Killings of Ahmadis unleashes fresh soul-searching over Pakistan’s identity

June 2, 2010

ahmadiIn a country which has suffered many bombings, the killing of more than 80 people in two Ahmadi mosques in Lahore last week has unleashed a particularly anguished bout of soul-searching in Pakistan, going right to the heart of its identity as an Islamic nation.

When he heard the news, wrote Kamran Shafi in Dawn, “I ran home and put on the TV and burst into tears, first of rage and a seething anger; and then of complete and utter helplessness and sadness. Shame on us.”

“Tell me – is this a country that we can be proud of?,”  wrote Kalsoom on the blog Changing up Pakistan. ”Pakistan was supposedly established as a homeland for Muslims, to free them of discrimination. This same country now allows persecution to continue not just unabated but often by the writ of the state.”

“I am ashamed and disgusted.”

As always happens at times of crisis, commentators called on the spirit of Pakistan’s founder, Mohammad Ali Jinnah, who in his first address to parliament in 1947 appealed for religious tolerance. “You are free; you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place or worship in this state of Pakistan,” he said. ”You may belong to any religion or caste or creed. That has nothing to do with the business of the state.”

“Is this Jinnah’s Pakistan? No,” wrote Raza Rumi on his blog. “We have gone too far and pessimists are now saying that the process of destroying Pakistani society is irreversible. There is still hope that we shall overcome this menace if Pakistani public opinion is fashioned to look a little deeper inside and not find all sources of evil in Washington or Delhi. The electronic media has a critical role to play but lack of self-regulation and introspection is missing. If anything, we find more and more analysts and commentators siding with the militants.”

“The battle for Pakistan’s survival cannot be lost,” he said. ”This is the only country we have.”

The soul-searching is particularly acute given that the suppression of the Ahmadis is officially endorsed by the state. The Ahmadis follow the teachings of its 19th century founder Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, a man they see as a prophet.  Regarded by orthodox Muslims as heretical because they do not believe that Mohammed was the final prophet,  Ahmadis are not allowed by the state to describe themselves as Muslims.

Intolerance towards the Ahmadis is in some ways comparable to violence towards other religious minorities, including Christians - and both allow Punjab-based sectarian groups like the Sipah-e-Sabah and the Lashkar-e-Jhanghvi to demonstrate their power by picking on the weak.  But at another level it is quite different, since it involves a dispute about the nature of Islam - itself a subject for intense debate in a country where so many - from Muslim secularists to al-Qaeda inspired militants – claim to have a ”true” understanding of the faith.

In his excellent summary of the persecution of the Ahmadis at the blog Chapati Mystery (and do please read the whole series on this starting here), historian Manan Ahmed noted that even Allama Mohammad Iqbal, Pakistan’s national poet and ideological father of Pakistan, had taken issue with the Ahmadis and, writing in pre-partition India, insisted Muslims must acknowledge Mohammad as the final Prophet.

Over the years, the treatment of the Ahmadis has become politicised in ways that have played a disproportionately significant role in Pakistan’s history. Many date the army’s first intervention in politics to 1953, when the military was called in to quell anti-Ahmadi riots and declared martial law in Lahore. The army launched its first military coup in 1958 and has dominated Pakistan ever since.

Under the leadership of the late  Zulfikar Ali Bhutto – who wanted to win the support of the religious parties - Pakistan in 1973 adopted a clause in its constitution requiring faith in the finality of the Prophet as a central tenet. General Zia ul-Haq, who overthrew Bhutto in 1977 and had him hanged two years later, was so determined to Islamicise Pakistan that he passed an ordinance in 1984 forbidding the Ahmadis from calling themselves Muslims, or describing their place of worship as mosques.

By 2010, according to Sana Saleem at Dawn, many in the Pakistani media were tying themselves up in knots trying to avoid calling the place where the Ahmadis were killed last week as “mosques” – usually known as masjid in South Asia – instead talking about “places of worship”.

For what it’s worth, her comments had me reaching for my Arabic dictionary (Hans Wehr) to check the etymology of the word “masjid”.  “Ma” is a prefix denoting noun of place; the word “masjid” comes from the verb ”sajada”, defined by Wehr as “to bow down, bow in worship, to throw oneself down, prostrate oneself; to worship.”  Unless someone can correct my admittedly rusty Arabic, or come up with a theological nuance of which I am unaware, the substantive debate about the finality of the Prophet does not exist in that word “masjid”.

Saleem continues, “Meanwhile, the social networks have also been abuzz with outrage. Twitter, in particular, was flooded with messages of condemnation, shock, and horror. Many were disgusted by the way in which media outlets were describing the sites that were attacked as ‘worship places’ instead of ‘mosques.’”

“There is no justification for killing unarmed civilians – no religion or legal system allows a bunch of people to take the law in their hands and carry out barbaric acts of terror. Today, I must confess that I am scared of the uncertainties the future holds,” she writes.

“I feel that in our attempts to prove ourselves so-called pious Muslims and patriotic Pakistanis we have left humanity far behind. Our sympathies have become political, and our humanity has been compromised. Somewhere in our tussle to become pioneers of Islam and the darling of the West, we have stopped being human. For every atrocity that unfolds around us, we have a home-made conspiracy theory, a religious justification, or a history lesson with which to identify the culprits. But amid this information overload, the atrocities go ignored, priorities remain distorted, and the massacre continues.”

Pakistan has long been struggling to find an identity — torn between its South Asian roots, the lure of the West, and its commitment to Islam. If the killings of the Ahmadis have caused particular pain — more even than the anguish of seeing yet more civilians killed in yet another attack – it is because it strikes at the heart of how Pakistan defines itself.

U.S. blogger Juan Cole argues at Informed Comment that it shows the need for a separation between church and state (he also invokes Jinnah to back up his argument):

“The problem with using Islam as the state ideology (as the country’s founder, Muhammad Ali Jinnah clearly foresaw) is that there is no generic Islam,” he writes. “If a strict Sunnism of a revivalist or Salafi sort is the orthodoxy, then Twelver Shiites, Ismailis, Ahmadis and Sufis will be disadvantaged. I would argue that these latter groups taken together constitute a majority of the country (most Pakistanis are Sufis, and most Sufis are Sunni, but fundamentalist Sunnism despises mystical Sufism, which strives for spiritual union of the believer with the divine beloved).

Yet to remove Islam as the state ideology is to take away one — but not the only reason — why Pakistan was created in 1947.

Again at Dawn, Nadeem Paracha calls for an open debate both on Pakistan and on Islam:

“So much has become taboo in this country — so much so that the question now arises, can we ever become a truly free, enlightened and intellectually robust nation? Or will we keep hiding behind our fragile masks of religiosity and ‘patriotism,’ a mask that goes up in front of our faces every time we are confronted by a situation in which our views and actions (especially in the name of faith) are questioned.

“We do not debate. We react and then huddle up behind our flimsy and lopsided historical and national narratives for reassurance, cursing the world for our ills, looking out for ‘infidels’ and ‘heretics’ among us, or for scapegoats in the shape of media-constructed punching bags.

“The nightmare we are living today has a lot to do with all this. We remain in a slumber, carving out an isolated ideological comfort zone for ourselves, while obnoxious, sectarian and so-called puritanical keepers of the faith attack and kill in the name of God whenever and however they please. We claim to be treading a middle-path between liberalism and fanaticism, when the truth is, it is exactly the middle-path that has gone entirely missing in how we think, behave, act and react.”

58 comments

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(he also invokes Jinnah to back up his argument):

Have you heard of the story of several blind men trying to feel different parts of an elephant and trying to describe what an elephant would like? That’s how paks feel about what was meant by creation of pakistan…

that’s because Mohamad Ali Jinnah had it both ways. His one speech and few quotes are widely used by pak “liberals” to claim he was a secularist. Look at these quotes ny Jinnah and you decide yourself:

“It is my belief that our salvation lies in following the golden rules of conduct set for us by our great lawgiver, the Prophet of Islam. Let us lay the foundations of our democracy on the basis of true Islamic ideals and principles”.

