Pakistan’s Ahmadi killings and the conscience of a nation

June 7, 2010

graveyardThe fierce debate about the nature of Pakistani society triggered by the killing of more than 80 Ahmadis in two mosques in Lahore last month continues to run and run.

Much of the discussion is about why the government had failed to stop the religious right from preaching hatred against the Ahmadis, who are considered non-Muslims in Pakistan because they revere their 19th century founder Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, breaching – according to Pakistani law – a requirement that Muslims accept the finality of the Prophet Mohammad.

While authorities had been willing to shut down Facebook over a competition to draw the Prophet, it had not dared take action to remove banners preaching hatred against the Ahamdis, fearing a backlash from the religious right, Dawn newspaper complained in an editorial.

In a chronicle of deaths foretold, Professor C.M. Naim tracks the earlier killing of an Ahmadi, a retired teacher, in January in the town of Ferozewal. In an article in India’s Outlook magazine (h/t Chapati Mystery) he notes that not only did the police fail to take adequate action against the man’s killers, but also that the media paid very little attention, barring one persistent reporter. He also reproduces a picture of a huge billboard in Ferozewal preaching hatred against the Ahmadis.

“Judging from the image, the sign must have dominated the roundabout where it was set up to exhort the 97.21 percent of Ferozewala’s population against the unfortunate 0.25. It had stayed up for weeks. Thousands, including any number of men with power and authority, saw it but chose to do nothing. Finally a retired schoolteacher victimized by the sign and fearing worse approached the police for relief. A few days later, he ended up dead,” he writes.

He adds: “The following too went unnoticed:

  • On January 14, an Ahmadi mosque built in1982 near Rabwah was taken away from them by court orders and handed to anti-Ahmadis, “in order to pre-empt extreme law and order disturbances”.
  • On January 28, a court at Vehari, Punjab, sentenced three Ahmadis to imprisonment and fines on trumped up charges of preaching their religion to “simple Muslims”.
  • On February 3, an Ahmadi was similarly killed at Shehdadpur, Sindh.
  • On April 1, three Ahmadi traders were ambushed and killed near Faisalabad.

“Then, on May 28, 2010, in well-organized attacks on two Ahmadi mosques in Lahore, just a few miles away from Ferozewala, more than 90 Ahmadis were killed and scores wounded. We can only hope it was the worst such incident, for unfortunately it was not the last. On June 1, just three days later, the Daily Times reported another killing: an Ahmadi man was stabbed to death in his home and his son seriously wounded in Narowal, Punjab. The assailant, who reportedly threatened not to leave any Ahmadi alive, escaped.”

“Here’s a question,” writes Nadeem Paracha at Dawn. “How come whenever there’s a drone attack …  or a case of perceived obscenity or blasphemy surfaces, street corners are at once filled with burqa-clad women and bearded men chanting slogans like ‘Death to infidels’? But none of these fine, sensitive Muslims can be seen protesting when there’s an attack on innocent civilians —Ahmadis or others — by the extremists?”

Former Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif, whose brother Shahbaz Sharif is chief minister of Punjab province where the killings took place,  this weekend spoke in defence of the Ahmadis, calling them ”our brethren and an asset of the country”, according to The News. The Sharif brothers in the past have been accused of sympathising with the Islamists and were criticised after newspapers published pictures of the law minister in Punjab – who is loyal to the two – campaigning in a by-election in February with leaders of the outlawed sectarian Sipah e Sahaba.

The post-mortem on the Ahmadi mosque killings is now turning into a bigger discussion of whether secular liberals have any real influence on Pakistani society as it grows more religious and conservative.

“The problem is that there aren’t nearly enough of us for this to matter,” complains the blog Five Rupees. “There are a few scattered in the blogosphere and Twitterverse, and a couple of columnists for Dawn, and the Daily Times editorial board, but that’s it. There are, functionally speaking, no liberals in Pakistan. Oh, there’s plenty of scotch-drinking social liberals (think Salman Taseer). But liberalism and progressivism is not about drinking scotch or wearing jeans. Liberalism is about equality and freedom and personal choice and rationality and the privileging of the individual, and no one believes in those things.”

“We’ve been talking about the dangers of militancy for a long, long time — well before 9/11. That no one bothers listening is not an indictment of the “failed politics of Pakistani liberals”. It’s an indictment of everyone else.  If mainstream Pakistan wants to ignore us, fine, that’s their prerogative. But don’t blame us when shit goes bad.”

And in Britain’s Guardian newspaper,  Mustafa Qadri notes that more and more Pakistanis are turning to prayer given the failure of the state to provide a credible, secular alternative.

“Uncertainty is an inherent part of the human experience, but in Pakistan much of what a reader in Britain might take for granted is far from certain. How long will the electricity last today? Where will the next bomb go off? And, for most who do not inhabit my privileged world, will I be able to afford the right medication if I fall ill? The profound loss of control felt by long-term illness sufferers and their loved ones has become a countrywide phenomenon in Pakistan.

“The situation has exacerbated our cultural tendency to avow causation in favour of fate and the rewards of prayer. Whether looking for a job, waiting anxiously for exam results or willing the national cricket team to victory, prayer has become a kneejerk source of solace and comfort in difficult times. Holy men, or pirs, and local soothsayers have for generations made a career out of selling their prayers to those in need.

“And why not? Doing the right thing, like expecting to get a plum job without working family contacts, rarely seems to lead to results in our country. During my travels I have met several academically bright students from middle-class backgrounds who complain they cannot get into top university courses because wealthier classmates have paid to gain entrance. The experience for the millions below the middle class, who could never dream of a university education, is even more dire.”

At the very least, the killings of the Ahmadis has prompted a real discussion about the direction Pakistan is headed in. And even, some poetry. One day, looking back, it may well be seen as a turning point.

Comments

Prominent newspapers in Pakistan have published fatwas issued by Mullahs that Ahmadis are blasphemers without any remorse over the tragedy of last week. This will get more Ahmadis killed but the media does not seem to care what to print.

Posted by Usman01 | Report as abusive
 

“whether secular liberals have any real influence on Pakistani society”
—-

Westerners should shed the myth that “secular” paks are innocent lambs..pakistani generals who are “secular” with “modern outlook” are the ones who volunteered eagerly for anti-Soviet jihad and deliberately allowed growth of virulent wahabi islam. Ahmadiyas were declared non-muslims by the “secular” ZA Bhutto…

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive
 

There’s some eerily striking parallels between the run-up to the Holocaust in Hitler’s Germany and slow and steady dehumanization of minorities (particularly the Ahmadis) in Pakistan.

Just look at how the Third Reich got going by stripping Jews of their rights and citizenship. And now look at Pakistan’s efforts at chipping away at the rights of Ahmadis, first by declaring them to be non-Muslims.

