspaper quoted an unnamed official as saying the Americans were not asking for an offensive in North Waziristan.

Before flying out of Washington on Monday night, the newspaper said, General Jones spoke with Pakistan’s Ambassador Husain Haqqani and discussed with him the outlines of a message they were carrying from President Barack Obama. The basic concept was the same as that of Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, who warned that Pakistani would face “very severe consequences” if an attack on the United States, planned on the Pakistani soil, were to succeed.

“But the tone of the new message is different. Instead of threatening Pakistanis with severe consequences, the two senior officials are telling their Pakistani interlocutors that if an attack planned in Pakistan succeeded, no U.S. administration will be able to control the American public opinion. To avoid such a situation, they are offering to work with the Pakistanis for stamping out the groups that recruit overseas Pakistanis and other Muslims for carrying out terrorist attacks,” it said.

“There’s no threat, no do-mores or if-nots,” it quoted an official familiar with the new U.S. approach as saying. “The message is: Let’s take our cooperation to the next level and work together to obliterate this threat.”

Echoing a point made by the New York Times,  Dawn also said the Americans were worried about how Shahzad was apparently able to make contact with people in Pakistan and then travel to North Waziristan and back without drawing the attention of Pakistani intelligence services.

So will the visit lead to better intelligence-sharing? More surveillance? More equipment – including helicopters – to help the Pakistanis to fight in the tribal areas?  None of those are a game-changer. But then again, as Bruce Riedel argues here, U.S. options on Pakistan are fairly limited. Perhaps more limited than those who would like a quick solution care to imagine.

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[...] suspect — Hindustan TimesU.S. pressures Pakistan on Times Square bomb-attempt case — CNNIn Pakistan, making sense of the “do more” mantra — CNNUS Security Officials in Pakistan on Failed NYC Bombing — Voice of AmericaCIA [...]

Kayani is retiring soon. It will be interesting to see who replaces him and what kind of mindset he comes with. Militants have been lined up inside Azad Kashmir for launching an offensive into Indian side of the Kashmir, just in time when North Waziristan operations will be pressed. This is to intensify reaction from the Indian side and then use that as an excuse for lack of progress in North Waziristan. Pak military is working on a trap right now to draw India into the game so that it can deflect the American pressure off and protect its assets inside North Waziristan. Hope the pea brains in the US think tank look at the overall picture and not allow Pak military to slip out. It is the real villain. Indian side of Kashmir is going to see a major burst of activities soon. The slumbering sloths inside India need to watch their backs. Something terrible is going to be inflicted this summer inside India and it will strangely coincide with North Waziristan offensive. Mark my words.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

The Pakistanis have to realize that they’re on thin ice here & the next terror attack in the US or west (successful or foiled) with links to Pakistan, will be the straw that finally breaks the camel’s back. It’s about time, the Pakistani army sense the urgency & becomes serious in fighting terror rather than taking it’s own sweet time in fighting a selective war. The double game of protecting terror outifts like the Quetta Shura, Haqqanis & Hekmtayar networks and the various Punjabi outfits will prove to be extremely dangerous for Pakistan & could very well be the final nail in it’s coffin. The reality is, that despite the bravado & tough talk of the Pakistani military establsihment & their cronies, Pakistan would implode within weeks of stoppage of US aid, IMF loans & strict sanctions imposed on it by the US & allies.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

@KPSingh01: Are you from an intelligence agency? You say these things with such surety that one is compelled to believe all this. Why army backed militants would be launching an attack on India? When we are already facing so many hardships and please also shed some light on the role of Indian intelligence personnel in Baluchistan?

Posted by SZaman88 | Report as abusive

“please also shed some light on the role of Indian intelligence personnel in Baluchistan?

Well Zaman, The Indian Intel in baluch is, what should i say, just in its infant state now. We are growing in strength for sure. We always have the ISI to look for inspiration. And God willing, within no time the Indian Intel will be all over the place .. Inshallah ..
fingers crossed man.. Zaman, wish us luck

Posted by grey_on_all | Report as abusive

Pakistan is doing as best as it could with its limited resources. Now if any so called intellectual gets up one day and while having his morning tea starts ranting about “Do more” mantra, I think he needs to get a control over him or herself. I agree that times are difficult and probably the world in altogether has become an unsafe place. Pakistan alone cannot be blamed for this.

Posted by YasirQ | Report as abusive

zaman88 writes:

“Are you from an intelligence agency? You say these things with such surety that one is compelled to believe all this.”

I watch the trends and based on past history, make up my predictions. There is a BBC article recently that mentions about militants piling up near the LoC. For a while these elements were quiet. If they are regrouping, there is something brewing. And typically it originates from Pakistan’s army or its ISI. One thing is very clear to us. Your nefarious organizations (military and ISI) have always been behind efforts to draw India into a conflict (since 2001, one thing after another has been tried and the US has pressed India to back off). The US knows that if India gets drawn into a conflict with Pakistan, their objectives cannot be met in Af-Pak.

“Why army backed militants would be launching an attack on India?”

See above. This is like a chess game. Pak army has nothing left to lose. Its back is to the wall. If they are forced to go into North Waziristan, things can backfire on them. The BBC article says none of the militants are Kashmiris. I’ll dig up the link for you.

“When we are already facing so many hardships and please also shed some light on the role of Indian intelligence personnel in Baluchistan?”

These are all simple counter points. There is no evidence presented to show that India has sabotaged anything in Balochistan. No one other than Pakistanis are claiming this. Indian intelligence agency, like any other intelligence agency in the world, gathers intelligence. There is nothing wrong in that. And that is something which cannot be stopped. RAW could not even prevent Mumbai attacks from happening. You are giving too much credit to the Indian intelligence system just to cover for the wrongdoings of the ISI which does things beyond what intelligence agencies would normally do. ISI has modeled itself after the CIA and has been trained by it.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

grey_on_all:
“Well Zaman, The Indian Intel in baluch is, what should i say, just in its infant state now. We are growing in strength for sure. We always have the ISI to look for inspiration. And God willing, within no time the Indian Intel will be all over the place .. Inshallah ..”

Wow! good. Tell you what bro, Pakistan is not what it was in 1971, helpless against Indian support of Mukti Bahni insurgent. and ISI is pretty capable of beating the sh*t out of whatever intel assets India is trying to muster in Baluchistan. And one more thing, India must rather worry more about the Maoist insurgency, ‘Karachi project’ and many ISI sleeper cells in India, including SIMI, Indian Mujahideen etc. India will be up in flames as well if something happens in Baluchistan.

Now to the do more mantra, I think both US administration and Pakistan are in a difficult situation. Pakistan needs more NVGs, more F-16s, more helicopter gunships. After training and supporting Afghan Mujahideen during the Soviet occupation of Pakistan, now both Pakistan and US need to correct the mistakes of the past. One thing US must not attempt to do is to push Pakistan beyond the limits of normal endurance. Pakistan Army has taken many casualties, even Pakistan Air Force has now stepped up its campaign of precision bombing. We are doing the right thing, we will do it our way and on our own pace at our own terms. We will not push our country towards civil war. We will go into North Waziristan if and when it is in our national interests. In Pakistan, US advisors should not be allowed, also no consulate is required in Quetta otherwise it will be used as a CIA outpost.
Pakistan, a nuclear power and a muslim nation of 170 million muslims with a fairly well trained military could pose a tough challenge for US if it does not play by the rules of the game.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

*Typo:
Soviet occupation of Afghanistan (2nd paragraph)

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

It’s quite amazing as to how much credit, Pakistanis give to India’s RAW. As someone who lived in India till my early teens & travelled there every almost every year ever since, I didn’t even know what RAW was till I was 21 years old & I learned about it from, you guessed it, a Pakistani. Most school & college going kids in India barely know anything about RAW, as opposed to Pakistani kids who know about ISI even before they pop out of their mother’s womb. So, either RAW is the best kept secret in the world or it is what it actually seems; an inert & hybernating outfit.

Despite the claims by Pakistanis about RAW’s involvement in Baluchistan, FATA etc, the truth is that unfortunately they’re false. I say “unfortunately” because RAW should absolutely be involved in activities in Pakistan because at the end of the day, the Pakistani military mafia is the personification of a petulant punk who does not understand the language of civility. It needs to be given a taste of it’s own medicine & smacked hard a few times for things to make sense to it.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Zaman88,

Here is the BBC link that I had mentioned.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/86 83367.stm

Your military is pretending to be putting off fire in one place, while setting it off in another place. Since it is your military your vision is limited. We can see it from a distance very clearly. Your military is destroying your country.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Umairpk: “We are doing the right thing, we will do it our way and on our own pace at our own terms. We will not push our country towards civil war. We will go into North Waziristan if and when it is in our national interests.”

This pretty much means, “Please do not ask us to go into North Waziristan. It will expose our hidden secrets and valuable assets that we have hidden over the years. And these elements can knock our pants off and we’ll be forced to run for our lives.”

May be Pak military can try marching into North Waziristan by waving white flags! All the weapons and macho chest thumping with nuclear weapons mean nothing when it comes to “brothers.”

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

As I said before the next stage is Somalification of pakistan…bleak economic prospects, plummeting investments, increasing ethnic strife…source of income is alms from USA.

Riots and sectarian violence are going to explode all over. Just look at the news from Karachi. Indeed. Karachi project!.

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive

@ “Riots and sectarian violence are going to explode all over. Just look at the news from Karachi. Indeed. Karachi project!” Posted by Seekeroftruth

You should know better man! The “Karachi project” is actually planned & executed by RAW to inflame sectarian violence in Karachi.

On a serious note, a hope my Pakistani friends realize that these are the kind of projects you get in your own home when you plan them for others. I sympathize with everyone who was victimized by the senseless violence in Karachi.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

It is normal Washington practice to use well-timed media leaks in Washington Post, New York Times, CBS and other media, including blogs, twitter and new social media, to effect changes in policies and behaviors within and outside the United States. Such leaks are almost always attributed to unnamed officials, and intended to put pressure to act in ways preferred by the leakers.

In its recent issue, the Newsweek describes how President Obama himself became the target of such pressure tactics during his Afghan policy review last year, when the Pentagon started leaking various memos to force Obama to comply with a massive troop surge and open-ended US commitment in Afghanistan.

Will the increased pressure work to achieve US objectives in Afghanistan and Pakistan? It is hard to tell, particularly because of Pakistani military’s stretched resources and its sensitivity against yielding to US pressure. Similar tactics by Washington against Afghan President reportedly failed badly when Mr. Hamid Karzai threatened to “join the Taliban” rather than yield to American pressure. In the end, Obama ended up making amends for the failed tactics by showing extraordinary hospitality to Mr. Karazi during his recent trip to Washington.

If the US pressure does succeed in pushing the Pakistani military to comply and take on multiple groups the US labels as “terrorists” in various parts of Pakistan, it may end up precipitating a long and bloody civil war in that country. The last thing the world needs is further destabilization of nuclear armed Pakistan. A long and bloody civil war in Pakistan will be far more dangerous for the US, South Asia-West Asia region and the World. A much more deliberate and thoughtful strategy is required to rid Pakistan and the World of the scourge of domestic and intentional terrorism.

http://www.riazhaq.com/2010/05/us-media- leaks-designed-to-push.html

Posted by HaqsMusings | Report as abusive

“It is normal Washington practice to use well-timed media leaks in…”

Is it abnormal for ISI to plant stories in pakistani media and elsewhere to propagate its sponsorship and support to terrorists?

Not sure what the musings are about.

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive

Haqmusings: “If the US pressure does succeed in pushing the Pakistani military to comply and take on multiple groups the US labels as “terrorists” in various parts of Pakistan, it may end up precipitating a long and bloody civil war in that country. The last thing the world needs is further destabilization of nuclear armed Pakistan. A long and bloody civil war in Pakistan will be far more dangerous for the US, South Asia-West Asia region and the World. A much more deliberate and thoughtful strategy is required to rid Pakistan and the World of the scourge of domestic and intentional terrorism.”

