Between golf and war, Pakistan’s General Kayani’s future is debated

May 26, 2010

kayani profileThe Pakistan Army prides itself on being an institution which rises above politics and personal ambition, committed to defend the interests of the nation. That this has not always been the case is demonstrated by its history of military coups, and a tendency of past military rulers, from General Zia ul-Haq to former president Pervez Musharraf, to impose a very personal brand of leadership.  Where Zia pushed Pakistan towards hardline Islam, Musharraf aimed at “enlightened moderation” in a country he wanted modelled more on Turkey than on Saudi Arabia.

While no one expects the military to launch another coup, some of that historical memory is feeding into increasingly intense speculation about the future of Pakistan Army chief General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, who is due to retire in November.

The general who is arguably Pakistan’s most powerful man has given few clues as to whether he might seek an extension in office beyond November.  But earlier this week Pakistani paper The News reported that the army’s corps commanders wanted him to stay on to see through the battle against Islamist militants in the tribal areas bordering Afghanistan. One theory doing the rounds is that Kayani could be appointed as chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee, with oversight over the air force and navy as well as the army,  and with the role given enhanced powers to ensure he remains in command.

Kayani has been credited with restoring the army’s image in Pakistan - it had suffered from the popular resentment against Musharraf, who stepped down in 2008 . He has also made it clear the military had no intention of taking over the country, although it continues to call the shots on foreign and security policy.  He has overseen some successful operations in the tribal areas and built a reasonable working relationship with the Americans.

A former head of the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) agency, Kayani never gives public interviews and therefore remains somewhat inscrutable for those trying to gauge his attitude to the United States or Pakistan’s traditional enemy India.  That said, he has always made his views clear when it seemed that either the United States or the civilian government were about to over-step the boundary into what the Pakistan Army considers its own domain.  A suggestion floated by President Asif Ali Zardari in 2008 that Pakistan adopt a policy of no first use of nuclear weapons was quickly dropped after raising hackles in the army which determinedly guards its control of the nuclear arsenal. 

Kayani spoke out fiercely against a reported incursion by U.S. ground troops in 2008 and in 2009 condemned provisions in the Kerry-Lugar U.S. aid package which called for greater civilian oversight of military appointments and promotions.

The civilian government has given mixed messages about whether it wants Kayani to stay on, but is seen as unlikely to challenge the military or the United States if either or both of them decide they need to keep him in command. In any case, after a rocky start, the civilian government and the military appear to have found – for now at least – an accommodation with each other in which the government relies on the army to fight the Pakistani Taliban in the tribal areas and knows better than to cross its red lines when it comes to foreign and security policy.

Pakistani analysts, journalists and officials I have spoken to tend to have mixed views on whether Kayani should stay on beyond November – although so far at least the discussion is rarely as animated as it can be on other subjects involving Pakistan.

On one side are those who say that Pakistan needs to build its institutions - from the government to the military to the judiciary – rather than allowing itself to be dominated, as has happened in the past, by a single strong personality.  “Generally speaking we should not rely on people; we should rely on institutions,” argued one senior Pakistani journalist. “Otherwise you get the example of Zia and Musharraf, who took the country from one side to the other.”   Moreover, the power of the army in the past has been blamed for never allowing democracy to mature – behaving as it does as an anxious parent who lets his child learn to crawl, but gets worried when he or she learns to run.

On the other are those who argue that Pakistan, above all, needs continuity right now – and nowhere more so than in the army.   The United States is deeply unpopular in an army which while not Islamicised, is nonetheless manned by Muslims, many of whom are seriously unhappy about American policies following the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks, including its campaign in Afghanistan and invasion of Iraq. (I once had the experience of having to change the subject from Iraq to Kashmir during a lunch with some Pakistani army officers in order to bring us into calmer territory.)

No one is expecting disgruntled junior officers to rebel against their seniors because of Pakistan’s support for the United States – the army is extremely disciplined, as Anatol Lieven, a professor at Kings College in London, argues in this article for the National Interest. But the army is nonetheless involved in fighting its own people in the tribal areas and – so the proponents of an extension for Kayani argue – would cope with the strains better if he were to stay on.

It seems unlikely we will get an answer any time soon on whether Kayani will stay on after November - the inscrutable general has not in the past behaved like a man who would show his cards before he needed to.  All we can say with near-certainty is what he might do if he were to retire. According to the official biography on the website of the army’s Inter-Services Public Relations wing, he is an avid golfer and President of Pakistan Golf Association.

204 comments

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It is interesting to see that Pakistan’s reliance on its military is reinforced by indirect acknowledgment by Westerners like the author here. There is a sub-conscious belief that Pakistan’s military is the only relevant institution in that nation. In every other country, people discuss about civilian leaders. Here all importance is given to a military general. This attitude both in Pakistanis and their Western supporters will only lead to the strengthening of the military’s hold on power. Civilian leaders like Gilani are made to appear totally irrelevant. Somehow the article gives the feeling that Pakistan’s future depends on which general gets ascend the throne. I’d expect writers and media personnel to help control any damage to a system by supporting the right thing in their writings. Discussing who would be king through gossip like articles defeats that purpose. I am disappointed not to see any good articles that talk about Pakistan’s fledgling democracy, its emerging civilian leaders etc. Articles of that kind will change the public mindset. Instead of changing that mindset, if writers join the party, that is an act of irresponsibility. Anyway, this is a free world where freedom of expression should be respected. I’d leave it at that. However, I’d expect some degree of responsibility for writers in shaping the future direction.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Myra used to respond..what happened?

It almost reads like Umair wrote this article. Sadly articles like this are promotion of pakistan army.If Indians point out the fallacies, and untruths, we’ll be accused of “envy” and “bias”.

Stating pak army is not Islamized is like saying Jinnah was a secularist. Of course they are all “westernized” and “modern”. They train in the the US and paly golf. But they run jihadi terrorist militias, and recruit youngsters as fodder. How do you motivate them? Of course through Islamization of everything.

Here is the official web page outlining the motto of
the pakistan “army which while not Islamicised”:

http://www.pakistanarmy.gov.pk/

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive

@ KPSingh01

Could not agree more.

Posted by Pravinraje | Report as abusive

In spite of all the guesses about what Kayani would do in the future; I believe that he has no intention of taking over the country, because the image of the army has already been ruined by Mr. Musharraf.

Posted by SZaman88 | Report as abusive

I believe Kayani is going no where until America have safely exited Afghanistan, with it still being called the USA(United States of America) instead of DSA (Divided States of America). Gen Kayani should stay, and so should Gen Shuja Pasha.

Pakistan’s policies with regards to Afghanistan are clear today as they were 3 decades ago. In those days, all promotions/retirements had been temporarily halted till Kremlin gave way. Only difference is, this time around, instead of USSR, its USA. Washington hasn’t really played the game any better than Moscow did. With all its might and intelligence support, USA has brought a bad name home. The veterans of the Afghan war tell another story while the American Govt. insists on something else. Surprisingly however, the media is still not convinced on bridging the gap by telling the people what exactly went wrong in Afghanistan.

The Talibans are still out at large, and with their renewed enthusiasm in winning this war, I doubt the fact that the USA is ever gonna get out of Afghanistan without blowing a big hole in its chest.

Posted by PakRanger | Report as abusive

Whether Kayani’s term is extended or who replaces him will be decided by the US this time. The financial and military aid carrot will be dangled to force Pakistani army to tow in line. Most probably Kayani will stay on until Obama decides it is enough and pulls most of his troops out just in time before the next election campaign. The US will return after the election to continue its activities. So troop pull out will just be a drama staged to gain in the next Presidential election. It won’t matter who becomes the next American President. The situation in Af-Pak will still be intractable. So Kayani will be placed in charge of the Pak army until pressure at home is deflected off. Kayani is also needed to build confidence on the civilian government in Pakistan. The goal will be to help Gilani complete full term as PM of Pakistan. This is very vital to the stability of the region. For all these equations to be met, Kayani’s extension is needed. My forecast is that Kayani will stay on.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Gen. Kayani is an intelligent officer hailing from Jhelum, not sure of he studied at MCJ- Military College Jhelum before graduating from Pakistan Military Academy. He is senior, very much service oriented and Pakistan Army is engaged in operations with timelines. Pakistan needs someone like Gen. Kayani at the helm who can remains in control at home and interact with the west/ NATO etc at this critical moment. Not only that, we have the best officers in place currently, Gen. Ahmed Shuja DG ISI, Air Marshal Qamar Suleman Chief of Air Staff, CJSC Gen. Tariq Majeed. DG Strategic Plans Div LT. Gen Khalid. Salute, Gentleman, we need professionals like you, and hope clowns like Zardari remain confined to the lawn of Aiwan-E-Sadar Presidential Palace and don’t do any damage. Our politicians have no shame not the least. And this government is democratic but very weak, Army has to fill the vaccum. And the notion that the Army interferes in national matters is just because the lack of civilians and incompetence of politicians, their greed and inability to perform on matters of vital strategic national interests. Then why blame the Pakistan Army?

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

PakRanger:
“Washington hasn’t really played the game any better than Moscow did. With all its might and intelligence support, USA has brought a bad name home.”

-One mistake that both the USSR and USA made was to underestimate the resolve of Afghan nation to defend their country from foreign invaders. Today those lessons are being learnt the hard way, after a decade, and expense of billions of dollars and loss of thousands of lives, USA is loosing face at home and loosing the war in Afghanistan.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Any aspiring prospective future superpower looking to venture in Afghanistan? Doesn’t look like a good idea!

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

How long Kayani stays on, is entirely up to him. He’s the de facto ruler of Pakistan & it doesen’t matter whether he’s directly in charge or not because indirectly he controls everything. Civilian clowns like Zardari & Gilani are merely puppets at his disposal & mercy.

@”The Pakistan Army prides itself on being an institution which rises above politics and personal ambition, committed to defend the interests of the nation”

How about priding itself for being the institution which has single handedly radicalized, bankrupted & ruined the nation?

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

@Mortal1
How about priding itself for being the institution which has single handedly radicalized, bankrupted & ruined the nation?

Posted by Mortal1

Pakistan military has the biggest share in Pakistan’s stock exchange. It operates commercial bank, airline, steel, cement, telecom, petroleum and energy, education, sports, health care and even chains of grocery shops and bakeries!!

Many, if not most paks will agree with your comments.

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive

Umair,

Don’t worry. The West has learned lots of lessons from the Afghan war. You better hope your economy is in good shape before the last westerner leaves Afghanistan. This is less being seen as a NATO/US loss and more being seen as Pakistan scoring an own goal on its allies. Pakistan’s insincerity in this conflict won’t easily be forgotten for a while yet.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

What I’ve found ridiculous is that Pakistan leadership structure. The Army is in charge. The other services play a distant second fiddle. Giving Kayani a CJCS post simply enforces that mentality further?

How is this at all good for Pakistan’s defence is beyond me. The two services that are arguably most vital in the early stages of any war with India would be the Navy (to keep SLOCs open) and the Air Force (to prevent the IAF establishing air superiority over Pakistan), are the ones relegated to second and third place in the command structure, while the holding force that could effectively stave off invasion by holdings its ground is given the leadership role. There’s a reason why, for example, countries like the UK and the USA will routinely award top leadership positions to naval personnel. They understand the importance of their sea LOCs. Or why they promote Air Force personnel. They understand the importance of new battlefields like cyber and space warfare.

Now if your military is less about the defence of the nation and more about running the country itself or managing other private interests, well then, such logic is irrelevant.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

@ Keithz

Most Pakistanis seem to be of the opinion that all their problems will just disappear once the US/NATO troops withdraw from AfPak. I think, their problems will increase manifold & quite dramatically and the Talibanization of Pakistan will become imminent.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

@Any aspiring prospective future superpower looking to venture in Afghanistan? Doesn’t look like a good idea!
–Umairpk

Umair: I think this time there will be small times crooks from a neighboring country, who already were there before 9/11. They will be back in business—Afghans need them them or not.

@one mistake that both the USSR and USA made was to underestimate the resolve of Afghan nation to defend their country from foreign invaders…….”.
—–So yes I agree that neither those superpowers nor these crooks understand that Afghans do not want them and all of em are invaders.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive

@How about priding itself for being the institution which has single handedly radicalized, bankrupted & ruined the nation?”
–Mortal1

—Ask Umair and he will tell u that was in the best interest of the nation. :-)

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive

Now if your military is less about the defence of the nation-
Posted by kEiThZ

Well..well…from a professional perspective pakistan army has never been about actual fighting. If you look at each and every war and semi-wars they started with India it was usually fantasy, no strategy, calling American Daddy for help…help after initial adventure.

Besides running bakeries, the other activities are getting posh real estate, sending their sons and daughters to US to get green cards..Gen Musharaff has settled his son in Boston, sent poor soldiers to perish in the barren mountains of Kashmir in 99 for the glory of Islam.. didn’t even collect the bodies. Indian army had to give them Islamic burials.

Such has been always the “professionalism”, “western” “secular” “modern” outlook of pakistani generals.

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive

Shouldn’t this Reuters news item be a part of this blog?

“U.S. studies options for possible Pakistan attack” – Reuters

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE64 S0CX20100529

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Amen to that:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37410800/ns/ world_news-washington_post/

I really want the US to strike hard at the epi-center of global terrorism and not look back. Pakistan will do nothing. They are very good at switching sides and rewriting history. Look at what Musharraf did after 9/11. These guys only thump their chests and as soon as they get the real blow, they fall and pray.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Keithz:
“Don’t worry. The West has learned lots of lessons from the Afghan war. You better hope your economy is in good shape before the last westerner leaves Afghanistan. This is less being seen as a NATO/US loss and more being seen as Pakistan scoring an own goal on its allies. Pakistan’s insincerity in this conflict won’t easily be forgotten for a while yet.”

-I can understand your feeling it looks frightening to think of the moment when you will loose the war and leave Afghanistan.

“Lagane ai the aag jo gulshan ko, wo sholey apne Lahu se Bhuja diye tum ne”.
Translation: They who came to burn the garden, You extinguished those flames with your blood”.

Today if westerners are loosing the war in Afghanistan, it is because you are cowards. Look at the statistics and number Pakistan’s 2700 officers and men laid down their lives (Pakistan alone). Entire US and 42 nations NATO casulaties in Afghanistan are less then half of Pakistan’s. Pakistan has almost 800 border posts along with Afghan border, how many does the colaition have?
Do not worry about Pakistan’s economy, rather worry about the sitution in US, job losses, helthcre, financial crisis in Europe.
Ironically, the 1980s Afghan war diverted Soviet attention from Warsaw pct nations, which took the opportunity to become more rebellious. The war itself was an economic drain and failure in the war gave the opponents of Soviet regime an increasing platform to attack it. All these factors contributed to the downfall of USSR.
I wish you best of luck in Afghan war again this time. Watch out for Cuba, Venezuela, China, North Korea, Iran.

And remember, the score will be settled, betrayal for betrayal. You used us to defeat communism and ditched us. We played a razor sharp double game and you feel devastated. We will be more than happy to see your backs, tody we face a chllenging security environment in Pakistan whereas before ours was a more peaceful country.

Lastly, to the reports of US studying options to attack Pakistan. Well such a move will unite everyone in Pakistn, from the moderate, to the militry to the extremists. The answer should be, suspend all diplomtic relations with US, than just as calm before the storm and boom in Tehran. Pakistan should secretly assist Tehran to develop nuclear bomb within months. Pakistan should keep all its cards ready.
BTW being from a military family myself, I have all the respect for the fallen coalition soldiers in Afghanistan and their families. If only colaition can work with Pkistan than against Pakistan,will you find a sincere ally in Pakistan. Our own house is on fire and you tell us we betryed you is just ridiculous. The fire you started after invading Afghanistan the border areas of Pakistan are ablaze and fireballs are raging in Pakistani cities. But dont worry, we will face it, and fix it.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

@ “Today if westerners are loosing the war in Afghanistan, it is because you are cowards.” Posted by Umairpk

Nope. It’s largely because your vile & slimy army played both sides while appearing to be an “ally” for almost 7 years. If they had been sincere, there’s a good chance this thing would’ve been wrapped up some time back. A bulk of the Pakistani casualties that you mention, have occurred in the last few years when your army has been compelled to face the monsters which it created, nurtered & sheilded for a long time. The biggest mistake that the US/NATO made was to place the trust in your army, which it never deserved in the first place. These are the facts & reciting verses from odes won’t change that.

@ “We played a razor sharp double game and you feel devastated.”

And who exactly has this “razor sharp” double game that you boast of, devastated? As we speak, your country is rife with violence, ethnic strife, radicalism, poverty, unemployment, illiteracy & facing global isolation and we are the one’s who are devastated? How delusional & irrational can you get man!

@ “The answer should be, suspend all diplomtic relations with US, than just as calm before the storm and boom in Tehran.”

ROFL. Your threats are really hillarious. Talk is cheap buddy. It’s easy to thump your chest & declare “we’ll do this & we’ll do that”. Once your country is officially declared a “Rogue Nation” by the US & allies & slapped with hard economic sanctions, how do you propose to survive without aid, loans & with economic sanctions? As it is your country has no economy to speak of, whatever little bit of foreign revenues it earns is from exporting agricultural produce & fabric/apparel and a bulk of it is to the US & allies, so how exactly will you survive? The reality is that despite all your tough talk & fantasies, Pakistan will be bankrupt & on it’s knees within no time.
Also, don’t count so heavily on China. I’ve spent enough time amongst Chinese folks to know that they are one of the shrewdest, most unemotional & self centered breed of humans on this earth. Loyalty hardly means much to them in front of their economic interests. A bulk of their economic interests are tied with the US & west and if pressured a little, they’ll drop Pakistan like a bag of dirt before you can even blink. So don’t expect them to bail you out, when you are isolated.

@ “The fire you started after invading Afghanistan the border areas of Pakistan are ablaze and fireballs are raging in Pakistani cities.”

The fire in your house is actually from the torches which your army had been using to burn it’s neighbours but an accident (9/11) occurred, it’s own backyard caught afire & now it’s become uncontrollable.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Irrespective of the Indian serial-pak haters are saying, Pakistan has always been extremely supportive of America. We live in a tough neighborhood and its hard for a poor country to do everything.

http://reformistani.wordpress.com/2010/0 3/28/pakistans-support-of-america/

Pakistan has not been the aggressor. The Indians here are lying. India has been the aggressor.

http://reformistani.wordpress.com/2010/0 4/30/pakistanaggressor/

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

@UmairpK,

Sometimes I wonder.. if such is the mentality of a educated Pakistani citizen, who prides himself by the defeat of US/NATO, as if it is victory for Pakistan. You still fail to understand Umair that, this is not only defeat for US/NATO, it is defeat for entire Pakistan nation. And it will not be very long after US leaves, the victorious extremist will govern your nation. US will have two choices about your nukes before they leave, either to clean then up while leaving Af-Pak or wait to see the developments in Pakistan and hope that there will be non-extremist government in Pakistan. There is very little possibility of non-extermist government considering the current affairs in Pakistan.
And then US will have no other option but to bomb your nuke sites so that they do not fall into hands of these fanatics. Westerners will not like that but they will not have any other option. And at this time US will be merciless. Remember WW2?

Posted by Pravinraje | Report as abusive

Umair,

You still haven’t answered my question about the leadership changes. How is this good for Pakistan? How is it good to have one service dominate the command structure so thoroughly?

The Indians are going through this too. Thankfully (for them), they have civilians who can balance things out. How will Pakistan handle this? The PAF needs tons of new equipment. How do you think an Army CJCS will handle PAF requests for new jets? How do you think an Army CJCS will handle PN requests?

You can change the subject. But ultimately, the question remains unanswered. How is this good for Pakistan?

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

mirzauman,

What are the Indians lying about? I don’t recall Mumbaikars trying to plant car bombs in Time Square.

It’s clear in poll after poll that Pakistanis have no love for the US or the West. Except for when they get visas. Then they move here, refuse to integrate and complain about how bad the West is and how their children are being corrupted.

Worse is the fact that for every dollar more the Americans give, the hatred seems to grow. Yet, American patience seems to be incredible. I can’t recall another country in their history that they have treated so well. They sent the Japanese atom bombs for less than what Pakistan has done to the US (fostered a safehaven for anybody and everybody that wants to attack the US, its allies and its interests). More Americans have died as a result of the Taliban and Al Qaeda (sheltered by Pakistani proxies in Afghanistan or the FATA) then died in Pearl Harbour. Think about that for a second.

The US is upset. It’s not because of what the Indians are saying. But because they feel betrayed by Pakistan. The only problem is that their hands are tied right now in Afghanistan. The day that commitment ends, is the day the kid gloves come off.

And really, what’s left to discuss when the son of Pakistani generals is attempting to kill innocent Americans at home. At that point, you really have to wonder how sincere Pakistanis really are.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

mirzauman,

I read your articles about Pakistani support during the cold war. Forget that historical BS. There is no sympathy for that on this side of the pond. Not while American troops are dying because of the complicity or unwilling of Pakistanis to take action against “non-state actors”, and not while Pakistanis are actively trying to kill American citizens.

Beyond that, the relationship was a two-way street. Pakistan didn’t do those things out of the goodness of its heart. Pakistan co-operated with the US because of its own interests and worries about the Soviets. You can thank Charlie Wilson. If it wasn’t for him, nobody would have cared.

Pakistan and the US needed each other during the Cold War. That is not the case any more. If Afghanistan does not get stabilized, the West will simply leave and the US will start cracking down on Pakistan. Sanctions, visa restrictions, severe pressure on Pakistan’s allies (China). Maybe you guys can coddle up to Iran. Who knows, instead of London or New York, maybe Tehran will be the new hotspot for Pakistanis.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

In partition Punjab, Bengal, Sindh (Kachh) etc all were divided. It was J&K which was not divided and its accession to India was in totality by its ruler. J&K was ruled by Hindu ruler and was having varied religious beliefs, ethnicity and culture with Muslim majority. As regards to scares of partition, they are visible everywhere on both sides of the border whether it is Punjab, Bengal, Sindh (Kachh) and J&K is not exception to it. Similarly, after partition the sectarian clashes in Indian side are more in States where mass migration of partition has taken place. However, with the passage of time the fear psychosis in Muslims as to discrimination (being a Hindu majority country) existing at the time of partition continued dipping and at present such fear psychic is a matter of bygone era.
The Muslim population of India is any time more than the entire population of Pakistan. The Muslim majority State of J&K and Union Territory of Lakshadweep are Jewell in our secularism with their diversified ethnicity and culture. The fear psychic in Kashmir valley in the past was compounded, as it was cut off from rest of India in the absence of road/rail link and political interference of our neighboring country. Few separatist leaders, terrorists and across LOC/ Border activities are still trying to play with minds of the people in the name of religion and citing scattered incidences of over reaction by armed forces. The sacred religion of Islam is being used for politicking by such people. The majority of educated youth of valley understand it very well which is also reflected in this poll results. The J&K’s accession to India is in writing, legal, binding and enforceable not only in international law but also on all Indian citizens living in any State/ Union Territory of India including J&K.
To my reading no part of the Constitution of India or laws applicable in IHK is undemocratic or unfavorable for its residents. The residents of J&K have full rights as per the treaty of its accession. As to the ‘right to self-determination’ – will anybody enlighten us about the list of rights which at present are not available to Kashmiri as compared to other citizens of India? And which the Kashmiri want in the name of self-determination? To my opinion in every social set up we sacrifice some of our personal rights for social order. These sacrifices are at all levels i.e. from individual to family, from family to neighborhood, from neighborhood to community and so on. Self determination of all rights to my opinion may lead to Jungle Raj. So please first list the rights desired and see whether such rights are available anywhere else? Similarly, all religions whether it is Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, Sikhism or any other are also having some social orders wherein individuals are asked to sacrifice their certain rights. Please also list and analyze the practices prohibited by different religions to understand rights of self determination you lose by adopting a particular religion? In India, we proudly sacrifice our certain rights of self-determination (excluding fundamental rights) to our elected representatives in Indian Parliament which is representative of 1.2 billion citizens (i.e. World’s largest).
I have no hesitation in writing that one of the causes which hampered the growth of J&K is its various commercial and land laws. They are skewed in favour of its permanent residents severely affecting in J&K the prospects of industrialization, trade and employment generation as compared to the States of Himachal Pradesh and Uttaranchal. It is unfortunate that few vested interests in J&K valley are taking advantage of lack of education, lack of employment opportunities and lack enlightenment of youth and are misguiding them. In a free society like India, the need of the hour for all of us is not only read history, but to understand it and take future decisions as to where we have fruits of prosperity. Now the challenge before the secessionist elements in J&K is only to prove their worth in State elections and change undemocratic laws, if there is any, in J&K State list. For them further challenges of suggesting amendments in Indian Constitution come only after that?
As regards to Kashmir issue – Please also enlighten me whether the aspirations of Kashmiri are represented by hooligans on streets or by gun tottering terrorists? It is funny when the people who could not ensure democracy in their own land speak for plebiscite in IHK? Please note that the democratic India is a guiding light for entire world and is being respected like that everywhere. In a free society like India, people very well understand as to where they have the fruits of prosperity and the poll represent this fact.
I believe that free and frank opinions are never biased even if they are emanating from within a country or from across the border. However, it is a collective wisdom of opinions which make governments to think and act. The flow of information will at least help general public on both sides of the border at least in agreeing that we disagree on certain issues.

