Pakistan: Now or Never?
Perspectives on Pakistan
Between golf and war, Pakistan’s General Kayani’s future is debated
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The Pakistan Army prides itself on being an institution which rises above politics and personal ambition, committed to defend the interests of the nation. That this has not always been the case is demonstrated by its history of military coups, and a tendency of past military rulers, from General Zia ul-Haq to former president Pervez Musharraf, to impose a very personal brand of leadership. Where Zia pushed Pakistan towards hardline Islam, Musharraf aimed at “enlightened moderation” in a country he wanted modelled more on Turkey than on Saudi Arabia.
While no one expects the military to launch another coup, some of that historical memory is feeding into increasingly intense speculation about the future of Pakistan Army chief General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, who is due to retire in November.
The general who is arguably Pakistan’s most powerful man has given few clues as to whether he might seek an extension in office beyond November. But earlier this week Pakistani paper The News reported that the army’s corps commanders wanted him to stay on to see through the battle against Islamist militants in the tribal areas bordering Afghanistan. One theory doing the rounds is that Kayani could be appointed as chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Committee, with oversight over the air force and navy as well as the army, and with the role given enhanced powers to ensure he remains in command.
Kayani has been credited with restoring the army’s image in Pakistan - it had suffered from the popular resentment against Musharraf, who stepped down in 2008 . He has also made it clear the military had no intention of taking over the country, although it continues to call the shots on foreign and security policy. He has overseen some successful operations in the tribal areas and built a reasonable working relationship with the Americans.
A former head of the Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) agency, Kayani never gives public interviews and therefore remains somewhat inscrutable for those trying to gauge his attitude to the United States or Pakistan’s traditional enemy India. That said, he has always made his views clear when it seemed that either the United States or the civilian government were about to over-step the boundary into what the Pakistan Army considers its own domain. A suggestion floated by President Asif Ali Zardari in 2008 that Pakistan adopt a policy of no first use of nuclear weapons was quickly dropped after raising hackles in the army which determinedly guards its control of the nuclear arsenal.
Kayani spoke out fiercely against a reported incursion by U.S. ground troops in 2008 and in 2009 condemned provisions in the Kerry-Lugar U.S. aid package which called for greater civilian oversight of military appointments and promotions.
The civilian government has given mixed messages about whether it wants Kayani to stay on, but is seen as unlikely to challenge the military or the United States if either or both of them decide they need to keep him in command. In any case, after a rocky start, the civilian government and the military appear to have found – for now at least – an accommodation with each other in which the government relies on the army to fight the Pakistani Taliban in the tribal areas and knows better than to cross its red lines when it comes to foreign and security policy.
Pakistani analysts, journalists and officials I have spoken to tend to have mixed views on whether Kayani should stay on beyond November – although so far at least the discussion is rarely as animated as it can be on other subjects involving Pakistan.
On one side are those who say that Pakistan needs to build its institutions - from the government to the military to the judiciary – rather than allowing itself to be dominated, as has happened in the past, by a single strong personality. “Generally speaking we should not rely on people; we should rely on institutions,” argued one senior Pakistani journalist. “Otherwise you get the example of Zia and Musharraf, who took the country from one side to the other.” Moreover, the power of the army in the past has been blamed for never allowing democracy to mature – behaving as it does as an anxious parent who lets his child learn to crawl, but gets worried when he or she learns to run.
On the other are those who argue that Pakistan, above all, needs continuity right now – and nowhere more so than in the army. The United States is deeply unpopular in an army which while not Islamicised, is nonetheless manned by Muslims, many of whom are seriously unhappy about American policies following the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks, including its campaign in Afghanistan and invasion of Iraq. (I once had the experience of having to change the subject from Iraq to Kashmir during a lunch with some Pakistani army officers in order to bring us into calmer territory.)
No one is expecting disgruntled junior officers to rebel against their seniors because of Pakistan’s support for the United States – the army is extremely disciplined, as Anatol Lieven, a professor at Kings College in London, argues in this article for the National Interest. But the army is nonetheless involved in fighting its own people in the tribal areas and – so the proponents of an extension for Kayani argue – would cope with the strains better if he were to stay on.
It seems unlikely we will get an answer any time soon on whether Kayani will stay on after November - the inscrutable general has not in the past behaved like a man who would show his cards before he needed to. All we can say with near-certainty is what he might do if he were to retire. According to the official biography on the website of the army’s Inter-Services Public Relations wing, he is an avid golfer and President of Pakistan Golf Association.
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It is interesting to see that Pakistan’s reliance on its military is reinforced by indirect acknowledgment by Westerners like the author here. There is a sub-conscious belief that Pakistan’s military is the only relevant institution in that nation. In every other country, people discuss about civilian leaders. Here all importance is given to a military general. This attitude both in Pakistanis and their Western supporters will only lead to the strengthening of the military’s hold on power. Civilian leaders like Gilani are made to appear totally irrelevant. Somehow the article gives the feeling that Pakistan’s future depends on which general gets ascend the throne. I’d expect writers and media personnel to help control any damage to a system by supporting the right thing in their writings. Discussing who would be king through gossip like articles defeats that purpose. I am disappointed not to see any good articles that talk about Pakistan’s fledgling democracy, its emerging civilian leaders etc. Articles of that kind will change the public mindset. Instead of changing that mindset, if writers join the party, that is an act of irresponsibility. Anyway, this is a free world where freedom of expression should be respected. I’d leave it at that. However, I’d expect some degree of responsibility for writers in shaping the future direction.
Myra used to respond..what happened?
It almost reads like Umair wrote this article. Sadly articles like this are promotion of pakistan army.If Indians point out the fallacies, and untruths, we’ll be accused of “envy” and “bias”.
Stating pak army is not Islamized is like saying Jinnah was a secularist. Of course they are all “westernized” and “modern”. They train in the the US and paly golf. But they run jihadi terrorist militias, and recruit youngsters as fodder. How do you motivate them? Of course through Islamization of everything.
Here is the official web page outlining the motto of
the pakistan “army which while not Islamicised”:
http://www.pakistanarmy.gov.pk/
@ KPSingh01
Could not agree more.
In spite of all the guesses about what Kayani would do in the future; I believe that he has no intention of taking over the country, because the image of the army has already been ruined by Mr. Musharraf.
I believe Kayani is going no where until America have safely exited Afghanistan, with it still being called the USA(United States of America) instead of DSA (Divided States of America). Gen Kayani should stay, and so should Gen Shuja Pasha.