For the sake of regional and world piece, I sometimes feel that it is better to allow Pakistan to collapse internally and divide up into smaller nations. Pakistan is an experiment that failed. It has proved clearly that religion cannot be used to bind people and keep them cohesive. Enemies are created and it becomes impossible to keep the cohesiveness alive without the common enemy. We cannot go on being someone’s appointed enemy. That is the crux of the problem. Just like the USSR collapsed and disappeared, the entity called Pakistan will collapse. The only things that are holding it together are its military and the common enemy, “India.” The world economy is on the verge of falling again. Greek tragedy might spread and bring EU to a stage of collapse. Western countries are going to come under enormous pressure to stem the economic slide, address unemployment problems and other myriad of issues. They are going to get out of Af-Pak soon. But they will end up doing something desperate to knock the radical elements hard before that. And this is where Pakistan’s future will be decided. An already fragile system with the potential to fall onto itself, Pakistan may plunge into civil war. The radicals are gaining by the day despite all the assurances given by the Pak military.
As an Indian, my only worry is that the collapse of Pakistan does not affect India. We certainly want Pakistan to come out of the brink and emerge as a strong democratic nation. But conditions do not appear favorable at present. Obama is the only one who can help save Pakistan from a certain collapse.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

After the billions USD of taxpayers money, Pakistani’s have some nerve asking what else do you want from us.

Here is what we want:

arrest/jail/capture/eliminate:

Quetta Shura, Haqqani and Hekmtayar network and LeT, JuM and all extremist groups. The west wants Pakistan to use its so-called notorious ISI and brave PA to flatten these groups and destroy them. They are enemies of civlization and stability and progress.

In addition, Pak Army and ISI must cease and desist all terrorist activities against any country and destroy all terrorist training camps in Pakistan.

All of this is not a matter of money, but a matter of will to do the RIGHT thing. If Pakistan does not deliver, the U.S. will push Pakistan to the brink, if it needs to. Pakistan’s very survival depends on its action on all of these terror groups and that they are, by any national standard.

Pakistani’s do not need to worry about Indians, Indians are not killing Pakistani’s it is Islamic Foreign fighters and Pakistani’s from within destablilizing Pakistan.

As Pakistan keeps privatizing parts of its country, just to pay interest, it seems at times that Pakistan is on the inevitable path of civil war, perhaps some element of that is needed to purge Pakistan of all anti-civilizational elements that embrace backwardness. This may be the greatest calling to the Pakistani Army and the Pakistani people, a fight for their very existence on their very own soil, against those Islamists who are trying to drag all Pakistani’s down into a pit of hell by waging some fictitious jihad on anybody that is not muslim.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

@ASingh,

In the event of civil war, God willing that never happens, rest assured the National Community will confiscate those nxkes, as they are useless to Pakistan in the event of a civil war, they should not ever fall into the wrong hands.

The one thing bigger than religion in Pakistan, is the need of the PA to maintain its grip on power. This whole business of creating terrorism to destablize its neighbours on both sides has brought all the chickens home to roost.

The final war stop of the Pak Army will be Urban Insurgency warfare against its own Frankenstein, 3D hand to hand fighting in the cities and streets, up hallways, in bldgs, in basements, where ever the Extremists are, there will at one point come a time, where the extremists will have to be flushed out of Pakistan by force, by the PA.

With the economic bloodbath and little to show in terms of vast progress in pakistan, the West may seek desperate bone crushing measures to see heightened progress in Pakistan against extremist elements.

My sincere hope is that Pakistani’s wake up, unite and form a large united political front against all extremist organizations and declare them enemies of the state while the Pak Army shows its true mettle by beating these guys and eliminating any further influence they have.

Once Pakistan cleans it act up, the Army needs to step aside, politically and then India should share all it can to elevate Pakistan and to some extent mentor its younger family of Pakistan to a greater way of living and greater prosperity.

It is time that Pakistan start shoring up its internal security and get ready for this fight and be pre-emptive and pro-active urban insurgency warfare, which will be a matter of when, not if.

As it stands the corrupt and undergunned municipal police and Pak Army are not ready to do the real gritty and dirty urban warfare, like the U.S. did on the streets of Baghdad.

Brace for impact, best be ready than not.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

Pakistan is using a double yardstick , with regard to dossiers furnished by Indians on 26/11, despite glaring evidence, Pakistan has yet to act , but as far NY Time Square failed bomb attack, Pakistanis have acted in an unprecedented frenzy .With regard to 26/11,Pakistanis in the beginning flatly denied Pakistani involvement . Later in the event of mounting international pressure, Pakistan then admitted involvement of its people so called “Non State Actor” , but Pakistan is yet to act on the evidences provided by India. Pakistani society is hypocrite. If they are serious about rooting out the menace of terrorism, they must start cleaning out Pak army and its surrogate ISI .

Posted by manishindia | Report as abusive

GW :

In order to improve the situation in Pakistan, Pakistanis must forget that they are sole custodians of islam in the world, there are muslims living all over the world. whether muslims in Afghanistan or in Iraq or in Palestine, they are capable of defending themselves. Secondly Pakistanis must realize that poverty and lack of development are the biggest enemy of mankind, incidentally majority of muslims live in world’s most poorest countries including Pakistan . Pakistanis must focus on development , education, child mortality etc.

Posted by manishindia | Report as abusive

@”Pakistan is using a double yardstick , with regard to dossiers furnished by Indians on 26/11, despite glaring evidence, Pakistan has yet to act , but as far NY Time Square failed bomb attack, Pakistanis have acted in an unprecedented frenzy” Posted by manishindia

The reason is quite simple: fear of retribution. Can you imagine, what would have become of Pakistan if 10 Pakistanis would’ve killed 165 people in Hilton or Marriott in NY or Chicago? There’s no doubt that India has been super-soft when dealing with Pakistan over the years. I can’t imagine of any other country, who’s citizens have been constantly targeted by state sponsored terrorism & done as little as India has. All, the Indian Govt has ever done is just call of talks with the Pakistanis & that’s it. Sensing the anger of the poeple, they woke up a little bit after the Mumbai attacks but before that there has hardly been a peep over the countless attacks in Indian cities by Pakistani “non-state actors”. There’s a fine line between being a peace-loving nation & being taken for granted & there’s no question that Pakistan has been taking India for granted all these years. I’m not saying that India needs to go to war with Pakistan every time there’s an attack in India but they can certainly do a lot of things to hurt Pakistan without going to war. The least they can do is, make the fantasies of Pakistanis come true & activate RAW’s activities inside Pakistan. I hope those sleeping beauties wake up & start playing some offense instead of waiting for another attack to happen in India & playing defense.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

And the plot thickens.

“Pakistani Major Among 2 New Arrests in Times Square Bombing” – NY Times

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/22/world/ asia/22pstan.html?hp=&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1 274540444-eZug6OyKMW2PxdRhzXmcbQ

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Mortal: “The reason is quite simple: fear of retribution. Can you imagine, what would have become of Pakistan if 10 Pakistanis would’ve killed 165 people in Hilton or Marriott in NY or Chicago?”

Pakistani army has been reliant on the US for everything. Cold war geo-politics worked out to Pakistan’s advantage and put India at the receiving end. The US and its vassal states like UK, France, Germany, Canada, Australia etc sided with Pakistan out and out until the end of the Soviet empire. They turned a blind eye to whatever Pakistan did. None of them condemned the genocide inside East Pakistan. But they came down hard on India for putting an end to that genocide. Indians were subjected to a lot of restrictions everywhere. Pakistanis filled up UK. UK almost became like a second home for middle and upper class Pakistanis. Canada was another place Pakistanis populated. All the relationships and reliance built over those years have not disappeared into thin air. There is still a lot of sympathy for Pakistan left from those years. One can even see this pro-Pakistani bias in the articles written by many Western authors including the one who wrote this article. And Pakistan has exploited that to the hilt. They know that they need this Western support to settle their scores with India at whatever cost. And this has given an air of arrogance in Pakistanis towards India.

To go against the US would mean losing all the cozy comforts built over decades. To go against India does not result in any losses for them. India has been the only uniting factor for Pakistan. Without India, they would have fallen apart much faster. Look at their cricket team. It is highly talented, but is teribly divided. They sabotage each other even to the point of losing the game and series. But if they play India, everything changes. There is a sudden recharge across the whole team and it gets the best talent and the worst attitude out of them.

Messing with India keeps Pakistan going. Messing with the US would lead to their self destruction. That is why they do not like the recent economic relationship between India and the US. India has done well because of that relationship. Otherwise, it would have stayed a backward nation, which is what Pakistanis like to see. Until 1991, that was the case. And the US tilt towards India after cold war has resulted in more anti-US venom in Pakistani public, while its military is still milking the US by staging conflicts continuously.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

@ KPSingh,

I understand that the dynamics of the Pakistan-US relations are quite different from that of Pakistan-India. The problem I have is with India’s ultra-soft defensive attitude while dealing with Pakistan & it’s utter lack of reponse to Pakistan’s state sponsored terrorism in India for 20+ years. Pakistan’s arrogance & belligerance towards India also has a lot to do with their confidence that no matter how many Indian cities thay bomb or how many indian civilians they kill, India’s response will cause negligible damage to Pakistan, at best. Anyways, I hope that things have chenged after the Mumbai attacks & the Indian establishment has woken up from it’s sweet slumber for good.

@ “And the US tilt towards India after cold war has resulted in more anti-US venom in Pakistani public”

You’re absoluetely right about that. Anti-Americanism has grown quite rapidly in Pakistan since the betterment of US-India relations & specifically since the nuclear deal between the two.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Mortal:
Thanks for sharing NY Times link,I live merely at an arms length of the Pakistani Army HQ in Rawalpindi and work in Islamabad almost blocks away from the parliament. My father served in Pakistan Air Force and I studied mostly at an Army school.
Having said that, the link you shared I would like to comment on NY Times story.
I put forward a question to you. How would you feel if you were a Pakistani and American aircrafts (Spy planes) would fire missiles on your country and kill innocent people?
We have had scientists and experts from Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission who went to meet terrorists in Afghanistan. Luckily they didnt do damage and were arrested. Today we have a military and intelligence service, ISI and IB (local Intelligence Bureau). I assume there are factions who are pro-west but also some factions support Mujahideen or whatever you want to call them. Or simply put some factions in Pakistan’s establishment are against the west to an extent. We have a big problem now, former Military officers who are retired but have expertise, people working on Pakistan’s nuclear program how to ensure top security clearence. One thing I would urge you is stop looking at Pakistan Army high command as part of the problem.
Nothing that I state is supposed to suggest that NY Times square bomb plot was justified, the Mumbai attacks were not justified either.
But we have multiple problems in Pakistan. Al-Qaeda and Arab fighters holed up in Waziristan. Punjabi millitant groups (Sunni-sectarian ones) Lashkar-Jhangvi, etc have now turned against establishment/Army and joined hands with TTP(Tehrik Taliban Pak). So its, Al-Qaeda, Pak Taliban, Punjabi groups (North Waziristan is a tinderbox) and when Pakistan Army goes in there we want to ensure we win.We have a disaffected Pushtun population at Pak-Afghan border region. There is a war on next door Afghanistan since last 30 years, we have hostile relations with India, Kashmir problem. Again we have LeT(Lashkar Taiba) who are focused on India. I accept, problems are multiple, our hands are full, change is happening. Being at the centre of everything, I can give you perspective from Pakistan that our military, civilian government is doing the right things. We have taken so many casualties, even I have lost a friend Capt. Omar in the war, another of my father’s colleague Group Captain in Air Force his son, a LT. lost his foot when struck by an Rocket propelled Grenade.
You must know, things are not as simple as they look. God forbid, if reckless American war lead Pakistan towards civil unrest things will not look good for anyone. What if things go so much out of hand that someone in Pakistan’s nuclear programme breaches the security of Pakistan’s weapons? Any of Pakistan’s cities or world’s city might be struck by a ‘dirty bomb’ or crude nuke.
For now things are under control, Pakistan military is working according to a plan and we need all international support we can get (not all $$$ ofcourse). The SPD-Strategic Plans Division has a professional, robust, command and control system and safeguards/custodial controls over Pakistan’s nuclear programme. Pakistan’s armed forces are confident, professional, capable of dealing with challenges of the future at all levels. we need to maintain our training, capacity etc.
If Pakistan and by extension Afghanistan are left alone to themselves, consequences will be horrific for all. Afterall, it is because of the sacrifice by Pakistan and struggle by Afghanistan that ended the Soviet expansion and eventually eastern europe emerged free.
India can help by solving all issues including Kashmir. This is the only way forward. Now you know where does the anti-Americanism come from? and FYI you still have misconceptions. After all this I would say Pakistan is already doing a lot more, we have been push to the limits and need some breathing space to work with. So far the NY Times bomb plot investigation is going good, CIA Dir. Leon Panetta, National Security advisor James John and Gen. McChrystal visited Pakistan recently and both countries are working together on this investigation.