Posted by SatishChadha | Report as abusive

After reading the various well articulated comments, I find some salient facts missing;

.Both India and Pakistan have not reached a Nation status. Let me clarify,after the departure of the colonial masters, the Brits left the country with a more or less a structure as they found it, a divided land made up of an ethnic mix ruled by war lords including maharajas and sultans.
. They left the format as agreed between the new colonialist educated leaders of the All India congress and muslim league parties.
. After a lapse of over sixty years both countries have mad a very little progress, except for developing lethal weapons capable of eliminating the entire population of the sub-continent and more.
. The Indian leaders have done better in economics, something they were good at even during the British Raj. The Pakistan leaders got some Pseudo intellectuals from India in the beginning, but later had to suffice with semi-educated so called military chiefs who in their practice for democracy kept on turning the clock back and forth partly giving it to civilians and then taking it back whenever the military man emerged. Now they are talking about Gen. Kyani who is trying to prove his mettle with The Pashtoons. His predecessory Indian born military head felt comfotable in nit pricking the strong neighbour With the larger military at whose hands Pakistan has suffered the humiliating defeat and like a bull terrier was unable to let the bite go, until he was clobbered on his head by the afro American adversary.
His prize was the title of a ‘Dog’ given to him for his services by the unarmed civilian lawyer citizens.
. Both countries have not yet managed to raise a National army to defend their borders, and not see their main task in suppressing their own citizens. And yet be ready to surrender as soon as the opponent is stronger. Both armies have won the Guiness record of having surrendered in full combat ready force on the battle ground. We all know the loss of Eastern wing of Pakistan and the loss of so called Indian territory to Chinese. Your armies today in the new millinium are still engaged in capturing territoris, not caring the least for the citizens of the territories.
. If I were you, I would be ashamed to admit being an Indian or a Pakistani. India has not overcome their prejudice agaist different religions and csate system. Pakistan on the other hand has been able to create divides among the muslims and among the people of different ethnic, cultural and language divide.
. Even today they allow a citizen from a foreign country to become the President of Pakistan and those who migrate do not demonstrate an absolute loyalty for their adopted country.
I am sorry as an observer I have stated this and apologise for hurting your pride in things as you see it. I strongly believe that India as the largest of the two has the potential to become a great nation, but their leaders must give way to the young ones who can handle the new world not dominated by the USA or the western nations but one made up of great Nations not on account of the territory but its people.
Have a nice day.

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

PS
The comments are written by “Rex Minor” and not Pakistan, which he blog prints it.

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@”KeithZ” Indian masquerading as American,

The value of Pakistan through the cold war, soviet-afghan war and post 9/11 is well understood by real Americans. Only an indian agitator would call Al-Qaeda a proxy of Pakistan.

@Satish,

“fear psychosis” is a wonderful sugar-coated term for India’s murder of 100,000+ kashmiris and rape of 9000+ women and girls.

If you think Kashmiris demanding liberation from India are a minority:

I provide you exhibit A:

http://reformistani.wordpress.com/2010/0 2/27/straight-from-the-kashmiris-mouth/

Only an Indian will refer to India as the “guiding light to the world”. Nobody talks like that. Not even real exemplary models i.e.: America, China ,EU, Scandinavian countries etc.

Here is exhibit B: India’s wonderful behavior towards neighbors:

http://reformistani.wordpress.com/2010/0 5/30/pakistanaggressor/

Please stop believing your own hype.

Thanks.

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

@ mirzausman,

With all due respect, nobody gives a damn about the “exhibits” from your reformistani site, which is no different than tons of other hate-mongering, fact-twisting & history-distorting Pakistani propaganda sites floating on the web. You should present these “exhibits” at Pakistani blogs & sites, as I’m sure they will much appreciatated & willingly bought there. You, trying to convince everyone that Pakistan is a true “supporter” of the US is futile in light of your country’s support (at some point or the other) of every terror outfit which is out there to destroy american interests & kill americans and also in light of your “non-state actors” planning attacks on american soil, as we apeak.

@ “fear psychosis” is a wonderful sugar-coated term for India’s murder of 100,000+ kashmiris and rape of 9000+ women and girls”

Kashmir has been discussed quite extensively on this blog by both Indians & Pakistanis. But how about you (or any Pakistani) having the guts to take responsibility of your army’s genocide of millions in East Pakistan in 1971?

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Immortal Sir,

My feelings are eternally injured. While I recover, could you answer the following questions?

1) could you kindly point me to the lies in my post?
2) May I humbly ask who appointed you moderator of this public forum and this particular post about PAKISTAN???
3) Since you have a monopoly on truth, perhaps you could enlighten us with some dubba-dubba-ding-ding about al-qaeda being a proxy of pakistan. I am particularly interested in why my government asked its ‘proxy’ to kill 3,000 of our soldiers , attack our prime minister , president, institutions and inflict a devastating blow to our already weak economy.

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

@ mizausman

My friend, like most Pakistanis, you either seem to suffer from selective amnesia or believe in your own set of facts, manufactured ‘by & for Pakistanis only’. Anyways. let me refresh your memmory in an effort to remove the cobwebs from your brain.

It’s hardly a secret that untill 9/11, your army either bred & nurtured or was in bed with most jihadi terror oufits in the world including Al Quaeda & Taliban as part fo their “startegic depth policy”. They either supported them explicitly with money, weapons, training, recruits, intelligence etc or implictly by renting out your ‘pure land’ as havens & sanctuaries for these groups to wage jihad against the US, west, Israel, India etc.

When 9/11 happened & Richard Armitage threatened to bomb you guys back to the stone age, Mussharraf reluctantly became an unwilling ally in GWOT. Taking advantage of a bufoon in the White House, for 7 years, your slimy army played the double game of running with the hares & hunting with the hounds. It played both sides & continued it’s support for most jihadi outfits while appearing to be an “ally”. Once the US administration woke up to this double game, it again pressurized your army to fight the monsters which it had created & nurtered. Sensing that many of the terror outfits (like the TTP, JeM, JeV etc) have turned against their former masters, your army was compelled to fight them but now the frankenstein monster seems to have grown out of proportion & out of control is out to destroy it’s creator. It’s a classic case of “one’s chickens coming home to roost”. But even today, your army doesen’t seem to have learned any lessons & continues to sheild groups like the Afghan Taliban, Haqqani & Hekmtyar networks, LeT & many others in hopes of keeping their “strategic depth” alive inspite of the fact that your country is rife with radicalism, extremism & intolerance and on the brink of bankruptcy & failure. These are the facts as most non-Pakistanis see them.

Now, will you answer my question about the genocide of 3 million bengalis conducted by your army in East Pakistan in 1971?

(BTW: My screenname is ‘Mortal’ & not ‘Immortal’ and I’ve never claimed to be the moderator of this blog)

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

@Mortal1
You reckon there is a chance of sending several great Indian born muslims from Pakista back to their homes in India? One could start with Pervez Musharaf. They are slowly becoming a liability for the UK, where they have started buying property to reside after their prosecution in Pakistan. This is not uncommon that the home country take back the fugitives.
As a matter of interest why are you concerned with the genocide of Bengalis by the Pakistan military. We all know it that the Pakistan Army was not capable of even killing a fly, otherwise their commander would not have surrendered and not to miss the afternoon tea with his old buddy, the Indian commander. Should#nt the world be now concerned with the kashmiris who are being grilled by the Indian military? Let us be fair.

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@Mortal1
You reckon there is a chance of sending several great Indian born muslims from Pakista back to their homes in India? One could start with Pervez Musharaf. They are slowly becoming a liability for the UK, where they have started buying property to reside after their prosecution in Pakistan. This is not uncommon that the home country take back the fugitives.
As a matter of interest why are you concerned with the genocide of Bengalis by the Pakistan military. We all know it that the Pakistan Army was not capable of even killing a fly, otherwise their commander would not have surrendered and not to miss the afternoon tea with his old buddy, the Indian commander. Should#nt the world be now concerned with the kashmiris who are being grilled by the Indian military? Let us be fair.
PS Richard ARmitage was facing the Indian born soldier and got away with the threat. Let the USA try this weapon in Afghanistan through his so called bulldozer and see if he is able to come out alive. The Pashtoon military Chiefs including straight forward Ayub Khan would have not let the Afro American General or his assistent. In Afghanistan there are no graves for foreigners.

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@Pakistan you said:

“As a matter of interest why are you concerned with the genocide of Bengalis by the Pakistan military. We all know it that the Pakistan Army was not capable of even killing a fly, otherwise their commander would not have surrendered and not to miss the afternoon tea with his old buddy, the Indian commander. Should#nt the world be now concerned with the kashmiris who are being grilled by the Indian military? Let us be fair.”

–>This is why some of you do not deserve to be called human beings, let alone muslims or Pakistani’s. You have the nerve to deny the holocaust?

Your Army had guns, weapons, tanks and organization structure to mass kill unarmed innocent civilians and you claim that even with this, they did not have the ability to harm a fly? go get your brain cleaned out, my friend, this is why you country will continue to reap horrible Karma….Holocaust deniers, deserve nothing, let alone statehood.

There is undeniable and unrefutable proof of the Pak Army genocide, videos of Pak Army soldiers popping Bengali’s in the head with a bullet.

On the issue of Kashmiri’s you troublemaking Pakistani’s have used the issue of religion to create agitational elements into Indian Kashmir and perverted the youth away from progress, education and learning and religiously politicized this agitation like a virus to make trouble in Kashmir. The children being born everyday are unaware of the terrorists your country sent into India in the 80′s after the soviets left Afghanistan. You Pakistani’s kept terrorists employed full time to cross the LOC to create terror cells and agitators and pervert the Islamic Youth in Kashmir with the goal of radicalizing them and making them blind to the fact that they are being used.

That is the truth. You Pakistani’s have brought only suffering, bloodshed, war, suicide jihad, hatred upon the world and your neighbours. I the name of religious politics, nothing constructive or redeeming has come out of Pakistan for 60 years, for mankind.

Kashmir will be fixed, once Afghanistan is done. The U.S. and western powers have plans to fix all of your trouble in the region, including Kashmir. India will not have to lift a finger, we will cross our arms and watch from across the room, as you get slapped back and forth and choked to submission. Brace yourself, it is coming.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

@Pakistan,

On the issue of surrender, go and read the 1917 war history on the internet regarding the 1971 war. Your dufus general Niazi and his mighty band of fools stretched had the grand dream of annexing all of Northern India to Islamicize it and go on a mass genocide campaign, that was the end goal.

These selfish ignorant buffoons grossly miscalculated and extend your unqualified army way beyond its reach, that is why your country surrendered.

India did not have the heart to massacre your 90,000 POW soldiers, as they are Indians, why would we kill our own people, even though they call themselves Pakistani’s?

Grow up and wake up. India has handled your country with kid gloves each time. Each time, we had the ability to totally dismantle your army and erase your borders, if we had wished to do so, India always let you fools go back to your little holes, with your tails between your legs, in big brother fashion.

As Indians, we never had the heart to bring mass devastational killing, war, or huge casualties on Pakistani’s, so let’s be absolutely clear and understood on that issue. India could have chose to unleash the full might of its much larger Army, in 1971 and before.

As I said, you people are Indians, we see no purpose in killing Indians, nothing would be gained from that kind of loss. That is why your POW’s were returned unharmed, in a respectful manner. If it had been the other way around, you Pakistani’s would have butchered the Indian POW’s and performed all sorts of religiously sanctioned atrocities upon them, to show your people how tough you are.

We chose to let you see another day, and each time your foolish Army masters dragged your blind population into further wars, which keep weakening your country. Now the U.S. is here to finish your mess. Once they leave Afghanistan, they are coming for Pakistan. Your western masters are tired of being lied to and the American public is tired of seeing their bilions of dollars washed away into PA pockets, while their soldiers die and American families sacrifice their loved ones to make the world safer from Pakistani born terrorism.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

@Keithz, Pakistan, Umair,

Thank God that the security in the U.S., as sloppy and mis-co-ordinated as it is, having such a large bureaucracy, it still functions 99 % of the time.

As you have all heard the security officials in the U.S. say in the wake of the latest U.S. Times Square attack, it is not a matter of if and when the next terror attack originates from Pakistani’ soil.

Billions of dollars of U.S. taxpayers money sent into Pakistani Army pockets, and still there are terrorist training camps there, plotting day and night to harm Americans.

If another attack happens on U.S. soil, you can expect the security situation and stance towards Pakistan to take a 180 degree turn. You can expect the U.S. fifth fleet getting ready and geared up to surgically pound any ground they wish to eliminate threats based on actionable intelligence. At that point you can expect delicate balance of law and order to descend into utter chaos in Pakistan. Every problem there will come out into the open and become uncontainable. That is a a very bleak scenario and let’s hope it never happens to come to that.

We hope that Pakistani’s are sincere in giving the U.S. taxpayers their money’s worth as well as some progress while they sacrifice their loved ones in Afghanistan.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

@ “You reckon there is a chance of sending several great Indian born muslims from Pakista back to their homes in India? One could start with Pervez Musharaf”
Posted by pakistan

Your attempts at re-writing history are becoming more absurd by the day. If you want to send Pervez Musharraf back to India since he was born in India, how about sending the whole of Pakistan back to India since it was also born out of India? And while we’re at it, lets just re-draw the world map!
Pervez Musharraf, AQ Khan, Zia ul Haq etc were born in India but they were injected with an anti-India virus, the minute they moved to Pakistan & are/were as or more un-Indian as any other Pakistani.

@”As a matter of interest why are you concerned with the genocide of Bengalis by the Pakistan military.”

I think G-W has said pretty much everything I’d like to say on that so I’ll avoid the redundancy.

@”Let the USA try this weapon in Afghanistan through his so called bulldozer and see if he is able to come out alive.”

Did you sleep through the period immediately after 9/11 buddy? The US did indeed threaten the Afghan commanders (Taliban at the time) to hand over Bin Laden or be bombed (although, not back to the stone ages since Afghanistan hardly ever got out of the stone ages) & when they failed to comply, Afghanistan was ineed bombed the hell out of.
Also, your confidence & praise of the “pustoon warriors” is quite misplaced & exaggerated. Yes they are good fighters but it has a lot to do with the fact that they haven’t done anything else all their lives & that’s all they have inherited from their ancestors. Besides that, they lag behind pretty much everyone else in every area of human development, be it education, social or economic progress.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

@Immortal
You were not able refute factual statements in my post; so fail.
Nothing in your angry humorous rant proved the proxy allegation; so fail.

@G-W
You can call us subhuman, butchers, dufus, bufoons, ignorant, unqualified but don’t you EVER call me an Indian! :)

“we had the ability to totally dismantle your army and erase your borders”

1948 First Kashmiri War (Win) – Pakistan captured 85,793 km² of “Indian” territory of Kashmir now called AZAD kashmir on both sides of the LOC.

1965 Rann of Kutch Battle (Win) – It is generally understood by all parties that Pakistan won this battle.

1965 Second Kashmiri War (Draw) – Pakistan captured more enemy territory in terms of area. India captured more fertile/valuable territory. Pakistan had more kills enemy & enemy craft. Pakistan had some tactical victories. However, India denied Pakistan its ultimate objective. Both sides were exhausted and depleted by the end of the war.

1971 Bengali War of Independence (Loss) – Outnumbered, outgunned, after months of heroic resistance by Bengalis against a shamefully ruthless Pakistani army, India was able to walk into Dhaka within 13 days . Most of credit should be given to the bloody & heroic struggle of the Bengalis as West Pakistani politicians and the army simply deserved to be humiliated for their immoral discrimination against Bengalis. Pakistan lost prestige in the Islamic world and its link in Southeast Asia.

1982 Siachen War (Loss) – Indian invasion of Pakistani territory, Pakistan unable to dislodge Indian Army from strategic higher ground.

2002 Kargil War (Loss) – 30,000 Indians inflicted more damage to the 5000 mostly “irregular” Pakistanis soldiers. India was able to successfully remove Pakistanis from Indian territory.

It is important to note the aftermath of the 1971 war.
Following the victory, India and Bangladesh signed a 25 year friendship treaty. It was not renewed upon expiry.
Bangladesh declined to renegotiate or renew the treaty when it was for expiry in 1997.
Mujib’s death led to the establishment of diplomatic relations with Pakistan and other nations that had opposed the creation of Bangladesh, such as Saudi Arabia and the People’s Republic of China.[9] Bangladesh was criticised for allowing bases on its territory for anti-India secessionist groups such as the United Liberation Front of Assam (ULFA), and Bangladeshi intelligence agencies were suspected of maintaining links with Pakistan’s intelligence agencies.[10][11][12] Bangladesh in turn alleged that India was supporting the Shanti Bahini insurgency in the Chittagong Hill Tracts. Today, Bangladesh is closer to Pakistan than India. We Pakistani People reject the behavior of our politicians and generals in the mistreatment of our brothers in Bangladesh. We condemn Yahya Khan and Zulfikar Ali Bhutto for their behavior towards our brother country. God bless Bangladesh.

1761 Panipat III – Combined forces of Pushtuns & Balochis (modern day pakistan) kick the poo out of Maratha army Northern India falls.

The Second Battle of Tarain – Muhammad Ghori defeats Prithviraj Chauhan.

1001: Mahmud Ghazni defeats the Hindu Shahi king Jayapala

1021: Mahmud Ghazni defeats Tarnochalpal

Mahmud conquers Gujarat
Mahmud conquers Nagarkot
Mahmud conquers Thanesar
Mahmud conquers Gwalior
Mahmud conquers Ujjain
Mahmud defeats Chandellas of Khujarah
Mahmud defeats the Pratiharas of Kanauj
1527 Battle of Khanwa Babar defeats Rana Sanga Rajput confederates and takes Northern India

Regards.

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

For a full list of India’s glorious victories, please visit exhibit C

http://reformistani.wordpress.com/2010/0 4/23/indian-perception-people-of-pakista n-defeated-in-every-warbattle/

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

@mirzausman
I did not click on your link…It is amusing..and understandable how you are coping with the reality of being a “pakistani” in the year 2010….the world over “pakistan” means two things terrorists and begging…
fantasize yourself you are the progeny of muslim invaders…the odds are more likely you are ………..

LOL!

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive

@mirzausman:

Oh Boy! Can one be more desperate than you who is thumping his chest over 11-19th Century Mughal glory?

Then you are extending this to tell us that like Mughals, Pakistan had upper hand over India in all wars.

If all this gives you goodnight sleep, I am happy. But get done with it and move your blog energy to better things to do. Reason is India of today and Pakistan of today are the facts. The facts are staring in your face. Your all these chronology of events/wars can be argued at length but that is a subject of another blog. Moreover, all that history does not convince a thinking person that Pakistan has screwed itself really bad since its creation while its literate population like you is hell bent upon negative thinking. Pakistan need to stop this propaganda websites and put energy into positive steps. Anyone can tell where India stands and where Pakistan does. You can close your eyes but that does not take away the fact that Pakistan is badly screwed up. Singing songs of Mughal glory will not fix your problems.

If you have not already, add this to you long list of wars. In Sikh Kingdom under Ranjeet Singh (nearly 50yrs), all religions HIndus/Sikhs/Muslims were part of Sikh Army. He could have used myopic thinking and said screw these Muslims and let me pick Hindu/Sikhs for Army against Brits. he did not. He was fighting not only Brits at that time but also Afghans. :-)

One of my Bihari friends give me a reason why Bihar cannot grow like other states like Punjab or many other states. He says that Punjabis [ Indian :-)] work hard and move with time and adjust accordingly, Biharis tend to sing songs of ancient history (like you do about Mughal glory) when Bihar was ahead of other regions in many areas. It is historically important place. It is nice opium and one can get happily stoned but once it wears off, you got to face the truth. You need to face the truth that Pakistan is screwed up and much of credit goes to Islamabad, not Delhi, DC or Jerusalem.

___________________________

Rexminor: Just when I was going to suggest to the posters that you do not claim to be a Pakistani and should not be labeled thus, you have clearly shown that you are one.

I hope this goes through.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive

“Oh Boy! Can one be more desperate than you who is thumping his chest over 11-19th Century Mughal glory? ”

No less desperate that your countrymen **initiating** a conversation about bharat’s historic martial credentials (and you call us delusional!)

No less desperate than your countrymen assuming the heroics of bangladeshis.

I did not extend historic posterior-kickings to post 1947 wars. I pointed out we lost 3 arguably 4 wars. so fail.

As for the other ranjit/bihari/jerusalem etc…. don’t care.

Regards.

Here we see seeker of truth seeking truth:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3633/3580 935498_73ab47e791.jpg

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

“Oh Boy! Can one be more desperate than you who is thumping his chest over 11-19th Century Mughal glory? ”
If all this gives you goodnight sleep, I am happy.

>>> I sleep well at night. I suspect 10 centuries of subjugation can’t be washed away as easily as you would have us believe. :)

Sweet Dreams.

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

mirzausman,

I never asked you to certify my statements or expected you to accept them since doing so would eaquate to expecting a delusional schizophrenic to accept his misdeeds, which is always an excercise in futility. You & your bretheren may very well continue living in denial & believing your hallucinations, distorted history & altered facts. Nobody really cares because at the end of the day, you are fooling & hurting no one but yourselves. Also, in typical Pakistani fashion, continue to ignore the genocide of 3 million benaglis by your cowardly army.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

@”1761 Panipat III – Combined forces of Pushtuns & Balochis (modern day pakistan) kick the poo out of Maratha army Northern India falls. The Second Battle of Tarain – Muhammad Ghori defeats Prithviraj Chauhan.”

ROFL. So, since you had to balance all your “losses” and coudn’t find any wins of your own, you had to dig into the 1100s to eek out some “wins” by Mahmud Ghazni & Ghori thump on his chest? Lol! And may I ask, what gives Pakistanis like you, the right to thump their chests on a those Persian invaders? It’s quite comedic when ‘identity challanged’ Pakistanis like you claim persian, arabian & turkish ancestries, when in most likelyhood, your ancestors were Indian hindus, who converted to Islam for fear of being persecuted by barbarians like Ghazni & Ghauri, who’s “wins” you are boasting of, here.
And even if someone was to by your twisted theory of Pakistanis being the descendants of Mughals, who won wars centuries ago in what is now India, Pakistan & Afghanistan, what does that have anything to do with today? Wake up from your slumber, open your eyes & you will see that in 2010, your country is Failed & bankrupt State which is only known in the world for it’s export of terrorism & it’s begging appetite wheras India is regarded by the world (including Islamic nations) as a rising economic power & respected globally. These are the facts as they exist today, whether Pakistanis like you accept them or not.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

What I find quite disturbing by some Pakistani’s is their sense of pride of Islamic occupation of the Indian subcontinent.

I think if one could rewind the tapes, so to speak and if they could watch in horror as their hindu ancestors were butchered, and subjugated to extremely cruel treatment and genocide, and converted by the sword, that they would not be able to stand and say the same thing that they have been taught.

Cruelty begets cruelty. Once the U.S. sets foot on Pakistani soil, perhaps some of those Pakistani’s will know how their Hindu ancestors felt, when persian or arabic looters came to destroy their lives and persecute them.

I don’t believe the western empires will generate an Akhbar the Great for Pakistani’s, as Akbar was gift given by God to reprieve some of the cruelty on Hindus.

I have a feeling that sometimes humans only learn when they lose everything and all hope, that is when they learn and become wise. Perhaps that is the situation with Pakistan, time will tell.

At the end of the day, I have a feeling, it will be India to come to the rescue aid of the Pakistani’s, after they plead with India, after things go wrong there, nobody else will come to help Pakistani’s, not China, not anybody, only Indians.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

@ G-W: “Cruelty begets cruelty. Once the U.S. sets foot on Pakistani soil, perhaps some of those Pakistani’s will know how their Hindu ancestors felt, when persian or arabic looters came to destroy their lives and persecute them.”

Pakistanis like mirzausman will certainly learn their lesson & the day isn’t too far either but those lessons won’t be taught by the US, western or Indian forces but by the very same Islamic extremist barbarians, whose horns many of these Pakistanis have become accustomed to toot. History will repeat itself in Pakistan, once it is talibanized. Only this time, it will be muslims persecuting muslims & we are already seeing the begining. How ironic, indeed!

@ “At the end of the day, I have a feeling, it will be India to come to the rescue aid of the Pakistani’s, after they plead with India, after things go wrong there, nobody else will come to help Pakistani’s, not China, not anybody, only Indians”

As well intentioned a thought that is, I don’t see that happening untill the military establishment is in charge in Pakistan. Those folks have enough false pride & hatred for India, to make sure that Pakistan chokes to death before it asks India for any help. The civilian Govt is a different story but I doubt they would ever be able to overrule the army.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

@G W
I assume you do not want my comments to your rant. People like you must believe that this forum is for propaganda purpose or spreading venom to your assumed opponents. I am not from Pakistan not have any affiliation with your apparent adopted land. I wonder about the source of your unnecessary aggression towards others.
Rex Ninor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@G W
I assume you do not want my comments to your rant. People like you must believe that this forum is for propaganda purpose or spreading venom to your assumed opponents. I am not from Pakistan not have any affiliation with your apparent adopted land. I wonder about the source of your unnecessary aggression towards others.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

mirzausman:

@I sleep well at night. I suspect 10 centuries of subjugation can’t be washed away as easily as you would have us believe. :)

—–First I admire you of accepting that Pakistan lost wars. But are you finding solace in Mughal glory for that?

Also by doing so, are you not insulting your Hindu ancestors who were converted to Islam (much like how Sikhs and Hindus are getting converted to Islam in Pakistan)?

There is nothing worse than not knowing ones roots. But that is not your fault. Your fault is you think your ancestors came on horses and you are the direct pure lineage of that martial brigade. Hmmmm…..quite an assumption that one!

Perhaps you and all those who want to Sing songs of Mughal glory should get their genotyping done. With human genome sequenced and the availability of cheaper new technology, you can get it done now and become eligible to sing songs of Mughal glory.

My point is one will be cautious in stating something that attacks one’s own roots. Isn;t it?

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive

@ “Perhaps you and all those who want to Sing songs of Mughal glory should get their genotyping done” Posted by RajeevK

I would imagine that mmany of the genotyping centers in Pakistan would be mandatorily giving ‘hangig ropes’ as parting gifts to their clients since many of them, like ‘mirzausman’ would be using them once the reults are in :)

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

@ mirzausman

Somehow, I had missed your statement that Pakistanis shouldn’t be called as ‘Indians’. Can you PLEASE tell that to your country-men living here in the US & west, who are dumping their Pakistani identity in a rush & busy posing as ‘Indians’ in an effort to gain some respect, which is hard to come by as a Pakistani these days, in light of the extra cirricular activities of your “non-state actors” across the world.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

@pakistan,

What propaganda have I stated, have I stated anything that is factually untrue? I don’t need to spread propaganda, the fact that every other day a Pakistani’ trained terrorist is caught, is enough for anybody to point fingers at Pakistan on an almost weekly or monthly basis.

I just get irate when I see Pakistani’s crying foul for Kashmiri muslims, when Pakistani’s in 1971, genocided the poor Bengali’s, minorities are constitutionally and legally lower on the ladder than Sunni’s. That kind of injustice and constitutionally deliberate disproportional treatment of others is racist with the intent to kill off minorities over time and that really makes my blood boil.

If you see my standing up to ignorance as kind of venom, so be it.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

>> I shall try to respond to all of your queries.

expected you to accept them since doing so would eaquate to expecting a delusional schizophrenic to accept his misdeeds, which is always an excercise in futility.