Pakistan’s policies with regards to Afghanistan are clear today as they were 3 decades ago. In those days, all promotions/retirements had been temporarily halted till Kremlin gave way. Only difference is, this time around, instead of USSR, its USA. Washington hasn’t really played the game any better than Moscow did. With all its might and intelligence support, USA has brought a bad name home. The veterans of the Afghan war tell another story while the American Govt. insists on something else. Surprisingly however, the media is still not convinced on bridging the gap by telling the people what exactly went wrong in Afghanistan.
The Talibans are still out at large, and with their renewed enthusiasm in winning this war, I doubt the fact that the USA is ever gonna get out of Afghanistan without blowing a big hole in its chest.
Whether Kayani’s term is extended or who replaces him will be decided by the US this time. The financial and military aid carrot will be dangled to force Pakistani army to tow in line. Most probably Kayani will stay on until Obama decides it is enough and pulls most of his troops out just in time before the next election campaign. The US will return after the election to continue its activities. So troop pull out will just be a drama staged to gain in the next Presidential election. It won’t matter who becomes the next American President. The situation in Af-Pak will still be intractable. So Kayani will be placed in charge of the Pak army until pressure at home is deflected off. Kayani is also needed to build confidence on the civilian government in Pakistan. The goal will be to help Gilani complete full term as PM of Pakistan. This is very vital to the stability of the region. For all these equations to be met, Kayani’s extension is needed. My forecast is that Kayani will stay on.
Gen. Kayani is an intelligent officer hailing from Jhelum, not sure of he studied at MCJ- Military College Jhelum before graduating from Pakistan Military Academy. He is senior, very much service oriented and Pakistan Army is engaged in operations with timelines. Pakistan needs someone like Gen. Kayani at the helm who can remains in control at home and interact with the west/ NATO etc at this critical moment. Not only that, we have the best officers in place currently, Gen. Ahmed Shuja DG ISI, Air Marshal Qamar Suleman Chief of Air Staff, CJSC Gen. Tariq Majeed. DG Strategic Plans Div LT. Gen Khalid. Salute, Gentleman, we need professionals like you, and hope clowns like Zardari remain confined to the lawn of Aiwan-E-Sadar Presidential Palace and don’t do any damage. Our politicians have no shame not the least. And this government is democratic but very weak, Army has to fill the vaccum. And the notion that the Army interferes in national matters is just because the lack of civilians and incompetence of politicians, their greed and inability to perform on matters of vital strategic national interests. Then why blame the Pakistan Army?
PakRanger:
“Washington hasn’t really played the game any better than Moscow did. With all its might and intelligence support, USA has brought a bad name home.”
-One mistake that both the USSR and USA made was to underestimate the resolve of Afghan nation to defend their country from foreign invaders. Today those lessons are being learnt the hard way, after a decade, and expense of billions of dollars and loss of thousands of lives, USA is loosing face at home and loosing the war in Afghanistan.
Any aspiring prospective future superpower looking to venture in Afghanistan? Doesn’t look like a good idea!
How long Kayani stays on, is entirely up to him. He’s the de facto ruler of Pakistan & it doesen’t matter whether he’s directly in charge or not because indirectly he controls everything. Civilian clowns like Zardari & Gilani are merely puppets at his disposal & mercy.
@”The Pakistan Army prides itself on being an institution which rises above politics and personal ambition, committed to defend the interests of the nation”
How about priding itself for being the institution which has single handedly radicalized, bankrupted & ruined the nation?
@Mortal1
How about priding itself for being the institution which has single handedly radicalized, bankrupted & ruined the nation?
Posted by Mortal1
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Pakistan military has the biggest share in Pakistan’s stock exchange. It operates commercial bank, airline, steel, cement, telecom, petroleum and energy, education, sports, health care and even chains of grocery shops and bakeries!!
Many, if not most paks will agree with your comments.
Umair,
Don’t worry. The West has learned lots of lessons from the Afghan war. You better hope your economy is in good shape before the last westerner leaves Afghanistan. This is less being seen as a NATO/US loss and more being seen as Pakistan scoring an own goal on its allies. Pakistan’s insincerity in this conflict won’t easily be forgotten for a while yet.
What I’ve found ridiculous is that Pakistan leadership structure. The Army is in charge. The other services play a distant second fiddle. Giving Kayani a CJCS post simply enforces that mentality further?
How is this at all good for Pakistan’s defence is beyond me. The two services that are arguably most vital in the early stages of any war with India would be the Navy (to keep SLOCs open) and the Air Force (to prevent the IAF establishing air superiority over Pakistan), are the ones relegated to second and third place in the command structure, while the holding force that could effectively stave off invasion by holdings its ground is given the leadership role. There’s a reason why, for example, countries like the UK and the USA will routinely award top leadership positions to naval personnel. They understand the importance of their sea LOCs. Or why they promote Air Force personnel. They understand the importance of new battlefields like cyber and space warfare.
Now if your military is less about the defence of the nation and more about running the country itself or managing other private interests, well then, such logic is irrelevant.
@ Keithz
Most Pakistanis seem to be of the opinion that all their problems will just disappear once the US/NATO troops withdraw from AfPak. I think, their problems will increase manifold & quite dramatically and the Talibanization of Pakistan will become imminent.
@Any aspiring prospective future superpower looking to venture in Afghanistan? Doesn’t look like a good idea!
–Umairpk
Umair: I think this time there will be small times crooks from a neighboring country, who already were there before 9/11. They will be back in business—Afghans need them them or not.
@one mistake that both the USSR and USA made was to underestimate the resolve of Afghan nation to defend their country from foreign invaders…….”.
—–So yes I agree that neither those superpowers nor these crooks understand that Afghans do not want them and all of em are invaders.
@How about priding itself for being the institution which has single handedly radicalized, bankrupted & ruined the nation?”
–Mortal1
—Ask Umair and he will tell u that was in the best interest of the nation.
Now if your military is less about the defence of the nation-
Posted by kEiThZ
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Well..well…from a professional perspective pakistan army has never been about actual fighting. If you look at each and every war and semi-wars they started with India it was usually fantasy, no strategy, calling American Daddy for help…help after initial adventure.
Besides running bakeries, the other activities are getting posh real estate, sending their sons and daughters to US to get green cards..Gen Musharaff has settled his son in Boston, sent poor soldiers to perish in the barren mountains of Kashmir in 99 for the glory of Islam.. didn’t even collect the bodies. Indian army had to give them Islamic burials.