Unfortunately, with India we do not have such working relationship. Otherwise the investigation on Mumbai attacks must have gone furter as well.
Lastly, it should be clear that Pakistan’s military is certainly not part of the problem. Infact, when it comes to Pakistan, probably the Pakistan military is the only bet. Also, you think: suicide bombings is a phenomenon that emerged in Pakistan after 2004 (American war in Afghanistan has pushed us towards instability). Before that Pakistan was a peaceful country to a large extent. But lack of tolerance and radicalism has grown in last few years.
But all is not lost, we will do whatever it takes to fix things. I hope one day we have true democracy, honest leaders, educated people. That way Pakistan will become what its founder wanted it to be. The idea of Pakistan will live and we will beat the odds. InshAllah.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Followup:
Every single soldier, sailor and airman of Pakistan Army, Navy and Air Force are as professional as any other military. There is complete unity of command and the different factions i mentioned above certain does not imply there are any rogue elements within Pakistan Armed forces.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

And the US tilt towards India after cold war has resulted in more anti-US venom in Pakistani public, while its military is still milking the US by staging conflicts continuously.
Posted by KPSingh01

But then this attitude is a manifestation of pakistani supremacist ideology. Trying to influence others through threats, wars, agitation and terrorism. If we go by this logic, Indians should have indulged in suicide bombings in NY and Chicago between 1947-2000.

Besides, until very recently, USA was looking the other way allowing pakistan to continue terrorism in India. 2008 ISI adventure in Mumabi made this policy untenable even for the US.

P.S
Umairpk’s latest epistle to Mortal should be filed under humor category.

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive

Umair,

It’s good to hear from you that terrorism in NY & Mumbai was not justified but I hope that it’s not merely lip service. I also hope that you & other Pakistanis are starting to realize that terrorism is a lethal cancer & no matter who it’s targeted at, it is ultimately self-destructive. Things aren’t always fair & there are disputes and injustices everywhere in the world but that does not mean that violence is the answer. Hatred & violence only breeds more of the same & ultimately you get caught up in it’s vicious web & choke. I can also tell you that the world would be a lot more sympathetic towards issues related to the muslim world if it did not live under the shadow of islamic terrorism.
What people like me want from Pakistanis like yourself is to stop making excuses & accept that there are some really bad people amongst your own who are doing some really bad things. We also want you to stop categorizing humans between muslims & “others”. I’m sorry for the loss of your friend who died in the line of duty but I also want you to be “sincerely” sorry for all those innocent people who have been victims of Islamic terrorism around the world.
When you say that Bin Laden is a CIA “asset” & that 9/11 was an “inside job”, you insult all those who lost their lives on that fateful day, including some friends & close acquaintances of mine. When you say that the Mumbai attacks were planned by the Indian Govt, you are insulting those who died that day, including the sister & brother-in-law of a close friend who were having dinner at Taj with their 2 young children. Similarly, when you blame RAW & CIA for the terror attacks within Pakistan instead of the monsters who actually conducted them, you insult the victims of those attacks.

As to what more can Pakistan do? Pakistan still has a substantial number of troops along the Indian border, when it is absolutely clear that the only real threat to Pakistan is posed by the terror outfits inside Pakistan. This fact has been acknowledged by various senior Pakistani diplomats, intellectuals & ex-military officers. So, with all these problems that you mentioned while dealing with so many different terror outfits, wouldn’t it make sense for your army to move those troops from the indian border to fight the terrorists who are killing your citizens, blowing up your cities & posing an existential threat to your country? There is no way on earth that India would attack Pakistan, while your army is sincerely taking on the terrorists in your country. Can you imagine the fallout from the US, west & the world if India were to do that & do you think Indian leaders would be stupid enough to let that happen?
The world simply wants your army to be sincere & eliminate all kinds or terrorism from your soil & no longer sheild anti-India or anti-Afghan groups for “strategic depth”. If you guys sincerely fight all kinds of terrorism on your country, I can assure you that the whole world will support you wholeheartedly & applaud and reward you for your efforts.

@”I put forward a question to you. How would you feel if you were a Pakistani and American aircrafts (Spy planes) would fire missiles on your country and kill innocent people?”
The entire area surrounding FATA is a war zone & unfortunately collateral damage is a part of wars. As pe the Long war journal, civilian casualties caused by the operation conducted by the Pakistani army is about 3 to 4 times more than that caused by the drones. Drones take off from Pakistani bases & with the approval of the Pakistani state. So, all your anger & grievances should be directed towards your establishment, who is letting these drones fly over your country. Also, haven’t
these drones killed some really high value targets like Baitullah Mehsud, who was creating havoc in Pakistan & supposedly killed your leader?
I sincerely hope that you guys are able to eliminate all forms of terrorism from your country & take it on the road to social & economic reform. If you guys do that, there’s
no reason why Pakistan can’t be as or more successful than India in every aspect. Inshah allah!

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Mortal
You must understand, US suffered from 9-11 only once, while in Pakistan we have 9-11s quite a few times. How many destructive attacks have Pakistan suffered? can you take note, university campuses, embassies/diplomatic missions, markets, schools, colleges, hospitals, roadside, almost everywhere there had been terror strikes. Still we faced it and brought it under control, the worst is over.
I do not accept anything exists such as Islamic terrorism. Terrorist has no religion, they use terror to meet their objectives. The action of a tiny minority who are not supported by most muslims, you cannot implicate entire muslims in the world.
I can also see you were affected by 9-11 tradegy in several ways. But what followed after that? was the attack on Iraq justified? were there any wmds found there? What is happening in Afghanistan now and the situation in Pakistan is due to what happened in Afghanistan since October 2001 invasion by US.

Yes there are bad guys among us who are cowards and go hide in Waziristan. That is where our brave soldiers confront them and drag them out of their caves. Now those bad guys have no choice, kill, be killed or surrender, one by one they will meet their fate.

True bulk of our forces are stationed with Indo-Pakistan border. That is because Indian Army’s offensive divisions are almost all of them facing towards Pakistan. We cannot leave that border unguarded and already a significant redeployment of troops have taken place. Your assumption that India will not attack Pakistan is not something a military commander will go by. In 1971 India dismembered Pakistan’s eastern wing and the world stood watching did nothing. A big reason for Pakistan’s sense of insecurity has led to development of nuclear capability.
I also sympathise with you on all near and dear ones lost their lives in terror strikes. And I can tell you the termendous sacrifices and losses incurred by our Army. We do not want applaud, or recognition. We are doing the right thing and will keep up.

Your explanation of collateral damage and justification of drone attacks is where the problem lies. Pakistan Air Force chief has stated on record of Pakistan’s ability to shoot down drones and day night all weather capability. But what would be the political fallout of Pakistan opens fire on US personnel or military aircrafts? Mostly these drones frequently kill innocent people than high value targets. It was said sometime back that Hakeemullah Mehsud was killed, but he is still alive appearing in a recent video. Also, it is clear Pakistan and US have disagreements over drones. Pakistan has repeatedly asked US to provide us with drone attack aircrafts but US does not want to give us sensitive technology. Had Pakistan’s military been carrying out such operations itself it would not have made a lot of controversy.

And our company’s corporate office is in US and my immediate manager to whom I report has been to US twice. He hails from Frontier(Pashtun) region and well settled educated person living in Islamabad. He is not religious and likes the west. Most recently he went to visit US on business in February/March. This week he called me to a meeting to discuss some work. After that our meeting turned informal, he looked confused and asked me about concept of Jihad. he is reading his prayers more regularly these days. Same profile as Faisal shahzad, 30 years old, Pashtun, educated, previliged background and now vulnerable. On CNN one of psychologist experts was commenting that such indivuduals go to the west and then when they are affected by the situation in Pakistan, they feel guilt of their association with the west. So I explained to him the concept of Jihad (only goverment of the day can declare Jihad against non-muslims), and pointed out the history of SovietAfghan war and roots of the conflict. Since my background is different, the situation affects me in a different way. However, to sum it up, the middle class educated people in Pakistan who have links to west are now vulnerable to get radicalised. These are people who are not religious minded, but they have roots in Pakistan and the situation here has started to affect them. We are not talking about teenagers who are illetrate and recruited to take part in terror attacks. The situation will affect every one if policy is not corrected. However ofcourse there is no justification of violence despite that.
Now you tell me, aren’t the US drone attacks making murderers out of moderate people? Imagine, you have a US visa on your passport, you go to visit US on business only to come back and find a missile fired by a US aircraft has killed scores of people in your village. and this is happening on daily basis.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Mortal :

Instead being offensive , Indian govt led by Man Mohan Singh has offered to talk peace , it is difficult how can India talk peace or resume peace dialogue with a country who has left no stone unturned to bleed the country ?

Posted by manishindia | Report as abusive

Mortal
You must understand, US suffered from 9-11 only once, while in Pakistan we have 9-11s quite a few times.

Posted by Umairpk

It is truly absurd to equate pakistanis bombing, indulging in terrorist activities INSIDE pakistan with pakistani terrorist activity outside pakistan.

pakistan army produced, nurtured and sponsored these terrorists, and some of them turning against their masters at GHQ cannot be equated with pakistan army’s terrorist activities in India and elsewhere.

23/05/2010
Mumbai trains serial blasts probe reveals Pakistani link

http://news.in.msn.com/national/article. aspx?cp-documentid=3934835

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive

Umairpk: “How would you feel if you were a Pakistani and American aircrafts (Spy planes) would fire missiles on your country and kill innocent people?”

Let me pose a counter question: “How would you feel if you were an Indian and Pakistani trained militants walk in and massacring innocent people on the streets of Mumbai and other places?”

Would you care to explain my question? Why does it matter when Pakistanis are affect and does not matter when others are?

“We have had scientists and experts from Pakistan Atomic Energy Commission who went to meet terrorists in Afghanistan. Luckily they didnt do damage and were arrested.”

Your military was behind all the nuclear transactions. Do not play naive here. It was your military that was doing all the business and AQ Khan was projected as the real culprit and Pak military washed out everything. Khan was symbolically arrested and then pardoned by the “President” who himself was the military general. You need to realize that others are not fools. We do not buy carefully projected lies.

“Today we have a military and intelligence service, ISI and IB (local Intelligence Bureau).”

Only today? How about yesterday and the day before?

“I assume there are factions who are pro-west but also some factions support Mujahideen or whatever you want to call them. Or simply put some factions in Pakistan’s establishment are against the west to an extent.”

This is an understatement. We all know all along that right from the time of Zia Ul Haq, radicalization of Pak military and intelligence has been encouraged. What we are seeing is the fruition of those efforts taken three decades ago. These things do not happen overnight. Pak military was run by Westernized, non-religious commanders before Zia took over. Ayub Khan belonged to the class that was modeled on the British military system.

“We have a big problem now, former Military officers who are retired but have expertise, people working on Pakistan’s nuclear program how to ensure top security clearence.”

You have had the big problem all along. We have been saying this all the while only to be denied by you and Pak military supporters like you. Now the reality is dawning on you.

“One thing I would urge you is stop looking at Pakistan Army high command as part of the problem.”

It is not part of the problem. It is the problem. Your military was responsible for the genocide in East Pakistan and the subsequent dismemberment of Pakistan into two Islamic nations. I am sure your history has been rewritten to absolve your military of all its atrocities. Your military is responsible for encouraging radicalization of your country. It is responsible for using terrorism as a means to achieve short-sighted objectives. Your military created the Taliban which is now being hounded out by the US and its allies. Your military is responsible for training militants and encouraging Jihad that was directed at others. Your military is responsible for not letting democratic institutions survive. Your military has become blood thirsty and wants a war at all times to divert attention away from the public. It has sustained an image of India being the enemy and has misled the Pakistani public. It has bankrupted your country.

Kindly do not paint a rosy picture about them. You have no idea what kind of damage your military has done to your country and the entire region. If you guys do not realize that the your military is the villain, your country definitely is doomed to fail. All this macho chest thumping of Pakistan always has survived against the odds belief will not work. That attitude has brought you to the very brink.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

@ “You must understand, US suffered from 9-11 only once, while in Pakistan we have 9-11s quite a few times”
Posted by Umairpk

The US never bred, nurtured or supported any terror outfits on it’s soil wheras it has been quite conclusively established that your army did that as it’s foreign policy for decades. So, your comparison of 9/11 with what’s going on in Pakistan is quite flawed. I hope the worst is over but don’t be so sure as yet. There are plenty of reports coming out here that the Taliban is re-grouping & planning an offensive in Swat as well as other Pakistani cities.