>> Expect to accept to eaquate (sic) to expecting to accept misdeeds. Why don’t you put your thoughts together and get back to us. You did not prove Al qaeda is a pakistani proxy. so fail.

since you had to balance all your “losses” and coudn’t find any wins of your own,

>> Pay attention. Go back, Read.

you had to dig into the 1100s to eek out some “wins” by Mahmud Ghazni & Ghori thump on his chest? Lol!

>> Is thumping your chest for Bangladeshi heroism any different?

And may I ask, what gives Pakistanis like you, the right to thump their chests on a those Persian invaders?

>> No, no. You are thinking of Nadir Shah of Persia. I know, So many conquerors, it can be a bit confusing. I was referring to Pushtun and Balochi man-handling the Marathas — It doesn’t get any more indigenous to Pakistan than that. You can come visit a couple Baluchi & Pashtun brothers in my mohallah. If you want I can “reacquaint” you. :)

It’s quite comedic when ‘identity challanged’ Pakistanis like you claim persian, arabian & turkish ancestries,

>> I think you have some sort of attention-span dysfunction. I did not claim p/a/t ancestry. That’s what you imagined I said because you have been indoctrinated to believe this.

Pakistanis being the descendants of Mughals, who won wars centuries ago in what is now India, Pakistan & Afghanistan, what does that have anything to do with today?

>> I was not aware that there was a rule on this forum that restricts discussion to 1971-2010. I will make a mental note of this.

Wake up from your slumber, open your eyes & you will see that in 2010, your country is Failed & bankrupt State which is only known in the world for it’s export of terrorism

>> I think you are forgetting our other exports: Shaan Masala, Karachi Gosht, Burfi, Biriyani & Evil. Moderator, please note this discrepancy.

& it’s begging appetite

>> Begging Statistics
AID TO INDIA: 168.3 Billion USD
AID TO PAKSITAN: 59.9 Billion USD
Source: OECD
My apologies to OECD. you along with Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch will forever be branded as “ISI propaganda”.

wheras India is regarded by the world (including Islamic nations) as a rising economic power & respected globally.

>> No, actually they think 3 mega technology parks, call-center coolies surrounded by a massive slum the size of 4 large sub-saharan countries. They think slumdog millionaire, city of joy & temple of doom plus open public defecation. Please note that I disagree with this perception. I thought City of Joy was too upbeat and glamorous.

These are the facts as they exist today, whether Pakistanis like you accept them or not.

>> We accept baba, we accept. 1.3 billion people = Economy smaller than Italy. If the Chinese bragged 1/10th as much as you, the internet would run out of disk space.

I think if one could rewind the tapes, so to speak and if they could watch in horror as their hindu ancestors were butchered, and subjugated to extremely cruel treatment and genocide, and converted by the sword,

>> How does one convert by sword after a genocide? I am troubled by the sequence of your logic.

that they would not be able to stand and say the same thing that they have been taught.

>> Let’s entertain your theory for the purpose of humor.

1. If Islam was so inherently wicked that it required unmatched violence to spread its message, why did Hindu Indonesia, Malaysia accept islam without a maurauding army of muslim ogres?

2. If Islam was so hell-bent on liquidating hindus, why did it pass laws to stop the practice of suttee and caste system? why not let the women kill themselves? why fight for equality for sudras? How effective was this genocide that resulted in the world’s most densely populated nation?

3. No race has been as battered for so long, so viciously and so consistently as the Jews. The catholic inquisition has no match in its horrific suppression of judaism. Yet Jews managed to keep their traditions. Why is it that upon 1000 years of reflection, the Muslims of South Asia have not returned to Hinduism or Buddhism? Indeed, Why does it continue to grow to this day?

I have a feeling that sometimes humans only learn when they lose everything and all hope, that is when they learn and become wise. Perhaps that is the situation with Pakistan, time will tell. At the end of the day, I have a feeling, it will be India to come to the rescue aid of the Pakistani’s, after they plead with India, after things go wrong there, nobody else will come to help Pakistani’s, not China, not anybody, only Indians.

>> This is what I love about you pretentious, self-righteous Indians. So unashamedly self-adulating that I find it almost.. adorable. “Pakistan come to plead to us and then we help” — classic. Read your last 20 posts, you celebrate when we bleed, you rejoice when we suffer.

Pakistanis like mirzausman will certainly learn their lesson & the day isn’t too far either

>> Could you give me a timeline? I want to plan my holidays around the cataclysm.

History will repeat itself in Pakistan, once it is talibanized.

>> So India will get conquered again? I don’t quite follow.

Only this time, it will be muslims persecuting muslims & we are already seeing the begining. How ironic, indeed!

>> Yes how deliciously ironic indeed… ooh I think I just leaked some bodily fluids just at the thought of Pakistan imploding.

@G W
I assume you do not want my comments to your rant. People like you must believe that this forum is for propaganda purpose or spreading venom to your assumed opponents. I am not from Pakistan not have any affiliation with your apparent adopted land. I wonder about the source of your unnecessary aggression towards others.
Rex Minor

>> Rex, don’t be disheartened. you are talking to a people that blame the ISI every time there is an unexpected pregnancy.

—–First I admire you of accepting that Pakistan lost wars.

>> I am sure this was the only needle in a haystack of “fact-distortions”.

But are you finding solace in Mughal glory for that?

>> Not so much solace as dismay at man’s inherently violent nature. Not claiming Mughals so much as the Ghauris, Durranis, Suris, Lodhis, Ghazni etc. Do I have your permission?

Also by doing so, are you not insulting your Hindu ancestors who were converted to Islam ?

>> My Hindu/Buddhist/Pagan/Zoroastarian ancestors converted for reasons other than your preferred national narrative.

There is nothing worse than not knowing ones roots. But that is not your fault. Your fault is you think your ancestors came on horses and you are the direct pure lineage of that martial brigade.

>> There is more than just a religious aspect to our rivalry. Is it a nationalistic rivalry. We are ALL descendants of apes. Why don’t you abandon hinduism and start throwng feces at each other?

Hmmmm…..quite an assumption that one! Perhaps you and all those who want to Sing songs of Mughal glory should get their genotyping done. With human genome sequenced and the availability of cheaper new technology, you can get it done now and become eligible to sing songs of Mughal glory.

>> So the NWFP will be proven to be the same as Tamils? Balochis will be proven to be no longer from the Iranian plateau? Descendents of Arabs and Jews in India are no longer semitic? Parsis are no long Persian? Tamils are no longer Dravidian? This is a hang-up more for Indians than Pakistanis. I think this crippling history weighs heavily on you and dominates your hostile attitudes towards modern-Pakistan. Personally, I take great pride in my South Asian heritage. I am the inheritor of the IVC, the buddhist gandhara civilization. I have no issues with hindu ancestry. Our prophet’s family was pagan. Our moral compass and national poet’s grandparents were brahmin Hindus. Our beautiful national anthem was written by a hindu in farsi. Our parliament has hindus. Please stop insulting hindus.
Ask yourself this, Why does Muhammad Ali, a black american take pride in Cordoba/Andalusia of a millenium ago? Why do Turks take pride in Muhammad Ali a retired former world champion from a different country thousands of miles away? If tomorrow a Sudra accepts Islam, he is AS Muslim as the direct descendant of the prophet. That’s the beauty of Islam that you Islam-haters will never quite comprehend.

My point is one will be cautious in stating something that attacks one’s own roots. Isn;t it?

>> Budhism was dominant in Pakistan area (if memory serves) from 500 Bc to 500 Ad, Islam was introduced in 700 AD, it spread for the various reasons:

1. Conversions occurred for non-religious reasons of pragmatism and patronage such as social mobility among the Muslim ruling elite or for relief from taxes
2. Conversion was a result of the actions of Sufi saints and involved a genuine change of heart
3. Conversion came from majority Buddhists and the en masse conversions of lower castes for social liberation and as a rejection of oppressive existent Hindu caste strictures.
4. Was a combination, initially made under duress or opportunism followed by a genuine change of heart
5. As a socio-cultural process of diffusion and integration over an extended period of time into the sphere of the dominant Muslim civilization and global polity at large.
6. Conversion was a result of Islam’s inspirational message that continues to grow to this day.

Somehow, I had missed your statement that Pakistanis shouldn’t be called as ‘Indians’.

>> Face it. You are slow and the moment has passed. Even after two days of reflection, your rebuttal still comes off concocted, stale and weak. I heard Indian students in Australia are passing themselves off as Pakistanis.

Final Thought:
I wish no insult to decent indians or hindus — These responses are for obsessed pakistan-haters.

Regards,

http://reformistani.wordpress.com

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

What propaganda have I stated, have I stated anything that is factually untrue

>> you stated Al-Qaeda is a proxy of the Pakistani government. This is factually untrue.

With Love,
Mirza

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

Mirza

@Do I have your permission?
–Son! what’s the point if you are not going to listen to me? you are independent since last 63yrs and you may do whatever.

I love your shifty logic which you use to suit your taste!!!

@I suspect 10 centuries of subjugation can’t be washed away as easily as you would have us believe. :)”

@My Hindu/Buddhist/Pagan/Zoroastarian ancestors converted for reasons other than your preferred national narrative.
:-) so you know for certain the reason of conversion. Is it the chest-thumping “subjugation of Indians” or is it one of those subjugation,,,followed by conversion,,,,followed by change of heart,,,,many centuries later,,,,to a point where that lineage has “Mirza” who now claims subjugation as some sort of victory and feels happy about it. Note first quote of yours “us”. How comical!

@How does one convert by sword after a genocide? I am troubled by the sequence of your logic.”
–are u trying to get mileage out of words. I tell u how. Invaders kill and reign terror—”subjugation” and For a vulnerable and what a better way than to convert and join the invaders than be invaded. Like your ancestors did.

@1. Conversions occurred for non-religious reasons of pragmatism and patronage such as social mobility among the Muslim ruling elite or for relief from taxes”
—you mean much like what Sikhs in Pakistan would do for the fear of sword (err bullet) and Jaziya (taxes). Is this is pragmatism by your logic. Clapping!

>> There is more than just a religious aspect to our rivalry. Is it a nationalistic rivalry. We are ALL descendants of apes. Why don’t you abandon hinduism and start throwng feces at each other?

—-I have no idea what you are blabbering.
@”feces”. This one takes the cake. is this what you were taught in your school.well a report from Pakistan says so. And yes another assumption that I am a Hindu.

@So the NWFP will be proven to be the same as Tamils? Balochis will be proven to be no longer from the Iranian plateau? Descendents of Arabs and Jews in India are no longer semitic? Parsis are no long Persian? Tamils are no longer Dravidian? This is a hang-up more for Indians than Pakistanis. I think this crippling history weighs heavily on you and dominates your hostile attitudes towards modern-Pakistan.”
–Perhaps you seriously missed the point. No need to do all this. Let people have their identity,,,,changed overtime or remained original does not matter. Just live your life and let other live theirs. The day you dig history and make certain assumptions and false claims, it will get dirty like it is happening now.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive

The 17th century thinker, theologist and philosapher Descartes said that since people do not complain about the lack of commonsence, proves that the God all mighty has given this ability to the whole humanity. In my view he ignored the fact that people having not sufficient commonsence would not easily detect or admit this shortcoming. I do not mean to belittle anyone’s ability to think, but to equate an american citizen alleged crime in the USA to his visit to his former country Pakistan and getting PHD in explosives can only be imagined by a person or a group of people having the lowest level of commonsense. More logical would be to call him a human and then blaming the entire Humanity for alleged crime. What a sad state of affairs in the USA, they should check the identity of the people involved in the oil company who have dug a hole which is likely to prove more destructive for North America, than the more destructive than the few minutes inconvenience for the NY traffic. The security people from Israel to the USA are going crackers. It is the fear which paralysis the countries and people.
Gentlemen, there is no need to throw mud at each other quoting historical events, most of history is usually not very accurate, but follow the current affairs where handful of talibans have engaged the so called powerful countries with their marines who are bogged down and are struggling to avoid the humiliation of the former Soviet Union. Have a nice day
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

Mirza,

@ “Why don’t you put your thoughts togethe and get back to us. You did not prove Al qaeda is a pakistani proxy”

What I meant, would be clear to anyone with an average IQ & moderate understanding of the english language but I guess you get confused with similar sounding words in the same sentence. I’ll try to keep it simple for you next time, my apologies!

Al Qaeda-Pakistani connection: As per the 9/11 review commitee, ISI transferred over $100,000 to Al Qaeda operative & ring leader of 9/11 Mohammad Atta in the weeks & months leading upto 9/11, which he used to pay for flying lessons & living expenses.

http://911review.org/Sept11Wiki/Atta-Isi .shtml

@”You can come visit a couple Baluchi & Pashtun brothers in my mohallah. If you want I can “reacquaint” you”

Actually, I’ve come across & known quite a few of your Baluchi & Pashtun “brothers” as well & I can’t really quote the expletive laden language they use in relation to Pakistan, on this blog. At a time when Baluchis & Pashtuns can’t wait to be disassociated from Pakistan, your comment seems quite comical.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

@”It doesn’t get any more indigenous to Pakistan than that”

Wrong about that one too. Baluchis & Pashtuns form less than 20% os Pakistan’s population.

@”I think you are forgetting our other exports: Shaan Masala, Karachi Gosht, Burfi, Biriyani”

Read my comment again. The operative phrase there is “known for”.

@”We accept baba, we accept. 1.3 billion people = Economy smaller than Italy”

Country GDP- Purchasing Power Parity (2009) : 1. USA – 14,260,000, 2. China – 8,789,000, 3. Japan – 4,137,000, India – 3,560,000, Germany – 2,811,000

(India expected to overatake Japan by 2012)
Population (2010) – 1.18 bln, so you’re off by just 120 mln

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cou ntries_by_GDP_(PPP)

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

@”If the Chinese bragged 1/10th as much as you, the internet would run out of disk space”

For bravery, you thump on the chests of foreign invaders, for economy you thump on the chests of the chinese. Do you guys have any achievements of your own to speak of, so that for once, you can thump your own chests? Oh, I forgot, you are climbing up the “Failed State Index” quite rapidly. You could be # 1 in a couple of yrs & thump your chests in front of Somalia & Sudan. Good luck!

@”So India will get conquered again? I don’t quite follow”

I’m sorry, I forgot you need to be explained things thoroughy. You probably just forgot that Pakistan was once, a part of India.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

@ they think 3 mega technology parks, call-center coolies surrounded by a massive slum”

Is that why India is among the top 3 destinations for foreign investment & amongst the top 5 in tourism growth, gobally?
Is that why S & P and Goldman Sachs rate India’s economy, along with China’s, as the best in the world & most analysts expect it to be a mojor global power by 2020-2025?
Is that why 7 Indian companies are amongst 50 of the world’s fastest growing companies, as per forbes?

Actaully the perception which you describe above is something which is resereved exclusively “for Pakisanis only”. Given that your own failed country resembles a pathetic sh**t-hole, I understand that it helps you guys sleep better at night. So keep dreaming & my sympathies!
@”Face it. You are slow and the moment has passed. Even after two days of reflection, your rebuttal still comes off concocted”

Gosh, did I miss the deadline? Next time please leave me a note about the cut-off time & date, so that I can put my life on hold & submit my response to your nonsense, in good time. Also, I’m really crushed that you find my rebuttal weak!
BTW, You still haven’t responded about the genocide of Bengalis by your army, so a big fat FAIL!

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Do you guys have any achievements of your own to speak of, so that for once, you can thump your own chests?

>> Yes one important achievement: Being the only small country in South Asia to check Bharat’s hegemony dead in its track. Given the disparity in size, this is no minor task. The second feat: Surviving against all odds. We have survived – even if you hate us – you must appreciate this fact.

It is not part of the Pakistani character to self-congratulate and self-promote. we don’t run to the internet to post the latest 5 rupee increase in per capita income. It’s just not part of our nature. However if you insist, here are some humble facts and accomplishments:

* World’s 6th largest Nation – 165.8 Million Population
* World’s third largest English Speaking Nation
* World’s 5th largest democracy
* One of the World’s fastest growing economy despite a one in 100 century eartqhquakes that destroyed an entire province/state
* 6th largest standing armed forces – 0.7 Million strong
* 300 dailies, 400 weeklies and 700 periodicals (circul. of 10 million)
* GDP $128.83 Billion. (GDP rate: 7%)
* 7th largest pool of scientists and engineers in the World.

* Pakistan – The Legacy of Majestic Mughal Empire
* Pakistan – The Land of the Oldest Civilization – Indus Valley
* Pakistan – The Land of the Oldest City of the World – Moenjodaro

* Pakistan – The Roof of the World, Five out of 14 highest peaks are in Pakistan (K-2, Nanga Parbat, Gesherbrum I & II, Broad Peak,
* Disteghil Sar, Rakapushi, Kanjut Sar, Tirich Mir, Masherbrum)
* Pakistan – Some of the longest glaciers outside polar region are in Pakistan
* Pakistan – The Largest Salt Deposits – Khewra Mines
* Pakistan – One of the Largest reserves of Natural Gas
* One of the largest Bird Sanctuaries in the World – Haleji Lake
* World-class recognition in Textile, IT, Engineering Services, Automobile Parts
* Road on the top of the world – Karakoram Highway (16,000 feet)
* World’s one of the largest reserves of Chromium Ore

* Pakistan – The largest explored reserves of Coal at Thar.
* Pakistan – Agha Khan University, Karachi has recently been
* declared as 2nd best residence medical university of theworld
* Pakistan – World’s 9th Biggest Produced of Cotton
* Pakistan – Largest network of water distribution canals in the world.
* Pakistan – Third Largest Producer of Milk
* Pakistan – Fifth Largest Producer of Dates
* Pakistan World Champion in Cricket, Hockey, Squash, Wrestling, Snooker

* 6th largest standing armed forces – 0.7 Million strong
* Established Nuclear Power
* JF17 Thunder (equivalent to F16) completely built in Pakistan and being exported
* AGOSTA 90b submarines – completely built in Pakistan
* Al-Khalid Tank, completely built in Pakistan and having better standards than other modern tanks from the developing countries.
* Indigenously Developed Nuclear Weapon Carrying Missiles
* Complete Aircraft Rebuilding Complex in Kamra
* Indigenous Manufacturing of Pilot less Aircraft, “Uqaab”

* 80 Million Cell phone Users
* Karachi Stock Exchange was the world’s best performing
* stock market in 2005 & 2006 with a market capitalization of over 45 billion dollars.
* The availability of natural gas in 60% of house-holds via net-work of pipes
* Largest net-work of man-made irrigation water-canals in the world
* Global Manpower – almost in every country
* World’s Biggest Earth-filled Dam – Tarbela Dam

* Five of the world’s major Automobile makers are obtaining components from Pakistan companies
* This business fetched Pakistan $0.25 Billion in 2004, and will reach $2 Billion by 2010.
* New emerging industries areas include, Mechatronics, Bio-Technology,
* Clinical Research and Pharmaceuticals.
* Carrier Air Conditioning Co, the American giant for Air Conditioning
* equipment is to set-up Research and Development Center in Pakistan
* Pakistan revenues from Information Technology Industry will reach $ 5
* billion in the year 2010.
* Many American companies have shown interest in opening software
* design Centers in Pakistan.
* Pakistan is one of the world’s largest exporter of textiles and related products such as yarn
* and cotton.
* Garment exports are expected to increase from the current level of $ 1.5 billion to $ 5 billion by 2010.
* Pakistan is one of the world’s largest Jewellery and precious gems exporter in the world, its exports were worth $ 48 Million in 2007.
* About 4 out of 10 precious stones sold anywhere in the world, pass through Pakistan.
* Mobile phones are growing by about 1.0Million a month. Long distance rates are down by two-thirds in five years and by 80% for data transmission
* Many US and European Giants Chains sources $ 0.5 Billion worth of goods from Pakistan –
* Quarter of their apparel. It is expected to increase to $ 2 Billion in the next couple of years.
* The country’s foreign exchange reserves stand at an all-time high of $16 Billion.
* Export of Engineering goods – 282 Million at the end of 2007

* Pakistan is among Seven countries that launch their own satellites .
* Pakistan’s PAKSAT is among the world’s largest domestic satellite communication
* systems.
* Pakistan is among only few countries that have ADVANCED SPACE PROGRAM.
* All of its satellites were indigenously manufactured.
* Pakistan is one of the countries which intends to put its national Spacecraft in Space.
* Pakistan is among the few countries in the World that have built its own Nuclear
* Power Station by its own indigenous technology.
* Pakistan is among the few countries in the World that have built its own Training
* Aircraft (Mashaq) by its own indigenous technology.
* It has also prepaid millions owed to the World Bank and Asian Development Bank.
* Pakistan is providing aid to 7 countries, writing-off their debt including Bosnia (20
* Million US$).

* The Pakistani pharmaceutical industry at $ 1.4 billion and growing
* at 8% annually, is the 8th largest pharmaceutical industry in the
* world, and is expected to be worth $2.0 billion by 2010.
* Its exports are over $0.75 billion. Pakistan is among the top ten bulk
* drug makers and at home, the local industry has edged out the Multi-
* National companies.
* Trade of medicinal plants has crossed $ 500M already.
* There are 40 biotechnology companies in Pakistan, involved in the
* development and manufacture of genomic drugs, whose business is
* growing exponentially.

Pakistan: Foreign Multi-National Companies

* Top 5 American employers of Pakistanis:
* General Electric: : 2,600 employees
* Hewlett-Packard : 1,200 employees
* IBM : 2,500 employees
* American Express : 1,500 employees
* Dell : 2,200 employees
* It is estimated that there are 80,000 IT professionals in
* Pakistan as against 120,000 in Silicon Valley.

Pakistan: Technology Power

* Over 50 Foreign Companies have plan to set up R&D facilities in Pakistan
* in the past five years. These include GE, Bell Labs, Du Pont, Daimler
* Chrysler, Eli Lilly, Intel, Monsanto, Texas Instruments, Caterpillar, Cummins,
* GM, Microsoft and IBM.
* Pakistan’s telecom infrastructure between Karachi, Lahore and New York,
* provides one of the largest bandwidth capacity in the world.
* With more than 50 universities, 15 research institutions and 20 highereducation
* institutes, Pakistan produces 20,000 engineering graduates
* and another 10,000 technically trained graduates every year.
* Besides, another 0.1 million other graduates qualify out in Pakistan annually.
* NED, UET- Lahore, NUST, GIK IST, LUMS, and FAST are among
* the top universities from where many of the world’s biggest consulting
* firms hire most.

Pakistani Overseas Work Force – 7.5 Million

* United States of America 1.5 million
* United Kingdom and Ireland 2.0 Million
* Canada 500,000
* Western Europe 100,000
* Saudi Arabia 1,200,000
* United Arab Emirates 300,000
* Kuwait, Bahrain, Oman, Yemen 200,000
* Australia, New Zealand 30,000

Pakistanis in the USA.

* Of the 1.5M Pakistanis living in the USA, 1/5th of them live in the Silicon Valley.
* 10% of Silicon Valley start-ups are by Pakistanis.
* Pakistani students are the fifth largest in number among foreign students in USA.
* Statistics that show:
* 5% of doctors in the USA,
* 6% of scientists in the USA,
* 9% of NASA scientists,
* 10% of Microsoft employees,
* 6% of IBM employees,
* 9% of INTEL scientists,
* 7% of XEROX employees,
* … are Pakistanis

Distinguished Pakistanis

* First Asian Governor General of British Common Wealth – Mohammad Ali Jinnah
* Nobel Prize in Physics, 1979 – Dr. Abdus Salam
* Designer and Architect of Sears Towers – Dr. Fazal ur Rahman
* Twice Nominated for Nobel Prize in Chemistry – Dr. Saleem uzzaman Siddiqui
* First Governor of Saudi Monetary Agency (SAMA) – Anwar Ali
* Author of Constitution of Malaysia – Fazal Qader
* Chief Advisor to Five Year Economic Plans, South Korea –Maboob ul Haque
* Founder of Int. Center for Theoretical Physics, Trieste, Italy – Dr. Abdus Salam
* World’s Top Desalination Expert – Fayyaz Muddassir Mubeen
* King of Squash, President International Squash Federation – Jehangir Khan

Distinguished Pakistanis

* First Commander-in-Chief of Zimbabwe Air Force – Air Chief Marshal Dawood Pota
* MP in the British Parliament – Lord Nazeer Ahmed
* Developer of Indigenous Nuclear Technology in Pakistan – Dr. Abdul Qadeer Khan
* Among Top Ten IT Investor (according to Forbes) – Asad Jamal (e-Planet)
* Pakistani Executive who was awarded British OBE Award – Munawar Hamid (ICI)
* Pakistani who gunned down 5 enemy aircrafts in single dog flight – Sq. Ldr. M.M. Alam
* President of U.N Gen Assembly/Judge of Int. Court of Justice – Zafarullah Khan
* World Squash Champions – Hashim Khan, Roshan Khan, Azam Jehangir Khan,
* Mohibullah, Jehangir Khan, Jan Sher Khan, Qamar Zaman
* Pakistani Admiral in British Navy – Rear Admiral Amjad Hussain (app. 15 April 2006)
* Pakistani who Conquered Mount Everest –- Nazir Sabir

Distinguished Pakistanis

* Founder of BCCI and FAST – Agha Hasan Abdi
* Winner of King Faisal International Award – Maulana Abul Ala Maudoodi
* World Leader in Organic Chemistry – Dr. Attaur Rehman
* Member of 2008 Nobel Peace Prize Panel with Al-Gore – Prof. Adil Najam
* World’s Top Cricket Legend (499 in 1st Class/334 in Test)- Hanif Mohammad
* Poet of the East, Philosopher of the Nations – Sir Mohammad Iqbal
* World’s Top Hockey Legends – Islahuddin, Rashid Jr., Samiullah,
* World’ Youngest Certified Microsoft Expert – Arfa Karim
* Princess of Jordan – Princess Sarwat (Wife of Prince Hasan)
* Pakistani who Conquered K-2 Second Highest Peak –- Aman Ashraf

* Author of United Nations Human Charter – Ghullam Ali Allana
* Nominee for 2009 Nobel Peach Prize – Abdus Sattar Eidhi
* Architect of Saudi Desalination Program – Arshad Hussain
* Dean of Engineering/Jeddah University – Prof. Dr. Mohammad Ibrahim
* World’s Top War Planner & Strategist – General Hameed Gul
* Ruler of the State of Bhopal – Princess Abida Sultan
* Designer of the Singapore Seaport – Captain Jalal
* US Representative in Organization of Islamic Countries (OIC)- Sada Cumber

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

None of you losers answered MY questions about your denigration of Islam.

