Pakistan’s Ahmadi killings and the conscience of a nation

June 7, 2010

graveyardThe fierce debate about the nature of Pakistani society triggered by the killing of more than 80 Ahmadis in two mosques in Lahore last month continues to run and run.

Much of the discussion is about why the government had failed to stop the religious right from preaching hatred against the Ahmadis, who are considered non-Muslims in Pakistan because they revere their 19th century founder Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, breaching – according to Pakistani law – a requirement that Muslims accept the finality of the Prophet Mohammad.

While authorities had been willing to shut down Facebook over a competition to draw the Prophet, it had not dared take action to remove banners preaching hatred against the Ahamdis, fearing a backlash from the religious right, Dawn newspaper complained in an editorial.

In a chronicle of deaths foretold, Professor C.M. Naim tracks the earlier killing of an Ahmadi, a retired teacher, in January in the town of Ferozewal. In an article in India’s Outlook magazine (h/t Chapati Mystery) he notes that not only did the police fail to take adequate action against the man’s killers, but also that the media paid very little attention, barring one persistent reporter. He also reproduces a picture of a huge billboard in Ferozewal preaching hatred against the Ahmadis.

“Judging from the image, the sign must have dominated the roundabout where it was set up to exhort the 97.21 percent of Ferozewala’s population against the unfortunate 0.25. It had stayed up for weeks. Thousands, including any number of men with power and authority, saw it but chose to do nothing. Finally a retired schoolteacher victimized by the sign and fearing worse approached the police for relief. A few days later, he ended up dead,” he writes.

He adds: “The following too went unnoticed:

  • On January 14, an Ahmadi mosque built in1982 near Rabwah was taken away from them by court orders and handed to anti-Ahmadis, “in order to pre-empt extreme law and order disturbances”.
  • On January 28, a court at Vehari, Punjab, sentenced three Ahmadis to imprisonment and fines on trumped up charges of preaching their religion to “simple Muslims”.
  • On February 3, an Ahmadi was similarly killed at Shehdadpur, Sindh.
  • On April 1, three Ahmadi traders were ambushed and killed near Faisalabad.

“Then, on May 28, 2010, in well-organized attacks on two Ahmadi mosques in Lahore, just a few miles away from Ferozewala, more than 90 Ahmadis were killed and scores wounded. We can only hope it was the worst such incident, for unfortunately it was not the last. On June 1, just three days later, the Daily Times reported another killing: an Ahmadi man was stabbed to death in his home and his son seriously wounded in Narowal, Punjab. The assailant, who reportedly threatened not to leave any Ahmadi alive, escaped.”

“Here’s a question,” writes Nadeem Paracha at Dawn. “How come whenever there’s a drone attack …  or a case of perceived obscenity or blasphemy surfaces, street corners are at once filled with burqa-clad women and bearded men chanting slogans like ‘Death to infidels’? But none of these fine, sensitive Muslims can be seen protesting when there’s an attack on innocent civilians —Ahmadis or others — by the extremists?”

Former Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif, whose brother Shahbaz Sharif is chief minister of Punjab province where the killings took place,  this weekend spoke in defence of the Ahmadis, calling them ”our brethren and an asset of the country”, according to The News. The Sharif brothers in the past have been accused of sympathising with the Islamists and were criticised after newspapers published pictures of the law minister in Punjab – who is loyal to the two – campaigning in a by-election in February with leaders of the outlawed sectarian Sipah e Sahaba.

The post-mortem on the Ahmadi mosque killings is now turning into a bigger discussion of whether secular liberals have any real influence on Pakistani society as it grows more religious and conservative.

“The problem is that there aren’t nearly enough of us for this to matter,” complains the blog Five Rupees. “There are a few scattered in the blogosphere and Twitterverse, and a couple of columnists for Dawn, and the Daily Times editorial board, but that’s it. There are, functionally speaking, no liberals in Pakistan. Oh, there’s plenty of scotch-drinking social liberals (think Salman Taseer). But liberalism and progressivism is not about drinking scotch or wearing jeans. Liberalism is about equality and freedom and personal choice and rationality and the privileging of the individual, and no one believes in those things.”

“We’ve been talking about the dangers of militancy for a long, long time — well before 9/11. That no one bothers listening is not an indictment of the “failed politics of Pakistani liberals”. It’s an indictment of everyone else.  If mainstream Pakistan wants to ignore us, fine, that’s their prerogative. But don’t blame us when shit goes bad.”

And in Britain’s Guardian newspaper,  Mustafa Qadri notes that more and more Pakistanis are turning to prayer given the failure of the state to provide a credible, secular alternative.

“Uncertainty is an inherent part of the human experience, but in Pakistan much of what a reader in Britain might take for granted is far from certain. How long will the electricity last today? Where will the next bomb go off? And, for most who do not inhabit my privileged world, will I be able to afford the right medication if I fall ill? The profound loss of control felt by long-term illness sufferers and their loved ones has become a countrywide phenomenon in Pakistan.

“The situation has exacerbated our cultural tendency to avow causation in favour of fate and the rewards of prayer. Whether looking for a job, waiting anxiously for exam results or willing the national cricket team to victory, prayer has become a kneejerk source of solace and comfort in difficult times. Holy men, or pirs, and local soothsayers have for generations made a career out of selling their prayers to those in need.

“And why not? Doing the right thing, like expecting to get a plum job without working family contacts, rarely seems to lead to results in our country. During my travels I have met several academically bright students from middle-class backgrounds who complain they cannot get into top university courses because wealthier classmates have paid to gain entrance. The experience for the millions below the middle class, who could never dream of a university education, is even more dire.”

At the very least, the killings of the Ahmadis has prompted a real discussion about the direction Pakistan is headed in. And even, some poetry. One day, looking back, it may well be seen as a turning point.

153 comments

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[...] Pakistan’s Ahmadi killings and the conscience of a nation (Reuters Blog) [...]

Prominent newspapers in Pakistan have published fatwas issued by Mullahs that Ahmadis are blasphemers without any remorse over the tragedy of last week. This will get more Ahmadis killed but the media does not seem to care what to print.

Posted by Usman01 | Report as abusive

“whether secular liberals have any real influence on Pakistani society”
—-

Westerners should shed the myth that “secular” paks are innocent lambs..pakistani generals who are “secular” with “modern outlook” are the ones who volunteered eagerly for anti-Soviet jihad and deliberately allowed growth of virulent wahabi islam. Ahmadiyas were declared non-muslims by the “secular” ZA Bhutto…

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive

There’s some eerily striking parallels between the run-up to the Holocaust in Hitler’s Germany and slow and steady dehumanization of minorities (particularly the Ahmadis) in Pakistan.

Just look at how the Third Reich got going by stripping Jews of their rights and citizenship. And now look at Pakistan’s efforts at chipping away at the rights of Ahmadis, first by declaring them to be non-Muslims.

Let’s hope we don’t see another holocaust in Pakistan. The Bengali holocaust was enough for South Asia. Hopefully, Pakistan stops drifting towards another.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

The current Chief Minister of Punjab in Pakistan sounds a lot like like the Chief Minister of Gujarat from a few years ago.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

@KEiThZ

With such a compartmentalized psyche, is it any wonder how someone can preach hate and death and in the same breath claim that they are good muslims? In the persuit of religiously political perfection, I think a lot of paks are blind to the way that they devalue non-muslims and different types of muslims. So much prayer, yet so much death. Sometimes it feel this is religion gone wrong.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

Keith
Let me make it clear that I am a mainstream Sunni and I have had Ahmedi class fellow in school, I drive to work every day passing Ahmedi places of worship and even at my workplace their are many Ahmedis. The way you are trying to potray Ahmedi’s being persecuted in Pakistan is absolutely far from reality. Drawing any comparisons with the Nazis and the holocaust is just an insult.

Even in Canada Muslims are persecuted, you cant wear an hijab and attend a school or university in Canada. So much hypocricy, you are a citizen of a country that discriminates against other faiths and are intolerant against Muslims. Yet you accuse Pakistan of genocide.

The only genocide i see happening is that of Canadian Forces in Afghanistan if they dont get their butts moving out of Afghanistan real quick.

As with the Ahmedis, they are our fellow Pakistan. The Punjab provivincial government is stepping up their security and Pakistan Army is already tightening the noose against millitants in Southern Punjab. We will turn the situation around and once again you Pakistan haters will be proved wrong.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

STATISTICAL ESTIMATE

Islamic Republic of Pakistan
Democracy
97% Muslim population
Mainstream Sunni
Facing terrorist attacks, Military Forces operating against terrorist groups.
Attacks on Sunni Mosques= more than 100′s
Sunni Victims= numbered in 1000′s
Shia’s could be second largest victims
Attacks on Ahmedis= sporadic in their tens
Ahmedi victims= A few hundered precious human lives lost just like other victims.

Point to make, Ahmedia minority came under attack just like other Pakistanis who have been victims of terrorist strikes.
Pakistan is largely a muslim nation, a democracy though not perfect but with an independent judiciary and a vibrant media. It’s military and law enforcement agencies have responded in full support of citizens whenever their has been a terrorist attack. Now where is the state sanctioning the persecution of any minority? There are no pits dug to dispose bodies, no poison or gas chambers no media blackout, no mass removal of people from their homes, no concentration camps. Not even a sign that something of this nature to take place in Pakistan even in a hundered years to some. Every media outlet is free to go anywhere in Pakistan and see whats happeining and report. Its not a close society here.

But serial Pakistan haters, intolerant, ignorant, full of hypocricy claiming to be westernized, modern, peace loving, torch bearing champions of Human rights, guardians of the unversal declaration of human rights could have such biased views is completely unacceptable.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

PAKISTAN VS CANADA

The reality of CANADA by Baltimore Chronicle

“By persecuting the innocent, Canada like America, defiles its principles, laws, and fundamental human rights and values – a clear sign of emerging fascism under which all rights are lost.”
http://baltimorechronicle.com/2010/06011 0Lendman.shtml

CANADA’S WAR ON ISLAM
by Stephen Lendman 01 June 2010 (BALTIMORE CHRONICLE)
“Like in America post-9/11, Canadian Muslims have been victimized, vilified, and persecuted for their faith, ethnicity, prominence, and activism. They’ve been targeted, hunted down, rounded up, held in detention, kept in isolation, denied bail, restricted in their right to counsel, tried on secret evidence, convicted or incriminated on bogus charges, given long sentences and incarcerated as political prisoners or deported to certain torture, imprisonment or death by so-called democratic countries that, in fact, mock the rule of law and judicial fairness.”

SHAME ON CANADA.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

THE TRUE FACE OF FASCIST CANADA

Victims are pawns in the war on terror – how rogue states intimidate populations to accept foreign wars and homeland repression to mask their more sinister agenda. Today, it reflects unbridled militarism, permanent wars, imperial conquest, and planned economic crises causing lost jobs, homes, benefits, futures, and the greatest ever wealth transfer to the rich, largely below the radar.

In her 2005 paper, “Securing Canada: Muslims and the Myth of Multiculturalism in the post-911 World,” Samantha Arnold discussed the environment as defined by Canada’s Anti-Terrorism Act and the Canadian-US Smart Border Declaration, saying:

“….Arab and Muslim Canadians have been ‘painted with the bin Laden brush,’ cast as terrorists, interrogated and detained on the basis of secret evidence, subjected to hate crimes, denied passage across international borders, represented in racist and demeaning ways in the media, and constructed as ‘aliens’ in Canada notwithstanding their citizenship (or legal residency) status.”

It flies in the face of the country’s image as a tolerant, compassionate society, embracing diversity and multiculturalism – the very “foundational myth of this country, a mythical heritage of tolerance that turns on the historical reconciliation of French, English, and Aboriginal peoples.” In fact, the reality unmasks the mythology, Mohamed Harkat one of many prime examples, an innocent man victimized for political advantage, so far denied due process and judicial fairness.
———————————————————

What do you say Keith? which one is better? A Nazi Pakistan or a fascist Canada?

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

@UmairPk,

You label canada as being facist or racist? Go and get your head checked buddy. Last I checked, minorities are not getting slaughtered or genocided in Canada. In fact, I as a Hindu have many muslim friends that have emigrated from places like Africa, Pakistan, India, UK, Dubai, Jordan and all if them chose to come to Canada.

All of my muslim friends are naturalized citizens of Canada and proud canadians and say that they would never go back to their country of origin. I think you are reading an extreme leftist paper by someone who is an extreme apologist at heart, heck I think Ms. Arnold even apologies for squishing bugs every morning as she goes to work. So don’t believe just one source of info.

If you recall the Toronto 18. They were muslim youths, and I believe even one of them was quoted as wanting to go so far as even beheading the PM of Canada. All of the local mosques did not do enough to watch over their Pakistani’ breatheren. The Gov’t has a duty to watch terrorism and arrest and make examples of those that chose to hurt democractic, law abiding peoples.

If muslims hate Canada, UK, USA so much, why would they rather come here to drive cab, than live in Lahore, Rawalpindi or Islamabad and do their own profession?

Canada is about as tolerant and soft as a society gets., Umair, you should hang out with westerners here, if you ever get a chance and take of your “I am a Pakistani muslim hat”. If you can’t make it here.. you can’t make it anywhere, you best just go back.

With regards to terrorism, any country has every right to limit or bar peoples from where terrorism originates, that is our right to ask of our government, that is not racism, that is our right to feel protected. BTW, muslims from all non-Pak countries are doing just fine here, they are thriving, buying houses, having kids, doing their jobs, and enjoying canada day celebrations, and many of them come in Islamic clothes and there is nothing wrong with that, it is unique.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

Umair, I assume that you believe tha Ahmadiyas are equal to Sunni’s as muslims? Please clarify. Have the courage to say the right thing. Do you agree with the Bhutto’s decree labelling the Ahmediya as non-muslims? A simple yes or no will do.

Canada is the easiest place in the world to get welfare, that is why a lot of immigrants come here. There is unemployment insurance and free health care, sounds like extremely harsh and unfair facist treatment to me.

Let’s not forget famous rape victim Muktara Mai the heroine of Pakistan. Her mysogenistic treatment exposed every type of ugliness of Pakistan. I don’t believe Kaffirs and women in general are legally equal to muslim men in Pakistan, legally or constitutionally. Is that not facist or racist? What is fair about that? Pakistan is a muslim country for muslims…racist from its inception until today.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

G-W
Canada has gone to the point of disowning its own citizens in the case of Kahdr family. Many other examples are evident of the intolerance and hate of the western society towards Muslims. Now you are acting liberal, and enlightened and someone who is openly forthcoming towards the Muslims that is not the case. In the west now when you dress up in Muslim clothing you are labelled as a terrorist. you can’t even have a Muslim name.
Why the heck you guys are so worried about Ahmedis in Pakistan? Ahmedis are thriving in countries like Canada whereas as manistream Sunni muslims get labelled as terrorists in those countries. Something is fundamentaly wrong here, all I am doing is exposing the racism, intolerance, injustice and bias that exists in Canada against the Muslims. What I find ridicuolous about Canada is their government structure too, what is the role of Governor General? The conservative PM Stephen Harper has ruined Canada’s reputation by siding with war mongering neo-cons in America. Above that you have the Queen as head of state, what crap?. And who doesnt know that doctors, surgeons, qualified engineers end up cleaning toilets and washing dishes in Canada. Canada is rather a hellhole for immigrants, a nightmare where your dreams are shattered you end up doing menial jobs and your self respect is finished. Atleast in their home countries, immigrants can live as first class citizens. I am a Pakistani, i Live in Pakistan and am a citizen of the world. I stand up for peoples rights, justice and equality and am proud of it. Rather ending up as a lowlife immigrant in Canada, I prefer to live as a first class citizen in Pakistan. true there is corruption here, there are lack of opportunities, but we will build a better country and hand it over to our future generation.

And let me also tell you I have lived and worked abroad and had many Indian friends, both hindus and Msulims.

All I did is to launch a reply to an allegation by Keith, that Pakistan is turning like Nazi Germany. Can anyone answer me now, Why is Canada or US or France or Switzerland so called liberal, tolerant, peace-loving, progressive societies be biased, racist, intolerant towards Muslims? They do not allow Muslim women to wear Hijab and go to school, they do not allow freedom of expression, freedom of speech is denied to Muslims, intolerance and hate crimes towards Muslims are on the rise in these so called western societies. Muslims are being persecuted, you can be easily offloaded from boarding a plane, your name can pull from any no-fly list, you can be pulled out of an immigration queue, you can be denied entry, detained without a charge if Your Muslim name is spelled in a certain way.

You cannot accuse Pakistan of anything until you can prove your own society is free of evil. No society is evil, no religion is evil, no country is evil. Its the people among those society who do not stand up to evil and eradicate it are to be blamed. People like me, if we do not stand up against the violence perpetrated on Ahmedis in Pakistan, we are to be blamed. People like you in west who do not speak up against the intolerance against Muslims are to be blamed.