Such has been always the “professionalism”, “western” “secular” “modern” outlook of pakistani generals.
Shouldn’t this Reuters news item be a part of this blog?
“U.S. studies options for possible Pakistan attack” – Reuters
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE64 S0CX20100529
Amen to that:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37410800/ns/ world_news-washington_post/
I really want the US to strike hard at the epi-center of global terrorism and not look back. Pakistan will do nothing. They are very good at switching sides and rewriting history. Look at what Musharraf did after 9/11. These guys only thump their chests and as soon as they get the real blow, they fall and pray.
Keithz:
“Don’t worry. The West has learned lots of lessons from the Afghan war. You better hope your economy is in good shape before the last westerner leaves Afghanistan. This is less being seen as a NATO/US loss and more being seen as Pakistan scoring an own goal on its allies. Pakistan’s insincerity in this conflict won’t easily be forgotten for a while yet.”
-I can understand your feeling it looks frightening to think of the moment when you will loose the war and leave Afghanistan.
“Lagane ai the aag jo gulshan ko, wo sholey apne Lahu se Bhuja diye tum ne”.
Translation: They who came to burn the garden, You extinguished those flames with your blood”.
Today if westerners are loosing the war in Afghanistan, it is because you are cowards. Look at the statistics and number Pakistan’s 2700 officers and men laid down their lives (Pakistan alone). Entire US and 42 nations NATO casulaties in Afghanistan are less then half of Pakistan’s. Pakistan has almost 800 border posts along with Afghan border, how many does the colaition have?
Do not worry about Pakistan’s economy, rather worry about the sitution in US, job losses, helthcre, financial crisis in Europe.
Ironically, the 1980s Afghan war diverted Soviet attention from Warsaw pct nations, which took the opportunity to become more rebellious. The war itself was an economic drain and failure in the war gave the opponents of Soviet regime an increasing platform to attack it. All these factors contributed to the downfall of USSR.
I wish you best of luck in Afghan war again this time. Watch out for Cuba, Venezuela, China, North Korea, Iran.
And remember, the score will be settled, betrayal for betrayal. You used us to defeat communism and ditched us. We played a razor sharp double game and you feel devastated. We will be more than happy to see your backs, tody we face a chllenging security environment in Pakistan whereas before ours was a more peaceful country.
Lastly, to the reports of US studying options to attack Pakistan. Well such a move will unite everyone in Pakistn, from the moderate, to the militry to the extremists. The answer should be, suspend all diplomtic relations with US, than just as calm before the storm and boom in Tehran. Pakistan should secretly assist Tehran to develop nuclear bomb within months. Pakistan should keep all its cards ready.
BTW being from a military family myself, I have all the respect for the fallen coalition soldiers in Afghanistan and their families. If only colaition can work with Pkistan than against Pakistan,will you find a sincere ally in Pakistan. Our own house is on fire and you tell us we betryed you is just ridiculous. The fire you started after invading Afghanistan the border areas of Pakistan are ablaze and fireballs are raging in Pakistani cities. But dont worry, we will face it, and fix it.
@ “Today if westerners are loosing the war in Afghanistan, it is because you are cowards.” Posted by Umairpk
Nope. It’s largely because your vile & slimy army played both sides while appearing to be an “ally” for almost 7 years. If they had been sincere, there’s a good chance this thing would’ve been wrapped up some time back. A bulk of the Pakistani casualties that you mention, have occurred in the last few years when your army has been compelled to face the monsters which it created, nurtered & sheilded for a long time. The biggest mistake that the US/NATO made was to place the trust in your army, which it never deserved in the first place. These are the facts & reciting verses from odes won’t change that.
@ “We played a razor sharp double game and you feel devastated.”
And who exactly has this “razor sharp” double game that you boast of, devastated? As we speak, your country is rife with violence, ethnic strife, radicalism, poverty, unemployment, illiteracy & facing global isolation and we are the one’s who are devastated? How delusional & irrational can you get man!
@ “The answer should be, suspend all diplomtic relations with US, than just as calm before the storm and boom in Tehran.”
ROFL. Your threats are really hillarious. Talk is cheap buddy. It’s easy to thump your chest & declare “we’ll do this & we’ll do that”. Once your country is officially declared a “Rogue Nation” by the US & allies & slapped with hard economic sanctions, how do you propose to survive without aid, loans & with economic sanctions? As it is your country has no economy to speak of, whatever little bit of foreign revenues it earns is from exporting agricultural produce & fabric/apparel and a bulk of it is to the US & allies, so how exactly will you survive? The reality is that despite all your tough talk & fantasies, Pakistan will be bankrupt & on it’s knees within no time.
Also, don’t count so heavily on China. I’ve spent enough time amongst Chinese folks to know that they are one of the shrewdest, most unemotional & self centered breed of humans on this earth. Loyalty hardly means much to them in front of their economic interests. A bulk of their economic interests are tied with the US & west and if pressured a little, they’ll drop Pakistan like a bag of dirt before you can even blink. So don’t expect them to bail you out, when you are isolated.
@ “The fire you started after invading Afghanistan the border areas of Pakistan are ablaze and fireballs are raging in Pakistani cities.”
The fire in your house is actually from the torches which your army had been using to burn it’s neighbours but an accident (9/11) occurred, it’s own backyard caught afire & now it’s become uncontrollable.
Irrespective of the Indian serial-pak haters are saying, Pakistan has always been extremely supportive of America. We live in a tough neighborhood and its hard for a poor country to do everything.
http://reformistani.wordpress.com/2010/0 3/28/pakistans-support-of-america/
Pakistan has not been the aggressor. The Indians here are lying. India has been the aggressor.
http://reformistani.wordpress.com/2010/0 4/30/pakistanaggressor/
@UmairpK,
Sometimes I wonder.. if such is the mentality of a educated Pakistani citizen, who prides himself by the defeat of US/NATO, as if it is victory for Pakistan. You still fail to understand Umair that, this is not only defeat for US/NATO, it is defeat for entire Pakistan nation. And it will not be very long after US leaves, the victorious extremist will govern your nation. US will have two choices about your nukes before they leave, either to clean then up while leaving Af-Pak or wait to see the developments in Pakistan and hope that there will be non-extremist government in Pakistan. There is very little possibility of non-extermist government considering the current affairs in Pakistan.