1. If Islam was so inherently wicked that it required unmatched violence to spread its message, why did Hindu Indonesia, Malaysia accept islam without a maurauding army of muslim ogres?

2. If Islam was so hell-bent on liquidating hindus, why did it pass laws to stop the practice of suttee and caste system? why not let the women kill themselves? why fight for equality for sudras? How effective was this genocide that resulted in the world’s most densely populated nation?

3. No race has been as battered for so long, so viciously and so consistently as the Jews. The catholic inquisition has no match in its horrific suppression of judaism. Yet Jews managed to keep their traditions. Why is it that upon 1000 years of reflection, the Muslims of South Asia have not returned to Hinduism or Buddhism or Paganism or Zoaraostarianism? Indeed, Why does it continue to grow to this day?

4. Muslims ruled India for 1000 years, yet 75% remained non-muslim – Where was the “genocide”?

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

What I meant, would be clear to anyone with an average IQ & moderate understanding of the english language but I guess you get confused with similar sounding words in the same sentence. I’ll try to keep it simple for you next time, my apologies!

>> Sorry my angreJi is weak. I have trouble with run-on sentences. Inch’allah with your assistance, I hope to improve.

Al Qaeda-Pakistani connection

>> Loose connection not the same as proxy; fail #4

Actually, I’ve come across & known quite a few of your Baluchi & Pashtun “brothers” as well & I can’t really quote the expletive laden language they use in relation to Pakistan, on this blog. At a time when Baluchis & Pashtuns can’t wait to be disassociated from Pakistan, your comment seems quite comical.

>> Were these fake pathans like Irfan Pathan or real brothers like Shahid Afridi? It’s interesting that you are a serial pak-hater yet you socialize with Baluchis in another country. I live in Karachi and I know ONE baluchi family which we love dearly. Finally, were there words as vicious as kashmiris, kamtapur, karbi, nagaland, dimasaland, manipu, mizoram, punjab khalistanis, tripura.

Wrong about that one too. Baluchis & Pashtuns form less than 20% os Pakistan’s population.

>> And this matters how ??? of course 5% of those 20% are your friends!

@”I think you are forgetting our other exports: Shaan Masala, Karachi Gosht, Burfi, Biriyani”

Read my comment again. The operative phrase there is “known for”.

>> you are so utterly humorless, that you can’t comprehend a joke.

I’m sorry, I forgot you need to be explained things thoroughy. You probably just forgot that Pakistan was once, a part of India.

>> Just like pakistan, there was never a country “India” before the Muslims conquered states, city-states etc. and the British consolidated the conquered territory. FAIL.
Where is the mention of the country of India that spans from the “indus to burma”?? Can someone please help. All I can find is these countries, city-states, kingdoms, religions, races, cultures that existed in south asia…

* Mahajanapadas
* Harappa
* Gandhara
* Magadha
* Nanda kingdom
* Maurya kingdom
* Sunga kingdom
* Kanva kingdom
* Kharavela kingdom
* Kuninda Kingdom
* Indo Scythian Kingdom
* Chera dynasty
* Pandyan Kingdom
* Chola kingdom which spread to Malaya, Indonesia, Ceylon
* Satavahana kingdom
* Indo-Greek Kingdom
* Indo-Parthian Kingdom
* Western Satraps
* Kushan kingdom
* Indo-Sassanid Kingdom
* Kalabhras Kingdom
* Gupta kingdom
* Pallava dynasty
* Kadamba Dynasty
* Western Ganga Dynasty
* Vishnukundina
* Huna Kingdom
* Chalukya dynasty
* Harsha
* Eastern Chalukyas
* Pratihara kingdom
* Pala kingdom
* Rashtrakuta Dynasty
* Paramara dynasty
* Yadava Kingdom
* Solanki
* Western Chalukya kingdom
* Hoysala kingdom
* Sena dynasty
* Eastern Ganga dynasty
* Kakatiya dynasty
* Kalachuri
* Muslim Sultanates
o Delhi Sultanate
* Ahom Kingdom
* Vijayanagara kingdom
* Kingdom of Mysore
* Madurai
* Thanjavur Nayak kingdom
* Maratha kingdom
* Sikh kingdom
* Mughal kingdom
* British Empire – included Afghanistan, Kashmir, Burma, Thailand, Andaman, Nicobar, Ceylon, Malaysia, New Guinea, Somalia, Oman, Yemen, Maldives

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

To the sikh gentleman above, i understand that you hate pakistan, that’s fine. I just want you to know we respect and admire you. when you come here for your pilgrimage, we extend tremendous hospitality. sikhs sometimes get their bills paid anonymously in restaurants. the only gripe i have with you is how you kicked our backsides in indo-pak wars. i demand that you not join the indian army.

as for mistreatment of sikhs, i apologize personally but as we all know there is an extremist element here. please find it in your heart to treat us individually.

If this is not possible, i understand.

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

The accomplishments of the past and/or sheer geographic good fortune are largely irrelevant. Is it really relevant today that there was some dude who shot down 5 planes in a battle three decades ago? Or that Pakistan was home of the Mughal Empire? Or that Pakistan is the roof of the world? How is any of that relevant to the situation at hand?

What concerns the rest of the world is the state of Pakistan today. Whereas before Pakistan aspired to be a thorn in India’s side, today Pakistan’s policies are increasingly threatening global peace and security. And even it’s own national security as well. It’s incredible that some Pakistanis take such a flippant attitude to this turn of events.

Democracy is incredibly fragile in Pakistan. Extremism is on the rise. And so is intolerance.

None of that would be any concern to the rest of us if it all stayed inside Pakistan. If Pakistanis want to kill each other, after all, what is it to the rest of the world?

Unfortunately, it’s not that way. The vast, vast majority of terror plots in the West are traced back to Pakistan. Their problems are becoming our problems. And that’s the issue.

Yet, it’s clear from this article that we don’t even know who’s in charge in Pakistan. Can anybody imagine that Chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff dictating to the US President what to do or how long the CJCS would keep his post?

I am not saying that Kayani is a bad leader. He’s actually a terrific leader. But something is seriously wrong when the civilian government doesn’t even have the confidence and authority when a guy like Kayani is in-charge. What does this say about the state of democracy in Pakistan?

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

@”KeithZ” Indian masquerading as American,

The value of Pakistan through the cold war, soviet-afghan war and post 9/11 is well understood by real Americans. Only an indian agitator would call Al-Qaeda a proxy of Pakistan.
—-

I am neither Indian nor American. If you had read my past comments on this forum, you’d know that. But whatever. If that’s the best you can come up with when somebody challenges your points so be it. “oooooh he’s…he’s INDIAN!!!!”

And you obviously can’t read or read very selectively. I said AQ was sheltered by Pakistani proxies. What else would you call the Taliban?

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

http://www.fundforpeace.org/web/index.ph p?option=com_content&task=view&id=99&Ite mid=140

This is what keeps me up at night. I am lucky to live in a country that’s green. But I worry about those red patches sending their problems our way!

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

mirzausman,

If this is what you call an accomplishment, and this is what Pakistanis trumpet as successes, I am staring to wonder if the world has even more to be worried about with Pakistan:

http://reformistani.wordpress.com/2010/0 6/06/indian-women-gaga-over-pakistani-me n/

To flip your arguments around (might as well enjoy the agitation since you seem that type), why is that successful Pakistani men need to find their matches outside Pakistan? What does that say about Pakistani women, when their men take pride in getting foreign brides?

And is it really a point of national pride that Britney Spears had a Pakistani boyfriend? Heck, after her recent antics most Americans I know would be ashamed to admit she’s a yank!

Anyway, keep up your work. It’ll make a good historical record some day of how educated and middle class Pakistanis proved to be really ignorant and bought into Zaid Hamid’s vision for reform in Pakistan. Reformistan indeed.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

Oh Usman,

I found another gem on your site:

http://reformistani.wordpress.com/2010/0 5/17/muslim-girl-wins-miss-usa/

Seems like you and the Taliban aren’t that far apart on your views on the place of women in society.

So tell us again what type of reform you are pushing for in Pakistan?

By the way, here in the West, we don’t judge people by their race or religion. It’s a testament to the multi-culturalism of the West (and in particular the USA) that a lady of Muslim Lebanese descent can win Miss USA.

And if you had bothered to get past your typical male chauvinism, you’d have read her bio that says she has degrees in economics and business management (from the University of Michigan no less) and will be attending law school after her one year stint as Miss USA. Beauty and brains? What a concept…

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

there was some dude who shot down 5 planes in a battle three decades ago?

>> This record stands to this very day. So it is relevant. Gopal initiated the conversation about “Indian” martial heroics from decades past so I am not sure why this is not acceptable as a response.

Or that Pakistan was home of the Mughal Empire? Or that Pakistan is the roof of the world? How is any of that relevant to the situation at hand? What concerns the rest of the world is the state of Pakistan today.

>> Gopal’s assertion is that there is not a grain of sand that is good in Pakistan, that nothing productive has occurred here. He challenged me to provide dubba-dubba-ding-ding facts, so I did as humble as they may be. Since you have a horrible case of confirmation bias, you were highly selective in what you wish to discuss.

Whereas before Pakistan aspired to be a thorn in India’s side, today Pakistan’s policies are increasingly threatening global peace and security. And even it’s own national security as well. It’s incredible that some Pakistanis take such a flippant attitude to this turn of events.

>> If only Pakistan held 1/1000th of the influence you think it wields. First of all the Afghans defeated 3 superpowers for a combined total of 4 times. You think the jokers in Islamabad can do a damn thing about Pushtun warriors? Are Americans/Russians/Indians even remotely complicit in the destabilization of the region? Read a book not authored by the RSS. Who left with a flippant attitude in the vacuum of soviet withdrawal from Afghanistan?

None of that would be any concern to the rest of us if it all stayed inside Pakistan. If Pakistanis want to kill each other, after all, what is it to the rest of the world?

>> Quite right, when Iraqis die by the thousands or Afghans or Palestinians or Kashmiris – It doesn’t matter. When India kills 3000 Muslims in Gujrat, 5000 Sikhs in Punjab or 100,000 kashmiris, it does not matter until it does.

Unfortunately, it’s not that way. The vast, vast majority of terror plots in the West are traced back to Pakistan. Their problems are becoming our problems. And that’s the issue.

>> Americans flushed them into our wild-west border. An area that was not controllable by the British Empire at its zenith, the Soviets at its zenith and now America at its zenith, can’t be controlled by Pakistan. This is why we have given US the green light on the drone thingies. Speaking of the drones, when are they exporting that technology to us? We need them for our eastern, I mean western border.

Yet, it’s clear from this article that we don’t even know who’s in charge in Pakistan. Can anybody imagine that Chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff dictating to the US President what to do or how long the CJCS would keep his post?

>> I agree with you here.

What does that say about Pakistani women, when their men take pride in getting foreign brides?

>> let’s just say our women are not as “charitable” as our Indian/Western hostesses. Also, picking off the cream of the crop in India given the male competition is a statistical dream.

And is it really a point of national pride that Britney Spears had a Pakistani boyfriend? Heck, after her recent antics most Americans I know would be ashamed to admit she’s a yank!

>> I didn’t write that article you ninny some Indian did. and “LEAVE BRITTANY ALONE!!!” lol.

So tell us again what type of reform you are pushing for in Pakistan?

>> Take your inherited colonialist attitude somewhere else. This isn’t 1800′s when western countries could terrorize “noble savages” and impose their will on their subjects. We don’t want to ape your culture like some cheesy bollywood flick. We will reform as WE see fit as WE wish on our own terms. Please refrain from intruding in our internal matters.

I am glad you enjoy my super-sexy blog. Thanks for your support.

Peace,
Mirza

http://reformistani.wordpress.com

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

Mirzausman:

Cockroaches are running under the rock of history. Do not time and again move it.

Focus on the outside (the present).

:-)

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive

@And if you had bothered to get past your typical male chauvinism, you’d have read her bio that says she has degrees in economics and business management (from the University of Michigan no less) and will be attending law school after her one year stint as Miss USA. Beauty and brains? What a concept…
Posted by kEiThZ”

–UofM….Go Blue!

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive

A sample of how a point should not be made since all of this is happening—aping the Bollywood and aping/or reacting to the West.

@Take your inherited colonialist attitude somewhere else. This isn’t 1800’s when western countries could terrorize “noble savages” and impose their will on their subjects. We don’t want to ape your culture like some cheesy bollywood flick. We will reform as WE see fit as WE wish on our own terms. Please refrain from intruding in our internal matters.”
—-Mirzausman

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive

@mirzausman

@”Yes one important achievement: Being the only small country in South Asia to check Bharat’s hegemony dead in its track”

And how exactly did you check India’s so called “hagemony”? By fighting unnecessary wars, creating & sending proxies to India and in the process becoming a radicalized, failed & bankrupt state? That’s indeed quite an achievement. Maybe the other countries in the region should also learn the learn the formula from Pakistan. lol.

@”We have survived – even if you hate us – you must appreciate this fact”

Actually I sympathize. From your grand plans of ruling South Asia (like your mughal “ancestors” lol), now you guys are just happy to exist. That’s quite a drastic downgrade & a sad turn of events.

I went through your list of “facts & accomplishments” & hate to inform you that most of it is irrelevant, grossly exaggerated or just blatant lies. I haven’t responded to items like the size of your population or the height of your mountains since we non-Pakistanis don’t consider them achievements. Don’t think I have the time to refute all the balony but I’ll start with a few. I’m sure, by the end, you’ll get the picture!

* World’s 6th largest Nation – 165.8 Million Population – Irrelevant
* World’s third largest English Speaking Nation – LIE. As per UNESCO, less than 50% of Pakistan is literate & out of which only 20% can read or write some english.
* World’s 5th largest democracy – Democracy, that’s a joke, right?
* One of the World’s fastest growing economy – LIE. #78 (2010 est.) & amongst the lowest in Asia & developing countries.
* GDP $128.83 Billion. (GDP rate: 7%) – LIE. 2010 Est GDP rate: 2.4%
* 7th largest pool of scientists and engineers in the World. – LIE. Not in the top 20.
* Pakistan – The Legacy of Majestic Mughal Empire – Yeah right!
*World’s one of the largest reserves of Chromium Ore – LIE. South Africa, Khazakastan, India.
* Pakistan – The worlds largest explored reserves of Coal at Thar. – LIE. US, Russia, China, India
*Pakistan – The Largest Salt Deposits – Khewra Mines – LIE. USA, Canada, Iran
* Pakistan – Largest reserves of Natural Gas – LIE. USA, Russia, Canada
* World-class recognition in Textile, IT, Engineering Services, Automobile Parts. – Gross Exaggeration.
* Pakistan – Agha Khan University, Karachi has recently been declared as 2nd best residence medical university of theworld – LIE
* Pakistan – Largest network of water distribution canals in the world. – LIE (USA, Canada, China)
* Pakistan World Champion in Cricket, Hockey, Squash, Wrestling, Snooker – Presently?
*JF17 Thunder (equivalent to F16) completely built in Pakistan and being exported – LIE. You mean the Chinese JF17, being bulit in Pakistan?
* AGOSTA 90b submarines – completely built in Pakistan – LIE. You mean the French Agosta being operated in Pakistan?
* Al-Khalid Tank, completely built in Pakistan – LIE. With Chinese help?
* Indigenously Developed Nuclear Weapon Carrying Missiles. LIE. Indegenius? You mean made with stolen european blueprints & Chinese help?
*Karachi Stock Exchange was the world’s best performing stock market in 2005 & 2006 with a market capitalization of over 45 billion dollars. – Distortion. Currently, the market cap of the Karachi stock exchange is 30 bln (The market cap of the Reliance Group of India is more than that)
* Largest net-work of man-made irrigation water-canals in the world – LIE. USA, Canada, China
* Global Manpower – almost in every country – Yeah, we’re familiar with your cab drivers.
* World’s Biggest Earth-filled Dam – Tarbela Dam – LIE. 6th bggest.
* New emerging industries areas include, Mechatronics, Bio-Technology, Clinical Research and Pharmaceuticals. – Let us know when they’ve ‘emerged’.
* Carrier Air Conditioning Co, the American giant for Air Conditioning equipment is to set-up Research and Development Center in Pakistan. Let us know when they actually do.
* Pakistan revenues from Information Technology Industry will reach $ 5 billion in the year 2010. – That’s peanuts. India’s TCS, Infosys & Wipro each have bigger
* Many American companies have shown interest in opening software design Centers in Pakistan. – Let us know when they do
* Pakistan is the world’s largest exporter of textiles and related products such as yarn and cotton. – LIE. USA, India, Uzbekistan
*Pakistan is one of the world’s largest Jewellery and precious gems exporter in the world. LIE. Pakistan not in top 20
* Many US and European Giants Chains sources $ 0.5 Billion worth of goods from Pakistan – That’s not even peanuts.
* The country’s foreign exchange reserves stand at an all-time high of $16 Billion. LIE. Currently it barely has enough to pay 1 months expenses.

I can go on & on but I’m short on time here. Anyways, I’m sure you get the picture.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

@ “Of the 1.5M Pakistanis living in the USA, 1/5th of them live in the Silicon Valley.
* 10% of Silicon Valley start-ups are by Pakistanis. * Pakistani students are the fifth largest in number among foreign students in USA.
* Statistics that show: * 5% of doctors in the USA,* 6% of scientists in the USA, * 9% of NASA scientists, * 10% of Microsoft employees,
* 6% of IBM employees, * 9% of INTEL scientists, * 7% of XEROX employees, * … are Pakistanis”

I had to bring this one up as I almost fell on the floor laughing. This one really underlines, how much you guys distort facts & lie. FYI, The total Pakistani population currently in the US is anywhere between 250,000 to 500,000 by most estimates. The statistics that you state above are really hillarious. If, you’re gonna lie at least be smart about it. I challange you to provide me with a verifiable non-Pakistani source for these manufactured statistics of yours.

@”Al Qaeda-Pakistani connection >> Loose connection not the same as proxy”

Go back & read my comments. I never stated that Al Qaeda was a proxy of the Pakistani army. I said that it was one of the jehadi outfits which your army was in bed with at some time or the other. The connection which I mentioned, proves my point.

@”It’s interesting that you are a serial pak-hater yet you socialize with Baluchis in another country”

I even socialize with Pakistanis. I don’t hate Pakistanis but I do hate the bigotry, belligerance, lack of introspection & the finger-pointing attitude, which I see in most Pakistanis.

Like a true Pakistani, please continue to ignore the bengali genocide.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

And how exactly did you check India’s so called “hagemony”?

>> what the hell is “hAgemony” ?

1. Azad Kashmir would not be well… Azad
2. Akhand Bharat of Nehru would have been realized.
3. Bhutan, Nepal, Bangladesh, sri lanka would go the way of Sikkim, Goa, Junagarh, Hyderabad
4. Askai Chin would be yours.
5. Chinese territory would be yours
6. Economic blockades and interference of weaker neighbors like nepal, sri lanka.
7. Indian territory that rightfully belongs to you but taken by the chinese would be yours!
8. the territory we ceded to china just to irritate you would be yours!
:O

Actually I sympathize.
>> Lie.

I went through your list of “facts & accomplishments” & hate to inform you that most of it is irrelevant, grossly exaggerated or just blatant lies.

>> Let’s just assume 99% are blatant lies, you demanded but ONE accomplishment of Pakistan, did no item on your list fulfill your original criteria?

How about this fact to your threat of erasing pak borders:

150 intra-continental ballistic missiles pointed at 150 of your slums. Want to test if this is an exaggeration as well? Do cross the border and find out.

————————————————–

Rajeev, Your metaphors and analogies are so deep, insightful yet mystical. Now, would the cockroaches represent the legacy of Aryans racist, caste, culture and religion on India or do these types of things conveniently apply to South Asian Muslims only? Your single-minded obsession with the distant but not too distant past betrays some sort of deep humiliation that you feel in your own family tree. Perhaps, your history is analogous to cockroaches to be hidden under a rock. I am perfectly content with my past nay proud of my history. Look at the posts above, you threaten annihilation and salivate at our suffering than claim the moral upper ground with disingenuous concerns for Pakistan’s welfare. Who needs enemies with “friends” like you. F Blue. Go Green! Now if you’ll excuse me, there is a cyclone coming and like the rest of Pakis, I am going seaside.

Bye Haters.

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

A brief look will abundantly expose the facade of the Indian economy; which will collapse at the first signs of uncertainty or instability. In 2008, its external debts increased to around $221 billion. In 2007, Indian exports stood around $145 billion, while imports were around $217 billion; a deficit of $72 billion in a single year.

Its factory output account for 27.6% of the GDP and employs 17% of the total workforce. Rest of the workforce is largely dedicated to the agriculture sector. According to a 2008 World Bank report, 75.6% Indians live on less than $2 per day. It suffers from higher rates of malnutrition than Sub-Saharan Africa. Over 70% of its population is either illiterate or educated below the primary level. Indian tourist industry is 1/6 of Las Vegas. Recently, Standard & Poor’s announced, India risks a downgrade from BBB-minus rating to the lowest investment-grade rating. Clearly, Indians are hardly in a financial shape to even contemplate on waging a war.

Around six out of 10 Indians live in the countryside, where abject poverty is widespread. 34.7 % of the Indian population lives with an income below $ 1 a day and 79.9 % below $ 2 a day. According to the India’s planning commission report 26.1 % of the population live below the poverty line. [World Bank's poverty line of $1 a day, but the Indian poverty line of Rs 360 a month, or 30 cents a day]

“A major area of vulnerability for us is the high consolidated public-debt to GDP ratio of over 70 percent … (and) consolidated fiscal deficit,” says the Governor of Reserve Bank of India (RBI), Mr. Yaga Venugopal Reddy.

According to CIA world fact book, the Current account balance of India is -10,360,000,000 (minus) while China is the wealthiest country in the world with $ 249,900,000,000 (Plus). India is listed as 152 and China as no.1 [CIA: The world fact book].Amnesty International (AI) 2008 report on issues within India

The Human Development Report for 2007-08 released by the UNDP ranked India 128 out of 177 countries, working it out through measures of life expectancy, education and income. Malaysia ranked 63 and listed at under High Human Development category. The report found that India’s GDP per capita (purchasing power parity) is $3,452, far below Malaysia’s $10,882. China listed as 81. Read the statistics from UNDP website.

According to the Indian census of 2001, the total population was 1.028 billion. Hindus numbered 827 million or 80.5 %. About 25 per cent (24 million) of those Hindus are belonging to Scheduled Castes and Tribes. About 40 per cent (400 million) are “Other Backward Castes”.

15 per cent Hindu upper castes inherited majority of India’s civil service, economy and active politics from British colonial masters. And thus the caste system virtually leaves lower caste Hindus in to an oppressed majority in India’s power structure. The 2004 World Development Report mentions that more than 25% of India’s primary school teachers and 43% of primary health care workers are absent on any given day!

89 percent of rural households do not own telephones; 52 percent do not have any domestic power connection. There are daily power cuts even in the nation’s capital. The average brownout in India is three hours per day during non-monsoon months, 17 hours daily during the monsoon. The average village is 2 kilometers away from an all-weather road, and 20 percent of rural habitations have partial or no access to a safe drinking-water supply. [Tarun Khanna, Yale Center for the Study of Globalization]

Around 60 per cent people are not having access to financial institutions in India. This figure is less than 15 per cent in developed countries. (NABARD) According to the National Family Health Survey data (2005-06), only 45 per cent of households in the country had access to improved sanitation.

Education

India has over 35 per cent of the world’s total illiterate population. [UNESCO Education for All Report 2008] Only 66 per cent people are literate in India (76 per cent men and 54 per cent women)

About 40 million primary school-age children in India are not in school. More than 92 % children cannot progress beyond secondary school. According to reports, 35 per cent schools don’t have infrastructure such as blackboards and furniture. And close to 90 per cent have no functional toilets. Half of India’s schools still have leaking roofs or no water supply.

India has the single highest share of neonatal deaths in the world, 2.1 million.107,000 Leprosy patients live in India. 15.3 % of the population do not survive to the age of forty. Serpent attacks kill as many as 50,000 Indians while the cobra occupies a hallowed place in the Hindu religion. Heart disease, strokes and diabetes cost India an estimated $9 billion in lost productivity in 2005. The losses could grow to a staggering $200 billion over the next 10 years if corrective action is not taken quickly, says a study by the New Delhi-based Indian Council for Research on International Economic Relations.There are only 585 rural hospitals compared to 985 urban hospitals in the country. Out of the 6,39,729 doctors registered in India, only 67,576 are in the public sector and the rest either in private sectors or abroad, pointing towards the severity of the problem.Tuberculosis (TB) is a major public health problem in India. India accounts for one-fifth of the global TB incident cases. Each year about 1.8 million people in India develop TB, of which 0.8 million are infectious cases. It is estimated that annually around 330,000 Indians die due to TB. [WHO India]Economy under the siege of Elite HindusMap of India showing the highest concentration of Brahmins and Hindu extremists known as Hinduvta”]

Amnesty International (AI) 2008 report on issues within India (http://rupeenews.com/2008/05/29/amnesty -int-2008-report-excoriates-horrid-india  )India today allocates lower than one per cent gross domestic product (GDP) to health. According to United Nations calculations, India’s spending on public health as a share of GDP is the 18th lowest in the world. 150 million Indians are blind. 2.13 per cent of the total population (21.9 million) live with disabilities in India. Yet, only 34 per cent of the disabled are employed [Census 2001

In India, wealth of 36 families amounts to $ 191 billion, which is one-fourth of India’s GDP. In other words, 35 elite Hindu families own quarter of India’s GDP by leaving 85 % ordinary Hindus as poor!

The dominant group of Hindu nationalists come from the three upper castes ( Brahmins, Kshatriyas, and Vaishyas ) that constitute only 10 per cent of the total Indian population. But, they claim perhaps 80 % of the jobs in the new economy, in sectors such as software, biotechnology, and hotel management.