And you don’t want me to pull up the statistics of Muslim vs Non-Muslim countries in terms of rape, murder, violent crime, armed robberies, car jackings, etc. many so called western cities will turn out to be rape and murder capitals of the world.

Stop potraying Canada as a Utopian wonderland, their reality is now exposed. France is afraid of Muslims wearing Hijab, Switzerland bans construction of minerates of Mosques, Canada bans muslim girls from going to school if they wear hijab. Among all this hatred, you are also frightened of Islam. What a pity.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

G-W:

“I assume that you believe tha Ahmadiyas are equal to Sunni’s as muslims? Please clarify. Have the courage to say the right thing. Do you agree with the Bhutto’s decree labelling the Ahmediya as non-muslims? A simple yes or no will do.”

-My Answer is, Islam has five pillars:
1.Kalima
2.Namaz (Prayer 5 times a day)
3.Zakat (alms/charity to poor)
4.Fasting (Fast in the month of Ramadan)
5.Haj(Pilgrimage to Makkah once in a lifetime)

Lets see what first pillar Kalima is:

?? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ????
“L? elaha ella Allah, Muhammad ur-Rasul Allah”
Trabslation: “No one is Lord but Allah, and Muhammad (S.A.W) is the messanger of Allah”

It means a Muslim testify that only Allah is worthy of worship, and Muhammad(S.A.W) is true Messenger of Allah. Muhammad(S.A.W) is the final Prophet now till the day of judgement there will be no more Prophet. This is what my belief is as a Sunni Muslim.

I think what Ahmedis say is that their founder of Ahmediya movement proclaimed to have divine power and their belief in the finality of Prophethood is questionable. I read somewhere someone was arguing that Ahmedis comply with all but one pillar of Islam. In my words, they are as closest as you can get to a Muslim. But I do not want to go into more detail, i cannot term them as i like. I have been to Mecca and Medina for Umra Pilgrimage and their in the grand Mosques you have phone booths connecting you directly to the offices of religious scholars on the top floor of the Mosques. You can present them with any question, and they have the knowledge and authority to decree, they clarify and give their ‘fatwa’ or ruling. For the question of Ahmedis being Muslim or otherwise, or they being equal to Sunnis is obsolete and irrelevant for me. Lets leave that to the expert scholars and Ulema. They will decide. My argument is, Ahmedis are still Pakistanis and (should) have full rights as other Pakistani citizens.
Now to Zulfiqar Bhutto terming them as Non-Muslims or Pakistani parliament passing any resolution. first that was a long time even when I was born. Secondly what do you expect if you say or do something in a Majority Muslim country with 97% population follow same belief, you come up with something different from the mainstream. Others might think you are deviated. Pakistan’s supreme court and parliament are here to repeal any laws and lawmakers can pass new bills in the parliament. If the Ahmedis can defend their beliefs, the supreme court can overturn the law and repeal it. As I said Pakistan is a democracy.

Lastly, to Myra;

In your article you stated:
“Ahmadis, who are considered non-Muslims in Pakistan because they revere their 19th century founder Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, breaching – according to Pakistani law – a requirement that Muslims accept the finality of the Prophet Mohammad.”

I think its not just the Pakistani law but Islam itself the islamic law states that a Muslim should accept the finality of Prophet Muhammad(S.A.W)Its the same in every Muslim country.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Anti-Muslim Dutch lawmaker tests freedom of speech

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0  ,8599,1958902,00.html

Geert Wilders Dutch MP incites hatred and discrimination against Muslims in Holland. Because of his extreme anti-Muslim views, Wilders is often compared to the leaders of Europe’s other far-right parties, such as Nick Griffin of the British National Party and Jean-Marie Le Pen of France’s National Front.

Testing the Limits of free speech in Holland.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Viel wars Reveal Europe’s intolerance.

Politicians seeking to stop a small minority of Muslim women from wearing the veil in Public are actually trying to send a harsh message to an ambattled community.

Defying the prejudices and stereotypes that cling to their religion, the ranks of successful Muslim professionals are swelling across Europe, their complex struggle to get ahead is underway.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

EXPOSING ISLAMOPHOBIC EUROPE

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0  ,8599,1948078,00.html

Study: European Muslims Feel Shut Out

-About 20 million Muslims live in the European Union, mostly in capital cities and large industrial towns; they already make up 25% of the population in Marseilles, France, and Rotterdam in the Netherlands; 20% in Malmö, Sweden; 15% in Brussels and Birmingham, England; and 10% in London, Paris and Copenhagen. The report, published on Dec. 15, surveyed Muslims in 11 cities across the E.U. and found that 55% of respondents believed religious discrimination had risen in the past five years. ———————————————————-

Probably it is a good idea to discuss the plight of Ahmedis in Pakistan as well as the general plight of mainstream Muslims in Europe and West as a whole together. Lets not label anyone as Nazi or antisemitic etc.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Umair,

It does not make any sense, equating isolated incidents of racial profiling and/or religious discrimination in Canada, Europe, west etc. to the butchering of 100+ Ahmadiayas while they prayed at their place of worship in Pakistan.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Mortal
It doesn’t make any sense either, equating a once off incident of terrorist attack on Ahmedis in Pakistan to the holocaust of Jews at the hands of Nazis.
Pakistan is at the forefront of a war against terrorists and there have been many attacks on even mainstream Sunni muslims in Pakistan. However the government is putting in every effort to protect minorities.

You still didn’t answer my question? Why is Canada or US or France or Switzerland so called liberal, tolerant, peace-loving, progressive societies be biased, racist, intolerant towards Muslims? They do not allow Muslim women to wear Hijab and go to school, they do not allow freedom of expression, freedom of speech is denied to Muslims, intolerance and hate crimes towards Muslims are on the rise in these so called western societies.

It is easier to criticise others and point fingers unless self introspection is done.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Pregnant Egyptian muslim woman stabbed 18 times and died outside German courtroom. Such brutality against Muslims in Europe:

“Marwa al-Sherbini, 31, was giving evidence in July against a man charged with defamation for having called her a ‘terrorist’ and ‘Islamist’ when he attacked her with a kitchen knife he had sneaked into court. ”

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article- 1223018/Man-accused-stabbing-pregnant-Mu slim-woman-death-inside-German-court-goe s-trial-tight-security.html

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

It is becoming evident that treatment of Muslims in Europe and west is not just confined to isolated incidents of racial profiling and/or religious discrimination. You can easily get killed in Europe and America if you are a Muslim facing hate crime and seeking justice= Persecution of Muslims in west.

Why is Canada or US or France or Switzerland so called liberal, tolerant, peace-loving, progressive societies be biased, racist, intolerant towards Muslims? They do not allow Muslim women to wear Hijab and go to school, they do not allow freedom of expression, freedom of speech is denied to Muslims, intolerance and hate crimes towards Muslims are on the rise in these so called western societies.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Whether Pakistanis have any conscience? On a recent trip to Dubai, I had met some very very educated and professional Pakistanis , and majority of them are of the opinion that 26/11, Mumbai Attack is a conspiracy hatched by militant hindu groups like Shiv Sena or Bajrang Dal . The most important point here is Pakistani society is devoid of any conscience, it is a brutal society ,full of religious fanatics, and hatred.

Posted by manishindia | Report as abusive

Manishindia
You still didnt answer my question, Why is Canada or US or France or Switzerland so called liberal, tolerant, peace-loving, progressive societies be biased, racist, intolerant towards Muslims? They do not allow Muslim women to wear Hijab and go to school, they do not allow freedom of expression, freedom of speech is denied to Muslims, intolerance and hate crimes towards Muslims are on the rise in these so called western societies.

Two wrongs do not make a right, I accepted we in Pakistan need to work to correct many things. Can you answer my question above too?

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Umair, sometimes if feels as if you are psychologically deranged, but come unhinged very easily at the mention of certain things.

First of all I respect your belief as a Sunni, I am not debating your religion here. But I am debating your application of religion and the political manner of it. While Pakistan has done a great job defining what constitutes a muslim, there needs to be a greater job of defining what constitutes a human being and that is required, if minorities are to be able to engage their rights in fair manner. Currently, democracy will not work for minorities in Pakistan, especially because Kaffirs are considered 1/4 human witness against a muslim suspect.

I need to understand one thing here. If Pakistan is for muslims, why cannot other countries be for themselves too?

With regards to the hijab, most women find it degrading and choose not to wear it. Also, people in western societies like to be able to see someone’s face when they talk to them. Heck, why don’t we just let the KKK wear their white hats? Western societies allow Sikhs to wear turbans, even police in Canada wear turbans. The key difference here is covering up of the face, to westerners it is derogatory towards women to force them to be covered up and most women in western society find it degrading. It is not racism, it is humanism. We actually like and respect the right of women to express their beauty, because men in the west, for the most part do not go crazy looking at a woman’s face, because we are conditioned to see each other’s face, when we talk to each other. BTW, the University that I went to, the Islamic women all had Hijab’s and wore them openly, so I don’t know where your Hijab ban rule comes from.

Muslims have build mosques everywhere from Europe to North America, and a lot of them. Can the west also build Christian and Buddhist temples in Saudi Arabia, or Pakistan?…not really Heck, is India allowed to build Mandirs in Saudi, or Pakistan?…just something to think about…

With regards to Pakistan professionals getting jobs in NA. In NA, most professions are self regulated and their duty is to uphold high standards and do their job to protect the public from shoddy work practices. This applies to Engineering, law, medicine and other fields. So basically Umair, if you can pass the board exams, your school of origin, its’s curriculum was upto CDN standards, you had good marks AND you can communicate well and write well in English, you can work here, no problem, because then foreign trained people are at the same level as CDN professionals. The problem is, is that some foreigners, esp. from Pakistan, either they have poor communication, did not meet pre-requisites, did not have a curriculum that is upto CDN standards or they could not pass the written exams because they have poor English. There also very bright Pakistani’ professionals who pass with flying colors and have no problem and integrate extremely well. Unfortunately, the ones that don’t cut it, they start blaming their problems on racism, and other such things, when in fact, they could not make the cut and meet the required standards, so they get bitter and do some menial jobs and some don’t care to go back to Pakistan, but would rather slug it out and stay. I am proud to have worked with many Canadian muslims who are truly world class professionals and they deserve every bit of success that they have. These guys were too smart to want to stay in their own country, they came to Canada for a better life and found it and don’t want to ever go back. Please explain this phenomenon..are you going to call them non-muslims now?

You have to understand Umair, integration is the reason why democracies function well, there is give and take. I really shake my head when immigrants come to another country and keep with their own kind for solace, rather than reach out, have fun, learn, be happy, some people withdraw to the solace of their country men and complain about how bad things are. It seems some immigrants and people like you need to be reminded that things are actually quite good for muslims in western countries. I cannot say the same for the tortured Mr. Sampson or the Canadian who was to be beheaded in Saudi.

Immigration is a good thing and needed. But that does not mean that the liberalism should be hijacked against the host country to allow almost any thing to go either.

You should come to Canada, you can go anywhere and you will see muslims carrying out about their business, they are successful and contributing canadians and proud of their achievements and think little of people like you who choose to belittle their hard work.

Minorities are not getting physically butchered en mass, like they are in Pakistan. If things are so bad in the west, why leave your own country come to such a horrible, evil racist place? Your arguments make no sense at all.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

Umair, BTW, one of my relatives was treated for Heart disease by a Pakistan Trained Cardiologist. There was also a Saudi doctor treating my relative. Both are well qualified Canadians, who have met requirements. Please let that concept of high standards sink into your head. There are a lot of foreigners who have had substandard training, can’t communicate well, trained on outdated equipment, these people will not be good representatives of their professions and are in fact somewhat dangerous to the public and need to upgrade before they practice, especially with regards to medicine and engineering.

Some come to Canada without even checking transferability of their prerequisites from their Pak University and they come here and can’t get certified, but don’t want to upgrade either. They get frustrated with the requirements and give up and drive cab. That is not racism, that is an individual not willing to do what it takes to reach board certification requirements.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

One more thing, if Canada just allows all immigrants to come and work here, without being properly certified, that makes it extremely unfair to Canadian students, who actually paid to goto school, met the requirements and have to compete for jobs with people who have not certified. On top of that, those CDN students, their parents paid taxes their whole lives here to support the country. Tell me what you think is fair. Please be sure not to play anymore victim hood, it is making you look foolish and killing all of your arguements.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

@”However the government is putting in every effort to protect minorities” Posted by Umairpk

And how exactly is your govenrment doing that? The last time I checked, it has taken absolutely no action whatsoever against the individuals/groups responsible for killing and/or inciting violence against the Ahmadiyyas & other minorities (Shias, Sikhs, Chistians, Hindus etc).

@ “You still didn’t answer my question? Why is Canada or US or France or Switzerland so called liberal, tolerant, peace-loving, progressive societies be biased, racist, intolerant towards Muslims?”

Aren’t you exaggerating things here? I live in the US & frequently travel to the other countries you list above. Yes I agree that since 9/11, racial & religious profiling has increased to an extent and there might be isolated incidents of discrimination againts muslims but in all these countries, bereeved muslims (or others for that matter) who have been discrimated against, have recourse. For instance, here in the US, they can file complaints at the concerned civil liberties organization & believe me, action is taken against culprits.
A year ago, an Iranian american friend of mine was denied ownership in a condo association for “unspecified reasons”. He filed a complaint with the relevant authorities & within a month, not only did he get the ownership title with a letter of apology from the condo association, the association also had to pay a hefty fine.

@”They do not allow Muslim women to wear Hijab and go to school, they do not allow freedom of expression, freedom of speech is denied to Muslims”

I have actually seen more Hijab wearing girls going to school, here in the US than I’ve seen in India. The only country which has wrongfully banned head gear in the west is France and it’s not just for muslims. Sikhs can’t wear turbans & Jews can’t wear yammakas either. The US has strongly condemned france’s policy. As for freedom of speech, no freedom of speech is denied to any muslim here in the US. They can complain, protest, hold rallies & do what ever they want withing legal limitations. They have the same rights which others do, no more & no less.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

G-W
I am not being negative, I had mentioned Canada because of Keith’s allegation that Pakistan is turning out like Nazi Germany. I know the nature of Canada’s immigration program. Its not that only people from developing nations have problem settling into Canada. Even doctors from very good outside countries are lured to Canada and the Canadian CIC lures them only to waste their potential.

Canada is only got for retiring with an insurance of good healthcare later in retirement years. Even in Gulf nations people would qualify for Canada immigration and go there, after landing pick up their PR Card and return to their high paid jobs in Gulf. However that is a different discussion altogether. I agree Canada is a welcoming country, all I was making a point that yes there are problems faced by Ahmedi minority in Pakistan. But similar problems are faced by minorities in Europe, Canada and US West etc.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Mortal, Rajeev,

I think Umair is determined to maintain a victimhood mindset for all muslims, worldwide.

At some point you have to quit blaming everybody else, ie another country, race, religion for all of your problems and take responsibility for your life and ask yourself, what did you do today to improve your life and those around you.

Some people are unimpressible, it is just a collective human or cultural thing, I don’t know. You can keep giving and giving and giving, they will always find fault, like a bottomless pit, you cannot keep them happy or ever fill them. They will take and take and take and they will always find something to whine, complain and cry about. Umair at times displays such a mentality.

Quite frankly, people are getting fed up and tired of this.

Gratefulness is, from what I understand is one of the tenets of Islam:

http://ipaki.com/content/html/27/428.htm l

Some people need to ask if they are grateful enough and if they aren’t, perhaps they should seek this within themselves before they ask the world to fix itself.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

The Ahmadiyya Muslim Community is a peace loving law abiding community whose motto is love for all hatred for none. They promote education, tolerance, and citizenship. They also have a presence in 187 countries of the world and endeavour to exert a constructive influence through social projects, educational institutes and health services. The Ahmadiyya Muslim Community numbers between 3 and 4 million people in Pakistan.

Human Rights Commission of Pakistan (HRCP) had warned the Punjab government about threats to the Ahmedi community centre in Model Town “for more than a year.”

Ahmadi Muslims endure “the most severe legal restrictions and officially-sanctioned discrimination” among Pakistan’s religious minorities, according to the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom.