-Jinnah speaking to Civil, Naval, Military and Air Force Officers at Khaliqdina Hall, Karachi on 11th October 1947.

“Every Mussalman knows that the injunctions of the Holy Quran are not confined to religious and moral duties. From the Atlantic to the Ganges, says Gibbon, the Holy Quran is acknowledged as the fundamental code, not only of theology, but of civil and criminal jurisprudence, and the laws which regulate the action and the property of mankind are governed by immutable sanctions of the will of God”. Everyone, except those who are ignorant, knows the Holy Quran is the general code of the Muslims”
-Jinnah’s Eid message to muslims in September 1945.

“Come forward as servants of Islam, organise the people economically, socially, educationally and politically and I am sure that you will be a power that will be accepted by everybody”.

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive

Pakistan was founded based not on Islamic identity, but on hatred for non-Muslims. It is this hatred that had kept them united all these years. And it was projected outward most of the time and Pakistan chugged along. When that hatred did not make much dent on those it was directed at, it turned inward and is burning Pakistan from within. Now they are trying to find their identity. Religion can never give identity to anyone. Nor can religion be used to run a country. Misuse of religion to grab power has been the philosophy of Pakistan’s founder as well as its subsequent leaders. It led them to nowhere. I hope they realize that religion is personal and most people just go on about their lives irrespective of what their belief or faith is. That is how it was even during Aurangzeb’s time. Everyone just got along and wars were fought over territorial expansion and capturing strategic and resourceful locations. India has retained that congeniality between different religious groups and has moved on. Pakistan has choked itself with religious identity and now it is finding the truth that it is empty. One does not find his identity by building a wall around himself.

Pakistan’s history is a great lesson to everyone. It teaches the world how not to live. Modern world cannot have isolated pockets that are exclusive for a certain group of people. This is the world where everything is inter-connected and shared. It is important to embrace that world instead of secluding one’s people. Jinnah made a huge blunder to satisfy his power craze. At least if he was a devout and sincere Muslim, there could have been some justification for what he did. His life style and what he asked for did not match at all. And now his legacy based on division and hatred has come back to haunt the country he founded. It is so unfortunate.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Craig Holme, Pakistan Now Never. Pakistan Now Never said: Killings of Ahmadis unleashes fresh soul-searching over Pakistan’s identity http://link.reuters.com/cup67k [...]

@KPSingh
Let me try to slightly correct the sequence of the historical facts.
The All India Muslim League party leaders asked for a separate State for the muslims for a number of reasons and the All india congress party agreed with the peroposal. Based on the results of a refrendum a muslim state with the name of Pakistan was born. The hate campaign among the population of both countries started after the creation of two independent countries.Today’s India and Pakistan are not what the stated intention of the leaders was. Both countries have failed to obtain the status of a Nation and have been trying to hang on to the territory through use of military Force in suppressing their so called allocated citizens. Economically Indian Hindu citizens have made more progress than their counterpart non hindus, in line with their pre-partition status. Politically and militarily they have brought out the sinister forces and lethal weapons within their land which has been slowly but steadily heading for a disaster if unchecked and ultimate annhilation of a large number of people.

Now returning to the article, today’s muslim state is not the same as of 40′s and does not reflect in some people’s views as was foreseen by the leaders who negotiated with the colony power. A large number of Indian born politicai and so called religious leaders migrated to Pakistan and tried to influence and even dominate the language, culture and traditions of the locals. This has been the major factor in destabilisation of the Pakistan territory, including the separation of former East Pakistan from the Pakistan domain. I deliberately use the word Domain since this is what the Indian and now Pakistan regard their territory. Many millions muslims including Kashmiris, low caste hindus and sikhs have migrated to western countries for economic or political reasons and the outflow has still not stabilised he countries. Both are under the influence of the neo conservative USA strateguist who believe that the social and economic progress would solve the unrest in the sub-continent. This theory is bound to fail as it has failed in the United States as well. Quite the contrary, this provides the impetus for many to use the religion for exerting their superiority over other people. In my view the only remedy would be to take measures for building the Nation for without the people people are likely to go for so called fundamentalism. This is realised in Europe more than in the USA and leaders in the UK and France are now working on the basics to establish the identity of a French and British. For without this the civil is likely to spread in most countries of the world. The countries like Pakistan and India, by the way, have still not attained the status of Natiopns. It would not be out of place to mention that even Afghanistan, in view of its non-Pashtoon mix in the country, have to staert building a Ntion which can peacefully live in the territory of today’s Afghabistan.

I believe the accurate analysis could provide the solution for the inherent problems in the sub continent. Have a nice day.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

It was a sad day when Ahmadis were declared Non-Muslims in the constitution, perhaps those who designed the whole document came under pressure of the religious rightists. We need to revive some of the clauses in the constitution, like blasphemy law, so that the religious minorities are given due protection.

Posted by SZaman88 | Report as abusive

I’ve followed the above debate with interest and agree with the basic premis presented ie that Pakistan is suffering from a severe case of political shizophrenia: is it a democratic state or is it a theological, Muslim state. The fate of groups such as the Ahmadsi, Zikris, Christians and other minorities depends on the conclusion reached on that question.

Concerning the Ahmadi, although I am a Christian not a Muslim or Ahmadi, following lengthy contact with the Ahmadiyya Jama’at in Rabwah, Pakistan and Qadian, India, I published the only extensive study of the sect covering the sect’s history, teaching, ideology, structure, organisation and persecution. This may be of interest to any viewers of this blog. Please see S. R. Valentine, Islam & the Ahmadiyya Jama’at, hurst & Co, 2008. I can be contacted on archegos@btinternet.com

Posted by archegos | Report as abusive

Rex Minor writes a nice little lie “The hate campaign among the population of both countries started after the creation of two independent countries”…

Nice try. I bet you read that story at school in “pakistan studies”.

Jinnah whipped up communal hatred and venom before 1947. Rafiq Zakaria, Indian muslim freedom fighter and historian has extensively documented this. This elder Zakaria is none other than the father of CNN anchor, international analyst Fareed Zakaria.

Zakaria describes attending a meeting in Bombay in 1946 where Jinnah spoke and reports being stunned by the venom and hatred promoted by Jinnah. In his words “he disturbed peace between the communities as never before”.

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive

Fresh UI…

We all experienced that our Windows operating system will run slow and slower after we reinstalled it. Want to your Windows operating system run as fast as recent installation without reinstalling it? Fresh UI will help you indeed. Thank for Fresh Devi…

Anybody surprised? Such is the state of Pakistan today. They started by excluding minority after minority. Punjabis dominate the federation. They take Balochi resources, but give them no represenation or say in how those resources are employed. They use Sindhi access to the Sea, yet give them scarcely any say in governing the country (despite Sindh being vital to Pakistan’s economy and security). And they’ve turned the FATA into a giant non-state actor training camp over the years, with scarcely any concern for the Pathans who live there.

What comes after you exclude ethnic minorities? Why religious minorities, of course. It started with the Hindus, Christians and Sikhs. But that wasn’t enough. Now that Hindus, Christians and Sikhs are diminishing in numbers steadily, there just aren’t enough to kill. So now it’s time to pick on those they consider to be “lesser” Muslims.

And in the case the Ahmadis are an even easier target. The government says they are not Muslim. The constitution defines them as non-Muslims. So it must be true right? For sure Zia and constitution writers knew better than Allah who was Muslim or not. And if the Ahmadis are not Muslims then they are fair game….just like the Christians, Hindus and Sikhs before them.