Let’s hope we don’t see another holocaust in Pakistan. The Bengali holocaust was enough for South Asia. Hopefully, Pakistan stops drifting towards another.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

The current Chief Minister of Punjab in Pakistan sounds a lot like like the Chief Minister of Gujarat from a few years ago.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

@KEiThZ

With such a compartmentalized psyche, is it any wonder how someone can preach hate and death and in the same breath claim that they are good muslims? In the persuit of religiously political perfection, I think a lot of paks are blind to the way that they devalue non-muslims and different types of muslims. So much prayer, yet so much death. Sometimes it feel this is religion gone wrong.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

Keith
Let me make it clear that I am a mainstream Sunni and I have had Ahmedi class fellow in school, I drive to work every day passing Ahmedi places of worship and even at my workplace their are many Ahmedis. The way you are trying to potray Ahmedi’s being persecuted in Pakistan is absolutely far from reality. Drawing any comparisons with the Nazis and the holocaust is just an insult.

Even in Canada Muslims are persecuted, you cant wear an hijab and attend a school or university in Canada. So much hypocricy, you are a citizen of a country that discriminates against other faiths and are intolerant against Muslims. Yet you accuse Pakistan of genocide.

The only genocide i see happening is that of Canadian Forces in Afghanistan if they dont get their butts moving out of Afghanistan real quick.

As with the Ahmedis, they are our fellow Pakistan. The Punjab provivincial government is stepping up their security and Pakistan Army is already tightening the noose against millitants in Southern Punjab. We will turn the situation around and once again you Pakistan haters will be proved wrong.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

STATISTICAL ESTIMATE

Islamic Republic of Pakistan
Democracy
97% Muslim population
Mainstream Sunni
Facing terrorist attacks, Military Forces operating against terrorist groups.
Attacks on Sunni Mosques= more than 100′s
Sunni Victims= numbered in 1000′s
Shia’s could be second largest victims
Attacks on Ahmedis= sporadic in their tens
Ahmedi victims= A few hundered precious human lives lost just like other victims.

Point to make, Ahmedia minority came under attack just like other Pakistanis who have been victims of terrorist strikes.
Pakistan is largely a muslim nation, a democracy though not perfect but with an independent judiciary and a vibrant media. It’s military and law enforcement agencies have responded in full support of citizens whenever their has been a terrorist attack. Now where is the state sanctioning the persecution of any minority? There are no pits dug to dispose bodies, no poison or gas chambers no media blackout, no mass removal of people from their homes, no concentration camps. Not even a sign that something of this nature to take place in Pakistan even in a hundered years to some. Every media outlet is free to go anywhere in Pakistan and see whats happeining and report. Its not a close society here.

But serial Pakistan haters, intolerant, ignorant, full of hypocricy claiming to be westernized, modern, peace loving, torch bearing champions of Human rights, guardians of the unversal declaration of human rights could have such biased views is completely unacceptable.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

PAKISTAN VS CANADA

The reality of CANADA by Baltimore Chronicle

“By persecuting the innocent, Canada like America, defiles its principles, laws, and fundamental human rights and values – a clear sign of emerging fascism under which all rights are lost.”
http://baltimorechronicle.com/2010/06011 0Lendman.shtml

CANADA’S WAR ON ISLAM
by Stephen Lendman 01 June 2010 (BALTIMORE CHRONICLE)
“Like in America post-9/11, Canadian Muslims have been victimized, vilified, and persecuted for their faith, ethnicity, prominence, and activism. They’ve been targeted, hunted down, rounded up, held in detention, kept in isolation, denied bail, restricted in their right to counsel, tried on secret evidence, convicted or incriminated on bogus charges, given long sentences and incarcerated as political prisoners or deported to certain torture, imprisonment or death by so-called democratic countries that, in fact, mock the rule of law and judicial fairness.”

SHAME ON CANADA.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

THE TRUE FACE OF FASCIST CANADA

Victims are pawns in the war on terror – how rogue states intimidate populations to accept foreign wars and homeland repression to mask their more sinister agenda. Today, it reflects unbridled militarism, permanent wars, imperial conquest, and planned economic crises causing lost jobs, homes, benefits, futures, and the greatest ever wealth transfer to the rich, largely below the radar.

In her 2005 paper, “Securing Canada: Muslims and the Myth of Multiculturalism in the post-911 World,” Samantha Arnold discussed the environment as defined by Canada’s Anti-Terrorism Act and the Canadian-US Smart Border Declaration, saying:

“….Arab and Muslim Canadians have been ‘painted with the bin Laden brush,’ cast as terrorists, interrogated and detained on the basis of secret evidence, subjected to hate crimes, denied passage across international borders, represented in racist and demeaning ways in the media, and constructed as ‘aliens’ in Canada notwithstanding their citizenship (or legal residency) status.”

It flies in the face of the country’s image as a tolerant, compassionate society, embracing diversity and multiculturalism – the very “foundational myth of this country, a mythical heritage of tolerance that turns on the historical reconciliation of French, English, and Aboriginal peoples.” In fact, the reality unmasks the mythology, Mohamed Harkat one of many prime examples, an innocent man victimized for political advantage, so far denied due process and judicial fairness.
———————————————————

What do you say Keith? which one is better? A Nazi Pakistan or a fascist Canada?

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

@UmairPk,

You label canada as being facist or racist? Go and get your head checked buddy. Last I checked, minorities are not getting slaughtered or genocided in Canada. In fact, I as a Hindu have many muslim friends that have emigrated from places like Africa, Pakistan, India, UK, Dubai, Jordan and all if them chose to come to Canada.

All of my muslim friends are naturalized citizens of Canada and proud canadians and say that they would never go back to their country of origin. I think you are reading an extreme leftist paper by someone who is an extreme apologist at heart, heck I think Ms. Arnold even apologies for squishing bugs every morning as she goes to work. So don’t believe just one source of info.

If you recall the Toronto 18. They were muslim youths, and I believe even one of them was quoted as wanting to go so far as even beheading the PM of Canada. All of the local mosques did not do enough to watch over their Pakistani’ breatheren. The Gov’t has a duty to watch terrorism and arrest and make examples of those that chose to hurt democractic, law abiding peoples.

If muslims hate Canada, UK, USA so much, why would they rather come here to drive cab, than live in Lahore, Rawalpindi or Islamabad and do their own profession?

Canada is about as tolerant and soft as a society gets., Umair, you should hang out with westerners here, if you ever get a chance and take of your “I am a Pakistani muslim hat”. If you can’t make it here.. you can’t make it anywhere, you best just go back.