And then US will have no other option but to bomb your nuke sites so that they do not fall into hands of these fanatics. Westerners will not like that but they will not have any other option. And at this time US will be merciless. Remember WW2?
Umair,
You still haven’t answered my question about the leadership changes. How is this good for Pakistan? How is it good to have one service dominate the command structure so thoroughly?
The Indians are going through this too. Thankfully (for them), they have civilians who can balance things out. How will Pakistan handle this? The PAF needs tons of new equipment. How do you think an Army CJCS will handle PAF requests for new jets? How do you think an Army CJCS will handle PN requests?
You can change the subject. But ultimately, the question remains unanswered. How is this good for Pakistan?
mirzauman,
What are the Indians lying about? I don’t recall Mumbaikars trying to plant car bombs in Time Square.
It’s clear in poll after poll that Pakistanis have no love for the US or the West. Except for when they get visas. Then they move here, refuse to integrate and complain about how bad the West is and how their children are being corrupted.
Worse is the fact that for every dollar more the Americans give, the hatred seems to grow. Yet, American patience seems to be incredible. I can’t recall another country in their history that they have treated so well. They sent the Japanese atom bombs for less than what Pakistan has done to the US (fostered a safehaven for anybody and everybody that wants to attack the US, its allies and its interests). More Americans have died as a result of the Taliban and Al Qaeda (sheltered by Pakistani proxies in Afghanistan or the FATA) then died in Pearl Harbour. Think about that for a second.
The US is upset. It’s not because of what the Indians are saying. But because they feel betrayed by Pakistan. The only problem is that their hands are tied right now in Afghanistan. The day that commitment ends, is the day the kid gloves come off.
And really, what’s left to discuss when the son of Pakistani generals is attempting to kill innocent Americans at home. At that point, you really have to wonder how sincere Pakistanis really are.
mirzauman,
I read your articles about Pakistani support during the cold war. Forget that historical BS. There is no sympathy for that on this side of the pond. Not while American troops are dying because of the complicity or unwilling of Pakistanis to take action against “non-state actors”, and not while Pakistanis are actively trying to kill American citizens.
Beyond that, the relationship was a two-way street. Pakistan didn’t do those things out of the goodness of its heart. Pakistan co-operated with the US because of its own interests and worries about the Soviets. You can thank Charlie Wilson. If it wasn’t for him, nobody would have cared.
Pakistan and the US needed each other during the Cold War. That is not the case any more. If Afghanistan does not get stabilized, the West will simply leave and the US will start cracking down on Pakistan. Sanctions, visa restrictions, severe pressure on Pakistan’s allies (China). Maybe you guys can coddle up to Iran. Who knows, instead of London or New York, maybe Tehran will be the new hotspot for Pakistanis.
In partition Punjab, Bengal, Sindh (Kachh) etc all were divided. It was J&K which was not divided and its accession to India was in totality by its ruler. J&K was ruled by Hindu ruler and was having varied religious beliefs, ethnicity and culture with Muslim majority. As regards to scares of partition, they are visible everywhere on both sides of the border whether it is Punjab, Bengal, Sindh (Kachh) and J&K is not exception to it. Similarly, after partition the sectarian clashes in Indian side are more in States where mass migration of partition has taken place. However, with the passage of time the fear psychosis in Muslims as to discrimination (being a Hindu majority country) existing at the time of partition continued dipping and at present such fear psychic is a matter of bygone era.
The Muslim population of India is any time more than the entire population of Pakistan. The Muslim majority State of J&K and Union Territory of Lakshadweep are Jewell in our secularism with their diversified ethnicity and culture. The fear psychic in Kashmir valley in the past was compounded, as it was cut off from rest of India in the absence of road/rail link and political interference of our neighboring country. Few separatist leaders, terrorists and across LOC/ Border activities are still trying to play with minds of the people in the name of religion and citing scattered incidences of over reaction by armed forces. The sacred religion of Islam is being used for politicking by such people. The majority of educated youth of valley understand it very well which is also reflected in this poll results. The J&K’s accession to India is in writing, legal, binding and enforceable not only in international law but also on all Indian citizens living in any State/ Union Territory of India including J&K.
To my reading no part of the Constitution of India or laws applicable in IHK is undemocratic or unfavorable for its residents. The residents of J&K have full rights as per the treaty of its accession. As to the ‘right to self-determination’ – will anybody enlighten us about the list of rights which at present are not available to Kashmiri as compared to other citizens of India? And which the Kashmiri want in the name of self-determination? To my opinion in every social set up we sacrifice some of our personal rights for social order. These sacrifices are at all levels i.e. from individual to family, from family to neighborhood, from neighborhood to community and so on. Self determination of all rights to my opinion may lead to Jungle Raj. So please first list the rights desired and see whether such rights are available anywhere else? Similarly, all religions whether it is Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, Sikhism or any other are also having some social orders wherein individuals are asked to sacrifice their certain rights. Please also list and analyze the practices prohibited by different religions to understand rights of self determination you lose by adopting a particular religion? In India, we proudly sacrifice our certain rights of self-determination (excluding fundamental rights) to our elected representatives in Indian Parliament which is representative of 1.2 billion citizens (i.e. World’s largest).
I have no hesitation in writing that one of the causes which hampered the growth of J&K is its various commercial and land laws. They are skewed in favour of its permanent residents severely affecting in J&K the prospects of industrialization, trade and employment generation as compared to the States of Himachal Pradesh and Uttaranchal. It is unfortunate that few vested interests in J&K valley are taking advantage of lack of education, lack of employment opportunities and lack enlightenment of youth and are misguiding them. In a free society like India, the need of the hour for all of us is not only read history, but to understand it and take future decisions as to where we have fruits of prosperity. Now the challenge before the secessionist elements in J&K is only to prove their worth in State elections and change undemocratic laws, if there is any, in J&K State list. For them further challenges of suggesting amendments in Indian Constitution come only after that?
As regards to Kashmir issue – Please also enlighten me whether the aspirations of Kashmiri are represented by hooligans on streets or by gun tottering terrorists? It is funny when the people who could not ensure democracy in their own land speak for plebiscite in IHK? Please note that the democratic India is a guiding light for entire world and is being respected like that everywhere. In a free society like India, people very well understand as to where they have the fruits of prosperity and the poll represent this fact.