@”I do not accept anything exists such as Islamic terrorism. Terrorist has no religion, they use terror to meet their objectives”

Unfortunately, that’s not the way the non-muslim world sees it. When a particular religion is misinterpreted & becomes the basis of violence & terrorism, these activties become identifiable by the religion itself. I’ve never heard of hate sermons being preached in Churches, Synagouges or Gurudwaras but unfortunately, it’s widely known to happen in Mosques. I agree that one can’t implicate all muslims in the world for the sins of a few but frankly the majority of peace loving muslims aren’t doing nearly enough to weed out the minority which is ruining the reputation of your good religion.

@”What is happening in Afghanistan now and the situation in Pakistan is due to what happened in Afghanistan since October 2001 invasion by US”

It also has a lot to do with the fact that after 9/11 your army was forced (or rather threatened) to fight all the terror outfits, which it was breeding & nurturing till that time as it’s “strategic depth” policy. The way most non-Pakistanis see it, it’s a classic case of “one’s chicken’s coming home to roost”.

@”In 1971 India dismembered Pakistan’s eastern wing and the world stood watching did nothing”

I think, we’ve been over this a zillion times but lemme say it again, Any country in the world would’ve done exactly what India did at that time. The creation of Bangladesh was inevitable & all India did was just speed it up while preventing a few more 100,000s bengalis from being killed by the PA & avoiding the crisis of a massive influx of millions of refugees into west bengal. You blame India for Bangladesh but how about crediting it for releasing 90,000 of your soldiers, when it could’ve easily held them as POWs or handed them over to be butchered by the Mukta Bahini army. Again, you guys need to stop looking in the rear view mirror at 1971 & start looking ahead at what’s happening in 2010. In 2010, the enemy that is out to obilerate you from the face of this earth are the terrorists on your own soil & not India.

@”Your explanation of collateral damage and justification of drone attacks is where the problem lies”

As I said earlier, there’s just a lot of misinformation out there in Pakistan about the drones. By the logic that the collateral damage by the drones is making people angry at america & radicalizing them, how come there’s no anger against the PA, whose operations have created a lot more collateral damage than the drones? And what’s the alternative? If anyone talks to you about the drones, remind tham about the number of terrorists that they have killed & the mayhem those guys would’ve created, if alive. You guys don’t realize this but killing guys like Baitullah Mehsud has saved many Pakistani lives, soldiers as well as civilians. Please don’t delude yourself cuz people who wanna get radicalized & hate, will somehow find the reasons to do so. If it’s not the drones, it’ll be Palestine, if not that then Kashmir, if not that then Iraq. There’ll always be something.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

If Pak military is so mighty and brave as claimed by some Pak posters here, why are they shivering in their pants when asked to go into North Waziristan and give a hug to their “brothers”? With all the mighty nukes and missiles at their disposal, they are quietly allowing the Americans to operate the drones from their own air bases and whine about the drones killing innocent people. If the military is so valiant, how come they are allowing Hillary to issue orders to them? These guys are good at talk and chest thumping. When it comes to facing an enemy bravely, even the Taliban is better than them. Pak military is the largest “Non-state actor” in that country. It is only good at being slimy and slippery and dodging bullets.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

By the comments I read I find there are some sensible knowledgeable persons sharing there view over here from both India and Pakistan.
Well I am not as well read as few of you but from common sense but I think the root cause of the problems in ‘Muslim dominated region’ of the world is use of religion for personal gains by there leaders starting from prophet Mohamed (utmost respect) to Timur, Babar, Aurangzeb and every Muslim leader you can think of (some of them maybe actually believed they are protector of religion). Well to start with I don’t understand all this fascination with religion which should be a personal belief. Of all the creatures in this world I have never see any lion tiger etc fight over religion. What makes us so much different? An over developed brain ? There are myriad examples in history books when armies have been united by using religion and I guess this has been done so many times that somehow it has got imbibed into DNA of muslim society. Religion like regionalism, caste etc unites people and provides a rallying point which helps in allying fear and provides a sense of strength. Now on the issue of Kashmir simply saying that it is a muslim dominated state hence should be separated does not hold water. We all know a bit of history, and we know that people in south east asia from afganistan to major regions of north india have similar origins we ever have the same genetic disease (high rate of heart condition), because some chose to embrace isam which I respect does not automatically gives them the right to seprate country, we too in India need our sense of security which in this case is unity. If the governance of state fails and kasmiris think that they can govern better that might still make some sense. Throughout ages use of religion to project superiority, and carve out new boundaries has been done and peace will only prevail when religion becomes personal.
As for the discussion as to who did what(india vs Pakistan) trust me your grand children will be having the same discussion that is provided we don’t nuke each other by that time if the root cause is not addressed. (I think turkey is doing a good job by separating state and religion)

Posted by gaprak | Report as abusive

I dont know why the hell u pakis dont realize that ur rulers have escaped their responsibilities, of giving u growth and good life, by telling u lies about India and breeding hatred for India in ur minds for years. I dont know y u ppl dont c that india has never attacked pakistan pre-emptively and the amount of progress in india. Peace is what will bring prosperity to Pakistan. But u fool idiots whenever someone tells u a lie about india u ppl just leave everything and start supporting organisations like ISI and even join ppl like Let, JUM, etc. Y the hell u pakis dont question ur rulers that y they gave u Let, JUM, etc etc etc. and not peace, progress and quality of life. All these years u have heard lies about RAW and indian intelligence. But to tell u truth is that no indian learns about RAW until he is 21 something. If indian intelligence had been so good then we wud have been able to avoid Kargil and Mumbai. If RAW has really even thought of doing some operation in Pakistan then I am PROUD of RAW because in reality RAW is one stupid useless pathetic organisation in India. All ur leaders do is that breed hatred in ur minds for accomplishing their own selfish motives of ruling and making u ppl their slaves. All they tell u is that India is brutal on Kashmiris and all but u go to Kashmir in India and talk to an average Kashmiri and he will tell u y he is PROUD to be an Indian and y he will commit suicide the day he becomes a Pakistani. Indians have worked hard to build peace and hence provides a good quality of life for its hard working citizens. I dont really understand y the hell u pakistanis fail to c the tricks of ur leaders and that too for past 60 years. I feel sorry for all common pakistanis but they are themselves to blame for this mess their country is in.

Posted by 007XXX | Report as abusive

Since the 1971 East Pakistan issue has popped up again, I would like Umair & all Pakistanis to check out this link below & tell us frankly, what do they think about the genocide in East Pakistan in 1971? Do you guys just dismiss it as false Indian propaganda, are too ashamed to talk about it or do you just think that you can ignore it & it will just go away? I would really like to know exatly, where do you guys stand on this. Anyways, do check this link as it has a lot of information from various sources & it’s not an Indian website but a Bangladeshi one.

http://www.genocidebangladesh.org/

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Mortal1: “I would really like to know exatly, where do you guys stand on this.”

Here is the answer: Silence

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

PART 1
Sorry if I sound patronizing to anyone here…our blogging, trying to reason with pakistanis, explaining, arguing and all will not work.

What I’m going to say is not out of hatred. I’m no “hindutvadi” either. You are all missing the point. The same arguments you are making now were all made by Nehru, Gandhi and other nationalist Indian leaders pre-partition….and post-1947.

Indians naively still think Pakistan will turn around. This has been an eternal FALSE HOPE. No …they WILL NOT. Some even ask them to separate religion from politics, this shows how out of touch with Pakistan ideology, most Indians are.

Did you know in the year 2010, when minorities have been exterminated to the fringe of fringe in Pakistan, they have JUST passed an 18th amendment to the constitution stipulating only a muslim can become their prime minister???!!

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive

PART 2
Pakistani supremacist ideology is religious identity based aggression with the primary aim of achieving (perceived) greater power over “Hindu” India and lord over as the glorious leader of Islamic Ummah. This was the primary fantasy of pakistani ideology pre-1947.

The problem is they fancied themselves to wear the emperor’s clothes, but haven’t produced a nation to sustain this supremacist ideology. In 2010, alms from the americans are the primary source of income.

Confrontation through militarism, terrorism will not cease by pleading with them. No matter how much we try to reason with them, they WILL NOT CHANGE course.
Self-described “liberals” in Pakistan will reject this argument stating, we are saying this out of “hatred”.

The truth is all pak liberals are subscribers to such ideology. They smugly watched the Bengali genocide, smugly supported pak army’s terrorism in India and so on. Now when they are suffering the blow back, they are wringing their hands.

Pakistan ideology will have to collapse internally. This is not wishful thinking, this is not from hatred. Whether it is good or bad to any one is also irrelevant. What matters is the fact …THIS IS INEVITABLE..This is the only outcome possible out of this non-sustainable situation.

P.S
Pakistani terrorism in India is on temporary hold because of their internal diarrhea, not out of change in heart. India has to maintain internal communal harmony, focus on economic development and at the same time watch out for potential pak mischief. We can do very little to influence Pakistan, they will bring themselves down.

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive

@ “Here is the answer: Silence” Posted by KPSingh01

Well, silence eaquates to admittance of guilt. I hope the feirce die-hard fans of the Pakistani army keep that it mind, the next time they are out to toot it’s horn & sing it’s praises.

On a different note, seems like the ISI is alive, kicking & still playing it’s dirty li’l games.

‘Afghan Spy Agency Accuses Pakistan Agency in Suicide Bombing’ – NYT

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/25/world/ asia/25afghan.html?scp=1&sq=afghan%20spy %20agency%20accuses%20pakistan&st=cse

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Mortal1: “On a different note, seems like the ISI is alive, kicking & still playing it’s dirty li’l games.”

ISI has never done anything other than play dirty games. What I see is that Pakistanis do not mind getting hurt by the internal chaos, but they want India to go down at all costs. India obsession has completely warped the minds of most Pakistanis. To rub salt into that wound, India is progressing, its global business is expanding, and the US is not putting it in a bind like it did during the cold war days. Many Pakistanis do not mind losing both their eyes, but they want India to lose at least one. This attitude is only going to burn them more. When the US pushes into Kandahar, it will be interesting to see what Pak military will do in North Waziristan. They are desperately trying to push Jihadi elements into Kashmir. There are daily reports on border firing between Indian and Pakistani troops near the LoC. If the Jihadis can somehow be pushed in and unleashed to create havoc at all costs in Kashmir, India will react. And Pak military will try to use it to its advantage in North Waziristan. This summer is going to be quite hot in that region. It is all a matter of timing. If ISI and Pak military time their objectives right, they might slip out of the grip yet again. With the world markets falling, Americans and their allies will be pressed hard to find a quick solution and exit from Afghanistan. And Pak military is watching these developments and will make some “strategic” moves.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

@Umair,

Umair, I do agree with you, not all muslims should be made to pay the price or take the blame for the actions of a few extremists muslims, who practice deobandism, wahhabism and salafism, a very backwards way of looking at the world. I assume you do stand against those two political factions, since they are the root of Al-Qaeda and the Taliban.

You should further clarify your statement though, in the wake of the Facebook issue, I see some truly troubling standards and developments in Pakistan.

First of all, nobody should ever blasphemize anybody’s religion, that is just wrong, I think Facebook should just backoff and get on with business rather than stirring this issue.

Next, I am troubled with the double standard here, you Pakistani’s are burning shops and destroying property when something like Facebook makes a soft attack on your sensibilities.

On the other hand, I never see such mass opposition against extremists and terrorists that operate in your country, that kill Pakistani’s daily. Secondly, you Pakistani’s are always quick to blasphemize Hinduism, Judaism and at times Christianity, yet we do not smash shops or call for death to anybody or any country.

Again, let me be clear, I don’t have to agree with how one worships, but I do have to respect it.

With regards to 1971, yes India dismembered Pakistan, right after it Genocided 3million humans in a systematic organized mass slaughter, with Hindus being the main targets and nobody stepped in to save Bangladeshi muslims and Hindus from Pakistani Punjabi Army mass murder, either, so please complete your statement regarding dismemberment. Not to mention that hindus in Pakistan plummeted from 15% to 1.5% today, Hindus are a dying breed and an endangered species in Pakistan. Even 50-90000 Hindu Kashmiri Pundits have been killed.

Again, your silence on the issue confirms personal guilt and shame that you know that you have on this issue, but stay silent on it like most of your country men.

The double standards with regards to the Bengali genocide by never mentioning it, while you talk of dismemberment is quit deeply troubling and disturbing. The darkness and cruelty inflicted on Bengalis will never be washed away. India had to deal with the millions of refugess fleeing for their lives. The only way to stop this madness was to stop your army, they were on a killing rampage, eliminating poor, unarmed innocent civilians, to suit their geopolitical agenda of re-Islamicization of India, that is a dead issue. India came to the rescue, so Jai Ho to India for saving millions of lives while returning 90,000 POW’s unharmed, after all they are Indians, why would we harm them?