With regards to terrorism, any country has every right to limit or bar peoples from where terrorism originates, that is our right to ask of our government, that is not racism, that is our right to feel protected. BTW, muslims from all non-Pak countries are doing just fine here, they are thriving, buying houses, having kids, doing their jobs, and enjoying canada day celebrations, and many of them come in Islamic clothes and there is nothing wrong with that, it is unique.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

Umair, I assume that you believe tha Ahmadiyas are equal to Sunni’s as muslims? Please clarify. Have the courage to say the right thing. Do you agree with the Bhutto’s decree labelling the Ahmediya as non-muslims? A simple yes or no will do.

Canada is the easiest place in the world to get welfare, that is why a lot of immigrants come here. There is unemployment insurance and free health care, sounds like extremely harsh and unfair facist treatment to me.

Let’s not forget famous rape victim Muktara Mai the heroine of Pakistan. Her mysogenistic treatment exposed every type of ugliness of Pakistan. I don’t believe Kaffirs and women in general are legally equal to muslim men in Pakistan, legally or constitutionally. Is that not facist or racist? What is fair about that? Pakistan is a muslim country for muslims…racist from its inception until today.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

G-W
Canada has gone to the point of disowning its own citizens in the case of Kahdr family. Many other examples are evident of the intolerance and hate of the western society towards Muslims. Now you are acting liberal, and enlightened and someone who is openly forthcoming towards the Muslims that is not the case. In the west now when you dress up in Muslim clothing you are labelled as a terrorist. you can’t even have a Muslim name.
Why the heck you guys are so worried about Ahmedis in Pakistan? Ahmedis are thriving in countries like Canada whereas as manistream Sunni muslims get labelled as terrorists in those countries. Something is fundamentaly wrong here, all I am doing is exposing the racism, intolerance, injustice and bias that exists in Canada against the Muslims. What I find ridicuolous about Canada is their government structure too, what is the role of Governor General? The conservative PM Stephen Harper has ruined Canada’s reputation by siding with war mongering neo-cons in America. Above that you have the Queen as head of state, what crap?. And who doesnt know that doctors, surgeons, qualified engineers end up cleaning toilets and washing dishes in Canada. Canada is rather a hellhole for immigrants, a nightmare where your dreams are shattered you end up doing menial jobs and your self respect is finished. Atleast in their home countries, immigrants can live as first class citizens. I am a Pakistani, i Live in Pakistan and am a citizen of the world. I stand up for peoples rights, justice and equality and am proud of it. Rather ending up as a lowlife immigrant in Canada, I prefer to live as a first class citizen in Pakistan. true there is corruption here, there are lack of opportunities, but we will build a better country and hand it over to our future generation.

And let me also tell you I have lived and worked abroad and had many Indian friends, both hindus and Msulims.

All I did is to launch a reply to an allegation by Keith, that Pakistan is turning like Nazi Germany. Can anyone answer me now, Why is Canada or US or France or Switzerland so called liberal, tolerant, peace-loving, progressive societies be biased, racist, intolerant towards Muslims? They do not allow Muslim women to wear Hijab and go to school, they do not allow freedom of expression, freedom of speech is denied to Muslims, intolerance and hate crimes towards Muslims are on the rise in these so called western societies. Muslims are being persecuted, you can be easily offloaded from boarding a plane, your name can pull from any no-fly list, you can be pulled out of an immigration queue, you can be denied entry, detained without a charge if Your Muslim name is spelled in a certain way.

You cannot accuse Pakistan of anything until you can prove your own society is free of evil. No society is evil, no religion is evil, no country is evil. Its the people among those society who do not stand up to evil and eradicate it are to be blamed. People like me, if we do not stand up against the violence perpetrated on Ahmedis in Pakistan, we are to be blamed. People like you in west who do not speak up against the intolerance against Muslims are to be blamed.

And you don’t want me to pull up the statistics of Muslim vs Non-Muslim countries in terms of rape, murder, violent crime, armed robberies, car jackings, etc. many so called western cities will turn out to be rape and murder capitals of the world.

Stop potraying Canada as a Utopian wonderland, their reality is now exposed. France is afraid of Muslims wearing Hijab, Switzerland bans construction of minerates of Mosques, Canada bans muslim girls from going to school if they wear hijab. Among all this hatred, you are also frightened of Islam. What a pity.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

G-W:

“I assume that you believe tha Ahmadiyas are equal to Sunni’s as muslims? Please clarify. Have the courage to say the right thing. Do you agree with the Bhutto’s decree labelling the Ahmediya as non-muslims? A simple yes or no will do.”

-My Answer is, Islam has five pillars:
1.Kalima
2.Namaz (Prayer 5 times a day)
3.Zakat (alms/charity to poor)
4.Fasting (Fast in the month of Ramadan)
5.Haj(Pilgrimage to Makkah once in a lifetime)

Lets see what first pillar Kalima is:

?? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ????
“L? elaha ella Allah, Muhammad ur-Rasul Allah”
Trabslation: “No one is Lord but Allah, and Muhammad (S.A.W) is the messanger of Allah”

It means a Muslim testify that only Allah is worthy of worship, and Muhammad(S.A.W) is true Messenger of Allah. Muhammad(S.A.W) is the final Prophet now till the day of judgement there will be no more Prophet. This is what my belief is as a Sunni Muslim.

I think what Ahmedis say is that their founder of Ahmediya movement proclaimed to have divine power and their belief in the finality of Prophethood is questionable. I read somewhere someone was arguing that Ahmedis comply with all but one pillar of Islam. In my words, they are as closest as you can get to a Muslim. But I do not want to go into more detail, i cannot term them as i like. I have been to Mecca and Medina for Umra Pilgrimage and their in the grand Mosques you have phone booths connecting you directly to the offices of religious scholars on the top floor of the Mosques. You can present them with any question, and they have the knowledge and authority to decree, they clarify and give their ‘fatwa’ or ruling. For the question of Ahmedis being Muslim or otherwise, or they being equal to Sunnis is obsolete and irrelevant for me. Lets leave that to the expert scholars and Ulema. They will decide. My argument is, Ahmedis are still Pakistanis and (should) have full rights as other Pakistani citizens.
Now to Zulfiqar Bhutto terming them as Non-Muslims or Pakistani parliament passing any resolution. first that was a long time even when I was born. Secondly what do you expect if you say or do something in a Majority Muslim country with 97% population follow same belief, you come up with something different from the mainstream. Others might think you are deviated. Pakistan’s supreme court and parliament are here to repeal any laws and lawmakers can pass new bills in the parliament. If the Ahmedis can defend their beliefs, the supreme court can overturn the law and repeal it. As I said Pakistan is a democracy.

Lastly, to Myra;

In your article you stated:
“Ahmadis, who are considered non-Muslims in Pakistan because they revere their 19th century founder Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, breaching – according to Pakistani law – a requirement that Muslims accept the finality of the Prophet Mohammad.”