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

According to TI, 25 % of Indians paid bribe to obtain a service. 68 % believe that governmental efforts to stop the corruption as ineffective. More than 90 % consider police and political parties as the worst corrupt institutions. 90 % of Indians believe that corruption will increase within the next 3 years. “Corruption is a large tax on Indian growth, It delays execution, raises costs and destroys the moral fiber.” says Prof. Rama Murthi. Transparency International estimates that Indian truckers pay something in the neighborhood of $5 billion annually in bribes to keep freight flowing. According to Rahul Gandhi, only 5 per cent of development funds reached their intended recipients due to hierarchical corruption in the country! [Financial Times]Discrimination against Dalits

Crime against Dalits occur every 20 minutes in India. Every day 3 Dalit women are raped, 2 Dalits are murdered and 2 Dalit houses are burnt down! These figures represent only a fraction of actual incidents since many Dalits do not register cases for fear of retaliation by the police and upper-caste Hindu individuals. Official figures show that there are still 0.343 million manual scavengers in India from Dalit community. More than 165 million Dalits in India are simply abused by their Hindu upper castes for their birth! . [HRW Report2007]

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

@” Azad Kashmir would not be well… Azad”

Yes, It’s so “Azad” that as per a recent poll, about half of it’s population wants Azadi from Pakistan.

@”the territory we ceded to china just to irritate you”

It’s more like, the territory you gifted to China to kiss their a$$.

@”Let’s just assume 99% are blatant lies, you demanded but ONE accomplishment of Pakistan, did no item on your list fulfill your original criteria?”

Maybe. But compared to your humungous & disastrous self-inflicted failures, they appear glaringly minute & negligible.

@”150 intra-continental ballistic missiles pointed at 150 of your slums. Want to test if this is an exaggeration as well? Do cross the border and find out”

We don’t need to cross the border. Fortunately, you guys are stupid enough to self destruct & blow those 150 missiles at your own faces.

Have fun at the beach!

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Usman,

In that article you posted, can you please put up the equivalent Pakistani statistics? I’d like to compare.

For example what is the poverty and illiteracy rates in Pakistan? What percentage live below the poverty line in Pakistan? And what percentage of Pakistan survive on less than $1 per day.

You’ve provided tons of stats about India. For comparison sake, I’d be interested in seeing the same stats for Pakistan. And as a Pakistani resident, I am sure you are best placed to furnish them for us.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

Usman,

Can you please give sources for your stats. To start with the rupeenews link is broken. But beyond that I’d like to know where you got the stat that 150 million Indians are blind. In my travels to India, it certainly did not seem like 1 in 10 Indians are bline. And if 150 million Indians are blind, how come only 2.19% of the population is characterized as disabled? Surely, being blind is a disability.

Nor do I buy that 89% of rural residents have no telephones. Land lines maybe. But I don’t recall seeing a single Indian the last time I was there, who didn’t have a mobile phone.

Then there’s stats like, “India has over 35 per cent of the world’s total illiterate population. ” Being the second largest population on the planet and a developing country, surely one would expect that they have a large number of the world’s illiterate. What’s remarkable is the flip side of that stat: they have one of the world’s largest pools of scientists and engineers. Every developing country should be so lucky.

And then there’s this line: “15 per cent Hindu upper castes inherited majority of India’s civil service, economy and active politics from British colonial masters.” Are civil service jobs in India reserved only for Hindus? I’ve had several meetings with Indian government officials. One fellow was Parsi, another Sikh, several hindus, a couple of muslims, two Christians. So what exactly does this line tell us? And where did you get it from?

And then there’s your bizarre comparisons of economic stats to China and Malaysia. How is that relevant? Should we compare Pakistan’s GDP to that of Switzerland? Or per capita GDP of India to the US? That India is a developing country isn’t exactly news to anybody. Here or in the rest of the world.

Anyway, I’d love to see some actual links, so I can compare all those stats for all the various states in South Asia.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

More copy/paste lies, distortions & BS from the Pakistani “fact-churning” machine. I suggest that from which ever propaganda site, you’re blindly copying & pasting these “facts” from, please tell it’s creators that they really need to upgrade/alter them, in order to avoid embarressment to themselves & other Pakistanis like you, who post them on the web.

@”A brief look will abundantly expose the facade of the Indian economy; which will collapse at the first signs of uncertainty or instability”

If the biggest global crisis since the great depression, wasn’t enough to expose the “facade” of the Indian economy, what exactly are you hoping for? An alien invasion? Lmao

Here we go again, with your new India “facts”:

“Its factory output account for 27.6% of the GDP and employs 17% of the total workforce. Rest of the workforce is largely dedicated to the agriculture sector”
LIE. Out of the remaining work force 34% is employed by the Services sector (2009), which is expected to increase to 40% by 2015. Services sector growth is regarded as the best indicator of a country’s economic development before Industrial & Agricultural sectors.

“Over 70% of its population is either illiterate or educated below the primary level”
LIE. 67% of India’s population is literate (2008). Male: 79%, Female 54% & the rates are expected to go higher every year.

“Indian tourist industry is 1/6 of Las Vegas.”
LIE. India’s tourism industry generated $110 bn in revenues in 2009 & expected to increase to $300 bn by 2017, which will be the highest growth rate in the world.

“Recently, Standard & Poor’s announced, India risks a downgrade from BBB-minus rating to the lowest investment-grade rating”
LIE. It was actually upgraded in March & expected to be upgraded again later this year in Oct/Nov.

“India has the single highest share of infant deaths in the world.”
LIE. India ranks #53

“15.3 % of the population do not survive to the age of forty”
Why the cherry picking? Average life expectancy is app. 67 yrs.

“In India, wealth of 36 families amounts to $ 191 billion, which is one-fourth of India’s GDP. In other words, 35 elite Hindu families own quarter of India’s GDP”
LIE. India’s GDP is app. 3.7 trillion. So that makes the wealth of these 36 families, app 5.16% of the GDP & not one-fourth or 25%. By the way, those 36 families aren’t of hindus only. It consists of muslims like Azimji Premji, Sikhs like Mavinder & Shavinder Singh, Parsis like the Tatas & Godrej and others of India’s minority community.

We know that India has high levels of poverty, corruption, income disparity, health care issues etc. but the bottom line is this: In every catagory of social & economic progress that you can think of, India’s statistics are getting better by the day & expected to get even better whereas comparable statistics for Pakistan in the same catagories are getting worse by the day & expected to get worse, at least in the forseeable future. So, instead of wasting your time churning out this false & nonsensical propaganda, try to do something productive & constructive for your country.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

I am starting to see why Pakistanis have such a distorted view of India and the rest of the region. If the quality of this list is anything to go by, then Pakistanis scarcely know how to find, read and interpret accurate statistics. So it’s all made up or grossly exaggerated and passed on from website to website.

From rupeenews (we all know how reliable that fellow was….not to mention racist) right to Reformistani.

Too bad, I guess Zaid Hamid is leading the reform movement in Pakistan. Don’t know what’s worse. Him or the Taliban.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

@Keithz,

A distorted view of India?..don’t you mean deranged?

You know like everybody else Keithz, that in Pakistan they have a different set of books to propagandize their population against India and to further justify consolidation of Islamic power against non-muslims.

Even when you read the Pak Army blogs, it just blows my mind, when you read some of the BS there, Pakistani’s actually believe that Pakistan nation has been around for like 3,000 years and Indian culture never even existed…gather that? I wonder if they feel the same way about Palestine…of course not…Islam must have started when the universe was created..the rest of us are just figments and anomalies generated by the Matrix?!?!

On top of that, they believe that they won every war with India, with exception of 1971. All that Indian Army, they say and still India can’t beat Pakistan….Pakistani’s don’t understand the concept of kid gloves..

Pakistani’s must be from an alternate dimension…there is too much more nonsense to list here, …if you can imagine it…it is there…go have a look.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

@”I am starting to see why Pakistanis have such a distorted view of India and the rest of the region. If the quality of this list is anything to go by, then Pakistanis scarcely know how to find, read and interpret accurate statistics. So it’s all made up or grossly exaggerated and passed on from website to website”

Posted by kEiThZ

What’s even more disturbing is that these guys are seemingly educated & smart and yet they blindly follow this fallicious propaganda without checking their validity from any of the dozens of neutral & credible sources on the internet.

As far as the “reform” agenda of these guys is concerned, it mainly focuses on 2 objectives: Spread hatered for India, US, Jews west etc. & sling mud at their own civilian leaders while tooting the horn of their army. There are some real reformists ou there in Pakistan like Nadeem Pracha (Dawn) but unfortunately, they’re dwarfed by numbers & popularity by the likes of Zaid Hamid etc.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Sorry for the delay in response. The weather has been uncooperative.

So look at all you indians clamoring for my attention and intellect the way your women swoon over my raw machismo and physique. This reminds me of when one of your illustrious batsmen hits our bowlers for a 4. The Pak bowler still stares down the batsmen with a smirk. This confidence comes from knowing that when that batsmen makes love to his wife later that night, it is the ruggedly handsome pak bowler she is thinking about.

A disclosure; All that stuff, I copied and pasted, i didn’t even read it. LOL. However the perennial H1B social outcast mortal painstakingly proof-reads all of it and even suggests corrections. Now I can basically copy mortal’s hard work and paste in on my super-sexy site! In essence, mortal has done Pak a service by cross-checking everything like an indentured servant geek! In a few days, you will see the cleaned, revised version of these facts that meet the strict editorial standard of my blog courtesy of Mortal. Here is the icing on the cake, I will not give mortal credit!

MUHAHAHAHAHA (Evil villain laugh)

Next thing, the negative stuff about India, i copied and pasted from an indian dalit site. it’s not even pakistani! you wasted your time contradicting your own countrymen.

MUHAHAHAHAHA (Evil villain laugh)

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

@ Now I can basically copy mortal’s hard work and paste in on my super-sexy site! In essence, mortal has done Pak a service by cross-checking everything like an indentured servant geek! In a few days, you will see the cleaned, revised version of these facts that meet the strict editorial standard of my blog courtesy of Mortal. Here is the icing on the cake, I will not give mortal credit!”
——-Mirzausman

Mirzausman is the future of Pakistan. Wow! I pity Pakistan.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive

Ah, here comes my favorite part: the personal attacks! So, now that you’ve been proven to be a moronic liar, you come back with the “Oh, I’m a handsome Pakistani hunk & you’re and Indian nerd” routine. That’s quite rich & original of you, indeed!

@”However the perennial H1B social outcast mortal painstakingly proof-reads all of it and even suggests corrections. In essence, mortal has done Pak a service by cross-checking everything like an indentured servant geek!”

And how exactly do you know so much about me?
How do you know that I’m not an institutional global fund mangaer, who hardly had to cross check anything since he has extensive knowledge about economic/social statistics of many countries including India & Pakistan, as well as global commodity production data?
How do you know that besides being a “geek”, I don’t have the physical attributes to kick the living sh**t outta your sorry li’l “macho” a$$ any day of the week & twice on sundays and that I don’t have a social life which the likes of you can’t even afford to dream of?
And, oh gosh, how did you find about my expiring visa status? (Please don’t inform the USCIS, I plead with you! lol)

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

@”In a few days, you will see the cleaned, revised version of these facts”

If by revised version, you mean the true version, I doubt that there’ll be much left to put up there.

@”Here is the icing on the cake, I will not give mortal credit!”

Oh no, that just ruined my day, nah, make that week.
@”Next thing, the negative stuff about India, i copied and pasted from an indian dalit site”

Lie. Let’s have the link to the stuff that you copied from this “indian dalit site”.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Alright Haters, here are some facts with sources:
This is from my super-sexy blog so you know its gold.

The purpose here is to basically expose the mantra of India is some sort of Switzerland.

According to WFP, India accounts around 50% of the world’s hungry. (more than in the whole of Africa) and its fiscal deficit is one of the highest in the world. India’s Global Hunger Index (GHI) score is 23.7, a rank of 66th out of 88 countries. India’s rating is slightly above Bangladesh but below all other South Asian nations and listed under “ALARMING” category. Ref: IFPRI Country Report on India

Around six out of 10 Indians live in the countryside, where abject poverty is widespread. 34.7 % of the Indian population lives with an income below $ 1 a day and 79.9 % below $ 2 a day. According to the India’s planning commission report 26.1 % of the population live below the poverty line. [World Bank’s poverty line of $1 a day, but the Indian poverty line of Rs 360 a month, or 30 cents a day].

The Current Account Balance of India

“A major area of vulnerability for us is the high consolidated public-debt to GDP ratio of over 70 percent … (and) consolidated fiscal deficit,” says the Governor of Reserve Bank of India (RBI), Mr. Yaga Venugopal Reddy.

According to CIA world fact book, the Current account balance of India is -37,510,000,000 (minus) while China is the wealthiest country in the world with $ 426,100,000,000 (Plus) . India listed as 182 and China as no.1 [CIA: The world fact book]

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

Discrimination against Children

According to the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights, India has the highest number of street children in the world. There are no exact numbers, but conservative estimates suggest that about 18 million children live and labor in the streets of India’s urban centers. Mumbai, Delhi and Calcutta each have an estimated street-children population of over 100,000. The total number of Child labor in India is estimated to be 60 million.

The level of child malnutrition in India is among the highest in the world, higher even than some countries in sub-Saharan Africa, says the report ‘Extent of Chronic Hunger and Malnutrition in India’ by the UN’s special rapporteur on the right to food. While around 25 percent children globally were underweight, in India the number was 43 percent. A quarter of all neo-natal deaths in the world, (2.1 million) occurred in India, says UNICEF Report 2007 . More than one in five children who die within four weeks of birth is an Indian. Nearly fifty percent of Indian children who die before the age of five do not survive beyond the first 28 days.

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

Discrimination against Women

According to the 2001 census, female literacy in India is 54.16 % against male literacy of 75.85 %. Most of the working women remain outside the organized sector: A mere 2.3 % women are administrators and managers, and 20.5 % professional and technical workers.

There are an estimated 40 million Hindu widows in India, the least fortunate of them shunned and stripped of the life they lived when they were married. It’s believed that 15,000 widows live on the streets of Vrindavan, a Hindu holy city of about 55,000 population in northern India. Many widows – at least 40per cent are said to be under 50 – are dumped by their relatives in religious towns and left to live off charity or beg on the streets. Their plight was highlighted in Deepa Mehta’s award-winning film Water, which had to be shot mainly outside India because of Hindu extremist opposition to the production.

Nearly 9 out of 10 pregnant women aged between 15 and 49 years suffer from malnutrition and about half of all children (47%) under-five suffer from underweight and 21 % of the populations are undernourished. India alone has more undernourished people (204 million) than all of sub-Saharan Africa combined. Nearly 20 % of women dying in childbirth around the globe are Indians. Six out of every 10 births take place at home and untrained people attend more than half of them. 44 % of the Indian girls were married before they reached the age of 18. It added, 16 % of girls in the age group 15-19 years were already mothers or expecting their first child and that pregnancy is the leading cause of mortality in this age group.

On an average one Indian woman commits suicide every four hours over a dowry dispute. During Indian marriage, women should bring jewellery, cash and even consumer durables as part of dowry to the in-laws. If they fail, the victims are burnt to death – they are doused in kerosene and set fire to. Routinely the in-laws claim that the death happened simply due to an accident.

Rape is the fastest growing crime in India. Every hour Indian women face two rapes, two kidnappings, four molestations and seven incidents of cruelty from husbands and relatives [National Crime Records Bureau Report 2006]

Fetus Killing

Women to men ratio were feared to reach 20:80 by the year 2020 as female fetus killing is rampant. Ten million girls have been killed by their parents in India in the past 20 years, either before they were born or immediately after, told Indian Minister for Women and Child Development Renuka Chowdhury to Reuters. According to the 2001 census, the national sex ratio was 933 girls to 1,000 boys, while in the worst-affected northern state of Punjab, it was 798 girls to 1,000 boys. The availability of ultrasound sex-determination tests leads to such mass killings in India.

Around 11 million abortions are carried out in India every year and nearly 80,000 women die during the process, says a report from Federation of Obstetrics and Gynecological Societies of India (FOGSI)

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

Discrimination against Women

According to the 2001 census, female literacy in India is 54.16 % against male literacy of 75.85 %. Most of the working women remain outside the organized sector: A mere 2.3 % women are administrators and managers, and 20.5 % professional and technical workers.

There are an estimated 40 million Hindu widows in India, the least fortunate of them shunned and stripped of the life they lived when they were married. It’s believed that 15,000 widows live on the streets of Vrindavan, a Hindu holy city of about 55,000 population in northern India. Many widows – at least 40per cent are said to be under 50 – are dumped by their relatives in religious towns and left to live off charity or beg on the streets. Their plight was highlighted in Deepa Mehta’s award-winning film Water, which had to be shot mainly outside India because of Hindu extremist opposition to the production.

Nearly 9 out of 10 pregnant women aged between 15 and 49 years suffer from malnutrition and about half of all children (47%) under-five suffer from underweight and 21 % of the populations are undernourished. India alone has more undernourished people (204 million) than all of sub-Saharan Africa combined. Nearly 20 % of women dying in childbirth around the globe are Indians. Six out of every 10 births take place at home and untrained people attend more than half of them. 44 % of the Indian girls were married before they reached the age of 18. It added, 16 % of girls in the age group 15-19 years were already mothers or expecting their first child and that pregnancy is the leading cause of mortality in this age group.

On an average one Indian woman commits suicide every four hours over a dowry dispute. During Indian marriage, women should bring jewellery, cash and even consumer durables as part of dowry to the in-laws. If they fail, the victims are burnt to death – they are doused in kerosene and set fire to. Routinely the in-laws claim that the death happened simply due to an accident.

Rape is the fastest growing crime in India. Every hour Indian women face two rapes, two kidnappings, four molestations and seven incidents of cruelty from husbands and relatives [National Crime Records Bureau Report 2006]

Fetus Killing

Women to men ratio were feared to reach 20:80 by the year 2020 as female fetus killing is rampant. Ten million girls have been killed by their parents in India in the past 20 years, either before they were born or immediately after, told Indian Minister for Women and Child Development Renuka Chowdhury to Reuters. According to the 2001 census, the national gender ratio was 933 girls to 1,000 boys, while in the worst-affected northern state of Punjab, it was 798 girls to 1,000 boys. The availability of ultrasound gender-determination tests leads to such mass killings in India.

Around 11 million abortions are carried out in India every year and nearly 80,000 women die during the process, says a report from Federation of Obstetrics and Gynecological Societies of India (FOGSI)

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

Armed Conflicts in India

Almost every state has separatist movements, many of them armed. A large number of Muslims were killed in the past few years across the country and the numbers are on a steady rise. On top of that India has become a pariah for its neighbours. None of its neighbours appreciate their closeness to India and they all blame it for meddling in their affairs.

63 per cent of India’s new budget will go to the military, police, administration and debt service (2008-09). The military might of centric Hindu elites in Delhi isolated people of Jammu & Kashmir and the northeastern states. It is difficult for any community to feel part of a larger country when the armed forces of the country are deployed to silence them.

According to an Indian official report , 165 of India’s 602 districts — mostly in states like Chhattisgarh, Andhra Pradesh, Jharkhand, Bihar, Orissa, West Bengal, Maharashtra, Madhya Pradesh and Uttar Pradesh — are “badly affected” by tribal and dalit violence, which government termed as “Maoist terror”. India’s military spending was recorded at US $21.7 billion in 2006 and it planned to spend $26.5 billion during 2008/09 financial year. 85 percent of the Army’s budget is spent on the enormous manpower of 1,316,000, which is the fourth largest in the world.

In 2005, Business Week reported that India became Israel’s largest importer of weapons, accounting for about half of the $3.6 billion worth of weapons exported by the Jewish state.

“Do remember that 34 years ago, NSG was created by Americans. Hence it has been their onus to convince the group to grant the waiver to India to carry out the multi-billion dollar business as India is a large market,” says former Atomic Energy Commission chairman, Mr P K Iyengar.

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

Suicides of Farmers and collapse of Agricultural sector

In the last two years, more than 218,000 people across India committed suicide mainly due to poverty, family feud, strained relationship with loved ones, dowry harassment and health problems. In a research by the Indian National Crime Records Bureau, it was noted that suicide cases in the country were registered at 118,112 and over 100,000, in 2005 and 2006, respectively.

Most of those who committed suicide were farmers, and the victims took their lives either by hanging or consuming poison. Aside from farmers, women also topped the list of people in India with suicidal tendencies. Since 1998 about 25 000 Indian farmers have committed suicide because they could not repay their debts. These debts, however, have largely accumulated because these farmers were severely overcharged by their money-lenders asking for up to 32% of interest.

76 per cent of the nation’s land is belonging to 23 per cent of population. More than 15 million rural households in India are landless. Another 45 million rural families own some land, less than 0.10 acre each, which is hardly enough to make them self- sufficient, let alone generate a profit. 340 million people in India are dependent largely on agricultural wage labour, $1 or less a day.[Rural Development Institute (RDI), Washington]

70 per cent of the Indian population still directly depends on agriculture, but growth in this sector declined from a lackluster 3.8 per cent to an even more anaemic 2.6 per cent last year.

Unemployment

Recently, a national report on the employment situation in India has warned that nearly 30 percent of the country’s 716 million-strong workforce will be without jobs by 2020. Government of India doesn’t have the resources or political will to find jobs for such a large population.

Retail trade employs 8 percent of India’s population, the largest employer after agriculture. There are more than 12 million small retailers in India, 96 percent of whom are small mom-and-pop stores, each occupying less than 500 square feet, creating the highest retail-outlet density per capita in the world. [Tarun Khanna, Yale]

Call centers and other outsourced businesses — such as software writing, medical transcription and back-office tasks — employ more than 1.6 million people in India, mostly in their 20s and 30s. Heart disease is projected to account for 35% of deaths among India’s working-age population between 2000 and 2030 says World Health Organization study. That number is about 12% for the United States, 22% for China and 25% for Russia.

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

A 2006 opinion poll by Outlook—AC Nielsen shows that 46 % of India’s urban class wants to settle down in US. Interestingly, in the Hindutva heart land of Gujarat, 54 % of people want to move to US.

Even Parliament members of the Hindutva party are involved in human trafficking from India. Recently police arrested, Babubhai Katara, a Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) MP, who was part of such a racket. He received 20,000 US $ per person for US migration from victims.

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

Discrimination against Minority Muslims

Recently, Justice Rajinder Sachar Committee report admitted that 138 Million Muslims across India are severely under-represented in government employment, including Public Sector Units. Ironically, West Bengal, a communist ruled state reported 0 (zero) percent of Muslims in higher positions in its PSUs! It has found that the share of Muslims in government jobs and in the lower judiciary in any state simply does not come anywhere close to their population share. The only place where Muslims can claim a share in proportion to their population is in prison! (Muslims convicts in India is 19.1%, while the number of under trials is 22.5%, which exceed their population ratio) . A note sent on January 9 by the army to the defence ministry in 2004 says that only 29,093 Muslims among a total of 1.1 million personnel — a ratio of 2.6 %, which compares poorly with the Muslims’ 13.8 % share in the Indian population. Officially, Indian Army don’t allow head count based on religion.

A Muslim child attends school for three years and four months, compared to the national average of four years. Less than two percent of the students at the elite Indian Institutes of Technology comprise of the Muslim community. According to the National Knowledge Commission member Jayathi Ghosh, ‘there is a need to re-orient official strategies for ensuring better access of Muslim children to schooling outside the madrasas which cater to only four per cent of children from the community.’

Discrimination in Media

Hindu upper caste men, who constitute just eight per cent of the total population of India, hold over 70 % of the key posts across newsrooms in the country. The so-called twice-born Hindu castes dominate 85 % key posts despite constituting just 16 % of the total population, while the intermediary castes represent a meager 3%.

The Hindu Other Backward Class groups, who are 34 % of the total population, have a share of just 4% in the Indian newsrooms. Muslims, who constitute about 13 % of the population, control just 4 % top posts while Christians and Sikhs have a slightly better representation. But the worst scenario emerges in the case of Scheduled Castes (SCs) and Scheduled Tribes /Aborgines (STs): Based on CSDS study, 2006. Ref: The Hindu, June 05, 2006

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

Separatist Movements in Perfect India:

* Andhra Pradesh
o Political party: Jai Andhra
* Arunachal Pradesh
o Rebel organization: Arunachal Dragon Force
o Proposed autonomous region: Teola country
* Assam
Bodoland, Dimasaland, Kamtapur, Karbi below.
o Rebel organization: United Liberation Front of Assam, Muslim United Liberation Tigers of Assam
* Bandera Bodoland.svg Bodoland
o Political parties: National Democratic Front of Bodoland
* Dimasaland
o Political party: Dima Halim Daogah (Two factions)
* Garo
o Rebel organizations: People’s Liberation Front of Meghalaya/Achik National Volunteer Council
o Proposed autonomous region: Achikland
* Jammu and Kashmir – (Occupied/Disputed Area)
o Rebel organizations: Lashkar-e-Toiba, Harkat-ul-mujahideen
o Proposed state: Unification with Pakistan
o Political organizations: All Parties Hurriyat Conference, Jammu Kashmir Liberation Front
o Proposed state: Independent State of Kashmir
* Kamtapur
o Political party: Kamtapur Peoples Party (political wing of KLO)
o Rebel organizations: Kamtapur Liberation Organisation, Koch-Rajbongshi Liberation Organisation
o Proposed autonomous region: Kamtapur state curved out of West Bengal
* Karbi
o Rebel organization: Karbi National Volunteers, United People’s Democratic Solidarity
o Proposed autonomous region: Karbi-Anglong
* Nagaland
o Rebel organization: National Socialist Council of Nagaland
o Government-in-exile: Government of the People’s Republic of Nagaland
o Proposed state: Nagalim, or Peoples Republic of Nagaland
* Manipur
o Rebel organizations: Hmar People’s Convention–Democrat, Manipur People’s Liberation Front, United National Liberation Front, Revolutionary People’s Front of Manipur, People’s Revolutionary Party of Kangleipak
* Mizoram
o Rebel organizations: Zomi Revolutionary Organization, Mizoram Farmers Liberation Force
o Proposed state: Zozam
* Punjab
o Proposed state: Khalistan
o Rebel organizations: Khalistan Commando Force, Babbar Khalsa International, Khalistan Zindabad Force, International Sikh Youth Federation, Khalistan Liberation Force
* Tamil Nadu
o Rebel organizations: Tamil National Retrieval Troops, Tamil Nadu Liberation Army
* Tripura
o Rebel organizations: National Liberation Front of Tripura (two factions operating), All Tripura Tiger Force
* Vidarbha
o Political parties: Vidarbha Rajya Party, Vidarbha Vikas Party, seeking to separate Vidarbha from Maharashtra.
* Zomi
o Political parties: Zomi National Congress

Indian paramilitary soldiers stand at attention in front of colleagues killed in Maoist rebel attacks, after the bodies arrived at a military airport in New Delhi, Wednesday, April 7, 2010. – Photo by AP.
Northeastern India
National Socialist Council of Nagaland-Isak-Muivah (NSCN-IM)
Naga National Council-Federal (NNCF)
National Council of Nagaland-Khaplang
United Liberation Front of Asom
People’s Liberation Army
(Manipur)
Kanglei Yawol Kanna Lup (KYKL)
Zomi Revolutionary Front
Kashmir
Awami Action Committee (AAC)
Jammu and Kashmir Democratic Freedom Party (JKDFP)
Students Islamic Movement of India
North India
Babbar Khalsa
Bhindranwala Tigers Force of Khalistan
Communist Party of India (Maoist)
Dashmesh Regiment
International Sikh Youth Federation (ISYF)
Kamagata Maru Dal of Khalistan
Khalistan Armed Force
Khalistan Liberation Force
Khalistan Commando Force
Khalistan Liberation Army
Khalistan Liberation Front
Khalistan Liberation Organisation
Khalistan National Army
Khalistan Guerilla Force
Khalistan Security Force
Khalistan Zindabad Force
Shaheed Khalsa Force
Central India
People’s war group
Balbir militias
Naxals
Ranvir Sena

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

Questions strategically ignored by HATERS:

You accuse us of begging, how do you explain this:

Begging Statistics
AID TO INDIA: 168.3 Billion USD
AID TO PAKSITAN: 59.9 Billion USD
Source: OECD

Ask yourself this, Why does Muhammad Ali, a black american take pride in Cordoba/Andalusia of a millenium ago? Why do Turks take pride in Muhammad Ali a retired former world champion from a different country thousands of miles away? If tomorrow a Sudra accepts Islam, he is AS Muslim as the direct descendant of the prophet. That’s the beauty of Islam that you Islam-haters will never quite comprehend.