USCIRF, an independent, bipartisan U.S. government commission, said in its latest annual report that “Ahmadis may not call their places of worship ‘mosques,’ worship in non-Ahmadi mosques or public prayer rooms which are otherwise open to all Muslims, perform the Muslim call to prayer, use the traditional Islamic greeting in public, publicly quote from the Koran, or display the basic affirmation of the Muslim faith.” The agency says it’s illegal for the group to preach publicly, pursue converts, pass out religious material, restricted from holding public conferences and travelling to Saudi Arabia for the hajj pilgrimage

The state-sanctioned discrimination began when Under pressure from hard-liners, the Pakistani government in 1974 declared the Ahmadis a non-Muslim minority. The Government and police authorities have taken no action to prevent the media from promoting the killing of Ahmadi’s by claiming they are worthy of death. This has sent a message to the culprits that they can do as they wish without fear of prosecution.

The government of Pakistan should restore the basic rights of the Ahmadiyya Muslim Community including the right to vote and to give full protection to law-abiding members living in its jurisdiction.

Posted by Fazilat | Report as abusive

” I know the nature of Canada’s immigration program. Its not that only people from developing nations have problem settling into Canada. Even doctors from very good outside countries are lured to Canada and the Canadian CIC lures them only to waste their potential.”

–>Keithz, was drawing some parallels with Nazi Germany, which may not be entirely correct, but may not be entirely off base either. The Ahmadiya massacre is a very racist and hateful killing, the media, along with your gov’t all have some guilt to share. Much the same in Germany the beer halls were filled with unemployed men who needed to blame their problems on a minority that was financially successful..the jews.

Being able to settle into any new country is a huge task even for the most able and qualified person. Canada does not just merely “lure” people to come here. Canada is looking for qualified high quality professionals who can contribute to the country in every way and in return they will be rewarded by having a good job and a good life.

Again you blame the Gov’t for wasting the potential of somebody. That is victim hood and complete hogwash. You can’t be willfully ignorant of the rules and blame the administrative process for failing you, just because you did not do your homework or did not qualify…quit creating more victims here, it is just a case of poor qualification.

You see, my father trained me from when I was a child to never blame anybody for my troubles, otherwise, he will discipline me. I am glad he did. I had the right attitude from day one and I can’t say the same for some friends that I grew up with. They chose to have a chip on their shoulder and found uncrossable obstacles where ever they looked and always found the time and energy to imaginatively create a new scape goat to their problems.

This self defeating mindset has to change, it kills imagination and potential.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

Thank you for the fact based posting Fazilat. It was enlightening.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

@I think Umair is determined to maintain a victimhood mindset for all muslims, worldwide.”
-GW

—If he looks at all religions, not just Muslims, it will be better.
_______________________

Do you guys think that Ahmedias/Islam in can be compared to Ravidassias/Sikhs. Sikhs do not believe in live Gurus—Guru Granth Sahib–the holy book- is the last Guru. But Ravidassia sect believes in live Gurus. There was trouble over this in Punjab India.

HOWEVER, govt has nothing to do with it. People can claim Ravidassia act as blasphemy but govt does not approve that. This is the big difference between Ahmedias and Ravidassia.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive

Umair,

It’s laughable that you are going to compare Canada and Pakistan’s human rights record. We haven’t slaughtered millions of our own citizens as recently as 40 years ago. Nor do we have hate crimes like this one against the Ahmadis taking place on a routine basis.

Forget somebody getting killed. A mere attack on a minority, graffiti on a mosque or synagogue is considered a huge deal. It’s investigated right away. The crime itself is punished and additional punishments are added if it’s a hate crime.

Can you tell me if Pakistan has caught and convicted those who killed the Ahmadis and orchestrated the attacks? What about all the attacks on Shias or Christians earlier this year? What happened to their perpetrators? Now please find me a single case of a hate crime in Canada that was not successfully prosecuted in the last half century. For that matter, please feel free to look for a single minority getting killed in Canada because of his race or religion in the last few decades. Feel free to give us the victims names.

Next you bring up the case of Omar Khadr. You want to know why Canadians don’t feel sympathy for that family? After the Prime Minister personally intervened to get Khadr’s father out of a Pakistani prison, Khadr Sr. moved the entire family to Afghanistan. Even after this, the younger Khadr, Abdulkareem was evacuated from Pakistan at taxpayer expense (after becoming a paraplegic in a firefight with Pakistani troops), to receive further taxpayer funded healthcare in Canada.

After Omar Khadr’s arrest, his mother and sister went on national TV, denouncing the West, Canada’s values, suggesting that Canadians deserved to die on 9/11, that Canadian troops deserved to get killed in Afghanistan, that her husband was right to be a member or Al Qaeda and that it was acceptable for her son to be involved in combat resulting in the death of a US medic.

This is the family that Canadians are dealing with. What would your government have done if a family participated in terrorism that killed soldiers or a Pakistani ally, then went on national TV and denounced Pakistan, Islamic values, suggested it was okay for Pakistani troops to be killed and that any Pakistanis who were killed in terror attacks deserved it?

Yet, the government has done everything possible for this family. What other family has had the Prime Minister intervene to bail a terrorist out? What other family has received as much diplomatic support, social assistance, health care, etc. for a situation of their own making?

And after all this, they still expect the government to make exceptions to the rule. And that’s what Omar Khadr’s case is. The laws are clear in Canada. You do a crime outside Canada. You are subject to the laws of the country where you committed the crime. In the case of Omar, he’s alleged to have killed a US soldier and the government is saying they will intervene after he has completed the US legal process.

Now I have my reservations about Khadr’s treatment. Personally, I think he should be repatriated and the mother and older sister should be charged with treason, child abuse, child neglect and abandonment. That should be enough to earn both of them life sentences. The Children’s Aid Society has plenty of evidence after documenting how Abdulkareem was brainwashed into fighting for Al Qaeda.

But my views aside, what would you have the Government of Canada do? Set aside our laws and make exceptions for Canadians who go join terrorist groups abroad? If Omar Khadr deserves to be bailed out of his jam, what about some caught smuggling drugs in Singapore? And what if a Canadian citizen is caught killing Pakistani soldiers as part of the Pakistani Taliban? Would you think our government should intervene then too? Or is your double standard only reserved for Muslims who get caught allegedly killing Americans?

And by the way, I am curious why you are so enamoured with the Khadrs. You do realize that Khadr Sr. efforts probably resulted in a few Pakistanis getting killed right?

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

They do not allow Muslim women to wear Hijab and go to school, they do not allow freedom of expression, freedom of speech is denied to Muslims, intolerance and hate crimes towards Muslims are on the rise in these so called western societies. Muslims are being persecuted, you can be easily offloaded from boarding a plane, your name can pull from any no-fly list, you can be pulled out of an immigration queue, you can be denied entry, detained without a charge if Your Muslim name is spelled in a certain way. – posted by Umair

Utter BS.

You are allowed to wear the hijab, the burkha, your damn bedsheets if you please in Canada. The only province that has issues is Quebec. And that’s largely because they consider covering of the face to be incompatible with French Canadian culture. So you cannot go to a school or government office in Quebec with your face covered. You can still cover your hair. Just not the face. And this rule is no different than the rules in Turkey for example.

The rest is utter BS. You are just desperate now to show something wrong in Canada. There is no issue with freedom of speech. The only thing banned in Canada is hate speech. If you start spewing crap against another religion or race or whatever, then you will be arrested. And even then, the hate speech has to border on an incitement to violence.

Nor has there been any documented instances of increased violence or attacks on Muslims in Canada. It’d be news if there was, for sure.

Nor do Muslims get pulled out of the queue at immigration. That’s BS. And they do not deny entry just because you are Muslim. That’s utterly absurd. Muslim immigration has even gone up in the last few years. And the government is going out of its way to make student visas more accessible and promoting this policy in the Muslim world (so Muslim students who don’t find the US or Europe acceptable can choose Canada).

As for the no-fly list, you get on there if you are a threat. Muslim or otherwise. Get drunk too many times on a plane and you might find yourself on it. Has nothing to do with being Muslim at all.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

Umairpk: “Canada is rather a hellhole for immigrants, a nightmare where your dreams are shattered you end up doing menial jobs and your self respect is finished.”

That’s correct. People have too much rights in places like Canada, US etc. Women can wear whatever they want, they can go to college, and people can make fun out of religious leaders. How abhorent? No one does menial job in Pakistan. Everyone has food delivered at home, life is cozy and comfortable. In some parts Pakistan rape victims can be flogged for adultery. In some parts, music is banned. No international cricket and no foreign players want to come inside Pakistan and play.

If Pakistani doctors and lawyers are cleaning toilets in Canada, that probably tells something about their academic background and reliability or they are so scared of living in Pakistan that they are willing to try the broom stick in Canada. That part will not make sense to Mr. Umair who seems to be well settled in an upper class military family in Pakistan.

“Atleast in their home countries, immigrants can live as first class citizens.”

Contradictory sentence. An immigrant only lives in a foreign country. He cannot live in his home country and call himself an immigrant. If Pakistanis are so comfortable in their home country, I wonder why they are flooding the consulates of UK, US, Canada and other Western countries. May be they are not falling for propaganda like you are.

“I am a Pakistani, i Live in Pakistan and am a citizen of the world.”

Still you won’t get visa to Western countries with your world citizen passport.

“I stand up for peoples rights, justice and equality and am proud of it.”

People here refers to Sunni Muslims belonging to the elite families in Pakistan. The others can go to hell.

“Rather ending up as a lowlife immigrant in Canada, I prefer to live as a first class citizen in Pakistan.”

That’s correct. Shahzad shares the same views with you.
How come he did not get a red carpet welcome in your glorious country?

“true there is corruption here, there are lack of opportunities, but we will build a better country and hand it over to our future generation.”

You are not going to achieve any of that with your country on the brink with no money and an army armed to its teeth with dangerous weapons, militants gaining ground, people getting blown up everywhere.

You are beginning to sound like that Iraqi general who came on TV and kept proclaiming that Iraqi troops were winning, when American troops had blasted the Iraqi military into submission. It was great comedy and I like your words in the same sense. Thanks for providing some comic relief for us.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

1) What I find ridicuolous about Canada is their government structure too, what is the role of Governor General?

You’re not Canadian. You’re not expected to understand it.

The GG is the Queen’s representative in Canada, since Canada is a personal union (we are not a colony) with the British Crown. Pakistan had one at independence. Might want to read up on it. Our GG is just a ceremonial role though.

2) The conservative PM Stephen Harper has ruined Canada’s reputation by siding with war mongering neo-cons in America.

Don’t care. What matters to Canadians is how he does in Canada. I could care less what foreigners think. Sometimes we side with the Americans (Afghanistan), sometimes we don’t (Iraq). And sometimes we even get there before the Americans (WWII). We generally as a country do what we think is right, and scarcely give a damn what outsiders think. Be they Pakistani or American.

In this case, with our security directly threatened by AQ and the rest, you won’t find too many Canadians who have an issue with siding with the Yanks on this one.

3) Above that you have the Queen as head of state, what crap?.

And most of us quite like it that way. The Queen is part of our national identity as a distinct nation in the Americas. She reminds us of our heritage and helps differentiate us from our southern neighbours.

And by the way, She is Queen of Canada when she is here. She is crowned as Queen of Canada. Has a Canadian Royal Standard. A Canadian passport. And Canadian Guards of Honour when she (or other royals) are here. She’s Canadian to us.

4) And who doesnt know that doctors, surgeons, qualified engineers end up cleaning toilets and washing dishes in Canada. Canada is rather a hellhole for immigrants, a nightmare where your dreams are shattered you end up doing menial jobs and your self respect is finished.

Sure we have issues with immigrant qualifications. But it’s a huge exaggeration that doctors, surgeons and engineers drive taxis and clean toilets. If you can pass the exams, you can get a license to practice. The standard is the same as Canadian trained professionals. The only reason they are driving taxis and working at Pizza Pizza is usually because they can’t pass the exams. If they are struggling to qualify, that might well say something about the Pakistani education system.

Would you suggest we drop our standards and make exceptions for immigrants? You willing to enter a building built by somebody who got a license with a lower pass mark on his exams? How do you feel about getting treated by a surgeon who passed on a lower bar because he was an immigrant? Still think it’s a good idea?

5) Atleast in their home countries, immigrants can live as first class citizens.

Might want to ask the Ahmadis if they feel the same way….

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

All I did is to launch a reply to an allegation by Keith, that Pakistan is turning like Nazi Germany. -posted by Umair

Read up on Kristallnacht and pre-WWII Germany and you tell me if you don’t see parallels in the run-up to the Holocaust and what’s going on with minorities now in Pakistan.

You can try and divert attention all you want. While Canada most certainly does not have a perfect record (find me a country that does), our minority citizens aren’t being butchered simply for their race, skin colour or religion. And they most certainly aren’t being butchered at their places of worship.

And the most scary part about all that you’ve written? That’s exactly how Germans reacted to criticism by outsiders in the run-up to the Holocaust. They sought to deflect attention from their actions by pointing out problems with everybody else. Hitler sought to portray the Germans as victims and as routinely victimized in non-German lands (like you are doing with Muslims here). In fact, he used that line to invade Poland and Czechoslovakia and get Anschluss on in Austria.

Whether you choose to open your eyes or not, there’s way too many parallels.

And just remember. Those who choose not to learn from history are condemned to repeat it. If I was a minority in Pakistan, I’d be getting my passport ready, and booking my ticket and begging for any country possible to take me.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

Umair,

One question: If life is so bad for Muslims in the West, why aren’t the moving back?

What does it say about Pakistan, that Pakistanis would rather drives cabs in Toronto than live in Pakistan?

….Though if it were me, I’d make the same choice. Cab drivers are well paid in Canada.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

@Keithz,

Thanks for basically backing up what I said in early comments in response to Umair’s finger pointing.

I must admit, any country is a hellhole for those who are unqualified, underrepresented or a minority that is not equated as a full human being compared to the majority, ie. Pakistan.

Canada or the U.S. are both places where people can reach their dreams if they choose to. That is the bottom line.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

Umair,

Buddy, if you are concerned about the plight of Muslims in Canada, then come check it out for yourself. Get yourself a visa and a plane ticket.

I will buy you your first beer and personally drive you around.

One of my cousins is married to an Ismaili. I am sure he’d be happy to show you how prosperous Muslims are in Canada (his family is the most well-off out of anybody I am related to). You can ask his parents if they’d ever move back to Pakistan. See the answer you’ll get.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

You are all missing it..Umair is too clever..he doesn’t believe in what he writes..he just wanted to change the topic…and that’s exactly what is happening here..

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive

G-W:

“I assume that you believe tha Ahmadiyas are equal to Sunni’s as muslims? Please clarify. Have the courage to say the right thing. Do you agree with the Bhutto’s decree labelling the Ahmediya as non-muslims? A simple yes or no will do.”

Why don’t you Pakistanis let them call themselves what they want? Why don’t you let them call their places of worship what they want? Why do you have to do it for them?

Who cares if they are equal to Sunni Muslims or not? Should it matter?

You don’t see the parallels to Hitler’s Germany here? The Germans believed that Jews were not equal to them too. And since they weren’t equal, it was okay to kill them.

70 years later, some Sunni Muslims in Pakistan think the Ahmadis are not equal to them. They’ve passed laws declaring Ahmadis not to be equal (just like Hitler did for the Jews) and now some Sunni Muslims think it’s okay to kill Ahmadis because they are not equal.

70 years ago most German residents sided with Hitler. Or at least they didn’t stick up for their Jewish friends and neighbours. They let Hitler take power. And then let him erase the Jews (and other minorities). Today, Pakistanis are largely silent about minorities getting killed. Particularly if its Ahmadis getting killed. If a drone attack kills 1 Sunni tomorrow, there will still be more concern in Pakistan than if a terrorist kills 100 Ahmadis or Christians or Sikhs or Hindus or Shias.

Don’t like the parallels to Germany? Read your own history. Look at the steady depreciation of the rights of Bengalis prior to the Bengali Holocaust in East Pakistan. There’s a lot of parallels between the way West Pakistanis looked at Bengalis in the 1960s and the way Sunni Muslim Pakistanis look at minorities today.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

^ Just to make it clear, the lead quote in the above post was from Umair.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

You are all missing it..Umair is too clever..he doesn’t believe in what he writes..he just wanted to change the topic…and that’s exactly what is happening here..

Posted by Seekeroftruth
—–

Yeah. The guy’s probably a politician at home. Certainly, he’s slippery enough to be one. I hear the Hitler Youths had such apologists and propagandists too.

However, I for one won’t forget these folks. I sincerely worry about the state of minorities in Pakistan and about what will happen to them. It’s just way too horrific, the threats have to live with.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

Last point for Umair.

The ‘Baltimore Chronicle’ is not a real newspaper. It’s just some extreme left wing blog that’s out to hate on anybody and everybody. Quoting them is no better than quoting “Rupee News”.

You want to dish on Canada? How about you bring some real sources and stats. And if you are going to do that, make it fair, bring the equivalent stats for Pakistan. Let’s compare.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

KeithZ: “How about you bring some real sources and stats. And if you are going to do that, make it fair, bring the equivalent stats for Pakistan. Let’s compare.”