The Nazis had a similar mentality. You had to blond and blue-eyed to survive in Hitler’s Germany. In Pakistan you gotta be a Wahhabist Sunni, and preferably Punjabi to have even a decent semblance of security. If you are a religious or ethnic minority, watch out.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

Pakistan: “The hate campaign among the population of both countries started after the creation of two independent countries.”

Let me make this a bit clearer. Hate campaign started in Pakistan after the creation of the two countries. Hatred and exclusion was the only way the various divisive ethnic groups inside the state of Pakistan could be maintained. It started with the premise that “Islam is under threat” and that premise has been used to sustain the unity of Pakistan. When language issue creeped in unexpectedly, unity was threatened and it resulted in the separation of East Pakistan. Religion has not given any unity. Hatred and prejudice have. And that is the problem with Pakistan.

In the case of India, the leaders deliberately worked towards creating a secular, democratic and socialistic republic of India. Things cannot be expected to change overnight. It takes many decades of effort to get to that stage. And India has progressed slowly in that direction.

“Today’s India and Pakistan are not what the stated intention of the leaders was.”

In the case of India, it was very clear. Indian leaders wanted to create a secular, united, democratic system. Jinnah wanted Pakistan for Muslims so that he could have a nation for himself. So you are correct in the case of Pakistan and absolutely wrong in clubbing India with Pakistan in your analysis. India was not founded on religious terms. India is not a “Hindu” country. Muslims have their own civic code in India.

“Both countries have failed to obtain the status of a Nation and have been trying to hang on to the territory through use of military Force in suppressing their so called allocated citizens.”

Wrong again. India is well established as a nation. It was fragile and had the potential to break apart until a few decades ago. But India has gone over that. The reason why India has to use military to hold on to some territories is due to their proximity to neighboring states that are hostile towards India. They train, fund and support militancy in those states, sometimes disguising their own people as locals. Until 1989, Kashmir did not have any issues with India. After the defeat of the Soviets, the whole world knows that Pak military launched the war hardened militants into Kashmir and have succeeded in creating chaos and dejection there. Indian military is there to contain that assault. That’s all. The same case with North Eastern states.

“Economically Indian Hindu citizens have made more progress than their counterpart non hindus, in line with their pre-partition status.”

Myopic BS again. Tatas who hold one of the largest industrial empires in India are Zoarashtrians. Aziz Premji, the richest Indian, is a Muslim. India’s rocket and missile technology was developed by Abdul Kalam. Shah Rukh Khan is the most popular actor in India. India’s wealthiest diamond merchants are Jains. India officially has tried to give opportunities for their oppressed and backward people. It is working on empowering women. Which planet are you living on?

“Politically and militarily they have brought out the sinister forces and lethal weapons within their land which has been slowly but steadily heading for a disaster if unchecked and ultimate annhilation of a large number of people.”

India has its needs and concerns. It is not Pak centric. Pakistan is suffering from prejudice, paranoia and insecurity which are unnecessary. If Pakistan wants to equate itself with India at all costs and lives with superiority complex, it will self destruct at some point. The events in Pakistan are testimony to that. I hope your civilian government gets its power back from your military cartel so that your country can become a nation in due course. If that does not happen soon enough, Pakistan will be on a tail spin. The only danger to the region is Pakistan being taken over my radical elements and gaining control over the illegal nukes.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

KeithZ,

Of late I am seeing more emotional words from you. In the past you used to analyzed things in a very cool and non-partisan manner. I am sensing more frustration in your words that is beginning to make you sound like an Indian. Is this how things are changing in the Western world towards Pakistan?

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

If anybody wants to compare India and Pakistan, here’s a simple question:

Would you rather be a Muslim (or Christian or Sikh or what have you) in India or an Ahmadi in Pakistan?

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

@KPSingh

Your problem is that you assume that all Westerners from all Western countries are the same. For someone from such a diverse country, you have an incredibly myopic point of view of the diversity that can exist outside your home.

It’s neither a pro-Indian or pro-Pakistani opinion. I call it as I see it. I sincerely feel for those Ahmadis in Pakistan (just like I did years ago for Muslims in Gujarat). And I find it frustrating that people take it so likely. We should all be concerned about loss of life anywhere.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

archegos,

Excellent point. I don’t think even Pakistanis yet know what kind of country they want to be. This is history being made right here. Are we watching the Talibanization of Pakistan or are the Pakistani people just slow to react and we’ll eventually see them rise up against the religious extremists? Hard to say. Time will tell.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

KeithZ: “Would you rather be a Muslim (or Christian or Sikh or what have you) in India or an Ahmadi in Pakistan?”

I would rather not be a Muslim in the US or a Pakistani in Kabul right now.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Anyone who’s surprised by this incident (attack on Ahmadis) in Pakistan hasn’t been paying attention. It’s been obvious for quite some time that Pakistan, as a nation, has been rapidly moving towards radicalism & intolerance. It’s also reflective of the attitude of the Pakistani state, who’s condemnation of this horrific mass muder was quite muted & feeble in comparison to their seething criticism of the Isreali incident. Ideally, everyone wants to see a revolution & a pardigm shift in Pakistan whereby the people stand up against radical forces & oust them for good but unfortunately, the way I see it, Pakistan is on it’s way to becoming a nation ruled by these radical elements, who promote intolerance, violence & bigotry. The talibanization of Pakistan seems inevitable.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

@ KP Singh & others
Gientlemen, Please do not get emotional. I agree with the statement that the indian leaders did not want the Indian sub-continent divide on the basis of religion. I also accept that Mohd Ali Jinnah was not a practicing religious person. Nor in my view was a visionary personality. The leading hindu leader and aristocrat Nehru was also not a visionary personality. Perhaps some one should tell who at the time during the colonial time had a vision for the future. And even since the partition Indian leaders are directly responsible for suppression of minorities including hindus of so called schedule castes in their own country. It is wrong to assume that the christians are not today persecuted and even forced to convert their religion or the military is not constantly used to suppress ruthlessly the minorities including the Punjabi sikhs and Kashmiri muslims. Please do not deny historical facts and not to ignore the murder of Mrs Gandhi by her own security people. India was never a Nation before the Brits colonised the country and is unlikely to become a nation unless its leaders take the courage to jump over their own shadows.
Pakistan has their own created mess including the mentality of the Faqir who would rather wait endlessly for the foreign aid instead of mobilising the people’s energy for self reliance. They have managed below satisfaction and wasted their energy in beefing up their military for confrontation with India. You are right today they have as many lethal weapons (equal to and even more than the Indian have) and are capable of decimatiing(to quote your terminology) any adversary. This is unfortunate and in my view is the direct result of military confrontation with its big brother India since partition. The people on the whole in the sub-continent have more or less similar mentalities and this is very much reflected in this forum. The cusual factor in my view is their inability to get rid of the inferiority complex for having lived for almost two hundred years under their colonial masters. Neither India nor Pakiastan leaders ever took the opportunity for restructuring their education or judicial institutions. Is Pakistan, the weaker country going to take the next step of first strike against India and
revenge for the humiliations which the military suffered todate or they are going to sit back and let the rotten weapons rust? I hope and pray not. The consequences would be horrendous.
Someone mentionrd Zakari’s name. the guy is a phenomina of his own. His performance in CNN is a farce and I would not regard the guy’s comments with seriousness. His show might be amusing and of interest in the USA, but which of the American shows are not hillarious. Is Larry King less amusing or Jay Leno for that matter? But this is another subject.
In all seriousness the destabilisation we see today in countries from the middle east to Afghanistan, in my view,is not due to radicalism or religion but simply due to intervention of the USA neo conservative and clintonian strategists whosec philosaphy is to create wars in the world in order to support its existance. This need to stop, the Japanese and the Germans want USA military and their Nukes out, and the Pashtoons would not accept USA bases either.
Have a nice day.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

KeithZ: “Your problem is that you assume that all Westerners from all Western countries are the same. For someone from such a diverse country, you have an incredibly myopic point of view of the diversity that can exist outside your home”

I posed the question to you alone and not to the entire western world. We do know the diversity in the globe. Therefore you are drawing a major conclusion that by questioning you, I am questioning all the people in the West. That is not the case. So I wonder who is suffering from myopia here, the one who asks a question to an individual or the individual who thinks he is viewed as representing the entire Western world. I do have my issues with Western cold war policies which have hurt us Indians dearly. But that is a different topic.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

I do have my issues with Western cold war policies which have hurt us Indians dearly.
Posted by KPSingh01

—-
The only thing I would differ with you is in the use of “have”.
American hypocrisy and double standards are most glaringly reflected in their refusal to let Indian intelligence agencies to get access to Hadley. Imagine a terrorist who planned and carried out shootings and bombings at train stations and hotels in NY city. Imagine India is holding him. Imagine how the Americans will be foaming and frothing like bulldogs!