I think its not just the Pakistani law but Islam itself the islamic law states that a Muslim should accept the finality of Prophet Muhammad(S.A.W)Its the same in every Muslim country.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Anti-Muslim Dutch lawmaker tests freedom of speech

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0  ,8599,1958902,00.html

Geert Wilders Dutch MP incites hatred and discrimination against Muslims in Holland. Because of his extreme anti-Muslim views, Wilders is often compared to the leaders of Europe’s other far-right parties, such as Nick Griffin of the British National Party and Jean-Marie Le Pen of France’s National Front.

Testing the Limits of free speech in Holland.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Viel wars Reveal Europe’s intolerance.

Politicians seeking to stop a small minority of Muslim women from wearing the veil in Public are actually trying to send a harsh message to an ambattled community.

Defying the prejudices and stereotypes that cling to their religion, the ranks of successful Muslim professionals are swelling across Europe, their complex struggle to get ahead is underway.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

EXPOSING ISLAMOPHOBIC EUROPE

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0  ,8599,1948078,00.html

Study: European Muslims Feel Shut Out

-About 20 million Muslims live in the European Union, mostly in capital cities and large industrial towns; they already make up 25% of the population in Marseilles, France, and Rotterdam in the Netherlands; 20% in Malmö, Sweden; 15% in Brussels and Birmingham, England; and 10% in London, Paris and Copenhagen. The report, published on Dec. 15, surveyed Muslims in 11 cities across the E.U. and found that 55% of respondents believed religious discrimination had risen in the past five years. ———————————————————-

Probably it is a good idea to discuss the plight of Ahmedis in Pakistan as well as the general plight of mainstream Muslims in Europe and West as a whole together. Lets not label anyone as Nazi or antisemitic etc.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Umair,

It does not make any sense, equating isolated incidents of racial profiling and/or religious discrimination in Canada, Europe, west etc. to the butchering of 100+ Ahmadiayas while they prayed at their place of worship in Pakistan.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

Mortal
It doesn’t make any sense either, equating a once off incident of terrorist attack on Ahmedis in Pakistan to the holocaust of Jews at the hands of Nazis.
Pakistan is at the forefront of a war against terrorists and there have been many attacks on even mainstream Sunni muslims in Pakistan. However the government is putting in every effort to protect minorities.

You still didn’t answer my question? Why is Canada or US or France or Switzerland so called liberal, tolerant, peace-loving, progressive societies be biased, racist, intolerant towards Muslims? They do not allow Muslim women to wear Hijab and go to school, they do not allow freedom of expression, freedom of speech is denied to Muslims, intolerance and hate crimes towards Muslims are on the rise in these so called western societies.

It is easier to criticise others and point fingers unless self introspection is done.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Pregnant Egyptian muslim woman stabbed 18 times and died outside German courtroom. Such brutality against Muslims in Europe:

“Marwa al-Sherbini, 31, was giving evidence in July against a man charged with defamation for having called her a ‘terrorist’ and ‘Islamist’ when he attacked her with a kitchen knife he had sneaked into court. ”

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article- 1223018/Man-accused-stabbing-pregnant-Mu slim-woman-death-inside-German-court-goe s-trial-tight-security.html

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

It is becoming evident that treatment of Muslims in Europe and west is not just confined to isolated incidents of racial profiling and/or religious discrimination. You can easily get killed in Europe and America if you are a Muslim facing hate crime and seeking justice= Persecution of Muslims in west.

Why is Canada or US or France or Switzerland so called liberal, tolerant, peace-loving, progressive societies be biased, racist, intolerant towards Muslims? They do not allow Muslim women to wear Hijab and go to school, they do not allow freedom of expression, freedom of speech is denied to Muslims, intolerance and hate crimes towards Muslims are on the rise in these so called western societies.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Whether Pakistanis have any conscience? On a recent trip to Dubai, I had met some very very educated and professional Pakistanis , and majority of them are of the opinion that 26/11, Mumbai Attack is a conspiracy hatched by militant hindu groups like Shiv Sena or Bajrang Dal . The most important point here is Pakistani society is devoid of any conscience, it is a brutal society ,full of religious fanatics, and hatred.

Posted by manishindia | Report as abusive
 

Manishindia
You still didnt answer my question, Why is Canada or US or France or Switzerland so called liberal, tolerant, peace-loving, progressive societies be biased, racist, intolerant towards Muslims? They do not allow Muslim women to wear Hijab and go to school, they do not allow freedom of expression, freedom of speech is denied to Muslims, intolerance and hate crimes towards Muslims are on the rise in these so called western societies.

Two wrongs do not make a right, I accepted we in Pakistan need to work to correct many things. Can you answer my question above too?

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Umair, sometimes if feels as if you are psychologically deranged, but come unhinged very easily at the mention of certain things.

First of all I respect your belief as a Sunni, I am not debating your religion here. But I am debating your application of religion and the political manner of it. While Pakistan has done a great job defining what constitutes a muslim, there needs to be a greater job of defining what constitutes a human being and that is required, if minorities are to be able to engage their rights in fair manner. Currently, democracy will not work for minorities in Pakistan, especially because Kaffirs are considered 1/4 human witness against a muslim suspect.

I need to understand one thing here. If Pakistan is for muslims, why cannot other countries be for themselves too?

With regards to the hijab, most women find it degrading and choose not to wear it. Also, people in western societies like to be able to see someone’s face when they talk to them. Heck, why don’t we just let the KKK wear their white hats? Western societies allow Sikhs to wear turbans, even police in Canada wear turbans. The key difference here is covering up of the face, to westerners it is derogatory towards women to force them to be covered up and most women in western society find it degrading. It is not racism, it is humanism. We actually like and respect the right of women to express their beauty, because men in the west, for the most part do not go crazy looking at a woman’s face, because we are conditioned to see each other’s face, when we talk to each other. BTW, the University that I went to, the Islamic women all had Hijab’s and wore them openly, so I don’t know where your Hijab ban rule comes from.

Muslims have build mosques everywhere from Europe to North America, and a lot of them. Can the west also build Christian and Buddhist temples in Saudi Arabia, or Pakistan?…not really Heck, is India allowed to build Mandirs in Saudi, or Pakistan?…just something to think about…

With regards to Pakistan professionals getting jobs in NA. In NA, most professions are self regulated and their duty is to uphold high standards and do their job to protect the public from shoddy work practices. This applies to Engineering, law, medicine and other fields. So basically Umair, if you can pass the board exams, your school of origin, its’s curriculum was upto CDN standards, you had good marks AND you can communicate well and write well in English, you can work here, no problem, because then foreign trained people are at the same level as CDN professionals. The problem is, is that some foreigners, esp. from Pakistan, either they have poor communication, did not meet pre-requisites, did not have a curriculum that is upto CDN standards or they could not pass the written exams because they have poor English. There also very bright Pakistani’ professionals who pass with flying colors and have no problem and integrate extremely well. Unfortunately, the ones that don’t cut it, they start blaming their problems on racism, and other such things, when in fact, they could not make the cut and meet the required standards, so they get bitter and do some menial jobs and some don’t care to go back to Pakistan, but would rather slug it out and stay. I am proud to have worked with many Canadian muslims who are truly world class professionals and they deserve every bit of success that they have. These guys were too smart to want to stay in their own country, they came to Canada for a better life and found it and don’t want to ever go back. Please explain this phenomenon..are you going to call them non-muslims now?