Are you kidding? Here are some true facts :-)

1. Canada is bloody cold, most of the year. Out here in paradise, temperatures go as high as 50C and life is too comfortable. On top of that there is no water (damn Indians), no electricity and one can feel nature in its fullness. That’s how things were a thousand years ago. That tradition has been kept alive in Pakistan.

2. Canadian life is so boring that your soldiers have to come all the way to Afghanistan to get some thrill ride. Back in Pakistan, everything a fighter looks for are already there. It so much part of Pakistani life that one cannot tell who is a fighter and who is an ordinary man.

3. Canada has four time zones. That makes those living on the West coast lazy. They wake up only when Easterners are already working and are three hours into it. In Jinnah’s country, there is only one time zone, but five prayers daily. Canadians do not get to pray five times and they suffer as a result.

4. Canada tries to hold on to all provinces at all costs. Quebec wanted to go it alone and they wouldn’t allow it. Pakistan let East Pakistan go out of goodwill for the Bengali brothers. How many countries can do that? And Indians are taking credit for that.

5. In Canada every part has laws and rules. That is not freedom really. In Pakistan there are tribal areas like Swat, FATA, NWFP and Balochistan where there are no laws and rules. How can anyone compare with that freedom? Pakistan is trying its best to give Kashmiris the same freedom, but the damn Indians are not allowing it.

6. Canadian media is boring. In Pakistan rumors and conspiracy theories fill the air and there is enough hot topics to talk about.

7. And Pakistan has the Islamic bomb. No matter how much Canadians can try, they can never have the Islamic bomb.

8. In Pakistan men can hide inside a Burqa and blow up those who disagree. In Canada one cannot even wear a burqa, especially if it is a man.

9. And Canada is home to Irshad Manji who really is not a Muslim. Pakistan is home to Muslims only.

10. Canada’s cricket team sucks. Pakistan’s cricket team is unique. It is the only one in the world with 11 captains leading the team at the same time.

Want anymore? Brother Umair will fill in soon.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

^ The only one’s I’ll dispute:

1. You’ve never seen a Prairie summer. You can get temperatures well into the 30s and records in the 50s in the summer. That comes with a Prairie Winter where you can get temperatures which as -30 and as low as -50.

With the exception of the Prairies and the Arctic, the rest of the country is not that cold. Southern Ontario is actually on the same latitude as France. The climate is only a tad colder cause we are more in-land.

…that’s my Canadian plug for the day to remind everyone that we don’t all live in igloos with snow 12 months of the year.

3. Canada has 6 time zones: Newfoundland (kinda like Indians with the half hour), Atlantic, Eastern, Central, Mountain and Pacific.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

And I forgot….if we ever build one, it’ll be called the Maple bomb. But who needs nukes, when you have beavers:

http://news.discovery.com/animals/beaver -dam-canada-space.html

Mess with us, and we’ll stick our beavers on you!

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

Top ten things that may kill immigrants in Canada

1)McDonalds
2)Old Age
3)Tripping on your own feet
4)Misreading the medicine cabinet
5)Not going to the doctor because he may not like Paks
6)Crappy Cricket team
7)Boredom from such little societal violence
8)Boredom from polite people
9)bordeom from having a cushy life
10)bordom from having good shopping

oh…

11)choking on a black jelly bean

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

@ KPSingh: Good stuff :)

I’ll add one more to that:

Canada has a boring parliamentary democracy with a PM & his cabinet in charge. Pakistan has a real “colorful” parliamentary democracy where the President has more powers that the PM & either of them can be hanged/jailed/exiled anytime by the army chief.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Umairpk,
I am a Canadian and an Ahmadi. I taught high school in Toronto and although some of my co-workers would like to have stopped me, they could not.

You say “I think what Ahmedis say is that their founder of Ahmediya movement proclaimed to have divine power and their belief in the finality of Prophethood is questionable. I read somewhere someone was arguing that Ahmedis comply with all but one pillar of Islam. In my words, they are as closest as you can get to a Muslim.”

“Khatam an Nabuwat” or the “Seal of the prophets” is translated by the Promised Messiah to mean “the BEST of prophets.” Isn’t that why you get a seal? When you get a seal on your degree, it doesn’t mean that it will be the last degree you will ever earn, does it? So the whole anti-Ahmadi argument hinges on one word: the interpretation of the word “seal.”

Every religion is waiting for a prophet to come. Ahmadis are they only ones to claim one. Why is there such resistance? Because there is always resistance when a prophet comes.

We do not claim that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian has a “divine power” per se. If Allah tells him to declare that he is the Imam Mahdi, he has no choice.

The Holy Prophet, pbuh, did not meet with success when he first preached to his family. They ate his lamb stew and laughed at his message. Gabriel told Muhamed pbuh to give the message or Allah would “seize him.” He gave the message.

The Ahmadi plight in Pakistan is similar to the plight of the early Muslims in Mecca.

Canada is not without prejudice, but right now it’s one of the best places to be a Muslim.

Posted by OntKnight | Report as abusive

KeithZ: “Canada has 6 time zones:”

6 Time zones? Now I am convinced Canada is not for faithful Pakistanis like Umair. Imagine having to pray 5 times a day and if hypothetically speaking Umair had to travel across all of them in a day, he’d be praying 5 times 6, thirty times. That is back breaking even for Umair. On the East, he has to face praying in one direction. At the end of the day, after crossing the country on business, now he has to face the other way and pray. Are you kidding? Keep your cold prairie to yourself. Pakistan was created for keeping the nukes warm. This way the match sticks will stay dry and they won’t have to waste precious matches trying to light the fuse. There is already severe shortage of matches trying to light lamps. In Madrasas, they have already removed all chapters that talk about electricity. This way a new generation of Pakistanis will be born not knowing what it means. Once they do not know about electricity, there would be no need for it. This way Pakistan can save precious money during future economic sanctions.

And stop frightening Umair and other proud Pakistanis with descriptions of cold Canada.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

G-W

Some Canadian you are. You know it’s not McDonald’s that kills Canadians. It’s Timmy’s double-double and Timbits!

How’d you pass your citizenship exam? :-p

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

OntKnight,

Umair actually thinks you’d be better off in Pakistan where you’d officially have less rights than everybody else because you are not ‘equal’.

He thinks getting frisked at the airport is worse than being killed while praying.

Oh. And your opinion doesn’t count. You’re just an Ahmadi. What would you know? /sarcasm

Can you tell us what you hate more? Being Canadian or being Ahmadi?

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

You guys all know what a terrible place canada is to live. We only topped the Human Development Index eight times. That’s some kind of terrible record since nobody else has done it. We always end up in the top 5. 4th last year cause of the recession. Horrible.

Pakistan is much better. They came in at 141 on the list.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

KeithZ: “Pakistan is much better. They came in at 141 on the list.”

That’s right. The higher the number, the better it is. Pakistan has more population than Canada. Population can only increase if the place is livable. And Pakistan’s population doubling since the time of independence is clear indication of the environment being conducive and appealing for comfortable living. In Canada, they have to rely on immigrants, that too from Pakistan, highly qualified, but having to start at the bottom with a brook stick. And Afghans flock to Pakistan in millions and not to Canada. Most Afghans never wanted to go back, thereby strengthening the multi-cultural facet of Pakistan. They love the freedom where one can kill anyone at will, lack of need for education and doing nothing. The list is endless. I better stop now. Otherwise jealousy will drown me. :-)

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Keithz:

“G-W

Some Canadian you are. You know it’s not McDonald’s that kills Canadians. It’s Timmy’s double-double and Timbits!”

–>The great 3-course canadian grand slam breakfast is the true killer of all humans, that being:

1)cigarette
2)tim hortons coffee
3)tim bit AND donut

That combination is alone is likely to strike terror on an unimaginable scale in anybody including OSA, the Taliban.

I believe even the Drones can be no match for such a lethal killer.

This maybe one way to deal with Pakistan’s militants. We need to get them smoking and send Tim H. there. On top of all of that, you don’t need to spend billions on Hellfire cruise missiles and such nonsense. You don’t even need a security apparatus, you let that fried dough, do its killing, that is what it does best.

;D

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

On a more serious note. Capitalism may the answer to the militant problems in the region. This will help bring peoples into the modern age.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

This maybe one way to deal with Pakistan’s militants. We need to get them smoking and send Tim H. there. On top of all of that, you don’t need to spend billions on Hellfire cruise missiles and such nonsense. You don’t even need a security apparatus, you let that fried dough, do its killing, that is what it does best.

Posted by G-W

Tim Hortons in Pakistan. If Afghanistan can have it why not Pakistan.

BTW Is there any Halal Double Double they sell ?

Posted by punjabiyaar | Report as abusive

G-W: “On a more serious note. Capitalism may the answer to the militant problems in the region. This will help bring peoples into the modern age.”

I slightly disagree here. Capitalism, or any other “ism” will not solve any problem so long as the underlying culture is not progressive. All the various models rely on the culture underneath. What works for one culture, does not work well for another. For capitalism to succeed, the standards of morality, ethics, fairness, rights etc have to be high. Respect for law and good laws are equally important. For a large part, many Western nations have evolved towards that direction over the years and have largely become successful as a result. Creativity is an essential ingredient. In Western societies creativity and individualism play a huge role. Most of the time this works and these countries have done very well as a result. When those cultural factors become shaky, things begin to fall apart. The latest economic collapse in the US happened due to corporate greed that began to cheat on the system. If it can be curtailed by law, things will fall back. Westerners have relied on creativity to exel right from the time of industrial revolution. Even those cultures that simply copied those values and added their innovations on top of that have done well. Japan and South East Asian cultures are an example. Without the proper infrastructure and foundations, capitalism cannot survive. Take the Middle East for example. They have money without having to invest on creativity and other human right standards. It will run well so long as there is oil demand. Once that dries up, they will dry up too. Laying foundations for a strong culture that looks at itself, adjusts based on the lessons learnt and keeps on improving are the most important thing. If these values are ingrained, any system will work well. China is doing well on capitalism because its culture is rooted on Taoism where merit is respected and obedience to authority is ingrained. Communism is a road block for complete success there. In India, many of these values are there through ancient teachings and cultural respect for them. That is why India is able to adopt Western style democracy and leap frog into the big league despite all the drawbacks. Culture will clean things up, if it is rooted in good values.

This is the reason why I keep preaching that cultures should not grow up basing their values on hatred for others, isolating themselves with conservatism and relying on force for every little issue. That will lead to militant ways and war mongering.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Fellows,
You are backbiting Umair. This is not nice.
You should act like the hosts of the country. I am sure that there are a lot of Ahmadis seriously considering migrating to Canada due to its kind laws for the oppressed.
Umair is not an anti-Ahmadi. He just doesn’t know. He’s only heard rumours.
Humour doesn’t not translate well. I know. My husband is from Lahore and my mother-in-law is from Peshawar.
Welcome the Ahmadis and anyone who is ready for a true democracy.
Why don’t you take a drive up the 400 and go see the mosque next to Canada’s wonderland. Take a tour. Meet the Ahmadis. They would love to show you around.
When I used to drive by, I used to say “What is this!?” Little did I know I would become an Ahmadi. I love that mosque now. I was married in it.
Show some humbleness. I understand your Canadian sense of humour, but I am equally sure they don’t get it.
I have been crying in my sajdas, praying that ALL the Ahmadis who were hurt by the Taliban should go to Canada.
But I am afraid that some other countries will get that blessing.
You have NO idea what Ahmadiyyat will do for Canada. In the end, the Ahmadis will be the biggest blessing for the country.

Posted by AKnight | Report as abusive

KPSingh,
Is that Keith Singh, by any chance?

Posted by AKnight | Report as abusive

It is so exciting to see Reuters publish the truth about the Ahmadi Muslim Community. You have no idea how refreshing it is. Up until last week, all we ever heard were Associated Press articles written by anti-Ahmadis stating that “Ahmadis, a minority sect reviled by mainstream Muslims as heretics.” And when I protested the truth of the matter, do you know what one newspaper Vice President said to me?
“That was a more sympathetic article. We aren’t pulling it.”
So we finally get the truth and you all are arguing about capitalism and doughnuts.
This is a real celebrathion! Alhumdoolilah! Mashallah! Allah ho Akbar.
If an Ahmadi writes “La ila hilila” on a wedding invitation in Pakistan, he can go to jail. These new citizens will truly appreciate everything Canada has to offer. Believe me!

Posted by AKnight | Report as abusive

@UmairPk,

Sometimes Umair, it seems like you just say stuff for shock value just so you can sit back and enjoy the fireworks.

You may need to get married and have some kids, you seem to be of idle mind.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

This is the reason why I keep preaching that cultures should not grow up basing their values on hatred for others, isolating themselves with conservatism and relying on force for every little issue. That will lead to militant ways and war mongering.

Posted by KPSingh01

–>This is exactly what I have been saying. A country built on hate cannot survive. That is why Pakistani’s average ones, must take the mullahs head on, their militant madrassas and make them take it to the chin and call them out. Already, every day, there is another generation of children in Pakistan that are lost to these mullahs, praying on their innocence and training some of them to hate, and some of them to die and some of them to kill others. Army is too cowardice to do anything, it will be upto the civilians to challenge these crooks head on. The question is, is there any body man enough to save their country and their religion and their fellow country men?

Western countries are getting tired of sending their children to die to fight extremism, made in Pakistan. We western citizens want Pakistani citizens to get of their seats and become pro-active and politically involved in challenging this militant disease that is gutting the Af-Pak region.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

Keith/AKnight/OntKnight/GW

If you would like to know, i work with Research in Motion based in Waterloo, I interact with many other IT firms based in US as part of my job. Though I still have’nt been to North America. I am pretty familiar with Canadian lifestyle, or time zones etc. But truly pointed out by you guys, in response to Keith stating that Pakistan is turning into Nazi Germany, I thought it would be a good idea to criticise Canada and put you on the defensive. The only point i wanted to make is that while Pakistan is not a perfect country, other countries also have their own share of problems. That Muslims also face difficulties in western countries.

Among everything I stated, you just did not pay attention to a few important points I made.
1. Pakistan is a democracy.
2. Pakistan is a free society.
3. Pakistan has a fairly independent judiciary.
4. Pakistan’s parliament has full right to lawmaking.
5. Pakistan’s constitution is in place.
6. Pakistan has a largely free electronic and print media.
7. Pakistan Military and Law enforcement agencies have responded with full support whenever there is an attack on the citizens.
8. Pakistan Army is engaged in a largescale military operation against terrorists in tribal areas.

When the attack on Ahmedis took place, the police and commandoes who responded might well have been Sunni. At this stage no one in Pakistan is a Sunni or Shia Islmaili or Ahmedi. The Punjab provincial government has come out in full support of them. Myself being a Sunni, i might not agree to the Ahmedi beleifs. But certainly causing mayhem and going on a killing spree is some madness and I am against it.

Ahmedis can defend their beleifs, the supreme court and parliament can repeal overturn old laws. Lets not make this a case of persecution of Ahmedis in Pakistan. If statistics were to be pulled up, mainstream Sunni Muslims have faced more terrorist attacks and casualty figure will be much higher.

My argument is, the terrorists who are involved in activities in Pakistan would kill anyone who does not agree with their version of Islam. It does not matter to them if someone is Shia, Ahmedi or Sunni etc.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

When the the Marriot hotel was bombed in Islamabad I barely missed it; had it been a day earlier… During the Red Mosque siege in Islamabad when Pakistan Army stormed it, I heard the first explosions when I was at work not far away. Former PM Benazir Bhutto was assassinated, I drove by the venue of her rally some hours before the incident took place. The Parade Lane Mosque was attacked and innocent children and serving and retired high ranking military officers/others were the victims. All these losses I am mentioning were suffered by Sunnis. Almost all victims were sunni, these are just a few incident that took place near my residence or workplace. I am not including the suicide bombs that struck markets, university campuses etc. they even did not spare old pensioners lined up outside the bank to collect their pension. The worst took place between 2007-09 but those dark years are behind now and 2010 is largely Pakistan’s year so far. We are having far greater success in stemming the tide of terrorism.

Whereas, the interior Ministry send terror alert re: minorities, lack of action resulted in the attack on Ahmedis. Pakistan is largely a developing country with fewer resources. The Military and Law enforcement agencies are already stretched thin. Despite everything, I agree there is no excuse or no room for camplacency. Pakistan should create conditions of security and equal rights for all its citizens irrespective of their faith. The terrorists have specifically targeted the Army and Police. It is the sheer morale, courage and committment that we have been able to face an extremely difficult situation.