I believe that free and frank opinions are never biased even if they are emanating from within a country or from across the border. However, it is a collective wisdom of opinions which make governments to think and act. The flow of information will at least help general public on both sides of the border at least in agreeing that we disagree on certain issues.
After reading the various well articulated comments, I find some salient facts missing;
.Both India and Pakistan have not reached a Nation status. Let me clarify,after the departure of the colonial masters, the Brits left the country with a more or less a structure as they found it, a divided land made up of an ethnic mix ruled by war lords including maharajas and sultans.
. They left the format as agreed between the new colonialist educated leaders of the All India congress and muslim league parties.
. After a lapse of over sixty years both countries have mad a very little progress, except for developing lethal weapons capable of eliminating the entire population of the sub-continent and more.
. The Indian leaders have done better in economics, something they were good at even during the British Raj. The Pakistan leaders got some Pseudo intellectuals from India in the beginning, but later had to suffice with semi-educated so called military chiefs who in their practice for democracy kept on turning the clock back and forth partly giving it to civilians and then taking it back whenever the military man emerged. Now they are talking about Gen. Kyani who is trying to prove his mettle with The Pashtoons. His predecessory Indian born military head felt comfotable in nit pricking the strong neighbour With the larger military at whose hands Pakistan has suffered the humiliating defeat and like a bull terrier was unable to let the bite go, until he was clobbered on his head by the afro American adversary.
His prize was the title of a ‘Dog’ given to him for his services by the unarmed civilian lawyer citizens.
. Both countries have not yet managed to raise a National army to defend their borders, and not see their main task in suppressing their own citizens. And yet be ready to surrender as soon as the opponent is stronger. Both armies have won the Guiness record of having surrendered in full combat ready force on the battle ground. We all know the loss of Eastern wing of Pakistan and the loss of so called Indian territory to Chinese. Your armies today in the new millinium are still engaged in capturing territoris, not caring the least for the citizens of the territories.
. If I were you, I would be ashamed to admit being an Indian or a Pakistani. India has not overcome their prejudice agaist different religions and csate system. Pakistan on the other hand has been able to create divides among the muslims and among the people of different ethnic, cultural and language divide.
. Even today they allow a citizen from a foreign country to become the President of Pakistan and those who migrate do not demonstrate an absolute loyalty for their adopted country.
I am sorry as an observer I have stated this and apologise for hurting your pride in things as you see it. I strongly believe that India as the largest of the two has the potential to become a great nation, but their leaders must give way to the young ones who can handle the new world not dominated by the USA or the western nations but one made up of great Nations not on account of the territory but its people.
Have a nice day.
PS
The comments are written by “Rex Minor” and not Pakistan, which he blog prints it.
@”KeithZ” Indian masquerading as American,
The value of Pakistan through the cold war, soviet-afghan war and post 9/11 is well understood by real Americans. Only an indian agitator would call Al-Qaeda a proxy of Pakistan.
@Satish,
“fear psychosis” is a wonderful sugar-coated term for India’s murder of 100,000+ kashmiris and rape of 9000+ women and girls.
If you think Kashmiris demanding liberation from India are a minority:
I provide you exhibit A:
http://reformistani.wordpress.com/2010/0 2/27/straight-from-the-kashmiris-mouth/
Only an Indian will refer to India as the “guiding light to the world”. Nobody talks like that. Not even real exemplary models i.e.: America, China ,EU, Scandinavian countries etc.
Here is exhibit B: India’s wonderful behavior towards neighbors:
http://reformistani.wordpress.com/2010/0 5/30/pakistanaggressor/
Please stop believing your own hype.
Thanks.
@ mirzausman,
With all due respect, nobody gives a damn about the “exhibits” from your reformistani site, which is no different than tons of other hate-mongering, fact-twisting & history-distorting Pakistani propaganda sites floating on the web. You should present these “exhibits” at Pakistani blogs & sites, as I’m sure they will much appreciatated & willingly bought there. You, trying to convince everyone that Pakistan is a true “supporter” of the US is futile in light of your country’s support (at some point or the other) of every terror outfit which is out there to destroy american interests & kill americans and also in light of your “non-state actors” planning attacks on american soil, as we apeak.
@ “fear psychosis” is a wonderful sugar-coated term for India’s murder of 100,000+ kashmiris and rape of 9000+ women and girls”
Kashmir has been discussed quite extensively on this blog by both Indians & Pakistanis. But how about you (or any Pakistani) having the guts to take responsibility of your army’s genocide of millions in East Pakistan in 1971?
Immortal Sir,
My feelings are eternally injured. While I recover, could you answer the following questions?
1) could you kindly point me to the lies in my post?
2) May I humbly ask who appointed you moderator of this public forum and this particular post about PAKISTAN???
3) Since you have a monopoly on truth, perhaps you could enlighten us with some dubba-dubba-ding-ding about al-qaeda being a proxy of pakistan. I am particularly interested in why my government asked its ‘proxy’ to kill 3,000 of our soldiers , attack our prime minister , president, institutions and inflict a devastating blow to our already weak economy.
@ mizausman
My friend, like most Pakistanis, you either seem to suffer from selective amnesia or believe in your own set of facts, manufactured ‘by & for Pakistanis only’. Anyways. let me refresh your memmory in an effort to remove the cobwebs from your brain.
It’s hardly a secret that untill 9/11, your army either bred & nurtured or was in bed with most jihadi terror oufits in the world including Al Quaeda & Taliban as part fo their “startegic depth policy”. They either supported them explicitly with money, weapons, training, recruits, intelligence etc or implictly by renting out your ‘pure land’ as havens & sanctuaries for these groups to wage jihad against the US, west, Israel, India etc.
When 9/11 happened & Richard Armitage threatened to bomb you guys back to the stone age, Mussharraf reluctantly became an unwilling ally in GWOT. Taking advantage of a bufoon in the White House, for 7 years, your slimy army played the double game of running with the hares & hunting with the hounds. It played both sides & continued it’s support for most jihadi outfits while appearing to be an “ally”. Once the US administration woke up to this double game, it again pressurized your army to fight the monsters which it had created & nurtered. Sensing that many of the terror outfits (like the TTP, JeM, JeV etc) have turned against their former masters, your army was compelled to fight them but now the frankenstein monster seems to have grown out of proportion & out of control is out to destroy it’s creator. It’s a classic case of “one’s chickens coming home to roost”. But even today, your army doesen’t seem to have learned any lessons & continues to sheild groups like the Afghan Taliban, Haqqani & Hekmtyar networks, LeT & many others in hopes of keeping their “strategic depth” alive inspite of the fact that your country is rife with radicalism, extremism & intolerance and on the brink of bankruptcy & failure. These are the facts as most non-Pakistanis see them.