You have to understand Umair, integration is the reason why democracies function well, there is give and take. I really shake my head when immigrants come to another country and keep with their own kind for solace, rather than reach out, have fun, learn, be happy, some people withdraw to the solace of their country men and complain about how bad things are. It seems some immigrants and people like you need to be reminded that things are actually quite good for muslims in western countries. I cannot say the same for the tortured Mr. Sampson or the Canadian who was to be beheaded in Saudi.

Immigration is a good thing and needed. But that does not mean that the liberalism should be hijacked against the host country to allow almost any thing to go either.

You should come to Canada, you can go anywhere and you will see muslims carrying out about their business, they are successful and contributing canadians and proud of their achievements and think little of people like you who choose to belittle their hard work.

Minorities are not getting physically butchered en mass, like they are in Pakistan. If things are so bad in the west, why leave your own country come to such a horrible, evil racist place? Your arguments make no sense at all.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

Umair, BTW, one of my relatives was treated for Heart disease by a Pakistan Trained Cardiologist. There was also a Saudi doctor treating my relative. Both are well qualified Canadians, who have met requirements. Please let that concept of high standards sink into your head. There are a lot of foreigners who have had substandard training, can’t communicate well, trained on outdated equipment, these people will not be good representatives of their professions and are in fact somewhat dangerous to the public and need to upgrade before they practice, especially with regards to medicine and engineering.

Some come to Canada without even checking transferability of their prerequisites from their Pak University and they come here and can’t get certified, but don’t want to upgrade either. They get frustrated with the requirements and give up and drive cab. That is not racism, that is an individual not willing to do what it takes to reach board certification requirements.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

One more thing, if Canada just allows all immigrants to come and work here, without being properly certified, that makes it extremely unfair to Canadian students, who actually paid to goto school, met the requirements and have to compete for jobs with people who have not certified. On top of that, those CDN students, their parents paid taxes their whole lives here to support the country. Tell me what you think is fair. Please be sure not to play anymore victim hood, it is making you look foolish and killing all of your arguements.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 
 

@”However the government is putting in every effort to protect minorities” Posted by Umairpk

And how exactly is your govenrment doing that? The last time I checked, it has taken absolutely no action whatsoever against the individuals/groups responsible for killing and/or inciting violence against the Ahmadiyyas & other minorities (Shias, Sikhs, Chistians, Hindus etc).

@ “You still didn’t answer my question? Why is Canada or US or France or Switzerland so called liberal, tolerant, peace-loving, progressive societies be biased, racist, intolerant towards Muslims?”

Aren’t you exaggerating things here? I live in the US & frequently travel to the other countries you list above. Yes I agree that since 9/11, racial & religious profiling has increased to an extent and there might be isolated incidents of discrimination againts muslims but in all these countries, bereeved muslims (or others for that matter) who have been discrimated against, have recourse. For instance, here in the US, they can file complaints at the concerned civil liberties organization & believe me, action is taken against culprits.
A year ago, an Iranian american friend of mine was denied ownership in a condo association for “unspecified reasons”. He filed a complaint with the relevant authorities & within a month, not only did he get the ownership title with a letter of apology from the condo association, the association also had to pay a hefty fine.

@”They do not allow Muslim women to wear Hijab and go to school, they do not allow freedom of expression, freedom of speech is denied to Muslims”

I have actually seen more Hijab wearing girls going to school, here in the US than I’ve seen in India. The only country which has wrongfully banned head gear in the west is France and it’s not just for muslims. Sikhs can’t wear turbans & Jews can’t wear yammakas either. The US has strongly condemned france’s policy. As for freedom of speech, no freedom of speech is denied to any muslim here in the US. They can complain, protest, hold rallies & do what ever they want withing legal limitations. They have the same rights which others do, no more & no less.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive
 

G-W
I am not being negative, I had mentioned Canada because of Keith’s allegation that Pakistan is turning out like Nazi Germany. I know the nature of Canada’s immigration program. Its not that only people from developing nations have problem settling into Canada. Even doctors from very good outside countries are lured to Canada and the Canadian CIC lures them only to waste their potential.

Canada is only got for retiring with an insurance of good healthcare later in retirement years. Even in Gulf nations people would qualify for Canada immigration and go there, after landing pick up their PR Card and return to their high paid jobs in Gulf. However that is a different discussion altogether. I agree Canada is a welcoming country, all I was making a point that yes there are problems faced by Ahmedi minority in Pakistan. But similar problems are faced by minorities in Europe, Canada and US West etc.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive
 

Mortal, Rajeev,

I think Umair is determined to maintain a victimhood mindset for all muslims, worldwide.

At some point you have to quit blaming everybody else, ie another country, race, religion for all of your problems and take responsibility for your life and ask yourself, what did you do today to improve your life and those around you.

Some people are unimpressible, it is just a collective human or cultural thing, I don’t know. You can keep giving and giving and giving, they will always find fault, like a bottomless pit, you cannot keep them happy or ever fill them. They will take and take and take and they will always find something to whine, complain and cry about. Umair at times displays such a mentality.

Quite frankly, people are getting fed up and tired of this.

Gratefulness is, from what I understand is one of the tenets of Islam:

http://ipaki.com/content/html/27/428.htm l

Some people need to ask if they are grateful enough and if they aren’t, perhaps they should seek this within themselves before they ask the world to fix itself.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

The Ahmadiyya Muslim Community is a peace loving law abiding community whose motto is love for all hatred for none. They promote education, tolerance, and citizenship. They also have a presence in 187 countries of the world and endeavour to exert a constructive influence through social projects, educational institutes and health services. The Ahmadiyya Muslim Community numbers between 3 and 4 million people in Pakistan.

Human Rights Commission of Pakistan (HRCP) had warned the Punjab government about threats to the Ahmedi community centre in Model Town “for more than a year.”

Ahmadi Muslims endure “the most severe legal restrictions and officially-sanctioned discrimination” among Pakistan’s religious minorities, according to the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom.