“champion of freedom and liberty”! They wage wars, invade countries to establish “western style” democracy. The same Americans have done everything possible to undo the largest multi-ethnic, multi-religious democracy in the world, supplying military gadgets, and propping a religious, exclusivist terrorist country next door for 60+years! All because the Americans prefer puppets and military dictators and don’t like countries with self-respect.

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive

Pakistan: “The leading hindu leader and aristocrat Nehru was also not a visionary personality.”

Nehru was not representing “Hindus” when he took on the leadership of the nation. He was a surely visionary. He worked hard towards building strong foundations of India – academic institutions of repute, scienitific research institutions, working with scholarly politicians in drafting the constitution etc. India is sitting on the foundations that he set up. If Nehru had not been there, India might have gone the way of Pakistan or splintered up. Nehru, like his daughter and grandson, had a nationwide appeal that no other politician in India, other than Gandhi had. India is able to generate top class scientists, engineers, academicians and doctors who are gaining reputation and recognition in this world. Nehru was highly Westernized and thanks to him, India’s democratic foundations are still strong. You had ZA Bhutto, who could have taken your country along the right path. But he too was selfish and made things worse for Pakistan. The chance was lost at that time.

“India was never a Nation before the Brits colonised the country and is unlikely to become a nation unless its leaders take the courage to jump over their own shadows.”

India was not a nation before the British created it. Agreed. And the US was not a nation either 250 years ago. Many countries that you see on the map today, did not exist a hundred years ago. You recognize them, but are unable to do so in the case of India. You are also quite vague on what needs to be done to become a nation. Your logic that the leaders have to jump over their shadows makes no sense. Our leaders are being rotated periodically through electoral process. And based on which party or groups of parties form the government, policies vary. Isn’t that a sign that a nation is functioning? In India, charismatic leaders are things of the past. Power sharing is the new mode of operation and it is working well. India has excellent institutions for education, judiciary, security, taxation, industries and so on. We do not need any certification about being recognized as a nation. Even Bangladesh is recognized as a legitimate nation now. So come out of the past. You are still stuck in 1940s.

“The people on the whole in the sub-continent have more or less similar mentalities and this is very much reflected in this forum”

If that is the case, what justifies the formation of Pakistan or Kashmir or any other religion based state in the region? There is always a small group of bigots who crave for power and they use ideology and violence to achieve their ends. Pakistan was formed that way. And Kashmir is being driven by the same forces. That is why there is so much resistance from India for such an attempt. One Pakistan is bad enough. We don’t need two of them next to us.

“Neither India nor Pakiastan leaders ever took the opportunity for restructuring their education or judicial institutions.”

Where did you get this information regarding India? India does have a well functioning and independent judicial system. I’d like to know from you what educational restructing is needed in India. We have a very good system that compares with many reputed institutions in the world. Some of our engineering and management training institutions rank in the top 100 in the world. We know that Pakistan’s educational system is in shambles, it history has been rewritten with blatant lies and is radicalized. The only reputation we see from Pakistan today is IT (Islamic terrorism). Kindly do not insult us by comparing India to your country. I would not say we are superior to you. But we have done good things and your country chose the wrong path. That’s all.

“In all seriousness the destabilisation we see today in countries from the middle east to Afghanistan, in my view,is not due to radicalism or religion but simply due to intervention of the USA neo conservative and clintonian strategists whosec philosaphy is to create wars in the world in order to support its existance.”

Passing the blame to others has become a standard practice in your country. Your countrymen are not thumb suckling innocents. Your country willingly participated in a lot of geo-political games with big players and took a lot of benefits as a bargain. And it used those benefits for destructive purposes rather than constructive ones. Radicalization cannot come from outside. It happens within. And your country has been in this vicious tail spin into the hell hole of radicalization on its own efforts in order to prop up Wahabi brand Sunni Islam. You as an individual might be a liberal. But your country’s military rulers have destroyed your country. I sincerely hope that your country comes out of this mess and becomes a normal nation. We Indians will definitely help in that regard if you guys reach out to us. But we are not going to “understand” your country and put up with the stones your countrymen have been throwing at our windows ever since your country was formed.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Seekeroftruth,

It is all geo-politics. Americans, by and large, are good people. They are utterly ignorant of the outside world. Their global policies have been shaped by business demands and ignorance about the others. During cold war days, they saw India’s preference to be neutral as siding with their enemies. And there were officials in Nehru’s cabinet like Krishna Menon, who, due to their staunch socialistic beliefs, poured more venom over the already seething American feelings. And Pakistan exploited it to the hilt. They sent in very charming diplomats who swept the Americans by their feet and ever since the US has relied on Pakistan for South Asian affairs. Indira Gandhi was afraid of the KGB after what had happened to Shastri. Both the CIA and the KGB in those days were capable of removing national leaders by staging coups and assassinations. In order to be protected from one, leaders had to lean on the other. Until the collapse of the USSR, India had to tow their line, whether they liked it or not.

Geo-politics made ugly bed-fellows. That is in the past. Today, the US has warmed up to India and regards her talent and potential. As far as we are concerned, we should make the most of the business co-operation with them and stay out of the lime light. Let the Chinese and other wanna be big players clash with each other. We should become like Canada – well off and not making much noise, respected and relied upon. I would focus on our Maoists and address their grievances so that we can work towards further progress.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

For the last few posts, shall we please focus on the topic at hand? The persecution of Ahmadis in Pakistan? I dont understand how any and every conversation with respect to Pakistan and India curtails back to the partition.

Back to the persecution of Ahmadis.

KeithZ, you are absolutely correct when you say:
“The Nazis had a similar mentality. You had to blond and blue-eyed to survive in Hitler’s Germany. In Pakistan you gotta be a Wahhabist Sunni, and preferably Punjabi to have even a decent semblance of security. If you are a religious or ethnic minority, watch out.”

Being part Afghani growing up in Pakistan, I couldnt agree more. Pukhtoons are frowned and looked down upon. Ahmadis were shoved into Rabwah, a town with barely any clean water because they are looked down upon for their beliefs. My own grandfather was Martyred in Afghanistan for being one of the first to convert into Ahmadiyyat. Again, couldnt agree more with your comparison.

Mr. KPSingh01,

With respect to you writing the following:

“Where did you get this information regarding India? India does have a well functioning and independent judicial system. I’d like to know from you what educational restructing is needed in India.”

Last I checked, India is still a third world country so there IS need to imporve in all of the areas listed above. If you havent been, please visit Mumbai. I’m sure you’ll remember how third world it is.

Also, Americans are not “ignorant of the outside world” as you careless stated. Their motto has always been to divide and conquer.