As long as Pakistan is not inflicting genocides or plotting overthrow of India through nefarious means, Pakistan does not need to worry about the Indian Army, it is under control of the secular democratic civilian government. Our Indian Army cannot unilaterally attack anybody, unless they have proper authority, so your Pak Army’s doctrine of protection against Indian Army is out to lunch. The Indian Army is there to protect Indians against the Kashmir low level war and Jihadi factories setup to cause trouble in India from the 80′s.

So you see, all trouble originates from pakistan, not India.

In a way, I admire Pakistani’s for being so quick and unified, with regards to this facebook blasphemy issue. On the otherhand, the world wants to see Pakistani’s feel as passionate to denounce Extremist Islamic groups within Pakistan, that have killed Pakistani’s and threaten other countries, but Pakistani’s have failed to be impassioned against this sort of extremist behavior and in some circles complicity condone it.

This is what the world is waiting for from Pakistan, an awakening and reconciliation with its past to mend ties with the U.S. India and its other neighbours.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

Mortal, KP Singh, G-W:

First Pakistan should realise that Pakistanis donot represent muslims , secondly muslims in different part of the the world are capable of defending themselves, nobody has asked Pakistan for assistance . Thirdly, Pakistanis donot hold any brief from world’s muslims to champion their causes .

Poverty, illiteracy, lack of development are biggest enemies of muslims, incidentally muslims live in the world’s most poorest countries ranging from Bangaldesh, Pakistan, Somalia, Sudan to name the few , if Pakistanis are so concerned about muslims, why they have deprived the people of Pakistan of the fruits economic development for such a long time.

Posted by manishindia | Report as abusive

Here is an interesting article in NY times about conspiracy theories and lies being spread in Pakistan. No wonder every poster from Pakistan seems to parrot the same thing:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/26/world/ asia/26pstan.html?hp

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

@KP Singh

This article is quite reflective of the delusional mindset of most Pakistanis that one comes across. If (supposedly) educated people like lawyers are indulging is such hallucinogenic tendencies, one can only imagine what the thinking of an average uneducated Pakistani must be like. I wonder when, if at all, will the common sense start kicking in!

This excerpt sums it all: “Liberals on Pakistan’s beleaguered left see the xenophobic patriotism and conspiracy theories as a defense mechanism that deflects all responsibility for society’s problems and protects against a reality that is too painful to face.”

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Pakistani’s keep hoping for a free ride with regards to the genocide issue.

Just to define genocide, here is wiki’s definition

Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group.[1]
While a precise definition varies among genocide scholars, a legal definition is found in the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG). Article 2 of this convention defines genocide as “any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.”[2]

–>Is it any wonder that Pakisatani’s are silent on the issue, according to the UN definition, it suggests that Pakistan is legally liable just such an act on Bangladesh, with Hindus and Educated Bengali Muslims being the targets.

Pakistani’s need to understand that we have kept track of the Kashmiri pundit Genocides and the Hindu Genocide in Pakistan. Why are Indians always made out by you Pakistani’s to be the bad guys here.

All you Pakistani’s ever shown Indians and Hindus is pure evil cruelty and blame the victim game.

Without a moral center of any kind, Pakistan will not survive without handouts from its Yankee masters.

I am sorry, but until Pak citizens start to own up to the past misdeeds of their country, no body will have respect for Pakistan as a country, despite their nukes and outdated airforce. Even the Turks kind of know that they have to come to terms with the Armenian genocide.

Once you Pakistani’s start to do that, your futures will change for the better, the guilt and shame will be relieved, a large weight will be lifted and you can fight the political religious venomous parasites that are corrupting your children and tearing your country apart.

I sometimes feel that Pakistan would not exist as a country even if it did not polarize so completely its people against India and have nukes.

Until people there wakeup, choosing to look the other way and ignoring the facts and even compartmentalizing and detaching onself from reality, while the truth stares at you in the face, these are the very actions that are facilitating the carnage, perversion of the Pakistani youth and diaspora youth to extremism.

Citizens of democracies want action against your inaction, we have a right for that, in principle.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

G-W,

It’s quite clear that denial & finger pointing has naturally become a second nature of a vast mojority of Pakistanis. It is indeed part of a self deviced defense mechanism that deflects all responsibility for their nation’s problems & ills and protects them against some painfully harsh realities, which aren’t easy to accept. For guys like Umair, who have been spoon fed with xenophobic nationalism & undying loyalty for the Pakistani army, it’s almost impossible to accept that the men they’ve considered as demigods & heros all their lives, might have committed such inhuman, cowardly & horrendous acts like genocides & murders of civilians. So, whenever they are confronted with the misdeeds & sins of their pious army, it’s easier for them to just dismiss it as propaganda, point fingers at others or just ignore the topic, all together. It’s a sickness which most Pakistanis suffer from & unfortunately they don’t seem to be very interested in getting cured. Anyways, all folks like us can do is, just hope that they get well soon.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Since 1971 is back on the table, I will ask Umair and other Pakistanis to express how they feel this intervention in India was any different than say US intervention in Serbia to stop the slaughter of Kosovar Muslims?

Are Pakistanis going to suggest that the international community should not have intervened in the face of a genocidal Serbian regime, even though the outcome would be a divided Serbia?

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

@kpsingh01

I get that you have giant anti-US, anti-western chip on your shoulder, but can you try and use a finer brush at least once in a blue moon?

Canada’s policy in 1971 was vastly different. Trudeau was deeply concerned about the genocide in East Pakistan and spurred on by various community and church groups, the government launched significant efforts to help Bangladeshis. Canada was one of the first countries to recognize the independence of Bangladesh and one of its foremost aid donors in those early days.

Heck, even opinion in the US was not uniform. Yes, the Nixon administration was too focused on Cold War politics. However, that view was not uniform in the US or even across the administration. One of the best historical records we have today is from a US diplomat (the Blood telegram) and it clearly paints a picture of a genocide well under way. Opposition to the Nixon Administration from Congress, over support for Pakistan, while a genocide was under way, was also strong. The idea that there was clear cut support for Pakistan’s genocidal actions in Bangladesh is ludicrous.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

I’ll agree with the author that the US can’t do much at present. They can’t do much as long as their interests are tied to Pakistan. The mistake that we (NATO/US) made is assuming that the Pakistanis were sincere and trusting them with our rear areas and supply lines. Unfortunately, now we have no choice and have play the hand we were dealt.

Anyway, the mission will end sometime; all military missions come to an end at some point. And that’s when the fun will begin. At that point, the US will have far more strategic freedom with Pakistan than it does today. And it will exercise it. If only because its own security is at stake.

And what then? Either Pakistan will slowly change for the better. Democracy will firmly take root. Radicalization will gradually reverse course. Etc. Or Pakistan will become the next North Korea.

Some on here think it’s the next Somalia. That’s possible. I used to think so. Now I think it’ll be more like North Korea. Severely isolated. Population brainwashed by propaganda. Led by a tight despotic, militaristic regime. Routinely resorting to nuclear blackmail and aggression to get resources that ensure regime survival. And routinely sacrificing its people’s quality of life to sustain ultra-high military expenditures, far out of proportion of any reasonable threat. It might ended with a slight Islamist twist. So maybe they’ll get a Taliban-esque regime in charge and Pakistanis will be smuggling Bollywood DVDs just like North Koreans sneak in South Korean DVDs today. Anyway, that’s what Pakistan has in store in a few years.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

If Pakistan turns into North Korea, then it will be supported and sustained by China. With the Western economic clout on the decline, and China’s ascendancy, the US may not be able to influence Pakistan much in the future. Pak history will be rewritten as being betrayed by the US and being used by the US to achieve anti-Islamic goals. There will be copious words of gratitude for China stepping in by the grace of Allah and saving Pakistan from the machination of the US, Israel and Hindus. I am saying this because, I come from this region. I know how things are twisted here. It would be naive to assume that the US and its Western allies will be able to force Pakistan to do anything in the future. They could not do it while being in the vicinity. And Pakistani military establishment will exploit the sentiments to the hilt.

If the US leaves the region soon, Pak military will unleash a terrible proxy campaign inside India. It is as simple as that. India will be forced to retreat. With China looming around, Pak military will gather up all the Islamic radicals around and go all out. If their economy goes down because of that, then they have a face saving way out by blaming the Indian provocation towards war. We know these people very well and what they are capable of.

Of course, the Western countries will further be weakened by bolder attempts and attacks by Jihadist radicals and for all you know, people might just learn to live with it. Unless the US forces the Pak military to go into North Waziristan and get blown by the elements there, there is no way Pakistan will weaken. It is already on the brink and there is nothing much left to lose. So they might bank on that belief and start bringing others down instead. So long as China stands on their side, none of the weakened Western powers will be able to do anything other than protesting from outside.

So it is very important to take a bold move against the Pak military now. Or else, Pakistan will be the country that brought the world down.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

@Wow! good. Tell you what bro, Pakistan is not what it was in 1971, helpless against Indian support of Mukti Bahni insurgent. and ISI is pretty capable of beating the sh*t out of whatever intel assets India is trying to muster in Baluchistan. And one more thing, India must rather worry more about the Maoist insurgency, ‘Karachi project’ and many ISI sleeper cells in India, including SIMI, Indian Mujahideen etc. India will be up in flames as well if something happens in Baluchistan.”

—Umairpk

Wake up Umair:
I can sugar coat for you if u want but your country’s strategies have been suicidal. if you do not know then you have been sleeping since last 5yrs. What India could do in 1971, can do even better now. Do not try your luck. But then, you have advantage since you have nothing to lose.

Now think how did u get to this point of nothing to lose. Hmmm…. no brainer! May be I am wasting my time over you but this post-1971 generation which you represent has not seen 1971 war, but still gets nightmares of 1971.

Empty slogans will not do a thing here. Scare Westerners with that. You get a buffet of people in India including real or pretend super macho like you. So no point losing your breath. As a friend I suggest you conserve your energy.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive

@kEiThZ,

Thanks for clarifying the 1971 political situation regarding the west.

@Singh, you can’t keep blaming the western empire builders of the cold war for the choices that are being made today. India was on the wrong side of the cold war, siding with the Soviets, while claiming neutrality, it won it no friends with the west in the past, but today is a different reality. The Gandhi’s had turned India into a failing country in those days, thank God reform has come to India, in a big way and that really needs to be appreciated for what it is, what it stands for and India’s image today. India cannot just be slapped around like some third world throwback nation, those days are gone. Indians are not victims any more, we are global grade players, so please learn to look forward and appreciate that.

When U.S. leaves Pakistan, you can be they did not spend Billions just to walk away. The U.S. want to be the brokers of energy highways into India and Pakistan is is just a migraine getting in the way. India is the customer here, the consumer of energy and all things western and Pakistan is the consumer of free money and producer of terrorism.

You can expect a much more deepened and widened security meshing with the U.S. and western allies, once the U.S. leaves Afghanistan and once the U.S. and Pakistan are not allies, the U.S. will take a much more different stance towards Pakistan, because they can. All it will take is another terrorist mishap on U.S. soil, you can bet the Americans will consider asking India for forward military bases, facing Pakistan and Kashmir will be fixed at that point as well. The same forward bases will be widened from Afghanistan, facing Pakistan and Pakistan will be squeezed and encircled.

China’s main interest is not Pakistan, but the U.S. and will comply to keep its number one customer happy, if it keeps wanting progress. The U.S. needs to make money and India is a huge consumer of everything, especially energy.

The large energy interests and the west are eager to serve India and Pakistan is a huge migraine and huge waste of money.

Pakistani’s might find themselves cornered one day, staring at the barrel of huge western gun pointed at them, if choose to be a hindrance to the purveyors of energy.

The energy cartels will one day carve-up and disintegrate Pakistan, if Pakistan keeps being a migraine.

India has provided huge amounts of IT and other brainpower to the west for almost 40 years, not to mention a huge buyer of expensive military equipment and all sorts of consumer goods and it took the west that long to figure out that India does not need to be contained, nor antagonized, but is in fact a very mutual, agreeable and good partner to get along with on almost every level. Because India is such a good business partner and compatible on so many levels with the west, especially the Indian’s ability to mesh with other cultures and assimilate well, India will continue to strengthen its unbreakable bond with the west.

Pakistan on the other hand, has been just embarassingly hanging in there, by the skin of its teeth.

If the west chooses to, hypothetically speaking, denuclearizing Pakistan, at the right point, maybe as simple as buying off or bribing the already corrupt people in charge, after all, you can bet they all have escape plans and VISA ready, once things collapse, they will be happy to make some money on the way out.