USCIRF, an independent, bipartisan U.S. government commission, said in its latest annual report that “Ahmadis may not call their places of worship ‘mosques,’ worship in non-Ahmadi mosques or public prayer rooms which are otherwise open to all Muslims, perform the Muslim call to prayer, use the traditional Islamic greeting in public, publicly quote from the Koran, or display the basic affirmation of the Muslim faith.” The agency says it’s illegal for the group to preach publicly, pursue converts, pass out religious material, restricted from holding public conferences and travelling to Saudi Arabia for the hajj pilgrimage

The state-sanctioned discrimination began when Under pressure from hard-liners, the Pakistani government in 1974 declared the Ahmadis a non-Muslim minority. The Government and police authorities have taken no action to prevent the media from promoting the killing of Ahmadi’s by claiming they are worthy of death. This has sent a message to the culprits that they can do as they wish without fear of prosecution.

The government of Pakistan should restore the basic rights of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community including the right to vote and to give full protection to law-abiding members living in its jurisdiction.

Posted by Fazilat | Report as abusive
 

” I know the nature of Canada’s immigration program. Its not that only people from developing nations have problem settling into Canada. Even doctors from very good outside countries are lured to Canada and the Canadian CIC lures them only to waste their potential.”

–>Keithz, was drawing some parallels with Nazi Germany, which may not be entirely correct, but may not be entirely off base either. The Ahmadiya massacre is a very racist and hateful killing, the media, along with your gov’t all have some guilt to share. Much the same in Germany the beer halls were filled with unemployed men who needed to blame their problems on a minority that was financially successful..the jews.

Being able to settle into any new country is a huge task even for the most able and qualified person. Canada does not just merely “lure” people to come here. Canada is looking for qualified high quality professionals who can contribute to the country in every way and in return they will be rewarded by having a good job and a good life.

Again you blame the Gov’t for wasting the potential of somebody. That is victim hood and complete hogwash. You can’t be willfully ignorant of the rules and blame the administrative process for failing you, just because you did not do your homework or did not qualify…quit creating more victims here, it is just a case of poor qualification.

You see, my father trained me from when I was a child to never blame anybody for my troubles, otherwise, he will discipline me. I am glad he did. I had the right attitude from day one and I can’t say the same for some friends that I grew up with. They chose to have a chip on their shoulder and found uncrossable obstacles where ever they looked and always found the time and energy to imaginatively create a new scape goat to their problems.

This self defeating mindset has to change, it kills imagination and potential.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

Thank you for the fact based posting Fazilat. It was enlightening.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

@I think Umair is determined to maintain a victimhood mindset for all muslims, worldwide.”
-GW

—If he looks at all religions, not just Muslims, it will be better.
_______________________

Do you guys think that Ahmedias/Islam in can be compared to Ravidassias/Sikhs. Sikhs do not believe in live Gurus—Guru Granth Sahib–the holy book- is the last Guru. But Ravidassia sect believes in live Gurus. There was trouble over this in Punjab India.

HOWEVER, govt has nothing to do with it. People can claim Ravidassia act as blasphemy but govt does not approve that. This is the big difference between Ahmedias and Ravidassia.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive
 

Umair,

It’s laughable that you are going to compare Canada and Pakistan’s human rights record. We haven’t slaughtered millions of our own citizens as recently as 40 years ago. Nor do we have hate crimes like this one against the Ahmadis taking place on a routine basis.

Forget somebody getting killed. A mere attack on a minority, graffiti on a mosque or synagogue is considered a huge deal. It’s investigated right away. The crime itself is punished and additional punishments are added if it’s a hate crime.

Can you tell me if Pakistan has caught and convicted those who killed the Ahmadis and orchestrated the attacks? What about all the attacks on Shias or Christians earlier this year? What happened to their perpetrators? Now please find me a single case of a hate crime in Canada that was not successfully prosecuted in the last half century. For that matter, please feel free to look for a single minority getting killed in Canada because of his race or religion in the last few decades. Feel free to give us the victims names.

Next you bring up the case of Omar Khadr. You want to know why Canadians don’t feel sympathy for that family? After the Prime Minister personally intervened to get Khadr’s father out of a Pakistani prison, Khadr Sr. moved the entire family to Afghanistan. Even after this, the younger Khadr, Abdulkareem was evacuated from Pakistan at taxpayer expense (after becoming a paraplegic in a firefight with Pakistani troops), to receive further taxpayer funded healthcare in Canada.

After Omar Khadr’s arrest, his mother and sister went on national TV, denouncing the West, Canada’s values, suggesting that Canadians deserved to die on 9/11, that Canadian troops deserved to get killed in Afghanistan, that her husband was right to be a member or Al Qaeda and that it was acceptable for her son to be involved in combat resulting in the death of a US medic.

This is the family that Canadians are dealing with. What would your government have done if a family participated in terrorism that killed soldiers or a Pakistani ally, then went on national TV and denounced Pakistan, Islamic values, suggested it was okay for Pakistani troops to be killed and that any Pakistanis who were killed in terror attacks deserved it?

Yet, the government has done everything possible for this family. What other family has had the Prime Minister intervene to bail a terrorist out? What other family has received as much diplomatic support, social assistance, health care, etc. for a situation of their own making?

And after all this, they still expect the government to make exceptions to the rule. And that’s what Omar Khadr’s case is. The laws are clear in Canada. You do a crime outside Canada. You are subject to the laws of the country where you committed the crime. In the case of Omar, he’s alleged to have killed a US soldier and the government is saying they will intervene after he has completed the US legal process.

Now I have my reservations about Khadr’s treatment. Personally, I think he should be repatriated and the mother and older sister should be charged with treason, child abuse, child neglect and abandonment. That should be enough to earn both of them life sentences. The Children’s Aid Society has plenty of evidence after documenting how Abdulkareem was brainwashed into fighting for Al Qaeda.

But my views aside, what would you have the Government of Canada do? Set aside our laws and make exceptions for Canadians who go join terrorist groups abroad? If Omar Khadr deserves to be bailed out of his jam, what about some caught smuggling drugs in Singapore? And what if a Canadian citizen is caught killing Pakistani soldiers as part of the Pakistani Taliban? Would you think our government should intervene then too? Or is your double standard only reserved for Muslims who get caught allegedly killing Americans?

And by the way, I am curious why you are so enamoured with the Khadrs. You do realize that Khadr Sr. efforts probably resulted in a few Pakistanis getting killed right?

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

They do not allow Muslim women to wear Hijab and go to school, they do not allow freedom of expression, freedom of speech is denied to Muslims, intolerance and hate crimes towards Muslims are on the rise in these so called western societies. Muslims are being persecuted, you can be easily offloaded from boarding a plane, your name can pull from any no-fly list, you can be pulled out of an immigration queue, you can be denied entry, detained without a charge if Your Muslim name is spelled in a certain way. – posted by Umair

Utter BS.

You are allowed to wear the hijab, the burkha, your damn bedsheets if you please in Canada. The only province that has issues is Quebec. And that’s largely because they consider covering of the face to be incompatible with French Canadian culture. So you cannot go to a school or government office in Quebec with your face covered. You can still cover your hair. Just not the face. And this rule is no different than the rules in Turkey for example.