Ahmadis will continue to have the same motto: Love for All, Hatred for None – perhaps something ALL nations should try to abide by, including India, America, and the rest of the world.

-An Afghan/Iranian Ahmadi Woman’s point of view.

Posted by mlatif1983 | Report as abusive

Ahmadis will continue to have the same motto: Love for All, Hatred for None –
-Posted by mlatif1983

—-
Since you are spewing anti-India venom, and display of bigotry, I have to share with the world a home truth. Ahmedis don’t and did not practice “love for all”. You were at the forefront of hate driven pakistan movement, and indulged in hatred and violence. Some people saying you deserve it in your promised land have a point. Now take it! What do you know about Mumbai?

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive

Also mlatif1983, I’m hearing from Sunni and Shia sources in pakistan that Ahmedis funded Sunni and Shia extremist groups to ensure violence between Sunnis and Shias.

Yes.Ms.Latif India has a beautiful functioning secular governement, functioning judiciary, secular education system. For example our school children read hindus, muslims are all Indians. We also dont have any laws saying ahmedis are not muslims, and we don’t declare our religion when applying for passorts.

Your education in “pakistan studies” is showig up on this board.

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive

mlatif1983: “Last I checked, India is still a third world country so there IS need to imporve in all of the areas listed above. If you havent been, please visit Mumbai. I’m sure you’ll remember how third world it is.”

What does third world have to do with having an independent judicial system? The sheer size of the country overwhelms it. The advocates, judges etc are well educated people. India is improving, whether you like it or not.

“Also, Americans are not “ignorant of the outside world” as you careless stated. Their motto has always been to divide and conquer.”

Did you know that George Walker Bush when he became the President, did not know who Taliban were? He thought Taliban was the name of some high school cheer leader squad in Texas. My source: Ahmed Rashid, your beloved Pakistani compatriot. I have been to the US and have lived there for some time. If you watch their world news, you will see their utter ignorance. They have money, power and the world follows the trend that they set. But they do not care for the rest of the world much. They have their Football, NBA, Baseball, Nascar, fishing, hunting, biking, hiking and partying. Many do not even know what is on the other side of their country. Most have their needs met locally and don’t care much about the outside world. When they get make their global policies, they have “experts” who basically decide everything. Then there are lobby groups. Even countries have lobby groups in Washington. When they invaded Iraq, they assumed a lot of things and did not expect the ground reality to be different from that assumption. Americans are not like Europeans, who have much better world knowledge. They just love their hitech weapons. Small wars help them test those weapons, hone them and market them. Divide and conquer was the monopoly of the British Empire. Americans prefer polarizing the world into two – one with them and one against them. They like to keep it simple.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

At last, the Pakstani establishment seems to be acknowledging the presence of militancy in their country instead of blaming everything on RAW & “the hidden foreign hand”.

“Official Admits Militancy Has Deep Roots in Pakistan” – NYT

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/03/world/ asia/03pstan.html?hp

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

“Since you are spewing anti-India venom, and display of bigotry, I have to share with the world a home truth. Ahmedis don’t and did not practice “love for all”. You were at the forefront of hate driven pakistan movement, and indulged in hatred and violence.”

@Seekeroftruth: First time I heard violence in relation to Ahmadis. Can you or your sunni/shia sources provide some evidence? Pakistani state is brutally persecuting Ahmadis without justification; it would be more than happy if it could find some justification to deal with them.

Posted by Usman01 | Report as abusive

THE BIGGEST SCAM EVER?
And what if — someone please tell me I’m wrong on this — and what if we all Muslims, all 1.2 billion of us, have been the victims of the largest-ever scam in history?

Let me explain: In my country, we all Muslims were told that, in 1974, the Pakistan National Assembly, a democratically-elected body, assisted by very able Ulemas, had examined the beliefs of the Ahmedis and, on the basis of the evidence presented, had found them (the Ahmedis), to be non-Muslims. And we all believed this to be true. Since then, generations of us have grown up hearing nothing else but that “incontrovertible fact that an Assembly found them to be non-Muslims!”. A whole Assembly can’t be wrong, can they?

But, what if that was a big lie? What if the evidence presented to the National Assembly pointed the OTHER way and, in panic, the religio-political ruling elite felt their chairs shaking and decided to lie in their collective teeth and affirm the contrary?

How do I dare make such a categorical assertion? Simple: At the end of that Special Session of the National Assembly, the Pakistan government imposed a total publication ban on the proceedings of that Special Session, and nothing has ever been made public!!! The Ahmedis, on the other hand, have always urged that, if the evidence was so damning against them, then the government ought to have no hesitation in publishing the proceedings and letting the world see how justified they (the National Assembly), were in arriving at their decision. Nothing doing, however…]

The matter does NOT end there: That “verdict” of the Pakistan National Assembly has since been used, both within Pakistan and in other jurisdictions around the world, as the founding “document” to build other restrictions around the Ahmedis. Specifically, Gen. Zia-ul-Haq used that “verdict” as the basis for his Ordinance XX of 1984, which criminalized the daily religious observances of the Ahmedis and unleashed the current hate campaign against them.

In other words, today, we have reached this juncture because of what was decided in 1974 by the Pakistan National Assembly. But what if we’ve been scammed?

An MNA (member of the Pakistan National Assembly), who had sat through the deliberations of that Special Session in 1974, when quizzed afterwards about the reason for the publication ban, is reported to have blurted out that if the proceedings of the Session were published, “half of Pakistan would become Ahmedi overnight!” (Reproduced by Iaian Adamson in his book ‘A Man of God’).

So, what if the Ahmedis are correct on the central dividing issues between them and all other Muslims?

What if — this seems anathema, but let me say it anyway — what if their Messiah and Mehdi is/was THE Messiah and Mehdi through whose advent the renaissance of Islam was to take place? That’s one big question and would make all the difference between life and death for all of us Muslims…

How to be sure? I, for one, am now mightily interested in reading the Report of the Proceedings of that Special Session of the Pakistan National Assembly and seeing for myself what evidence it contains.

And, if it turns out–and I am now feeling a growing sense of unease about the whole thing–that the Report shows that the Ahmedis are correct in their doctrinal position and are Muslims as they claim, then we Muslims have a huge problem on our hand!

And, in passing, we would have earned a guaranteed place in the Guiness Book of Records for being the victims of the largest-ever scam in the history of the world!

Would someone please start a Website demanding from the Pakistani government the lifting of the publication ban on the Proceedings of that 1974 Special Session of the National Assembly of Pakistan…? Thank you.

Posted by 3a3r | Report as abusive

@KPsingh
For the sake of peace in India, I hope that your reading is right. Sometimes, I am alright jack policy is very fatal. I do not prefer to talk above people’s heads nor can I ignore the reality. The murder of Ahemadies is a horrific crime and let no one try to justify it, nor is the brutal murder of sikhs in Punjab by the Govt. apparatus. To call independent seeking citizens as bigots is not going to solve the inherent problems. Nor is the strategy of calling resistance people terrorists either. Those who believe that time alone would resolve the issues eventualy are very simple minded people but they are right in their thinking that they are not going to live for ever. This has always been the thinking of people without any vision including the political leaders of the Indian sub-continent who are not with us today. You are happy with the state of affairs in India, and that is good enough for me. But when I see asylum seeking citizens from India scattered now around the world or students seeking education even in Australia, then I ask myself what is lacking in India or in their education system that the english speaking people are now landing in Australia for the very basic university studies, not PHD. The nobel prize winner Indian understandibly went to the USA for research and this is not uncommon. But for basic studiesin foreign lands?
If you believe that the deadly strikes in several parts of the world including that in Russia, India and the USA is the work of radicals terrorists etc. and is due to their religion association with Islam, then you are genuinely living in the cuckoo land or barking up the wrong tree. The US can afford to send their armada number one to Iraq and Armada number two to Afghanistan and probably Armada number three to Pakistan,Iran or Kirgistan. And perhaps India could do the same and cross over to the fertile land of Punjab and Sindh in Pakistan. The question one should be allowed to ask is, for how long the countries are prepared to live with the causual factors without resolving them. Not very long for time is the scarecest commodity with humans. Bill clinton passed on the buck to George W and the buck landed with Barrack Hussain, no less muslim that many in India and Pakistan. Is he going pass the buck to one of the coming ladies? And is the current Economist Indian PM going to pass the buck back to the most revered Nehru family again and try to outsmart the newly born Pakistan PM. Who mentioned that George W did not know who the talibans were? The facts are that George W family was the greatest friends of the Osama bin Laden family and the Taliban leaders were the regular visitors to his Texas ranch.
My view is that let us not confuse the people or encourage history writers to eventually fabricate the untruth for the coming generations. The pressure must be exerted by the people on the political leaders to solve the issues through dialogues and not blame always others for their own shortcomings or keep on passing the buck to the coming generation.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