I wonder if Umair will stick around in a disintegrating Pakistan to shine up empty F-16′s or leave to drive cab in NYC?

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

Umairpk said:

> So I explained to him the concept of Jihad (only goverment of the day can declare Jihad against non-muslims)

I’m surprised no one has challenged Umair on this.

No Umair, the very concept of a war against non-Muslims is a pernicious one and this is at the heart of what is wrong with the Muslim world. Stop seeing the world in terms of “us and them”. It’s a prickly siege mentality that doesn’t let you build bridges and lasting peace. Muslims must learn to live in this world along with other people according to *international law* and not according to the Koran’s directions, because there are other people in this world who have the same rights as you do.

For a start, Muslims need to accept that they share this world with other people who do not share their faith. Remember that non-Muslims are always willing to respect Muslims as equals, but unfortunately Muslims do not accept non-Muslims as their equal because they cannot recognise the legitimacy of other faiths. (You do not have to *believe* in another faith in order to accord it the same respect and legitimacy.) The “other faiths are wrong” mentality seems to be hardwired into the thinking of Muslims. This is not a healthy basis for a relationship based on mutual respect.

Your attitude towards Jihad is symptomatic of what is wrong with your entire community, and this attitude will be your undoing. Jihad (if interpreted as a physical struggle against other human beings and not as a struggle against vices within one’s own mind) is nothing less than a criminal concept, and it is sad to learn from your post that Westernised Muslims are willing to entertain it. Respect has to be mutual, and Jihad rejects the concept of mutual respect.

The bottomline is, if the government of the day in a Muslim country declares Jihad against non-Muslims, it becomes a state sponsor of terror under international law and will justify another “coalition of the willing” to move in and dismantle it. Don’t blame other people at that stage. Recognise that you brought it on yourselves with your intolerant attitude.

The next time you talk to your manager, I would challenge you as two intellectually honest persons to discuss this aspect as well. Does the root of the problem lie in the Muslim reluctance to accord the same legitimacy to other belief systems? Maybe others are forced to look at the Muslim world in terms of “us and them” because of the Muslim attitude. After all, no one looks at the Buddhists that way…

Hoping for a positive response,

Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

We did not object to Umair becoz he explained what Jihad is and who can declare it. But whether it is gud or bad is entirely another thing. Koran says Jihad is fight against evil (NOT non-muslim).

And so it narrows down to the debate that what is evil?? Is America evil or is Israel evil or is Iran evil or is Pakistan evil or is China evil or is India evil????????

It is common human tendency to label every other person, whose views and actions are not aligned to oneself, as evil. Muslims have done that very very successfully using religion as the binding force but unfortunately this very force is responsible for collapse of their world these days.

So problem is that religion is a very ambiguous set of rules which can be interpreted in thousands of ways and hence the human society should not be based on religions (be it any religion: Christianity, Islam, Hindu, Judaism, etc) but instead on human values which can be interpreted in correct ways only.

So we need Jihad against poverty, illiteracy, disease, hunger, exploding population, global warming, etc, etc, etc, etc….the evils eating away human society in modern times.

Posted by 007XXX | Report as abusive

Eye Opener for every single Pakistani die hard fan of Pakistani Army:

Every single day of the year Pakistan receives an oil ship from US at its Karachi Port (One and Only port pakistan has). If on any given day the oil ship doesnt docks at Karachi port then the complete system of pakistan would come to a stand still. What the heckk will ur F16s, tank, etc, etc will do without oil???? Ur PA will have its back against wall. And India on the other hand with efficient oil companies like ONGC, Reliance, etc have at all times enuf reserve to keep the military operations going on for a week straight in emergency conditions.

And since u pakis still remember 1971 so u must be very well aware of what Indian Navy is capable of. Karachi Port can be blown up in flames in matter of hours and then it will interesting to c what ur COWARD PA and ISI will do.

So for people like Umair its a wake up call…Hello…Ur country is walking on a thin tight rope called TERRORISM…and India can crush ur PA under its boots at its will…but we are not PA and we are not Pakistan…Had India really wanted to crush pakistan then it would have done so long ago…but we never did so…even then u fools belive in lies of ur PA and ISI that India is evil and out to crush u…Ur ISI has no financial power to fight with India whereas India has all the power in world to CRUSH Pakistan but still the Pakistan exists and that shud be proof enuf that India want a stable democratic pakistan…As Our First Prime Minister Late Pdt. Nehru said, “They are our brothers”…we feel sad and sorry for our brothers for being in such a mess…and thats y take it as an advice and not offence…and its the youth of your country…people like Umairpk has to take responsibility of ur nation…Rise to occasion…Desperate times need desperate measures…

Posted by 007XXX | Report as abusive

Mr Moderator.
I thought you do not publish offensive comments. I should have thought 007 comments should fall into this category. Were you having a break. This foul and threatning barrage on another commentator is uncalled for.
Rex Minor and not Pakistan

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@Ganesh Prasad,
Umirpk is a fool, but you are a bigger fool. Infact you people are the two sides of the same coin. Umirpk is describing what Jehad is and you started giving lectures to the Muslim world. Try to sort out your vies with each other without involving the third party least of all the muslim world. Both of you know that Islam means peace and not Jehad or war or hatred towards people of different faith. This bigotry and zenofobia we have witnessed in Europe and than in the Indian subcontinent.
Perhaps it is time that we move on ….

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@pakistan,

Dear Friend, I am not threatening anyone here…read my comment till end…..i m just stating the reality that pakistan has to face today…….it is difficult to c mirror but mirror dont lie but yes truth is a bitter pill to swallow in pakistan these days…but people like Umairpk (even if in YOUR opinion he is fool…c ur own comment above) need to be made aware of the truth so that u can c thru lies of ur leaders and c the real India…..and U did not find Umairpk’s comments offensive when he says that ISI can beat the s*** out of India…u shud be reading all the comments so far in this blog and then tell which all to block…

All I was stating that those who have powers can punish….but despite being severely stung several thousand times by Pakistan (an open truth) India has never really punished its brothers even after having all the power in world to punish Pakistan (even got labeled as soft state for showing brotherhood)….but u guys seem to be never understanding that…u dont want ur progress instead u want Indians’ downfall at all cost even if that results in ur country being pushed to limits by US….being pushed and insulted by US is acceptable to ur leaders but being friends with India is not acceptable to ur military….even then the common in Pakistan does not realize the truth…even now u cant differentiate good from bad…even now u cant c thru lies of ur government and ISI….then anyone wud feel sorry…we in India here want a stable, democratic and FRIENDLY pakistan…and thats why i said that its the desperate times in pakistan and each pakistani needs to take desperate measures….so bottom line is that each and every common man in Pakistan has to DO MORE…only then Pakistan can make sense of do more mantra!!!

So read my comment till end and try to figure out with a cool head that am i really threatening someone or am i stating the truth and hence sympathising with Pakistan….But if u still feel my comments are uncalled for then I humbly apologise to all those who feel i used foul language….

Posted by 007XXX | Report as abusive

@007
First of all I am not Pakistan, but this blog keeps welcoming me as Pakistan. I have no problem.
In my opinion you guys need to review your words before posting it. You are perfectly right in giving your opinion and even emotions if you feel like it. Both India and Pakistan in the view of many are not nations, but two separate countries left by the Brits as they found it. You have so many ethnic mix with different languages, traditions, cultures and religions. Both countries have not come to terms within and with each other. I watch this at international level and now in several blogs. You get very personal, even threaten and try to involve people who do not live in your land. India has the ability to become a great Nation but your leaders do not have the vision to forget the colonial times and take a responsible place in the league of great Nations with your ancient history and civilisation. Do’nt you see that the western world headed by the USA is loosing its standing in the world, not only economicaly but in morals and culture.

I am not a chinese either, but admire their policy on non involvement in domestic affairs of other countries. Why ca’nt India and Pakistan do the same. I tell you why because you are the prisoner of your past. Perhaps one day you weill rid yourself of the babilonian prison butv this is another story. I hope that in the meantime Mr Umair will stop his threats and not forget the old Indian saying ” barking dogs seldom bite”.Have a nice day.

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@007

PS Forgot to mention my name ” Rex Minor”.

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@ Rex Minor

I don’t really care about your nationaity, religion or race (or anybody else’s for that matter) but with all due respect, your comments generally carry a Pakistan bias.

@ “Both India and Pakistan in the view of many are not nations, but two separate countries left by the Brits as they found it. You have so many ethnic mix with different languages, traditions, cultures and religions”

So, what exactly is the definition of a nation in your view? A country with a single ethnicity, religion, culture & spoken language? So, by your logic, I guess the US isn’t a nation either!

@ “Both countries have not come to terms within and with each other.”

I beg to strongly differ with that statement from an Indian perspective. Maybe a certain segment of Indians back in the 50s & 60s might have had some difficulty coming to terms with Pakistan but a vast majority of Indians of this generation, not only have no problems with Pakistan’s existence, they are actually happy about the fact that Pakistan exists as a seperate state. This generation of Indians is pre-occupied with getting educated & becoming a productive constituent of India’s rapidly growing economy. Their only concern with Pakistan, is limited to the terrorist activities of that nation directed towards them. They would like to have a freindly neighbour in Pakistan but by & large they don’t really care whether it exists or not or the condition of it’s existence, as long as it leaves India & Indians alone.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

@Mortal i
The oxford dictionary states the definition of a Nation being a community of people of mainly common descent, language, history, OR political institutions and usually sharing one territory and government -nation-wide. I now leave it you if India or Pakistan fulfills this definition and do not object to being called a biased.
By calling simply people who do not fit into this domain as terrorists or insurgents is not enough for a Nation. The colonialists left the terrirtory because they could not live with the so called terrorists indefinitely. After the lapse of sixty odd years how many years you reckon India needs more to sort out the mess or quit the territory where people do not accept your economic view of the affairs. Both Indian and Pakistan militaries have not been nationalised. The massacre of sikh population in Punjab o’k by the sikh military and police and now the suppression of muslims in Kashmir and the under rated people of low caste classified poors is not a secret for the internet world,it was not different in the colonial times, Nor is the secret of continued chain of military dictatorship in your neighbouring Pakistan,merely to suppress the so called citizens who happen to live in the terrotories vacated by the British colonialists in 40′s.
I am sorry if you have a different view and belive like the new super colonialist USA who have a similar simpluistic view and are of the opibnion that the economics could eventually resolve the insurgents problems.
I am sorry this innocent attitude did work with the American Indians but not with those who are strong enough to resist and are even prepared to use their boots.

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@ortali
Sorry I forgot to state my name ” Rex Minor”. I guess the moderator also belives that I am biased for Pakistan, therefore automatically prints’Pakistan’.

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@Mortal i
The oxford dictionary states the definition of a Nation being a community of people of mainly common descent, language, history, OR political institutions and usually sharing one territory and government -nation-wide. I now leave it you if India or Pakistan fulfills this definition and do not object to being called a biased.
By calling simply people who do not fit into this domain as terrorists or insurgents is not enough for a Nation. The colonialists left the terrirtory because they could not live with the so called terrorists indefinitely. After the lapse of sixty odd years how many years you reckon India needs more to sort out the mess or quit the territory where people do not accept your economic view of the affairs. Both Indian and Pakistan militaries have not been nationalised. The massacre of sikh population in Punjab o’k by the sikh military and police and now the suppression of muslims in Kashmir and the under rated people of low caste classified poors is not a secret for the internet world,it was not different in the colonial times, Nor is the secret of continued chain of military dictatorship in your neighbouring Pakistan,merely to suppress the so called citizens who happen to live in the terrotories vacated by the British colonialists in 40′s.
I am sorry if you have a different view and belive like the new super colonialist USA who have a similar simpluistic view and are of the opibnion that the economics could eventually resolve the insurgents problems.
I am sorry this innocent attitude did work with the American Indians but not with those who are strong enough to resist and are even prepared to use their boots. Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@RexMinor
“In my opinion you guys need to review your words before posting it”

We do have review our words and thats y moderator has published them. Now if you say that only ur opinion matters and everyone else is fool then thats a problem with ur attitude. By the way ur calling Umairpk and Ganesh a fool was also uncalled for.

@”You have so many ethnic mix with different languages, traditions, cultures and religions”

Yes and we are proud of it.

@”You get very personal”

Because we consider Pakistanis as our brothers and we feel sad to c the condition our brothers are in. I will not comment about 60′s or 70′s but today’s generation in India simply want a stable, democratic and FRIENDLY pakistan because ultimately peace will lead to mutual progress and thats y we need to convey this message to every pakistani on every forum in every possible way.

@”try to involve people who do not live in your land.”