The rest is utter BS. You are just desperate now to show something wrong in Canada. There is no issue with freedom of speech. The only thing banned in Canada is hate speech. If you start spewing crap against another religion or race or whatever, then you will be arrested. And even then, the hate speech has to border on an incitement to violence.

Nor has there been any documented instances of increased violence or attacks on Muslims in Canada. It’d be news if there was, for sure.

Nor do Muslims get pulled out of the queue at immigration. That’s BS. And they do not deny entry just because you are Muslim. That’s utterly absurd. Muslim immigration has even gone up in the last few years. And the government is going out of its way to make student visas more accessible and promoting this policy in the Muslim world (so Muslim students who don’t find the US or Europe acceptable can choose Canada).

As for the no-fly list, you get on there if you are a threat. Muslim or otherwise. Get drunk too many times on a plane and you might find yourself on it. Has nothing to do with being Muslim at all.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

Umairpk: “Canada is rather a hellhole for immigrants, a nightmare where your dreams are shattered you end up doing menial jobs and your self respect is finished.”

That’s correct. People have too much rights in places like Canada, US etc. Women can wear whatever they want, they can go to college, and people can make fun out of religious leaders. How abhorent? No one does menial job in Pakistan. Everyone has food delivered at home, life is cozy and comfortable. In some parts Pakistan rape victims can be flogged for adultery. In some parts, music is banned. No international cricket and no foreign players want to come inside Pakistan and play.

If Pakistani doctors and lawyers are cleaning toilets in Canada, that probably tells something about their academic background and reliability or they are so scared of living in Pakistan that they are willing to try the broom stick in Canada. That part will not make sense to Mr. Umair who seems to be well settled in an upper class military family in Pakistan.

“Atleast in their home countries, immigrants can live as first class citizens.”

Contradictory sentence. An immigrant only lives in a foreign country. He cannot live in his home country and call himself an immigrant. If Pakistanis are so comfortable in their home country, I wonder why they are flooding the consulates of UK, US, Canada and other Western countries. May be they are not falling for propaganda like you are.

“I am a Pakistani, i Live in Pakistan and am a citizen of the world.”

Still you won’t get visa to Western countries with your world citizen passport.

“I stand up for peoples rights, justice and equality and am proud of it.”

People here refers to Sunni Muslims belonging to the elite families in Pakistan. The others can go to hell.

“Rather ending up as a lowlife immigrant in Canada, I prefer to live as a first class citizen in Pakistan.”

That’s correct. Shahzad shares the same views with you.
How come he did not get a red carpet welcome in your glorious country?

“true there is corruption here, there are lack of opportunities, but we will build a better country and hand it over to our future generation.”

You are not going to achieve any of that with your country on the brink with no money and an army armed to its teeth with dangerous weapons, militants gaining ground, people getting blown up everywhere.

You are beginning to sound like that Iraqi general who came on TV and kept proclaiming that Iraqi troops were winning, when American troops had blasted the Iraqi military into submission. It was great comedy and I like your words in the same sense. Thanks for providing some comic relief for us.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

1) What I find ridicuolous about Canada is their government structure too, what is the role of Governor General?

You’re not Canadian. You’re not expected to understand it.

The GG is the Queen’s representative in Canada, since Canada is a personal union (we are not a colony) with the British Crown. Pakistan had one at independence. Might want to read up on it. Our GG is just a ceremonial role though.

2) The conservative PM Stephen Harper has ruined Canada’s reputation by siding with war mongering neo-cons in America.

Don’t care. What matters to Canadians is how he does in Canada. I could care less what foreigners think. Sometimes we side with the Americans (Afghanistan), sometimes we don’t (Iraq). And sometimes we even get there before the Americans (WWII). We generally as a country do what we think is right, and scarcely give a damn what outsiders think. Be they Pakistani or American.

In this case, with our security directly threatened by AQ and the rest, you won’t find too many Canadians who have an issue with siding with the Yanks on this one.

3) Above that you have the Queen as head of state, what crap?.

And most of us quite like it that way. The Queen is part of our national identity as a distinct nation in the Americas. She reminds us of our heritage and helps differentiate us from our southern neighbours.

And by the way, She is Queen of Canada when she is here. She is crowned as Queen of Canada. Has a Canadian Royal Standard. A Canadian passport. And Canadian Guards of Honour when she (or other royals) are here. She’s Canadian to us.

4) And who doesnt know that doctors, surgeons, qualified engineers end up cleaning toilets and washing dishes in Canada. Canada is rather a hellhole for immigrants, a nightmare where your dreams are shattered you end up doing menial jobs and your self respect is finished.

Sure we have issues with immigrant qualifications. But it’s a huge exaggeration that doctors, surgeons and engineers drive taxis and clean toilets. If you can pass the exams, you can get a license to practice. The standard is the same as Canadian trained professionals. The only reason they are driving taxis and working at Pizza Pizza is usually because they can’t pass the exams. If they are struggling to qualify, that might well say something about the Pakistani education system.

Would you suggest we drop our standards and make exceptions for immigrants? You willing to enter a building built by somebody who got a license with a lower pass mark on his exams? How do you feel about getting treated by a surgeon who passed on a lower bar because he was an immigrant? Still think it’s a good idea?

5) Atleast in their home countries, immigrants can live as first class citizens.

Might want to ask the Ahmadis if they feel the same way….

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

All I did is to launch a reply to an allegation by Keith, that Pakistan is turning like Nazi Germany. -posted by Umair

Read up on Kristallnacht and pre-WWII Germany and you tell me if you don’t see parallels in the run-up to the Holocaust and what’s going on with minorities now in Pakistan.

You can try and divert attention all you want. While Canada most certainly does not have a perfect record (find me a country that does), our minority citizens aren’t being butchered simply for their race, skin colour or religion. And they most certainly aren’t being butchered at their places of worship.

And the most scary part about all that you’ve written? That’s exactly how Germans reacted to criticism by outsiders in the run-up to the Holocaust. They sought to deflect attention from their actions by pointing out problems with everybody else. Hitler sought to portray the Germans as victims and as routinely victimized in non-German lands (like you are doing with Muslims here). In fact, he used that line to invade Poland and Czechoslovakia and get Anschluss on in Austria.

Whether you choose to open your eyes or not, there’s way too many parallels.

And just remember. Those who choose not to learn from history are condemned to repeat it. If I was a minority in Pakistan, I’d be getting my passport ready, and booking my ticket and begging for any country possible to take me.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

Umair,

One question: If life is so bad for Muslims in the West, why aren’t the moving back?

What does it say about Pakistan, that Pakistanis would rather drives cabs in Toronto than live in Pakistan?

….Though if it were me, I’d make the same choice. Cab drivers are well paid in Canada.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

@Keithz,

Thanks for basically backing up what I said in early comments in response to Umair’s finger pointing.