@3a3r
Very well written comments. I have the feeling that you have actually become the victim of the scam. Should other muslims try to read the trash of Salman Rushdie to see if after all he was right in his assertions about the Prophet of God.
I have met some Ahmedies assylum seekers in Europe. Their assertion was that in order to provide protection for their sect(I call it a sect. since according to my internet info they are not permitted to enter Mecca and Madina) ZA Bhutto used the legislation to classify them as non-muslims. What has happened now is a horrible crime and if the causual factor is once again the military, then you have it. Let the new civilian puppet regime publish the proceedings as you called for and let most of the country declare themselves as Ahmadies and non-muslims as long as they do not demand to shift their paradise from…. to Kashmir. Perhaps,they should declare themselves as Hindus, for after all most of the muslims in India and Pakistan were originally of Hindu and Buddhist faith. At least the terrorist acts in Pakistan could no longer be attributed to religion. Pakistan could then have a clean secular constitution.

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

“Should other muslims try to read the trash of Salman Rushdie to see if after all he was right in his assertions about the Prophet of God”

Proceedings of the national assembly vs Salman Rushdie’s book? Hardly a comparison. Why should the people of Pakistan not know the work of their representatives? After all they get paid by the public and the public has the right to know.

Posted by Usman01 | Report as abusive

RexMinor: “But when I see asylum seeking citizens from India scattered now around the world or students seeking education even in Australia, then I ask myself what is lacking in India or in their education system that the english speaking people are now landing in Australia for the very basic university studies, not PHD. The nobel prize winner Indian understandibly went to the USA for research and this is not uncommon. But for basic studiesin foreign lands?”

By talking too much you are slowly exposing all your ignorance. I do not know how many of you are like this in Pakistan.

India has a huge population, that is bursting at its seam. Emigration is one way that pressure can be alleviated. So people migrate out of the country. In order to be accepted in the host countries, people have to show the demanded skills or opportunities to develop those skills. And those countries are willing to allow for that. Immigration is a natural phenomenon. People migrate for expanding their business as well. This does not mean everyone who migrates is an asylum seeker. Asylum seekers are those who seek refuge in another country when they face persecution in their own for their political or other beliefs. You are quietly painting a negative picture of India by turning every immigrant as an asylum seeker. Indian immigrants have worked hard wherever they went and have earned a good name for themselves as law abiding citizens who contribute to the welfare of those countries.

One thing that is clear from your writing as well as that from others like you is this – propaganda can paint anything in a negative way. I will definitely point at wrong assumptions, interpretations and criticisms. That does not translate into emotional response. Emotional response typically results in name calling, claiming incredible things and lying.

From your writing I can sense that you are putting India and Pakistan at par on all fronts and you are preaching to India. In order to cool the temper, you are making some admissions about Pakistan, while not failing to add India in that admission.

As far as I am concerned, Pakistan chose its own path and destiny and India its own. I would never compare a huge watermelon to a grape. I would not say India is superior etc. It is just that Indian leaders have attempted to push the country in the right direction using modern ideals. Accomplishing those lofty goals is another matter. But the attempt has not been given up.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

“Also mlatif1983, I’m hearing from Sunni and Shia sources in pakistan that Ahmedis funded Sunni and Shia extremist groups to ensure violence between Sunnis and Shias.

Yes.Ms.Latif India has a beautiful functioning secular governement, functioning judiciary, secular education system. For example our school children read hindus, muslims are all Indians. We also dont have any laws saying ahmedis are not muslims, and we don’t declare our religion when applying for passorts.

Your education in “pakistan studies” is showig up on this board.”

So, it clearly shows how you have ABSOLUTELY NO KNOWLEDGE OF AHMADIYYAT. Go to Alislam.org. There is absolutely no violence amongst sunni and shiite groups that was lead by Ahmadis. Sunnis and Shiites have had hate amongst each other even before Ahmadiyyat was founded. I’d love to see your “sources”. Ha!

“Ahmedis don’t and did not practice “love for all”. You were at the forefront of hate driven pakistan movement, and indulged in hatred and violence. ”

I merely said that there is always room for improvement and the fact STILL remains India is a third world country. I am not spewing any hate towards India. I will not, however, tolerate anyone saying that Ahmadis were ar the forefront of hate driven pakistan movement. We have never raised a gun, sword, or any weapon and killed anyone.

“Some people saying you deserve it in your promised land have a point. Now take it! What do you know about Mumbai?”

Mr. Seeker of Truth (btw, ironic name) Are you actually approving the slaughtering of Ahmadis? “TAKE IT”? I highly doubt you are humane enough to be even spoken to and taken seriously. Anyone who approves killing innocent humans is not meant to be taken seriously.

I do know that Mumbai is filled with poverty. A third WORLD COUNTRY.

Facts remain. Please leave your emotions out.

Posted by mlatif1983 | Report as abusive

KPSingh01, I couldnt agree more with your point of view on America and polarizing the world into “them and then America”.

Posted by mlatif1983 | Report as abusive

@mlatif1983:
It was obvious you are a supremacist, bigot from your earlier posts but you have indulged in another outburst establishing what I had said earlier!! ahmadis indeed were in the forefront of hate-driven pakistan ideology, demanding to be in separate state getting rid of their own punjabi hindu and sikh brethern. Let alone universal humanism. Soon after 47 they found out they were wrong.

And you don’t reflect Ahmadi religion here either. Ahmadism was yet another attempt to build bridge between Indic civilization and Islam. You are a supremacist poisoned by pakistani education. Even after so much persecution your petty mind cannot admit the difference between India and Pakistan.

======
@KPSingh:
“Nehru was not representing “Hindus” when he took on the leadership of the nation. He was a surely visionary.”

I very much liked your comments on Nehru. The above comment reminds of an anecdote I read, Jinnah telling (a perplexed) Nehru, “take care of your people, I’ll take care of my people”. Nehru’s response was what do you mean my people, everyone is my people.

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive

@Usman01

I had no intention to criticize Islam (whether it is Shia, Sunni, or Ahmadi). In fact if paks live peacefully within the current borders, and shed anti-India hostility we have no use for all this.

Feel free to dispute this, I’ve no stake in it.
Below is a verbatim comment by a pakistani elsewhere:

“During 70′s Sunni & Shia Muslims united against Ahmadiyya community & consequently Ahmedis were politically & constitutionaly declared non-muslims.
Molana Ismail Deobundi represented all muslim sects & defeated Mirza Nasir Ahmed,The Third Khalifatul Masih of Ahmadiyya community,in a dialogue in National Assembly of Pakistan in 1974.

As a natural reaction Ahmediyya Community sponsored & created groups to widen the gulf between Sunni & Shia Muslims,because their unity against Ahmadiyya community was the real danger for their survival in Pakistan as a community.