1. If Islam was so inherently wicked that it required unmatched violence to spread its message, why did Hindu Indonesia, Malaysia accept islam without a maurauding army of muslim ogres?

2. If Islam was so hell-bent on liquidating hindus, why did it pass laws to stop the practice of suttee and caste system? why not let the women kill themselves? why fight for equality for sudras? How effective was this genocide that resulted in the world’s most densely populated nation?

3. No race has been as battered for so long, so viciously and so consistently as the Jews. The catholic inquisition has no match in its horrific suppression of judaism. Yet Jews managed to keep their traditions. Why is it that upon 1000 years of reflection, the Muslims of South Asia have not returned to Hinduism or Buddhism or Paganism or Zoaraostarianism? Indeed, Why does it continue to grow to this day?

4. Muslims ruled India for 1000 years, yet 75% remained non-muslim – Where was the “genocide”?

>> what the hell is “hAgemony” ?

Yes, It’s so “Azad” that as per a recent poll, about half of it’s population wants Azadi from Pakistan.

>> Is that your way of saying you want to hold a plebiscite? :)

Let’s just assume 99% are blatant lies, you demanded but ONE accomplishment of Pakistan, did no item on thelist fulfill your original criteria?

Maybe. But compared to your humungous & disastrous self-inflicted failures, they appear glaringly minute & negligible.

>> But there was no condition of comparison to self-inflicted failures right? what is humungous? stop trying to use words you have never used before MR. HAJAMONEY.

@”150 intra-continental ballistic missiles pointed at 150 of your slums. Want to test if this is an exaggeration as well? Do cross the border and find out”

We don’t need to cross the border.

>> Wrong answer. you CAN’T CROSS THE BORDER.

Fortunately, you guys are stupid enough to self destruct & blow those 150 missiles at your own faces.

>> I see you don’t want to test this “lie” ;)

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

@Mirza
“Begging Statistics
AID TO INDIA: 168.3 Billion USD
AID TO PAKSITAN: 59.9 Billion USD
Source: OECD”

Provide a link to the OECD site and silence all those Indian posters who blame you post bullsh*t figures and make up lies.

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive

@ “Begging Statistics
AID TO INDIA: 168.3 Billion USD
AID TO PAKSITAN: 59.9 Billion USD
Source: OECD”

LMAO! Another LIE by the pathalogical liar. I don’t have to check with OECD to know that these outrageous stats are fake/distorted. I challange you to provide the link to the OECD page/file which specifies that India recieved $168.3 Bn in aid. And these figures better be current/recent or you’ll look like a fool again.

Let me give you a peice of advice here: Lying successfully requires a certain degree of intellect & given that all your bluff can been called so darn easily, it’s quite obvious that you don’t have it. So save yourself the humiliation & quit attempting it.

I don’t think I can waste anymore time on a nitwit fibber like you but as a parting gift, here are some grades for you:
Most of your Pakistan “facts” were proven to be lies. So, FAIL.
Most of your India “facts” were proven to be lies. So, FAIL.
You continuesly ignored the Bengali genocide by your army. So, FAIL.
You did not have the guts to provide comparable statistics (which you posted in relation to India), for Pakistan. So, FAIL.
Your final grade? Of course you know, you aren’t that dumb!

Finally, if you ever take a break from your hate mongering & fallicious propoganda spreading routine and wonder as to why your country has become such a collosal failure, just get in front of a mirror & take a good look. Adios!

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Immortal beloved,

I have no doubt that lying is an art perfected by Indians. Only you can paint that poverty and disease stricken cesspool of a country as some sort of european resort. Have you heard of the pincer movement? (No, it’s not a kama sutra position your mata jee performed on me last night) You were drawn into a false sense of security, lulled into taking just one of many baits. As if the bait was a discount on bhaji at the local darba, you lunged at the it only to get caught with your tail in the trap. It’s a tactic my ancestors used many times on your ancestors to rule over the chimpanzees of the ganges for centuries.

Here is the link:

http://stats.oecd.org/qwids/

Select all donors, flow types & sectors for the full history. Select recipients pakistan and india.

Take the sum of the aid given to the two countries and then tell me how you can call us the beggar when you are the one that has rec’d more aid.

I already know your response:

1. It is ISI propaganda
2. If you twist the statistics by this date or that type – then pakistan got one more rupee.. but the fact remains… you have rec’d more aid.

India shining.

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

@Questions strategically ignored by HATERS:
– mirzausman
—Mirxa, at least we are not killers of Pakistanis (now go get into your pilferage act)!

@You accuse us of begging, how do you explain this:
Begging Statistics
AID TO INDIA: 168.3 Billion USD
AID TO PAKSITAN: 59.9 Billion USD
Source: OECD

– Duh!
Let me assume you are right and argue. Well USA has trillion dollars of debt. What does that mean? India and the USA are putting money to use for making more money not turning into dust like Pakistan does. Makes sense?

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive

@RajeevK

You are trying to have a conversation…… mirza is having delusional rantings, …trying to cope with the reality of 2010.. “pakistani=terrorism”…separate lines at airports, …pakistani budget being decided in Washington DC, getting droned…..having to take orders from viceroy Clinton…be kind…understand the humilation of being a “pakistani” in this day and age…you will have more compassion for him.

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive

mirzausman

@Rapes

Quoting Additional Police Surgeon (APS) of KARACHI Dr Zulfiqar Siyal:

“I am saying with full authority that such a large number of rape cases happen in the city,” he told Daily Times on the sidelines of a discussion on sexual violence organised by the Aurat Foundation on Monday. “But very few rape survivors have the courage to come forward in search of justice.” They do not come forward because of the lengthy medical process and delayed justice system in Pakistan. Only 0.5 percent of cases are reported and the majority (99.5 percent) of survivors prefers to stay silent.”

Then there are women who cannot prove rape and charged with adultery and are in prison. I do not want to put out here what happens to certain women in prison.

How about breaking more back and pulling comparable stats for Pakistan?

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive

@You are trying to have a conversation…… mirza is having delusional rantings, …………….
Seekeroftruth

–lol,,,,,it is fun to bring their true inner self. As it happens (with MOST literate Paki blogger community), more they rant more they end up falling in the same category.

They all obey the same equation
India’s negatives = Pakistan’s success.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive

Usman,

Went to your OECD link. Queried ODA disbursements from DAC countries from year 2000 to 2009. Pakistan received more assistance than India in 6 of the last 9 years.

Here’s the link:

http://stats.oecd.org/qwids/#?x=2&y=6&f= 3:51,4:1,1:1,5:3,7:1&q=3:51+4:1+1:1+5:3+ 7:1+2:78,132+6:2000,2001,2002,2003,2004, 2005,2006,2007,2008,2009

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

Rajeev,

where did national debt enter into this debate about aid? your friends initiated an unprovoked verbal
attack on pakistan recieving aid. Once refuted by a neutral, reliable source you changed the parameters/scope of original assertion to national debt. This is a peculiarly indian trait. you
**think** you are outmaneuvering others – but you fool no one. Even your ridiculous US/India national
debt comment doesn’t make any sense. While the US/India both have debts, US gives aid to India and could buy her ten times over.

This is a common theme with you Indians. You initiate accusations, assertions and assumptions. When presented with a rebuttal, you simply shift topic or the original scope of the argument. This tendency to NEVER stay on point betrays your shifty character and flawed argument.

A perfect illustration was how your islam-spread-by-sword theory got absolutely shredded. Another is your theory about Pakistanis (majority buddhist) being forced to accept a foriegn culture. when the analogy to
aryan culture invasion is presented, the silence is defeaning from the usually argumentative Indian hyper-patriots.

You say pakistan has never accomplished a SINGLULAR achievement that is even remotely positive, when refuted – the parameters are changed to comparision to india, or freshness of data or the planetary alignment at the time of said achievement.

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

Keith,

as if following my script (see post above), you basically proved my prediction.

“Well if X is changed to y and y is changed to dubba-dubba-ding-ding for disbursement type X and contributor type z than 6 out of 9 years pak rec’d more aid.”

why are you changing the parameters of the initial accusation? The allegation by the Indians was
explicit: pakistan is the aid-recieving beggar and implicit: super-power india does not. It wasn’t “We rec’d more aid in only 3 of the last 5 years”. Also the challenge was to prove my “impossible” numbers.

Bottom line: India has rec’d more aid, yet their numerous patriotic orga$m$ makes it seem like Pak
gets more aid. Is it not the Pakistanis that you blame for a terrible case of denial?

Standby. the OEcD linkage to ISI prediction will come to fruition shortly.

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

“But very few rape survivors have the courage to come forward in search of justice.” They do not come forward because of the lengthy medical process and delayed

>> Rajeev, I don’t know what you are trying to say, did you get raped in Karachi? what am i supposed to do about this singular quote from a non-scientific survey? Just live your life, don’t let the assailants take over your life. Try to seek comraderie and comfort among fellow victims. Patch your anoos with some amla oil and bandage, walk it off and move on with your life. for god sake man, you have got the wrong forum. You people think i am a psychiatrist?

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

testing 123

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive

i stumbled upon this page in error but had a few hours to kill so read the above article anyways which was quite boring frankly until i started reading the comments section and was quite engrossed in the commentary, especially the debate between this “Mortal1″ bloke & the “mirzausman” fellow. Now, I’m a brit & pretty neutral to both indians & pakistanis. I get along well with both & have nothing against either but in the argument above, i think the mortal1 fellow wins hands down & although mirzausman had some good points, he was mostly proven wrong by mortal1. Anyhow, thanks for the entertainment gentlemen & don’t fight too much (as a brit i apologize to both indians & pakistanis for partly being responsible for your animosity). Indians, please don’t kick the pakistanis hard when they are down because after all you are the same people.

cheers,
Ian Ryeland

Posted by Judas_Priest | Report as abusive

@RajeevK
Why do’nt you regard me a human being and not a robat, then you will be right in your guess. I shall always support the victims and not be a friend of the aggressor. I hold no venom in my blood and probably think differently than the Nationalist I come across in the world.
Have a nice day.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

What Usman Miyan’s list does not tell is that:

Average Pakistani owes 352$ back to OECD
Average Indian owes 152$ back to OECD

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive

hahaha….this mirzausman is such a f*&^*ing loser….he got owned & then he started trash talking like a 12 year old girl….it’s amazing that once pakis get their b*tt whooped, how quickly they shed the act of being ‘literate & civilzed’ n bring their low-life Pakistani upbringing to the fore…..he has proven yet again that pakis will always remain the dirtbags that they are….hahaha

Posted by BlackSabbath | Report as abusive

—-> blacksabbath – couldn’t agree more.

—-> Patch your anoos with some amla oil and bandage, walk it off and move on with your life.
Posted by mirzausman

I’m sure that is the advice you’ll give to your sister or wife the next time they get gang raped in karachi.

Posted by jordan23 | Report as abusive

Fans, I shall answer each one of you.

======================================== ==============

Now, I’m a brit & pretty neutral to both indians & pakistanis. I get along well with both & have nothing against either but in the argument above, i think…

>> I am sorry Ian, apparently you have been led to believe that british arbitration on the international scene is relevant. I am sorry to inform you but british relevancy died during the blitz in London, during the retreat from dunkirk and after your shameful exit from every corner in the world. Even when you did matter, you were well known for your impartiality weren’t you! Is it possible your judgement is tainted by the fact segments of pakistan/afghanistan population are battling your troops at this very moment? Your troops bleed needlessly on the very same pushtun land that claimed their ancestors. I am sure you prefer the smiling, head-tilting gunga-din’s of present-day India over proud peoples like the pashtuns, baloch, sindhi, punjabis, sikhs, americans, chinese & the irish. Perhaps you are the lucky descendant of william brydon left alive to report the fate of the other 4,499 indian & british invaders. You have learned nothing from history.

Yes indeed, you are as impartial as that raging ho_mo$e_xual mountbatten. you and the indians have a historically symbiotic relationship… you have always provided the anoos and the indians have always provided ready and willing tongues. With that said, we do have some similarities, we both fought over the same used and abused $l_ut.. i.e. Bharat.

the mortal1 fellow wins hands down & although mirzausman had some good points,

>> I apologize for the points, they were the unintentional residuals of my intended insults.

(as a brit i apologize to both indians & pakistanis for partly being responsible for your animosity).

>> true. along with the middle east and south asia, you have left a bloody mess. If these indian fools would negotiate with the peace-loving pakistanis than all of south asia can prosper. sadly, some nations just can’t get over historic baggage.

Indians, please don’t kick the pakistanis hard when they are down because after all you are the same people.

>> So will you be leaving in 2010 or 2011?

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

“blacksabbath”,

I take objection to being called literate and “civilzed”. I was never, nor did I ever have any intention to be “civilzed” to the the indians. Moderator, let the record state: I was consistently “uncivilzed” from the very beginning.

Rajeev,

did the amla oil work? are the tissues healing? did you figure out the aid/debt non-issue?
Talk to me baby, don’t be angry. It’s not my fault your anoos looks like a dried tomatoe.

What Usman Miyan’s list does not tell is that:

Average Pakistani owes 352$ back to OECD
Average Indian owes 152$ back to OECD

>> “Seth”,

go ahead and pay “back” 160 billion dollars to the OECD. I am sure they will be pleasantly suprised.

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

So let’s do an unbiased recap:

Here is a list of the unprovoked accusations thrown…

Indians claimed

1. pakistan state does not support USA. — Proven false by Afghan-Soviet war, U2, cold-war, china relations
2. pakistan is the beggar even though India was proven to have rec’d more aid
3. pakistan **NEVER** acheived **ANY** thing positive– read thousands of articles on http://www.pakpositive.com/.
4. pak has never won a battle— rann of kutch, pak liberation of azad kashmir etc.

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

5. Indians CHALLENGED aid figures were a lie — See OECD database.
6. Indians claimed india 1.1 billion person economy not smaller than italy: True. India is not even on the List.
7. Here is a link for you stat enthusiasts: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy
8. islam required force to convert people of south asia– Could not even acknowledge my rebuttal
9. india could erase pak border: you can’t even cross it– recall the great indian army picnic of 2002

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

10. baloch and pushtuns of modern day pakistan did not defeat the people of modern day India — True. We defeated chimpanzees of India.

Regards.

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

moving forward, please post all your love letters at http://reformistani.wordpress.com

I shall drop back in again but only if you beg me like rajeev.

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

@Usman
We can even think of returning 160b dollars since our foreign reserves are at 280b dollars. Your land of pure has swallowed all 70b and are only left with 15b.

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive

“moving forward, please post all your love letters at http://reformistani.wordpress.com

I shall drop back in again but only if you beg me like rajeev.”

>> You shall be missed for your nuisance value! First, Dubba-dubba-ding-ding (Philadelphian, eh?) and later discussions about certain rear body parts proved you have great expertise and an in-depth (and I mean it) knowledge of “things”. Well, carry on your PhD and I’m sure you will be posting more such rash-null stuff somewhere on Internet. Happy spamming!

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive

@Rajeev, I don’t know what you are trying to say, did you get raped in Karachi?
–Posted by mirzausman
—LOL….. I did not know the situation is that bad. Thanks for the alert!

@Patch your anoos with some amla oil and bandage, walk it off and move on with your life.”
—i think “sore Mirza” need oil after this gan$ba#g. He is now losing track who said what.

@You people think i am a psychiatrist?
Posted by mirzausman
—did u mean to say “psychotic”?

_________________

@RExminor

@Why do’nt you regard me a human being and not a robat, then you will be right in your guess. I shall always support the victims and not be a friend of the aggressor. I hold no venom in my blood and probably think differently than the Nationalist I come across in the world”
—no idea why u said all that. Please provide me the context of what are you responding to. I have set trash settings for Reuters.

For the record: I do not think anything of “YOU”. I am addressing your points.

DO not make assumptions.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive

@ 1. pakistan state does not support USA. — Proven false by Afghan-Soviet war, U2, cold-war, china relations

>>> The participation in the Afghan war was to save your own a$$ from the russians & anyways that & the cold war was a long time ago. How are you a supporter of the US when isi was invloved in 9/11 (proven by mortal) & when 7 of your citizens have been arrested since 9/11 for planning attacks in New york, Chicago & San Francisco?

2. pakistan is the beggar even though India was proven to have rec’d more aid

>>> India received more aid but it did not beg for it like pakistan shamelessly & constantly does at the “friends of Pakistan summit”. The aid given to india is in the normal course of it’s bilateral relations with countries, who provide aid as an investment in it’s future i.e US gives aid to india’s eductaion sector, so that more people get educated & become prosperous & then US companies can sell them their products. Also, India is 7 times bigger than Pakistan but the aid recieved has been less than twice. Again, Pakistan shamelessly begs for aid & India doesen’t, big difference. Also, OECD does not mention this but India also provides aid to a number of countries in it’s neighbourhood i.e Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Nepal, Afghanistan, Bhutan etc.

3. pakistan **NEVER** acheived **ANY** thing positive– read thousands of articles on

>>> No achievements worth mentioning. You guys are perrenail LOSERS! haha

4. pak has never won a battle— rann of kutch, pak liberation of azad kashmir etc.

>>> Rann of Kutch: Pakistan did not “win” anything in the battle. After mediation by then british PM Harold Wilson, it was awarded 350 sq miles of the land against it’s claim of 3500 sq miles. So, get your facts right.
Pak liberation of azad kashmir: When Pakistan attacked kashmir in 1947, it was not apart of India yet. Hari singh had not made up his mind but after Pakistan attacked & captured significant portions of kashmir, he acceeded to India. Then the Indian forces entered the war, repelled the Pakistani forces (AZK) & actually gained back terrirory. So, how is that a victory for pakistan? Only losers would term that as “win”.

5. 5. Indians CHALLENGED aid figures were a lie — See OECD database.

>>> They are lies. It still doesen’t add up to the figures you posted.

Posted by BlackSabbath | Report as abusive

6. Indians claimed india 1.1 billion person economy not smaller than italy: True. India is not even on the List.

>>> the best measure of an economy, which every economist uses, is the PPP (purchasing power parity) & as per that measure, India is #4.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cou ntries_by_GDP_(PPP)

8. islam required force to convert people of south asia– Could not even acknowledge my rebuttal

>>> It hasn’t been proven either way.

Posted by BlackSabbath | Report as abusive

9. india could erase pak border: you can’t even cross it– recall the great indian army picnic of 2002

>>> How’s that an indian panic when both sides withdrew after international mediation?

10. baloch and pushtuns of modern day pakistan did not defeat the people of modern day India — True. We defeated chimpanzees of India.

>>> You defeated? haha what a jerk off you are, man! Unless you are a baluchi or pashtun (which u said u weren’t) u r the descendant of those chimpanzees. haha

Bottomline: U R A sad pathetic Paki loser & always will be!

Posted by BlackSabbath | Report as abusive

@ we both fought over the same used and abused $l_ut..

>>> Actually the biggest w*0*re in the world today is pakistan. She shamelessly s*^*^cks chinese c^*^ck while giving a hand job to the Arabs & getting f*^*ked in the A$* by the Americans. hahaha

@ If these indian fools would negotiate with the peace-loving pakistanis than all of south asia can prosper.

>>> hahaha….”Peace loving pakis”, the best joke I heard in a while. The #1 terrorist manufacturing country in the world whose non-state actors all around the world are planning attacks right now is a “peace loving country”.

Posted by BlackSabbath | Report as abusive

@”I shall drop back in again but only if you beg me like rajeev.”
Posted by mirzausman

and then Miza begs Rajeev “Talk to me baby, don’t be angry.”

Mirza, this vanilla begging does not work for me..make it better or go to dungeon—your place! LOL

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive

Rajeev, your flirting worked. I am back.

@ 1. pakistan state does not support USA. — Proven false by Afghan-Soviet war, U2, cold-war, china relations

>>> The participation in the Afghan war was to save your own a$$ from the russians

** fail. we were in the USA freedom camp since the 1950s while India supported the evil empire of soviet Defunct Union.

& anyways that & the cold war was a long time ago.
** So is 1971 but that still gives you an er_ec_tion.

How are you a supporter of the US when isi was invloved in 9/11 (proven by mortal)

** fail. i just looked at this “evidence”, a HUGE leap, even by gopal’s standard, inconclusive from a questionable source.

& when 7 of your citizens have been arrested since 9/11 for planning attacks in New york,
Chicago & San Francisco?

** fail. lone wolves, non-state actors, some non-resident, non-pak citizens.

2. pakistan is the beggar even though India was proven to have rec’d more aid

>>> India received more aid but it did not beg for it

** so they didn’t beg, 160 billion just fell out of the westerner’s pockets into your slumdog hands.

like pakistan shamelessly & constantly does

** oh, acha, acha. so india did not get more aid than pak?

at the “friends of Pakistan summit”. The aid given to india is in the normal course of it’s bilateral relations with countries, who provide aid as an investment in it’s future

** This is so Indian.. “For india it was not to be dubba-dubba aid, it was “investment”" lol

i.e US gives aid to india’s eductaion sector, so that more people get educated & become prosperous & then US companies can sell them their products.

** oh, acha, acha. so india did not get more aid than pak?

Also, India is 7 times bigger than Pakistan but the aid recieved has been less than twice.

** oh, acha, acha. so india did not get more aid than pak?

Again, Pakistan shamelessly begs for aid & India doesen’t, big difference.

** oh, acha, acha. so india did not get more aid than pak?

Also, OECD does not mention this but India also provides aid to a number of countries in it’s neighbourhood i.e Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Nepal, Afghanistan, Bhutan etc.

** so does poor old pakistan to bosnia, central asia etc. but does this mean that india did not get more aid?

3. pakistan **NEVER** acheived **ANY** thing positive– read thousands of articles on

>>> No achievements worth mentioning. You guys are perrenail LOSERS! haha

** Yes, nobel prize in physics is a pathetic acheivement. Even dummies like Einstien can win those.
however, it is ONE accomplishment as requested right?
What are perry-nail losers? Is that when a nation of 1.2 billion wins 1 medal.

4. pak has never won a battle— rann of kutch, pak liberation of azad kashmir etc.

>>> Rann of Kutch: Pakistan did not “win” anything in the battle. After mediation by then british PM Harold Wilson, it was awarded 350 sq miles of the land against it’s claim of 3500 sq miles. So, get your facts right.

Nobody is talking about negotiations but the military battle. FAIL. PROOF:
May 16, 1965 – Frustrated Indians have picked the United States as a scapegoat for India’s somewhat humiliating encounter with Pakistan in the Rann of Kutch. US at Fault in Rann of Kutch, India Says. BY CONRAD FINK. Chicago Tribune (1963-Current file) – Chicago, Ill.

repelled the Pakistani forces (AZK) & actually gained back terrirory.

** So in your previous example, 3,150 negotiation-miles matter but 83000 sqkm actual miles taken by Pak are irrelevant? MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

So, how is that a victory for pakistan? Only losers would term that as “win”.

** A nation one-tenth the size of its enemy takes 83 thousand sqkm of the future “integral” state of Indian union. How is that not a win?

5. 5. Indians CHALLENGED aid figures were a lie — See OECD database.

>>> They are lies. It still doesen’t add up to the figures you posted.

** Did I not round to nearest one-thousandth rupee?? You must be gujrati. Keep the change yaar.

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

6. Indians claimed india 1.1 billion person economy not smaller than italy: True. India is not even on the List.

>>> the best measure of an economy, which every economist uses, is the PPP (purchasing power parity) & as per that measure, India is #4.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cou ntries_by_GDP_(PPP)

** I was talking about nominal GDP, I prefer nominal GDP, I like nominal GDP versus PPP dubba dubba ding ding.

8. islam required force to convert people of south asia– Could not even acknowledge my rebuttal

>>> It hasn’t been proven either way.

** So the accusation was just more Indian propaganda (like aid)

>>> How’s that an indian panic when both sides withdrew after international mediation?

** kashmiris brazenly attacked your parliament as retaliation for your 100k+ murders in kashmir. you huffed and puffed, blew your chest out, mobilized most of your slumdog army, promised and threatened retaliation and left with a whimper… poof.

10. baloch and pushtuns of modern day pakistan did not defeat the people of modern day India — True. We defeated chimpanzees of India.

>>> You defeated? haha what a jerk off you are, man! Unless you are a baluchi or pashtun (which u said u weren’t) u r the descendant of those chimpanzees. haha

** so the balochis and pushtuns did not defeat the marathas?

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

@does not work for me..make it better or go to dungeon—your place! LOL

>> Make it better or go to dungeon??? that’s really creative rajeev, did you stay up all night thinking of that? Go ahead and reward yourself with a veggie pakora and some bondas. Then you and your friends do a favor to the rest of humanity and use some of that per capita income on deodorant.