Now, will you answer my question about the genocide of 3 million bengalis conducted by your army in East Pakistan in 1971?
(BTW: My screenname is ‘Mortal’ & not ‘Immortal’ and I’ve never claimed to be the moderator of this blog)
@Mortal1
You reckon there is a chance of sending several great Indian born muslims from Pakista back to their homes in India? One could start with Pervez Musharaf. They are slowly becoming a liability for the UK, where they have started buying property to reside after their prosecution in Pakistan. This is not uncommon that the home country take back the fugitives.
As a matter of interest why are you concerned with the genocide of Bengalis by the Pakistan military. We all know it that the Pakistan Army was not capable of even killing a fly, otherwise their commander would not have surrendered and not to miss the afternoon tea with his old buddy, the Indian commander. Should#nt the world be now concerned with the kashmiris who are being grilled by the Indian military? Let us be fair.
@Mortal1
You reckon there is a chance of sending several great Indian born muslims from Pakista back to their homes in India? One could start with Pervez Musharaf. They are slowly becoming a liability for the UK, where they have started buying property to reside after their prosecution in Pakistan. This is not uncommon that the home country take back the fugitives.
As a matter of interest why are you concerned with the genocide of Bengalis by the Pakistan military. We all know it that the Pakistan Army was not capable of even killing a fly, otherwise their commander would not have surrendered and not to miss the afternoon tea with his old buddy, the Indian commander. Should#nt the world be now concerned with the kashmiris who are being grilled by the Indian military? Let us be fair.
PS Richard ARmitage was facing the Indian born soldier and got away with the threat. Let the USA try this weapon in Afghanistan through his so called bulldozer and see if he is able to come out alive. The Pashtoon military Chiefs including straight forward Ayub Khan would have not let the Afro American General or his assistent. In Afghanistan there are no graves for foreigners.
@Pakistan you said:
“As a matter of interest why are you concerned with the genocide of Bengalis by the Pakistan military. We all know it that the Pakistan Army was not capable of even killing a fly, otherwise their commander would not have surrendered and not to miss the afternoon tea with his old buddy, the Indian commander. Should#nt the world be now concerned with the kashmiris who are being grilled by the Indian military? Let us be fair.”
–>This is why some of you do not deserve to be called human beings, let alone muslims or Pakistani’s. You have the nerve to deny the holocaust?
Your Army had guns, weapons, tanks and organization structure to mass kill unarmed innocent civilians and you claim that even with this, they did not have the ability to harm a fly? go get your brain cleaned out, my friend, this is why you country will continue to reap horrible Karma….Holocaust deniers, deserve nothing, let alone statehood.
There is undeniable and unrefutable proof of the Pak Army genocide, videos of Pak Army soldiers popping Bengali’s in the head with a bullet.
On the issue of Kashmiri’s you troublemaking Pakistani’s have used the issue of religion to create agitational elements into Indian Kashmir and perverted the youth away from progress, education and learning and religiously politicized this agitation like a virus to make trouble in Kashmir. The children being born everyday are unaware of the terrorists your country sent into India in the 80′s after the soviets left Afghanistan. You Pakistani’s kept terrorists employed full time to cross the LOC to create terror cells and agitators and pervert the Islamic Youth in Kashmir with the goal of radicalizing them and making them blind to the fact that they are being used.
That is the truth. You Pakistani’s have brought only suffering, bloodshed, war, suicide jihad, hatred upon the world and your neighbours. I the name of religious politics, nothing constructive or redeeming has come out of Pakistan for 60 years, for mankind.
Kashmir will be fixed, once Afghanistan is done. The U.S. and western powers have plans to fix all of your trouble in the region, including Kashmir. India will not have to lift a finger, we will cross our arms and watch from across the room, as you get slapped back and forth and choked to submission. Brace yourself, it is coming.
@Pakistan,
On the issue of surrender, go and read the 1917 war history on the internet regarding the 1971 war. Your dufus general Niazi and his mighty band of fools stretched had the grand dream of annexing all of Northern India to Islamicize it and go on a mass genocide campaign, that was the end goal.
These selfish ignorant buffoons grossly miscalculated and extend your unqualified army way beyond its reach, that is why your country surrendered.
India did not have the heart to massacre your 90,000 POW soldiers, as they are Indians, why would we kill our own people, even though they call themselves Pakistani’s?
Grow up and wake up. India has handled your country with kid gloves each time. Each time, we had the ability to totally dismantle your army and erase your borders, if we had wished to do so, India always let you fools go back to your little holes, with your tails between your legs, in big brother fashion.
As Indians, we never had the heart to bring mass devastational killing, war, or huge casualties on Pakistani’s, so let’s be absolutely clear and understood on that issue. India could have chose to unleash the full might of its much larger Army, in 1971 and before.
As I said, you people are Indians, we see no purpose in killing Indians, nothing would be gained from that kind of loss. That is why your POW’s were returned unharmed, in a respectful manner. If it had been the other way around, you Pakistani’s would have butchered the Indian POW’s and performed all sorts of religiously sanctioned atrocities upon them, to show your people how tough you are.
We chose to let you see another day, and each time your foolish Army masters dragged your blind population into further wars, which keep weakening your country. Now the U.S. is here to finish your mess. Once they leave Afghanistan, they are coming for Pakistan. Your western masters are tired of being lied to and the American public is tired of seeing their bilions of dollars washed away into PA pockets, while their soldiers die and American families sacrifice their loved ones to make the world safer from Pakistani born terrorism.
@Keithz, Pakistan, Umair,
Thank God that the security in the U.S., as sloppy and mis-co-ordinated as it is, having such a large bureaucracy, it still functions 99 % of the time.
As you have all heard the security officials in the U.S. say in the wake of the latest U.S. Times Square attack, it is not a matter of if and when the next terror attack originates from Pakistani’ soil.
Billions of dollars of U.S. taxpayers money sent into Pakistani Army pockets, and still there are terrorist training camps there, plotting day and night to harm Americans.