As a matter of fact & to endorse the above statement, Lashkar-e-Jhangvi was created after 1974.
Another Jhang based terrorist Organisation, Sipah-e-Sahaba, appeared after the creation of Lashker-e-Jahngvi.Both terrorist Organisations share same origin & sponsors.”

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive

@Keithz,

Let a simpleton like me break it down real easy. It appears that the Ahmadi’s are nothing more than Kaffirs to Pakistani’s.

Bengali holocaust victims (Hindus and Muslims alike), Sikhs, Hindu Pundits, Hindus in West Pakistan, Christians and Buddhists in Pakistan and now Ahmadi’s all Kaffirs.

The constitution in Pakistan does not equate Kaffirs to be human beings with any constitutional or legal rights.

One can argue that the Punjabi Pakistani’s are just being law-abiding citizens. Why are we all getting so upset…Pakistani’s are doves.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

@Keithz,

One more thing, I find it real funny when guys like Umair still give pats on the back of Pak Army, while Pak Army sits back and allows Ahmediya Muslims to be butchered and lacks the will, spine and resolve to take on the South Punjab Terror cells butchering average Pakistani’s on the streets. Why are the South Punjabi Terrorists being given free reign to kill average Pakistani’s and Ahmediya’s, while more than half of the Pakistani Army is pointing their guns at India?

It seems that all terrorist groups are exploiting Pakistan Army’s naivety to allocate all strategic war assets against India, while internal security is deteriorating greatly within Pakistan.

No wonder why the apolitical Kayani is stepping down and retiring, it seems he does not want to be “dethrowned” or “debadged” by his peers, if he messes with the Pak Army business model of keeping enmity with India.

That is too bad, while Pak Army looks after its business model, average Paks are getting butchered by South Punjabi terrorists and civilian government is playing cat and mouse with U.S. Imperial powers next door.

Pakistan’s long misguided war policies are starting to show up as the violence on the streets of Lahore, Pindi and Islamabad mounts, with the PA unwilling to re-allocate war assets from Kashmir, to look after its own people.

The terrorists have opportunized on this internal weakness and hunkered themselves down and dug their heels into the sand. I think they are setting out to gut Pakistan and Talibanize it. Much suffering will ensue upon innnocent Pakistani’s, who have nothing to do with anything.

The civilian coalition government is powerless to force the Army to do anything and the Army does not care enough to take on the South Punjab terrorists as it seems the old war front in Kashmir with India is more important.

The Army mafia junta in Pakistan does not care about all its people, it selectively cares only for those that serve Sunni Punjabi supremacy. Everyone else can goto hell, it seems, based on what we see everyday.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

@seekeroftruth , hmm… , r we not a 3rd world country? Ever tried lodging a complaint with the police or waiting for a court judgement? And r u trying to justify the murder of Ahmediyas? SHAME

Posted by bullcharger | Report as abusive

Mr. Seeker of Truth

It’s obvious you dont process what you read. Ahmadis were NOT the forefront of hate driven pakistan ideology. We never demanded to be in a separate state – we were shoved into Rabwah – with no clean water and full of tough terrain to even live on. When and how did Ahmadis find out they were wrong in 47? You need to read up on history and Ahmadiyyat before you make such accustations and claims. Next time, provide references to your outlandish claims.

“Ahmadi religion” and “Ahmadism” which are not even words, let me first correct you on that: Its AHMADIYYAT. Know the proper words before attempting to use them. Second, Ahmadiyyat was NOT another attempt to bridge Indic civilization and Islam. Ahmadiyyat is a sect of Islam – it holds no political symbolism.

I’m actually unphased by your harsh words and slander. People who dont know what they are talking about normally speak like you…Try to become a little more educated and then have a mature and engaging discussion before opening your mouth again. Makes you look pathetic.

I am not a supremacist. I never had pakistani education considering I have lived in the states since I was 4 and I am not even from Pakistan – I’m Iranian and Afghan.

Lastly, this discussion is not about the difference between India and Pakistan. This discussion is about the persecution of Ahmadis in Pakistan. lets stick to the topic, SHALL WE?

I think all you want to hear is “india’s great and pakistan sucks”

Grow up. Mature up. Educate yourself. THEN speak.

Posted by mlatif1983 | Report as abusive

I agree with Keithz, it seems that in Pakistan, minorities are a threatened species. I have not seen one Pakistani refute the Bengali Holocaust, nor have I seen one Pakistani EVER stick up for the rights of non-Sunni or non-muslim minorities in Pakistan, especially on this blog, yet Pakistani’s cry fictitiously for their so-called sympathy with Kashmiri muslims and other under-priviledged people in India, while they look the other way, while minorities keep taking it to the chin and getting massacred.

Pakistani’s need to get their head checked, as it exists in some sort of upside down, mirrored universe, in which up is down and right is left and forwards is backwards. I think you really have to gave a psychologically deranged mind, destroyed from childhood to understand behavior in Pakistan.

Any Pakistani sympathy takers for Pakistani minorities here? Umair? Pakistani, any Pakistani’s? Any Pakistani here, please correct me and set me straight on this.

No…I did not think so. Sorry to say this, but from this blog and all news events from Pakistan.

Kaffirs continue to be worthless humans in Pakistan. Any police interventions are done half-heartedly and justice is never given to minorities

As BULLCHARGER above said, SHAME!

May God protect the minorities.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

@mlatif1983:
First of all let me make it clear persecution and slaughtering them was inhuman and barbaric. As G-W says pak army and the country has wrong priorities.

Lets look at your statments. We’ll realize who needs education.

“Ahmadis were NOT the forefront of hate driven pakistan ideology. We never demanded to be in a separate state”

The Lahore Resolution (Qarardad-e-Lahore? commonly known as the Pakistan Resolution was written by an Ahmadiyya muslim by the name Muhammad Zafrulla Khan. He was the Amir of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community in Lahore during the period 1919 to 1935.

Read here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Za frulla_Khan

How visionary was he? He advised the Amir of Junagadh (hindu majority population) in present day Gujarat, Indiato join pakistan.

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive

@mlatif1983:
You may not have studied in pakistan, but your lack of culture and lack of civility shows in the above sequence of posts. KPSingh was pointing out India’s national ideology of it being a secular state. i.e what it stives for, and what its constiution stands for. Our failures don’t make it the same as pakistan. You jumped in with an uncivilzied manner and stated India is a 3rd world country…you could have politely asked to stick to the topic.

It is funny you ask me to “grow up”. I don’t expect you to grow up!

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive

@bullcharger,
“Ever tried lodging a complaint with the police or waiting for a court judgement?”

I’ve done it twice, no problems what-so-ever! Cops were friendly and all and yes, I didn’t have any “sifarish”.

Now let me ask you, have you ever tried it yourself even once or your entire perception is solely based on hindi movies? Bashing system is so very easy but only those who have never offered a “bribe” here or there are eligible for casting stones. Having said it, there is GREAT room for improvement in India but that would come with time and effort. Things are already so much improved.

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive

@seekeroftruth

I think you should cut some slack to mlatif1983. I’ve gone through his comments & didn’t really find any fact-twisting distortions or offensive langauage, that we normally see from Pakistanis on this blog.

@mlatif1983

As an Indian American, I sympathize with you & your community for being mericlessly persecuted for your beliefs, by Pakistan & I can tell you that the whole world strongly condemns it & stands with you.
As for India being a third world country, If you go to India right now, you will see that on some levels, it is a rapidly developing country, on some it’s a third world country & on some it’s on par with any developed nation in the world. The private sector is progressing rapidly & is comparable to most developed nations but a lot is needed to be done at the public sector level & it’s here that I have to agree with you that it is a third world country. But things are rapidly changing in India & as people get more educated & aware, soon, we’ll see some good progress at the public level as well. You should visit India, sometime.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Not that its very contributing to topic but…

Couple of years back, a thief stole 3 laptops, 5 phones, 17 pairs of shoes and other stuff from my brother’s shared accommodation in Bangalore. A totally unknown city for him.