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

@mirza itching usman

** fail. we were in the USA freedom camp since the 1950s while India supported the evil empire of soviet Defunct Union.

>> “freedom camp” lmao, f***in hilarious. Thats why they forcefully put their rears on your stretched out tongues? Some know that act as drone-attacks. Good that you went there in 1950, had you delayed for some time, americans would be flushing down your throats.

** So is 1971 but that still gives you an er_ec_tion.
>> Pashtuns and baluchis over marathas can make you moist though….you are so full of multi-colored sh*t

***lone wolves, non-state actors, some non-resident, non-pak citizens.
>> utter bs, all home-baked products of terror factories, you are actually belittling your brethren, at least they were willing to die for what they believed… swallow it, for your brothers’ sake atleast.

** oh, acha, acha. so india did not get more aid than pak?

>> Your problem lies in your jest to compare the two countries irrespective of your size to India. India is 7 times bigger in population and yet received only about double the aid. To put some salt on your wounds, India’s foreign reserve is 280 billion dollars so at least we made good use of aid money. Pakistan, on the other hand, gulped all the aid money, have very little progress to show to the world and only have 15b in foreign reserves. If world pulls out aid now, you will be selling your women and kids in the slaves market to have salt and bread. Rajeev and us, on the other hand, will go and have veggie pakoras and some jalebi. As for deodorent, I’ve a classy cauliflower flavour just for you that you may have never come across even during your “theis” work.

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive

** fail. we were in the USA freedom camp since the 1950s while India supported the evil empire of soviet Defunct Union.

>>> Again “WERE”. I know you pakis like to live in the past but opne your eyes, this ain’t the 50′s, 60′s or even 80′s. As per a recent BBC poll, in 2010, more than 80% of Pakis hate America.

** So is 1971 but that still gives you an er_ec_tion.

>>> It doesen’t give us an ere**ion but apparently, you Pakis are still suffering from the rape wounds that’s why every Paki brings it up. Follow your own advice here, apply some amla oil on your nation’s c**nt, walk it off & move on.

** fail. i just looked at this “evidence”, a HUGE leap, even by gopal’s standard, inconclusive from a questionable source.

>>> Of course, how can a criminal accept the evidence against him. & who’s is gopal? If you knew how to read, you’d know that mortal is an american indian sikh.

** fail. lone wolves, non-state actors, some non-resident, non-pak citizens.

>>> hahah Of course. your country’s famous “non-state actors” theory, it is the biggest joke in the world.

** so they didn’t beg, 160 billion just fell out of the westerner’s pockets into your slumdog hands.

>>> again numbnuts, it’s an agreement between groups of developed countries (DAC) & developing countries.

** oh, acha, acha. so india did not get more aid than pak?

Actually it did not. What matters are the current times & in the last 10 yrs since 2000 Pakistan recieved more aid than India. India got $6.046 bn & Pakistan got $6.575 bn. So there you go.

>>> Rann of kutch: Excerpt from wikipedia:
“On March 20, 1965, and later in April 1965, fighting broke out between India and Pakistan in the Rann of Kutch due to intentional provocation by the latter[6]. Initially involving border police from both nations, the disputed area soon witnessed intermittent skirmishes between the countries’ armed forces. In June 1965, British Prime Minister Harold Wilson successfully persuaded both countries to end hostilities and set up a tribunal to resolve the dispute. The verdict, which came later in 1968, saw Pakistan awarded 350 square miles (900 km²) of the Rann of Kutch, as against its original claim of 3500 square miles.[7]”
Who is is more credible, wikipedia or a lone journalist?

** A nation one-tenth the size of its enemy takes 83 thousand sqkm of the future “integral” state of Indian union. How is that not a win?

>>> go back & read my comments. Pakistan attacked Kashmir when it was still an idependant state much before India got involved. When India got involved & the actual war took place, India gained back territory, which was earlier controlled by Pakistani forces. even a 5 yr old would be able to tell who won & who lost here but u pakis are good at presenting losses as victories, so go ahead.

** Did I not round to nearest one-thousandth rupee?? You must be gujrati. Keep the change yaar.

>>> You loser, you’re actually off by about $128 bn (your pak figures are also way off). The total aid recd by India in the OECD database for all yrs is $40.92 bn. So how the f*^ck did u get the figure of $168.3 bn? typical paki LIAR! You pakis obviously don’t know how to count, no wonder you guys are bankrupt haha. And no I’m actually catholic but I would anyday prefer to be a bright & prosperous indian gujarati than a sad, stupid & hateful Paki.

** I was talking about nominal GDP, I prefer nominal GDP, I like nominal GDP versus PPP dubba dubba ding ding.

>>> who gives a f*^ck about what a loser like you prefers, when every economist in the world uses PPP, which takes into account important factors like inflation, currency etc. i guess it’s too complicated for pakis.

** so the balochis and pushtuns did not defeat the marathas?

>>> NO. provide proof that the army which defeated the marathas was exclusively of baluchis & pashtuns.

@ then you and your friends do a favor to the rest of humanity and use some of that per capita income on deodorant.

>>> hahah. A stinky paki dipsh!t advising others to use deodorant is like a filthy pig telling others to stay clean. Do you know how did the word “paki” came about in the UK? A few smelly & stinky pakistanis like yourself went to school everyday without taking a shower & smelling like sh**t. Other students were so disgusted by this that they started using the word “paki” to intimate each other, every time a pakistani was in the vicinity so that they could escape the stench. the word soon caught up & the rest is history. So next time you wanna advise others to use deoderant, keep the word “paki” in mind. haha

Posted by BlackSabbath | Report as abusive

** fail. we were in the USA freedom camp since the 1950s while India supported the evil empire of soviet Defunct Union.

>> “freedom camp” lmao, f***in hilarious. Thats why they forcefully put their rears on your stretched out tongues? Some know that act as drone-attacks. Good that you went there in 1950, had you delayed for some time, americans would be flushing down your throats.

======================================== ==========================
Go back and read the argument,
You fellow indiots started the Pakistan does not
support USA argument. I was just setting the record straight.
======================================== ==========================

** So is 1971 but that still gives you an er_ec_tion.
>> Pashtuns and baluchis over marathas can make you moist though….you are so full of multi-colored sh*t

======================================== ==========================
Go back and read the argument. I am open to discuss any period in
history, the indiots conveniently (and understandably) did not want to discuss
the anal ruptures of yesteryear.
======================================== ==========================

***lone wolves, non-state actors, some non-resident, non-pak citizens.
>> utter bs, all home-baked products of terror factories, you are actually belittling your brethren, at least they were willing to die for what they believed… swallow it, for your brothers’ sake atleast.

======================================== ==========================
wait a minute. i thought not fighting the terrorists was a
bad thing, now fighting them is a bad thing? which is it?
======================================== ==========================

** oh, acha, acha. so india did not get more aid than pak?

>> Your problem lies in your jest to compare the two countries irrespective of your size to India. India is 7 times bigger in population and yet received only about double the aid. To put some salt on your wounds, India’s foreign reserve is 280 billion dollars so at least we made good use of aid money. Pakistan, on the other hand, gulped all the aid money, have very little progress to show to the world and only have 15b in foreign reserves. If world pulls out aid now, you will be selling your women and kids

======================================== =======
I don’t think foriegn reserves is a good indicator. One of the world’s
biggest destination for child prostitution is your
filthy rich India.

some intensive project studies and research work reveal following facts: According to a recent publication on trafficking, (The Coalition against Trafficking in Women – Asia Pacific. http://www.catwinternational.org) there are about 2.3 million prostitutes in India. This data may seem to be on the higher side but authentic data of a survey of Bombay (Mumbai) city alone indicates an alarming figure of more than 0.1 million prostitutes in its 12000 brothels. Approximately 20% women in prostitution are under 18. A sample survey of 12 states and 2 union territories reveals that women who are sexually exploited and sold are usually children (under 18 years) at the time of their initial exploitation or abduction.

In India, the Vedas, the earliest of the known Indian literature, abound in references to prostitution as an organized and established institution. In Indian mythology there are many references of high-class prostitution in the form of celestial demigods acting as prostitutes. They are referred to as Menaka, Rambha, Urvashi, and Thilothamma. They are described as perfect embodiments and unsurpassed beauty and feminine charms

======================================== =======

in the slaves market to have salt and bread. Rajeev and us, on the other hand, will go and have veggie pakoras and some jalebi. As for deodorent, I’ve a classy cauliflower flavour just for you that you may have never come across even during your “theis” work.

======================================== ==========================
Go back and read the argument. Indiots claimed Pakistan is
the beggar nation… This is strange since you have taken more
aid, correct?
======================================== ==========================

**************************************** ******************
What’s the matter Indians??? Don’t like it when someone insults your country???
Awwww poor babies.
**************************************** ******************

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

Ok loser, now that most of your responses/rebuttals have come down to “Go back & read the argument, you Indians started it”, it’s time for you to take your chopped puccini back to your cave & jerk it off, a little haha

@ What’s the matter Indians??? Don’t like it when someone insults your country???

>>> No we don’t. wanna know why??? Because we’re not Pakistanis, so we’re not used to seeing our country get insulted, humiliated & b*tt-f*^ked all over the internet & the world but I’m sure as a paki, you’re quite used to it haha.

Posted by BlackSabbath | Report as abusive

“Pashtuns and baluchis over marathas can make you moist though…

I am open to discuss any period in history”

>> bad mirza, its a give and take game….don’t be so mean and care about others er_ec_tion when you want your thingy moist too. Okay, seriously… ponder over it and answer this:

What is more likely?
a) Somebody in your family line coming all the way from Arab/Turkey and settling here in this region and rearing a family, Or
b) Some unfortunate lady in your family line being forcefully taken, beaten, raped and forced to convert to Islam (having no choice left).

Take as much time as you want to take. Ask your parents, grandparents (hope they are alive) and do as much research you want to do on your “own” history for a change. There is DNA ancestry kits available in the market that you may use.

Those who came to Indian region from outside for loot did not bring their kids and wives with them. That is a common sense thing man. Its so unfortunate that you take so much pride in the fatherly side and complete ignore the plight of those unfortunate ladies in your ancestry. Hindu blood runs in your DNA and as much you hate indiots or veggie-eating Hindus, you have to live with your blood every day. Even if you go on dialysis, chances are you will end up getting the same hindu blood.

I’m not saying all this to prove supremacy of one religion over another, after all its just a different outlook on experiencing the same phenomenon.

Posted by Seth09 | Report as abusive

“I don’t think foriegn reserves is a good indicator. ”

>> You got to be kidding. You had to bring child prostitution numbers as your counter argument to that. First and foremost, you should talk about averages and not the numbers when you are not comparing apples to apples. A high-school student knows that. As for vedic culture and mythology, A) your brain is rotten beyond repair and you are incompletely incapable of understanding any of it, B) Organized prostitution is 1000 times better than the possibility of MAN getting raped on streets of Karachi and it only depicts the maturity of a society even when it was not the way your filthy mind interprets it (tch I forgot, women are not your expertise), so we may leave that discussion for some other day, C) I still haven’t heard or read of a prophet, rishi or avatar having it with a 6/9 year old girl.

Its not my intention to deride one’s faith so I don’t want to go any further on that. Nuff said!!!

—–
“Go back and read the argument. Indiots claimed Pakistan is
the beggar nation This is strange since you have taken more
aid, correct?”

Again, Math was never your thing and it will not get into your thick skull. You don’t compare apples to oranges in numbers, use averages.

Secondly, aid is not equivalent to alms. Its help that is offered to help the countries get on their feet and its offerred voluntarily.
If India is still a beggar, well, better than being a leecher(wow, leechad will also rhyme) any day.

Posted by Seth09 | Report as abusive


wait a minute. i thought not fighting the terrorists was a bad thing, now fighting them is a bad thing? which is it?”

>> don’t play naive here…you know it very well how and where these non-state actors come from.

Posted by Seth09 | Report as abusive

so what do you SIKHS think of wonderful Hindustan opening up the artillery on the its own civilians in amristar, rolling into the sacred area with vijayanta tanks, censoring all the media, bombarding the holiest site of the sikhs destroying one of the most beautiful buildings in the world – the golden temple. Indian army ran into the complex with their boots and massacred the sikh warriors. After the indian operation was completed, the temple was mangled mess of blood, urine and feces of the dead bodies.

Once the architect of this assault was avenged, over 5000 innocent sikhs were murdered by hindu mobs in delhi.

how can your proud race possibly forgive the hindustanis for this sacrilege?

We Pakistanis would never do such a thing to sikhs in your holy sites on this side of the border.

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

On May 31st the Indian government launched an attack on the Golden Temple with 500,000 troops. There were only 251 Sikhs inside to protect the complex of the Golden Temple. But it was not a big attack at first because Sikhs were coming to Golden Temple to celebrate Martyr day of Guru Arjan Dev Ji. Sikhs held the army back for four days. Many troops lost their lives but not a single person of army could enter the Temple. Then the Indian government brought tanks and destroyed the Akaal Takhat Sahib, which is right in front of the Golden Temple. On June 6th, when all Sikh fighters became martyrs, the war was over and the Indian troops entered the temple. They did not even respect the holiness of the sacred place and entered with their shoes on, showing utter indecency. When Indian troops found that only 251 men had stopped them from entering the temple for 6 days they started killing innocent Sikhs who had come there to visit the Temple. This was to hide their humiliation. The small number of heroic Sikhs killed even the best of their army men. Sikhs in the temple were lined up and shot—dead, not even children were spared. About 50,000 Sikhs were killed that day. Priceless Sikh artifacts were burnt. All the Literature written by the Gurus was taken away by the army, but they claimed that it was burnt while bombing the Temple. The whole Amritsar city was burnt. Many visitors were killed and arrested. Sikhs’ shops were looted and houses were burnt. Hindu mobs went to every Sikh house and burnt Sikhs alive, women were dishonored even pregnant Sikh women. Most Sikhs that were killed were between ages from 5 to 40. Their main target was young Sikh males. The Indian government feared that young Sikhs would rebel. They thought if they killed young Sikh men then there would be no Sikh marriages and in next 10 or 15 years the Sikh population would not increase and they would eventually die out.

Indian government started making excuses about why it had become necessary to attack Golden Temple. Indian government claimed that Sant Jarnail Singh and his companions were using the building as their hiding place and had kept deadly weapons inside the building. Furthermore, they said they wanted to arrest Bhindranwale and drive him out of Golden Temple. But my point is if they wanted to arrest Bhindranwale then why couldn’t they arrest him when he preached all over India. He went to Bombay, Delhi and other major cities. So why couldn’t the Indian government arrest him there? Why couldn’t they arrest him at Mehta Choank? If the Golden Temple was attacked to drive out Sant Bhindranwale then why were other more than 50 Sikh temples attacked on the same day in Punjab by the army? Why were thousands of innocent people killed? Why did the government have to use tanks and heavy artillery to drive out few Sikhs? The truth is, it was a big plan of the Hindu government to destroy Sikhism and merge it into Hinduism. If you just look at what happened to Sikhs before 1984, it makes clear sense of why the Indian government attacked Golden Temple. Just look at the Olympic games of 1983 where no person with the last name “Singh” was allowed to enter in Delhi. If Bhindranwale was the target then why didn’t the army leave Punjab right after it was over? Why was the literature burned? Why did Indian troops linger and disrespectfully smoke cigars inside the temple?

All of the visitors to the Golden Temple were arrested and they all starved to death because they were not given any food to eat not even a single drop of water. When someone asked for water, the army men said “Drink that blood on the floor. That’s what you deserve. You deserve to die.” Many visitors were locked up in the rooms for two days without any food, water, or electricity and they all starved to death. The Golden Temple remained under the army control for months. WHY?!!! Because Indian government wanted to put someone in charge who would support them. Using Sant Jarnail Singh’s name was just a mere excuse. The truth is he was a real leader who openly spoke for the rights of Sikhs. In 1982, he had already said that Indian government was making plans to attack Golden Temple. Indian government built a model of Golden Temple in Dehradoon and the army was given special training.

When Sikhs in other states found out about the attack, they rebelled. Most of them who were in the Indian army and were far away from Punjab. They quickly left for Punjab and thwarted and killed many Hindus in power and officers. This put a stop to Indian army’s mission of killing innocent Sikhs in Punjab. Indian government turned its attention to Sikh military and tried to stop them before they could reach Punjab. Many Sikhs were killed on the way and many were arrested. There are about 60,000 Sikhs in jails without any charge or trial. Five months later Indira Gandhi was assassinated by her two Sikh bodyguards. One of them became martyr at the spot and other was hanged later after severe tortures. About 5,000 Sikhs were killed in four days. The mobs were organized by the government officials. Every Hindu was given 500 rupees and one liquor bottle to kill Sikhs. Mobs were given addresses of Sikhs’ houses and shops so that their property could be destroyed. No Hindu house was attacked, only Sikhs’ houses were burned and Sikhs were killed and burned alive. Most young Sikh males were killed and many young Sikh females were dishonored.

After Operation Blue Star and the Sikh massacre in Delhi, Sikh rebellions took over Golden Temple in order to restore the respect and honor it was entitled to, but the Indian government didn’t like this. They wanted the Golden Temple under their control. So another attack was launched on the Golden Temple in 1987, called “Operation Black Thunder”. This time only Sikh rebellions were the main target. Thousands were killed and dead bodies lay inside the Holy place for many days. My father was a Ragi in the Golden Temple during that time. He tells of the brutality of the Indian government who refused to remove the bodies saying that, those dead bodies were Sikhs’ and it was Sikhs’ responsibility to remove them. According to my father, all employees of SGPC volunteered to remove the bodies. My father said the bodies lay there for days in the hot sun because it was summer time. The bodies were so rotten that when my father tried to pull one body by its arm, the skin came off in his hand. People could not even enter the Temple because of the smell. Many trucks were loaded with dead bodies and all were burned with kerosene oil.

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

@someone’s rhetoric babbling trying to incite hindu-sikh differences :
Don’t even try that you sicko! You and your ringmasters have tried that before. You don’t a chance, Sikhs are well integrated part of India and they are part of our national identity. Stop pasting your garbage into this blog. How exactly your last oral-diarrhea is going to reform Pakistan? Great reformistani agenda you are exhibiting here.

But not everything is lost for you. Have faith in medical science. There is treatment for what you are suffering with, they will even put leather in your mouth. I went through some of your articles posted in past few months, based on the trend there, you’re going in the “right” direction.

Posted by Seth09 | Report as abusive

And a free suggestion for you Mirza, I don’t think KPSingh and others are following this article anymore. Post your garbage in newest blog entries and you will get response from real sikhs as well. You don’t need any context to post your spam anyways.

Posted by Seth09 | Report as abusive

Listen, your fellow chimps started the insults. When we retaliate with facts about your own country, don’t cry.

Show respect and we will reciprocate. Behave like a chimp and we will act like gorillas. got it? good.

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

@ your fellow chimps started the insults.

>>> haha someone’s whimpering like a li’l b*tch now! Why don’t u scroll up & see who started what. U R the one who started the insults, started the personal attacks on Rajeev & Mortal1 & started the the name-calling.

@ When we retaliate with facts about your own country.

>>> most of those “facts” were proven to be utter bullsh*t & lies & u did not have the b*lls to post comparable “facts” for pakistan. so fail haha

@ Behave like a chimp and we will act like gorillas

>>> gorillas? naah, more like filthy RATS haha!

If you really want a response from the sikhs to the BS u posted up there, do what Seth says.

Posted by BlackSabbath | Report as abusive

“Listen, your fellow chimps started the insults. When we retaliate with facts about your own country, don’t cry.

Show respect and we will reciprocate. Behave like a chimp and we will act like gorillas. got it? good.”

>> I know babe, its huge but you stroked it first.

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive

Oh i see the items about India with SOURCES CITED was proven wrong huh?? Okay, i will let amnesty international, human rights watch know they need journalism tips from dumb and dumber.

in the meantime you can read these reports:

http://reformistani.wordpress.com/2009/0 4/04/indian-perception-pakistan-brutaliz ing-kashmiris/

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

@ Oh i see the items about India with SOURCES CITED was proven wrong huh??
Posted by mirzausman

>>> Just citing sources isn’t enough because you are a liar & have no credibility whatsoever. U cited OECD as a source that India recieved $168.3 bn in aid & as it turned out, as per the OECD database, India had recieved only $40.9 bn in aid. That’s less than one third of the figure you stated. So, if you cite a source, also provide a link to the page which mentions the same things which u r stating. Also, nobody is interested in visiting your cr*ppy website. Whatever u wanna post, post it here.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

FYI,

http://reformistani.wordpress.com
blog started: March 2006
Blog Stats: 2,604 hits

http://changinguppakistan.wordpress.com/
blog started: January 2008
Blog Stat: 321,467 hits

Pakistan still has hope for a better future and that is so heartening to me as an Indian. You should try posting your revelations in that blog as comments – it would be interesting to see who is pushing real reforms? You or Kalsoom? And I’m sure, Real Pakistani commentators there would show you a clear mirror as well.

And btw, since I wasted some time on your site, here is a gem of a page from Mr. Usman’s blog:

http://reformistani.wordpress.com/2010/0 6/04/pakistani-homes/

The mere fact, that he considered uploading such a chu_tyapa (I’m sorry, my dictionary fails me here) on his -reformist- website shows how hollow some of these Pakistanis are from inside and how desperate they are in search of some identity. Really? Do you have no shame posting kids’ homework (showing ordinary brick and mortar edifices) to portray some sort of achievement. You could have posted the picture of that noble-prize winner and it would have made sense.

That single page shows your ECG, X-ray, ultrasound, MRI and what-nots. You don’t deserve any attention anymore!

Posted by Seth09 | Report as abusive

And btw, since I wasted some time on your site, here is a gem of a page from Mr. Usman’s blog:

http://reformistani.wordpress.com/2010/0 6/04/pakistani-homes/

The mere fact, that he considered uploading such a chu_tyapa (I’m sorry, my dictionary fails me here) on his -reformist- website shows how hollow some of these Pakistanis are from inside and how desperate they are in search of some identity. Really? Do you have no shame posting kids’ homework (showing ordinary brick and mortar edifices) to portray some sort of achievement. You could have posted the picture of that noble-prize winner and it would have made sense.

That single page shows your ECG, X-ray, ultrasound, MRI and what-nots. You don’t deserve any attention anymore!

Posted by Seth09 | Report as abusive

@ “how can your proud race possibly forgive the hindustanis for this sacrilege?”
Posted by mirzausman

That’s the difference between you & us. Instead of living in the past & scrapping old wounds over & over, we believe in ‘forgive & forget’ and move forward. Such forgettable incidents againts minorities are a part of the evolutionary process of every democracy in the world, including the US, where blacks were treated as slaves & lynched till the 60′s. The only thing that matters is the present & the future. In the present, the sikh community is one of the most prosperous communities in India & the future looks quite bright as well. Past is past but in present day India all Indians; hindus, muslims, christians etc are our brothers & we are one. Yes there are still a lot of things to be done before we come anywhere near perfection but Inshahallah, we’ll get there soon. I suggest that you pakistanis also forget the past & start living in the present & for your future and you’ll be much better off for it.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Here are some of the statements I read from Indians completely unprovoked

before I wrote a single post. These statement dehumanize a nation of 160

million people, wish death upon it, stereotype it as degenerate etc. etc.

“you do not deserve to be called human beings,”
“Civilian clowns like Zardari & Gilani”
“small times crooks from a neighboring country”
“usually fantasy, no strategy, calling American Daddy for help”
“I really want the US to strike hard at the epi-center of global terrorism

(pakistan) and not look back.”
“Pakistan like a bag of dirt”

This is perfectly fine with me but don’t whine when you get it back in spades.

When you engage in such provocation, you can be certain that the subjects of

your ire will air your own dirty laundary to the world. Careless citations notwithstanding, I assure you India has signficant dirty laundary.

I suppose you will never actually admit to understanding the gist of my

argument. India’s per capita income is ranked at 134 in the world [1],

Pakistan is at 139. You beat drums as if you have won the fifa world cup.

The average Pakistani does not understand how this is cause for not just

celebration but expression of overwhelming superiority.

As I have said before, it is not in the pakistani national character to brag about economic

indicators. We did not find much to celebrate when Pakistan’s per capita income, growth rate was higher than India’s “hindu growth rate” for decades. The sad fact is that war-torn, impoverished and isolated republic of Congo is still ahead of both of our countries.

You claim Pakistan is fractured by separatists – India has more factions and more intense
you talk about 1971 bengali heroics – we will talk about 1948 pakistani heroics
You claim Pakistan has rec’d aid – We will remind you superpower India has rec’d more
You insult muslims of south asia as an invader’s culture – we will mention aryans impact
you talk about kashmiri militants – we will remind you of mukhti bahini
you talk about our minorities – we will remind you of gujrat, srinagar, amirstar etc.
you talk about premji, shahrukh – we will mention ehsan jafri

Whatever it is, wherever it is in international rankings, we love our country just as much as you love yours.

if you insult us without provocation, be prepared for overwhelming retaliation.
if you attempt hegemony in south asia, be prepared for a fight
if you murder Kashmiris, don’t expect the slightest bit of mercy from us.
if you cross our borders, be prepared for mutually assured destruction

if you extend us respect, fairness and justice, you will not find a more hospitable people than the nation of Pakistan.

Regards.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cou ntries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

I suggest that you pakistanis also forget the past & start living in the present & for your future and you’ll be much better off for it.

>> How do the kashmiris live in the present? how do the dalits live in the present? How do the naxalites live in the present? How ancient is the year 2002 when Amristar was repated in Gujrat?

I would hardly label the blue star operation as anything but forgettable but if you have reconciled with such disrespect, who am I to complain. I am a bit repulsed by the fact that even here income/prosperity is used to compensage for sacrilege of such enormous magnitude. Is nothing sacred?

You are right, In that respect we are different.

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

Re: “you do not deserve to be called human beings,””

>>>
Don’t loose time and go see a doctor, it might be anything from ADHD to schizophrenia.

You have no idea how much of an idiot you are showing yourself. You pick “you do not deserve to be called human beings” from

“This is why some of you do not deserve to be called human beings, let alone muslims or Pakistani’s”

and claim it hurls insults at a nation of 170 million.

Here is the complete context of this statment:

“As a matter of interest why are you concerned with the genocide of Bengalis by the Pakistan military. We all know it that the Pakistan Army was not capable of even killing a fly, otherwise their commander would not have surrendered and not to miss the afternoon tea with his old buddy, the Indian commander. Should#nt the world be now concerned with the kashmiris who are being grilled by the Indian military? Let us be fair.”