The only thing wrong is to potray the attack on Ahmedis in wrong manner. It is not a case of persecution of minority, it is a case of terrorists creating disharmony in the society and challenging the government/state.

What Pakistan has been eduring, a nation has to be very resilient to come out of it. And we are almost out of the situation, where there are shortcomings we will address them. I agree change is much needed in Pakistan, we will get there slowly but surely.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Umair,

Thanks for reciting the ideals of Pakistan from the website, or tourism manual, whereever you copied and pasted it from.

You forgot the next point, Pakistan is owned by its Army.

Pakistan is not a fully functioning democracy, it works for a few, most minorities are underrepresented, even most muslims, with the exception of the Punjabi Sunni’s who have the Raj in office.

I am not faulting you individually for this, but Pakistan does not acknowledge non-muslims as a full witness during trials. Does it not require 4 kaffirs to be able to give the equivalent witness of a muslim? Does it not also require 4 witnesses to backup the words of a rape victim? Does it not also require 2 women to equal the word of a man in court? What kind of unequal legal system is this?

I also take exception to the blasphemy laws that have been abused to subjugate minorities. These laws are setup with the intention of pacifying and appeasing Sunni Right extremists and making the minorities take it to the chin everytime there is some bogus or fictitious claim and there is often little followup or recourse for victims who are falsly accused and justice is rarely done.

Your educational system still heavily laden with propaganda against the West and India. I see nothing democratic about such a tightly controlled, rigid and propagandized curriculum.

On top of that your civilian government is kept on a leash by the Army and the Army cavorts and fears the right wing militants.

Pakistan is more a political stew of extremes, than it is a democracy, just barely hanging in there.

The biggest thing lacking is constitutional secularity. Until that happens and some other laws change, minorities will always take a beating in Pakistan from one extreme group or another and the authorities will never do enough, because the law does not really require it so.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

Keith:

Omar Khadr was just 15 when he was captured in a gunbattle with US forces. Two USAF F-15s dropped huge bombs on that house, his right eye was badly damaged, a bullet wound made a hole by passing through his shoulder. He was almost killed during the fight, the argument that he threw a grenade on a paramedic is futile. In injured state I dont know how he managed to throw a grenade. The US Army mechanized division and F-15s up against a teenager.

He remains to be only citizen of a western nation in Guantanamo Bay. CSIS agents did him a HUGE favour by bringing him a fast food meal and visiting him. The video of a terrified Omar being interrogated by Canadian agents is on You Tube. Damned Canadian laws, the boy was a kid when he went to battlefield. I might not be supportive of senior Khadr, but atleast, Omar should have been taken out of Gitmo, brought back to Canada and given a fair trial and a lawyer. he could still have been rehabilitated and reintegrated back in the society. Leave the statements of his mother or sister, you could have put him in rehab, did justice.
Now you tell me am I wrong? probably for you a human life is less worthy than Canadian laws and pride. In my view humanity and justice is the biggest law. Unfortunate for Omar that he was led to battlefield by his father/family. What was the fault of a 15 year old teenager himself?

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

G-W

It is futile to argue with you because you seem to be devoid of any reason rather acting ignorant. Why are all the people that do not like Pakistan here, commenting on an article written about it?
If you don’t like it, great, move on and read things that interest you.
Coming here and bashing just shows how naive and uneducated you are.
You don’t see football fans commenting on a baseball or american football article. That’s because one doesn’t care about the sport but don’t waste their evening bashing it either.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

@Umair,

You tell me, what the fx$% was a 15 year old doing in Afghanistan of all places, hanging out with Jihadi’s? First answer that.

What did any westerner to to Khadr? Growing up in Canada, all he did was benefit from living in a western culture and now he wants to kill them?

Next, in a war zone, anything goes, that is the reality of war, he should thank his lucky stars, that he did not get killed in combat, luckily U.S. forces are not merciless, they spared him, so thank the soldiers for that mercy.

Again, you cannot claim victim hood. Even at 15, one knows the difference between right and wrong. If he didn’t, his parents warped his mind beyond reason. No country has the resources to fix that many warped minds.

You are claiming that he was 15 and being minor, he should be left alone. Do you feel the same way about child brides in Muslim countries who are much younger than that and end up being forced to marry men older men, who often religiously manipulate their fathers into this? Your empty claims of humanity and justice bring total BS to your view.

Nobody forced Khadr to leave his good life in Canada to kill westerners. You reap what you sow. When I was 13 I knew the difference between right and wrong.

Khadr, in my view is no victim, so quit making him into that.

———-

@Keithz, others,

Another way to deal with militants in Af-Pak region, is obese them out of existence.

The biggest killer in NA and India is Diabetes and Heart disease. The killer is real cheap, but treatment expensive.

Instead of wasting so much money on military handouts and such, why not just stuff these militants silly with sweets and fatty food?

Just think, you can put all the Paks and Afghans at work and they can just stuff these militants and OSBL with jalebi, samosa, gulab jamun, burfi, gajar halwa, poori and everything fried and buttery to the point where they can’t even walk out to fit through their caves, because they are so fat. Militants this fat will become food addicts and will have a very short shelf life, as militants.

Widening the wastelines of the militants will make them bigger targets for drones, they will be slower, require more food and be a whole lot sloppier and need more clothes, more rest, more sleep and they will lose focus easily. The only problem is that you may quit recognizing wanted faces as they widen, stretch and round out.

With such hulking bodies and waistlines, heck they wont’ even generate enough testosterone to hurt a fly.

This may sound funny, but a good fat and sugar addiction may be just the right deterrent to mess these guys up fast and save a lot of NATO and Pakistani lives. On top of that, with the cheap labour in Af-Pak region, everybody will be working patriotically to fatten these guys out of existence.

Just think about it. It may be that simple. I don’t advocate anybody consuming food like this, but what the hey, I figure if these guys are killing innocents, why should we care about their body fat percentages anyway, let’s kill them in return with kindness and a box of ladoos to boot.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

Umair,

You are an educated articule guy, fine, I will give you that, you are also mentally very tough, as you keep refusing to answer questions and will never say the right thing, because you have no clue what the right thing is.

Your main priority to all of your answers is to trying to always make your country and your bretheren look good. I say this is wrong. You need to change and amend your political view, into more of a humanistic one, where you are not always defending the undefendable.

I understand you feel that we are all ingorantly bashing you. Sorry if you feel that way. Sometimes the facts are hard to answer upto, when everybody is throwing facts and you at the same time.

You should read some works by Nadeem Paracha. He is a proud Pakistani, but challenges the most popular beliefs in Pakistan and is in my opinion on of the most enlightened journalists there. I can’t compare you to him, but your political point of view compared to his, on some topics is at times, on some things is like comparing the 7th century to today’s.

Don’t take it personally. I don’t think you are a militant extremists, but I do think your political view is a safe and convenient one that represents most punjabi sunni Pak rule and most people in the blogs here don’t agree with it.

If you make absurd assertions, you will be called on them.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

Umair,

Re: Omar Khadr,

I want a clear answer from you on this scenario:

If a Canadian citizen was accused of killing a Pakistani soldier in the FATA tomorrow and ended up in a Pakistani prison, do you think our government should automatically pursue his repatriation without letting him/her face a trial in Pakistan first?

YES OR NO?

And don’t evade the question this time. Just answer yes or no.
============

As for my opinion….Like I said earlier, I have reservations about how his case has played out. I’ve even advocated for his repatriation myself. And I personally agree that he should be repatriated. But make no mistake, this is advocating for an exception to the rule. Even the Supreme Court has ruled that while they have reservations about the US tribunal process and Gitmo, that the government has no legal obligation to pursue his return.

However, our country has laws that are very clear. Don’t want trouble? Don’t leave Canada. It’s as simple as that. If you leave the country, you assume the risks that come with being outside Canada. If a Canadian Citizen is implicated in a foreign crime, the government will only intervene once due process has taken place.

The government will provide consular access and work to ensure that you are well treated while in detention. But it cannot guarantee those things. The government of Canada cannot guarantee your rights as a Canadian citizen outside Canada. It is unfortunate that Omar Khadr’s family accepted the risks on his behalf. But the fault is theirs, not the governments (that’s why I’d like to see mother prosecuted for child abuse). Really, what kind of parent takes their child to an active war zone out of choice?

The government has made it clear, that they will intervene once his trial is over. And if possible they will work with the US to allow him to serve his sentence in Canada so he can be close to his family. That’s already more special treatment than anybody else accussed of a crime abroad has gotten from the government.

And I daresay, while most Canadians do sympathize with him, you won’t find too many who feel that we should make exceptions to our laws and that the Prime Minister should be intervening for another Khadr family drama (again).

All around, there’s just no sympathy because Canadians are tired of bailing this family out time after time. One Prime Minister bailed out the father. Another Prime Minister arranged for the younger khadr to fly home and eventually get medical treatment. How did the family repay the government? By suing them, of course, when another Khadr was denied a passport after admitting on TV that he had joined Al Qaeda (an illegal act for which he was never prosecuted). And now they want another Prime Minister to get another Khadr out of prison again?

The Khadr’s got twice the amount of support and personal attention from three Prime Ministers than Mr. Sampson who was framed and nearly beheaded in Saudi Arabia. No Prime Minister flew out to Saudi to beg for clemency for him.

It’s ridiculous, offensive, yet laughable to use his case as an example of how all Muslims are treated in Canada. Are you seriously going to suggest that Canada’ reputation with respect to the treatment of Muslims hinges on how we treat one guy who has allegedly killed a soldier (the same soldiers by the way who saved his life after the firefight) of our closest ally?

By and large, the vast, vast majority of Muslims are treated very well in Canada. You’ve seen the comments by other Canadian Muslims above. In fact, the majority of them are probably better off here than in their countries of origin. And of course, if they are unhappy, nobody is forcing them to stay here either.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

Keith

To your question re: Omar Khadr.
If a 15 year old Canadian citizen ends up fighting in FATA and killed a Pakistani soldier. I would say investigate the case, one life (of Pak soldier) would have been lost already. see if another 15 year old life whose eye is gone and there ais ahole in his shoulder visible almost killed, might be saved, brought to justice. if possible hand him over to Human Rights commission of Canada, ask the Canadian government that he is a minor committed a crime. Take him back to rehabilitation and try to reintegrate him in the society.

Probably, but I am really not sure.
Again your point that his life was saved by US soldiers afterwards is not true. Only he was screaming from pain, spoke perfect english in North American accent did the US soldiers evacuate him and kept him alive for interrogation.

Keith, war is unfortunate, Canadian forces have lost soldiers in Afghanistan, so di Pakistan’s. I admire Canada, you have the compassion, you might have a big heart as well. But I have to love my country Pakistan as it is too. If we can get above nationalistic sentiments, we can become good humans.

Take the case of five American citizens in Pakistan, they were in their 20s too. I advocate our government should hand them over to US authorities on promise that they should send them to rehab, work with them to reintegrate them into society as useful citizens.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

@keithz,

What I find even more offensive, is that our liberalism has been hijacked at times, it feels. Where do we draw the line?

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

Just to add one little thing here, being a man of faith myself. Omar Khadr was saved like a little angel, no one survives the onslaught of a mechanized armour division of a modern army and laser guided bombs dropped by most advanced fighter jets of the modern era.
When God saves a person’s life, man should also save that person. That is an act of kindness, Omar was a boy. he might be unknowingly doing bad things, i dont have sympathy maybe for his sister, or his father or mother or elder brother. I am only concerned about Omar.

In Islam our belief is, you have mercy on the those who are on the earth, the one above in heavens/skies will have mercy upon you.

How long will it take for Omar to be with his family to serve his sentence in Canada? His trial has even not begin yet. He was a 15 year old teenager when captured, now he is almost 24 maybe.

Above all, President Obama had promised to close Guantanamo bay within 100 days of taking office. What are the beaureucratic hurdles, why has that not happened? When is this torture going to stop?

When we know there is an emerging problem, why dont sign extradition treaties. Why support extraordinary rendition as in the case of Mahar Arar?
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/arar/

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Umairpk: “Why are all the people that do not like Pakistan here, commenting on an article written about it?”

It is not that we do not like Pakistan. What the clowns do in Pakistan affects India which happens to be in the neighborhood. If Pakistan can mind its own business, trust me, no Indian will come on to your forums. For that matter, most Indians do not visit forums of other neighboring countries as much as they do in the case of Pakistan. Something for you guys to think about. You can hate anyone you dislike. But keep it to yourselves. India does not need Pakistan for anything. We are only concerned about the unceasing irritation your country and people cause towards us. Do not bring Kashmir issue here as a resolution. Kashmir is perfectly fine. If you can pack up your militant camps in Azad Kashmir and ask them to hang themselves, we could live in peace. Kashmir never had a problem until 1989 when your Mujahideen were unleashed there. So take them back and fight them as much as you want. We’ll mind our own business. By now Pakistan should have learned that being a smaller and poorer country, it simply cannot resort to forceful ways to tame a much bigger neighbor in all aspects. You got a nation for Muslims. Now keep it and do something with it instead of throwing stones in our direction. If you can talk amongst yourselves and decide to focus on nation building for a change, we’ll leave you alone. Let us see how many Pakistanis will take that up.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

Umair,

First off you dodged the question. Answer the question I posed to you. Should the government intervene before due process has take place?

In my example, should the Canadian government intervene after a Canadian citizen has killed a Pakistani soldier before Pakistan has tried him/her? Or should they let Pakistan finish it’s legal proceedings before we bring our citizen back?

That’s the question at hand. The law in Canada, and long standing policy (well before Omar’s case) has always been clear. Once you leave Canada, you are not entitled to anything. The government will try to help the best it can. But there are no guarantees. And if you do commit a crime, the government will only intervene after the country holding you has finished its process.

Omar is getting exactly the same treatment as any other Canadian who has committed a crime overseas. No more. No less.

—-

Let’s try again…if somebody kills one of your soldiers, do you think it’s fair for the other country’s government to extradite their citizen before he/she even faces trial in Pakistan?

And what if it wasn’t a Westerner? What if it was an Indian citizen who killed a Pakistani soldier in the FATA? And what if that Indian citizen was 15 years old? Should he be sent back to India to be rehabilitated without so much as a trial in Pakistan?

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

And by the way, this is not extraordinary rendition like the Maher Arar case (which was itself unusual because Arar crossed into the US voluntarily). Omar was captured as part of an enemy force hostile to a Canadian ally. Under our laws, that could earn up a life sentence and until very recently the death penalty.

Canadians aren’t very sympathetic because that could well have been a Canadian soldier who got killed.

As for torture….I can’t say if there is or is not torture at Gitmo, but we know for certain Omar isn’t being tortured. That’s been investigated thoroughly by several government agencies. The only thing he’s losing is his youth sitting in that prison. He can blame his parents for that one.

As for God saving him. Forget Allah. Thank the US medic who rushed to save his life, right after Omar is alleged to have killed a medic (a point that does not help his case).

While I believe he should be repatriated, I have no reason to see why the trial shouldn’t go ahead and the US should not be allowed to put up its evidence that Omar had killed the medic. If Omar is innocent, he’ll walk out free and onto a plane to Canada. If he’s convicted, the US has stated they won’t pursue the death penalty (nor will the Canadian government accept that). He’ll get a sentence and serve it in a prison near Toronto. He’ll probably also get off early by getting credit for being a youth at the time of the offence and extra credit for his Gitmo time. I think that’s fair. I see no reason why he shouldn’t be tried.

The only issue I see is that the trial is taking so long.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

Michael Berry Show; listen to the phone call below….
-posted by Umair

Do you really want to start comparing crazies in Pakistan and the US?

I am sure it won’t be difficult to find inflammatory anti-American, anti-Western rhetoric by a Pakistani, probably accompanied by a picture of a US flag being torched.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

@” The man behind the comments was Michael Berry, a former Houston City Council member and an award-winning radio talk show host with KPRC-950 AM. Michael Barry calls for blowing up Mosque.”
Posted by Umairpk

First of all, this Michael Berry conversation happened in the ‘heat of the moment’ & is a one-off incident. The guy is a conservative talk show host in the south & has no history whatsoever of inciting hatred or violence againts muslims. Secondly, he has been severely criticized for those comments all over the country & he and the radio netork, have issued apologies to muslims. There are these kindda right wing nuts in every country in the world & sometimes ‘freedom of speech’ does get outta hand. What do you suggest we do, electrocute him?

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Umair,

You are obviously enamored by Kyadr. I think in some circles and perhaps even the ones you frequent, he is possibly viewed as some kind of hero, by “some miracle”, God must have saved him.

What if Khadr was fighting the Pak Army and caught in a similar fire fight with Pakistani soldiers? Would you still advocate justice for him, even though he is a minor? I hope I did not complicate your argument in some way or throw your entire empathy into some kind of disarray.