If moderator shows your name as “pakistan” then how would i assume that u r not a pakistani. Please use some common sense.

@”I am not a chinese either, but admire their policy on non involvement in domestic affairs of other countries”

So do you mean when India liberated bangladesh on witnessing the genocide by PA then at that time India was wrong and China was right in remaining silent??

@”suppression of muslims in Kashmir”

Have you visited kashmir (on Indian side) physically yourself?? If not then please do not make false assumptions. If yes then i would say u make a comment or two by comparing Tibet and Kashmir since u admire chinese.

@”After the lapse of sixty odd years how many years you reckon India needs more to sort out the mess or quit the territory where people do not accept your economic view of the affairs”

USA won its independence in 1776, Lincoln won civil war in 1865 and Martin Luther King Jr. fought for African American Civil rights till 1968. Now u do the calculations and tell if 60 years is enuf for India or is USA not a nation?

@”The colonialists left the terrirtory because they could not live with the so called terrorists indefinitely”

Correction: The colonialists left the terrirtory because they could not EARN from the so called terrorists indefinitely. Get your facts right. If you are not an Indian or Pakistani then you have no idea of our pains and is improper for you to make comments without doing an in-depth research.

And the oxford dictionary that u refer is also created by the colonialists only and thats why both India and USA defy its definition of a Nation.

And I am not sure of past leadership but current indian politics and leadership are very capable of taking India into league of great nations. Every nation faces problems but the ones who find and implement good solutions that make most happy are the ones that shine.

Posted by 007XXX | Report as abusive

Umair,

I say this with a very heavey heart, but YOU and those young smart educated guys like you are the last hope for Pakistan.

You young guys need to take charge of Pakistan one day and define it outside of a religious context, outside of male PA Bravado and outside of hatred for India. It is time to look to the future to define a Pakistan for Pakistani’s, free of corrupt suicide training madrassas, free of corrupt army, free of corrupt politicians, free of outside meddling from Arab states, hoping to use your country as a spring board to try conquering non-muslim states.

All of these vises have left your country ravaged of potential and left most Pakistani’s unhappy of their futures.

It is time that the youth, like you take a modernist stance and rally against the Taliban, rally against extremist Islam and protest against corrupt Army and corrupt politicians, against let me reiterate, outside of a religious context. My personal hope is that one day an army of smart, bright, educated, Bilawal Bhutto types can steer Pakistan back into the modern age, as a global player in all things that contribute positively to the world.

I see a bleak future for Pakistan when I see educated youth like you, still hurling old politics of the Army, old opinions of Hamid Gul, old opinions of Israel and the politics of blame and shame.

It is time to end that and it is time for you to become your own man and re-define your country into what it should be.

Kashmir is not the problem, Israel, U.S., India, 1971, Soviets, all of these things are not the problem.

The problem is the way you people think. You must change the way you think and the way you perceive yourself and your neighbours.

Yes, India has its problems with poverty, overcrowding and corruption, but our educated youth never stop 24/7, unrelentlessly searching and trying to create excellence, in any field of education that they do, that is why India is going to become a superpower, economically speaking, because we are continuing to choose to strive for excellence, through our education and our jobs and our need to be competitive and better than ourselves everyday.

You need to understand that while your Pak Army manuals continue to demonize India as an enemy, you actually imploding your own futures, by destroying opportunities to further your own mental development.

It is my hope one day, that every terrorist training camp, every suicide extremist madrassa and every corrupt Army and Politician will be one day rid of in Pakistan and India and Pakistan will become the best of trade partners, maintain their uniqueness of cultures and compete and share on all levels, in a friendly, and cohesive manner, without China interfering and making us work against each other, hope that we will exhaust each other through enmity.

Pakistan has much to gain in every manner by abandoning extremist Islam and abandoning China and joining and making a pact with India, think about it Umair, it is time for revolution, time for a paradigm shift, do you have the courage and heart to contemplate such a thing?

Don’t let the mistakes of your forefathers and the politics of the past, drag your country and your futures to hell.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

Umair,

Let me add, further, if India is willing to spend Billions in Afghanistan, just imagine what India would be willing to do for Pakistan, if corrupt Pakistani’s players were made to step aside.

I don’t every see a situation where India would not be willing to give help to their Pakistani brothers, we are family, blood family, despite the many different religious books. Our DNA ancestry is the same.

If India keeps having to absorb low-level terrorism, how can India open its purse to help Pakistani’s rise above?

India would be the only one in this world to help Pakistan rise above, not the U.S., not China, not anybody. This is my vision, but the current situation makes this seem like a dream.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

@RexMinor

Some of your statements are so darn off the base that I don’t know where to start & where to end. I think that fundamentally our views are so far apart that any effort to convince of the other, would be an excercise in futility. So, instead of indulging in a prolonged time consuming cycle of claims, counter-claims & rebuttals, let’s just agree to disagree with each other & I’ll just leave it at that.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

@Mortal 1
I agree to disagree with your anylysis and respect your opinion!
@007
I have different views to those of yours, and let us agree to disagree.
By the way, unlike your interpretation, I do not know what was ‘civil’ about the battles between the Yankees and the southerners. The answers to some of the questions;
.I would have also liked to see Indian military intervention to save the temil population in the neighbourhood.
. No I have not visited Kasshmir or India for that matter, but I happen to know some of Kashmir leaders and have met many Kashmiris in the West. my anylysis is that they could’nt care less about India or Pakistan. The took the first opportunity to flee the territory, obtained passport from the Pakistan authorities and migrated to the Western countries and are living there ever since. O’h, yes they do travel every now and then to their ancesoral home whwenever they can, to Pakistan held Kashmir dirtect and to Indiasn held Kashmir via Pakistan mostly during the night when the Indian military is sleeping.
I would very much like to visit Kashmir or even India for that matter as a tourist and to see the land which the history tells me was considered a paradise on earth.
. Tibet in my view was and is a part of China.

I hope that your optimism for the Infdian future prevails.

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@Mortal 1
I agree to disagree with your anylysis and respect your opinion!
@007
I have different views to those of yours, and let us agree to disagree.
By the way, unlike your interpretation, I do not know what was ‘civil’ about the battles between the Yankees and the southerners. The answers to some of the questions;
.I would have also liked to see Indian military intervention to save the temil population in the neighbourhood.
. No I have not visited Kasshmir or India for that matter, but I happen to know some of Kashmir leaders and have met many Kashmiris in the West. my anylysis is that they could’nt care less about India or Pakistan. The took the first opportunity to flee the territory, obtained passport from the Pakistan authorities and migrated to the Western countries and are living there ever since. O’h, yes they do travel every now and then to their ancesoral home whwenever they can, to Pakistan held Kashmir dirtect and to Indiasn held Kashmir via Pakistan mostly during the night when the Indian military is sleeping.
I would very much like to visit Kashmir or even India for that matter as a tourist and to see the land which the history tells me was considered a paradise on earth.
. Tibet in my view was and is a part of China.

I hope that your optimism for the Infdian future prevails.
Good luck, Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@kEiThZ,

Thanks for clarifying the 1971 political situation regarding the west.

@Singh, you can’t keep blaming the western empire builders of the cold war for the choices that are being made today. India was on the wrong side of the cold war, siding with the Soviets, while claiming neutrality, it won it no friends with the west in the past, but today is a different reality. The Gandhi’s had turned India into a failing country in those days, thank God reform has come to India, in a big way and that really needs to be appreciated for what it is, what it stands for and India’s image today. India cannot just be slapped around like some third world throwback nation, those days are gone. Indians are not victims any more, we are global grade players, so please learn to look forward and appreciate that.
-Posted by G-W
===============

It’s unfortunate that people like KP Singh can’t look at history in context or with a critical eye. I should hope that he’s not an Indian bureaucrat. People like him are the exact reason that India and the West never got close during the Cold War.

I can appreciate that in the post-colonial era, there was undoubtedly some intrepidation towards building relations with the UK and new superpower. However, it’s not like the US and the UK did not make entreaties towards India early on.

Nehru, however, with his ridiculous faux non-alignment stance (“We’re neutral but we really like the Soviets more.”) backed the West into a corner. And eventually compelled the US to support Pakistan. The Gandhis (particuarly the first one), took this to a new level by aligning (supposedly neutral) India, with the Soviets, to a level, that might have surprised even some erstwhile Soviet allies. Unfortunately, on this side of the pond, there were guys like Nixon and Kissinger. And they completely misinterpreted India’s relationship with the Soviet Union and/or the space for a growing US-India relationship.

The only thing that saved relations with the West, was the end of the Cold War. Forced to deal with the US, it seems to be dawning on Indians that they have a lot in common.

One common complaint in the West, is that India looks at the world through a Pakistan prism. It’s not about what the US and India have in common. It’s about how the US can help India with regards to Pakistan. This mentality prevents relations from progressing. Indians can’t understand that the US is compelled to deal with Pakistan because its security interests are tied up there. This leads Indians to think that the US and the West in general is insincere…(reflected in KP Singh’s attitude here).

Apparently, Indians have never heard that even the best of friends can disagree from time to time. India needs to understand that the West does not have nefarious designs on the subcontinent (ranging from using India as a counter-weight to China, or propping up Pakistan to be a thorn in India’s side). They have their interests and they want to pursue them. And to a large part those consists of dealing with a prosperous India (particularly on trade) and containing the security threats emanating from Pakistan. Sometimes, their interests may not line up with that of India. Sometimes, they may simply make the wrong call. But none of that means the West or the US does not want a healthy (and even deep) relationship with India. A mature foreign policy would recognize this and would seek to build on the common ground that exists between India and the US (and the rest of the West).

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

Rex Minor,

Your opinions are about as substantial as your Kingship. Your attempts at moral equivalency are weak. Namely, they fall apart when you start making exceptions to your own rules.

To start with, let’s look at Kashmir. How is the Indian claim on Kashmir any different than the Chinese claim on Tibet? They were both independent at some points in their history and suzerains at other times. Yet, you suggest the Indian (and Pakistani) claim on Kashmir is weak but the Chinese claim on Tibet is valid? Spare us.

Next, the whole, “India and Pakistan are not nations.” gambit. Relevant how? Yes, by the strictest definitions they are not “nations” since that term largely refers to ethnic groups. What you are likely alluding to, is the fact that they are not “nation-states”? If that’s the case, I still fail to see how its relevant. Many countries have diverse populations throughout the world and get along quite decently. Virtually, all of the New World is composed of countries that are not nation-states. And most of them do define.

The concept of a nation-state is very passed in the 21st century. And following that to a tee is inevitably a recipe for disaster. Particularly, as it applies to the sub-continent. If Kashmiris deserve to get their own country, then why not the Ladakhis who live in Kashmir? Why not hit the reset button on Pakistan and India completely? Pashtoons get their own homeland. The Punjab region comes together to form a Punjabi homeland (Khalistan). West Bengalis can join their brothers in Bangladesh. So on and so on.

Now would that process leave anybody better off? I am seriously doubtful that 20 nation-states on the Indian subcontinent will leave anybody better off. Look at how disastrous it turned out to build two countries based on two religious outlooks (Pakistan for Muslims, India for the rest). You want to extend that concept to every ethnic group? Because what failed with two variables will work with twenty?

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

Pakistan has much to gain in every manner by abandoning extremist Islam and abandoning China and joining and making a pact with India, think about it Umair, it is time for revolution, time for a paradigm shift, do you have the courage and heart to contemplate such a thing?

Don’t let the mistakes of your forefathers and the politics of the past, drag your country and your futures to hell.

Posted by G-W
========

Well put. I imagine India and Pakistan eventually becoming like Canada and the US. Free trade. Easy movements across the border. At that point, will the border in Kashmir even matter, when you can drive across in minutes?

And maybe eventually, all of South Asia can become the next EU. No border posts. Live anywhere. Work anywhere. Imagine what South Asia would be like then.