–>This is why some of you do not deserve to be called human beings, let alone muslims or Pakistani’s. You have the nerve to deny the holocaust?

Posted by Seth09 | Report as abusive

“Seth”,

At least with mortal et al, one can learn something or at least expect your opponent to comprehend thinly veiled insults, or “get” a joke once in a while. I don’t wish to be rude but you are of inferior intelligence. Your knowledge of history is limited to a quick glance at wikipedia (the shining standard of good journalism). There is no fun in arguing with you. You wouldn’t know satire if it slapped you across your chimp-like face.

1. Rex minor who made the killing a fly comment is not pakistani. (He often criticizes pakistan in a civil tone)

2. The response was disporportionate. That’s fine with me just don’t cry when somebody puts up an article of Ehsan Jafri (Indian Muslim Parliamentrian) whose arms were hacked off by a hindu-fascist mob then lit on fire and urinated upon. All this with state-govt. complicity and electoral ballots with Muslim addresses. This didn’t happen in “ancient” times like 1761 or 1948 or your favorite 1971 but this century, 8 years ago in utopian modern republic of India.

3. A series of unprovoked statements displays a pattern of unchecked hatred. The point is don’t whine when it comes back. Modern Pakistan is the subject of Indian’s unbridled hatred and aggression for conquests and historic baggage of 3 centuries ago. Get over it.

4. How does one loose time? Does this require some sort of space-time continuum mind bending exercise? (Don’t worry about this one.. it’s the random blabbering of an incoherent paki)

Indian Muslims, indeed muslims worldwide, please notice the attack on the prophet (pbuh) being compared to (astagfarullah) mythological literature on prostituion.

Beneath the veneer of hindu secularism, lies the seething islamophobic anger of RSS inspired India.

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

Yeah, yeah…grapes are sour.

Posted by Seth09 | Report as abusive

No, no that’s sour grapes, not “grapes are sour”.

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

“if you attempt hegemony in south asia, be prepared for a fight”

—–
This from a “country” whose main source of income is begging….prostrating at the feet of Viceroy Clinton…

you are already sucking up to the “hegemony” of India, you will be sucking up even more in coming years….

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive

mirzausman,

I don’t know of any Indian on this blog or elsehwere, who claims that India is a “superpower”. Nobody is denying that India has a multitude of socio/economic/political problems on it’s plate. There’s poverty, illiteracy, health-care issues, hunger, infant mortality, income disparity, corruption, maoist movement in the east etc etc. But no one can also deny the fact that India is progressing faster than most countries in the world & is poised to be a future global power. You can be assured that just wishing it away or ignoring the many positives while highlighting the fewer negatives, won’t stop India’s rise. You’ve thrown a lotta stats & figures about India up there but if you compare those stats with the one’s from 10 or 20 yrs ago, you’ll see there’s a great deal of progression in them. For eg, in the 90s, more than 50% of India was illiterate but today that number stands at app. 30%. Also, back then, app. 40% of India was below the poverty line but today that number is down to 26%. And in these & every other catagory that you can think of, these numbers are expected to get better each year. As I said, there are still a lotta challanges but as India progresses & it’s population becomes more & more literate & aware, these challanges will be overcome. I very well know Pakistan’s figures in those catagories as well but I’ll leave it up to you to compare Pakistan’s current stats with the past & you’ll get an idea, where they are headed.

@”“you do not deserve to be called human beings,”

Firstly, as Seth pointed out, you’ve taken quotes out of context here & secondly, if you really wanna be fair, please also dig out all the filthy & abusive language many of your countrymen have used on this blog with refference to India, Indians, hindus, hindu gods & the countless unprovoked personal attacks, they have indulged in. Having said that, I agree that things do tend to get outta hand in the heat of the argument & everyone should watch their language.

I can very well respond to & refute most of your points but I won’t since I don’t wanna keep arguing like a juvenile. Also, it’s counter-productive & a sheer waste of time indulging in an endless cycle of claims, counter-claims & rebuttals. The way I see it, you have your own POVs & we have our own, you seem to be entrenched in your own perception of things & we see them differently. So, one trying to convince the other of the rightfullness of his POV, is nothing but an excercise in futilty.

I will however say this: A vast majority of Indians have no ill-will against Pakistanis & would like to see a stable, democratic, progressive, moderate & prosperous Pakistan and have freindly relations with it but at the end of the day, it’s your country & whatever you do with it is up to you guys. What Indians absolutely want, expect & demand from the Pakistani establishment, is to end it’s sponsorship of & eliminate all kinds of terrorism on it’s soil, which is directed towards Indian civilians. And please don’t insult our intelligence by calling them “kashmiri freedom fighters” or “non-state actors” because you know it better than anyone that they aren’t. The 10 pakistanis who sprayed bullets over children & women in Mumbai on Nov’08 were neither Kashmiri nor were they non-state actors. So, as long as your establishment does that & leaves India & Indians alone, you can be rest assured that Indians will leave you alone as well. Once there’s peace between the 2 countries, goodwill can be bulit & outstanding issues can be resolved amicaby.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

and one more thing about the dalits. U know who is the Chief minister of India’s biggest state U.P.? her name is Mayawati, she’s a dalit & she has enough money to buy a few pakistani towns.

Posted by BlackSabbath | Report as abusive

mirza usman,

In response to your lame effort to re-ignite the flames of 1984, as an Indian sikh, I second the sentiments expressed by Mortal1 above. Those unfortunate chain of events, occurred more than a quarter of a century ago. The perpetrator of operation blue star has been dead for 25 years & the perpetrator of the retaliatory attacks has also been dead for more than 20 years. As Mortal pointed out, what matters is today & today’s sikh community in India is not only prosperous financially but is living peacefully, happily & progressing with the rest of the country. We have moved on with this matter & we suggest, you do so as well and instead of wasting your time, attempting to re-ignite the flames in our house, you’ll be better served by trying to quell the wild fires raging in your own house, which are threatening to gut it to the ground.

Posted by jordan23 | Report as abusive

It appears there is one set of rules for Indians and another for the rest of the world. Indians can bring up 1971 without cause/relevance to the discussion at hand but any suggestion of 1984 or 2002 is either ancient history or pak treachery.

We too could say that in 1974 after Mujib’s assasination, Pakistan welcomed Bangladesh into the OIC, the two countries normalized relations. Conversely, in 1997, Bangladesh refused to renew its 25 year friendship treaty with India. Incredibly, Pakistan and Bangladesh now have better relations than Bangladesh/India.

If I can’t “dig up old wounds”, why can you?

Does any Indian here have the courage to own up to this hypocrisy?

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

and one more thing about the dalits. U know who is the Chief minister of India’s biggest state U.P.?

>> Most of Pakistan’s supreme leaders have been either Pushtun or Shia. They are well-integrated in Pakistan. Ahmadiyas hold many high positions in Pakistan — but I wouldn’t use the many seats of authority/position to wash my hands of my country’s shameful discrimination against this patriotric community.

When will you Indians understand that ceremonial postings or the success of a handful does not compensate for the decrepit conditions of millions?

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

You are already sucking up to the “hegemony” of India, you will be sucking up even more in coming years….

>> Challenge accepted. Will you be a good sport and not show up on reuters in 2020 to complain about pak’s varied assymetrical responses?

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

u r a f*cking troll, indeed, GTFO!

>> No, I am the irritant pakistani and voice of opposition interrupting the pak-bashing indian party on a post related to pakistan in a public forum.

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

@ If Mr mirzausman narrative of June 11 post contains even ten percent accuracy in its details, it is a very sad episode in modern times. No citizen should even try to justify or deny it. I for one would have burnt my Passport publicly, had I been an Indian citizen or immigrated out of the land. I can now understand the migration of Sikh population in the western world as far as in Canada. This was a horror, reminding students of the history about the horrors committed in the sub-continent during the sixteenth century.
Perhaps the good will people on this forum should regret the military assaults on civilians and stop accusing those who are expressing their opinions. Let us also make more use of the civil language. If any one of you are connected with the Amnesty International Org. today would not be the pleasant day for you.

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

PS
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

Challenge accepted. Will you be a good sport and not show up on reuters in 2020 to complain about pak’s varied assymetrical responses?
====

there are 2 assumptions here…should I say fantastic dreams out of touch with reality…

one – that you’ll be around as “pakishaitan’ in 2020
second- you don’t factor in the the UNVARIED assymetirc “response” from India..

keep it up…you are highly entertaining….and you make it clear to every one why pakishaitan today known world over for only 2 reasons —terrorism and begging..

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive

…one – that you’ll be around as “pakishaitan’ in 2020…

>> I think you are saying you will be a poor sport.

If Mr mirzausman narrative of June 11 post contains even ten percent accuracy in its details,

>> If any statistic is even remotely off or not-up-to-date, it will be discredited in its entirety.

————————————-
It appears there is one set of rules for Indians and another for the rest of the world. Indians can bring up 1971 without cause/relevance to the discussion at hand but any suggestion of 1984 or 2002 is either ancient history or pak treachery.

We too could say that in 1974 after Mujib’s assasination, Pakistan welcomed Bangladesh into the OIC, the two countries normalized relations. Conversely, in 1997, Bangladesh refused to renew its 25 year friendship treaty with India. Incredibly, Pakistan and Bangladesh now have better relations than Bangladesh/India.

If I can’t “dig up old wounds”, why can you?

Does any Indian here have the courage to own up to this hypocrisy?

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

@ Does any Indian here have the courage to own up to this hypocrisy?

>>> You have absolutely no right to talk about “courage” or hypocrisy when u did not have the stomach to utter one word about the bengali genocide by your army, after being asked repeatedly by Mortal & others. The difference between us & u is that we acknowledge the unfortunate & forgettable incidents like sikh riots & gujarat incidents etc, we condemn them, learn from them & move forward with the goal of bettering ourselves & never repeating them again. You Pakistanis, don’t have the b*lls or the moral courage to even acknowledge the horrific genocide of millions of bengalis & the other heinous acts committed by your cowardly army. we have yet to come across 1 pakistani who even acknowledges it, let alone feel remorseful for it.

@ We too could say that in 1974 after Mujib’s assasination, Pakistan welcomed Bangladesh into the OIC, the two countries normalized relations.

>>> Do you ever get tired of distorting facts & lying?
These are the facts: Pakistan refused to recognize BD after it’s independence & blocked it’s entry to UN with China’s help while India rallied international support for BD & it was ultimately recognized by the UN. Pakistan was also kicked out of the Commonwealth for it’s refusal to recognize BD.
As for OIC, Pakistan tried everything to block BD’s entry to the OIC. It finally succumbed to pressure from muslim nations & was forced to accept BD’s entry.

@ Pakistan and Bangladesh now have better relations than Bangladesh/India.

>>> says who? There’s nothing that backs this notion. India has been a supporter of democracy in BD & typically India-BD relations have been much better whenever there’s a democratically elected govt in charge rather than when there’s a military regime in charge. India has been investing in BD’s education, infrastructure & poverty reduction measures since it’s independence while BD is still waiting for an official apology from Pakistan for killing 3 million of it’s citizens.

Posted by BlackSabbath | Report as abusive

Your problem is you seek information that confirms your preconceived biases and ignore evidence that would prove otherwise.

Here is one of first my post dated jun. 1st.

———————————————–
“after months of heroic resistance by Bengalis against a shamefully ruthless Pakistani army, India was able to walk into Dhaka within 13 days . Most of credit should be given to the bloody & heroic struggle of the Bengalis as West Pakistani politicians and the army simply deserved to be humiliated for their immoral discrimination against Bengalis.”
———————————————-

Again, I ask why the double-standard on wounds of the past?

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

@”Your problem is you seek information that confirms your preconceived biases and ignore evidence that would prove otherwise.”

Classic case of POT CALLING THE KETTLE BLACK

At least you admit that problem exists somewhere.
Read that again and then go see a mirror and you will understand more about bias:
————————————————

You have no idea how much of an idiot you are showing yourself. You pick “you do not deserve to be called human beings” from

“This is why some of you do not deserve to be called human beings, let alone muslims or Pakistani’s”

and claim it hurls insults at a nation of 170 million.

Here is the complete context of this statment:

“As a matter of interest why are you concerned with the genocide of Bengalis by the Pakistan military. We all know it that the Pakistan Army was not capable of even killing a fly, otherwise their commander would not have surrendered and not to miss the afternoon tea with his old buddy, the Indian commander. Should#nt the world be now concerned with the kashmiris who are being grilled by the Indian military? Let us be fair.”

–>This is why some of you do not deserve to be called human beings, let alone muslims or Pakistani’s. You have the nerve to deny the holocaust?

Posted by Seth09 | Report as abusive

what is wrong with Reuters? does not allow comments to got through

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive

This one went thru…is it the length….then why for certain posters.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive

@ mirzausman
@Then you and your friends do a favor to the rest of humanity and use some of that per capita income on deodorant.”
—Personally speaking, I am doing OK on odor front….lol. Among my Tango dance partners are 2 Pakistani girls. Your those 2 sisters love to dance with me and the feeling is mutual. For the record: I respect both the girls; so do not worry about them (or my armpits….lol).

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive

@attack on the Golden Temple”
–mirzausman
—It was unfortunate incident. Worse was anti-Sikh attacks (riots is not proper word). Times have changed, Sikhs have moved on as the posters–Sikhs and non-Sikhs— have tried to drive home the point in your thick skull.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive

@mirzausman

@500,000 Indian troops attacking sikh temple:
—BS. For the size and geographical location of the temple, it must be 10 soldiers making a tower with feet on head to accommodate that many troops.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive

@mirzausman

Why are u opening your wounds?

Look Pakistan tried to do Bangladesh on India by separating Punjab and failed. Get over it now. There are good reasons for that beyond your understanding.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive

@mirzausman

@No, I am the irritant pakistani and voice of opposition interrupting the pak-bashing indian party on a post related to pakistan in a public forum”
–We need more of you in Pakistan. you will not let Pakistan progress and will not let it die. Then who needs nukes when we have you there.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive

Let’s assume that my response to then East Pakistan was grossly inadequate. Let’s assume it was not quite “quick” enough (jun 1st). Let’s even assume that I “never addressed the issue”.

How does this justify your double-standard for discussing history? Almost every Indian was aghast at my mere mention of the golden temple or gujrat. This is interesting since everyone was openly discussing “recent” events in 1971 before I brought up archeological artifacts of 1984 and 2002. I was told to “live in the present”. “Forget History”. No need to bring up “old wounds”. “Move forward!”. “We are better because we have moved on”

I see lots of subject-changes (Bangladesh OIC membership)
, diversions (Apparently Rajeev can tango his sweet, sexy buns off) and evasive maneuvers (Not 500k but 300k).

However, no one is addressing my actual question. Why do you have the privilege to bring up the past but not others?

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

I got the details on operation bluestar here: http://www.searchsikhism.com/bluestar.ht ml

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

@ However, no one is addressing my actual question. Why do you have the privilege to bring up the past but not others?

>>> you can bring up all the past u want, nobody gives a sh*t since u r already on the verge of being considered a psychopath/moron who isn’t taken seriously by anyone. Here’s your answer, when u dug up the 1984 sikh riots, 2 members of the victimized community (mortal & jordan23) told u to shut the f*ck up & move on since they have. When the bengalis start telling us to move on with he genocide, we’ll do that as well.

Posted by BlackSabbath | Report as abusive

@Seth 09
Since you refer to my comments, I take the liberty of confirming them. From my knowledge the Pakistan military did not commit, repeat, did not commit any genocide against the Bengali citizens. What I refered to the afternoon tea of the Pakistani General with the Indian General in Dacca is also accurate. It is not a secret in the military establishments that the Pakistan Generals were incompetent and naive to assume that the Indian army would not intervene im the domestic conflict of Pakistan when they saw Pakistan Army spread throughout the East Pakistan, leaving the capital Dacca unprotected. Indian army inplace of Pakistan army would have also surrendered in full grace, since both Pakistani and Indian Generals were actually buddies and went to the staff college and obtained their military education. Both armies are built as colonial armies and not as National armies. We have all seen the performance of the Indian army against the Chinese National army. The deployment of Indian military in Kashmir is also not a secret. Perhaps you should tell me if I have erred in my statement. I was a bit sarcastic though by appealing for your fairness. I am sorry we are all grown up people and I had no intention to irritate or provoke any one.
I do not see any heroism on the part of India or Pakistan
nor very tragic to have conflicts with each other. But I do consider the military use on civilians within their own county very shabby and not heroic in any sense.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

Rex Minor,

“But I do consider the military use on civilians within their own county very shabby and not heroic in any sense.”

I can’t agree more! It is indeed very unfortunate that Indian army is charged with committing excess not only in Kashmir but in some parts of East as well. Smoke can not exist without fire and Indian government must get its act together and be more responsive. But I’m more than sure they are trying hard and with the kind of human rights watch and media power, it just cannot go unchecked.

The domestic pressure is so huge that Indian governance can do nothing but improve itself or be prepared to get replaced by others who can do the job better. This, coupled with economic possibilities, will only improve things in future. Like any evolving democracy, India needs her time and we’ve already made so much progress compared to the situation 20 years ago. There are plenty of great challenges faced by India, but we’re working on them and we’ll make the best out of it.

—-

“From my knowledge the Pakistan military did not commit, repeat, did not commit any genocide against the Bengali citizens”

>> Well, one can always do more research and improve the knowledge.

Here are few rare videos from NBC news, should be informative, at the very least:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVg141VKx bs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0a-sxcF0Q Io&feature=related

Posted by Seth09 | Report as abusive

Rex Minor,

“But I do consider the military use on civilians within their own county very shabby and not heroic in any sense.”

I can’t agree more! It is indeed very unfortunate that Indian army is charged with committing excess not only in Kashmir but in some parts of East as well. Smoke can not exist without fire and Indian government must get its act together and be more responsive. But I’m more than sure they are trying hard and with the kind of human rights watch and media power, it just cannot go unchecked.

The domestic pressure is so huge that Indian governance can do nothing but improve itself or be prepared to get replaced by others who can do the job better. This, coupled with economic possibilities, will only improve things in future. Like any evolving democracy, India needs her time and we’ve already made so much progress compared to the situation 20 years ago. There are plenty of great challenges faced by India, but we’re working on them and we’ll make the best out of it.

Posted by Seth09 | Report as abusive

Now that my last comment is lost (it was not offending so no shock value :)), some problem with the site, I’ll just try to put the youtube links:

Here are few rare videos from NBC news, should be informative, at the very least:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVg141VKx bs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0a-sxcF0Q Io

Posted by Seth09 | Report as abusive

@Rex Minor
“From my knowledge the Pakistan military did not commit, repeat, did not commit any genocide against the Bengali citizens”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVg141VKx bs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0a-sxcF0Q Io

These NBC archives, should be informative, at the very least.

Well, one can always do more research and improve the knowledge.

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive

1. Instead of living in the past & scrapping old wounds over & over, we believe in ‘forgive & forget’ and move forward

2. You have absolutely no right to talk about “courage” or hypocrisy when u did not have the stomach to utter one word about the bengali genocide

3. Here’s your answer, when u dug up the 1984 sikh riots, 2 members of the victimized community (mortal & jordan23) told u to shut the f*ck up & move on since they have. When the bengalis start telling us to move on with he genocide, we’ll do that as well.

————————

It’s all clear now. By default, Indians can openly talk about the past. Upon reminders of more recent Indian history, it was determined that one should not discuss the past and move on. Upon inquiries regarding this double standard, discussion on historical events were permitted so long as “not one word was uttered” to address the past. When the one-word condition was met, it was decided that Historical events can be discussed so long as 2 people have reconciled with that specific event.

Your circular logic is too complex for my simpler pakistani brain. I think it is quite clear that the majority of the indian commenters here would prefer cult-like conditions i.e. no voice of dissent. You enjoy mud-slinging unless it comes back, then you want to change the rules.

while it’s been enjoyable, The quality and wit of commenters is deteriorating. Even the insults don’t inspire me. With all due respect to Mr. Rajeev’s personal hobbies, I am not learning anything of interest here.

I wish you all the best with proving each other 100% right 100% of the time.

Regards,
Mirza
Karachi, Pakistan

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

@mirzausman

@evasive maneuvers (Not 500k but 300k)”
—no idea what u r trying here. Read your quote below. You said 500K, i am not distorting ur statement. #s really do not matter and for the attack, posters here apologized and so did President and so did PM. To me it is never enough but there is some effort. May be Sikh community sees that while Bengalis do not.

@On May 31st the Indian government launched an attack on the Golden Temple with 500,000 troops. There were only 251 Sikhs inside to protect the complex of the Golden Temple.”
—mirzausman

@ Here’s your answer, when u dug up the 1984 sikh riots, 2 members of the victimized community (mortal & jordan23) told u to shut the f*ck up & move on since they have. When the bengalis start telling us to move on with he genocide, we’ll do that as well.”
–How sickening! who cares if you have moved on or not if the victims community has not. Bengalis have not moved on as far as forgiving Pakistan is concerned.

Few Bengalis have commented on the 1971 blog and do not give a damn 39yrs post genocide if PA apologizes or not cuz it means nothing now. For the record, Pak media apologized but not PA.

Now, if u r irked at Indians pulling history, did u not do the same by placing 1984 event. if you can pull out a historical even that is 26yrs old (1984), why are u angry at Indian pulling a 39yrs old (1971)?

Or may be you can tell us the relevance of 1984 to this blog? This is beyond me.

@The quality and wit of commenters is deteriorating. Even the insults don’t inspire me”
–look who is saying all this! lol
Now go back, read and see who started all this. It was you.
Do not dish out if you cannot take it.

i have free and friendly suggestion for you:

You write a lot. Make sure what you write is true. some time people (like u) have zero idea about a problem and write (Sikh issue as an example). if the intention is to recreate problem by propaganda, then go ahead. But when you come here with info from ur website, then get ready to face the heat.

@I wish you all the best with proving each other 100% right 100% of the time.
— I do not wish you the best for the kind of work you are doing.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive

Can I see sources for the number of troops and militants involved in Operation Blue Star. None of Usman’s numbers line-up with the sources cited in Wikipedia. Usman, where are your numbers from? Links please.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

@Usman,

You keep bringing up the points about India having poverty? How is that relevant? That’s what you fail to show.

So India has poor people. Is that supposed to be some kind of earth-shattering revelation?

Nobody is under the impression that India is some kind of Switzerland. That’s just a strawman you are using as an excuse to post inflammatory (and largely un-cited) crap.

China has the second largest economy on the planet. They’ve got tons of poverty . I’ve heard China described as “Europe on the coast. Africa in the interior.”

Heck, even the US has some really poor places. There’s plenty of trailer parks in the States that’ll show you their poverty. However, none of that means that the US is not the most powerful country on the planet.

Just like the US, I think we can also expect that India will still rise to a globally significant stature, even while they have a significant amount of poverty.

Keep in mind that with India have 3 times the population of the US, they only need to achieve one third the per capita GDP of the US to catch up.

That means India could surpass the US by achieving what in the old terms was known as Second World status.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

@kEiThZ
“Can I see sources for the number of troops and militants involved in Operation Blue Star. None of Usman’s numbers line-up with the sources cited in Wikipedia. Usman, where are your numbers from? Links please.”

I’ll tell you where his numbers are from. He meekly pointed out that he copied “facts” from Search Sikhism .com

The site is only registered to:
Khalistan
1361 5th Street
Turlock, California 95380

Now go figure. And you would think wikipedia was a shining standard for modern journalism. How can it have the “punch” of social studies textbooks of Pakistan. That is real history mind you, not like wiki that anyone can go and edit.

Posted by Seth09 | Report as abusive

How can it have the “punch” of social studies textbooks of Pakistan. That is real history mind you, not like wiki that anyone can go and edit.

Posted by Seth09

=====

ROTFL !!!!!!

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive

@Seth
Perhaps we have different understanding of the word ‘Genocide’! I was under the impression that after the surrender of the Pakistan Army without resistance, the Indian army were in a position to take the photographs of the atrocities commited by the PaK army and to gather the evidence from interrogation which went on for a long time and subsequently to charge the responsibles. Not to forget that the Pakistani army units were kept in the Indian prisons for a considerable duration. Have you some access to the info from the Indian Army archives? I almost thought that the Pakistan Army took the Bengali civilians as prisoners and kept them in a Guetanamo or AbuGhareb type prisons and totured them before eliminating them. The word holocaust is used by the historians for six million jews. the NBC video is very weak.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

About 45 of declassified documents from National Security Archives

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAE BB79/

re: “the NBC video is very weak”
:), What else can be expected from you.

Posted by Seth09 | Report as abusive

The word holocaust is used by the historians for six million jews. – Correct. Though if the 3 million official estimate of the Bangladesh genocide are true, it would put it nearly on par with the Holocaust and make it maybe second to the Holocaust for the number of people killed.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

The word holocaust is used by the historians for six million jews. – Correct. Though if the 3 million official estimate of the Bangladesh genocide are true, it would put it nearly on par with the Holocaust and make it maybe second to the Holocaust for the number of people killed.

Posted by kEiThZ
===

I have posted this before…forget about the disputes about exact numbers of Bengali genocide 3 million vs 1 million, etc…

The fact of the matter is the LARGEST, BIGGEST GENOCIDE OF MUSLIMS EVER since the origin of Islam 1400 years back has been perpetrated by the Islamic Republic of Pakistan.

Feel free to use this tidbit in the future!!

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive

If one can judge conversations as a barometer of loyalties and friendship (just like Mortal singh did with his “afghan” vendor friend) than may I humbly use cricket as reliable barometer of public sentiments in south asia?

Did you watch the Pakistan/India cricket game in Dhakka a few years back. The bangla brothers cheered for pakistan, waved pakistani flags and jeered the indian team. MUHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAAAA

Here are pictures from that game:

http://moinansari.files.wordpress.com/20 08/06/bangale-crowds-cheering-pak.gif

the post 71-generation has moved on, maybe you indians should too..

Long live bangladesh.

Posted by mirzausman | Report as abusive

yeah yeah, clutch every last bit of straw.

Posted by Seth09 | Report as abusive

[...] been due to retire in November. His future had been the subject of intense speculation for months, with opinion divided between the those who argued he should be given an extension for the sake of continuity, and those [...]

[...] been due to retire in November. His future had been the subject of intense speculation for months, with opinion divided between  those who argued he should be given an extension for the sake of continuity, and those [...]