If another attack happens on U.S. soil, you can expect the security situation and stance towards Pakistan to take a 180 degree turn. You can expect the U.S. fifth fleet getting ready and geared up to surgically pound any ground they wish to eliminate threats based on actionable intelligence. At that point you can expect delicate balance of law and order to descend into utter chaos in Pakistan. Every problem there will come out into the open and become uncontainable. That is a a very bleak scenario and let’s hope it never happens to come to that.
We hope that Pakistani’s are sincere in giving the U.S. taxpayers their money’s worth as well as some progress while they sacrifice their loved ones in Afghanistan.
@ “You reckon there is a chance of sending several great Indian born muslims from Pakista back to their homes in India? One could start with Pervez Musharaf”
Posted by pakistan
Your attempts at re-writing history are becoming more absurd by the day. If you want to send Pervez Musharraf back to India since he was born in India, how about sending the whole of Pakistan back to India since it was also born out of India? And while we’re at it, lets just re-draw the world map!
Pervez Musharraf, AQ Khan, Zia ul Haq etc were born in India but they were injected with an anti-India virus, the minute they moved to Pakistan & are/were as or more un-Indian as any other Pakistani.
@”As a matter of interest why are you concerned with the genocide of Bengalis by the Pakistan military.”
I think G-W has said pretty much everything I’d like to say on that so I’ll avoid the redundancy.
@”Let the USA try this weapon in Afghanistan through his so called bulldozer and see if he is able to come out alive.”
Did you sleep through the period immediately after 9/11 buddy? The US did indeed threaten the Afghan commanders (Taliban at the time) to hand over Bin Laden or be bombed (although, not back to the stone ages since Afghanistan hardly ever got out of the stone ages) & when they failed to comply, Afghanistan was ineed bombed the hell out of.
Also, your confidence & praise of the “pustoon warriors” is quite misplaced & exaggerated. Yes they are good fighters but it has a lot to do with the fact that they haven’t done anything else all their lives & that’s all they have inherited from their ancestors. Besides that, they lag behind pretty much everyone else in every area of human development, be it education, social or economic progress.
@Immortal
You were not able refute factual statements in my post; so fail.
Nothing in your angry humorous rant proved the proxy allegation; so fail.
@G-W
You can call us subhuman, butchers, dufus, bufoons, ignorant, unqualified but don’t you EVER call me an Indian!
“we had the ability to totally dismantle your army and erase your borders”
1948 First Kashmiri War (Win) – Pakistan captured 85,793 km² of “Indian” territory of Kashmir now called AZAD kashmir on both sides of the LOC.
1965 Rann of Kutch Battle (Win) – It is generally understood by all parties that Pakistan won this battle.
1965 Second Kashmiri War (Draw) – Pakistan captured more enemy territory in terms of area. India captured more fertile/valuable territory. Pakistan had more kills enemy & enemy craft. Pakistan had some tactical victories. However, India denied Pakistan its ultimate objective. Both sides were exhausted and depleted by the end of the war.
1971 Bengali War of Independence (Loss) – Outnumbered, outgunned, after months of heroic resistance by Bengalis against a shamefully ruthless Pakistani army, India was able to walk into Dhaka within 13 days . Most of credit should be given to the bloody & heroic struggle of the Bengalis as West Pakistani politicians and the army simply deserved to be humiliated for their immoral discrimination against Bengalis. Pakistan lost prestige in the Islamic world and its link in Southeast Asia.
1982 Siachen War (Loss) – Indian invasion of Pakistani territory, Pakistan unable to dislodge Indian Army from strategic higher ground.
2002 Kargil War (Loss) – 30,000 Indians inflicted more damage to the 5000 mostly “irregular” Pakistanis soldiers. India was able to successfully remove Pakistanis from Indian territory.
It is important to note the aftermath of the 1971 war.
Following the victory, India and Bangladesh signed a 25 year friendship treaty. It was not renewed upon expiry.
Bangladesh declined to renegotiate or renew the treaty when it was for expiry in 1997.
Mujib’s death led to the establishment of diplomatic relations with Pakistan and other nations that had opposed the creation of Bangladesh, such as Saudi Arabia and the People’s Republic of China.[9] Bangladesh was criticised for allowing bases on its territory for anti-India secessionist groups such as the United Liberation Front of Assam (ULFA), and Bangladeshi intelligence agencies were suspected of maintaining links with Pakistan’s intelligence agencies.[10][11][12] Bangladesh in turn alleged that India was supporting the Shanti Bahini insurgency in the Chittagong Hill Tracts. Today, Bangladesh is closer to Pakistan than India. We Pakistani People reject the behavior of our politicians and generals in the mistreatment of our brothers in Bangladesh. We condemn Yahya Khan and Zulfikar Ali Bhutto for their behavior towards our brother country. God bless Bangladesh.
1761 Panipat III – Combined forces of Pushtuns & Balochis (modern day pakistan) kick the poo out of Maratha army Northern India falls.
The Second Battle of Tarain – Muhammad Ghori defeats Prithviraj Chauhan.
1001: Mahmud Ghazni defeats the Hindu Shahi king Jayapala
1021: Mahmud Ghazni defeats Tarnochalpal
Mahmud conquers Gujarat
Mahmud conquers Nagarkot
Mahmud conquers Thanesar
Mahmud conquers Gwalior
Mahmud conquers Ujjain
Mahmud defeats Chandellas of Khujarah
Mahmud defeats the Pratiharas of Kanauj
1527 Battle of Khanwa Babar defeats Rana Sanga Rajput confederates and takes Northern India
Regards.
For a full list of India’s glorious victories, please visit exhibit C
http://reformistani.wordpress.com/2010/0 4/23/indian-perception-people-of-pakista n-defeated-in-every-warbattle/
@mirzausman
I did not click on your link…It is amusing..and understandable how you are coping with the reality of being a “pakistani” in the year 2010….the world over “pakistan” means two things terrorists and begging…
fantasize yourself you are the progeny of muslim invaders…the odds are more likely you are ………..
LOL!
@mirzausman:
Oh Boy! Can one be more desperate than you who is thumping his chest over 11-19th Century Mughal glory?
Then you are extending this to tell us that like Mughals, Pakistan had upper hand over India in all wars.
If all this gives you goodnight sleep, I am happy. But get done with it and move your blog energy to better things to do. Reason is India of today and Pakistan of today are the facts. The facts are staring in your face. Your all these chronology of events/wars can be argued at length but that is a subject of another blog. Moreover, all that history does not convince a thinking person that Pakistan has screwed itself really bad since its creation while its literate population like you is hell bent upon negative thinking. Pakistan need to stop this propaganda websites and put energy into positive steps. Anyone can tell where India stands and where Pakistan does. You can close your eyes but that does not take away the fact that Pakistan is badly screwed up. Singing songs of Mughal glory will not fix your problems.