Police was able to find it within 7 days and everybody got everything back (save the shoes, I always joked with him and his friends that they were shoe maniacs).

So again, its not as bad as it may seem. But yes, everyone wants to live in perfect world. Ask westerners, I’m sure they would come with a long wishlist in so called developed countries. And bear in mind, only exceptions make news so if your sole source of reality is news, its solely exception-based.

Posted by Seth | Report as abusive

@Mortal1
I agree he/ she is not Umair!

Pardon me if you already know this, the Ahmadiya sect or whatever you call it belief system, is yet another attempt to build bridges in Punjab where it originated. It is disturbing to know somebody who claims to belong to a faith, doesn’t even know the cultural context of itsorigin. It shows how people abuse religion.

You may find this interesting:

http://www.alislam.org/library/links/000 00158.html

Fourth Head of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Association in Islam, Hadhrat Mirza Tahir Ahmad’s opinion on Lord Krishna (dt1996):
“In short, according to the Ahmadiyya belief, Hadhrat Krishna (as) was a holy Messenger of Allah. He used a language of symbols to convey to the world of that time some truths and if you read the Bhagawat Geeta in detail, it is not just an account of war between two factions. It is, in reality, a masterpiece of description of goodness pitched against evil, or evil pitched against goodness. A battle between darkness and light.”

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive

Though I am a mainstream Sunni Muslim and very much do not believe in the Ahmediya movement. The Ahmediya minority does not believe in the finality of Prophethood of Muhammad (S.A.W) or atleast their belief of finality of Prophethood is questionable.
Having said that, the people killed in Lahore on Friday were my fellow Pakistanis. And lets not forget here that this was the first such terrorist attack on an Ahmediya place of worship. Before that we have had many attacks on Sunni mainstream Mosques and known Ulema like Mufti Naemi were killed in a Mosque in a suicide bomb in Lahre after Friday prayers. I have fully supported Pakistan Army operations against the extremists, these extremists would kill anyone who does not agree to their version of Islam Whether Ahmedi or not does not make a difference to them.
My condolences and firm committment to stad up against fanatics who kill in the name of Islam

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

That is a good start UmairPk. Let’s hear you also stick up for non-muslims. Only GOD himself can sanction and see all finality on all matters like this, not human beings.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

Umair,

All I have to say to you is I respect you as a Sunni for your beliefs, but you have to know, mankind’s knowledge changes and so does the way we look at the world and see ourself in it. As knowledge changes, so does our outlook on the world and our ability to reason and see beyond and make shifts in our thinking. Not all beliefs need be completely static forever, we quit growing if that is a case, as human beings and as a race.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

i dont have words to express my feelings only want to pass on message to mankind that Allah Almighty created the world for love and peace and the evil want hate and fuss in the world. Can they understand where they stand?
In the Path of Allah Almighty or in the hands of the evil.

Holy Quran which says “whosoever killed a person …it shall be as if he had killed all mankind” (5:33) or, “And create not disorder in the earth” (7:57

Posted by imranfaris | Report as abusive

known Ulema like Mufti Naemi were killed in a Mosque in a suicide bomb in Lahre after Friday prayers.

===

This is the same Mufti Naeemi who advocated jihad against India! And he was born in India!

He was a cleric who was aligned with pakistan army’s selective use of terrorism.

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive

Seekeroftruth:
Mufti Naemi was martyred because he issued a ruling against suicide attacks and took a courageous stand against religious extrimists. The voice of reason and moderation was silenced by fanatics. But soon those fanatics found themselves in real trouble when the Pakistani Army moved in to tribal areas and dragged them out of their hideouts to pay for their crimes.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

[...] fierce debate about the nature of Pakistani society triggered by the killing of more than 80 Ahmadis in two mosques in Lahore last month continues to run and [...]

This is serious act of terrorism against humanity and should be seriously condemn by all.The fact that human being are separated by religion sect,does not mean that others should be humiliated for their faith.Those that create this act should know that, the days ahead are always unknown.Ahmadis are always known for their peace and loving attitude to the entire universal.Allah is the overseer of all,he knows what ever is in the heaven and earth,he punishes who ever he wish and guide who he want.
May peace continue to reign in the entire world.

Posted by absyusuf | Report as abusive

May god bless nadeem paracha. He is a lone wolf, standing almost alone facing the entire army of jackals.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

@ I have read some commentries of nadeem paracha second hand on different subjects and would regard him a fifth columnist for Pakistan. May God bless him and send him to God blessed country USA! There are many in the USA media as well as Pakistan media, whom I would classify them as fifth columnists.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

Have we not witnessed in the last decade the take over of the clergy by the evil and as a result we see the destability in several corners of the qworld? Why blame the thousands year religion for the folly of the clergy and the incompetent politicians. I have the impression that the media shares some responsibility for the turmoils. Infidels are being sought among muslims is beyond comprehension and the translation of Jehad into a holy war are the glaring examples of madness.
No one can deny that in today’s world mass hysteria is very real.
It is the responsibility of the State to protect its citizens and not use the military to protect the politicans. This is still not understood in the Indian sub-continent despite claims of democracy. On top of that there are countries whose Foreign Ministers do no longer practice diplomacy but continually interfere in the domestic affairs of other countries. What the people need is some sort of order in the world. The current UNO must be restructured and not remain the tool of the few. The people have no more stamina to cry for the victims all the time.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

Love for All, Hatred for None – what a motto Ahmadi Community has. What a beautiful society this community is giving to world and Pakistan, and what Pakistan has done with them.

Posted by Mohsinsiddiqi | Report as abusive

@Rex Minor, Pakistan, whatever you call yourself,

In Pakistan, anybody with a humanistic, logical, modernistic, secular point of view is a fifth columnist.

The majority, somehow have ended up on the wrong political part of the spectrum from years of propaganda and steady mind control, radio and TV blockouts and mass hysteria set forth on Pakistani minds from childhood to rape their minds and warp them from birth.

I hope Pakistan gives rise to legions of fifth column reporters. With the internet and facebook, the prevailing mysogenitistic, supremicist, racist, one-sided, polarized political establishment will be pushed aside and forced to stare at its ugly face and the truth about itself.

Fifth column writers will bring an awakening and happen it will, not if, but when.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

@G-W
The awakening of the People comes from education, education as well as the freedom of expression in a country. The misuse of media by some individuals or a group of organisations must in today’s time be overseen by the independent organisations. Today the media in some countries is controlled by very sinister forces and this is not healthy for a country which is not yet a Nation with all its manifestations. The individual Turks like Nadeem Paracha do have an important role to play in the society. Equally,it is harmful to preach for a secular system to the man in the street in a so named muslim State without any explanation as to what is missing in the Islamic way of life. The jornalists have the same reponsibility as the common man to uphold the laws of the country. Perhaps the country needs to reform its laws which discriminate against a certain part of the society.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

[...] via Killings of Ahmadis unleashes fresh soul-searching over Pakistan’s identity. [...]

[...] “Is this Jinnah’s Pakistan? No,” wrote Raza Rumi on his blog. “We have gone too far and pessimists are now saying that the process of destroying Pakistani society is irreversible. There is still hope that we shall overcome this menace if Pakistani public opinion is fashioned to look a little deeper inside and not find all sources of evil in Washington or Delhi.” Read more online. [...]

[...] makes the latest attacks worrying though, is the deliberately religious choice of targets – first the minority Ahmadi sect, then a Sufi shrine - suggesting that the tactics and indeed the nature of militancy in Pakistan [...]