I must admit, any country is a hellhole for those who are unqualified, underrepresented or a minority that is not equated as a full human being compared to the majority, ie. Pakistan.

Canada or the U.S. are both places where people can reach their dreams if they choose to. That is the bottom line.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

Umair,

Buddy, if you are concerned about the plight of Muslims in Canada, then come check it out for yourself. Get yourself a visa and a plane ticket.

I will buy you your first beer and personally drive you around.

One of my cousins is married to an Ismaili. I am sure he’d be happy to show you how prosperous Muslims are in Canada (his family is the most well-off out of anybody I am related to). You can ask his parents if they’d ever move back to Pakistan. See the answer you’ll get.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

You are all missing it..Umair is too clever..he doesn’t believe in what he writes..he just wanted to change the topic…and that’s exactly what is happening here..

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive
 

G-W:

“I assume that you believe tha Ahmadiyas are equal to Sunni’s as muslims? Please clarify. Have the courage to say the right thing. Do you agree with the Bhutto’s decree labelling the Ahmediya as non-muslims? A simple yes or no will do.”

Why don’t you Pakistanis let them call themselves what they want? Why don’t you let them call their places of worship what they want? Why do you have to do it for them?

Who cares if they are equal to Sunni Muslims or not? Should it matter?

You don’t see the parallels to Hitler’s Germany here? The Germans believed that Jews were not equal to them too. And since they weren’t equal, it was okay to kill them.

70 years later, some Sunni Muslims in Pakistan think the Ahmadis are not equal to them. They’ve passed laws declaring Ahmadis not to be equal (just like Hitler did for the Jews) and now some Sunni Muslims think it’s okay to kill Ahmadis because they are not equal.

70 years ago most German residents sided with Hitler. Or at least they didn’t stick up for their Jewish friends and neighbours. They let Hitler take power. And then let him erase the Jews (and other minorities). Today, Pakistanis are largely silent about minorities getting killed. Particularly if its Ahmadis getting killed. If a drone attack kills 1 Sunni tomorrow, there will still be more concern in Pakistan than if a terrorist kills 100 Ahmadis or Christians or Sikhs or Hindus or Shias.

Don’t like the parallels to Germany? Read your own history. Look at the steady depreciation of the rights of Bengalis prior to the Bengali Holocaust in East Pakistan. There’s a lot of parallels between the way West Pakistanis looked at Bengalis in the 1960s and the way Sunni Muslim Pakistanis look at minorities today.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

^ Just to make it clear, the lead quote in the above post was from Umair.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

You are all missing it..Umair is too clever..he doesn’t believe in what he writes..he just wanted to change the topic…and that’s exactly what is happening here..

Posted by Seekeroftruth
—–

Yeah. The guy’s probably a politician at home. Certainly, he’s slippery enough to be one. I hear the Hitler Youths had such apologists and propagandists too.

However, I for one won’t forget these folks. I sincerely worry about the state of minorities in Pakistan and about what will happen to them. It’s just way too horrific, the threats have to live with.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

Last point for Umair.

The ‘Baltimore Chronicle’ is not a real newspaper. It’s just some extreme left wing blog that’s out to hate on anybody and everybody. Quoting them is no better than quoting “Rupee News”.

You want to dish on Canada? How about you bring some real sources and stats. And if you are going to do that, make it fair, bring the equivalent stats for Pakistan. Let’s compare.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

KeithZ: “How about you bring some real sources and stats. And if you are going to do that, make it fair, bring the equivalent stats for Pakistan. Let’s compare.”

Are you kidding? Here are some true facts :-)

1. Canada is bloody cold, most of the year. Out here in paradise, temperatures go as high as 50C and life is too comfortable. On top of that there is no water (damn Indians), no electricity and one can feel nature in its fullness. That’s how things were a thousand years ago. That tradition has been kept alive in Pakistan.

2. Canadian life is so boring that your soldiers have to come all the way to Afghanistan to get some thrill ride. Back in Pakistan, everything a fighter looks for are already there. It so much part of Pakistani life that one cannot tell who is a fighter and who is an ordinary man.

3. Canada has four time zones. That makes those living on the West coast lazy. They wake up only when Easterners are already working and are three hours into it. In Jinnah’s country, there is only one time zone, but five prayers daily. Canadians do not get to pray five times and they suffer as a result.

4. Canada tries to hold on to all provinces at all costs. Quebec wanted to go it alone and they wouldn’t allow it. Pakistan let East Pakistan go out of goodwill for the Bengali brothers. How many countries can do that? And Indians are taking credit for that.

5. In Canada every part has laws and rules. That is not freedom really. In Pakistan there are tribal areas like Swat, FATA, NWFP and Balochistan where there are no laws and rules. How can anyone compare with that freedom? Pakistan is trying its best to give Kashmiris the same freedom, but the damn Indians are not allowing it.

6. Canadian media is boring. In Pakistan rumors and conspiracy theories fill the air and there is enough hot topics to talk about.

7. And Pakistan has the Islamic bomb. No matter how much Canadians can try, they can never have the Islamic bomb.

8. In Pakistan men can hide inside a Burqa and blow up those who disagree. In Canada one cannot even wear a burqa, especially if it is a man.

9. And Canada is home to Irshad Manji who really is not a Muslim. Pakistan is home to Muslims only.

10. Canada’s cricket team sucks. Pakistan’s cricket team is unique. It is the only one in the world with 11 captains leading the team at the same time.

Want anymore? Brother Umair will fill in soon.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive
 

^ The only one’s I’ll dispute:

1. You’ve never seen a Prairie summer. You can get temperatures well into the 30s and records in the 50s in the summer. That comes with a Prairie Winter where you can get temperatures which as -30 and as low as -50.

With the exception of the Prairies and the Arctic, the rest of the country is not that cold. Southern Ontario is actually on the same latitude as France. The climate is only a tad colder cause we are more in-land.

…that’s my Canadian plug for the day to remind everyone that we don’t all live in igloos with snow 12 months of the year.

3. Canada has 6 time zones: Newfoundland (kinda like Indians with the half hour), Atlantic, Eastern, Central, Mountain and Pacific.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

And I forgot….if we ever build one, it’ll be called the Maple bomb. But who needs nukes, when you have beavers:

http://news.discovery.com/animals/beaver -dam-canada-space.html

Mess with us, and we’ll stick our beavers on you!

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive
 

Top ten things that may kill immigrants in Canada

1)McDonalds
2)Old Age
3)Tripping on your own feet
4)Misreading the medicine cabinet
5)Not going to the doctor because he may not like Paks
6)Crappy Cricket team
7)Boredom from such little societal violence
8)Boredom from polite people
9)bordeom from having a cushy life
10)bordom from having good shopping

oh…

11)choking on a black jelly bean

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive
 

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