But to achieve all this, people have to advance beyond their narrow minded nationalism and jingoism.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

@keItHz
I guess we lookmat things with a different angle. I do not disagree with your straight statements and I am suggesting nothing dramatic as you suppose. For India or Pakistan for that matter, it is not difficult to attain a Nation staus in view of their ‘commom’ history and Institutions. The democratic process is more complicated. The criterion used by the All india muslim league for creating a separate Pakistan was faulty. Mr Jinnah followed by others tried but failed. The Indian Congress leaders had no such religion boundries and normally they had a clean start. But then they bogged themself down with petty excuses and became the victim themselves of a certain part of the population who were prepared to aggressively oppose what the Indian Congress Party had originally agreed with the colonialists and the muslim league leaders. Obviously both the Indian muslim league and the Congress part did not receive one hundred support of the Indian population. This is very normal in a democratic plebisite. Nowc let us imagine if the Kashmir had not taken the course that it did, the situation between India and Pakistan would have been as normal as between two friendly countries. Be as it is India has problems with Kashmir and this has influenced Indian Psyche, foreign policy and the internal events since the creation of the state in 40′s. The cohesiveness of the people’s loyalty to India’s constitution is not complete. No one in his tight mind would suggest that several ethnic groups should all have separate countries? But you need to consider the people’s wishes and not the territory. This is short sighted. The eastern part of Pakistan became independent since the wishes of the Bengalis were not incorporated satisfactorily within the institutions of Pakistan. The Indian leaders are marching on like Pakistan simply to hold the territory allocated to them by the Brits. and where necessary with the use of military. We have all wirtnessedc that this policy has failed in Pakistan to its detriment and if this continues further parts of so called Pakistan would separate. Are the Indian leaders going to follow the same route. Human intelligence says, they should not. As a first step the Indian military become a national army, and so should your instutions. The people must be a full partner of the Army and the political and judicial institutions. As soon as India attains this status it is a Nation. The political will of all the people must be the supreme task for a Nation. People are free to change their mind in the future, but right now, hanging on to Kashmir against the agreement of All India Congress and the muslim league has influenced your foreign policies, even closer to a communist power than to the qwestrrn democracies. Despite the quick fixes the Kashmir issue remains. It does not matter what Pakistan Govt. desires are? What is important are the kashmiris scattered around the world like Palestinians not satisfied with their current status in India and Pakistan. Unlike communism, Democracies do not hang on to territories and ignore the political desire of people. We have witnessed not very long ago the separation of Chechs from the Slovakia inspite of both being slowly integrated in Europe. So what in this millanium, the prognosis is that the twenty seven European countries would become the federation of European Republic having a single central Govt.

It would be easier for the Pakistan Govt. to follow suit and perhaps in the next milaniam become once again a large India. Do India have the leaders for this task, I am sure yes from the younger generation? I have no knowledge of today’s India!! You most probably have.

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@keItHz
I guess we look at things with a different angle. I do not disagree with your straight statements and I am suggesting nothing dramatic as you suppose. For India or Pakistan for that matter, it is not difficult to attain a Nation staus in view of their ‘commom’ history and Institutions. The democratic process is more complicated. The criterion used by the All india muslim league for creating a separate Pakistan was faulty. Mr Jinnah followed by others tried but failed. The Indian Congress leaders had no such religion boundries and normally they had a clean start. But then they bogged themself down with petty excuses and became the victim themselves of a certain part of the population who were prepared to aggressively oppose what the Indian Congress Party had originally agreed with the colonialists and the muslim league leaders. Obviously both the Indian muslim league and the Congress part did not receive one hundred support of the Indian population. This is very normal in a democratic plebisite. Nowc let us imagine if the Kashmir had not taken the course that it did, the situation between India and Pakistan would have been as normal as between two friendly countries. Be as it is India has problems with Kashmir and this has influenced Indian Psyche, foreign policy and the internal events since the creation of the state in 40′s. The cohesiveness of the people’s loyalty to India’s constitution is not complete. No one in his tight mind would suggest that several ethnic groups should all have separate countries? But you need to consider the people’s wishes and not the territory. This is short sighted. The eastern part of Pakistan became independent since the wishes of the Bengalis were not incorporated satisfactorily within the institutions of Pakistan. The Indian leaders are marching on like Pakistan simply to hold the territory allocated to them by the Brits. and where necessary with the use of military. We have all wirtnessedc that this policy has failed in Pakistan to its detriment and if this continues further parts of so called Pakistan would separate. Are the Indian leaders going to follow the same route. Human intelligence says, they should not. As a first step the Indian military become a national army, and so should your instutions. The people must be a full partner of the Army and the political and judicial institutions. As soon as India attains this status it is a Nation. The political will of all the people must be the supreme task for a Nation. People are free to change their mind in the future, but right now, hanging on to Kashmir against the agreement of All India Congress and the muslim league has influenced your foreign policies, even closer to a communist power than to the qwestrrn democracies. Despite the quick fixes the Kashmir issue remains. It does not matter what Pakistan Govt. desires are? What is important are the kashmiris scattered around the world like Palestinians not satisfied with their current status in India and Pakistan. Unlike communism, Democracies do not hang on to territories and ignore the political desire of people. We have witnessed not very long ago the separation of Chechs from the Slovakia inspite of both being slowly integrated in Europe. So what in this millanium, the prognosis is that the twenty seven European countries would become the federation of European Republic having a single central Govt.

It would be easier for the Pakistan Govt. to follow suit and perhaps in the next milaniam become once again a large India. Do India have the leaders for this task, I am sure yes from the younger generation? I have no knowledge of today’s India!! You most probably have.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@Rex Minor
“By the way, unlike your interpretation, I do not know what was ‘civil’ about the battles between the Yankees and the southerners. The answers to some of the questions;”

I was simply refering to the timeline there and not discussing war between yankies and southeners but if u still want to know what was civil in that war then go check that oxford dictionary according to which u say India and Pakistan are not a nation. Thats ur problem, whenever u r found wanting for ur logic u try to turn away from the topic. Are we discussing American Civil War here that u put up that question?

@”The people must be a full partner of the Army and the political and judicial institutions”

Are you saying that right now people in India are not full partner of Army and political and judicial institutions? This is a serious claim and you better provide substantial support to ur statement or clarify ur context beyond any kind of doubt or otherwise I will definitely report it as abusive.

And on kashmir:
1. Kashmir in no imagination can be an independent nation because even if india and pakistan renounce their claim on kashmir even then there is china that will have no second thought in annexing kashmir.
2. Even if china does not annex kashmir then also independent kashmir cannot survive economically without India or Pakistan. And since pakistan cannot support itself financially leave aside supporting kashmir. So kashmiris again look to india for a market. Sample the case of nepal.
3. And given current scenario of pakistan and india no wise kashmiri is going to choose pakistan over india.
4. So eventually one day kashmir will be united and will always depend on new delhi.

Posted by 007XXX | Report as abusive

@007
Sorry, you are not with it.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

G-W said:

> Pakistan has much to gain in every manner by abandoning extremist Islam and abandoning China and joining and making a pact with India, think about it Umair, it is time for revolution, time for a paradigm shift, do you have the courage and heart to contemplate such a thing?
>
> Don’t let the mistakes of your forefathers and the politics of the past, drag your country and your futures to hell.

My sentiments exactly.

Look at the populations of the countries in our neighbourhood.

China 1338 million
India 1182 million
Pakistan 170 million
Bangladesh 162 million

Now do the math. India + Pakistan + Bangladesh = 1514 million, which dwarfs China! And this is without adding Sri Lanka, Nepal and the Maldives. The South Asian Free Trade Zone, when it becomes a reality, will cause great envy in China.

China isn’t a sentimental country. No sane country is. If they act like Pakistan’s “all-weather friend” against India, it’s because it’s always in their interest to keep Pakistan and India apart. Ordinary Pakistanis should see this. Today, their country is a pariah in the world. Anyone in the world would complete the adjective “Pakistani” with the noun “terrorist”, which is a great pity. Pakistanis can turn their fortunes around dramatically by seeing through the scheme of their “all-weather friend” and making peace with India. You will win respect and prosperity on a scale you are not used to.

The South Asian Union (on the lines of the European Union) will be bigger than China. We (all of us, Indians, Pakistanis, Bangladeshis) will be part of the largest political entity on earth, and could one day be part of the largest economic entity on earth as well. Even China will not dare stay miffed with Pakistan for long, when it’s part of such a powerful entity.

By the way, don’t see this as an Indian begging for a favour. India doesn’t need Pakistan. India will be more populous than China by the middle of the century, anyway. And India is mending fences quite nicely with Bangladesh, because Bangadesh has seen the virtue of making peace with its rising neighbour. There is prosperity in store for anyone who aligns with India, and one by one, the countries of the world are lining up to do business. It appears that only Pakistan has not seen the light.

Interesting that the one man in Pakistan who does see the light is reviled by Pakistanis as “Mister ten percent”. If you look really hard, you’ll see that your much-admired army is made up of Mister hundred percents.

Wake up, guys!

Regards,
Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

@Prasadgc,

Than you Prasad. I have always felt that if all of India’s neighbours smartened up and realize that we are all a part of the same historical make up and same culture, despite the fact that we have different religions, nobody can push us or bully us around. I mean all…like Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Nepal, Maldives…all these countries have so many likenesses and we should not let political or religious differences be a roadblock or hindrance to our goals as nations, we CAN have a shared destiny if we work together and reject outside forces like China who seek to elevate themselves by keeping us divided and fighting. The truth of the matter is, that if we formed a South Asian Union, we would be a force to be reckoned with and China will try hand in claw to do everthing to prevent that.

It just baffles me how Pakistani’s can see the Chinese as some sort of common friends, can you get a dosa, lassi or samosa in China? Do we share clothes, language, culture or anything with China?..no. Chinese don’t think much of the south asians…no matter who they are, Pak, Indian or Nepalese.

The south asians need to form a pact and build friendships that are enduring and built on mutual culture, history, language and many other things.

I still believe the only thing that will save Pakistan from its own suicidal behavior is its “all weather enemy” and big brother India.

Poor Pakistani’s need to wake up and realize that they are being used as a proxy by China. China cares damn for Islam, cares damn for religion, cares damn for Indo-Pak culture and cares damn for Pakistani peoples, let alone its own people. All weather friend my foot, more like all weather user.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

A South Asian Union would undoubtedly be a force to be reckoned with. More people than any other economic entity in the world. Fifth largest geographical area of any economic entity (behind the NAFTA zone, Russia, Brazil and the EU). In a few years, they could easily be the world’s largest economy.

On and on….the advantages are incredible. The disadvantages miniscule or non-existent. But it all hinges on Pakistan and India putting their rivalry behind them.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

kEiThZ said:

> But it all hinges on Pakistan and India putting their rivalry behind them.

Don’t be so damned infuriatingly even-handed, Keith! It’s not even cute anymore. We all know who the bottleneck is. And they need to get off their jihadist ****s and think constructively for a change.

India has been ready to make peace for decades. Just not with terrorists.

Ganesh Prasad

Posted by prasadgc | Report as abusive

@anesh Prasad
You are asking too much of a muslim state to get off their jehadis*****. First they do not understand your jibberish language and secondly for a muslim to forget Jihad is like asking an FBI man to forget his dective work. Please have mercy on them, Jehad is the only usable weapon they have got left to fight the infidels. They do not yet know how to use the nukes against you. By the way you are not an infidel, are you. If not you should’nt worry about their Jihad. I am sure they are going to find the infidels among themselves.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

[...] says it cannot tackle all militant groups at once and has complained about U.S. pressure to “do more” when its army is already taking heavy casualties fighting the Tehrik-e-Taliban-e-Pakistan (TTP) or [...]

[...] says it cannot tackle all militant groups at once and has complained about U.S. pressure to “do more” when its army is already taking heavy casualties fighting the Tehrik-e-Taliban-e-Pakistan (TTP) or [...]

[...] That message of U.S. commitment to Pakistan was reinforced in a statement released this week by the U.S. embassy in Islamabad and as my colleague Chris Allbritton writes in this analysis, there is little reason to believe the WikiLeaks uproar will change Washington’s approach of trying to build a long-term relationship with Pakistan while also leaning on it to “do more” to tackle Islamist militants.  [...]

[...] That message of U.S. commitment to Pakistan was reinforced in a statement released this week by the U.S. embassy in Islamabad and as my colleague Chris Allbritton writes in this analysis, there is little reason to believe the WikiLeaks uproar will change Washington’s approach of trying to build a long-term relationship with Pakistan while also leaning on it to “do more” to tackle Islamist militants.  [...]

[...] That message of U.S. commitment to Pakistan was reinforced in a statement released this week by the U.S. embassy in Islamabad and as my colleague Chris Allbritton writes in this analysis, there is little reason to believe the WikiLeaks uproar will change Washington’s approach of trying to build a long-term relationship with Pakistan while also leaning on it to “do more” to tackle Islamist militants.  [...]

[...] That message of U.S. commitment to Pakistan was reinforced in a statement released this week by the U.S. embassy in Islamabad and as my colleague Chris Allbritton writes in this analysis, there is little reason to believe the WikiLeaks uproar will change Washington’s approach of trying to build a long-term relationship with Pakistan while also leaning on it to “do more” to tackle Islamist militants.  [...]