If you have not already, add this to you long list of wars. In Sikh Kingdom under Ranjeet Singh (nearly 50yrs), all religions HIndus/Sikhs/Muslims were part of Sikh Army. He could have used myopic thinking and said screw these Muslims and let me pick Hindu/Sikhs for Army against Brits. he did not. He was fighting not only Brits at that time but also Afghans.
One of my Bihari friends give me a reason why Bihar cannot grow like other states like Punjab or many other states. He says that Punjabis [ Indian
] work hard and move with time and adjust accordingly, Biharis tend to sing songs of ancient history (like you do about Mughal glory) when Bihar was ahead of other regions in many areas. It is historically important place. It is nice opium and one can get happily stoned but once it wears off, you got to face the truth. You need to face the truth that Pakistan is screwed up and much of credit goes to Islamabad, not Delhi, DC or Jerusalem.
___________________________
Rexminor: Just when I was going to suggest to the posters that you do not claim to be a Pakistani and should not be labeled thus, you have clearly shown that you are one.
I hope this goes through.
“Oh Boy! Can one be more desperate than you who is thumping his chest over 11-19th Century Mughal glory? ”
No less desperate that your countrymen **initiating** a conversation about bharat’s historic martial credentials (and you call us delusional!)
No less desperate than your countrymen assuming the heroics of bangladeshis.
I did not extend historic posterior-kickings to post 1947 wars. I pointed out we lost 3 arguably 4 wars. so fail.
As for the other ranjit/bihari/jerusalem etc…. don’t care.
Regards.
Here we see seeker of truth seeking truth:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3633/3580 935498_73ab47e791.jpg
“Oh Boy! Can one be more desperate than you who is thumping his chest over 11-19th Century Mughal glory? ”
If all this gives you goodnight sleep, I am happy.
>>> I sleep well at night. I suspect 10 centuries of subjugation can’t be washed away as easily as you would have us believe.
Sweet Dreams.
mirzausman,
I never asked you to certify my statements or expected you to accept them since doing so would eaquate to expecting a delusional schizophrenic to accept his misdeeds, which is always an excercise in futility. You & your bretheren may very well continue living in denial & believing your hallucinations, distorted history & altered facts. Nobody really cares because at the end of the day, you are fooling & hurting no one but yourselves. Also, in typical Pakistani fashion, continue to ignore the genocide of 3 million benaglis by your cowardly army.
@”1761 Panipat III – Combined forces of Pushtuns & Balochis (modern day pakistan) kick the poo out of Maratha army Northern India falls. The Second Battle of Tarain – Muhammad Ghori defeats Prithviraj Chauhan.”
ROFL. So, since you had to balance all your “losses” and coudn’t find any wins of your own, you had to dig into the 1100s to eek out some “wins” by Mahmud Ghazni & Ghori thump on his chest? Lol! And may I ask, what gives Pakistanis like you, the right to thump their chests on a those Persian invaders? It’s quite comedic when ‘identity challanged’ Pakistanis like you claim persian, arabian & turkish ancestries, when in most likelyhood, your ancestors were Indian hindus, who converted to Islam for fear of being persecuted by barbarians like Ghazni & Ghauri, who’s “wins” you are boasting of, here.
And even if someone was to by your twisted theory of Pakistanis being the descendants of Mughals, who won wars centuries ago in what is now India, Pakistan & Afghanistan, what does that have anything to do with today? Wake up from your slumber, open your eyes & you will see that in 2010, your country is Failed & bankrupt State which is only known in the world for it’s export of terrorism & it’s begging appetite wheras India is regarded by the world (including Islamic nations) as a rising economic power & respected globally. These are the facts as they exist today, whether Pakistanis like you accept them or not.
What I find quite disturbing by some Pakistani’s is their sense of pride of Islamic occupation of the Indian subcontinent.
I think if one could rewind the tapes, so to speak and if they could watch in horror as their hindu ancestors were butchered, and subjugated to extremely cruel treatment and genocide, and converted by the sword, that they would not be able to stand and say the same thing that they have been taught.
Cruelty begets cruelty. Once the U.S. sets foot on Pakistani soil, perhaps some of those Pakistani’s will know how their Hindu ancestors felt, when persian or arabic looters came to destroy their lives and persecute them.
I don’t believe the western empires will generate an Akhbar the Great for Pakistani’s, as Akbar was gift given by God to reprieve some of the cruelty on Hindus.
I have a feeling that sometimes humans only learn when they lose everything and all hope, that is when they learn and become wise. Perhaps that is the situation with Pakistan, time will tell.
At the end of the day, I have a feeling, it will be India to come to the rescue aid of the Pakistani’s, after they plead with India, after things go wrong there, nobody else will come to help Pakistani’s, not China, not anybody, only Indians.
@ G-W: “Cruelty begets cruelty. Once the U.S. sets foot on Pakistani soil, perhaps some of those Pakistani’s will know how their Hindu ancestors felt, when persian or arabic looters came to destroy their lives and persecute them.”
Pakistanis like mirzausman will certainly learn their lesson & the day isn’t too far either but those lessons won’t be taught by the US, western or Indian forces but by the very same Islamic extremist barbarians, whose horns many of these Pakistanis have become accustomed to toot. History will repeat itself in Pakistan, once it is talibanized. Only this time, it will be muslims persecuting muslims & we are already seeing the begining. How ironic, indeed!
@ “At the end of the day, I have a feeling, it will be India to come to the rescue aid of the Pakistani’s, after they plead with India, after things go wrong there, nobody else will come to help Pakistani’s, not China, not anybody, only Indians”
As well intentioned a thought that is, I don’t see that happening untill the military establishment is in charge in Pakistan. Those folks have enough false pride & hatred for India, to make sure that Pakistan chokes to death before it asks India for any help. The civilian Govt is a different story but I doubt they would ever be able to overrule the army.
@G W
I assume you do not want my comments to your rant. People like you must believe that this forum is for propaganda purpose or spreading venom to your assumed opponents. I am not from Pakistan not have any affiliation with your apparent adopted land. I wonder about the source of your unnecessary aggression towards others.
Rex Ninor