I guess you are preaching Islamic beliefs here, within the context of Khadr and you believe he deserves a second chance, and you are only saying anything because he is a muslim.

Suppose for a second, what if he was working hand in claw with the Taliban, like the Taliban who are killing Pakistani’s and he was captured…would you still advocate saving the Canadian and giving him a second chance within the Pakistani or Canadian system? The question is, do you feel his shot at a second chance at a life, should it matter if he was intending to kill a Christian U.S. Soldier, or a Muslim Pakistani soldier?….please clarify concisely.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

And again, none of this still addresses my original assertion that there are striking parallels between the majority ethnic group attitudes from 1930s Nazi Germany and 2000s Sunni Pakistanis.

Just look at these two incidents:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristallnac ht
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Gojra_ riots

Just like then, the authorities stand aside and let the mobs do their dirty work. Just like then, officials themselves instigate the majority ethnic group by slandering them or trumping up charges or playing to grievances. Just like the then the government seeks to make the minorities less equal.

And just like then the authorities never prosecuted or punished those who perpetrated these heinous crimes.

There’s way too many unfortunate parallels between the incidences and where Pakistani society is heading today.

There’s more.

Just like Nazi Germany, Pakistan today is lagging behind its neighbours economically. Just like Pakistanis blame India for all their problems and cite historical grievances, Hitler trumped up the problems of the Alsace-Lorraine (their Kashmir) with the French and blamed the Treaty of Versailles for all of Germany’s problems. He also painted minorities as subversive elements (like how Christians and Hindus are viewed in Pakistan today). And just like how Pakistanis use hatred against India to unite them, Hitler unified the German people by encouraging a narrative of German victimhood and an adversarial mentality against non-Germans.

And just like Sunnis in Pakistan today, Hitler made sure that every German knew that they were superior and the ‘master race’. He passed laws delegitimizing and eventually dehumanizing the Jews. He pursued social change that engrained the dehumanization of Jews in the German mindset…..etc….

Oh there’s way too many unfortunate parallels. And I bring them up because I am sincerely alarmed at the direction this country is heading with respect to the treatment of minorities.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

Keith:

“Let’s try again…if somebody kills one of your soldiers, do you think it’s fair for the other country’s government to extradite their citizen before he/she even faces trial in Pakistan?

-In this case there should be a timeline, the trial and legal proceedings should take place in a timely manner. Rather than wasting a person’s youth in prison and releasing him it is better to just keep that person in custody for life or it equals to a death sentence. The whole point here is, if a person is a minor and commits a crime, time should not be wasted in rehabilitating the person. Justice must be done, justice delayed is justice denied.

And what if it wasn’t a Westerner? What if it was an Indian citizen who killed a Pakistani soldier in the FATA? And what if that Indian citizen was 15 years old? Should he be sent back to India to be rehabilitated without so much as a trial in Pakistan?”

-RESOUNDING YES.
Certainly a 15 year old Indian boy should be handed over to the Indian human rights commission, rehabilitated and reintegrated into society. But a judge might have a different point of view, personal POV does not matter. In this case maybe I am clueless, rather you suggest what must be done. Maybe war altogether must be stopped, why create conditions where 15 years old are led to fight?

Lets not complicate the discussion further on Omar Khadr, in my view his trial in US must begin ASAP, whatever the charges are, let him defend himself. Get him out of Gitmo; the second thing. Lastly bring him back to Canada to serve his time. If released maybe one day he can live a normal life and contribute towards the Canadian society.

Mortal:
” There are these kindda right wing nuts in every country in the world & sometimes ‘freedom of speech’ does get outta hand. What do you suggest we do, electrocute him?”

-Its the same argument I have made repeatedly, even in Pakistan there are some criminal terrorist elements that the Pakistan Army is fighting. Those terrorist intend to cause maximum damage here as well, but our society rejects them. And certainly you don’t electrocute Michael Berry, probably give a chance to Muslims to let know what Islam stands for and people like Michael Barry might get the truth. But certainly, some people will never accept that Islam is good.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Umair,

Can you remind me again what omar Khadr’s case has to do with the dead Ahmadis?

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

Uu-Its the same argument I have made repeatedly, even in Pakistan there are some criminal terrorist elements that the Pakistan Army is fighting.
-posted by Umair

Are you seriously going to equate a blabbermouth on the radio with terrorists who kill people?

Wow. You really have no sympathy for these folks do You?

Your hurt national pride is worth more than their lives? That’s why you compare their killers to bad radio hosts? How proud the Ahmadis must feel to have you as their countrymen?

What makes me sad is that statiscally speaking you are one of the best and brightest in the country? And yet you still don’t see the Ahmadis as equals.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

Keith:
“Are you seriously going to equate a blabbermouth on the radio with terrorists who kill people?
Wow. You really have no sympathy for these folks do You?
Your hurt national pride is worth more than their lives? That’s why you compare their killers to bad radio hosts? How proud the Ahmadis must feel to have you as their countrymen?”

-I have repeatedly stated that what happened was an unfortunate incident, with no justification no excuse. I do not follow an ideology that asks to kill innocent people, no Muslim does. It should be clear enough, and what the heck do you mean by considering an Ahmedi as an equal to myself. Ofcourse all human beings are equal, i have stated it several times. Having different beliefs than Ahmedis is one thing, however everyone agrees they suffered a horrific attack. My question is, did the terrorists spare the Sunnis or shias etc? no. They would kill anyone who does not agree to their version of Islam.

I do not follow such thinking, certainly kiling innocent human beings is a criminal act. No faith, no religion, no country allows it.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

You are all stuglling with Umair trying to reason with him….you are either forgetting or don’t know the FUNDAMENTAL PILLAR of pakistani ideology…..

HERE IS THAT PILLAR:
The rules of conduct are different for paks ……….
and because of this………
the rules they expect others to conform to are much higher than what they have for themselves…..

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive

Indians are very familiar with this rule, it looks like Americans and Canadians are not able to understand…

This is what I refer to as pakistani supremacist ideology…They are very special, entitled people…..

Entitled to the tax payer money of Americans, Canadians, Japanese and the Europeans…Entitled to the blood of Indians….very, very special people…

It will come to an end though…All lies eventually get defeated….

Hitler’s propaganda minister Goebbels said “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”

Dr.Goebbels was eventually defeated…

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive

@Its the same argument I have made repeatedly, even in Pakistan there are some criminal terrorist elements that the Pakistan Army is fighting. Those terrorist intend to cause maximum damage here as well, but our society rejects them.”
—Posted by Umairpk

—-I have seen minimal signs of rejection of terrorists that operate against India. I have seen whats over coming from you. I recall you have been asked to condemn anti-India terrorists as terrorist and we heard deafening silencing from your side.

Rather I recall you saying about what happened was an effort by Muslims to fix what is going wrong against them. Feel free to correct me.

Now do not extrapolate that as anti-Islam. I personally have opposed Iraqi innocents dying in large numbers by unnecessary invasion. I am sure many non-Muslims (Muslims) share my view. Wjat bothers me is reluctance from people like you. You have no courage to call a terrorist as a terrorist unless Pakistanis or some Muslims are dying.

Let us cut this BS—all that all humans are equal bla bla…who cares what is written in a book,,,,what matters is what is being practiced.

Sir, you do not practice.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive

Why is it that comments I post are not being passed through? uggh..Reuters.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

I will put up two historical incidents:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristallnac ht
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Gojra_ riots

Consider the majority ethnic group attitudes involved in both those incidences. It becomes clear that there are some disturbing parallels.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

Just compare Kristallnacht and the Gojra riots on Wikipedia.

Just like then (with the Holocaust), the authorities stand aside and let the mobs do their dirty work. Just like then, officials themselves instigate the majority ethnic group by slandering them or trumping up charges or playing to grievances. Just like the then the government seeks to make the minorities less equal.

And just like then the authorities never prosecuted or punished those who perpetrated these heinous crimes.

There’s way too many unfortunate parallels between the incidences and where Pakistani society is heading today.

There’s more.

Just like Nazi Germany, Pakistan today is lagging behind its neighbours economically. Just like Pakistanis blame India for all their problems and cite historical grievances, Hitler trumped up the problems of the Alsace-Lorraine (their Kashmir) with the French and blamed the Treaty of Versailles for all of Germany’s problems. He also painted minorities as subversive elements (like how Christians and Hindus are viewed in Pakistan today). And just like how Pakistanis use hatred against India to unite them, Hitler unified the German people by encouraging a narrative of German victimhood and an adversarial mentality against non-Germans.

And just like Sunnis in Pakistan today, Hitler made sure that every German knew that they were superior and the ‘master race’. He passed laws delegitimizing and eventually dehumanizing the Jews. He pursued social change that engrained the dehumanization of Jews in the German mindset…..etc….

Oh there’s way too many unfortunate parallels. And I bring them up because I am sincerely alarmed at the direction this country is heading with respect to the treatment of minorities.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

Here’s the links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristallnac ht

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Gojra_ riots

There are striking parallels between the majority ethnic group attitudes from 1930s Nazi Germany and Pakistan today.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

Kristallnacht:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristallnacht

The Gojra riots:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Gojra_riots

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

Keith

When you have a country of 170 million people, meagre resources, minimal investment in education, this is what you get. Your attempt to equate Pakistan with Nazi Germany does not help anything. Do not try to potray things incorrectly.
South Africa is a country with alarming levels of violent crime, 50 murders, 200 rapes per day and so on. Still FIFA World Cup is taking place there, because they worked hard to organize the event and got themselves ready for it.
Point to make is, Pakistan needs to invest in education, with peace with India, cut down defense spending, increase healthcare for all. Strengthen civil institutions, judiciary, media etc.
Pakistan has its problem just like any other country, you can compare us to Nazi Germany or whatever, its your problem not our. I don’t say conditions for minorities are perfect here, but when you have problems at hand, you don’t look for magical lamp to correct things in a moment. There is a need to constantly work and build a better society.

You missed my point again and again.

ANSWER MY DAMN QUESTION:
1. How many Sunni Mosques were attacked by terrorists?
2. How many sunnis have lost lives here in terror strikes?
3. List Sunni clerics who were killed by religious fanatics because they opposed extremism, suicide attacks?

Compare above losses to the losses suffered by Ahmedis? There is a reason why former PM Nawaz Sharif called Ahmedis as “brothers” and “sisters” and an “asset” for Pakistan.

Bottomline, Sunnis or Pakistanis at large do not suffer from any superiority complex. Pakistanis all of them, Muslims, christians, hindus, and all sects, Sunnis, Shias, Ahmedi, Ismaili or whatever face a same threat.

You missed one more point, which I stated again and again.
Terrorists or religious fanatics will kill anyone who does not agree with their version of Islam and how they define it. I don’t seem to understand what part of this you are unable to understand.

I only hope you get over your obsession with Kristallnacht, seriously it even sounds like a disgusting word.

Posted by Umairpk | Report as abusive

Umair,

You obviously don’t understand history, historical parallels and my point.

Obviously Pakistan is not Nazi Germany. However, that does not mean there are no historical parallels.

You bring up the point about attacking Sunnis. So what? You think the the Nazis only went after Jews? They killed a lot of regular Germans too.

And so what if more Sunnis got killed. The Sunnis are 16 times the population of the Ahmadis. Can you show me a single attack in Pakistan’s history when 1600 Sunnis were killed specifically for practising the Sunni faith?

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

As for Kristallnacht. The reasons that’s significant is because most people would consider a seminal moment that really indicated the end of any semblance of tolerance in Germany for the Jews. It basically signalled the prelude to holocaust.

It’s hard to tell if this attack on the Ahmadiyyat is on par with that. But I hope that in 5-10 years we don’t look back on this incident as the seminal moment indicating the end of tolerance for minorities in Pakistan.

As for your attitude, I am sure the Germans of the day didn’t think Kristallnacht was such a significant historical incident either.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

@”Its the same argument I have made repeatedly, even in Pakistan there are some criminal terrorist elements”
Posted by Umairpk

I think you misinterpreted my “wing nut job” remark. Here’s the difference between right wing nut jobs, that I talked about & the radical elements that you’re talking about. These right wing nut jobs are mostly radio talk show hosts (mostly in southern US), who have no criminal records & who do not incite violence or hatered against any ethnic minority or any other group. The most they ever do is blabber some nonsense like this Berry fellow did, in order to create controversy & get their ratings higher. The radical elements that you’re talking about, are butchering children, women & others at will in markets, schools & places of worship. BIG DIFFERENCE!

@”Those terrorist intend to cause maximum damage here as well, but our society rejects them.”

That’s the troublesome part, your society does NOT overwhelmingly reject these radical elements even after the havoc & mayhem they have been unleashing in your country for the last few years. As per a recent survey termed as “Radicalization of Pakistan”, app. 38% of all respondents indicated that they sypathized with these extremist elements and believed that they were fighting for Islam while 14% said that they weren’t sure. That’s a huge number & a really worrisome sign for things to come.

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

As per a recent survey termed as “Radicalization of Pakistan”, app. 38% of all respondents indicated that they sypathized

Posted by Mortal1
===

Mortal, that 38% are those who openly admitted their belief systems to the interviewer. The real numbers are even higher….

Nothing else illustrates this better than a news item on the day pakistani terrorist Kasab was convicted for Mumbai attack.

This was in Dawn…the villagers in Kasab’s home town said, Kasab “may have gone with good intentions”…and we cannot belive what the infidels say…

This on a citizen of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan captured on live camera wielding AK-47 rifle shooting at unarmed passengers at a train station in a neighboring country!

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive

@Seekeroftruth, Mortal,

It seems that extremism and militantism is there to stay in Pakistan, it appears to be politically popular with most of the people. That is why Pakistan will continue to remain a a festering carcass of terrorism, much to the migraine of the world.

Despite what Umair says, most Paks don’t care less for Kaffirs and therefore most will not empathize with Indians for what Kasab did.

It appears Pak Army did a v. good job of radicalizing the culture, this to ensure its own business motto. If the ever escalating violence in the cities is any indication, the future of Pakistani is going somewhere just north of hell and radicalism will grow, more Paks will seek to leave Pakistan.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

Umairpk,

All talk of being victims of terrorism, terrorists do not discriminate between Sunnis, Shia etc is total BS, especially in Pakistan. Look at what your own government establishment is engaged in:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37665955/ns/ world_news-south_and_central_asia/

The same thing is there in BBC website as well.

Your military, your ISI and your civilian government are hand in glove with militants, call them Taliban or whatever. We all knew this all along. But the above report is based on extensive research providing evidence. Pakistan was cleverly evading evidence. Now there is blatant mention of “duplicity.”

So long as your countrymen do not follow double dealing and backstabbing methods, your country is going to keep on burning. The US is losing its patience. It might simply escalate the chaos inside Pakistan through CIA and make it spin out of control. Keeping the fire in Pakistan alive might help keeping Afghanistan safe. Kashmir, for the past two years has been relatively quiet as all your elements have been put on a back burner with your military engaging your own militant offshoots. When forest fires spread, one of the techniques used is to deflect it off and confine it so that it does not burn residential neighborhoods. I think the US might go in that direction. A Pakistan which refuses to co-operate might be better off burning within. Ahmadiya’s massacre might have been staged to trigger more chaos inside Pakistan. Tell your military brothers to clean up. Time is running out.

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

“So long as your countrymen do not follow double dealing and backstabbing methods, your country is going to keep on burning.”

It should read “So long as your countrymen follow double dealing and backstabbing methods, your country is going to keep on burning.”

Posted by KPSingh01 | Report as abusive

The attack on a non-muslim minority such as this one sparked world-wide criticism on Pakistan and its treatment of minorities. Why does the world turn a blind eye to the atrocities took place in the name of War against terror?? who is to be held accountable for drone attacks in tribal areas of PAkistan and civilian casualties in Afghanistan?? Why does the world not recall the tragic and brutal killing of Muslims arising out of Gujrat riots back in 2001?? Such a biased mindset of the world allows space for the reactionaries to strike back with veangeance—Ahmadis have a right to live freely in Pakistan but they must avoid trying to justify their status as being a muslim minority.

Posted by USamaAhmed | Report as abusive

USamaAhmed,

Nice try. The world does not turn a blind eye to atrocities that have taken place in the War on Terror. The reason you know about them is because the Western media itself covers them. Western NGOs and human rights groups criticize western governments who do abuse human rights. And voters in the West vote out governments who abuse human rights.

All that counts as turning a blind eye? Cut the crap. Pakistanis as using any and every incident of human rights failures in the West to justify atrocities against minorities in Pakistan that are far out of proportion to anything that’s happened in the West. It’s absolutely disgusting that Pakistanis seek to divert attention from the plight of minorities using such a tactic.

As for the Ahmadis…your comments and mentality says it all. Does it matter if they claim to be a Muslim minority? And if they do try to “justify their status as a muslim minority” is that worthy of violence against them and even death? It makes me nauseous that you think so lowly of other human beings.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

@kEiThZ,

You watch Keithz, the U.S. starts to get more desperate to see success from the Af-Pak mission, the U.S. will get more desperate and more bold to act unilaterally on Pakistani soil and in doing so, will further push N.Waziristan missions and eventually into heartland Pakistan. Once the S. Punjab militants start turning towards Af-Pak mission to counter the west, that is when the U.S. will start making more and more bold incursions into heartland territory, perhaps even into some remote parts of Punjab…By then, the populated parts of Pak will be in a state of much greater dysfunctionality and chaos. With the NATO sitting in Pakistan, casting a large shadow, you can start seeing rich Pakistani’s making greater and greater exodus’s into UK, CANADA and USA. By then immigration policies may shut them out, if right winger governments are in power.

I for one am very curious to see if the untrained Urban Police and PA are willing to take on the S. Punjabi Militants in urban warfare. Either way, it will be one hell of a ride, as the Drone targeting increases many fold.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

@USamaAHmed

Don’t feel bad Ahmed, your are not being singled out, most of you Pakistani’s never answer the tough questions, you either change the topic, reply with another diversionary question to highlight the fictitious victimhood of Paks, or don’t answer at all.

I will be an old man with great grandchildren before even one Pak admits that their Army did the systematic mass extermination 1971 genocide of 3million, that is of course, if Pak survives as a current territory and does not disintegrate.

With the way that news travels today with the internet and cell phones, facebook twitter and such it is unlikely that PA will ever try to repeat such a human tragedy.

There enlightened people like Nadeem Paracha, but the remaining collective mentality is on a collision course to disintegration. The current mindset will not nurture cohesiveness and stability.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

Why does the world not recall the tragic and brutal killing of Muslims arising out of Gujrat riots back in 2001??
Posted by USamaAhmed

=====

Gujarat riots were wrong, most Indians have condemned them, and lobbied to prevent the CM of that state to get even a visa to enter USA. However, Pakistani army generals who nurture and sponsor terrorist organizations like LeT that produce Ajmal Kasab wear shiny suits and pose to be “secular” leaders and hobnob with westerners in world capitals creating a fake impression.

In 1946, Mr. Jinnah told a stunned British Cabinet Mission “Minorities will be hostages in India and Pakistan” meaning Hindus will be hostages in Pakistan and Muslims will be hostages in India, and this will ensure good behavior on both sides (Source- Indian muslim historian Rafiq Zakaria)

There were 15-20% hindus in present day pakistan pre-1947? where are these hostages?!! Nowhere to be found….The invisible miniscule Hindu minority in pakistan becomes visible only when there is a news item about a bunch of them getting forcibly converted to Islam…..

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive

After (almost) eliminating the hindu minority, you are rioting on the miniscule christian minority,,,and looking for new kafirs….you talk about India??

Once again you clarify to everyone why pakistan is here where it is..

Posted by Seekeroftruth | Report as abusive

@kEiThZ– Dear, the role of NGOs in my country has always been pre-determined and controversial that is what makes me sceptical of all this Human rights hue and cry..these western-funded NGOS never uttered a word of protest against drone attacks and recent target-killings backed by different political groups in Karachi…Did they(NGOS)every really stand up against the atrocities of ISrael ensuring some practical steps for that matter?
Western media and Human rights activists dint give much importance to the recent Isarael’s ferocious attack on “Freedom Flotilla” carrying aid for Palistine..did they? doesnt it count as turning a blind eye of the West to the human lives? or the people falling victim to atrocities in Palistine, Afghanistan, and Pakistan(drone attacks) are lesser human beings?
I dont condone attacks on “Ahamdis” neither do i consider them lesser human beings..but we muslims expect them to acknowledge their status of a “non-muslim’ minority just like Chiristians, Hindus, and others to live freely and rightfully in the society…Ahamadis themselves invite danger–No Jew, Christian, or Hindu would ever allow any outsider to tarnish their respective religions–Why do u want Muslims to allow any such infiltration??

Posted by USamaAhmed | Report as abusive

@ “Western media and Human rights activists dint give much importance to the recent Isarael’s ferocious attack on “Freedom Flotilla” carrying aid for Palistine..did they?” Posted by USamaAhmed

YES, They absolutely did! I live in the US & every news channel I know of covered the incident extensively & it was overwhelmingly condemned as well.

@ “Ahamadis themselves invite danger–No Jew, Christian, or Hindu would ever allow any outsider to tarnish their respective religions–Why do u want Muslims to allow any such infiltration??”

That pretty mush says it all about your attitude towards the Ahmadis. So, to what extent are you willing to go, to disallow “infiltration” by Ahmadis? Butchering them by the hundreds, in their place of worship?

Posted by Mortal1 | Report as abusive

Dear–There wasnt any breaking news on BBC or CNN as the Isarali commandos raided the ship–Hours after the incident, they reported it with no special concern whatsoever.
I say it again that Ahamdis have a right to live freely in our society but they must not portray themselves as the torch-bearers of Islam..They should accept their ‘non-muslim minority’ status.
Nobody(of any faith) under the sun allows the intrusion of an outsider who has nothing to do with his faith–
Plz dont tarnish the image of our religion by preaching the false teachings of Mirza in the name of Islam–
Nobody attacks u unless u attack him–Ahmadis have been disreputing Islam and Muslims across the world for so long..
you are allowed to worship and practice ur faith but never in the name of Islam.

Posted by USamaAhmed | Report as abusive

@USamaAhmed

“Dear–There wasnt any breaking news on BBC or CNN as the Isarali commandos raided the ship–Hours after the incident, they reported it with no special concern whatsoever.”

Pack of lies. CNN covered the departure of the ship. And the subsequent raid. It wasn’t just a side item. They interrupted coverage of the Gulf Coast Oil Spill watch to cover it. And I can’t see the BBC covering it differently. I remember the coverage since I watch CNN regularly.

You’d just like to believe that the Western Media doesn’t cover stories concerning. Just because you believe it, does not make it true.

–”Ahmadis have been disreputing Islam and Muslims across the world for so long..
you are allowed to worship and practice ur faith but never in the name of Islam.”

And for that they deserve to die?

You are skirting the question. In your opinion, if they violate this rule, what should be the punishment? Can you give us straight answer without trying to evade the question like a snake?

Do Ahmadis deserve to die for claiming to be Muslims? Yes or no?

BTW, do you even watch CNN or the BBC.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

When they preach under the banner of Islam, they not only violate their constitutional limitations and responsibilities but ignite the sensibilities of Muslims as well.
There will be no reaction or anti-Ahmadi sentiment once they discontinue to portray themselves as being a muslim sect..It goes without saying that Ahmadis are non-muslim because anyone who does not accept Muhammad(SAW) to be the final prophet of Allah is out of the fold of Islam.
Ya..their punishment is this similar to that of a rebel. Stop exploiting the name of Islam unlike ur Mirza(false Massiah-Maud) and nobody will do any harm to u–live freely and rightfully accepting ur ‘non-muslim’ status!

Posted by USamaAhmed | Report as abusive

At least in this latest post you’ve stopped talking about Western media coverage. You went from saying there was none, to saying it wasn’t sufficient, to quietly dropping this deceptive line of reasoning. Doesn’t your religion say anything about honesty? Or is that only reserved for Muslims?

“When they preach under the banner of Islam, they not only violate their constitutional limitations and responsibilities but ignite the sensibilities of Muslims as well.”

Praying in their own mosques, counts as preaching?

“Ya..their punishment is this similar to that of a rebel.”

Praying to Allah equals an offence on par with treason?

So let me get this straight…you think they deserve to dies for praying to same God that you pray to.

“Stop exploiting the name of Islam unlike ur Mirza(false Massiah-Maud) and nobody will do any harm to u–live freely and rightfully accepting ur ‘non-muslim’ status!”

Right. So even if they pray to Allah, you have an issue with the prophet they say is the last one. So tell me, who’s more important, Allah or the prophet? Which one do you pray to?

The problem obviously is that Ahmadis just haven’t accepted their status as second class citizens in Pakistan.

So I guess you’ll keep killing them until they do?

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

Forgot this gem:

“When they preach under the banner of Islam, they not only violate their constitutional limitations and responsibilities but ignite the sensibilities of Muslims as well.”

Who cares what the Koran says about people who pray to the same God. Who cares what the Koran says about killing people. And who cares what the Koran says about protecting minority populations.

The Constitution of Pakistan obviously trumps the Koran. If the Ahmadiyyat violate the Constitution, then its okay to even disobey the Koran and punish them. After all, what better Muslim is there, then the one who follows the Constitution of Pakistan!

As for the sensibilities of Muslims….let’s get it straight, it’s only the sensibilities of Pakistanis involved. Ahmadis are being butchered with as much fervour anywhere else. And Pakistani sensitivities are such, that they think they know better Allah what judgement should be meted out on those who pray to him, right?

Gotta love the sensibilities of Pakistanis. What makes more sense than killing woman and children for….praying. Your tolerance knows no bound. Allah must be proud he created you.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

Keithz said:

“The Constitution of Pakistan obviously trumps the Koran”

–>If this is true, some of these application of some Pak laws are blasphemousically contrary to the teachings of the Koran and essentially, rendering the Pakistani practices in many ways unislamic….

Imagine that…an Islamic country practicing in a way that is unislamic…it appears that some Pakistani Islamic sensibilities in Pakistan are blind to their own created Koranic contraventions.

This is a topic all its own, if you want to discuss “morals and dogma”.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

Let us express our sadness and sympathise with the victims. The State is responsible to protect its citizens, without involving the military. This is the police task or for the Nationa Guard. Bhuttos are highly charged emotional people but always believed in pragmatism which has brought them personal sufferings. I do not meen to upset the friends of Indians, but the facts are that both countries leaders have not been able to deal with their main stream citizens in a civilised manner and had to call on the military to suppress the demonstrations and violence. The Pakistan military at the outset refused to follow the orders of the civilian Govt. and decided to introduce the martial law and set up a military rule. The Indian military recognised their limitations and have hitherto refrained from introducing the military rule. Pakistan military elites have never realised that although sincere in their mind had a very limited knowledge of running a country. So what is the solution for Pakistan problems, leaving aside the false accusations by those who have no sympathy with Pakistan but are now used to accusing Pakistan world miseries. Pakistan currently has very weak civil Govt. and the military is still in parallel trying to operate at the behest of foreign Govt. and in consequence the lawlessness in the country. So one must be allowed to ask a question, as to who is responsible for the destabilisation of the sub-continent. How on earth Pakistan alone can handle with the resistance groups including Kashmir, the so called Talibans and several other faceless groups wandering about in central asia and the hindukush mountains. How on erarth the Govt. allows the logistics for the NATO forces transporting by road from the port to Afghanistan the armoured vehicles, explosives and other heavy war materials. On top of that the Govt. needs to undo the illegal legislations against the home grown minorities who are being criminaly discriminated within their own country. My advise would be to consult the neighbouring India, whose leaders who are the master of expertise in dealing with chaos and ethnic divide and maintaining the civilian rule with ofcourse the military support and couple with the organised vast migration of its people to the foreign countries. Perhaps Pakistan has to go for the secular state like India and intriduce the scheduled caste system. This is not a joke but a practical alternative solution for a chaos which the world would even tolerate. Pakistan could learn a lot in this from India, and the foreign Pundits would stop forecasting the date of declaring Pakistan as a failed state. Let the Canadian Govt. handle the Pakistani immigrants with their Snow and vast empty country. The vast land is almost empty with only 35 million odd citizens and the land bigger than the USA.
Let us refrain from comparing this episode with the sufferings of Jews in Europe or suffering of the American Indians in the concentration camps. Also the Arabs sufferings in AbuGhareb and the Guetanamo Bay or the Bhagram are exceptions in the history of the humans.
Rex Minor

Posted by pakistan | Report as abusive

I have met some Ahamdis who preach their false teachings under the cloak of “Islam”. Watch ur channels on youtube to know how u people delude simple-minded people in the name of “Islam”.Ur Jammat entices poverty-stricken and ignorant people to embrace Ahmadiyat by different methods mainly through economic incentives..right? doesnt it count as preaching?
Ur very religion(Created by a damented man)is based on lies, fabrications, and treachery..isnt it? dont argue on this point or i will prove it all with speacial refrences to the “Holy books of Mirza and his false claims of being a Messiah-o-Maud”;)
My religion teaches tolerance and respect towards other faiths. I respect every single religion on earth except for “Ahamdiyat”. Why?? because u people distort and exploit my religion. Dont use the name “Islam”..Do whatever in the name of “Ahamdiyat” and nobody will have any reservation…
Our religion, Quran, Hadiths allow us to wage war(jihad)against any such forces(Ahamadiyat) who are out to malign Islam just like Hazrat Abu Bakar(RA) fought against the false claimants of Prophethood–
I dont say indiscriminate killings of Ahamdis is justified. But any Ahamdi who spreads his Mirza’s deception in the name of Islam should be treated with absolute contempt and force!
I hope u will make out of what i m trying to say for once.Plus, u Ahmadis dont sound good talking about Islam;) becoz Islam and Ahmadiyat are two different things. Lets talk about ur Pious Messiah-o-Maud and his teachings..:p

Posted by USamaAhmed | Report as abusive

USamaAhmed says:

“I dont say indiscriminate killings of Ahamdis is justified. But any Ahamdi who spreads his Mirza’s deception in the name of Islam should be treated with absolute contempt and force!”

–>It is nice to see that Pakistani’s as a people preach violence and love in the same breath with a clear conscience, because most normal people in this world don’t.

I tell you, if there were more Ahmadis, more Ismailis and such, there would be so much less islamic radicalization and violence. You cannot stop other Islamic sects from growing and spreading, if their views are touching someone’s heart, that is their choice and you cannot stop it by any force, in fact the killing of Ahmadis’ have made their creed much more powerful than you can imagine and done great damage to the image of Sunni’s in Pakistan and your own words portray you as supremecist, exclusionary and just playing word games.

For the sake of not looking so horrible and cruel, some of you Sunni’s will say almost anything, using word games. On one hand you will say resist with absolute contempt and force, on the other hand you will say you don’t justify indiscriminate killing…does that mean that you justify discriminate killing? Reading between your words, I think silently and quietly, from a political point of view, you in the relgious political majority don’t care how you decrease the numbers of minorities or other muslim sects, as long as your side wins, through intimidation, force, conversion, co-ersion, one-sided laws and the use of militants.

You cannot stop a popular political view from spreading and taking a life of its own. Since you cannot stop it, what do you do…goto war with every one who you do not agree with? Do you think Allah would want Islam to become a religion of political violence and infighting in Pakistan? Because, that is what will fragment pakistan, religous exclusivism and supremacy.

With every violent act against minorities, and even people like you quietly justifying it, you will strengthen the resolve and in fact increase the numbers of these groups, you cannot stop it, it is guaranteed to increase..is violence the answer? is that the kind of country you want?

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

Rex Minor says:

“Let the Canadian Govt. handle the Pakistani immigrants with their Snow and vast empty country. The vast land is almost empty with only 35 million odd citizens and the land bigger than the USA.”

–>No…that is not going to happen. There is no politician that will win the hearts of voters, by opening the flood gates to any and every Pakistani. Politically this is extremely unpopular and like committing political suicide, pandering to countries that proliferate terrorism and people who have trouble integrating. And even if the CDN gov’t did this, would Canada not just become another “nightmare” for immigrants? Within years you would have Pakistani ghettos, as you do in the UK…with politically radicalized and violent youth committing terrorism….NO THANK YOU…canada is doing just fine without this type of thing.

Immigrants from any country who are board certifiable, who have good english, some cash, employability, ability to pay taxes, be integratable with others, are productive, politically neutral and those who will proclaim themselves to be patriotic Canadians first above all and leave their foibles behind are the ones that are preferred by the voters in Canada. CDN’s are not looking to have something taking away from their selves, but are looking to have distinctiveness and uniqueness added, always.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

@USamaAhmed,

BTW, I do not think there is any incentive in Pakistan to protect minorities, especially Islamic minorities, that being Shias..Ahmadi’s and Ismail’s….so why should there be any justice against these “non-muslims”…the perpetrators…from the media, to the firebrand mullahs to the politicians…all of them will have to pay no crime for uttering threats of death and violence against these victims. They committed no true crime, except a religious and political one…those kind of crimes that are used to ignite passions of violence against minorities and those who are weaker.

On top of all that,…you expect Canada to accept immigrants from the Pakistani’ majority who quietly accept and allow this type of violence against minorities…why would another host country want people who truly do not have a conscience for certain things?

As I said earlier in my earlier posts..Pakistan has done a great job defining what a muslim is…just not a great job defining what a human being is…think about that for a second, because without a proper definition for what a human being is, the abscence of this opens up all sorts of defiling and violent actions and human rights abuses against minorities. In this regard, Pakistan by its stance on minorities is a human rights abuser, in my opinion.

Secular, democratic countries like Canada, US, UK value the human being above religion, race, creed or any other label. To be any other way, is unsecular, undemocratic and uncompatible. The line has to be drawn somewhere.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

USamaAhmed,

There used to be a mosque near my university in Toronto. Students would pass it as they exited the subway station. They had a giant banner that said “Follow Jesus. Be a Muslim.”

Now by your logic, these Sunni Muslims deserve to be lynched (and maybe even killed), because they are attempting to deceive the mostly Christian population of Toronto.

Luckily for them, Canadians are far more sensible than Pakistanis when it comes to religious tolerance and tolerance of preaching.

So, do you think what the Sunni Muslim students did at my university was correct? If yes, then how is the preaching of Ahmadis different? And if no, do you think the Muslims preaching at my university, deserve to get lynched or killed?

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

@RexMinor:

@I almost thought that the Pakistan Army took the Bengali civilians as prisoners and kept them in a Guetanamo or AbuGhareb type prisons and totured them before eliminating them. The word holocaust is used by the historians for six million jews. the NBC video is very weak.”

@Issue#1. 1971 genocide of Bengalis by W. Pakistan
Don’t you think you are trying to be too cute for a sensitive issue like a genocide like that happened in 1971 or are you saying that did not happen or are you saying the world is making it up. Coming from you, a man who advocates no war. You are insulting the victims.

Why bring rest of the history? I do not see Westerner bringing out Bangladesh genocide to distract from AbhuGhareb or G’bay. Ask yourself who exposed them–Westerner journalists.

NOW Can you make a clear statement…..whether Pakistan did do genocide in 1971 or not? By saying No, are you saying that Pakistan journalists who apologized for the genocide were misled and suddenly you know all the truth. Yeah sure PA never apologized. Inadvertently, you are a perfect supporter of PA.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive

RexMinor

Issue#2
Taliban: I asked you earlier also and did not hear from you.

You say Taliban (your Dear “Eagles”) are resisting foreign power and once the aggressors are gone, Taliban will stop that bloodshed. Now tell us in context of pre-9/11 Afghanistan when Taliban was a proxy of Pakistan and hosting terrorists, whom were they resisting in Afghanistan by killing innocents and tribal chiefs. Yes the nature of killings was different since they ruled that time. Instead of suicide bombers, it was open killings in soccer stadiums.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive

Umair,

What is happening US,Canada or elsewhere in Europe, is not my concern, I am more concerned acts of terror committed by a section of Pakistani society in the name of islam and its effect on India, brutal massacre of innocent people in the name of religion , 26/11 Mumbai attack and countless similar attacks on Indian soil by Pakistanis.

If Muslims are persecuted in Europe, US, Canada, Muslims are free to leave these countries , they have gone there of their own choice , not for the love of these countries , if they find the situation becoming difficult, they are free to leave these countries .
To conclude, Pakistani society is brutal , full of religious fanatics and religious hatred . It is time that international community must ostracize Pakistanis.

Posted by manishindia | Report as abusive

Its not a violence-preaching statement at all. Preaching of other religions in Islamic countries is a crime punishable by death. When Ahamdis preach their religion using the name of Islam, they break the law.Quite simply, when you break a certain law u pose urself liable to punishment. The only way to escape punishment is to abide by the law instead of trying to legitimize the crime itself. Why dont Ahamdis understand this?
Ahamdis cannot preach in Pakistan just as Christians, Hinddus, and others by law. Ahamdis tend to oppose this law vehemently forgetting the fact that they were given full time and freedom to speak against the enactment of this law. Because after various assembly sessions(full of heated debates) they were declared a “non-muslim” minority.
They could not prove themselves as muslims in the light of Quran/Ahdith nor were they able to justify Mirza Ghulam’s position as a prophet and promised Messiah.
i dont defend their killings but surely i will defend any legal action against their covert preachings even if it be death sentence.
If only Ahamadis had not their covert agendas to pursue in this country, there would have been no such violence or radicalization. Why dont u people stop nurturing ur intrests often through preachings and coaxing. DO it first, and nobody will inflict his rage on u .
Law-breaking is a serious crime and every Ahamdi commits this crime to further his religious gains in this country.

Posted by USamaAhmed | Report as abusive

“There used to be a mosque near my university in Toronto. Students would pass it as they exited the subway station. They had a giant banner that said “Follow Jesus. Be a Muslim”
Dear, dont intermingle two different things. Muslims never threathen Christianity by claiming to be part of it unlike Ahmadis. To muslims, Essa(AS) is a venerable holy man and theres a recurrent mention of Him in Quran. for example, if a christian man goes to attend them, these muslims wont potray themselves as “Muslim Christians” or with any other self-coined term like Ahmadis do. They would say obviously “Islam and christianity are two separate religions and it shall never infuriate the Christians.
The preaching of Ahamdis raises concerns for they befool people by defining themselves as Muslims. And this is what brings Muslims into clash with Ahamdis.

Posted by USamaAhmed | Report as abusive

“Ahamdis cannot preach in Pakistan just as Christians, Hinddus, and others by law.”

Bravo, wonderful…keep it up!!

“i dont defend their killings but surely i will defend any legal action against their covert preachings even if it be death sentence.

If anyone ever badly needed a time machine, its you.

Posted by Seth09 | Report as abusive

Its not a violence-preaching statement at all. Preaching of other religions in Islamic countries is a crime punishable by death. – USamaAhmed

Good thing for those chaps near my alma mater, that the West isn’t as “enlightened” as the Muslim world, eh?

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

“i dont defend their killings but surely i will defend any legal action against their covert preachings even if it be death sentence.”

So you don’t defend the killings, but you think it’s okay if they get killed?

Wait till you meet your maker, I am sure Allah will want to know how it is that people like you think its okay to do Allah’s job and judge who should live and who should be killed. You don’t even have any humility about you in your opinion. How wise you must be to have more wisdom than Allah about god’s own creation.

“If only Ahamadis had not their covert agendas to pursue in this country, there would have been no such violence or radicalization. ”

[b] So those people praying to Allah, were preaching at the time they were killed? [/b]

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

“Dear, dont intermingle two different things. Muslims never threathen Christianity by claiming to be part of it unlike Ahmadis”

Really? So those chaps with the banner eluding to Jesus being Muslim were just trying to be cute?

By the way that mosque was half filled with Sunni Muslim Pakistanis.

“The preaching of Ahamdis raises concerns for they befool people by defining themselves as Muslims”

So Pakistani Sunnis either lack the faith or are too stupid to know the difference between Ahmadi and Sunni practices? Are Pakistanis really that bad at practising Islam?

What does it say about Sunni Islam in Pakistan that it is so worried about conversion that it has to kill off competing sects?

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

All bloggers, Pak diaspora “honor” killings on rise in Canada.

http://www.calgaryherald.com/news/Standi ng+Aqsa+Canada+honour+killing+case/31687 28/story.html

–>I know most people in Pakistan do not condone these, but these things should not happen when people immigrate to other countries, they should seek to redefine themselves outside a context of their homeland, rather and re-affirm old ways of thinking.

Things like these, make it bad for all immigrants. Western societies cannot be blamed for reporting such things.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

Keithz said:

“Dear, dont intermingle two different things. Muslims never threathen Christianity by claiming to be part of it unlike Ahmadis”

Really? So those chaps with the banner eluding to Jesus being Muslim were just trying to be cute?

By the way that mosque was half filled with Sunni Muslim Pakistanis.

“The preaching of Ahamdis raises concerns for they befool people by defining themselves as Muslims”

So Pakistani Sunnis either lack the faith or are too stupid to know the difference between Ahmadi and Sunni practices? Are Pakistanis really that bad at practising Islam?

What does it say about Sunni Islam in Pakistan that it is so worried about conversion that it has to kill off competing sects?”

–>Pakistani’s have done a great job defining what a muslim is, that being, only Sunni Muslims are allowed in the land of the “Pure”, others need not apply.

Pakistan has yet to define what constitutes a human being and is in contravention with the universal charter of human rights set forth by the UN.

Spiritually pure and clean indeed, in the pursuit of cleanliness in Pakistan, minorities and Kaffirs are given diminished legal status and competing Islamic sects are declared as being non-muslims, all with the final philosophical goal of keeping Pakistan “pure”, that being purely Sunni, everyone else can eat scraps, die, convert, repent, stay quiet or just plain die, if they do not like it.

“Its not a violence-preaching statement at all. Preaching of other religions in Islamic countries is a crime punishable by death. – USamaAhmed

Good thing for those chaps near my alma mater, that the West isn’t as “enlightened” as the Muslim world, eh?”

–>This comment by USamaAhmed, is extremely troubling and disturbing and alludes to a hateful, racist, exclusionary, facist, and violence promoting.

@UmairPk, do you agree with USamaAhmed’s comments? Yes or no will do, please refrain from befuddling and non answering the question.

@Keithz,

This funny comment by USamaAhmed, on one hand he asks for Canada to take more Pakistani’s, on the other hand he declares death against those who preach other religions in Pakistan, I wonder how he feels if western countries did the same to remain pure? but they have not, in fact the opposite and not one Pakistani is grateful for secular societies in Europe, USA, UK, where there are mosq

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

@Keithz,

Little to do with religion, sometimes it seems that not all, but much of Pakistani culture is psychologically warped and deranged, especially when I see diaspora planning terrorist attacks on Americans, doing honor killings and Pak citizens claiming death the right to persecute minorities. Land of the pure?….surely pure…but perhaps this purity needs to be redefined and put on paper….Purely Pakistani Sunni?

I am left gasping, speechless and at times feeling nauseated.

Every lame excuse under the sun is used by Pakistanis to explain way their reasonings for violence, double dealing duplicity, racism, terrorism, hatred, blame….

I think sometimes your previous posted comment is right…is this not what Hitler wanted…a pure land? If the people there are not talking and acting like facists what other description can you call it? \

USamaAhmed’s comment is no different thant he comments made by NAZI Germans against Jews. The parallels are stark.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

@G-W

I have been following the Aqsa Parvez case with much interest. What a beautiful young girl. What a tragedy. How barbaric do you have to be to kill your own daughter or sister?

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/crime/ar ticle/824453–shameful-horrible-evil-and- barbaric

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/crime/ar ticle/824133–i-killed-my-daughter-with-m y-hands

Apparently she was killed for having non-Muslim friends (nearly all female I believe) and wanting to wear jeans and a T-shirt and go to the mall.

…and the mother thought the abuse was okay, because she thought they were “only going to break her hands and legs.” Wow.

I don’t understand why such people immigrate. Wouldn’t they be better off in Pakistan, where the guy could get away with abusing (or even killing) his daughters with virtually no consequences? If you are that much of a neanderthal, why come to Canada?

It’s unfortunate they only got 18 years and not life. Anyway, I am sure they’ll have a fine time in prison given that child murders are considered the lowest of the low even among criminals.

And I am sure some day when he’s face to face with Allah, he’ll able to explain how his honour was worth more than one of Allah’s creations.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

Cases like the Aqsa Parvez murder (I despise the term honour killing. There’s nothing honourable about killing your daughter or sister or cousin or wife.) offer some disturbing thoughts to ponder. If Sunni Muslim Pakistanis are willing to kill their own daughters and sisters for behaviour they consider to be “unislamic” (obviously they are better judges of Islamic behaviour than Allah – no compulsion in faith…yeah right), then how much concern can they have for minorities who don’t even follow Islam or their version of Islam to begin with?

I don’t consider Aqsa Parvez’s murder to be indicative solely of Pakistani chauvinism. In truth, we’ve seen similar gender abuse issues among all South Asian communities in Canada. That said, it really is particularly bad among Pakistani migrants. They seem to be much worse than the rest. There’s got to be a reason for that.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

@Keithz,

With regards to honour killings, the commonwealth can easily put an end to these….stop immigration of peoples who indulge in this behavior.

So called honour killings underscore a much bigger problem, that being an incompatible system of core values that clash with modern humanity, clash with secularity, clash with democracy, freedom and rights of the individual.

I completely agree with you, if one chooses to do honour killings, complain about western countries being unfair, while collecting welfare, getting free healthcare and a host of other social things, why bother coming here, stay in your country where you can pray, kill, complain and do what ever you like.

There are dozens upon dozens of Pakistani honour killings in the commonwealth. A few years ago, there was also a “moderate” NY Pakistani radio show host who beheaded his wife because she was divorcing him, refer to link:

http://islaminaction08.blogspot.com/2009  /02/nymoderate-muslim-leader-beheads-wi fe.html

Meet “Hassan” the head hunter. He apparently ran a moderate radio show, whose aim was to build greater bridges between the west and the muslim world, what a disappointment.

Don’t get me wrong, honour killings happen in other cultures and religions, as bad as that is, but not nearly to the extent you see here.

Anyways, Islam does not condone honour killings, therefore they are unislamic. I think this is a cultural thing Keithz.

I find it tragic and pure evil that somebody would put a political ideal, or cultural honour above the love of one’s child, or sister…to me…this is true evil.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

Oh….BTW…I personally knew a Pakistani girl, born in Canada, parents immigrated here almost 30 years ago, parents too harsh and restrictive, leaving this girl feeling unloved, repressed and like a caged animal, with no regards to her need to be human. Anyways,…she shacked up with a clean cut educated Punjabi Sikh who treated her like a princess and family threatened to kill her. She went off and got married anyway and now family disowns her and she is dead to them, either way. Her mother still talks to her, but quietly went along with everything probably because of fear of angering the males in the family.

Posted by G-W | Report as abusive

what’s up with Reuter’s site…..does not allow comments to be uploaded

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive

Keith/G-W:

@this question arises why “Pakistan” has special problem with all religion-related issues relative to other Muslims.

–There is a saying in Punjabi which if roughly translated means “new Mullah is more radical”. By extending its scope, it means the new converts (all religions—not just Islam) are desperate to prove their religious loyalty or follow the book by the letter. It also is true for a new nation like Pakistan, which ideologically was built on religious grounds.

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive

activating

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive

watch Dr. Zaik Naik, an Indian Muslim (not a representative of Indian Muslims), explaining Non-Muslims in Muslims countries qn (see utube above).He is banned entry in UK (see the linkabove).

Posted by RajeevK | Report as abusive

USamahmed had the same opinions as zakir Naik. That explains why Pakistanis like him think it’s okay to kill Ahmadis.

It’s a fascistic, supremacist ideology not too far from the Nazi state of mind. Substitute race for religion and they are the same.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

I am starting to see the treatment of Ahmadis in Pakistan less in a fascistic light and as more of an apartheid. Like Apartheid era South Africa, Pakistan has a legal framework that justifies de jure second class status for Ahmadis. What makes this poignant is that it goes above and beyond the de facto second class status accorded to all other minority groups.

If you really look at it, there are some real striking similarities between how South Africa delegitimizes Blacks and how Pakistan is doing the same to the Ahmadis.

Posted by kEiThZ | Report as abusive

okey…..from your column i think you wanna say that Ahmadis are the only people under attack in Pakistan and portraying yourself the only victims…..common, you are doing more than a good job for promoting your cause and express your anger but may be grinding everyone in the process!!!

My friend all the country is under attack. Other mosques and shrines are under attack also. Pakistanis are dying everywhere even when in waziristan or tribal areas. No one is raising his voice when a pakistani is killed there.

You are privileged enough to express ur anger and raise your voice freely from Pakistan but not some other people, whose lives are just like cattle and one could slaughter them any time.

So stop whining, its a time to stand together if you are a Pakistani. Talk about unity at this critical time. Dont bring religion into it as every country has its laws and constitution. so lets see further.

I strongly condemn the brutal attack on your mosques and also every attack on innocent human beings even if its the drone attacks.

Posted by fundamentalyst | Report as abusive

Allama Iqbal very rightly in his work Jawab-e-Shikwa:-

Quote
“Munfait ek hai is qaum ki, nuqsaan bhi ek,
Ek hi sab ka nabi, din bhi, imaan bhi ek,

Harm-e-paak bhi, Allah bhi, Quran bhi ek,
Kuchh bari baat thi hote jo musalmaan bhi ek”
Unquote

Translation:

Common to the race entire is their gain or loss,
Common is their faith and creed, common too the Rasul(Prophet) of God;

One Kaaba, one Allah, and one Quran inspire their heart,
Why can’t the Muslims then behave like a single lot?

The above is self explanatory…

Posted by MTKhan | Report as abusive